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Spielberg's MUNICH film has begun shooting! Great Times article about the film has hit as well!

Ahoy, squirts! Quint here. I am terribly excited to see how Spielberg's film about the MUNICH terrorist attack in the '70s turns out. It just started filming a day ago in Malta, but the overall story Spielberg wanted to tell was still a mystery to me. Now the New York Times has a fantastic article on what the director wants to do and who he is surrounding himself with in order to make it as accurate and impactful as possible. I, for one, am really excited about this project and can't wait to see it! I have the Times article below, but you can also click here to go to the New York Times website!!!

July 1, 2005

Next: Spielberg's Biggest Gamble

By DAVID M. HALBFINGER

LOS ANGELES, June 30 - On Wednesday, Steven Spielberg's apocalyptic thriller "War of the Worlds" invaded movie theaters worldwide. But the director had already moved on. That night in Malta, Mr. Spielberg quietly began filming the most politically charged project he has yet attempted: the tale of a secret Mossad hit squad ordered to assassinate Palestinian terrorists after the massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics in Munich.

Mr. Spielberg has taken risks before: he said he feared being seen as trivializing the Holocaust when he directed "Schindler's List" in 1993, at a time when he was best known for blockbuster fantasies like "E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark." And with "Saving Private Ryan," he gambled successfully on audiences' tolerance for prolonged and bloody combat scenes.

But with the as-yet-untitled Munich film, already scheduled for Oscar-season release by Universal Pictures on Dec. 23, Mr. Spielberg is tackling material delicate enough that he and his advisers are concerned about adverse effects on matters as weighty as the Israeli-Palestinian peace process if his project is mishandled - or misconstrued in the public mind.

Indeed, the movie's terrain is so packed with potential land mines that, associates say, Mr. Spielberg has sought counsel from advisers ranging from his own rabbi to the former American diplomat Dennis Ross, who in turn has alerted Israeli government officials to the film's thrust. Mr. Spielberg has also shown the script to Mr. Ross's old boss, former President Bill Clinton. Mr. Clinton's aides said Mr. Spielberg reached out to him first more than a year ago and again as recently as Tuesday. Mr. Spielberg is also being advised by Mike McCurry, Mr. Clinton's White House spokesman, and Allan Mayer, a Hollywood spokesman who specializes in crisis communications.

The film, which is being written by the playwright Tony Kushner - it is his first feature screenplay - begins with the killing of 11 Israeli athletes in Munich. But it focuses on the Israeli retaliation: the assassinations, ordered by Prime Minister Golda Meir, of Palestinians identified by Israeli intelligence as terrorists, including some who were not directly implicated in the Olympic massacre. By highlighting such a morally vexing and endlessly debated chapter in Israeli history - one that introduced the still-controversial Israeli tactic now known as targeted killings - Mr. Spielberg could jeopardize his tremendous stature among Jews both in the United States and in Israel.

He earned that prestige largely for his treatment of the Holocaust in "Schindler's List" and for his philanthropic efforts, through the Shoah Foundation, to preserve testimonies of survivors of the concentration camps. Until now, though, he has been relatively quiet on Middle East politics compared with more vocal American supporters of Israel.

Making matters more complicated, an important source for Mr. Spielberg's narrative is a 1984 book by George Jonas, "Vengeance," based largely on the account of a purported member of the Mossad's assassination team, whose veracity was later widely called into question.

Friends of Mr. Spielberg said he was keenly aware that admirers of his Holocaust work could misunderstand his new film and regard it as hurtful to Israel. And they noted that he had never before courted controversy so openly. "A lot of people around him never thought he'd make the movie," said one associate, who asked not to be identified, in keeping with Mr. Spielberg's preference for secrecy.

Typically, Mr. Spielberg keeps a tight lid on information about coming projects, and he has been especially careful to do so this time. He has revealed that the film will star Eric Bana as the lead Israeli assassin, along with Daniel Craig, Geoffrey Rush, Mathieu Kassovitz, Hanns Zischler and Ciaran Hinds. The director released a short statement simultaneously this week to The New York Times, the Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv and the Arab television network Al Arabiya, but he turned down requests for an interview and declined through a spokesman to answer written questions.

In the statement, Mr. Spielberg called the Munich attack - which was carried out by Black September, an arm of the P.L.O.'s Fatah organization - and the Israeli response "a defining moment in the modern history of the Middle East."

Mr. Spielberg's interest in the question of a civilized nation's proper response to terrorism deepened, aides said, after the 9/11 attacks, as Americans were grappling for the first time with similar issues - for instance, in each new lethal strike on a suspected terrorist leader by a C.I.A. Predator drone aircraft. In Mr. Kushner's script, people who have read it say, the Israeli assassins find themselves struggling to understand how their targets were chosen, whether they belonged on the hit list and, eventually, what, if anything, their killing would accomplish.

"What comes through here is the human dimension," said Mr. Ross, formerly the Middle East envoy for Mr. Clinton, who has advised the filmmakers on the screenplay and helped Mr. Spielberg reach out to officials in the region. "You're contending with an enormously difficult set of challenges when you have to respond to a horrific act of terror. Not to respond sends a signal that actions are rewarded and the perpetrators can get away with it. But you have to take into account that your response may not achieve what you wish to achieve, and that it may have consequences for people in the mission."

Mr. Spielberg's statement indicated that, despite the implications for other conflicts, his movie - to be shot in Malta, Budapest and New York - was aimed squarely at the Israeli-Palestinian divide.

"Viewing Israel's response to Munich through the eyes of the men who were sent to avenge that tragedy adds a human dimension to a horrific episode that we usually think about only in political or military terms," he said. "By experiencing how the implacable resolve of these men to succeed in their mission slowly gave way to troubling doubts about what they were doing, I think we can learn something important about the tragic standoff we find ourselves in today."

That Mr. Spielberg has a daunting task ahead - and the degree to which his film will be scrutinized, interpreted and debated - can be seen in the way a few prominent Israelis responded to the mere mention of doubts on the part of the assassins.

"I don't know how many of them actually had 'troubling doubts' about what they were doing," said Michael B. Oren, the historian and author of "Six Days of War." "It's become a stereotype, the guilt-ridden Mossad hit man. You never see guilt-ridden hit men in any other ethnicity. Somehow it's only the Jews. I don't see Dirty Harry feeling guilt-ridden. It's the flip side of the rationally motivated Palestinian terrorist: you can't have a Jew going to exact vengeance and not feel guilt-ridden about it, and you can't have a Palestinian who's operating out of pure evil - it's got to be the result of some trauma."

And Efraim Halevy, a veteran Mossad agent who headed the organization, Israel's intelligence agency, from 1998 to 2002, warned against reading too much into the misgivings of Israel's hit men.

"I know some of the people who were involved," he said. "Maybe people have doubts. If they have doubts, I think it's to their credit. It's not an easy thing to do. But it doesn't mean it's wrong. I'd be very happy to see the doubts on the other side, the fierce debates going on about whether they should or should not do it."

Yet Mr. Spielberg's advisers say he is studiously avoiding the most glaring potential trap: drawing a moral equivalency between the Palestinian attack and the Israeli retaliation.

While people who have read various versions of the script praised Mr. Kushner, the author of "Angels in America" and "Homebody/Kabul," for humanizing the film's hunted Palestinians and giving a fuller sense of their motivation, they said the terrorists would hold little claim to the audience's sympathies. One scene added by Mr. Kushner, who was commissioned last year to rework an earlier draft by the writer Eric Roth, places an Israeli assassin, posing as a terrorist sympathizer, at a safe house where he listens as Palestinians give voice to their anger but also to their hatred of Jews, two people connected with the film said.

Moreover, Mr. Spielberg is making sure to provide enough historical context to explain what impelled Israel to make killers of its sons, as Golda Meir was said to have lamented at the time. "It's easy to look back at historic events with the benefit of hindsight," he said in his statement. "What's not so easy is to try to see things as they must have looked to people at the time."

Mr. Spielberg's movie will not be the first dramatic telling of this story. In 1986, HBO adapted Mr. Jonas's book as a television movie, "Sword of Gideon," starring Steven Bauer as the lead assassin, "Avner," along with Rod Steiger and Colleen Dewhurst. Mr. Spielberg became interested more recently, after learning that Barry Mendel, the producer of "The Sixth Sense" and several Wes Anderson films, including last year's "Life Aquatic With Steve Zissou," had acquired the feature rights to the book for Universal several years ago.

Anticipating questions about the authenticity of the book's source, Mr. Spielberg has sought to distance the movie from "Vengeance," insisting in his statement that the film is based on multiple sources, "including the recollections of some who participated in the events themselves." But one of them, people involved in the film confirmed, is Juval Aviv, a New York-based security consultant identified years ago as Mr. Jonas's Avner character, whose claims to a career in the Mossad have been disputed by experts on Israeli intelligence. Mr. Aviv did not respond to phone and e-mail messages.

Mr. Spielberg originally announced that he would begin production last summer of the script by Mr. Roth, the writer of "Forrest Gump" and "The Insider," but hired Mr. Kushner to humanize what he felt was too procedural a thriller in Mr. Roth's telling, people familiar with both scripts said.

In Mr. Roth's script, for instance, the Munich killings dominated the first 15 minutes of the movie. Mr. Spielberg, the readers said, was still weighing how to depict the massacre without minimizing its power, but also without overpowering the audience.


Readers Talkback
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  • July 1, 2005, 4:52 a.m. CST

    well, I had to do it

    by autobahnmessiah

    first!

  • July 1, 2005, 4:53 a.m. CST

    "Mr. Spielberg's advisers say he is studiously avoiding the

    by gobofraggleuk

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

  • July 1, 2005, 5:09 a.m. CST

    Who funds your page gobofraggleuk?

    by Phloton

    Did you know that the Chinese tobacco companies are putting the info out there that smoking is good for you and can cure things like alzheimers. Now I'm not gonna say Israel is totally blameless in all the conflicts, but there has not been one Israeli suicide bomber sent to kill Palestinians. As far as Spielberg's movie goes, I'm sure he'll try to stick a totally unmotivated, over-the-top sentimental scene in there somewhere. It will probably have to do with a hard man crying or something. Perhaps a terrorist asking his wife to tell him that he's a good man.

  • July 1, 2005, 5:34 a.m. CST

    "you can't have a Palestinian who's operating out of pur

    by vikingkitty

    BullSHIT it does. All it has to be is the result of living in a shit culture that has produced nothing for the world, and is a plague upon humanity.

  • July 1, 2005, 5:35 a.m. CST

    Daring project to make

    by andrew coleman

    The content could seriously isolate the man. If done right it could one of the most daring movies ever. Done wrong though and well, uh oh spaghetti-o's

  • July 1, 2005, 5:40 a.m. CST

    Fuck Israel...

    by MrNelson

    It is an occupying democracy and thats a damn shame... And the U.S. are an occupying democracy too... FREE PALESTINE!!!

  • July 1, 2005, 6:01 a.m. CST

    EXPLOITATION

    by Ra Ra Rasputin

    That is all it is, it might be a worthy subject, but watching the News is informative enough, recreating misery is not high on my wish list for film. Beside if you are honest private ryan was exciting because the cinematography and effects were exciting not because it connected with the veterans grief by infact i think i connected more with Kill Bill, what happened to that poor girl on her wedding day was shocking. Samurai swords, the training will it never end. Give the terroists swords and eye patches and a pussy wagon and call the film SPORT KILL.

  • July 1, 2005, 6:09 a.m. CST

    This would make a good William Friedkin movie

    by Drunken Rage

    Think the opening sequence of "Sorcerer." In Spielberg's version there will probably by a happy ending and everyone will have learned a powerful lesson about life and love, just like an Afternoon Special.

  • July 1, 2005, 6:23 a.m. CST

    How can Spielberg go wrong? Ok, key point to remember: Those Pal

    by Triumph poops!

    No two ways about it: how can Spielberg go wrong here? I don't really see any down side to the morality here. The bottom line truth is those fucks killed innocent athletes who were competing in a global sports event designed to showcase peace, and for that they DESERVED to be hunted down and assassinated like the mad, rabid dogs they were. I just hope as the Israeli hit squad took out each one, those buttholes died slowly and painfully in a moment of kharmic payback.

  • July 1, 2005, 6:30 a.m. CST

    But where does Indy 4 come into all of this?

    by F69

    Harrison Ford's not getting any younger.

  • July 1, 2005, 6:36 a.m. CST

    Ok!? Mr. Triumph (no brain-er)

    by MrNelson

    How would you feel, waking up and a guy was sitting in your living room and says: So and who are you? You would shoot the guy right? Israel is an occupying nation. Don't forget!

  • July 1, 2005, 6:39 a.m. CST

    Um, wouldn't the mature adult perspective on this to be that

    by TonyWilson

    Israel and Palestine have both done things they need to be ashamed for. We also need to stop the cycle of revenge and retaliation. Yes this means that one side is going to have to give ground (not literally in this case) and it is probably better for Israel to concede first as it is clearly the power in the region and it is in breach of certain regulations. Anyone on here screaming to fuck the Israelis or fuck the Palestinians is an idiot. No i don't care if it is your opinion or whatever you are being smallminded and living in mindset that will never solve anything only increase the problems. I think Spielberg will show us both sides of the conflict. But at the end of the day it is obvious in this case where the immorality lies. Everyone should check out the documentary released a few years ago (the name momentarily escapes me). And can we please all refrain from stupid comments such as "the palestinians are terrorists" or "Israeli are evil scum" I'd like to think that anyone who actually claims to have an informed opinion on these matters, is clever enough to see both sides!?!

  • July 1, 2005, 6:40 a.m. CST

    Theo Van Gogh?

    by classyfredblassy

    I don't think Speilberg has to worry about upsetting his fellow Jews. After, they will just be mad for awhile, then move on. Last time I checked, Mel Gibson was still with us. Muslims on the other had? Oh boy. If he doesn't make the terrorists who kill friggin athletes at the god damn Olympics (the supposed symbol of international peace and sportsmanship) look sympathetic, I am afraid Steven is in trouble, Just ask Theo Van Gogh. Oh wait, you can't. He had his throat cut by an Islamic Terrorist. For making a film that was critical of Islam's violent side, especially towards women. Nothing like killing someone because you are mad that they said you are violent. That will show him. PS: ZombieSolutions=Goat Jizz Stain.

  • July 1, 2005, 6:48 a.m. CST

    No! TonyWilson

    by MrNelson

    The United - fuckin'n - Nations have ruled on many accounts that ISRAEL is the EVILDOER here and that the Palestinians have a RIGHT to PROTECT themselfes and their land! Officially every man / woman in Israel is a soldier. So blowing up busses is a horrible act but it is a man-against-the-machine act...

  • July 1, 2005, 6:54 a.m. CST

    Mr Nelson. Ok I am not coming down on either side. I just want t

    by TonyWilson

    And I do agree that Palestinians have a right to protect the land and that yes Israel is obviouly the "power". But holding hostage and killing athletes is wrong. Yes they were all soldiers at some point but that doesn't mean they agreed with the government or that they did anything wrong. Also as I said before there has to be a change on both sides or the argument. I do think that Israel is going to have to concede on things first. They are the "machine" as you would say and it is always the responsibility of the powerful to take the first step. Because they have the ability to do it.

  • July 1, 2005, 6:55 a.m. CST

    classyfredblassy

    by MrNelson

    I have worked on set with Theo and we talked. You know what? He was no man of relegions, he was a man of honnesty. So when the U.N. says you are an occupying nation you should hold your breath and leave!

  • July 1, 2005, 7:01 a.m. CST

    TonyWilson

    by MrNelson

    You should be the next american president! Like the name: Tony Wilson =)

  • July 1, 2005, 7:07 a.m. CST

    Hey Hey Mr. Nelson!

    by classyfredblassy

    Mr.Nelson, I think the point is that if you make any criticism about Islamic society, especially the more militant side, you stand a good chance of getting killed. You can come out and talk about all the problems with Israeli and the Jews all you want, and you know something, they won't blow you up. When France passed its law banning all religious headgear, it was the Muslims who threaten to make the "Streets run red with blood". But I am pretty sure I have seen jewish people wearing stuff on their heads before. They didn't threaten to blow stuff up. And you know something, I am sure in some parts Israeli is wrong, but for God's sake, when you have a murderous twit like Arafat (and he also is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Christians in Jordan, and they kicked him out too), instead of some one with the vision of a Martin Luther King, well, you certainly don't help your cause. PS: The only countries in the world that are ruled by stated mandated religion are Islamic. Toodle

  • July 1, 2005, 7:14 a.m. CST

    Classyfredbassy

    by TonyWilson

    Israel has behaved disgustingly towards Palestinians. Sharon is just as much of a murderous twit as Arafat. Theo Van Gogh was killed by a Muslim extremist not a terrorist and yes that is a very important point. It was not all muslims who threatened to make the streets run red, it was a minority. Just like the minority in the US who said we should go and invade every Islamic country and convert the survivors to christianity (im looking at you Coulter you fucking cunt). I just want to get he point accross that there is dangerous deadly fundamentalism on both sides of this. Some of it religious most of it political.

  • ... See the movie "One Day in September", which details the real-life events of the attack on the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics. Then read the book, the first half covers the events in the documentary while the second half covers the retaliation of Israel (undoubtedly some similar material to this planned film) - it wasn't all one way traffic, both sides still took casualities. Also, there was a horrific debacle where Mossad assassinated a Tunisian waiter who had nothing to do with the Olympics massacre in Lillehammer in a case of mistaken identity - and promptly almost all got arrested (an influx of people from the Middle East kind of stood out in Northern Europe). The operation as a whole was not a complete success though they did get most of the people they felt were responsible. Also, if you can get the excellent German production "Todesspiel", it's also worth a look even though not directly related. It brilliantly mixes real-life footage and dramatic recreations that look uncannily like their real life counterparts. It shows the German anti-terrorists units founded after the events in Munich had gotten their act together and stormed a hijacked plane in Mogadishu as well as battling the Red Brigades at the same time. It also features the then head of GSG-9 (their anti-terror organisation) who details the progress made since Munich in fighting terror. He was also in "One Day in September" and was a complete jackass in that film. It would have been nice to say it seems he'd learned from the experience as this film covers events after Munich, unfortunately this film was made first. "Sword of Gideon" is also worth a look. Highly fictionalised but the basic gist of what happened is there. Obviously, when watching these films and reading these books, draw your own conclusions about what you think but they are informative and will help you build some sort of a background as to what happened.

  • July 1, 2005, 7:21 a.m. CST

    Sounds like this film follows the events after the Olympics

    by John-Locke

    The Documentary is great, it's called One Day in September (2000) Directed by Kevin Macdonald (touching the void). It's great, the terrorists could see the stupid German Cops attempting a rescue outside on their TV sets and knew exactly what was going on outside. The Germans didn't have any kind of SWAT/SAS style special police and they fucked it all up big time. Then you have the thing with the terrorists they managed to capture. Basically the PLO Blackmailed the Germans and said that they would exploit the fact that Germany had no Special Police (SWAT) and mysteriously a plane containing the captured terrorists was Hijacked and allowed to fly to the middle east, there was only one armed guard on the plane and is thought to have been a complete set up. I wish Senior Spielbergo was doing a straight dramatisation of that instead of this other stuff. Oh well I don

  • July 1, 2005, 7:22 a.m. CST

    Shan.

    by TonyWilson

    Thanks mate. I was racking my brains to remember the title of the documentary. One Day In September. Everyone should see it.

  • July 1, 2005, 7:26 a.m. CST

    The U.S. will never learn...

    by MrNelson

    =)

  • July 1, 2005, 7:27 a.m. CST

    I'm a hardliner...

    by Kentucky Colonel

    Nuke everybody. EVERYBODY. The entire middle east, Korea, China, France, the Red states, Australia, fuckin' EVERYBODY! Let the survivors duke it out. I am so sick of humanity I wanna sign up with Dr. No or Ras Al Gul. Fuck everybody! This planet needs a human cleansing. Bring on the red weed and Moonraker!!! Nobody's right, everybody's wrong, and I include myself in the line of fire. So go ahead and Nuke Me, baby. I work just 4 blocks from the Pentagon so if you can get me you can get those evil bastards, too. Fuck the World! I wanna get off!

  • July 1, 2005, 7:28 a.m. CST

    But....

    by Kentucky Colonel

    God bless the little children, puppy dogs and redheaded girls. They get a pass...

  • July 1, 2005, 7:30 a.m. CST

    Just redheaded girls? Oh well ok that still leaves Isla Fisher.

    by TonyWilson

  • July 1, 2005, 8:01 a.m. CST

    WOTW

    by Moose23

    Went to see WOTW last night, and I have to say, that it is without doubt the worse film that I have seen this year.... Sorry, but just could not see the point in it at all.... Spielberg couldn't end a film if his life depended on it....

  • July 1, 2005, 8:27 a.m. CST

    Without Trivialising things at all ...

    by Shan

    ... in all seriousness "One Day in September", read the book and see the film. Glad I could help TonyWilson.

  • July 1, 2005, 8:36 a.m. CST

    Here's the fucking joke about the Palestinians and their sui

    by Triumph poops!

    Plain and simple: The UN has long since FORMALLY RECOGNIZED Israel as a bona fide country and as having a right to exist and protect itself. That's it. End of story. Arab nations hating Israel and trying to undermine it or outright destroy it can go pound sand up their ass -- and, no, before anyone says it, I'm not Jewish or Israeli myself. I'm born and bred American, Roman Catholic, with absolutely no ties at all to Israel. To me, Israel is a recognized nation and that's the end of that...which brings us to the Palestinians in particular and this whole groan inducing mentality of "Boo hoo hoo! Isn't it sad that we don't have our own country. Whoa is us" attitude that exists in the Arab world. Which begs the simple question: Fine, you want a homeland. So WHY THE FUCK DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE SAME SPOT AS ISRAEL? Hey, numbnuts! Someone's ALREADY living there! Seriously, for all the harping about their "Arab brothers", when was the last time you heard ANY Arab country in the Middle East saying "Hey, they're our brothers. We'll give up some of OUR land to let them establish a homeland." You never hear neighboring joint Arab nations getting together and saying "Hey, let's pool our borders and slice off some land to give them a place of their own." No, never any of that. What DO you hear again and again and again like a broken record? Oh, that's right -- all these morons tapping their chins and saying "Hmm, where can we put them? Where can we put them? Hey, I got it! Let's put 'em RIGHT WHERE ISRAEL IS NOW." Boy, really convenient how the Jewish and Christian hating Arabs came up with THAT brainiac plan! I mean, seriously, what a fucking crock.

  • July 1, 2005, 8:36 a.m. CST

    As for the rest ...

    by Shan

    only redheaded girls? You do realise that leaves a lot of hosts from different countries versions of the gameshow "The Weakest Link". Scary, scary stuff. As for Spielberg ending films ... well I admit he ended "Duel" well. The truck did NOT explode which is much like real life and vehicular crashes, so I was grateful for that. Jaws ... well the tank just sitting there in the shark's mouth for so long looked a bit ridiculous, it either should have fallen out or maybe been even been swallowed but the resulting explosion was suitably spectacular and well worth it. Minority Report, the last 20 or so minutes were very dire and totally missed the point of the book. With WotW, the shift from all tripods functioning 100% (until the grenade enema) to sudden meltdown was too sudden in my opinion, there should have at least been one transitional scene. Mind you, he's a multi-billionaire film-maker and I'm not, so what would I know?

  • July 1, 2005, 8:37 a.m. CST

    F69, and after MUNICH comes SS's Abe Lincoln biopic. Sorry

    by JohnnyTremaine

    Because it looks like there won't be one anytime soon. Unless it shows Indy wearing a catheter. INDIANA JONES AND THE ESCAPE FROM THE NURSING HOME. But MUNICH sounds great. I think the holiday movie season is becoming "the new summer".

  • July 1, 2005, 8:45 a.m. CST

    Would like to point out something...

    by chrth

    Israel wouldn't be an occupying country if the Palestinians (and Egypt, and Syria) hadn't attacked them and had their asses whupped.

  • July 1, 2005, 8:47 a.m. CST

    I usually avoid these debates like the plague but ...

    by Shan

    The argument about putting Palestinians where there is a country currently is existing and people are already living there is EXACTLY the same one you could have used to argue as to why should they give any land to the Jewish refugees in 1948 at all when they came to the location of what is now present day Israel? Anyway, it doesn't matter what any of us say or think. Some people on both sides are working towards a compromise solution that will not make everyone completely happy and totally alienate many on both sides - but that type of solution is probably the only one that will work in this situation - and hopefully people will stop dying on both sides over it. Hopefully peace for Iraq too, Afghanistan - and the many other places across the globe one day too.

  • July 1, 2005, 8:47 a.m. CST

    NYC Scenes ???

    by optimist008

    Anybody know what the NYC scenes will entail? Is filming here for one month starting mid-September. Thanks

  • July 1, 2005, 8:49 a.m. CST

    Ohhh goood. Another political talkback!! At least Tony Wilson ma

    by Big_Bubbaloola

    And he likes Isla Fisher. Good man, very good man.

  • July 1, 2005, 8:51 a.m. CST

    People become terrorists for a reason.

    by numberface

    "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

  • July 1, 2005, 8:51 a.m. CST

    Hey Phloton:

    by gobofraggleuk

    Funding of information sources is something which can be fairly questioned, but to ask the question (implying inaccuracy) without following a simple link, is a cheap shot: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/whoweare.html The rest of world is familiar with these stats - if you went to the page you'd see that they're produced by the Red Crescent (that's The Red Cross - for the ignorant amongst you - totally credible and impartial) and the Israeli Government. I love America, but you have to be willing to grasp why so many people see it as in the wrong. The fact that some Americans are happy to stay ignorant about the ways their representatives create enemies doesn't prevent those problems from coming home to roost. Britain and America created that mess by giving away somebody else's country to create Israel. We should've given them Wales. Or Florida. Although, of course, the way the first Israeli settlers killed British soldiers, using terrorism to make us leave, helped to determine that outcome. And for the 'palestinians are all terrorists' crowd: are you seriously saying that if, for example, China invaded the US and forced the entire US population into New Jersey - going on to consistently kill three times as many of you as you managed to kill of them - you wouldn't use whatever guns, bombs or anything else you had to fight back? Even if it was a futile struggle?

  • July 1, 2005, 8:55 a.m. CST

    triumph Poops posted:- So WHY THE FUCK DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE S

    by TonyWilson

    Er are you being stupid on purpose? Palestine was there first. Israel is recognised as a country but so is Palestine and Israel keeps taking more and more land.

  • July 1, 2005, 8:59 a.m. CST

    "Whoa is us?"

    by Wee Willie

    I think you meant "woe". And the thing is, maybe the Arabs should go pound sand up their asses. But, like the U.S., they don't give a shit what the UN says. They want the Israelis out. The Arab world has been consistently fucked up the ass by the West since the end of the Second World War. Granted Arab Oil billionaires love America, but poor, disenfrachised Arabs hate America for supporting the Israeli system. one that treats them to segregation, Apartheid, and genocide. It's easy to dismiss people like this but when you do that, they strap bombs to themselves to get your attention.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:07 a.m. CST

    Holy imaginary history tales, Batman!

    by vikingkitty

    Thanks for that link, gobofraggleuk! The revisionist history of the Six Day War (Israel launched a surprise Pearl Harbor style attack on Egypt? Noooooo) makes for some good reading. As long as we're providing links to totally biased sources, here's another view of the history of the region. http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

  • July 1, 2005, 9:10 a.m. CST

    "People become terrorists for a reason"

    by classyfredblassy

    Yeah, its called bigotry and hatred. Or, the ultimate in hate crime. You asses think it is a fight just between Islam and the Jews? That gets all the press, but is the Islamic holy warriors have it in for all other religions. God, how many parts in the worlds are there "rebel groups" that want to create an Islamic state? Plus, I am pretty sure there were jews in the middle east a couple thousand years before any one heard of Islam. So why should the holy places be more important to the Muslims? Seems to me like they can't get along with any. Just ask the Hindus.....

  • July 1, 2005, 9:11 a.m. CST

    Spielberg's endings

    by JiggamanSpence

    I agree with everyone for the most part, but remember all these bad endings were for his PG-13, fun-for-the-whole-family films. If you think about all his R-rated fare, Private Ryan especially, it does not at all end happily, and this film seems more in the vein of those that one.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:12 a.m. CST

    It's amazing how you can trace all of the crap that's ha

    by Big_Bubbaloola

    The allies felt a sense of guilt not doing more about the holocaust so decided to give the disenfranchised jews a place to go. Was Palestine the only option?? Or was it because that was supposed to be the 'promised land'. It just fuckin annoys me that all the shit happens because some people are power mad and use religion as an excuse to gain it!! Thanks guys, between this TB and the one about Boll's new shitfest, I now gonna be in a bad mood all weekend! ARGHHHHH!!

  • July 1, 2005, 9:12 a.m. CST

    "He had his throat cut by an Islamic Terrorist." Wasn't he s

    by moviemaniac-7

    But I still think this movie could work: a movie in which both sides are on the wrong side...

  • July 1, 2005, 9:16 a.m. CST

    Yeah, a Spielberg movie might just be the one thing that pushes

    by Heywood Jablowme

    I'm sure both sides are going to be watching Spielberg with great interest and taking everything into account with respect to the future of Israeli/Palestinian relations. You know, seeing as how they've been fighting for what, a few thousand years.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:20 a.m. CST

    HIS FIRST SLAPSTICK COMEDY SINCE 1941!!!!

    by ChickenGeorgeVII

    CAN'T WAIT 'TIL I GET TO SEE FRANK McRAE SCREAM "HOLY PALAMINO!"...And thus, is something burning? - - - George, The 7th Chicken!!!!

  • July 1, 2005, 9:21 a.m. CST

    Vikingkitty...

    by gobofraggleuk

    But what are you saying, other than 'Noooo'? A brief, somewhat sensationalised account of history is always going to look clumsy, but even something like Wikipedia starts off with a similar description of the way the Six Day War started - a pre-emptive attack: "Israel's first and most important move was a pre-emptive attack on the Egyptian Air Force..." classyfredblassy: do you have any Muslim friends? I think you should get out more, maybe realise that 'Muslims' aren't the problem any more than 'Americans' are ignorant.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:21 a.m. CST

    vikingkitty

    by TonyWilson

    Did you just claim that the Red Cross/Crescent were making the stuff up? Or that were twisting the truth? Come on don't be daft. I am not taking sides here but it seems like the people who hate Muslims and Palestinians just make stuff up or are not properly informed. There are plenty of links sites out there that telly ou the facts and don't skew the evidence. The trick is you have to go read them with the possibility in your mind that your current views may not be entirely correct

  • July 1, 2005, 9:21 a.m. CST

    If I remember correctly, moviemaniac-7

    by vikingkitty

    His throat was cut, and then a letter was pinned to his chest with a knife.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:23 a.m. CST

    Hmmm, TonyWilson

    by HairyNutsack

    There never was a country called Palestine, mkay. There never was a Palestinian government, a Palestinian culture or a Palestinian language. Here's a history lesson for you and for mister Spielberg: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18543. Get your facts straight and stop talking bullshit about poor Arab terrorists not getting a break from these mean Jews. For fuck's sake.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:25 a.m. CST

    I am not taking sides here but it seems like the people who hate

    by TonyWilson

    Before someone calls me on this. That statemenat applies to people only on this particular talkback. Spielberg always raises his game when it comes to non fiction stories so I'll be looking forward to this.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:25 a.m. CST

    Holy Crappa...

    by DinoDeLaurentiis

    ...I'ma stayin' outta this a one.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:26 a.m. CST

    The Red Cross/Crescent actually had NOTHING to do with at bullsh

    by vikingkitty

    Plus, I fully admit to taking sides. That entire region has long been a disaster, long before Israel was even formed. The Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns used by the other Arab countries in an attempt to get sympathy for their cause. You can't reason, negotiate, or deal with people whose sole goal is your destruction. These negotiations are a waste of time, because even if Israel gave up HALF their land, the Arabs will not stop until they push the Jews into the sea.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:27 a.m. CST

    No Palestine

    by TonyWilson

    It wasnt called Palestine. The place was still inhabited by muslims and then Britain and other western powers came in and took it over to assuage the collective guilt about the Holocaust. Oh and if you have been reading these posts I know more support Muslim Terrorst then I do Zionists. Mmkay indeed.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:27 a.m. CST

    I hope he can make it work...

    by gobofraggleuk

    "when casting for Schindlers List.... by RighteousBrother 2005-07-01 05:17:15 Spielberg spoke to Tim Roth and said 'Can you do a german accent?' Tim Roth replied 'Well, from which region?' Spielberg didn't have an answer, that always struck me as funny."..................I love Spielberg as a film maker, but it's things like this, his political views regarding the Middle East, the clumsy way he mentioned his views re. the holocaust as a fair comparison with Cruise's scientological views - I'm not sure he has the sophistication to handle this. It's nothing like Schindler's List or The Color Purple or something historical where one side has been proven right - this is current, and it's unclear - and most people in the world don't hold the same views as Spielberg on it.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:32 a.m. CST

    vikingkitty...

    by gobofraggleuk

    Do you know how to follow a link? Click on the stats re deaths, it will tell you the source. By the way - I came up with that page at short notice purely because it showed the same stats which are used by the BBC and Channel 4 news in the UK - the numbers are the same. I don't have any prior affiliation with it - it's just one place where the Red Crescent numbers are listed alongside those provided by the Israeli Government. i.e. three palestinians killed for each israeli killed since 2000.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:32 a.m. CST

    Really? It's all England's fault

    by Monkey Butler

    The Balfour Declaration promised the Palestinians autonomy, but then they just fucked off (they were scared off by Zionist terrorists) and the Zionists siezed control. But yeah, both sides have done stupid, fucked up things, and there's never gonna be a proper peace in Israel, because it's such a volatile area, which will always lead to people developing and supporting extremist ideas. And for the record, historically, the Palestinians have as much of a claim to Israel/Palestine as the Israelis.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:36 a.m. CST

    Quint should have known better...

    by sith-vol

    I know that Quint prays at the altar of Speilberg, but you just knew this subject matter was going to turn this talkback into a political screamfest. I could give to fudges and a shitsickle about Isreal, or Palastine or any of the other fucked up shit going on right now while I'm logged on here. While I'm here I only care about tearing the ass out of movie ideas that I think are shitty thank you very much. Before spewing political views all over everyone you might want to look where you are. Last time I checked there was an animation of Harry Knowles in the corner looking a lot like Doug Mackinzie not the Prime Minister of Canada. If I want to read this venom spewing crap I'll turn on CNN with the closed captioning on. Sorry....at any rate, I bet Tom Hanks will be in this thing. We all know how much he likes to suck on the Speilbergian cockatoo.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:36 a.m. CST

    Monkey Butler's right

    by gobofraggleuk

    But you have to put some of the blame on those Zionist terrorists - people like Menachem Begin. Everyone wanted England to withdraw because of the inhuman atrocities committed against the Jewish people - they wanted them to call somewhere home. Shame it was someone else's home, and those other people have been treated in a less than humane way ever since.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Ok its a brief history but it is unbiased and shows that both si

    by TonyWilson

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,720353,00.html

  • July 1, 2005, 9:42 a.m. CST

    Munich Olypmpic games

    by templar

    I've been coming to this site for years and I have never once offered a talkback except for now. I love it when misinformed morons start spouting utter "bullishit" like they think they actually know what they're talking about. First of all, this is a movie site and not a political one. If you want to discuss Middle East politics then go to any one of the 1000 sites out there. First of all (you want to have a discussion learn your History first) Israel is not an occupying country but it is what the Palestinian spindoctors want every "IDIOT" out there to believe. To get some things straight. There were Jews living in Israel before 1948. That's a FACT. Not a Jewish or Christian FACT but a "fact". Granted they weren't in the majority but they did work and live in Palestine. Secondly, the Arabs (Palestinian is a recent word that was coined after 1948. A Palestinian is indistinguishable from any other Middle Easter person living outside of Israel eg Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians etc) The British offered the "arabs" a chance to take Palestine for themselves. They DIDN'T WANT IT (FACT). In 1948, the UN gave (with a majority vote and NO the US didn't vote Israel (look it up, its true) The Palestinians weren't pushed out, they left (FACT) Ran more like it. One of the talkbackers said something about how Jordan kicked the Palestinians out, Thats true. WHY because they were trying to take of the Hashmonite Kingdom of Jordan. KIng Hussein sent troops into the camp where the Palestinians were and masaquered the lot. Hence the Name "Black September". Israel has as much right (even more so) than any other country to that land. History (NOT JEWISH, CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM) can DISPUTE THAT. I have the honour of living in South Africa and let me tell you something from Apartheid is in no way the same as what's happening in Israel. It has nothing to do with FORCED SEGREGATION. The PLO has stated more times in their charter (PLEASE LOOK IT UP ON THE INTERENT) that the land of Israel HAS NOT RIGHT TO EXIST. Hell, I was privy enough when in Israel to hear Arafat talking about how the JEWS should pushed into the sea. So before any of you NUMBNUTS start spouting Misinformed BULLSHIT. OPEN UP A BOOK and read the FACTS.

  • July 1, 2005, 9:49 a.m. CST

    Nice work, templar

    by vikingkitty

  • July 1, 2005, 9:55 a.m. CST

    Templar, you rock!

    by classyfredblassy

    Just thought you should know that! And I also find it very funny that Europeans voted Israeli as the number one threat to world peace. Can someone from there tell me the last time Israelis blew up a train or aircraft because they didn't like your "polices"? Seems to me you are just bitter Hitler didn't finish the in job your own house. There are dozens of bigger crimes against humanity going on in the world, in terms of people involved and the viscousness involved. Like in the Sudan. How about Tibet? You can get a DVD filled with hours of video showing Saddam's goons cutting off fingers and throwing people off buildings, while laughing about it. But I guess that is ok because it wasn't a jew doing it. No need to worked up about it, righ

  • July 1, 2005, 9:55 a.m. CST

    Another much more detailed site to look at and decide for yourse

    by TonyWilson

    http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/topic.php?tid=92

  • July 1, 2005, 9:57 a.m. CST

    by rivercb

    if he wants to show what it really means, then why doesn't he show that in order to get to that one guy, they'll destroy 5 homes and kill 10 bystanders. how about an israeli missle being shot at a car in a crowded city street to get one man? all he's doing is making israel sympathetic to amercians post-9/11. they won't see the debate, just a bunch of bad guys who deserve to die. what about the innocent people that they kill? is there an arab in hollywood who would be allowed to do this?

  • July 1, 2005, 9:58 a.m. CST

    classyfredbassy

    by TonyWilson

    I live in europe (well the UK) so can you tell me when or who voted Israel as the number one threat to world peace? I didn't hear anything about it. It wasn't even on the news.

  • July 1, 2005, 10 a.m. CST

    I will give the Mossad credit

    by chrth

    Ever notice that whenever a Palestinian kills a bunch of schoolchildren, Israel turns around and kills some Palestinian official? It's like they know where everybody is at all times.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:06 a.m. CST

    Here you go TonyWilson:

    by classyfredblassy

    http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-11/03/article07.shtml

  • July 1, 2005, 10:13 a.m. CST

    Munich Olympic Games

    by templar

    I must apologise for my spelling and grammer. Its quite late here. To clarify some facts. The UN gave Israel to the Jews (Majority vote. The US however did not vote for Israel,they abstained I think). The British did offer the Arabs, Israel eg the Balfour Declaration. King Hussein of Jordan did slaughter Palestinians because there were rumours that they were planning an overthrow of his kingdom. Hence the name Black September (when it occured) Apartheid has nothing to do with whats happening in Israel. Two different things. Did the white colonists take South Africa from the indiginous people.YES! Though the people living in Southern Africa at the time were in fact immigrants that had come down from North and west Africa.They had filtered through to the South. The true indiginous people of S.Africa were pushed out hundred of years before any white man came. These people were the San, Koi and other groups that most people outside of S.Africa have never even heard of (Americans would call them Bushman). Look up what the PLO charter has to say about Jews. Tell me if its PEACE LOVING. Arafat, on many an occassion had stated that the "jews should be driven out into the sea" to paraphrase. Do Jews not have a right to a land that is historically theirs. Ask any Biblical archaelogist (which I happen to be) at to whether or not Jews have a fundamental right to the land on which they occupy. That's not to say though that Christians do not have a right either or Muslims. They all do but you dont see Christians strapping explosives to their chests and blowing "innocent" woman and children up. I have family who were blown up and they were not combatants, that much I can assure you. I know a lot of you guys don't have to listen to me BUT you know what, get some information first and if you still feel the way you do, then that's your right. Look at both sides before you make any judgements.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:15 a.m. CST

    Spielberg is a moron

    by HairyNutsack

    Why doesn't Spielberg take shots at these 'Palestinians'? They are the ones sending in teenagers and mentally handicapped children to blow themselves and innocent Israeli's up in bars and pizzeria's. They are the ones naming streets and schools after terrorists, they are the ones calling Jews 'pigs and monkeys', they are the ones not allowing Jews on 'Palestinian' land while at the same time demanding passage into Israel, they were the ones celebrating when those twin towers collapsed, they are calling for the destruction of America on national tv, they are the ones praying for their newborns to one day blow themselves up for Allah, they are the ones exactly like the Muslim terrorists that killed kids in Beslan and that hacked off Buddhist heads in Thailand and Hindu heads in Kashmir and Animist heads in Darfur and Christian heads in Iraq, Arab 'Palestinians' were the ones in league with Adolf Hitler and the nazis (google al-Husseini and Arafat), etc. I can go on and on and on giving reasons for morons like Spielberg to make a movie critizing Arab Muslims and 'Palestinians' in particular. He's so interested in WW2 and the holocaust, make a movie about the Muslim SS-divisions. Read that article I linked to in my other post, you might learn something. "The enmity between us and the Jews goes far back in time and is deep rooted. There is no question that war between the two of us is inevitable." - Osama bin Laden. If you seriously think that serving up Israel on a gold platter to the Arab fascists will soothe the Islamic beast you are gravely mistaken. If Israel falls, Europe is next and the US will follow.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:16 a.m. CST

    my suggestion ro resolve the conflict....

    by bigdickmcgee

    Find the $20 billion Arafat stole in foreign aid, and use it to buy a home land for the Palestinians...in say, Luxemburg. It's about the size of Israel. It's full of multi-cultural Eurowimps who I'm sure would accept them with open arms. The problem is they'd probably have to kick back $19 billion to the UN as bribes....

  • July 1, 2005, 10:17 a.m. CST

    Blimey!

    by TonyWilson

    It seems like 59% of europe should just be shouting MAAAT DAAMON. I had not heard about that and it certainly isnt the case in the UK anyway. I do think the situation would be resolved with a lot less animosity and and bloodshed if Israel were to concede on some things whatever has happened previously they are the dominant power now and as such have a responsibility to promote peace. Not that the Palestinians don't either.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:17 a.m. CST

    So... this is the next BORING Spielberg movie, rigth?You know, t

    by Judge Doom

    Like Amistad, The terminal and other crap. After a fantastic movie like WOTW I knew he was going to do the obligatory boring movie...

  • July 1, 2005, 10:22 a.m. CST

    Neturei Karta

    by TonyWilson

    Hmm just wanted to get Templars opinion on these Jews. They have a very different interpretation of what the Torah says about the promised land.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:32 a.m. CST

    "UN gives Native Americans their land back"

    by rivercb

    I'd like to hear that headline someday. btw, there is a lot of references to the hatred of the jewish community coming from the arab world but why doesn't any of those posters acknowledge the racism and hatred that comes from the jewish community? israel is a democracy...but only if you are jewish

  • July 1, 2005, 10:39 a.m. CST

    Another dimension to what Templar is saying:-

    by TonyWilson

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/aug2004/book-a21.shtml

  • July 1, 2005, 10:39 a.m. CST

    If you have nothing to live for, you'll find something to di

    by Psalmolive

    That's why the Palestinians blow themselves up. I don't agree with it- I believe in passive resistance. The Palestinians should just sit in front of tanks. The world will stand for unarmed people being murdered. Also, Israel gets American money. If America stopped funding the Israelis, this conflict would be over. They would come to a peace agreement because both sides would be evenly matched. As it stands now, Israel has far too much arms and money. There are those Israelis who are against the occupation, and view what they are doing to the Palestinians as exactly what the Nazis did to them. While I do not agree with the tenets of Islam as a religion, nor do I agree with the politics and ideologies of Judaism I do believe in human decency and human goodness. But unfortunately, there is no profit in peace.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:44 a.m. CST

    I can solve this easily

    by Fawst

    Humanity is a failure and we all need to burn in nuclear flame. Then the cockroaches can take over. I don't think they can fuck up the world with a crutch as pathetic as religion. "Wah, I don't understand my place, so I'll put my faith in a fairy tale, WAHHHHHHH!!!!" "Your god isn't as good as my god, so I'll blow myself up along with you, WAAAAAAAH!!!!" And didn't Israel "occupy" territory during DEFENSIVE maneuvers when they were being attacked? I think in that case you don't say "Hey, we tried to literally erase you from the map and you took our land, give it back." You just say "Sorry we fucked with you, here's your payment." Such silly bullshit.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Bravo Psalmolive.

    by TonyWilson

    Indeed. However, I think certain people on this site would say you are siding with the "terrorist" palestinians. Because you happen to believe that Israeli's are partially responsible for the situation.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:48 a.m. CST

    Yeah, I was a big supporter of an asteroid hitting the Earth and

    by Psalmolive

    Also, if everybody died, no one would learn their lesson. Also, in my last post, I meant to say "the world will NOT stand for tanks running over unarmed people".

  • July 1, 2005, 10:51 a.m. CST

    OK...I'll allow for more girls in my doomsday plans!

    by Kentucky Colonel

    25% of all girls who rate at least a "6" or better can ride it out in the underground bunkers. Heh-heh...I said "ride it out". "8"'s or better we keep 30% of and "10"'s....fuck them...they've already had a good life. Let them die. And we can do without all the ugly redheads, too. Nellie McKay gets the presidential suite. FTW. Let the insects have their turn as the dominant species...if they don't get along they just eat one another. Not a stragety I would reccommend for the Isreal-Palestine situation.

  • July 1, 2005, 10:52 a.m. CST

    Sorry, that lost post was unfair and out of line

    by Psalmolive

    There are more groups who make this world a horrible place to live in, but it seems like the media only focuses on THOSE THREE. If people would just recognize core human values and morals, and recognize themselves as their own ideological imperative, we would be a much happier and peaceful species. Sorry for contributing to the problem with that last post.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:01 a.m. CST

    Two groups who make the world a terrible place:

    by Kentucky Colonel

    Men & Women. Mainly men. End of story.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:14 a.m. CST

    extremes

    by gobofraggleuk

    A problem with talking about any of this is that if you say Israel has goes too far in killing three palestinians for every israeli who is killed (that IS the FACT: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3694350.stm), people react as though you've said Israel has no right to exist, or that you've swallowed extremist rhetoric. That isn't the case. It's important to realise how many civilians are killed by the Israeli military - and that they were killed using weapons and billions of dollars of aid given by the US - to realise why many people see this as an unequal war against civilians which the US is involved in. Until you realise that, you don't understand your enemy. If you don't understand your enemy, you can't take away his motivation. Of course many will respond 'I don't need to understand, I'll just kill them all' - which isn't too far from an expression of extremism in itself. And ignorance - the kind of ignorance I heard expressed at a dinner party in San Diego where everyone thought Hitler was German.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:18 a.m. CST

    Ugh, I don't get the "America is to blame" mentality

    by Fawst

    Someone please explain to me in simple terms how it is that we make the world worse? Honestly, I understand how shitty it is that I live in "the greatest country in the world" because we took it from the Natives. I get that our connected shores are a direct result of essentially slave immigrants. But what exactly is it that we are doing right now to make the world a horrible place? Keep Iraq out of it. I'm one of those rare folk who were for the war but are against the occupation. Once we found no WMDs and our soldiers stopped soldiering, we should have said "Oops, sorry, we done fucked up and every country who gave us this info apologizes, at least Saddam is gone" and got the fuck out of Dodge. ANYways, look at all the aid this country gives to others. Tsunami? Here, have a shit ton of money. AIDS in Africa? Well, we don't give enough already to a country that doesn't seem to understand the concept of a condom, so let's give more. Maybe that will work. I wonder what would make the world bitch more? Doing what we do now, or doing what Washington said and staying the fuck out of everyone else's business. Considering we stayed out of WWII until Japan attacked us, I'm guessing that either way we'd still be hated. I'm rambling. Anyways, please, someone tell me how our consumer lifestyle (which really does annoy me) that keeps my TV spewing garbage and my dick hard from porn while I eat my super deluxe cheeseburger, hold the onions and pickles, is such a damper on countries where the rulers starve their people and wipe out undesirable groups.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:21 a.m. CST

    some douche said "Israel is a democracy but only if you are jewi

    by bigdickmcgee

    Wrong. Israel has 1.3 million Arab citizens. They are allowed to vote. They are allowed to hold political office. They make up 20% of the Israeli parliament. They have full citizenship rights same as any Jew.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:32 a.m. CST

    Some historical facts

    by Film Whisperer

    Among all the misinformed crap being spewed here ****** The Zionist movement. Beginning in the late 1800's, oppression of Jews in Eastern Europe set off a mass emigration of Jewish refugees. Some Jews formed a movement called Zionism, which sought to make Palestine an independent Jewish nation. The Zionists established farm colonies in Palestine. At the same time, Palestine's Arab population grew rapidly. By 1914, the total population of Palestine stood at 700,000. About 615,000 people were Arabs, and 85,000 were Jews. World War I and the Balfour Declaration. During World War I (1914-1918), the Ottoman Empire joined Germany and Austria-Hungary against the Allies. An Ottoman military government ruled Palestine. The United Kingdom and some of the European Allies planned to divide the Ottoman Empire among themselves after the war. The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 called for part of Palestine to be placed under a joint Allied government. The United Kingdom offered to back Arab demands for postwar independence from the Ottomans in return for Arab support for the Allies. In 1916, some Arabs revolted against the Ottomans in the belief that the United Kingdom would help establish Arab independence in the Middle East. The Arabs later claimed that Palestine was included in the area promised to them, but the British denied this. In 1917, in an attempt to gain Jewish support for its war effort, the United Kingdom issued the Balfour Declaration. The declaration stated the United Kingdom's support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine, without violating the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities. After the war, the League of Nations divided much of the Ottoman Empire into mandated territories (see MANDATED TERRITORY). In 1920, the United Kingdom received a provisional mandate over Palestine, which would extend west and east of the Jordan River. The British were to help the Jews build a national home and promote the creation of self-governing institutions. In 1922, the League declared that the boundary of Palestine would be limited to the area west of the river. The area east of the river, called Transjordan (now Jordan), was made a separate British mandate. The two mandates took effect in 1923. The terms of the Palestine mandate were not clear, and various parties interpreted it differently. Many Zionists believed that the United Kingdom did not do enough to promote a Jewish national home. They especially opposed restrictions set by the British on Jewish immigration and land purchases. The British hoped to establish self-governing institutions, as required by the mandate. But their proposals for such institutions were unacceptable to the Arabs, and so none were created. The Arabs opposed the idea of a Jewish national home. They feared that the British were handing Palestine over to the Zionists by allowing too many Jews to immigrate to Palestine. During this period, a Palestinian Arab national movement first appeared. On several occasions, riots and demonstrations were mounted by the Arabs to protest British policies and Zionist activities. In the early 1930's, over 100,000 Jewish refugees came to Palestine from Nazi Germany and Poland. This development alarmed the Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs organized a general uprising that almost paralyzed Palestine during the late 1930's. In 1939, the British began to drastically limit Jewish immigration and land purchases for the next five years. Any Jewish immigration after that would depend on Arab approval.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:33 a.m. CST

    So, anyone want to talk about movies here on this movie site?

    by sith-vol

    Just thought I'd ask....

  • ... whoever the Grand Imperial Wizard is at the moment for Christians. The extremists who go as far as to kill people in every religion are a small minority thank goodness and since all extremists aren't going to disappear completely anytime soon unfortunately ... I hope they at least stay as small a minority as possible.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:37 a.m. CST

    Yawn to your "historical facts", you omit a boatload......Israel

    by bigdickmcgee

    The Jews received less than 10% of the land and 0% of the oil and gas. The Arabs got more than 90% of the land and 100% of the oil and gas. You also forgot to mention that Arabs staged massive pogroms in the 20s and 30s and murdered hundreds of Jews.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Fawst

    by Film Whisperer

    I wouldn't call our blind support for a dictatorship like Saudi Arabia which tortures and executes its own citizens and keeps 90% of the wealth in one family, exactly a high point on our resume. Not to mention our continued presence there 15 years after the Gulf War, which is what really prompted Bin Laden to lose his mind in the first place. And I don't think arguments like "keep Iraq out of it" will fly: Its a freaking war!!! Actually, its Vietnam 2. Speaking of which, our support for a failing, unpopular government in Vietnam didn't help our image. Nor did the fact that Reagan, Bush I, and Donald Rumsfeld were the ones who supported Saddam with the WMDs back during the Iran/Iraq War help. Or seling arms for hostages. Oh yeah...our leaders have always gotten it right.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:40 a.m. CST

    by the way, the British are responsible for the Middle eastern c

    by bigdickmcgee

    The way they divided the land was based purely on self-interest and rule. They created all these fake countries full of people who have nothing in common and who hate each other.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:40 a.m. CST

    bigdickmcgee

    by Film Whisperer

    Actually, maybe we should just fiind the missing 8.8 billion that was earmarked for Iraq rebuilding and the troops. That would probably go a long way to helping end the insurgency there; at least, it would do more good there than paying off the new island for Dick Cheney's Haliburton buddies.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:41 a.m. CST

    There will be some movie talk but ...

    by Shan

    ... given the nature and historical background of this particular project, having these discussions about the politics behind it all are inevitable. As for this film itself, it's inevitable some people will hate it for merely existing no matter how Stephen Spielberg does it.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:42 a.m. CST

    the world will NOT stand for tanks running over unarmed people".

    by classyfredblassy

    Hey China got away with it!!!

  • July 1, 2005, 11:43 a.m. CST

    at least Haliburton builds something with the money...besides su

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 11:44 a.m. CST

    Osama Bin Laden is no more a spokesman for all Muslims than

    by classyfredblassy

    Dick Head, 68% of muslims rate Osma as the "world leader: the most admire. 68%! Lets see how the Grand Wizard rates with Christians.... owned.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:46 a.m. CST

    "Osama" is now the most popular name for newborn baby boys.....i

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 11:47 a.m. CST

    Classyfredbassy, you are going to need to back that up with fact

    by TonyWilson

    I'm not disputing. But you need a link or something for that statement.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:52 a.m. CST

    So ...

    by Shan

    Someone did a poll of 1 billion Muslims in the world did they? A free and fair rigorously scrutinised poll that stands up to scientific method? 68% of whom exactly? I put that one in the same basket as "A majority of people think George W Bush is stupid" or "a majority of people think the Republican Party is Evil" and so on. The bin.

  • July 1, 2005, 11:58 a.m. CST

    Dex, you are one Jew-hating nutcase...

    by bigdickmcgee

    The jews control the banks? I thought that shit went out with the Nazis. Who the fuck are you, besides a crazy anti-Semitic piece of dogshit? Do you really believe that Jews have more money and influence than Arabs, who control 70% of the world's oil? And have $10 trillion in petrodollars? The Jews do not "control" the industries you sighted. Non-Jews make up 90% of bankers, etc. But the Jews are very successful, unlike hatemonger losers like you.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:01 p.m. CST

    P.S

    by Shan

    A majority of Iraqis support the US intervention so they say and I'm inclined to believe that given the number of people who sign up for the security forces in spite of the numbers who are killed. I presume it's the same for Afghanistan because it's relatively quiet compared to how foreign forces have experienced it in the past (not well). If 68% of the Muslim population in both of those countries agreed with that statement, the situation for US troops on the ground could only be worse for them than it already is, surely? Now there is a good website at www.pigstye.net/iraq - which offers a biography on each of the soldiers killed in Iraq and let's not forget there are people and lives behind everyone who dies while we rant at each other OK? This equally goes for all the civilians in all of these countries as well. I originate from Sri Lanka and 60,000 plus of our citizens have been killed in a conflict not unlike what is going on in Iraq over at least 22 years. There been a ceasefire for the last few years but nobody sane wants a war if there's a way around it.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:02 p.m. CST

    Sorry, John Lennon was not a Nazi Jewbaiter...

    by bigdickmcgee

    Quoting him in an anti-semitic rant shows you for the twisted fuck you are.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:06 p.m. CST

    bigdickmcgee

    by Film Whisperer

    Yeah, Haliburton execs took that 8.8 billion and BUILT new yachts and homes in the Hamptons for themselves. Not to mention all the luxury hotels in Kuwait their construction people were staying in while they were spending $1 on a tent for soldiers. You know the slogan, don't you, dick? "Thanks for the billions, sorry about the kids".

  • July 1, 2005, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Guy, I don't have time to contend with liberal Haliburton de

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:09 p.m. CST

    Blah, blah, blah

    by TonyDogs

    Israeli women are gorgeous and they love to have sex....which is why I married one. As for the rest of this bullshit, get your historical perspective from real sites; or better yet, books written by reputable authors. There were Jews in Israel way before anyone else. IfAmericaKnew.org makes it sound like the Jews just arbitrarily picked a spot. Wrong. Anyway, it doesn't matter...Good thing you pricks aint running the show.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:10 p.m. CST

    why c-c-c-can't we all just get along?

    by Bong

    Why c-c-cant we work things out?

  • July 1, 2005, 12:12 p.m. CST

    This is also an important website.

    by Shan

    Faces of the Fallen, it is a list of US casualties, I believe you can find both Iraq and Afghanistan here. http://tinyurl.com/yr4gl

  • July 1, 2005, 12:13 p.m. CST

    No religious or ethnic group control a majority of anything

    by Cod Profundity

    Arabs may have the oil on their land but western nations make alliances with them for the oil allowing alot of the corrupt governments to continue. Saudi Arabia is a fine example of this. Good Gad there are alot of nasty racist people on this site, from both sides of this argument. TonyWilson seems to have got a fair balance but alot of you are just recycling rubbish rhetoric from whichever website supports their view. Go and look at www.israelipalestinianprocon.org for some real unbiased info. Yes Arabs and Palestinians have committed atrocities. Yes Israeli's have committed them and then used there influence and the US's influence to appear the more injured party. It's rubbish to try the "we were here first argument" nomatter who you are arguing for as evidence suggest both have been there in pre old testament times. As for people who cannot see why America gets blamed alot for the worlds ills. I suggest you think about the massive aid they give to Israel which is almost all spent on military hardware (bought from US companies mainly). In the here and now Palestine is the repressed nation where Israel is in control. That is simply not right and there are bound to be terrorists/freedom fighters. Oh yes Haliburon makes things, like faulty equipment given to troops they also make fucking huge profits and engage in illegal deals for contracts from the US military which just happens to seriously effect the troops trying to do their best in Iraq. Goddamn the idiot who said we hsould have just get Saddam and then pissed off. Because that wouldn't have created a breeding ground for more terrorists would it? We are committed there now and we are sticking to the bitter (or happy) end.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:17 p.m. CST

    You will have to search a bit for Afghanistan

    by Shan

    from that link but it's there somewhere. Don't forget to support the troops, especially if your country has people overseas in dangerous situations (anywhere), regardless of whether you agree with why they're there or not.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:17 p.m. CST

    Guy Fawkes re: Saudi Arabia

    by Fawst

    Good point. But there are far greater crimes against humanity than that. That's why I don't get why we're so hated. We supposedly deserved 9/11. WHY? I guess I have to go look up what the fuck we're doing in Saudi Arabia if that's even the case, I'm pretty ignorant to that whole mess. As for keeping Iraq out of it, what I meant was that I already understand that point. But even that logic escapes me. I find it hysterical that all the psycho liberals (not all liberals, just the psycho ones... I'm engaged to a pretty sane one myself) bitch up a storm that Bush lied to us about WMD in Iraq, yet their poster-boy golden child Clinton even said he had them. Anyways, I still don't understand how we're so bad when we do so much good for the world. We aren't sending our kids out to blow themselves up and take out civilians. We just sent them to BE blown up so Iraqis have schools and better sanitation services. There's a fair fucking trade. My fiancee's cousin had to be blown up in a rocket attack last month in Afghanistan for what? For people to have a better life. Hooray. Let me go shine my evil American horns with my forked devil's tongue cuz I'm so fucking wicked. When the hell are we going to do some hardcore deep space exploring and get off this god damn rock? Palestine wants Israel? Let them have the fucking planet, I want off!

  • July 1, 2005, 12:18 p.m. CST

    Typical right winger

    by Film Whisperer

    When confronted with facts,you run away and hope someone else does your fighting for you. BTW, these are established facts, not some "delusion".

  • July 1, 2005, 12:18 p.m. CST

    My view is, that failing to exterminate the Jews, the Europeans

    by bigdickmcgee

    You've learned nothing and you haven't changed.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:20 p.m. CST

    Saudi Arabia

    by chrth

    Didn't we remove our troops from Saudi Arabia?

  • July 1, 2005, 12:20 p.m. CST

    Guy, you're a typical Liberal douche...your Haliburton rants

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:22 p.m. CST

    bigdickmcgee

    by Cod Profundity

    You are making yourself sound stupid. Your view about europe is just absolutley wrong. Do you really think America didn't know what Hitler was doing in the 1940's??? They did there are declassified files proving this. America was just as happy to let jews die as most European governments.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:22 p.m. CST

    fawst

    by Film Whisperer

    Congratulations on being engaged to a liberal girl. I'm sure she's hot and not at all like those dried out prunes like Ann Coulter that the conservatives have. As for Clinton, he wasn't president and wasn't looking at the surveillance and manipulating the intelligence. So while its logical to assume Saddam had WMDs (hell, we sold it to him), it was criminal to manipulate the information to fit your desires (as the Downing Street Memo pretty much states the Bushies wanted to do). And as Clinton himself said long ago, Saddam's not the big threat. North Korea is a bigger one because they have the nukes and are more than willing to sell them to terrorists. When're we going into North Korea and Iran? All you right wingers ready to sacrifice your child for another war? Go to Goarmy.com and sign up!!!

  • July 1, 2005, 12:23 p.m. CST

    Why didn't Spielberg start production on Indy IV rather than

    by Forestal

    Ford will be 65 by the time they start filming. I'm guessing he'll want to make that Honest Abe movie before Indy IV too!

  • July 1, 2005, 12:24 p.m. CST

    bigdick

    by Film Whisperer

    Cant' take the heat of the truth, huh? So I guess that's why you resort to name calling. Typical right winger.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:24 p.m. CST

    The Haliburton rants are true! What part of that don't you u

    by Cod Profundity

    It was reported everywhere including the notoriously right wing US networks. Yes that's right I said our networks are right wing. Im just waiting for some idiot to try and say US media is liberal. Ha that shit is so funny it hurts. My advice to anyone who thinks that si to go abroad and watch some T.V news

  • July 1, 2005, 12:25 p.m. CST

    why do you guys obsess over Palestinians...

    by bigdickmcgee

    And profoundly ignore all the oppression that Arabs visit on their own people? If you're gonna ponitificate about Palestianin rights, shouldn't you also demand rights for Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans? Why not support democratic reform all across the Arab world, so that Arabs can be free like Europeans, live on constitutional democracies where their rights are protected from their own gov'ts? Oh, I forgot. There's no Jewbating angle on that.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:27 p.m. CST

    Haliburton=ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:29 p.m. CST

    So when someone mentions the Truth that doesn't sit well wit

    by Cod Profundity

    How wonderfully mature of you. You are really making repubLIEcan assholes like you look good.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:31 p.m. CST

    I'll say this for the last time...

    by bigdickmcgee

    NOBODY gives a shit about Haliburton. Only Liberals. Nobody cares. Haliburton tried to stiff the gov't, now they're paying back the money. That's it. No one fucking cares except you.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:33 p.m. CST

    And of course the troops in Iraq put in danger by shoddy equipme

    by Cod Profundity

    Yeh they really don't matter do they? Bigdick why don't you go to war with some Haliburton equipment instead of trying to play a fucking massive scandal down

  • July 1, 2005, 12:33 p.m. CST

    you guys are the reason Republicans keep winning elections...

    by bigdickmcgee

    You piss off so many voters with your liberal idiocy, that a guy like Bush gets re-elected. You know who re-elected him? You did.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:33 p.m. CST

    Clinton said NK was the bigger threat?

    by Fawst

    That's a riot, considering he's the reason they HAVE nukes... I mean, he DID give them the tech to have nuclear power plants and such, did he not? Go figure... we invade Iraq to find WMD that we sold him to defend himself from Iran and now they both hate us. Clinton hooks up NK with nuke shit, and now they have a twitchy finger on the button so to speak. Everyone sucks.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:35 p.m. CST

    you guys could turn a forum on nuclear physics into a tirade abo

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:35 p.m. CST

    hey bigdickmcgee

    by rivercb

    If you call - closing hundreds of roads, diverting their water supplies, assassinating their political leaders, detaining people for years without trial, routinely using torture, imposing collective punishment in the form of house demolitions and curfews, creating illegal settlements while closing off communities surrounding them, israeli soldiers being seen murdering civilians and going without any significant punishment, and israeli and foreign newspapers being severely pressured from reporting critical news about their government, a true democracy... then we're all living in a world of shit. as old stanley k might say. i'd suggest not only reading one source and maybe taking a look at another perspective and see before you say "They have full citizenship rights same as any Jew." I think the UN, Amnesty International, and most of the rest of the world would tend to disagree with you there.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:35 p.m. CST

    The reason Bush won is that Karl fucking Rove is trying to turn

    by Cod Profundity

  • July 1, 2005, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Christ, what the fuck is wrong with you Israel haters...

    by bigdickmcgee

    Israel pulled out in 1993 of the "occupied" terrirtories and Arafat had a de facto state. He turned it into a terrorist sewer. None of the things you describe would be happening if Muslims would simply stop killing Jew infidels and let them live in peace. You can't stand the fact that Israelis have a right to defend themselves against people who seek not peace, not co-existence, not a two state solution, but the FINAL solution.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Hey DEX, welcome back you Nazi piece of shit!!!!!

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Bloody hell it turned nasty in here.

    by TonyWilson

  • July 1, 2005, 12:42 p.m. CST

    they shot the wrong guy in norway

    by Koola_Norway

    mossad gunned down an innocent norwegian guy during these actions against the terrorists. i wonder if that is going to be a part of this film.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:42 p.m. CST

    bigdickmcgee you are the very fucking definition or repubLIEcan

    by Cod Profundity

    Who has been fucking with your head so much that your entire world view is twisted to think Israel is entirely blameless??

  • July 1, 2005, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Dex, what did you get on Hitler's birthday...ashtray full of

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:44 p.m. CST

    I didn't say they were "blameless" you liberal twat..

    by bigdickmcgee

    I said they were under seige from all sides, and their very existence is threatened.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:46 p.m. CST

    What a bunch of douche bags.

    by Forestal

  • July 1, 2005, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Dex, where are you, you fucking cunt???

    by bigdickmcgee

    Come out and play-aaaay!!!

  • July 1, 2005, 12:49 p.m. CST

    that's right...hide you wet vagina....

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:50 p.m. CST

    Except they are supported by the most powerful country on earth.

    by Cod Profundity

    RepubLIEcan paranoia and propagande strikes again. Try travelling the world a little. And for the record I am not a liberal pussy.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:52 p.m. CST

    for the record, you are a liberal pussy....a boring liberal puss

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:53 p.m. CST

    "Iraeli's pushed out to sea" news at 11

    by rivercb

  • July 1, 2005, 12:53 p.m. CST

    Hahaha

    by Cod Profundity

    You have no fucking clue what I am. I disagree with idiots like you. That makes me sane not liberal.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:55 p.m. CST

    boring. liberal. pussy.

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 12:56 p.m. CST

    What a fantastic comeback bigdick. You truly are an intellectual

    by Cod Profundity

    Oooh he used one word sentences. He has clearly got the better of me. He. Is. A. Twat. See it really isn't that effective.

  • July 1, 2005, 12:58 p.m. CST

    Guys guys, You're glib. LOL just had to get that in there

    by TonyWilson

    Anyway no-one is getting anywhere with this now are they? Flipping heck calm down.

  • July 1, 2005, 1 p.m. CST

    TonyWilson just became Canada

    by rivercb

  • July 1, 2005, 1 p.m. CST

    Fawkes, you haven't stated a fact yet

    by vikingkitty

    This whole line about America giving weapons to Saddam during the Iraq/Iran squirmish is another ongoing fiction that exists only in the mind of people like yourself and your MoveOn.org brothers. All that was provided to the Iraqi's was intelligence; the American government gave no weapons, either chemical or artillery. It is possible that Iraq bought some supplies used to manufacture weapons from private American companies, but that's a big step from the government supplying him with weapons. So maybe you should crawl back to your Helen Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Susan Estrich, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Maxine Waters, or one of the other hairy beasts you people refer to as "women." Or more likely, your gay lover. Conservatives are more than happy with Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, and the like.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:02 p.m. CST

    Nice try, Cod, but you're still a boring liberal pussy.

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:04 p.m. CST

    liberal boring pussy? Pussy boring liberal? Boring pussy liber

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:05 p.m. CST

    where's that goose-stepping cunt I really want?

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:05 p.m. CST

    vikingkitty

    by TonyWilson

    I wasn't going to say anything. The U.s did sell arms to Iraq, along with the UK and France and quite a few other nations. It's not a fiction perpetrated by liberals at all. George Galloway confronted a senate committee with this fact. Donald Rumsfeld was involved in it. The Republican party have admitted this. Oh and Ann Coulter is a fucking sociopath. Really she is actually a risk category to become one. Well she is if you study her views on most things. She is an evil cunt too.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:07 p.m. CST

    was that George "Saddam gave me $10 million" Galloway?

    by bigdickmcgee

    Excellent source.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:07 p.m. CST

    What it all boils down to is...

    by Kentucky Colonel

    "I like bitches, all kind of bitches, to take off my shirt and pull down my britches. If she has big titties I'll squeeze them and hold them while she sucks my dick and licks my scrotum." Thank you, Bushwick Bill!

  • July 1, 2005, 1:09 p.m. CST

    George Galloway is not a credible source to me

    by vikingkitty

    I'll take the word of Casper Weinberg over his any day. Further, the Republican Party has never admitted this. It sounds as if you get 90% of your news from The Guardian, which is not exactly looked favorably upon by conservatives in America.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:20 p.m. CST

    hmm...what side to take

    by oisin5199

    I'm finding myself in a conundrum. Unless I read all this too fast and I missed something, I agree with bigdickmcgee against Dex Luthor's anti-Semitic bullshit. But I'm against him because of his defense of Halliburton and American policies. Fawst, you really need to wake up. Why do people hate us? How about Bush's continued arrogance and disdain towards the rest of the world? That they never admitted they went to Iraq under false pretenses and just decided to change history in true Orwellian fashion? That Bush and Cheney constantly contradict themselves and try to explain their way out of it every time. That their talk about spreading democracy is the biggest bullshit sandwich since Ollie North "just followed orders." When you look at our history and the CIA, you'd see the US has constantly stirred up unrest by undermining democracies, not supporting them. Look at Central America (thanks Ronnie!) Look at Iran, look at Uganda, among other African countries. And things certainly have not changed. We support democracy only when it serves our interests. We don't support terrorist states unless we're in strong financial dealings with them, like Saudi Arabia. The tsunami aid you mention was downright stingy compared to what other countries gave relative to their income, so don't think for a second that Bush is this generous philanthropist. He's an "environmental president" even though he's lessened standards on pollution so the companies can make more money. He wants to drill in Alaska even though it's a stopgap measure at best and won't do a thing to help. Sorry, rant over. As far as film depictions of Middle Easterners, I think Lost has done it the best, even having "terrorists" question what they do, unlike what the article here says.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Central America is democratic - thanks Ronnie!

    by bigdickmcgee

    So they hate us because of Bush. Right. The 9/11 was planned in 1996. I guess they couldn't stand the fact that Bush was governor of Texas. The terrorists were inside the country getting flight training in 1998, when Clinton was President, the most loveable black man of all time. Bin Laden declared war on the west publicly in 1996. But, look, if cause and effect are interchangeable in your world, then yeah it's all Bush's fault. He's generally responsible for the Islamic Jihad which began about 620 AD.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:29 p.m. CST

    Dex, you're back with Randi Newman lyrics, I guess your cop

    by bigdickmcgee

    You are seriously one twisted asshole.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:32 p.m. CST

    seriously, Dex, where did you get your values?

    by bigdickmcgee

    Did your parents teach you that Jews are evil and they secretly rule the world? Did you hear it at the mosque? I'm just curious.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:33 p.m. CST

    Sing it, Dex

    by Kentucky Colonel

    Will there be spandex jackets, one for everyone?

  • July 1, 2005, 1:34 p.m. CST

    Galloway, The Guardian and Iraqi Weapons

    by TonyWilson

    I was not using Galloway as evidence. I mentioned him because even someone like Galloway, who is reviled in the US and in most sections of the British Press. Can safely talk about the US selling weapons to Saddam without fear of anyone accusing him of slander etc etc. The Republicans have not made a statement announcing they sold weapons. But any time one is asked about it they make it clear that back then Saddam was not a threat and he helped the US with those pesky Russians. To clarify also, I think Galloway is a thuggish man who cannot take any form of criticism or aspersions cast on his name. As for the comments about me getting my evidence from the Guardian well yes I do read it but not exclusively. I read most British papers that aren't red tops or daily mail scum. Even The Times owned by Rupert Murdoch concedes that the west sold Saddam weapons in the eighties. Galloway has been cleared of all charges by the way.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:36 p.m. CST

    hey DEX, was your mom ever cheated by a Jewish butcher out of a

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:37 p.m. CST

    Dex, does your dad owe money to some guy named Goldberg?

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:37 p.m. CST

    I don't know which "The Times" you're referring to

    by vikingkitty

    The American government fully admits that, despite being against the law, it is possible some PRIVATE BUSINESSES sold materials for weapons to Iraq in the 80's.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:38 p.m. CST

    Dex, were you kept out of art school because the jew teachers di

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:39 p.m. CST

    Dex, do you have an abnormally large nose that you try to hide w

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:41 p.m. CST

    Dex, was your spec script based on the Protocols rejected by Dre

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:42 p.m. CST

    oisin5199

    by TonyWilson

    I think I'd have to take your side here aswell. Anti Semitism is as dangerous as anything else. It can be alot more insidious and ingrained too. The US has done manner underhand things in South America, look at The Sandinista's and The Contra's in Nicaragua. I also want to say I love the US, not all of it but a heck of a lot of it and it always peeves me that I seem to be putting them down alot on this site. But I think it is more to do with a lack of balance in mainstream US media which causes people to become so diammetrically opposed in their views. More balance creates more grey areas where a middle way can be found and a more satisfying solution to the Worlds ills can be.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:44 p.m. CST

    I never said it was all Bush's fault...

    by oisin5199

    just that he is an iconic representative of a history of false rhetoric, covert policies and arrogance. All of this has been in place for some time, but Bush really encapsulates it all quite well.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:44 p.m. CST

    vikingkitty

    by TonyWilson

    The Times newspaper. That is what it's called. Murdoch owns it. I can so without doubt that the US and the UK and France sold weapons to Saddam. Not Private companies but the Governments.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:44 p.m. CST

    Libs are douche bags, and Tony Wilson is a pussy...

    by Blacket-Man

    Libs may be wrong about Palenstine, but for crying out loud Tony, grab your balls and pick a side. PS: I love every thing about the USA and Israel. Heck I even love the libs in our countries.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:46 p.m. CST

    sword of gideon

    by jula

    wanna get an idea of what spielbergs movie will be like minus the big budget, watch or find the sword of gideon its about the mossad going around the world and killing every one of the animals that planned the murders , great movie

  • "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." -- Tyler Durden

  • July 1, 2005, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Phone__Bone

    by TonyWilson

    Oh come one because I can see both the good and the bad in both sides of this argument, I am a pussy? If other people were willing to see both sides there would be alot more action to tackle problems and a lot less rhetoric. There would actually be COMMUNICATION not mud slinging from the left and the right.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:48 p.m. CST

    thanks for the backup TW

    by oisin5199

    I always appreciate what Stewart says on the Daily Show about centrism - about how both sides have their heads up their asses. I also love America (I'm surprised no one has yelled "love it or leave it") and I don't think I'm being unpatriotic to point out the ways in which it doesn't live up to its high standards of liberty and democracy.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:51 p.m. CST

    the best political commentary on television is on.....drum roll

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 1, 2005, 1:51 p.m. CST

    this will be no boring movie

    by jula

    Man im personally looking forward to this, and I think spielberg didnt want to make this movie because one of the plotters in the olympic murders actually got away, and im glad hes finally gonna make the movie. imagine this movie starts off with the olympics and then we get inside the israeli army ( which is top notch by the way) and then the mossad planning this awesome mission to seek out everyone one of these freaks and kill them.THe whole world had no idea what was going on until the mossad had finished there mission just like the ENTEBBE mission. i cant wait to see this.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:55 p.m. CST

    The Bill Hicks explanation of the left and right wing of America

    by TonyWilson

    "I believe the puppet on the right holds my views" "Well I believe the puppet on the left shares my views" "Wait...wait a minute, there's one guy holding both puppets!" That never fails to crack me up. God I'm probably going to be flamed for liking Bill Hicks now. I don't agree with everything he said. But boy if he didnt know how to cut right through bullshit to get the core of an issue. And make everyone laugh their arses off too.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:57 p.m. CST

    bigdickmcgee/south park

    by TonyWilson

    Now that is something I can agree with you on completely.

  • July 1, 2005, 1:57 p.m. CST

    best Nazi of the day award: DEX LUTHOR!

    by bigdickmcgee

    Biggest asshole of the year award: same! Biggest coward of all time award: you guessed it!

  • Do ytou know why that is? Because fundamentally, you're insane.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:01 p.m. CST

    all right, you guys are getting ridiculous with the back and for

    by oisin5199

    You might as well just stick your tongues out at each other and go "nyyaahhh".

  • July 1, 2005, 2:04 p.m. CST

    i hate hate HATE dana delany

    by DocMcCoy

  • July 1, 2005, 2:05 p.m. CST

    Wake up?

    by Fawst

    Oh, that makes sense, it's BUSH'S fault. Look, the guy is a douche, but it's no more his fault than Clinton's. They hated us then as well. They hated us with Bush Sr. in the house. They hated us when it was Reagan. When it was Carter. And on and on before that. And boofuckinghoo that we didn't give proportionately for the tsunami relief. The fact that they got more than Florida did for their hurricane relief astounds me. Notice that Florida STILL isn't compltely recovered from that? How about we take care of our own? You know, charity starts at home? Fuck the rest of the world. Apparently that's what they think of us.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:07 p.m. CST

    Bill Hicks

    by Kentucky Colonel

    "What I'd really like to see is George Bush's head being kicked down the street like a soccer ball! Really, I'd like to see that myself! Who knew me and Sadam had that much in common! Who'd a-thunk it?"...damnit I miss Bill. You go, Tony Wilson! You aren't perhaps "Stony Tony" from the old 'hood, are yeh?

  • July 1, 2005, 2:11 p.m. CST

    I love everything

    by rajium32

    bigdickmcgee and Dex Luther are great together. They are the same person with different historical information. I think you both should continue your arguments until you both get tired and fall asleep in each others arms. Cheers to anthropology! and naturalism!

  • July 1, 2005, 2:13 p.m. CST

    White Guilt Libs make no sense to me...Oh wait wrong talk back..

    by Blacket-Man

    Tony you live in la la land. One last thought for you. I have always thought that if we are hunting down and killing terrorists and a few innocent casualties do not incur, then we must not be trying hard enough. PS: The UN can lick my brown asshole.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:14 p.m. CST

    a guy peddling anti-semitism and a guy fighting it is the same t

    by bigdickmcgee

    Nice to hear from the planet Liberal, where moral equivalence reigns supreme.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Fawst

    by oisin5199

    try actually reading my post - it might be a bit too subtle for you if you expect knee-jerk responses.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:14 p.m. CST

    I miss Bill a lot. Man can you imagine if he was around right no

    by TonyWilson

    As if he didn't have enough material already. Oh he really was a genius. Sorry mate I'm not Stony Tony, although he sounds like my kind of guy. Do you remember the bi when he's talking about New Kids on the Block**** "So, er , Bill who's your favourite new kid?" "THE FIRST ONE THAT DIES" Oh I'd love to see that sort of passion back in comedy.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:17 p.m. CST

    A question for all Israel's supporters...

    by Aston Lad

    Imagine I told the world that no-one lived in your 10-bedroom house. "I'm a man without a house, and that's a house without an owner". Imagine I then moved into your house, took over 7 bedrooms, and forced you to live under my rules in the remaining three or move out. Imagine you then appealed to the police repeatedly for help, but they refused, even though I lied about the house being empty when i moved in. Imagine you then fought back against me, realising no-one else was going to help, and the police branded you a 'criminal' and terrorist and refused to hear your case until you stopped trying to reclaim your house, while accepting I had a right to beat you and your family in those three bedrooms in the interest of my own safety. Given all of that, would you care that you were being branded a criminal, or would you keep fighting for your rights since that no one else is giving them to you?

  • July 1, 2005, 2:17 p.m. CST

    Dex, you talk like a little punk teenage bitch....you couldn&#39

    by bigdickmcgee

    Have a nice day.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:17 p.m. CST

    White guilt libs.

    by TonyWilson

    Um, what? I don't feel guilty about anything other people have done. Oh and by wanting a better world how does that mean I am living in la la land. I'm sure EVERYONE wants to live in a better world. Are we all living in la la land Phone__Bone?

  • July 1, 2005, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Debbie Gibson & Tiffany

    by Kentucky Colonel

    "Wouldn't you love to see Debbie Gibson & Tiffany locked into a 69? Those two hairless little peach fisher? Oh Debbie...Oh Tiffany...Oh baby what have we been missing. Imagine Jimi Hendrix fucking Debbie Gibson...Stand by the mountain-chop it down with the edge of my hand....Boom...she's dead, we've got a pair of Bloody pantys for George Michal, and Jimi is still fucking jamming, god damnit!" Next year we'll be back with "Let's Hunt and Kill Billy Ray Cyrus"!!!!! See you on the other side Bill!

  • July 1, 2005, 2:23 p.m. CST

    More Bill!

    by TonyWilson

    "Not a time to quit smoking, kids, but I fucking did it. And yes, I miss 'em. It is hard to quit smoking. Every one of them looks real good to me right now. Every cigarette looks like it was made by God, rolled by Jesus, and moistened shut with Claudia Schiffer's pussy right now"

  • July 1, 2005, 2:31 p.m. CST

    From Steven Spielberg and terrorist atrocities to Bill HIcks and

    by TonyWilson

    TonyWilson, out.

  • July 1, 2005, 2:42 p.m. CST

    Me, Too!

    by Kentucky Colonel

    Time to close up shop. And seeing as how I will be in Vegas for a week...SEE YA LATER, FANBOYS! Remember...Love is a Gas!

  • July 1, 2005, 3 p.m. CST

    sith-vol

    by numberface

    Good point. Let's talk movies, gang. Politics is just show business for ugly people.

  • July 1, 2005, 3:23 p.m. CST

    Dennis Millers 2 cents

    by dino_hardbody

    "A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Here we go: The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians." As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course --that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mid east. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one. Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five Million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches,Everyone will be pals.. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding. My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the Numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death. After September 11th our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan."

  • July 1, 2005, 3:27 p.m. CST

    Munich Olympic Games

    by templar

    Tony Wilson I read the article that you suggested. I, on other can probably show you 2 or 3 other articles stating the complete opposite.How channels like the BBC and CNN have constantly been Pro-Palestinian. Conrad Black, the newspaper magnate complained in 2001 (if I'm not mistaken) how biased and anti-Israeli the British media were in their reporting of the 3rd Palestinain uprising. One American newspaper had a picture of a badly beaten Palestinian kid cowering infront of an Israeli police officer. The kid turned out to be a Jewish teenager who'd been ripped from his car and stoned. (Now I remember.The Newspaper was the New York times) They never once retracted the story or the photo. Interesting article though. Nice to see what the other side has to say

  • July 1, 2005, 3:28 p.m. CST

    Okay no more politics. What about the cast?

    by John-Locke

    I think its great, Eric Bana will hopefully prove himself as an actor. Daniel Graig is Brilliant in almost everything I see him in. Road to Perdition, The Jacket, Enduring love etc. And Mathieu Kassovitz!!! lets hope he also gives a hand behind the Camera and gives the film a Guerrilla Film making look like La Haine, Black & White might be interesting, give it a Battle of Algiers look. Just some random thought, try and get this FILM Talkback away from POLITICS, Unless somebody has got anything NEW to add?

  • July 1, 2005, 3:36 p.m. CST

    dino_hardbody

    by John-Locke

    Did Dennis Miller (SNL) really say/write that? I'd be interested in seeing your source.

  • July 1, 2005, 4:02 p.m. CST

    Dennis Miller, hardly an authority. More a kind of jump on the B

    by Cod Profundity

    Here's Miller, sharing his rants in his pre-flip-flop heydays: You know, in the end, it's hard to know what history will make of the second Bush presidency. Will it be regarded as an aberration in the electoral process? A surprisingly capable underdog effort? Maybe just a placeholder in the strange but easy-to-remember Presidential sequence "Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton." Whatever is to be, there's one thing we know: It's time for Daddy's little boy to grow up. George W. Bush's seemingly endless supply of free passes is now officially drier than any of the oil wells he once managed. As much as I'm willing to give Bush a chance, I'm a little nervous about his intellectual capacity. I mean, at least Clinton had his dick to think with. You can say what you want about Bush, but he's going to surround himself with people who are so experienced that they aren't gonna let him eat at the grown-up table for a long time. Most presidential candidates try to pick a running mate who won't outshine them, but who would that be for Bush? Maybe Wilson the volleyball from the movie Cast Away Let's put Bush's cabinet under the microscope, or, as he calls it, "the little-stuff-to-big-stuff thingy." But what I don't understand is how Ashcroft can be so pro-Death Penalty when he lost his last election bid to Mel Carnahan, a dead guy. What's really scary is that most people thought Carnahan won the debates, too. National Security Advisor nominee Condoleezza Rice has often been described as W.'s "foreign policy tutor". Oh, yeah, I love the sound of that. It's nice to know we're signing our nuclear arsenal over to a man who needs after-school help. Don't you think the fact that he needs a tutor ought to be raising more eyebrows than Eminem teaching kindergarten on the planet Vulcan? For Secretary of State, Bush chose Colin Powell. Okay, no complaints there. Nice to see that Bush picked a minority. After all, a minority picked him. I'll take my shots at Dubya, but I actually have high hopes for the next four years. I see George W. Bush working hard to keep the ambitions of big business and the military in check, and ensure that even the lowest job pays a dignified wage. I believe he'll erase the animus that has divided Washington, and bring both sides of the aisle together. I also happen to believe dogs can talk if you touch them in the right spot, and everyone watching me is happy with their body. These quips were all from January 2001. Oh and I think we should all refrain from taking history lessons from the man who starred in Tales from the Crypt Bordello of Blood. Dennis Miller? lmao. Turncoat hypocrite.

  • July 1, 2005, 4:10 p.m. CST

    "If America stopped funding the Israelis, this conflict would be

    by Sicuv Uyall

    Jesus Christ. What kind of fantasy world are you living in?

  • July 1, 2005, 4:13 p.m. CST

    The right of Israel

    by AgentMS2000

    If you think that the Palestinians have the right to the land that now comprises Israel and you base that judgment on history, claiming the Palestinians "were there first" then you are mistaken. Historically, Israelis comprised the vast majority of the land a few thousand years ago before the Jews were forced out of the country by the ruling Roman Empire. However, Jews have recognized the land as being their homeland since it was written into their history. So if you think about the indigenous population of the area, the group of people which have a greater right to being termed "indigenous" are the Hebrews. Furthermore, if you believe that the Palestinians were forced out of Israel once the country was created then you are also mistaken. Once the Israeli state was created they allowed Palestinians that were living there at the time to live with them in the Zionist state, and many of them did for a period of time, roughly 806,000 of them in 1948. However, the vast majority of Palestinians CHOSE to leave the country only because they could not allow themselves to live in a Jewish country. The majority of Palestinians are not willing to compromise and live with Israelis in Israel or to even be given certain land to establish a Palestinian state, such as Gaza, because they refuse to even acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, whether it is in the land that they call Palestine or anywhere else in the world. Instead they developed an intifada which is meant to eradicate the state of Israel. If you don't believe that then look at the statistics: 67.1% of Palestinians rejected the idea of ending the uprising against Israelis in exchange for the Israelis handing over Israel to Palestine. They are out for blood: 69% of Palestinians support suicide bombings against Israelis. Children grow up being taught to kill Israelis. Have you ever seen a Mickey Mouse cartoon in Palestine? In many, if not most of the episodes they adapted for Palestinians, an elated Mickey Mouse is dancing in the blood of dead Jews with hidden messages explaining that sacrificing your life to kill Israelis will bring you happiness and enlightenment. Do you still think they deserve the land? (stats taken from http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-statistics.php).

  • July 1, 2005, 4:23 p.m. CST

    vikingkitty you stupid twat!!!

    by Walls of Samaris

    Sorry guys and girls for the politic shit, but sometimes people astonish me with their ignorance. So, islamic civilization hasn't produced nothing for the world? My ass!! It was the islamic civilization who saved the greek and roman classic culture from the destruction during the middle age. For centuries, it was the islamic civilization the one that created the most advances in arts and science. Physics, chemistry, medicine, philosophy, astronomy, optics, agriculture... Get yourself some brain surgery and thanks the arabs for the anaesthesia. Do you remember Lawrence of Arabia? There was a phrase in the film that said something like "did you know that when London was a pit, the city of Cordoba had public lighting?" That's the point.

  • July 1, 2005, 4:25 p.m. CST

    Dennis Miller

    by NeoGomorra

    lol @ Cod Profundity. You are so right about Dennis Miller. I'm not going to get into the whole Middle East talk but I must say bringing up Mr. Miller is not the best choise. Turncoat hypocrite is right. I'm going to wait till I hear more about how this movie will be done before I make any kind of judgement.

  • July 1, 2005, 4:29 p.m. CST

    back to the film...

    by Colonel_Blimp

    I'm really looking forward to it. Not that I'm not always thrilled when spielberg is out with a new one, but with this more so as it is so controversial. I have no idea how this will turn out, all bets are off. the cast is great, the creative team is great (don't know anything bout the writer though). as the response on this TBs shows, it will at least be an interesting film. probably too controversial for 'berg to win his 3rd oscar, which is kind of a shame, as I was hoping he would soon be holding the record of most best director academy awards (john ford, the third greatest director ever (IMO), had 4). God knows he deserves it. Oh well. As for the Israel/palestine debate, I don't pretend to understand even a fragment of the complexity of the conflict, other than I assume both parts carry blame. Sorry for the poor language, I'm really tired. Have a good night. I love you all. Except for all you assholes out there.

  • July 1, 2005, 4:40 p.m. CST

    Walls of Samaris

    by classyfredblassy

    What have the given to the world in the past 500 years? Suicide bombings and video taped beheading. How wonderful!!!

  • July 1, 2005, 4:49 p.m. CST

    well, the discussion has gotten a bit more civilized...

    by bigdickmcgee

    To the guy who said if America stopped funding Israel, all the problems would end. It did. In 1970. The US refused to sell Israel any weapons. Israel had to design and build their own tanks and jet fighters. Europe refused to sell Israel weapons. In 1973, Egypt and Syria launched a sneak attack. Only then did Alexander Haig authorize an emergency airlift of TOW missiles to Israel to help stop the Arab armor. Your assertion has been proven factually incorrect.

  • July 1, 2005, 5:05 p.m. CST

    My two cents...

    by Junior Frenger

    Wrong is wrong. Terrorists love nothing more than to target non-military then find some thin link to justify it. Athletes being ex-Israeli Military or just plain old American Taxpayers. It's nothing more than cowardice.

  • July 1, 2005, 5:11 p.m. CST

    About this whole nonsense that 'Palestinians' didn't

    by Aston Lad

    ...the Arabic word for 'Palestinian' is the same as the Arabic word for 'Philistine'. The race has existed in the Middle East since Old Testament times, it's just been diluted with the genes of various empires that have settled there since (Roman, Arabian, Ottoman etc). And for everyone who says that the Jews were once a majority but forced out by the Romans, that is correct...but please remember that most modern Israelis are the descendents of European Jews, and unless they can trace their family lineage back 2000 years how do they know if their ancestors were exiles or simply converts? If I changed my religion to Judaism tomorrow I could go and settle down in the West Bank, something Palestinian refugees who lived there just 3 generations ago are denied. How is that fair?

  • July 1, 2005, 5:13 p.m. CST

    Dennis Miller, right on the money

    by zekmoe

    Honestly, he's right on. They are the garbage of the modern world and have no one to blame but themselves. The world is moving forward and they want a hell to live in. I say we give it to them.

  • July 1, 2005, 5:18 p.m. CST

    In the 1700s it was Native Americans. In the 1800s, Australian A

    by Aston Lad

    So instead of repenting that our ancestors did such terrible things while colonising what we now call the Western World, why don't we stop persecuting the Palestinian race and then spare our ancestors something to feel guilty about?

  • July 1, 2005, 5:52 p.m. CST

    The trouble with the Palestinians....

    by Chingachgook

    is that they are nothing without their hatred of Israel. It is how they define themselves as a people. Not through art, medicine, science, architecture or whatever; they are defined by hatred only. Arafat proved that when Israel handed them everything at Camp David and he turned his back. I concede Arafat had personal reasons for having Camp David fail since the conflict made him a millionaire many times over through the graft and larceny he perpetrated on his own people. Nonetheless, the Palestinians will never prevail and should live with what they have - just like the Australian Aborigines, Native American Indians, Central American Indians and just about every other indigenous peoples that the white man has "tamed". Which reminds me - all you pro-Palestinian white people out there should start lobbying to have America returned to the Native American tribes - the rightful claimants to this land. Charity begins at home.

  • July 1, 2005, 6:58 p.m. CST

    A word on filming.

    by TonyWilson

    Needless to say we need handheld for this film. I don't want to see varying shutter speed. I don't want any super sturated flash backs. I don't want ultra sleek camera work al

  • July 1, 2005, 7:03 p.m. CST

    palestinians dont deserve...

    by jula

    anything in my book unless they can learn to be nice

  • July 1, 2005, 7:05 p.m. CST

    sicuv your lost bro

    by jula

    Israel is a country based on morals, arafat founded organizations like hamas and the plo whos sole interest is murder and terrorism so you tell me we shouldnt help a country like israel what are u mad?

  • July 1, 2005, 7:13 p.m. CST

    It's sad that well worded, and thoroughly thought out posts

    by dr_dreadlocks

    Kind of "symbolic" for the way Hollywood is right now. A minority of intelligence, outweighed by retardation.

  • July 1, 2005, 7:42 p.m. CST

    Don't go there, Stevie...

    by Mortron

    He's a classy director and a true humanist but he can't possibly do this movie and get away with it. No matter which angle he chooses for the story he'll be f...d by some group or other - just look at the amount of TalkBack on this thing! A director like Malick or Coppola in his prime might have been able to make it work. Spielberg has made his magnum opus with Schindler's List. Let's leave it at that, shall we. Don't want to add to the political BS in but just want to point out that everybody is to blame about the mess. The Western powers fucked up and both the Israeli and Palestinian side have long since degenerated into religious fanatics who either dream of a mythic homeland that never really existed and want to make it real by any means or worship murderers as heroes and hate their own children so much that their greatest wish is to see them as 'martyrs'. Read Karen Armstrongs 'Holy War' and you'll know what I mean.

  • July 1, 2005, 8:54 p.m. CST

    facts!

    by thinkpad

    hope any of you here read about a kid, a palestinian kid, a girl who is been shot not 1, not 2 and absolutely not three but more than 7 times in close range by israeli soldier. shes already dead and the motherfucker kept on shooting her! if the ordinary soldier can do something horrible like that in the open what do you think will mossad do when mossad operation is absolutely in secrecy? eh? yeah Arafat is a terrorist but what about Ariel Sharon? the only difference between them both is Arafat not really using his army so its considered terrorist and Sharon used his army of terror so it must be legit. But both kill each side, and Israel should be ashame trying to look good killing because why? because theyre a soldier and they got the rights to kill kids! well I say FUCK IT! http://www.answering-christianity.com/pali_torture.htm tell me why? WHY? theyre on kids!!! no wonder Palestinian don't mind killing him/herself to return back all the horrible nightmare they has been through! lost of children in the israeli soldiers hands!

  • July 1, 2005, 9:20 p.m. CST

    Well ...

    by Shan

  • one this is for sure tho..i hope he has better access to facts than the majority of people on AICN....sweet jebus, it's almost embarassing to read some of your posts..here's a clue...not all arabs are terrorists....islam is not a religion of violence, nor more than christianity is at any rate...Jews don't 'control' all the media and such....and for the record, vikingkitty is about as deranged a racist pig as it gets...folks, lets get something straight here...there is NOTHING admirable about hate. and there is a whole lot of hate in this room right now...on both sides of the political divide....time for some of you to grow up, or barring that, educate yourselves a bit if possible...most of you must have access to a public library, please do us all a favour and use it...dont' sit on your asses and watch FOX news and rely on them to tell you what's right and wrong... in the end, there are NO good guys in this story (the middle east) both sides have done their best to dehumanize and destroy...it's a terrible shame...almost as big a shame as trying desperately to cast one side or the other as the villain...to the few of you on here that posted words of tolerance and peace, you have my respect...but to those that did nothing but trash talk about either israelis or palestinians i just want to say 'thank you for idenitfying yourselves as complete idiots'....

  • July 2, 2005, 12:59 a.m. CST

    Munich Olympic Games

    by templar

    To AshtonLad Under the British mandate period from 1918 to 1948, the term "Palestinian" usually referred to "anyone" living in Palestine: "Arab", "Jew" or other. Since the creation of Israel and the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, this usage of the term has practically ceased. While some exclude Israeli Arabs from today's definition of "Palestinians", others (including most Palestinians) do consider them to be Palestinians. Thus the term over the centuries has shifted from Ethnic to Regional and again to an Ethnic description. Until the 19th century, most modern Arab national groups, including Palestine, had no distinct national identities. Finally, the idea of a specifically Palestinian state, however, was at first rejected by most Palestinians; the First Congress of Muslim- Christian Associations (in Jerusalem, February 1919), which met for the purpose of selecting a Palestinian Arab representative for the Paris Peace Conference, adopted the following resolution: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds." They adopted the word Palistinian as they did not have a specific national identity.As I saidd, they are as indistinguishable from ANY other group living within the area. Check your History.

  • July 2, 2005, 1:46 a.m. CST

    RE: Templar...Oh, and Chingachgook...

    by Aston Lad

    Templar: The state of Israel was promoted, on creation, with the philosophy of 'A land without a people and a people without a land'. That was an outright lie. Dozens of thousands of people were made homeless refugees when Arab villages were replaced with Israeli towns. Even if their race and identify IS inseparable from other Arab countries (which it is not) what right did the rest of the world have to say 'you may as well go live over there then'? If you're Californian, for example, could China occupy your state and say "go and live in the other 49 states, you're all Americans anyway"? Or is the fact you've had your property stolen the crime that should be called into question. As for Chingachgook's post, that "the Palestinians will never prevail and should live with what they have - just like the Australian Aborigines, Native American Indians, Central American Indians and just about every other indigenous peoples that the white man has tamed"...gosh, do you really believe what you said there? If so, you belong in colonialist 1850s Europe, not 21st Century civilisation. I've been to the West Bank, and the people there are not exactly living in tents. They have houses, cars, satellite TV just like most countries in the world do. And even if they didn't, being poor does not deny you the basic human right of self-determination.

  • July 2, 2005, 2:03 a.m. CST

    One more thing Chingachook...

    by Aston Lad

    ...and then I promise I'll leave you all to enjoy your weekends :) ...contrary to popular belief, Arafat did not have everything handed to him at Camp David. The so-called 'state' Israel was offering included economic restrictions, i.e. Israeli control over exports and imports, plus control over the water supply, allowing the Jewish settlements to stay in the west bank and gaza while not allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their original lands within Israeli's borders. Not to mention Jerusalem staying under Israel's control (the lack of compromise on this last point is something I blame both sides for). As Nelson Mandela said at the time, "Israel was not thinking of statehood but of seperation". I agree with him.

  • July 2, 2005, 2:51 a.m. CST

    This is the project to watch this year!

    by Proman1984

    Very intriguing. I'm sure Spielberg will handle it well.

  • July 2, 2005, 4:26 a.m. CST

    Aston Lad

    by templar

    Read the talkback by Guy Fawkes "Some historical facts"

  • July 2, 2005, 4:57 a.m. CST

    Speilberg

    by Mallestarion

    Am I the only one that thought Schindlers list sucked and Ryan

  • July 2, 2005, 5:11 a.m. CST

    For the love of God! Why can't he get going on Indy 4 before

    by Lezbo Milk

    Hell, he can do this Olympic bombing movie anytime he wants. Lets get Indy 4 done for Christ's sake!

  • July 2, 2005, 5:25 a.m. CST

    Ok, now that I've weighed in on the Indy 4 plea, here's

    by Lezbo Milk

    Personally I don't even bother following the rub between the different religious/ethnic groups in that area of the world. I don't follow it because of one reason. The conflict will never be solved You have one (globally speaking) patch of dirt over there that is the origin of the worlds three major religions: Christian, Jewish and Muslim. So let me just clue you in a bit. Until two of those three religions gets wiped out (what's the chances of that?) there will ALWAYS be fighting in this part of the world...alway, for the rest of fucking time.

  • hmmm are you talking about the Arab world??? Sometimes i really feel people should be just quiet when they know N-O-T-H-I-N-G about history. and i wouldn't express it that radically as Lezbo Milk but i don't believe in coexistence of different religions either. There will be always conflicts even if the humanity can manage to have "peace" for thousands of years someday a conflict will always arise. Coexistence of different religions and beliefs is a dream of politicians and idealists which can't be achieved. but hell what do i know...

  • July 2, 2005, 6:08 a.m. CST

    jewish propaganda

    by CuervoJones

    i love Spielberg films, baut this is bullshit

  • July 2, 2005, 6:38 a.m. CST

    Yes I am the real Tony Wilson. I managed the Happy Mondays. I cr

    by TonyWilson

  • July 2, 2005, 6:49 a.m. CST

    Vikingkitty hits the nail on the head

    by TheHappyRampager

    BullSHIT it does. All it has to be is the result of living in a shit culture that has produced nothing for the world, and is a plague upon humanity. ======== I concur totally. There are a huge number of nasty, ruthless, sociopathic people in the world and a hell of a lot of Palestinians fit that description. How many Palestinians have been brainwashed by their families (particularly their own mothers) and their societies that they must kill and die out of hate? That is evil. I dare anyone to challenge me on that. I dare anyone to claim that the Palestinians are not 'evil' but 'desperate' or some such CRAP. ======== Evil, inhumane people should be nakedly and honestly depicted as such in fictional media, as a way of helping us to recognise and think about how to deal with such people. This attitude that artists have to downplay how evil these people are, that they have to write the 'bad' characters in such a way that the audience can relate to them on some level despite what they do, is dishonest and unhelpful in the extreme. I hope that Spielberg does portray the Palestinian terrorists as callous and depraved murderers, as the society they live in has taught and expected them to be, without flinching, without trying to portray them as having the 'humanity' that their real-life counterparts lacked. Because that would be a shake-up that too many people need very badly.

  • July 2, 2005, 6:55 a.m. CST

    The Happy Rampager

    by TonyWilson

    You have a 3rd year grasp of history and politics. And an 8 year olds view the World. Evil isn't real. Evil is an excuse for things we can't understand. Your comments are equivalent to all the Jew bashing on here. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. And you sir are a big fucking part. Can we please leave all the uneducated, mindless drivel out of this talkback. This film is about real life. Not a comic book.

  • July 2, 2005, 7:08 a.m. CST

    Whatever happened to Annette Haven?

    by Drunken Rage

    Fuck politics.

  • July 2, 2005, 7:40 a.m. CST

    Whatever Happened to Ramdolph Scott?

    by Kentucky Colonel

    Riding that trail alone....

  • July 2, 2005, 1:11 p.m. CST

    Like fucking clockwork...

    by DocPazuzu

    No talkback dealing with any film with even the slightest whiff of the Middle East ever fails to bring out myopic bonehead right-winger vikingkitty and his very confused opposite number: the self-proclaimed Green Party voter and nazi fan, Dex Luthor/Mace Windex (Nope, can't figure that one out either). Reading their posts always brings a fond quote from The Fourth Protocol to my mind: "Some of our more muscular colleagues favor taking you to a cell and going to work on you with a carving knife and a pair of pliers."

  • July 2, 2005, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Blackhawk Down.

    by Shan

    That was a factual book turned into a movie, how well do people think it was translated across into a movie format? Since there is a comparable attempt here documentary/book to dramatic movie, what pitfalls do they need to avoid, what can they learn from the +'s and -'s of Blackhawk Down?

  • July 2, 2005, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Evil is an excuse for things we don't understand

    by TheHappyRampager

    If this is the product of your addled mind, then it's no wonder you write off my post as being '3rd year grasp of whatever'. You are insane, going by what you said and the amount of sense it made. WTF is 'evil is an excuse for things we don't understand' supposed to mean? Who's being excused? Did you mean to say 'evil is a description for things we don't understand'? Understand meaning what, sympathize with, or comprehend? As far as kids being brought up to hate life so much that they want to kill people and themselves, I comprehend it perfectly. I suspect that what you mean by 'understand' is looking for rationalizations for their acts so that you can avoid true understanding. Think you can tell me what is NOT evil about living to hate and die? Think you can tell me how I might be mistaken in believing that to be evil? 'Evil isn't real it's just a comic book outlook' No, evil is very real. Wicked people do wicked things every day, for which they are not apologetic, and which there is no way you could appeal to the goodness of their hearts to not do. Not because they feel they have no choice but because they find it very satisfying. Oh and, people only use condescension when they have nothing to say, just like you don't. By condescending to me, you are telling me that you are full of shit and can't make a convincing argument that holds together to save your life.

  • July 2, 2005, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Looks like the The Happy Rampager got a bit rattled

    by TonyWilson

    Evil is an excuse for things we don't understand. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. We use the word "evil" to describe that which we do not understand. Is that clear enough for you? No, evil does not exist. Sick people exist. Conditions which lead people to commit horrific acts exist. You call Palestinians evil. By the same logic so are the Israeli's who have conscription for every young person. You view the problem in black and white terms. Good and Evil. That is not a well reasoned perspective it is arrogant and ignorant. Palestinian children are not brought up to hate life. If you think that then you are indeed an idiot. Have you ever been to Palestine or Israel? Ever spoken to an Isreali soldier or a Palestinian civilian? I'd be very suprised if you had because you would see both sides of the argument. And not come on to this talkback spouting your ill informed opinions. Like I said before, you are not part of the solution. You are part of the problem. So pat yourself on the back for belonging to the same group as the Palestinian terrorists and the Zionists who don't wish to communicate. Yeah thanks for the constructive and progressive ideas they really make sense.

  • July 2, 2005, 1:48 p.m. CST

    Broad Generalizations

    by HectorTesticulo

    Happy Rampager should be ignored, as his mind is made up, as a Palestinian holocaust probably sounds good to him. With such a person, there is no need to argue.

  • July 2, 2005, 1:58 p.m. CST

    Hector, you are right.

    by TonyWilson

    Very true mate. I hardly ever make personal attacks on these talkbacks. I mean it's a bit fucking sad to do so. I got a little carried away there. Apologies. Can we have a sensible discussion on this?

  • July 2, 2005, 2:01 p.m. CST

    Happy Rampager rules!

    by classyfredblassy

    HectorTesticulo and the rest of the moral equivalent crowd can go take a flying fuck off the planet. It doesn't matter to them what Islamic terrorists do, they will always jump up to support them. Hey they could gut a 10 year-old blind boy, put a bomb in his inards, and then blow him up inside of the pregnancy ward of a hospital, and they would be asking "Why do they do this? We must understand and help them!" Fuck you. But that way of thinking, why don't rush out and defend a bunch of rednecks who drag a man to death under a truck because he is black, or beat a kid to death and tie him to fence because he is gay. Same fucking thing.

  • July 2, 2005, 2:47 p.m. CST

    Mark Twain said...

    by aikimoe

    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." ------ Those of you who believe that one side or the other in the Mid-East conflict has done more or fewer "evil" things should consider reading some books on the subject.

  • July 2, 2005, 2:56 p.m. CST

    Mark Twain also said...

    by classyfredblassy

    My ass hurts, be it not from hemorrhoids, but from sitting on the fence all day. Here is the cover of a good book to read on the subject:http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/si_86_4/pics/42en/2.jpg

  • July 2, 2005, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Tony Wilson rules!

    by oisin5199

    The people in this world who see things in black and white are the most fanatic and the most dangerous. I agree that Happy Rampager and his ilk are taking the same stance as the terrorists. When you want to justify something horrible against another people, you dehumanize and demonize them. "It's okay to slaughter the Natives, they're not really human." "It's okay to slaughter the Arabs/Jews/Americans, etc., because they're evil." Calling something Evil is a simpleton's way out of tough moral decisions.

  • July 2, 2005, 3:49 p.m. CST

    Will it be filmed in real color? Spielberg's obsessed with w

    by Orionsangels

    I hope the new Indy movies are filmed in normal color

  • July 2, 2005, 3:50 p.m. CST

    Happy Rampager and his ilk are taking the same stance as the ter

    by classyfredblassy

    How the fuck is posting a message on bulletin board comparable to blowing up a bunch of innocent women and children at street market? Thank you for proving my point from an earlier posting twit-wit.At least the Netherlands are coming to there senses. They have gone from welcoming in Middle-Eastern muslims to deporting them by the thousands.

  • July 2, 2005, 3:50 p.m. CST

    Actually, nobody cares about Liberals

    by Orionsangels

  • July 2, 2005, 3:54 p.m. CST

    Nah this ain't evil:

    by classyfredblassy

    "An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause. He said 'As long as they did not deliberately kill women and children, and they were killed in the crossfire, that would be okay'."

  • July 2, 2005, 4:02 p.m. CST

    No, it's not evil. There is no such thing as evil in the rea

    by TonyWilson

    People with fucked up values, ideas and beliefs are not evil. They are mislead, brainwashed, confused, ill informed, sociopathic, maniacs, religious or political zealots. Or any number of things. Calling someone evil immediately means you don't to communicate with them. That you would rather kill them and anyone else who agree or follows them in stead of trying to communicate. When will people learn you can't solve this situation with violence and hatred. It's been tried for thousands of years and guess what? It hasn't and doesn't work. Anyone here willing to agree to look for a better solution? Or are you just going to rant on and on about the evils of Arabs or Jews and give extremists on both sides more fuel for the fires?

  • July 2, 2005, 4:10 p.m. CST

    TonyWilson

    by DocPazuzu

    I understand what you're saying and in what context, but to say there's no evil in the world is as na

  • July 2, 2005, 5:33 p.m. CST

    hmm..

    by HillaryLovesMe

    Spielberg's going to consult with such such a diverse set of advisors as Bill Clinton, former Clinton diplomat Dennis Ross, former Clinton spokesman Mike McCurry, and a Hollywood PR man who's probably a Clintonista too. .... Oh, and his own rabbi, who is probably a Democrat. Way to touch all the bases there, Steve-o! You're a paragon of true liberal tolerance!

  • July 2, 2005, 7:41 p.m. CST

    Evil doesn't exist? You people are so fucking lost.

    by meersan

    The only people who think evil doesn't exist are those who live in a fucking suburban dreamland and have therefore never encountered it. I hope for your own sake you continue to live that kind of blessed existence--the rest of us aren't so lucky. If 9.11 wasn't evil I hope you fucktards remember that when it happens again. Some people can't be reasoned with. Go ahead and blame it on their brainfucked culture, the historical context of their fuckhead motivation... just don't try to tell me talking loud enough will make us all friends. End rant, return to your pointless Israeli-Palistinian blatherings now.

  • July 2, 2005, 7:53 p.m. CST

    Evil.

    by TonyWilson

    No evil does not exist. I don't live in a surburban wonderland. I never have. Living in east London has led me into some pretty fucked up situation and to hear about some even more scary, terrifying things. What I think some people need to realise is that "evil" does not refer to psychopaths or terrorists or dictators. I'm not naive to think evil isn't real. Idi Amin, Stalin, Hitler, Mugabe et al. These people arent evil, They are sociopaths, they lack conscience, have a terrible inferiority comples and who knows what other deep seated psychological traums or ilnesses. That does not make them evil. Paedophiles have a personality disorder. That doesn't make them evil either. They are incurable but it does not give us the right to kill them or to just give up trying to learn about them and say they are evil and be done with it. The 9/11 hijackers were not evil. They were people whose moral compass was so far off it wouldn't register. They were mislead, corrupted, used people psycho's even. Evil is a term used nowadays to describe pretty much anything that doesn't sit with our particular morals or values and that is a big mistake. "Judge not lest thee be judged", anyone?

  • July 2, 2005, 8:01 p.m. CST

    Evil doesn't care whether you admit it exists.

    by meersan

    TonyWilson, your objection seems to be that people tar things as evil with too big a brush. I agree that evil is not the flavour of the week. Yet your refusal to classify anything as evil is just as big a mistake. Same error, different direction. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

  • July 2, 2005, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Hmm, I can see your point Meersan

    by TonyWilson

    Maybe I should explain where I am coming from. Ok, take 9/11 for example. The Hijackers wanted to kill people, they wanted to cause panic and chaos and misery. Why did they want to do this? Not for the sake of causing misery and death but because they believed that their actions would go some way to achieving their goals. Their goals are not evil, certainly the reason for so much hate toward the US or the UK or the west is born from our treatment of peoples and lands. And from Bin Laden's ego aswell. But for me to call that evil is to also then to call Bush evil, for his views on abortion or the enviroment or numerous other things that cause damage and death. The closest I can get to beliving in evil is sadism. Causing pain for your own pleasure. But then, even that is explained by psychiatrists as having a a basis in early childhood trauma or other types of abuse. So no, I can't believe in evil as it suggests no basis for someone's actions other than the desire to do evil.

  • And to the morons making blanket statements about Islam and arabs, you're goosestepping to the exact tune you're supposed to.

  • July 2, 2005, 9:25 p.m. CST

    Oh good Lord, darkfalz.

    by TonyWilson

    Have you read anything posted here previously. We are trying to talk sensibly. So we don't want ignorant racist fear mongers like you seem to be. Unless you want to end up in the same group as the other idiots on this talkback.

  • July 2, 2005, 11:38 p.m. CST

    evil exists because we say it does

    by oisin5199

    To bring this back to film for a sec, most actors who play "bad guys" say that they can't play the role as "evil" because even the worst bad guys think they are justified in their actions, no matter how heinous. Even Hitler thought he was justified. I see what TonyWilson is saying because the term is what any person or group applies to the enemy's actions. The most well known use of it in conceptions of the Devil in Christian mythology had to do with naming the enemies of the Church. To Al Quaeda, the USA is evil. To us, they are evil. To the previous talkbacker, I was not comparing the act of posting here with an act of terrorism. What I was saying is the point of view is the same. It's just a way to make it easier to destroy your enemy. If all you're concerned with are questions of "good" and "bad" guys, then you'll probably miss the subtlety of the argument. And I'm not saying we should give the terrorists a pass because they have rough lives. Especially after 9/11, people were searching for meaning and it just became a kneejerk response to say, "they're evil" which saved us from actually understanding the situation and the context it happened in. Understanding does not in any way imply forgiveness or weakness, it implies having intelligence about what your enemy is doing, why he's doing it, and what he's most likely to do next. Which is why our intelligence is so mindbogglingly ignorant, why the groups (CIA, etc.) that deal with terrorists don't think it's important to hire anyone with a knowledge of Arabic, or even any experience with terrorism. (I wish I could remember the interview that stated this). The point is evil is a perception, not an objective reality.

  • July 2, 2005, 11:50 p.m. CST

    I didn't think my point was that radical...but I was tired a

    by Lezbo Milk

    But I'll state it again. The land now known as Israel is the geographical center for the worlds three major religions: Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. That one small area of the world is the origin of 90% of the worlds faith. There will be no peace in this region while all these religions exist. Two of the three will have to fall before peace will be possible. And of course we all know that none of the three above religions are going anywhere, so I chose not to follow or keep myself informed of the pointless, and endless, doomed to be eternal conflict.

  • July 3, 2005, 12:58 a.m. CST

    landoasskissian

    by oisin5199

    Come on, are you really that ignorant? First of all, I wasn't even talking about what's in the Bible - I assume you've read that since JC is your guy. I was talking about popular Christian literature about the devil and Satan and all that, who isn't even a major character in the Bible (check your Bible and you won't see any reference to horns and a tail). Secondly, don't kid yourself. Christianity is just as much a mythology as any other religion. Do you really think that Jesus was the first deity who sacrificed himself for his people or for knowledge? Look at Odin, Dionysus, Osiris, Orpheus - and that's just Western mythology before Christ. Saying something is mythology doesn't mean there's not Truth in it. The association of the term mythology with falseness is a pompous, Eurocentric, rationalist stance. (Our culture is REAL and yours if false.)I'm not even saying JC wasn't a real person - just that the stories around him constitute a mythology. There are plenty of "real" figures in history who have elaborate mythologies woven around them. I'm also not saying that he wasn't divine. I just don't buy into Christian dogma that he's the only one. Now I know these are my beliefs and many, many people believe something differently. I just think that you can't claim to know anything about Western civilization, history and culture, and somehow believe that Christianity exists somehow separate from all that, in a vacuum. Christianity, like any religion, was formed based on the consensus of its leaders and followers. Look at the Council of Nicene in the 4th cent. and how they decided which of the many writings about Christ would make the final cut in the Bible. You did know that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John weren't the only ones that wrote Gospels? And those guys weren't the actual apostles but were using their names? And that theologians have dated most of those 50-100 years after Christ lived, being that the stories were orally passed down first? The writings may be divinely inspired, but they did not just appear from the heavens. They were written by humans and decided upon by humans. So check your own IQ and look into the history of your own religion.

  • July 3, 2005, 1:27 a.m. CST

    Take note folks. Those who have no belief but in self

    by JUSTICE41

    Can never see the truth. Secularists are always making excuses for everything. Abortions are alright, Terrorists bombing innocent men women children and their pet's as well as the infirm and elderly. If your beliefs only extend to the tip of your nose then it is understandable that you can find excuses for others actions no matter how heinous, yet at the same time you securalists always have hatred for anyone and anything faith based or religious. How do you square that? You guys and gals hate Bush because you think he's evil because he's religious yet Muslim terrorists aren't evil because their religious. Huh? I'll tell you what you securalists are, your just standard issue cowards. Your hedonists who want no one judging them or their actions no matter how depraved. Your way of spreading this ideal is to first knock religion(christians and jews only of course) and faith as bad and extreme then you can demonize and dehumanize those people who hold on to their faiths by caling them Rightwing religious nuts. Tony W, I bet you hate Blair because he's a christian don't you. See the true evil in the world isn't the obvious choice, it's you securalists.

  • July 3, 2005, 3:48 a.m. CST

    Well a talk back actually looking like what might be considered

    by beezlebozoclown

    Wow hats off to several of you (especially Tony Wilson) with all the links, opinions with actual reportage to back it up. Usually I skim through these and it's more "Angelina Jolie's tits are so much hotter than Heather Graham's you ass fag motherfucker who feeds on the unborn labia of unborn fetuses (do fetuses have labia?)" and you know the talk back will be for the new Hellsing OAV or something. However I was suprised at my suprise at the hate speech spewing back and forth. I'm from Canada and we don't have free speech. That's the truth. We're allowed to say anything unless it's considered HATE. Even though this is an aicn talk back and I do actively dislike most of those who post in these (Jay and Silent Bob Strikes BAck. Hilarious.), that people can be so hateful and narrow minded on such tragic issues. Wow I've gone completely off course but I mostly wanted to say I've been impressed with this talk back, on one of the most infamous of forums for simple retarded hate rhetoric over film and the people who make them (off topic again). There was a great discussion on the nature and very existence of evil. Sure not new ideas by far. But new here (or at least from what I've seen.) Of course silly solutions get brought up ("They can only be one religion. Wipe the other two(?!) out. [of course I should point out new gods are created and destroyed everyday but I'm crazy like that.]) Anyways this was been a pretty cool talk back in spite of itself. Thanks to some of the links (and the links on those pages) I'm on the road to better understanding of the conflict in the Middle East. Anyways thanks. Oh yeah fuck y'all haters

  • July 3, 2005, 3:57 a.m. CST

    Osin's no Troll

    by beezlebozoclown

    Atheists have a belief system as well. That belief system includes the idea that the Bible is false. Hey you know people think crazy things. Osin saying what he said was the equivalent of a christian coming and saying Jesus was the son of god, really wise for a young kid, disappeared, came back, performed some miracles, got sold out, died. It's a belief system. What Osin said is only the popular atheist belief of today. Read some of the books, see the documentary it's there. Doesn't mean it's true. It just makes more sense.

  • July 3, 2005, 4:20 a.m. CST

    December release?

    by kwisatzhaderach

    Is Spielberg trying to start a How quickly can you make your movie contest? First War of the Worlds now this?! Oh and please Steve, don't ever make Jones IV - it'll be awful.

  • July 3, 2005, 4:53 a.m. CST

    Post to try and see the rest of the posts post

    by Shan

    Computer acting up, trying to see the talkback.

  • July 3, 2005, 5 a.m. CST

    'Judge not lest thee be judged'? I can handle being jud

    by TheHappyRampager

    And if I ever did the sort of things that the Palestinians or other terrorists did, I would expect to be judged. I certainly wouldn't start whining and needling about it. Of course I don't consider these ignorant demands to ignore me as 'judgment'. Boo! I am espousing a viewpoint that you do not agree with! Run away! Run away! ==== "Evil is an excuse for things we don't understand. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. We use the word "evil" to describe that which we do not understand. Is that clear enough for you?" Yes, it's clear that your use of the word 'excuse' makes no sense whatsoever. An 'excuse' for whom exactly? Who is being 'excused' for their evil? Why can't you explain what you mean by your use of the word 'excuse'? You probably should have had the sense to realise that you weren't explaining yourself very well but no, it's much easier to condescend to people and pretend that it's their fault they didn't understand your garbled point. And who's this 'we' that you say uses the word evil to describe what we don't understand? I use it to describe the 'conscience lacking sociopaths' that you have no choice but to admit exist and operate in the world, yet you still assert that that does not make them evil...according to what definition of evil? Oops, you don't have one, because you think evil doesn't exist and so haven't thought about what evil is. Am I right? ==== One benefit of the word evil is that you won't be surprised if they won't ALLOW themselves to be swayed by you and your attempts to 'communicate'. You know, because you're an infidel and scum to them and while you're spending hours and hours trying to talk to them, they're wondering how many blows it would take to sever your head. ==== It's polite to ASK someone about what they understand rather than proclaim that they don't understand so that you can posture as being smarter than them. If you had asked, you might have learned that I understand very well why terrorists cause panic and misery - as a way of imposing their will upon other people, including other Muslims whom the likes of you must think they're fighting 'the Great Satan' for, but in actual fact their fellow Muslims are expendable, and fair game when they act in ways the terrorists don't like, as the efforts to disrupt the Iraq election demonstrate. You definitely need to think about whether the terrorists do it for 'good' reasons, or whether those 'good' reasons are a cover for killing and destroying because they like to, but you won't, because you might reach the conclusion that they enjoy killing and hurting people, which would mean they are evil. ==== ClassyFredBlassy makes a good point in that you'd never extend the same respect to racist murderers and gay-bashers that you do to Jew killers. No, THEY'RE beyond the pale, what they need is to be shunned and ridiculed, certainly not engaged with as if they had a point of view that needed to be understood. The terrible things they do being justification for ignoring them, which is a clear case of double standards. Either you engage with the racists to get them to change their thinking, just as you would with the Palestinians, or else you write off the Palestinians for their crimes just as you would where the racists are concerned. Or if you still think racists are not worth bothering with, you explain why you feel that they're not worth trying to understand...why efforts should not be made to 'reach' them...why they're EVIL as far as you're concerned. And don't try to claim that 'liberals' don't look upon those who don't share their PC outlook as being evil.

  • July 3, 2005, 5:43 a.m. CST

    I'm suprised people think they know so much about me.

    by TonyWilson

    "ClassyFredBlassy makes a good point in that you'd never extend the same respect to racist murderers and gay-bashers that you do to Jew killers." Well yes I would actually. Gay-bahsers, in my view are not evil. They are poorly educated sometimes deluded and often looking for someone to vent their rage on. Same for racist murderers. Heck it has been widely believed for years that alot of racists are looking for someone to blame for their problems. And in case you hadn't figured it out. Alot of terrorists are racist murderers looking for people to blame. Sometimes the people they blame are responsible sometimes they are not.****** You seem to have taken quite a dislike to me. You talk about me being condescending, yet it is you who goes on and on about my lack of intelligence and my motives being suspect. That is pretty fucking condescending right there. All the way through this talkback I have been asking for fair and reasonable debate. You still insist in coming out and personally insulting me, so I'd have to ask why you think that is a particularly effective method in getting your point accross? Is it maybe because you have taken my criticisms of you to heart? As for you continuing to go on and on about me saying evil is an excuse for that which we do not understand. Well no-one else has had such a problem with it.******** "THEY'RE beyond the pale, what they need is to be shunned and ridiculed, certainly not engaged with as if they had a point of view that needed to be understood." Now that really is an ignorant view of life. Shun and ridicule people who commit atrocious acts? Does it not make more sense to try and find out why they did it? In the hope that we take measures to stop others doing it. Saying something is "evil" immediately means you don't believe there are any underlying reasons to those actions. That it was done for "evil's" sake. So you won't ever solve the racism/intolerance because you don't believe there is any other cause for it. Like I posted before you see all of it as black and white and ignore the grey areas. Thereby negating any chance of a solution. I haven't come down on the Palestinian's side or the Israeli's because I think they are both wrong and right on different points. Trying to find a middle ground and compromise is not a sign of weakness or being liberal or a pussy or whatever else you want to think it is. It's called diplomacy.***** Do you really believe I haven't thought about what evil is or wether it exists? I think the fundamental difference between me and Thehappyrampager is that I am not egotistical enough to believe I am always correct. I constantly question and analyze, not only myself but everything. It's the only way to progress.****** You have said we should ridicule and shun racists/bigots well isn't that the same as "Boo! I am espousing a viewpoint that you do not agree with! Run away! Run away!" You have the arrogance to suggest that I do it. When you have just proved that you do it. Bravo on completely contradicting yourself there.

  • July 3, 2005, 6:20 a.m. CST

    Jesus Christ Tony, you just made one HUGE assclown out of yourse

    by TheHappyRampager

    "yet it is you who goes on and on about my lack of intelligence and my motives being suspect. That is pretty fucking condescending right there." No, it isn't, because you're imagining it. I said that you had an 'addled mind' not that you were stupid. You prove what an addled mind you have in your pathetic attempts to wriggle out of the last question I posed, which was that either liberals should try to understand racists - whom they regard as 'evil incarnate', just as they believe the Israelis should engage with the Palestinians, or else they should regard the Palstinians as being beyond the pale, just as they do racists. And what do you do? You take what I said - 'Racists are beyond the pale AS FAR AS LIBERALS ARE CONCERNED' - entirely out of context, misconstrue it to an insane degree, build the biggest collection of straw men you can manage, and think that you can prove something by attacking them. Your whole post is utter rubbish. I suppose you were trying to duck the question of liberal double standards entirely, but some better ways of doing that would have been to quit the TB altogether or just ignore me. Not misconstrue what I said and make a big song and dance about your own misunderstanding of what I said. Really, what made you think you could get away with that? I haven't gone anywhere. I'm right here. Ready and willing to point out just what an ass you are being, and how badly you failed to understand that last question. All that effort and for what? To demonstrate to us all that you can't read at all, and go absolutely mental when calm rational thought would serve you better. Nice going.

  • July 3, 2005, 6:26 a.m. CST

    what's funnier...

    by TheHappyRampager

    ...is that you, Tony, probably read 'you'd never extend the same respect to racist murderers and gay-bashers that you do to Jew killers. No, THEY'RE beyond the pale, what they need is to be shunned and ridiculed, certainly not engaged with as if they had a point of view that needed to be understood' and thought to yourself, "I'll accuse him of 'saying that racists are beyond the pale' DELIBERATELY. And he won't, like, come right back and contradict me and make it clear how foolish what I just did was".

  • July 3, 2005, 6:37 a.m. CST

    Ok, first I am not a liberal so I'm not answering on there b

    by TonyWilson

    'Racists are beyond the pale AS FAR AS LIBERALS ARE CONCERNED' Why did you put that in quotation marks? That isn't a quote from your post. Addled mind/Stupid? I am not going to argue semantics with you. Yes, I do think that liberals need to view the world in less black and white terms. I have been saying that through this entire talkback. Both sides need to stop all the rhetoric and bullshit. I have not said anything different. I see what you might think I have misconstrued. But when I talked about shunning and ridiculing being ignorant I meant both sides do it and it is wrong. Although I can see that isn't very clear. I'm not going absolutely mental at all. Yes liberals have double standards but so do you and so do conservatives. You seem a bit quick to attack me all the time and I honestly don't know why. Ok so my last post needed a bit of clarification, you don't need to jump off the deep end.

  • July 3, 2005, 6:40 a.m. CST

    You have no idea what I thought. You saw a linguistic flaw in my

    by TonyWilson

  • July 3, 2005, 6:50 a.m. CST

    Whoa, you are now making the mistake you just accused me of.

    by TonyWilson

    Go back and read the post from "THEY'RE beyond the pale..." At no point do I say anyone side is ignorant. I say that that view is ignorant who ever holds it. Do you follow it now? This is what I meant by you taking a dilike to me. It seems like you think you have found a major mistake in my post so you go crazy and call me an assclown (how very mature btw).

  • July 3, 2005, 7:18 a.m. CST

    a linguistic flaw? Yeah, sure.

    by TheHappyRampager

    One thing that wasn't made clear...what a self-serving interpretation. I think you meant to say was 'one thing that I misread about TheHappyRampager's post and proceeded to make a lot of ludicrous statements based on my idea that he was speaking for himself'. "Why did you put that in quotation marks? That isn't a quote from your post." Because that was what you were supposed to understand from the wording of my post. It was clear, and I wager that everyone else understood it perfectly...what's your excuse? ==== "At no point do I say anyone side is ignorant." And at no point did I say that what the liberals held against racists et al was their 'ignorance'. I simply said that liberals, despite their disdain for the word 'evil', unquestionably do regard racists and their ilk as being evil and unworthy of attention. In contrast to their opinion of Palestinians and other terrorists who kill people day in, day out, for self-gratification. ==== 'Yes liberals have double standards but so do you' Oh really? And what do I have double standards about, exactly? Please enlighten me. ==== You're on the right track about your mistakes being major ones. But since you have no self-awareness you probably make a lot of major mistakes that no-one has ever pointed out to you. Never fear, The Happy Rampager is here.

  • July 3, 2005, 7:29 a.m. CST

    LOL

    by TonyWilson

    Even when I try and explain my self and admit I made a mistake, you're right there ready to jump down my throat and for what? To make me look stupid although I'm sure you will say I am doing that on my own as that seems to be the only point you're trying to make. ****** "Why did you put that in quotation marks? That isn't a quote from your post." Because that was what you were supposed to understand from the wording of my post. It was clear, and I wager that everyone else understood it perfectly...what's your excuse?" Oh I understand what you were saying, but seeing as you started the habit of pointing out small innacuracies and making a big deal out of it. I thought i'd follow suit. I did not make it clear enough (apparently) that I was taking about both sides but I was. I thought most people would get that. I have been talking about both sides all the way through this TB afterall. Um you have double standards regarding accuracy. The post wasnt entirely for you benefit/amusement. I was talking in broad terms aswell.

  • July 3, 2005, 10:06 a.m. CST

    Peace Process In One Easy Step

    by ZombieSolutions

    all Israel has to do is cease it's occupation of the land it stole, stop arresting and torturing innocent Palestinians and accept the fact that they have to SHARE the land they stole; not murder, torture, rape and kill innocent women and children. the Palestinan rebellion arose due to their abject, brutal oppression at the hands of the Israelis. basicaly: people become terrorists ONLY in extreme circumstances. Israel FORCED the Palestinians to fight back after stealing their land and murdering them. if Spielberg touches upon this key point, then maybe there is hope for this film, adn the future. and that's that.

  • July 3, 2005, 10:21 a.m. CST

    the fact of the matter, for all you ignorant assholes is THIS

    by HypeEndsHere

    Kate Capshaw was redecorating the summer home and found that the mantle above the bedroom fireplace is asymmetrical. She asked Steven to make a movie to win another Oscar to even things out. (her Feng Shui book was very specific about the even number of things.) so, in order to keep things happy around the house, he agreed. but rather than come up with a unique and original script, he decided to watch a few existing documentaries and piece together a timeline of actual events. i think we'll all be relieved come Academy Awards time when Ms. Capshaw's home becomes balanced and all is right with the world.

  • July 3, 2005, 10:26 a.m. CST

    swallowing terrorist propoganda...left-wing Stockholm syndrome..

    by bigdickmcgee

    The "occupation" started in 1967 after the 6 Day War. The Arab terrorist war against Israel began in 1948, when Israel was established. The PLO was formed in 1964 with a mandate to destroy Israel and wipe it off the map, 3 years BEFORE the "occupation". Your assertion that people become terrorists only in extreme circumstances is as big a load of liberal bullshit as I've ever heard. Terrorism is for ideological fanatics who see no value in politics except as propoganda. They want to destroy the world through revolution and rebuild it into a Utopia according to their beliefs with themselves in charge of all power and money by force. I guess Tim McVeigh was just "desperate"? The fact that imbeciles in the west make excuses for terrorists is what makes terrorism such a potent force. It relies on legions of stupid people to give it moral, and therefore political, support. It relies on a moral inversion, where victims become perpetrators and perpetrators become victims. It also relies on the quid pro quo of all fascists, Jewbaiting, which today takes the form of relentless and irrational Israel bashing. The first step to a peace process is for people to stop making excuses for a bunch of fanatical moral degenerates.

  • July 3, 2005, 10:53 a.m. CST

    "They want to destroy the world and rebuild it into a Utopia acc

    by ZombieSolutions

    that's funny. that sounds EXACTLY like what both the Facist Dubya Regime and Israel is doing right now. interesting. thanks for helping prove my point! (btw, it's not Jewbaiting. most Jewish people I know are also opposed to the brutal occupation of Palestine as well.) Btw, how many times can you see footage of Israeli tanks firing on ragged, starving 10 year old kids throwing rocks before you realize this is yet another holocaust? But, of course, they are brownskined Muslims and therefore are "terrorists." They should all kneel to whichever Judeo-Christian mechanized force is killing them by the thousands for merely being born in the wrong place and with the skin. Ironic, isn't it, how the escape from Nazi opression made the opressed turn into Nazis themselves? very, very interesting. i guess in the end it will all work out, though. all occupations fail eventually. all empires fall.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:08 a.m. CST

    Jewbaiters can't hide behind crocodile tears....

    by bigdickmcgee

    So a democratically elected regime is fascist, but Iranian and Saudi funded Islamist movements that seek to turn the Middle East into a taliban style caliphate are your kind of people? Read The Devils by Dostoyevsky. He was talking about you. Let me add one more bumper sticker platitude to your list: all Jewbaiters are evetually found out, all ignorant leftists eventually wind up broke and impotent, their lives full of nothing but irrational rage and hatred.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:41 a.m. CST

    Religion is intellectual dishonesty

    by Psalmolive

    Read "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. Quote: "Given the link between belief and action, it is clear that we can no more tolerate a diversity of beliefs than a diversity of beliefs about epodemiology and basic hygiene. It is time we recognized that all reasonable men and women have a common enemy so near to us and so deceptive, that we keep its counsel even as it threatens to destroy the very possibility of human happiness. Our enemy is nothing other than faith itself."

  • July 3, 2005, 11:45 a.m. CST

    I don't think anyone can remain neutral forever...

    by Roger Thornhill

    Sooner or later you have to choose sides as Michael Caine's character learns in The Quiet American. The question is, which side do you choose?

  • July 3, 2005, 11:51 a.m. CST

    Who said I was atheist?!!

    by oisin5199

    First off, I'm a "troll" who's "here to piss people off"? WTF? I'm not the one who resorted to name calling ("jackass") instead of presenting a clear, reasoned argument. I love the fact that people assume I'm an atheist just because I think religious belief shouldn't have to contradict knowledge about the historical context of a religion, that believing in something means you turn off your intelligence. I have utmost respect for every religion and several of them have enriched my life, Christianity included. I simply rail against Fundamentalist ignorance that completely discounts that religions have a context - that they are created by humans not by God, that they have a history which includes its members debating about what should or should not be included. Early Christianity believed in reincarnation. Did you know that? The Holy Spirit was considered the female part of the Trinity. These beliefs and others have been downplayed or have been determined as heretical. You can still believe that Jesus Christ is divine , that He is the only Son of God, and acknowledge that the worship of him was a system created by humans with their own cultural biases and human flaws. How else do you justify Eurocentric images of JC as blonde and blue eyed when he most certainly wasn't? Or the countless wars and killings in the name of Christ (one of the strangest religious oxymorons possible). I'll never understand this. For instance, why does the idea of Evolution (or scientific explanations for miracles) somehow discount Divine influence? Just because scientific fact doesn't literally agree with the Bible? Why can't the Divine work through natural laws? I thought that was the point. Why is allegory bad? Many of the narrative patterns and forms in the Gospels echo earlier stories of other deities. That doesn't mean that the stories were not "True", it means the writers were drawing from a recognizable tradition and using those allegories to present their god - the important moral and ethical messages remain, with a different emphasis, depending on which gospel. I'm sorry that my arguments seems to have offended your shaky faith. But if you're basing that faith on supposed historical "facts" and writings that cannot be questioned instead of personal beliefs and experiences, you are doomed to disappointment and anger in the face of intelligent debate.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:55 a.m. CST

    Ohhh boy Steve's in trouble!

    by Lukecash

    Man, if this is the sort of reaction you get in the Talkbacks, imagine what the mainstream is gonna be like. Let's face it: Nither Israel nor Palastine have their hands free from blood.

  • July 3, 2005, 12:30 p.m. CST

    THE PROBLEM WITH CONSERVATISM

    by bushsux

    Conservatives, especially neoconservatives, always try to see the world in black and white. To them, every war has clear good and evil sides like World War II ( a war which was fought and won by a liberal democratic government here in America). The problem is, that's not always the case. Many times both sides are both right and wrond. Take for instance this stuff with Israel. Israel has a right to exist as a home for the Jewish people, no doubt. However, the Palestinians deserve their own country too as well as basic human rights. Bush and Sharon, two right-wing politicians finally get it, why can't you conservatives get it? The only way we can ever defeat Islamic terrorism is by appealing to moderate and liberal muslims. We throw these people a bone the moderate and liberal members of their group will call for peace while casting out the conservative and right-wing terrorists. It;s as simple as that. Unfortunately, both sides are right now being led by conservative knuckleheads who don't really know what their doing.

  • July 3, 2005, 2:57 p.m. CST

    Why should Israel give up what it's won?

    by JUSTICE41

    Should the Red Sox give up the trophy and title just because Yankee fans deserve it? To the Victor goes the spoils and the spoils must be protected. Why can't the surrounding Arab nations hand off some land and help their brothers build a nation? Why? Because they are using these people as cannon fodder to keep their people in line. It's an old trick magicians use all the time. Slight of hand. Ever notice in any interview with an Arab they always start yammering about Israel? These people are obsesssed and probably have no clue why. Hate is Blinding .You Liberals hate Israel yet the American Jews are mostly Liberals. Helsinki? Stockholm? One of those syndromes. Or is it as simple as Roosevelt and Truman? American Jews are loyal to the Libs to a fault. The only blindspot Libs can't change is their Loyalty to Israel.

  • July 3, 2005, 3:05 p.m. CST

    Oh and Bushisgreat, Conservatives don't see the world in B/W

    by JUSTICE41

    They see the solutions to the problems in B/W. It's the Liberals who see nuance in everything. Solutions are very simple to many issues in life but there's always some asshole who wants to complicate things. Enter Liberals. The solution to the Palestinian problem is simple. It's the same solution to all the problems in those hellholes in the Middle east and Africa. Freedom!! If these people had freedom to own to move to work to live to pursue happiness by establishing a home. The arabs have nothing they can call home because the governments that run their societies are all completely corrupt. Why can Europe and North america Live decent lives? Freedom, Rule of law, Democracy, a representative government that can be held responsible by the populace. Show me where in the Arab nations this exists and I'll show you a country well on it's way to prosperity.

  • The palestinians, yes deserve to have peace and live well, like all humans should, but that does not give them the right to murder people to get what they want, all arafat lived for was the destruction of all jews in that area, and yes after the holocost the jews were given a choice were to live and they chose a land that was theres to begin with. Everyone from left to right attacked them and they managed to take everyone out. Israel doenst teach there children to hate and kill in there schools, even in the koran if you ever have a chance to read it will you see that it is a religion based on war, and is actually made and changed to the worst now because of what these clericks are teacing children in there schools, the bottom line is the israelis live in a democratic country with morals and values. And not all muslim countries are evil why cant all countries like iran, syria live like the muslims in morroco who live in peace with jews, but no because palestinians have to blame everyone around them for there misfortunes, whichis not because of israel because peace and love couldve happenned years ago if someone had found a way to assinate arafat because he is the animal who orchestrated all the suicide bombings and hostage takings in the past. israel will protect itself like america or any other decent country would were it to be attacked bottom line.

  • July 3, 2005, 4:12 p.m. CST

    Yankees fans don't deserve shit.

    by fiester

    I would like to see someone make a movie about an elite hit squad sent to take out Yankees fans.

  • July 3, 2005, 4:15 p.m. CST

    "the jews were given a choice were to live and they chose a land

    by HypeEndsHere

    Yeah. It was theirs because...um...they said God told them it was theirs. Poor, poor Canaanites.

  • July 3, 2005, 6:13 p.m. CST

    I've read the book this is based on...

    by TenderBranson

    it's called Vengeance and out of print i believe. it will defnitely make an awesome picture, and is basically about Mossad agents, hand picked by the President. They are cut off, and dropped inside Europe, to act like a terrorist group. So their supplier (i.e. weapons, passports, etc.) also supplies the terrorists they are hunting down. They kill most of the terrorist in bomb attacks, including a pretty sweet telephone bomb, and a bomb strapped underneath a guy's mattress. They also shoot people in the street. So they're pretty much terrorists killing other terrorists.

  • July 3, 2005, 7:49 p.m. CST

    Read my post, asskiss - I never called your religion a myth

    by oisin5199

    Once again, in my original post I was talking about popular literature about the devil (like Milton, Dante, etc. and oral tradition that told tales about Satan having horns, hooves and tail). And you obviously don't get my point about mythology - it's not my fault you take it as an insult when you can't understand the subtleties of the word. And my main beliefs in life ARE myths. (I'm living one right now - myths are patterns and stories that we follow in our own lives. Everyone's myth is different). Myth does NOT mean false. Calling something mythology doesn't mean it doesn't have truth and meaning. And what "facts" did you present? That Jesus is REAL while others are FALSE? What kind of a fact is that? Other cultures certainly believe their deities are REAL. That's not a fact, that's a bias. Religion is anything but facts - it's belief. You obviously ignored the rest of my posts and focused on your misunderstanding of one word. Also, the blond haired blue eyed Jesus is all over Medieval and Renaissance depictions - all it says is that every culture who encounters Christianity has their own depiction of Jesus that reflects themselves. That's what people mean when they say humans created God. Not that we create the Divine itself but we create our depictions of Him/Her/It. There's nothing wrong with that as long as people don't say that's the ONLY interpretation of divinity possible. That kind of thinking is what leads to conflicts that last centuries, like the Israel/Palestine conflict. My statements were perfectly reasonable and rational. Your being upset at my post reveals your own cultural and religious prejudices. If you've ever read my posts on other threads, you'd know I'm anything but a troll.

  • July 3, 2005, 8:52 p.m. CST

    http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/592283.html

    by TonyWilson

    An absolutley brilliant look at why this situation is so divisive why the "truth" is unlikely to be ever full known.

  • July 3, 2005, 8:56 p.m. CST

    Hate.

    by TonyWilson

    I`ve seen both Arabs and Jews and Christians and Atheists participate in this hate-fest. Part of me is tempted to say "May God smite them both until they learn to mourn as one." But we`re all part of a global ecosystem, and it is always the innocent who suffer when hate and stereotypes replace sane strategy on all sides. When each guilty partisan uses the sin of his enemy to avoid experiencing his own shame, the poison spreads to consume the innocent along with the guilty. May God, if there is a God, allow the innocent on all sides to have their stories told, and allow the guilty to change their hearts and forgive their counterparts on the other side whose sin is mirrors their own. And if the hatred continues, may it lead to a renunciation of religious nationalism and racism by the children of the guilty. May the ghosts of the dead no longer use the living as puppets.

  • July 3, 2005, 9:24 p.m. CST

    Amen

    by oisin5199

  • July 3, 2005, 10:23 p.m. CST

    repatriation of land....let's do it!

    by bigdickmcgee

    First, Syria should give back Lebanon to the Maronite Christians (if any are still left alive). Then Arab Muslims should give North Africa back to the Berbers. They should give the Middle East back to its original Jewish and Christian inhabitants. Muslims should give Turkey back to the Christian Greek Byzantines from whom they took it. They should give India, Pakistan and Afghanistan back to the Hindus and Buddists. They should give the Balkans back to the Christians. The Horn of Africa should be given back to the blacks, as should all of Sudan, Chad, Niger, Cameroon and Nigeria. In fact, since the Muslim Jihad started in Arabia, they should give back everything beyond the borders of Saudi to their original Pagan, Jewish, Animist, Buddhist and Christian inhabitants. Iran should be given back to the Persian Zoroasterians. China should give Tibet back to the Tibetans. Mexico should be given back to the Aztecs. In fact, all of the Americas should be given back to the indigenous tribes who crossed over the Bering Straight. Britain should be given back to the Saxons, actually, back to the Picts, which means that anyone related to French or Romans should be made to leave. Turks and Arabs should be expelled from Kurdistan. All non-whites should be expelled from Northern Europe, since they're not from there and are just there for land. All non-Aborigines should leave Australia and New Zealand. All Communists must be forced to leave Eastern Europe, Cuba, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Africa and Central and South America because they are clearly colonial invaders. We should return everyone to their original lands before "colonialism", which means the Jews go back to the Middle East, the Confusions go back to China, the blacks go back to Africa, the Arabs go back to Arabia and the communist left goes back into the fevered brain of Karl Marx. My bags are packed!

  • July 3, 2005, 10:28 p.m. CST

    The Palestinians blew it and have no reason to bitch anymore --

    by Triumph poops!

    Look, here's the absolute truth and absolute bottom line of which there is NO refuting. When Clinton was President he brokered a land deal with Israel that was actually MORE generous and which actually gave the Palestithans MORE things than they had come to the bargaining table seeking. It was their demand list PLUS SOME. Clinton wanted to ensure that they'd take the deal, that they'd have no cause for turning it down, and the Israeli government actually ponied up things hoping for a lasting peace. So what was fucking Yassar Arafat's reaction? To turn the deal down. To walk away and once again, for no good reason. Fuck that shit right up its ass. If EVER there was proof that this is NOT about land and establishing a homeland, but instead TOTALLY about fucked up hatred in the Arab world and USING the Palestinians as a pawn and tool towards annihilating Israel completely, that was the final proof of it. Arafat had what he wanted in the palm of his hand...he had MORE than the Pals had actually asked for...they were offered MORE than what they said they'd agree to...and Arafat fucked it all up by walking away. That asshole was a murderer anyway -- not to mention a thief since he literally stole HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars of foreign aid (if not over a billion) to line his own pockets -- so all told, at least the good news here is that cocksucker is now roasting in Hell right now. Hope that pig is on a stick turning very, very slowly with the flames set on extra crispy.

  • July 3, 2005, 10:29 p.m. CST

    TonyWilson = Sensible thoughtful guy. Bigdickmcgee = just a big

    by Cod Profundity

  • July 3, 2005, 10:30 p.m. CST

    Cod Profundity = boring leftwing doushebag

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 3, 2005, 11:06 p.m. CST

    Moondust = terrorist propoganda machine

    by bigdickmcgee

    Couldn't read your entire e-mail...too convoluted, unreadable, the product of a confused mind. From what I understand of your "argument", Arafat was on the up and up, and evil Jewish rightwingers "manipulated" the "intelligence". Back to Kansas, Dorothy. Arafat had no intension, non whatsoever, of making peace. If he did, he would lose all his Iranian and Saudi funding. He would become a nothing, another corrupt dictator of a tinpot non-state. And he would likely be killed by the Islamists. What you terrorist escuse makers fail to mention, is that the PLO killed more Palestinians than Israel. Why are there no liberal Palestinians? Because they're all dead. Thousands were assassinated by Arafat's thugs, killed in front of their families by masked men, teachers shot in front of their students. There were Palestinians who wanted genuine peace with the Jews. their dead now, murdered in a massive political purge by your heroes. There should be a movie for them, about how Europe and the media didn't report their mass murder at the hands of their own countrymen.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:09 p.m. CST

    hey Moon - I loved how you blamed the Munich massacre on the Jew

    by bigdickmcgee

    They refused to let 234 terrorist killers out of their prisons. Imagine that! What nerve!

  • July 3, 2005, 11:15 p.m. CST

    hey Moonunit - I just realized something....

    by bigdickmcgee

    You blame the Jews for all the problems in the region. YET....YET...YET...you refuse to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist! Isn't that called HYPOCRACY?? Isn't it?? You say it's all the Jews fault because they won't compromise. Yet you refuse to grant them the right to even exist. Do you not understand?

  • July 3, 2005, 11:17 p.m. CST

    read Yossef Bodansky "The High Cost of Peace"

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 3, 2005, 11:21 p.m. CST

    moon - will you acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

    by bigdickmcgee

    Your posts are obsessed with how unco-operative and underhanded the Jews are -- this from a guy who seeks their destruction. Unless you need it explained to you why people will not co-operate in their own annihilation.....will you acknowledge that Israle has the right to exist???

  • July 3, 2005, 11:26 p.m. CST

    Dennis Ross, Clinton's chief negotiator, said Arafat fucked

    by bigdickmcgee

    You know how I know that? I've seen him say it on TV about 800 times.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:27 p.m. CST

    moon - will you acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

    by bigdickmcgee

    Or will you keep bitching about how the Jews won't co-operate in their own destruction?

  • July 3, 2005, 11:28 p.m. CST

    ...or will you keep bitching about how the Jews won't co-ope

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 3, 2005, 11:29 p.m. CST

    there , I said it twice...

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 3, 2005, 11:30 p.m. CST

    moon - it's a yes/no answer...

    by bigdickmcgee

    if you refuse to answer, you illustrate the problem with crystal clarity.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:36 p.m. CST

    moon - I'm trying to engage you in a debate about basics...

    by bigdickmcgee

    Before two sides can sit down and work out differences, they must first acknowledge each other's right to exist. I acknowledge that the Palestinians should, like all peoples, have the right to live in a free and democratic society governed by the rule of law, with a free press, an independant judiciary, a real opposition and a constitution enshrining each individual citizen's liberty and human rights. DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ISRAELI JEWS HAVE THE SAME RIGHT??????????????????

  • July 3, 2005, 11:37 p.m. CST

    Arafat made Clinton look like a fool

    by JUSTICE41

    But in reality Clinton was a fool. A fool for not getting Arafat's signature and agreement on some paperwork before he walked out there with the two men only to have Arafat walk away. Arafat was never going to agree to anything as long as his Masters were pulling the strings. As it is the New guy is doing the same thing. Now he's allowing Hamas into his government. Arafat would have been killed if he turned his back on his Masters. Look at Sharon, he's in the crosshairs right now because of the Gaza pullout. Tell me which man has convictions based on doing the right thing, hmmm? You don't have to be pro terrorist to be Anti-Semetic. Just look at the Jew haters in this thread alone who say they aren't on the terrorists side yet still hate jews. If it wasn't the Palestinians they would find another reason to hate Jews. Take Israel and the Palestinians out of the equation and you'll just have a Jew hater sputtering about how the Jews own the world, run the banks, rule hollyweird, blah blah blah. You Jew Haters may as well burn a swastika into your foreheads your that obvious. As you all run around either yelling Juhad or Heil Hitler just remember we are here to oppose you. We'll chase you back to your Militia compounds were you can spout all the hate you want.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:45 p.m. CST

    Moonshine, That sounds suspiciously like those Downing street mi

    by JUSTICE41

    The same person who now claims that the war was set and the intel was to be made to fit. Just one person in the room eh? How convenient. For you to lie with. One source is not enough. Back it up with others claims. Refute Dennis Ross and Marc Ginsberg with documented proof. Or at least wipe the shit off of those docs you coneniently pulled out of your ass. They stink..

  • July 3, 2005, 11:49 p.m. CST

    Oh yeah also remind me why Madelline Albright had to chase after

    by JUSTICE41

    When he walked away from the bargaining table? Clinton was a fool. he screwed up Camp David and he screwed up the deal with North Korea. Look it all up, circa 1994.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:49 p.m. CST

    Moon - hear that tearing sound?

    by bigdickmcgee

    That's me ripping you a new asshole.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:51 p.m. CST

    Moon - those people you site are from the Israeli communist left

    by bigdickmcgee

    They thought Arafat was Karl Marx with a shorter beard....and much much gayer.

  • July 3, 2005, 11:55 p.m. CST

    hey Moon, are you by any chance a John Kerry supporter?

    by bigdickmcgee

    Every question he was asked, he had the same answer: go to my website.

  • July 4, 2005, 12:09 a.m. CST

    Darkfalz.....you know what you deserve?

    by bigdickmcgee

    To die in a terrorist attack. Along with your whole family. Think of it as a bitchslap, you fucking bitch.

  • July 4, 2005, 12:12 a.m. CST

    as far as our WWII reference...

    by bigdickmcgee

    Japan and Germany started the war which killed 80 million people. The Atom bomb ended it, and 35,000 died at Dresden which was a German army train relay station.

  • July 4, 2005, 12:36 a.m. CST

    I'm so Glad the Libs of the world are exposing themselves fo

    by JUSTICE41

    Keep talking folks. Your just proving me right with each word that drips out of your mouths. You Northern Europeans are on the cusp of falling back to your old nazi ways anyways. Just a matter of time before you all find some reason or justification for killing Jews. Difference between what happened in WW2 and The attack on 9-11 is that we were not at war. Anything that happens in war, a real, declared, standing army, war is justifable. Terrorism is terrorism. It's never justified.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:09 a.m. CST

    all your vacuous horseshit can't hide the fact that you&#39

    by bigdickmcgee

    You can't answer a direct question except with an avalanche of farcical, irrelevant and idiotic misinformation. Will you acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist????????? If not, you're complaining about why Jews won't die quietly.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:11 a.m. CST

    you've also quoted every anti-Semite you could find....

    by bigdickmcgee

    jihad Cindy?? Bishop Tutu?? Hot any from Goebbels or Himmler??

  • July 4, 2005, 1:14 a.m. CST

    I'm gonna hound you till the end of time...Moonass

    by bigdickmcgee

    You will answer one simple question: does Israel have a right to exist? You refuse to answer, because your answer is no. So, what you're complaining about, is why Jews aren't allowing themselves to be destroyed and their state wiped off the map. Do you realize what a hypocrite that makes you?

  • July 4, 2005, 1:16 a.m. CST

    US gives Israel 2 billion a year....it gives the other Arab stat

    by bigdickmcgee

    Israel's GNP is 106 billion. They pay for their own bullets.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:18 a.m. CST

    Moonass - you're nothing but a Jewbaiting liar, and you refu

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 4, 2005, 1:20 a.m. CST

    Answer the question, you Jewbaiting sack of shit....

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 4, 2005, 2:15 a.m. CST

    I rest my case....

    by bigdickmcgee

    By the way, while giving opinions and arguing on this foram is the reason for it's existence...actively promoting your crackpot political beliefs and petitions is in extremely bad taste.

  • July 4, 2005, 4:23 a.m. CST

    bigdickmcgee

    by DocPazuzu

    Keep up the good work. I've grown enormously critical towards Israel's policies over the last few years (under scumbag Sharon's administration), but there's a huge difference between being critical and wishing for the eradication of a sovereign nation. You've exposed moondust for the biased advocate of the destruction of Israel that he is. I'm willing to listen to just about any complaints about Israel and the Palestinians there are, but if the person voicing them can't even get behind the rights of both countries to exist then they've immediately invalidated any points they may have had. A person like moondust is interested in one thing and one thing only -- the destruction of Israel. If Palestine were created tomorrow, including eastern Jerusalem, it wouldn't be enough for him. He's a racist, intolerant swine who hides behind tired rhetoric, posing as a champion of an oppressed people in order to eradicate another people.

  • July 4, 2005, 7:38 a.m. CST

    "35,000 died at Dresden which was a German army train relay stat

    by TonyWilson

    Bigdickmcgee,have a look at this link: http://militaryhistory.about.com/cs/worldwar2/a/dresdenfirestor.htm The you can see it WAS 200,000 who died. I agree with alot of your points, but then you end up sounding just as pig headed and biligerent as the other side. Go read Slaughterhouse 5 if you want to know about Dresden.

  • July 4, 2005, 8:46 a.m. CST

    Darkfalz

    by DocPazuzu

    Thank God delusional morons like yourself are rare even in your native Australia. Loonies like you undermine legitimate gripes concerning the war in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East because for you they're all based on your squalid antisemitism and revisionism. You insufferable cock.

  • July 4, 2005, 9:43 a.m. CST

    What about Kurdistan? ...

    by Shan

    Apparently Kurds as an ethnic group are one of the biggest, if not the biggest ethnic group without their own nation. They were supposed to get one in the 1920's but got played out of it at the time when the area was carved up (again) into what started to look like today's present day borders. Some of the arguments put for and against the Israeli state above could equally apply to the Kurds I suppose, the one major difference in their situation is that they haven't got a fully independent nation state of their own. Interesting realpolitik how they were freedom fighters in Iraq and yet over the border in Turkey they are terrorists. So what does everyone think? Should they get their own country or not?

  • July 4, 2005, 10:20 a.m. CST

    DocPazuzu!

    by Shan

    I don't think we (Australia) have more crazy people per capita than the US (if that's where you're from). In fact, I think we probably have less - remember we get US television and we just couldn't compete with the extremes and quantities of Jerry Springer just for starters ...

  • July 4, 2005, 10:21 a.m. CST

    Oisin, Lando just took the word "myth" to mean "lie" or "false".

    by HypeEndsHere

    it's acceptable to term Greek mythology that because it's not your religion. as for Christianity being a mythology, yes, 'fraid so. the symbols and stories are taken from previous societies and the Bible is a fantastic amalgam of what came before it. to take it literally is to strip it of all meaning to your life. don't throw away the baby with the bath water simply because these are not physical events happening to real people.

  • July 4, 2005, 10:34 a.m. CST

    Shan

    by DocPazuzu

    My point was that Darkfalz is in the minority and shouldn't be seen as representative for Australians en masse, in case boneheads like vikingkitty should draw predictable conclusions based on Darkfalz's posts. And you're right -- we Americans probably do have more nutters among us than you have.

  • July 4, 2005, 10:36 a.m. CST

    moondust

    by DocPazuzu

    Want sympathy? Just answer bigdickmcgee's question honestly. It's quite simple, you asshole.

  • July 4, 2005, 10:58 a.m. CST

    Moondust - hear that ripping noise?

    by bigdickmcgee

    It's your new asshole getting bigger!

  • July 4, 2005, 11:03 a.m. CST

    hey Darkballs...I didn't know you were from Australia...

    by bigdickmcgee

    I would've guessed you were a goose-stepping kraut-sucker. But you're probably a Koran-kissing Jihadist.

  • July 4, 2005, 11:08 a.m. CST

    that's right, Moonfuck, I am a "Zionist"...

    by bigdickmcgee

    Which only means I believe Israel has a right to exist. It also has the right to grind anti-Semitic Jewbaiting slime like you into dust. I hope people sign your petition, becasue these anti-Israel petitions have been 100% failures. But it's nice to have a list of ones enemies provided by the enemies themselves.

  • July 4, 2005, 11:13 a.m. CST

    Bigdick, Darkfalz, Moondust

    by TonyWilson

    Have any of you, anti-semite/zionist hate mongers, ever heard of the value of Compromise?

  • July 4, 2005, 11:16 a.m. CST

    Tony, you're so full of shit it's pathetic....isn't

    by bigdickmcgee

    Compromise with Jewbaiting Nazis. Great idea, Chamberlaine.

  • July 4, 2005, 11:20 a.m. CST

    Bigdick, mate. Can't you see that attitude has got you nowhe

    by TonyWilson

    Listen if both sides keep on and on with the cycles of revenge and retaliation what do you think will happen? Palestinians aren't going to just give up and neither are the Israeli's. Y'see sitting up on that fence as you say lets me see both sides are getting NOWHERE. More death, more bombs, more terrorism. Not really the best way is it?

  • July 4, 2005, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Tony, it's not possible to get "anywhere" with people who se

    by bigdickmcgee

    When one side unilaterally seeks the other side's annihilation, that means in order to "compromise", the other side has to seek it's own annihilation. This is hard, even for Jews. There can be no compromises with people who refer to the Holocaust as the Holofraud. They know it happened. They AGREE with it. They want it to happen again. But they can't afford for Jews to get sympathy. As far as Moondust, the guy is a Moonfraud. He pretends to love Palestinians, but deep down he has contempt for them. They are a tool to him. His real agenda is a seething hatred of the Heebs. Palestinians are cannon fodder for people like him in his war against the Jews.

  • July 4, 2005, 11:50 a.m. CST

    I agree with part of that post. But surely you don't believe

    by TonyWilson

    Ok so there is a vocal, violent, powerful minority that do. Then you have a larger group that turns to such extremism because they have been innocent victims of Israeli retaliation. But by far the majority of Palestinian's like the majority of Israeli's want what every other average person on this planet wants. Namely freedom, security, a job and education for their family. These are the people you can talk to and solve problems with. You get a dialogue going with them, then the second group I mentioned starts to dwindle. Each side is going to have to swallow it's pride and concede things. There has been violence there for thousands of years. It doesn't work. You know what a good definition of insanity is? Repeating the same task over and over and expecting different results. I'm not trying to piss anyone off (although I did good job with thehappyrampager). I just want to put forward the idea that there is another way.

  • July 4, 2005, 12:09 p.m. CST

    Where have all the Palestinian liberals gone?

    by bigdickmcgee

    They were murdered by Arafat's thugs. The Palestinian territories are run by Islamist gangs with Saudi and Iranian paymasters. Any Arab who expresses a genuine desire for peaceful co-existence with the Jews signs his own death warrant. The people you speak of surely exist. They've been terrorized into silence, and their children have been indoctrinated into a culture of death. "Getting a dialogue going" with them is like getting a dialogue going with moderate North Koreans. Those Palestinian liberals do exist. But they've watched other Palestinian liberals get dragged into the street by masked men and riddled with machingun fire. They got the message.

  • July 4, 2005, 12:20 p.m. CST

    Frankly, I'm with Tony

    by oisin5199

    Both sides of this debate have equally disgusted me, though I do give Moondust a little more credit for not answering to the annoying and aggressive baiting of a Big Dick - well, he resisted for a while, anyway. I still think this dumbass "with us or against us" attitude is responsible for most of the shit in this issue (and most of the world's troubles) and tends to vastly oversimplify the world into binary ideologies (even here with the whole conservative and liberal thing). Seeing all the subtleties of all the sides does not mean not taking action, but it certainly makes that action more informed and intelligent and not weighed down by cultural ignorance and racism (on both sides!).

  • July 4, 2005, 12:45 p.m. CST

    Just for the record...

    by bigdickmcgee

    I freely admitted that I believe a free and democratic Palestinian state has a right to exist. I asked my opposition if they believe the same thing about a Jewish state. The silence was deafening. I'm being accused of not compromising.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:01 p.m. CST

    oisin5199

    by DocPazuzu

    bigdickmcgee -- like he himself stated -- believes in the right of a Palestinian state to exist. Moondust refuses to extend the same sentiment to the idea of Israel's right to exist. How does that make moondust worth "a little more credit" in this debate in your eyes?

  • July 4, 2005, 1:16 p.m. CST

    because he hasn't behaved like a total bullying asshole

    by oisin5199

  • July 4, 2005, 1:22 p.m. CST

    "because he hasn't behaved like a total bullying asshole"

    by DocPazuzu

    Oh, okay.... So I guess you feel that HOW something is said is more important than WHAT is being said. So if Hitler, Pinochet, Franco, Bokassa, Idi Amin, Stalin and Mao had said "please" and "thank you" more often, they would have been worth "a little more credit"? What a wonderful grasp of the essence of politics you have.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:32 p.m. CST

    Doc

    by bigdickmcgee

    You nailed it.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:38 p.m. CST

    You guys are all really obnoxious.

    by I Dunno

    ...and who stretched out the TalkBack? It's a good thing you guys all repeat the same shit over and over again or I'd have to scroll over to read it all. The bottom line is that both sides are assholes. Israel just happens to be the side with the better weaponry thanks to the US. The US is Israel's lapdog and will continue to arm them and help them violate international law and for that the arabs are going to continue their terrorist attacks on the US. This conflict is based on religion and therefore will have no resolution. This shit is going to go on until it eventually destroys most of civilization. THE END. See, that's the whole thing on one post. We now return you to the political circle jerk already in progress.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:48 p.m. CST

    "The US is Israel's lapdog"

    by bigdickmcgee

    Must be because of all the oil in Israel.

  • This has nothing to do with agreeing with either side. As I already said, I think both are seriously flawed. I tend to judge an argument by how it's made - it's what I do. I teach college kids to write argument papers. I don't grade them on whether I agree with them or not, but on how well they make their argument. Besides, I tend to take a person more seriously when they're being civilized, calm and reasonable. It's called being an adult.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:56 p.m. CST

    I should've known you taught college...

    by bigdickmcgee

    Although I'm still waiting for you to point out a flaw in my argument, professor. Seems, like every moral coward, you split the difference ("both sides are wrong blah blah"). You should judge an argument not by "how it's made", but by the substance of that argument. Who are we kidding here? I know what you are.

  • July 4, 2005, 1:58 p.m. CST

    thorvin....I have a job thanks...

    by bigdickmcgee

    But I take weekends off.

  • July 4, 2005, 2:05 p.m. CST

    oisin5199

    by DocPazuzu

    This isn't one of your classes and these aren't papers for you to grade. If you apply the criteria you use in grading semantics at work to a true discussion of values, then you shouldn't even be teaching college. What kind of "adult" can't differentiate between those things? You're ignoring the fact that one person (moondust) wants a one-state solution, while the other (bigdickmcgee) wants a two-state ditto. You prioritize delivery over message, and that makes your opinions laughably irrelevant.

  • July 4, 2005, 2:11 p.m. CST

    Doc - I may just leave these people in your capable hands....

    by bigdickmcgee

    But I do love it when people post to accuse all of us of going on and on....why are you reading it?

  • July 4, 2005, 2:11 p.m. CST

    Doc - I may just leave these people in your capable hands....

    by bigdickmcgee

    But I do love it when people post to accuse all of us of going on and on....why are you reading it?

  • July 4, 2005, 2:48 p.m. CST

    now bigdickmcgee is starting to sound like howard hughes

    by rivercb

    pushed into the ocean...pushed into the ocean

  • July 4, 2005, 2:48 p.m. CST

    TW isn't sitting on the fence, he's in the middle of the

    by JUSTICE41

    And like an animal caught in the middle of the road too afraid to go either way for faer of getting killed. Basically a coward. Tony your a coward. Compromise is for pussies. Never compromise. You give an inch today you'll lose a foot tomorrow. Has anyone noticed how after Saddam's money stopped flowing in and Arafat's demise how few Homicide bombers have penetrated Israel? Perfect illustration of how the outside influences have been running the show. If it wasn't happening why did it stop. There's oil in Israel isn't there, Think it's olive oil though. Ponder this thought, If the US and other western nations didn't have influence with Israel, what would Stop Israel from completely devastating the Palestinians? Israel has Nukes so other nations wouldn't dare attack them. So what keeps Israel from just declaring war on them and chaisng them completely out of the area? How would the surrounding Arab states deal with that? Would they gear up their munitions to include Nukes. Is Iran ramping up for that reason, so they, the arab nations, can have a retaliation weapon to match Israel's. Believe me folks. The US having influence in Israel is a good thing or that area of the world could be a real mess.

  • July 4, 2005, 2:52 p.m. CST

    "Must be because of all the oil in Israel."

    by I Dunno

    Nope, that's not it.

  • July 4, 2005, 2:54 p.m. CST

    rivercb -

    by bigdickmcgee

    Well, I do wash my hands a lot...germs everywhere...germs.

  • July 4, 2005, 3:08 p.m. CST

    JUSTICE41

    by rivercb

    the reason that the israel doesn't just kill all of the palestinians is because most of the people there aren't insane enough to do it, not just because of US influence. Even if they did, they know that they'd lose all world support and would be completely cut off. Also, Timothy Mcveigh was a "homicide" bomber. The Palestinains have "Suicide" bombers. There takes a lot more conviction for someone to kill themselves as well and that is a significant difference. Partly religious fanaticism and partly hopeless desperation.

  • July 4, 2005, 3:28 p.m. CST

    Nope it's ignorance

    by JUSTICE41

    These idiots heads are full of 72 virgins and living in heaven. That's not conviction that's idiocy. Besides we all know Suicides end up in pergatory. Support? From the rest of the world? Your kidding right? More like fear and resentment. Besides the US and England and a few others Israel has no support. Just check all the UN votes against it. As long as there are Jews there will always a convenient foil for blame for all that's wrong in the world. Just listen to the Ant-Semites in this talkback. Let me tell you, if Israel had as much oil coming out of it's ground as Saudi Arabia the hate would be treble. The question I want answered is why do you people wants so badly to believe the worst about Israel? What is it about you, that makes you want to hate these people so badly? Because lets face it. Not one of you people here has had any impact from Israel's issues. Not one of you, yet you all have this blind hatred. Why? Did your family hate Jews as well and you just picked up on it or is there some issue that causes you to blame them for everything. You knw what i see when i see israel? I see a small, tiny little country, besieged on all sides, putting up a fight and winning against huge odds. I will always stand up for the little guy. The fact that on one side of Israel you have elitists living the life while on another you have folks just wanting to live in peace. Gotta admire that man gotta. The palestinians could have had a decent life years ago but their ignorance whether forced on them or not has kept them exactly the same a they satarted while the thugs in charge have lived well off the money that should have gone to build up their society. The US gives 1 billion a year to help these idiots. Where is the supposed improvements? where is the money being spent?

  • July 4, 2005, 3:43 p.m. CST

    JUSTICE41

    by rivercb

    i agree with most of what you said. but i think that often when criticism is levelled, it is taken as anti-semetic and not as a ligitimate complaint. i can't speak for all those critical of israel but i'm pretty sure most people feel sorry for them. i can't imagine having to live in a place where i might be killed just going into a store but i think that that fear has created a paranoia and hatred, understandable as it is. as far as the palestinians go, i feel as bad for them because they've had some of the worst leadership imaginable, with people like arafat, over the years. as well as being completely ignored by the surrounding Arab countries who are happier to use their suffering as a political tool than to actually help them. i think the actions of israel as being more scary because it is government sanctioned. that is a lot more problamatic than a palestinian government who doesn't have the resources or even the will to try and stop it's own hatred. if there is progress, it will have to start with israel. they have an established government and the resources to make it work.

  • July 4, 2005, 4:24 p.m. CST

    Actually, it's up to Arab states to help not for Israel to g

    by JUSTICE41

    Israel is doing it's best, but get's no material support from the surrounding Arab states because they also fear the backlash. Ever notice how Isarael can target a terrorist member at will whenever there is a Homicide bombing? They track these scumbags well and could take them out at will. They don't because they hope to have peace eventually and if the strikes are unilateral they lose their position as the besieged. The Palestinians need to get their ducks in order before any real help will be supplied. Israel should complete the wall and start from there.

  • July 4, 2005, 4:39 p.m. CST

    The reality is, Im in the middle of the road or sitting on the f

    by TonyWilson

    Justice41 (oh the irony), I am looking at both sides of an argument. That does not make me a pussy. That makes me sane. Compromise does not make me a pussy. It makes me intelligent and compassionate Asking for a non violent soluton does not make me a pussy,unless you think Ghandi was a pussy or Jesus even. But then with your attitude you probably do. Did you read any of my posts? You should check out what I said about the definition of Insainty. Heck Bigdickmcgee, a pretty voiceferous kind of bloke can see the value in what I was saying and you still refuse. To bring it back to your analogy; you'd be the car trying to overtake the rest and getting smashed to pieces by the cars on the other side. Sure you'd take a few with you, but they would still keep coming. It's fucking funny really.******* "You give an inch today you'll lose a foot tomorrow" I reckon Arafat may have thought such a thing at Camp David and no doubt there are some hardcore terrorists who believe exactly the same as you. So props for getting into the "enemies" mindset so well. If it was up to JUSTICE41, and thank God it isn't, we would go to war over anything and everything. So I think, we all, as rational sane humans could tell you a couple of things. 1. Thanks for the useless diatribe now go fuck yourself arsehole. 2. If America is trying to help the situation (which I believe it is), through compromise, does that make George Bush et al pussies too?

  • July 4, 2005, 5:07 p.m. CST

    Xenu, Christ...What's the difference?

    by ldisc66

    Honestly, its all fiction. So instead of trying to fight the war on poverty, sickness, drugs and terrorism -- it's time to stop man's greatest threat.... RELIGION. It's far too dangerous to be in the hands of children. It should be regulated like fire-arms.

  • July 4, 2005, 5:08 p.m. CST

    Ghandi was up against the British Empire...

    by bigdickmcgee

    Not the Nazis. Not the Soviets. Not the Jihadists. Not Hamas. Not al Qaeda. Not the Khmer Rouge. So next time you're oppressed by Canada, call Ghandi. He'll stage a sit-in and all will be well. What you're advocating against facism has a name: appeasement. I'm getting tired of this talkback because it's moving in small circles and nobody has anything new to add. So let me end with a quote from Sheik Nasrallah, leader of Hizbollah. "We are not fighting you so that you will give us something. We are fighting to destroy you."

  • July 4, 2005, 5:20 p.m. CST

    Ghandi would have done the same against anyone you mentioned.

    by TonyWilson

    He probably would have been killed. Does not make him a pussy though. And you read a previous post of mine where I said it was the average Palestinians we need to be talking to. Many Israeli's believe this too. If you check out the link I posted to Harretz (sic) you'll see that there are already Iraeli's and Palestinians teaching at the opposite numbers college trying to show the difference in the historical narratives. This is where a solution to the problems will come from; UNDERSTANDING.

  • July 4, 2005, 7:21 p.m. CST

    Kudos

    by Cod Profundity

    We should take all Palestinians who want to kill and murder for greed. And all the Israeli's who wont listen and will go on killing and taking land. Then we should put them all on an Island and let them kill each other. Any christians or hindus or sikhs or buhhdists who wants to go killing them off can get shipped off too. The every one who wants to work this out and reach a deal sensibly can get started. That's Facism in action people. Don't you just love it?!?

  • July 4, 2005, 8:34 p.m. CST

    Sorry TW Your post bored me with it's pansiness and pussy wo

    by JUSTICE41

    Do you wipe your vagina back to front or front to back like all other pussies. Stop making excuses man. Bush isn't compromising. He laid down the Roadmap to eace and hasn't wavered. Your a twisted person who makes up things to justify your own ideas. You have no core convictions and probably have a hard time wondering which to wear in the morning panties or briefs. Must be tough being a waffling pussy. But you are the definition of a pussy.

  • July 4, 2005, 8:55 p.m. CST

    Justice, when you put it like that. Y'know like Team America

    by TonyWilson

    Same category as Kim Jong Il and Osama bin Laden. Bet you never thought you'd have anything in common with those guys. You want to start talking like a 14 yr old. Going on about pussies this and that then fine you go ranting on. The adults will go talk sensibly. What on earth did I make up? Bush laid down the road map to peace. Which involves compromise from the Israeli's and Palstinians. He is calling for compromise. Just like I am calling for compromise. So why isn't Bush a pussy by that reasoning? If you can't make a reasonable argument just stop talking. You'll seem smarter.

  • July 4, 2005, 9:05 p.m. CST

    As for core convictions I got plenty. They just don't match

    by TonyWilson

    If you took your head out of your arsehole and got over whatever genital obsessesion you have. You would understand core convictions are things like believing in justice not revenge. In the decency of common man. In the idea we are all created equal. Have a that the belief the world can be chaged non violently. A conviction that to progress and evolve we must look for new ways to solve problems. We must move on.

  • July 4, 2005, 9:22 p.m. CST

    I really don't see the need for this movie.

    by John Anderton

    Seriously.

  • July 4, 2005, 9:26 p.m. CST

    Pussy says what?

    by JUSTICE41

    Dudette your boring. And I am done. Onto the next movie thread. Seeyas.

  • July 4, 2005, 9:38 p.m. CST

    DocPazuzu

    by Shan

    I wasn't bothered, really. I saw the humour in it.

  • July 4, 2005, 11:55 p.m. CST

    When someone's a total prick, I tend not to listen to them.

    by oisin5199

    That goes for the majority of people on this thread. And you have no idea what I am, big dick, but your name says it all. I never commented one way or another on either side's arguments, because both you "Zionists" and "anti-Semites" can play in your little wargame sandbox while the rest of the world actually deals with reality. And neither you nor Doc obviously know a thing about teaching, so don't try to comment on my profession. Stick to baiting each other on a talkback and calling each other names like the children you are. You're much better at that.

  • July 5, 2005, 12:41 a.m. CST

    I'd love a lesson in "reality" from someone still trapped in

    by bigdickmcgee

    You're not morally superior to us. You're just a self-righteous doushe.

  • July 5, 2005, 1:07 a.m. CST

    maybe you'd like a spelling lesson from someone trapped in c

    by oisin5199

  • July 5, 2005, 1:12 a.m. CST

    and you're petty, too

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 5, 2005, 2:41 a.m. CST

    you call it semantics when YOU have a problem with a word I used

    by oisin5199

    Your biased, uninformed and simplified definition is fact, but my broader understanding is semantics? You STILL don't get what I mean by myth and how it's NOT the opposite of fact. That's been my problem with this entire thread, because people just believe in opposites, when these issues are more complex than that. And do I really have to explain to you what quotation marks mean? I was referring to the people on this thread and the names they are calling each other. Sheesh, asskiss, you wouldn't understand subtlety if it hit you over the head. I'm tired of trying to explain myself when you're obviously not listening and hung up on your hurt religious pride. Get over it! And when I say reality, I mean when you actually have to deal with it and work through things with people you may not like, not when you're namecalling and wanting to blow everyone up, like children in a playground. See, that's an analogy. I really didn't want to be a dick and petty (sorry, Big Dick) but the way people have been throwing shit around here and insulting each other has left me no choice - it seems to be the only thing you people understand. I'm finished here. Good night.

  • July 5, 2005, 3:24 a.m. CST

    oisin5199

    by DocPazuzu

    My earlier post about your tenuous grasp of politics still stands. And no, I haven't taught on college level, but the grade school kids I have taught had a better grasp of the time and place for message and/or delivery in a debate than you obviously do. I know it's virtually impossible for you to accept, but there are actually situations where semantics must take a back seat to the essence of a debate.

  • July 5, 2005, 5:39 a.m. CST

    lando, first understand that "mythology" doesn't mean "false

    by HypeEndsHere

    it's a belief system that applies to your life. a set of stories with characters that teach you morals. frankly, if you take the Bible literally, you're reading it in terms of its denotation and not its connotation thereby leaving you with nothing to gain. www.jcf.org

  • July 5, 2005, 8:15 a.m. CST

    This is incredible, OUTRAGEOUS!!! All my posts as MOONDUST have

    by Censorship

    I haven't posted anything that deserved to be deleted. But I believe that the foul-mouthed extremist zionists posting here have complained about my postings to the person responsible of talkback and accused me of something false because that was the only way left to them to silent a different opinion to theirs. They couldn't respond to the arguments and the facts i was giving them so after the abuse and the insults, they resorted to that well known weapon of the cowards and the weak: CENSORSHIP. I am asking the person responsible of TALKBACK to come back to his senses and put back my posts where they were. This a completely crazy behaviour and as a filmmaker myself i am shocked and stunned by this sensless behaviour. I challenge anyone to find anything offensive to any race or religion in what i posted. Was i wrong to mention that there are Jews who are opposed to Israel's policies , namely the 'jews for justice in the middle east' ? was i wrong to mention that 'Gush Shalom' is an Israeli association that is against Israli's oppressive policies? Why the censorship then? I demand an apology and that you put back my posts. I also ask other members of talkback who read my posts and who agree that it's wrong to delete them to WRITE and COMPLAIN to the person responsible of Talkback. THIS IS A SCANDAL! HOW CAN THIS BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN TODAY ???!!!

  • July 5, 2005, 8:35 a.m. CST

    Hey, Censorship, you in Bush's Uhmerika now, baaw.

    by HypeEndsHere

  • July 5, 2005, 8:42 a.m. CST

    by TonyWilson

  • July 5, 2005, 8:46 a.m. CST

    What I meant to say was, Moondust/Censorship. I didnt agrre with

    by TonyWilson

    It's pretty fucking insane If anyone complained about your posts. I guess they don't understand Freedom afterall. I think the TB moderator is called Doc Falken. You got one supporter here anyway. If i were you I'd repost some url's on here. They were very interesting. Don't let the bastards grind you down mate.

  • July 5, 2005, 9:13 a.m. CST

    Thanks Tony for your support, I have sent a complaint to the tal

    by Censorship

    I will make sure Harry hears about this one too. I don't think he will be too happy either. This is crazy!

  • July 5, 2005, 9:18 a.m. CST

    I emailed Harry and Quint, butwhats the address for the moderato

    by TonyWilson

  • July 5, 2005, 11:21 a.m. CST

    Neturei Karta response

    by templar

    I see that everyone's still discussing this issue. Tony, you said something about Neturei Karta. Each religion has its own zealots eg opus dei or wahhabism. I can probably tell you that most jews, religious and non religious do not side with these guys. Firstly, they're a relayvely small sect within (what) 17 million Jews. I doubt that they would even make up a 1/4 of a percent of world Jewry. Most religious Jews like those of Chabad and many others have synagogues and schools within Israel. As I said before, every religion has its zealots. Like any other relgious sect be it Christian or Muslim, they do not represent the majority. Does Opus Dei represent the entire Christian faith!

  • July 5, 2005, 11:22 a.m. CST

    Neturei Karta response

    by templar

    I see that everyone's still discussing this issue. Tony, you said something about Neturei Karta. Each religion has its own zealots eg opus dei or wahhabism. I can probably tell you that most jews, religious and non religious do not side with these guys. Firstly, they're a relayvely small sect within (what) 17 million Jews. I doubt that they would even make up a 1/4 of a percent of world Jewry. Most religious Jews like those of Chabad and many others have synagogues and schools within Israel. As I said before, every religion has its zealots. Like any other relgious sect be it Christian or Muslim, they do not represent the majority. Does Opus Dei represent the entire Christian faith!

  • July 5, 2005, 11:23 a.m. CST

    first!

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 5, 2005, 11:26 a.m. CST

    FIrst!!

    by TonyWilson

    To the moderators and webmasters. This was probably the best idea. Thank you.

  • July 5, 2005, 11:27 a.m. CST

    The best idea all round I think. Thank you.

    by TonyWilson

  • July 5, 2005, 11:28 a.m. CST

    First.

    by Cod Profundity

    Sensible I think.

  • July 5, 2005, 11:29 a.m. CST

    .

    by templar

    ?

  • July 5, 2005, 11:35 a.m. CST

    Is this site working

    by templar

  • July 5, 2005, 1:46 p.m. CST

    First??? NO WAY.

    by Frederika Bimmel

    Sword of Gideon rocked.

  • July 5, 2005, 1:47 p.m. CST

    FIRST!

    by Frederika Bimmel

    Fuckers. Sword of Gideon rocked.

  • July 5, 2005, 3:14 p.m. CST

    First, and only?

    by one9deuce

    Four days and no one is posting on this? I've never seen that in the seven years I have been coming here. Anyway, Spielberg loves to do a summer popcorn flick and a holiday released serious drama during the same year. This will be the 5th time he has done that.

  • July 5, 2005, 3:16 p.m. CST

    Hello?

    by one9deuce

    Is this thread working?

  • July 5, 2005, 3:20 p.m. CST

    premonitions?

    by rivercb

    this is a pretty good indication of the reaction this film is going to get. december is going to be quite interesting :)

  • July 5, 2005, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Unlike before, let's actually talk about semantics.

    by oisin5199

    From Wikipedia: In the main, semantics (from the Greek semantikos, or "significant meaning," derived from sema, sign) is the study of meaning, in some sense of that term. Semantics is often opposed to syntax, in which case the former pertains to what something means while the latter pertains to the formal structure/patterns in which something is expressed (for example written or spoken). Semantics is distinguished from ontology (knowledge of existence) in being about the use of a word more than the nature of the entity referenced by the word. This is reflected in the argument, "That's only semantics" when someone tries to draw conclusions about what is true about the world based on what is true about a word. To address my first accusation of semantics. Originally, I was making what I thought was a reasonable argument about the nature of evil. I used the phrase "Christian mythology" to talk about popular, non-canonical stories about the Christian devil. Perhaps I should have used the word "literature." Though it was the furthest from my intention, the use of this phrase apparently offended someone who grossly misread my statement to mean that Christianity was a lie. He then proceeded to insult and namecall me (Unlike my apparent offense, this WAS intentional) and unbelievably claim that I was a troll and should be banned. This person then continued to focus on his misreading of this one word, thus turning my discussion about something totally ELSE into a discussion of semantics. He then proceeded to accuse ME of hiding behind semantics, thus ignoring my ONTOLOGY (see above) in favor of semantics. I tried to explain my position and my use of the word, but that wasn't good enough - the person was still convinced I was trying to slam his religion. Fine, believe what you want. To address my other accusation: I commented on the bad behavior of a particular talk backer, whereas a third party accused me once again of favoring semantics, which he defined as privileging how a person says something over what they say - which is syntax, NOT semantics. Of course, this accusation was also flavored with further insults including disparaging my profession. If you look at the above definition of semantics, and my comments, my arguments were in NO way "semantics" which has to do with meaning, but rather it was about behavior. Of course, I know what someone says is important. But I tend to look at the whole picture. If you have two attorneys arguing a case and one is well-dressed, well-spoken, and calmly and rationally makes an argument, while the other is in t-shirt and jeans, smells of alcohol, stutters, and spits out vulgarities - which one are you most likely to listen to? This is how the world works - I'm not saying it should be true, but unfortunately, it is (most of the time at least - Bush seems like an exception). I'm a performance theorist so I tend to look at the whole picture. Online, meanings of words and how people read them (semantics) are vitally important. But even online, one can "read" performances. I was commenting on behavior - nothing else. My extreme example of the attorneys doesn't apply directly to the two individuals I was referring to in the talkback, but you see my point. I never said that one was right and wrong. That wasn't my point. I was nastily attacked for this and sadly, I let myself slip into nastiness by defending myself in an equally agressive way. Now that the smoke's cleared and everyone seems calmed, I wanted to make a more coherent statement. I pray (yes, pray!) for deeper understanding of variant religious faiths and their practitioners.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:59 a.m. CST

    Man you guys are so racist

    by Nabster

    You guys especially the muslim haters have the same attitude as Nazis. To believe one side is at fault and not the other is stupid. But there are some serious problems. The biggest problem, ISRAEL IS STILL RECLAIMING LAND. REPEAD ISRAEL IS STILL RECLAIMING LAND. As the prepare to give up land in Gaza they are taking land from the West Bank this is a fact. THERE CAN BE NO PEACE UNTIL LAND RECLAIMING STOPS. The UN has targeted Israel for over 60 un resolutions 0 for Palestine. Both sides are at fault. Palestine have many fundamentalists and militants. They are poor and uneducated. Violence may always be a problem. But make no mistake this war could be over in less than a year if Israel wanted it. Common misconception, Palestinians want all of Israel, this is false. Even most of the militant groups want land illegaly obtained from the 60s and onwards. That is all. Nobody is saying Israel does not have a right to defend itself it does. But Israel is still settling more land, and has been. How can there be peace until this stops?

  • July 6, 2005, 4:20 a.m. CST

    Both Sides conduct Revenge killings

    by Nabster

    This is a fact. Israel killed 9 palestinian police officers in retaliation for a militant killing 4 settlers. Those police officers had nothing to do with the attack. So its a fact both sides indulge in revenge killings. So how is one side better than the other? These conservative racists keep on going on about how militants kill innocent israelis. They do. But far more Palestinian civilians are killed by Israelis. Does that not matter? Its clear to me many ppl on this board are racists, and ignorant of the fact and will intepret data as they see it.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:03 a.m. CST

    Thanks, Lando

    by oisin5199

    I was going to let my explanation stand as a final statement, but since you're calling (btw, it's Oisin - from Irish mythology - oops! I said it! just kidding) I do appreciate your apology - it's good to know I can get through some times. Seems like the talkback absence restored some sense to us all. Funny how one word does make a difference. Says a lot about cultural bias. Now I'm done with this topic, finally. How bout that Galactus animation eating Avi Arad? High-larious! Cracks me up.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:42 a.m. CST

    AICN - Alot of Ignorant Conservative Noise

    by bushsux

    Who'd a thunk that those two million assholes who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 instead of Gore would have been responsible for so much damage to the world? Let's see, the new dumbfounded administration ignored warnings and memos saying tettorists were learning to fly planes in American flight schools and we got 9/11. Then they try to use 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with it and was not a threat, and actually succeeded! Well, they succeeded in starting the war at least, ending it, now that's another enchillada. Then these republicans turn economic growth into a recession, a $260 Billion budget surplus into a $430 Billion budget deficit. Lead 1,740 US servicemen to their deaths in Iraq and are now on the brink of replacing Sandra Day O'Connor with some far right religious nutjob who will help the religious nutjobs ban abortion and women's rights. I know Bush wants to nominate a moderate now but if he does he risks alienating him and his party's pro-life base. Smalldickmcgee and the rest of these idiot republicans will never stop being republicans, no matter how bad they run this country into the ground.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:49 a.m. CST

    Your impotent rage makes me laugh...but maybe you noticed that B

    by bigdickmcgee

    You have a mental problem. Take some of those vitamins Tom Cruise is always talking about.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:38 p.m. CST

    smalldickmcgee and his Gay Conservative Friends

    by bushsux

    You turn this whole talkback into some homoerotic liberal bashing fest and then you get all sensitive when someone insults your dear leader. You are simply ignorant for trying to paint liberals as being anti-Israel. Let's see, if it wasn't for Harry Truman, a liberal democratic president backing the creation of Israel, it wouldn't even exist today. Look at the US Senate. The most pro-Israeli Senators are almost all Democrats. Joe Liberman, Tom Harkin, Frank Lautenberg, Carl Levin etc. Clinton was the most pro-Israel president this country has ever had. And the craziest thing is that I actually agree with Bush and Sharon on the Gaza pullout, they're seriously trying to do the right thing for once. Now look at who's trying to stop them. Far-right Israelis and Evangelical Americans. Israel should exist and defend itself but it should also abide by the same Laws of War and moral standards that all other countries abide by. That is not asking much at all. What is asking alot is for you to use your head rather than regurgitate what Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity said.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:52 p.m. CST

    Bushsux - I think it's a verb

    by bigdickmcgee

    You're obsession with Bush has gone from the sublime, to the ridiculous, to the downright homo-erotic. How you pegged me as a gay republican I don't know. Wishful thinking on your part. Trolling for dates? I'm not really sure what your point is, other than you're still pissed about losing every election in the past 6 years. And you think it's my fault. You have an obsessive/compulsive fixation on Bush. You're suffering from post-Bush syndrome with accute narcissistic self-absorbtion disorder. I also don't think you've read any of my posts. You're neurotic stalker-like obsession with Bush and Republicans has rotted your brain. The way Howard Hughes saw germs everywhere, you see Republicans. I told you to take your L. Ron Hubbard vitamins, didn't I?

  • July 6, 2005, 5:05 p.m. CST

    bigdick vs. bushsux.

    by TonyWilson

    I gotta say, bushsux took that round. He got some good evicence and manged to make some nice sexuality references to get eveyone all riled up. Bigdick you normally answer back with at least some facts but that was just one long insult. Nevermind I'm sure you'll be in the ring for the next round ready to go. Bushsux, congratulations

  • July 6, 2005, 5:13 p.m. CST

    don't change the effing subject!!!

    by bigdickmcgee

    Bushsux wants to talk about his one overriding obsession: Bush and the Republican party. This talkback has nothing to do with Bush. Nothing to do with Gore. Or Sean Hannity. Or Rush Limbaugh. Or the Democrats. I got into it to bitchslap a couple of Jewbaiting trolls: Dex Luthor and Moondust, who's posts have since been deleted. So maybe Bushsux got to the party late and missed that. I wasn't talking about Bush, and I don't want to talk about Bush now. I was answering back people who said Jews control the world, the holocaust was a fraud, Israel was evil and must be destroyed. I never said anything about Bush. Bush was not the topic of conversation.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:21 p.m. CST

    This isn't an insult. But bigdicmcgee do you have to have th

    by TonyWilson

  • July 6, 2005, 5:27 p.m. CST

    Yes

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 6, 2005, 5:39 p.m. CST

    Aww. I thought you were going to be subtle and not answer. But n

    by TonyWilson

  • July 6, 2005, 5:42 p.m. CST

    I'm not a Republican. I'm not a Democrat. And I'm

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 6, 2005, 5:49 p.m. CST

    Well, I guessed about the last two. LOL

    by TonyWilson

    So would you class yourself as a realist, in the political sense, or a neo realist or neo-con, or conservative? Or none of those?

  • July 6, 2005, 5:59 p.m. CST

    Realist. Some liberal views. Some conservative ones. Like a n

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 6, 2005, 5:59 p.m. CST

    THE LAST SUPPER

    by TonyWilson

    Well Im off for tonight. Anyway everyone who posted on this TB should go watch The Last Supper. And for the record, I'd put myself in the same group as Ron Perlman's character.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:11 p.m. CST

    I'm the Ron Perlman character in Hellboy.

    by bigdickmcgee

  • July 6, 2005, 6:13 p.m. CST

    Hahahahahahahaha. Best comment I've ever seen.

    by TonyWilson

  • July 7, 2005, 3:25 a.m. CST

    Ok, I explained that bombing Iraq back to the stone age and givi

    by TonyWilson

    Who, do other people think, is the brainless wanker. Oooh showed up by a "coward" twice. Good going retard.

  • July 7, 2005, 5:48 a.m. CST

    Yes the Gaza Pullout is good...

    by Nabster

    But Israel is taking land in the west bank. Kinda counter-productive isn't it. Only this is not made a big deal in the media. Especially the US media, since it is controlled by Jews. That is why Americans on a whole are so ignorant about many topics, because they get their information from Fox News. What a joke. You really have to pity these Republican Nazis.

  • July 7, 2005, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Massive terrorist attack in London

    by templar

    For those of you who are still asleep.There were 7 massive terrorist attacks in London. Islamic terrorists have claimed responsibility

  • July 7, 2005, 8:08 a.m. CST

    Nabster

    by templar

    Jeez, so its "the Jews control the world" speech again. Many people smarter than you Nabster tried to use that one. Peddle your rascist idealogy somewhere else. It seems we full up here.

  • July 7, 2005, 9:17 a.m. CST

    Nabster = Jewbaiting retard

    by bigdickmcgee

    Fox News is owned by the famous Jew Rupert Murdoch. CNN owned by the famous Jew Ted Turner. When you say things like "the US media is controlled by the Jews", it paints you as a racist moron and invalidates everything else you have to say.

  • July 7, 2005, 1:26 p.m. CST

    Lando, I doubt you even own your own home.

    by TonyWilson

    You don't get to "own" someone by effectively sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting on about sex fantaises. You get to "own" someone by showing up their arguments as childish bollocks. Go home Lando.

  • from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas :"Hamas...is a Palestinian Islamist militant organization closely related to the Muslim Brotherhood. Their stated goal is to conquer all of the State of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, including any secular Palestinian state that may come into formal existence, and replace it with an Islamic theocracy...Hamas regards the land that it calls Palestine, including all of present-day Israel, as an Islamic homeland that can never be surrendered to non-Muslims, and asserts that individual and community struggle (jihad) to wrest control of the land from Israel is a religious duty for all Muslims. This position is more radical than that of the secular PLO, which in 1988 recognized Israel's sovereignty. Hamas does not recognize Israel as a sovereign state and refers to Israel as the "Zionist entity". According to the Washington Institute, Hamas views the Arab-Israeli conflict as "a religious struggle between Islam and Judaism that can only be resolved by the destruction of the State of Israel." [1] Hamas uses both political activities and terrorist violence to pursue its goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority." See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad for a similar group.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:09 p.m. CST

    m2298, Hamas wants all of Israel. Palestinians don't.

    by TonyWilson

    So what was your point?

  • July 7, 2005, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Lando, you have not even bothered to argue, all you have done is

    by TonyWilson

    You can't even come up with a good reason to bomb Iraq, everyone has told you that it won't stop the US being attacked. You've just ignored that fact. Go home, you're deluded.

  • July 7, 2005, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Maximum respect to TonyWilson

    by Bastian

    That's all I have to say.

  • July 7, 2005, 4:06 p.m. CST

    Bastian, thanks mate. Although, I get the feeling you are in a m

    by TonyWilson

  • July 8, 2005, 2:10 a.m. CST

    Buzzkill Central

    by docfalken

    I'm glad to see that Daniel Craig is getting some good work on this thought provoking film. The good news is that what has taken thousands of years of fighting has now been solved in a talkback about the joy of movies. I'm not saying the discussion isn't important or disrespecting anyones opinion, but this site is supposed to be about the coolness of things. This site really isn't a place for such gravitas.

  • July 8, 2005, 5:38 a.m. CST

    Modern day terrorism

    by stoopid1

    Its depressing that this film is about the birth of modern day terrorism at an Olympic games and we see Londons Underground blown to hell less than 24 hours after they won the Olympic 2012 games. These people are fucked up and theres a special place in hell reserved just for their insane asses

  • July 8, 2005, 3:32 p.m. CST

    to Tony Wilson

    by m2298

    I didn't say that all Palestinians in general want the entire State of israel as part of Palestine (i.e. "one state solution). I was simply correcting an earlier statement that all of them just want the '67 territories back. And Hamas is not an inconsequential group, as it's recent electoral successes have shown.