Cool News
CARNIVALE Season Finale!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
"You really should have knocked first."
"This is your house."
"Welcome aboard, Brother Justin."
If you’re like me? You can’t get enough of morbidly obese middle-aged bearded ladies indulging their sexual cravings!
The good news is HBO is calling it a “season” finale. The bad news is HBO still hasn’t greenlighted a third season.
Now. the last thing we saw was Brother Justin waking up and discovering that a) black stuff comes out of his face and b) the Carnivale has set up shop just down the street. Presumably Justin will now simply kill them all with his Russian brain.
Then I guess Ben Hawkins will crawl out from under Justin’s porch and bring them all back to life. Then before Samson can say, “Shake the dust,” Brother Justin will use his powerful mutant brain to kill them all again. Except for Justin’s Gypsy daughter, Sophie. Justin will just maybe bend her over the dining-room table while delivering a radio sermon on KZAK.
So if HBO gives “Carnivale” a third season, with what will it deal? Will it just be Justin and Sophie, traveling the dust bowl? Preaching to God-fearing Christians by day and using his brain to kill them at night?
Take up valuable bandwidth with your predictions and reactions.
10 p.m. Sunday. HBO.
Looking for bumper stickers, plush toys and girls’ underwear covered with cute cartoon double-amputees? Visit The Herc Store!
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I can honestly say that Carnivale is the most enjoyable show out of ANYTHING on TV that I watch. Out of Alisa, 24, Southpark, the reality shows, ect... I do not look forward to any of them weekly as much as I do Carnivale. Keep it running.
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And on the day of the quickening....there will be only one............The one being Sophie's and Ben's child...conceived in a moment of passion which brought on a thunderstorm of incredible power....after all, Sophie is the omega.....but what the hell do I know.
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Mar 27, 2005 5:21:23 AM CST
the "stuff" that came out of Brother Justin's face wasn't black.
by kintar0
It was blue. Y'know, the Usher? Bleeds blue?
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This has been one of the single greatest seasons of television ever. I remember ragging on it during the 1st season because it was so slow, but now I'm eating crow-no pun intended. How great was last week's scene with Jonesy getting the carnival on Ben's side by revealing his "healing". Man, that was great. I can't wait for Season 3. c'mon, if The wire can get renewed with it's low ratings, so can Samson and the gang.
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on Television, this series is a perfect example. I've watched this from episode 1 and think this is one of the best shows on the air, it's great how they take their time to develop plots/characters slowly. No matter what happens tonight, I'm sure there will be plenty of room for another season. My only question was Linda Hunt the voice of Managment?
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and yes, it's Linda Hunt.
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Man, I can't wait until Ben and Justin finally throw down. Perhaps Season 3 will deal with the coming birth of Sophie's obviously unborn child by Ben, or explain what those visions of a nuclear holocaust were all about.
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In an interview, Knauff said that his concept for Carnivale is THREE separate stories, each lasting two seasons each. WHat does this mean? Well, not entirely sure, but speculation has it that this particular story (Ben VS Justin) may end tonight. And if the show gets picked up, a new story with new people may pick up. Personally, if I were doing it...I'd go the Lucas route and do the next two seasons as a prequel. Show Scudder and Bialykov in Russia, Scudder's inital meeting and partnership with Lodz, Justin's childhood, The Carnivale being taken over by Management, etc. And then the last two seasons, show what happens with the future of Ben, Justin, Sophie, and the Carnivale. Show the end of the time of MAGIC. WOuld be a great way to have an entirely COMPLETE U.S. Series. In the UK, they constantly wrap series up in nice little bunches. I can't remember the last time a series was wrapped up that nicely in the U.S.
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Here's my hunch: In the next episode, Justin is going to die and it might not be Ben who kills him. The point is, Sophie, being his daughter, is going to inherit his avatarhood. Ultimately, she has no choice in the matter. Even Justin started out with good intentions. It's just the way things work. Ben's father was an Avatar. Justins father was an avatar. We've seen dream sequences (when Sophie was wandering lost) that hinted Sophie might be the avatar before Justin turned out to be. We also know that Justin is Sophies father, and Iris let is slip that Justin was obsessed with Sophies mother - it was fate, and his avatar lingeage driving him to move events inexorably forward. Sophies mother tried to kill her because she knew what she was - and where she came from - and what she would inevitably become. To further complicate matters, its very likely shes knocked up. Also recall the bomb explosion dream sequences. In the end, Ben and Sophie might be forced to destroy themselves together - a nuclear blast the only thing powerful enough to finish them off - to end it once and for all. That would be the only way. But then it might have more to do with the child than themselves... Rosemary's Baby, anyone? Who knows. Regardless, there's one last seasons worth of material left there to tie together all these lingering questions, hints, clues, and promises.
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I've heard a lot of ideas on how this should continue, but yours is the not only the most logical, but the one I'd be most likely to enjoy. Hope we get the chance to see if you're right.
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I'm, sure that's the second reference to black stuff or perhaps oily stuff on a character's face I've read in the last day or two. The first reference was probably about the Carnivale finale too, but it was in a story about something else. This is one of those stupid things where something won't stop bugging you till you remember, but does anyone know where that other reference was? I'm pretty sure it would have been on AICN but it might have been another site - I'm sure it's something I read only yesterday or whatever - but I can't find it anywhere. Oh well, it's stupid, but if by the remote chance anyone has any idea what I'm talking about could they reply here and let me know?
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At last year's Museum of Television & Radio Festival in L.A., the CARNIVALE evening which included the cast, producers and creator..creator Daniel Knauf clearly said "HBO had committed to the three-season storyline"...probably next January will be the series finale shows....
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Sophie and Ben have the same father
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Are you watching some different Carnivale than everybody else? Henry Scudder was Ben's father. Justin is Sophie's pops. Didn't see the episode where Scudder and Justin were conjoined twins.
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HBO might've greenlighted (or greenlit? I always thought it was like "highlighted") the first season committing in spirit to a 3 season storyline, but that doesn't mean they don't have the option to cancel it if they don't like where the show is going. Or, more cynically, if they don't feel like the show is generating enough buzz. HBO has gotten somewhat addicted to a certain amount of attention that other networks (namely F/X & ABC) have been stealing as of late... Just because HBO doesn't have to worry about ratings doesn't mean they stick with a program if it's not generating new subscribers. You better believe some accountant somewhere is doing the math -- cost of production for season 3 of Carnies versus subscriber projections while their marketing people are trying to formulate the buzz-worthiness of their current shows in development. The final numbers might not be good for Carnavale...
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I've got CarnAsaurs on the brain... (okay, fine, that's a typo too, since even that is spelled with an O -- but it's an intentional typo)
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Not sure what that means, but it must be important. But since it's been established that the avatar and usher have offspring that are opposite (Scudder->Ben, Management/Russian->Brother Justin) then that would mean Sophie is the next creature of light (if she really is Justin's daughter), and that her (possible) unborn child from Ben would be the creature of dark. So, depending on the outcome of Ben and Justin's battle, the next would involve Sophie and her own child. Has this occured to anyone else?
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You make a good point, but perhaps you forget Arli$$ how long did they keep that on? It have very low ratings but they kept it on for SEVEN count them SEVEN YEARS! It wasn't terrible but the ratings were lack-luster at best. I actully really enjoy Carnivale, I hope to see it for more years than Dead Like Me.
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I thought it was pretty obvious that Justin is rounding up his own forces within the U.S. government to do his bidding. We've already seen him getting his followers to vote for whomever he wants them to vote for. I think the nuclear vision Ben had is Justin's endgame and what Ben ultimately needs to stop.
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I love this show. There is nothing else like it. Man, that season finale was fantastic. I have to know what happens next. I love the characters.
I hope HBO will commit to a 3rd season. -
...can the top this? I mean, *where* does a third season go from here? That episode was a helluva way to end the poker game then kick over the table bigtime.
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........wow.
really.
wow. -
For some moments in life there are no words...however, there are words for this moment, and those words are "HOLY FUCK!!!"
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... I also think, though, that Arliss would never make it on HBO today. That show snuck in the brief post-Dream On pre-Sex and the City era. HBO has now seen just how high the ceiling can go... (and Carnivale is a lot more expensive to produce than Arliss). Here's hoping Carnie comes back. (My bet is that it will)
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Mar 27, 2005 11:21:55 PM CST
All I can say is that series looked like it was going to a very
by rogue_leader
where Jones went and rescued Sophie and then she (presumably) killed him. NOW THAT was some surprising shit. My only lingering question is what happened to Justin? Did he stay dead or did Sophie heal him? I dont think Sophie has that power that Ben has so I dont think she could heal him. After all Justin is her father and not Scudder. So it would not make any snese for her to have that power. Not to mention it would take a hell of alot more than killing some corn to bring forth the power to ressurect Justin. My best guess is Sophie will be the villian in Season 2 with Ben trying to stop her. Assuming there is a season 3.
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That was one hell of a finale. It's good to see a show that won't pull any punches. They had better deliver us a season 3.
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Mar 27, 2005 11:33:51 PM CST
I am sorry but I still dont see how Sophie could've cured Justin
by rogue_leader
I mean first of sll where would she get that power from? Justin? Clearly not! He doesn't have that kind of power to give life. ONly to take it. Secondly how would killing a bunch of corn in a field bring Justin back to life? MAkes no sense. The rules have been clearly established. You need to take a life in order to give a life. Now Jones could've been a candidate for this, but he was killed WELL before Justin. The series made it clear that the person you take the life from has has have that life "transferred" so to speak at the moment of ressurection. So once again this seems unlikely. Not to mention it would make the whole showdown between Justin and Ben in Season 2's finale rather pointless if Justin came back to life. However, anyway we will see what happens.
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So for those of you confused, here's what happened. When justin was killed, his power went on to his next generation-Sofie. Just like when Ben killed Management, Management's powers went to his offspring-Justin. The thing is that the good/evil powers switch each generation. Ben's offspring will have the dark powers and will battle Sofie, who has the healing powers now.
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After all, he's not exactly human. Perhaps there was a tiny spark of life left in him, and the life energy from the corn was enough to keep him going for just a while longer. But I think it's safe to assume his true nature has been revealed to his followers, and he might have trouble getting them to do his bidding.
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While it's true that the good/evil powers switch with each generation, Ben was the recipient when management (the previous good entity) died at his hand. And Justin received his full powers only after killing Scudder (the previous evil being). In order for Sophie to get her (good) powers, she'd have to kill Ben.
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Wow. I kinda think Sophie *does* potentially have the power to heal, as she inherits her father's power (Justin's). Who's to say that Ben and Justin's powers were inherently all that different, even if polar opposites. The good-evil switcheroo may be by choice or may not; I don't completely understand or buy Sophie's motivations for healing Justin at the end, for going to the dark side and getting all Dark Willow-eyed along with Justin. Unless it is simply inevitable and the dark version of herself ("it is your house") kinda took her over at that point. It explains a lot, like her mother's attempt to kill her...But it also does seem quite counter to her nature. (I agree with the point about how Justin seemed to be good-intentioned early on but clearly was evil.) I am further confused by Iris, the sister...who seemed to be against Justin in the last few episodes after a season and a half of doing great evil on his behalf. Where did that change come from? Quite disappointed by Jonsey's probably demise (sure looked like she shot him dead), but I liked the Sophie twist a lot. Seems each season we lose a really compelling character (the blind creepy Lotz first season, now Jonsey). They never resolved Lotz' statement that he'd be "back in the flesh," or the nuclear vision, not to mention lots of twisted side stuff, so of course there's plenty more for a season 3. Here's to hoping HBO renews; this was one of the best shows on this year and I think they definitely have the material to do a third season and set one up quite nicely, while still satisfying somewhat for the sake of a "finale." ...I really liked the final image of Ben as the new "management." Classic.
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I like the theory that it was perhaps Sophie's (and Ben's) baby who was doing the healing at the end. :)
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I was under the impression that Ben's powers increased after he killed management. But perhaps all he acquired was wisdom, and blue blood. Same goes for Justin. But I still don't understand why Sophie shot Jones, or would want to resurrect Justin.
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This was broyught up in the IMDB Carnivale boards and I would like to share it here:
rev 13 2-3
The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
rev 13 12-15
He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword.
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Perhaps Jonesy, was the life taken to bring back Justin.
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Worth reading if anyone's curious about prospects for a third season: http://s6.invisionfree.com/The_Baggage_Trailer/index.php?showtopic=149
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that was great!! F everything else.
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First: Great Show, one of the best. I hope it returns for another (if not more) seasons. 2nd, I was thinking that Sophie has a combination of powers (from both Ben and Justin). How, I am not sure. But she is the "omega,"...
I also think that Jonesy was killed to bring Justin back, but perhaps the corn was needed as well... I dunno.
Once again, great show and Virtual Satyr put some real interesting things on his/her post...(2 or 3 above me). -
my favorite moments, many of which had me yelling fuck yeah at the tv...
1. Appy cornering Sophie before revealing Sophie herself "This is YOUR house"
2. Samson, Jonesy, and Ben talking strategy in the trailer, for some reason this made me smile.
3.Samson addressing Stroud about leaving the weapons when he points to Balthus, "You ain't packin any iron are ya fella" hilarious.
4. Seeing the plan going into effect once Justin gets on Colossus, Stumpy's performance and Ben having no patience for it, that second "Enough!" had me rolling.
5. Justin going beserker on the carnivale was too cool for words and I loved Samson's oh shit face when Justin went all black eyed. "Run Kid!!"
6. Of course the chase through the fields which finally came to fruition, and Ben jumping Justin, just the way he turned to look at him when he was pretending to be the scarecrow was sweet.
7. Finally, the image of Hawkins being carried out of the field in a very christ like pose was very powerful. HBO I love this show, give them a 3rd season to finish the story. -
Sofie got Ben's powers when Ben shot his nut into her- that's why the sky erupted into rain- she has Justin's powers because she's his daughter- she only realized she had the powers when Appolonia came to her in the shed she was imprisoned in in her own form with black eyes and told her "this is your house"
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Mar 28, 2005 9:06:06 AM CST
Sorry premature post. I think you're all confused about stuff. J
by krims0nknite
Or I'm very confused. I could have sworn that in the flashback, Sophie was already like 8 or 9 and reading the tarot cards while he mother was being raped by Justin? Remember her mother was NOT the one with the powers to see things... SOPHIE was. And that is because she is Scutter's daughter. Ben is Scutter's son. They are half brother and sister. The one thing I'm wondering about is what IS Iris's power? She was born from Management too.. There are two brothers and two sisters. So far we have seen powers from two of the brothers, and one of the sisters... What does Iris do? She has to have something.
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you are very confused. Watch the episode again with the flashbacks- and that's plural- Sofie is first describing her living with her mother in the city- when we see the flashback of her reading the cards- then we see Iris remember the raping- Sofie is not in Iris' flashback.
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Maybe I'm a weak minded fool. But, I have loved this season of Carnivale up until this episode. As a practical matter, I was pissed when they took Lodz away from us. If they're taking Jonesy away as well, then screw them. I've disliked the actress who plays Sophie from the very beginning and have only just recently begun to have even a speck of sympathy for her. And now, they're setting her up to be this major player. Argh. That being said, I honestly think her switch of allegiance was bullshit. Can't imagine what motivation she would have to rez Justin. Oh and no one has mentioned "The power of Christ compels you!!!" Uh, isn't that what you're supposed to say after you command the demon to leave the possessed's body? So, that was a little cheesy. Still, I had to smile. That is, for the brief second until Justin gutted Norman. Hm. Evil wins again. Not sure I'm interested in renewal for that reason alone.
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First, a quickie: gboydama, Lodz is not gone, he said himself (to Lilah) that he'd be back in the flesh. Obviously something is going to happen on that front. Lazurus anyone? As to Sophie - good or evil is a CHOICE, even for the Avatars. Scudder CHOSE to be good, despite being the avatar of darkness. This is something I hope to see expanded on in regards to Sophie. Even if the lines to switch (good gives way to evil gives way to good), Sophie could choose to do evil, influenced as she is by her father. Justin tried to be good - Sophie could try to be evil. Then again, she could be some sort of combination. She's the Omega. Guess we wait and see what that means. Oh, and I disagree with Clancy Brown in his saying the show could move forward without Justin and Ben. Without Justin perhaps, if Sophie was to take his place, but loosing both would be far too much for the show to handle. Anyhow it's pretty clear both will be around should there be a season three. I suspect he's thinking of beyond that...
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Some people seem to be confused by sofie's apparent "turn" to evil and other things. Sofie, like Ben and Justin is an avatar. However, whether an avatar is "good" or "evil" is completely random light can beget light dark - dark etcetera. What is a little confusing is how she is an avatar even though she is a female (all the others throughout history were male) and what her being the "Omega" means. In fact, as I was writing this I just came up with a theory for what the Omega is. From Samson's monologue we have learned that with the creation of the nuclear bomb man "trades away wonder for reason". I think that Sofie is the Omega meaning she is the last Avatar (omega being the last letter of the greek alphabet for those who don't know) and that she will play a major role in whether good or evil prevail in the avataric battle. We saw in Ben's vision he and sofie in regular looking clothes kissing and she mentions "trials conquered" as part of the meaning of the cards I think that in the end Ben will have to stop Justin by healing sofie's spirit and somehow bringing her out of the darkness. For those who may not understand let me explain, Ben as we have seen numerous times can heal people physically but to do so he needs to take energy from something else. He can also heal someone's spirit, which he does almost subconsciously, but without hurting something else because unlike energy, love is a limitless resource that can be conjured out of thin air. He does this for the old stooped man whoring out his grandaughter and for sophie to the dismay of Applonia who is trying to kill sophie, even from beyond the grave, in order to help Ben. A lot of this info is from Daniel Knauf himself with a little speculation thrown in here or there.
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Mar 28, 2005 11:34:25 AM CST
Ignoring the BETS show on the air (DEADWOOD) just proves how WE
by ripper t. jones
Yankton is moving on the camp, Almas knocked up, W is gonna snuff a whore, Bullock got "intercoursed", Trixie "Milked" the gleet right outta Als prick and Ellsworth shows he aint no pussy.
BTW, Carnival is a big smelly piece of shit. The Scarecrow bit was pathetic. Gimmie a break.
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In a chat transcript about 2 weeks ago Daniel Knauf said some stuff that shines a light on all this. First of all, even though the Dark/Light switched families this generation, it need not do so all the time. Didn't child Justin or child Iris, in a flashback to the day Balthus found them in the woods, say that their father was a bad man? In that case, bad begot bad, so we know that can happen. But even if my memory of that flashback is wrong, Knauf still said outright that they don't always switch. It is more a function of that person's morality, in the early years of their own life (Child Justin killed the wounded man in the forest, right? ...which is when he "chose" evil, defaulting Ben, not yet born, to good). Knauf also said that women have never been avatars, so I'm not too sure about Sophie. Look at Iris - she's older than Justin but the power went to him because he's male. Sophie might be something else entirely (the Omega - either the bringer of the end of the world or maybe the end of the battle between light and darkness? Or maybe it's the baby inside her who is the Omega, the male child that joins both families, which is acting through her body?). But if Sophie herself IS an Avatar, then her black appearance to herself shows that she's on the cusp, that she has yet to choose light or dark, that she can still go either way. After all, while she is a main character, and well-liked by all of us fans, she still hasn't been morally very "light"; i.e., there's no reason for us to believe she'd pick "good" outright. Lets face it, everything with her mom messed her up. Her sexual revenge on Jones and the stripper chick was pretty nasty (and they flashed back to that moment as she started going nuts in the shed - it is a defining moment of her moral self). She had sex with a married man during the sandstorm. She told Justin that she was incapable of forgiveness. Heck, she was baptised by the Dark one. I mean, there is no guarantee that she's a generally good person and would just be a prophet (if she is an Avatar, which I do not think she is). But she both killed AND healed at the end of the finale. So, again, she can go either way. On a side note, there's also Gabe, the strongman, who Knauf said is an angel. Anyway, let me look for the chat link for y'all. If you want to discuss any of this stuff with the genius that is me, keep this talkback going!
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The carnies should get Josh Hartnett some chocolate, stat!
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What about you? Did this finale not rock your tube socks off?
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Methinks those execs at HBO have quite the clever sense of humor ...
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Omega means THE END or THE LAST. Sofie is the Omega because she is a Child of Darkness (Justin's kid) and a carrier of light (unborn child of Ben's). Somewhere along the lines, I think there's going to be an uber-baby. Essentially a child that will be the undoing of both (good and evil). Essentially the Armageddon baby/anti-christ/etc.
Too messed up? -
It seems like the healing power is confined to the "good" avatar. Mangement was able to restored Lodz's sight, Ben has the power and it appears Sophie has it too. On the other hand, the usher seems to have the ability to wreak havoc, but is unable to heal. So, since Sophie has the healing gift, isn't she now required to be a good avatar?
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Wow they did a great job with this episode. On the complaint of the cheesy line of "The power of Christ compels you..." I think that's exactly what he would say, he's a man of the cloth and I would presume that he thinks (and has thought for a long time) that Justin is possessed. I thought it had rained when Ben broke his nut in Sophie because it was a brother/sister sex thing and the powers at be were not happy. The whole Luke/Leia kiss does come to mind. I'll be Jonesy isn't dead, the shot didn't look totally fatal, who know Ben could bring his back in S3E1. Overall this episode Rocked. Thanks HBO, four more years please!
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Even though he was an Usher like Justin. He healed Ben in season 1 and it was mentioned he also healed Ruthie back when he was travelling with the Carnivale.
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Scudder was a COD. There is only one Usher...Justin.
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If Sophie did bring Justin back, then there's 2 of them against Ben! Yikes! Can't wait till NEXT SEASON...please bring it on!
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She is a great actress , I was shocked as hell to see her kill jonsey but being the kid of Justin means she gotta have some bad in her and with Bens kid in her there will be some big problems for her in the future that will inevitably lead to the shows endgame.
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http://www.mooncross.net/carnivale/transcripts/chat_knauf.html
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I hate shows that end like that. MFers!
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That season Finale was wild - and drives home the fact that this isn't even close to over. I'm not gonna be worried about HBO Greenlighting the series - I'm sure it'll be back. HBO just dosnt work like other networks, they'll give the go ahead for another season when it suits their purposes. But that dosn't make the pain of waiting any more tolerable. Here's to Carnivale S3 in 2006! God, what'll I do with my Sunday nights in the meantime?
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Here is why Sophie is 'the Omega'
She is obviously the next Evil Generation, and since the baby she is carrying is Bens, that means that it must be the next Good Generation. Which means that when Sophie is killed at the end of Season 3, it will have brought an end to the age-old battle once and for all, as when she dies, both the child of darkness and the child of light die at once, with no more generations to pass it on to. -
Has it occurred to anyone else that Ben might have been recovering from his wounds as the wagon train pulled out of town? The healing of himself and death of the corn mirroring the healing of the little girl and the dying wheat in the very first episode?
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I think its pretty clear that sophie was healing BJ when the corn started to die.
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could it be obvious when we're all wondering what it was? it could be her healing or it could be ben healing himself. the thing is we have no clue. we have no clue what sofie is now either. long wait til next yr
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Whenever someone is healed, it takes the life energy of what is closest. Ben was closer to the Carnivale folk and he wouldn't chance it. Sophie and Justin were in the corn field so it was Justin being healed.
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you asswipes that keep saying obviously before everything need to shut the hell up. If the last episode proved anything it's that nothing is obvious on this show. So give it a rest you egotistical jerks. That said yhis show makes my brain hurt yet I can't stop watching it. The episdoe was a bit disappointing to me but I think my hopes were too high. The fight between Justin and Ben seemed very anti-climatic.
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It looks like Sofie is healing Justin, but the last shot before you see the dying corn is of Ben in Management's trailer, and his trailer leads the death of the corn as it rolls by.
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I was truly upset when Sophie turned on Jonesy, but I had a feeling that Jonesy was going to die. I actually thought that Justin's thug would shoot him. I am hoping that Jonesy returns for season 3. I was really upset at the ending of season 1 when Jonesy died, but they brought him back. Maybe the writers will do it again. I could see Iris wandering lost up by the cabin and find Jonesy and nurse him back to health. All of my favorite scenes this season involved Jonesy. If Jonesy is dead, I hope his wife takes on a more active role in the Carnivale and in the battle of good vs. evil.
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Love the show and loved the season finale. Please let it be renewed.
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