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Dem Bones bones SERENITY...
Hey folks, Harry here... I just can't seem to get excited about SERENITY. I know how passionate the Firefly fans are... but their enthusiasm leaves me feeling like I did coming out of TANK GIRL. When I saw that film - the audience I saw it with seemed to absolutely love and enjoy every second of that film. While I sat there looking at them like they were insane. I didn't really enjoy FIREFLY on DVD when I saw it. Wished I did. It would mean the love of Herc, which is like being wrapped in a thousand twitching tongues for 42 minutes. I'm hoping to enjoy the movie though, Robogeek claims it's the best movie he's seen this year. Though I don't know if that holds still... he's seen HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE and the Miyazaki geek in him may be stronger than the Whedon geek. Here's Dem Bones' review - beware of spoilers...
Hello Harry, Moriarty and crew--here is a review of “Serenity“, if you want to publish it…
Oh Firefly. I loved that show. The characters, the world, the writing, direction, acting--I loved it.
But I am not here to praise it, unfortunately -- I am here to bury it.
After less than half a season, Fox dumped the show, leaving many of us who loved the show up in the air, until it got a new life on DVD, prompting rabid sales and now, a movie sequel--”Serenity”.
I got a chance to see the film last night in Columbus, Ohio--and as amazing as it was to see the crew come together, as fantastic as the effects and directing were, Universal has a problem on there hands. They have invested their money in an odd, dark, science fiction fetish movie expecting a new franchise--but it really only works as a finale to the TV show. As good as the film is, I do not expect it will bring new fans into the fold, except to get people to watch the DVDs of “Firefly”. I really think it is a very good film, but it has major hurdles to overcome.
I will try to talk about the film with minor spoilers…
On of the major problem with “Serenity” is that you really need to have seen Firefly to enjoy it. The events of the film, the good and bad, only affect us if we have an intimate knowledge of our Merry Band of Pirates from watching the show. If you had not seen the last two episodes, you would not know why “hooker-with-the-hear-of-gold” Inara is not on the ship, who she is, what she means to Mal, and what the big deal is to get her back onto the ship. In fact, there is no reason to have her in the movie at all--she really does nothing to advance the plot nor is she a big help when the chips come down. Even in the end, when we should get some kind of payoff for the implications of Mal and Inara’s feelings--we get nothing.
The major plot points of the film, as you can tell from the trailer, deals with crazy, psychic River Tam and the crazy, cannibalistic Reavers -- two of the weaker elements of the show, now brought to the forefront. Do we really care why the Reavers became mad-dog cannibal murderers? Is it really that important? Men have gone crazy and committed murder forever--why do we need a ‘McGuffin’ built around them? Do we really need to focus on what in River’s head makes her crazy? We know through exposition that she was experimented on Mengele-style to become an assassin…isn’t that enough? And where are our blue-handed, evil Alliance men?
Another thing -- when there are TWO MAJOR CHARACTER DEATHS in the film, you really need to have strong scenes setting them up, so you can feel something when they die. Having seen the show, they did affect me--but to someone unfamiliar to the show, they might not feel anything.
One of the deaths I understand--it moved the characters forward…but the other death was so pointless and hackneyed it actually made me angry--which is more than I can say about the characters in the film. They just shrug it off and move on, and that is another problem with the film --everyone seems cold. When you get the aforementioned character deaths, you would think that we would get some moment at the end that had our characters actually experiencing some kind of display of emotional outpouring--but no. The film fails to build enough character moments in the first half, so that you really feel the loss of the characters.
In the original pilot for Firefly (also titled Serenity) Whedon had Malcolm Reynolds be an angry loner sourpuss, convinced that God had abandoned him -- and that was okay. I don’t know if it was studio’s tweaking, but he seemed lighter as the show went on. And this film needs more light.
It is uncompromisingly dark--and the captain comes off as a real jackass. He is not the fun captain we expect, and he doesn’t go through a character arc to become him in the end.
I think, in the end that is the sad truth of the film--it is not fun.
And we wanted it to be fun--to be a celebration of continuing on, even in the face of cancellation. It would have been nice if it was a smart, complicated lark--that’s how you start a franchise, letting them get darker as the series progresses. You build your relationships, so you can pull the rug out from under your audience, sweetening the emotional resonance.
The sad thing is, as close to great as this movie is, there isn’t time or money for improvements. The movie, outside of the music score, is finished.
These pre-screenings really serve no purpose, since there will be no re-shooting or re-editing. The only purpose for these screenings I can think of is that Universal knows that there is little chance of it succeeding at the box office, so the hope that a grass-roots, limited-engagement screenings will drive up the grosses for opening weekend. If they were smart, they would just open it in limited release, keeping the viewing of this movie an event.
We thought we were getting a sequel or a new beginning, and what we get is an ending, a burial. This film will not spawn sequels or a new TV show. At least when we left the show with “Objects in Space”, there was still the open-ended hope of new adventures. Now, with Serenity, the coffin is nailed shut.
I hope that is helpful to you guys. I am sorry that my opinion isn’t higher. I certainly wanted it to be knocked out of the park.
If you do use this , just refer to me as “Dem Bones”
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+ Expand All
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its good i love it
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I'm posting this again in hopes of having some answers or comments from others on the points I have.I saw the film at the last screening and have been a big enough fan of Joss' work that most of you would accuse me of having a three way with the man and Herc. Truth be told I loved this film and hated it at the same time. It's a great rollickin' adventure that kicked my ass to the wall but with some major flaws that end with me feeling cold. 1. How the hell do a race of mindless savages hell bent on the wholesale distruction of life fly their ships....who leads them? 2. Mr. Universe and the status among the crew he's given. 3. While Joss does funny so damn good and heart wrenching sad at least as well, having a sight gag less than three or so minutes after the death of a major character doesn't work tonally. 4. Said character gets the Anya treatment, there's just not enough of a reaction from the characters or resolution. 5. Why didn't the Reavers wipe out the other 90% who stopped moving? 6. Why didn't the Alliance destroy the Reavers and re-Terraform their planet?
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Jun 24, 2005 6:51:54 AM CDT
I saw it with people who has never seen "Firefly" and who were l
by prozacmorris
They were also able to follow the plot and understand the characters just fine. That argument makes me think that some of you out there think that people really are MONKEYS. Primates with fuckin' tales and a cravin' for bananers. Serenity is a lot of fun. People will respond to that and see it. Peace.
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... as to what the negative Talkbackers on this subject are hoping for? I've read a bunch of rabid boosters, which I get -- they're people who loved the show and want the movie to succeed. But all the rabid doomcrying -- what up? Some of the comments I just plain don't understand. Like the one above that predicts how bad the movie's going to bomb. Um... even if it does, what's it to you? What is this, Daily Variety? Do you guys have a stake in whether or not this film makes money? As supposed movie-lovers, I don't get why people would hope AGAINST something being a good movie. Further, I don't know what being a hit or bombing has to do with the quality of the film anyway. PHANTOM MENACE is one of the Top Five Highest Grossing Films Ever. RUSHMORE is not. Guess which one I'd rather watch right now. Sorry, the whole naysaying thing just doesn't make sense to me... As far as SERENITY goes, I saw it last night in Minneapolis. It's a great ending for the television show. As with ALL Joss Whedon's stuff, it might seem ridiculous without investment in the characters but if you ARE invested, it's incredibly resonant. So what's a newbie to do? Rent/Buy the DVDs, go see the movie and enjoy the entire, rewarding FIREFLY experience.
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Moderate business in the US, a major bomb in the rest of the world, especially given the wave of summer blockbusters swooping in on cinemas at present.
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...because everything in that review sounds pretty good to me. And as a true Firefly fan, Dem Bones should know that Reavers and River were not "weaker" elements from the show. They were the two things that most fans wanted resolved, along with Book's past and Blue Sun. And Harry, if you really didn't enjoy Firefly then, man, our tastes are totally different. Hopefully you'll like the movie because the Reavers will make up for the lack of vampires and werewolves.
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"I didn't really enjoy FIREFLY on DVD when I saw it. Wished I did. It would mean the love of Herc, which is like being wrapped in a thousand twitching tongues for 42 minutes."
I'm not sure what kind of twisted relationship you and Herc have, but if sex with Herc is as good as you describe, why wouldn't you say you loved Firefly, get your Herc thousand twitching tongue jollies, then just recant when you've had enough of him, devouring your difficult to locate privates?
From your description, you must have had this glorious experience at least once! Harry the red bear? -
in case anyone is curious, this is what I gathered so far:
Riverside: Joss
Houston: Summer Glau
Phoenix: Nathan Fillion
Charlotte: Chris Buchanan
NYC/NJ: Morena Baccarin
Miami: Gina Torres
Boston: Loni Peristere (Zoic)
Toronto: Sean Maher
Indianapolis: Ron Glass
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I came out of the movie theatre bouncing, but part of that was because I had loved the comics, and I had no clue how they were going to manage to translate them to the screen. I still think that they probably did the best they could possibly do, in taking a completely psychotic comic and turning it into a live-action feature.
As for Serenity, I don't care what anybody says. I'll go see it for myself. -
It would take at least that many to wrap Harry!
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...but it will be with Firefly fans. Which is great. Coz I love the show.
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Jun 24, 2005 7:47:19 AM CDT
the trailer looked dumb, like a cheesy WB sci fi actioner - espe
by spacesheik
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When you write a review, don't speak for everyone(well at least not for me).
"The major plot points of the film, as you can tell from the trailer, deals with crazy, psychic River Tam and the crazy, cannibalistic Reavers -- two of the weaker elements of the show, now brought to the forefront. Do we really care why the Reavers became mad-dog cannibal murderers? Is it really that important? Men have gone crazy and committed murder forever--why do we need a -
that says it all to me. Prediction: mediocre opening weekend(20M?), major drop after that.
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First Time Viewer of the Show. I just Finished it last Night. I loved it I did not think I would But I did.
If you give it a chance this show really Takes off. Know I Can not wait till the movies out!
Lets just hope the Song in the beging of the show is not in the movie becouse that Song is just BAD! -
...of you capable of watching something objectively, I'd love to know how many Firefly-bashers have watched at least 3 episodes of the show, starting with the pilot. And harry, it amazes me that you didn't like the show. You're the first "adult" I know to watch the full series and not be totally hooked. My review will hopefully post soon. I saw it for the second time last night.
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Dem, you're not smart, and you're not psychic. You don't know what anyone wants but yourself, and if you watch the movie, there were really good reasons for BOTH the character deaths. They both moved other characters forward, especially as much as I loved the second character.
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Jun 24, 2005 8:23:48 AM CDT
COWBOY BEEBOP Is Vastly Superior on Just About Every Conceivable
by zombiesolutions
sorry, Joss, i love the BUFFY/ANGEL-VERSE, but, the COWBOY BEEBOP remake that is FIREFLY/SERENITY is, well, not nearly as good. not bad, but not all that great either.
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I won't waste my money. The special effects in the trailer look very TV and not like they belong in a movie. Is there anyone else out there that is baffled by all the Whedon cock-suckers out there? "From the mind of Joss Whedon" who gives a shit.
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as much as it pained us to watch it, imagine how Jason Hewlett must have felt. i can't even imagine the pain. it must have been like watching your child being raped. well, at least the Gorillaz throw him tons o' cash.
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When is Hollywood going to stop rewarding these pathetic-loser writers, like Joss Whedon? So, he did "Buffy" for a few years and a bunch of weiner-fanboys loved it. Who gives a crap? That show blew chunks and will die a slow death in syndication, until no one cares or remembers anymore. Hopefully, Joss will do "Wonder Woman" and it will bomb too, thus killing his career.
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'2 major deaths'? Is that ALL??? If Joss is to rape the very being out of the BBC's late seventies - early eighties sci-fi fest Blake's 7...then surely the WHOLE crew have to meet a sticky end? Don't tell me - you're all going to tell me that the story of a group of renegades - led by a charismatic loner - stealing a cool ship and being chased all over the galaxy by the ruling Imperial forces is a new idea. Tisk. Shame on you. (at least he didn't steal any dialogue straight from series...that would be bad wouldn't it?)
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As illustrated by his positive reviews of ID4, Armageddon & Attack of The Clones and his negative comments and reviews of the TV shows Firefly and the new Battlestar Galactica. I guess either he like overblown, badly written and acted Sci-Fi movies or he simply doesn't have attention span to appreciate quality Sci-Fi on TV.
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Where is the cool ship coming from? This isn't Andromeda, Lexx or Farscape.
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Jun 24, 2005 9:15:45 AM CDT
Jeditemple if you are going to insult Whendon then be accurate y
by tonywilson
Ok, i fucking Angel. I like Buffy but used to love it when i was 16-18. I'm sick of people calling Joss a Hack. He has his faults, so does everyone really. BUT his characters and dialogue is/are original and well written. The plots are fast paced and any twist are played for real not just for the sake of it. And mainly he really loves his characters and shows. That is not a definition of a hack. You can say you hate his style you can moan about the fx quality but you can't deny his talent and pasion.
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It's Blake's 7 :)
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I hate it when Joss kills off characters, it always feels like a slap in the face and he even LIKES it when that's how people respond. It's very alienating and borderline abusive. I'm very sorry to hear a fan saying what this review says. I don't know if I'll agree, but just the fact that a fan can have this reaction at all is troubling. Dangit. Maybe you CAN take the sky from me....:(
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I'm one of those 'sad and bitter' people you must be referring to. Hear me out: never watched the show and don't care to. Watched the trailer and felt very 'meh' about it(I'm a scifi fan BTW). Wanted to share my 'meh' feelings with others. Posted it here. Waited for the rabid Whedon-ites to bash me. I post here because A) I can, and B) I like to read and discuss movies (whether I like them or not). Maybe you can just read the subject lines and determine which posts you want to read, and filter out all the negativity. Enjoy your movie.
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Anyway, Tank Girl had a goth Naomi Watts, 'nuff said. But yeah, it did suck.
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I weep for the sci-fi future.
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As far as I have heard it, it's like this: Joss wanted to complete his story. According to an interview with one of the cast members this movie is the first of a trilogy (everything just has to be a trilogy nowadays), which could be a bad thing. But not with Joss. The man has proven he can create powerful long-lasting story arcs, so I don't expect less than brilliant. After a lot of ravings and cheering on the internet, among them these boards, I bought the DVD set and I was sold (Firefly did air here in the Netherlands, but on a unholy time). I watched the pilot and couldn't get enough. Ended with seeing them all back to back. I don't want this to stop! Never! Curse Fucking Fox for cancelling this! Whedon's the man and I, for one, will be in line (if there is one) to watch this baby on the big screen.
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I need to get this off my chest, I agree Harry has absolutely horrible taste when it comes to sci-fi. Anyone who doesn't love the new Galactica doesn't just have bad taste, they border on sheer stupidity. That said, Harry is absolutely right that The Matrix II would have been WAY better had they included vampires and werewolves instead of a prolonged dance sequence or whatever. You all know it, but it's become the common Talkback insult for Harry when the reality is this, why set up such a potentially cool idea in the movie and then not run with it? I mean, did we need more Kung-Fu fights? That fight on the stairs that came right after the vamps/wolves thing was a collossal waste of time........Onto Firefly, a great show that was a lot of fun, and yes it was a Cowboy Bebop ripoff, no doubts there. Serenity has a small, very dedicated audience and word of mouth will probably have this movie breaking even at the box office. DVD sales will be the only profit this movie sees. I hope I'm wrong, but the teenie-bopper Buffy crowd doesn't give a crap about Whedon's "space show."
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COULD implies that you care somewhat. COULDN'T means that it's not possible for you to care less. Thank you.
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Saw the film, BIG fan of the TV series, and I agree with this review.
What kills me about all the reviews is that everyone says they liked the film but they go on to bash everything that's wrong with it.
I agree with everything in this review except the fact that it's a likeable film. It's WAY dark, Malc is in NO WAY likeable, not even close to as likeable as he was in the Serenity pilot (or any other episode). In fact, the only character really exact was Jayne. The rest were all shadows of themselves. When they even managed to get any screentime.
If you liked the show, expect a VERY dark, different film going in. Die hard Whedonites like this no matter what because they are happy to see the film get made. I agree it was quite an accomplishment and I appreciate Joss and the cast's efforts, but I just don't like the product.
Sadly, in Joss's taped into he urges fans "now is the time for quiet" if you don't like the film. So in a way, saying that he only wants to hear praise and doesn't want fans to be honest when their feelings are negative. Shame on you for that, Joss. We're all entitled to our opinions, no matter what.
For me, I wanted to see TV's Malc Reynolds, the Han Solo, Indiana Jones-ish light space adventure, with action, thrills, and lots of fun and quips like the show did. Not this dark, cold, miserable world and crew we see in Serenity. Malc acts like he pretty much hates each and every one of his crew the entire length of the film.
If I hadn't seen the show at all, I'd REALLY have hated the movie. At least knowing the backstory allowed me to try and like some of them a little more.
Normally as a fanboy I get excited when I hear "dark". I'm like oooh, this is cool, stuff they couldn't get away with on TV. The Niska stuff on the series was way darker than the movie, but still done with some humor, action, and fun. This is all just misery and sadness, aside from the occasional Wash-ism or Jayne-ism.
As a fan of the series, I was so disappointed in the way the film was handled that I wonder if I'd rather have had the movie or no movie at all just to remember my Serenity crew the way they were on the show. -
SO let's see... Harry gets berated for saying that Firefly isn't his favorite show of all time? What does it matter if he doesn't like it? He's not so close-minded as he's saying that he won't see it, and he will give it a chance, so what's the problem with him not creaming his pants for Serenity? Some people say cucumbers taste better pickled!
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Really? Even in movies. I haven't seen this yet. I hope there are more screenings so I can see it sooner rather than later. But this "pointless" death might actually BE the point. - n/a
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...the fact that he doesn't like "Firefly"/"Serenity" doesn't surprise me at all. Go watch another "Star Wars" flick, fat boy.
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Was pretty good for a BIG episode of a TV show, but not a great movie. Perhaps the look of the film will be nailed by time of release. Right now it looks like it was shot on video. Great fun though!
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Arguably one of the best Sci-Fi TV series ever produced and Harry says he doesn't like it. The only part of this that makes sense is the fact that it's Harry saying it. I'll admit when I first was asked to watch the series by a friend, I had no interest. I've heard so many shows billed as a "Space Western" that I was like..."Whatever". So I sat through the series and found myself drawn in like a moth to the flame. Now Fox drops the ball with the show and Universal picks up the show and runs it for the endzone. The movie has the potential to be the next big thing. Will it be another Star Wars like everyone says? Who knows. Even as a rabid fan I have my reservations that it will reach such a phenom status. But, I have personally never me a single person who has seen the series who hasn't become an instant fan. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but how can Harry not get excited? This is the guy who geeked out over Van Helsing, a movie I was sorry to have paid to see. A man who puts Man-Thing in his June DVD pick list, but didn't enjoy Firefly? This show brims over with heart and character, which is sorely missing in most shows today. All I have to say Harry is maybe you've been doing all this too long. Maybe you need to step away from the genre/sci-fi/geek movie stuff for a while, drink a tall glass of water, and cleans your palet. I think your taste buds are so completely numb that the only enjoyment you find in things anymore are the ones you completely hype yourself over on, or the ones your friends are involved with. I think you are unable to truely taste anything and enjoy a new experience without it being sold to you. Take a break Harry, and come back to this in a year. You'll either find yourself rejuvinated or you'll find out you never had a taste for this stuff in the first place.
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Jun 24, 2005 10:44:52 AM CDT
"Arguably one of the best Sci-Fi TV series ever produced"
by bart of darkness
Says who? Don't state opinions as if they were facts in some sort of coherent argument. I wouldn't put it in my top 50, that's my personal opinion.
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Bones,
I've seen it twice so far (my wife is the big fan), and I disagree with several of your points.
Both 'major developments' serve to motivate the characters, they also streamline the crew to something that makes a bit more sense for future films.
I think they did a great job re-introducing the main characters, they've all been nicely simplified and Jayne gets a good treatment as a tough guy who is disturbed by little, but terrified of the reavers (but still brave and effective). Kaylee is the only character who really suffers as a result of this simplification, but it's a movie, not a series.
My brother who had only seen 3 episodes, loved the movie and he's a pretty good judge.
Finally, I'm not sure where you get your information, but I noticed several key changes to the editing. Some of the exposition that was not clear in weeks ago has been cleaned up and the climax had been streamlined as well.
I don't thing this is gonna break box offic records, but it will work well to bring folks into the fold (Sci Fi reairing the episodes at the same time will help greatly). Universal will make money on this.
What more can you ask? -
sheesh....relax people
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even though it's leaving me completely not excited to see the movie. Too bad. It almost sounds like it'll be one of those movies that's better on DVD.
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Dont get it, gay title.
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I know this is a bit off topic, but why doesn't Harry ever talk about PRINCESS OF MARS? Isn't it a wee bit hypocritical to run a site that thrives on busting the studios by publishing "inside" intel, only to sit silent on the sidelines when you clearly must know what's going on with a movie a lot of us care about? I mean, isn't Harry a producer on PRINCESS?!! Shouldn't he be providing us tons of info?!
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Jun 24, 2005 11:58:04 AM CDT
Fans who say "you need to see the source material first" are usu
by thefuture2000
Fan-penned reviews of Harry Potter films, the Hitchhiker movie, and now Serenity are always loaded with lines like "On of the major problem with
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why the thinly vieled hate? I liked Tank Girl by the way, and I never read the com...uhh graphic novel.
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Seen it twice. It may not succeed. But not because it isn't good, but because it is.
Sadly, as Harry himself symbolizes, the mainstream Sci Fi fan does not want story, intriguing characters or satisfying plot. No. They want eye candy, special effects and to walk out of the theater saying 'wow I haven't seen ILM do that before!' This is why Serenity won't do so hot. It suffers from being a good movie, instead of a check-the-brain-at-the door popcorn-drool-a-thon.
Unfortunately the world is not ready for intellegent well made Sci Fi films.
Serenity is the best film of the year so far besides Batman. Sorry, but it's true. -
Peter Weller is 58.
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There actually was a line of dialogue in the episode "The Train Job" that was straight out of Blakes 7 - Jayne shoots and wounds someone, Mal says "Nice shot", and Jayne says "I was aiming for his head." That is a word-for-word exchange between Avon and Blake in B7's "Orac". However, I think it is more a tribute to the show than a ripoff, as Joss has said in past interviews that he enjoyed Blakes 7 when he was in school in England. And by the way, I've seen Serenity, and I think it's the best sci-fi movie in years. (Harry, I don't get you - you love crap like Van Helsing and Matrix Revolutions, but don't like Firefly?!!)
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damn, people. Don't take it personally when someone doesn't like his stuff. CHILL.
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A friend of mine who not only had never seen Firefly, but had never seen Buffy and Angel went with us to one of the screenings, and she came out of the movie saying, "That kicked so much ass!" The movie works BEST for fans of the tv show to be sure, but it's not true that if you don't know the show, the movie can't work at all for you.
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I've seen it twice and both times I came out thinking the same thing as the reviewer. For it to be great the whole first half needs to be reworked introducing the character's relationships to each other so when the shit hits the fan in the second half people who havne't seen the show give a fuck.
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That was an amusingly bizarre film, indeed. And while flawed, it's still so much better than 90% of the "films" released today... "She's just a girrrlll..."
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Seriously, as a fan of almost all sci-fi, Tank Girl was an unconfortable watch. Boring and insipid without the slightest sense of cool. Terrible idea, premise and movie.
Now Serinity...that is a great idea. Too bad it only lasted a short while. I'm up for several more DVD releases. -
Jun 24, 2005 12:54:55 PM CDT
Firefly was one of the best Sci-fi series I've ever seen
by smokey mcspliff
and I've seen them all. It's so brilliant and original that I just don't get it when other people, especially those who come to this site whom I would expect to be sci-fi fans, poo-poo it. Ah well, fuck it.
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You have got to be fucking kidding.
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Tank Girl was fantastic. A great cast: Lora Petty, Ice T, Iggy Pop, and Li'l Alex. Great visuals, great story, etc. It was a great Comic Book movie, especially for such a low budget movie.
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I thought Whedon made it VERY clear from day one this is the CONCLUSION. That means END for you mindless illiternate fanboys. Anything else would be stupid as fuck considering the chances of the series ever coming back are basically nill. You should be infinately grateful that you're getting everything Carnivale fans aren't - closure. Stop bitching, Serenity is a blessing the likes of which has never been seen before.
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believe me.
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It seems like box office prognostications far outweigh critical discussion on this site. That's to be expected from the "celebrity culture" fans, but considering this site is supposed to be for movie enthusiasts, it's just sad really. So I have to ask again: WHY ARE YOU ALL SO INTERESTED IN BOX OFFICE NUMBERS? I suspect you've all been sucked into the US Weekly "I'm a vicarious show biz insider" mentality. Plenty of you responded to Ban This's post. Please respond to this one too. I'm genuinely curious.
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Herc posted an article a while back saying that one of his favourite shows would have 2 characters dying - but he didn't say which show. Was he being tricky and referring to Firefly/Serenity?
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Well I can't tell you anything without spoiling anything... I've seen it twice and whatever plot things you want explained from the show you aren't going to get explained in the movie. They go into River and the Reavers but it was cooler not knowing so even that minor pay off kinda detracts from the show.
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Jun 24, 2005 1:50:08 PM CDT
Dem boned, or: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
by randomgeekhandle
I read Dem Bones' review with interest, but have to say it left me more than a little underwhelmed. I have not seen Serenity and have really developed no particular view as to whether or not it is likely to work as a film or, indeed, whether or not it will be successful from the many fan reviews I have read. They tend either to be gushing and too full of: "Oh God, please please please let the norms like it"(TM) to take seriously or - like this one - criticise the movie on the grounds that it (Whedon) dares to tell its (his)story ever so slightly differently from the 'standard Hollywood structure' as handed down through: 'Screenwriting for Opinionated Video Store Clerks' and its many imitators (McKee et al)(lol). Oh well, I guess I'll just have to see the film and decide for myself. Hey, now I feel all happy inside!
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Last night I took my imaginary friend to see it and he loved it. :)
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As far as I'm concerned Harry lost all credibility the minute he officially got in "the biz." Do you honestly think he'll ever say anything negative about Tarantino or Robert Rodriguez or anyone else he has a hard on for and wants to work with?
As for the review I think it's probably accurate. Whether the people like the story about Reavers or River will be decided at the box office. I feel Mal was always meant to be a dark anti-hero so this representation is probably more of what originally intended. Character introductions and backstory is essential to hook non-fans. Big concern. This could end up being a big commercial for the DVD. I personally love how this move seems to polarize people. They either love it or hate it. I bet there will people who see it just to say they hate it. Thing is their ticket cost the same as the fan boys. -
I saw the screening last night as well and have to say that all fans will come away with a sense of closure that we had no reasonable right to expect. It is a miracle that this movie got made and it will take another miracle for it to reach a wide enough audience to warrant future movies. More than anything I want to say that Serenity is uncompromising in it's storytelling. It offers us characters with charm and dialogue of superior quality at a time when most sci-fi is written so terribly dry it hurts. It should be seen by anyone with an open mind to remind us what fun character driven material looks like and for me was the reason I fell in love with the genre in the first place.
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They do have a scene where they reflect on the deaths, namely a funeral scene. I don't get the reviewers complaint about that, also most of the footage that looked sci-fi channelish is brought upto snuff in the actual film, I was surprised after the opening intro that said some stuff wasn't done yet that it looked as good as it did.
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Jun 24, 2005 2:39:36 PM CDT
Ban This, they're all at peoplemagazine.com reading about a
by oceansized
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One of the single most annoying thing about the reviewers on this site is that they think they understand how other people will view a film. They spend large portions of their reviews explaining how they think other folks will see these films instead of just telling me how they felt! We get a whole lot this kind of shit, and it's a waste of internet man. The only thing of value in this review is that in his opinion the film "nailed the coffin shut" but clearly Joss Whedon is a creative as hell guy, I'm betting if they wanted sequels he could write and direct some fine sequels. I've never seen the TV show, I may or may not rent the DVD's before seeing this. But I am going to bet you CAN enjoy this film on it's own.
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I don't care if it just plays over the credits, it ain't Firefly without that song. On another note, this movie will certainly make money, the power of the Browncoats will see to that. Now it ain't gonna pull Titanic numbers, but hidge fodge the wiggle stick, what movie does? This movie is clearly for the fans with some concessions made to make it accessible to the mainstream. I think the fans have been tremendously understanding of what it took to pull this off. Firefly fans roch the casbah.
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And I too felt that maybe somebody unfamiliar with the show might have a hard time keeping up and knowing who everyone is. But I honestly don't know what that experience would have been like because I am familiar with the show. If nothing else, the movie is plotted tightly and has very amusing dialogue. And honestly, is it really a bad thing that this "nailed the coffin shut," or whatever the reviewer said? There was once a time when a movie with a definite sense of closure was the norm, and that sensibility produced many more fine films that the current "bleed everything dry" one. I for one would rather have a good movie with closure than a shitty open-ended one. Why does everything have to be a damn trilogy these days? That said, I think Serenity ends in, if not an open-ended way, at least a very optimistic one.
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In his intro he doesn't exactly say he watched the entire series. It could be that he watched a few episodes and gave up (which is understandable, given all the stuff on his plate), thereby missing the best the series had to offer.
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He's wrong for me. I loved it and will watch it multiple times. I hope it does well and hope the rest of you don't rally to this negativity.
PS Dem Bones...How many franchises have you started that you know so much about how to do it...What have you ever done besides type and e-mail to Harry that he chose out of probably hundreds and Harry, were any of the reviews positive that you chose this one. -
Great, Dem Bones--now I'm going to have to deal with all your bad press.
Just kidding. Sereiously, tho--didn't he say he REALLY LIKED the movie? Would any positive reaction be too spoiler laden? Seriusly, I think this guy is just upset because it didn't end the show the way he would have wanted it too (and he is entitled to his opinion)--but guess what: YOU ARE NOT JOSS.
I saw a screening of this movie too, but I loved it. Did it end the way I would have wanted it to--No...but once again, I'm not Joss either. My only bitch was that there wasn't enough Kaylee (cause I love that girl). The Operative was very cool, Zoe is the Warrior women of our dreams, River was River (now with kung fu grip!), Jayne Cobb (the Hero of Canton)was great of course and good ol' Wash had the best lines as usual. I like that we see that River has a real job on the ship now. They still need some connective tissue to tell us how Shephard Book went planetside (maybe a voiceover)and if it is at all possible to show a little bit of galactic reaction to "the signal" (once again a montage or narration). I do agree that some re-editing might be required to amp up a couple of the more emotinoal scenes. I will definitely see it again, if only to see what will be different. -
That's "emotional scenes"..,heh.
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Saw a screening last month, loved it. I really don't get the whole "it's too dark, Mal's unlikable" thing. It's darker than the series, sure. But it's not a total downer. And there's plenty of humor all over the place. Maybe it's the kind of humor you only really get if you've watched the show, I don't know.
I do agree that the reaction to the second death seemed a little underdone, like there was a scene missing or something. But the fact that he killed someone off shouldn't come as a surprise. Joss has always maintained that it is the potential for characters to meet quick, pointless deaths that gives the story its impact. -
Jun 24, 2005 4:46:22 PM CDT
If Dem Bones is a fan of the franchise and says it's a very
by demosthenes2
Is that a fair way to critique any film anyway? From a critic's perspective, I can maybe understand a critic's desire to divorce her or himself from a TV show to judge how a movie holds up on its own. But do critics judge Return of the King in thinking about how it would seem to someone who hadn't seen Fellowship and Two Towers. Granted a lot more people saw those movies than the Firefly episodes. But I don't believe in this arrogance in needing to remove your judgment of a film from the remembrance of TV, as if the two mediums can't coexist.
A critic needs to judge a film by how he or she think the public will take to it. If a movie is of high caliber, so what if it doesn't fit what conventionally satisfies an audience? All the films that have changed culture have challenged our expectations anyway.
I also really loved the hugely dark turn Angel took in its series finale and found it ironically surprising that in its nihilistic spirit, it gave more satisfying closure (with its open-endedness to boot) to the series than Buffy's finale did. -
Joss loves to kill off someone in every finale...hmm, gotta think about that. Is it a pattern or lazyness? Have some coffee. Discuss.
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its all fox's fault. sound familiar?
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Jun 24, 2005 5:28:42 PM CDT
So nobody's responded to my 1st post besides Ban This, who a
by oceansized
I know the talkbackers are loud as hell when they disagree about something. I have to then assume I'm correct that this site has many people who are less movie aficionados, and more the type to day dream about doing lunch at Spago's and partying with Paris.
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The reviewer made some interesting points. This film is darker, and Mal is darker, than we expect. Except just as we see a new level of darkness, we see newer levels of pain and humor also. He's incredibly complex. The film is a conclusion of sorts because the tv show was cancelled befor two of the deeper themes, River and the Reavers, could be developed in the first 13 episodes. The story arcs of Firefly are wildly complex. But not too complex for a story told over time. Joss Whedon has pretty much said Serenity develops what he didn't get to yet in the tv series due to cancellation. There's not time to develop all charachters evenly because the medium has changed. If nothing happens further with the project, the story had a decent conclusion. The triology will probably happen, so there are plenty of points to develop from if there are sequels.
I saw it last night in Tampa for the first time, and have mixed feelings about how people who haven't seen the Firefly dvds will take it. On the one hand, some Serenity content might seem unimportant, confusing, or complicated. But I think one of the guys in my group is a good example of how a scifi but non-Firefly fan might feel when watching Serenity. He had seen three Firefly eps and said he didn't pay close attention then. He loved it! He said Serenity is excellent. He said loads more CGI was unnecessary because the story is character-driven completely, and a bigger budget isn't necessary. He was a big industry fan so I consider his POV pretty valid. Huge tallies at the box office? Maybe/Maybe not. Who cares. It's awesome regardless.
I have to disagree about outside US sales. There is much respect for Whedon in the rest of the English speaking world. US products are often considered dumbed down but no one says that about Whedon's works. Pretty much never. Before writing, he assumes his audience has a collective brain. His joke about "silent contemplation" if you don't like it is just his trademark humor. People often don't get that either. His name was attached to the original Buffy film. He knows exactly what critics and viewers and fans will say, and exactly how they might say it.
Anyone expecting Ep III or Batman or Superman tallies and then calling it a failure because it doesn't get them is an idiot.
It won't be a perfect movie and it won't appeal to everyone, but it's damn good. I sat there riveted the whole time. You could be laughing -- because it was funnier than I expected -- and scared or teary the next. During Ep III, however, I couldn't stop thinking about other projects I had to do in real life, got up to smoke at least once, and kept telling myself the story and effects were great, it was just the script that sucked. My beloved cast was really doing their best to make that script sound... as best as they could. In Serenity, the script did sound great and no one had to try so hard. Nothing was forced. The characters, especially Mal, is very real to the viewer. Some of the others too, albeit underdeveloped compared to the series.
Serenity will do just fine on its own. -
Ok. I just watched 3 episodes of Firfely round at a mates house and....wow that was great. From having no sound in space to no aliens (reavers excepted?) to the idea of taking a Han Solo type character and really really running with it. Exploring the reality of that universe not just writing the same basic story over again. It's a great show. I can't really see why it was cancelled (well okay, I can, but it resorts to me insulting most executives and audiences intelligences). Joss Whedon is highly regarded in the uk. Even papers like The Sun and the Star think he's great aswell as more reputable papers like The Guardian and The Times and Independent. There is a huge Audience for this movie. And that audience is there for Joss not for Firefly as we were barely given a moment to enjoy it. I know that i have converted 6 people to Angel, they just needed to go with an openmind. They are all looking forward to Serenity. So are none Buffy/Angel fans I know who haven't seen Firefly but loved the moment in the trailer when Mal shoots first! And are know getting pretty psyched for it. I really think this film is going to do fucking well abroad. From what I've heard at least.
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This film will surely flop at the box office. This concept couldn't even generate enough viewers for a second series of the tv show, the trailer looks as dull as hell, and even a lot of the Whedonites are lukewarm about the film. There's nothing here to detain non converts, and the few who go in week one will give it poor word of mouth. Hard to see what posessed anyone to greenlight this film. Sure, it may well crawl to a modest profit with dvd sales included, but nothing more. Whedoners on here talking about 'the first of a trilogy' or the series coming back after this must be on the crack pipe.
So now Whedon's rep hangs on Wonder Woman? Good luck buddy. Not a character that's ever looked like a n easy sell at the box office compared to Supes or Batman. And the problem is that it will just be yet more Whedon cheesy concepts and cutesy dialogue, so beloved by his followers- 'I just love the bit where Ditzy has just been turned back from being a wifflebot and then she says to Brad, in front of Minky and Bradley, "you suck"', and so on ad nauseum. He's just a one trick pony. I see from reviews of his X-Men comic that people are puzzled that none of the characters seem to resemble their established selves- suprise, they're now in the Whedonverse, so have to exchange cheesy teen quips, because it's all he can do. Alas, since the success of Buffy, lightning has failed to strike twice with Angel or Firefly or it's glorified tv movie successor. -
I was a teen when buffy started and trust me in explored the ideas of secondary school and growing musch better then normal show like the wonder years and such. Angel however is brilliant series. There is pathos, humour, great dialogue (not just from joss) quietly audacious plotting some great actors in amongst the not so good. Well developed characters, original ideas and universal themes explored with an off kilter sensibility. I would seriously go back and watch series 2,3,4 and 5, Whateverman. If you go with an opnemind you might just enjoy them.
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I loved Serenity - pretty much everything about it. I thought it was both darker than the tv series and incredibly funny at the same time. I am a fan of the show, so I really don't know if it will play to a larger audience, and frankly I don't care - I'm happy I got to see it, and will eagerly pay to see it again on opening day. Now, about Mal being darker than he was in the show - there are two very obvious reasons for it: (SPOILERS) Inara, the object of his unrequited love, has left him and his ship, and Book - his conscience - is also gone. Two of his best reasons to give a damn anymore are gone. Now again, I don't know if the casual viewer will get that necessarily, but it really won't matter as the casual viewer won't be comparing it to the tv show anyway. Everyone, please be thankful that there is an INTELLIGENT sci-fi movie being made - it's been a really long time!
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I really enjoyed the movie so I'm not trying to bash it but there were obvious flaws to this film.
Saying that Mal totally changed because Inara and Book were gone stupid. They barely have any real point to this movie at all except one dies and the other is bait.
There is no way that those two are the only reason he acted the way he did through out the show.
Nice try though to explain that error on Joss' part.
Now do you want to explain the weak ass funeral at the end?
Oh and for all you people that say Serenity is better the Revenge of the Sith remember...crack kills. -
Man you've got a huge inferiority complex EvilMonkey01 - he was tell you HIS OPINION! Not tell you what to think - idiot.
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I think anyone should like what I like, if not, they are ghey. I like sucking cok, so there.
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Jun 25, 2005 2:54:46 AM CDT
I am posting this so I can link to it later and brag about my pr
by plutonick
Serenity is going to be a big success. Hey, I am a greek guy, living in greece and I had to order the DVDs from UK. I loved them.
So when the film comes out and blasts the box office I can brag about how I knew this would happen, and point to this little comment!
'Yeah, that went well!' -
... I'm predicting that this flick won't do too well in the box office. I'm also predicting that I'm going to enjoy it and possible buy it on DVD. So there! *pffft*
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Jun 25, 2005 6:28:38 AM CDT
You completely lost me from 'the Reavers...one of the less i
by raw_bean
Sometimes I wonder if humanity is really all one species, people think so differently.
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Yes, there are lots of movies people drooled over that I hated. Serenity will not be one of them.
But really, you need to get a beta before you post your reviews. -
Jun 25, 2005 11:51:57 AM CDT
So, Outside of flaming people, is the discussion over on this ta
by bones
Just wondering...Y'know?
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And I still like cock! SO there!
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Jun 26, 2005 3:39:13 PM CDT
"all these people on the whedonesque board are raving about hat
by darthhomercles
Because it did? Book's death was noble and, frankly, expected. It was a scene that made you think the characters weren't safe, but didn't make you feel it. Wash's death leads right into the final battle in the movie and it's quick and harsh nature shocks you for a moment. The entire time during the final battle I kept thinking, "Is anyone going to survive this thing?" The tension was palpable. I don't know if it would have been there without Wash's death. I would have expected everyone to live no matter how many hits they took. It upped the stakes big time, and I knew about the two deaths beforehand. Without that tension in the last act, it's just spectacle; there's no emotional involvement.
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Jun 26, 2005 6:06:21 PM CDT
I hate jackasses like Dem Bones. Easily the worst of fandom: TH
by lordenigma
Just because you are fan. It does not mean you understand. If you dont understand the importance of River and the Reavers in the original series. You fucking totally missed the point. Then you post an early review talking shit about something, that you are two friggin brainless to understand? Speaking of clueless. Knowles, you bag of fun, you can appreciate shitty Asian cinema of varying varieties. Yet, something truly original in the realm of Sci-Fi, does nothing for you? Fucking geek.
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Jun 26, 2005 7:29:52 PM CDT
Interesting: "As good as the film is, I do not expect it will br
by llghtst0rmer
Kind of like saying, "I don't think all those TV commercials for Revenge of the Sith really succeeded in doing anything, other than maybe getting more people to watch the film."
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Jun 26, 2005 8:06:12 PM CDT
I think a better analogy, Lightstormer, is to say "Revenge of th
by bones
...That being what is now called Episode IV...
I have to admit that I liked the pilot episode of Firefly and "Out of Gas" more than the "Serenity" screening I saw. Good thing I already own the DVDs or I might have to go buy them. And now that someone has named the second Big Damn Death--I gotta admit that I love being able to watch Wash--who was probably my favorite character on the show. But now it sucks, because all of his humor and coolnes is nothing...because you know he dies. And by the way--Revenge of the Sith was shit in comparison to the old Star Wars. Total video-game crap. At least Batman Begins and Land of the Dead were fun. Gotta love opinions, right? -
How is it we were blessed with a Serenity talkbalk without a Daddy Tones post?
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I'm not a Whedon fan at all. I don't like the clever little pitter patter that he writes and I don't think he writes women very well but I really enjoyed Firefly when I watched it on DVD and can't wait for the movie. Tried to get passes to both the Chicago previews and failed miserably. I'm hoping he doens't really kill of 2 people since I can't think of a single charcter I could do without.
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Were the DVD sales strong? I haven't seen it sell at all at the Best Buy I work at. Seems like we've had the same 4 copies just sitting there since it came out. Family Guy and Chappelle's Show DVD sales I'd call rabid but I haven't seen any numbers on Firefly's sales, so maybe i'm wrong.
I still think the movie will be extremely lucky to break even. The fans of the show are too few in number to generate enough ticket sales, imho. Plus, for the casual moviegoer I think the stigma of the source show only lasting 6 episodes gives it 2 strikes right off the bat. Now adays the movie has to be special to get people to go, judging by the ticket slump. -
Because you can buy the DVDs on Amazon for half the price you can get them at Best Buy.
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Jun 27, 2005 3:49:47 AM CDT
"Plus, for the casual moviegoer I think the stigma of the source
by darthhomercles
Like POLICE SQUAD! did? Yeah, that sank that NAKED GUN movie real good. And for the record, there were 12 aired episodes of the series, not 6. "Now adays the movie has to be special to get people to go, judging by the ticket slump." And the fact that people found this failed television series worthy of a movie doesn't make it special? 'Cause failed television series are made into movies all the time.
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looks and sounds ghey. Can;t imagine a gheyer title for a sf movie. Ghey ghey ghey ghey ghey. Did I mention this was ghey?
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Currently the Firefly DVD set is in the #5 position over at Amazon.com. Sounds pretty good to me.
And those few bashers saying that Serenity is going to flop like Harry in a kiddie pool are the ones smoking crack. The film will do modestly successful business to due good word of mouth, enough to warrant another sequel or two. -
I agree about the cheaper prices but the vast majority of people still shop brick and mortar. take your pick of reasons: resistance to online shopping, s&h charges, reluctance of using cc, same day acquisition...hell, most people don't even realize they can get dvd's cheaper online. most customers are incredibly dumb anyway.
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Because, it will be interesting to see where JW would like to take the story next...another Civil War? An alien force that causes the two sides to become one (I hope not)? All mayhem and deaths aside--I want to see what kind of a story he wants to tell...
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