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REVENGE OF THE SITH TalkBack #2!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Hey folks, Harry here with the 2nd Addition of the STAR WARS EPISODE 3: REVENGE OF THE SITH talkback... Well, let's see as of 3:20pm Saturday - the news is that Episode 3 has pulled in $85 million in the first two days, set the all time record for single day worth of box-office... and in less theaters than the previous record-holder. The Box Office Bonanza has fueled further Star Wars film speculation, figuring that the flannel one's inate greed will push him to the well again and again and one last time. Some are pointing to Roger Ebert's end comments as proof - but Roger doesn't seem to grasp that Fox hasn't a say in the decision to move forward. Then the Houston Chronicle found Gary Kurtz to comment on Lucas' claims about having never said it'd be 12 or 9 films and here's what Gary said - CLICK HERE!
With over 15,000 votes on IMDB's ratings - REVENGE OF THE SITH is hitting an 8.3 out of their scale of 10. RottenTomatoes critics have it at a 7.4 with an 83% Fresh Rating with 151 critics out of 183 seeming to think it better than bad... to great. There seems to be lots of women dressed in Slave Leia outfits attending screenings - which is proof that fandom has a right to exist. And that BurgerKing SithSense.com thing is just downright creepy. Oh - and is typical Talkback is ragging hot and heavy on the film. So all is right in the world. Here ya go folks... more space to rap about a long time ago in a galaxy far far away...
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Seeing it today!
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I just got done watching this soulless two hour cartoon. LUCAS, YOU OWE ME SEVEN BUCKS!
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Better than Jedi!
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...has...a...different opinion than me.
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seen 4 times since the midnight screening , dissapointed by no differences in digital version as was claimed.
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What theater is still only $7.00?
Oh, I guess matinees are cheaper.
What the Hell did ebert say anyway? I haven't read it.
I thought the movie was pretty good, and parts of it are awesome, but I can't help but wonder if even the haters wanted it to redeem the franchise a little, and that's why it's scoring so well on RT. I mean people go online to bitch much more often than to praise.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've contsructed.
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I'd now like to see Lucas remake the OT. Have Christansen paly Luke, and maybe someone like Johnny Knoxville play Han Solo...
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and i generally hate everything. i've seen it 3 times in as many days, and i must say: it's got great replay value.
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Were there any differences other than clarity on digital screens? I remember reading something about an extra Bagobah scene and other "Extras" for the digital projections...that was untrue, then?
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May 21, 2005 4:43:52 PM CDT
How many of these Slave Leias weighed in at less that 220 lbs?
by nice marmot
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To killing a room full of prepubescent Jedis?
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this movie has made me love star wars even more if that was posible..a story about a boy who became a man who turned evil and was then redemed by his children..a great story..28 years...6 movies....1 story....thank you mr Lucas..you have made me a very happy man.
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You lucky bastard! All the slave Leias at my screening weighed in excess of 300lbs! Though to be fair, they looked positively petite next to all the 440lb stormtroopers and Darth Vaders. I'm beginning to think that "The 501st" is a reference to weight.... Either that, or the number of times they masturbated to 220lb Slave Leias.
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"InZodWeTrust
I'd now like to see Lucas remake the OT. Have Christansen paly Luke, and maybe someone like Johnny Knoxville play Han Solo..." You better be joking. -
Was Temura Morrison's magically floating head. Dodgy CGI amd wooden acting. Lucas...you had me at hello.
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... It's so that I can convince my 9yr old and 6yr old kids that going to see Star Wars will be fun!!!!
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The whole last hour was dependent on the fact that Anakin's turn would work. It didn't. Remember the way look was chopping at Darth Vader at the end of Jedi? Then he decides not to turn after he was so angry. Anakin's turn should have been the same except he decides to join the Emperor. Instead we get.."what have I done?...uh okay I'll join you...now I'll kill some kids and complain about the way of the universe for another hour"
He was just a punk kid with annoying complaints...not the greatest film villain ever. It didn't give any weight to anything that happens in the rest of the movie...or all of the movies for that matter.
George had a chance to make something great and he ended up making something just okay. -
sorry, typing in anger means spelling errors.
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The one with the king? That thing is indeed creepy as all get-out. But I've never liked that king in the first place...
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Wonderful film and it was shoehorned perfectly between AOTC and New Hope.
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and I've seen it four times so far already. It's absoultely fucking spectacular.
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I want a giant lizard ,but could not afford to feed it horses. I expected a lot from this film and it delivered. Nice one george
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absolutely, even...
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I can't believe how everyone accepts this so easily. Yeah it was fun...but Brilliant? Spectacular? He dropped the ball again guys... he didn't drop it as bad as the other movies and this movie has it's great moments no doubt. I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan and I just can't accept that this punk is Darth Vader...
Vader saying
"Nooooooooo!" is the worst decision in film history. I prefer Greedo shooting first to that. -
...and best summer action film in a long ass time. It had a real story, decent acting and the best FX and editing of any film ever. If the dialogue seemed bad, it's because the characters themselves aren't Shakespearean poets. So people who hate the movies or the prequels or Star Wars in general, I'm sorry. I for one had a kick ass time for 3 hours with a bunch of other SW geeks and afterward, yes, I did get laid. And not in my parents' basement. They have an attic.
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You'd be there "FIRST" in line, and you know it.
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Yes, there will be more Star Wars feature films...it is virtually guaranteed, regardless of whether they are produced in 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years.
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May 21, 2005 5:10:06 PM CDT
That's right, I want to see a guy from "Jackass" play one of the
by forestal
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but i'll bite. What would you have prefered Vader to scream, shitheap? Your criticisms are fucking weak. You don't even have anything specific. I, for one, do not believe that you are this "HUGE Star Wars fan." You're the punk, and I defy you to produce some real criticism.
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In the end this film was only slightly better than the first two. The painful dialogue was still there, with about eight nearly identical scenes taking place in luxury apartments in the sky, with a backdrop of the city and all its flying cars. Over and over and over...
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Vader should have just made the room explode (or implode) like Akira or something. Noooooo! was almost comedic. The audience I was watching this with (twice!) laughed both times. Not the feeling you want when Darth Vader is born. My true criticism is this. The build was great. The first hour was pure Star Wars...when I was watching the 1st hour I thought "This is better than Jedi! I love this" After Mace Windu fights the movie takes a turn that doesn't hold up because Anakin doesn't really change. He just does bad things that make little to no sense. If we had seen his anger take over (like the dark side is supposed to do) the rest of the film would have been much more effective. My problem is that he doesn't seem at all to be Darth Vader. This is supposed to be the most horrible man in the Galaxy...not a boy with issues
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and see that this movie is good, (like matrix 2 was), but that's it; that as part of a trilogy it ain't that good. realistically, anyone who watched all the moveies 1-6 in that order will think the second three (4-6) are weak; they're not, but if we're honest, darth vader is the worst darth ever. i still think that darth maul was the best ever. as for new vader, why don't they deck him out like grievous etc...
this movie was good, but it wasn't what the fans wanted, and it wasn't what the public wanted. $400 million.
which is rubbish for a movie of this size -
On the plus side, if more SW movies get made, Lucas may be too old to direct them and may have to settle for producer while someone with a steadier hand moves to the helm. Any nominations?
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What an incredibly beautiful yet soulless movie. I think what I loved the most was the murdering of the Jedi's by the Clones...did anyone else not think it was too damny easy? I mean, this is THE climactic event of the six movies, this is how Palpatine gets power--by removing the one group that totally stands in his way, and in the space of sixty seconds they all get shot in the back, except for Yoda, who looked more disturbed as a puppet in Empire when Luke was being a sniveling brat.
I'm so glad these abominations are over. For a while I thought I was watching Blade 2 with all the crappy CGI. Ian was the only good thing about the movie, and even some of his stuff was lame. And Hayden Christensan...I mean...we thought Mark Hamill was a horrible wooden actor?
Bottom line-- I wanted to like/love these movies as much as you guys. But they aren't movies...they're just glitzy cartoons. This one was just as mediocre as the other two, I can't believe all the people giving it good reviews. -
He's right in an odd way. I still love a lot of it. But I think you all like it way too much.
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Did anyone else think that the 3 Jedi accompanying Mace to arrest Palpatine were completely useless with a lightsaber? If they had to die without even moving, at least Lucas could have added some Matrix-esque bullet-time to show that Palpaltine moved way too fast for them to react. Otherwise, those were the most useless Jedi ever.
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I don't think Lucas will hand the movies to anyone else..there his babies...he aint bothered about giving the t.v shows to other people...but the movies he will take to the grave..
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May 21, 2005 5:25:10 PM CDT
saw it: boring fuckin movie...people were yawning loudly in the
by bigdickmcgee
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Anakin seemed pretty fucking angry throughout the last half of the film. You can tell because of all the angry shouting. Should Vader have screamed out "YESSSS!" or "PADME!!!!" or something? Give one better alternative. Vader should have made the room explode? Vader using the force to destroy the room and droids wasn't enough for you? Hate to break it to you, idiot, but ROTS is not Akira. You didn't get any of that Frankenstien feeling from Vader's birth? You do realize that ANH takes place decades after ROTS, don't you? I guarantee you won't be or act the same in twenty years. Anakin doesn't really change, huh? Sure, going from a hero for the Republic and saving lives to killing little kids. Yeah, such a small insignificant change. Which of the "bad things" he did didn't make any sense? You've got nothing. You want to have something, you're struggling, but you've got nothing.
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I think ROTS had some perfect moments but the flaws are so HUGE they completey undermin the whole film, Anakins turn just doesn't work.
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May 21, 2005 5:28:31 PM CDT
the positive response to ROTS will go down as the worst case of
by industrykiller
A terrible film. And what is apparent now is that nobody actually cared if it was any good.. As long as Anakin somehow ended up as Vader the stupid fucking masses will spoon feed themselves whatever is in front of them. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for taking part in the wholesale desicration of what coul have been one of the greatest stories ever told.
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The fact that you would resort to insults and anger shows your lack of intelligence. I see why you bought Anakin's turn so easilty.
I'm sure other people (as I've read in almost every review, positive and negative) think Anakin turned too quickly. If you don't think Vader screaming NOOO! at the end was cheesy...wow. You're kidding yourself my friend. -
It's better than 1 & 2 but overall the story really didn't do it for me, and George's fascination with ridiculous droid humor just annoys me. The VFX were spectacular with only one or 2 shots that felt unfinished. The editing on the other hand, needed some work in my opinion, because the pace really lagged and there were way too many beauty shots of ships and cities and stuff, followed by conversations that literally seemed to be waiting for us to arrive before they began. A good re-cut on the film would have those conversations starting over the beauty shots and then we arrive while the characters are mid-conversation. And yet, I felt like there was actually 2 movies worth of material in there had things been handled differently. I think the biggest mistake was starting the saga with Anakin as an 8-yr-old. The story of Attack of the Clones should have been the story for Ep I, with Anakin starting out as a young man and already a Jedi in training. Ep 2 could have been his turn and Ep 3 his transformation into Vader. This is all just my opinion, but I just feel like the movies as a trilogy spent too much time on inconsequential fluff (e.g. Jar Jar, General Greivous, Jango Fett) and rushed through the monumental moments like the birth of Luke and Leia, Yoda going into exile, the hiding of the kids, Padme's death, even Anakin's turn to the Dark Side. And in the end, when you go back to Ep 4 and 5, things don't jive. ("I don't remember owning any droids." "Obi-Wan? I haven't been called that since long before you were born." Luke on Dagobah: "There's something familiar about this place." and on and on.) It also occurred to me after seeing Ep 3 that Darth Maul, Count Dooku, and General Greivous should have all been one character. How cool would it have been to have Sidious resurrect Darth Maul as a cyborg (sort of a beta test for what he would finally get right with Vader), and keep the coolest character from Ep 1 throughout the prequels? As it sits now, all 3 of these potentially standout characters were wasted and the end result is that the narrative drive of the prequel trilogy is somewhat diffused because we didn't have a clear "bad guy" driving it. Yes, Palpatine / Sidious was running the show from Ep 1, but he was such an indirect presence for most of the story that he doesn't fill the role that Vader did in the OT, (which is the "face" of the opponent). Just imagine if Darth Maul could have done that, while transforming into the killer cyborg Greivous was supposed to be? Maybe then he wouldn't have gone out like a complete pussy. Anyway... my 2 cents. I'm just a nut for the original trilogy, plain and simple.
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Lucas has only directed 4 out of the 6. Therefore, he has the power to hand them over to others, especially once he's too old to take the helm.
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The only two fights that I didn't feel were rushed (speaking of the PT, that is) were Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Maul and Obi-Wan vs. Anakin. Maybe not bullet-time, Jubba, but at least they could have put up a better fight.
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the three jedi that went with mace; there seemed no point, since they were obviously rubbish level 1 jedi. what annoys me is that lucas, for the 'dramatic' sections, still wants more CGI than exists in most movies, just to make it look pretty. What ever happened to dark space? if someone has something to say, then what does the background matter? according to lucas, it means everything...
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This movie had MUCH better acting than TPM and AOTC, plus (just like the second half of AOTC) this actually felt like a REAl Star Wars movie!
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My reation: yuck. I felt the story, the acting, the script, and the emotional payoffs were poorly executed in every way imaginable, which is now typical of Lucas. This episode even ruined the original trilogy for me, since I now don't give a shit about Luke or Leia. So sad, really. Lucas could've hit it out of the park, even with the cringeworthy lines sprinkled here and there, but it's now obvious to me that Lucas has no clue how to tell a good story. His writing is so clumsy and hackneyed it's painful to behold on-screen. I'm sure it sounded great in his head when he wrote it, but there's a reason professional script editors exist, and it's sad Lucas didn't hire one before shooting began. The Brittany Spears generation seems to love this film, which is cool, but no one can convince me that Lucas put forth his best effort in making this film. In six months, moviegoers will look back on "Sith" with the same contempt and disappointment they now feel for the first two prequels. Lucas could've been remembered as a great filmmaker. Instead, he'll be remembered as pretty good.
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One of the main goals of Revenge of the Sith was to make it all fit together. The last film of the prequel series, writer/director George Lucas needed to make sure everything would connect to A New Hope and beyond. In that respect, Episode III achieves its motives.
By far the best of the current three films, Revenge is a slickly produced film and while the acting has improved, the Velveeta cheesy dialogue remains. I understand what Lucas was doing in both The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones; he was telling an epic tale of how a democracy can be easily manipulated into a dictatorship. He needed those two films to explain all that would happen in Revenge and beyond. And I accept that his direction to be uninspired, and his words a bit silly and embarrassing. Like I said, it -
dies rubbishly, and doesn't do anything. but after all six movies, everyone i know agrees that darth maul, (double-bladed sabre and all), was by far the best baddie in the series, (taking away his lucas-esque completely rubbish death). I don't know anyone that thinks his pacing while waiting isn't the best bit in ep I
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I agree. Give it six months and the film will be looked at as a sub par entry in the series. It's official the the prequels as a whole are a lame attempt to bring back the magic that was Star Wars...now that they are all over. It's official.
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You can't even answer a simple question, even when it's repeated twice. I'm not sure why you think I "bought" Anakin's turn so "easilty." You like to make hyperbolic statements with no support. My point is that you have no real criticisms, just obtuse feelings that you cannot define. Your criticism, in fact. is exactly like 90% of the criticism that Star Wars always gets. As for Mace's posse getting killed so quickly? There are always only two Sith lords. Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Mace Windu have NEVER fought a Sith lord before. Hence he makes quick work of them. And the most powerful Jedi, Windu, comes the closest to defeating him.
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thay impassionately, all six star wars films really aren't that good. for sfx, lotr and various others win, for story, virtually every other movie wins, and for sheer charisma, (apart from ford), sw isn't even close. in fact, take away the 'best film ever mark, and i think "flash gordon" is the best sci-fi movie of the era, (becaues it personalises everything). oh, and before you say, i've seen ep 3 twice, and like all six; just realise that for 90% of the population, they're not the be-all and end-all of film
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But still not as good as the OT. Just about any scene involving Padme and Anakin was full of wooden acting and stunted dialogue. However, we did get some awesome battles, lightsaber duels...and we finally got some backstory on Palpatine. And RicCage, Anakin's conversion did work. The moment he lopped Windu's hand off and saw him die, he knew he'd crossed the point of no return. He could never go back. The only thing left to do was pledge himself to Palpatine and pray that he could save Padme. I guess all that killing screwed him up, because...drumroll...Is Anakin Skywalker gonna hafta choke a bitch? Anyway, it was at least decent. Give it some time and see if that consensus holds.
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I think a lot of you guys are missing. The people that are "dissing" the films wanted to like them as much as you guys did. It is a *beautiful* story, it's just not told very well, and that's what makes it so dissapointing for this fan. And as far as the acting being so much better than the TPM and AOTC...yes, it was a lot better. But that doesn't mean it was good. Didn't any of you see those pieces of excrement?
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And they're certainly not meant to be. If you honestly expect that, and I think a lot of you do, then you are obviously going to be disappointed. These films aren't like Magnolia or whatever. None of these actors are striving for an Oscar. Lucas isn't shooting for Best Director. None of these characters are meant to be perfect. Anakin's reasons for turning to the Dark Side are "muddled" and "not logical?" No shit, Sherlock. Since when has the descent into evil ever been logical?
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when Obi wan said that...it sent shivers up my spine....I don't give a rats arse what anyone says...i loved the movie...and thats all that matters to me.
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I'm a brit who saw it on opening night, so for a different perspective: Read on! *********First of all, enjoyed the movie thoroughly! Here are the few niggles I had - but then I didn't make it, did I? :-)
1. Mace Windu seemed to be a bloater this time around, Samuel L could have at least lost some weight! I don't buy fat jedi.
2. BECAUSE the film was good, it makes the first two look like they were written and directed by a completely different person and stand out like a sore thumb. Here's hoping for massive edits for the DVD box set releas!
3. The 'NOOOOOOOO!' was a bit badly done, but I'm not sure why people keep mentioning this 'dying of a broken heart' crap for Padme like it's an actual quote. The version I saw, the droid only said 'she's lost the will to live, there's nothing we can do'. If your going to quote, pay attention to whats being said.
4. And finally, to the complete morons on the first talkback trying to find some complicated sub-plot conspiricy to Padme's 'large tummy' after her giving birth. You total fucktards, pregnant bellies don't just 'dissapear' like Obi-fucking-wan Kenobi; they take time! Get out more and meet some women for christs' sakes! -
...at the anakin-padme lines that went something like this.
Anakin: You are so beautiful
Padme: I am only beautiful because i love you so much
Anyway, i didnt go for the 'love' story. I enjoyed the movie but was disappointed with the Padme character. Padme turned from a powerful politician in the first movie to a simpering idiot in the third. She died of a broken heart, give me a break... -
friends and I laughed through most of it, along with most of the theatre. a few moments where one person tried to applaud a "cool" moment, but no one joined in. not even worth an argument here, it's just bad. the only redeeming moments were the death sequence for the Jedi, and every single reference to the original trilogy in terms of sets and locales, though all they did was make me want to pop in Episode IV. yawn. move on.
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Should have been Eps I-III.
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If you don't mind, I'd like to address the question you asked RicCage. Mr_Miracle, you wrote, "Anakin seemed pretty fucking angry throughout the last half of the film... Should Vader have screamed out "YESSSS!" or "PADME!!!!" or something? Give one better alternative." All right, I'll give you an alternative: he doesn't scream
anything. In fact, the scene is nearly silent. Vader starts breathing in his mask, rises to his feet, and turns toward the Emperor. He stares at the Emperor for a sad, prolonged moment, then gathers himself and bows his head toward his new master, who grins in smug triumph. This scenario would've evoked a sense of great loss, of great tragedy, without Vader saying or shouting anything. And this is just an idea off the top of my head, one of hundreds that would've been more gripping than Lucas's "NOOOOO!!!" And I'm not the only person who feels this way. -
When Padme is combing her hair we are supposed to laugh at how silly they are acting. I mean, Padme gets him to say that she is beautiful to him only because he is in love with her... then he all of a sudden catches it and nervously says "That's not exactly what I meant." It is corny but funny, on purpose. At first I thought that was a scene that didn't belong at all but after seeing the movie a few times it has grown on me, but as comedy relief. I thought the rest of their moments together worked very well. Their best was their first and last scenes together.
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Luckily, I survived to see how the saga came to an end (as did we all). I realized that it wasn't the prequel trilogy I wanted to see at first and I was dissapointed,. But then I realized my notions of the prequels were promulgated through other interenet nerds with too much free time on their hands who shaped my minds of the prequels at such a young age. Now, all warts aside, I'm happy with the story of the Prequels. I'm a little less than enthused about the actual scripts (although SITH's writing is better). I'm the weird guy who likes Phantom Menace better than Clones, maybe its because the time leading up to MEnace was much more magical and fun than it was leading up to AOTC (which was more cynical). I didn't know the prequels were going to "suck" when MENACE came out, so I had huge expectations. I went through anti-Prequels phase about a year or so after, but I cant not lot Star Wars, its in my blood to love these movies. And I do. No matter how irritating some little things are, they're still fun movies. Well, except for Revenge of the Sith. But the first part is fun, and the rest (aside from a few of PAdme's lines and some other little things near the end) is just amazing. When the DUEL begins, I get chills. I've seen the movie twice, and I enjoyed it much better the 2nd time (the first time we had to settle for a theater with about 1/4 of the speakers out). But the best thing about these movies, is about how they rattled our imaginations before their release with so much fan speculation. Mentally I had 3 versions of each movie based on rumors and internet sources, and they were all good movies in my head. Just the excitement that led up to each movie, i wouldnt trade for anything. Thanks for the time Lucas, now get on Indy 4, the TV shows, and those artsy fartsy movies youre promising everyone.
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May 21, 2005 6:13:25 PM CDT
Episode 3 can be played along with the new DMB album like Flyod/
by warp11
Episode 3 can be played along with the new DMB album like Floyd/The Wall!
The new Dave Matthews album is in sync with Revenge of the Sith! Just like Pink Floyd -
May 21, 2005 6:13:53 PM CDT
"The flannel one's inate greed will push him to the well again a
by liberty valance
I never fail to be surprised by the hypocritical contempt and jealousy for those who are more successful than we could ever dream of being. If you or I owned a commodity as revered and lusted after by the general public as Star Wars we would milk it for as much as we could for as long as we could. You can never have enough money and anyone who claims otherwise is a godfucking liar. We are all whores for money. We work shitty jobs for asshole bosses with co-workers we despise for one reason and one reason only: MONEY. I don't care how much you have in the bank or how financially comfortable you are, if someone offers you more there ain't a person here who would turn it down. ROTS made $50 million on a fucking THURSDAY. So if you owned this franchise you wouldn't repeatedly cash in on that kind of demand, huh? BULL FUCKING SHIT. Spare me your idealistic ramblings about artistic integrity and being content with what you have. Get every penny you can, George, because every last fucking one of us would do the same thing in your place, even though they lack the balls to admit it. Fucking hypocrites.
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Needs to take their meds. The pacing was hyper-fast. Also, someone here said that the people giving the movie shit WANTED to like it... bullshit. I would guess that 90% of the people who are trashing the movie went in with the same predisposition as they have for the last two. To hate it. The funny thing is that if you look at the reviews for the movie and polled fan reactions, the movie is getting great support. The only place we see this kind of horseshit bashing is from a few critics and the usual Internet crowd. The general public has no idea that you people exist.
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May 21, 2005 6:21:04 PM CDT
The flannel one's inate greed will push him to the well again an
by warp11
The only reason this movie is making so much more money is because it's a better film than the previous prequels.
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May 21, 2005 6:32:01 PM CDT
I still think Hayden looked way to skinny wearing that Darth Vad
by rolling_stone
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I have a good friend whose currently living in Baghdad, Iraq, working on the reconstruction (or demolition, depending on how you look at it ;-). Anyway
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Just watch. George will 'suddenly' realize that he had one more bit of story to tell to wrap things up, and keeping in line with his whole 'one story' thing, he'll make one more film to push it to an even Seven, and claim that it was meant to be a 'Perfect Seven' chapters all along, like Rowling's doing with Potter. I'm telling you, we'll see an announcement within a few years at the most.
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May 21, 2005 6:47:10 PM CDT
I don't like prequel haters. They're coarse and rough, and irrit
by togmeister
ROTS owns. All the haters seem to be bashing this time is the 'Nooooooo' scene. If you have to beat the movie with a stick that limp, you know you're in trouble. ROTS lasts for 140 minutes, that line for 5 seconds. A million dollars minus a dollar is still a million dollars. Loved OB1's deadpan 'so uncivilized' as he throws the blaster away after capping Grievous, a nice counterpoint to the scene in Star Wars where he gives Luke the lightsaber ('not as clumsy or random as a blaster'). And Mcdiarmid snarling 'I AM the Senate!' was pimp. One thing i haven't seen discussed anywhere yet. Just after Anakin kills Dooku and releases the Chancellor, he says something like 'remember what you told me about your mother and the Sand People?'. I'm convinced that there's a Tusken Raider 'howl' on the soundtrack at that point. Anyone else catch that or is it just me?
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During the scene at the opera house, where Palpatine is recounting the story of Darth Plageis, it seems to me that he's dropping heavy hints that he was responsible for creating Anakin. It's the part where he's talking about how a powerful enough master of the dark side could manipulate Midichloreans to create life. As he's saying this, Palps looks at Anakin, meaningfully.
I was convinced ROTS was going to drop the bombshell of Palpatine ultimately being the one responsible for Anakin's birth (remember Shmi Skywalker telling Qui Gon that she fell pregnant without having concieved a child with anyone). And we didnt find out who Sifo Dyas was either, although I suppose it was obviously Dooku or Palpatine. -
it was pretty damn bad. The opening 10 minutes were nice enough, and Anakin reduced to a spitting, snarling, burnt-alive rabid-dog of a person was a great three-minutes, but the surrounding two-hours were abysmal in ways I didn't think possible. Every time someone opened their mouth, I could feel my good will evaporating. This is one of those times you just can't trust RottenTomatoes... if you actually READ those "good" reviews, most of 'em damn it with faint praise. "It didn't completely suck," is the overriding thought, and Ebert's "You don't go to see STAR WARS for witty dialogue or believable characterization" was the worst kind of critical rationalizing. He basically trashes it for eight paragraphs, then gives it three-and-a-half stars (as good as THE PIANIST or ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF A SPOTLESS MIND) for "creating and populating a world of his [Lucas's] own." Well then, I guess Henry Darger is the greatest novelist of all time. But we know that's not true. Creating the world isn't the hard part, creating believable characters is, and that's what matters. Escapism is escapism and should have a level of fun, but don't ask me to turn off my brain to enjoy it. All in all, I didn't like it, but I can't say I was disappointed -- for that to have happened, I would have to had to expect something more than what I got.
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this my review of the film
With added thoughts.....
This review contains spoilers.
The Darth side of the Moon
After watching Star Wars logo blast into outer space and see the scrawl which reads Episode three revenge of the sith, George Lucas drops us into Anakin and obi-wan's resuce mission for the kidnapped Senator Palpatine. Who has been kidnapped by General Grievous with the connivince of Count Dooku.
Obi-wan senses a trap and of course he is right, but this not a trap laid by Grievious or Dooku, this was a trap laid by Palpatine/Darth Sidous, for one reason only: to allow sidious complete control of the Sith, after Dooku is killed by anakin, Palpatine vows to hunt down Greivious and destroy him. Obi-wan does this, which give palpatine time to unveil his grand plan to bring down the republic(which is crumbling anyway) and set up his own sith led facist empire.
Mace Windu notices that Palpatine and Anakin are become more friendly and lets it be known, that he no longer trusts Anakin. But Obi-wan still does and there is a crucial, in which Yoda warns him that they have misread anakins prophecy.
Obi-wan propells anakin further under the contol of Palpatine by having Anakin spy on the Sith, but Anakin is doing the opposite, ie he is spying on the Jedi
Also noticing changes in Anakin is his wife Padme. Anakin is having dark dreams about what will happen to his wife, ie she dies after giving birth to Luke and Leia.
Revenge of Sith looks spectacular and for that Lucas deserves full marks and indeed despite the awfulness of the previous movies, they at least looked good execpt that they were boring rubbish.
The action sequences are fantastic and obi-wan and annakins final lightsabre battle is a glorious thing to behold set against the backdrop of the volcanic planet mustafar.
Visually speaking then this film is alive with color, yet the clunking sound you hear through the movie is the screenplay, I know, I know, this is the movie where it all comes together, so in that way it is entrirely predictable, yet once again this movie proves that Lucas cant write dialouge to save his skin, the dialouge between Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman is wince inducing.
There is only one actor on show here and that's Ian McDiarmid. Lucas' Palpatine creation will go down in history as one of the greatest villains in the history of Cinema, if not the greatest, watching McDiarmid as Palpatine is something to behold. On the one hand he wears a mask of benignity, that hides an utterly demonic face on the other. His performance pulls you in.
Although Hayden Christensen has improved the angry scowl thing is not effective and the jury is still out on Natalie portman and has yet to come in any time soon. Lee and Jackson have nothing to do in this movie really except die horrible deaths.
So all in all a visually spectacular film but in the final analyses this is a very empty film storywise. And while this movie will be a shoo-in for all the effects at the oscars next year dont expect to see Lucas at the podium for any of the writing awards.
Just one other thing we are expected to believe that this is a young man with love, hate, anger and rage swirling around inside him but you wouldnt know that from Christensen's slightly wooden demeanour.
The brillance of the originals remain and maybe lucas should not have returned to direct or at least given the writing job to someone else.
Despite my annoyance of the dialouge and the blandness of the screenplay, lucas has made a scifi film leagues ahead and worlds apart from anything out there currently, we will never see its like again, so enjoy the thrill and spectacle.
Star Wars episode Three gets 4/5.
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Okay, so Yoda has learnt from Qui-Gon how to become one with the force and communicate with the living. Obi-Wan learns how to do it and therefore talks to Luke even after he dies in the originals. So, at the end of Jedi we see Yoda, Obi-Wan and... Anakin?? When's Anakin surposed to have learned how to do this?
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May 21, 2005 6:57:38 PM CDT
Whoop- I meant to add SPOLIER in big capital letters to that...
by the manic
Because, y'know that was the only part of the movie that neither I nor seemingly anyone else was expecting.
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One of the most funny things about these talkbacks is how some of the posters refer to the others is ways like "you people are fat and pale and never get laid" or "nobody in the world cares about what you people say on here" or "everyone on here is just a bunch of Internet nerds." While that may be true that some here are in fact like that, you are pretty much pointing the finger at yourself since you are posting here.
It's almost as annoying to read that as the people who think that they're going to win some sort of a prize or something for posting in a thread first... -
As people have said earlier, all that needed to be done to strengthen ROTS along with the AOTC/TPM was to spread the events of ROTS into AOTC.... When I read the ROTS novel, so much more was explained and the pacing was soooo much better. That is the main fault of ROTS. Points 'a' 'b' 'c' 'd' were all great, but the journey/pacing between was rushed and not fleshed out enough because too much was left to be crammed into ROTS. ***** NOVEL: pages 76-77, 84-85 (1) ***** In the lightsaber duel between Anakin and Dooku, Sidious and Anakin have a post martem talk on right/wrong. Sidious, "Have you ever noticed that the Jedi way is not always the right way? It wasn't wrong, Anakin. It may be not the Jedi way, but it was right. Perfectly natural--he took your head; you wanted revenge. And your revenge was justice." The Sidious goes on to act as a fatherly conspirator w/ Anakin acknowledging that he would keep Anakin's secret of the murder of Dooku just like he kept the secret of the slaughter of the Tusken Raiders. ***** page 153 (2) ***** The motivation for putting Anakin to spy on Sidious in the movie was not clear. In the novel it is clear that the Council suspects that the Sith Lord might be influencing Palpatine. Mace, "It is possible that we may have to... move against Palpatine. If he is truely under the control of the Sith Lord, it may be the only way." ***** page 163-164 (3) ***** The mystery over Padme's pregnancy is fully explained in the novel. Upon first coming back to Coruscant, Padme says, "Five months--how could they do that to us?" ... and in there reunion there's the first inkling of what is later to come (Vader force choking Padme). 'He took her by the shoulders now, his hands hard and irresistibly powerful. "I can feel it in the Force! There is something coming between us-- Who is it? Who?" His hands sprang open as though she had burned them. He took an unsteady step backward, his face suddenly ashen. "Padme--I would never--I'm so sorry, I just-- ***** (4) ***** Then there's the same no special effects laden scenes in the novel which do so much to flesh out the characters and their motivations. Page 189-90, Sidious and Anakin, "Nonsense, Age is no measure of wisdom. They keep you off the Council because it is there last hold they have on you, Anakin; it is how the control you. Once you're a Master, as you deserve, how will they make you do their bidding... You are not like them. You are younger. Stronger. Better. That is why they keep you down. They fear your power. They fear you." And oh so important is the exchange on page 191 between Anakin and Sidious, "This imaginary Sith Lord of theirs--even if he does exist, is he anyone to be feared? To be hunted down and exterminated without trial?" This directly sets up the Mace/Anakin/Sidious scene later and helps provide some insight into Anakin's mind at that juncture. Also, Sidious says that he would try and talk to the Dark Lord and see if he had any power to stop the war. Then perfectly paralleled on page 212 between Anakin and Obi-wan, "I would ask [the Sith Lord] if he has any power to save Padme ***** (5) ***** what happened to the formation of the Rebellion! page 204-206 with Mon Mothma, etc. ***** (6) pages 217-221 ***** actual good dialogue and human interaction between Anakin and Padme ***** Of course there's a lot more examples, I only highlighted a few from the first half of the novel. ***** (7) ***** There the Palpatine / Sidious transformation on pages 331 - 341 which explains why Sidious couldn't stop the force lightning, the mask of Palpatine and illustrates the final turn/acceptance to the dark side. ***** page 392 (8) ***** and what happened to these few simple lines of dialogue prior to the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel: Anakin "Nothing will happen. Nothing can happen. Let Palpatine call himself Emperor. Let him. He can do the dirty work, all the messy, brutal oppression it'll take to unite the galaxy forever--unite it against him. He'll make himself into the most hated man in history. And when the time is right, we'll throw him down--" or when Anakin realized Obi-Wan was a stow-away, Anakin "Palpatine was right. Sometimes it is the closest who cannot see. I loved you too much, Padme." "You turned her against me" ***** page 405-406 (9) ***** there is no mention of Obi-Wan having the high ground in the duel. It is just played out without the silly line of dialogue. ***** and finally, the last one I will highlight is with the construction of Darth Vader and the suit, page 417 'And you rage and scream and reach throught the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.'
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...in about ten years time, when technology has moved on and Mr Lucas decides he 'couldn't quite tell the story he wanted with the technology at the time' and decides to release a 'special edition ROTS' where Padme' gives birth to black twins cause Mace is now the father, a digitally added scene of Anakin's cock getting fried and Grievous shoots first...
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I loved ROTS. It's not perfect (Empire is still the perfect SW film) but I think it may wind up being my favorite. That said, was anybody else out there bothered by the pretty blatant Bush Bashing in ROTS? Don't get me wrong, I'm a progressive guy, I didn't vote for the sitting prez. But I didn't stand in line on Wednesday night to see Faranheit 911. I went to see Star Wars. Think about this: Since Lucas began writing the SAGA in the early 70s, he has seen 6 or 7 sitting presidents, each with their own crisises and policies. Is Bush really so important that Lucas felt he had to end a 30-year filmmaking journey, perhaps the most beloved film franchise ever, with what really amounted to some pretty pithy snipes at Bush (If you're not with me, you're my enemy; This war represents a failure to listen; This is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause)? I just felt it was innapropriate to do that in a film like Star Wars. How many of those SW fans voted for Bush? Lucas didn't need to pander to Michael Moore, he needed to entertain us all.
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Tried to shoehorn in so much into too little space. This film should have run over 3 films. Like Bail Organa gets about 5 mins screen time over 2 films but Obi Wan just lets him take a kid..cause he says he wants one. He needed to be a character. we needed to want him to take the child.
So much stuff like this was glossed over to make room for some souless,unexciting CGI chase like Obi-wan and Grevious.
All the blame falls at Lucas and Rick (yes George) Macallum. Bad writing and storytelling all the way. All the cgi in the world can't hide it.....Oh and why does no one ask why Princess Leia is a princess when her adopted parents aren't royalty and she isnt married to royalty??? -
An you've lost the war. This movie kicks some fucking ass, the thing here is that you haters have no valid points to hate the movie or the entire saga. The movie is great, critics love it, and it broke a box office record. So stop your pointless posts, they are useless. Are you fans of LOTR? Most of the haters are.... because their lameful saga was second. Yes, that's their envy. LOTR was second and Star Wars was first. All who hits first, hits twice. So fuck you haters... you are lost, u don't have a life.
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AWWW, i lost my copy and paste... damn
Anyway, saw it friday, yes i'm a fan. it was good. and i liked the way the story moved along quickly and explained everything. still , the turn was so sorely lacking... i mean, come'on, slap the guy , make him do something other than woos out and say yes master. han had a big black nasty thing with needles and stuff facing him. i know he was leaning, so back off... it just didn't play out quite to well, but it did get the essence out.... so history may show this better than now. if i'm not mistaken, stories are handed down over time and take on a mystery and auroa of other worldness. I wish i could be 12 again and see this, but oh well. it kind a was good/great/cool. I agree EP1&2 should have been combined. Thought that immediately after seeing this, with this story spread out, especially considering the last few minutes to wrap up everyting tidy-like. Oh well. Shakesphere had his day and maybe Lucas will too, with the help of re-telling of the stories.
! Yeah !
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Just like the previous two movies in the Star Wars prequel trilogy.
Not only do we now have these three terrible, pointless, contradiction laden movies in existence, but by mere association of name alone, the original Star Wars trilogy is now actually WORSE!
I wish George Lucas hadn't bothered coming up with Star Wars at all in the first place now. If you can't do something right, George, don't do it at all, as my old da used to say. -
But can anyone tell me what's up with this?
http://www.writestuffautographs.com/shop/images/products/film183.jpg -
May 21, 2005 7:36:44 PM CDT
Revenge of the Sith kicked even more ass the fourth time I saw i
by atticus finch
Read several posts at different sites with haters who said something to the effect of "Yeah, I saw it for the third time and it still sucked", as most of them probably have.
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http://www.writestuffautographs.com/shop/images/products/film183.jpg
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Heh, yeah, I agree. What should he have said instead? "MOTHER-F##KER!"; "Ahhhhhh! F#CK ME!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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I was very bored by the Obi-Wan/Grevious chase scene. There was no excitement to it at all.
Best scene of the film imo, was the Opera scene. Palpatine owns it, and the deep bass noises coming from the Opera are so forboding that it gave me goosebumps. -
This movie sucked. It didn't evoke even 1% of the emotional response in me that LOTR did.
I'm just fucking glad it's over and we never have to see another piece of Lucas-turd ever again.
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May 21, 2005 7:55:14 PM CDT
Yes, because it's not like idiots won't pay money to see terribl
by paddyo'neill
And there are a LOT of idiots to go around in America...
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This movie was great fun. Haters, not only do I hope that Lucas has raped your childhood yet again, but I also hope he wiped his dick on your mother's curtains after he's taken it out of your whiny asses.
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Jeez, I remember the last 20 minutes of false endings during Return of the King. I just wanted it to be over. I wanted so much more (in a good way) after Sith ended... I fackin' loved it this way and that. I will be seeing this multiple times.
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And I only went that once because my mates insisted and I was still morbidly curious about it. Then again, I'm occasionally morbidly curious about being rammed in the anus, but somehow manage to resist that experience, so I'm sure I'll resist going to see this tripe again.
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Someone once said that what you see on the screen is canon and in the books fiction. With that in mind, in the novelization of Sith, Palpatine reveals he is the apprentice that kills his master, Darth Plagueis just before Anakin catches on that he's Darth Sidous. And its more than obvious that Palatine influenced the midi-chlorians to "create" Anakin. As for Pamd
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May 21, 2005 8:07:00 PM CDT
"...but I also hope he wiped his dick on your mother's curtains
by inzodwetrust
Shawn, there's a better method... Squeeze the ass cheeks together as you withdraw... At least YOU'LL be squeaky clean.
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and don't we always? The attack onn the second death star was better to me because it felt like everyone was involved. I wish there was some more filler dog fight scenes, just to help with the scale of the battle. I wanted more grit in the lightsaber fights, and they could have been longer too. Kit Fisto should have held out just a second longer. The score should have picked up more when Mace is about to kill Palpatine like in ROTJ when Vader was contemplating whether to help Luke or not. The Jedi could have lasted longer when they were turned on, or 'sensed' a disturbence in the force. That's just a long time fans rant. But I can say that this is the first prequel that I've wanted to find out about everthing that went on in the background. Al the Baron Papanoida, Mon Mothma and the formation of the Rebels, Qui-Gon teaching Yoda, and so on. So overall I really liked it. In typical AICN fashion I want to close by saying that anyone that thinks having Johnny Knoxville play Han Solo in a 'remade' trilogy should never reproduce or give advice or exist for that matter - sorry. That's all...move along.
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I was kidding on that, but not about Hayden palying Luke. Lucas WILL finally remake the OT, just wait. He has some wierd hatred for the OT, and the only way he'll be happy is by redoing them completely.
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He said Fox will definitely put "enourmous pressure" on Lucas and his "deputies" to continue the films. He did not say Fox would make them themselves. I have no problem believing Fox executives will do their best to convince Lucas and his apprentices into doing another trilogy.
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"uh, perhaps you should seek professional help?"
Are you somehow suggesting that homosexuals automatically need psychiatric help? -
Chewbroccoli at length went into the differences between the book vs the movie, implying the book was somehow better. Oddly, every scene he discusses is in the film, and the dialog quoted is thematicly the same, and often, the last sentence (the summation of dialog or scene) is identical to what appears in the film. More dialog is not better dialog. Palpatine in the film DOES have a conversation with Anikin saying his revenge is justified. Palpatine DOES reveal he know's of the Tuscan Raider slaughter. The Jedi Counsil Does explain their motivation for having Anikin spy on Palpapine. Anikin DOES accuse Obi of turning Padme against him. The additional dialog in the book is not only implied in the film, but would be redundant if included. It's only in the book to fill pages devoid of images. The films dialog is pointed and Concise, not Bad. And Obi Won having the higher ground and saying is not "silly", but poetic. Rich complex visuals with clear, to the point dialog anyone from any nation or background can comprehend. Do you dialog-haters actually want longer, boring speeches?
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Thought it was awful. Just awful. Only moment that I liked was after the helmet dropped on Vader's head, there was the first breath. And then he screamed, "Noooooo!" And, officially, Star Wars is done for me. That was it. Done. I will always love the OT, but I'm going to pretend that the prequels never happened. They have only taken away from what was a great trilogy of movies. I don't own any of the preqeuls and I will not ever buy any of the prequels. I'm just numb at the sheer awfulness of Phantom Menace, AOTC and ROTS. I really wish they had never gone back. Mr. Lucas, thanks for your original vision, it was a tremendous influence on my life: I can't agree with any of your choices since the relase of ROTJ, and I'm now stepping away. Good luck, and I hope you leave Star Wars alone from this point on.
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And the film holds up okay to repeat viewings, however knowing what was to come did leave me waiting for the next action scene at times. My favourite bit out of the whole thing was General Grevious's Uni-Cycle Gyro thingy, brought a huge smile to my face every time it was on screen or did something or made a sound, man that thing looked cool, Where can I get one?. As for what I would have liked to have been better/different, well I don't like the Droid doctor "she's lost the will to live" shit, To me it looked like Vader did more than just Force Choke her, it looked like he drained her life. I also didn't like Thunderbird Puppet looking Vader construction or the Frankenstein movement, Vader first words "whats happened to Padme?" Just sounds plain Wrong Wrong Wrong. And the Noooooooo was probably the overall worst moment in the movie. Not seeing Qui Gon got me pissed first time around but I've got over it, maybe it would have been a bit too much. Overall I love the film and Lucas has done a very good job,especially considering that the publics expectations were so high and the overall difficulty of Bridging a gap between the other 2 prequels and a film made almost 30 years ago. Whilst viewing "A New Hope" on Thursday night I found myself watching with fresh eyes, Vader vs Obi Wan meant more to me than it had ever meant before. Also most of the additional CGI added in 97 worked very well to disguise the movies age and keep the continuity. I can't wait to see what Lucas comes up with for the TV series? Fringe characters eh?
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May 21, 2005 8:47:47 PM CDT
i saw UNLEASHED before this and thought it was a better film
by fried samurai
I watched this right after UNLEASHED which i thought was a pretty cool little flick.ROTS wasnt as bad as people make it out to be,in fact it was head and shoulders above the first two prequels which isnt really saying much.I dont see how people can call this a masterpiece though, that should be reserved for films like RAGING BULL.Just my opinion...peace
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Maybe instead of having screenings for celebrities Lucas should have test screenings for his audience? It seems there is such a clear consensus and where certain elements fell short.
Sounds like the novels did tell a more complete story and I wouldn't be surprised if the DVD with additional scenes is more satisfying. -
There are a bunch of assholes here who just want to shit on everything. What? This is what? Ain't it cool news? Oh, right, yeah, the assholes are here. The pussies are on Fark. Don't mind me, I'm just being a dick. ...assholes.
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All films should not be made by audience consensus. Leave that to Ron Howard and Brian Grazier who make popular crap like Apollo 13 and the Grinch with the help of many audience test screenings. Lucas should be applauded for making popular ART and telling a compelling story in his own UNIQUE fashion. His films cannot be immitated and are truly beyond compare.
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I thought certain scenes were better executed in text than on screen. The main point I was trying to convey was that the pacing was off in the movie. As I said earlier, "points 'a' 'b' 'c' 'd' were all great, but the journey/pacing between was rushed and not fleshed out enough because too much was left to be crammed into ROTS." I liked ROTS, just felt that it was hurt by poor planning of the prior two movies. ROTS felt like a 3-4 hour long story compressed into 2 hrs 20 minutes.
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May 21, 2005 9:15:14 PM CDT
Palpatine has a Jack Nicholson JOKER moment when he is dangling
by george newman
He looked down and laughs at yoda, "Hee hee!--Whoa!" as he almost slips. I laughed
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I am sick of the people on this site talking smack about ROTS.
This movie was the best of all 6. I keep hearing this crap about "the acting is wooden" and "the dialogue is bad". Okay, if you are going to insult it at least don't use the same lines I've already read from every other person hating on this movie. Also, would someone explain to me how
A New Hope's dialogue was supposed to be so much better than ROTS.
Back to my original point. Great battles, great FX, really good story, and yes-good acting make a freaking awesome movie; not to mention that it tied everything together as best as I could have hoped for.
George Lucas by making ROTS has now gained what Anakin obtained in ROTJ, Redemption. -
Awesome experience.
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May 21, 2005 9:21:56 PM CDT
Did anyone else find the name "Order 66" a tad contrived?
by boris the blade
C'mon, just throw on the other 6 why doncha? We all know it's de ultimate eeeeevil....sigh.
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GOOOOOOD!
Who cares about the rest...palpatine is worth the price of admission. -
Why is homosexuality so prevalent in the animal kingdom if sex is only meant for procreation?
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That should shut up the naysayers. How dare you mock the Fist?
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Yes. I agree some of ROTS could have been included in Clones, both films would have benefited. I'll get in trouble saying this, but Menace is perfect as is. It's a great introduction to a nine year old boy and a fairy-tale galaxy filled with princesses and knights and creatures, all living a naive existence. There's an innocense to it all that perfectly sets up the treachery to come. The increasingly frantic pacing of Clones and now Sith dramatically set up a New Hope. I was left exhausted after ROTS, and watching not only Anikin, but the whole Jedi order and really the entire universe implode...what better way to draw focus, and let us breath a bit, as we narrow it down to meet this kid trapped on this little moisture farm, unaware of this giant fractured universe. But yeah, it was a lot of movie to pack into two and a half hours.
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Why doesn't Lucas just produce the
darn things and let a more "legit"
director take the reins. (not a chance, I'm sure) Frank Darabont or Ridley Scott maybe? -
May 21, 2005 9:43:48 PM CDT
"This is supposed to be the most horrible man in the Galaxy...no
by buggeroff
Uhh...so how do horrible men become horrible men? Before your knees jerk, think about your response...
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Like anything Lucas has backed since "Raiders", I have mixed emotions.
I have to say that when the end credits rolled, I was feeling pretty good about the film. I can not excuse some awful missteps but the overall impact was strong, dramatic and refreshingly adult.
The missteps are plenty: The reason Anakin turns to the dark side is limp and abrupt. He so believes a dream he's having about Padme's death that he can be talked into killing children? Huh? It needs a lot more finessing than that and Lucas wasted his time and our by vomiting on four hours of prequel time (Menace/Clones) and not trying to plant the right seeds for this story point.
The Jedi being killed off should be a centerpiece. This is the mother of all betrayals in the saga. It's handled in a flurry of activity with no personal touches to make it affecting.
The emperor looked positively silly in the latex makeup. He desperately needs that hood to hide that prosthetic work. (the lighting was all wrong too - How about a few shadows to give him a little mystery?? He looked lit by headlights. Tattersal sucks)
There's a stretch about twenty minutes into the film (after Palpatine is rescued) that plods along. People talk about doing something in a few minutes and then we see them go and do the thing they talked about doing a few minutes ago. It was so weak.
The lightsaber battles were unclear, cluttered and lacked basic structure. The fight choregraher on 'Sith' tsked about the light saber duels in Episodes IV, V and VI but at least they felt emotional and you could follow them.
I hate the lizard Obi Wan travels around on. It doesn't feel 'Star Wars', more like some dime store science fiction novel. (there used to be a difference between the two)
And of course, Vader's lame few lines at the end and him stumbling off the medical table. It's so undignified and unintentionally funny. This is what you had us wait two and a half movies for??
Lucas is so out of touch that he must now rely on everyone to keep him from stabbing the series in the back.
With all of that said, I still enjoyed much of it. I remember hating 'Menace' and thinking 'Clones' was talky and boring. I didn't feel nearly as let down as I did then. I know I liked the movie better Thursday night but things are nagging on me now and are keeping me from respecting a lot of the approach Lucas took.
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and it made me laugh, like lots of other parts in the movie.
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May 21, 2005 9:57:47 PM CDT
"NOOOOOOOO" would've been fine if it had been delivered properly
by billy ho
I can deal with the other cheesy lines and acting, its a SW flick. But this should've been a classic, tragic moment in cinematic history. Instead, it looked like it was from "Spaceballs" (like a few scenes, honestly). Huge disappointment. I hope that shit gets fixed by the DVD release. I'm kinda expecting it to.
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Loved the film. Made me squirt man tears. Saw with my friends, as should always be. As per the Vader scream: any Faustian interpretation MUST include that NOOOO. Ani made a pact with the devil, went to hell to see it through, and ended up losing and trapped in slavery forever. Dope.
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I'm not a hater, and I've been looking forward to this movie for a couple years. I love all the Star Wars movies. I will say that anyone that says ROTS is the best of the 6 does not share the same opinion as myself. I defend 1 and 2 conatantly. Jar Jar doesn't bother me. He was put in the movie TO bother everyone he's around. That's why he's there most of the time. And to make a big mistake in the senate. But that's secondary. Anyway, about Episode III... This is why I didn't LOVE LOVE LOVE it. When you finish a story in the middle, you are going to lose a lot of the mystery to the film. There was not one battle that we all did not know what was going to happen to some degree. We know Yoda won't die. We know Palpatine won't die. We know Obi Wan won't die or be hurt. It's cool to watch, but we've all seen about 10 light saber battles now. So now we have to watch about 3 or 4 more annnnnnnnnnnnd we know how it's going to end before it even begins. Don't get me wrong, I still appreciate the entertainment value of the visuals and everything that is cool about the movie. BUT, there were only a couple of things that really made me go "Ahhhhhh... That's why that is..." For example the rumors that Anakin went around and hunted down all the Jedi. Nope, mostly the clones did that work.
I do have a question for someone that may know the answer. It seemed that in Episodes 1 and 2, when they showed Darth Sideous on the holographic images, he was ugly and disfigured. My friend thinks that he was always that way, and the whole battle against Mace was an act to get Anakin to turn. He used this as an excuse to explain his actual hideous look and the senators look was really a cover up. He thinks he's very very old. Is this true? -
I think being snatched away from your mother by a wierd religious cult at age 9 only to have her kidnapped and killed in your absence, resulting in mass revenge killing...seems like well planted seeds. His "abrupt" turn started then...continued when he confronts Dooku. He's smart enough to realize very quickly he has no option than to bow to Sidious. And what dignified words would you have Vader say just after being made into this monster? I think his "lame few lines" punctuate the tradgedy and are echoed in Padmes final words.
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Not by much though. Ewan is the only good thing in any of the movies except for Liam in Crapisode 1. The annoying factor thankfully was turned way down though. No whining 8 yearr old, no horrible Jar-Jar, no unfunny 3PO. This one was just bad dialogue, bad acting and plot holes to run a mac truck through. A few good moments, more than in the other two crapfests. Still dissapointing but not horrible. What was with Grievus? He was not the kick ass he was in Clone Wars. The Vader scream was pretty bad. Anakin turns to the dark side to save his wife, he kills children for heavens sake. Basically the reason for him turning bad was to save her. However, Palpatine does not come through for Anakin, and all Vader does is scream. Then he will spend the next 20 years by Palpatine's side. RIGHT! What a joke. Why oh why didn't Lucas hire a screenwriter beyond a 6th grade level.
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Ummmm, I don't in his eyes Palpatine failed him. In his eyes, he killed Padame. That's why he blames himself and becomes the REAL asshole we all love in 4, 5, and 6. Come on guys, don't bash before thinking things out a little bit okay?
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I've seen Spiderman 1 and 2 in the theaters. I own both on DVD and watched them both pretty recently... I think they're both really good. Well made movies. Not at all boring.
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Star Wars owns and your little boring sleepy theater rant won't change a damn thing, haha!
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There was no way you could be wrong about your prediction. Just by looking at the last star wars openings you would've been right? That's like me saying McDonalds down the Street is guaranteed to sell at least 10 Big Macs today! YOU SEE!!! I'm a genius! They sold 256 Big Macs! Come on now... Don't make predictions that everyone knows will come to be and act like you're a jedi yourself! LOL
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May 21, 2005 10:40:33 PM CDT
The summer season finally starts! after garbage like hitchikers
by orionsangels
Thos flopping movies were funny. Star Wars saves the summer!
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May 21, 2005 10:41:33 PM CDT
Yep. AICN is officially overrun with impatient, stupid teenagers
by zerocorpse
who wouldn't recognize homages to literature and classic film if they were labelled clearly. They don't get any of the philosophical or psychological points, either (like "balance in the force" meaning the ellimination of BOTH the Jedi Order's monastic moral absolutes and the Sith's unchecked greed and selfishness, or the ideals of codependence). EVERY "plot hole" has been addressed in the series, and it only takes a keen eye to spot the answers that make these "holes" go away. It's clear that half the people here are either inexperienced, impatient kids, adults with ADD, or just plain stupid. I miss the old days of AICN when there weren't near as many trolls to ruin the experience.
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Listen, I'm a fan - i'm not going to list my qualifications here... becuase I think visting this website and posting on talkback is evidence enough!
Listen, I'm a fan - i'm not going to list my qualifications here... because I think visiting this website and posting on talkback is evidence enough!
Anyway. Here is my opinion on a number of threads here
1.) inconstancies from the original trilogy (i.e obiwan not recognizing the droids)... so what; you just have to accept some of those. Actually I thought ROTS's major strength was trying to all together well.
2.) repeated viewing make it better. I agree with this; having seen it twice now. I think the reason is that upon repeated viewings you associate the film more with TOS, and less with the first two terrible films. Thus, any emotional impact that you feel is generated 'retro actively' and does not build at all from phantom or AOTC.
3.) Reason for anakins turn. Although I agree that its a clever narrative twist having the reason for the turn be a 'good' one. It dosen't really gel well with what we know of the dark side. Frankly I would have bought luke turning to the dark side at the end of jedi more than I was convinced of anakins turn. On this score I think there is partly acting to blame, but I think its mostly script problems. SO much wasted time in the first two, and characterizations that don't build to anything. i.e Anakin -
May 21, 2005 10:47:30 PM CDT
Obi-Wan left Anakin limbless and waddling around like a baby sea
by orionsangels
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Homosexual behavior happens in nature all the time, and it should take anyone a few seconds on Google to prove (here's ONE such example, there's hundreds more -- ... A recent recipient of the Nobel Prize won it for their investigative research about homosexual, NECROPHILIAC behavior in ducks and other animals .... (http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1432991,00.html)
... Nature is filled to the brim with bizarre sexual stories, but all of this isn't even the point. You can't look to nature for rules on how to live in modern society. If so, I could pick any animal at random and say, let's live like that! Let's have females eat the males immediately after intercourse! Let's abandon our children in the woods three days after delivery! Let's eat our weaker offspring and kill the ones who get too strong! See my point? Read a book before you come in here and start gay-bashing, moron. -
May 21, 2005 10:49:34 PM CDT
Well said Mr Zero guy, I think we should over throw these teen k
by orionsangels
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By your logic, males and females who, due to medical problems can't have children, are also living in sin. Our when a guy has anal sex with a woman. Or... you get my drift.
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May 21, 2005 10:51:25 PM CDT
I have a solution to the Vader "NOOOOOOOO" scream. When you get
by orionsangels
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You guys know the one... the "Jabba Slave Girl" Jedi chick, wearing leather straps, that gets shot in the back by the Clone Troopers. We see her for about 10 seconds, but damn, she gave Padme a run for her money in the bone-o-meter department. Cen't wait to get a few screencaps from a Blue Ray DVD. // Oh, and about the movie - I liked it. It was better than the first two prequels and was almost on par with "Jedi." However, I can't help but think that this prequel trilogy should have gone a lot differently with the plot and characters. Lucas has been quoted as saying that when he did the treatment for the prequels, that 60% of what he wrote ended up in "Sith" and the other 40% was divided between "Menace" and "Clones." Basically what happened was that Menace and Clones had to be padded out with a bunch of filler (characters, events, etc.) while Sith got crammed. What should have happened was a 33/33/34 proposition between all the prequel movies. I am thinking the Wookies should have been introduced in the 2nd film, or perhaps the first film and used instead of the Gungans and developed them as a more tragic race, making them being wiped out in "Sith" all the more gut wrenching. Jar Jar should have been a sort of outcast rogue, similar to Solo or Lando. He could have kept his comedic atributes, but tempered them with a kind of malaise or melancholy. That's the kind character Binks should have been. Darth Maul should have survived Menace, providing the "Good Guys" with more of a constant, fleshed out, "in-your-face" threat that the prequels lacked. We should have SEEN Qui Gon's ghost instead of being told about him. etc. etc. // I do believe a lot of things were done excellently over the course of the trilogy, namely Palpatine's rise to power. Man, who didn't get chills while Palpatine related the story about the Sith master to Anakin at the "opera"? The look on the man's face made one believe he was talking about slaying his own master in his sleep. Creepy. I truly felt a sense of loss as the Jedi were being gunned down, but could have felt more if the "better side" of the Jedi Order was fleshed out better in the previous 2 flicks - the compassion and justice "central to a Jedi's life." We saw precious little of that in the preceeding two movies. Loved how Lucas incorporated more than just humans into the Jedi Order. There's a multi-cultural aspect to Lucas' films that I appreciate. // So, all that in mind, I'd rate the movies in the following way: Empire - 8.5, Star Wars - 8.0, Jedi/Sith - 7.7, Clones - 7.0, Menace - 6.1 (barely passing).
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George Lucas has made this world too big. Outside all those huge windows are thousands, hell millions, of ships and transports wizzing about. They never stop. Do they have any idea what the hell's going inside these rooms and on these spaceships? Even at the critical moment in ROTS, when it feels like the whole world should have stopped with the weight of what's happening, those transports are still zipping back and forth. The Republic has fallen, Empire has risen, and the Jedi are slaughtered. One question--has anyone bothered to tell the people outside?
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May 21, 2005 11:16:42 PM CDT
http://darthno.ytmnd.com/ Copy & paste this link. Funny ROTS
by tall_boy
http://darthno.ytmnd.com/ Click it, you know it to be true. PS - movie rawks.
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Yoda = Ralph Nader. They both went into exile from powerful forces for the sake of values.
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I was thinking it would have been better if Padme had a real threat of death, rather than just a dream vision, like maybe he has the dreams but then eventually she really does have problems and falls into a coma, then he would have more of a sense of urgency in saving the emperor and it would have made you feel for him a little more. I don't know I guess it would goof it up later taking her out of critical parts, but he could still be made to think her death was his fault some way.
I really liked it overall and I bought his turn with all the fear of death and just being a punk with emotional control problems anyway, and just wanting to be more than normal jedi and beleiving his own hype, but there could have been more fear/urgency added to where he had to do something -
When I first walked out of the theatre upon seeing ROTS there were only three scenes that jumped out in my mind as horrible. The first scene was Anikin and Padme's "You're so beutiful" scene. How can great actors let Lucas get away with such bad dialouge in three consecutive films? Every other romantic scene worked though and was much better than AOTC. The second bad scene came much later during Anikin and Obi's fight. I thought the fight scene went on too long when they began fighting on the floating platforms. That was uneccesary and the special effects there did not look too great. There was also some bad dialouge in this scene as well. "From my point of view it is the jedi who are wrong!" The third scene of course is the already infamous "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" scene with Vader. As soon as that scene happened I could have swore I heard the sound of a million fanboys cringing at once. I agree with another post on here that that could be one of the worst mistakes in film history. Lucas does not seem to know the meaning of the word subtlety and seems to think that the viewers are idiots at times. Doesn't he know that emotion and even silence can explain things better and have more impact than line after line of dialouge? Supposed problems that other fans have pointed out I don't have a problem with. I thought Grevious was awesome and I don't think the coughing had to be explained. I did not think that Grevious was a wuss, simply that he had met his match fighting against Obi and Anikin. I thought the acting overall was ten times better from both Anikin and Padme and the pacing was much better than in AOTC. Also, I think Grevious and the Wookies were neccesary in the film because they were part of the reason that Yoda and Obi were able to survive. Also, i thought Hayden's performance was simply awesome and he did a great job showing his turn to the darkside. To me, it was beleivable. Highlights from the film for me were the entire first scene, the killing off of the Jedi,Yoda's battle with the Emporer in the Senate and Padme's confrontation with Anikin on the lava planet. As for comments about the prequal trilogy as a whole. After first viewing ROTS, I instantly thought it was the best of the prequals. However, the more I think about it I actually think one could argue now that Phantom Menace is the best of the PT - as funny as that may sound. Overall, I think Phantom Menace has the best story and the best villian in Darth Maul. Some have argued that Maul was wasted and was not on screen enough, however, isn't that why we all love Boba Fett so much? He was cool and mysterious, just like Maul. AOTC is simply horrible except for the Yoda fight scene with Tyranus and seems to have no real narrative - just a bunch of random stuff happening that is either ridiculous or forgetable and way too much political talk. Right now though, I have to give props to ROTS. The good outweighs the bad. Though, i think that the PT has sadly tainted the OT.
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You seem to have a fixation on homosexuality. What's that all about? You're a muscle-bound giant of a man, aren't you?
P.S. "Power Metal" sucks. So do the Broncos. -
May 21, 2005 11:37:52 PM CDT
ROTS: SHOWGIRLS IN OUTERSPACE sans THE TITIES and GINA GERSHON!!
by mentallymariah
Hayden Christianson = Elizabeth Berklery...This movie was just plain awful, Burnt Grilled CHEESE made with Velveeta! At least the old Star Wars were good cheesy fun, everyone in this one takes themselves too seriously! Gawd, Natalie Portman looked like she was over it, her acting was like "Thank God This is the final one, let me just make this line delivery and I can go home.." There were more laughs in this one then Kung Fu Hustle, unintentional laughther that is...I saw it twice, thinking maybe the 2nd time I would like it, but nah, it's a piece of high tech garbage then people are deluding themselves into liking...I cannot belive the postive reviews for this one...PAINFUL!! NOOOOOOOO!!!!!! cheesiest moment in movie history!!
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Addition? I think the word Harry is looking for is "edition."
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"Some have argued that Maul was wasted and was not on screen enough, however, isn't that why we all love Boba Fett so much? He was cool and mysterious, just like Maul."
I love how bashers will say, "Don't show us too much of Boba Fett! It takes away his mystery!" and on the other hand they will say, "Lucas sucks! He didn't tell us enough about Darth Maul!!" -
Sidious refers to Yoda as "my little... green... friend". Ranking it up there with Vader's in-his-face "General Veers, prepare your men".
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Obi-Wan says "only Sith belive in absolutes."
Isn't it the Jedi who have a narrow conception of right and wrong? Isn't it the Sith that believe in an expanded view of morality?
Despite Lucas' injection of his own brand of goofy Zen the movie itself was a fitting end and a good tie together for the whole series. I watched A NEW HOPE today and somehow it made more sense than it ever did. Maybe it's just me. -
Obi-Wan's statement shows the hypocrisy of the Jedi, and that they are as narrowminded as the Sith. Althought the Sith see themselves as liberated, their embracing of the Dark Side fuels their negative energy and creates a kind of emotional vortex, and leads them to more anger, jealousy, child-murdering, and Cingular commercials.
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May 22, 2005 12:06:58 AM CDT
I agree with the two guys saying Palpatine is responsible for An
by hoke mosley
It makes a lot of sense. TOTS rocks, btw. I just watched the other two movies (hate the first, 50/50 on clones) and I found something weird. Yoda says the Sith have been extinct for a 1000 years. That also points to the fact that Palpatine was a pupil of the Sith he tells Anakin about. BUT Anakin is suposed to bring balance to the force by killing the Sith, right? SO, in episode one, if they think the Sith are extinct, why do they give a damm to this prophecy anyway?? any thoughts??
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Lucas' direction to Portman went something like this. "Now, I want you to sit on this couch and complain and look worried." A few scense later. "Now, you are sitting in this chair looking worried." A few scenes later "Now, you are looking at the senate looking worried." A few scense later "You are sitting in the spaceship looking worried." His diretions to Anakin. Fun movie, better than the PM and AOC, but inferior to OT. Characters weren't interesting; they were flat--bad acting and bad dialogue. In the OT the main characters were ones we could identify with. The only one I could really care about was Obi Wan. He had the best dialogue and was the best actor. Palpatine was second. One last thing, didn't Leia say she remembered her mother in ROTJ? How could she?
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"didn't Leia say she remembered her mother in ROTJ? How could she?"
Leia thinks that her parents are Senator Organa and his wife. -
Powermetal1, you wrote, "I do not accept [homosexuals] as normal and I don't fucking have to. It's my opinion and fuck anyone that doesn't like it." All right. It's your opinion, that's cool. Just don't let all those facts about homosexuality occuring in non-human organisms get in the way of your very, very important opinion. Have fun disbelieving reality. Oh, and how many times were you raped by your priest?
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So, by PM1's standards, Titanic is the best movie ever and the LOTR trilogy is better than Star Wars. HAHAHAHAHAHA
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I'm sorry, Powermetal1. I didn't mean to provoke you. That comment about your priest raping you... pure fiction, right? So sorry. It must've been difficult for you to reconcile those unspeakable acts with the so-called normalcy of your life... I really do sympathize. But maybe the reason you're so against homosexuality is because you secretly liked what the priest did to you. It wasn't your fault, so at some point I hope you find peace.
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"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." Aw man, that just rocks. I can't even tell you why ... it's not exactly a stupid line. "Stupid" doesn't quite capture it. Have you ever seen Futurama? The last episode? When the Robot Devil gets all pissed because Fry's opera dialogue is too literal? He says: "THE CHARACTERS CAN'T JUST SAY EXACTLY HOW THEY'RE FEELING! I AM VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS!" It's like that, but even fucking cooler, because Lucas was doing it for real!
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It's not only the gay thing, I've read all your posts and you are one sick motherfucker. You need to get help. Or go to some hate site where people think you're clever. Here, talking about movies, you're just fucking scary.
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I truly believe that Star Wars now exists in the same "universe" as Futurama, if only because both stories involve robots built with no apparent purpose except to exhibit annoying human-like habits. Like those "Three Stooges" droids that appear everywhere in the new crapisodes (LOVE that term, by the way) - what, were a bunch of programmers in the Star Wars galaxy saying to themselves, "Now, make sure that this robot slips and falls a lot, and this one makes really dumb comments all the time ... oh, and we need to make sure they make really poor judgments all the time, react slowly to threats, and use cheesy slang, like 'blast 'em!'" Don't even try comparing them to C-3PO. It actually makes sense that he's given a "personality" of sorts because he's meant to interact with humans on a personal level - those "attack droids" (or whatever) were programmed to be incompetent!
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C'mon PowerMetal1! Answer me! Is Titanic better than Empire? Well, is it?
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http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1061508,00.html. The article states, "Writing in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, they reported that gay men don't respond to the chemicals the same way that straight men do. "It clearly substantiates the idea that there's a biological substrate for sexual orientation," says Dean Hamer, a geneticist at the National Institutes of Health and the author of Science of Desire: The Gay Gene and the Biology of Behavior (Simon & Schuster; 272 pages). "This is a highly significant result."" There's your proof. Or are you going to argue semantics again?
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Well, before I saw the movie but after the trailer, I was thinking that Palpatine was setting up Anakin to think the Jedi were going to overthrow him, leak to the Jedi that he was the Sith Lord. When they went to arrest him, Anakin would have been conveniently arranged to be nearby and thinking this was the supposed coup, end up attacking the Jedi trying to arrest Palpatine. Then from there, somehow convincing him that the Jedi had been misleading him about the Sith and they were really different in some way from how he'd been lead to believe. From there, it lead into getting him to join the Sith that way.
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The reason why scientific arguments never use the terms "is" or "was" because the first lesson taught in any area of modern science is that there is no such thing as a scientific fact. Scientists rely on observation and documentation. A theory can never be proven, only disproven. Looking for facts in this discussion is not ging to happen. But when a Nobel-prize winning individual witnesses a male duck performing a sexually aggressive act on a lifeless male duck... Jesus, who would make shit like THAT up?
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May 22, 2005 12:49:24 AM CDT
I wish Palpatine had not gone through the make-up change until t
by johngalt2005
It hampered Ian McDirmaind (or however the fuck you spell his name)'s performance, which was by far the best in the movie.
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am all for homosexual necrophilia in the animal kingdom. Think of the ratings a show like that would get. Fuck "The Simple Life". Next on Fox: "When Animals Have Sex With Dead Animals" Nielsen Ratings, throught the frickin' roof!
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May 22, 2005 12:52:41 AM CDT
Okay, I skipped a few posts so this might be back tracking a lit
by mycorruption
but I was bored and ended up reading most of the talk back. Hey, the entertainment value can not be beat. Anyhoo, I just wanted to weigh in on the 'why was Luke placed in such an obvious location as a child' line of discussion. I understand why some people keep going back to the 'Vadar did not know his children were alive so why would he be looking' aspect of things, but that kind of misses the point. Vadar being on the alert would not be a factor when considering where to hide the kids away. Clearly, he did not have a clue his children were alive, at least not between what transpires in ROTS and ESB. That said, it was a pretty big advantage for Obi and Yoda, right? One would think they would go to great lengths to make sure Vadar never finds out so much as a whiff about his children being alive. But no, what do they do? They set him up with Anakin's family, not only that, but in the last place his mother lived, with the names Padme selected AND with his damn surname.
Come on. That's like saying, oh. This serial killer is after me. Instead of hiding myself really well, I will stand out in the open with a big ass X flashing over my head and HOPE that he overlooks me. My point is, it is exceedingly stupid because they are, in effect, relying on Vadar to keep Luke's identity secret. They are relying on his actions (or the lack thereof) to keep this boy who is their last hope (one of them) alive and well instead of being on the affirmative and locking him away somewhere. That is why it makes zero sense. It has nothing to do with whether or not Vadar was looking for his kids or not, but it has everything to do with the decision of two men who are, arguably, the wisest fuckers in the universe. Why would they take such a risk? And make no mistake, it was a risk. What if some random person mentioned some Skywalker kid who flies really well and Vadar just happens to overhear? Point again being that knowing they can exert little control over the future and what random information might fall into Vadar's lap, why take the risk? Also, given the fact that Anakin was trained at an older age (despite the reservations of many) and it eventually led to him becoming a Sith... I just find it odd that they would do the same with his son. Learn from your mistakes, much?
It can be argued that, going along with the 'Anakin brought balance to the force by destroying the two old factions on both ends' that were set in 'absolute ways' (a shaky argument, but let's assume), it can also be argued that they wanted Luke to have attachments and emotions etc. But for one, he could form attachments with anyone, as evidenced with Leia. Putting him with his father's family in such a risky location was not necessary. Also, Yoda would not have been all grumpy and talking about Luke being too old to train, because why the hell would he bitch about something that was part of his master plan to begin with?
All in all, sorry to say it and I do love the OT and can salvage something from the prequels (a little something... not much) but it really does suggest that GL is making this up as he goes along. I don't know if many of you have written a chaptered story or hell, even attempted to write well, but I have. Several of my friends have. Any writer worth his or her salt does think about little links and ties such as this... and if he truly had it all set in his head years ago, he would have realized that things weren't adding up. And we are not talking about things that GL has completely ignored due to it being irrelevant to the story. This is not being nitpicky over something that doesn't matter. I am talking about glaring errors in logic in the meta, or main plot. *shrugs* He made it relevant and I mean, if I (and countless other fans) can sit here and see that it doesn't work, surely he can given all the damn money he gets from the movies?
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Oh yeah, it's a SW talkback. i didn't think it inhibited his performance, but man, that transformation kinda freaked me out. Alright, it really freaked me out. He reminded me of Large Marge.
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I guess PowerMetal1 can't come up with a comeback to his own theory: that Titanic is better than Empire Strikes Back based soley on the box office.
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WOOKIES > EWOKS BITCHES
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I was waiting for the big moment when Palpatine pulls a Ceasar and declares himself Emperor for life. Never happened. However towards the end of the film people start referring to him sometimes as Chancellor, sometimes Emperor. Was something cut? When he declared the first Galactic Empire did his title just automatically change?
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No comments on my ideas. I feel thelove on this talkback. ;)
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May 22, 2005 1:14:37 AM CDT
Padme Pregers - no birth control? Anakin couldn't control himsel
by warp11
It was a surprise when Padme was pregers...
So, if Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever; he couldn't control when he jizzed?
Padme had never heard of birth control?
I bet she fucked that guy she talks about during AOTC, she met when she was in the young senators thing or something.
blah -
Darth Sidious pulls Anakin into the web by alluding to this life creating power...he never says that he has it mastered. Later, he tells Anakin that if they work together, they can figure out the secret, etc. Thus, he is not the creator of Anakin. Jeez.
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Anyone else notice the stickers or notches on the side of Anakin's fighter when it crashed on Grevious's ship? Did he get a notch/sticker for every fighter he shot down? Is that very Jedi like?
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May 22, 2005 1:21:37 AM CDT
Fandom has a right to exist so long as those Slave Leia costumed
by monkey_king
Speaking of women...Where was Mon Mothma in the film? Are we to wait for the definitive Lucas-fied version that the fans want on DVD for the Mon Mothma scenes and more? I can't wait. Personally, I have to see it again so I can fully absorb it, but what I saw ROCKED. In the mean time I'll play some more of the ROTS game and reenact my own saber duels from the film. The game, BTW, does a pretty damn good job of summing up the whole film in between each level.
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What the heck was Anakin and Palpatine watching during that scene? It was some sort of blobs with streamers going from blob to blob? Huh?
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You know, I was told to check this site, I came on here just to see what kind of reviews there were, and what do I get? I get the biggest bunch of fuckin fags ever!!! Crying and bitching about dialogue in the movie, the way certain scenes looked or went down.
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I agree with RicCage, though. The turn to the dark side DID NOT work. And the "Noooooooo!" at the end as Darth Vader was ridiculous. It should have gone, "Where's Padme?" "She's dead. You killed her Lord Vader." "Fine."
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I like to put my nicely shaped lightsaber into women's asses--does that make me a filthy immoral faggot?
You're a toad of the highest order. -
Seriously, one talks back to Gen. Grevious (you're welcome), others are running away?! The battle droids seem sentient now... Huh?
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May 22, 2005 1:31:55 AM CDT
When Anakin sees Padme in child birth; we should see Luke's visi
by warp11
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Powermetal1, you said a movie was better in everyone's eyes (and not just the makers') if it made a shitload of money. You said EVERYONE in the business does this, not just Lucas.
And I think moviemaking has gone from a business into art (that is sometimes usurped by business pigs). I mean, Sgt. Pepper made music art; I'm sure the art of movies has had several of it's own Sgt. Pepper's. Star Wars is an example. It's not all business, you know
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I don't think they hid Luke there knowing who he would eventually become, they just wanted him somewhere with family who would care about him. If they planned it that way they would have started training earlier etc, and it kinda ruins the randomness of the originals.
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Why did Grevious have a cough? Why did he go from being so bad ass in the clone wars animated shorts on the cartoon channel to the character he was?
Why does Obi Wan stick out his two fingers when he is about to fight? Couldn -
It's obvious to me that you fucking people have nothing better to do than come here and post your bullshit opinions about a MOVIE! It's just a movie, just keep telling yourselves that. It's not a real world, you homos seem to criticize every goddamned line of the movie and go into so much detail about every scene and "If it were me, I would have done it this way". You know, if for nothing else, this has made me laugh. Laughing at how many worthless, lonely pieces of shit there really are in the world. I mean, Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ, have any of you ever actually seen a vagina? You fuckin homos just sit and bitch about movies. None of you have any talent, you just lash out at directors, actors, and complain about how shitty you think these movies are. Are all of you just mad that you will never be as talented as any of these people? Thank god this was a one time visit. Came here looking for reviews, got whiny bitch queers complaining and putting in their irrelevant two cents. Have nice lives, you unbelievably fucking stupid assholes! Later!
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It seemed like Qui Gon was past his jedi prime, so is Obi Wan like as his prime?
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The tatical screens when windu is speaking to Yoda and the other jedi via holovid, are almost the same as Star Wars. Enterprise could have learned a thing or two from how Ep 3 incorporated the tech of Ep 4.
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Has George lowered expectations so much that something even remotely resembling an okay movie causes the Fanboys to spooge? There are so many awful, amateurish moments in this movie that it hardly makes getting to the few good bits worth it.
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ninhead420 = too cool for school.
Rock on cool guy! -
Pull your cock out of your ass.
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May 22, 2005 2:08:21 AM CDT
Grievous coughed because Mace Chocked his chicken in the Clone W
by gornpirate
Seriously...Mace used the force in the last episode of the Clone Wars cartoon to try to rip Grievous a new one but he escaped with this injury that makes him cough. George Lucas said this himself.
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May 22, 2005 2:09:09 AM CDT
Does the Emperor intentionally let Windu have him in a corner?
by warp11
It seems like the Emperor puts himself in a corner the second Anakin decides to show up. Is this all part of Palpatines game?
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May 22, 2005 2:19:08 AM CDT
What I want to know is: how many of you guys cried during the mo
by billemic
I'm not going to lie: the sight of Yoda cowering and defeated by the Emperor - forced to retreat from battle and flee into exile - was a traumatic experience for me. I've been trying to pick up the pieces ever since but to no avail. I think my childhood is dead. Thanks, Lucas.
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Judging from your username I'm guessing you jack off to the Asimov robot novels.
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You must have a tiny pecker then. tsk tsk.Can we all just stop talking about homo this and homo that. This is a Star Wars talkback. By the way, Yoda is an H'mo.
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You haters paid money to see a movie you wanted to hate in the first place!
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For me, it seemed the entire tone of the movie shifted when the Clone Troopers opened fire on Obi-Wan and he fell to the water below - he breaks through the surface and the music changes...from there, you know there's no going back. Tear-jerking moments include 1.) the slaughter of the Jedis at the ends of the Clone Troopers, 2.) Anakin's slaughter of the Younglings, 3.) Yoda defeated, 5.) Anakin force crushing Padme, 6.) Obi-Wan's desperate pleas during the final duel, 7.) Anakin's burning body and 8.) actually many more...Damn, I'm not going to pretend this movie doesn't have flaws - but I still think it's the most emotionally charged science fiction film of all time. I've never had a "popcorn movie" make me feel this much.
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May 22, 2005 2:33:13 AM CDT
Yeah, Positronic Cock, but only after she ass raped you with he
by forestal
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The funniest son of a bitch we've had on here for a while. All of you people taking it offensively are being idiots.
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May 22, 2005 2:37:12 AM CDT
I hope Lucas sticks Jar Jar into EMPIRE for the 6-disc DVD box s
by liberty valance
Just as a colossal FUCK YOU to all these salad-tossing prequel haters and OT purists. I've even got the perfect scene: right when Lando makes his announcement for the citizens of Cloud City to flee, we cut to Jar Jar on a street corner who begins flailing wildly and sqealing "Oh moie moie, weesa in deep doo doo!" Then he begins to run off and trips over a cute little Ewok in a delightfully witty sight gag. Maybe then these cunty bashers would go kill themselves and spare the rest of the world their pathetic vitriol.
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If you were driving your car and somebody in another car honked at you, what would you do?
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I'm a sad-ass 411 operator who makes 5 every couple weeks, and all I've been getting calls for is STAR WARS, STAR WARS, STAR WARS. And no they don't want movie showtimes, they want to friggin CONNECT to the theatre to see if it is sold out! These geeks don't understand the concept of multiple screens!! I try to explain to these people that every cinema I bring up in my directory has maybe four screens at least for SW, but no they're afraid its sold out. Their precious star warts might be sold out. Yeah right. It is making money no doubt but gimme a break. Whether going to see it midnight on Wednesday or Sunday afternoon, the movie experience is all the same. I just know I'll contribute to Lucas' 5-day opening B.O. like I have for the first two prequels.
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I can't think of a witty come back.
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rofl, star warts.
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Uh, you guys need to get a fuckin' life, it's just a movie
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That guy was funny.
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Fist off, I love this movie. The only major flaw, to me, is not so much Anakin's sudden turn, as much as as it is him killing the younglings. He turned to the dark side to save Padme. He was willing to do anything, and i can buy him doing almost anything, but for him to go so evil as to kill children goes too far. Even as the film progresses and you see him killing separatists, you see a tear in his eye, you see him conflicted by it ("I see the good in you, a conflict" ROTJ). But to kill children went too far, too fast. Without that scene, Anakin's turn works for me. But when he kills younglings, it is a powerful scene in terms as how far Anakin (Vader) is willing to go, but I don't think you need it. To me, Anakin does not truly turn until he sees Obi Wan in Mustafar and feels he has been betrayed by the woman he loves.
Long story short, that one scene to me is the only major problem in the film. Other than that, I think it is fantastic.
I hope there won't be any more episodes on film. Yes, Lucas did not do a great job with the prequel trilogy, by any means, but he finished it right with Revenge of the Sith, and unless someone can come up with a truly great story for a new trilogy, then it should end here. -
I saw it and I liked it. Here's why. It is a horror movie... a sureal, campy horror movie. First off some background. I love the first two SW movies. E4 is a classic and it has aged well. E5 I fell in love with and saw again and again and again in the summer of 80 ( I was a 14 yr old with no real conection to the world around me at the time) E5 set up the promise for some real cool shit to come. See Gary Kurtz interview..... And then comes E6..... Not the worst movie ever - in fact it has none of the really truely bad scenes on display in Sith, but it also has none of the really great scenes in Sith either... Sith is a schitzo movie for sure. Lucas had the chance to keep going with the set up in Empire, but chose to make a disney like happy bland ending with Ewoks and all....... yawn. And Luke and Leia being brother and sister? Lame lame lame. Clunking weak plot device. doesn't flow naturally from the first two movies. Shifting paradigms without a clutch.... clunk clunk clunk ....We all know this. Still the movie has its moments and it does wrap things up without totally killing the series and disintigrating into a pile of poo. No he saved that fate, that stake in the heart, for the prequels..... BUT that's WHY I LIKE Sith! Even though Jedi wasn't bad, it took a potentially great series and brought it to a clumsy, unsatisfying end. Sith, on the other hand, takes a series that was going abso-fucking-lutley NO WHERE and moves it toward where it needed to go in the first place. Too little, too late, to be sure.... but man the movie has some passion and feeling to it! I also love the weird irony that Lucas has spent all the time since Jedi (including this one) making Kiddie friendly movies and then comes up with this really disturbing, un-Kiddie, shit at the end. Trauma to the masses! Trauma to the little ones!..... Love it! Anti-heros for the under 10 generation anyone? And the bad, poorly executed scenes in Sith just add to it. It makes Anakin's fall that much more weird and surreal. It's like "I'm Anakin Skywalker and my life is going to hell and it's so weird and so bad, I can't believe it. It's like like a BAD movie!" Truth is stranger than fiction. And make no mistake, I think the horror really comes through in the end! Cool cool cool. But so does the camp. I will see this movie again simply because I can't think of any recent movie that is so disturbing in parts and yet has such total camp value in others. Swinging from unintentional laughter to horror and back again. Great! Not what SW should have been, mind you, but a unique experience all the same. So here's to what could have been, but also to the best worst movie in a long time!
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In order from best to worst: A New Hope > Revenge of the Sith > The Empire Strikes Back > Attack of the Clones > The Phantom Menace > Return of the Jedi.
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Oh. This is why I don't waste my time on this talkback.
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But I guess I already have wasted by time on this talkback. But Serious, I wouldn't put Empire behind ANH or ROTS. Nor would I put ROTJ as the worst of Star Wars. But at least it's a discussion.
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I think he's Positronic Cock...
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"You are reckless!"
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Is my only complaint. To all the extreme haters, not people with complaints just the haters, get the stick out of your ass and relax and have some fun watching movies. I mean goodness if you calm down you might like a movie once and a while. Also to note ROTS was better than ROTK which had the worse ending ever, even worse than "NOOOO!!!" is a bunch of hobbits bouncing and hugging on a bed. PS that green jedi chick who gets shot in the back is HOT. The tv series should just focus on her and the egg head guy if its gonna be based during the Clone Wars.
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is Aayla Secura, and she's blue, not green. The egg head guy is Ki Adi Mundi. The TV series will be set between Episodes III & IV. The cartoon will be about the Clone Wars.
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Good point about bad endings, spectrebeeyatch. Frodo in bed with all of his pals hugging and celebrating was pretty crappy. But the LOTR is still great, just like Star Wars. Why compare? Can't we all just love movies again???!
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May 22, 2005 3:48:55 AM CDT
spectrebeeyatch - At last someone speaks some sense - (to a cert
by forestal
First of all the ROTK ending was on par (minus the Hobbits jumping around on the bed bit) with the awesome ROTS ending. Secondly, the "cone head guy" or Ki Adi Mundi was killed by Clone Troopers. And yes we'd all like to bang Aayla Secura.
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You don't post over at tdsexperience.com as SleeperCell do you?
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May 22, 2005 4:07:59 AM CDT
Be careful, cause the geeks almost got into a fight at my theate
by the founder
It was a funny momment to see the SW geeks get into a tussle over some seats. SW really is that important.
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When I first heard the spoiler that Padme
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May 22, 2005 4:16:26 AM CDT
ROTS was half and half, and only just the best of the prequals.
by the founder
This movie had its momments, but overall it was loaded with flaws, which i won't even get into to. I just don't buy Anikin as Vader, maybe it was the actor himself. I'm starting to think that someone like Leo or Joshua Jackson would've delivered or at least look mor threatening. Some of you die hard fans will support this movie no matter what. The 1st matrix and x2 was better then all three prequlas.
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He showed maybe not the prowess, but the ambition with "Comic Book: the Movie." He loves these characters like we do, and likely has some swing with Lucas. "Episode VII staring, and directed by Mark Hamill." Mark, if you're reading this, make it happen.
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Ok, being the lifelong SW fan that I am, I loved it. And prequel haters can kiss my Jedi ass. I got my money
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May 22, 2005 4:42:44 AM CDT
I didn't cry for the Younglings, I didn't cry for Padme, but I w
by grabthars_hammer
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May 22, 2005 4:48:57 AM CDT
Oh, the OTHER 2 things that would have made SITH infinitely bett
by commando cody
In my last post I said there were 3 things that would have pushed the movie over the top for me, but only talked about one -- preserving EMPIRE'S "I am your father" revelation. The other two things I would have preferred in SITH were (1) Qui Gon appearing. Lucas should have gone for it. He blew that one, too. I think the scene in the conference room when Yoda says "Stay here, I have one last thing to teach you" would have rocked SOOOOOO much more if Yoda's speech was cut and he simply said something shorter and sweeter like (in Yoda-ese) "Last 2 Jedi are we two, Obi Wan. Into hiding till the time is right, we must go. But before you go, I will now share with you a mystery that has always eluded Jedi, but one which a Jedi Master has finally solved. Save us...save the future...perhaps it will." And then -- BOOM! -- let Qui Gon fade in. He doesn't need to talk or say anything. Just let the shimmering ghost appear and smile at his former Padawan. THAT would have ruled rather than Yoda just talking because VISUALLY you'd get the story point across about Jedi turning into one with the Force. The funny thing is, I can see Lucas saying "Well, I shot it, but cut it because I didn't want to give the surprise away. I wanted to save the surprise for NEW HOPE where Obi Wan gets cut down and comes back." But going back to my other post, why the fuck would you want to preserve THAT secret plot twist BUT give away the coolest one of all, EMPIRE'S "I am your father"? Besides, seeing Qui Gon fade in would have brought the PREQUELS full circle...brought the funeral pyre full circle..and thus a key story point that started in the prequels would be REVEALED in the prequels, making them seem more complete as a trilogy. And finally (3) like others, I will say I could have done without the Vader "NO!" I would have preferred to play it up more VISUALLY. I would have preferred to see him rip the room apart longer,things flying, the Emperor cackling and if you wanted to emotionally ham it up, fine, Vader can fall to his knees before his new master in resignation and anger and all the emotions Anakin must be feeling in the suit. But the vocalization was weak and could go...and Lucas could have spared a few more seconds to show more "force ripping" of the room. Then again, going back to keeping EMPIRE'S surprise, I don't think Vader in costume now really needed to be in this movie at all!
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It's the first time and last time we see Vader emote anything besides hatred. It kind of makes sense it's weird. Too weird probably, but I think thats the reason.
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Empire was made before, and meant to be seen before ROTS. You can't ruin a suprise you've already seen. Do you also propose not revealing the twin's birth? Should the Emporer not even say the name Vader, since that too gives away his identity. Maybe they should recut the films to not give away Anikins last name. Yeah...flashbacks in Jedi...good idea. Retard.
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going into costume and having the helmet clamped on (btw, the point of the whole movie) would not only outrage fans, but also ruin the helmet removal in Jedi. As is, that scene is now strengthened by this film.
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I was expecting better from EP3 but it was still too much like 1&2. Cheesy dialogue=check, wooden acting=check, playstation effects=check. For all the extra bucks Lucas had for the new films, I feel that I saw more of different, interesting worlds in the OT, was it just me or did everything seem to take place at a window in Coruscant with flying cars whizzing past? The fight scene on the Wookee planet also seemed to be a fight scene we never saw!!! Way too short. The lava planet too at the end was way too boring and orange to be a good backdrop for the ultimate scene in the movie. When it comes to space battles too, less is more..the opening space battle was far too busy..I just couldn't focus on anything enough to enjoy...compare this to the final battle in EP6. I could go on, but this movie had way too many flaws. As said so much before, the OT will stand the test of time much better than EP1-3, obviously made for the MTV generation........
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!HAHAHA loved that,hahaha or how bout when yoda fell like 1000 feet and was ok,HAHAHABLAHAHAH,okok admit it nobody was sure who Chewbacca was intill yoda said his name HAHAHA OH MY GOD!!!HOLEY SHEEP SHIT!!!TOO mUch to ripe up on now gota passout..HAHAHAHA
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Sure he went out the window..But We never did see him splat. Sure he might be dead by ANH IV...But Maybe he lived?
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Just a quick Episode I query for the dedicated. Why when the red forcefield doors/airlock filters open again doesn't Obi Wan run like he did at the start to avoid the Droidekas?
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With your great ideas...show me your unprecidented 6 episode epics exploring mythology and politics and cyclical family dynamics over generations in an entirely original universe of your own creation. Maybe while you're at it you can invent new technologies to create and enjoy films. Then we'll all bash you and tell you how worthless and untalented you are.
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Lucas should stop trying to tell original stories and just re-make old movies and classic books and create designs from everyones collective memories (and from the old versions of the story) and then desaturate all the colors and keep the lighting low and include lots of long speeches and exclude any scenes that might be important...then maybe audiences might appreciate his work as much as LOTR.
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May 22, 2005 5:47:53 AM CDT
http://www.leiasmetalbikini.com/members/whatsnew.html
by trevor goodchild
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May 22, 2005 5:49:33 AM CDT
http://wizbangblog.com/images/2005/darth_leia_coloring_book.php
by trevor goodchild
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May 22, 2005 6:01:24 AM CDT
Sorry, OwnedbyGeorge, but you're talking out of your ass. Comman
by big dumb ape
Let's run through YOUR arguments, shall we? You said "Empire was made before, and meant to be seen before ROTS. You can't ruin a suprise you've already seen." Ok, first off that's totally NOT true. Yes, EMPIRE was technically MADE before ROTS, but that's only by virtue of the way Lucas filmed the saga out of order. But you're talking out of your ass when you say its meant to be SEEN before ROTS. That's utter Lucas apologist bullshit you're tossing, so fling it some other way. Clearly the way the movies are meant to be WATCHED by all future generations is in order -- starting with PHANTOM MENACE. That's why it's numbered fucking Chapter ONE...Sith is Chapter THREE..and Empire is Chapter FIVE. Notice the way numbers going UP in progression the way they're SUPPOSED to? Going by your whacked logic, you're telling me that you read a murder mystery by STARTING IN THE MIDDLE, read to the end and find out "who did it", and then you flip the book BACK to page 1 and read the beginning to get the set up. Like THAT makes any fucking sense. Once Lucas made PHANTOM MENACE and declared it "Chapter One" front and center in the scroll he was clearly saying "Ok, this is the definitive order you're supposed to watch the movies in and the order you're supposed to be exposed to plot elements in." You also say "Do you propose not revealing the twins birth?" Actually, you can keep that. That's NOT a problem at all. The birth of the twins don't affect anything going in order. In short, there's no reason you CAN'T know that Luke -- as a grown young man in NEW HOPE -- is Anakin's son. There's no reason to hide his Skywalker birth lineage in NEW HOPE, other than to sit there in the theater and think "Oh, this is the kid Yoda and Obi Wan DON'T want the Emperor to find." All Cody's proposing (which I totally agree with him on, now that I think about it more and more) is that Lucas could have kept the plot element that ANAKIN is still alive a revelation. And he's right. If Lucas cut SITH so you DON'T see Palpatine rescuing Anakin...so that you THINK Anakin died out on the lava fields, laying there limbless and engulfed in flames, screaming out after Obi Wan in pain...and if you cut it so you DON'T see the armor getting slapped on and the birth of Vader, you can keep EMPIRE'S revelation intact. Because jumping from ROTS to NEW HOPE, all we'd now simply see is Darth Vader coming aboard the Blockade Runner and -- in watching the saga in order -- you'd just get the immediate impression that 20 years later...like Maul once was, like Dooku once was, like Greivous once was...this is simply the new bad ass in town working for the Emperor. But going by the cuts Cody was talking about, when Vader strolls onto the Blockade Runner --hell, for the rest of that whole movie given what happens in it -- you'd never be thinking "Oh, that's Anakin" now. As I said, you'd just think it's a villain the way we ALL grew up thinking he was UNTIL the revelation in EMPIRE came along and shocked us all. Then you say "Should the Emporer not even say the name Vader, since that too gives away his identity?" Hey, that's easy to get around. Lucas could've easily reworked the dialogue in the scene where Anakin turns and simply played it out differently. All he had to do was take out the bit of Palpatine bequeating the name Vader on him -- end of problem. Then you say "Maybe they should recut the films to not give away Anikin's last name." But going back to re-editing, again, it's no big deal about the name "Skywalker" being out there SO LONG AS AT THE END OF ROTS YOU END THE DUEL WITH THE NOTION THAT ANAKIN DIES OUT THERE. That's where Cody's right and I'll say it again. It DOESN'T effect NEW HOPE if you know Luke Skywalker is Anakin's son all grown up now -- all that effects things is knowing that ANAKIN survived the lava pit, which is what editing could have kept secret, thus keeping the whole fucking POINT of the revalation in EMPIRE intact. Finally you say "Yeah, flashbacks in Jedi. Good idea. Retard." Hey, retard, he's right again. I have to say, not to give Cody a reacharound hand job, I love this idea of his. I am totally digging it because he's right -- the "birth of Vader" sequence WOULD work better in ROTJ given what happens in that movie. But this is all hindsight. And why? Because this is the price you pay for filming something out of order and THEN trying to glue the elements together so they make sense. But I agree with Cody. ROTJ is the film which has Vader dealing with his feelings and his conscience and IS the movie where he switches sides and restores balance to the Force at last. So having a scene in THAT movie where one minute he remembers being in his prime and being a smiling, young handsome Jedi placed against the memory of being a melted blob of flesh on a table all because he betrayed his friends and killed his wife and seeing the helmet going on then WOULD play out more emotionally and powerfully. And it would make a hell of a lot more sense as a dramatic "build up" since in NEW HOPE we're exposed to Vader as a bad ass, but we all wonder what's under the hood...in EMPIRE we get that shot from behind where he's sitting and the helmet is lowered and you can see he's one scarred motherfucker, but you can't tell just HOW badly, but you know it's obviously pretty fucking bad...so building upon that, it would then make the most sense to culminate all that in ROTJ, to culminate it there by showing once and for all "what" happened and how he survived. Because just like a mystery, now in the FINAL CHAPTER you reveal all. But going back to what I said earlier, that's the problem with filming out of order the way Lucas did and with Lucas retroactively deciding to rewrite things and making particular elements of the saga up as he went along (which, let's face it, boys and girls, he clearly did given some plot holes that STILL exist in the saga). Truth is, if Lucas filmed 1-6 IN ORDER, I'd bet the way Cody outlined it IS the way Lucas would have gone. Why? Simple. To make shocking revelations pay off. To build element upon element. But because he filmed it ass backwards and out of order, he tossed up his hands at this last chapter and said "Oh, fuck it. People know the big surprise, so why hide it?" Which is too bad because what George should have been focusing on is FUTURE generations of kids who'll watch these films in order. And thus, like Cody...and I'm sure like a lot of others here...I wish Lucas had burned the midnight oil a bit more at the word processor scriptwriting so EMPIRE'S revelation could STILL be something that pays off and could have remained one of movie history's coolest moments.
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To be honest, this movie hit me even harder watching it a second time. It's an instant classic. I rank it 3rd in the series for the simple fact that Empire and A New Hope are perfect films in my opinion. The good stuff in RoTS rivals anything in those films but for the mistakes here and there in RoTS (i.e.- Vader's "NO!", bad dialogue, etc.), I place it below ANH and Empire.
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Fuck! I have to say I really hadn't thought of it that way, Big Ape, but it is sort of obvious now in retrospect. So I guess that's true. The EMPIRE revelation could have still worked and stayed intact SO LONG as we were lead to believe that the trunk of Anakin died out there in the lava pits writhing in pain and on fire, screaming out, making us all think "Well, looking at his surroundings and his predicament, THAT fucker's toast!" So, ok, count me in as one who thinks Lucas should have structured the film a bit better to keep EMPIRE'S big moment intact simply because -- let's face it -- it IS the biggest in your face, takes the air out of your lungs revelation in the entire saga, and now it's just...gone. Now it's just a movie line versus the way we all grew up with it, which was this gasp out loud "WHAT THE FUCK?!?" classic movie moment.
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she doesn't KNOW Padme was her mother. She thinks some other woman was her mother... of course it should never have turned out that way - those kids should have been born in episode 2.
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Doesn't it seem as though Lucas would have originally planned to have Luke and Leia be older when Padme dies?... ugh. Debating these films isn't worth the effort.
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Something mentioned in the second post. I can't believe anyone would find this film to be anything less than enjoyable, and for fans of the films, it was spectacular. There's emotion and danger in this film - everything goes to hell and a hero won't ascend for a good 20 years after the chaos. But hey, let's compare it to LOTR like we always do.......
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can anyone explain to me how palpatine can look like himself to some and then look like sidious to others? does it just depend on who's looking at him? and if he's able to change his look from one to another, how come he doesn't change his face back to palpatine's when he talks to the senate at the end?
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May 22, 2005 6:50:20 AM CDT
Trying to justify Padme's death doesn't really work with the Pal
by iamnicksaicnsn
It's true, he probably has a good reason for her to be dead, but if he had that power, he probably wouldn't have stopped with her, and killed the twins, as well. Vader, really, could have killed her through pure subconscious will. But either way, we'll never know how. Still a fantastic movie. After finals, I'll probably try to go for a I,II,CW,III,IV,V,VI marathon. Even though that might kill me.
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I guess I'll just have to make sure my kids see the OT before the NT. And when he's not scarred, Palpatine doesn't look like Sidious, Sidious just has a hood over his head.
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May 22, 2005 7:06:31 AM CDT
How much did this movie rule all? I say give McDiarmid a BEST SU
by triumph poops!
I've seen ROTS twice now (Friday and Saturday) and each time I loved it more. It's a gorgeous movie to sit there and look at, and I'm definitely going again next weekend once I catch my breath and collect a few thoughts. Emotionally this baby left me DRAINED, and I mean that in a good, satisfying experience way. I love reading the talkbacks because lots of you -- pro and con -- have pointed things out and given me things to think about at the next screening. So thanks to all my fellow geeks. All in all, I thought the movie kicked ass and I don't understand the naysayers dumping on it as downright visciously and brutally as some people have. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a summer popcorn movie and it completely delivered. I'll tell you this, effects-wise you can hand it the Oscar right now. And as for those bitching about the acting, I'm not going to use the standard bit of "Oh, come on, it's Star Wars. What did you expect? This isn't Shakespeare." I won't go that route simply because I thought the acting was fine in this. That's right, naysayers, FINE. Yes, the Anakin-Padme scene on the balcony was a stiff ("I love you", "No, I love you", "No, I love you more", "No, I love YOU more!") but that wasn't the acting, that was just bad scriptwriting (sorry, George, but it was a clunker moment). NO ONE could have saved that scene. But that exchange aside, I thought the other Anakin-Padme scenes were tolerable to downright moving. And Ewan RULES as Obi Wan. In fact, now it's even hard for me to think about old, teacher-like Alec Guiness in the part simply because Young Obi out kicking collective galactic ass is burned into my brain now. I thought Hayden was on the money and I totally bought his turn to the Dark Side, and his anger for feeling the Jedi had betrayed him and fucked him right up the ass. I even thought Portman did all right, too. Despite all the naysaying, I thought she seemed A LOT more relaxed and natural this time around compared to her first two outings. And McDiarmid fucking owned all asses in this. You never thought twice about him being one manipulative, evil mother fucker. I know in a million years the Academy wouldn't give him an Oscar for this -- that the Academy would snub its nose at the very idea of giving out a Star Wars ACTING Oscar -- but I'm sorry, that was Oscar level work. He was fucking riveting and totally mesmerizing every second he was onscreen and you were totally into his character. THAT'S acting. Come the next Oscars, I'll bet you right now his acting in this movie will EASILY stand head and shoulders above at least 2 of the people that the Academy picks for "Best Supporting Actor". Mark my words, you know it's true!!!!
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The impression I got, which may be wrong, who the fuck knows, is that Palpatine wore a mask (which I guess would work well metaphorically as well, although it basically means the same thing) that was burned off when he was trying to kill Mace Windu. Guess that doesn't account for the yellow eyes though. Next time I see Lucas I'll ask him (that was a joke, of course; I won't ask Lucas about that next time I see him).
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Yeah you are beautiful, but you don't mean a thing to me...
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Gotta say, all the acting in this one impressed me mightily... EXCEPT for Portman's. Guh. She was horrible. Seriously. But Hayden earned a lot of respect and Ewan ruled as always.
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May 22, 2005 7:32:14 AM CDT
Ribbons, upon reflection, it's a toss up. Maybe I'm blurring thi
by triumph poops!
Overall, after 2 screenings, I really did think Portman was better and more natural this time out, certainly compared to PHANTOM MENACE which I watched on TV the other night and I was really stunned by how much I thought she was just miserably so much stiffer than I remembered. But I'm willing to concede 2 things: one, maybe I thought she was better because she wasn't around as much this episode out (since being pregnant they couldn't exactly put her into the big action set pieces)...and, two, I thought Hayden REALLY upped his game this time around as did all the others. I thought Sam Jackson was less of a stand-offish, disinterested ass this time, Ewan ruled as always, and as I said in my post, I thought McDiarmid owned all. And for the minor bit players, even when somebody wasn't speaking, it just seemed like Lucas framed and directed shots better so you "felt" more about whoever was onscreen. So upon reflection -- and given your post -- maybe I'm subconsciously giving Portman a pass because EVERYONE ELSE AROUND HER was so much better this time around.
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great film, great moments, great performances - sure to grow in stature
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George -
Vader's "noo." needs tweaking.
really, it should be the blood-curdling scream of a man who's abandoned everything he believes in, becoming the darkest monster imaginable, turning his back on his closest friend and master, slaughtering innocent children; a scream that forebodes 20+ years of galactic tyranny and mass murder; a scream that chills the blood and makes us all finally UNDERSTAND the blackness of Vader's despair that motivates his character in ANH, ESB & ROTJ - instead of... not.
you can tweak that shit for the SE, tho', right? -
sorry, forgot to say: "...slaughtering kids etc., - and getting severely mash-up in the process: only to be told it was all for nothing, the girl croaked anyway..."
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Say he's about 30 in TPM? Is that a bit old to still be a padawan? Then he would be ca 40 in Aotc, 42 in RotS and 62 in ANH. He can't be any younger than sixty in ANH, can he? BTW, RotS is, to me, perfect.
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she croaked BECAUSE anakin became obsessed with saving her. Therein lies the real tragedy. He made his own premonitions true. How greek.
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May 22, 2005 7:52:30 AM CDT
You know what I didn't like about Vader's scream? Too tinny.
by triumph poops!
I don't mind that Lucas went the route of verbalizing Anakin's pain and having him yell out "Noooooo!" Having him scream in anquish over all the elements that have brought him to this particular place, this particular fate, didn't bother me. What I DIDN'T like about the moment (following up on Ikkyu's post) was James Earl Jones' scream. I agree -- tweak it. Redo it. Do SOMETHING. It just seemed to be...off. It seemed like it was weaker than it should have been. Or tinnier, for lack of a better word. Certainly giving that incredibly powerful, booming, echoing voice that James Earl Jones has even naturally. So augmented for the screen...for the moment...it seems like it needed to be LOUDER and more BOOMING and literally ECHOING through the theater to the point of making the walls rattle, making full use of a THX sound system. So that as you said it would be more of a moment defining the grim days to come, as opposed to what it is now which seemed a bit limp. I'd be tempted to defend it by saying it was just the speaker system at my local theater fritzing, but the rest of the movie's sound levels were booming whenever they needed to. So since all the OTHER stuff was perfectly fine, it leads me to agree the scream they used was just off. So, yeah -- replace it or redo it, but fix it for the DVD release for sure. Pump it up more, George! Given the record breaking box office weekend you're having, I'm sure you can afford to pay Jone's to come into a recording studio and howl a few more takes!
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listen to Commander Cody and Big Dumb Ape. They make some excellent points that would improve not just Sith, but the whole series. Lucas went for the quick buck/instant gratification angle of seeing Vader "born" instead of thinking in terms of the whole. You could argue that the moment is still plenty dramatic knowing the secret (and it is) but remembering the mind blowing shock of that revelation makes me think it should have been left intact.
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I bought a ticket promising entrace to "Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith." I went into the designated theater at the desginated time with a group of friends holding similar tickets. I sat in the same row with them for a half hour before the movie started. I hooted at the same FF and WotW trailers as they did. I stared ahead at the screen big screen along with them and everyone else in the packed theater reading a great title crawl, and then...somehow I end up having watched a far, far inferior product to the one everyone else in the world is cheering over. How in the world did this happen? The movie I saw...Terrible script. Hideous acting from actors who know can and usually electricfy the screen with their presence. Horrible editing. Flimsy and confusing character motivation for Anakin. (I love Padme but I cannot tell anyone! Padme pregnant? Oh, what a complication! Aah! Bad dream! Like the ones I had before I slaughtered all those Tusken women and children! Padme going to die? I have to save her! Oh, no, evil Sith! Must warn Jedi! Wait! Sith can save Padme if I kill everyone who's ever cared about or trusted me? And then we can make the galaxy pay for making us keep our love secret? Hmm. *bzzzzz*) The only stand out moments were the Yoga/Emporer battle, the padawan desperately trying to escape the temple while Bail Organa stands there like a tool as the clone troopers shoot the kid like a dog in the street, most of the stuff with Sidious BEFORE he morphs into Emporer Pumpkinhead (excluding the already mentioned Yo/Sidi fight), and Padme's one great line in the Senate. (That still rings as hypocritical because she sat around most the movie looking furrowed or trading pseudo-romantic nonsense with Ani.) I'm glad so many folks loved this movie, but for me the Emporer has no clothes. And if you think his face is ugly, be glad you ain't see his wrinkled old arse! Eugh! Pity me, friends and strangers, for I spy Heaven elsewhere from you.
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Fry's tortured scream over his destroyed sandcastle in "Futurama" had more depth, and that was intentionally played for laughs. Sidious: Darth Vader, I regret to inform you we're out of toilet paper." Vader: NOOOOOOOOOO! It's not wonder he eventually went around Force-choking all those Imperial officers. They were no doubt snickering behind his back at the "Dark Lord of the Sissy." Those who suggested silence/no scream, you're on the money. But this is George's movie, and that scream remains until he gets bored of it. Sigh.
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The movie I saw was complex, intense and well executed. I would love to see yoga fighting though.
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But I hate yogurt! Even with strawberries! ;) Horrible spelling aside, please believe me that I truly wanted to like this movie. I've loved SW since my childhood in the 1970s. One of my happiest memories of first grade is when our teacher read to us from of the Star Wars junior novelization. Our class never paid as much attention to her as we did that day! There's talk of a generational divide over these prequels and the OT, but there's plenty of fanboys over 30 like me who're praising ROTS. Like I said, pity me for I do not see what you all behold. *Goes to corner to sob quietly*
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May 22, 2005 8:31:01 AM CDT
"Lucas should listen to Commando Cody and Big Dumb Ape. They mak
by triumph poops!
You know, I scrolled back to Cody's post about how Lucas should re-edit a Director's cut to keep the EMPIRE revelation intact and after re-reading it and really picturing it in my head, I'm a bit blown away by it now simply because upon reflection, his suggestion is utterly fucking brilliant because it's SO OBVIOUS. So I'm with you, Mr. Brownstone. Cody's suggestion is so on the head, it really would hit the ball out of the park. It really would improve the saga overall when you look at ALL six movies as one big unit. Don't get me wrong, I loved ROTS. I had a great time. It's gonna be one of my top movies of the year, no question about it, and it's aleady my second favorite Star Wars flick. But I'll be fair and open enough (even as a SW geek) to say this: I know Lucas has lots of "yes men" around him, but Cody's idea fucking rules! George, take it and run with it in that ultimate high definition DVD expanded director's version that I always hear rumors about. It would be better storytelling AND would preserve EMPIRE's kick ass moment. In fact, how the fuck did no one -- not even Spielberg when he was ghost directing storyboards and helping Lucas out on ROTS -- convince George this was the way to go? To keep a classic movie moment like EMPIRE's revelation intact because the saga would be better for it? What, were people THAT afraid to point something this obvious out to George?
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Your heartfelt lament made me appreciate how lucky I am. You saw the crescent, we saw the whole of the moon (of Jego, I think.)
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If things had gone a little differently, Luke or Leia could have been named "Ah, Fuck, I'm Dying!" instead.
Also, why didn't Lucas digitally stick Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher's faces on those babies? Where was he on that one? Totally would have enhanced my movie-going experience.
That CGI-happy bastard... -
I will leave now before I become trollish, which is not my desire. Just one last thing: Commando Cody's suggestions are indeed great. Hopefully Cody's working in Hollywood, and if not he/she should be. We need more folks like that behind the cameras!
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"He turned to the dark side to save Padme. He was willing to do anything, and i can buy him doing almost anything, but for him to go so evil as to kill children goes too far". This kind of annoyed me a bit at first too but remember, he's already killed a load of kids. They may have just been Tuscan Raiders but they were still children.
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You are the most offensive person i've ever come across. Who gives 2 shits about your opinion. Offending people's sexuality when discussing movies for children really is unbelievable. Go and learn something about the world before you open your mouth. The lack of education in America really is staggering and very worrying. It also helps explain you guys voting Bush back into power. Way to go guys, yankee doodle dandy toodle pip and all that jazz.
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May 22, 2005 9:12:02 AM CDT
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ariston/359195.html
by trevor goodchild
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...when the red forcefield airlock filter doors opened. He could have got to Qui Gon in time. Like he does when the Droidekas/destroyers attack on the Neimoidian's ship? Second time I've posted this query but I really want to hear some theories.
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So far I've not heard anyone recollect any nice little touches in ROTS. For example the way Maul 'Forces' a droids head to open the door in TPM or the Seismic Charges in AOTC. Anyone recall?
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I've seen many posts and reviews bitching that Anakin's turn to the dark side isn't convincing. Well, it actually DOES make sense. Anakin is OBSESSED with Padme. I mean, he's nuts. Frickin' wacko. He's been like that since TPM. Remember how he looked when he first sees her in Clones? Weirdo boy for sure. So, when he realizes he has a chance to save her, your damn right he's going to slaughter a few kids. No big deal when your NUTS! Plus it's hinted (just hinted) that Palpatine was behind the whole "immaculate conception" nonsense from TPM which probably didn't help with his psyche. So, yes, it makes perfect sense why he goes to the dark side.
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May 22, 2005 9:43:49 AM CDT
Trevor..... others have mentioned how much of a let down the sa
by russman
I think that's what they meant. And you are so right. All we got was a choke, toss and a push (sounds kinky). Most of the fights were uninspired and dull. Just guys hacking at each other. Man this movie was such a let down.
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I Loved the movie going to see it again today. The thing I don't get is why the people who say they hate it and the other prequels are also repeat viewers. Did they think it would change the second time around? Oh well the Ep. 1 still has the best lightsaber fight with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan VS. Darth Maul. The lightsaber battles in this were a close second. I liked the continuity with Clone wars too. when you hear Gen. Grevious hacking and coughing from the squeeze Windu put on him. Hard to watch the end though. The look on Obi-Wan's face when Yoda told him he would have to kill Anakin priceless.
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Younglings? Why not call them children? It sounded like Battlestar Galactica speak. Also, I don't buy the fact that Padme died because she had no will to live crap. She was suppose to be a strong character and she was going to be a mother. Strong maternal instinct would have kept her alive to take care of her children. For most women that instinct overtakes even the strength of the relationship one has with the father.
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...the second time around. It ain't great art like Tarkovsky or Fellini, but it sure is great entertainment. I think a lot of these talkbackers are being a bit nitpicky about this film, but I guess that's the point of having this talkback so people can discuss what they did and didn't like.
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I read a review that said ROTS is "an anti-Bush diatribe." Does anyone here feel the same way? I think that critic was going a bit over-the-top since Palpatine's rise can be paralleled with other leaders like Mr. Adolf Hitler.
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Walking out of the screening feeling like shit did I. It got really really boring after Dooku is killed for almost an hour with more inane bullshit and talking and more bullshit about General Grievous was supposed to be this ultimate jedi killing cyborg and what do we get..... a fucking cartoon character with the worst voice acting since Jar Jar. What was with that smokers cough, I thought he was always about to fall over or put on some breathing mask before talking, fucking aweful cgi creation. Sure he looked awesome wielding 4 lightsabres for about 5 seconds but who wouldn't....tweety pie could've pulled that off better. I was about to pass a damning verdict on this cartoon if it wasn't for one scene. The arrest of Palpatine which was great with a short but awesome fight with Mace Windu. I loved Palpatines transformation here. All down to one man and easily the greatest character in this film, Ian McDiarmid. Palpatine will go down in history as one of the greatest villains in the history of Cinema, if not the greatest, watching McDiarmid as Sidious is a joy to behold. A Demonic villian that just eats up the screen like I couldn't believe, but the whole thing with Anakin turning was unbelievably rushed - the biggest mistake in the prequel trilogy. Even Order 66 sucked and didn't have any impact whatsoever. To me the standout sequence in the whole film is Yoda Verses The Emperor which finally had the crowd going when he waddles in and takes out the two guards. Again this scene is great because the of Ian McDiarmid's showboating theatrics. As for the fight it was incredible, just visually amazing and playing Duel Of The Fates over it was an inspired choice....as they rise up through the floor of the conference chamber I was fucking freaking out and Yoda finally gets the ass kicking he deserves for having his head up his ass all these years. As for the Anankin V Obi-wan fight it was a massive letdown with the beating of Anakin being shit. I did like end result of his torso burning up and it looked horrible but with everything else it was too rushed. Vaders construction was done on fast forward and didn't have much impact. As for NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I think everyone agree's it fucking sucks big time, I heard stifled laughter and sniggers all around me and it finally dawned on me that Lucas really did fuck up this trilogy. As for the last shot in the film, what a load of shit, two fucking nobody actors no one gives two fucks about looking at a sunset.........
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May 22, 2005 11:10:38 AM CDT
Saw it. Enjoyed it, got home popped in A New Hope and the flow
by doobieflixx
Sith was not perfect but it was a major improvement on the previous 2 outings. I may even place it above ROTJ. But not after just one viewing. When I watched A New Hope immediatly afterwards, I was surprised how much more enjoyable it was with lead in of the Sith. I always loved it, this just made it a bit better. It is as if Alec Guiness knew there was going to be prequils made.
Regarding the Sith....Great opening...turned Juvinile for about 20 minutes....then the plot kicked in and it was enjoyable from that moment on. Suddenly the Ships began to age and look more like the original Star Wars films. Anakin (Hayden) was much better this time. Portman just isn't meant to read Lucas dialogue and Samuel Jackson was pretty bad. My fav's were Ewan as OBI-1, and Ian as the Emperor Palpatine. Those two are the only ones who could fit in alongside the original cast.
Final notes...Vader shouting "Noooooo" was a bad idea. Lucas must have known that that is cliche cheesiness. Very much a Simpsons moment.
Alot to like and dislike in this but it Star Wars...a movie I looked forward to so much that I prayed that I would live to see all 9 of. Well in the end only 6 turned up and I am satisfied. Thanks George Lucas! Thanks for entertaining my imagination as a child and as an adult as well. Thanks for not letting Jar Jar say another word. -
May 22, 2005 11:18:57 AM CDT
"Lucas didn't need to pander to Michael Moore, he needed to ente
by rastar
It's been interesting to read all the different points of view about the latest Star Wars film, and some of the suggestions about how it could have been better... But regardless of what we all think, the film is finished and it's out there for all to see, just as George Lucas intended. It's important to discuss it and debate whether it's good or bad, or somewhere in the middle. But ultimately, we will not be able to change the way it is... The reason I make this point is because I think it's easy to forget what George Lucas intended when he began making these films 30 years ago. He wanted to resurrect the old-fashioned movie -- as most of us would know. But he also wanted to make a political, social and artistic statement for the times. And whether you acknowledge it or not, that's what most filmmakers are trying to do when they make a film. Of course it's entertainment, but it's also storytelling for the masses and like religion or mythology, it's concerned with larger themes of good, evil, pride, anger, love and redemption. It's not only meant to please the fans, but to educate and inspire people who are too young to have learned about these ideas themselves, or whom have been taught (or indoctrinated) to believe that "our side" is better than "their side"... The references to Bush (and the policies of the Bush administration since 9/11), are used to show us that these themes and ideas are still relevant and in fact prevalent in the present day. It's Lucas' way of saying take a look at the world you're all living in - it's not that much different to the one on the screen. Or, it could be if we don't start paying attention.
I thought the film was fantastic, but not because it was a perfect film or because it answered every single question posed by the other parts, but because it was an amazing vision for any filmmaker to have, regardless of the previous films and as a testament to the evolutiuon of cinema and a respectful nod to the 1930s style of filmmaking, that Lucas is so fond of... I think Lucas will be remembered for his multitude of cinematic and pop/cultural achievements, not just the mixed critical reaction the prequels have received. SE -
Lucas may not have intentionally done this, but in certain scenes I was like woah that's freakin' W. An example would be when they first mention that Palpatine has gained extreme power because of the war. The big moment where I thought of Bush was when Amidala said, "that's how freedom dies, with applause". It seemed so like what has happened to a lot of our constitutional rights during the past few years. And yet most people think it
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I'm going to have to pounce on your: "I find your lack of intelligence disturbing..." post. To quote Peter Travers (whom I rarely agree with): "...the film follows Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen -- to merely call him wooden is an affront to puppets everywhere)". If you don't see even a hint of veracity in that assessment I submit that you're just one of the brainwashed, sycophantic, Lucas apologist masses. I like the film quite a bit but the performances (with the exception of McDiarmid and POSSIBLY McGregor) are TERRIBLE: Shockingly amateurish, stilted and soulless for film making at this level.
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And don't give me this balance of the force bull****. We're supposed to believe that Obi-Wan saying this is a mistake on his part and is a result of his lack of balance with the force? C'mon! Lucas is not that clever. He's simply selling out to the post-modern moral relativists because there is no one left to sell out to.
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May 22, 2005 11:40:15 AM CDT
loved the movie but can't understand one HUGE contradiction
by hoke mosley
Well, first of all, Im with the guys saying Palpatine and the Sith he later killed are responsible dor Anakin's birth. But I can
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May 22, 2005 11:42:59 AM CDT
"I liked the film quite a bit but the performances *AND DIALOGUE
by pontsing barset
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Bush was not elected in 2000, had the massive fraud not occurred in Florida he would have never went into office. In 2004 he used the fear created by 911 and an unnecessary war he started to get reelected. Why is that about 50% of American's think your way, but only a very small percentage of the rest of the free world would ever vote for a piece of garbage like him? Maybe it's our poor education system producing moron slaves who support oppression. Have you ever heard of personal freedom or diplomacy? Thought not, neither has Bush.
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I thought it was great. There were a couple of little nits here and there, but not being an ungrateful jackass who doesn't appreciate the hard work it takes to create something from a blank page, I will not mention them. As for "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" If I had just been told I had killed my pregnant secret wife in a fit of anger, I may scream something like that, too. But give Vader a break. He's spent his whole life talking like a white Canadian. He didn't have enough time to get used to speaking like an old black man to realize he needed to change his speech patterns to be most effective. And I must say, the Order 66 montage was pretty powerful stuff.
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I allowed myself to get drawn into politics in this forum. I kinda forgot we were supposed to be talking about the best Star Wars movie of all time, Revenge of the Sith.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute statement.
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May 22, 2005 11:58:51 AM CDT
Come on ... isn't anyone going to take me up on my FUTURAMA comp
by new in ny
I know we're all geeks here, so I know we've all seen that show backwards and forwards (maybe some of you even cracked the three separate alien codes embedded in the show) --- personally, I'm not interested in debating the merits of the PT as good cinema (SORRY Lucas; you lost me at "ex-squeeeeeze me") ... I'm more interested in wondering WTF was up with the droids PROGRAMMED to be goof-ups!!! I'm just surprised there weren't alcoholic robots, beggar robots, gangster robots ... hell, why not a Jedi robot? Or even a depressed robot (or is that too close to H2G2?) ... THIS IS A CALL TO ALL THOSE STILL STICKING BY THE FILM - I'm not trying to "hate" (whatever the hell that means in this context), I just want to know what's up with droids programmed to do dumb shit!
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May 22, 2005 12:00:51 PM CDT
That should say I want to punch him in the taint. Not "I'm want
by solame
still "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute statement.
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I've really enjoyed reading what has been (for the most part) a very thoughtful debate about Episode III. I can't wait to see it again and decide how I feel about it after a second viewing. Come on - when was the last time any filmmaker in Hollywood gave us a movie that *demanded* to be seen again like this? I agree that the movie has flaws - a few silly moments, some weak dialogue - but as I said earlier, I've never had a "popcorn movie" make me *feel* this much. It's an emotionally draining experience and worth every penny to see it on the big screen.
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Sounds like an interesting movie. I'll have to check it out. Will I need to see the other five to know what's going on? It almost sounds as good as Krull.
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Indeed, Conservatives do seem to be a bit unhinged these days; though, I think even your satire was a bit over the top ...
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If the story of the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire (and the depiction of this as a tragic thing) makes some people think that ROTS is an anti-Bush diatribe, that says more about Bush, America and the times we live in than it does about the movie. Lucas had this basic plotline in mind since 1976 (the Republic-to-Empire history was pretty clearly stated in every Star Wars movie). This story is a much older story than that, even... it's not a trendy protest-of-the-week. History has examples of Republics becoming Empires, Rome and Germany being the most obvious ("Triumph of the Will" being a huge visual influence on the OT makes this even more clear). And yes there was some anti-Nixon anti-Vietnam in there originally, but it wasn't the overall point of the movie, just a theme (history repeats itself). Fearing an enemy, leaders will take advantage of a nervous public to wipe away their benign form of government for a draconian one, and people are actually happy to see it go... they don't realize their mistake until it's too late. "We're being attacked, TRUST ME, I will protect you just sign here". THIS IS ONE OF THE OLDEST POLITICAL TRICKS IN THE BOOK. If Lucas hammers home the similarity with current events in the USA (which only takes A FEW LINES of hint-hint for people to get, not a big propaganda essay or Palpatine talking in a Texas accent... in other words the "diatribe" Lucas is accused of presenting) then that's OK with me... it's not like he changed around the entire movie to fit today. He didn't. Life imitated art here far more than the other way around. History (Lucas' main inspiration) is, coincidentally, repeating itself right now. Rather than get mad at Lucas for the similarities of the USA to the Empire, maybe you should get mad at our own government instead.
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May 22, 2005 12:38:56 PM CDT
The sad thing is there's "conservatives" who actually talk like
by forestal
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May 22, 2005 12:47:48 PM CDT
I was thinking along a similar line Wolf At The Door
by trevor goodchild
And for the same reasons as I saw it on terrestrial on Saturday. Although the whole duel is my personal favorite of the Duels, I cannot get away from the fact that Obi Wan's leap up out of the shute is piss poor. No excuse for that these days. It looks like exactly what it is. A man on a winch. After all that came before it. And Maul suddenly decides at that moment to stand still and watch? I have become very skilled at FWDing all the other scenes and then stopping it just as Obi Wan rolls into the chute. "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick'.
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...Which, BTW, I liked even better the second time I saw it.
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Being someone who's yet to see the film I find it odd that people are not talking about quite a few things. Bruce Spence? Wookies? Polis? Grievous's bike? Obi Wan's lizard mount? Is there also a planet with an incredibly thick atmosphere and giant mushrooms?
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I saw it AND I liked it. Thats all, no indepth review here, just very enjoyable. Life goes on. BYEEEEE.
Oh and for those whinging old nannies "WAAHHH it cost me $7, I hated it, Lucas you owe me! WAAHH" Pull yourselves together for heavens sake and grow up, its just one of many dissapointments in life you'll just have to contend with, deal with it. -
The following posters like to watch their girlfriends have sex with black guys. PositronicCock, Powermetal1, moviemack, and Mr_Miracle. That is all.
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hi guys, just going to see rots again, 2nd time tonight, and as i missed the falcon last time around was wondering what part of the film it was? also are there any other cool things that i should watch out for? thanks and in my opinion this film is AWESOME! " YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!!" just sent shivers down my spine! class!
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What is with this all of a sudden because ROTS wasn't a bad/awful movie suddenly George Lucas and his trilogy can be forgiven and everything else deserves to be slated. I'm not a star wars 'hater', I was excited to see this movie, I enjoyed it thoroughly, it was good fun. But people are all of a sudden saying ROTS puts Lord of the Rings to shame.. look back at LOTR talk-backs and I don't think you'll find nearly the same amount of abuse as this film gets. Will ROTS clean-sweep the oscars? No. Will it get an SFX oscar? perhaps. Box-Office means so little, and definately doesn't make a film good. ROTS will be looked back upon and time will probably not be that kind..Its good, but I'm sorry to the Star Wars fans who are still clinging on but if you want to see a decent trilogy see LOTR. I mean this prequel has 2 dire movies and one pretty good one.. Even the matrix has better odds than that! (apologies for mentioning any other film that Star Wars, I'm sure i'll get done for that..)
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Just another contradiction.... In ANH, Tarkin is giving Vader orders. And why is that one guy talking about that "sad devotion to an ancient religion" (paraphrase) when Sidious is his boss and the head Sith guy? There are just more and more contradictions...it's incredible that Lucas didn't care about any of this and just did his dumb story the way he wanted to anyway.
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May 22, 2005 1:40:57 PM CDT
There aren't any contradtictions, Rupee88, only viewer who refus
by i dunno
No one knows that Palptine is a Sith. Probably, no one even knows what a Sith is, besides Obi Wan, Yoda and a bunch of dead Jedi. So Tarkin gave Vader orders while Vader was in Tarkin's pad, what's the problem? You people are trying so hard to find contradictions and you're not doing very well.
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May 22, 2005 1:43:19 PM CDT
Acknowledging the "Dark" side is dealing in absolutes. Acknowled
by solame
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ya know, if you throw Crispy Critters Anakin into the water he would kinda look like Jason in the first Friday the 13th movie......
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About the whole Obi Wan not running thing. Here is a simple explanation, He didnt expect the force fields to close that quickly. He was taken by surprise. Has he been able to anitcipate it he could have done it but he gets surprised and then gets seperated.
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Can somone answer this question: Why do some Jedi dissolve when they die and others do not? Was this answered in the movie and I missed it?
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What are the details concerning Yoda communing with Qui-Gon Jinn? He even says, "You're apprenctice I gratefully become." I'm guessing the novelization clears this up but the movie doesn't.
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May 22, 2005 2:05:06 PM CDT
R.C.'s opinion: R.O.T.S.= Rots! That movie could'nt suck more.
by r.c. the "wise"
Plus, there was more more screen time for Vader in the bombardment of tie-in adds, than in the film. The Digital experience was superb but that just meant your eyes and focus was drawn to witness the mindnumbingness plot of this film.
All this hype, speculation, and yearning of seeing Vader in his prime and how does Lucas reward his SW fans/fanatics/and freaks, with an over the top "Nooooooooooooooo!"
Shit! Even with the 2hr. 15min length, Lucas cut out some gem scenes! Utter bullshit.
What so sad it the justification of the film is only due to the fact that the previous two prequels are arguably unwatchable.
Lame. I may see it again when it's on DVD -
I was never a huge Star Wars fan but this might be the movie to do it for me for the simple reason that the movie wasn't childish at all... No comic relief characters, no stupid kids running around, Jar Jar was kept to an absolute minimum (I dont think he uttered a single corny line), even C3-PO and R2-D2 really didnt say or do much... The entire movie was serious and tragic and I loved it... In my opinion, it was the best SW movie ever and I really dont know what Lucas could've done to make it any better... The only scene I didnt like was the death of Windu (which was a little cheesy and I just knew Boba Fett was gonna be the one to kill Windu after he killed his father but whatever)... All in all, a near perfect movie and a great way to end the series... (And this SHOULD be THE END...)
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Jesus, it's like being back at school reading half these fucking comments - can't we just comment on whether or not we like the film?
For the record, I hated 1 and half liked 2 and thought that ROTS was a damn fine film, and for the record I also loved the LOTR films and the first Matrix film and do not have any problems with this.
Isn't this Talkback here to comment on the worth of films and intelligent discussion rather than degenerating into childish slaggings? -
***** (1) QUESTION: The mask of Palpatine ANSWER: "'And so the mask becomes the man,' he sighed with hint of philosophical melancholy. 'I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purposes, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve.'" And during the duel, "His skin flowed like oil, asthough the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressue of his electric hatred." (pages 334 and 336) ***** (2) QUESTIONS: Did Mace defeat Palpatine? ANSWER: It is pretty clear from the novel (pages 331-334) that once Anakin arrived, Mace figured the duel was won. When Anakin arrives "Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here." Then Mace comments to Palpatine when Palpatine is cornered, "'You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear.'" Palpatine responds, "'Fool! Do you think the fear you feel is mine?'" Palpatine of course was referring to Anakin's fear and Anakin's impending shatterpoint. On page 333 Mace finally understands only too late what Palpatine was referring to. Anakin approaches and Mace shouts out for help and then suddenly Mace feels that Palpatine has no fear over Anakin, "Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin..." ***** (3) QUESTION: Why not train the twins right away? ANSWER: Yoda says, "'Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not. When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn'" (page 412). This Yoda comment is a direct result of his meditating with Qui-Gon (page 409). ***** Hope this helps.
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May 22, 2005 2:31:36 PM CDT
WHERE'S ME "DOMINION: A PREQUEL TO THE EXORCIST" TALKBACK?!?!
by chickychow
Saw it over the wknd. Fuckin piece of shit.
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I wonder what diatribes you presented your parents with on Christmas morning when your deepest materialistic desires weren't wrapped in the right color paper. I wonder how many hours of suffering your wives or girlfriends have to suffer through when they haven't sucked your cock in "just the right way." I wonder why God lets you continue living when every waking moment is obviously painful torture for you. Christ almighty.
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I read the novelization for Revenge of the Sith, and I think it made the movie that much better for me, because there was so much stuff they couldn't cram into the movie. The movie made a lot more sense after reading the book. Yoda said after the twin's birth that they must make Padme appear to be still pregnant so that Anakin wouldn't know the kids were alive (because you would think Anakin would find them a lot sooner if he did know), and it also gave a good explanation on why the twins were sent off seperately, a lot more about the Senate, and also why C3PO was wiped (he just has a big mouth). The book just made a lot more sense, but because of it, the movie was great for me to watch.
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Whereas George Lucas was never one for writing good dialogue/storylines, this film rather showed him at his worst. I feel like I'm committing blasphemy in saying this, but it was pretty bad. The duel scenes were, as always, fantastic, but it could be said that if Lucas had spent a little less time with those and actually sat down to write a good script....I wouldn't have said this movie was mediocre. On a more upbeat side note: Ewan/Obi-Wan was great! Best part in the entire thing. His 'You were my brother' thing made me cry. My overall reaction to this thing, however, was that I knew that I wanted to get home so I could pop in 'A New Hope.' Give me Luke, Leia, Han and Co. anyday.
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How does Vader know Luke is his child? I know everything can be easily answered by "The force tells him!" Okay, that very second when he finds out that Luke is his son, he doesn't even seem a bit annoyed that he was deceived by the emperor for 20 years. The emperor told him that he killed Padame. So does Vader just think "Oh well, I guess someone came by and pulled the kids out of her dead body. That must be it. No one would ever lie to me!"???
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Wouldn't watching eps IV-VI first do the same thing? I feel the entire saga plays much better this way as well. I'd compare it to watching Fire Walk with Me before Twin Peaks. You can't do it or else it ruins everything. In fact it's essential to know the imagry of the series before you see the film. The same is true of eps IV-VI. It's essential to have seen them before you watch I-III. The impact of these films (mostly ep III) is far far greater this way.
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...One shot...that I really liked in this film...was the look in haydens eyes as the mask of vader slowly covers him...the look of fear & regret.... I was actually taken aback by that one moment in the film...as I was by the peformance he gave when he was screaming I hate you at obi wan.
Moment that was so unintentionally funny was the rebealing of the emperor...it actually got laugh out loud reactions when anakins at his knees and says camply "The force is strrrroooong in you!!".BAD.
However...I thought some aspects were done very well. Grevious was totally redundant and bogs the film down.
Good as the OT? Still no....a good summer movie? yep....I think time will tell on this one. -
Caught by surprise is a little lame. He's a Jedi. If you need to get somewhere as a matter of life and death you get there as quickly as possible. Your beloved Master is struggling and in mortal danger you don't have a casual trot to be at his side.
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It's time for me to weigh in with my overall opinion of the movie. I didn't dislike it firstof all, this is a movie I could view again and look past the flaws. For starters, having seen grievous in the Clone Wars cartoons, I feel that he was woefully underused, he had the makings of one bad-ass villain and they wasted that chance. I feel that Yoda's trip to Kashykk was also QUITE pointless (just another way for George to make the prequel universe even MORE inbred by bringing in Chewbacca) Also, when Order 66 was carried out it was pretty disappointing, any Jedi worth his salt would have been able ot put up a MUCH better fight (hell, the kid that got gunned down in front of Bail Organna put up more of a fight then most of the other Jedi.) Also the arresting Jedi. . .same story there. Finally, I think the whole "nooooo" scene with Darth Vader could have been dealt with in a much better manner. So, I would say this movie is superior to the other 2 prequels, but not quite up to snuff with the OT. At any rate, I'll probably see it again (The lava dual was one of THE best scenes) I dunno, I just wish they could have done the whole prequel trilogy to where it picks up with Anakin as a teen, goes through the clone wars and builds towards Anakin's turn in and in the final movie, have the lava dual closer to the beginning so we can actually see Darth Vader (in full regalia) mercilessly cutting down Jedi.
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Did that scene where Darth Vander broke off his chains and staggered forward not remind anyone else of Frankenstein's monster? 'Cause I totally think that's what Lucas was going for. Also, I'm convinced greatly incredibly sort of that Darth Vader was partly inspired by Hamlet's ghost in the Olivier version.
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4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Crazy? Maybe! Woo-hoo!
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That would defeat the entire purpose of the saga.
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I'm not sure where Star Wars fans got this "badass" fixation. Nowhere in the OT do I recall any characters being badass killing machines. Perhaps excepting Vader, but that's the point of doing these prequils, to give us another way of seeing him...a man handicapped by these injuries and his emotions, half the man the Emporer would prefer. Thats why the Emporer needs to court Luke.
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4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4....forget the rest ever existed.
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The biggest Futurama-Star Wars connection I can find in Sith is in Vader's "NNNNOOOOOO!!!!," which clearly shows that Anakin went to the Calculon school of acting, or at least that he is an avid viewer of All My Circuits. As for the robots programmed for useless and stupid stuff, maybe the culture in Star Wars just places a great deal of value in the notion of physical comedy. It may be a vital part of Star Wars culture for there to be incidents where people slip on banana peels and do Moe Howard face slaps...it may even be a central (but never referenced) tenent of the Jedi religion. Perhaps those robots were programmed to be goofy because being goofy is essential to Republic/Empire culture.
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The Jedi Purge everyone already knew about before ROTS happens AFTER it. That Jedi Purge we were expecting is Vader (in the suit) killing off the remaining Jedi scattered around the galaxy.
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In Episode -1, we find out that Palpatine had a puppy that died when he was a young boy, thus causing him to turn to the dark side of the force. His love for that lil' pup led to the rise of the Empire.
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This site has pretty much lost all it's original SW fans and Harry like you said ROTS is a masterpiece. But most on this talk back fail to see it because they never did feel the essense SW -- it's myth, it's philosophy etc.
Anyway in this movie Lucas shows again that he is a masterful story teller and he can awaken emotions and feelings in you like few can.
Spoiler Ahead:
Anyways I -
I guess George Lucas is like Michael Jackson and just cannot seem to resist hurting his children by constantly touching them up. Sorry about that. Surely he'll now have to modify ROTJ to change PL's line about her memory of her 'real mother' now that technology is advanced enough to allow him to render his true vision. Clearly he always meant Leia to say something about her mother dying giving birth but that wasn't possible in the primitive 80's.
Anakin's turning. Waytoorushedheturnedfasterthanapintofmilklleftonthesurfaceofthesun. Still, I guess that it's not central to the story or anything...
General Grievous. Big fat waste of time. Did nothing to advance the story and took away screen time that could have been given to more important things LIKE ALL THE JEDI BEING WIPED OUT!!! A fuckin' montage? Nice music for that scene though...
I REALLY HATED how quickly people moved between worlds. It took me more time to walk home from the cinema than it took for The Emperor to go recover Darth's body. Bet he could shred Han's record for the Kessel Spice Run if he wanted to.
In the 'climatic battle', what button did they accidently hit with their 'sabres that caused the foundry to crumble into the lava. It's a strange design feature for any building...
Bah! -
Besides that you people do nothing but nitpick, and I know most of you complainers, went into the movie looking for things to complain about! The only wooden acting done, was done by Porman. Other than that, the acting was average and above average in Ian McDirmids case.
Other than that, the other biggest complaint is Anakins turn! It didn't happen right after he helped kill Mace, it was snowballing since episode 2, and when he did help kill Mace that's when the shit hit the fan. Now put yourself in that position, the manipulation by Palpatine was spot on. And now he really didn't have any choice. He was either going to kill, or be killed, and never be able to save his wife.
Think about those kids who shoot up schools. They just all of the sudden decide to do it. They didn't just wake up one day and say "Hey I am going to go shoot up a school!" it had been snowballing into that. And to most, there parents, there peers, they seem fine, good kids. Yet most people can't see through the kids seemingly alright exterior to see that there really troubled, same with Anakin, he's been troubled for awhile, and no one by Palpatine saw this.
It's not a quick 180 to the darkside, and you have to be a fool to think that. -
Dr Spock and Captain Kirk? Lucas saving them for another 'special edition' is he?
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...turned off the shields. Of course, since the metal building needed shields to keep from overheating and melting it's amazing that Obi and Ani could frolic carefree in that hellish atmosphere without melting themselves. Eh. I'm going to go play in the lava now.
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I am actually one of the few people that DID NOT go into the theater with high hopes, but am very satisfied. I am no longer embarassed to enjoy a Star Wars prequel. I don't care if it makes 500 million or 145 million at the box office. I enjoyed it and look forward to owning it (the Yoda/Palpatine fight will be watched & re-watched a lot in my home). So far, at 2 different Arizona screenings, NO ONE laughed, heckled or made fun of the movie. Those of you that post about audiences "making fun" of the film are full of shit, plain and simple. Either that or the small towns you live in are full of inbred white trash assholes. In fact, as much of a letdown as the last 2 Matrix films were, no one mocked those either (I saw both at the theater opening day). Even Van Helsing, Tomb Raider, The Mummy and The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen...I saw all of these in the theater and heard no mocking or laughing. I am on the lookout for these jesters, but have yet to see or hear them. Are they real? Are Star Wars haters convincing themselves that ROTS sucked? You sure as fuck won't convince me. I see most summer movies, and this one was tits up the best I've seen in a while, Star Wars or not. Sorry I don't hate it. I guess I wasn't looking for a life-changing experience, just some kick ass lightsaber duels and improved dialogue. Was it perfect. No, but it was good enough for me. No movie I've ever seen is perfect (and most are downright horrible). As a huge fan of the original, I sure a looking forward to the Longest Yard remake next week! NOT!
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it wasn't a bad movie. But it wasn't a great film, either and I'd have to stretch to say it was good. The special effects were stellar, but the poor acting kept taking me out of the story and made me wonder how much better it could have been if the script and direction had been up to snuff. I even thought Sam Jackson wasn't very good in this and that's hard to comprehend. He was even decent in XXX but it felt like he was reading off cue cards in ROTS.
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Yes, it was terrible. But no worse than Mark Hamill's comedy routine in "Empire" when he punctuated the exact same line with his facial gymnastics and overacting. How easily we forget.
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The original version was far better in every respect. The new version is not needed and either tears down Vader's character or is just plain ridiculous depending on how you look at it. Of course Vader would have put two and two together by Empire. A Skywalker blew up the Death Star. He's a rebel hero now and well-known throughout the Galaxy, even in the Empire who is chasing him down. He not only shares his last name but he is the right age to be his son, and "The Force is strong with this one" as Vader says HIMSELF in Episode IV. OF COURSE Vader puts two and two together based on this. That's why he's "obsessed with finding young Skywalker" as the opening crawl of Empire tells us, and why he says things like "And I'm sure Skywalker is with them" when single-mindedly pursuing him. He knows part of his family survived, and he is obsessed with retrieving him somehow - at least just meeting him. Having Vader, in the new version, NOT know Luke is his son and having to be told by the Emperor makes him plainly stupid, first of all, and also tears down the whole character arc of him having his humanity touched by the knowledge that he has a son, which starts his character change. If you take it like "he knows, he is just "playing" the Emperor", then that just doesn't make any sense, because the Emperor would KNOW that Vader has put this together by now - it's completely obvious. That makes the Emperor stupid, feeling like he has to tell Vader something so obvious. It's just ridiculous, any way you slice it. It hurts the film badly. Not to mention the fact that the scene is just bad as a scene, too, where the original version was very good. And also not to mention that the original version was just fine how it was - it still fits with the story! We can just read between the lines the obvious - that by now, Vader knows Luke is his Son. So why change it? Just because you can, George Luas?
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GL: "Um, okay, Ewan ... in this scene, you're really upset with Anakin ... so you say, 'Anakin, I'm really upset with you.' And say it like you're really upset." --- EM: "What's my motivation?" --- GL: "Well, he really upset you!" --- EM: "Ah." --- GL: "Actually, I find things like motivation to be kind of a moot point anyways ... I mean, the audience already knows that you get upset with him. If I wasted time giving you a reason, I'd have to cut that sweet scene with Mc-Blamo Ass-kickicus (my kid made up the name, but I think it reveals something about his character ... he blows shit up and kicks ass!). Anyways, in this scene, the audience will be more focused on this bitch-ass volcano set anyways ... damn, I wish I'd thought of that! So anyways, back to you being upset. That's GOLD! After that, do a few flips! But, be UPSET when you're doing them ... remember, this scene is IMPORTANT! (In fact, maybe I should put a little subtitle at the bottom of the screen ... a caption that says 'IMPORTANT!' in all caps ...)"
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"McDiarmid was the bomb in Phantom[](and AOTC and ROTS)!" *slap! "what's up now..." While I personally didn't think the "NOO" was inappropriate, if he wanted to fix it, I'm not sure if he needs to louden it, or what, maybe try to heighten the emotional exhastion... I feel ROTS is definitely analagous to Othello: A war hero who is totally in love with his wife gets confused by this guy who is supposedly his friend, yet is pure evil, then he does evil deeds, kills his wife. And I guess you can justify the "only a sith deals in absolute" as an absolute in and of itself in the sense that, the Jedi were blinded by their own narrow-minded views, couldn't see the big picture, and succumbed to it.
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Palp, Obi Wan, and the creepy looking Tarkin at the end.
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I watched the cool parts of Ep III again and they are pretty cool, but the movie is horribly flawed in so many ways. I've been reading more of these AICN talkbacks, which are entertaining for some reason and people just nitpick every part of the film, but their points are totally valid and I had some of the same thoughts too. I love what was said above about quickly they can jump from one planet to the other and how the killing of the Jedis was just a quick montage..both kinda dumb. And the way that pressing one button caused the whole structure to fall into the lava...wouldn't there be some major backup systems in place???
I thought fanboys would be gushing about this film, but apparently people are fairly objective for the most part and most people are saying it was lame with wooden acting and crappy story with lots of plot holes, etc, and how many contradictions there are with the original films. I guess the fact that people are so passionate about it (and that I'm reading all this stuff) means something, but it may just mean that the first film had a big impact, just like the Matrix sequels generated buzz just because the first one was so good and the sequels sucked so badly.
I was thinking about the first SW film and it has some major flaws too and a lot of it is goofy, but I'm not sure if we liked it so much because we were kids or because it was so revolutionary at the time. Adults loved it too, so probably the latter. I always thought the biggest flaw of the first film was how they only send three tie fighters after the rebels at the end when they are trying to blow up the Death Star. They should have sent out a swarm of about 100+ fighters. I guess pre-ILM could barely animate two or three ships in any shot back then though, so I can see how Lucas was somewhat stuck there, but he could have done it better.
Also, I always thought it was lame how Han and Chewbaccas chased those Stormtroopers at one point and then turned around and the Stormtroopers were chasing them...it didn't make sense either way...but that was a minor dumb scene. At least the actors in the first films had charisma for the most part and could act. Lucas somehow brings out the worst in the actors in these prequels. Hayden Christiansen is wooden and even Natalie Portman is terrible, and she is at least somewhat talented. I guess maybe the actors try to do a good job and Lucas makes them tone it down until there is nothing down and then he uses that take.
Oh well, I still have to say this Ep III is a "good" film compared to most of what I might have to sit through at the theater. "Good" is a relative term and considering it is overall an entertaining film with some very cool sequences, I've got to give it a B+ or maybe an 7.5 out of 10. Compared to ANH, I'd give it a 4, but compared to something like "White Chicks" or "House of Wax", I'd have to give it a 9. So Lucas, for his bad writing and inconsistencies, etc, still managed to produce a cool movie...thank the guys at ILM for most of this though. -
May 22, 2005 5:27:24 PM CDT
"I know the anger I encouraged caused you to kill your wife..."
by stlfilmwire
"But we're still friends, right?"
Also, a girl just gives birth to twins, cares enough to name them, but yet still loses her will to live? No will to live? You just gave freaking birth to twins! -
I don't really have a big problem with this, even though I see why other people detest it so. It didn't come off perfectly, but it was on the lame level as the "Toad" line from "X-Men" or the romantic scenes from AOTC. I think people just don't see Vader loose his cool like that, but that's what Lucas turned him into...a sniveling little bitch who only does bad things because there is ultimately "good in him". He's a ruthless child killer, yet he did it all for love...ok, whatever...
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I meant to say that it was lame, but not as bad as the Toad line or the scenes of Anakin and Padme in that meadow.
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Boy, I'm coming across as a retard here or at least a very lazy proofreader. Anyway, I guess Lucas masterminded this film and it is entertaining, so I have to give him props. He does so many things very wrong, but he gets enough right (like the starting space battle) that it still ends up being a fun, albeit frustrating, ride.
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IMAGINE THIS SCENARIO--- GL: "Oh man, animating this Fighto-StrongDar character is tough work, and I still haven't figured out how Padme dies!" --- [in comes a whistling intern] --- GL: "You, intern! Are you busy?" --- In: "Nope; I was supposed to be touching up the script, but pssshhhh, who gives a flying fuck? We all know what happens, right?" --- GL: "Ha ha, yeah, well, actually ... I need an ending for this. Padme needs to die." --- In: "Um, wait, doesn't Leia say she remembers her mother." -- GL: "Blah blah blah. Look, intern, let's just pretend I'm the Emperor here and you're anonymous clone soldier number 1238498, okay? I say, Padme dies. People dying is dramatic. It's called 'good storytelling.' Now, figure out how she dies! And make sure we can fit it into the last five minutes of the film. This extended fight between Good-heroticus and Bad-guy-dio is going to need another ten minutes to really tell the story I have in mind." --- In: [thinking to himself] "Man oh man, I'm losing the will to live working here for this guy ... [eyes light up] waaaaaaait a minute!"
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His clothes seem to catch on fire near the lava, but Obi-Wan was standing right above the lava on that little piece of debris and his clothes didn't catch on fire, nor did his skin melt. Oh well, I guess "The Force" protected him. The answer to any flaw in the movies is "because of the mysterious Force made it that way".
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OK, you could try and B.S. me and tell me it was scenes with Jar Jar (which I also dislike), but the absolutely worst moments are: 1) The pod race announcer moments 2) The Max Rebo Band sequence 3) Anakin and Padme on the space cows 4) The What Have I Done/Join the Emperor on a dime moment 5) Jar Jar's combat silliness during the battle 6) the Jabba scene in A New Hope 7) They find out R2D2s # after he saved the ship in Menace 8)Yoda mentioning Qui Gonn in ROTS but there is no Qui Gonn appearance 9) Anakin made C3PO 10) Yoda thanks Chewbacca and says he will miss them.
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between leia remembering her REAL mother (and I stress REAL, not adoptive, Luke even repeats it) and padme dying in childbirth. Leia is NOT talking about her adoptive mother, she's talking about Padme. She remembers her through the force. I would assume a great bond is made between an infant strong with the force and its mother at such an intense moment as that. In rotj, leia describes padme through emotions and images (beautiful but sad), all present in the brief moment they share at the end of rots. I'm sure that's a completely conscious choice by Lucas, and it's not a plot hole. And as for padme "losing the will to live", I don't have a problem with that either. The one person she loves more than anything else has just tried to kill her, and she has found out he has toppled the republic, killed all the jedi - even kids, and will now rule the galaxy, and he did it because of her. That's a lot to live with for a young senator.
BUT PLEASE: can somebody who knows, who have read the novelization or something, tell me how old OB1 is supposed to be? -
I'm amazed at how many people hate the new Star Wars flick...what do they want?
The prequels aren't any cornier or ridiculous than the OT (I always thought Leia being able to pick off highly trained mercenaries like ducks was pretty laughable) and the latest effects are amazing.
I agree that the first three are more fun and I think that's because of Harrison Ford. But the new series revolves around the Jedi who aren't exactly the most fun loving bunch. They needed to be more serious and so we were stuck with typical knightly, melodramatic dialogue. No problem.
George wasn't trying to make another "American Beauty"...just a tribute to the old serials and he succeeded beyond my greatest expectations. -
May 22, 2005 5:53:22 PM CDT
Hey Directors, having a problem with plot holes? The FORCE! (tm
by new in ny
CAMERON: Oh man ... I wrote in Terminator that only organic materials can travel through time, but the T-1000 doesn't have any organic material ... --- LUCAS: Never fear, Cameron! Just "use The FORCE! (tm)" --- CAMERON: Huh? --- LUCAS: It's easy! Can't fix a plot hole (that you willfully created)? It's The FORCE! (tm) And while we're at it, Emmerich, The FORCE! (tm) can also fix your little computer-compatibility problem. How can an Earth-made laptop communicate with an alien spaceship? You guessed it, The FORCE! (tm) Awesome!
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...it makes them seem more intellectual than those who love/like it. Sad, really.
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Obi Wan is a bad ass fighter who was able to remove the legs and arm of the guy who killed Dooku. Obi also killed Darth Maul and General Grievous. So if Dooku as an old man can whip some butt, and The Emperor as an older man can whip some butt, why doesn't Obi Wan stick around in ANH longer? Why instead go, "Welp, the kid that Skywalker kid is watching... I better let Darth kill me and give him a little motivation." He's sat around and waited for 18 years or so in hiding, and his best solution was to let Darth kill him in front of his own son? OK. Cool. Whatever.
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He let himself get killed, so his power could go into Luke. I thought everyone knew that.
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Whoops. Wrong franchise. Wait, there wasn't a franchise, only one kick-ass movie. Yeah. One. Like Matrix. Just one.
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I watched ROTS 3 times. I'm just stunned that a giant production company could allow such stupid things to happen and honestly think us fanboys would say, "Boy that two-headed announcer is just fantastic."
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OK, it might be in some obscure Star Wars comic book or role playing game somewhere, but there is never a sign that Luke receives any of his power. That is especially in question during the scene where Obi's spirit tries to convince Yoda to train him.
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Leia was indeed asked about her "real" mother, but why does this mean by default that Leia even knew? She had no clue that she was Leia Skywalker, daughter of a desert slave, and not in fact "Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan." After all; what did Luke think for 65% of the trilogy? That his dad was killed by Darth vader. His closest friend lied. His alleged arch rival told him the truth. Yeah; funny how "truth" works sometimes. So, you may ask; why was Queen Organa described as "sad"...? Well, for starters: she's the leader of a planet with "no weapons" in the middle of an evil empire. She's unable to have kids of her own. Her only daughter is the offspring of an evil Sith lord. That's pretty sad.
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I'm concerned in general about this tendency to reduce other people's arguments into "hatred." It's not just here - disagree with the President? Oh, that's because you "hate" him. I know this is just a TalkBack for fun, but this whole "hate" argument is seeping into our public discourse ... Look, go rent "Zardoz" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070948/ ... ooooh, you'll be soooo sad you did!) and then come back and tell me how you liked it. I guess if I were John Boorman (the director), I could shoot back at you, "Oh, you're just a hater. HATER HATER HATER." That's all fine and good, if a bit childish, but we have serious news journalists asking politicians (usually Democrats, if not ONLY Democrats) if they "hate" Bush or Republicans or whatever ... I know at least Dean made splashed when he actually said at a rally that he "hated" Republicans, and it's a dumb thing to say! A dumb thing to accuse someone of! A dumb thing to talk about! That's my two cents ... I don't like the films. I have reasons. I won't see them again. It ain't going to change my life in some profound way. I'm not wasting any time "hating" them ... whatever da fuck that even means!
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the OT is full of them too, maybe most in the best of them all, ESB. It doesn't matter. But still, I've thought a bit about the new dialog in the vader/emperor scene in ESB, and although I much prefer the old version, I believe Lucas had a reason for changing it. My thoughts are: maybe vader didn't realize Luke was his son, even though he heard the name skywalker. I think his conversion to the dark side fucked him up big time in the head. as he said in rotj on hearing his old name: "that name no longer has any meaning to me." It could be that he simply doesn't react to his son's name until palpatine hits him over the head with the facts. it's open for debate, but i think that's a kinda cool possibility, that he's so corrupted by the dark side he actually doesn't see things that are right in front of him. and vader probably wouldn't stop to reconsider that hey palpatine said that I killed padme, then how can my son be alive, so you lied to me palpatine, etc... Besides, Anakin/vader was never the big thinker or strategist anyway. His one big plan of wiping out the rebellion ended with the first death star being blown up.
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If as a 9 year old he can build his own robots, pods, and figure out how to fly spaceships in a matter of seconds, why is it that he lives as long as he does as Darth Vader and never modifies his costume to do anything kick ass... like shoot lazer or produce energy shields or anything. You think his freetime would be all about upgrading... and trying to sip soup through a straw so he can get nourishment.
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If Leia was referring to her adopted mother (assuming she thinks that's her real mother) then why does she only remember bits and pieces??? Did her foster mother die when Leia was young as well? If so, that's retarded. Seems Leia has no luck with mothers huh? Alone, these nitpicks are miniscule, but when you tally them all up, you get a series full of logic and plot holes that keep bringing up questions.
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without being snobbish and irritated by every tiny little detail that doesn't fit into what I would have preferred it to be. I really am. I greatly enjoy all six movies. That feels really good.
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Us "Haters" as you all keep calling us, (Haters being people who aren't blind to see the weaknesses in ROTS of course) shouldn't be silenced by the people who say LOOK HOW MUCH MONEY IT'S MADE!!! Big box office doesn't mean a great film. quite the opposite ----------> examples
INDEPENDENCE DAY
THE GRINCH
TWISTER
ARMAGEDDON
THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW
TITANIC!
For goodness sake Phantom Menace is in the top ten of all time! -
I think Lucas was originally to have it where Padme remained queen... and then she eventually marries Organa. And sometime in between III and IV The Empire probably killed her. But once it became time to do the prequels Lucas realized how it wouldn't work out and so he came up with what we know now.
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I enjoyed all of them. Is it REALLY impossible to critique the storyline and still be a fan? When I make comments about stuff I don't understand, it is only so that other people can read my questions and give me their best explanations... which I enjoy reading.
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ROBIN HOOD PRINCE OF THEIVES... that was a huge hit and possibly the worst film I've ever seen.
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Isn't it funny how Robin Hood has "Poison Syndrome"... Poison Syndrome... also known as Firehouse Syndrome, Billy Ray Cyrus Disease, or the NKOTB Plague is where a billion people consume the living shit out of something, and then four years later nobody will own up to the fact they were decepted by the hunk of turd in question. Hehe. These bands/people would make $400 billion dollars... but you can't usually find one person to admit to spend a dollar on it. Hehe. Yeah, I saw Prince of Thieves opening weekend. Isn't it amazing that it still continued to draw an audience... even after the initial weekend? Hehe.
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I'll be the first to admit it. I've seen almost everyone of these movies in that list there. But it doesn't make them good. I saw all the Star Wars movies and Phantom Menace sucks and I saw it three times! I'm going to see Sith again even though I was disappointed by it. I'll probably see it again after that. Doesn't make it a good film just because it makes a ton of money. I love Star Wars (OT) so much that my disappointment with the new ones still can't keep me away.... but Anakin turns into a punk... not Darth Vader... it just gets me so mad. Robin Hood I saw once and it was so bad I wanted to stab my own eyes out.
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Well, he is.
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What my digital cable says about AOTC...
"Hayden Christensen, Natalie Portman, (2002), **, Obi-Wan Kenobi (Ewan McGregor) trains Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen) to be a Jedi. Thrilling special effects make up for the stilted dialogue and wooden acting. (Sci-Fi, 143 Mins.).
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May 22, 2005 7:03:26 PM CDT
Where's Tarkin?? It's a new game just like Where's Waldo??
by l.h.puttgrass
I caught the George Lucas "Hitchcock" cameo. He's standing on the left side of the screen as Anakin is entering the opera. I knew about an actor playing Tarkin in EP3, but I hadn't thought about it till just now. I missed him.
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I just got back from seeing the film and I felt the transformation Arnikin took to become Darth Vader is fine but a speech or two from Yoda or OBI WAN was missing. Case in point: Star Trek NG. Wesley Crusher is about to get away with a terrible crime at Starfleet Academy and Picard sits him down and tells him how he first came on his ship and in his words, "sat in my chair and acted like he belonged on my ship." In that exchange, Picard shamed him into admitting his involvement in getting another cadet killed. In Star Wars it is all about regret. The biggest regret is that Anikin never had a true father. Palpitine set it up so his surrogaate father, Qui Gon, was killed by his first apprentice, Darth Maul and taken in by OBI WAN. He has propetic dreams in which he can not save the two women in his life, his mother and his wife, Padme and the results damn him. Finally, his decision to aid Darth Sidious leads to the birth of Darth Vader and the destruction of the Jedi Knights. Remember, Anikin became Darth Vader BEFORE he got all ammored up and when OBI WAN has to take him down, he has made up his mind that the good man he was had been consumed by the dark personna he assumed. I agree that the acting could have been better. Did he have to look mean to present evil? No. I believe if someone had remembered the child who built his own pod to win a race so long ago and given him better advice than "control your feelings" and "be patient" then it would have made his transformation stick. As it is, this movie only makes the opportunity a missed one.
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that women can't look after themselves? Honestly, Padme went from being a kickass fighting queen in TPM to a housewife sitting around waiting to die in ROTS.
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Can somone answer this question: Why do some Jedi dissolve when they die and others do not? Was this answered in the movie and I missed it? Also, too bad there wasn't a wookie Jedi. Now he would kick ass. Finally, I find it odd that two jedi's can take down a whole ship filled with enemies and battle droids of all kinds. But it takes little to elimiante an entire temple filled with Jedi's. They just aren't making Jedis the way they use too. I also agree having twins should be enough to give someone the will to live, especially in a hostile universe. She just gives up? Non heroic ending for a one time heroic character.
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I liked Revenge of the Sith okay, but I find the fanboy explanations of Leia's comments in Return of the Jedi pretty weak. One is "The Force"... uh huh. Then why doesn't Luke remember her? One fanboy actually tried to explain that away by saying "because Leia's a girl, and girls are more intuitive!" Bunk. How can one not get how ridiculous that sounds? Lucas screwed up, and instead of being careful with his story just lazily does something in the hopes that fanboys on the internet will carry his water for him. The other "explanation" is the "she is remembering her adoptive Mother rather than the real Mother she thinks she is talking about." Uh huh... That would really ruin that scene in Jedi if so. That scene is supposed to be all about family, and to have Leia go off an a "wrong" description of Luke and Leia's Mother, and make her actually be, unknowingly, talking about her adoptive Mother by mistake is just a laughable idea which would render the scene pointless. Remember, this is a "family" scene, where Luke tells Leia that Vader is his/her Father and that he is her Brother. It's a sweet, personal retelling of their Mother, and it would really make that scene much less effective if the silly fanboy "explanation" was the case, as if Leia was actually not talking about Padme at all, and just going onto some "wrong" flight of fancy. Luke is supposed to be hearing a description of his Mother there, not some fake idea that Leia has mixed up in her mind. It is the only mention of their Mother/Anakin's Wife/Padme in the whole of the Original Trilogy - you guys are actually trying to say the Original Trilogy would include a scene that is basically just a flight of fancy when it's supposed to be talking about Luke and Leia's Mom? The whole idea is just ridiculous. It was quite obviously supposed to be talking about her real mother. With the "new" Trilogy Lucas simply dropped the ball on making that make sense., along with many other things. It's just a big plot hole now, and instead of tailoring his story to what we already know from the Original Trilogy(which is very easy), Lucas leaves a gaping inconsistency up to internet fanboys to try and clumsily explain away. Admit it, it's simply bad storytelling, plain and simple - something Lucas has done quite a lot of in the Prequel Trilogy.
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Lucas didn't screw up, he didn't forget that scene. He knows his own movies better than we do. If you really want to scruntinize it, Luke never looked at Padme, Leia did. And then they cut the scene. So Leia and Padme culd have shared a few moments before she died. And Leia didn't remember her. She had "images" and "feelings" that's not memory. If you come away from this awesome movie and this little nitpick is all you got out of it, then well, sorry. These movies are scrutinized more than the Zapruder film.
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It wasn't done very well or made very clear, but that whole "Jedi dissappearing trick" is merely hinted at. That whole thing of QuiGon coming back to teach Yoda and ObiWan "immortality," is, I believe, a way of surrendering themselves into the force, somehow maintaining their physical shape in a spectral way. That's why Obi and Yoda vanish, they don't die, they surrender to the force. I think. But I'm not the biggest SW researcher, so somebody else might have a better idea
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Briana Banks could give you a blowjob and you'd complain she didn't spend enough time licking your ball sack. Yeah, a couple of parts of the movie were silly, but the other 95% of it was really goddamn cool. Relax and try to remember its JUST A MOVIE.
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May 22, 2005 7:51:53 PM CDT
Give it a few weeks for the Star Wars apologists to come down of
by thirteen 13
Granted it was pretty good, and in a scant few parts very good, and in a few places awful. I actually walked out of this one feeling like I actually saw a Star Wars film rather than an episode of Fraggle Rock with light sabers. There was no way I could have sat through yet another 2 hours and 20 minutes of, winnie the pooh's with light sabers, roger rabbits bonking themsleves off of windows in the jedi council room, ewokes, that dumb fucking retarded fuckwit jar jar, fart jokes, dumbass gung gung parades, glowing balls for a reward, those dumbass crew cuts for jedis, dancing bears, acrobatic machines, midichlorians, virgin births, the list goes on. Revenge of the Sith was pretty good. Oh I wish anyone but Lucas would have made these films.
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Entertainment Weekly mentioned that Lucas approached Ron Howard and Steven Spielberg to helm the prequels. They both replied that Lucas needed to do it. While granted, the films would have been better, does anybody think that we would be where we are right now with regards to digital filmmaking if Lucas had not directed these films?
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Thanks for the response, but if I remember right, Qui Gon didn't dissolve he was toasted, like Vader. (Vader's cremation seems to be the conpletion of how is was suppose to die on Mustafar.) It would make sense that if one was required to dissolve into the force so to be able to communicate. That explains Yoda and Obi Wan at the end of Jedi. But what of Anakin and Qui Jon?
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Just look at the weekend boxoffice. Sure he could've put more blood, sweat, and tears, but clearly joe average doesn't want an emotional core brought out by chemistry amongst the characters. He's (or she's) able to forgive GL's crappy dialogue for flashy-washy's and sparkly-warkly's. Logic, introspective narrative ties, non-linear ploting... Bah! A Jedi craves not these things. Give 'em the damn rollercoaster with no real sense of purpose and they'll gladly call it genius.
ROTS was better than the other two PT films. But saying its better is kinda stating the obvious, isn't it? There is no way that GL could fuck this film up? Or could he? It had its moments where greatness peeked through the curtains of blandness. And this is what passes for a tragedy? Naw, that requires that I feel for the character who turns and betrays everything he's believed him. But when the darkside beckons and our hero suddenly says "Sure man, sounds like a blast. I'll join you're little club of two and waste some kids" with very little egging from the peanut gallery, I'm prone to sit back and roll my eyes.
I appreciated the fact that GL at least tried to provide a sense of pace and direction for this film but it does not mean that I'm ready to buy into this mediocre result. I'll definately watch this more than say TPM and AOTC, but since I've only been able to sit through them once (each respectively the only time I saw them in theatres) that's really not saying much. -
Two ways of looking at it. Practically: the whole "anakin not dissapearing" has always been a strange problem. Even as a kid I noticed it. Why does he not dissapear and yet come back as a ghost anyway in Jedi? The only rational I can come up with is that Lucas wanted a cool cremation scene in Jedi. That said, it can be theorized that it took Qui-Gon's spirit time to regain his identity, same with Anakin (who appears right at the end of Jedi) whereas Yoda and Obi-Wan gave themselves willingly (Obi-Wan's ghost is heard IMMEDIATELY after his "death"--"run luke, run!") So I guess the difference is willingness to surrender to the Force. Obi-Wan submits to Vader's blade. Yoda seems to submit as well, when he curls up in his bed and just vanishes. Of course, I could be blowing smoke out of my fanboy ass.
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May 22, 2005 8:19:33 PM CDT
No one has complained about the chronological problems in the mo
by craiggers
Think about it; people zip from one end of the universe to the other not in days but in a matter of hours. Let me go ahead and say that I fucking loved the movie; it was a breath of fresh air compared to the last two movies and felt like a true Star Wars movie. However, didn't it seem like it took no time at all for people to go from world to world, even if they were outlying worlds in the Rim? I mean, yeah, they have Hyperdrive, but still... example: when Anakin is on Mustafar, and Padme goes out to check on him, it takes no time for her to get there. The bodies of the Seperatist leaders Anakin kills haven't cooled yet before Padme arrives, and she sets out pretty much the moment he kills them. Same thing with the Emperor; he fights Yoda the same time he fights Obi-Wan, yet he is able to get to Mustafar in a reasonable enought time to save Vader. Sure, one can assume that perhaps Vader is that much of a bad ass to be able to survive a couple of days on liquid hot MAG-MA after suffering from third degree burns and having his limbs hacked off.. but still, it's highly unlikely. But I'm being nitpicky. one thing I do agree with is that it did seem to quick when Anakin turns to the dark side. He goes from being tempted and uncertain to killing kids in a matter of minutes. I just don't believe that. The only explanation is that after anakin helped kill Mace, he left himself vulnerable to manipulation by the Emperor (hence the wierd inflection of the Emperor's voice when he speaks to Anakin) or it could be that Anakin was in a state of shock, as anyone who helped commit murder would be, and he was desperate to get out of it. The emperor was the only person that could get him out of the jam. After watching it a second time, his fall is more believable, but the first time around I was like, "Wait a minute, that's all it took to convince him? He's dark just like that?" Okay, I'm done; all in all, great movie!
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May 22, 2005 8:21:52 PM CDT
Anakin didn't disappear because he was already dying and didn't
by i dunno
Both Obi Wana nd Yoda disappeared because their role was completed and voluntarally moved on to the "netherworld" of the Force. Anakin was already about to die and didn't need to make the concious decision to move on. As for "MrTotality's" condecending post, I did feel for the characters. I felt Padme's broken heart, Yoda's broken pride, Obi Wan's broken trust and Anakin's broken soul as he lay in the sand, everything he fought for burning away with his body. I don't know, I thought it worked.
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For those who've and enjoyed this movie, I heartily recommend seeing it in a DLP house. What a difference! Aside from the obvious thing like no messy reel changes, surround popping in & out, scratches or wavering images, this movie LOOKS and SOUNDS fantastic when shown properly.
I've seen it 5 times now...4 in a standard theater and once in DLP (hey, it's a four-hour 'round trip to see it that way...but I'll do it again before it leaves that theater!) and for this old fan who saw the original back in '77 as a teen, wore out the VHS's & lazerdiscs and enjoyed 'em again on the big screen in the late '90s (changes 'n all), this last entry worked just fine. I've enjoyed the prequels...each fil has had a distinct style to it and ROTS is no exception. Yes, I went into the midnight show spoiled to the hilt and packed with expectations and other than being a little disappointed that a couple of scenes I'd heard about were AWOL (no there's a problem we didn't have way back when!!), I left the theatre spent, sad, but very pleased with the way it turned out. -
...was never an issue in the SW films. In TESB an Imperial guy commented that the Falcon could be on the other side of the galaxy if it jumped. They made it from Hoth to Bespin in a short period of time and Luke went from Tatooine to Dagobah to Sullust in time for the meeting. I can't even do that for 7 miles on a Monday. The SW film never bothered with ETAs. There's too much story to bother with that. That's a Star Trek thing.
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I don't think it will get the repeat business that the others had. Most of the unwashed American Idol watching, Mariah Carey listening masses like movies where Owen Wilson stops Jennifer Aniston at the airport and they kiss and live happily ever after to a celine Dion soundtrack, not movies where he kills the girl, loses most of his limbs and is burned alive. I heard too many people whine that the film was "too depressing". I however, will do my part and see it at least 3 more times.
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I will admit, like them or not, the old obi-bear has a point. Each film does have a very distinct style. And speaking of ROTS, I understand the haters. It's not a perfect film (like the holy Empire). But it's the most operatic, and will go down as many fans fave, I predict. And c'mon, Obi-Wan and Anakin on the shore of the river of fire is just one of the best SW scenes ever. "I hate you!" "I loved you," just rocks.
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But newborns can't make out heads or tails. Their eyes can't see poop. Their vision develops over time.
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I know that's saying a lot, but this film just worked for me on pretty much every level, and defintely on more levels than any of the previous films. I've loved all the movies in their own unique way and learned to accept their flaws because I thought the majority of each film was enjoyable. But with ROTS, all I can say is that I think it's the least flawed of all the films, and it topped ESB for me. I loved it and I saw it four times in two days since the midnight showing.
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The turn started back then with his desire for revenge and his lust for enough power to conquer death. Just because it seemed rushed in Ep3 doesn't mean that the foundation wasn't properly laid.
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May 22, 2005 9:09:59 PM CDT
Could some of you idiots PLEASE stop trying to find continuity e
by cherrycola
Listen to me very carefully, Leia says she hardly remembers her mother because she is referring to her adoptive mother on alderaan. Or, if you want to nit-pick further, then you can squash that by saying if leia was one with the force then she would have flashbacks of padme. Either way, it works. So you morons that love "discovering" these errors need to get out more often.
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#1 - The Empire Strikes Back
#2 - A New Hope
#3 - Return of the Jedi
#4 - Revenge of the Sith
Tied for 5th - TPM,AOTC
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Parents that let their kids get on the 'net have no right saying this movie is "too depressing" and "too violent" for kids. Hello?? I grew up watching cartoons where anvils get dumped on a characters head and seeing movies where skeletons run around with swords and look at me know. I'm pretty well balanced. Parents who decide to get all high and mighty are raising their kids to be PUSSIES who will continue to wet the bed at 14. Kids are resilient and strong willed. I don't think this film will fuck with their heads more than the world that awaits them outside the movie theatre. Now THAT'S something to be concerned about.
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May 22, 2005 9:18:06 PM CDT
This the best movie of the year and I will see it at least anoth
by cherrycola
I suggest you all do the same. Titanic, for lack of a better word, SUCKED. Therefore we all should continue to put our money into this film so that it can beat titanic once and for all. :)
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Why don't you trolls get a life? You sit there at your dad's computer and think of something stupid to say about either: Bush, homosexuality, religion, politics, or some other current event in some lame effort to piss someone off so they can argue with you. You then post more garbage. Stupid trolls, I hope you all die alone in your shitty little cubby space at the YMCA.
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May 22, 2005 9:45:51 PM CDT
Want to instantly reduce your credibility when being a smart-ass
by incredibleyoda
... douchebag.
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Like many have said, the movie is all right, but it isn't great. However, I think Lucas could have made it great with just a little tweaking. First of all, Anakin should have cut Dooku's head off without prompting from Palpatine. He should have not wined about his part in killing Windu. The pieces were there. His motivations were to save Padme and jealousy about Obi Wan and Padme. By the way, Lucas could have pulled off the passage of time a lot better. If Anakin was going to the dark side to learn how to save Padme, seems awfully odd that he's off putzing around not learning any dark secrets when Padme's like days away from shooting out those babies. Didn't seem all that concerned. Also, that scene where they put the Vader outfit on him...started off good. When that mask goes on and they have the breathing, that was awesome. Then they ruined it with dialogue. Palpatine should have said, "Rise Lord Vader," like in the commercial, and they should have had the table go up to show the face and just end the scene right there. Anakin believed that Padme had turned against him. He tried to kill her. He shouldn't be concerned about her now. That had the potential to be an awesome scene and they screwed it up with that totally wussy reaction. James Earl Jones' voice shouldn't be saying whiny crap. He should be badass all the time, and they ruined that image of Vader that had been built up with the original trilogy. Plus, Hayden Christensen looked totally small in that costume. So, in my view, the movie was close, but these little things really threw it off for me.
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What the heck was the deal with bringing up Qui-gon right at the end? Loose threads had been tied, but there's another one brought up when the movie is ending. We need another prequel now to clean it up better. Plus, it was pretty lame having Padme die...like she just gave up life because Anakin went to the dark side? Lame.
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So what this entire series seems to be saying is that the inablity of human beings to come to grip with their own mortality and with loss in generall is the root of evil. Hmm, sounds like Harry Potter and Voldemort and, understandable, almost every myth recorded by mankind. It is hubris, of course, pride, the nature of the first sin in genesis. The ability to slay death, of course, is not for mortals but for Gods--Christ if you're Christian.
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Okay. So aside from the fact that Dark Helmet's "Nooooooooooooo.....?" was the stupidest moment ever recorded on film. Besides the general laziness on Lucas' part. Like why not invent a reason to wipe C-3po's memory. Here. I'll pull one out of my ass right now. "The robot knows that Carrie Fisher baby and Mark Hamill baby are alive. Wipe it's memory." Done. Aside from the annoyingly cluttered and neon friendly emoticon world that Lucas has turned this once great Universe into. Beside all the crap dialogue, acting, plot points. And the BOREDOM that this movie instills. Isn't anyone else annoyed by the miniscule time this EVIL EMPIRE actually rules the galaxy before the rebels take it down in ROTJ? I mean, do the math. Even if you count the time when Palpatine is manipulating behind the scenes... so.... after AOTC. It's what? 5 years later until ROTS. 10 years at most. And Luke and Leia get born in this one. And how long until "A New Hope"? Lukes's what? 18-19. Shooting womp rats on Tatooine. And what? 27 in Empire. And 30 at the oldest in Jedi. How long does someone last frozen in Carbonite? So the entire reign of the evil, evilest, evil, evil galactic empire lasted a whole 40 years at the MOST. Ohhhhhh. Sccccccaaaaary. No. It's stupid. I mean, what is this Larry's Empire and chicken wings? Seriously. So the last Sith infestation happened 1000 years ago. And how long did that last? A weekend? Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. These prequels should NEVER have been made. Let Gendy Tartosky have the ship. At least that guy has some freaking respect. His Clone Wars make this pile of dog poop look worse than it already is. This movie gives me a headache.
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I've seen it twice at the Ziegfeld in NYC. Once on Thursday night, with 26 others, and once on Saturday with my family, visting from Boston. The tix I had for Thursday, purchased several weeks back, were $10.50 (gotta love New York!) But the tix I bought earlier this week for Sat. afternoon were $10.75!!! All those extra quarters!!!
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This is my first and probably last post. I just had to take a second to comment on this talkback. I, too, grew up with Star Wars. I, too, didn't much care for the first couple of films. I thought that this one was a vast improvement, and was almost on par with the original trilogy. But I have to say, even if you didn't like the film, to say that George Lucas raped your childhood is pretty ridiculous. You must have had a pretty sad fucking childhood. I think the bottom line is that the man made the movies he wanted to make. He was under no obligation to make them, certainly didn't need the cash, and probably did it just for the pleasure of doing it. We, likewise, were under no obligation to go see them. Yeah, the "NOOO!" was corny, but damn, dudes, if you saw Empire for the first time right now in this jaded age of film, you would think that a lot of that dialogue was silly as well. We worship the original films because we were kids. And this film came the closest to recapturing that feeling of wonder that the original films breathed into us. Give the man a break. The action was solid, the effect were awesome, the story complex and mature. So the dialogue sucked. Newsbrief: The dialogue always sucked. Why don't you build a filmmaking empire out of nothing? Then you might have a leg to stand on when you bitch. remember, there is a very large segment of our culture that feels that ALL Star Wars movies are queer. Not everyone is a raving fanboy. Be thankful that you can recognize greatness when you see it, be thankful that Lucas gave you all that he has, whether it's your favorite or not, and be hopeful that he will continue working, as you never know what he's going to pull out of his ass next. Besides, you fools, any movie where some evil fucker chops up a bunch of kids with a light saber can't be all that bad, can it?
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who knows 15 years from now i'll be directing episode 7,8,9. right after hell freezes over and dave letterman tells a funny joke
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Florida... totally fucked up and highly suspect. Bush won in the Supreme Court. Technical Win. Hardly worth treating the guy like the pope over. Meanwhile, I liked the movie. I'm not crazy about the NOOOOOOO part (though I see what George was trying to do... going for a DELIBERATELY awkward James Whale-ish Frankenstein and/or Bride of Frankenstein monster birth sequence... though our ingrained images of Darth Vader's birth just don't jive with George's, and may never... Darth Vader should never be anything but cool, except in ROTJ when he's dying) but I can forgive nearly every other flaw with sincere, heartfelt slack-cutting, as I do lines like "I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain". The fact is this movie often charmed me to my core (as opposed to total "aw it wasn't THAT bad" denial a la TPM, which didn't last very long... I finally realized it sucked... Clones too). Anyway this is the best of the prequels. Could be seen as the greatest "deleted scene DVD extra" of all time from Ep 4 at worst. It will probably not age entirely well (even in the short term) but it's an undeniable achievment and will probably be talked about and debated for many years.
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Ok, so I lied about it being the last post... did anyone else thing that Palpatine's story about his Sith master (who could create and sustain life) somehow implied that Anakin was a life that was created? It would explain the whole "imaculate creation" business from the first film, and has a kind of sick logic to it. Perhaps Anakin was created with the sole intention of continuing the Sith line. Perhaps he was always doomed to fall to the dark side because that was his very reason for existence. Perhaps there were a lot of these children created, all different races, throughout the galaxy, strong in the force, with the hopes that one would emerge and become prominent enough to gain the attention of the Sith. Just a thought, but one that I'm surprised that no one else had.
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I come to you in haste oh, High Council of the opinionated, there has been a great undoing in the halls of moviedom this evening. it is now clear to me that all movie's have taken on the dark facade of the LOTR infestation.it is true even the legendary Star Wars series has fallen victim to the might of sauron and his less than unruly cloaked freinds. Anakin Skywalker: frodo, samwise, and golem all rolled into one little pig in the blanket. frodo hair, crazy yellow darskide eyes. and lava lots of lava. mmmmmmmm lava. reminds me of that ham sandwich i ate this morning, so does star wars. okay Yoda Gandolf was the exactly that. and Aragorn, leigolas, Gimli: Obi, apologetic for not doing his job right. Dark Lord of the Sith sideous who was, yes.. sauron and worm-toungetounge, with a little bit of ent. with yes, ladies and gents his servant and our good freind and Saruman Christopher Lee who once again gets his ass handed to him. oh.. uh head handed to him. whether in the vast lands of Isengard, or a falling space ship in the qurhhh-ahhem galaxy. it's evident that there is still things man must tame in order to "evolve" (jealousy, fear, anger, hate, love, sex, condoms, and freindship) can i do it on monday i'm sensing a disturbance in the force today. another moral dillema has left us all breathles and in search of our true selves. must every movie from here to eternity be FRODO-FIED. if you ask me leave it to beaver.... the dark side, the light side, the gray area, where Neo and his bunch, prance around in bondage wear and shoot guns at things. and of course theres always time for a political melodrama, to refrence our hate filled and enthusiastic times. pass me the freedom fries, if i think of George Bush one more time when imagining refrences in a movie, i'm going to throw up... but mister lucas.. Georgy i really have to hand it to you, you really know how to show us everyhthing we already know, and still leave us Baffled! about the way things really are. life was better when things were simpler, Yoda should never have been CGI, you could have called in the Henson Crew To help you imagine life on another world and make it Real!. Alright.. alright. but the giant F*****ing Iguana? a giant Iguana with sound bites from pitch black. good luck future.. godspeed, alas i thought i knew ye. we all know now that in the future we still won't have acomplished anything great. oh but wait it was in a long time ago in a galaxy far far away... was that before middle earth or after. where do we factor in all of this. can we still alter the future. is there going to be a shadows of the empire movie. can frodo get the ring to mordor. only you can save us. Dorks Rule!
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I love A New Hope all the way until they escape Mos Eisley. Then I wish it would cut straight to the TK421 part... and then the chase in the halls, then the trash compactor, then cut straight to the final xwing mission. In Empire, I wish they would cut straight to Dagobah, Cloud City, and then Vader Vs. Luke. In Return of the Jedi, I wish they'd cut straight to Yoda with Luke and then the big space battle and Vader Vs. Luke. In Phantom Menace, they should have cut straight to Darth Maul. In Attack of the Clones, they should have had the assassination, the bounty hunter chase, then jumped to the gladiator part... then jumped to the Dooku fighting. In the final one, they should keep the lightsabre battles and all the Emperor parts. If you could fuse all that together, that would be a cool trilogy. Hehe.
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Ok, I have as much fun as anyone pointing out the plot holes in the Star Wars films, but I have to take issue with the complaints over how Revenge of the Sith suited Vader is scrawnier than he is in any of the other films. The answer is simple, folks: he got fat inside that suit. In Episode III, he's still young and wirey, sure. But don't forget what he turned into by Jedi: a fat bald old man. His bulk was built up over the years he served as the Emperor's number one man, living a life of ease inside of a suit that did everything for him, even his breathing. And once he perfected his long-range choking skills, he didn't even have to exert himself physically to fight. Add in the fact that all he could eat through his faceplate was probably cream of broccoli soup and milkshakes and you've got a pudgy Vader going.
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Bantha. YES.
Tauntaun. YESSSSSSSSS.
Dewback. Ah-ight.
Boga.
BOGA? WTF is that f-ing thing?
It's stupid.
It's annoying.
It sucks.
And. Did I mention it SUCKS!
Strap a saddle on Jar-jar while you are at it.
It was WORSE than that AOTC arena with the frickin' lizard that Anankin and Garden State chickie ride.
BOGA!
Even the toy is a peice of craptastic garbage!
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VICTOR FLEMING RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!!!
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My father had an objection to Anakin killing the young padawan children, and thought choking a pregnant Padme was a bit over the edge. I reminded him that Lucas wanted this film to be dark and to give us the true nature of Darth Vader. Then to quell his feelings I popped in the original trilogy on hid DVD player and told him to watch and listen to the subject matter, because he should get a better sense as to what they were talking about in those films.
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according to some sources at imdb, certain reels of ep. 3 had a scene where yoda talked to quigon in 'force form' which is why he refernced this method of communication to obiwan AND on this reel, yoda is seen on dagobah, going into exile, as obiwan is seen on tatooine... i dont know if this is true or not, but i was just checking, since i figured someone on here would be able to justify this statement...
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I've seen hundred of movies with moments stupider than that. Mr. Freeze's dialogue in "Batman and Robin". The entire ending to "Ocean's 12". Remember the part of Tim Burton's "Planet of the Apes" with monkey Abraham Lincoln? "Superman 4", anyone? Ever heard of this movie called "The Omega Code"? If you think anything in STAR WARS was the worst, anything, ever...you need to see more movies.
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HAHAHAHAHAHA
Man that sure made my day!!! -
I remember during the Count Dooku confrontation, Anakin said something like:
"My powers are 10 times greater than before!!"
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SITH made $125 million in its first three days buddy compared to Spidey's $114 million. You can go cry now.
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Episode 3 provided us with the one connection that was needed to justify making a prequel to the original trilogy. It's too bad we had to waste a lot of time to get to that connection(the planet coooooorrrre, pod racing, Anakin riding space-cows, 'i'm beside myself', etc.) Regardless, we got the payoff. The Obi-Wan/Anakin battle and the transformation sequence sealed the deal. The duel was superb in every way, right down to Anakin's arrogance at the end. And when he shows fear as that mask is coming down, and how his first question when he stands up is 'where's Padme, is she ok?' in that booming, yet somehow now vulnerable voice, I for one can now see little Ani through the suit. This movie added so much to the OT, Vader means so much more now. Kudos for Episode 3, the good outweighs the bad.
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I felt like Darth Vader the morning after I saw ROTS. Lumbering out of my bed, one leg awkwardly stumbling in front of the other, my arms outstretched, thoughts of the film raced around in my head until I could only lift it back and scream, "Nooooooooo!"
He ruined it. That's right. After all this, after all the hype, after all the fucking excuses, George Lucas coughed up yet another steamy pile of cinematic vomit thinly veiled as a Star Wars installment.
Oh, but we'll forget all that. There was so much stuff to be thankful for, like the... uh, the... scene where... hmm. Well, Chewbacca was in it, and Jar Jar Binks only had a cameo! Lucas actually listened! BEST FUCKING MOVIE EVER, FUCK YOU HATERS wOOt!!!
Ugh. That is the rhetoric of bitter fools. This film--and the two films before it--were utter dreck. Surprisingly, the acting and the pacing and, oh fuck it, EVERYTHING got worse as the story got better. It's like a 13-year-old kid masturbating for the first time, all of that work finally paying off in one, overlong spasm of uncontrollable sensation that's been eagerly anticipated for a long time.
And just like that kid, at the end, all ROTS leaves is a big, embarrassing mess and an empty sensation.
Nothing worked in Episode III. From Anakin's turn to the slaughter of the Jedi to the rise of the Empire--nothing was effective. How is that possible? This is the stuff film geeks have been pining after for years, and Lucas is just going to leave them hanging like that?
Fuck him. He doesn't care. It's like he wrote the script to this movie on the bus to school. Every important segment is glossed over, handled in a simple two-line dialogue, and then cast off. "Fucking nerds," he probably thought. "They know all this anyway. No need to waste my valuable ship-landing time."
And, oh boy, do they land. That's what so awful about these films. It's all visuals and no voice. You could watch these movies on mute and understand everything, plus do yourself a favor by cutting out every bit of wooden dialogue. There is no drama here, no passion, just actors going through the motions while spaceships zip past and something else explodes.
What we, the fans, wanted was a return to the original trilogy. The most exciting scenes in ROTS do take place in the last five minutes, sure, but it's the sets and the costumes--a complete return to the original form--that causes excitement.
Lucas didn't get it. We didn't want him to reinvent Star Wars. We loved the sets, the costumes, the PUPPETS, and the fucking story most of all. He went and fucked all of it up, every last bit until the only recognizable thing about Star Wars in its original form is hocking Cingular phones on TV. -
Ya think? Incidentally, I knew exactly which tools I saw the movie with were patrons of this site, because, right on cue they said how the "NOOOOO!" line was "like, the stupidest decison ever" and because they booed when Padme said "you're breaking my heart."
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"hahaha 'Sith' didn't even beat the number one opening three-day weekend tally of all time. Eat it, Lucas." Yeah, you sure showed him. Idiot.
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...that's why the NOOOOO scene is getting such a strong reaction. I don't think people are "overreacting" to it because there are other stupid moments in other movies that go uncommented upon. This isn't Jar Jar tying his shoes. This is a moment many fans have been waiting for since 1977. It didn't meet expectations. We wanted Darth born mean and confident and instead it was more like seeing the Joker rising from that legendary vat of chemicals. A messy and tragicomic birth. Was it a bad idea? I don't know... "I am your father" and Luke & Leia being siblings seemed pretty weird at the time too. Lucas seems to be deliberately changing our perception of Vader with EVERY movie since Ep 4, not just this one. For better or worse, maybe it's all going according to his master plan, whatever that is. Lucas has gone on record before the movie even came out that he made that scene deliberately awkward. It was a choice, not a plain old goof. A bad choice? Time will tell. It's certainly getting a big reaction. I didn't exactly like it but I find the whole thing kind of interesting as bizarre Lucas choices go.
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Yeah, 'Revenge of the Sith' isn't going to be the best movie ever because those darned "unwashed" can't appreciate art, especially when it's depressing. You keep telling yourself that. By the way, what happened at the end of 'Titanic?' I'm pretty sure Leonardo DiCaprio didn't stop Kate Winslet at an airport an propose...
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First of all, you should "know" why you hated it. I "think" you do in your heart of hearts and just don't want to admit it to yourself. But I also "think" people are responding so negatively to the "NOOOOOOOOO!" scene because they expect too much from Star Wars and, more specifically, they expect Darth Vader to be a total badass. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Incidentally, I'm pretty sure there have been plenty of movies where people have screamed "NOOOOOO!" and I'm pretty sure they all sounded just as lame as the one in Episode III did.
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The problem is the film isn't depressing enough. The last scene of the film is way too cheery.
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I'd say that's not "the" problem, but it's a problem. But I'm not sure what that had to do with what I was talking about.
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May 23, 2005 12:25:44 AM CDT
Do you apologists even remember what Luke said to Leia about the
by conan_the_humble
Luke: "Leia. do you remember your mother? YOUR REAL MOTHER?" Leia: "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young. She was beautiful but sad. Why are you asking me this? Luke: I have no memory of my mother." And the scene continues. If Leia remember Padme I doubt she would remember her as "sad" she would remember her as choking to death and dying. Notice also tht Luke asks Leia about her mother and then MORE specifically about her REAL mother, implying that he knows Leia was raised by the Organa's, but that he ALSO knows that Mrs Organa is not her REAL mother. Stop trying to justify it guys. It's yet another plot flaw due to nothing more than simple poor writing on GL's behalf. Cheers.
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"Yeah, 'Revenge of the Sith' isn't going to be the best movie ever because those darned "unwashed" can't appreciate art, especially when it's depressing. You keep telling yourself that. By the way, what happened at the end of 'Titanic?' I'm pretty sure Leonardo DiCaprio didn't stop Kate Winslet at an airport an propose..."
That's what I was directing my comment at. -
May 23, 2005 12:27:22 AM CDT
Here's what's bothering me about this talkback (a final word)...
by voice o. reason
What I'm seeing is that there's a fairly vocal minority that would rather obsess over the 3 things Lucas did wrong with this movie than acknowledge the 30 things he did right. I've heard and read people say they didn't really like the movie over the most non-consequential things, such as the super-battle droids being given cartoony voices, General Grievous coughing, or the aforementioned Vader yell (which FYI, was an homage to monster movies of the 1930s).
There are some legitimate complaints out there from people regarding how Anakin transitioned to evil...but 90% of the criticism has been over seriously trivial BS. -
May 23, 2005 12:28:23 AM CDT
Pre NOOOOO that scene is uncontroversially great though...
by catbarf the 5th
Loved the creepy robo-medical Vader-assembly scene and mutilated Anakin looking terrified and confused as his limbs are replaced. The subjective POV shot of the mask coming down on Anakin's face is chilling, as is that last-second expression of fear and uncertainty (regret?) on his face as the mask comes down with a final-as-death ka-thunk and Anakin Skywalker is gone forever, but for a fleeting moment of redemption with his son in 25 or so years just before he dies. The audience cheered when Vader drew his first mechanical breath. All of that struck me as damn near perfect. At least we have that, even if some of us (maybe me included, I don't know yet) can't get over the NOOOOO thing (and the fact that some geeks in the audience had more convincing Vader outfits than Hayden C did). That one is still being processed in my mental detoxification and rationalization center, trying to make it OK. I can *rationalize* it (see above posts), but I can't quite like it. Not so of the rest of the scene. Pretty killer.
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May 23, 2005 12:31:50 AM CDT
How can you say that Vader losing all being turned into cheese i
by billy ho
We don't need a fucking homage at the climax of the trilogy. That is a serious problem. I don't have any serious problems with the rest of the flick.
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May 23, 2005 12:36:43 AM CDT
I do agree with what Catbarf said about the rest of that scene
by billy ho
awesome! That's why the yell was such a let down, things were going soooo well....
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It looked to me like he had organs and junk underneath that robo-chest of his. If this is something that's been addressed further up the TalkBack, I'm sorry to say that even I don't have enough free time to look over the whole damn thing.
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May 23, 2005 12:43:51 AM CDT
Billy Ho, you do realzie that the entire series is really just a
by voice o. reason
I'll admit the way the scene was shot seemed inappropriate (him yelling "NO!!!!" was not wrong, just the way it was filmed), but I'm willing to put it in perspective and not let it ruin the rest of the movie for me.
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That was in response to someone else's post, who leveled the charge that people thought it was too depressing. I'm pretty sure you're not going to find many people who think it wasn't depressing enough. I can understand that you thought it was the problem, but I guess going back to what I said earlier, it's a problem, not THE problem as far as I'm concerned. But it's certainly not what's stopping it from outgrossing 'Titanic' in B.O. totals.
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Yeah, I wasn't saying it was THE problem either. There were a lot of problems, all of them equally as damning as that one.
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Now by "apologists" do you mean "revisionist apologists" or just, anyone who apologizes for Lucas in general? Because I can be construed as an apologist for defending certain aspects of the movie from the angry nerds on this TalkBack, but I don't condone, and actually thought it was kind of ridiculous how much of the third movie seemed to fly in the face of history already established. That's the problem with having barely any creative input, I suppose; any other production probably would have caught all of them before the script even shot.
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Lucas owed it to his legacy as a film maker to keep some of the suspense in his saga. From the moment I heard of the prequels I thought he needs to keep Anakins fate a mystery for future generations. Others have talked about how this could have been done. I would further suggest that with some reediting the twins surprise could have worked. A couple times the camera angle shifted to outside the delivery room, from
Yoda's POV or something. This is what he should have been done in place of showing Padme naming the kids. We see she has twins, but the sex of the children and their names are not revealed. Then instead of Bail saying "I'll take the girl. We always wanted to adopt a girl", the scene should have gone something like this.....cut to Bail with the child in his arms. Obi says "The child must be kept safe" Bail replies "Master Kenobi I will guard this young one with my life. What of the other child?" Obi then says his line about taking him to live with his relatives. So from this exchange we learn that one of the twins is male and that Obi is taking him
to Tatooine...the other is going to live with Bail Organa who for all we know has 10 kids already. During Ep 4 a first time viewer could suspect that Leia is the other child but will not truely find out until Ep 6...........
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If you care, my two cents (along with links to short movies arguably better than all three prequels) are here. http://joehanson.blogspot.com/ Wu-Tang Forever.
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I suppose there was no way that Revenge of the Sith could live up to its expectations - even considering that they were greatly lowered by its two predecessors, but somehow Lucas managed to top (or rather bottom) himself again. How could anyone fumble the ball on a "paint-by-the-numbers", idiot-proof movie like Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith? I actually felt embarrassed for the very talented cast of actors forced to spout the incredibly bad dialogue written for this film. Furthermore, the motivation for Anakin turning to the dark side and murdering children was completely ridiculous and unbelievable. Order 66? Are you serious? I know that 666 would not have been subtle enough (ooh, so evil), but what were orders 1 - 65? It's like Plan 9 from Outer Space. What happened to the other 8 plans? lol There is so much wrong with this film that I don't even have the space to go into it here. Suffice to say, I think that they could have taken the last half hour of this film, scrap the rest of the entire prequel trilogy, and just insert it into Return of the Jedi as a voice-over flashback during the Luke/Obi Wan's ghost conversation sequence on Dagobah(sp?). It would have saved us all a lot of time and disappointment.
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Aunt Beru was bangin, yo.
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May 23, 2005 1:37:22 AM CDT
Yeah, i'm still conflicted about the revealing of the twins...
by iamnicksaicnsn
I'm going to have to watch them all in a row, and decide whether it will be appropriate to introduce Star Wars as 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, or in order... I'm still leaning on OT then NT, especially since 2/3rds of the NT sucks donkey coos.
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Admittedly, the bellowed regret was a cringe worthy moment the first time around. Maybe in subsequent viewings, knowing that it's coming, it won't be so bad. I really dug the Frankenstein walk and the raw force destruction, and the shots of the mask coming down were some of the most powerful in the saga, but I think the delivery could have been more akin to Vader's groan/scream at the end of Jedi when he loses his hand. A little more pained, less broad. Palpatine telling Vader that he killed Padme (certainly true from a certain point of view) was a strong choice, and it gave some credence to Vader saving Luke at the end of Jedi - a moment I always saw as abrupt. As far as Leia remembering her mother, I had read something a long time ago that after Leia was adopted by the Organa's, a still living Padme was "undercover" more or less as one of the handmaidens before she did finally die. That would have been an equal irony, echoing when she posed as a handmaiden when she was actually queen. This would have justified Leia's memories, but whether she can "force feel" these images or if she just remembers Organa's wife - I'll buy either one. I'm surprised at the complete lack of suspension of disbelief some people refuse to employ when watching a fantasy of this magnitude. Killing Padme on screen was pretty brave, and her funeral a nice counterpoint to the Naboo parade in TPM. The medical droid addressing her will to live was just the kind of near surrealism Lucas sometimes slips in that I enjoy. If only he had said she was dying of a broken heart, everyone would bitch, but I for one like it when droids get a little poetic. Another little detail I liked - R2 retaining his memory. Explains why he knows exactly which way to go on Tatooine in ANH.
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May 23, 2005 1:56:45 AM CDT
NEW RULE: Anyone who refers to acting as "wooden" is retarded. A
by bill maher
What's even more annoying is all you big fat fags whining because there's no bullet time is Star Wars.... .... .... well... ... ... FUCK YOU! Bullet time might be cool to you pud-flogging imbeciles who still the the Matrix is cool, but everyone else knows it surpassed SMELLOVISION as the lamest gimmick in movie history. Here's a hint: Guys in trechcoats running around and shooting people stopped being cool at Columbine. Bullet time is more dated than Mambo Number Five, but at least Lou Bega has a hot chick shaking her big bouncy ass... Oh like that would matter to you bullet time cocksuckers!
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The fall of Anakin starts long before that fateful moment with Mace Windu. That is just the final step. It started with the Tuskin Raider massacre and the crucial point was the marriage to Padme. That was a huge slap in the face to the Jedi Order. Just wanted to point that out to Riccage. Also don't forget lopping off the dome of a defenseless Dooku.
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May 23, 2005 2:02:45 AM CDT
NEW RULE: Anyone who doesn't like Revenge of the Sith prefers to
by bill maher
You are all Lucas' little piglet bitches. "I hate Lucas! WAAAAAAH!" is all I heard from you fucktards -while standing in line behind me waiting to get into the fucking theatre or sitting throught the credits and blocking the walkways with your lardasses while normal people like me try to leave (you know, when the credits roll, it's the polite way of saying "Show's Over -now get the fuck out of here!) without you fat tubs of goo crushing our children. You whining sows make me sick, so fuck you.
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May 23, 2005 2:08:51 AM CDT
NEW RULE: Anyone who uses homophobic remarks to get his point ab
by ribbons
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First of all, Liea just has FLASHES and feelings of her mother not true memories. Lucas remembers what he wrote and what was said- stop reading the way YOU think he should have done it, and concentrate on what HE has done. The other thing... Anakin did NOT turn suddenly. He's developed over THREE movies. It's all there if you just look. Lucas is done and made his masterpiece. Time will tell if it shall last.
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My thoughts; http://www.tpsreport.co.uk/news/fullnews.php?id=123
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Sure the bottomline is the amount of money it was gonna make. It's the last freakin SW movie, everyone was gonna see it anyway the mainstream movie goer and the fans, that was a given. But look at what the mainstream movie goer makes number one every week, mostly shit movies. It's already been proven the mainstream movie goer will see anything, no matter how bad it is. The mainstream movie goer will see anything new that comes out on Friday. Hey put Will Smith in it, boom, number one. Put J. Lo in it, boom, number one. Let Michael Bay direct, boom, number one. When this crappy remake of The Longest Yard comes out, it'll be number one too. The mainstream movie goer has ruined the movie going experience. The mainstream movie goer doesn't know good from bad. If it's got action and overblown FX, it apparently "kicks ass." The mainstream movie goer makes Hollywood produce shit, because they know they will see it. However, in most cases the mainstream movie goer does not equate to repeat business. SW is SW, it's gonna make money no matter what. Bottom line is, it should have completed the great movie saga in history. Instead, it was just another lousey summer blockbuster.
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May 23, 2005 3:03:31 AM CDT
One complaint: We got to see chewbacca and tarfull. What about
by cherrycola
I mean, after all...they ARE family! Lucas really dropped the ball by not showing us chewbacca's extended family. oh well, maybe he's saving it for the DVD.
http://www.stomptokyo.com/movies/star-wars-holiday-special.html -
How many people who love ROTS hated Sky Captain? It seems to me, when you really strip it all down to the core quality, they both measure about the same. Question the second: how many people now poo-pooing on those who point out the inconsistencies between OT & PT were up in arms over "Greedo shoots first"? I enjoyed ROTS, but recognize its flaws (and the flaws of the entire PT). The PT is not now, nor will ever be, as good as the OT. Before you give me the whole "look through your young self's eyes" argument, I'll give you this: My wife watched the OT for the first time right before Phantom Menace came out. In one sitting. She loved it. Looooved it. She has no desire to see ROTS because she felt Phantom & AOTC were pretty awful films. So you see, it's not just that I (and so many others) have become jaded and cynical, it's that there's just something missing from these films that was there before. It doesn't make me mad, I don't think Lucas raped my childhood; it just makes me a little sad. To me, the biggest mistake was the characterization of Anakin in AOTC. If he had been portrayed as a confident, almost cocky teenager who was very sure just how powerful he was, and confidently wooed Padme, it would have made his tumble more acceptable in my opinion. If you love the PT, I'm happy for you. Just please don't be so hateful to those who didn't. Unless they're jackasses. Then feel free to verbally crucify them. That is all. May the Force be with you all.
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Someone who deserves a lot of credit and isn't being mentioned is, John Williams. His tragic music, like the track Anakin's Betrayal, which is used through out ROTS, with much effect. Helps elevate this movie to greatness. I cry almost everytime I hear it.
Watching Yoda climb on Chewbacca's back with that music. It was so sad to see Yoda like that and when he says, "goodbye Chewbacca" He gets in his little podship and we know it'll be one the last times we ever see him. It was just so sad.
Well, after having seen it about 10 times now. I gotta say, the acting is uneven, but thankfully it's good at the right times, minus the awful vader scream of, NOOO! That is the cheesiest cornball scream ever, hehe.
I'll give you an example. When Anakin & Obi-Wan are lava surfing. They have a small verbal confrontation. It's awful and almost throws the whole duel sequence into turmoil.
Obi-Wan - I have failed you Anakin. I failed you.
Anakin - I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over. (Duh. I guess you should have?)
Obi-Wan - Anakin! Chancellor Palpatine is Evil!
Anakin - From my point of view the Jedi are evil (You did not just say that. I mean, are they Anakin? Since when? Where is this coming from?)
Obi-Wan - Well then you are lost!!! (hahaha!)
Weee! lets go lava surfing come on and safari with me.
Thankfully the scene ends with strong performances, when it most needs too. Anakin's "I HATE YOU!" is so gut wrenchingly effective, that you almost forget all his bad acting from the previous movie and for the first time. You feel his pain, but is it a little bit too late? Either way this last scene between Anakin & Obi-Wan is amazing and again, listen to William's music. It helps elevate an already great scene to bigger heights.
(Anakin has his arm and limbs cutoff by Obi-Wan. Anakin waddles on the ground like a baby seal. Screaming in agony.)
Anakin - You were the choosen. It was said you'd destroy the sith, not join them...bring balance to the force, not leave it in drkness.
Anakin - I HATE YOU!!!
Obi-Wan - You were my brother Anakin. I loved you.
Anakin (Burning Alive) Argh! NOOO! AHHH!
(Obi-Wan walks away.)
It's scenes like that and the Jedi Purge, Anakin & Padme looking out their windows at each other. Mace getting shot out the window like a rocket. Darth Sidious disturbing behavior and cackling sounds. The sound the Boga makes that Obi-Wan rides, to name a few.
It's unforgettable stuff, is it a perfect movie? No. Is it the best prequel made, yes by far!, and here's my main reason why. Ever since ROTJ, every SW movie had ended with a huge battle. I was sick of that, from Ewoks against Stormtroopers, to Gugans against Droids, to Clonetroopers against Droids. ROTS had a real story with different layers and it didn't end with a big war, but with tragedy, much like Empire. -
May 23, 2005 3:15:42 AM CDT
first chance to post since i saw it on thursday evening....
by banthafodderuk
..... and i thought it was fucking excellent - there's no way that lucas won't make the sequel trilogy now.
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Is it me or does the moon/planet where Yoda and Obi Wan are at after the Duel(s) looked like the moon in 2001??? even the aliens there seem to have orange costumes with helmet looking heads. the only thing missing was the black obelisk.
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Fuckin ridiculous, that scene was.
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May 23, 2005 3:38:57 AM CDT
No Vampires or werewolves in this one, but we do get Frankenstei
by ashesofdonnie
I serioulsy was expecting Palpatine to laugh maniacally and say "It's Alive, It's alive"!!!!
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and all the other people who liked this movie for some reason or another, and complain that i dont like this movie because i have a thousand trivial problems. one out of many things i learned in film school is: "God is in the details" not to mention lucas fucked up not just the little things but almost everything. i already have commented on many the problems and yes i still am going to buy this movie and watch it in theatres multiple times but here is one more thing to think about it, what the fuck was the point of the wookie planet? just to show chewbacca? to throw a bone to the fans, really, think about it, yoda could have gone anywhere.... lucas has fallen as a filmmaker, and im sorry to say that.
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May 23, 2005 4:01:38 AM CDT
Why Wookies? "Why" indeed. It could've been...Ewoks! Arrrgh! Thi
by techtite
Some people are overanalyzing about the whole "Wookie" thing. Every Jedi was sent alone to a separate planet, along with a Clone Army they were allegedly
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May 23, 2005 4:15:46 AM CDT
No one has really mentioned how badass Obi-Won was: he fuckin di
by chickychow
Still didn't like the movie that much.
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did Luke not suffer any scarring from the prolonged force lightning strikes he received in ROTJ?
Was I the only one who though Padme looked very slight for someone carrying twins at obviously an advanced stage of pregnancy?
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this fil needed its director and writer to seriously think about what needed to be done, dramatically and storytelling wise, this film could have no amusement as long as lucas sat down, did his homework on what need to be filled in from 2 to 4 and figure out the best way to do it. fuck amusement, i wanted a star wars film that made sense
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if lucas did such a great job then why is there so many questions needed to be filled in by fanboys and more importantly, if he did a halfway decent job then why is there more than one answer to each question, plain and simple: lucas fucked up. stop making excuses, let it be.
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I know Star Wars fanatics, especially that idiot Powermetal1, who for some reason still LOVE Phantom Menace and Attack of the clones, and are trying to paint the haters with this image that all the haters have no life, and have personality problems, blah blah blah. Well not true. That one ain't gonna hold up. Because if your an adult, and you still adore The Phantom Menace, that pretty much puts you in the mold of virgin, living with their parents in their basement. All the haters ever wanted was Star Wars movie. Seeing how thats not what was delivered then a little advance warning would have been nice. They could put it right there below the MPAA rating. It would say "For ages 6 and under". That would have saved a whole lot of grief and time. Now having said that, Revenge of the Sith is pretty good. Not great, just pretty good.
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(I.E. ending Sith after Obi Wan leaves him and shifting the armour fitting to Jedi flashback) Sound good in theory, and Dumb Ape makes a strong case too. However i'm not convinced it would work. For a start, leaving Anakin burning and yelling would be a bit of a let down of a finale for a central character we've invested 7 hours in. 'Oh, well I guess he dies there then'. For that matter, from that point, through all of a New Hope, until the reveal at the end of Empire the audience would be thinking 'why have we just seen 3 complete films about Luke's dad'. There's no link, story wise. Sure, it would add impact to that moment but just further detracts from the original Episode IV as a standalone movie rather than part of the 'Anakin saga'. Plus that line from Obi Wan in ANH along the lines of "Darth Vader who was a pupil of mine killed your father" would have to go (more story complications), along with all the references to Vader in Sith. In short, the best viewing order is the originals then prequels (then originals :). Not like starting a novel half way, more like an extended flashback.
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Full circle baby. That was a fitting end. It truly does make me love the series more than ever. Ewan McGregor was amazing as Obi-wan. I now see why chicks dig him (though I don't in that way). Remember, some poor Star Wars loving bastards died before they could see this picture. Count yourselves among the lucky who did.
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Just to show I don't swallow or suck up. That chick is so lame it is laughable. The large segment of the "crowd" that wants a half-hot chick who is acceptable to mother is why she is in movies. So unbelievably lame. Died from shitty acting more like it.
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She is at least on par with that friggen lame bone ass Portman. Don't breasts grow during pregnancy?
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Portman is a shitty actress. Playing a stripper was quite a stretch when many gentlemen prefer tits. Get the Similac for Luke and Leia no matter what... those teats don't treat.
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What's with Portman and the legs bound together birthing? Them heads is HUGE. I seen em and it ain't pretty! (Bigger than you Portman fans certainly). I can just see that no-tit, no nudity "stripper" saying: "Eeeck, you can't show my legs spread, I'm Natalie Hersh...Portman!"
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Too much flesh? What flesh? Bones aren't flesh. And a rib cage certainly isn't breasts. Lets see...hummm..who would have played that scene for all it was worth? Jessica Simpson arched back, with her chest heaving in the throes of delivering TWINS no less. Jessica Simpson could have played Padme with more emotion! (and she at least has the rack to make us cry if she died).
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Sick of it. I didn't care about the characters. The writing was horrible. The movie was just not entertaining.
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May 23, 2005 5:53:27 AM CDT
"Sith makes more money in ten minutes than you mother's made fro
by banthafodderuk
i like that man! ; )
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I thought Star Trek's Mr. Spock was going to show up to challenge Anakin to fight to the death to win her hand. When you judge Hayden remember he had to play off that skeletal robot. Everytime I saw that lame-o "actress" I was instantly transported back to the sticky (Portman fans to blame?) floored multiplex.
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You're right mate - ABSOLUTELY FUCKING LOVED IT - I had read that a lot of people were slagging off the r2 bits at the beginning, but i thought they were fucking cool man!!!! - just hearing r2's scream brought back a lot of memories - I've seen it twice at the cinema now, and have 'acquired' the very good (apart from the ****ing timer along the top) dvd copy - it stands up to multiple viewings. SOUNDS GAY, BUT DID ANYONE ELSE GET THAT SHIVER UP THEIR SPINE JUST AFTER THE 'FOX FANFARE' JUST BEFORE THE SW THEM STARTED UP?????
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... I MEANT TO TYPE 'THEME' NOT 'THEM' what a wanker
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LOVED: *The massive close-up of Vader's helmet sealing shut for the first time, and his first breaths* *The cross-cutting between the birth of Vader and the birth of the twins* *The Godfather-esque Order 66 scenes* *"I hate you"* HATED: *Padme - a wet fish of a character* *Bail Organa - utterly superfluous* *"Noooooooooo!"* *That fucking little brat saying "Master Anakin, there's too many of them; what are we going to do?"* WOULD HAVE PREFERRED: *James Earl Jones to have a little more conviction, a little more fucking balls with the "No" line. That should have been him tearing his throat out, what maybe starts out as a "No" becoming a primal scream, a guttural roar. That would have sold me on that moment and that character arc.* *More Moff Tarkin! Where the fuck did he go? 2 shots?* *More Kit Fisto. I think he rocks harder than Mace Windu, myself - and weren't Ki-Adi Mundi and that bitch Jedi a bit pathetic?* *The Duel - bit crap. Would have like to have seen Anakin gradually gaining scars- first the one on his cheek, then the one across his head, and only then lopping his arms and legs off and toasting him* GLAD THEY CHANGED: *Vader's arms being strapped up to being strapped down - doesn't look as pathetic* (although when he crosses his arms at the end of the movie he was swimming in the suit)
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in episode 7 we'll see that padme's tits have been cloned and grown to massive proportions. the tits will get their 'revenge' on luke skywalker- the son of the man who got her up the spout, and then strangled her- by titwanking him to death (REMEMBER WHERE YOU READ THIS FIRST).
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By apologists, I meant those who defend EVERYTHING GL has ever done either in this or any of the prequels and not suprisingly they are littered through this tb, along with retards like Powermetal. Mate, Vader "owned" Obi-Wan did he? Did you miss the bit where Obi-Wan drops his lightsaber and ALLOWS Vader to strike him down? I suppose you also missed the bit where his body disappears immediately eh? Unlike all the other Jedi who's remains "remain" where they dropped. I don't know why I'm bothering. This shit is so simple and straight-forward I don't know why I'm bothering to argue this. If the blatantly obvious escapes your grasp nothing I can write is going to change any of the (closed) minds around here... Cheers.
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COULDNT HAVE PUT IT BETTER MYSELF MATE ; D EPS7-9 WILL HAPPEN
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Watch her...she almost laughs at times. She either doesn't buy into her role OR...she utterly sucks as an actress. I'd go with the latter.
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Mate. ROTS was fucking awesome. I saw it twice yesterday and the theater was applauding, cheering, and crying like mad. What a great experience, and better yet, what a big FUCK YOU to the Haters. Did you and CptKirks2Pay see it with Michele Heaton???? And what did you think of the FA Final???
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the early comedy bits with R2 were actually funny. i agree that Portman was rubbish (though I dont agree with the fact that because she hasnt got huge Cali fake breasts she's not attractive, even with skinhead she's fine)- As for acting- only McDiarmid (sp) and McGregor were acting, top marks to those two
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...although I'm seeing it again at the cinema tonight.
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... you're right, its fucking excellent isnt it? Cpt Kirks 2pay is on holiday at the moment, but im sure he'll have seen it too. AS FOR THE FA CUP, (and this will make bluemancbrit piss himself laughing, im sure) IM ABSOLUTELY GUTTED MAN UTD DIDNT WIN- WE WERE ROBBED!!!! AAAAGH!
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As the whisky hits I'm even more psyched. That movie (3 hours ago) was friggen amazing. From my 34 year old brother to my 4 year old daughter... they are going to LOVE IT (hands over daughter's eys for napalmed Anakin). Bow down you fucking ingrates and thank the Force that Modesto, CA gave us George Lucas. (Padme still sucks but she is but a vessel to deliver episodes 4-6).
AND Qui-gon Jinn defeats death? Oh the bitter irony for tragic Darth. This movie went so far as to create room for a 3B episode. Chant, clap and flick you bics...LUCAS will return to the stage. -
((was a decent game for 0-0 and penalties are always great (as a neutral). I needed Utd to win really for my fantasy football team to win my minileague, (second place had loads of Arsenal defenders)I think I was pipped at the post.))------
as for my ROTS experience, the only people I saw dressed up were when we were sat in the pub afterwards, saw a couple of kids in Jedi robes walk past and a six year old Vader refusing to wear his mask and getting told off by his dad. -
first, let me say, i'm one of the LOVERS, not the haters. (IMHO, the haters just hate because they have nothing else better to do.) ROTS blew my mind (and heart). okay then... speculation -- OB1 and Yoda go to the Jedi temple to stop the "return" code, as a way to keep the Jedi from coming back to their certain death, right? does this mean that there are a whole bunch of Jedi still out there, scattered about the galaxy? Ronin Jedi? hellooooo spin-off show! (didn't see Kit Fisto get killed... hmmm....)
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The FA Cup game did not even start here until 11 pm, so it was a late night to say the least. I wanted the Red Devils to win, but for fuck sake, how many chances did they blow, especially von nistilrooy? And how about Paul Scholes; talk about some one who could really turn to the Dark Side!!! That guy has had shit luck for a while, and when his penalty kick got blocked, I got the same feeling as I did when Becks sailed his penalty kick in Euro 2004. Does Liverpool have a chance in hell against AC Milan? And back to SW, I don't know about you mate, but when Obi Wan rode up to the homestead, and you heard Luke Skywalker's theme from ANH, I got a lump in my throat and was fighting back the tears. I really felt like the saga was full circle at that point, and I felt like I did when I was a little kid, all over again. Fucking awesome!!I don't know of any other movie that has that power.
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May 23, 2005 6:51:56 AM CDT
The Frankenstein comment about Vader. How exactly do anyone expe
by the founder
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no, not ROTS but Blade Trinity, if the DVD itself could talk then it would apologise for being such a waste of space and throw itself out of the nearest window (if it can talk, it may as well be able to walk)--------------oh and one thing thats worrying me about ROTS, IF the clone troopers in the PT are the stormtroopers in the OT then how did they go from skilled jedi killing soldiers (PT)to unable to shoot straight, banging head on Death Star doors, pieces of crap (OT) in the space of about 18 yrs? Maybe this is what the rumoured TV series will feature.
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To answer your question bluemancbrit, I read somewhere that Lucas said that the Empire gets so big that they need conscripts/non-clones to fulfill their needs. The clones were basically an instant, "quick fix" army for Palpatine. Remember that the clones age twice as fast, so many of the surviving clones would no longer be militarily suitable. Also, notice that the officer corps is not clones. And back to Blade:Trinity, I agree that it was disappointing. I loved Blade, and enjoy Blade II, bit Blade Trinity did not really do it for me. A lot of haters on this TB hated the PT, but they can not say that the PT did not end with a bang, unlike the Blade franchise.
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Hey guys. Just seen this and the movie is 1000 times better than the first 2 although it is far from perfect. In fact despite the action and the 'revelations' there seems to have been no proper thought behind either of the prequel stories. It just all seems a little rushed and gimmicky. Here are a couple of examples:
1) When Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and Windu was deflecting the lightning bolt back onto Palpatine, Palpatine grew older and disfigured. Why didnt the same happen to Luke in Jedi?
2) With all the gadjets R2 uses(the utiliy R2 used to catch something with, his jet heels etc) why werent these evident in the first trilogy?
3) At the end when they hid Luke and Leia from Vader, why on earth would you want to send Luke to Vaders step family especially as Anakin / Vader knows of it and has stepped foot into the Lars' home?
4) Amongst one of the biggest fuck ups was the death of Padme. I mean what was the sole purpose of Anakin choosing the Dark Side? To save Padme right? So what does Vader do once he hears that Padme has died? He moans like a lil bitch! No mention of him trying to resurrect her ... seems a bit pointless him turning to the Dark Side in the first place doesnt it?
I'm there are a few more points worth mentioning but cant remember them right now. Anyway, really not trying to nit-pick or anything but I for one have been hugely dissapointed at the lack of a proper and solid storyline for a saga that truly deserves it. Such a waste. -
The "Rise" of Vador when rebuild is different between the trailers and the Movie. In the Trailers Vador has both hands attached up by his shoulders. In the Movie they are next to his legs. Did Lucas had another ending when he doesn't scream??? Swissben
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cheers Krullboy, fair point though it just highlights the general confusion surrounding the SW universe. Seen as a one off film (away from all the history/success/fandom of the OT and the two, rubbish PT films) I thought ROTS was very good.
As for Blade Trinity- you know the film is going to struggle when even its title doesnt make sense, 'trinity'? do they have dictionaries in Hollywood? -
Have seen it twice already and thought it was fantastic, yes there were flaws, the odd cringy line, some bad cgi especially on Cody but there was so much to love that it more than compensated for the bad. The sabre duels were all breathtaking, well choreographed and very well shot. Yoda v Siddious was a riot, almost thought it was gonna descend into bitch slapping and hair pulling, just great fun. And they say George has no sense of humour? What I liked the most was Ian McD, what an excellently oily and sinister performance, damn almost made me want to join the Sith too, great to see his three movie plan finally come to fruition, genius.
Hayden gave a much better account of himself, although there were a few moments of Joey Tribiani smell the fart acting. "I hate you" was hilarious when it should have been gut wrenching. Some of the best scenes had least dialogue, spoke volumes about the impact of the material and perhaps a trim was needed on Menace and Clones too script wise, I guess it worked best when it could breathe.
The real proof was in the pudding though, watched New Hope afterwards and was a seamless transition, I was sceptical that perhaps the prequels would detract from the originals, but I think they have actually helped to enrich and enhance the whole Star Wars experience, New Hope was better for having seen Sith, and considering it was already 10/10 that aint no bad thang.
Empire tonight!
Strange how the darkside movies turned out to be the best in the series!! God bless the sith!
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It's OK, I guess. Better than TPM and Clones. Hopefully it gets better. I really get deflated by any scene where Jedi walk through hundreds of battle droids with no effort, though. Why would anyone even manufacture the things? Save the electronics, just put a bunch of mannequins in your landing bay for people to stroll through. I know there should be more actual jeopardy as the movie rolls along, though. And I imagine it will be more powerful when I see it in the theatre.
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May 23, 2005 8:51:07 AM CDT
Is there some kind of mod that can un-stretch this talkback?
by rev_skarekroe
If I ask nicely, maybe? Please?
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Some great moments, some god-awful moments. If only they'd cut out some of the utterly pointless CGI eg. Obi-Wan on a lizard, General Grevious (Count Dooku should have inhabited that role, with his death coming much later). Why did the aforementioned General run like the character from a computer game? They could have used that time to make some of the other scenes so much better. Why did Lucas feel it necessary to fill every inch of screen space with SOMETHING, ANYTHING!?! Why did we need to have Ob-Wan's ship covered in little droids - isn't a space battle fun enough? But ultimately, the problem is with the script, and the strange, comatose slowness that all the actors have been told to deliver their lines. Watch the OT and you will see that everyone is trying to get their lines out as fast as possible, and this is what drives the action along. Oh, well, there's my two cents. Best Bit - the death of the Jedi scenes, especially the expression on that bloke from the council's face when the troops turn against him in the snow. Worst bit - 'NOOOO' (spoilt the serious nature of the ending for me).
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Fuck SW and fuc lotr 2. ive had it w/ ALL u PHaggz. u--r so knee-deep in geek-shit it's almost scary. Hackson is a hack, and u have been utterlly brain-washed by lucass. the fact that u cant c how useless this freakuel-trilogy is---Is testament 2 just how knee-deep in geek-shit ur. ive had it w/ u fucrz. sit and waist time over $$$ amounts all u want stools. peter hackson and luass BOTH suc balls. oh wow! geoerge actually made a movie that is not a total emarrassment 2 humanity. good 4 him. and just cuz some of u dix managed 2 find girl-friendz IN SPITE of being sw-fanz..i pity u. cuz u r just basically fucn' yer mom. face it lotr sux.. and sw REALLY sux. so many plot-holes its not even funny. Stick comix and EU boox up yer ass fuck-wadz. the fact that u have 2 look 2 that shit 4 answears is just proof-positive that luca$ FAILED and u r nothing but his simple-minded SLAVEs! eat my ass dix...and rot in hell...shit, i still have 6 beerz left.. bye
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no not the ending of the movie...the checks Lucas sent out to all our 'trusted' Internet reviewers. I've really tried to stay positive about these movies, but this just took the cake. There is a huge laundry list of things that sucked, but here's my short list: every singe line of dialogue, Dooku and Greivous going out like bitches, Anakin killing kids, the whole sequence of Vader's 'birth' (NOOOOOOO!!!!!), light saber duels were way too short (and Clone Wars were better), Yoda not going back and trying to kill the Emperor again, C-3PO's mind wipe, Chewbacca meeting Yoda. I could go on all day. This movie had absolutely no flow, no poetry, no emotion. George doesn't care about these characters, so why should we? THANK GOD THE SERIES HAS ENDED!!! GO MAKE ART FILMS GEORGE AND BE HAPPY!!!
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"Yoda could have gone ANYwhere." If that's the case, what's so wrong with him "throwing a bone to the fans," as you say? I agree that some of the cutesy little shout-outs annoy me because they make the Star Wars galaxy seem a lot smaller than it ought to be (Anakin building Threepio, for example), but an innocent contrivance doesn't seem like something to take up arms over. I await the inevitable post where you explain why it is.
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May 23, 2005 9:33:41 AM CDT
Woodbyrne - stop telling me what i like/don't like for fuck's sa
by banthafodderuk
...... shit, what a wanker- how on earth can you have the front to fucking tell people what we think/like, etc? Fine, you didnt like it. I fucking loved it (so did fucking loads of people if you read their comments- its certainly made a lot of
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i think i's too s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d out too man. Is it just my crappy work mac and shitty broadband, or is this tb taking aaaaages to refresh? Can you start a new one Harry???? (ROTS TB3?)
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May 23, 2005 9:43:19 AM CDT
Note to Lucas: DVD, change "Noooo...!" to "Awww, Shiiiiiiiiit!"
by burnhollywood
And if he doesn't, remember, you can buy that Vader voice changer thingy and do it yourself, before you burn your bootleg copy to DVD-R. Surprise your friends!
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...While he's on top. Believe me, Hollywood just CAN'T WAIT to jam him into some total POS martial arts/action buddy movie as the requisite heavy, then demote him to straight-to-video shit-flicks...just wait and see...
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May 23, 2005 9:52:30 AM CDT
The "NOOO!" moment pretty much summarizes the entire Star Wars s
by htown
It's all about the really cool right smack up against the really silly and cliched. Vader is full of anger and despair. So, when he's crumbling inside the force is crushing everything around him. That was great, IMO. But then comes the scream and it kind of brings you out of the moment.
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Count Dooku should have been the secondary villain instead of Grievious in ROTS. Chris Lee had about 2 minutes of screen time. He survived AOTC for that?
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This is how they should have handled the "Nooooooooooooooooo" scene. Palpatine: "Lord Vader, you killed her in your rage." Vader's mechanical breathing stops. In silence he falls to his knees. Head down, hands in fist he pounds the floor. Everything around him is broken and thrown about in the manifestation of his rage. There could even be a mechanical type screech or roar as metal is twisted and broken. Everything crashes and thens silence. The breathing resumes. Palpatine: "Rise Lord Vader." Vader: "Yes master."
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Imagine a LONE WOLF and CUB type show set in the Outer Rim of the Star Wars universe! A jedi who has to hide the fact that he's a Jedi, but still use his skills to get innocent people out of trouble. That would be awesome!
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First let me say that I didn't like ROTS at all, and saying it was better than TPM and AOTC is like saying that Carrot Top is a better comedian than Gallagher and Jeff Foxworthy if you get my drift. After some thought, here's why the last 3 (or first 3 in proper order) sucked:
1-Too many planet, systems, and everything in else
Remember in Empire, when we first go to the ice planet of Hoth, how much of an event that felt like? Then to the Dagoba system? In the first 3 movies every place you went had a personality, had something special about it. In the more recent movies it was all too much too fast. Let's go to this system, then to that system, no wait, let's make a pit stop over here. Granted the universe/galaxy is enormous, but we can get that on our own. Too often it felt like we were just getting Lucas and his team showing off their CGI with no real purpose beyond that. Of course we need to see Tatooine or Naboo, but the Wookie planet, or where Grevious goes to hide in ROTS, or the 9 billion places from the first two movies. Talk all you want about pacing, if Lucas had limited the locations the story would have improved.
2 - Big Names kill believability
Sam Jackson is not a Jedi. Natalie Portman is not a royal from Naboo. It just doesn't work. Whenever they, or someone else with a big name like Jimmy Smits is on the screen, it compltely kills the movie for me. I give Ewen the only pass cause in the 3 movies he was the ONLY actor to stand out. I realize the original 3 had big names like Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher, but they weren't huge when it first started so we completely bought them. I think if we had relative no names in the roles we would have invested more in the story. Look at LOTR, not saying there were no names, but they weren't above the line name stars, they were known but just enough to spark some interest, not overpower every aspect of the movie.
3- Lucas can't write for shit
Okay, I'm jumping on teh bandwagon, and clearly the "NOOOOOO" was a bad choice. But didn't he write all the movies? Or at least the early ones? (If I'm wrong let me knwo, which I'ms ure you will). But Han Solo had some pretty cool dialogue.. Obi Won had some pretty cool dialogue, so did Lea and even Luke, when he wasn't wining like crazy. What the hell happened? Forget CGI and action scenes, when you have people literally laughing at the converations in the movie you have a problem
There, I'm done
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May 23, 2005 10:07:25 AM CDT
GAY ROOMMATE SAVED: Revenge of the Sith cured my roommate after
by darth philbin
It is true. After 10 hours of grown men crying and holding each other and riding horseback together he just cracked. Not that being gay is a bad thing but I thought I would warn fellow talkbackers just in case they have a roommate that likes these movies. You never know when the One Ring that your buddy keeps going on and on about might turn out to be your Brown Ring. I went into his room over the weekend and insisted that he stop beating off to that Orlando poster that he bought from Wal-Mart and go see Revenge of the Sith. The results were amazing and now he is on the straight and narrow. I was a little scared when Obi-Wan told Anakin that he loved him, but unlike Lord of the Rings where the male characters resolve emotional issues by giving each other backrubs and eating pints of ice cream by the campfire, Star Wars III wraps up the emotion in that scene by SETTING A QUADRUPLE AMPUTEE ON FIRE!!! If THAT ain't a man's movie, I dunno what is. Later that night, I saw him throwing out his ass-less chaps and leather pants. He also took his special edition DVD of Troy to the disc trader and came back with Starship Troopers. I encourage any of you that have a gay roommate and sleep with one eye open to take them to see Revenge of the Sith...oh and if you are not sure if your roommate is gay, the best way to find out is to check to see if their dick tastes like shit.
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Stop bitching over Vader's scream.Fuck.
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When the Emperor got dumped down that shaft in RotJ, we didn't get that "Nooo..." shit, just a nice, furious, nonverbal shriek. Man, they came up with that cool-ass squawk for Obi-Wan's lizard, but no one thought to play with some groovy sound effects for the most wrenching scene in the trilogy...
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The hell with Scarface and Goodfellas...cutting all your best buddy's arms and legs off and leaving him to burn is some flat out COLD SHIT...
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May 23, 2005 10:31:33 AM CDT
"And I will give Gandalf a lap dance" - very good, will you both
by banthafodderuk
and yes, i sniff knickers (which is spelled 'knickers')- doesn't everyone? I don't smoke either (but do drink too much at times, which is just as bad). Will you be wearing your 'mouth of sauron' hat/mask, while you dance for ian mckellen (who is also a pillow biter btw). Dont get me wrong, ive got nothing against gay people at all (ooer!), just didnt like you telling me that i dont like ROTS, when in fact i do like it.
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The best Anakin / Padme scene was when they "look" at each other from across the city. There's no words, only music, and it works great on an emotional level. The Darth Vader transformation scene would have benefitted from this also--instead of an overblown "Nooo!" Vader should have heard what Palpatine said about Padme dying, looked at the floor in silence, then lifted his head and gazed straight forward in complete silence save for the breathing... Plus, the movie should have shown Luke and Leia being conceived, preferably with Padme presenting rearward as she bends over a spacetable.
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... they're ok......so as we're now dragging all the 'funny' stereotypes up, that must mean you weigh a metric tonne, travel everywhere by humvee, are in fact called 'hank' (spelled c.u.n.t), invade every country possible and say the worg 'gee' a lot (can't spell that cos it aint actually a word fatso). What exactly did you win at? the wanking contest you had with your mum (who is actually your sister too), and your 'favourite uncle'? Or did you win by tring to convince me that I dont like ROTS? erm.... nope, I still like it loser.
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May 23, 2005 10:54:37 AM CDT
Wow, I've seen some lame ass complaints about this film but fris
by i dunno
Too many star systems? WTF? And the inevitable LOTR comparison. Well, that film had Sallah, the gay X-Men guy, the chick from all the Aerosmith videos, Rudy, the guy from Carlito's Way, the remake of Psycho and about another dozen films where he plays a slimy prick and Christopher Lee, who holds the record for starring in more films than any other actor, even though his character's death wasn't importent enough to make the cut in that piece of crap. What was I talking about again? Oh yeah, you're a dumbass.
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Good Points. Give me a fucking billion dollar empire and I'll give you a better Star Wars prequel trilogy. With Lucas' deep pockets and 20 years to think about it, its disgusting what he came up with.
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May 23, 2005 10:59:12 AM CDT
Woodbyrne, will you smoke everyone in the room for a fiver?
by banthafodderuk
you need to get that crackpipe blazing, you're running out of crap to spout. (ps- is your mum really sheila the crack whore from 'bumfights' vol 1?)
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May 23, 2005 11:01:01 AM CDT
Of all the things to focus on, what's with the lizard hatred?
by catbarf the 5th
Aw, what's wrong with the Obi-Wan giant lizard? (Great, now I've just set in motion 37 talkbacks about Obi-Wan's "giant lizard"... bring it on...) anyway... it didn't seem out of place at all. Were the Tauntauns stupid too? The Banthas? There have always been weird steeds in these movies, why is this one any different? The CGI was great, the sound design for its cries was great. It owes much to the Ray Harryhausen tradition. Where's the love?
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I sorta dug that.
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When Obi-Wan told Anakin he had failed him, it was so devastating. I loved it, and I loved the film. I went Friday night and to the first showing Sunday, and both times were wonderful. Each time, the crowd clapped at the end, highly satisfied with what they had just seen. I think also overwhelmed. I certainly was. I think the last shot of the Skywalker family looking at the horizon was the most emotional for me. Maybe because of what it meant: both an end and beginning. It bridged the "Star Wars" originals and prequels beautifully and was simply lovely in its simplicity. I loved that shot.
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I think the point of Obi Wan's lizard mount was to draw a comparison between the good and dark side of the force and between Grievous and the Jedi. Grievous is more mechanical than anything; he controls his menchanical escape vehicle. In a way it is more like him. Obi Wan, as a Jedi is obviously in tune with the force, which is a componant of all living things. His riding of the lizard is not one of simple control but one based on a relationship with all living things. When he dismounts, he rubs the neck of the creature hinting at a kind of respect or acknowlegment of it as a creature. It is this sort of attention to detail that actually makes me like Star Wars and also makes me upset when they drop the ball in other key scenes. Now whether the lizard steed works cinematically; well that is up for debate. It didn't bother me.
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After reading many of the posts, it seems the major gripe (besides corny dialogue as usual)with SITH was Anakin's quick jump to the Dark Side.
I guess I'm a minority here because I didn't have a problem with it. I thought he turned on Windu for valid reasons and was appropraitely remorseful afterwards (which some fans thought was dumb). It would have been unrealistic to me if he immediately morphed into Lou Ferrigno the minute he chopped Mace's hand off.
Also, the Emperor tells him the Jedi are going to kill him after what he's done, so what choice does he have...tell Yoda he's sorry?
I felt it was similar to the mild mannered guy who goes postal after thirty years of being a stellar employee. Anakin just had a really shitty day at the office and lost it. -
May 23, 2005 11:16:22 AM CDT
I think I read in an interview that George said the series is an
by abcdefz1
Pretty sure I read that somewhere.
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The only thing cooler than the way Boga looked and ran is the way Boga sounded; it was nice to have a "cool animal noise" to parallel the Tauntauns. There was a weak CGI moment for me when Obi Wan rides up to the clone commander after whacking grievous and the clone returns his saber, but no big deal there. Hey, did anyone else notice that when Grievous ignites his four sabers that his arms make a simultaneous pivot clockwise, and that the arms and sabers formed a perfect swastika?
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I don't buy the turn to the dark side. He yells to Windu (before he is thrown out the windo)that the Emperor must stand trial. At that moment, he recognizes that the emperor is in the wrong, and to be honest Anakin's position is not really that wrong--in fact it is the backbone of most democracies--the right to a fair trial. Windu was in the wrong. He was playing judge and executioner. The Emperor tosses Windu and then turns to Anakin who now gets on his knees and swears allegience to the dark side? Why did this happen? Anakin goes from turning the emperor in, to believing that there should be on trial to swearing his allegience? I missed something--perhaps because I have only seen it once.
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May 23, 2005 11:24:27 AM CDT
Woodbyrne - how on earth can you fit your mum in the back of a h
by banthafodderuk
We use the letter u in words, because we can, probably because we invented the languuuuuuuuage lardarse. You almost wiped out all the indigenous population of America, which is why you have to use someone else's language. Having a queen is a bit better than having an inbred hillbilly president WHO STILL WEARS FUCKING VILLAGE PEOPLE COWBOY HATS YOU TWAT (and we all still love ROTS to bits- well, at least i do, which is all that matters hank). do you still use the term 'Booo Yaaa!' over there? fuck.
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May 23, 2005 11:25:11 AM CDT
Anakin's change to the dark side makes perfect sense...
by atticus finch
if you've been paying attention to the story since Episode I.
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"It is Windu who suggests that the Chancellor should be removed and the Council must take over for the transition period. The wise Yoda doesn
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Seriously, because the Revenge of the Shit... sorry, Sith... film I saw was horribly structured, horribly written, horribly directed and, for the most part, horribly acted. In fact, it might've been the worst film I ever seen.
So, can someone please tell me what theatre is playing the movie all you guys are praising? I'd really like to see it. -
Really enjoyed ROTS overall. Probably nearly as good as ROTJ.
However...thought the Anakin/Vader transformation at the end was rushed. Would have liked to have seen the how and why of the iconic Darth Vader suit. Must concur with most of the posters that the Vader "Nooooo!" was retarded. Also thought that Palpatine's post-Windu speech to Anakin was wildly over-acted! All in all though....an
8.5 out of 10. Well done George. -
No, we saw a different film. You got the shitty one. The one you saw was so horrible; I wouldn't even bother posting on this site about it. Now that you have seen that one, you will never be allowed to see the good one. It is a personal conspiracy against you. We would like to discuss the real film now. The one you will never see. It would be best if you shut your computer off now.
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and kind of sad. Come on, no one can really hate all the duels in this...If you do, you are just a hater for hater's sake...Lucus nailed this thing!
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It's like saying the dianoga ruined Episode IV because it was superfluous. Who the fuck cares? It was cool.
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because if they truly were then lucas would have tried to insert some implied suspense, such as not tipping us off to palpy being sidious in E1, luke and leia being brother and sister and vader being anakin. if he could write worth a damn he could have gotten pretty creatie with all of those elements and treated us to a pretty interesting tail instead of the paint by numbers mind numbing horse crapped he's been peddling as star wars the past three years.
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I think it will be cool to watch the movies in numerical order, however, when i have kids of my own, I will show them the OT first and then the PT. I think it has much more of an emotional impact this way.
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To answer Ingeld's question:
Anakin only said he wanted the Emperor to stand trial because he was trying to buy some time. He knew Palp was his only chance of saving his wife (I thought he even yelled to Mace that he needed him). Also, he knows how the Jedi deal with someone that is too dangerous and that he wouldn't be forgiven for helping axe Mr.Windu. The emperor even stated this and that's why he joins him and starts mowing down kiddies (something that's not new to him).
And for the guy who thinks the movie is crap because of acting, directing, etc.; that's like saying "Sinbad" movies suck for the same reasons...they're escapism, nothing more. -
The novelization of ROTS explains the concept of "becoming one" with the force better than the movie. At the end of the film, Yoda tells Obi Wan that Qui Gon has returned from the netherworld to teach them about "becoming one" and achieving a sort of immortality. In the book, Yoda actually does have a sit-down with a phantasm version of Qui Gon. So that's why Yoda and Obi Wan dissolved when they die in ANH and ROTJ--they learned to "become one." Qui Gon didn't dissolve in TPM because, perhaps, he hadn't quite gotten it until after he died. Then he came back. Darth Vader doesn't dissolve because not only did he fail to learn to "become one," which is the promise of immortality that Sidious promised him, but he's also a dickweed.
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May 23, 2005 12:10:00 PM CDT
Watched ROTJ last night: Vader watching Luke get electrocuted pa
by george newman
In ROTS, Vader believed Palpatine to be right, so he defended him from Mace. In ROTJ, Vader was no longer so sure in his trust of the emperor. It was a fascinating 1,000,000th viewing. PS- ROTJ definitely has the best space battles of all the films. So thrilling.
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May 23, 2005 12:27:17 PM CDT
Thought this was great...I enjoy clones more now that the whole
by braine
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My favorite line was when Obi Wan turns to Senator Organa and says, "There's another old saying Senator...Don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'!"
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May 23, 2005 12:36:55 PM CDT
Just to mention some poor editing/discontinuity that was in the
by george newman
Anakin choking Obi Wan, holding Obi's wrist, and pressing the saber towards Obi wan's face:(this can be viewed in the Hero Falls video and the first teaser) First shot: anakin choking Obi; CUT to Obi holding ANAKIN's saber; CUT to anakin, and in shot is Obi's hand holding OBI's saber; CUT to a pulled back shot revealing both guys and Obi holding ANAKIN's saber again.?! You could call this nitpicking but good grief, the lightsabers are featured largely in these shots. It doesn't make sense how they would even swap sabers between different takes! This is no simple make-up issue either. Extremely goofy.
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Having first read EIII the book, I was expecting to see a bunch of stuff that I guess was left on the editing floor, like...
1) beheading of Kit Fisto
2) Qui Gon talking to Yoda in a vision at the end
3) Yoda landing on Dagobah to begin his exile
4) Obi Wan being orally serviced by Padme -
Only three appearances by Jar Jar (and no lines thank the gods!). And the Millennium Falcon was in it!!!!
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more Lethal Weapon
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I just got out of my annual performace appraisal, and all we talked about was ROTS (What that says about my work, we'll leave for another day). Anyhoo, we both brought up the fateful venom-spew that was "I HATE you" that Anakin flung toward Obi Wan. We both agreed that its the most poignant part of ANY of the six SW films. The delivery of that STILL gives me goosebumps, and a sense of dread 5 days and nights later.
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...see this link...http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=ToTo247 .....read his entry on the 10th...his last entry was on the 12th...the day he was murdered. The murderer was caught because of this entry.
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Sorry, just wanted to use my first official post to the site to point out how it is not only sad but amusing when people post this at the beginning of a talkback. LOL!! Anyway, back to ROTS goodness...
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Why in the hell would Lucas have the Yoda and Obi Wan "discuss" Qui's return at the end, and not actually show him?! Could Liam Neeson not fit it in his schedule or something?
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May 23, 2005 2:02:52 PM CDT
No one can defend Gen. Grievous. Admiral Piett was cooler than a
by chickychow
And leave it to Lucas to make coughing a character trait.
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My husband and I saw the first Star Wars movie in middle school and it was so "amazing". He saw it over and over. Those first three were the best. These last three have been bad. After hearing all the hoopla of how this last one was better than the last two, I was very disappointed. I was bored thru part of it. The actors are still bad, I don't feel for them like I felt for Luke and Leah. The lazers were so bright white that it hurt my eyes, couldn't see the fighting good. Not amazing at all.
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May 23, 2005 2:10:12 PM CDT
Now that Star Wars is over, bring on the WILLOW prequel trilogy!
by liberty valance
Which chronicles how Burglekutt became such a fucking asshole.
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So I wrote a song about it. Enjoy!
http://www.hotwafflesmusic.com/georgelucasrapedourchildhood.mp3 -
I agree that it would have been cool to see Liam Neeson as Qui Gon at the end, as a phantasm, or at least hear his voice. Maybe he could have apologized to Yoda: "I'm sorry, master, I thought he was the chosen one, but chosen to bring balance to the force, not f*ck sh*t up."
Darth's "Nooo" sucked. It did, but it's okay, I'll get over it. Anakin's "I hate you" to Obi Wan was not poignant, but rather weak. If my former best friend / mentor had just lopped off my legs and left me to DIE an almost CERTAIN DEATH by BURNING, I could think of a few more choice words to say. The "I hate you" was already implied--they just got done fighting to the death, fer chrissakes. I agree with the comment a couple entries about about Maul, Dooku and Grievous all being introduced simply to have bad guys in each movie, but each is dispatched far too easily, when the true cool villain, Palpatine, lurks in the shadows and is not revealed until midway EIII, even though we know all along who it is and what will come of him. In other words, Maul, Dookie and Grievous had to be introduced or the good guys wouldn't have had anyone to fight until Palpatine reveals himself in EIII. But all of them are cool characters. One thing I missed in EIII is that no alien characters utter the word, "poodoo." I suspect that General Grievous is really Sebulba in armor. -
can we say, TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, not to mention contradictory to the OT? The ability to see these force apparitions apparently has to be taught. Well, ahem, Luke was never taught how to see Obi-Wan.
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This film was a fantastic addition to the Star Wars experience, regardless of what the small group of five naysayers on the planet may think. I totally agree with Kevin Smith:
"This is the "Star Wars" prequel the haters have been bitching for since "Menace" came out, and if they don't cop to that when they finally see it, they're lying." -
P.S.- Up the haters' asses with a red hot lightsaber, lol
jk -
Since when does this guy's opinion matter? He's a worse director than Lucas!! Why are there so many haters? Do you think we want to hate these films? We hate them because they SUCK!
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May 23, 2005 3:02:27 PM CDT
"oh star wars nothing but star wars!"--bill murray sings star wa
by robabatis
deal with it star wars fucking rocks the house no matter how many mistakes are made and no matter how different you think it should be. you didnt fucking invent this saga. you have no say. just enjoy obi wan kicking anakins ass! word!
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Well, i loved it. Even though some dialogue came across as a bit cringe worthy im hoping that it will seem better after repeat viewings. Having waited my whole life to see this i came away sad that i may never see a new star wars. I think that although I LOVED some parts of the film. Im left... just wishing that the prequels had been better. That the kiddified nonscence had been cut out the 1st two and the story had been more like the almost mythic story of the 1st three. Oh well, having said that, the 1st 20 min were amazing. The banter between ob1 and anakin just made it feel like star wars again. And i thought the end really tied this to episide IV in a way that made scenes like ob1 dying make more sense. Even though you knew what was coming you still wanted anakin to do the right thing. And when you see the mask come down.....you feel how he finally realises how trapped he has become.
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Tell me you are joking, please. As much as i LOVE SW, Lucas is one of the worst directors of our time. And yes, you haters do so love to hate on this film, hence the reason you hardcore haters have attempted to hate this movie from it's initial conception. Such ignorant hatred.... a jedi craves not these things...
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Hate something worth all the hatred... like 'Monster-In-Law' or 'Bewitched' or something...
(In my best Palpatine impersonation:) Leave us... -
his opinion means jack squat
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The movie wasn't great but it delivered more Star Wars moments than the last 2 combined. Little things like when Anakin first notices Obi Wan standing on the ramp before their duel. That gave me chills. When Padme named the babies--same thing. The scene leading up to mace Windu's attempted arrest of Palpatine. Lots of good stuff here. Anyone who believes these prequels are full of more immature idiocy abnd slapstick and silliness than the original trilogy are dumb or blind to what they've scene. All six films have slapstick, childish moments, vague story-telling, and moments of lousy acting. Mark Hamil never gave as good a performance as Hayden did in SHATTERED GLASS. He's a good actor but Lucas doesn't care. It's spectacle to him, always has been. I'm not being an apologist nor dismissing criticisms or "haters." I just think you can miss the bigger picture when trying to view these new movies as the 8 year old you once were and never will be again. It's just a big fucking silly story. Certain episodes are better than others but so be it. 1 &2 could and should have been one movie. But it's not like they damaged anything much, if at all. As for Anakin turning to Darth I think you can buy his pre-Darth character for one simple fact: the Vader we knew is post-lava burning maiming shit. Why can he not go from pissy, selfish little punk with many influences to badass Darth vader from 4-6?? Wouldn't the maiming of his body and the pain and anger of seeing his best friend do it to him twist his shit all up?? make him the monster he was?? It is concievable that that is what the character is. Black suited Vader is NOT the Anakin we saw in 2 and most of 3. He is a different character who changed. Granted, perhaps we should have seen some of that much like we have to infer the stuff about Leia's mother and whatnot. That's bad storytelling. The audience shouldn't have to draw those sorts of conclusions. However, if you're a SW fan and know the material it can be done.
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LANYARD: A cord that wraps around your wrist and attaches to a knife/pistol/LIGHT SABER. I'll have to count how many times light sabers were dropped and then picked up again (or not). WEAPONS RETENTION is a fundamental skill that even Master Yoda has failed to learn.
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but I'm sure that Kevin Smith would have the same thing to say concerning your opinion, that is if you were important enough in society to actually have an opinion that mattered... but we all digress, enough about Smith, he ain't the topic we should be on anyhoo.
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I don't get how in the hell Lucas could ravage the other two so badly and yet make this one so excellent... I just don't see how...
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Great movie, but I can't believe she named the boy Luke. I mean, come on, "Luke Skywalker"?!? The kid is going to get so teased.
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Yeah, the taunting will be so bad it drives him to have this strange sexual desire to mount someone who oddly resembles a relative... mmm, incest......
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May 23, 2005 3:49:19 PM CDT
For those of you who are afraid "Star Wars" will die with you, I
by 007-11
I work in a church with a day school operating in it and all I heard this morning was hundreds of little voices chattering about Anakin and Obi Won.
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May 23, 2005 3:52:27 PM CDT
Missed Opportunity - Big Time - things don't work and what it co
by dagan
Big time. The first two films were absolute crap - worse than stuff like Van Helsing even, where at least the characters act like they're not all robots. Episode III was far, far better, and by itself, a GOOD movie, I think. Definitely better than most popcorn films these days, where the Prequels were actually even worse than the average popcorn films these days. But Episode III is not close to the Original Trilogy, and when taken in context fo the Star Wars saga as a whole, it becomes mighty frustrating. Lucas did not mesh his two trilogies very well at all, for dozens of reasons. Just a few - Obi Wan doesn't remember the droids? Yeah, right. The Leia's Mother debacle? Come on - the fanboy "excuses" are weak and just trying to patch up bad storytelling. How about Chebacca? He's obviously derisive of Obi Wan in Episode IV("You said it, Chewy - Where did you dig up that old fossil?"), which doesn't match AT ALL from what we see in Episode III - Chewbacca interacts with the Jedi and seems reverential of Yoda. Twenty years later, after the purging of the Jedi, Chewie runs into one of the last two Jedi IN EXISTENCE, and not only does he not seem to care in the slightest at this revelation, but he's even DISMISSIVE of the Jedi's help. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fit. Chewie would be wowed at the discovery of a living Jedi and respectful of his power and advice, as we see in Episode III, but he's not. It doesn't fit at all - Once again, George would rather throw out a senseless fanboy bone to show Chebacca in Episode III than actually sit down and think his story through to make it all make sense. And what about "Obi Wan once thought as you do?" - the whole line of Obi Wan Kenobi thinking he could turn Anakin back, that there was still good in him, etc. It's not in these new movies at all. Obi Wan never tries to reach Anakin or turn him back. Yoda says they have to kill him and he doesn't even protest, he only says he doesn't want to be the one who does it? The Original Trilogy clearly implies that Obi Wan tried to reach him and couldn't. Then, it makes it more powerful when Luke, FAMILY, is the only thing that can. He completely dropped that line in this, at the detriment to the story. And what about the whole line of Imperial Racism? Originally, they were supposed to be like the Nazis - racists. All the Empire is full of white, male, human beings. No other species. They even have lines like "Where are you taking this... thing?" and other elements of racist sentiment from the Empire. It was a clear and conscious choice - we even know from Lucas that the Wookie's had been enslaved by the Empire as inferior, etc. NOT A SINGLE INDICATION OF THIS IS EVEN HINTED AT IN THE PREQUELS - it's a major component of what the Empire "is" in the Original Trilogy, but not even a hint in the new one. "For over a thousand generations the Jedi were the Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Old Republic". Now "A Thousand Generations has turned into "A Thousand years" - he can't even get stuff like that right! There are many more examples, and it's so maddening because it's so damn lazy. He had the Original Trilogies he could write the new ones too - it's EASY.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You could go on for pages and pages about what "could have been, so just the broad strokes. He should have not wasted two whole films and half the third one(wasted Grevious subplot) on all the meaningless crap. These entire three films should've been about two things - Anakin's fall and the Emperor's rise. The Emperor's rise could be complex and good without having to use up so much in wasted screentime with lackluster scenes. A clone army? Damn, it takes an ENTIRE FILM to figure that out? What wasted real estate? Episode I should have started with an older, but amazingly force-senstive Anakin. Obi Wan should have started to train him(there is no "Qui Gonn" - the Original Trilogy says explicitly that Yoda trained Obi Wan and Obi Wan trained Anakin - Qui Gonn was an unncecessary addition, and thus, wasted screen real estate for the real story. You could have THREE MOVIES to build up a relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin that really WAS "like brothers". Instead, we get virtually no Anakin/Obi Wan interaction in Episode I because Anakin's a kid being trained by somebody else. They are together and the very beginning and very end of Episode II, and the very beginning of Episode III, and THAT IT before "The Duel". Their relationship is so tenuous and unconvincing that Lucas has to resort to having Obi Wan SAY how much "like brothers" they are so we'll buy it. They even have a scene, their last "before the Duel" where Obi Wan clumsily sums up how he feels about Anakin WITH WORDS. Show, don't tell, George. Bad storytelling. If he had truly built up a strong relationship with them over the course of three films the final Duel could have been DEVASTATING, instead of merely relying on our knowledge of the Original Trilogy to give it any real sense of power. The same for Anakin and Padme. Their relationship was so weak that it had almost no power. Again, build that up over the course of three films and make it work like it did in another popular film, such as Titanic(which had its flaws in the love story, but it obviously worked as a love story in one film far better than this trilogy did in three films!). If that relationship had seemed "real", if Lucas could care enough about the human beings in the story enough to work on that instead of only worrying about his precious CG, then that combined with a real relationship developed over three films with Obi Wan could have been shatteringly powerful at the end. The Anakin story was a 70-mile per hour fastball down the middle of the plate waist high to Mark McGwire - it should have been out of the park - not a dry eye in the house, no matter how big a Star Wars fan you were. Instead, at best, Lucas whiffed completely on the first two movies and maybe grounded out to short-stop on this one. Pathetic.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Anakin should have turned to the Dark Side at the end of Episode II, and Episode III should have been all about him "Hunting down and destroying" the Jedi Knights, along with Obi Wan trying and failing to reach "the Good in him". This would set up Luke actually achieving that later to be FAR more powerful than it already is. And how cool would it have been to see the Emperor actually training Darth Vader in the ways of the Dark Side, as Yoda trains Luke on Dagobah? Some moments of that? He makes him do bad things from the start, such as Force choke real, living things for training - "what's wrong? it's only a Wookie"? These scenes could be unbelievably cool, make Vader seem like a real Apprentice to Sidious, and set up the Wookie enslavement and the Imperial racist/Nazi stuff up that is in the Original Trilogy quite nicely. And what's up with Obi Wan letting Anakin burn and suffer before him at the end? That's out of character for two reasons - one, he wouldn't let his friend, or anybody for that matter, suffer needlessly like that, and two, he would need to make sure Vader was actually dead. Now he's just given the Galaxy twenty years of a pissed off, bionic, Sith maniac. Nice going, Obi Wan. Lazy storytelling, George. That should have been very chaotic - he slices him, Anakin starts to burn, the whole place is coming down around them and the Imperial troops are arriving on the planet - Obi Wan has to flee and save Padme, just getting away by the skin of his teeth. It makes more story sense and would also be another exciting scene. I could go on and on and on about how big of a missed opportunity this film was, and in how many ways it doesn't fit with the Original Trilogy very well, which makes it even more frustrating - the film, on its own, is GOOD, though heavily flawed. But it becomes a frustratingly collasal missed opportunity whenever you put it in context of the Star Wars saga as a whole.
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They're just discussing their next move. Chewie knows who obi-wan is, the discussion probably goes. My old friend we need your help once more and Chewie obliges him. Why would chewie say, I know him?! Who cares. Chewie got Han another job, that's the important thing. Chewie knows that risk of his line of work. He's up for the challenge. I think we saw two different movies, because I think ROTS & ANH connect very well. So much so, that after I got home from seeing ROTS. I wanted to see ANH. Obi-Wan lies to Luke, to encourage him. How could he tell Luke the truth? He wants Luke to feel like he was loved by his Father.
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Very cohesive and well thought out, one of the better I've read on these talkbacks.
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The more you discuss seriously the "issues" raised in this film the more George Lucas Inc. will think he's done something even remotely admirable here and the more films he will write and direct. Please, I beg you: stop the madness. The film is absoute garbage, and quite obviously so. Star Wars ended with Return of the Jedi, pure and simple.
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May 23, 2005 4:08:05 PM CDT
How could obiwan help someone who didn't want to be helped, some
by orionsangels
After someone is trying to murder you and they burn alive and they're barely living. You don't think, hmm i'll help him, bring aboard my ship. Hmm, maybe he'll try and kill me again. Yeah smart, come on dude. Anakin chose his path. No one could help him.
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May 23, 2005 4:10:58 PM CDT
Dagan's is one the more lamer reviews i've read. It's one of tho
by orionsangels
Well you didn't it and you didn't really like the film, so deal with it. Thank God I liked it and I enjoy being a SW fan.
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May 23, 2005 4:14:10 PM CDT
Woodbyrne, I didn't think all the acting suck. there was more go
by orionsangels
Thankfully at the right moments to, Palpatine was disturbing when he yells NO! NO! NO! NO! at mace, wtf was that? I love stuff like that. It just had a lot a fucked up moments like that, even the bad lines are fun to say. Star Wars is a lot a fun. It's fun to exam it.
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In regards to what one post said about the villians being useless in the prequals, I have to disagree. One of the main things I have always loved about Star Wars are the "sub" villians in each film. In A New Hope we really didn't need a subvillian because Vader had just been introduced, however, Empire gave us Boba Fett and Jedi gave us Jabba. Awesome villians. Phantom gave us Maul and Sith gave us Grevious. The sub villians really didn't do it for me in Clones though. I don't think Jango Fett was needed, nor was the whole backstory on Bobba. Bobba's mystery is (was) what was cool about him. Dooku was not that great in my opinion either. While the argument could be made that none of these sub villians are neccesary, they do help move the story along and provide for great visuals.
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John Williams' score kicked serious tushie. And Aunt Beru was hot.
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After seeing ROTS and enjoying it, I've been tempted to go back and watch TPM to see if they are any seeds George planted that reached fruition in ROTS. I don't hate TPM but I'm still not crazy about watching it (mostly a time issue) so I'm hoping some fanboys hear might help me out. What would you say are the signs in TPM that hint at Anakin's turn to the dark side? The only one I remember is Sentator Palpatine commenting how he's going to keep a close eye on Anakin or something of the sort.
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... is the first one on here that talked about the films flaws in ways that made me think and even agree with in places. The haters are bile-dribbling idiots but this post has excellent points. Reading through the post I could imagine a "remaking" in 20 or 30 years and part of me is hoping that happens.
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i LOVED the opening music after the crawl. those slow, booming, martial drums heralding what we all know, will soon be doom. than the cueing of the heroic theme in a slower metre; it reminded my of a Kurosawa film almost (but, with, you know, spaceships). i was getting choked up almost right away. by the end i was absolutely beside myself with emotion. i felt like, "geez, something must be wrong with me" until my brother saw it and had the same reaction. basically, all of my friends who have seen it have been stunned. TPM and AOTC were major disappointments, as most people agree, but ROTS was a goddamn masterpiece. haters can hate all they want, but how much you want to bet that most of them have already seen it at least 2 or 3 times, bought all the new action figures, and have the DVD on order? seriously.
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This film was superb. And what's more, the much criticised rapid turn has, in my opinion been missinterpreted. Anakin does not actually turn to the Dark side at this juncture, you can see the regret in his eyes, the confusion, as he kneels before Sidious. Christensen can barely bring himself to look at his new master. He realises that, in light of what he has done, he must kneel. But, and this is critical, he has not yet accepted the Dark Side as his Creed. This occurs ONLY in the final confrontation scene between him, Padme and Obi Wan. In this scene, Anakin (as portrayed by Christensen) truley seems to BELIEVE in the non-sense that he is spouting. He has begun to reject the Jedi code (he rejected the jedi themselves long before), and embrace his new principles. Rather than idly speculating, Anakin now lays down his imperialistic philosophy in declarative appeals to Padme. In short, there is something slightly "off" about Anakin in this scene, he is unhinged, his eyes are all violence and fury, but also vacant (and I mean that as a compliment to his acting skills).
It is here that Anakin becomes Darth Vader. Finally losing his regret and with it his humanity. Interestingly, when he kills the kids and the seperatists he wears his hood. Not a necessary thing to do given that they all recognise him anyway. I truly believe he is wearing his hood because during these scenes his is truley ashamed of his actions. He is hiding behind a physical barrier of sorts. The last vestiges of his former self. Then, finally, staring into the fires of hell with a tear in his eye, he accepts that all is lost. It is here, in this small and subtle scene that Darth Vader is finally born. And it is in the next scene that he is finally revealed.
Have I read too much into this? I dunno. I've seen the film twice now and I truly believe that the finale is both written and acted to portray a slightly more gradual descent.
Kneeling before Sidious, Anakin is all sorrow and regret. Standing before Padme and Obi Wan, he is Darth Vader.
I say: Homerun Lucas! This film was great. A lot more challenging than really ANY of the other movies. However it certainly was not improved by the ridiculous NOOOOOO scream, and Padme's lack of will as cause of death.
I am never the less convinced that the complex tragedy presented in this exciting and astonishingly beautiful film renders it a modern classic. Go back and watch it again, and keep doing it until you haters have lost the will to hate it anymore. Then, and only then will you realise what a really, really, good film Georgy actually made (whether he meant to or not).
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by the way, Dagen makes some very good points. Plotholes the size of Lake Michigan. Its a shame that we even have to have these discussions.
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Tarantino can barely make a film without being given some sort of major award which instantly goes to show us that awards are pretty meaningless, hell, a former animator with my company has two emmy's, and trust me, no one cares. 90% of all awards mean exactly dick. And no the acting wasn't "bad", to say that is an ignorant statement which would mean EVERY actor in the film was terrible. The film had both convincing and nonconvincing actors performing in it... news flash- every film does. Every film.
"Other than for sound, special effects, and the Razzie." well, first off, I don't know what the hell a "Razzie" is, that's not actually a term thrown around in our industry that I'm aware of, lol, but the sound and "Special effects" were a MAJOR player in the creation of the film. If it weren't for them there would be no episode 3, so how can you just blow them off as if they were so insignificant. John Dykstra would probably think you a fool. And last but not least, name 3 or 4 dozen things that sucked about it and I'll counter you with 30 or 40 dozen things that I loved about it. Man, the hate just goes on and on... I really encourage some of the people posting to obtain some sort of education concerning the filmmaking and storytelling process befor they give us quality, well thought-through observations such as "It was so lame!", "It was fuckin' dumb!!", and the rising classic, "It sucked!". I hate to break it to you haters, but no movie has been or will ever be perfectly crafted. As much as I LOVED this film, it does have it's flaws... ALL FILMS DO!! Stop nitpicking it to death for christ sakes. -
Wasn't it Samuel Taylor Coleridge who described invoking "willing suspension of disbelief"? Yeesh! Get a grip!!
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Love the film but Anakins turn just happened too quickly. I guess he had to turn somtime. Saw it twice already and I still love it.
Oh and I am one of the few who liked TPM. Some dialog made me cringe but seeing Jedi kick but in the opening scene for the first time in a movie was just too cool. -
May 23, 2005 4:56:40 PM CDT
Darth Pookie, ejcarter9, Oriionsangels and Funkymonkey - about m
by dagan
To the first two, I appreciate your comments, and want to stress that I DID like Revenge of the Sith and have seen it three times - each time getting a bit better. But that's when looking at it as its own, individual movie - self-contained. In that respect, it still has some large flaws, but is still a very good summer action spectacle film, in my opinion - far richer and more interesting than what you usually get from these films. Though I do think the first two prequels were far worse than the average summer action films for many reasons, but that's not what this talkback is about. However, when looked at in context of the Star Wars Saga, there is much to be very concerned about - many things just don't add up very well, or require internet fanboy justifications to try and patch them together and "make it work". Worse, when you logically think about what this story was and could have been if done by a better writer/director, it is almost maddeningly frustrating. This movie should have been one of the great films of all time, Shakespearean in scope and power - that's how "good" the bones of the Anakin Skywalker story is. Lucas completely dropped the ball on what it could have been. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Orionsangles - In terms of Chewbacca - think about him on the Death Star, putting his hands on his hips and saying something negative about Obi Wan, who was trying to help them. Han responded "Boy, you said it, Chewie. Where did you dig up that Old Fossil?" This just doesn't seem like the Chewie that we saw in Episode III, who was obviously aware of the Jedi and their power, and was clearly reverential. They're in a bind in Episode IV and he's completely dismissing Kenobi all of a sudden? It doesn't make any sense - he'd be more likely to be saying "Han, listen to this guy - these Jedis are badass and he's one of the only surviving ones in the Galaxy!" Why didn't he pipe up when Han is making fun of Luke and the Force while Chewie's over there playing chess? No "Wait a second, Han, I've seen what these Jedi can do - it's no joke". It just doesn't make sense that Chewie would be present for the Jedi purge and then be so flippant and dismissive when encountering one of the last surviving Jedi tweny years later. Why do you defend something that so obviously fits like a square peg in a round hole? There are many other examples of this - Lucas obviously not bothering to just think his story through. In this case, the bone thrown to the fanboys was more important that narrative cohesion............................ As for trying to turn Anakin. I don't mean post-Duel. I mean pre-Duel. Make Anakin fall at the end of Episode II, start the Jedi purge, and have Obi Wan spend the movie desperately trying to stop it and trying, and failing, to "reach" his friend before they have to fight it out. He fails, they fight, Obi Wan wins. Then barely gets away, chaotically, so it makes sense that he would leave Anakin alive to suffer and possibly come back. The Original Trilogy implies that "Obi Wan once thought as you do", that Vader could be turned back - hell, it doesn't just imply it, it SAYS it. But there's no indication of this in the Prequels. And it's too bad, because Obi Wan trying and failing to the point where he gives up on Vader would make Luke's success in reaching him that much more powerful later. A dropped ball by Lucas which also doesn't match something explicitly said in the Originals. Lazy. And as far as me saying "what I thought would be better" which you seem to despise, I think that's in our right - what else is discussion about? This story could've been so much better than it was, and the Original Trilogy is already there pointing the way to show you how. Lucas ignored it and made this great story into a subpar thing. I DID like Revenge of the Sith, flawed as it was, and I am a HUGE fan of Star Wars. But I will not just accept whatever comes out with that name as being "good" when it is not. The Original Trilogy is a masterpiece, and laid the groundwork for a Prequel Story that could've been even better. It wasn't. Not even close. And I'm not just saying that, but I'm saying why I think so. I think that's worthy in a Talkback, whether you can stand hearing somebody go over negative aspects of what you so unquestionably follow or not.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Funkymonkey...........While I agree Anakin's turn wasn't "abrupt" so much, there are some big problems with it. He turns to the Dark Side in order to save Padme. Sidious gets him to KILL A MASTER JEDI so Anakin can get the "secret" to save his wife. Then, as soon as he does this and pledges allegiance, when he's still quite obviously conflicted about things, the first thing his new Master does is tell him, "Oh yeah, by the way, that whole "save people from death thing? I can't really do that anyway. Glad to have you aboard, though. Hey, why don't you go kill some little kids now?" - And he DOES IT!!! Like you said, he's not "Vader" fully until the Duel, but he goes and kills kids for a guy who just admitted he'd been lying to him the whole time and can't help him afterall? Weak. Just, weak. It could have worked, but it would've had to have been handled better as a story. And that's another missed opportunity - killing innocent younglings is obvioulsy the first truly EVIL thing Anakin does. Even helping Kill Mace could be looked at or rationalized as "self-defense" or something. But the kids? And Lucas races through that moment like it's nothing - he throws it away. It's a fifteen-second scene, and it should've been a minute or so. This is a BIG MOMENT - make it so. Is he going to really do it? Show the kids go up and grab his hand and try to have him lead them to safety, but he doesn't budge - a shot of his dark, ashamed face... is he gonna do it? The kids realize there's something wrong, the recoil... Anakin can't do it, he starts to walk out, but stop... ignites his saber and turns around, then advances on the kids... Cut to the next scene. Make something so horrible, a BIG MOMENT instead of just throwing it away like Lucas does. This is Vader's first truly Evil act - let's get into it, damn. But that would require GOOD storytelling, and Lucas doesn't seem to care much about that anymore. There may not have been enough CG opportunities in that room to please him... Who knows?
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i cant believe ive been reading this utter shit for over an hour now. i sadly agree with this worthess piece of shit person that this movie is good, but im not sure that i would agree about much else. being somewhat a consevative (financially) myself i cant believe how truly stupid this person is. he claims religion plays no role in his beliefs yet he uses terms such as "immoral" and even uses the bible mockingly in a tribute to W. i guess it is our fault as a species that we have some people like him. has he ever taken a philosophy class? did he even graduate from highschool? doesnt he know that there is no objective morality? he clearly has no respect for people such as alan turning, the pivotal person in deciphering the enigma code that the germans used in ww2. he was a forefather of the computer and responsible for saving thousands of lives. yet do to being banished and discredited for his homosexuality he eventually committed suicide, as this powermetal character would have it. it was a sad fate that this GREAT man had. for all we know powerman owes his existance to this wonderful human being and homosexual. people like powermetal have no place in an intelligent and peaceful world. he clearly only likes the movie because he sees his own evil mirrored in it. and on that note, rots kicks ass, word to your brother! (cause i rampaged his ass last night)
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sreaming an anguished, "Noooo!" is an unrealistic response after waking up in a mechanical life support suit your best friend put you in, and being told that you killed your wife & child. It should've been a more emotionally authentic response like, "This is terribly disconcerting, how did this all happen?" Or maybe something "badass" or "pimp" like, "She was a traitor and she died a traitor's death."
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But isn't Anakin's impetuosness one of his many character flaws? I don't see what the argument over his turn is. He was an impatient little guy, and always looked for the quick-fix. Instead of crack, he went to the Dark Side.
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The only dicussion which will have an impact on whether Luca$ makes more films is the one his accounts has with the accountants from 20th century fox. What we say here is for own amusement. The only thing that really talks in the movie BUSINESS is money. After all movie companies are run by Sith lords.
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Why in AOTC when Anakin kills all the Tuscans does Yoda hear Luke screaming NOOOoooooo from ESB?
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Where'd this conversation spawn from? Chewie never met Obi-Wan so there's no confusion in how they react in Episode 4.
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Yoda doesn't hear Luke screaming he hears Qui-Gon.
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Vader should have Force-choked the Emperor for a bit after hearing of Padme's death. That would have a) set-up Vader's position as the most powerful Sith entity in the galaxy and b) been completely, utterly badass. Then Emperor could have shocked him or something, developing a nice push-pull that would carry into their relationship in the OT, especially in Jedi.
God, we all should have tied Lucas down and wrote this fucking thing for him, I swear. -
Did you actually read what I wrote about Chewie and Obi Wan? I never claimed they had "met" in any way. What I was talking about was how Chewie is shown in Episode III to be around the Jedi(Yoda), who display remarkable powers in many ways while helping them defend their homeland. He is absolutely reverential to Yoda - he KNOWS what Jedi are and what they can do. And he is PRESENT during the purge of the Jedi - he witnessing the Empire turning on the Jedi, and lives through the wiping out of all the Jedi in the Galaxy(excpet, apparently, two). So when he encounters a Jedi again in Episode IV he doesn't bat an eyelash at one of the last remaining Jedi coming out of hiding? He says derisive things about him to Han, "the old fossil" type stuff, instead of telling Han "Hey, man, we should listen to these Jedi, I know what they can do." No. He acts like he has no experience with Jedi and acts like Obi Wan is just a crazy old bat. He doesn't even say anything when Han is making fun of the Force - "Uh, Han, I've seen these Jedi in action, is not just 'simple tricks and nonsense', trust me." Basically, Chewie's reaction to Obi Wan simply doesn't match how he acts toward the Jedi in Episode III, doubly so when you realize that he probably thinks these great warriors who showed him great power when helping them before are completely extinct - but hey, here's an actual Jedi! What's his response? "The Old Man's mad!" - That's actual Chewie "dialogue" from the Star Wars extras in the documentary - what he said about Obi Wan on set before the dubbed in the growl later. Sure, that doesn't mean that's what he actually said there in the film, but he sure said something close, judging by Han's reaction. It just doens't fit at all.
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Bingo. Chewie obviously knows about Jedi, and he may have caught Obi-Wan's unscheduled amputation of Ponda at the bar (I repeat, MAY have). And if that is the case, Chewie isn't stupid. Jedi aren't the only ones with light sabers. And I'd say at that point he's grown cynical in the aftermath of the war, being that the Empire either slaughtered or enslaved an asston of wookies. And he fought alongside this same Empire before Order 66. Probably put a damper on on his trust of other people.
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Listen to it again, you hear Qui-Gon yelling "Anakin! Anakin!" then you hear Luke yelling "NOOOOooooo!"
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? I can't think of one...maybe because there were no memorable scenes....
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Right on. Quotability is one of the big things that made Star Wars so popular. The PT had nothing to spout off.
Well, except for, "Nooooooo!" -
that Obi-Wan is never introduced to Chewie as a Jedi.
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and I am not being patronising..I dont mean "i feel sorry for you cos you just dont get it and I do cos i am better than you" like i dunno a matrix fan would say ... I mean that I feel sorry for you because it just sucks to be let down and you obviously have been. I was let down majorly by TPM and AOTC....hated them (except for the three way duel in TPM and Anakin killing the sandpeople in AOTC) but i truly loved Sith....and this was the last chance for you to like a new star wars film and you dodnt and that must suck. but for me it worked entirely. (except for nooooooo but one line..hell it wasn't even a line...the phrasing of one word aint going to ruin a fucking awesome film for me..it was just a bit hokey but you know what...fuck it. Star Wars is hokey at the end of the day. The originals were too!
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think about it. In a New Hope she says "General Kenobi, you fought with my father in the Clone Wars." Now to the best of my knowledge Bail Organa never fought in the Clone Wars. He was a Senator. Any thoughts?(Yea I know its really BS but hey if all these morons can say Leia was really talking about Padme in ROTJ instead of Bail's wife whom she thought was her real mother then I can come up with a BS theory of my own.) That is all.
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Chewie isn't introduced as a Jedi, but he has a Lightsaber and stands in front of Chewie while he's paying Chess or something and is teaching an Apprentice about the force. He also cuts down some guys handily in the bar. Come on. Chewie obviously knows he's a Jedi. It just doesn't mesh well, for the reasons I described above - it COULD have, had the storytelling been better - you could've done a thing with the Wookie's getting enslaved by the Empire(see my original post) and then have had Chewie and others think that they were abandoned by the Jedi for some reason as the purge is going on. Something along those lines. As it stands now, it's just more bad storytelling that doesn't fit with the original trilogy - like the Leia/Mother thing and many others, this is just one more thing Lucas left for the fanboys to try and "make work" for him. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dancemonster - Van Helsing sucked HORRIBLY. I thought it was one of the worst movies of last year. But it WAS better than Episode I or II. Why? Because it didn't have all the kiddy, cheesy crap, it was just bad. The actors actually had some LIFE to them and their characters. Though it certainly wasn't special, it was far better than the outright robotics of just about everybody on screen in the first two Prequels. And third, there were some well-constructed scenes with some creativity in construction, even if they weren't that good. The Star Wars Prequels - NONE OF THEM(not even the far better ROTS), has good scene construction ever. The scenes in those films are comprised of people standing there and talking to each other - mostly saying out loud exactly what they're thinking/feeling. It's horrendous.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------An example of an "interesting scene" I'm talking about from another terrible movie I saw for the first time recently - The Next Karate Kid. There's a scene in that film where the girl Miyagi is training is about to go to a dance. Her date comes over and encounters Miyagi in the kitchen, meeting him for the first time. What is Miyagi doing? Slicing a CUCUMBER with a knife. Slice, slice slice. Intimidating enough. the exchange goes something like this - "You have her back home at ten o'clock?" "Well, the dance isn't over until midnight... so, is one o'clock okay, sir?" "What you do for the extra hour?" "Gulp." Miyagi then spears the cucumber with his knife and points it at the guy, like he's just pointing offhand, but of course meaning so much more, then says, "You treat her with respect?" "Uh, yes. I'll treat her with respect."......................... Now that scene has some life, and it's pretty funny and creative in its construction, even if it's in a bad movie. Look at the actual dialogue on the page and it seems pretty innocuous - but the ACTIONS in the scene tell us so much more, and make everything mean something different than what they are actually saying. Those are just the kinds of scenes that you find in movies, adn the Next Karate Kid shows you that even bad movies have them. THE PREQUELS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SCENES EVEN REMOTELY LIKE THIS. No creative scene construction, just people standing there saying EXACTLY what they're thinking/feeling/or what's going on. It's pathetic, and THAT'S why the first two are not even as good as films as your Van Helsings. Boring, lifeless, dull, bad action scenes, and overall, as just a basic movie - amateur.
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We STILL don't have a cool space battle anywhere close to the ones in the OT.
We never saw anything as cool as the Death Star.
There wasn't a single memorable quote, except for "NOOOOOO!!!"
There wasn't a single cool new villain that didn't go out like a bitch in the end.
We didn't hear any new music themes as cool or iconic as the Imperial March.
We didn't have a single decent ending that evoked real emotion.
I can go on and on....
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While I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that Lucas is one of the singularly most atrocious dialogue creators the planet will ever know, it's nice to know you piece together a quality comment such as "it's shit"... and OH YES, his story telling is most certainly in a class of it's own... sweet jesus bad
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Lucas could have made "Episode III" a sequel to the "Ewoks" movies and it still would have been better than "Van Helsing". Say what you want about the prequels but Lucas has created a bonafied mythology in his lifetime...Stephen Sommers' claim to fame is raping Universal studio's back catalog.
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"Episode III was far, far better, and by itself, a GOOD movie, I think. Definitely better than most popcorn films these days, where the Prequels were actually even worse than the average popcorn films these days. But Episode III is not close to the Original Trilogy, and when taken in context fo the Star Wars saga as a whole, it becomes mighty frustrating." That's it right there. If it doesn't walk like Star Wars, talk like Star Wars, it's not Star Wars. The prequels are imposters. But I agree with you, taken on its own, RotS is a decent movie. But with the whole mythology set out in the old trilogy, the prequels looked like slam dunks. And they weren't, mainly because George Lucas forgot, or changed his mind, what they were about, and in so doing displayed a carelessness and total lack of respect for his own material. George Lucas is to Star Wars as Michael Jackson is to his face.
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I think Funkymonkey's reasoning is on the mark. A lot of folks think Anakin should have become a heartless monster after beheading Dooku, but I think the slow descent was more believable.
If he felt absolutely no remorse for any of his actions, why would he turn good at the end of ROTJ?
Another thing people feel wasn't believable was the tight relationship between Obi Wan & Anakin. It had been a few years between AOTC and ROTS so it isn't unreasonable to think they could have bonded more during this time...plus, both were willing to sacrifice themselves for each other when they fought Dooku in AOTC. -
Thanks man. I haven't written anything on this site for years and you replied to me straight away. I know its a bit off subject, but this "talkback-ing" is fun!
Um....Thats a very interesting point. Perhaps I've been too forgiving, but I nevertheless felt a genuine sense of drama in this film that was entirely lacking from the first two (PT). In fact, the way I see it, ROTS is a great story which occasionally suffers from poor execution. To put it another way: TPM and AOTC are bad movies with good bits in them, whereas ROTS is a good movie with bad bits in it. If you see what I mean. Sure, the scene with the children to which you refer did indeed feel too brutul, too soon.
But the second time I watched it I was able to suspend my disbelief by attributing Anakins actions to an absolute compulsion to succeeding in his first assignment. It is plausible that the Emperor pushed Anakin to commit such an abhorrent act so early in the game, because he knew that Anakin's pride and fear would prevent any early resistance to his twisted demands.
And despite denying the ability to teach Anakin such skills straight away (control over life and death), he does continue to dangle the carrot, suggesting that they should give it a try anyway. This lack of certainty, this new doubt which Sidious introduces is likely to increase Anakins desperation, not erode it. And to make matters worse, Anakin is on a very tight schedule, his kids are due at any time and his new master wont help until he has executed order 66.
O.K. I have now satisfyingly convinced myself that Anakin's youngling killing spree was not entirely unrational, but I also accept that my conviction required ME to do most of the thinking. In that regard, you have a strong argument. I just feel that you should give this movie another chance. For one thing, it is never a good thing to examine art in terms of "well if I had made it, I would have done this . . . .". Its a bit like saying, "I wish Da Vinci would have painted in some more trees into the background, and a single tear running down the mona lisa's face to clarify her emotions in the picture".
The star wars movies if anything have been elevated by ROTS, because NONE of the previous films had anything like the operatic, shakespearean aspirations that this film did. We should celebrate the fact that such a grand story exists within this universe, even if Lucas dropped the ball from time to time.
TESB achieves its pathos in a SINGLE scene. In one line of dialogue. In other words, it succeeds in part, because of shock value, and dramatic revelation. ROTS cannot play this cheap card. Instead, its tragedy is played out over the course of an entire movie, layering its characters in virtually every scene with ever more complexity. Yes, sometimes it fails. George Lucas is hardly a poet, and his directorial decisions have thrown a question mark over scenes which should have provided answers. But this is STARWARS, not MacBeth, and yet, it is a credit to mainstream, populist entertainment that starwars can now be compared (albeit shakily) to such higher forms of art at all. There are actually parallels in this story, to Faust, Othello and even the bible (Adam and the apple anyone?). I for one applaud Lucas for that.
Even if I do want to slap him for that NOOOOOO atrocity, AND the last 7 years of my life, wasted on such flimsy cartoons as TPM and AOTC. -
2 things ruined the NT for me, the lack of relationships and character development and the pacing.
Where were the relationships? The thing that connected us to the OT were the relationships between the characters we loved. We all could indentify with some aspect of one of the core characters, Luke, Han, Chewie, Leia. They were friends and family who faced challenges together loved each other and developed as characters. Han gaining respect for faith in the force. Luke gaining confidence in himself, almost like the Wizard of Oz in this respect. Where were these positive relationships in the NT? The only positive one was possibly Qui-Gon and young Anakin. Other than that there were no true friendships or love. We BELIEVED that Han and Leia fell in love. I can't imagine what drew Anakin and Padme together. Also, lets think about Jar Jar, both created and destroyed by a focus group. He was supposed to be our new Chewbacca but we hated him. This changed everything for Lucas. I'm SURE he was supposed to be the comic relief throughout the series but had to cut him because of the strong reaction against. So there was no humor after he left, not that we missed Jar Jars. The Jedi were portrayed as being no fun at all. How many of you dreamed of being a Jedi when (if) you were young before seeing these films? They were supposed to be the knights of the roundtable, not priests with a license to kill.
As far as the pacing, many people don't realize that ALL of these films individually take place over the space of a few days. It works for the OT but handcuffs the NT into sloppy pacing and narrative. There was no chance we would ever see our collective vision of a young Vader in his suit, at his most powerful or see Anakin growing anf being trained because it wouldn't have fit the "template".
I'm sure we all imagined how these films would be and it couldn't have met all our expectations. But for me personally, they failed. -
That was fucking funny man. (it's actually quite hard to not sound sarcastic when playing this game). Keep up the good work. ROTS ROCKS
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You have valid points, but why would Chewie automatically think that Obi-Wan is a Jedi? Jedi aren't the only ones in the galaxy who possess light sabers (General Grievous, Dark Jedi, Sith), and we never see Obi-Wan exhibit any kind of force power. He is only teaching Luke, and it's only a beginner's lesson. Nothing to be impressed about. So it is quite possible that Chewie thinks that this old man's a kook, especially since all Jedi were supposedly killed. And who hasn't heard of the millenium Falcon? It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs. She's fast enough for you, old man.
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Firstly.. I liked the film.. top shelf entertainment.. my only gripes are 1) I would have thought it would have been better if Vader had have let out a low, sorrowful moan building to a giant yell of anger, as it's building we see looks of worry on those surrounding him, you can hear a magnetic hum filling the room, something bad is about to happen and this poor fucking powerful bastard is making it happen... and then when he lets out the yell we watch as everything in the room buckles on itself, cannisters, walls, droids crushing etc... also... 2) I think it would have played better if Padme hadn't named the babies, firstly because it seemed forced and a little stupid.. and secondly it would seem like a better way to introduce them in the later episodes... later in Episode 4 the boy we see Owen Lars take to the Jawas to get some droids is one Skywalker baby... Luke.. and that 'there is another' skywalker baby... which we find out later in the story is Leia. I just think it would have played better across the WHOLE story.. rather than a part of a story within a story. 3) Ian McDiarmid goes from a menacing "Are you threatening me master jedi" bad guy who I find far more scary to a moustache twirling overacted cliche.. 4) the whole "I'm a good guy, wait I need him, okay now I'm a bad guy" scene.. it should have been a slow burn.. not spontaneous combustion... other than that.. everything else was sensational. Considering I had a list of at least 10 things in the previous prequels that should have been changed.. the acting was better (considering the dialogue), the effects and story were better, the overall film was better than previous attempts and now ranks above Jedi but below ANH and EMPIRE..... 7.5/10
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Interesting comments, as usual with you. I actually mostly agree with what you are saying here, and remember, I do like ROTS as its own film. I think it is a good movie, and it did give me an emotional response. However, it is in the larger picture that the film starts to have serious questions, as well as the "what could have been" and "what was" when you tie it into what we know was supposed to happen in the Original Trilogy. As for the emotional response, it's difficult for me to decide whether or not that response has anything to do with the film and the filmmaking itself or if it was more because of the baggage that WE carry into seeing such things based on our previous knowledge of the Original Trilogy, as well as our "built up" ideas about this being the last Star Wars film, etc. What every Star Wars fan has been dreaming about in terms of the Prequel story for decades really all happens in this film - the creation of the suited Vader, the birth of Luke and Leia, the fall of the Old Republic and the Jedi, etc. The way the film is, I think it has emotional resonance largely because of what we carry into it rather than the film itself. If you were somehow able to look at this film on its own, without this prior knowledge, I really doubt it would've been nearly as emotionally affecting. Again, I don't think there should've been a dry eye in the house with this story - it is by its nature a powerful story loaded with possibility. But the only people really "affected" were Star Wars fans, I think, and even then not affected in any large way or in large numbers. There's hardly any excuse for that with these movies. I do agree with you that it is remarkable that Lucas has elevated this Space Opera to such standards, with the Original Trilogy, that we'd talk about it in Shakespearean terms. It is remarkable, and very earned, but these new films didn't live up to the promise, in my opinion. In terms of Anakin's fall and the killing of the younglings, you make an interesting point, but it raises another - you say Anakin would be even more tempted to stay with the Emperor when he admits he'd been lying and didn't have the "secret" afterall, but that they could find it together in time. But then later you also mention that Anakin was "racing against time" because the Twins were due any day now. Now this didn't come across(that they were due any day) in the first place until the end when they pulled out what looked like full-term babies. That ticking clock should've been put in the film beforehand, to give Anakin more of a sense of desperation - as it stands she doesn't look that pregnant, and I'm sure most of the audience thinks she's not due for months. Also, your two points actually cancel each other out! If she's due any day, which makes Anakin racing the clock in desperation, but then the Emperor ALSO tells him he basically cannot help him, then it makes his offer of "in time discovering the secret" far less important, and actually basically worthless. Like you say, there's hardly any time, so obviously the Emperor cannot help Anakin - so his offer is worthless - which makes Anakin's killing of the younglings seem even MORE suspect. He's still conflicted at this point, and the guy has just admitted he can't help him and has been lying to him - the Emperor can offer him nothing in time if he's racing the clock. So why on earth do something so Evil, especially if he still has conflict? It makes no storytelling sense. And sorry if you don't like the second-guessing of art. I'm a filmmaker myself, so I naturally do that with films - especially films that had such potential that were not realized, such as Revenge of the Sith. Good points, though.
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May 23, 2005 6:45:35 PM CDT
AVES: OB1 didn't fight with Bail (ie Leia's father) in the clone
by colonel_blimp
The line goes: "Years ago you SERVED my father in the clone wars." OB1 and the jedi fought for the republic, thus for the senate, which Bail was a part of. DAGAN: can you mention any "cucumber-scenes" in the OT?
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I still don't think it works. It seems out of place. Chewie would've likely heard of Obi Wan anyway - he was a famous Jedi and one of the elite in the Galaxy. And he's clearly a Jedi himself by his actions. The only other person in the Original Trilogy with a Lightsaber is Vader, so they're not exactly common. But anyway, you bring up an interesting point about Dark Jedi. It's another thing Lucas got wrong. Where are they? If you watch the films, it seems that only Sith are "Dark Jedi". But that doesn't make any sense and hurts the story. There's supposedly even a deleted scene in Clones where Obi Wan is in the library and there are some busts or pictures or something of the Jedi that went to the Dark Side - and it was just a few, basically the Sith Lords. Dark Jedi should be everywhere. In the Original Trilogy, it seems Luke is always in danger of turning to the Dark Side. This makes sense, too - young people tapping into this great power - some will inevitably choose the "quick and easy path" and go Dark. The Jedi training system makes this unlikely, but it should still happen quite a bit - if even just 10% of the time. Jedi go bad, they lose them to the Dark Side. It happens. That also makes for a better story, as it gives people a real sense that Luke could turn - you don't need a Sith Lord to turn you, you can do it yourself by "being seduced by the Dark Side of the Force" as Obi Wan tells Luke. It would also give the Jedi better adversaries and make the Galaxy so much cooler. The Sith are Dark Jedi, too, but they are like a super-elite Order of Dark Jedi - the best, with the best tradition of Dark Side Secrets passed down through the years. The Sith are Dark Jedi, but Dark Jedi are not necessarily Sith. This is the way it should have been, but the movies seem to say that Dark Jedi are Sith, and it takes a Sith Lord to turn a Jedi Dark, to "seduce them to the Dark Side of the Force", which makes the precarious training of the Jedi and Luke in particular much less dramatic.
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Surely. For its "cinematic equivalent", just think of how much cooler cinematically things occur - such as Luke getting raised into the carbon freezing chamber, putting his gun up, the lights go down, the breathing up, he turns and sees Vader standing there, Vader says his lines, Luke moodily walks up to him, they stand there staring at each other, lightsabers out, no words, etc. I didn't do that scene justice, but just pop it in the player or think about it yourself and tell me where in the new Trilogy did anything so cinematically powerful exist? Obi Wan vs. Vader? The setup to that was cinematically pedestrian in terms of how it was shot. What about the Luke/Yoda scenes on Dagobah - dramatic scenes that seemed to move and flow with the narrative - Luke in Yoda's hut for instance, finding out who Yoda is... It's cinematic, and far more interesting. Scenes like those simply do not exist in the whole of the Prequel Trilogy, which simply features people standing there saying exactly what they think or feel to each other in boring dialogue exchanges.
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Am I the only one who was really disappointed to not learn why the cave on Dagobah was so strong with the Dark Side that it was able to cancel out Yoda's prescence? Shouldn't we AT LEAST seen Yoda going to Dagobah... we saw Luke, Leia and Obi-Wan all return to their respective homes... oh well, guess I'll have to wait for the HD Extended Super-Special Platinum Edition.
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For the ones that hated the new movies, sucks to be you.
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I agree whole heartedly with your comments regarding the stuff that just doesn't gel. Another that doesn't work for me now in ANH is when Obi Wan and Vader meet. Seems to me, that scene should now be much more powerful a meeting than just, "I was but the learner, now I am the master." Also the fact Obi-Wan calls him "Darth" instead of Vader or even Anakin. But that big reveal was for ESB 25yrs ago. But what all these inconsistencies really show me is how Lucas has in some ways rejected the OT, hence his trying to change things with the SE's and then again in the DVDs. And his lack of really wanting to go that little extra mile to finish "his own story" and correctly tie up all the loose ends. I think because of the limitations he claims he had back then, he just doesn't care that much about the "little things" and cares more for throwing in the forced nostalgia thinking that's good enough to link the films. I bet he actually embraces the PT more due to the fact he can now fill it with CG, which apparently is the crutch he needed. It's a shame considering the OT is far superior in every way to the PT.
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This is a long thread and so forgive me if someone else has pointed this out, but there are even more continuity flaws than the Chewie/Obi Wan thing. ROTS ends with Yoda saying they should all hide out until it's time to regroup. He makes it sounds like a plan. But if that is the case, why didn't Obi Wan start training Luke right away, when he was a kid? He knows he's going to be powerful, right? For that matter, why does Obi Wan, in Empire, have to CONVINCE Yoda to pick up Luke's training? Yoda says Luke is too hold, acts like has better things to be doing in the swamp. This is a huge error, and surely won't make sense to those unfortunate people in future years who watch all six in numerical order. It's a problem that could have been easily solved, by showing the true fragmentation of the good guys. Obi Wan could have just fled, losing his mind over what has happened with Aniken. And Yoda could have been presumed dead. It's just interesting that even on top of such big picture concerns, even the little stuff doesn't add up, as Dagan pointed out in the Next Karate Kid example. Basically, the original trilogy has no leg to stand on - if the little scenes would have been more complete, more entertaining, then some of the big picture stuff could have been forgiven. And by the same token, if some of the big stuff would have been more elegant, then we may have gotten swept up in the majesty and not worried so much about the small stuff. But that is the difference between good movies and bad - good movies get all the little moments right. There are no such moments anywhere in the new trilogy.
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I mean, this is the guy who resolved a romantic triangle by making 2 of the participants SIBLINGS.
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Great and valid points all. I felt the same way
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Great and valid points all. I felt the same way
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I'm convinced that Palpatine and Anakin were watching a holophone performance during their little talk...
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Alright, alright. Tonight Dagan, you win. I'm afraid I'm living in Germany right now and its getting quite late so I can't properly respond to your comments. Although I will say that you're a good writer/sparring partner. I had noticed the potential contradiction myself as I wrote my previous entry. I was just hoping that you wouldn't pick up on it :) . However, I'm still not totally convinced. I'm a medical student and childbirth is very often an unpredictable event. Even if Padme was due, that does not necessarily equate an instant birth. Anakin's "homework" could have been successfully completed in a single day, afterwhich the two Siths could have settled down to a theoritcal week or two of dark arts practice. But then, contradiction or not, i feel as though I am starting to drift away from our original debate: Is ROTS populated with missed opportunities or is it in fact the best that it could have been? And to that, I would have to answer: A bit of both.
Ultimately, time will tell. Your observation that our preconceptions will have influenced our take on ROTS is a valid one. And I think that when the dust has settled, we can both look at the film for what it really is. But for now, I have at least found something that I have not had for a number of years with regard to these movies: The glimmer of a genuine, new hope.
And with that, I'm off to bed.
Thanks for taking me seriously. Not many people do. -
No problem man. Despite my objective take on the movie, I have to say that deep down, in the pit of my stomach, I was fucking loving it too.
The cinematography, the music, the story, even the acting. In that final hour, all was forgiven. -
May 23, 2005 7:48:55 PM CDT
About half these posts are devoted to the "NOOOOOO!" at the end
by ribbons
Does nobody else think that's completely fucking ridiculous?
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You'd think that one quote ruined the entire movie for them. By the way, I predicted this was going to happen before I saw the film or read any fan reaction (besides for Kevin Smith's). You wanna know why? Because the people who "hate" on Star Wars aren't "haters." They actually have a conflicted relationship with the damn thing. They pour their fucking heart and soul into it, all of it, and then when it's not the movie they'd envisioned it's a supreme disappointment. Vader didn't "Force-choke" the Emperor instead of saying "NOOOOO!" because the "NO," to me, as melodramatic as it is, is more powerful there than some more pointless badassery. He'd choked his own fucking wife, for Pete's sake. The "NO" is the cry of an anguished man who's given up on life completely. Usually how it goes in tragedies structured like this was. Also, he didn't "Force-choke" the Emperor because it's not a position of power he'd earned. The Emperor was superior to Yoda, Yoda to Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan to Anakin. So you just assume now that he looks like the guy whose costume you wore for 10 years straight on Halloween he's an instant "hard man?" No. It's the same reason he wanted to kill the Emperor in the OT but didn't. He's not powerful enough to beat him. Personally, I don't think that was the most important scene in the movie anyway, but people just can't seem to get over it. Just because the moment didn't go down exactly the way you'd dreamed it would doesn't mean that Lucas doesn't know what he's doing, although an argument can be made for that based on other things.
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You know, is't almost as if there is a directoral spectrum comparible to the visible light spectrum of the universe, lol. IMHO, Lucas is on one end of the spectrum, beautiful camera work, large-scale atmospheric shots with massive plot development, terribly written and unbelievable dialogue that would never be heard in reality, and very talented actors and actresses whom are directed horribly in each scene and do the best with what they have...
and then there's Tarantino on the other end- beautiful camera work, yet with small scale shots and personal storylines, the similarly atrocious dialogue that is as poorly written as a typical howard stern radio hour, and the extremely talented actors he continues to recruit who always seem to strugle with what they have... the parallels are astounding... to say the least of the fact that they both are piss poor directors and yet still seem to come up with movies that for some reason have redeeming values that completely pull me in and leave me wanting more... maybe it's the people they surround themselves with... -
I would have preferred just a long drawn out and angry yell... or something.
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I agree, generally--makes one wonder what the hell happened to him. Yeah, watching Ep. III was truly an exercise in frustration. Because we love these films (at least the OT) so damned much, and were really rooting for George this time.
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May 23, 2005 8:11:31 PM CDT
Why Lizards were stupid and original trilogy creatures weren't..
by stlfilmwire
The chase was clearly done to show, "See what we can animate?" It ate up enough time for me to go to the bathroom, then go to the snack bar, and get two sodas... without missing anything vital... other than more chasing.
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Well first off let me just say, that yes, Episode three was a pretty good movie. Not great, and in some parts awful, but overall kinda sorta pretty good. If you pretend the first two were never made, Revenge of the Sith would manage to barely squeek its way into the Star Wars Pantheon and rank a very distant 4th. Now that being said, I remember a long time ago when Lucas first announced plans for Episode 1, that there were a few skeptics out there on the message boards worried because of what Lucas did when he had complete creative control and decided to create the Ewoks. At the time we didn't know it, but with the Ewoks Lucas was giving us a clear message as to where his creativity is when given complete control of a movie ( dancing bears, gung gung parades, Jar Jar's, acorbatic coughing robots, ect. ect.) I clearly remember seeing these few skeptics being screamed at and shouted down. I wouldn't be shocked if a few of these skeptics actually recieved death threats. Well then along comes the release of The Phantom Menace and it turned out to be an even worse bucket of vomit that even the most skeptical skeptic could have even imagined it. And most everyone agreed that it was a bucket of vomit ( except for you hardcore apologists). That was what created the so-called Star Wars haters, and also what created the Star Wars apologists. Then came all the excuses: " You have to look at it through the eyes of a child ", " I think Jar Jar wasn't so bad and was even quite good", " I like the fact that Darth Vader was portrayed as a child saying Yippee. It shows his innocence ", ect. ect.There were even worse excuses, but I won't bother because they are so ridiculous. Then came the time when Attack of the Clones did noticably worse that Phantom Menace in regards to box office recipts for obvious reasons. Well now all you Star Wars apologists are now trying to paint this image that the Star Wars haters are some kind of fringe internet cult that is in the minority, and has personality problems, anger issues and mental problems. I disagree. I think you Star Wars apologists are the fringe internet cult. I mean look at you. You actually camp out for weeks in front of a movie theater to get tickets in an age where you can buy tickets in advance online and three weeks ahead of time. When asked why you do it your reply is "Tradition". No no no no. The reason why guys like me waited in line back in the days of A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back was because there were no advance ticket sales or online ticket sales. We did it because that was the ONLY way to get tickets. Waiting in line for that long sucked, and if there were easier ways made available to buy tickets most of us would have jumped on that chance. But there you are outside camped out like geek vagrants because of so-called tradition, even though Lucas planned a 9,000 print release with half of the theaters showing it on 6 screens 24/7. And your still camped out for episode two even after that Phantom Menace vomit. Now given that one has to ask now who really is the internet fringe cult with mental problems. Whats even worse, is that even though George Lucas has on several occasions made it quite clear that he just wants to get these movies over with and out of the way so he can do the projects he really wants to do, your still looking for secret meanings in the story lines and wondering what hidden surprises Lucas had up his sleeve. There are none. Lucas really doesn't care a whole lot about Star Wars anymore. Revenge of the Sith was only a 55 day shoot. Peter Jackson ( A talented director) had over 110 days of shooting for his King Kong remake, which will make more money than Revenge of the Sith. And I'm sure it was probably pointed out that he left a huge plot hole with Annakin not giving Ben his light Saber and wanting his son to have it. And I'm sure Lucas's reaction was just shrugging his shoulders followed by a dismissive wave thinking that nobody would notice, and that the ones who do, will spend years on the message boards explaining it away and trying to figure out the hidden meanings and the genius behind why he left that part out. Afterall, he wants to finish these so he can work on other projects that he really wants to do ( needless to say, I will not be paying money to see these future projects). Oh yeah, the apologists are now once again resorting to the box office receipts excuse. Well lets do the math here. I paid and saw Phantom Menace just once, and walked out vowing to never watch it again. Many people did the same as I did because we were under the impression that we were paying to see a Star Wars movie, and what we got was pretty damn far from even resembling a Star Wars film. So we all paid once. Thats enough to put it in the 110 million mark. However you fanatics saw the damn thing 25 times and bragged about it. Thats what put it in the 400 million mark. So again you have to ask, who is actually the fringe internet cult here with mental problems? The apologists or the Haters? Even many of you apologists are actually admitting that the first two were complete vomit without even realizing it when you say things like " George Lucas redeemed.", or " Eat crow all you haters, word is this one is good " There is some hope for Star Wars though. Lucas is already letting out controlled leaks that this might go to Television, and seeing how he has said he wants to do other projects so bad, chances are very good that he will hand this off to another director and producer. So there is no possible way this can get any worse. It can only get better.
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Which side can out-marginalize the other? Stay tuned!!
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May 23, 2005 8:42:55 PM CDT
chickaloni---What about when Luke says in TESB, "There's somethi
by spacehunter3-d
I was always under the impression that Luke had been there before. I guess Lucas changed his mind.
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Great flick, it still had a hint of the annoying parts in AOTC but it was still a great end for a storie that one has been a big part of alot of peoples childhoods.
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Actually, this is merely a common misconception. What Vader actually yelled after being told he killed Padme was, "Ohhh."
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Yes, I've always thought that, too. The writers of the Empire Strikes Back were obviously laying in the fact, subtly, that Luke had been to Dagobah, probably as a baby. "There's something familiar about this place." "It's like something out of a dream, or..." etc. etc. It seems as if Obi Wan was originally supposed to stop off on Dagobah with Luke to confer with Yoda about what to do with him. I always thought Yoda might refuse to train him, as a product of his Father - refuse to have anything to do with him. This would also set up Yoda's reluctance to train Luke in Episode V quite nicely - as it stands in the "new" version with all the films there, it's going to confuse people why Yoda would refuse to train Luke in that scene. They leave with the intention of doing just that, it seems, in Episode III... "some day" is the sentiment there, it seemed like. That's just yet ANOTHER interesting bit of plotting from the Original Trilogy that Lucas chose to disregard/go against. But it's okay, he knows that anything like that can be explained away by "The Force" by the Internet fanboys.
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You seem an interesting fellow, and I have some things I'd like to ask you. Wanna take this to email?
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I think it illustrates perfectly why the OT are great examples of CINEMA and ART, while the PT are just, well, shit.
In ESB's last scene Luke and Leia look out the window at a spiral galaxy, as Lando and Chewie speeds away in the Falcon...from the look in their faces...we can tell, no, we KNEW exactly what they were feeling..they were missing their friend Han, they knew he was still alive, out there, somewhere, in the vastness of space..and they are going to do whatever it takes to find him. And as the camera pulls back, to reveal the rebel fleet..it was a scene of incredible emotion, sadness, and beauty..I still get goosebumps no matter how many times I watch it..especially with the beautiful JW music in the background..
Now compare this with the joke that is the "ending" of ROTS...we got two unknown people that we don't give a shit about..looking at the sunset the same way Luke did in ANH..I mean, wow, WHAT GENIUS, how did Lucas ever thought of that one??? And then movie ends and all you're left with is a feeling of WTF??? -
Opa-opa - I think you hit on something interesting here, and it's like I said in a post above. I liked Revenge of the Sith, and even felt an emotional response, but I think the response people get doesn't come from teh film itself, but from what we are carrying with us from the Original Trilogy. This is a case in point. I found the ending emotionally satisfying - there at the Lars homsetead. But without Episode IV and the rest of the Original Trilogy, it wouldn't have been powerful at all. According to Lucas' vision, this is Episode I - VI. Future generations are supposed to watch it as one big story(though I doubt many that watch it this way will get past I and II, unfortunately). But the "power" that scene gives comes from our having seen Episode IV, and what that moment with Luke has meant to us Star Wars fans over the years. Without that pre-knowledge and built up love, I can't imagine that ending packs much of a punch at all. This goes for everything in the film, but this is a good example - this movie derives its emotional power from the ORIGINAL TRILOGY, not from anything it does on its own. It should have easily had its own power, but I don't think people unfamiliar with the series will be that affected by anything in Episode III - the story, though, should have been powerful enough to affect any audience. Lucas just did not pull this movie off as he should have.
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Absolutely right on. Dagan...great posts. ROTS is good summer movie on it's own, but at the end of the day the prequels as a whole just don't really fit. Too many loose ends that Lucas just didn't seem to care about. And no amount of fan-boy imagineering can fill in the gaps. OT, as Ford put it, touched something primal. They connected with everybody, not just children, but everybody. The new films are the opposite. You actualy feel detached from what's going on. ROTS is the only one with any sense of drama. But the mythology, magic, and mystery seem somehow stained. There are some great moments throughout the prequels, but now that's it over--looking back, and comparing it to OT...it's just kind of a shame really. I'm not sad that it's over, I'm sad that lightning didn't strike twice. And it COULD have I believe...but alas...it's only a summer movie. (but ANH/TESB seemed like so much more)
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But Dagan, even to someone like myself who is familiar with the OT, I didn't find the ending touching, I found it embarassing. it was just such a uninspired, clumsy, forced attempt by Lucas to evoke some feelings of sentimentality, that it was downright embarassing. Actually the only good thing I felt as the credits rolled is, thank god it's finally fucking over.
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With some puzzlement and more than a little amusement I have followed the postings put forth by the haters ever since TPM was released. The whole "raped my childhood" theme was a bit much and too be honest I did not get where they were coming from. Then after reading several new posts where people describe where they were and how old when the OT was released I finally got it...most of you were little kids when you first saw SW's in theatres or were not even born. Well that changes everything. I don't care how often you revisit the older films as an adult you will ALWAYS see them through the eyes of the kid you once were..flaws and all. I was living in Austin an 17 when the first movie came out in the summer of 77. Did it blow me away? Sure. But even then I saw the cheesey dialogue and so-so acting for what it was. Pure fun and not taking itself too seriously. The same with the sequels. I remember all the small kids who attended those first movies and really enjoyed the looks of awe and wonder on their faces. Who knew so many of them would grow up to be miserable little haters who would want to deny a new generation of kids the same enjoyment...for what? A purely adult version of Star Wars that only they would appreciate or understand. There's plenty of grown-up sci-fi around. Let kids of all ages enjoy the cheesier pulp of Star Wars. and believe me...little kids had no problem enjoyng any of the prequels. I have watched my son go from a 9 year old thrilling to TPM to a 16 year old loving ROTS. Guess it was because he wasn's saddled with all of the unrealistic expectations and the vain wish to recapture the feelings of childhood. Maybe in his forties when someone is doing eps 7-9 he might feel differently. That would be a shame because it would detract from the pleasure he got watching these films. Just enjoy the movies for what they are people. Pop fun.
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Don't know yet whether it will s urpass Sith (esp. if Sith crosses the $400 mill mark, which it probably will), but seriously when was the last time we saw a truly bad-ass movie monster like Kong?? And from a truly gifted director? Sorry this is off-topic, but that was a good point.
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I saw a list of the deleted scenes from ROTS and "Yoda Arriving on Dagobah" was one of them. I'm very curious to see it.
Also, what the f happened to the scene where Qui-Gon is supposed to appear??? Yoda just explains it in a sentence and that's all we get? -
I couldn't help wondering if he'd have continued with these a few years after Jedi how would it have compared. Although, he always seemed to state that the technology wasn't there. Waiting for technology to catch up might was been why the "heart and magic" just aren't there in the PT. Forcing yourself to work with what you have always tends to make you more creative. That's why I think the OT has a better set of characters we care about. Not necessarily better dialog, but the the heart is there. With Lucas being able to do pretty much anything he wants, I think he's spent to much time on spectacle and trying to wow us, then realizing "oh, I need to write something good." You look back on every interview and making of, and Lucas always said the FX take a back seat to my story. We'll if he'd stuck to his guns, things might have turned out better.
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"It's like something out of a dream" Clearly, Luke had been there before. Chickloni...I too thought something more should have been made of that cave. Ever since TPM I thought it was a stupid idea that Anakin was from Tatooine, just as Luke. Ok, ok maybe he was born someplace else. Obi-wan being from Tatooine would have made more sense. Didn't the original SW universe guide say that Owen was Obi-wan's brother? But the twins should have definately been on Dagabah for a little while at least. And the evil of the cave could have been explained...another missed opportunity.
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Could be read one of twwo wasys.: Luke sensed Yoda "watching Over him, two, Yoda was at his birth, so felt familliar.
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May 23, 2005 9:44:56 PM CDT
Why did the Emperor need Anakin? I mean, what did Anakin do, tha
by kraken
Just asking.
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Don't know if this has been brought up in a talkback already but what happened to Anakin's saber at the end of ROTS? I don't remember Kenobi picking it up but obviously from Ep IV he had it?
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Not only was Obi-Wan not introduced as a Jedi, he wasn't even referred to as Obi-Wan. Luke only calls him "Ben". So I don't doubt that Chewie ever heard of him. He just didn't know that was him. As for Dagobah, that would've been cool. Hopefully in the TV series there'll be some shit about it, but who knows.
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Few points on why Palpatine needed Anakin. First, maybe it's just part of his Sith DNA that he NEEDS an apprentice, to pass on his knowledge. Second, like a bond villain, he needs a soldier villain to his archvillain. In other words, he needs MUSCLE to match his MIND. Third, and perhaps most importantly, if you buy into the whole "Sidious or Plaugeis was Anakin's 'pseudo-father'" then it would be natural that Palpatine, who had been a parental figure to Anakin for the thirteen years or so of Anakin's jedi training, would want to bring his "son" into the fold, as Vader wished to bring Luke to the Dark Side.
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Somebody mentioned Titanic...I think Dagan maybe. Say whatever you want about that movie...at least it WORKED. It connected with audiences in spite of cheezy dialogue, "a woman's heart is a deep ocean of secrets"...jesus. But Cameron is really good at pulling all the pieces together and not missing plot points when he sees them. He keeps things tight, and doesn't get bogged down, even when dealing with heavy exposition. Lucas would have been wise to ask him to come play with his Star-Wars toys methinks.
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Obi-Wan picked it up at the end of the duel, after the triple-stump.
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At the end of the Duel in ROTS, there is a closeup of Kenobi picking up Anakin's lightsaber.
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must have been scavenging thru the popcorn tub when it happened...
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So before I go through making a long post I'll check to see if this thing takes.
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I remember that I really liked Phantom Menace when it came out. And I remember having a good time in Attack of the Clones. In fact, I really like these movies when I actually watch them. When I get away from them, I see their flaws, get pissed, become a hater. But when I'm watching them, I'm an apologist. Does anybody else out there experience this discrepency?
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I don't know. I really love SW and always will but I have to admit that it's difficult to accept that a boy who had been trained most of his life as a Jedi could so easily "turn" and kill younglings and take part in the destruction of all Jedi because he wanted to save the life of his woman. That's a mighty high price for coochie.
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I feel exactly the same way. I really like to view the whole thing as one singular story and it is GL's idea so the direction he takes is just the way it is as far as I'm concerned. The truth is that I don't really know how to look at a SW film negatively. I define them differently than any other movies. But when I read all of the negative knit picking that is often posted here, it's like I find new reasons to not like them.....but I still do. Especially whenever I just dive into the mythos.....bad acting and all.
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Maybe I'm putting more depth to Anakin's actions, but I really bought it. The choice he had was: Betray the Jedi, save his wife and child. How many people out there would do EXACTLY the same? To save the woman or man they loved, would they betray everything they believed in? I think that Lucas lessened the impact of Anakin's decision by trying to give him multiple reasons to turn, ie: the Jedi "plot," bringing peace to the Galaxy, etc. Really the main deal for Anakin was to save his wife and kid. I buy it.
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Now that my first impressions are past and I've had a chance to see this movie the way it was intended (in DLP), I wanted take the time to share my thoughts on this last film in the saga we've all enjoyed for so long.
One of the great things about the SW saga is how it outgrew just being a successful movie and turned into a virtual (and literal) community. Books, comics, games, websites, messageboards, toys and other collectables, conventions and more have given fans of this saga a sense of ownership in the saga that has hardly ever been rivaled. Yes, there were great sagas before SW and there will be more after, but everyone who has ever been touched by this saga in any way has carried the myth forward. I'd like to think that was part of Lucas' intention in creating the saga, but if it was just a happy accident, it's one that I've been thrilled to be a part of...and make no mistake, we've ALL been a part of it...on some level.
When I attended C lll last month, it was the culmination of almost 30 years of experiencing this great saga. While on the surface to the most casual observer, the whole exercise looked like nothing more than a huge exercise in commercialism, there was alot going on that showed just how significant a part this saga has played in the lifes of so many people of all ages, of all walks of life. Yes, the exhibition room was a blast of SW possessions, but some of the things that made me proud to be a fan were seeing the wonderful sense of community that existed, from a great organisation like the 501st to the artists that shared their enthusiasm and the passion for their work and who enjoyed sharing it with those who truly appreciated it. Nothing came as close to that feeling of seeing SW for the first time all those summers ago as being in that ballroom as Rick McCallum showed us footage from ROTS...his enthusiasm was returned by everyone there. It was magic...
Another aspect of "ownership" we all share for SW came in following every aspect of the movies, waiting for those "spoilers" (or trying in vain to avoid them!!), going behind the scenes via the internet, magazines & books and "getting to know" Lucas and the artists behind this saga. It has been another amazing aspect to being a part of this saga. I won't paint too rosy a picture, sometimes folks could let their expectations and their sense of ownership run away with them (and descend into the occasional bout of rudeness) and I found myself caught up in my own web of expectations created by all the web-surfing, book-reading and magazine viewing as I strained to soak up all I could about this final chapter in this saga. As that first midnight show unspooled before my eyes, I had an amazing array of emotion...knowing this was the last chapter made me hope I would have all my personal expectations met...I wanted to see every scene I read about online or read in the book be in this movie. Yes, there was a bit of disappointment (especially missing Qui-gon & the birth of the rebellion), but on the whole, I was simply overwhelmed and thrilled by what the movie contained. Having watched it several times as it is, with those early expectations evaporated, has left me totally appreciating and enjoying this movie. Everyone involved from actors to artists to Lucas himself seemed energized for this chapter and it showed, from stirring performances to scenes crammed with so much detail that multiple viewings would be inevitable (and welcome) to take it all in...
One of the points of sadness about finally seeing this movie is knowing this is it...the saga is really over. Yes, books, games, comics & toys will continue...a television series is on the way...but the saga that started in the middle about that farmboy on a desert world that would redeem his father was over & done. It's hard not to feel sad....but it doesn't stop me from enjoying this moment...
It was interesting to read how Lucas approaches making his movies over the course of the saga, moreso with the prequels than the original...working so closely with the artists who inspire him and in turn are inspired by him to create the awesome worlds we as viewers get to inhabit. One of the major points made by Lucas as he made these movies is that for him, the script is just one level of how the story of the movie falls together...that for him, he likes to focus on the visual aspect of telling his story. This has gotten him into a little hot water with both fans and critics over what some consider to be a weakness in these movies. I guess being a visual artist myself has allowed me to make the leap past that "problem" and take Lucas at his word and follow along. For me, the results are stunning...I like the aspect of taking the visual art of this story to the forefront for how the story is being told. Some of the best filmakers do this effortlessly, from the classic images of Chaplin, Lean and Wells to our modern masters like Speilberg, Scott (Ridley), Cameron, Jackson(Peter), Rodriguez and yes, Lucas.
All of the Star Wars films lean heavily on the idea of images over words, but Revenge of the Sith is the penultimate chapter in this regard. I read the book...Stover did an outstanding job of telling the story...in interviews he commented that it was his intention to write a book that a movie could be based on as opposed to just a "novelization". He wisely focused on the thought processes of the characters...getting in their heads...motivations, feelings...and in that regard the book is excellent. One prime example of that is at the end of chapter 13...as Anakin & Obi-Wan part ways for the last time as friends...this scene was perfect on the page.
Going into the movie requires one to switch gears and let the visual storytelling take over.
A couple of prime examples of this in "Sith" are....Greivous. One "action" moment that summed up everything you needed to know about that character was when, during the duel with Obi-Wan, after he is "force-pushed" he hits the ground and scurries on all limbs like an insect before he propels himself onto his wheel bike for his escape....constantly running. The character's design looked threatening, but how he moves tells more than any group of lines could. Another moment played up in the book that was truly beautiful onscreen in in the same sequence...Obi-Wan on the boga. No long expositon with talky scenes introducing him to the creature...bonding and all...just a wonderous pull-back with the Boga leaping into the frame and off in pursuit. It was a lyrical moment that was just magic. Another wonderful motif was how as the movie progresses, Coruscant grows dark and cloudy, with deeping shadows that finally culminate in torrential rain as Sidious returns with his broken apprentice. These are just a few examples of "Sith's" biggest strengths...the story told through art.
It's really wonderful how all through the SW saga, there have been many scenes like the ones mentioned above that depend more on just letting the visual paint the picture...to tell the story. It's my favorite quality about the saga, both as an artist and a fan...from the early paintings of Ralph McQuarrie to the technical brilliance of Joe Johnston to the sweeping vistas of Doug Chaing to the inticate detailings of Ian McCaig to the stunning granduer of Church & Teimans.
I hope as the summer wears on and folks go back again & again to see ROTS that they find themselves drawn in by all the details...not just the actors and the script...I think they'll come away with the feeling that this movie is a total triumph for all involved...not just Lucas and his artists, but for all of us who enjoy visiting that galaxy far, far away.... -
I went back and watched New Hope and Empire Strikes Back the other day...I had a hard time taking Darth Vader seriously after seeing the end of ROTS and realizing that behind that mask it little whinny Anakin. Hearing James Earl Jones' voice asking about Padme and yelling was absolutely horrible!
Was it me or was Vader still crispity and smoking when the put him in that suit!
I do have to say that in Empire when you see the back of his head while he is in his chamber...its pretty cooll that you know what happened to him and why he is all scarred. -
Why can't he just call them children? Battlestar Galactica this ain't.
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Apart from Yoda...no one should be calling the children younglings! It's just creepy.
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Ah, c'mon. These are the kids Yoda raises. Can't you see that little green frog-man calling his kids "younglings"?
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'Younglings' always makes me think of "Lord of the Flies". Weren't they young'uns or something?
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But I agree with BAF, Yoda should be the only person calling the kids younglings.
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Okay, okay, If it is Yoda, allow it I can. But the other characters--know better they should.
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By whom...YOU?! I'm growing so weary of Star-Wars-apologist-weenies. It's impossible to reason with people with a mind full of muck. My love for SW was tenfold more than all you fuckers at one time. But I know a train-wreak when see one. Lucas' downward-spiral began way back in '82, and he hit rock bottom in '99. Take Lucas's dick out of your mouth for one second at least, and witness the wreakage all around you. Did his semen taste good?
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May 23, 2005 10:48:37 PM CDT
Though I enjoyed them, this is why the prequels should not have
by ingeld
While I did enjoy the last movie, I am starting to think that the first trilogy was better for the viewer when the history was only hinted at. Glimpsing Vader's scarred head in ESB gave one chills. Wasn't it kind of a let down to see Mr. Egghead Vader at the end ROTJ? Search your feelings you know it to be true. Now, I understand that the unmasking of Vader was important to the end of that series, but in a similar way the three prequels are an unmasking of all that we have imagined and why are we so surprised that it did not, could not live up to 30 years of imagining it. Untold, but only hinted at, it was a more powerful story.
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All this gay bashing, etc. is REAL interesting, but did anyone else see the Millenium Falcon, or a very close copy of it in the movie? In the scene where Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine return to the Senate, in the lower right hand corner of the screen, I swear I saw the Millenium Falcon docking at another bay. Just wondering if it was wishful thinking on my part, or if anyone else saw it too...
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After that terrible scene with them and Yoda in AOTC, I was kinda hopin they'd all get greased.
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Here is a peak into the TV guide entry of the first Star Wars special planned for television by George Lucas... "On the fifteenth of May, on the planet Naboo, In the heat of the day, in the cool of the pool." Jar Jar Binks, a kind-hearted Gungan, is the only inhabitant of his planet capable of hearing the Midichlorians, a microscopic race of beings whose entire civilization exists on a speck of dust. Mocked and abused by those who refuse to believe in the tiny symbiots, Horton must ultimately join the Midichlorians in a bold plan to prove the tiny beings' existence to the legion of prequel trilogy bashers, and thus save the entire Star Wars series from destruction."
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May 23, 2005 11:02:28 PM CDT
And you people who say ROTS is better than ROTJ have gotta be fu
by chickychow
That movie is wonderful to behold. ROTS, while not a catastrophe, sure ain't.
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Right, I understand what you're saying. But I think Lucas should have shown that instead of us having to speculate. If they would have shown the importance of Vader to Palpatine other than he needed someone to go kill a bunch of kids and nemodians... I would have understood the whole reason to even have this story told. If he really needed Anakin to track down and kill the Jedi instead of having Clones do it. And,... if he needed muscle... seems like he'd pick someone more powerful that a crippled Jedi that everyone seemed to be able to beat. Seems like he'd just find another Darth Maul type that he didn't need to work so hard to convert. I don't know, I just wish we'd seen the POWERFUL Jedi that everyone kept "saying" Anakin was going to become.
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Well don't get too distressed, did I happen to mention that I'm impressed? Suck it boys, suck it for the rest of your lives, and suck it good. How's that for thoughtful? Hate is a powerful ally.
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Check out the Making of ROTS book. There's a drawing of it. It's slightly newer looking with blue coloring on parts of it.
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May 23, 2005 11:24:13 PM CDT
Kraken: RE: "if he needed muscle... seems like he'd pick someone
by krullboy
RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!! Now that I have that ode to "Clash of the Titans" out of the way, the whole point of the Emperor trying to get Luke WAS TO REPLACE Vader BECAUSE he was no longer as valuable as he had once been. And what other type of demonstrations of "power" did you need besides what you already saw? Yoda referred to his "power" also from the context of the POTENTIAL that Anakin had, hence why Sidious tells Yoda "Lord Vader will become more powerful than you or I". Anakin did thingd in the PT that no one else was doing, ie podracing, jumping thousands of feet through the Corscant skyline, surviving the Clone Wars (which few other Jedis did), piloting his Star Fighter, using the Force, etc etc. What is did he have to do? Part the Red Sea?
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Now that the George Lucas has completed his Star Wars saga and has turned his attention to continuing the franchise on the small screen, I actually think that he laid down the framework for a potentially interesting show. When the Jedi were being slaughtered and Obi Wan and Yoda fought their way back to the Jedi Temple in order to send out a signal to warn any surviving Jedi to stay away, I can envision a television series much like the 70's KUNG FU series starring David Carradine. A Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi series could deal with a surviving Jedi knight who wanders the solar system helping people while constantly being pursued by bounty hounters, Sith Lords and the Empire. It would certainly be interesting and original to see the series ultimately end with the hero's death at the hands of Boba Fett or even Darth Vader himself. Can anyone remember a television series where the villian won? Didn't we all want to see the coyote eventually catch the Road Runner?
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I remember when we were debating whether or not Shmi Skywalker's death was realistic or not. Well it WASN'T! And you know what? After three years, I don't give a shit!
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I think that austin1 is correct about the nostalgia factor. I think a lot of Star Wars fans look at the OT with a childhood or preteen bias. If you had seen the OT as an adult for the first time you'd have noticed some of the same things that you haters complain about the PT. ROTS kicked ass.
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Why has this forum about the greatest of all Star Wars movies, ROTS, turned into a debate about sexual preference? You guys wanna bitch about that crap go somewhere else.
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May 23, 2005 11:51:27 PM CDT
Why are we talking about whether or not 'Kong' will beat Episode
by ribbons
Oh yeah: because this TalkBack is populated by people who are waaay too personally invested in the success of a movie. Your tastes are more in line with everybody else's. Congratulations, your No-Prize is in the mail.
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Just that one scene in ROTJ of Vader telling the captain "the Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" is already 100 TIMES better than anything in the piece of shit ROTS.
And is there anything in ROTS that even 0.0001% as cool as the Battle of Endor...I mean these moronic ROTS apologists make me want to hurl...
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Are people who, y'know, genuinely LIKED 'Revenge of the Sith' considered apologists? Is that technically correct? Or is that just how you're going to choose to classify them because it's quickly developing a stigma? It's no less shrill and moronic than people who liked it calling every single person who says Ep. III was no good "haters."
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Aussie Fan here, checking in from Victoria. I have seen Sith twice so far, once at Century City Walk at Midnight on Opening night and then for the second time at VMAX on Saturday night. I thought it was FRIGGIN AWESOME, and I cried both times....the annihilation of the Jedi, Padme's Funeral, the ending....dear god...the ending shot is FANTASTIC and Johnny's musical cues just sweep you back to the time you first heard them. Leia's theme, the reprisal of Duel Of the Fates and the Binary Sunset...WOW.WOW.WOW. George you did it...thankyou !!!!!! The Saga is complete. I LOVED the opening shot too. The pan over the early model Star Destroyer with the beating drums....tooo bloody cool.
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There ARE standards, or "absolutes"(despite what Lucas clumsily tries to put forth in these movies). And while art is certainly subjective, it is only subjective to a point. There ARE scenes that are clearly "better" than others, for instance, just as there are clearly better movies than others. The Original Trilogy are simply better movies in every respect(except special effects) than the new films. The storytelling is just far better in every way. You don't have to be a certain age, you just have to understand movies and what makes them work. The new films are simply not as good, and the first two are simply atrocious compared to just about any film. Sure, kids WILL like any movie with effects and stuff like that, but adults are not incapable of judging films once they were older, whether they saw them as a child or not. I know this is true of myself, and I'm sure it's true of all of us, that we have many films we used to "like" or even "love" as children that we realize simply suck balls now. How often has that happened to you? And you may feel nostalgia for films like that, but you don't watch them much or at all, or hold them in high regard. The Star Wars films are not like that. They are simly great films, especially IV and V, and even to an extent VI. And I also have more empircal evidence that doesn't support that argument - I know people that never saw the Star Wars films when they were young, who were shown Episodes IV, V, and VI to prepare them for the Phantom Menace, and even Attack of the Clones later. Invariably, these people loved the Original Trilogy and were dissapointed in the new films - AS ADULTS. You can argue that all you want if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that there are indeed absolutes, even in film, and the difference in quality between the two trilogies would lead even the average movie critic/fan to conclude the the Prequel Trilogy is ABSOLUTELY inferior, in every storytelling respect, than the Original Trilogy.
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you're an apologist if you try to explain away every thing that sucked about ROTS. if you acknowledge it's flaws and still like it then fine, but alot of people can't accept that ROTS just wasn't good.
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In a few months, this film will be thought of as another "Independence Day."
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...and another thing: How did R2D2 lose his power of flight for Episodes 4 thru 6? I don't think I missed it and I've yet to read someone explain it. Anyone?
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No, no parting of the Red sea. But I think it would have been nice to see him take out some Jedi instead of a bunch of Clones doing the job (and by Jedi I don't mean 5 year olds). It also would have been good to see Obi-Wan losing the duel, and somehow barely beating Anakin. Instead we get a fairly even duel and a very lackluster resolve (higher ground? Really?). Allthough, the monolouge that Obi-Wan gives at the end of that duel had tears welling up in my eyes... so that was very good. I just think the biggest problem I have with this film, is the same problem I have with all 3 prequels... too many missed oppertunities for great story telling, instead of being nothing more than a showcase for the newest cgi tech. Honestly, Lucas is a brilliant idea man... he just needs to start turning his ideas over to people who can execute them better than he is able.
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And to blow that "childhood" argument completely out of the water...when I first saw ESB when I was a kid, I HATED it. I hated that the bad guys won. I thought it was the worst of the original trilogy.
Now 20 years later, it's my favorite movie of ALL TIME. And after seeing the disaster that is the PT, I love it even more.
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I reserve judgement of ROTS until I see it again - however, last night I saw AOTC on network TV, and it was actually improved by the commercial breaks. The movie comes across as flat. A few inspired moments, but flat. AOTC is the bottom dweller of the Star Wars movies - #6.
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May 24, 2005 12:22:29 AM CDT
Revenge of the Sith review and thoughts of the entire SW series.
by gravyakira
Just thought I would add a few of my late thoughts to one of my favorite film series. Star Wars is something I hold dear to my heart. The original SW trilogy was my favorite until LOTR came out. I still feel that Empire Strikes Back is one of the ten best films ever made. But I also have Fellowship of the Ring in my top ten also. ROTK might squeeze on that list in a year or two, but me even having that thought is why I have to rank LOtR higher than SW. After having seen Revenge of the Sith 3 times now, my love for Star Wars is back at its peak. I was not alive when Star Wars was first unleashed on the public in 77'. I am a 20 year old film geek(as big as they come) and an aspiring writer-director. I use to just like Star Wars until they were rereleased in the theaters in 97'. There was something about seeing it on the big screen in a theater packed with geeks that made me fall in love instantly. Watching those three films in the theaters was an experience I had never had before. The prequals were a disappointment up until ROTS. I like them it seems better than most, but they were far from the movies i was expecting or wanted to see. There are moments of greatness in both, but that is a completly different discussion and it feels like I have been writing for too long and havent even got to my thoughts on ROTS. I would like to start off by saying that if Lucas had handled his love scenes betwwen Anakin and Amidala a little better, and done a little fine tuning on a couple other badly written scenes, this would have been a flat-out masterpeice. The opening is by far my favorite of the entire Star Wars series. That opening shot dropped my jaw the first time I saw it. When you first see the size and scope of this battle from that overhead shot I almost jumped through the roof. I loved the chemistry between Anakin and Obi-Wan. I loved what Anakin did with R2-D2. I loved his self-sacrificial attitude. I loved Anakins "Im the baddest MF in the universe" demeaner. Ewen gets a standing ovation for his performance as young Obi-Wan. He may now be my favorite character in the entire series after this film. Haydens performance could have been almost as great if he would have been given better material to work with. I also have to get this off my head while im talking about Anakin and Obi -Wan Kenobi. Their duel at the end of this film may have been my favorite of the series. I really did not want to see those two fight even though it has been getting talked about for years. During the first half of the film I found myself liking Anakin more and more. I kinda felt sorry for the guy. So much power at such a young age and evil all around you has to be tough. I can understand why he turned to the dark side, even though I hated him for it. By the time he was watching the sun rise with that tear coming down, I almost had the same reaction. The reason I feel this fight was the best of the series is the emotion I felt for these two characters. Plus the fact that it was badass! That John Williams score for this battle is one for the books. It captures every image on screen through music perfectly. I am going to stop here because I have to get to my college studies and realized this has turend into a rant. I would like to close by saying that RotS not only met, but surpassed my expectations. The perfect ending to a trilogy and a nice tie-in to the originals. Its also one of my favorite films of all-time and an experience I will remember for the rest of my life. My new list after having a couple of days to think about it. 1. The Empire Strikes Back 2. Revenge of the Sith 3. A New HopemMight be different if I was alive when it came out) 4. The Phantom Menace 5. Return of the Jedi 6. Attack ot the Clones Thanks to everyone who read this!
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Opa-Opa, I remember being in about tenth grade, talking to a friend of mine. This was about 1993 or so. I told my friend that I was beginning to consider The Empire Strikes Back the best of the Star Wars movies. The look on his face was priceless. It was sheer incredulous surprise... like "What did you just say? That's ridiculous." I had forgotten all about that until you just brought that back up in your last post. But it's true, and does put even another nail in the silly "childhood" argument. Empire has gotten better as I've gotten older, and Jedi has gotten worse. I still think Jedi is an incredible film on the whole, however - hardly any popcorn film out there, except for Star Wars, Empire, Raiders, and that kind of film, exceed Jedi. But yes, growing up gives us a better view of films, not a clouded one. And again, we all have films we can point to, I'm sure, that we thought were great when we were young, that we realize are terrible films now. The Star Wars films aren't like that. If anything, they've gotten BETTER as I have learned more about filmmaking and storytelling. And the idea that "kids like the Prequel Trilogy!" is no "argument" at all. Kids like anything with special effects in it. I remember being a kid and not understanding what it was when I'd hear people talk about "not liking" particular movies. I remember thinking that "all movies" are good, and I liked every movie I saw. Then one day, I didn't like a film. I don't remember the film, but I remember that feeling. So clinging to kids to try and pump up the Prequels is a pretty weak argument. Still, like I've said, while I think Episodes I and II are atrocious, I like Episode III as its own film - just not as a Star Wars film that is part of that larger saga, and not in relation to what it could have/should have been.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thorfin - as for AOTC. It's "better" than TPM if only because it doesn't have Jar Jar screeching throughout the whole movie, and climax with Jar Jar antics and a little squealing kid who blows up a bad guy ship by just randomly pushing buttons and screaming things like "Spinning! That's a good trick!" AOTC is flat and terrible, but at least it's not constantly annoying like the first film, as well as being terrible. That's why I put TPM as the worst of the bunch.
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Sorry. Darn enter key! Anyway, I've noticed a downward trend in people's opinions on the movie. On the first day of seeing the film, it was nothing but praise. Half a day later, nitpicks. 2 days later, gripes. 4 days later, confusion over just how good it was or if it was good to begin with. Not trying to be trollish here, merely charting that reactions and memories are shifting as time takes us farther away from ROTS. And BTW, I think that was a holophoner concert Palpy and Ani attended. Futurama lives!
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May 24, 2005 12:40:22 AM CDT
Restroom breaks are easy to take during the prequel movies...
by fa fa fooey
For the OT, I'd shet my pants before missing any portion. With these movies, the only thing I'm missing is my laptop to pay bills or something.
Greedo fired first.
I clean my pool with Midiclorians. -
When I was growing up, and being lucky enough to own a VCR despite being somewhat poor, the Star Wars films were always there. Even with dodgy copies wearing thin, they always seemed to do the trick and for that I'm forever grateful.
That said, I must say the to this day my favorite scene is any movie that has ever been put to film was in Episode 4, towards the beginning...the Tatooine scene that has a passionate Luke looking longingly towards the dual sunset...a powerful image to be sure, then the William's score blasts in. Unlike any other, that scene has haunted my entire life. I could identify with Luke...wanting more. Realistic in all things practical but forever the skyward dreamer...
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May 24, 2005 1:26:34 AM CDT
Repus3000, I agree completely. And lest we forget, Anakin looked
by krullboy
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As San Souci pointed out. Once the Star Wars contact high starts to wears out and you realize you got caught up in the Lucas hype machine. You'll start to evaluate RoTS for what it's worth, and figure out that you were duped, and it was just a rush job to get this saga finished. The OT will always hold up as a classic, while the PT will always be the black sheep of the family that had so much potential. I'm a SW nut, but that doesn't mean I've got to love everything.
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May 24, 2005 1:30:40 AM CDT
Most pitiful scene (and I say that meaning I felt pity FOR HIM)
by krullboy
and learns that she is dead. That is classic Greek tragedy. And you can tell he is still in pain at that moment, and it struggles to say her name, the last shred of a life he had. It is then, and only then, that he becomes Darth Vader. It was chilling and effective, and to see Palpatine's smirk at the creation he has made, wow. Now when we see Vader throw the Emperor down the shaft in ROTJ it is all the more powerful.
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May 24, 2005 1:45:28 AM CDT
The most important scene in ROTS is that they may have finally s
by orionsangels
"Oh, what's this? Galactic monthly?" I need to meditate a number2
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May 24, 2005 1:52:13 AM CDT
With ROTS, Lucas has gone back in time and digitally unraped my
by truthseekr1488
"You had me at NOOOOOOOOO!!!"
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Dagan's "plotholes" posted earlier seem to suggest he doesn't quite understand Han and Chewbacca's dynamic. Just because Chewie growls, and Han says "thats right chewie, where'd you dig up that old fossil" doesn't mean he's translating Chewie's words. Han is a bit of a scoundrel, and is just giving his own opinion, under the guise of translation. It's called humor. Not plothole. Also, just because Lucas may have talked of Wookie enslavement, I don't recall it in the OT, therefore it's ommission is not a mistake. On the mother issue...all she ever says is that her mother was sad...I would assume her adoptive mother would have been sad, as she's unable to have children on her own...why else would they have "often talked of adopting a baby girl." You're reading more into the OT's lines than were actually there if you somehow think this is just apologist rationalization. Also, to extend scenes (like the younling killings) is unneccesary. It would not make the storytelling any better. Only slower. Lucas's style is fast and abrupt. He doesn't linger to let things absorb. He knows his audience will see the film multiple times (he invented that audience) and will anylize his work frame by frame. The fact that he doesn't resort to the usual or cliche'd trickery of most movies (slow motion...see LOTR) to achieve his desired emotional effect should be applauded. His style is unique and unexpected and a bit odd. But it cannot be duplicated.
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Worry less about the homage to Frankenstien. If Lucas cared an ounce about this icon he wouldn't have him staring down the Burger King, force choking the M&M's or waiting for his Cingular audition. Who knows what else Vader's doing in other parts of the globe?
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Thanks for the post Elijah Wont. I think Vader showing that emotion is fantastic, just like that moment in ROTJ on Endor where even after Luke is taken away, the camera shows Vader pausing and thinking about what his son had just said to him. Lucas does not get enough credit for this kind of stuff. I have never read Oedipus, but correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't the main character kill his father and end up sleeping with his mother, but he does not know because he was blinded at some point? I think the whole point of the "Frankenstein" moment is Lucas' homage to the old movies and serials. I did kind of like how the Polis Masa scene hearkened back to 2001: A Space Odyssey as well. Also, did anyone notice that the boosters of the escape pod that General Grievous uses at the beginning looks a lot like the one used by 3PO and R2 when they escape the Tantive IV in ANH?
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Makes ya wonder, what an audience of 1977 would have thought of ROTS. I bet even the Vader "NOOO!" would seem cool to them. We've just become way too cynical for our own goods.
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May 24, 2005 2:27:11 AM CDT
Oh come on, Ratphink. You know Vader's not a real character, rig
by orionsangels
What happens in SW marketing, stays in marketing. Maybe the matrix sequels would have been bigger, if Neo was selling burgers. "Woe, whopper and fries truely are the one."
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Wait, I just that read he robbed a theater and got away with it http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3377573 ------ Leave 3PO and R2 as the marketing shills, Vader has an image to uphold.
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Neato. Although the non-Vader version can be found at 20Q.com
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..... no worries. heh, i can only speak for my part of London, but some people do call the more 'touristy' people 'hank' (esp if they have the requisite cap and camera on). Im 32 since you ask, and dont have anything against americans (I just hate twats- no matter what nationality they are!), just get annoyed hearing the old (and quite wrong) stereotypes us brits often suffer - Is it true that over there we've got a rep for having shit teeth then? Gotta be Austin Powers' fault methinks. That's quite a funny story about the only 'hank' you know. Anyway, cheers for the post, talk to you soon mate. (gotta go byrne some wood)
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so stop trying to drag this into a usa/brit hard-on war cos it wont work sonny. (theres a few americans on here that can confirm im 'sound as a pound'). I'll just confirm my views one last time for you ok? I hate cunts like you who tell me what i like or dont like- NO MATTER WHERE THEY COME FROM- and if you look back on this TB, you'll see that you started the anti-brit mudslinging. The only thing left for you to do is fuck off and take your big fat pox-ridden mum with you.
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totally agree with you man
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May 24, 2005 4:16:22 AM CDT
Fuck all this pointless bickering---how about some sex theories
by liberty valance
I think that Padme, while outspoken in her political life, would be very submissive in the sack. You know, doesn't make a lot of noise and only likes to be on the bottom. There's no way she'd take the cock doggy style because she'd be all self-conscious about those scars she got on her back in the Geonosis arena. But at least we know she'll let you go bareback and just dump your load in her, so that's a plus. And how about that Aunt Beru? I bet Owen fucks her like she made fun of his dick size. Ties her up and slaps her around. I mean, how else would an attractive young girl turn into the repulsive old hag we saw in ANH just 20 years later? It had to have been more than just TIME that was unkind to her. And while we're on the subject of the OT, Han would get so much primo quim on Coruscant that he would dump Leia two heartbeats after landing, even if she did agree to do anal. Now isn't this more interesting than arguing about dialogue?
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May 24, 2005 4:18:18 AM CDT
Anakin and Obi-Wan's brotherhood is delved into more in the Clon
by iamnicksaicnsn
It also explains Grievous' cough, more Anakin Palpatine dynamic, more Anakin/Dark Side development, Palpatine's kidnapping, etc... which is why it was so important to watch them. Knowing the entire saga brings out a lot in Revenge of the Sith.
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"Anakin does not actually turn to the Dark side at this juncture, you can see the regret in his eyes, the confusion, as he kneels before Sidious."
THEN WHY DOES HE GO AND KILL A BUNCH OF INNOCENT CHILDREN. Is he still in regret. His turn didn't work people. Just admit it -
May 24, 2005 4:34:31 AM CDT
Did you know that Senator/Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine's first n
by liberty valance
Yeah that's right, Melvin Palpatine. He got teased a lot as a kid on Naboo and decided to get his revenge by commiting genocide across the entire galaxy. He also wanted the badass "Darth" name that sounded far less pussy than Melvin. Can you blame him?
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May 24, 2005 4:47:22 AM CDT
Will this end the debate as to wether this film is an allegory f
by tonywilson
http://film.guardian.co.uk/cannes2005/story/0,15927,1484795,00.html
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Is the name DARTH just an abbreviation of 'DARklordofthesiTH??? what do you think people?
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MELVIN could also be an abbreviation- MELtedfacecuntwhotriedtoblowupyaVIN - SPOOKY EH?
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And your opinion is absolute law, correct?
Fuckmop. -
after getting sodomoized by Jabba's tail, she could anally take on Han, Luke, Chewie, and Lando, and STILL have room in her Crusty Starfish. Carrie Fisher is/was a MASSIVE slut in real life, and I GUARANTEE in her bio that she will confess that she fucked Harrison Ford while filming ESB in London, saddled around her time snorting coke in the West End. I agree that Beru (Bonnie Piece) is a major cock fiend, only because most farmer girls are sexually frustrated, and when they do get deep dicking, they go "full throttle" as Luke would say. I agree that Portman is WAY to prim and proper for doggy, let alone anal, fisting, 69ing, or anything else. And while we are on the topic, it does seem like Palpatine has sprinkled of gayness in him at some times. Might just be his character, but seemed like he batted for the other team in more ways than one.
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May 24, 2005 6:21:50 AM CDT
palpatine does indeed have sprinkles of gayness krullboy
by banthafodderuk
didnt you see how much he was smiling when he told vader padme wasdead- he was thinking "oh yes, RISE lord vader, and lets get on with some uphill gardening"
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...those who chose to download this rather than go see it in the theater. Now, Episode III had flaws. Whether or not those bugged you enough to ruin the movie for you is one thing. But I think one of Star Wars' simpler pleasures is seeing it with a packed house. Unless of course you hate other people. But the energy makes the experience more enjoyable if you ask me.
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Even if you don't consider the scene in Palpatine's office an official "turn" to evil, I think that -- and I think that one of the movie's biggest problems was this -- Anakin's motives are questionable at best. They're explained, sure, but I'm not so sure they make all that much sense.
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May 24, 2005 6:33:36 AM CDT
America did not start this war. we are responding to a sneak att
by colonel_blimp
Powermetal, you're not actually arguing iraq was behind 911 are you? Going to war against iraq as a response to 911 is like beating the shit out of a canadian because mexico beat you at basketball. The war in iraq was a "response" to a fictitious threat (no signs of WMD yet huh?), or a phantom menace if you will (tied that up nicely to the TB topic, didn't I?) The fact that the current events coincide with the SW plot is just because history has a tendency to repeat itself. Anyone of you seen Antz recently? It's the same story there and that one's from what, 1998?
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Remember these classic lines "the hate is SWELLING in you".. . "I can FEEL it". . ."take your fathers place by my side". . .Maybe the Jedi Order hates gays, and the "gay Jedi" they expelled created the Sith Empire thousands of years ago. If so, then we need to sign Gary Glitter, Elton John, George Michael, and Robbie Williams for the sequel trilogy. Episode 7: the Revenge of the gay Sith Lords.
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Ive seen it at the cinema twice- and i agree its a better experience. I have got a copy on dvd as well, (which is quite usefull for rewinding fucking cool scenes like obiwan jumping out of his fighter and dicing some battle droids all in one big leap). But cinema is best (well, for me anyway).
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i agree that the terrorist attacks deserved a response. blame should not be placed on the middle east but rather on radical hateful groups throughout the world. your hateful banter makes you no better than these terrorists. as for an earlier post you made about border crossing, language, mexicans etc. you might have missed your american history classes, but i will fill you in. we stole america from the indians, FACT. but they were gay sodomizers so they deserved it i guess? i really agree that it is fun sometimes to be a "jerk" and get under peoples skin, but you are just too blinded by your hard set beliefs. i am not gay and there are many things about the gay community i dont agree with. im actually surpirsed by your accute knowledge about what gay guys do to each other. do they really drink each others ass juice? wow thats pretty unsanitary! im sure you are a nice enough person in real life and i know longer wish to carry on this argument as neither of us is going to change our opinions. i admit it is fun to write witty back and forth insults on each others intelligence, sexuality, opinions, etc. the truth is though we both, and for that matter most of the people posting on this site, spend way too much time online. lets just all join forces and build a star destroyer shall we. as much time as we all waste on here im sure it wouldnt take long if we "doubled our efforts." word!
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Where a new force power is revealed- 'force facial' this is where they shoot shitty cum out from their 'sith weapon'.
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Personally, I'm cool with that. What I don't get is the people who say "Fuck this movie, I downloaded it because I don't want to give Lucas any money etc..." Chances are you're (the general you, not you you) gonna hate it a lot more simply because you're not getting the same experience. Or maybe not, I don't know.
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May 24, 2005 7:07:29 AM CDT
The title and opening crawl actually helped this prequel (for on
by catbarf the 5th
ROTS is a great title. Good on its own, resonates with ROTJ on many levels, etc. Much better than TMP (very "old movie serial"... OK George, I get it, but it's still silly) or AOTC (which suddenly made a title like TPM sound restrained... ughhhh). Not only that, but the opening crawl was actually decent. It actually felt like a Star Wars crawl. Short, pulpy and concise... not like page 13 of the Galactic Weekly Gazette like Ep1 and Ep2. (OK, "War!" with an exclamation point was pushing it a little, but it was still OK). This really got the movie off on the right foot, set the correct tone, and grounded it as a Star Wars movie...which I think has a lot to do with why the rest of it flows as well as it does. Even when that "this is a real Star Wars movie" tone is broken, it seems to come back to it often enough to put it on a higher level than the first two prequels. It's a weird movie... part Star Wars 4/5 and part Phantom Menance, if you can wrap your brain around that idea.
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Your posts were freaking hilarious. BanthafodderUK, in addition to the "Force Facial", the Sith could use the "Force Felch" and the "Force Fist". And GoatZinger, thanks for remining the world about that greatness that is/was Cocolopez. I have heard from him in a month. PlazolaMex wanted to get together a posse to kick his ass, so who knows. Perhaps CocoLopez is trying to anally increase his Sith Semen Midiclorian count from MinasTirithII, another shameless fucktard that has yet to rear his face "in a long time, a long time."
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ROTS IS THE CHOSEN ONE to bring balancee to the series. Once again PT lovers will rule the talkback. Do what must be done, do not hestiate, show no mercy. Every single prequel hater is now an ENEMY of starwars fandom.
I want you to goto the hater's houses and fuck them up their stupid asses, it is the only way to generate enough fanboy power to save ROTS's box office from negative word of mouth.
Darth Sidious: There is a great distubance in the talkback. We have a new enemy, young haters who destroyed the first AICN ROTS Talkback. I have no doubt these fuckwits are the offspring of basement dwelling uber dorks.
Vader: they are just boys, Peter Jackson and the Watchowski brothers can no longer help them bash SW (after ROTK and Reloaded/Revolutions)
Darth Sidious: The son of these fucktards must not become fanboys
Darth Vader: if they could be turned...they coule become powerful allies
Darth Sidious: yes...haters turned to fanboys could be a great asset...can it be done?
Darth Vader: they will join us or fuck them, fuck them up their stupid asses I will in my super star destroyer.
Darth Sidious in ROTJ(talking to haters):
you want this, don't you *fingers copy of pre-SE OT laserdisc* ....I can feel the desire, welling in you now...take your ROTS ticket, use it...STRIKE ME DOWN WITH IT, give in to your repressed fandom...with each passing moment of not loving ROTS you make yourself more a complete fucktard.
---- and now for something even more original, George Lucas as Anakin in the volcano scene of ROTS
Lucas: I don't want to hear anymore prequel or SE change gripes. The ot-lovers turned against me, DONT YOU TURN AGAINST ME.
Fanboys: I DONT KNOW U ANYMORE! Lucas, your raping my childhood, your going down a directorial path my feeble imagination can't follow
Lucas: because of Jar Jar and the NOO scene?
Fanboys: because of what you've done to my childhood, because of what you plan to do, stop...come back... I love you!
Lucas: LIAR!!! Your with the haters! You brought them here to nitpick my masterpeice!!! *forcechokes the haters by re-editing ESB to have JarJar in it* -
May 24, 2005 7:22:06 AM CDT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co
by trevor goodchild
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The very phrase "Star Wars", by itself, was a very powerful title in its own right. When the first one came out, it WAS the entire series, it WAS (and still is), "Star Wars" (nothing but "Star Wars"...cue Bill Murray lounge act here). At a gut level I think it's impossible for anyone who saw it before 1980 to think of it as anything else. Those two words have a simple classic power to them, and any slap-on additions to it (in the context of the first movie) can only read like less than a footnote. Furthermore, the title "A New Hope" is totally flacid. At least "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones", as bad titles as they are, sound like adventure stories. The add-on title ANH was probably deliberately low-key so as not to compete with SW's already huge reputation, and it was clearly only added for series continuity reasons, but I still deny the existence of the title "A New Hope". I don't care what George says... even if he "special editioned" in this change within X months of the original release (how long was it anyway?) it will always be just "Star Wars" as far as I am concerned... the title is "optional"... series continuity be damned on this one. (Oh, and it's "Raiders of the Lost Ark", not "Indiana Jones and the ROTLA"... geez...)
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I can see the haters right now viciously trying to think of an epic comeback to your post, but obviously can not. The part about Palpatine teasing about the pre-SE laser disc was FUCKING EPIC!!!I only wish you would have posted a few days ago when this TB first came up, so that the haters would be there to take in your glory, just like the willing, upturned face of Jenna Jameson before she gets a tsunami of man milk splooshed across her face (and then dribbled down her tits). EAT IT HATERS!!!!EAT IT NOW!!!AND EAT THE CORN OUT OF LUCAS' SHIT WHILE YOU ARE AT IT!!!!
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May 24, 2005 7:55:49 AM CDT
ROTS/ROTJ Paralells: Revealing Thematic Analysis, also top reaos
by fanb0y
Anakin's fight and destruction of Dooku paralells ROTJ and directly reflects the opposite of what happened in the Mace Windu/Palpatine confrontation.
In the Dooku fight, Anakin hesitates to violate the Jedi Code by killing a captive Sith. Palpatine urges him to do it, so disregards the code and gives in to his hateful desire for revenge.
When Mace is about to kill Palpatine, Anakin uses the excuse of it being against the Jedi Code to protect an evil Sith Lord.
Both of those stem from the same source, his fear of loss and desire for revenge, causing him to fail the jedi code.
Reasons ROTS Rules: Anakin/Padme staring at each other accross Coruscant as very haunting and emotional heart wrenching tear inducing soundtrack plays, and palpy's voice plays over in Anakin's head as tears roll down his face as he resolves to not los Padme. Anakin/Obi-Wan Face. The Mask coming down. Any scene with Palpatine talking to Anakin. The opera/Darth Plaguis scene. Anakin/Padme love scene where Anakin's happiest moment of his live is revealed to be the pregnancy of padme, giving extra weight to his saving luke in ROTJ. Order 66/jedi death scenes. Anakin force choking padme. Padme saying "there's still good in him" before dying. Anakin telling Padme that they don't need to run anymore, that he is powerful enough to overthrow the chancellor. Anakin telling ObiWan that he won't take Padme from him. Actually, fuck, the whole movie ruled.
Reasons ROTS redeemed the trilogy: Added chills to any scene of Anakin talking to Palpatine with such line sas "one day you wil be the greatest of all jedi". Showing thath is turn in ROTS wasn't quick with brilliant lines such as "its all obi-wans fault, he's holding me back, one day I wil be the most powerful jedi ever I will even stop people from dying, then padme comforts him, her comforting him is the only thing that kept him from going totally dark in AOTC even, he had already killed women and children why are the haters surprised if he kills jedi children in ROTS, the seeds are planted, Padme is the only thing keeping him from the dark side, and if he loses her he is totally lost. ROTS adds infinite new dimensions when watching OT, any scene with obi-wan, yoda and vader becomes much more effective, and the Vader redemption, unmasking and leia/luke talk in ROTJ become that much more tear inducing if you consider that Leia is the daughter of Padme. Haters, give it up now while you still have time to redeem yourself, don't wait 20 years like Vader did. Oh Btw there's nothign wrong with the "nooo" scene I've seen it 3x now, the first 2 times I laughed out loud at the cheesiness of that scene, and then I realized it, its perfect...he is almost dead, burnt by lava, and newly operated on, and the only thing he cared about was Padme, and now that shes dead...he is dying...the slow moaning nooo was the dying gasp of Anakin, it isnt passionate and intense because its a last gasp of Anakin..., of a broken dazed cyborg man with a voice modulator. FUCK YOU HATERS. Every single ROTS hater is now an enemy of the republic. Do what must be done, do not hesitate, show no mercy. Fuck them, fuck them up their stupid asses. RISE MY FANBOY LEGIONS, RIIIISEEEE!!!!!!!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4575291.stm
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I've immensely enjoyed your posts in these talkbacks also. Join me, together we will rule these talkbacks. Together, we can defeat the haters, they know this to be true, they have forseen it. I wish I had posted earlier too, but I was too busy watching ROTS at theatre three days in a row and then watching EP 4,5,6 DVD's and TPM/AOTC. Hopefully they'll make a Talkback #3 cuz this is fucking ridiculous...Look at the size of this thing...cut the chatter red 2...the scroll bar is still up...PULL UP, all fanboys PULL UP! I know Han will get that scroll bar down. =****MSG TO HATERS****------Palpatine: Your hater excuses are lost, and your friends clinging to the pre-SE OT Laserdiscts will not survive...there is no escape from this my young apprentice, the Haters Alliance will die, as will your childhood. Gooood I can feel your anger. I am defenceless. Flame me down with all your grasping at straws ROTS nitpicks and your journey toward the dork side will be complete. *Hater force pulls his lightsaber to strike me, but Darth Krullboy/Vader blocks with his own* HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
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Vader:(spoken to Hater) If you only knew the POWER of the PT/SE. With our combined power, we can end this pointless TB, and conquer the geek galaxy as Vader and ex-hater. HATER: I'll NEVER JOING YOU!! VADER: Rick McCallum never told you about the creator of the OT HATER: He told me enough, he told me you remastered them VADER: NO, I am George Lucas. NOW SUCK MY LIGHTSABER NOW HATERS, AND YOU MAY TASTE YOUR MOM'S CUNT JUICE ON THE PLASTIC TIP BEFORE IT DRIES!!!
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"Not if anything to say about it I have"
That abberation aside I really liked ROTS. -
May 24, 2005 8:51:22 AM CDT
"Breakdancing Monkeys and Jack Black chewing up more scenary tha
by banthafodderuk
FUCK THE HATERS, FUCK THEM UP THEIR STUPID ARSEHOLES. "AND EAT THE CORN OUT OF LUCAS' SHIT WHILE YOU ARE AT IT!!!!" - PRICELESS KRULLBOY
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i think that after youve seen it a few times in a cinema, its ok to download a movie (Im not saying its right, but its better than getting a warehouse full of bosnians working 15 hour days packing your stock in a pirate dvd shithouse i suppose). But watching it in a cinema full of geeks was cool (there were people with lightsabres etc).
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I doubt this TB will be up for very much longer, and it has been great taking on the wangstas and the haters. It has been a good fight, and as Han says "you're pretty good in a fight, I could use you". That being said, the campaign against the evil oppression of the haters MUST NOT end when the TB disappears. COCOLOPEZ is still out there. MINASTIRITHII is still masturbating with butter, shoving a greased Palantir in his ass. And others, too many to be named, may crawl and hide like a bitch like General Grievous did when he knew his ass was grass, but they will be "hunted down until they are found." And to those FUCKING Morons that think KONG will come close to ROTS or ROTK, the gorillas from CONGO will throw shit all over that crap. Just wait until a CGI Jack Black gets thrown in the air, only to be saved by an eagle that talks to a gypsy moth. OOPS, sorry, wrong film.
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May 24, 2005 9:10:12 AM CDT
SO WHAT DID YOU ALL THINK ABOUT MY DARTH THEORY (LISTED ABOVE)??
by banthafodderuk
DID YOU THINK IT WAS CRAP? IS THAT WHY NOONE'S REPLIED?
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I'd like to see the deleted sequence from ROTS where Anakin and Padme visit the Lars family back on Tatooine, and when the men are off getting vaporator parts Padme and Beru shower together, make out, and other stuff.
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Your my mate BanthafodderUK, and your theory is pretty cool, but I don't think Lucas would have meant it to mean that. I think the Darth thing is just a title, and is close to, but not the same as "Dark". That is also my thinking behind the "Sith" title, in that "Sith", as a word, subconsciously is linked to words like Sin, Slither, etc. Just a thought; you may be right.
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May 24, 2005 9:23:23 AM CDT
pmroche: And then we see Padme and Beru lick blue milk off each
by krullboy
BAM. I have now officially raped ALL your collective childhoods!
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my theory is probably crap mate. As for padme and beru fucking - why stop there, get a few twilek whores involved - think of the headtail-fucking fun that could be had people!!!!!
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How about Padme filling a turkey baster with blue milk, squirting into the blue Jedi chick's vagina, then have the blue Jedi chick piss the blue milk all over Padme and Beru's faces while a Twilek slut plays with their clits with her brain stem/tentacle thing. BAM!!Childhood raped again!!
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you guys crack me up...you really get off on ripping those you deem "haters." what, you prequel "lovers" are the only people that have a right to judge Star Wars. Because you choose to like the poorly acted cartoons Lucas is shoveling out these days that means that others don't have the right to not like it. get over yourself...much like the rest of you I grew up with Star Wars and was a big fan. What, now because I'm disappointed with the prequels I'm labeled a hate and not entitled to an opinionr? Nice to throw labels on things. The Nazi's liked labels too. I've done a few post the past few days and not once have I gone after someone personally because they liked the prequels...my criticisms have been of the movie and Lucas's film-making ability. It seems it's only the Prequel "lovers" who are going after those they disagree with because they have so little to actually say about the film to support their points so they make personal attacks or resort to cutesy little obsenities. How many Greedo shoots firsts/Han steps on Jabba's tail/Luke screaming/Jar Jar Binks/humans in Toon-Town/Midiclorians/Fart Jokes/Action Figue Yoda and Sidious/Kung-fu Artoo/CG Stormtroopers (just to name a few) moments is it going to take before people realize that the prequels and the SE's just royally suck ass? It's fucking eye candy....devoid of any soul or personality...don't you see it. Oh my god I just realized...the prequel trilogy is Paris Hilton!
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Sorry, kids. I just didn't believe it. George Lucas took three movies to build up to the fall of Darth Vader. And instead of a slow, graceful transition from light to dark, he worked in the "absolutes" that he admonished in his own dialogue. Anakin went from empathic Jedi hero in one scene to callous murderer who slaughters innocents in a temple in the following scene. I sat through six hours of tireless action sequences, and that's the payoff that I get? George Lucas was better served by letting smart people flesh out his story ideas (Kershner, Brackett and Kasdan from Empire Strikes Back proved to be an outstanding team). Lucas is a marketing genius, and should stick to making really great toys for the kids.
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May 24, 2005 10:16:47 AM CDT
"then have the blue Jedi chick piss the blue milk all over Padme
by banthafodderuk
i can't top that ; D
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May 24, 2005 10:22:52 AM CDT
Yes, the whole "absolutes" thing Lucas is trying to push is phil
by dagan
Is it wrong to kill those innocent kids? Is it ABSOLUTELY wrong? Come on. There ARE absolutes in life, obviously, and the Jedi are supposed to embrace that. They have a moral code based on absolutes, "don't start down the dark path", etc. - and they're right. They are not "too rigid" - look what happens when Anakin goes that way. If anything, the Sith are the ones who DON'T think in absolutes. Nothing is right or wrong, only whatever advances their own agenda. It's just like the Communists in the 20th Century. They were an atheistic country where their system of Government became their religion. As a result, they had no "absolutes" of right and wrong, other than anything that would advance their ideaology in the world. So they would lie, cheat, murder, whatever - as long as it advanced Communism, anything was "okay" to them. That's why they took over almost half the world slowly over the 20th Century until we finally faced them down resolutely in the eighties, and switched our policy from one of "detent" and "containment" to one of transcendence.
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I'm sorry, but you simply know a lot of things that aren't true. The Soviet Union expanded its power throughout the latter half of the 20th Century, gobbling up dozens of countries and territories, either directly or by proxy. The United States did no such thing. We never invaded countries to take ground. We invaded to keep the Soviets or their proxies from taking over other peaceful countires. Did we keep South Korea once we saved it from the Communist invasion? No. It has been its own sovereign country since that time. Not so with the Soviets, who invaded and invaded and invaded to expand their Empire, breaking treaty, lying and murdering to keep advancing their goal of one Communist world government("We will bury you," they said).-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And you are sorely misinformed about Reagan. HIs Soviet policies were completely revolutionary. No other US President had approached the problem in the same way. We had "detent", in which we gave the Soviets military superiority under Nixon. We had "containment" before that, in which we let the Soviets pick off land a little at a time - not quite enough to get us to do anything about it at any one time, but over time let them double their Empire and enslave over two billion people. And then under Carter, we were told that we just must accpet that the Soviets will advance and the West will decline - that it was inevitable. None of these Presidents engaged the Soviets like Reagan did. His policies were radical. They shocked people. When asked what he thought we should do in the Cold War, he said "Win it", which was looked on as a shocking, extreme, and impossible idea. Liberals the world over protested Reagan every step of the way and claimed he was going to start World War III. Once again, the liberals were proven completely, and embarassingly wrong.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Reagan was writing about his plans to break up the Soviet Union as early as the fifties. His policies were a radical new direction - no other American President, Republican or Democrat, had ever enaged the Soviet Union in such a way, and they fell apart exactly as Reagan predicted by his own hand in his writings. ---------------
In 1982 Reagan signed an executive order which has since been declassified that shows that the administration predicted the Reagan policy changes would force the USSR to "elect a reformer" that "would not try to dismantle the Soviet Union, but try to hold it together." This is EXACTLY what occured only three years later with the election of Gorbechev, which was a response to the relentless squeezing of Reagan's policies, which liberals steadfastly opposed. ----------------
But don't just take "conservative propaganda" as a source - ask the Soviets themselves. On down the line, from ex-KGB heads to the former Soviet Ambassador have described the situation in detail, how they had finally achieved superiority over the United States because of the failed policies of other Presidents, and how they entered the 1980s in the best position they'd ever been. They also detail how that all quickly changed with Reagan's War on Communism. The Soviets actively campaigned against Reagan in the 1980 election as well, as their KGB file described him as a "dangerous anti-communist" and said that "he is a rare politician whose words and deeds are one and the same." There were later at least three plots by the Communists to assasinate Reagan.-------------
And then ask Lech Walesa and Solidarity, and Natan Sharansky and the Russian underground about Reagan - they all credit him. Sharansky describes how he was in a political prison when word filtered in about Reagan's "Evil Empire" speech. The prisoners talked through tapping and into toilet pipes to spread the word, and how finally an American President was standing up to the bad guys, calling a spade a spade, sent a whole new energy into their revolution. The "Evil Empire" speech was breathlessly criticized by liberals, saying Reagan was going to "inflame" tensions and that he was thinking in "black and white" terms. Actually, it energized Solidarity and the Underground, and gave those behind the Iron Curtain hope. The Soviet Empire WAS Evil, and Reagan wasn't afraid to say so, no matter what the New York Times said about him.----------
There simply is no doubt about what happened in the Cold War, and there is no doubt that the left was completely, embarassingly wrong on every count during that conflict. The path they resisted so fully led to the complete opposite result than they predicted. You'd think those so quick to embrace their views would consider how often they are wrong about things like this - from the Cold War to leftist Neville Chamberlain versus Winston Churchill before World War II - you guys simply don't have a good track record. -
I'm with RicCage on this one. Vader's scream was very cheesy and felt very out of place. With everything that we see out of Vader in the OT, he never raises his voice, much less screams in pain. The same message could have been portrayed far more effectively by having him calmly destroy everything around him with his "new powers."
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May 24, 2005 12:15:24 PM CDT
The Original Trilogy still blows the half-baked prequels out of
by malx
Just look at the advertising. I saw a commercial with stormtroopers and freaking Rebel X-wing fighter pilots in it! Those haven't been around since the 1980s! Yet you retards still think people will care about the prequel films 5 years from now. The markets have spoken: neither companies nor consumers give a rat's ass about any of the prequel characters. Indeed, the only reason people even care about Revenge of the Sith is because it leads back to the original films. Just because you finally got a film that apparently syncs up with your rampant ADD and CGI porn addiction doesn't mean it will have a single speck of cultural relevance in a decade - well, except for the endless beatings Jar Jar will get for the next century. The Prequels may have set some records alright, but in all the wrong areas. And you mouth-breathers would cheer a test pattern if it had Vader's breathing playing in the background.
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"I have waited a long time for this," you dickwad haters! ROTS rules!
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I saw Revenge of the Sith, the final episode in the Star Wars saga, with my wife this weekend in Atlanta. I have worked pretty hard at not getting too excited or judgmental about this final installment. When I exited the venue, I was left with the distinct impression that I had just attended a funeral. More specifically, I feel that I attended the funeral of a relative, lets say... like an uncle. Say this is the uncle that one remembers as a kid always being the life of the family reunion. He was that guy that set the bar for what to expect at a family outing. He was cool and avant-garde; older family members kind of envied his seemingly inexhaustible appeal with his nieces and nephews. As a kid, one lived for those summers and the promise of some time with this favorite uncle. There was a satisfying and embracing wholesomeness and connection you felt.
Of course, then you start to grow up and so spending time at family events becomes more challenging for everyone; people move, new jobs create pressure to stay close to home, etc. You get the occasional notes from the aunt who chronicles family happenings. In those omnibus treatises of family business, one is enthralled with the musings of the favorite uncle, who has now gone from being the youngest in the panoply of family elders to the station of -
If they are smart enough to make all life or death medical decisions, imagine how smart they could be on the battle field. A droid army with that kind of real intelligence could wipe out anything. Good thing the empire never decided to make an all droid army.
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from a friend... "Yoda can't be found on Degobah because back in the day he killed a Sith Lord there, whose evil spirit ended up residing in a tree--the very tree Yoda sent Luke into to face his fears (Vader) in Empire. So, because the Sith Lord's and Yoda's dark/light sides of the force cancel each other out, Yoda can't be sensed and is safe on Degobah. Also General Grievous' constant cough is the result of a run in with Mace Windu, who "Force" caved the General's chest in. Ouch."
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You said:--- "Who the hell told you CONTAINTMENT was built around letitng the USSR PICK OFF smaller countries? It was a policy with the EXACT OPPOSSITE GOAL, moron! It was to CONTAIN communists, not to let them EXPAND. Two different words there."---.....................Once again, you prove you have little actual knowledge of what went on here by the monstrously wrong and demonstrably untrue statement. "Containment" was a buzz word, but a joke. It wasn't working. Like I said, the Soviet strategy was to pick off territories a bit at a time, so we in the U.S. would feel "that's too small to kick up a fuss about" - but over time, it added up to enormous, unanswered Soviet Expansionism.--------- In the decade before Ronald Reagan's inauguration, for instance, the Soviets and their funded proxies and agents had expanded into South Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Angola, Ethiopia, Mozambique, South Yemen, Libya, Syria, Aden, Congo, Madagascar, Nicaragua, the Seychelles, and Grenada. Who's the "moron" now? Containment was a joke - a pipe dream that every American of both parties clung to while the Soviet Empire crawled all over the globe, until Reagan outright chucked the policy - much to the chagrin of the Soviets themselves(again, just ask them or read about who they credit - Reagan), AND to the chagrin of leftists the world over.---------------------Let's look at where the Soviets marched through after Yalta - Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Mongolia, Turkmenia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kirgizia, Poland, Moldavia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Albania, Czechoslovakia, Huingary, Romania, Bulgaria, East Germany, Yugoslavia, North Korea, Cuba, South Yemen, Congo-Brazzaville, North Vietnam, Guinea-Bissau, Cambodia, Laod, South Vietnam, Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambique, Nicaragua, the Seychelles, Grenada and Afghanistan. Containtment, eh? A joke.-----------------------------------------------------------And no, we did not do what the Soviets did in terms of expanding an "Empire". The Soviets marched in with troops and tanks, and helped Communist rebels all over the world overthrow governments and conduct coups. They moved in and elminated the people's right to vote and their freedom the world over, often while outright occupying their land with their military and outright invading like Afghanistan.------------------------------------------------------Reagan didn't "curtail" his policies in his second term at all. He's already won. He always wanted to elminate nuclear weapons, as his private writings revealed at the Reagan Library show. He forced the Soviet Union to its knees and into reform. He enraged the liberals more than any other time during his second term at Reykjavic when Gorbachev agreed to give up EVERYTHING in terms of weapons , if only we would do one little thing... give up the Strategic Defense Initiative("Star Wars", ironically). Reagan said no and literally walked out. "He gave it all up for Star Wars" the liberals and the press cried. Doom and Gloom was predicted. But Reagan realized how powerful a threat SDI was to the Soviets - that they would offer to sign a treaty to give up everything if we'd just give up SDI spoke volumes, and he held to his resolve, knowing that SDI was bankrupting them and they would eventually come crawling back. They did. It worked perfectly, and exactly as planned. Had we followed the advice of the Left, it would not have happened. ---------------------------------- The country has actually embraced Reagan even more than Kennedy. He's shown on polls as being considered one of the Greatest American Presidents, often ahead of Kennedy, by the public. A great percentage of the country agrees that he should even be put on Mount Rushmore - that's a lot of adulation. And by the way, I like a lot about Kennedy, and I dislike a lot about him, too. I like that he was a supply-side economics man. He cut taxes ACROSS THE BOARD by 20%, and said he was doing it to spur the economy and RAISE revenue. Cutting taxes and RAISING REVENUE. That was his spoken plan. Democrats used to believe that stuff. And it worked. Just as it did for Reagan in the 80s, who cut taxes across the board and actually INCREASED revenue as a result. Proving supply side theory works. We went from Carter's admitted "malaise", where we had double-digit Unemployment and double digit inflation to very near no inflation and extremely low Unemployment after Reagan's policies took hold. It was an economic awakening we had not had since LBJ started his ill advised "Great Society". ------------------------------------------------------------------ And again, this "last link on the chain" business is just provably wrong. Reagan's policies were completely different than anything that had come before. He abandoned detent and containment in favor of a poicy of trying to win. The Soviets didn't have to spend near as much before Reagan because the Presidents before were following those policies - they signed treaties with them that we kept and they broke(no moral grounding), which caused them to gain military superiority for the first time without having to "race" us to do it. Reagan changed all that with policies that were so radical the left was predicting he would send us into nuclear war. How can the left be so overheated about Reagan's "radical" policies when they were being implemented and then, after the work, say "Oh, he wasn't doing anything different than anybody else anyway." Well, which one was it, guys? Either way, you were and are wrong. ------------------------------------------------------------------And I notice you didn't address my challenge to go and read what the Soviets themselves say about Reagan. As well as the Polish and others in Eastern Europe. But yes, they lie and cheat - they broke every major treaty with us until the end(when they broke apart), and we did not.---------- And yes, I'm 28, but I remember well what it was like when everybody was telling us kids at the time that Reagan was going to start a nuclear war. That was the rhetoric from the media, our teachers, and the left. It was very scary then. So scary I even wrote a letter to Reagan when I was young, asking him to please not start a nuclear war. But your argument means nothing. Yes, I was young during that time, but by your logic that means none of us can talk about World War II, or Napoleon, or the Founding Fathers - basically, your sentiment is simply illogical, like the rest of your post. Unless you really are saying that one must have lived through a time to be able to comment on it. I am a student of this period of time in the history of our Nation, and by your posts I'm pretty comfortable in saying that I know far more about it than you do.
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It's not a "tree". It's under a tree - it's always been described as a "cave", but it's not really that, either. Watch the scene again - look when Luke enters, and when Vader comes out - there is concrete, straight lines, etc. They are in a STRUCTURE of some kind. What is it? Was it a temple? What? It would've been nice to at least have gotten a hint in the Prequels, but it's just one of the many things George just seems to have dropped here.
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Perhaps you should teach social studies. Take the political mumbo jumbo to usenet.
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I made a point about Lucas's ridiculous "absolutes" philosophy. Once again, is it wrong to kill innocent kids? Is it "ABSOLUTELY" wrong? Okay. So his philosophy is provably ridiculous. But that discussion got an answer from somebody that went into politics, so I answered back. I think I have that right. If you don't want to read about politics, you can feel free to skip a message that has gotten off to it, especially one that grew out of a discussion of this movie.
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May 24, 2005 1:41:54 PM CDT
Krullboy and La_Sith..at last we will reveal ourselves to the Ha
by fanb0y
All you pathetic whiners remind me of that arrogant imperial officer in ANH:
Officer: WE now have the most powerful weapon in the galaxy, our ability to nitpick.
Vader: don't be too proud of this negative terror you've constructed, the ability to find a fault is insignifigant next to the power of Lucas's film to inspire human emotion.
Officer: Your sad devotion to that ancient Neckfatted one has not helped you reclaim your childhood, nor has it helped you find the location of the non-timestamp ROTS dvd-rip...*gasp*
*force chocking you fags to death* VADER: I find your lack of faith DISTURBING...
Harry Knowles: Vader, release him! This bickering is pointless, we all know that ROTS is the end of our childhoods *Sob*
About the "Noooo" scene, its obvious you guys didn't pay much attention. The fact that Vader's creation scene is intercut with Padme's death its obviously showing that when she dies, the last thign holding him back from full dark side embrace is her love, her belief in the goodness in him, and when she dies that passes onto Luke who's love and faith will save him later on. I can't believe you're all complaining that the scream isn't impressive enough or whatever, ITS HIS DYING GASP, the last emotional outburst of Anakin Skywalker..once he hears of Padme's death...its just his groan of utter despair and desolation, as his completes his turn into the pits of the darkside...thats why the Emperor is smiling.
If he was all intense and screaming loudly like you dickheads wanted that wouldn't jive with the fact that hes dying would it, idiots.
THE "NOO" SCENE IS ANAKIN'S DYING BREATH THAT INTERCUTS WITH PADME"s BREATH THEY DIE TOGETHER. IT IS A BEAUTIFUL TRAGIC MASTERPEICE!!!!! I suggest you "haters" go to a few more repeat viewings, and you will find what I say to be true. I have forseen. Now, go, FUFILL YOUR DESTINY!!!! -
and "I cannot interfere"... but for some reason, every talkback that involves SW or LOTR inevitable dissolves into political talk, with long, LONG posts, most of which have completely veered off the topic of the movie.
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Ok, Gorbachev was really responsible for the cold war ending. Reagan was not a brilliant president he was only really just a competent one i heard on bbc he used to sleep until 11 and finish his day officially at 4 (does anyone else have evidence for or against this?).
I would fucking love to see Padme and Twi'lek sluts going for it with a Jawa (lucky little fucker).
As for Anakin's turn to the Dark Side i have to say i think it worked; he was put in impossible positions by the Council he was treated like crap by everyone and ultimately i think it was Obi Wan's failure that caused it.
I really loved this film but not in the same way i love Empire or ANH those films are from my childhood and I will always have a special place for them, regardless of cheesy dialogue or scenes that would just seem far too naive today.
ROTS really is the only great film from the PT and the only one ill be happy to watch again on its own.
But surely everyone who is a Star Wars fan is waitting for that day around six months down the line. That day we all go buy the Special Edition DVD and have one fucking awsome, cool geek fest with 12 or so hours of pure indulgence.
Who's with me on any or all of this ramble
p.s its my 6th viewing tonight and i still think its fucking great. -
And has virtually everyone missed the twist about the Sith (Darth Plagueis) possibly being responsible for Anakin's creation?
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It's a cave, Dagan - you're thinking of Clone Wars volume 2....
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Maybe in time my opinion of it will lessen, but for the moment, I enjoyed ROTS, and I thought it was an improvement. No where near the OT, but way better then episode I and II. The acting had improved quite a bit. The Anakin and Padme scenes were still shocking, but I thought the Anakin and Obi-wan scenes were far more believable this time. Ian Mcdiarmid was great, obviously. Some scenes were awesome. Some were almost great but were ruined by something stupid ie. Vader yelling noooooo. Some scenes were really bad. The space battles still look way too CG to me. Not one space battle in the PT has worked for me. General Grievous was a stupid character. My main gripe is that Anakin's turn was way too fast and I found it a bit hard to believe that he'd go from "what have I done?!" to slaughtering children so quickly. The ending, though, was pure class. I couldn't have asked for anything better then Luke being handed to Owen and Beru as they stare at the famous twin suns.
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Too fast?? He has been turning since Qui Gon and Obi Wan took him from Tatooine!!
This film is where the Emperor's plans are revealed but trust me Anakin's fate was inevitable from the start (maybe even before TPM, if all this theorizing on Darth Plageusis is correct).
That "NOOOO" was absolutly fine i mean think about it you have betrayed all you loved been beaten by an old old friend, burned alive and mutilated in to some grotesque hybrid only to find out the only thing you still cared about is now dead, through your actions no less. Your not going to pause for a second to have some kick ass line or to even thinking anything beyond??? NOOOOO!! -
La_sith - Lucas invited the political angle both with his film and his comments about his film. It's fair game, since it's something he intended to put in the movie - whether we all like it or not...........................TonyWilson - I have many of Reagan's iteneraries, and I've never seen one that said "up at eleven". Once again, the BBC is full of it. Reagan's National Security briefing was at 7:30 each morning. He would get up everyday at 6:00 AM, and generally go to bed at 10:30 or 11:00 each night. He did leave the Oval Office by six or seven most evenings, but he always carried up more work or had it delivered to him, according to multiple sources. The left's version of Reagan as the guy who "did nothing" and was just a "puppet" of more powerful interests was just a charaicature, and one that was blown away by the release of tens of thousands of Reagan documents recently - we see his writings, letters, and radio addresses which he wrote himself - volumes of really brilliant work, which prove he was the author of his own policies and beliefs - and from the late forties on he was probably one of the world's foremost experts on the Soviet Union, with just about everythihg he predicted about them coming to pass.--------------------------------------------------------- As for Gorbachev, what did he do, exacty? He deserves huge credit for reforming the Soviet system, but the "reformer" that was Gorbachev was predicted by Reagan three years prior to his ascendence to the General Secretary of the Soviet Union! Reagan knew his policies would cause a reformer to be able to take power - somebody who would not try and dismantle the Soviet Union, but would try to hold it together and save it through reform. That's exactly what Gorbachev did. And remember, Reagan got everything he wanted out of his Cold War victory, while Gorbachev was just the guy giving it to him. Gorbachev is the one who desperately tried to get Reagan to give up SDI, Reagan is the one who refused and caused Gorbachev to have to crawl back to the table a year later. Reagan got what he wanted - Gorbachev did not. Reagan is the one who demanded that Gorbachev "tear down this wall", in a speech that liberals the world over decried as inflammatory and dangerous. Even many of the "moderates" in Reagan's own administration desperately tried to get him to cut that line from his speech, and it was a controversy up until the moment he delivered it. But Reagan felt it needed to be said, because it was RIGHT, and he said it anyway - because it was the right thing to do. And now it's one of the most famous speeches in Presidential history - and guess what? Only two years later the wall finally came down. Reagan got what he wanted, Gorbachev did not. Reagan won the cold war.
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I know Yoda says that, for shorthand, maybe - rather than "the ancient temple." But go back and watch that scene in Empire - it is obviously meant to be a built structure - it has doorways and straight lines. It is overgrown, yes, but it IS a "made" thing, obviously, and was meant to look that way. Watch it.
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I didn't say Gorbachev won the cold war i said he was responsible for it ending because he gave ground.
That is far more impressive to me than to be beligerent and arrogant as was America's foreign policy for Reagans presidency.
Er and whats with this "once again the BBC are full of it"??
Please don't tell me your talking about the Andrew Gilligan scandal?? really you just can't be. -
1. The Opera scene
2. The scene in Palpatine's back room when he reveals his true identity.
3. The final confrontation, Obi Wan, Anakin and Padme.
4. Obi Wan and Padme, "You're going to kill him, aren't you? scene"
5. Anakin - screaming - to Mace, "I NEED him".
6. Yoda breaking into the Jedi Temple, kicking stormtrooper ass!
7. Yoda and Palpatine, "my little green friend" scene.
8. Order 66 scene.
9. Anakin's face as he kneels.
10. Anakin's face as he stares across the horizon towards a blacked out sun. . . . in Hell!
10. General Greivous and Obi Wan, spagetti western close up on the eyes.
11. Grevious, finally cornered and pulling out is FOUR lightsabres.
12. Yoda and Palpatine rising up into the endless space of the senate chamber.
13. The "you were the chosen one" scene.
14. Yoda "failed I have".
15. Anakin being asked to spy on the Chancellor, silhouetted against the Corrouscant skyline.
16. The funeral scene, Padme clutching Anakin's gift.
17. Obi Wan's face as he has just given Luke to the Lars, before turning away, into the shaddows.
18. The opening shot, camera plunging over the star destroyer and into the HUGE battle above (or is that below?)
19. John Williams score.
20. The pathos of Vaders character, sacrificing everything he had to save the woman he loved, and then discovering that it was he that killed her. The brilliance of the Emporers lie, is that Vader will spend the rest of his life wallowing in self hatred and denial, and will therefore always lack the self-belief necessary to usurp his master (until of course his son restores it in Jedi).
21. The portrayal of how easy it is to make a wrong decision that will haunt you for the rest of your life (many examples, but the execution of Dooku really got to me in particular - you know, I wonder if any low ranking German officers ever had similar experiences during the war?)
22. Anakin and Obi Wan, having their final, friendly exchange before the shit hits.
23. Padme bursting into tears as Anakin leaves her appartment.
24. Best scene of them all, when Anakin and Padme are in different buildings, staring out into the city by dusk as the sun (finally) sets, to haunting music and an earily still Courrescant.
25. The Duel itself: fast, violent and Operatic in both its cause, and its consequence.
26. The visual cues linking this fantasy world to our real world: The temple burning (9/11), the space ship breaking up during atmospheric reentry (Columbia).
27. "So this is how democracy dies. . . .". Simple, challenging, timeless.
28. The cinematography.
29. The way that I actually cared about these characters for the first time in 7 years.
30. Ewan
31. The whole damn thing!
And countless more.
Three scenes that could have been improved:
1. NOOOOOOOO
2. She's lost the will too leave
3. A little more development before the kids being executed.
So you see. ROTS rules. And anyone who says otherwise, well I hope that one day you can enjoy this movie. It really is quite good. -
You obviously have a pretty dismal understanding of how things work. That wall had stood sense the Sixties - boxing people in in West Germany, and nobody did anything about it. Reagan went there and told him to tear it down, putting himself as close to the wall as possible so people on the other side could hear him. Those people speak of how big of an inspiration to their cause that was. It was a bold thing for an American President to do, as the liberal reaction and the resistence even by moderates in his own party shows. This man literally changed the world, and as a result of his Presidency hundreds of millions were freed by the fall of the Soviet Union - something that wouldn't have happened, or at least would have happened decades later if at all if we had taken the advice of the left, then. That's why Bush is so well greeted in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet countries, and that's why there was such an enormous outpouring over there after Reagan's death last year - they lived through it, and they knew what happened. They don't call Reagan "The Great Liberator" for nothing.---------------------------------------------------------And trust me, I know all too well how history can be "re-written" in just ten years time - I've seen the left(and you) try to do it to the legacy of Reagan, when the facts are so clearly against your revisionism. That's why it's very important to check sources, read multiple authors and points of view, and take their biases into account. History IS absolute - real things DID happen. You can't just surrender to the fact that people will try and shape history the way they want and give up. The study of history is about separating all that out and coming down to the truth.--------------------------------------------------------------And as for the U.S. doing some "morally reprehensible" things - sure. Every country is made up of human beings, so of course this will happen. EVERY country, and especially any country with any power or influence has had very questionable things occur. However, the United States as a country stands for a philosophical set of ideas that is unlike anything that came before it in the history of the world - of true personal freedom and individual liberty. For the first time ever, a group formed a nation and government NOT for the purpose of controlling its people, but for the express purpose of LIMITING their control of the people as much as possible. As Thomas Jefferson said, "The Policy of the American Government is to leave its people free. Neither aiding nor restraining them in their pursuits... and the only reason we resort to Government at all is to insure that people don't take liberty from each other." How far we have come from that original idea, but we are still closer to it than anybody else in the world.-------------------- And we have had our flaws, like any nation, but certainly no other nation with even close to the amount of power the United States has has been so benevelant and beneficial to the world as a whole. Historically nothing can touch us. The United States has been an extraordinary force for good in the world, from the spreading of freedom, to the liberating of countries from tyranny, to the remarkable technological and economic advancements that have given us the quality of life we now all enjoy.
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If what your last post says is all correct then please explain your justification for The Sandinistas situation??
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May 24, 2005 2:58:36 PM CDT
Oh just one more thing...The fall of the Berlin wall has far far
by tonywilson
to do with the failure of East Germanies leadership then Reagan.
Dont use the old chesnut about the USA leaving it's people free to make up there own minds...dont be so naieve Gays aren't free to marry, abortion is rapidly being illegitmised and many of the same people who voted for Bush are now trying to tell us that Natural Selection is bullshit and we are heathens to believe they are trying to ban it and the government is not doing ANYTHING to stop that.
Right im sure there will be many insults and comebacks thrown my way and go for it im here to talk about Star Wars (not the Reagan endorsed piece of shit either). -
The BBC is one of the most incredibly biased and fraudulent news organizations on the planet. If you want to get a good dose of reasons we can take this to email, but that's just so off topic and so long that it's innapropriate here. As for Gorbachev "giving ground" - he only did so because his hand was forced by Reagan. Reagan wasn't "belligerant", he was simply firm and resolute, like your Churchill before him. He called a spade a spade and just flat out decided it was unnacceptable to just "live with" the Soviet Union, and the billions it oppressed, and the Global Annihilation it threatened. Gorbachev tried to hold that totalitarian rule and that threat together, but failed because of Reagan, which caused the whole thing to collapse underneath the Soviets. The missle treaty at the end of the Reagan's term was very good(see? not a warmonger), but it was also a last-ditch and too-late effort by the Soviets to stave off their collapse. It didn't work. Reagan got treaty and caused the collapse of the Soviet Union. Gorbachev didn't do anything by "giving in" that ending the Soviets. Treaties and words on paper didn't collapse the Soviet Union, it was a vast and coordinated series of policies undertaken by Reagan that did that - a strategy that he'd formulated and written about years before he ever became President. And it all worked just as he predicted. Gorbachev just "gave ground" in terms of a missle treaty, not on the fall of the Soviet Empire across the globe - that's what he was trying to stop, and that's what the policies of Ronald Reagan produced. -----------------------------------------You'd think the BBC and the left would learn from history. They were with Chamberlain instead of Churchill in WWII. Who was right about Hitler? They said tax cuts would lower revenue when Kennedy and then Reagan undertook them. But they raised revenue. They predicted economic collapse because of Reagan's policy - instead we got the greatest economic expansion in our Nation's history. And they predicted Reagan's Soviet poilcy would "start a war", and "winning the Cold War was an impossible fantasy" - they were completely wrong again, and Reagan's policies did EXACTLY what he said they would. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong - at some point you think some on the left might stand up and wonder "why am I on this side, again?"----------------------------------------------------Funkymonkey - I'm very sorry to hear about your family. That is terrible and just a crime against innocents. And I don't say we're "all good" and the're "all bad". The Soviets WERE "all bad", but the U.S., just as any other country, has done bad things, too. But there are "no absolutes"? Okay, then answer this - is it wrong for Anakin to go in on the Emperor's order and kill innocent little Jedi kids? Is it ABSOLUTELY wrong? I still haven't gotten an answer to that one. Why? Because OF COURSE IT IS. There ARE absolutes, and as much as it feels "smart" to say there are not, that idea just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
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Other than the fact that "Luke Lars" sounds kinda dumb? Also, Ben Kenobi may have done better hiding under the name Obi-Wan Smith. Obivously nobody in the Empire ever went looking for them, and when the bad guys do finally show up, they are simply looking for the Death Star plans. I know Tatooine is supposed to be an obscure planet, but jeez. Not a big deal, and I'm not a strict continuity nazi ("movie logic" has a beauty all its own) but this little item has always bugged me. But the SW movies were more about evocative characters than pure logic anyway. Random tangent... it's also interesting that Vader in Ep4 is (we now know) orbiting his home planet, and he never refers to it or goes down there... probably due to all his baggage. Man that guy had more issues than I thought.
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The BBC were wrong about Churchill over 50 years ago wrong about Kennedy 40 years ago and they were right about Reagan's tax cuts hence the recession Bush was left to deal with.
The BBC is impartial but i will agree there is a leftist leaning there...and thank god for it otherwise we are left with Fox and CNN for goodness sake. Im pleased we bring a balance there. -
LOL - Tax cuts CAUSING a recession? How would they do such a thing? You must know recessions are cyclical, right? But even then, Reagan cut taxes during America's worst economy(still ranks that way even after two more recessions) since the Depression. He cut taxes in 1981. We had an unparalleled period of prosperity until a recession hit again in 1991. Interestingly enough, the recession occured AFTER Bush Sr. went back on his "no new taxes" pledge and raised taxes again, if only slightly. Now, what was so bad about the Sandinista situation?
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May 24, 2005 3:11:22 PM CDT
One more thing about the "NOOO" thing before I become too tired
by ribbons
I suggest that the entire exchange of dialogue between Vader and Palpatine -- including the "NOO" at the end -- were intentionally subversive. If you think about all of Vader's dialogue in the OT, it's very consistent with the idea that the character is succinct, merciless, etc. He speaks like a diplomat. As much as Lucas rendered a lot of elements of the OT anachronistic with this movie -- he had to be conscious of how weird it sounded for Darth Vader to say "What about Padme? Is she okay?" Does anybody see what I'm saying here? It's reinforcing the idea of a human being somewhere underneath that costume. So while the "NOOO!" sounded out of place, once again, for a character so many are wired to think of as cold-blooded, it sounded no less so than the lines that came before it. If you hate it when people scream "NOOO" in books, movies, television, whatever, that's fine, but stop acting like Darth Vader's the first one to ever say it, the last one to ever say it, or the first one ever where it sounded cheesy. You couldn't be more ignorant as far as that goes. Lucas accomplished what he wanted to accomplish with that scene. Whether or not you agree with what he wanted to accomplish is another matter altogether.
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You seem to admit it is wrong. But is it ABSOLUTELY wrong? You still haven't answered that.
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But lets bring the topic back to intelligent SW debates. All you haters sux, ROTS ROCKS YOUR ASS, go kill yourself Lucas is a genius!!!!!
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Padme and Beru will git naked and shower and lather each other up, and the Blue Jedi Chick will lactate blue milk onto them for lube. Then Leia, dressed as Boussh, will enter the room and begin stripping until she is left in nothing but the bottoms of her slave outfit, at which point she will use the same chain ligature she used to choke Jabba to flog Padme and Beru, then the three of them shall have a steamy forbidden hot oil triumverate of sweet Lesbo intercourse, after the climax of which Anakin shall arrive and scissor all their heads off, a la Count Dooku. Meanwhile, Han Solo is catching Jedi Jungle Fever with the daughter of Mace Windu, who is in fact Lando's long-lost father. Yoda will videotape these proceedings for download on the internet. Top that.
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Finally saw it last night with my brother.
Ani: "Padme, my love for you is so full of loving love."
Padme: "Ani, only the love of my love can be as much love as your love."
Ani: "Oh lovliest of loves. The deepest love of my love can only be loved by the love of your love."
Padme: "Lovely."
We hated it. While not as bad as the abortion that was Phantom Menace or the atrocious Attack of the Clones, it was still full of awful dialogue and ridiculous character arcs.
Mace: "Palpatine needs to stand trial for his crimes."
Palpatine: "Oh Ani, I'm just a helpless old man who just turned into a ghoul before your eyes and shoots lightening out of my fingers. And I need to you to kill lots of innocent people because only if I have absolute power will democracy truly reign supreme under the iron fist of my monarchy."
Ani: "I need a defining moment to turn me evil."
Mace: "Ok, then I must kill Palpatine for that is the Jedi way. Due process is for pussies."
Ani: "Works for me. KEEEYAA!!"
Yes, they've been developing Ani as a whiny brat since the beginning, but his inner battle to finally go all evil was idiotic.
"I must know the super secret Sith trick to everlasting life in order to keep Padme alive forever. My loving love for Padme can only be expressed through absolute evil. Besides, everything I know about her tells me she approves of atrocities."
Why couldn't the jedis sense they were about to be shot in the back by thousands of clones. They can sense somebody stepping on a flower thousands of lightyears away, but a massive plot to assasinate all the jedis is too far below their radar? How does Palpatine arrive on Lava world just minutes after fighting Yodel, which was happening concurrently with Ani's and Oldy Von Moldy's fight?
The best part was cutting off the boys legs and setting him on fire. The absolute worst is him stepping off the operating table like Frankenstein's monster and yelling "NOOOOOOOOOO!" We all laughed at the same time. And why was Amidala ready to forgive Ani for murdering all those men, women and children just so they could live by the lake in Naboo, but when her kids are born she says "Fuck em," and drops dead from the lack of will to live?
Oh yeah, when Obi comes looking for Ani at Amidala's place, because he knows they're all cuddly, why does he have to ask if the babies in her tummy are Ani's? Whose would they be, Jar Jar's?
The digital effects were not that impressive, because it was just too busy. It looked like a video game. Gollum looked more real than Yodel (who looked almost 2 dimensional) and Gollum was created several years ago.
The physics at the beginning were mind boggling. Where did all the wind come from in space to blow the little gremlin droids off their ships? Jedis can pick up ships with the force, so why couldn't they just shoo away the gremlin droids (or anything else for that matter)? Why was everyone falling towards the nose of the ship when it was aiming down? They never had that problem in all the other Star Wards movies when ships were flying all over the place.
George has proven time and again that Star Wars and Empire were accidents. He has no grasp of dialogue or storytelling.Empire and Raiders were written by actual writers with skill.
People can defend this bullshit till the cows come home. The simple fact is, these new movies are not well crafted entertainment. And the folks who defend it either have lower standards for what passes as decent moviemaking, or so want to believe in The Lucas that they'll delude themselves into believing anything.
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May 24, 2005 3:29:29 PM CDT
"how many of you guys cried during the movie?" posted byby BillE
by matthooper8
I did, he fooled me again, and got my $10 bucks once again. I thought this one would make up for the other two pieces of shit. It didn't. A little better than the other two, still means it is not good enough.
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If you cannot see what was so bad, about the CIA going in to a country and overthrowing a Democratically elected left leaning government in South America because they were not allies of the USA. Then no matter how many Autobiographies and white house documents you have read you are a bona fide fucking idiot. There is no arguing with that. I didnt want to get personal but, if you cannot see what is so wrong immoral and hypocritical with that situation then your opinions count for nought.
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Where "Anakin" the name, taken literally, means "without kin," so does "Han Solo" mean "Lone Hand," which is to say that our scruffy, Kessel Run smuggler is the king of space masturbators, and I suspect that Padme is his mother, having been impregnated by Qui Gon during an off-screen detour on Tatooine in "TPM" and the infant Han being left on the desert world with Wattoo's brother, Wettle, until his sixth year, at which time he was purchased out of slavery by Ped Solo, a genteel spacecruise director whose own wife could not conceive. Freed the burden of caring for a newborn, the Royal Queen of the Naboo--in her Padme dressdown personna--was free to engage in the sweet saccharine lesbian embrace of a slick, wet naked Beru in the waters of Lake Naboo.
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Long time/First time...Anyway, I just wanted to add some thoughts about some of the moments in the film that are currently being dissected here (and elsewhere). So in no particular order: 1. "Hiding" Luke on Tatooine. For me, it's enough that Vader thinks Padme is dead (along with the child). But I think it's also a hiding scheme along the line of Poe's "The Purloined Letter" where the thing being hidden is kept in plain sight. Seems sort of elegant to me.*****2. R2's gadgets. I seem to recall R2 having quite a few tricks up his sleeve in the OT (saber-launcher, saw, smoke screen, taser). So adding a booster and an oil slick doesn't seem out of the ordinary. Is there a moment in the OT when a little lift would have helped? I don't remember one but I could be wrong.***3. Anakin's Turn. I think this is one of those things that either works for you or it doesn't, and a lot of that will have to do with your beliefs about the nature of good v. evil, free will, and a whole host of other things. I can at least tell you why it worked for me. I think the most interesting thing about the turn (something that I didn't expect) was Anakin's desperation. With Mace, he was caught between betrayal, but having a chance to save the only thing in the universe he loved, or be a jedi and destroy his father-figure. If you believe Anakin's connection to Palpatine, it makes emotional sense that he might disregard his sins (Would you turn your own father in? Kill him out of principle? Most of us, I think, would have a very difficult time, let alone if there was the additional idea that Padme could be saved). Damn, thought I had one more. Will have to save it for later. For the record, I liked the movie, but can't let some of the really bad dialogue go. I think part of the strong reaction that so many of us have is a result of the potential these PT films had, and how much of what went wrong seems like it could have been so easily avoided. At its best Star Wars is more enthralling then any other form of popular entertainment. Unfortunately, at least in the PT, we have to endure so much to get to it.
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Besides for the stupid nicknames, that post was hilarious.
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Pretty please, with sugar on top?
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You're sort of right about the effects. They were awe-inspiring, but they were busy to the point of being distracting. I do have to take issue with the Gollum/Yoda thing. First of all, WETA is not better than ILM, for a lot of reasons (I'll list them if you want, but I'd rather not). Second of all, Yoda's a little green elf. It's harder to make something that's green look real, but I think they did a good job for the most part.
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I've been displeased with ILM for many years. I think they get far too much credit, when there are artists all over the world doing better work. WETA did a far superior job creating Gollum than any of the critters in the recent Star Wars flicks. I forget who created the Reapers in Blade II (not ILM), but some of that CGI was pretty awesome.
Did you notice how they would put Temuera Morrison's head on the cgi clone troopers bodies? You could see is head not moving in coordination with the bodies.
Sorry about the stupid nicknames. Oldie Von Moldie takes me back to the MAD magazine spoof of the original Star Wars. -
May 24, 2005 4:10:31 PM CDT
TonyWilson - autobiographies and why the Sandinista situation wa
by dagan
First of all, I never once said I'm getting my information by reading "autobiographies" - that is a charge level AGAINST me, but not something I said. In fact, I haven't even read Reagan's autobiography yet, though I do plan to.--------------------------------------------------------------As for the Sandinistas, as Mr. Miyagi says, "Afraid facts mixed up." The Sandinistas were a geurilla army known as the Sandinista National Liberation Front.(FSLN). They had been fighting a corrupt dictatorship in the country, along with others. However, Moscow viewed the Sandinistas as a powerful ally, and a way to gain a foothold in Central America. The FSLN founder Carlos Fonsesca Amador was a "trusted agent"(that's a direct quote) according to the KGB files that have been declassified from that time period since the fall of the USSR. They received considerable financial support and weapons from both Moscow and Havana. The FSLN was considered so loyal that the KGB organized members into secret sabotage and intelligence gropus that could be stationed on the U.S. - Mexican border, in towns like Ciudad Juarez, Tijuana, and Ensenda - to strike targets in the United States.------------The strike leader was Manuel Ramon de Jesus Anara y Ubeda(code-named PRIM), who spend time in Moscow learnign sabotage tactics and the use of explosives. He returned to Mexico with a detailed target list, which included U.S. military bases, missle sites and oil pipelines.-----------------The Sandinistas also attempted to kidnap American diplamat to Nicaragua Turner Shelton. Luckily, he left the party he was at before the team got there, so the team shot Jose Maria Chema Castillo and took the rest of the party hostage.-----------After the Sandinistas overthrew the government, Moscow was delighted. The Sandinistas claimed they would simply install Democracy, and be only one of a group of parties running the country, but this was not their intent at all.---------------As a secret communique from the International Department of the Communist Party put it: "The FSLM is the ruling political organization. The leadership of the FSLN considers it essential to establish a Marxist-Leninist Party on the basis of the front, with the aim of building socialism in Nicaragua. At present, for tactical reasons and in view of the existing political situation in the Central American region, teh leadership of the FSLN prefers to make no public statemens about this ultimate goal."----------The new Sandinsista Interior Minister, Tomas Borge, met with a colonel in the East German secret police, the STASI - his code-name was "Fielder", as STASI files now show. In exchange for help in supressing their "domestic enemies" in country, Borge alowed the Stasi and the KGB to establish an intelligence post in his country with the goal of revolutionary expansion in Central America. Less than a year later, Borge and other Sandinistas visited Soviet Bloc capitals to learn more and solidify their ties.--------------------------The Soviet Bloc hosts briefed them on how to handle dissidents, the "necessity of brutality", and how Communism could be further spread in Central America. According to a Stasi transcript of the meeting, Horst Scheel told Borge the Sandinistas needed to lock up their domestic enemies, and they needed to pay attention to "strengthening and soidifying the organs of power, particularly the state security organs." Borge agreed. "Represseive measures have already been taken," he explained. "Democratically-elected" my ass. The Soviets then proceeded to ship uniforms, weapons and other equipment to help the Sandinistas solidify power and "spread the revolution" to other countries.-------------------------------------------------------------- All Reagan did was fight back by proxy, the same way the Soviets were doing. We shipped arms, medical supplies and other equipment to the Contras to stop the Sandinistas from establishing their secret police state. And it worked. And now Nicauraga is an actual Democracy.
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Take it outside. We're talking about more important things that the real world here.
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Your wrong completely about the sandinistas, sure you got all your rhetoric there and all your propaganda but you just cant justify overthrowing a government that won a democratic election.
The U.S didnt go to war here they did not seek justification for their actions. Which surely they would have done if anything you have put is true, your blinded by you opinions and your twisting the evidence to fit.
How do you justify the masive death toll of innocents by the CIA?
And i really dont know where you get your facts from, go read some Chomsky and some J.P Taylor, then get back to me when you have got rid of all that USA bullshit, for unfortunatly thats all you said in the last post.
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Your response is very telling, not just to me, but I'm sure to anybody else who reads our exchanges. I support my opinions with the actual facts and actual quotes from Stasi and KGB declassified files, while you have nothing but Chomskyite/Mooreish rhetoric and not a single "fact" to even point to to back your side up. Shouldn't you think twice about why you believe what you do in that case? Especially since the Left has been so fundamentally wrong throughout history as I pointed out earlier? If you'd like, I can give you the exact notes and sources for these cables and declassified files I'm talking about. What can you provide as evidence? -------------------------------- And you can't even get the basics right - the Sandinistas weren't "elected", they overthrew the former Somozan government. The USSR funded the Communist(not Democratic) Sandinistas, and we funded the group fighting them. What's wrong with that? Massive death of innocents by the CIA? Gonna have to be more specific, I have no idea what you're talking about - I doubt you do, either, but if you do, get specific and I will answer it the best I can. But I can't answer vague charges without specifics. And I have read a good deal of Chomsky, though no J.P. Taylor. Chomsky is incredibly disingenuous, and I can tell you exactly why, again, if you'd like to take this to email. ------------ So let's recap: I say what I think and provide a detailed list of factual reasons to back it up. The response back is a vague charge about "what about the CIA?" and a demand that I "read Chomsky". Brilliant. I'm sure those reading this have it easy when trying to make up their mind on this issue...
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May 24, 2005 4:39:15 PM CDT
fucknuckles - your refusal to engage or answer proves how intell
by dagan
Face it - the idea that there "are not absolutes" is just faux-intellectualism, and is provably false. It is absolutely wrong for Anakin to kill those kids. If it's not, tell me why. The earth is absolutely under my feet right now and the sun is absolutely putting out light and heat in space. The world is filled with absolutes. That may be "unfashionable" to say, but it's "absolutely" true.
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Sorry to bust your bubble, but it can't possibly be absolutely wrong, else he wouldn't have done it. You have to bracket your evaluation of it's "rightness" according to some moral framework--a moral framework that must be created, constructed, and maintained. If we are evaluating according to a moral framework of utilitarianism, it is of course wrong. But there is no stable, universal, and timeless mode of evaluating any given behavior. Just aint possible.
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The primary beauty of the OT was friendship. I think you really felt part of the team of Luke, Han, Chewie, Leia, Droids, etc., And it was here that i felt PT and AOTC didn't work. I couldn't believe in Annakin and Obi-Wan's friendship. I think ROTS finally got that back. The final scenes with Obi-Wan screaming at Annakin and Annakin just lying burning - these really got to me and i think finally George got that spark that i loved so much in OT.
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No come on, im on a talkback here im not going to spend 10 or 20 minutes writing one response to one person here i have other things to do, this is a bit of fun for me although i fundamentally disagree with you views about this Nicaraguan issue. There were elections which were overseen by 400 plus foriegn obsevers in 1984.
The elections were legitimate but the US refused to believe this fact. America's ILLEGAL paramilitary campaign of the 1980s was aimed at overthrowing Nicaragua's left-wing government.
The US persisted with its refusal to recognise the court's judgement until it was announced in 1991 that, at Nicaragua's request, proceedings for compensation would be dropped
I could sit here all day and trade facts and figures with you. But we still wont agree on any of it.
Oh and for the record i really dont like Michael Moore and i think you being rather churlish to suggest i dont know what im talking about. When i just happen to disagree with you. -
I disagree. One can do something that's wrong, if they make the choice. Something can be absolutely morally wrong, and somebody still make the choice to do it.
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What kind of friend leaves someone they once called brother melting slowly to death in lava while shouting out him, "You were supposed to be the Chosen One"? Obi-Wan should've put the guy out of his misery or rather Lucas should've written the scene better. But then Lucas reduced the Jedi to a bunch of ineffectual pawns anyway. Unintentionally funniest line in the movie: "Anakin, Palpatine is EVIL!" Uh duh.
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For Anakin, he valued what he could get by killing the children more than the lives of the children. That's his moral framework (and a moral framework is only a way of codifying values). Clearly, a moral framework that values all lives equally, which almost no moral framework does, would consider his behavior "wrong." But he is operating under a different framework, and it is the right action accordingly. Now, we wouldn't want to go and write a legal system based on it, but it is a value system nonetheless. So it is with any decision that takes consequences into account (what I mean in the subject line by acting randomly).
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So now Darth Vader has been reduced to a momma's boy who has issues about those close to him dying. Fine, except not for one of the coolest movie villains of all time. The character's motivation for going evil was poorly reasoned and developed. It needed a stronger base. Palpatine had done nothing to prove to Anakin that he could even save Padme, so Anakin is clearly an idiot. But then so is everyone in the prequels except Palpatine! No wonder the Republic fell so easily!
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It's rich that you call me churlish for suggesting you don't know what you're talking about "just because you disagree" with me - when I was RESPONDING to a message where you dismissed the facts in my argument with the wave of a hand as "propaganda" and "USA bullshit" and said I was "twisting the facts" to bolster my view - yet you provided no evidence to show why. Just a charge.--------------I don't understand why it's not okay to fund rebels figthing a dictatorial government that was put in place by and funded by the Soviet Union, and was giving them intelligence bases and a toehold in Central America for the purpose of "spreading the revolution". Many of the things I mentioned were either gleaned by U.S. spies or not known about until the KGB documents were declassified due to the fall of the Soviet Union - that's why we didn't mention some of the Mexico stuff and other things to justify our counter-funding(the USSR was funding the other side, remember). However, we knew clearly about the Soviet ties and the setting up of a Secret Police to crush the opposition and lock up dissidents. That is not a free country, and they can have all the sham elections they'd like, it doesn't change that fact. Iraq under Saddam had "elections", as well. International observors? I'm sure they did just as good a job as Jimmy Carter and his gang, which comically declared the recent "elections" in Venezuela as being "legitimate" even though there is MASSIVE evidence of fraud and wrongdoing, with independent exit polling showing a 30 point difference in the "actual result". Carter and his international cronies call the election "fair" anyway, because it's a leftist goverment, which they like, and an anti-American government, which they also like. And yes, I do agree this is "fun", even if you're completely wrong about everything. (just kidding)
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Ok, so I saw the ripped DVD today, and it was ok at times, cheezy at times, boring at times and stupid at times. Exactly what I expected. I'll buy the full DVD when it comes out, just like all the other ones, but it wasn't any better than any of the other movies, and no worse. I had fun at points. I groaned at others (The frankenstien reference was right on). I laughed at the dialog when I shouldn't have and went "Cool" at some of the effects and fight scenes. It's no great movie, but honestly, after seeing all incarnations of the other ones, neither were they. Empire came closest to a coherent story. But I still came away happy. Its like a day at Disney. Some stuff is fun, and some is stupid. But I still go back and enjoy it.
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were Shakespeare compared to these. You could at least draw a clear narrative line through the OT. These were all over the place!
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By the way, if Yoda preaches about not developing attachements, why was he so upset all the younglings were killed then but seemed to have no care if the clone soldiers died? Seemed to me he developed an attachement. Yoda was a real arsehole in these prequels!
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I contend that there is an "absolute" moral framework for many things - like the killing of innocent children. Just because Anakin desired something more than he desired to "do the right thing" doesn't make it "right". It may be "right" to his SHIFTING morality, but not to the "absolute" morality that says it's never okay to kill innocents for mere personal gain and without it being an accident. Ironically, the Sith see less in "absolutes" than the Jedi, because they, like the Communists I referenced earlier, let their "right and wrong" shift based on personal idealogical or flat out personal gain. Just because it's not technically "wrong" to him, doesn't mean that what he did was not "absolutely" wrong.------------------------ And Funkeymonkey - "Republicans" see in absolutes more than Democrats? How exactly? As if Democrats don't go all out for their own particular idealogy? That makes no sense, especially with what we've seen lately.
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I thought the movie was so cool. I'm of the opinion that if you like star wars, then you love this movie. Face it, this movie isn't a recipe for world peace, it's just a movie, with a great story, and fantastic visuals. these movies have provided some of the most prolific events in movie history, and they are what summer is all about! thank you George! Please make like six more!!!! please god please!
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By acknowledging the existence of multiple moral systems. Look at all those qualifiers you had to put on killing innocents to make it "absolutely" wrong. Your prose undermines your logic.
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Posted by Superninja---
Worst Darth Vader Ever
by superninja 2005-05-24 17:12:55
"So now Darth Vader has been reduced to a momma's boy who has issues about those close to him dying. Fine, except not for one of the coolest movie villains of all time. The character's motivation for going evil was poorly reasoned and developed. It needed a stronger base. Palpatine had done nothing to prove to Anakin that he could even save Padme, so Anakin is clearly an idiot. But then so is everyone in the prequels except Palpatine! No wonder the Republic fell so easily"..........
I just felt this post deserved to be reposted. It is dead on accurate! Vader was mysterious and scary. Now that we know what he is, he sucks.
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It's too easy to show someone turning evil for really obvious/strong reasons. It's much more interesting to see someone slip into darkness then to see them get thrown into it. Seems more emotionally true.
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From culture to culture (not to mention species to species), morality is relative. However, if you're trying to say that judged against a particular culture's morality, one can call an action absolutely good or evil, then I agree. In this case, according to Jedi morality, killing children may be absolutely wrong, but according to Sith morality it is sometimes ok. Morality does not equal truth. The only thing you can know for sure is that you exist - everything else carries degrees of doubt...
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we can also know that giant lizars are cool!
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It like like me flipping my light switch. By the way, what was Padme whining about? She knew he was a mass-murderer when she married him.
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Enter key dammit. But if an action has any positive outcomes, like say saving the lives of other people and ending a Galactic Civil War, can it be thought of as absolutely wrong? It doesn't seem to be the case. The only way that an action can be absolutely wrong is if some wrong action is done with no positive result whatsoever. And only a randomly acting person could do this.
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If it was underdeveloped and unreasoned, how can it be underdeveloped. And it's hard to argue that Vader was a "developed" character in the OT. Maybe some people prefer the thoroughly dark character, but I prefer a bit more character development
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Dammit to hell. Should be "how can it be obvious" in the above.
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that absolute morals are not all just relative. A good way is to steal something that belongs to the person claiming everything is relative and watch them instantly develop an absolute moral. Sort of a universe trait, that one. Thou shalt not steal. There are nine others where that came from.
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May 24, 2005 5:45:30 PM CDT
Revenge of the Sith is the best reviewed out of all the Star War
by jeebus
Check out this link from Rotten Tomatoes which shows that during their original release dates that reviews of the old trilogy became increasingly negative. At the very least it's interesting info. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=197859
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it's a cave which happens to have a tree growing around its mouth. Wrong again!
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Not wanting your mommy to die is not a strong enough motivation for wiping out all the Jedi and ruling the universe. Most people don't want their mommies to die. I guess I expected something more epic in his turning. It was also telegraphed very clearly what his issues were, but when he turned, it was without reasoning and like turning on a lightswitch. If he had gone insane, and not just pouty, it would've made more sense.
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I loved the grievious battle, It was fn awesome!
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In a universe where all living things benefit from the suffering and destruction of other living things, I think it's a little silly to talk about absolute morality. But hey, if you believe it, that's no fault of your own, society has spent a good deal of energy trying to convince you it's true. Superninja - if someone stole from me I would not think of it as wrong in an absolute sense. I know that the thief is playing by the rules of nature - survival of the fittest. And I play by those rules too, which means I have an instinct for self preservation, and that extends itself to protecting my property.
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If you stole a slave in order to free him, he would still not be free unless you went to a country where slavery did not exist and you would be responsible for his theft. But slavery has been determined to be morally wrong, hasn't it? Or is that just relative too?
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Like I wrote in an earlier post, the "turning" really does depend on how you feel about several things. I think it's more complicated than not wanting his mommy to die (established desire for power, allegiance to Palpatine), but if it doesn't work for you, I can't argue that it does.
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I agree completely on Anakins development. Now after seeing all the movies I feel a bit duped in that area. At the end of RoTJ we saw a sympathetic, cherub faced old man under the helmet, who seemed to truly convey his regret for what he had become, although he was on screen briefly. And with all this talk of "I know there's still good in him" well looking back on the prequels, what exactly did Anakin do that was so "good." If he had been "created" it was from evil to begin with. Apart from him sorta being a normal 10 yr old. Once he became a Padawan to Jedi, he was just a big emotional, confused wreck. Fine, this is exactly what the Sith need in him for the turn. But again, when was he so "good." Yoda, always seemed much more wise and good than any other SW characters. If Lucas had set things up in the first movie where he had done unselfish and good things, but was seduced buy the emotional, easy way, I'd buy that. Helping the Republic with the everyday chores of the Jedi is hardly enough. I also don't buy the "he was turning from the beginning." Sure, he did certain things the Jedi don't approve of and got reprimanded for it. By the middle of Ep 3, he knew what a Jedi would and wouldn't do, and said it, even reminding Windu. He never learned anything about the ways of the Sith until Palpatine made a few suggestions. If the first two movies had Palpatine counseling Anakin more and continuing to plant the seed here and there, then his slow turn would have worked for me. Otherwise, I never sympathized with the character from day one. He slaughters a Tusken camp for revenge, kills Dooku, exterminated the Younglings and eliminates the Separatists. All well and good for going to the dark side, but how are we supposed to forgive him for his past atrocities when he was all but a dysfunctional guy in need of some therapy in the first place.
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We live in a universe of multiple moral systems. Some think stealing is a crime worthy of dismemberment. In some cultures, possession is wrong. Get the picture?
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Qualifiers don't undermine it at all. The Qualifiers are the point. "In this case, this is wrong. Absolutely." There may be other cases were a wrong action with certain qualifiers is "right", or at least "grey", when it has different qualifiers or a different set of circumstances. Anakin's actions were absolutely morally wrong. But I admit that's only if you "believe" in that sort of thing, though I think most do. If you want to say there is no real right and wrong, then of course there is no "absolute" in any situation.-------------------------------------------------- I also agree it becomes trickier to believe in absolutes if you don't believe in a Higher Power that has set them down for you. If you do believe that, then there are certainly absolutes, if you don't believe that, then it is not so cut and dried. However, I'd like to think, regardless of that belief, that there ARE the "unalienable rights" that we talk about in our own Delcaration of Independence. Those are a set of "absolutes" that the signers believed in - that we are all born free, and have the RIGHT(absolutely) to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That we have the natural right to live life as we please as free entities, and our freedom should only be infringed upon by outside sources when our own freedom violates somebody ELSE's freedom. Now the idea of "what does infringing on other's freedom mean exactly" IS a grey area, and where debate is legitimate. But that doesn't change the absolute moral framework that says that we all have "natural rights" as free beings born into this existence.------------------------------------------------------ As for Carter, if you don't know he's anti-American that says more for your ability to stay informed than it does anything else. There is so much to say about this topic, but how about this to start off:.....................Soviet diplomatic accounts and material from the archives show that in January 1984 former President Jimmy Carter dropped by Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin's residence for a private meeting.
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Carter expressed his concern about and opposition to Reagan's defense buildup. He boldly told Dobrynin that Moscow would be better off with someone else in the White House. If Reagan won, he warned, "There would not be a single agreement on arms control, especially on nuclear arms, as long as Reagan remained in power."
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Using the Russians to influence the presidential election was nothing new for Carter.
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Schweizer reveals Russian documents that show that in the waning days of the 1980 campaign, the Carter White House dispatched businessman Armand Hammer to the Soviet Embassy.
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Hammer was a longtime Soviet-phile, and he explained to the Soviet ambassador that Carter was "clearly alarmed" at the prospect of losing to Reagan.
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Hammer pleaded with the Russians for help. He asked if the Kremlin could expand Jewish emigration to bolster Carter's standing in the polls.
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"Carter won't forget that service if he is elected," Hammer told Dobrynin.
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Conspiring with our chief enemy to try to influence an American Presidential election: We could have called that treason, but we didn't. You can form your own opinion.............................................................. And let me point out that, yet again, the left was wrong. A nuclear weapons treaty WAS signed while Reagan was in office, and one that was far more favorable to the interests of the free world than the broken treaties the Soviet Union had signed before, which were to their benefit. And what about this?....................."Carter panted after the Nobe Peace Prize for years, seeing it as a means of gaining official redemption for his humiliation at the hands of the voters in 1980. He lobbied quietly behind the scenes for years to get the prize, and finally met with success in 2002 when the left-wing Nobel Prize committee saw an opportunity to use Carter as a way of attacking President Bush and embarrassing the United States. The head of the Nobel Prize committee openly admitted that this was their motivation in selecting Carter. Any other ex-president would have refused to be a part of such an obvious anti-American intrigue, but not Jimmy. Here we should observe that Carter conceives himself much more as a citizen of the world than as a citizen of the United States, and I think it is highly revealing that Carter is most popular overseas in those nations that hate America the most, such as Syria, where they lined the streets cheering for Carter when he visited.".......................................................................................... I could go on and on for pages about Carter, but I shouldn't have to - it's obvious to anybody who's not a raging leftist what this guy is.
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Different ways of human exacting justice.
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The LAW is what a society decides is right and wrong. Those laws are based on underlying beliefs, but is not morality. Morality often demands that we do certain things, but the law, by and large, only tells what we shouldn't do.
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I've just thought about it a little more.
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Gentlemen, ladies, please. There is a middleground. First, for those Communist and Soviet apologists out there, I suggest you read Natan Sharansky's books "Fear No Evil" and "The Case for Democracy." Whether or not you agree with his point of view, this guy was sent to prison for his beliefs, so they are well-earned. The problem with the left wing of this country (it seems George Lucas included) is that they are still suffering from Post-Vietnam guilt. In their eyes, no military action is truly justified, and America is the source of many, if not all, wrongs in the world. On the other hand, the problem with the right is that in their eyes, America can do no wrong, has never done wrong, and will never do wrong. Well, we have done wrong. From slavery to the politics of establishing dummy dictators (as long as they weren't leftists) to the policies of Henry Kissinger (supporting oppressive leftist regimes in order to bolster regional stability). America hasn't always been right. But it hasn't always been wrong. Which leads us to the current situation. George W. Bush, in all likelihood, did fraudulantly take us to war in Iraq. That said, the War is a good thing. The left constantly says the reason there are so many radical Islamists is the intense poverty and oppression of the region. Well, it seems to me that democracy and capitalism is a pretty good way to try and fix this problem. So establishing a democracy in the center of the Middle East cannot be a bad thing. The Right needs to stop insisting that Saddam was a real threat to our country. But the Left needs to accept that the world is better off with the Iraq of today than Saddam's Iraq. It was quite interesting during the election last year that many voices on the left seemed to find Saddam more morally acceptable than Bush. There's a certain degree of insanity at work there. It may be a Palpatine-like way of looking at the world, but the facts appear to be thus: Radical Islamic fighters are going to Iraq to fight. They are not coming here, they are not attacking anywhere else at the moment. For better or worse, Bush created a battlefield to draw the Enemy out, and he did so far away. It may be twisted. But it may be for the best. What does this have to do with Star Wars? It seems that there were indeed some pointed remarks at Bush (I've seen ROTS 3 times now, and the "If you're not with me, you're my enemy" "Only a sith deals in absolutes" exchange makes absolutely no dramatic sense except that Lucas was trying to make a stab at Bush). When did things get so bad in this country? Whatever happened to Loyal Opposition? When Clinton was in office, about the worst you heard from talk radio was that he was a horny fool, a silly clown of a president. I could take that. And I laughed at the Dumb Bush jokes. Whether the Hillbilly Clinton or the Preschooler Bush, I can laugh. But listening to Air America recently I've been shocked. Bush is called a "thug" and a "murderer." That's appalling. Period. We Americans have to support our President, democrat or republican. But the point is that Bush seems to drive leftists crazy. Why else would George Lucas end his epic STAR WARS saga, which basically is the sum total of his entire life's work, with cheap shots at a current president? Lucas appears to be trying to make a comparison to Bush by equating him with either Palpatine (in which case Bush is an ultimate evil, a master manipulator with blood on his hands) or with Anakin (making Bush a puppet or someone doing horrible evil even though he thinks its for the right reasons). Why would Lucas feel the need to make this comment? Is George Bush really this important? Let me pose this question: If Al Gore or John Kerry were president, would we have gotten the exact word-for-word film that we currently have in ROTS?
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Get a dictionary. If something has qualifiers, than it cannot be absolute. You are too caught up in trying to be right to reason coherently. Part of the problem is that you are trying to defend too much territory. Of course, killing innocent children is wrong. But it needn't be absolutely wrong to condemn it. It's "wrong" enough to turn our stomachs and see that this punk is evil now. Oh and good luck with the higher power argument...after millenia of people trying, I'm sure you have it figured out
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May 24, 2005 6:05:27 PM CDT
Ancient Lights - you posted while I was composing my last messag
by dagan
I think there is an absolute right and wrong, and whether it comes from God or simply the recognition of our "inalienable"(or "unalienable" rights), it is still what it is. Now I completely agree that human beings identified those rights as "inalienable", but they are also something I think most of us can agree on - people are born and have the right to live free. You have no right to stop them from living free except when their free acts are limiting the freedom of others - that's the only time "society" should step in, and that's something we "resort" to as a result. You will say, "but some people don't agree wtih the inalienable rights, so it's not absolute". But I will say the "absolute correctness" of those rights is not dependent on what individuals think about them. Somebody can be wrong, right? If they don't think those rights are correct, then their thinking doesn't make the rights any less "absolute", it simply makes them wrong. No doubt there are those that think people shouldn't be free. But that doesn't make them right. I acknowledge we disagree, but I have to believe the rights of people to live free are absolute - absolute and obviously "right".
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I think Lucas' point about Vader was the commonness of evil. How little it takes for someone to become a reprehensible human being to serve their own needs. That is a very worthwhile message, but it was in a poorly reasoned, executed and morally confused package.
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cannot be absolute if there are conditions under which that freedom can be revoked. Any qualification, "except when their free acts impinge," renders the term "absolute" meaningless.
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Qualifiers, in this case, mean a certain, exact situation. "In this exact instance(which is what the qualifiers are describing), it is absoltely wrong for Anakin to kill these kids." In another situation(described by different qualifiers), it may not be. I don't see the hang up. And as for the Higher Power thing, I wasn't entering that into the argument, or trying to argue for the existence of a higher power at all. If I was, I would've said more about it than a sentence. I plainly defended the other part. I only mention the Higher Power in that if there IS a "Higher Power", then there certainly are Absolutes. That's clear. I then only argued and talked about a situation in which a HIgher Power wasn't there or wasn't clearly there - and how there could still be absolutes in such a case.
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You're just wrong about conditions. Conditions are just describing a very specific, exact situation - "in this situation, this is wrong." In anoter specific situation, it is not.
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It's called a social contract.
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May 24, 2005 6:15:19 PM CDT
So you've replaced God's scripture with founding father's script
by philconnors
Tell me, do animals have the inalienable right to be free? Let's start tearing down the zoos and farms!
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I understand conditions fine. But if every situation has to be evaluated according to its conditions, then what is the point of saying something is absolutely wrong, rather than very, very wrong? The thing I like about Anakin's turn is that it is very, very wrong, but also sort of understandable. If it is absolutely wrong, then I see no way to have sympathy.
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and many of the signers of our Declaration frequently referred to God in their writings, so the former begat the latter.
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How is Anakin's turn understandable? He couldn't even be sure that Palpatine was telling the truth. Palpy didn't even prove he created Anakin, just SAID he did. Even a morally challenged half-wit should want some kind of evidence before slaughtering every single one of your potential allies ya'd think.
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I was not saying that law and morality are interchangeable, if you read your post, you were making the mistake.("morales (sic) are what society has decided are right and wrong").
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May 24, 2005 6:22:45 PM CDT
Yeah - just like modern politicians are always tossing the G wor
by philconnors
Thankfully, our most influential founding fathers believed in humanity's reason to figure stuff out like government and laws rather than rely on divine inspiration...
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"reason" meaning brain power i.e. thinking.
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The thing that makes it understandable to me is his desperation. He will do ANYTHING that has a chance of saving the one thing he cares about. In my own experience with relatives dying, I can understand doing ANYTHING if it has the chance to save someone's life. That's not saying that I would kill kids to do so, but it has a degree of emotional resonance that I find compelling.
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Funny about those Ten Commandments and Moses statues all in our lawgivers institutions, then. Freedom based on an authority other than government and kings is not of a humanist origin.
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I did notice how Temeura Morrison's head was grafted onto CGI bodies in 'ROTS,' and it indeed stuck out like a sore thumb. I can't necessarily cast aspersions on ILM though, because anybody who's seen documentaries of the prequels being made knows that Lucas likes to rearrange shots according to his whims. So whatever. But I still do think Yoda looked good. His clothes didn't look convincing, but then again, Gollum wore a rag around his junk. I guess Gollum should probably get more credit because he was computer animated onto a real background (although with another person as a graph), whereas Yoda was most of the time, if not all of the time, as real as his surroundings.
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But isn't legislating a speed limit just a symptom of some underlying belief, even if it as mundane as a speed limit. I am no lawyer, but if we don't believe that a law makes life better, in accordance with some framework for understanding what that means, then what does it do? And if that is the case, isn't the law a manifestation of morality? These are real, not rhetorical, questions.
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I can lie to my wife about how much beer I drank last night, but that's not against the law. But it's wrong to lie unless there is a compelling reason to right? So this would seem to be a case where the law and morality are not co-extensive.
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Our laws and government our actually based on English common law - but don't take my word for it. Just go read the works of Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin. They can debunk the idea that our nation has a Judao-Christian heritage far better than I.
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Is that Anakin is such a moron. Truly. We all knew he would become evil, but did we know he was so stupid?
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I felt like he walked into it with his eyes (relatively) open. Again, as I have said before in this TB, not trying to say anyone is wrong for not buying Anakin's turn, but I do think it is more complicated that saving Padme. If you don't think so, that's not your fault of course, it's Lucas's. It worked for me. I, for one, felt like Anakin made the decision to turn for the abilities it would grant him. Furthermore, he understood the consequences of that decision and carried them out. He already demonstrated the cold-blooded killer gene in AOTC, so it seemed reasonable to me.
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that the balcony scene was painful. One reason the Han/Leia romance worked is because they hardly ever talked about it. And when they did, it was short senteces.
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That the government should not be allowed to make an official religion, which is what caused so much trouble back in England. Not that religion was to be banned from government institutions. They'd held church in state buildings, appointed clergy to positions in government.
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I see where you are coming from. I take back my comments about it not being a reasoned turn. The pieces were there, I guess I didn't like the characterization.
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Not saying the films are of equivalent artistic merit, but how different is Vader's turn from Corleone's? I guess they seem quite similar to me, so if someone who doesn't see the Vader turn could use this as an example, I'd enjoy to see it.
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So mass-murdering the sandpeople didn't do it for ya huh? But then, this IS the same girl who wills herself to die leaving her twin infant children in the hands of two ineffectual Jedi.
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For something Fredo didn't really mean to have happen. Just sitting home sick thinking about SW today.
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I was thinking that while watching the film, and wishing that they'd chosen someone more mature to play Anakin. Watching Hayden do his James Dean impression made me root for the upcoming lava scene!
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That's the single biggest problem in the PT for me. I like Portman in anything else, but man did she deliver some rocks in this one. Bad acting + bad writing=embarassing for everyone.
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So it's not like he went over to the "other side."
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I like how Palpatine tells him the story to convince him he can have this power. Then after he does all this evil stuff, Palp says, "uh, yeah, we MIGHT be able to do it if we work together, but there's no guarantee" and Anakin doesn't bat an eye.-----------Seeing it for the second time tonight Digitally. And only because the wife, one kid and good friend haven't, but that's it. And after reading all stuff for the past six days, I'll be looking at everything, lol.
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Perhaps redundant because of the OT, but it would've solved several problems for me. 1) It would've made Obi-Wan the hero to root for instead of flip-flopping Anakin which was sorely needed in this film. Also would've added poignancy to him staying on Tattooine to watch over Luke. 2) It would've painted Padme in a better light for her to turn away from Anakin after his displayed mass-murderer characteristics in II. Also her desire to keep her own children away from him instead of dying from the vapors. 3) Would've created real tension between Anakin and Obi-Wan (sorely missing from the last fight). 4) Would've given Anakin a real reason for selfishness and hatred when he finally cuts lose - everyone has turned against him (as they should have). 5) Would've given Anakin's saving of Luke in ROTJ an even more redemptive quality and message of love and forgiveness.
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Since we're supposed to believe Palpy manipulated the midichlorians to create him.
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The basis for english common law was created long before Christianity came to England - at least according to Thomas Jefferson, whose essays I'm getting most of my info from. But I agree with you, Judeo-Christian morality certainly did shape their beliefs, as much as classic western philosophy did. Hell, it's shaped my beliefs, and I certainly wouldn't consider myself either a Jew or a Christian.
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I'll buy that one! "It ain't the way I wanted it! I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!"
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If Palpatine is the smartest person in the SW universe things aren't looking up!
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As a Libertarian, I believe in it, and am not sure, Funkymonkey, who here was arguing otherwise - though you acted as if a bunch of people were clamoring for it in your post. That being said, I think the current ACLU holy war is quite a stretch. The Founders were obviously saying we should have no state religion, that's what "establishment" in the First Amendment means(it's a verb there). Their writings also show this. ----------- So I have no compulsion to have any kind of state sponsored religion. But it's also one hell of a stretch to go around asking for city seals to be changed, even if they have historical signficance and other such things the ACLU is doing. And they're only attacking Christianity - a town North of Los Angeles has a Muslim emblem on its seal and we haven't heard a peep from them. ----------- Then there is the whole "trying to sue to stop Bush from being inaugurated with his hand on the Bible" stuff. "Those are the rules," I've heard people say. It's in the Constitution. Well, no it isn't, and if that was so, why did George Washington get sworn in putting his hand on his Masonic Bible? The guys that WROTE THE RULES thought it was okay, so you're obviously interpreting them incorrectly. And then there's the fact that the Founding Fathers had daily prayers before Congress. Also take a look at the first Thanksgiving Day Proclamation issued by George Washington while he was President, setting the day as a Holiday. The document is all about "thanking God" and the almighty - the Founding Fathers set up an offical Holiday to "thank God." Look it up on the internet and read it sometime. ------------------------------------------------------------ So I believe in the separation of Church and State - they obviously didn't want to start a Church religion. I also believe Government by humans should be based on human logic and reasoning, if only because that's something we should be able to ALL agree on as a basis, whereas that's not the case with any religion. But even so, the ACLU and others have taken the intent WAY too far from what it originally was.
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persecuting other denominations. That was the concern of the time because it had been happening in Europe and their grandparents wanted to escape it. Besides, I don't know of any Christians (myself included) who want a theocracy, although the ACLU certainly has an anti-Christian fervor bordering on the religious!
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A tip of the hat also needs to be given to John Williams, who continued to dance around the digital imagery to produce another unique Star Wars score. His work has been just as important as Lucas' during this journey. Full review of Ep III soundtrack can be found at www.scorenotes.com
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I loved episode 3, but unlike a lot of posers, i dont plan on taking back my original statement that epiodes 1 and 2 sucked balls. Its too bad Lucas didnt choose to make Revenge of the Sith first and use episodes 2 and 3 as an opportunity to tell the stories of Leah and Luke growing up. Is it too late for episode 3.5?
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http://www.tonight.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=2532212 ..........I mean, I totally enjoy ROTS and all... but I personally wish he had made this decision before ROTS (and definitely before AOTC) so we could have gotten a classier, more balanced actor.
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They should've used the scroll to set up the political situation that led to the Clone Wars and told the backstory through dialogue with the characters over the three films. Should've dumped us right in the middle of the Clone Wars. No one cared about all the senatorial crap and trade agreements with a teenage queen. All Lucas did was reveal his limitations as a writer.
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i love this movie it was great when it needed to be and somber when it needed to be i mean the bottom line is this ...was i entertained the answer is yes , my only gripe is this, throughout all 3 movies there were no real stand up and cheer type moments nothing that amounted to vader throwing the emperor down the shaft or the destruction of both death stars, overall a solid film macdiarmid should get an oscar for his performance i thought he was brilliant ,subtle yet overwhelmingly evil an intergalactic hannibal lecter....thoughts?
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Personally I found Anakin's turn to the Dark Side to be profoundly complicated and reflective of real life decisions. To me, if his decision to turn had been simply based on one motivating factor it would have played very un-real and fake. In this I believe many fans and talkbackers are missing the entire point. Consider:
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How to destroy the Star Wars series in (Episode)1, (Episode)2, (Episode)3 steps.
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how the hell do you do those bullet points in your post?
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Been thinking more about the "childhood" theme...looking at the films from a nostalgic point of view...but it's probably a little more than that. All of us have gone to a film, not knowing what to expect,then being completely blown away. Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Matrix..the list goes on and differs for everyone. But it's the sequels that really grab you because you the expectations are so great and you really want to recapture (or possibly enhance) the feeling you had for the original. The problem is, it will NEVER happen. One of the most memorable moviegoing experiences I ever had was sitting in the theatre in the summer of 1980 just moments from the start of ESB. The few minutes before it started, that was the best time. The anticipation was incredible. What would happen? Would the special F/X be better, will anyone important die? Remember this was back in the day. Spoilers were virtually nonexistent, few preview photos, no chat rooms to discuss the film, just idle speculation with a few friends. We had no clue about what we were about to see. Just a BRAND NEW STAR WARS! And that was enough. Did it completely recapture the magic of the first? Not even close. ESB was certainly a better film (still my all time favorite) but the feelings were different. And it has been that way with every film since. I think people so desperately want to feel whatever they felt before. And when it doesn't happen...a new hater is born.
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I can think of plenty of sequels that I like better, and in some cases much better, than their predecessors. Aliens, Terminator 2: Judgment Day, Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan, and The Road Warrior are a few examples. Your three examples weren't surpassed in my opinion though.
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Did anyone ever stop to think that the "wooden" acting might just be the manner in which Jedi carry themselves? Look at Obi-Won in ANH, he was a very serious proper speaking person. If you look at it that way then it seems more understandable why all the Jedi seemed so stiff. Also, Padme and Anakin's dialogue in ROTS and AOTC was intended to be that way. In AOTC they were hiding and fighting their true feelings thus the awkward behavior and dialogue. And the silly dialogue from ROTS, who doesn't say stupid mushy stuff when they haven't seen the person they love in a long time. Cut the prequels some slack. ROTS is the best Star Wars movie of all time and I am seeing it again Thursday, everyone should see it as many times as possible so it continues to kick ass at the box office.
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May 24, 2005 11:44:19 PM CDT
"What have I done??!!!" "You are fulfilling your destiny Ani!"
by rivero
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"You were the chosen one"
"Are you threating me master Jedi"
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Is Powermetal1 actually saying, please and thanks. Were his last two post non hate spewing, unsexually linked normal posts? Now I have seen everything, someone must have stolen is screen name again.
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ROTS was one of the most fulfilling experiences I have ever had...I cannot complain at all, it exceeded my expectations.
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There is still good in you, I knew it. lol
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I agree, a new Star Tours would freakin rock the hizoo. Even the wait is awesome, walking past the droids and what not. And $172 Million al-fuckin-ready? Holy turd-burglars-Batman! ......... And to get into a spot o' politics, as nasty as abortion is, it's still 100% necessary because of rape, and because certain people don't want to allow good, effective sex education classes in our schools. Abstinence only works 100% of the time until it doesn't... GO BIRTH CONTROL... Aint nuthin better than a bitch on the pill (who you know is clean, of course)...
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May 25, 2005 1:34:33 AM CDT
Lucas owes a lot to Williams. When Obi-Wan & The Boga splash int
by orionsangels
I can't wait to see the DVD, if they add anymore Jedi getting killed across the galaxy, extending the scene. Remember like when the TPM DVD showed more podracer introductions, extending the scene. Also after Anakin gets his arm and legs cutoff, listen to Williams music. It's so tragic and gut wrenching. William's deserves an Oscar!
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May 25, 2005 2:00:29 AM CDT
Orionsangels, John Williams will be regarded as one of the great
by krullboy
If you really want an inside into how he composes music using "leitmotif" and other Wagnerian concepts, check out the SE soundtracks that came out in 1997. Each soundtracl inlcudes a booklet that analyzes every piece of music. I actually used this as a source for a research paper, so it is a quite reputable source of information.
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I agree that he will be regarded as one of the greatest composers of the 20th Century. No question. With respects to Star Wars... all of his scores have been superior even when the movies themselves may have faltered. I've been listening to the RoTS score non-stop and it keeps getting better and better. Much like the movie which is so layered with meaning that with each repeat viewing I absorb more. The movie literally rips at your heart. I love it. Lucas redeemed. Lucas redeemed!!
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I wanted these films to be good. I was hoping I would be entertained. Wooden acting is not a stylistic choice because that's the way the Jedi are. It's because fine actors who have proven themselves in other roles were badly directed. If you want a good example of stoic acting with not a lot of emotion, check out the sword master in The Seven Samurai. He commanded the screen and spoke volumes without opening his mouth. Ewan McGregor is the only one in the films to rise above what he was told to say and do.
The ideas behind the character's actions may have been good ones, but the execution was a failure. I didn't care about Anakin from the beginning. He did nothing to make me feel for him. We can blame little Jake Lloyd or Hayden, but ultimately the fault is George's. And when did anyone tell Ani he was the chosen one until Obi Wan yelled it at the end? None of his actions earned him respect. From the beginning he did what he wanted and then whined about it. He was never noble in his actions.
The folks who love the films can love it, and that's fine. The "haters" and "apologists" are coming at the films from a different perspective. Most people I know didn't like it, but I do have one friend who enjoyed them all and will explain why they were good films. Is there some connection that he's also the only one of my friends who still buys the toys at age 35? Maybe he still has that childhood part of his brain that can enjoy certain things that I can't.
My thing is, I wanted to enjoy these movies, and I didn't. And I truly believe they could have been done well if George had allowed people with actual storytelling abilities to be involved and not just cared about how many pixels he could render. I'm sure he's a totally nice guy, but he hasn't offered anything to moviemaking but technology since 1981. He even went back and turned his "movie from the future," THX, into a "movie from the present." He destroyed it with the pointless added shots of the city, the jackoff machine, and rabid baboons. The only thing left for him to do is re-write the epilogues to American Grafitti to let us know that Terry the toad wasn't MIA, and John Milner wasn't killed in a car crash. -
Darth Thoth, I have been doing the same. The score, especially the Buddhist monk-esque chant on Track 6, and the power of Track 10, is incredible. They are both operatic. Heck, even the music to when Sidious arrives on Utapau (Track 13) is incredibly moving. That brings into focus the fact that ROTS is probably more different than any of the other SW films. The closeups of the eyes, the zooming in on the feet of the snow/clone troopers when they stop to kill Ki Adi Mundi, the scene of Anakin and Padme looking at each other from across the city, ANAKIN CRYING after slaughtering the Separatists (FUCKING AWESOME MOMENT), the juxtaposition of Padme's death and Vader's "birth", the dream sequences. ROTS strikes a chord BECAUSE it is different. I know I have been labled a Lucas apologist, but I really believe the light hearted feel of TPM was done on purpose to contrast the "bowels of hell" feel of ROTS. For example, compare the image of Ani hugging Shmi, then fast forward 13 years to Ani being comforted by the most evil man in the galaxy. People may hate what he did, but there was method to Lucas' madness, and the gut wrenching experience that is ROTS is evidenced by that.
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May 25, 2005 2:45:24 AM CDT
Star Wars Box Office: Revenge of the Sith grossed $ 14.3 million
by krullboy
$14 million on a Monday?????? Only positive word of mouth would get people out like that!! Plus, we still have Memorial Day weekend!! I hope that ROTS stays number one over "Madagascar" and Adam Sandler. I can see it now: MOM: "Well kids, lets see a movie about a bunch of animals that talk!!" KIDS: "Fuck off mom, I want to see a movie filled with death, violent afterbirth, decapatations, 3rd degree burns, satanism, and a creepy old man/youg man perverted relationship--Star Wars Ho!! Now get us some Laffy Taffy and shut the Fuck up". THAT is how you rape a childhood.
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May 25, 2005 2:46:59 AM CDT
SORRY, cut off: " World-wide total is $ 329.2 million dollars"
by krullboy
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Star Wars fans are like no other fans. They all see the same Star Wars movies, but they all have their own opinions. They are passionate about the world that Lucas and his creative team at ILM have built. The fans all have their favorite scenes and moments. The cantina scene in the original, the duel between Luke and Vader in Empire, or the pod race in The Phantom Menace. Still, there is one moment in the entire Star Wars saga (especially the last three) that means the most to Star Wars fans around the world: The moment when Anakin has completely transformed into DARTH VADER. It's the main reason that we Star Wars fans have sat through these films. Sure, we've enjoyed the other aspects of the ride, but it is this one moment that we've all been anticipating for the last 6 years or the last 30 years, depending on when we all became fans. The build-up of Anakin into Darth Vader has been tremendous in the last six years. And it wasn't just in the last six years either. In the original Star Wars, Alec Guiness tells Luke just a hint of what happened to the future Jedi's father. It is a story that we just couldn't wait to hear more of. And now, FINALLY! The mystery of Anakin's fate is nearing the end of a very long, long journey. Now we get to see his painful decline from the Jedi to his raging ascent to the Dark Side. The duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan is the stuff story legends are made of. Anakin's horrible, agonizing deformation at the hands of Obi-Wan is an incredibly powerful moment. Perhaps one of the most powerful moments in the entire saga. The only moment that could possibly be more powerful and meaningful to Star Wars fans is Anakin's final transformation into Darth Vader. I had chills running up my spine when Anakin, in gut-wrenching pain, is being fitted for the Vader black armor. He had fear in his eyes even as the face plate was lowered onto his charred head. I had even more chills when the last, and final, piece of the iconic face mask was fitted onto Anakin's face. Anakin, now totally decked out in one of the most familiar movie villain guises of all time, stands upright and snaps out of his braces, like some kind of retarded Frankenstein's monster. I didn't mind too much. It was obvious Lucas wanted to evoke that Frankenstein image. Stupid? Yes, a little bit. Then, Vader wails one of the most pathetic cliche movie lines in history, "NOOOOOOO!" I was shocked. Is this the climactic moment that I've waited nearly thirty years to see? Was Lucas out of his fucking mind? Yes, apparently he was. I can respect other people's opinions and I can see how they liked this film and there are many things to like about it, but this one moment, THE defining moment of the entire saga, was absolutely, unquestionably pathetic! Thanks George. Thanks a bunch for taking what could've and should've been the most awesome climactic moment in movie history and turning it into one of the most uninspired, cliche, laughable, and downright disrespectful moment in this entire saga! As Robert DiNiro said in Copland... "YOU BLEW IT!" It was a slap in the face to all of us that deserved a lot more than this stupid childish moment. It ruined the film for me and you should be ashamed of yourself. We Star Wars fans made you the rich prick that you now are. We Star Wars fans deserved better than this this. SHAME ON YOU GEORGE LUCAS!
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May 25, 2005 3:35:46 AM CDT
Fine, so maybe rape isn't THAT big a deal when it comes to pregn
by iamnicksaicnsn
But we still need better sex education, and need to get off the abstinence only road. And I'm definitely going to see this movie memorial day weekend... probably a marathon of Star Wars...
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Seems as if many were disappointed by Vaders "NOOOOOO!". Frankly, I do not understand why. Because it wasn't Vader (at least not the one we have come to know and love in the OT) that cries out to heaven. It was Anakin. It was the last part of the good person he once was, because at that point he had lost everything else: He had lost his fellow jedis, he had lost his friend and mentor, Obi Wan, he had lost his mother. All that was left of the person named Anakin was his love for Padme. Realising that she had died took away the last reason for Anakin to exist. His "NOOOOO!" is not just grief and pain for the loss of Padme. It is the moment where Anakin truly dies (to be resurrected in Ep VI). Only then the transformation to Darth Vader (the one we know) is complete.
Makes perfect sense to me. So, no reason to complain. Thank you, George Lucas. -
May 25, 2005 3:42:04 AM CDT
Fucking A Fru_Solo, thank you for espousing the whole concept to
by krullboy
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Thanx! But it isn't more than my personal opinion. My interpretation of that particular scene, which might be wrong. Maybe GL had other reasons to let it play out like this. That's a question only GL can answer.
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May 25, 2005 3:56:00 AM CDT
Fru_Solo, as crazy as it sounds, I felt sorry for Vader when he
by krullboy
I got the feeling you get when you get dumped and the cold, hard reality sets in that that part of your life is over. That part of that scene really affected me emotionally.
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Hm, the scene which drove tears to my eyes was the one when Anakin enters the room with the younglings, but I couldn't tell you why it was that particular scene that touched me the most.
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really got me too. It connected the two trilogies (haters forget that Anakin looked at the binary sunset in AOTC before he killed the sand people), and was also a kick in the balls telling you that, great as the ride has been, Star Wars is over. Powerful stuff, and I could not believe the sniffles and tears I saw in the theater. Incredible film experience.
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What I object to is the delivery of "NOOOOOOOO!" It was shit. That wasn't the sound of grief and pain. That was James Earl Jones in the sound booth doing take 7 of 20 and George picking the campiest one. Darth Vader is one of the greatest movie villains of all time and his defining moment of absolute loss was reduced to McBain screaming "MENDOOOOZZZZAAA!"
Don't tell us who love movies, we don't get it. It's because we "get it," that these prequels have disappointed us so much.
During the whole movie, the only time I felt bad for anyone was at the end during Padme's funeral, when I saw Oscar nominated Keisha Castle Hughes from Whale Rider, reduced to a 3 second non speaking role as the Queen of Naboo. Lucas didn't even have the respect to put Temuera Morrison in a clone uniform to shoot his scenes. He just cut and pasted his head on cgi bodies. -
May 25, 2005 4:26:46 AM CDT
Phloton, I am not wishing this on you or anyone on this TB. . .
by krullboy
but if your family, friends, and your soul were destroyed by actions of your choosing, what WOULD you expect someone to say? I have been to many funerals, and people yell "no", wail, get violent, and are hysterical all the time. Lucas's whole point of the prequels was to show Vader's humanity, his roots as a fallen angel. I am one of the few people that don't watch the Simpsons, but if that section is the reason why you hate ROTS, I wonder what your expectations are for other aspects of your life? Come on man, it is a movie!! Lighten Up!
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So, to you, Phloton, it is the delivery, not the "NOOOO!" in itself. To others (as you can read above) it is actually the "NOOOO!", no matter how it would have been delivered.
Could the delivery have been done better? Maybe.
But: Could it have been delivered to be more consistent to what Darth Vader sounds like (in the OT)? I would dare to say: Probably not.
A poster suggested to give the "NOOOO!" more bass. Fine, that might have added depth and drama. But would it still have sounded like Darth Vader?
But certainly I can see the point in sacrificing consistency for drama. -
...the delivery of "no" was not filled with any kind of emotion at all. It was a guy in a suit standing there, with and ADR'd "no," that didn't come from the pit of anyone's soul. And I have heard authentic grief, when my dad died. There was not even a hint in this movie of an actual emotion, except from Obi Wan. There was no drama in these movies for me or most of the people I know. When people defend the films, I mostly get that they defend the intents and ideas of the films. For me, those ideas were executed poorly. The folks on these talk backs can argue back and forth but it's clear that no one is going to change their opinion because of what they read. That's fine. I wish I could've enjoyed these films like the one friend of mine does. I'll just continue to enjoy the first two of the original trilogy, and despise the rest. They could have, and should have been better in my opinion.
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is highly individual. It's not solely depending on the delivery but essentially depending on the recipient. What might sound authentic to one person, might seem exagerated to another. And actually (at least to me) the reason for a talkback like this is not to convince any opponents of one's own opinion. It is a form of sharing. Sharing thoughts and sharing feelings - that might show to others aspects, they had not yet considered. And as Star Wars is not of vital importance for the survival of the human race I can't see the point in inflating this whole discussion to the level of a political debate. You don't like, ROTS? Fine with me. You don't like any of the prequels. Still fine with me. But accept that some people might like ROTS, some people might like the prequels, because their reception of the movies is different than yours. Different, not better.
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Then sign the Petition!
http://www.petitiononline.com/aunycxvc/petition.html -
if you hated the film, don't waste your time posting on this board, don't go and see it again, actively discourage your friends and family to see it, don't buy the DVD or any of the merchandise.- Just don't post some piece of shit on here showing yourself up to be a cunt. Get over it, its a film.
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Your question: IF the clone troopers in the PT are the stormtroopers in the OT then how did they go from skilled jedi killing soldiers (PT)to unable to shoot straight, banging head on Death Star doors, pieces of crap (OT) in the space of about 18 yrs? Apart of Krullboys answer (which makes perfectly sense, especially considering the scene in ANH where Luke and Leia meet the first time) there could be another explanation: The cloners ran out of Jango's original DNA (he's dead, no more fresh supply), so they had to take DNA from a clone: And the copy of a copy... ;)
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I think it's obvious that the troopers in the OT are meant to be conscripts, ie real people, not clones. For one, they don't speak kiwi...20 years after the clone wars the clones would probably have aged beyond their best before date. And as for the stormtroopers being crappy: I think that's because they don't have much training, and they probably don't do much fighting, at least not until ANH. The imperial army is probably just meant to be intimidating, thus keeping the local systems in line through fear. BTW, the clone troopers probably aren't that good either, the reason they overwhelmed the jedi was because they outnumbered them, and took them by surprise.
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Y'know I've always had a soft spot for End of the World movies. And honestly most of them suck to high heaven! Really. But I still love them. I have a friend that just enjoys the hell out of really bad martial arts movies. A friend that loves french romance movies(!) and other friends that sincerely love other obscure genres that I simply don't "get". But you know what, that's us people! We love a movie series that isn't great Film. It has never been great acting, or great drama, or great romance. It is what it is and it is the best at what it is. This is OK. Sure it is fun to crap all over an independant filmakers work, what OTHER movie has TWO talkback sections on AICN??
I can't remember one. Ever.
You'd have to be an idiot to think Star Wars is perfect. It isn't.
I was 11 years old when Star Wars opened in theaters. My son is now 11. He couldn't sleep ALL week thinking about seeing Star Wars. He has memorized the entire Star Wars history from the Databanks. We were at Toys R Us at Midnight for toys. I was overwhelmed when the scroll started, the fact that Star Wars was coming to a close and my son was there with me, the same age I was when the journey started, brought tears to my eyes. Star Wars is more than a movie to me and it always will be. But dominate my life it does not. Yes, I cring at the dialogue. I missed a Han/Luke/Leia chemistry in the prequels - but that only serves to illuminate how freaking special that chemistry was in the first place.
This isn't a basher or hater hate post, go ahead and slam the movie, tear it apart. Passion for these films runs high and only serves to prove my point. Heck, my friends and I and my son and I do the same thing. But it doesn't change in one iota the love I have for this series, in total. And the respect and admiration I have for the most successful independent filmaker of any generation. -
To try and answer the question that was raised about clone troopers. According to the official Databanks (which have been translated to me by my 11 year old son, who has time to read and memorize that stuff) at the end of AOTC the decision was made to start cloning from other stock other than just Jango. In addition, at the start of the First Galactic Empire, regional governors were given the power to conscript forces from the local systems (a draft really). So by the time of ANH the Empirial forces were a hodgepodge of skill levels, mainly focused on volume and not skill.
My own personal theory is that the force works to protect those it is strong in as well, which partially accounts for Luke and Leia's ability to not be shot or blown out of space or get the hyperdrive working at just the right time. :) -
As Fru_Solo and I have been explaining, the monotone "NOOOOOOOO" is obviously deliberately underplayed by JEJ on Lucas's direction. It is the final dying gasp of Anakin Skywalker as he truly turns to the darkest pits of the dark side, self hatred, and slavery to Palpatine. How do you expect a passionate, pits of soul scream? He is lost now, his soul is lost...the fact that his "nooo" is so lifeless is indicative of how much he has LOST, how far he has fallen, and how much Padme meant to him.
In those circumstances, how can you expect a passionate, soul-scream? Lucas played it exactly as it should be, a dying gasp by Anakin as he becomes Vader, the voice modulator filtering out any remnant emotion. We should all be grateful for Lucas having the balls to stepup and make such a tragic PG-13 film, I never saw that heart-wrenching failed love story stuff coming and its everything it should have been and more. Padme's love was his only anchor to the light side ever since in AOTC he had basically turned already with the "I killed them all, I HATE THEM, one day I will learn to stop people from dying...I should be all powerful".
The turn was perfect imo, all the nitpickers need to watch TPM and AOTC again, then see ROTS at least 3 times to see the deep nuanced sublties of the Great FLanneled Ones vision. In the words of Palpy..."Oh...I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational, when your hater friends arrive..." -
Thanx for mentioning me. I had not read your first explanation before, otherwise I would have spent my time on other subjects ;) For instance the things about ROTS that left me unsatisfied. Let me put one thing clear first: I love ROTS. To me it is almost perfect. Almost. Because I had a hard time to buy Anakins turn. Although plausible I found the build-up (in ROTS) rather weak. For example: When Palpatine reveals his true identity to Anakin, how can Anakin still trust him after having witnessed (or better having been involved in) how Darth Sidious got rid of his former apprentice Count Dooku? And this is only one of the mandatory questions, Anakin should have asked himself, to make the right decision. With the setup from AOTC such a problem could have been easily avoided: Instead of killing Dooku because Palpatine told him to, Anakins motivation could have been that he found out (or was tricked into believing), that Dooku had hired the Tusken Raiders to kidnap his mother and was finally responsible for her death. That way Palpatine would not have needed to betray his former apprentice (at least not openly, because he could still have been the one to feed Anakin with such an information). Another thing I would have done differently: I would have scripted the plot in such a way, that Anakin gets kicked out of the Jedi Order, because the high council finds out about his liaison to Padme - which also would have led to the possibility, that the Jedi would take away his kids, to train them as Jedi. Such a plot would have made Anakins betrayal more believable.
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Anakin didn't know that Dooku was Palpatine's apprentice at that time, Palpatine hadn't revealed himself yet, and he never did reveal that Dooku was his apprentice, only we as the viewer know that.
The build-up is perfect and picks up exactly from where AOTC left off, he wants more power, we wants to stop people from dying, and he promised his mother he wouldnt' fail again. Enter in another premonition just like when his mother died, he tried to be good by asking Yoda for help, that didn't go anywhere, he tried to be good by telling Mace, but he thought Mace would do the right thing...he wanted to save Padme and still be a Jedi..but Maces's vigilante justice forced Anakin to choose...that he must not loose Padme at any cost. And so it was. And the turn was not really complete till the "nooooo" scene, thats why the Emperor was smiling. And the turn started to break even in ESB, there was still good in him. Padme was right. George seems to be inserting alot of IRONY into this series, and one of the biggest ironies is that Palpatine had intended and been trying to kill Padme since TPM and again in AOTC, and so the best way Anakin could have saved her was by killing Palpatine and bringing balance that way, then having Padme suceed him as Chancellor, and ruling the galaxy with his wife as the Chosen one... -
Oh, well, I had assumed that the Jedi (including Anakin) had known about the "Sith-Nature" of Count Dooku. But I must have gotten this one wrong. Seems as if I had to watch AOTC again (I tried to watch Ep I & II at home right before the screening of Ep III, but I had to leave Ep II before the events on Geonosis took place. And obviously after Ep III I went directly to Ep IV ;) ). But I still think that the kicking out of Anakin would have improved the movie, even if only slightly ;)
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and it was good. I'm a TPM hater, and indifferent to AOTC. It was better than the first two (not saying much). I had a few nit-picks, but I liked it. I didn't love it, it didn't blow me away; but I didn't hate it either. The NEGATIVE first: I feel it suffered a little from the set up. By that I mean, as with the first two movies, I simply don't find the "Roger, Roger" robots interesting or feel that they are intimidating to our heroes. The Darth Vader as Frankenstien's Monster thing was a little silly. I'm a bit pissed that they killed off Padme, seeing as in ROTJ, Leah remembers her mom being very distant and sad. There were a few other things, but they were minor nit picks. This should have been two movies, and they really missed the opportunity the flush out the transition to the empire. Show Stormtroopers as recruits and not exclusively clones, put in the military rise of the emperial generals, etc. The POSITIVE: It didn't suck. I would actually watch it again. The acting was Vasty improved. The dialogue was much better. R2 kicked some arse. C3PO wasn't pulling his one-liner shtick. Only 8 seconds of Jar Jar. Decent fights. Decent space battles. A well thought out plot. Wookies! Hell yeah! The emporer was fantastic (where are all those fools who said that Sideous was Palpatines' clone? Ha ha, you Dorks). The blatent Anti-Bush feeling was great (Republicans, you got served). Anyway, I enjoyed the flick overall. Now I'm going to go back and read all those reviews I avoided.
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I never thought I'd actually see the day when someone said "Y'know, that whole separation of church and state thing isn't really a necessity." People used the Bible to defend slavery, you know.
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The fights were better in this film, but still not quite there. As I said that the robots don't interest me, and that's a good portion of the conflict. Maybe that's just a matter of taste. The opening space battle was great, though there could have been more ship-to-ship conflict (hense the "Star" in "Star Wars"). OB vs. Grevious was pretty good, but I think his four sabre technique was a bit too easily defeated. Mace vs. Palp was great, though (how's this for a nit pick?) the lighs sabers looked a little too solid. What I mean is that they when you compare them to how they look in the OT, in ROTS they sometimes looked like plastic toys rather than weapons of light. Yoda vs. Palp was missing something, but was an overall good battle. The Jedi were taken out by the Clones WAY too easily. Ani vs. OB1 was still not as good as ESB or TPM for a few reasons. Now, I hate TPM, but the one great moment is the battle with Darth Maul. My problem with the Ani vs. OB fight is 1) Never use close ups in hand to hand fights. It just looks like a bunch of blury flashes and ends up looking no beter than "Mortal Kombat: Annihilation". 2) Even if the environment is dark, a fight has to be lit so properly enough so we can follow the action. 3) Ani and OB should have had different colored sabres. When Ani went dark, his sword should have gone red. It was too hard to follow the fight with the sabres being the same color. 4) Too much CG. The reason the battle in Empire is so great is that it is so organic. We can almost smell the sweat and blood in the battle. The wire tricks and coreography work a lot better than bouncing around like a CG superball. Also, the background didn't feel like one they could interact with. It had a bit too much of that "We're fighting on a Green Screne" feeling. That aside, it was a really good pulse raising film. Overall, the action in the film was solid and entertaining. Not an "A+" in my opinion, but definately worth watching again.
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www.supershadow.com
hahahahahah -
I loved 98% of RoTS. I've already seen it 3 times and estimate I'll check it out a good 10 times in theaters before summer's end. BUT, the Vader "Nooo" at the end, while it didn't ruin the movie for me, was pretty darn bad. Not only was the inflection in the "Nooo" wrong but "Nooo" was out of place and cliched. I like how Vader used the force to smash everything up in the room. I like how he broke free from the restraints and took his Frankenstein steps. I like all that. It's just the "Nooo" and the way he looks doing it I didn't like and felt was done wrong. Just my two cents. On another note, some of the sappy dialogue actually gets better and more digestable with repeat viewings. I felt the opposite with Ep. I and II where the dialogue b/came tougher and tougher to endure. Oh, and another thing, a lot of people have been giving Mace a hard time. One, he did not conduct vigilante justice. Jedi keep the peace and he and his fellow Jedi were attending to a situation and handling it. Second, yeah Mace distrust Anakin and was a prick to him but you know what? He was right! He knew! So in RoTS, on one hand you had Obi Wan who was in Anakin's corner (a change from previous films), Yoda who straddled the fence, and Mace who didn't trust Anakin in the other far corner. And you know what? Mace was right. So while he obviously could've spoken to Anakin differently and with some compassion, at the end of the day he didn't necessarily like Anakin nor trust him and he was right not to. Lastly, Ian and Ewan needs Oscars for their work in this movie. Really, the acting was better by everyone across the board. I thought Hayden was great. Natalie was ok IMO. Everyone was good. But Ewan and especially Ian stole the show. Superb, subtle acting. Conveying loads of meaning through simple facial expressions, inflections in the voice, etc.. Just great. I truly... deeply... love this movie, lol.
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This movie is too big for only 2 humongous sprawling talkbacks!!!
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May 25, 2005 12:44:05 PM CDT
llac5 - Your "children" point has already been dealt with elsewh
by dagan
I liked Revenge of the Sith as its own movie, heavily flawed though it is. I don't like it in the context of the overall Star Wars saga, though, and I am very frustrated over what this movie could have been if done with a good writer and director. And when I say "the Star Wars Saga", I only mean ROTS and the Original Trilogy - the first two Prequels were so horrendous and have so little actual relevant story to the overal thing when you think about it that I don't call them Star Wars.------------------------------------------------------ All that having been said, your kid thing just doesn't hold up. First of all, kids like ANY movie with a bunch of special effects and action - the more of it, the better. That's why they like the Prequels better than the Original Trilogy - kids like flash over substance, and aren't even saavy enough yet to see when even the flash is lackluster(as in these films), and lackluster flash over substance is what the Prequels are all about.------------ But they won't simply "grow up and like them all, because they did when they were kids." That's provably ridiculous - I think we ALL have films that we loved as kids that we think suck now. Lots of them. I know I do - everybody I know does as well. I'm sure you do, too. Just because you like a film as a kid doesn't mean you automatically grow up and like it as an adult. All these kids who like Episodes I and II now? Most of them will grow up and find them as terrible as we find some of the films we liked when we were kids but now realize are sucky.--------------------------------------------------------- Not to mention, I personally know people who only saw the Star Wars films as adults, and all of them think the Original Trilogy is far better than the Prequels - many others have pointed this out as well. So this "kids" thing means nothing. We don't like Star Wars(The Original Trilogy) because we saw it when we were kids. We like it because it's GREAT. In fact, many of us preferred Jedi when we were kids and liked Empire the least(been reported on these boards, and I am included), but now like Jedi the least of the Original Trilogy(though it's still a great film on its own, if flawed), and like Empire the most - we recognize what is better as we get more mature.---------------------------------------------------- And I'm not a "hater" - I liked ROTS as its own film, and I'm not an OT purist. I HATE some things in the Special Editions, for instance, but I also LOVE some things. For instance, I think the new ending of Jedi(though NOT the newest one with a scowling Hayden Christensen, which is just horrible) is FAR better than the original. The original Jedi ending always felt like the ending of Jedi. The new one, with the scope and the new music, feels like the ending of a Trilogy/Saga, and it makes Luke's achievement more palpable. But the new Jabba scene, Greedo shooting first, the new Emperor/Vader scene in Empire, Vader uselessly being shown flying back to the ship and breaking up the rythm of the climax of the film - terrible. New Jedi ending, new effects in the Death Star battle at the end of Episode IV, etc. - great. If only we could make our own version. ------------------------------- But Prequel Trilogy? It just sucks. Plain and simple, from any objective point of view.
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"It just sucks. Plain and simple from
any obejctive point of view." This kind of high-handed condescension is so frustrating. I'm not really a proponent of the PT, but I know reasonable people who are. Just like your belief in absolutes, this inability to recognize the validity of different people must make life very unpleasant for you. To think you have the ability to make the final, absolute, irrevocable declaration about anything is egotistical and wrong. -
Is anyone here an art lover? And by art I mean fine art. Y'know the crap hanging in museums? When you look at a painting you have several options standing in front of you. 1) Nice painting, where are the restrooms. 2) Huh? 3) Nice painting, I think I see a cow and a field... but I'm not sure. 4) Ok, I don't understand that but I find myself proundly moved in some way. And on and on. What I'm trying to get at is that the true expression of art is based, not on what the artist is trying to express, but on how each individual person reacts to the art, on their own, individually. What does it mean to you specifically? Now I'm not trying to compare Star Wars to an art masterpiece, but our reaction to the movie is the same. Each of us have reacted differently and each reaction is valid on an individual basis. Van Gough's Stary Night means something to me personally and something else to you, I wouldn't dream of changing your mind about how you feel about it. But we will discuss it and I'll argue my viewpoint and listen to yours. If I feel strongly enough about my view point then perhaps I'll feel motivated to paint my own masterpiece someday. As an artist Lucas made the movies HE wanted to make, our interpretation of the films is our individual decision. That is the way it is supposed to work and that is a good thing. Just my two cents for what it is worth.
The other point of this is that there is always more to a story than what is being filmed. If you are not filing in the blanks yourself then the filmaker has failed in his storytelling role. Much like the white space between comic book panels, a movie could not possibly show everythign you need to know or see. Your mind fills those gaps for you. Personally I like that not ALL the answers to Star Wars are on screen. I don't want to know everything. My imagination enjoys the gaps. -
Episode III is very debatable. The first two are not. I'm sorry if my opinion is too strong for you, but it is my opinion - that they are undebatably, undeniably bad. Most movies I won't be so strident on, but Episode I and II are so incredibly amateurish as films in every way, that I find them indisputably bad - acting, directing, writing - it seems as if everybody conceeds those are bad in Episodes I and II. Add to that a robotic dullness, unsinspired action(with few exceptions), an overuse of special effect for nothing more than the sake of special effect(CG stormtroopers? A real head on a CG stormtrooper body? WHY?), plodding pacing, scenes that are either cartoonish effects "action" or completely uninspired expository dialogue scenes with on the nose dialogue staged in the most uncreative of possible ways - with two people simply standing there talking to each other. Plots that make no sense when thought about for even a few minutes, and on and on and on. Yes, Episodes I and II are "absolutely" bad, and I think if anything can prove the existence of absolutes, these movies do it. :-) Art is subjective, but only to a point - there CAN be objective criticisms in art.
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There can be criticims, but there can never be a final, objective evaluation. Again, it should be enough for you to state your opinion, but it's not. And you know what, even if TPM and AOTC are bad, there are many, many worse films out there. Your points would be so much more interesting if you would ratchet down your rhetoric. If you can make one objective criticism of any work of art, you'd be the first. Not only is it impossible, it is impossible.
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May 25, 2005 1:35:43 PM CDT
Should have been "irrelevant" for that second impossible
by fat clemenza
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Actually, llac5, I got into Star Wars first when I was 14 - 15 years old - 1991-1992. I had already seen all the blockbusters that came out post Star Wars. Star Wars is not just a product of "effects that nobody had seen" or "kids watching it and now having nostalgia". It's simply a great series - better than just about any other blockbuster out there. The stories are timeless with a new twist, and all the elements of mythology are mixed in with the fantastical that "outer-space" provides. You also have lightsabers, and a mystical religous order, a rebellion against an Evil Empire, and a great Father/Son mythic conflict. You have the Emperor and Yoda, Vader and Han Solo, the droids, and on and on and on. Star Wars is magic, and no other blockbuster series has come close(even LOTR, in my opinion, though those books are wonderful). But things aren't only about WHAT they are about. It's about HOW they are about what they are about. And Star Wars, the Original Trilogy, is just great, old-fashioned storytelling. Newer movies may have better effects, but not the characters. Sometimes they have the characters, but not the storytelling. Star Wars has it all. And again, even those on this board that hold the Original Trilogy in such high regard are not doing so just because they saw it when they were young. If that were the case why does every older person have a bunch of films they loved when they were young but realize suck now?------------------------------------------------------- And Fat Clemenza - so it's "impossible" to judge art objectively, huh? Wow. That sounds an awful lot like an "absolute", my friend. I take it you have conceded on that point then? ;-)
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Recognize the difference. If the logic is wrong, than than the absolute could be wrong. See the difference?
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Tarkin's Death Star took 20 years to build. Tarkin appears to be the number 2 guy after Palpatine, certainly ahead of Vader who didn't get a seat in the conference scene in Star Wars. Why should a guy who is responsible for huge time (and presumably cost) overages be rewarded with Grand Moff status, while Vader is treated like a thug?
The best thing you can do is ignore the sequels and prequels and focus on the original Star Wars. Erase your mind of the dilutive effects of such abominations as Empire, Jedi and the prequels.
Darth Vader not only killed Luke's father, but is responsible for killing his own brother, (uncle) Owen Lars-Vader! Lets talk about that, if you please!
And the Death Star was destroyed a matter of days after becoming operational. -
And the size of these TalkBacks is just proof that people like to impose their will on other people.
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May 25, 2005 2:37:27 PM CDT
Dagan, how dare you put your taste above everyone else's?
by colonel_blimp
I'm entitled to enjoy the PT, and deem it of high artistic value. Just because you, in your arrogance, believe your opinion to be more enlightened than other's, doesn't make it true. The birth of the reader is paid by the death of the author. Do you know what that means? That means that once a work of art is out in the public, it is irrelevant what the creator's intentions were, the only thing that matters is how each and every one of us interpret it, and each interpretation is as valid as the next. I am an art student, and I would greatly appreciate how you evaluate art objectively. Apparently, you believe it possible, and I would be much obliged if you would illuminate me on this point, as neither my professors nor the writings of the greatest thinkers of all time have been able to do so. Go ahead, I'm listening.
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I dislike the NT entirely and ROTS proved to be no exception, although it at least had some decent action. There is nothing good about it except for Palpatine. Everyone in the NT is moron except for the Emperor, and Lucas wasted a bunch of fine actors for a videogame spectacle.
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So now Lucas' films are masterpieces of art to be viewed objectively, huh? Some art IS crap you know. Picasso is one example.
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Objective or subjective, not all art is created equal. Masterpieces and something an art student did first term are not necessarily on the same level, although rarely could be. But one man's garbage is sometimes another man's treasure and vice versa. Just because snobbish film critics like a certain movie, doesn't mean I have to. And just because they hate a certain movie, doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. Of course I would be an idiot if I didn't realize that Armageddon (for example) is NOT a great Film, but it doesn't stop me from really enjoying watching it. Which I do. Some of the best expereinces I've had in cinema have been with "bad" films. And good ones as well, I'm not an idiot. Yes the PT have problems and I would have made them differently myself, but the fact is I didn't. And hoenstly I'd much rather live in a world WITH Star Wars than one Without it.
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My point is that the technical quality of the film is secondary to how the film reaches you, and no one is entitled to say that the way THIS particular film reaches ME is wrong. And superninja, art is relative, and picasso being crap is your opinion (which you're entitled to), not a fact. For something to be fact, it needs to be proven. Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that picasso is crap (or the PT for that matter) and I'll shut up.
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Why did Lucas load the prequels with Yoda speaking in the passive voice... by placing the subordinate clause at the beginning of each sentence and ending with the main clause? He does this a few times in Empire and in Jedi. Perhaps he was told off for it in the 20 years between the prequels and the original, and has begun working on speaking proper English. Unfortunately, he dies and the audience is robbed (prematurely) of an articulate Yoda. Rats.
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The only reason the PT are successful is because of the Original Star Wars movie. By themselves, they are crap. Why you ask? If TPM had been released as the first Star Wars movie, it would have bombed and the Star Wars universe that you appear to hold so dearly would vanish. Lucas would be regarded as hack (which he is anyway). But seriously, to regard the PT as art is incredulous. The only thing that does not deteriorate over time is art. These movies will be regarded as a joke in 10 years, and you will all be apologising to me, Ross Borowicki, for your disturbing lack of faith!
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Although many have complained that Anakin's turn and transformation felt rushed, pussified, or even not believable, I think this ultimately comes down to most viewers wanting Anaking to be a total badass and not cry or even slightly regret the wrongs he has committed. However, if we are to buy his turn to good in ROTJ, these seeds have to be planted somewhere - that is that he somehow never really bought into Palpatine's plan in the first place but was trying to save his and Padme's ass at the expense of the Galaxy, which he ultimately comes to regret. And yes this leads to a less than threatening Vader when we actually realize who is behind the mask. But I think - and I am surprised no one has said this yet - that the real way to watch the series is still 4-6 adn 1-3, with 3 being the last that should be viewed in the series, not back to back to back (even though Lucasfilm will probably show them that way upon the IMAX 3D re-release in 2007). That is why it is OK that we know who is really behind Vader's mask and also why it is OK to have Owen Lars and Beru with Luke as that beautiful final shot. That is not a mirror from one episode to the next but rather the first episode to the last.
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look up incredulous.
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May 25, 2005 3:18:35 PM CDT
Ross, for one: you don't know shit about what you're talking abo
by colonel_blimp
The opinion of what is art and what is not varies all through the ages. There is nothing permanent or eternal about it.
and two: I never said PT was art (art is by the way a vague term). I said I am entitled to deem it of high artistic value (if I wish to do so). That's something else. BTW, you're basing your "proofs" on assumptions about what could have been if so and so had happened, and that's simply no good. -
It's the skill and talent involved in creating it. If 99.999% of the population could do what a given artist has done, then the art is a lot less respected than art that could only've been done by .001% of the population. So it earns respect that way - it is entirely separate from the value of the meaning of the art, however - art can mean more to one person than another, so how meaningful it is is always subjective, but just because something means a lot to me personally, doesn't mean it's "great" art.
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Based on this discussion, it appears ANYTHING is art. So why don't we eliminate the word "art" from our vocabulary because it has ceased to provide any meaning.
Anybody see the Michelin Man and a creature which looked alot like Tony the Tiger during the Jedi execution scenes? It seems Lucas has sunk to new lows in his quest for "art"...
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Sure all art is subjective, but there is such a thing as an educated opinion. I used to hate jazz, until I learned how to listen to it. I couldn't appreciate most "modern" art, until I read "The Shock of the New" and learned why the artists were doing what they were doing. Some have called The Stooges "Fun House" album "noise", yet it is one of the most raw, influential and, transcendent albums ever produced. On the other hand, JessicAshley Simpson and Nickleback produce crystal clear studio recordings that are artistically empty. "But that's subjective. You can't say that Ashley Simpson has no talent just because you don't like it." Yes I can. Her music is crap. If you enjoy her music, you have no taste. That's a judgment call, and I'm making it. Some art is better than other, and is amounts to more than subjectivity. (that's how all those critics and liberal arts college professors get paid.)
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After reading what Kurtz wanted to do I can't help but feel really let down. Especially the part of having Luke face the emporer in epsode IX. I think I feel let down, because that IS the ending to star wars. George is right, where could he possibly go after episode VI. I'm sure you could invent another story line, but the overarching story of the empire and vader that carried the saga for 6 episodes is gone and feels VERY complete. It would be like starting over. After all, even every great TV show that has individual episodes is tied to gether with an overarching story that binds the universe together. Star wars no longer has that. I watch empire and I think it is the best shot and arguably the best directed out of the OT. Now, that's not to say that I think it has the best story (which it doesn't), but it is arguably the best looking. Anyway, I also find it hard to believe that Kurtz left solely b/c Lucas didn't make his draft. Sounds like a cop out. I mean, do you throw away pools of cash and a friendship over creative differences? Does anyone know the real story they can share? Solo...out!
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Art: "Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium."
Everything isn't art. Duh. But anything CAN be art. Also duh. The line between what is and what isn't art is a personal decision based on cultural history handed down and constantly being renewed. That is the beauty of Art, or at least one of them. There are experts in Art that study the field and which we rely upon to "guide" us, who don't study the field, to help us determine our decision. They don't (or shouldn't) make our decisions for us. The same is true of any field of study, film critics, consultants, etc. We can't all know everything, but we do have our opinions don't we?
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can "hate" Star Wars. Hate is such a strong and passionate word. If you hated SW why are you wasting your time writing about it here? Gosh, I usually don't think twice about a movie I hated. I loved Alien and Aliens, but I pretend the sequels don't even exist because I didn't like them. I certainly don't talk about them, or waste time writing about them in on-line forums. Strange. But perhaps it is I who am deranged? -
I am probably in a very small minority when i say this. But i like all the films. All 6 of them. Lucas has created an entire world and a massive story to go with it that could (Palpatine's convo with Anakin at Opera) keep going backwards or (the fact there are more Jedi to train a galaxy to straighten out) keep going forwards. It is in that way i see them as one film. They are all connected they could not stand alone, as they were not meant by Lucas to stand alone. Of course there are things I myself would change if i was given the chance. Nothing is perfect. Think of all the things that have happened since 1977, in your life and the world. Then look at how this story has been able to draw you back in. It is not one single film that has done it but the story. Its just one long film. p.s i liked all the Matrixs and Terminators. Same reason.
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Couldn't agree more. Oh and Armageddon was great ;)
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Because this is an internet forum, and I'm here because I'm bored at work, and I'm too lazy to really get specific with a well defined philosophy. When I talked about what we as a species are capable of producing, I didn't mean physically, although that's part of it. I'm talking about creativity - this is something that is mysterious, but I think we all know when we see it. It's not any one attribute, but a combination of originality, skill, the effort required in the creation of the art, etc. This is why the general public his a dim view of modern abstract art. It's because modern abstract art seems to place an emphasis on originality over skill and effort in its creation (and again, I know I'm generalizing). I think there's a reason why we don't see the art of 6 year olds hanging in any museums. It's because typically it doesn't display much creativity, talent or skill. Now you asked if Pollack painted as well as Rembrandt. I could answer two ways. The first is to cite what I said above about why the general public does not respect modern abstract art very much. I think we should give ourselves credit for this. I think we all have an innate ability to recognize genius when we see it. One could argue that the general public just "doesn't get it," but if art is a form of communication, maybe that again becomes a criticism not of the public but of the art. But the 2nd part of my response to that question is Pollack and Rembrandt are probably generally considered geniuses. I wouldn't really want to try to split hairs and try to label one superior to the other - it's enough to recognize each of their special contributions without saying one is superior to the other. However, if we don't recognize that some art is superior to other art, we can't call any artists geniuses.
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I think that each of us could come up with a top 10 list of our favorite movies, and a top 10 list of the best movies ever made. The two lists probably wouldn't share 10 movies for most people. I'm just trying to speculate why that is.
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May 25, 2005 6:46:00 PM CDT
The two lists probably wouldn't share the SAME 10 movies.
by philconnors
I'd love an edit button.
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How about the part at the beggining where Obiwan says: "How did this happen? We're smarter than this." Lucas cant write a script, face it.
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is possibly THE worst name for a major character in a film... second only to Padme, with Jar Jar coming a close third
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without any new Star Wars films, check out the average length of non SW talkbacks, Harry sell this fucker soon and make your chips
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which language does Anakin mean 'without equal'? latin? how much is latin spoke in the SW universe?
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Well I saw it for the second time last night (Digitally). And I'll admit it, I liked it much better than the first time. Don't get me wrong, I still have alot of the same problems I did in the first place. But now that my inital 30 year disappointment has worn off, I watched it for what I now know it is and not for what I wanted it to be.
I thought the ending with Obi and Anakin was much more heart wrenching. Also, wasn't so bothered by the humor in the opening sequence. By far Ewen MacGregor is the best thing, I'd just love to see the adventures of Obi-Wan. The moments of sheer confidence that Obi displayed we're just great and had me grinning ear to ear. Something I hadn't notice last time was another link to the OT. One of my most hated parts of RoTJ. When the Wookies swing in to plant the explosive, they do the Tarzan yell like Chewbacca did, still lame.
But again, I wished this had been part 2 instead of 3. Anakin to me was never the sympathetic person that we thought we would get when Luke removed his helmet. Where was this "fall from grace" character that I thought Anakin was supposed to be. There's always been the line "I know there's still good in him." Well I never saw it. If at some point Anakin was at the top of his game, conquering most of his demons and almost becoming this legend among Jedi's, that would have work better for me.
As for the Nooooooo bit, if it had been a yell, or just the Force anger it would have worked better for me. On second veiwing it didn't bother me as much. And I also thought of Frankenstien the first time, but again, it wasn't as bad this time. He take two steps for the first time. Again, if this had been 2 and they ramped up to the real Vader in 3, things would have been much more satisfying. -
fair comments really, although my second viewing wasn't digital (sold out)- went home and watched my video of ep4, the version before the special editions, christ, was the picture quality bad. Lucas used to annoy me by tinkering with the films all the time but to be fair its his baby to ruin
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Ok, say Wolverine's claws, made of the indestructible metal/alloy/whatever Adamantium are struck by a lightsaber. Does it cut through? I mean, it's adamantium. But then again, it's a darn lightsaber. Damn fine quandry we have here. Thoughts?
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just because he can act, beats Hayden any day of the week
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There have been plenty of sequels that surpassed the orginals and you named a few I agree with. Star Trek was a bit unique though in the sense that even the first movie was a sequel to the series. I do remember the exitement standing in line for that one, and being so dissapointed at one they threw up on the screen (which I believe at the time was one of if not THE most expensive film ever produced). With Star Wars it was different because it came right out of the blue. No novels (like Dune) or TV shows (Star Trek) that had the audience primed with anticipation.
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I was, because I got the impression that the only reason you would bring something like that up is because you feel like church and state don't necessarily need to be separated, which I'm now guessing was a bad guess. So, my bad. Sorry.
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...this article is shot to hell, man. It takes my computer like a day and a half to upload this mother.
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May 25, 2005 10:59:22 PM CDT
I RULE THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by new in ny
GEORGIE BOY SEZ: "There are two groups of fans for my films: one group over 25, and the other under 25. The people in their 30s and 40s love the first three, and they are in control of the media and the web." ---
OH NO! GEORGE HAS DISCOVERED OUR TERRIBLE SECRET!!! IT IS IN FACT THE 30-YEAR-OLDS THAT RULE THE INTERNET ... BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!! ---
"The more recent ones are fantastically adored by people under 25 and the devotion of each group is about equal ..." ---
UMMMMMM, NOPE, SORRY GEORGIE BOY; I'M UNDER 25 AND THEY SUCK-DIDDLY-UCK!!! ---
GL: "It will be interesting to see what happens in 10 years when the younger group has grown older." ---
(ME, 10 YEARS FROM NOW): HUH, I WAS RIGHT ... THEY REALLY DO SUCK-DIDDLY-UCK!!!
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anger
by RicCage 2005-05-21 17:28:56
The fact that you would resort to insults and anger shows your lack of intelligence. I see why you bought Anakin's turn so easilty. I'm sure other people (as I've read in almost every review, positive and negative) think Anakin turned too quickly. If you don't think Vader screaming NOOO! at the end was cheesy...wow. You're kidding yourself my friend.
Spoilers for Episode 1 and 3 Down Below!!!
If you have an accepting imagination, and you have emotionally invested into a given character, then when a character yells "NooooOOOOOOOO!" its for a reason. It is TRUE. It is what is Happening in the Moment. Is it a stretch, or is it "Cheesy" to hear Padawan Obi-Wan yell "NoooooOOOOO!!!" when Qui-Gon leaves this plane??? Of course not... because you care about Qui-Gon, and you understand that Obi-Wan cares for Qui-Gon too!!!
So you apparantly to NOT care about Anakin Skywalker, therefore it is NOT surprising that you thought that Darth Vader's Cry was cheesy... -
I gotta disagree. The dialogue wasn't too bad. It wasn't great, but compared to TPM and AOTC...at least I could sit through it. The only stand out weaknesses for me are the previously mentioned "NOOO!", the coughing robot/creature/grievous thing, and yoda dropping the backwards talk 100% of the time. He occasionally gave it a rest in Empire and Jedi. Am I the only one who thinks Yoda sounds like Yiddish speakers speaking English? Probably. Is it time for ROTS talkback III yet?
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There is a difference between the two mentioned examples: Whenever watching Episode I Qui Gon's death comes surprising (unless you read spoilers before the show), while Anakins transformation into Darth Vader is known by the majority of the movie-goers before watching Episode III. Question: Would one who hadn't seen the OT, who didn't have other Darth Vader-appearances for comparison, find the "NOOO!" cheesy?
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That line was Lucas's revenge for fans demanding that he take out that lame "NOOOOOOO!!!" the he slipped into Empire Strikes Back: Special Olympics version.
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Watching ATOC and then ROTS recently I was wondering something that was never anwsered. If Jango Fett in clones was hired by Count Dooku to be assasinated Padme, don't they find it off a bit that Fett is also the guy the clones are all based of?
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...When you saw the Emperor fling Yoda across the room with Force lightning, you started thinking of the Mini-Me showdown from Austin Powers: Goldmember. Gawd, what I wouldn't have paid to see his Imperial Highness stuff the Jedi Master in a bag and break a glass table with him...what could have been...
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You know what? I don't know why any of the good guys have ever questioned that. Obi Wan has seen and talked to Jango, helmet off. He has seen and talked to the clone troops, helmet off. If Jango tried to kill padme, why would the republic just clones created from him? Hmm, a jedi placed an order for clones to fight for the republic against the separatist, based off a bounty hunter who is fighting FOR the separatist who tried to kill a senator of the republic. Huh?
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...but you guys get what I'm saying. What I meant to say is, I don't get why any of the good guys have NEVER questioned that.
Other sentance should read; If Jango tried to kill Padme, why would the republic TRUST clones created from him? -
Here ya go all:
http://www.petitiononline.com/aunycxvc/petition.html -
I swear, some of you assholes are just displaying what kind of primadonna geeks you are with all your bitching. The "Noooo!" scene was fine, and it paid homage to the pulp comics and Saturday matinee serials that inspired Star Wars to begin with. Stop being such fuckin' losers and learn a little about film history before petitioning a filmmaker to change his artwork. Jackoffs.
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In the American Civil War, there were BROTHERS and whole families on both sides of the war, fighting each other, and the troops who fought alongside them trusted them. It's not at all impossible to believe that people would trust clones that are behavior modified to obey the Republic without question when the North and South trusted men who weren't built with such genetic tinkering. Use your fucking imagination and think things through.
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This things longer than supershadow's nose!!
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On repeat viewing ROTS's epic tragedy and failed romance is too much for my frail fanboy heart to take, I fear Anakin's obsession with Padme and turn closely mirrors my own IRL romantic failings. It seems Lucas deliberately inserted that romantic tragedy to enable his core constituency of fanboys to fully empathize and identify with Anakin, to draw us fully into his masterful world of escapism. I fear I'm now trapped in this world of daily living Anakin's tragedy. I just wanted some escapism, not a relive of my adult romantic failings. Anakin killed Padme, Lucas raped my adulthood!!!!
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the thing about bounty hunters is that they're just doing a job. it really is nothing personal, just business. so jango is first hired to donate his DNA to the cloners, and then, TEN years later, he is hired to assasinate padme. there really is no reason why OB1 and the others should be suspicious. and the clones are of course 100% loyal (i think they even say that in AotC), they just needed jango's superior warrior DNA. the fact that OB1 is fighting alongside the clones of a man who tried to kill him is just supposed to be an amusing irony. BTW, that Nooo-petition has already gathered a staggering 177 signatures. Lord George can hardly ignore that kind of pressure can he? Bring on a petition for a third talkback and I'll sign any day.
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... the Nooo scene people are harping on isn't anything worth complaining about. What the complainers say is there just isn't there. It's not cheesy, campy, crappy or any other c-word. It's fine the way it is, meaning it didn't call attention to itself in a negative way.
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May 26, 2005 10:15:25 AM CDT
I SAW THE SUPERSHADOW HACK - FUCKING EXCELLENT MOVE - ITS BACK U
by banthafodderuk
IT WAS HACKED BY www.g00ns.com - very cool move
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May 26, 2005 10:32:23 AM CDT
Re:"learn a little about film history before petitioning a filmm
by right bastard
...if only we could stop a filmmaker from changing his own artwork :(
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I don't think it would have mattered what Lucas did, because a lot of you assholes would still say it sucked. He could have made a PT that was superior to the OT and you guys would still bitch. It was James Earl Jones as Vader, what the hell more do you want. I guess some of you would have only been happy if he used the crappy 1977 special f/x and brought out Carrie Fisher to play Padme, Mark Hamill to play Anakin, Billy Dee Williams to play Windu, and CGI
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Remember the Simpson's episode about the prequels sucking? Comic Book Guy says something like "Worst Episode Ever," then he goes on to say "I will only see it three more times, today."
That is exactly what these punk ass haters are doing. So go eat your 300 tacos Comic Book Guys, a.k.a. HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROTS flaws and all was still the greatest of all Star Wars movies.
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you still haven't answered the question about the bullet points! What do you press to produce them?
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Assuming you are on a PC, hold down the ALT key then hit "0 1 4 9" or go to your Character Map under START>PROGRAMS>ACCESSORIES>SYSTEM>TOOLS
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Give us a new talkback Harry, one more the fanboys will RUUULE the talkback, and we will have PEACE!
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May 26, 2005 3:12:07 PM CDT
Spectrebeeyatch, Warcraft, and the Jango clone connection.
by akira'scrow
Jango told Obi-wan that he was recruited by a man named Tyranus, not by Dooku, and he never gave the Sith moniker of Darth. No one one screen knows that Dooku's real name is Darth Tyranus, and the clones were orderd by a member of the Jedi council. There is no connection to the CIS concerning the clones other than their template(Jango)working as a hired gun for Dooku. But Jango is a bounty hunter, and that is what bounty hunters do, they follow the money. No loyalties.
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Overall, I liked this one way better than the previous two. Minor nits: light saber battles were poorly choreographed/filmed--too many close up flashing light scenes. Light sabers are not new and different anymore, so we needed fewer and more build up. The fight with Grievous was the best one, so all the others after it were a bit dry. The "Nooooo" scene was so poorly done. The intent was good, but it came across as awkward at best, and farce at worst. The best part of the scene was when his anger/rage/grief channeled into the force to cause objects to swirl and distort--more of that alone, in silence, would have been much more dramatic. The Frankenstein's Vader staggering/lurching and Noooooo was just lame. And finally, yes, Lucas cannot write dialog or a love scene. He really needs to hire someone to help him there. If there are to be more films, let's have Whedon and/or Straczinksy in charge (for God's sake NOT Berman or Braga!)
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I'm going to see the movie tonight, so I can't say if it is good or bad, not that my opinion really matters anyway. This is Lucas' story, as it has evolved over 30 years (if you count the numerous treatments well before 1977). Sometimes the evolution of his ideas works, sometimes it doesn't. TPM and AOTC could easily have been one movie by removing the extraneous moments and tightening the plot lines and character arcs into stronger components. Lucas' storytelling isn't really the issue, he weaves an extremely complex story, perhaps too much so, but his methodologies are lacking. Visual efx and cgi cannot alone tell a story, they are an accent, a symbolic punctuation of the bigger picture. Today's movie audiences are sophisticated, at least we like to think we are. We don't stand for gaps in the story, or unmotivated character behavior and our suspension of disbelief in general is quite jaded. We want to be stunned, so much so that we set the bar exceedingly higher year by year. Lucas seemed disconnected from his characters in TPM and AOTC; his distance became our distance. We couldn't connect with them the way we bonded with Han, Luke and Chewie. The heart of the tale was too cold for us to fall in love with it in recent years. The dispassion in the ensuing political downfall didn't ignite our own fires to become absorbed in the tale and so left us all a little empty. Annakin may have put on the suit in Episode III, but that doesn't necessarily mean he immediately became Vader. With some reorganization of plot lines and arcs, the third episode could have taken place after the birth of Vader and shown the further fall to the dark side to the Vader we met in Episode IV.
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Does anyone elst think the PT light sabres (http://tinyurl.com/9xnf9) look a little too thick/bright/cartoon like compared to the OT ones (http://tinyurl.com/bjypw http://tinyurl.com/aa3lc)? Am I the only one?
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have rounded tips and the old ones are pointy...makes them seem "shaper" (which I know is a silly concept with this weapon, but for asthetic purposes, it works).
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When Vader wakes up on the slab he should say: "Padme........" --then pause-- then the Emperor says calmly: "She's dead." --then a longer pause, as Anakin considers what an evil disfigured mutant freak he's become, then he replies in a low steely voice: "GOOD." No high fives, but no remorse either, and certainly no cries of "NOOOOooooo!!!" THAT would be getting Vader (the Big Bad Vader) off on the dark foot.
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That could certainly explain a lot of things, though you'd think they'd have some of their better ones on the Death Star. As for the final scenes on Endor where the Emperor says he has a legion of him "finest" troops ... Well, either standards have really fallen or someone was busy siphoning off most of the funds meant for training and recruitment. The other thing I remember finding *so* *wrong* even when I saw Star Wars (4) at a very young age was Obi Wan being able to tell Imperial troops had shot up some vehicle because "their shooting was too accurate". They then spend the rest of the movie not hitting the side of a barn.
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Akirascrow's And Colonel Blimp's explanations were satisfactory, without sounding like asshats. Get fucked idiot. Use YOUR fucking imagination and think things through before sounding like a cocky psuedo intellectual moron bringing up analogies from the civil fucking war when trying to compose a decent argument.
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May 26, 2005 9:06:42 PM CDT
Great Sith thread on Stormfront White Nationalist board
by truthseekr1488
http://tinyurl.com/9q63c
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May 27, 2005 3:07:15 AM CDT
sign my petition to get vader into the big brother house
by banthafodderuk
ch4 tonight at 9 girls!!!!
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post
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I LOVE that line.....
"The time in now.
Execute Ordah 6ixty 6ix." -
I do not know if anyone posted in response to your question about the Red Barriers in TPM, and why did Obi Wan not Super-Dash past them to help Qui.
The reason for this was posted on the "Jedi Council" (The Jedi Council was like a FAQ of questions..... like this question directed towards Sound Editor for all the SW's movies Ben Burtt: "What did you use to make the sound of the Seismic Charges?" for example....Ben did NOT give away his secret! o_0) on StarWars.com.
The reasoning behind why Obi Wan did NOT SuperDash, is that the Jedi do have to factor in Stamina into their ability to "Focus", and perform a given "Supermove".
So basically Obi Was pooped, having JUST "SuperJumped" back up to the Platform/Catwalk that he was knocked off of previously.
So he did TRY to run as fast as he could, and what we see on screen is his fastest possible run at that point in time.
Hope that helped...
And to quote a fun-to-quote Gungan Leader: "PEACE!!!" -
I read this post on theforce.net forums I'm reposting it here:////////
Date Posted: 5/26 8:08pm Subject: RE: Vader's "NOOOOO" when he hears he "killed" Padme - Date Edited: 5/26 8:15pm (2 edits total) Edited By: dontkillyoda/////////////////
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http://boards.theforce.net/Revenge_of_the_Sith_/b10331/19784598/p28********
Listen this whole "Noooo! is such a Hollywood cliche thing" began over at the Ain't It Cool website. One of the know it all reviewers pissed and moaned about this in their reviews, and obviously it was read and spread by mouth and text far enough to become the in "Moment to hate" It's been outplayed, and unmerited. That place is a palace of cynites that are so creatively depraved that the only joy they find comes in the destruction of other peoples hard work, and sadly- enough blind followers who cant make up their own frigging minds in regards to what they think they want to see or enjoy follow this Mecca and spread its viri all over the net.
To be so cynical of a film that you have to nit pick it for every single frame. Tell me just why in the hell do you watch films to begin with. WTF was Vader supposed to say huh? "Whyyyyyyy" "Ohhh Godddddddd"
"Damn Youuuu!" "F%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%!"
This is what makes me so sick in regards to the places like this on the net. Some stupid little sh*th*le website like ain't it cool who really believe they run the whole geek fandom circle, start whining over what they claim to be cliche moments and yet they worship some of the most cliche films in existence, be it from a comic book or a nod to wirefu cinema. The Nooo! was prefect. Anyone who thinks it's cliche must not have lost someone close to them... It's probably the most uttered word when someone is told that they have lost someone they loved. Watch a frigging episode of the TLC Trama center if you don't believe me. Some of you people are so damned cynical it just amazes me. I don't know how you can be such a fan and yet be so damn judgmental. So many fans think it should have been done this way and that way. Well hey $%^&@# get off your high horse/bar stool and make your own damn film. Then your truly free to judge other peoples work, but remember now your judgments are judgeable by the success of your contributions- which is why the fat boy and the Vincent Price wannabe wont even try. You see, you haven't the first clue in regards to the efforts involved. Sure you might know the numbers needed and the equipment, but seriously whats that make you a head counter...
I mean come on go into the forum over there and play a game of wits with this super star wars fan circle. Harry Knowles said Lucas film offered him an original Frank Oz Yoda puppet, when someone asked him why he reviewed Sith so nicely. The damn idiot doesn't even realize that the puppet was made by Stuart Freeborn- who's career took off after doing the apes in 2001 a space Odyssey. The guy is a fat bag of tidbits taken from a imdb and google search. He cant write a real review to save his life. Instead he goes off on these films with these over drawn out Mein Komp's and by the time your finished reading one, you don't know what the hell kinda point this bastard was trying to make.
And Lets see what Mori has to say. I'm sure he will chime in with his stupid Big Labowski personal signature "Well, thats like your opinion man". I cant wait for their little empire to crumble around over their ears, but like Paris Hilton, some how the self proclaimed geeks survive. Deception is easy behind 104 keys. That site wont last long. They will outlive it. They will take a bad bribe and lose the creditability. I mean they are getting mega cash from someone Harry's a producer on a big film. I don't understand how a reviewer can get that kind of dough.
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there was so much repeating in the #1 talkback, i skipped through most of this one so if someone said more or less what i'm about to, oh well. anyway the leia remembering her mom thing isnt a plothole or a mistake or anything similar. its the result of a movie made before its sequel/prequel and nothing more. lucas might have had vague ideas of a prequel trilogy back in the 80's but i'm sure many details only came once he started writing Phantom. and one of those details is her mother, so back in 83,padme lived long enough for leia to remember and for whatever reason that was changed in the prequels. simple as that. i mean how many sequels and/or prequels contradict things said or done in the original movie? now considering all the changes he made to the OT for the special editions, you WOULD think he would have tried to fix this but he didnt. maybe he didnt notice, maybe he forgot or maybe he was lazy who knows. but it isnt any kinda of error, i mean really..that's just nitpicking. oh and i saw ROTS today for the first time and i enjoyed it a lot but i'm not a "star wars geek", just a guy who enjoyed the movies so there was no pedestal seating for me to compare anything to. my one and only real complaint is about sidious's makeup. it seems to look much different in the DVD scene in ESB then it did in ROTS. but its no biggie, doesnt make me think any less of the series.
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May 30, 2005 12:14:27 AM CDT
Waitasec...did someone say that Jar-Jar Binks was John Kerry?
by ribbons
Wasn't Jar-Jar Binks created in 1998, '99 or so? Meesa think that's highly unlikely.
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But we still need better sex education, and need to get off the abstinence only road. And I'm definitely going to see this movie memorial day weekend... probably a marathon of Star Wars...
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Jun 09, 2005 1:23:45 PM CDT
oops, i was going to say we can't totally say "if you're
by iamnicksaicnsn
It is something that only wackos say, because I just watched the episode of the Batman: TAS, where Ra's Al Ghul says Bush's exact line, "either you are with me, or you are against me."
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Where you at Orcus?
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whoever said they want their money from the cockslurping theater owner was correct. also the one who said that his ass caved in causing him to vomit shit all over the screen was also in tune with general sentiments.
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