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Herc Chats UpVERONICA MARS Creator Rob Thomas!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Rob Thomas created UPN’s “Veronica Mars” (a hilarious and enormously compelling series that stands out even in the kind of freshman class that includes the likes of “Battlestar Galactica” and “Lost”), and before that ABC’s wondrous “Cupid,” which starred Paula Marshall and Jeremy Piven. A statue should be erected in his honor, a very shiny plaque at minimum.
Ain’t It Cool swapped lots of email with Thomas between March 31 and April 19. The result follows.
.... AICN: At the Paley Fest's "Veronica Mars" event two weeks
ago, everybody kept making mention of how much darker
the pilot script was than what actually found its way
to air. Was Lilly decapitated? Were there depictions
of Veronica covering post-rape bruising with body makeup?
.... THOMAS: It was darker in tone, because the original pilot story left Veronica and Keith estranged. Veronica discovered, at the end of the pilot script, that Keith had been keeping her mother's letters from her. Also, the aftermath of the rape was a bit more graphic. We found her car vandalized. Graffiti on it read "Abel, it should've been her" with an arrow pointing to the driver's side window. Lilly was originally found submerged in the ocean a la Laci Peterson.
....You can actually download the original pilot script on my website www.slaverats.com.
.... AICN: I'm assuming that, if the first season hasn't
wrapped, you're at least within spitting distance.
How many more first-season installments will feature
guest superstar Alyson Hannigan?
.... THOMAS: Just one more [tonight’s]. Originally she was going to be in the finale, but she booked a pilot, and we couldn't quite make the dates work. We hope to see more of her next year, but it'll depend, to a large degree, on whether her new show goes to series.
.... AICN: The backstory attending "Veronica Mars" stretches
far before the title character's birth. Is it safe to
say Keith Mars grew up outside Neptune? Jake Kane
obviously did go to Neptune High, but was he a
Weevil-like have-not at the time? Was Lianne a rich
girl when Jake was chasing her about?
.... THOMAS: In the original pilot script Keith talked about driving around Schenectady as a 20-year-old. Before casting Enrico, the line was Omaha, so I had originally wanted a very middle-American dad to play against the wealthy beach town folk. Enrico did look very Nebraskan, thus the change to Schenectady.
....Though it was never spelled out, I've always imagined that the Jake/Lianne relationship mirrored the Veronica/Duncan relationship. Working class girl. Preppy boy.
.... AICN: We now know that Veronica's hometown is modeled on
Santa Barbara. But the show feels somehow like it's
set further south. Does Neptune nestle in the O.C.?
.... THOMAS: More like San Juan Capistrano.
.... AICN: I remember registering some surprise when it was
revealed Duncan Kane dumped Veronica *before* young
Lilly's demise. Am I remembering correctly? Did
Veronica never ask Duncan about the whys and
wherefores of their untimely de-coupling?
.... THOMAS: He never gave her a chance. It was like a faucet the suddenly turned off. The break up pre-dated the murder by only a couple of weeks, so by the time Veronica might have mustered the wherewithal to demand an answer, the breakup took a back seat to the murder.
.... AICN: We do learn in the season finale why Duncan dumped
Veronica, right?
.... THOMAS: Even sooner than that.
.... AICN: Like all right-thinking Americans, I was also
nerdishly obsessed in the 1990s with ABC's short-lived
"Cupid." I know you created and wrote for it, but
I've no idea if you held "showrunner" status. If you
will, kindly compare and contrast the creative control
you enjoyed now versus then.
.... THOMAS: I created Cupid after only a season television experience writing for season one of Dawson's Creek. ABC hired showrunners to run Cupid, but from the beginning I shepherded half the episodes and Jeff Reno and Ron Osborn, the Moonlighting guys they hired, shepherded the other half. Eight episodes into the season, ABC asked Columbia Tri Star to fire Reno and Osborn and promote me to EP and showrunner.
....Reno and Osborn believe I pulled off some Machiavellian scheme to have them ousted. I didn't. I liked them and thought they were terrific writers. As far as shotgun weddings go, it was better than most. Those guys were a bit jokier than I was, and I think Jeremy Piven preferred my scripts and wanted me running the show. Jeremy had Jamie Tarses's ear. That's how I think it went down, but it was all a bit murky.
....When Cupid was struggling, the studio, in particular, and to a much lesser extent, the network tried to "fix" the show. They wanted more upbeat endings, more stunt casting. We'd have script and cut notes meetings that would take an hour or longer. There was constant creative interference from both entities, but, really, primarily from the studio. The network executives really did like the show, and other than canceling us, were very supportive.
....But it was a struggle every week to get my vision on the screen.
....With Veronica Mars, things are very different. UPN and Warner Brothers couldn't support us more creatively. I can't tell you how rare it is to have a network not try to "fix" a show when it's not doing the numbers they want. UPN has told us. "You're doing the show we want. It's our job to bring the viewers to it." They treat me as though we were a top ten show. They certainly give feedback, and they ask questions, and they do give notes, but they're on the same page, and, honestly, they're usually good notes. Also rare.
....When I was doing Cupid, I was working with Scott Winant, the director/producer who's done My So Called Life and thirtysomething. He handled production and post production. All I had to do was work with the writing staff and churn out scripts. Consequently, I wrote a lot more scripts on Cupid. With Veronica Mars, I spend a lot more time on the cuts, casting, sound, score than I ever did with Cupid. I write fewer scripts, though I'm in the room breaking each episode, and I do a set of notes and polish each script.
....I'm not sure if I've become a better writer in the gap between Cupid and Veronica Mars, but I know I've become a better producer.
.... AICN: A recent episode dealt with a student-teacher
affair. Did anything like this ever transpire during
your tenure as a high school instructor? Do you think
this sort of thing is like amnesia -- something you
see all the time in TV and movies, but (Mary Kay
Laturno notwithstanding) almost never in life?
.... THOMAS: Actually, I think it probably happens at every other high school in the country. My first novel dealt with this subject. The best teacher at the high school I attended did jail time for his relationship with a female student, and I based Rats Saw God on a fictional interpretation of the affair as seen through the eyes of a jealous boyfriend. Interestingly, I also wrote the Pacey sleeps with teacher episode of Dawson's Creek. (Or maybe that's not interesting.)
.... AICN: Teens being incredibly volatile and almost organically unable to keep their mouths shut, how can any teacher hope to get away with this? Did your school's best teacher yell "I regret nothing!" as he was hauled off to stir?
.... THOMAS: I don't think there's a lot of rational thought that goes into these relationships.
....I was no longer around when that particular teacher was arrested, but I can almost guarantee you it was not a defiant moment for him.
.... AICN: The Lynn Echolls disappearance plotline defies
pattern because it stretches over several episodes but
is not tied to Lilly's murder. Or is it?
.... THOMAS: I think I'll take the fifth on this one.
.... AICN: Are you wholly satisfied masterminding one of TV's
most beloved shows, or does ambition drive you these
days to actively contemplate new series and/or features?
.... THOMAS: I am both satisfied and ambitious. I have a project at FX right now, a comedy in the British "Office" vein about cater-waiters in Los Angeles. Musicians, actors, writers, comedians who follow their dream to Hollywood and find themselves at 30 wondering whether it's time to give up the dream and get a real job. I'm doing the show with friends -- Paul Rudd, (Veronica Mars producer) Dan Etheridge and (Veronica Mars writer) John Enbom. We just got a pretty positive reaction to the script. Now, we were developing this before Veronica Mars was ever ordered to series. We originally sold it to HBO, but they wanted it to be more inside-showbiz show and we wanted it to be more of an outside-showbiz show.
....I'd also like to do a companion piece to Veronica Mars, own a whole night on UPN. I've been adapting my third novel, Satellite Down, into a pilot that I'd love to sell to UPN next year. It's an edgy, teen-centric show that would be a perfect fit.
....That said, if nothing happens with any other irons I have in the fire, I'm completely happy right now. This has been a big 39th year for me. New show. New baby. New wife. I'm as happy as I've ever been.
....As proud as I am of season one of Veronica Mars, I think we've gotten better as the season has gone on, and I think the creative peaks for most shows happen in season 2 and 3. We've come up with the big mystery for season 2, and I can't wait to introduce it.
....
.... AICN: Enough with the teasing! Will the season-two
mystery be related in any way to the events of season
one? Can you say if the season-two mystery will
involve a murder?
.... THOMAS: I'd love to be able to answer that, but if the case isn't related to Season 1, I'd still want the events of Season 1 to serve as a red herring. If it is related to season 1, then I would want the new people we bring in for Season 2 to be suspects. I feel like I'd be eliminating half the possibilities if I answer the question.
....There will be death. And, frankly, I still think I'm saying too much.
.... AICN: Leaving aside for the moment the many filmed
entertainments on which you yourself have labored,
what do you believe to be the finest hourlong series
ever crafted for American television?
.... THOMAS: The show I most adore would be The Office, but you've limited me to American series. I'd put Mr. Show on the short list. The Sopranos. Freaks and Geeks. If the Simpsons would've called it quits after season five, it would be there for me. Oh, wait. I can't read. You said hour-long. Uh...then I'll stick with Freaks and Geeks and The Sopranos.
.... AICN: I have white-hot fiery love for "Freaks and
Geeks." Did you see Fox's "Undeclared"? It was Judd
Apatow's kinda-sequel to "Geeks," and may have been
every bit as good.
.... THOMAS: I'll admit that I merely liked Undeclared. I loved F&G.
.... AICN: Did you see the last "Sopranos" season with Steve
Buscemi? Do you feel the show gets better as it goes
along? Or do you feel it peaked with Nancy Marchand?
.... THOMAS: I don't think it's lost steam. I think some fans who show up for mob hits might have lost some enthusiasm, but Tony's journey is every bit as complex and interesting as it was in the first season -- for me.
.... AICN: At the '80s dance Duncan was dressed as Duckie
from "Pretty in Pink." When you were in high school,
with which John Hughes character did you most identify?
.... THOMAS: If you limit me to John Hughes movies, my unfortunate choice would have to be Emilio Estevez in Breakfast Club. I was very much the straight and narrow all-American jock who wanted everyone to like him. The biggest teen movie influence on me, however, would've been Nicolas Cage in Valley Girl. I quit playing football at TCU, shaved and dyed my hair in odd places, started a band, began dressing Salvation Army chic.
.... AICN: Kristen Bell has told TV Guide that 1.22 will be a
cliffhanger, but we won't learn of the Big Mystery of
Season Two until the latter part of 2.1. Confirm or
deny!
.... THOMAS: Confirmed.
.... AICN: Have you seen "Cutter's Way"? What's the best
movie ever?
.... THOMAS: Oh, I can watch The Big Lebowski every month. I loved Rushmore. The Bad News Bears.
.... AICN: It was revealed this week that pretty journalism
instructor Mallory Dent was sidelined by pregnancy!
Care to speculate as to whom might be the father?
Hasn't Duane Daniels been playing Van Clemmons much
more guiltily in recent weeks??
.... THOMAS: Anyone who is playing close attention would know instantly that it was Vinnie Van Lowe.
.... AICN: Do you think there's any chance Veronica will NOT
somehow follow Keith into private investigation or law
enforcement?
.... THOMAS: No. Cancellation will be the only thing that could stop Veronica from a career in law enforcement.
.... AICN: I wonder if, given the rigors of producing as fine
a show as "Veronica Mars," you've seen much television
this season. How much have you glimpsed of "Lost,"
"Battlestar Galactica," or "Medium," for example?
.... THOMAS: I've seen five episodes of Lost. A friend gave them to me on a DVD. I enjoyed them, but I suppose I didn't get hooked enough to Tivo it each week afterwards. I haven't seen Medium or Battlestar Galactica, but the glowing reviews of BG have made me set my Tivo. I want to catch it from the beginning of a cycle, though.
.... AICN: The title sequence. I can't fast-forward fast
enough through the "Enterprise" and "Medium" titles,
but that "We Used To Be Friends" song gets the blood
pumping every week. From which episode comes that
great final shot of Kristen Bell, as she stalks
slow-mo toward the camera with that pissed-off look on
her kisser? What is she thinking as she glares our way?
.... THOMAS: We shot that bit specifically for the title sequence. It's so difficult getting enough footage for main titles when you only have one episode under your belt that we shot some extra footage during the pilot. I love Kristen's _expression. It's not my favorite outfit, though. She's thinking, "Can they please write a B story that doesn't involve Veronica, so I can have a day off."
.... AICN: Have you had a gander at UPN's hourlong development slate? If UPN's Dawn Ostroff sauntered up and said you could could have any lead-in except your pal Joel
Silver's "The Studio," would your pick be the latest
"America's Next Top Model"?
.... THOMAS: My pick would be Top Model. It's their biggest show. I feel like we retain the audience that sees watches us a couple of times, but it's difficult to get people to switch to UPN. I say that, however, not knowing the premise of any of the UPN pilots.
.... AICN: Are you aware in any way of how thoroughly your
show has been embraced by fans of "Buffy the Vampire
Slayer"? Do you feel any obligation to purchase and
watch at least the season-two box set?
.... THOMAS: I am aware of the number of Buffy fans that have become Veronica Mars fans. I've seen enough of Buffy to understand why. While I don't really feel obligated to watch Buffy's second season, I might find time to do it this summer anyway.
Look! Shows enjoyed by
“Veronica Mars” mastermind Rob Thomas:
Freaks and Geeks
The Office
The Simpsons
The Sopranos
Look! More genius shows
featuring plucky female protagonists:
Alias
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Freaks and Geeks
Gilmore Girls
Wonderfalls
Look! Books written by Rob Thomas!
The type one reads:
Rats Saw God
Satellite Down
Green Thumb
Looking for bumper stickers, plush toys and girls’ underwear covered with cute cartoon double-amputees? Visit The Herc Store!
“Veronica Mars” mastermind Rob Thomas:
Freaks and Geeks
The Office
The Simpsons
The Sopranos
featuring plucky female protagonists:
Alias
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Freaks and Geeks
Gilmore Girls
Wonderfalls
The type one reads:
Rats Saw God
Satellite Down
Green Thumb
Looking for bumper stickers, plush toys and girls’ underwear covered with cute cartoon double-amputees? Visit The Herc Store!
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+ Expand All
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Arrested Development is such a better show!!!
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For the first time in many years. All of my favorite new shows have not only mustered a full season, but have been renewed. I'm not prepared to deal with this happening.
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Apr 19, 2005 10:33:33 PM CDT
Well, let me be the first to say: Mr. Thomas, watch Buffy seaso
by jtylor
I mean, really, you said it yourself: most shows hit their stride in the second and third seasons, and Buffy definitely hits its stride. Though many hold season five in high regard, seasons two and three are good good good.
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I kinda liked "Cupid" and I didn't know Rob was a part of that. Very interesting show. Any chance that show will be of DVD?
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Apr 19, 2005 10:36:58 PM CDT
wow, i guess that dude from matchbox twenty is pretty talented a
by toe jam
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So is Satelite Down!
Go get both, I suggest fans of Veronica Mars read all his books, his novels were the tomes of my teenage years. -
So is Satelite Down!
Go get both, I suggest fans of Veronica Mars read all his books, his novels were the tomes of my teenage years. -
...since it took a couple weeks off and I checked out HOUSE with Hugh Laurie. It's great, I love it to death. Veronica is a good show and all, but I'll catch up in the summer. Or maybe just get the dvds when they come out.
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If Veronica and Duncan broke up "weeks" before the murder, why was Duncan's mom calling Veronica "days" before the murder?
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OK, *maybe* you could say "if they called it quits after season 8" and not sound ridiculous, although even then, I think tha would still be both churlish and presumptuous. But season FIVE? Are you serious? Do people really prefer seasons 1 + 2 of the Simpsons to seasons 6 + 7? What are the problems with seasons 6 and 7? Homer doesn't sound enough like Walter Matthau? The animation is too nice? Bart doesn't say "don't have a cow" enough??
Seasons 3-8 of the Simpsons are uninterrupted brilliance. Season 9 is very, very good. Seasons 10-present have been hit-and-miss (with more misses around the season 11-12 area), but not legacy destroyers. They won't leave the bad taste in your mouth the way the post-Mulder X-Files will. -
Apr 20, 2005 12:21:30 AM CDT
The last GOOD ep of Simpsons was "30 Minutes Over Tokyo"! It's h
by grabthars_hammer
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Apr 20, 2005 12:26:27 AM CDT
Herc, this whole page has been the gayest I have ever seen you.
by grabthars_hammer
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I wish that someone would ask him about Veronica Mars' first season on DVD. I'd be all over that. I know the season's not over, but Lost and DH already have release dates.
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not that i blame you for it, buffy is amazing.
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That pretty much sums up geek nostalgia problems. No group of people have as much of a problem with their past as pop culture junkies. The Simpsons have not faded off. The writers had a rough past from seasons 7-10, but Dana Gould has remedied all of this. Yet, pop culture folks just cannot get over the past. Just cannot get over that first episode they saw, or that first season that blew them away. Or seasons two-six, that rocked their socks. Pop culture fanatics just cannot let the past go. The Simpsons have not become shit. You just cannot get over your own shit. But hey, it's human nature to hold on strongly to the past. No one will hold it against you, but do not front. We all know you are holding it against countless shows or movies that have somehow not rocked your socks off as much as they did in the past. Sure things gone bad, but...
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Apr 20, 2005 4:12:42 AM CDT
I've always liked Rob Thomas. He speaks eloquently, succinctly,
by jim jam bongs
Unfortunately, in comparison, I've always found Joss Whedon to be an annoying interview. You know he's college educated and thoughtful but his words seem to sound like that of a 12-year-old girl's. Worse, he seems to do it on purpose and gives the impression he think it's clever. It's just awful and creepy.
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Inquiring minds.....
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why they continue to claim he is also the frontman for a successful poprock band...
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Let go Herc. She's gone.
www.theletterd.blogspot.com -
It's good. I loved Cupid, but I didn't know he wrote novels. I'm going to pick them up now.
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does he think that by ALWAYS talking about the show, he might have a chance with the chick from the show. only plausible scenario: he's at a convention or a press meeting...Herc: hey, i'm herc... i write a lot about your show, i even interviewed the show's creator!!! veronica mars (coldly): that's nice...(and as she looks down to avoid his perv eye contact, she sees him wanking it, full speed, and he screams VERONICAAAAAAA!!!! and then she screams, and then a little girl screams, and then ET screams!!!)
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does he think that by ALWAYS talking about the show, he might have a chance with the chick from the show. only plausible scenario: he's at a convention or a press meeting...Herc: hey, i'm herc... i write a lot about your show, i even interviewed the show's creator!!! veronica mars (coldly): that's nice...(and as she looks down to avoid his perv eye contact, she sees him wanking it, full speed, and he screams VERONICAAAAAAA!!!! and then she screams, and then a little girl screams, and then ET screams!!!)
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If your cousin's uncle's friend's wife's gardener ever has anything to do with one of Herc's favorites, especially anything to do with Buffy, just go ahead and get that restraining order in place. Seriously. That interview was disturbing.
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Herc, how did the question about CUTTER'S WAY come up? It's interesting that Thomas responded with a comment about BIG LEBOWSKI-- I've always felt that BL is an unacknowledged musical remake of CW.
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I would rather watch a "bad" episode of The Simpsons then just about any other show on TV. Arrestes Develepment and a few others are good, but the bad writing on The Simpsons is still better then most of the garbage out there
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It's at my expense, but I laughed so hard I'm still crying. There is a big germ of truth there. Perhaps also for every talkbacker. The (coldly) part nails it. Must. Avoid. Comicon. .... BUT (and this is the important part) EVERY show, from the George Lopez Show to According to Jim has a hot girl on it. Am I wrong? Eva Langoria of Desperate Housewives is, in my view, markedly hotter than superhottie Kristen Bell. They ALL have hot girls. So maybe a TV show has to have more than a hot girl to solicit my support? Is there a flaw in my logic here?
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...is your assessmsnt of Eva Longoria. No way is she hotter than Kristen Bell. She's not even the hottest housewife. I'd place her third, after Marcia Cross, and Teri. ......................
(Me, at random TV/Comic convention: "Veronica, I told the whole world how much hotter you are than the Desperate housewives". 'Wank, wank, wank) -
Apr 20, 2005 11:17:24 PM CDT
I come to this message board to purposely escape from overhyped
by prof. pop-cult
I gave that show a chance when it premiered, but concluded it's probably just not for me or my demographic (28-year-old nerdish guy). Maybe that's why I find the characters to be nothing but annoying harpies. You know the show is getting overexposed when news sites like MSNBC.com provide weekly recaps, Playboy features a "real-life Desperate Housewives" pictorial, and the ABC publicity department fabricates "rumors" of the cast not getting along, or one of them being gay. I mean, really, what a bunch of pointless, cheesy crap. What can Coaxial do for this show, other than to repeat ad nauseum what most of us are already sick of about it? And I'd like to think it's not just because of its popularity why it's not covered here. I agree that I don't think most of us here are interested in the show. But what about Lost, which is also hugely popular? I'd like to think with Herc allowing us to discuss it on Talkback, then perhaps we can encourage the writers of that show not to draw out the island mysteries (if this site has any influence with TV show producers, of which I am not sure). I personally feel Coaxial works best when it champions the shows that are unique, quirky, that are the underdog in the ratings, and which deserve a shot at survival. A show like Veronica deserves that. DH doesn't need it.
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Apr 20, 2005 11:21:17 PM CDT
To add to the confusion of the two Rob Thomases, I think VM's Ro
by jim jam bongs
...And to make things even more confusing in a wink-wink way, cast the Matchbox 20 guy as the producer of a teen drama TV series that is shooting an episode at Neptune High.
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I've been waiting all season for a closing credit: "This week's Veronica Mars featured music by Rob Thomas".
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...but I've always wanted to. IT just feels so late in the game. And I'll admit, I LIKE Desperate Housewives, but I also LOVED Angel...so where do I fit in? I feel as if I'm pressured to only like one or the other from Herc, here. As for VM, hopefully UPN reruns all the eps in the summer. Kristen Bell was smokin' in Reffer Madness (sorry for the pun).
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Where's the edit button?
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Because Logan convinced me she wouldn't have committed suicide--and all we know is something did fall from the bridge. If it was her, there's no way to be sure she wasn't pushed. It just smells like murder to me. Also, can we start putting money on the inevitable break up between her and Logan? The moment they kissed I knew he's gotta be guilty of something, either Veronica's rape or maybe even Lily's murder. I trust no relationships on TV ever!
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I'll give her a mystery to solve.....'what happened to the condom?'
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