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Herc: EPISODE I made I think $430 million domestically and I think the second one made about $120 million less. And George Lucas has said, “Oh, well, y’know, EPISODE III is going to be the least attended. Nobody’s going to be interested. There’s so much darkness in the third episode.” I just want to get everybody’s guess as to what the grosses for EPISODE III are going to be.
Quint: That’s an interesting question because I’ve been using that question as a way to prove that I’m right about all the prequels sucking. Comparing them to something like LORD OF THE RINGS which each movie has out-grossed the film before it. And each prequel has made so much less than the film before it.
Herc: I just want to point out that I just asked for a number.
Quint: In other words, I’m not sure because I think it will probably be higher than EPISODE II if only because it’s taking people like me who have been burned by the first two movies and giving me hope again.
Herc: Just throw a number out.
Quint: I think it’ll make a little more than EPISODE II because of the love for the original trilogy.
Frosty: Over 300 million. It’ll make more than II and it could make more than I if it’s really good.
Myxtplyk: Less than I. More than II.
Andre Dellamorte: I think EPISODE I benefited from people seeing it in the way they saw the original trilogy. Which is why it did 420. I think the third film will do about what the second film did. I think the same people who saw it multiple times will see this one multiple times. But PHANTOM MENACE was helped by the hype. These other two are just 300 million dollar films.
Kraken: Domestically, 354 million. World wide, 820.
Obi-Swan: It’s probably going to beat ATTACK OF THE CLONES by about 5 to 10 million. I agree with what Andre said. The fans who were still there for CLONES will be there for this one. There’s going to be a little more business due to the nostalgia, but...
Kraken: EPISODE I was the first chance to see a STAR WARS movie in twenty years. EPISODE III will be the last chance to see a STAR WARS movie ever.
Herc: Last I heard, Sara said EPISODE III was going to be the biggest STAR WARS movie of all time... that it will out-gross all the other movies.
Sara S: I said that, but I actually do think it’ll make almost 400, and I’m going to tell you why. I’ve got photographic evidence right here. When the DVDs came out, if you went to MovieFone, their top requested release date was EPISODE III. And even this past weekend, I took this picture will driving down the 101, it’s the billboard that drives around and tells you what the most requested film of the day is. And this is the day that THE INCREDIBLES came out. EPISODE III was the most requested movie on MovieFone.
Mr. Beaks: Today’s most requested Yahoo! search? Tara Reid. So, I assume ALONE IN THE DARK takes in, domestic, 250 million. Uwe Boll, welcome to mogul status. EPISODE III will do 220 million.
Frosty: Wow.
Herc: Ouch.
Jed the Hutt: I’m going with 420. That’s less than EPISODE I, but substantially more than EPISODE II. I think a lot of people are going to be seeing a lot of stuff multiple times in the theater. I think there’s going to be a real buzz towards big summer movies. I think having a new BATMAN movie in theaters the same time as a new final STAR WARS movie, I think it’s really going to energize people.
Frosty: That’s a really good point. It’s going to be advertised as “the final STAR WARS movie.”
Darth Tardy: I’m quite fond of 420, too.Ahem.
Darth Tardy: One, because, even if you didn’t like EPISODE I or II, the original trilogy DVDs have rekindled spirits. If he gets this right, then... I like JEDI, so three and a half ain’t bad.
Dr. H: I’m going to say 700, and the reason... I think Lucas wants to beat TITANIC. The movie is going to make 300, then Lucas is going to sell himself one ticket for 400 million. And then it’ll become the highest grossing film of all time.
Herc: I like Beaks’s answer. 220 to 250 is pretty reasonable. Unless it’s good, which is not my guess. My guess is that it’s probably not going to be any good. We’re all going to see it. We’re all excited. We all need that closure... even you, Obi-Swan. But I think based on the record that it has to be bad.
Quint: I’ve been on the record since the second film. Actually since the first film, but it was the second film when I officially said it. If Lucas gets EPISODE III right, then this is the reason to make the trilogy. This one movie is the only reason to even bother going back to the story at all. If he gets it right then a lot of the negativity will go away. He’s really playing up the nostalgia, which I really like. He’s actually making the sets look like the original trilogy for the first time. I hope that this is all an indication of the things to come, but I’m not going to get my hopes up.
Herc: Good or bad?
Quint: I have two answers for that. In my heart of hearts I hope it’s great. But my realistic side tells me that Lucas directs cartoons now.
Frosty: There is no debating it in my mind. This film is going to be good. I’m not even remotely concerned because everyone I’ve spoken to who’s been involved with making the film says very confidently that this is going to deliver. George Lucas did not write it. It was written by someone else. The only weakness I’ve heard is that it still has the cheesy lines line, “This party’s over.”
Herc: I have to stop you there, Frosty. This is the first time that I’ve heard the George Lucas did not write this film.I’d like to clear something up. At no point has anyone aside from Frosty Skywalker claimed that Lucas didn’t write this film. As I understand it, the initial drafts were entirely written by Lucas. The rumor about Tom Stoppard involved him doing a production dialogue polish. And that’s all. Lucas has sole screenplay credit on the film, and I don’t think that’s wildly inaccurate. In fact, it’s probably pretty close to true. Stoppard is a remarkable wordsmith, and there are some crucial dialogue moments in this movie that Lucas may well have needed to have another person’s help with. Beyond that, it’s his film, and saying otherwise is simply inaccurate.
Jed the Hutt: I’d just like to point out that we’ve mentioned the Tom Stoppard thing a lot. A lot. In every EPISODE III conversation I have I’m giving this news. So it’s not something that’s disseminated. It’s not something even that well known.
Myxtplyk: Well, it’s not like the movie can be a great movie. But if I was not good at all and II is decent, then I’m going to say III could be a good movie.
Andre Dellamorte: The problems with EPISODES I and II is that they were poorly written and poorly directed. If Stoppard fixes the writing and the plotting, then we might have something. Lucas is behind the camera, though, and I don’t think his heart’s in it anymore since PHANTOM MENACE... I agree with Beaks from earlier. If he does what he did with II, which is insert a CHICKEN RUN sequence and stuff like that and re-cut it until the last minute, then I think he’ll ruin his own dinner, as it were. But the Stoppard thing does give me a lot of hope.
Kraken: Bad.
Obi-Swan: Good or bad? I guess it really depends on what you consider to be good and bad when it comes to STAR WARS. It’s all from a certain point of view. I didn’t mind when Jar Jar stepped in a pile of shit in EPISODE I. In fact, I hope when Darth Vader takes his first steps in the costume he steps in a pile of shit. I think it’s going to be good.
Sara S: Honestly, I’m out of the predicting for all films. Seriously, I can’t judge. I haven’t read the script. I haven’t seen the film. Indications look like it could be good, but I’m abstaining. This is baloney.
Mr. Beaks: Essential Tom Stoppard... On The Razzle, Jumpers, The Real Thing, and Arcadia. Now, onto film... it’s going to be the best of the three. Not good enough to get the big audience back. Best of the three. Good or bad? I’m going to say good.
The room reacts, surprised by Beaks.
Dr. H: When you think about synchronicity and serendipity and forces at work in the universe, the fact that the next episode is called A NEW HOPE, leads us to believe that things are going to end on a downer for fans.
Herc: Remember, Vader doesn’t love Jesus.
Dr. H: However, I think II was better than I, and III will be better than II, and I liked II, so I think III is gonna be good.
Herc: Seven to five for good.
Jed the Hutt: But all of us have hope, even though STAR WARS fandom has changed so much in just the last ten years. We used to be so accepting of everything that was STAR WARS. Think about the Ewok cartoons and the Ewok movies. The Holiday Special. I mean, there’s been a lot of shitty STAR WARS stuff before the prequels. Why did we roll with it all? Why were we okay with it then, but Jar Jar stepping in shit – I can’t sleep at night. What’s changed?
Quint: The first Ewok movie scared the shit out of me as a kid.
Herc: You were very young.
Quint: Yeah, but that first Ewok movie was dark. That little girl’s parents got murdered in front of her eyes. It’s not soft-peddled.
Obi-Swan: About what Jed is saying, there’s been shitty STAR WARS for years but we never said anything about it. When I was a little kid, I think I knew that the Ewok movies were kind of shitty. The difference, though, between those Ewok movies and the prequels is that George Lucas is directing again. It’s almost like a promise. Even though he didn’t come out and make an announcement, saying, “Hey, guess what, these new STAR WARS movies are gonna rock because I’m back.” He didn’t do that, he just did it. We were just operating under the assumption that it was gonna be the 70’s all over again... that we were gonna get this major treat. And I’m not so sure we didn’t. I think we might be really screwed up. I think we got the goods too early and it really put the zap on our heads. And now it’s like nothing will do. These prequels could have been better, but... who knows? In twenty years we’ll still be arguing about it.
Kraken: Are you telling me that if Spielberg or David Fincher or any good director that has shown that he can do genre film had done the prequels we wouldn’t all be sitting here saying, “Oh, my god... EPISODE III is about to come out. We just had two orgasms and here’s the big one.” If Lucas had not directed and instead handed it over, are you telling me that we would all not be sitting here talking about how great the last ten years would have been?
Obi-Swan: I don’t think George Lucas should have handed over the reigns to the films in the first place. I think he should have directed EMPIRE and JEDI.
Herc’s heart skips a beat.
Obi-Swan: Because even if he had made mistakes, they would have been his mistakes. STAR WARS is George Lucas, even if George Lucas isn’t always STAR WARS. But as they are, I think EMPIRE and JEDI stink pretty strong of Lucas.
Andre Dellamorte: To your point about the Ewoks and the Holiday Special, that stuff wasn’t canon. The TV shows... that’s shit. That’s not canon. The books... no. You gotta go with the movies and the problem with the prequels is that they are the Holy Grail. You can say all you want about Knights Of The Old Republic or Battlefront. They’re all fun and good and I love ‘em. Don’t get me wrong, the video games have been better than the movies, in my opinion. Once you start dealing with the movies, though... this is EPISODE I... this is where the entire story of STAR WARS begins. You get into problems. For me, the energy of EPISODE IV is what carries it. It’s rough. It’s a lot of fun. It’s the energy, and I don’t see Lucas having that kind of energy with these films. Had these two prequels been well told, well plotted stories, I think we would be happy. Look at LORD OF THE RINGS. You can have expectations and have them met. I think if these had been better made films, I think people would have been super enthusiastic.
Myxtplyk: You bring up a great point. How Anakin turns to Vader in my mind... the films can never live up to that. The Red Sox won the World Series, so I guess anything can happen, but in my heart of hearts I know that nothing will live up to the expectations of STAR WARS fans.
Mr. Beaks: Nothing can match what’s in our heads, but there is competency. There’s a certain standard that is to be met. And that standard has not been met with these two films. It’s pretty obvious. They’re not well oiled machines. To go from EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, to go from these like Cracker Jack models of storytelling... (sighs) I don’t think it demanded too much. I think we just wanted something that was close to the level of the previous installments.
Dr. H: Watch a scene from EMPIRE, then imagine cutting to Dexter’s diner.
Sara S: You’re lying to yourself if you don’t think that loving STAR WARS is part of your infantilism of your adulthood. I love STAR WARS because it’s a reconnection to my childhood.
Mr. Beaks: That’s such incredible bullshit. That’s apologist bullshit.
Quint: I loved TROLL, by the way.
Mr. Beaks: I loved THE GRINCH WHO STOLE CHRISTMAS and it’s still a great story. We go back to Catcher In The Rye. These were great stories. The reason there is a STAR WARS franchise is because these were stories that were well told. Nobody is getting attached to these new stories. That’s why the box office is diminishing.
Myxtplyk: The Banking Clan versus... whoever...
Mr. Beaks: Yeah. And I’m not going to sit here and listen to apologist horseshit.
Quint: My little brother thought EPISODE I, at the time it came out, was the best STAR WARS movie. He doesn’t think that anymore, thank God.
Mr. Beaks: He thought it was the new flashy toy.
Quint: When EMPIRE came out, kids loved it, adults loved it, everybody loved it. My dad loved it just as much if not more than I did. The grandfather loves STAR WARS. And right now most adults are either very divided or they really dislike it.
Obi-Swan: Do you know why kids today don’t connect with the original trilogy? Because there’s no CG and it’s just a bunch of old Englishmen standing around on sets.
Kraken: Wait a minute. What kids today don’t like the original trilogy? My wife’s a substitute teacher and she teaches nine, ten, eleven year old kids. They fucking love the original trilogy. And they love the prequels, too. She even says that generally they love the originals more than the prequels. I don’t know if it’s because they’re seeing the Special Editions. My father would show me films from his childhood that I recognized as dated, but they were good films. I don’t think their response is based on a lack of CG.
Andre Dellamorte: There’s been a tremendous paradigm shift in the way movies are made and marketed. It has to be acknowledged if you’re discussing how kids view STAR WARS films versus how we viewed them. Most of us here are late twenties, early thirties, notable exceptions included. You have so many more kids films, so many more marketed to them. When we were born, it was at it’s absolute, I’m from ’76, Disney re-issues and shit like THE BLACK CAULDRON...
Someone shouts out THE BLACK HOLE.
Herc: There’s a lot of affection for that kind of thing, but you really have to grow up and look at it again and say, “Y’know... THE BLACK HOLE really was pretty fucking awful.”
Jed the Hutt: We’ve all got a variety of reasons and they’re all valid, but what we’re getting at is that STAR WARS fandom didn’t grow the way any of us thought it would. Why do we care? I’m probably the only person in this room who liked the MATRIX sequels.
Obi-Swan: I liked the MATRIX sequels a lot more than the original, too. The original is kind of one-note. It was a blast of fresh air for sci-fi genre films, but it’s one-note.
Quint: One quick point. Most people rag on JEDI and with good reason. But I think JEDI has some of the best stuff in the entire trilogy. All the stuff between Vader and Luke and the Emperor is absolutely top-notch. And there hasn’t been one bit where I could say that something in EPISODE I rivaled that. And I apologize to Sara and to Obi-Swan because feels like we’re negatively ganging up on them.
Herc: I just want to say that I think the stuff with Vader and Luke and the Emperor is incredibly repetitive and really turned me off on the series.
Dr. H: Thinking of EMPIRE, can anyone even remember what your expectation were?
Mr. Beaks: I remember precisely what I wanted.
Dr. H: Because it wasn’t what I expected. And it blew me away. It was beyond what I was expecting.
Kraken: I’ve met people who have never even seen the original trilogy and saw EPISODE I and II and think they’re shit. These are people who had no expectations. The original STAR WARS made it cool to be a geek. Geek culture existed, but it was in the closet until STAR WARS came out. I don’t think even Star Trek brought out the geeks and made it okay to be a geek. And now the prequels have made people ashamed again.
Andre Dellamorte: STAR WARS was a pop culture phenomenon and you’re branding it a geek thing. It wasn’t necessarily just a geek thing. The prequels and defending the prequels is a geek thing.
Mr. Beaks: Following up on ROCKY, it was a moment in the wake of Vietnam in which the good guys could win. Good and bad was very clearly defined. I don’t even know if we need that in this day and age. Even the good and bad in STAR WARS now is kind of hazy. To a degree.
Kraken: I don’t think the Vietnam thing had any reason to do with why people... I didn’t even know there was such a thing as war when...
Mr. Beaks: We might not have been the ones reacting to Vietnam and the time, but George Lucas was.
Sara S: Fandom, and not just for STAR WARS, has turned really ugly. They turn on each other. Websites are always after one another. There’s always one clan that’s trying to out-scoop another. Fandom used to be very fond. It used to be great and a total community. Now it’s really turfy anymore. Some of it’s funny, but some of it’s really awful. Even STAR WARS message boards especially are the meanest of these groups. They’re brutal towards each other nonstop. The L.A. FanForce won’t talk to the O.C. Fanforce. And they all fuckin’ really hate the San Diego FanForce. And if you think I’m kidding, I’m not. It’s crazy how, like even, our group, the LiningUp.net group, like, we try to get along with other groups but it gets, like, people say you guys are the attention whores or you guys are the fuckers. We just happen to like STAR WARS, too.There was a fascinating example of this recently when Josh Griffin on TheForce.net implied that he had seen a rough cut of EPISODE III, only to be called out on it by T-Bone, another long-time presence in the online STAR WARS community. T-Bone absolutely refuted many of the claims made by Griffin, who then went on to clarify that he never explicitly said he saw the film. It all got quite contentious, and the shame of it is that I like both guys and think they both know their stuff. They’ve both been responsible for great scoops in the years since 1997, and we really do seem to be reaching a point where even the people writing about STAR WARS have had their fill of the films and each other.
Kraken: I was just going to make a point about Butt-Numb-A-Thon and the Internet. It’s vicious because there is no face-to-face anymore. We used to have to drive long miles to get to conventions and see each other face-to-face to talk about these issues. It’s hard to be vile and mean to people when you’re standing right in front of them. In the Ain’t It Cool chat room, there are people I really don’t care for. Then I meet them at Butt-Numb-A-Thon and all of a sudden he’s a really nice guy. I didn’t want to just walk up and say, “You’re a dick in the chat room,” and spit on them and walk away. I gave them that chance and found out that they’re actually kind of cool. People are much more civilized in person, especially geeks. That’s why I think EPISODE I really suffered, because it was born at about the same time that the Internet really took off and went mainstream. People found the place where they could be the bitches that they are.
Andre Dellamorte: Also, the geekdom culture meant a lot more before the internet. It meant something to dress up, making your own homegrown costume. Now with the Internet you can see that everybody is doing it and there’s less a sense of sharing and more a sense of “mine is better than yours.”
Jed the Hutt: Turn off your computers. Good night, everybody.
Obi-Swan: If you could have George Lucas’s ear for just a moment and you know he’d hear you, what would you say? Even if he had no intention of doing what you say or really thinking about. What would you say to him?
Mr. Beaks: Make the films you want to make, man. The hell with us. Be a filmmaker, man!
Jed the Hutt: Thank you. Thank you for the happy memories I have about STAR WARS. Make the EPISODE III you want to make. Make the movies you want to make.
Darth Tardy: AWESOME!
Herc: EPISODE IV and EPISODE V are two of the best movies ever made. And you should hire Joss Whedon to do the TV series.
Obi-Swan: George, I’m saddened by the fact that you dropped out of filmmaking for so long. You raised a family and that’s great, but your art suffered as a result. We’ll never know what films we’ve lost and you’ll never know how great an artist you might have become if you had allowed yourself to continue to grow. But there’s always the future and I hope you remain productive for the rest of your life.
Quint: I don’t have anything to say because I don’t think Lucas would listen to anyone but his pocketbook. I don’t think he listens to one damn person. If I could actually reach his heart and have him listen to something I say, what I would tell him is to get himself a strong producer. There’s a way to placate the fans and still retain your own identify.
Frosty: Thank your for making some movies... some entertainment I really enjoy. And I really hope this new one will be good. Please be good.
Myxtplyk: George, thanks for the memories. And Baba-Booie to you all.
Andre Dellamorte: Hi, George... long time listener, first time caller. Couple of things. First, love the original trilogy. Can we have them as they were on DVD? Second, can I have my $18.50 back, please?
Kraken: Thanks for ILM. Thanks for THX. Thanks for the original trilogy. And please stop trying to use us as sponges to try and recoup your divorce money. Just remember who you were back when you were making THX 1138. You were a real filmmaker back then. You’re a real genius and I sense there is still good in you.Thanks, guys. I’ve got some goodies on the way to me right now, and I think we’re going to have to have another one of these in the next month or so. I’d like to get one more on the books for 2004, and then we’re into the final stretch, the months leading up to the release of 2005. I’ll close this out with my comment, which is simply this... expectations are the enemy of fandom. The more time you have to think about a film ahead of time, the more worked up you get about what something should be or what it might be, the more potent your sense of disappointment might end up being when the film doesn’t match what you had in your head. There has never been a film series with greater expectations placed on it than STAR WARS... not even LORD OF THE RINGS... and the result is that every single element of every movie is placed under a microscope by every single fan in a way that no piece of entertainment could withstand. In the end, I enjoy the universe of STAR WARS tremendously. I recently picked up BATTLEFRONT (or STAR WARS HALO, as I call it) for the PS2, and I find that it’s an enormous stress reliever, just being able to shoot Ewoks and Gungans, taking over the Galaxy, and seeing these iconic characters and vehicles under my control. And maybe for fans who have grown disenchanted with the films that Lucas is making, a game is the perfect solution. You can control what you’re watching, you can relive the things you already know you love, and you can leave the movies to those of us who simply want to see how the story already in motion plays out.
At the request of long-time Council member, Sarah S., I thought I'd post this:
LiningUp.Net is proud to announce plans for the Episode III-Revenge of the Sith line in front of the historic Grauman’s Chinese Theater in Los Angeles. The past two fundraising events combined have raised over $72,000 for the Starlight Children’s Foundation, and have drawn Star Wars fans from around the world to see the first screenings of the Star Wars Prequels. We invite all Star Wars fans to come and join us in May 2005 for what looks like the greatest Star Wars adventure yet!
CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION!!As always, thanks to the whole Council. Next time out, I want to involve a few of you guys, so start sending me your letters now telling me why you should be part of the LA Jedi Council, and also feel free to post topics in the Talk Back that you want to see us discuss next time.
"Moriarty" out.
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That's all I got.
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Try harder.
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You'll have a lot of people available then!
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Why do so many people put so much stock in a trailer? "Ooh, the trailer looked really good." Guess what, they can dazzle you all they want with the Star Wars trailers with the special effects, but that is not what has been wrong with those movies. The story telling sucks, the drama sucks. They can make an awesome trailer with a few minutes of special effects footage, but don't put too much stock in them, because they still don't address the inherent problems with the Star Wars movies of late.
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This is the first timed I have been excited about a film since Ep1.
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Lucas is still writing it. Lucas is still directing it. Now, since Lucas seems to be the benchmark for sell-out cinema, there is no way I think it will be a good movie. However, I will be excited for it, because, once upon a time, Lucas didnt suck, and everything was good. But it's over now. His time has come and gone. Sure, he can make a nice trailer, but to me, Star Wars died somewhere between 1995 and 1996, when Lucas thought that HE should write and direct everything, unfortunately, Star Wars, once the most revered title in all of fandom, has become nothing more than a punching bag for pissed off fans, which is a very discouraging thuoght.
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Anakin being traded from one form of slavery for another as the root of his discontention is a frikking brilliant idea. Add a love triangle between Obi-wan and Padme to trigger jealosy and rage. This trilogy should have been a drama, not the light, friendly, fluffy, stilted, PC action piece it was.
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$340 million if it's any good.
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As a Star Wars fan, I'm always interested to see what the Council has to say. More importantly, it helps me realize that I'm not alone in being a Star Wars fan who has mixed emotions about the prequels.
This group actually TALKS about the films, why they may or may not approve of what Lucas has been dishing out since 1999, without the namecalling and finger pointing.
I've been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember. I grew up on it and even still have a roll of unused Empire Strikes Back wallpaper sitting in my basement with the rest of my "Let's make Lucas Rich" collection. And I can say that I've been disappointed with these prequels but still be a proud fan of Star Wars.
There are so many things I like about these prequels (Darth Maul, the last 45 minutes of AOTC, Jedis haxxoring fools, Ewen McGregor, Natalie's midriff, etc.) that it frustrates the hell out of me when I think about what could have been.
I like Episode I to a small degree. There are things I'll watch it for, but I don't really watch the whole film anymore. With Episode II, I overall really enjoyed it (save for the terrible love story and some VERY stilted dialogue - and yes, I'm being kind) but still felt like something was missing.
I agree with the Council that Lucas really did put his heart into Episode I. I think he tried harder to get more fan support with Episode II, since it was more action-oriented and had less Jar-Jar. But the problem is he needs to make the films HE wants and not try to make everyone happy because that's NEVER going to happen.
I think Episode III will be the film the first two should have been.
In other words, it will be what should have been called Episode I.
It's funny how, in my opinion, the Lord of the Rings Trilogy just knocked it out of the park from the word "Go", with each getting better than the previous, both in terms of the story and in terms of box office (a rarity with sequels, to say the least). Whereas Lucas has been playing "catch-up" since he started the whole damn prequel trilogy! Each one has gotten better, but when you start with Episode I, could it REALLY be any worse?
The difference is that LOTR had great characters, writing and storytelling. The Star Wars Prequels have stilted, awkward dialogue, an unlikeable hero in Anakin and Lucas's unstable pacing.
I hold higher expectations for Episode III (and hope for no more mention of those damned midichlorians) and hope that Lucas can boat this marlin, mount it on the wall, and back away leaving all of us with some closure and some satisfaction.
I could be wrong - and honestly hope I'm not - but I think Episode III will be a fun, dark, exciting film.
Perfect? Hell no.
But fun? Yeah.
Hell, even a bad Star Wars film is better than most of the crap we get.
It's a shame Lucas didn't get someone like Brad Bird to work on these films. After The Incredibles and The Iron Giant, he's shown he can handle fast-paced action with incredible emotion (2D or 3D!).
And since these films have been all CGI anyways, he'd have been a natural pick!
Finally, I really wish Lucas woudl have gotten back with Lawrence Kasdan. He made The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi better pictures with his style of dialogue and storytelling. He could have been a major help in this process but Lucas chose to go it alone and we get this muddled story.
That's all I'll say on the matter, but thanks Moriarty and thanks to the Council for keeping us up to date and reminding us that it's okay to be disappointed in the world of Star Wars fans. -
Look, I'm not going through this again. AICN people tricked me into seeing Episode 2 in the theater, and it sucked so very much. This time, I. Am. Not. Going. I'm watching this one safe at home where I don't have to pay twelve bucks and I can hit the stop button if it gets too depressing.
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...or does that Sara S seem like a bit of a pill? There's always one friend in the group who takes themselves WAY too seriously and plays the role of the wet blanket.
That aside, on a scale of 1 to 10, with Phantom being a 1 and Empire being a 10, I'm going to cross my fingers and hope for a respectable 7, which is where I put Return. -
I won't lie, the last Council caught me in a bad mood. I'm always up for SW talk as long as it is conversations we have not had before. We kept hitting upon some old topics I find tiresome, (rehashing Episodes I&II and all the "what-ifs" that occur, etc), and I was getting cranky. I want to look forward to what could be a great Episode III, and not worry about what could have been done with I & II. That being said, everyone knows I am a die-hard SW fan through and through and do not make any apologies for being one. The other "rah-rah" member Flmlvr was absent, so I was feeling a little alone!
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Nov 15, 2004 3:32:28 PM CST
Every Star Wars hater who wastes his time coming here to rip on
by i dunno
That is all.
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Nov 15, 2004 3:38:24 PM CST
Who are these nimrods and what qualifies them to talk about Star
by i dunno
They sound like industry analysts, the first ones to go in the 3rd big Ark they send to earth, along with the telephone sanitizers. I'm sure no one got that.
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I enjoy the hell out of all the Star Wars films so far, warts and all (ALL of them), and thoroughly expect I'll enjoy ROTS as well come May next year. I must confess I found this Council meeting to be completely boring, compared to the previous ones.
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Personally I felt you were a little ganged-up on. My sympathies (as a huge SW fan myself) were with you, through that bashing session that barely touched on ROTS.
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I would like to see a special on HBO about How Other Directors would have done Anakin Becoming Vader. Even if it was a series of talking heads explaining the transformation. Imagine Mace Windu in the Jedi Council chamber as played by Al Pacino.
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Nov 15, 2004 3:50:44 PM CST
Ever try to say two opposing statements at the same time? It com
by eye_h8_u
"It’s likes he’s opened up a new can of worms and he’s throwing stuff in there that really wasn’t an unresolved issue. Maybe I’m wrong and he’s gonna paint himself out of the corner. But don’t get me wrong. I love these movies, I just don’t think we needed them. ---Obi-Swan"
WTF?!
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Ummmm, if they were so dodgy how come Episode IV won the Best Visual Effects Oscar and V and VI won special Achievement Oscars, just so other films that came out those years would have a chance at winning in the regular category? The films were state of the art for their time and still hold up today. Get some historical perspective. What are you, 12 or something?
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Oh man Herc, you read my mind. I got so excited just thinking about that. The Star Wars TV show would no doubt be a hit if Joss were in charge of it. Man, I want this to happen so much. I'm afraid however, it won't and the TV show will suck. :(
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Nov 15, 2004 5:04:06 PM CST
You are scheduled to appear on May 25th, 2005 for the complaint
by jaguart
Yes. Eager to see the outcome. Eager to get it over with and put it all behind you. Maybe it will go in your favor. Its like a divorce court proceeding resolving your relationship with an ex-bitch you were madly in love with once, and still are. Oh well, we'll always have the Summer of 1977. Here's looking at you, George.
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...you know not at all of what you speak. The acting in the prequels makes Billy Dee Williams look like a master fucking thespian, and his was the only marginal performance in Empire. In fact, there isn't one of the prequels, for all of their flash and polish, that holds a candle to Empire in terms of the complete tapestry of mythology it weaves through a well written story, solid performances and special effects that still hold up today (even on my old VHS copies of the unaltered trilogy). You should hang your head in shame at the foolishness of the statement you made. As for the last of the prequels, it could be good. I'm allowing for that possibility. Hell, I'm even hoping for it. But Lucas wrote a pretty big check for this franchise with his mouth way back when Jedi came out and he indicated that he had story treatments near completion for SIX MORE installments.... three in front and three in back. That's what kept most of us original fans (I was five when the first film came out) salivating long after the closing credits rolled on the "Yub, yub!" song and why Lucas has made gobs and gobs of money merchandising the "expanded universe." He promised us more and fueld that spark of hope by tossing us a bone every now and then but always dangling those other six films just out of reach. Of course we flipped when we saw the trailer for TPM. We'd been waiting twenty years for this story to continue... for the other pieces of the puzzle we knew were there (because we were told they were). And when we got them and realized they were little more than an effort to sell more toys and hook a new generation with (with shorter attention spans), we were righteously pissed. Lucas set himself up to fail by pre-hyping the other six films (probably because fans were so lukewarm (pun intended) on the teddy bear portions of Jedi. He put all the pressure on himself and then just dropped the ball with a shitty and nonsensical start to his prequel trilogy and a so-so-at-best follow on. If this is truly it (and who knows whether Lucas might be tempted to go back to the money tree for a third go-round in another five or ten years), then he'd better get it the fuck right if he wants to convince anyone he can make any other kind of film a success in the future.
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...but I'm willing to bet that a few weeks after EpIII opens the phrase "The Sith hits the fan" will be used for "funny" ads, much like the Yoda-as-superhero ads in 2001. That is all.
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Nov 15, 2004 5:23:12 PM CST
"And right now most adults are either very divided or they reall
by atticus finch
Quint, I'd like to know from where you get this information. Did you conduct a survey or take a poll of "most adults"? The truth is, you have no fucking idea what "most adults" think about anything.
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maybe you should hitch-hike back through the galaxy... Hehe...
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That's all I'm saying.
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I'm not one to chime in on these Talk Backs, but I feel I must say something today. Herc, dude, you really need to remove your lips from Joss Whedon's nutsack. The last thing the Star Wars Universe needs is to be "Buffy-fied" by Joss and his team. Okay, we all get it, you enjoy the Whedon family of television programming, but I must say that to subject the planned Star Wars TV show to the likes of Joss Whedon would be a disservice. I'm also against Kevin Smith having anything to do with the series. I do agree with Myxtplyk that David Milch, or someone else with a background in serious dramatic television, should be involed.
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Sidious was the original, made a clone, and kills it once it becomes Emperor.
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Does anyone here read shupershadow? I do from time to time mostly when I get bored. I love how he is always saying that fans prefer the prequels to the original trilogy. It's so obviously not true that it makes me wonder if he's really George Lucas in disguise.
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Now what if these films were released in order (Ep, 1,2,3,etc)?? How less-annoyed would people be in the direction it took from episode to episode? How much more dramatic would some of the saga's "suprises" be!?
-The little boy in Ep. 1 turns out to be the most feared killer in the universe.
-The annoying boy in Ep. 2 turns out to be the most respected Bounty Hunter in the universe.
-Yoda and Obi Wan go from Jedi heroes to outcasts on desolate planets
-All the Jedi (save a select few) in Eps 1&2 die
-Those two goofy droids last the entire series
-That goofy little sphere graphic in Ep.2 turns out to be a gigantic planet killer in Ep.4.
Etc, etc, etc....
Ponder if you wish,
Fievel
That would be -
I think they still have that big question to answer, or has everyone forgtten Shmi Skywalker's lame excuse? I think Palpatine will be revealed to be Luke's grandad.
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Bigger than "Phantom Menace."
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That was the best comment of all that I read. It had me cracking up.
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Howcome the jedi can't do shit? They can't fight a war, start an investigation, hell, they can't even fuck. They can't see the dark side comming, and even droids can kick their ass. I almost think Palpatine is justified in taking the sissy-bitches out.
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"Lucas wouldn't listen to anyone but his pocketbook." Implying that he really hasn't done shit with these prequels except make money. Hey Quint, you bash Lucas for being a money grubber, but how much of that fuckin council did you morons dedicate to talking about box office receipts of the series. Seems to me that you should give a shit about BO. Fucking asinine. Like much of that Council meeting. Pure trash. Where the fucking discussion of, well, let's see... PLOT POINTS??? RUMORS??? God forbid, SPOILERS??? Barely mentioned at all! Mostly two pages of trash talking about box office, Lucas losing his touch (we've never heard that before), and SW website drama. PUH-leeze.
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Nov 15, 2004 9:30:26 PM CST
Oh, and fix the fucking talkbacks. Good lord, how tough is it??
by lamerz
FIRST!
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Oh, and that was the SECOND Ewok movie where the parents get killed...BUTTMUNCH!
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Let me get this right. Herc believes Lucas, who has a proven box office hit track record with these films, will drop the ball on the most anticipated of ALL the STAR WARS movies -- that is, the one where Obi Wan and Anakin go at it and Vader is born -- yet stupifyingly he believes hack Whedon will turn in a great FIREFLY movie...which is already ludicrous, given that how can you possibly turn in a good movie based around a failed and crappy TV show that was utter shit (as is all of Whedon's work). And of course, in regards to a SW TV show, naturally Herc ALSO thinks Whedon should be the showrunner. Riiiiiiight. Because THAT'S the kind of STAR WARS TV show we all want to see. A Star Wars show by Whedon would translate into more bad TV filled with pedestrian writing, performed by truly groan inducing bad actors, who perpetually act as sexually ambiguous twas, and which is thematically NOT about the Force but instead all about "girl power." Riiiiiight. Great idea! (Rodney Dangerfield eye roll)
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Nov 15, 2004 11:05:16 PM CST
Fuck Star Wars, where's the SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS reviews?
by napoleondynamite
Come on, not one review? SOMEBODY must have seen it by now.
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PLANT!!!
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Probably one the reasons I like The Phantom Menace as much as the earlier films is purity. I think it was pretty much the film he wanted to make, and frankly it felt that way. I fucking hated Jar Jar, but you know what, George apparently like'd the character for whatever reason. It's his vision, his universe, I'm just peeking my head in to see what he's got cookin. I was not at all crazy about AOTC, I felt he was backtracking trying to appease, I think he was slammed hard by the response to TPM and wasn't sure what to do about it. Well, George, here's what you DON'T do, NEVER compromise your vision for some other fuckwit. If they are "disappointed" by what you have created, they can chew on a disposable cock, or if you wanna be polite, tell them that's their right and your sorry they felt that way. I mean, really, I don't think you went through all the trouble of maintaining the rights to your universe just so you can flip it upside down whenever a whiny shitdrop like myself bitches about Jar Jar or any other facet of YOUR universe. I may not like all of your choices baby, but I sure as fuck need to respect them, let's hope this last one is done the way it's "supposed" to be done, YOUR way.
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Nov 16, 2004 1:13:51 AM CST
Wow, I never quite imagined the level of self-indulgence out the
by devil0509
This is my first time clicking on a Jedi Council. Holy shit. I'm blown away. Never in my wildest dreams did I think a group of people could take themselves so seriously. To sit around for, how long? and talk about this shit, then to type it out as if anyone in the world wants to read it! What was this? Was it seriously a bunch of yahoos blathering about a couple of mediocre flicks they have seen, and then another one they haven't seen, with no particular insight or information, then actually taking the time to transcribe it and post it on the net? You people actually seem to think you're doing something worthwhile here. I don't know whether to think you folks are lucky for having nothing more pressing to worry about in your lives, or sad that you actually devote this much time and effort to something so completely meaningless. Oh well, have fun, post a review or two when you actually see the movie - especially Quint, who tends to write worthwhile reviews.
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Nov 16, 2004 1:19:32 AM CST
We can argue all we want, but the FACT remains that from a filmm
by industrykiller
Which isn't to say I don't enjoy them in a childlike "Lightsabers and Jedis! Oh My!!" sort of way. But they aren't good films. No matter how much you like them. And an intelligent argument that says they are good films will NEVER top an intelligent argument saying they aren't. They utterly fail from a filmmaking, storytelling, and acting standpoint. And we will still love them on the goodwill of the original trilogy but we will always wonder what could have been. It's a tragedy is what it is.
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Nov 16, 2004 1:28:42 AM CST
I have to go take a dump in the Uwe Boll...Look! It's shaped lik
by dogsoup
I can't believe WB passed on Warren Ellis' Global Frequency. Idiot move WB, just what I'd expect.
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Nov 16, 2004 1:46:12 AM CST
Quint: if lower box office "proves" anything, then Empire is the
by ashfett
Quint said "I
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I can't believe that you guys think this is a bad line. That line is genius. If Tom Stoppard is responsible for that line then there might yet be hope for Episode 3.
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- This one HAS to be good (yea no one has been saying that for the past year now)
on and on -
Nov 16, 2004 2:41:19 AM CST
I find Talkback more enjoyable then these dropkicks. Let me ella
by theginger twit
you feel like a Battered housewife because of what star wars has become? Grow a sack you wankers. You think Lucas hasn't put his heart into these films? Bullshit! Go and watch the dvd extra's of Episode 1 and 2 and then watch the dvd extras on the re-release dvd's making episode 3. Lucas hasn't put his heart into these films? You guys are fucking morons. Maybe this will be the film that ties the two trilogies together? Duh! Parts of you guys wish that the new trilogy was never made, you just don't think we needed them. Yes, life is just so tremendously bad because George Lucas decided to make 3 more star wars films. Oh, where's my depression medication, I just can't take this visious world. You fucking wingers. You like Epsiode 1 and 2 but he just didn't give everybody what they wanted.... Come again? I wanted george lucas to bring us the stories that lead to the original trilogy, I wanted John Williams to write more of his fantastic score. I wanted to see All those old characters back, and see how everything ties together. I wanted to see new and spectactular special effects. What the FUCK did you want?? So episode 3 has to be good because you had to sit through the fucking pod race? Yes that Pod race was just plain hell wasn't it. It has nothing on the whole of Return of the jedi, especially that speeder chase through the woods. I'd like to just interject some star wars hating of my own here. I watched the original unaltered return of the jedi in widescreen the otherday. NOW THAT was a piece of shit waisted film!!
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THIS IS IT, IVE HAD ENOUGH OF ALL U FUCKING STAR WARS HATERS. YOU ALL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THEM (the prequels), FAIR ENOUGH, U ALL THINK YOUR 10 YEARS OLD AND ITS STILL 1981, FAIR ENOUGH, YOU ALL FAIL TO REALISE THAT WITHOUT THE MAN U CRITISE FOR RUINING YOUR FILMS, KEYWORD: YOUR FILMS, GEORGE LUCAS, YOU WOULD ALL HAVE NO STAR WARS TO BITCH AND MOAN ABOUT, YOU WOULD HAVE NO ILM, THX, PROBABLY NO SIMPSONS AS A RESULT OF STAR WARS SINGLE HANDEDLY LIFTING 20TH CENTURY FOX AND SO ON.
GROW UP, REALISE THAT THESE FILMS ARE MADE FOR 8-12 YEAR OLDS, NOT PPL WHO WERE 8-12 20 YEARS AGO, REALISE THE OT LOOKS REALLY DATED AND WILL BE LAUGHED AT BY 8-12 YEAR OLDS IN ANOTHER 20 YEARS TIME, REALISE THESE NEW STORIES NEED TO BE SEEN ON THEIR OWN, AS IN FUTURE THEY WILL BE SEEN IN ORDER 1 THRO 6, UNDERSTAND THAT THE OLD STAR WARS HAD WOODEN ACTORS (ex. "but i wanna go to thosi station and pick up some power convertors")
U KNOW WHAT, BAG STAR WARS ALL YOU WANT, BUT DONT U DARE FUCKING GO TO SEE IT, U HATE IT SO MUCH, IT LET U DOWN SO BAD BUT U STILL GO TO SEE IT, DONT. YOU HAVE THE CHOICE AND IF U SAY YOU DONT LIKE, DONT FUCKING GO AND SEE IT!!!
ACT LIKE UR 8-12 YEARS OLD AND YOU WILL LOVE THESE FILMS, BUT YOU WONT, ULL ACT LIKE THE 35 YEAR OLDS YOU ARE WHO DONT APPRECIATE THE ACTORS WHOSE IMAGINATIONS WORKED TIRELESSLY TO PRODUCE THE ILLUSION OR THE ARTS DEPARTMENT WHO TOILED TO CREATE MONSTERS AND ALIENS AND SHIPS THAT WE WOULD LOVE TO RECEIVE AS CHRISTMAS GIFTS ALL THOSE YEARS AGO, AND MOST IMPORTENTLY THOSE AT ILM WHO PRODUCE SUCH HIGH QUALITY DIGITAL IMAGES PACKED WITH DETAIL AND DEPTH, HATE THEM IF YOU WILL, BUT FIRST APPRECIATE THE WORK THAT WENT INTO CREATING IT. -
(To the tune of "My girl wants to party all the time") "Obi-wan wants to hit it from the back, hit it from the back, hit it from the ba-haaack.. old Ben wants to hit it from the back, hiiit it from the ba-hay-aaack." You know a Jedi could get over on your girl any time. Don't even front.
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Nov 16, 2004 3:17:53 AM CST
Jedi Council: where self-indulgent whiners do a really poor job
by jules windex
Blab blah trailer sucked blah blah poster sucked blah blah Clone Wars sucked blah blah TV series will suck blah blah Episode 3 will suck because of bad acting and dialogue, which somehow the OT doesn't have even MORE of.
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Someone in that mentioned that the kids parents were killed in the first movie...
The kid, Sindel, her parents survived the first movie, having been kidnapped by that ogre thing I believe it was.
The parents and her brother died in part 2 'Battle for Endor' which was so lame it was absurd... there just happens to be some other guy on the planet with a ship whos been there a while and they never realised it until just then...
Anyhow Im ashamed I remember that, but then, I didnt mind the first movie, but hated the second.
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Figures? Numbers? Grosses? What are you all, accountants? Who cares how much money it makes. It's a film for goodness sake, surely it's more imporatant that we enjoy it. On the 'dark side' though I'm sure that George will mess the music up, and have it sweeling when it needs to reflect, mix it down when it should be up - why it wouldn't surprise me if he went and reversed the channels for the rear surrounds.....bring back mono I say.
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Mori as Dooku and I think Mr. Beaks is supposed to be Obi-Wan. The Dooku/Moriarty photoshop job is decent but the Obi-Wan one is freakin gold.
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It's interesting to see how worked up people get over these movies, but Beaks truly sounds like a rotten human being. Have a nice day, you miserable schmuck.
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Sorry, but this was INCREDIBLY lame! Could it be worse?
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Nov 16, 2004 7:55:22 AM CST
More empty babbling not worth skimming. Oh, and... "I loved THE
by salvatoregravano
That statement alone invalidates any other "opinion" he might have on any movie-related subject.
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Just making conversation.
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...this council was so lame isn't the council's fault. It's that these prequels do some heavy sucking and that only a deranged uber-fanboy could get it up over Episode III's release. By the way- I finally sucked it up and went out and purchased the digitally enhanced OT- watched the whole fucking set including Empire of Dreams in a single shot and it only further confirmed how bad the prequels are. and I'll take Jabba's slave-slut Leia anyday over grubby little Natalie Portman. Whoever said that it was MAINLY chemistry missing from the PT has it dead on- and these apologists who grumble that the acting in the OT wasn't good either- that just isn't true- it's not apples and oranges- it's comparing HUMAN charismatic performances to acting and dialogue so wretched that it looks like they are walking around with loaves of shit in their pants- unable to change drawers. I can't count the number of genuine-looking smiles in the PT on my dick. Hey though man it's not too late. If Georgie would just have three accomplished directors take up 7, 8, and 9, then even Prequel bashing disenchanted scum such as myself (because supposedly I hate myself if I hate the prequels- according to some of these talkback moes) would actually get excited again about something new Star Wars. I won't hold my breath though. I'll choose instead to invest my hope in something sure- like Sin City and Brother's Grimm... Movies by people who still love to make them...
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Seanpb (peanut butter?)- you cry like a he-girl. here's your rattle and nuk. makes sense though- you said the prequel trilogy is for 8-12 year olds. You must fall into that category, eh? Go fly off a see-saw you little bastard
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Nov 16, 2004 10:11:26 AM CST
My god, does anyone even read all of this annoying nerd banter?
by boris the blade
KISS - Keep it short, stupids.
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Nov 16, 2004 11:05:43 AM CST
You guys forgot to adress the cringe inducing musical and dance
by blacket-man
Lucas is telling us this will be the darkest episode ever but he puts this on his site:
http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/artofrev/2004/10/artofrev20041018.html
You do not need Hyperspace to get to it. SCARY STUFF!!!! -
All the states with paper ballots matched the exit polls. All the states with e-voting gave Bush a huge swing, contrary to the exit polls. Ever get the feeling you've been conned?
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Nov 16, 2004 12:10:00 PM CST
Guy who sez Kerry won, Bush cheated - you are one stupid MF to b
by lamerz
Don't believe the hype. Moveon.org doesn't really love you.
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I think The Black Hole had great atmosphere and a real sense of mystery and awe. . .the mystery and awe that more of today's space epics ought to have! I wish Voyager had been more like this! "There are PEOPLE on board!..." The awful power of Maximilian as he rips into Anthony Perkins and the sickening sound Perkins made as his character was killed. . .the robot funeral. . .the horror as the robot's faceplate was ripped off. . .the funeral dirge that is played more than once in the film, most powerfully towards the end. . .and how can we forget Maximilian and Reinhardt in hell? That scene still creeps
me out, even today.
It may or may not hold up in 2004 as a great film, but it stirred the emotions, dammit!
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...and it was a far better film!!
ESB was better than ANH..and made the least amount of all SW films.
Why can't people just go out and check the films out. If they don't hit that sweet spot to you...fine. If so...great. They're just just fucking movies!! I like them all...some more than others...PT..OT they're all a good time. Lucas brought back that sense of "event" to the movies again. I missed seeing the scroll with JW's score blasting behind it. I love the scores that JW got to make. I love seeing all the characters back on screen. There's a lot worse out there...and this is far from really bad. I hate it when some fuck that hates the PT (because the loved the OT so much) claims that whenever somebody admits they like the PT...gets slammed and called an "appologist". How about the fact they actually like those movies and have different opinions. I hated the 1st two LOTR movies...and they were nominated for best picture. My friend won't even watch the 2nd two LOTR movies...even thought they grossed a bunch and got so much acclaim. The 1st one bored him so much...he snubbed the other two. I haven't watched any of them more than once or even own the DVD's. Why? Because the LOTR movies aren't worth more than one viewing and I don't have 9 hours to watch films a day.
It's a matter of preference. I'd watch Episode I 10,000 times in a row before watching another LOTR movie. And I liked the 3rd one.
Episode I had it's faults..for sure. But it was entertaining and had really amazing fun moments. Was it great...NO! But it was fun...a nice 1st chapter. Episode II felt more like Star Wars...the plot thickend and fun became more interesting.
Episode III..well..cool trailer...weird poster...neither matter to me until I see the movie. Until then...we'll see.
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...I am embarrassed enough having my written words amongst you nerds. Being a "GEEK" is still being a "GEEK"...which means that geeks are never cool. I'm cool...geeks are not. I have a geeky side...as do all...but I have a life. To let a movie experience ruin it...well that's why "GEEKS" aren't cool. Shunned by society and lose elections. Have fun in MAY FELLAS!!
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Nov 16, 2004 2:22:33 PM CST
The worst thing is that Suicide Booths are in public use yet
by mortsleam
Because really, what the hell are all of you people going to do with yourselves once you walk out the theater next May, having finally seen the movie you've apparently been waiting all your lives for. Perspective.
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That's brilliant. I never looked at it that way. It makes perfect sense. Anakin had no father, Qui-Gon was a good father figure but he died, Obi-wan was a bad father figure, and then Anakin turned to the dark side because he thought Palpatine would be a good father figure. It suits the SW story brilliantly because that's really what the OT is about, the father and son relationship. Luke also searches for a father figure, Obi-wan learned from his mistakes with Anakin, so he's a much better father figure to Luke, but he gets killed by Anakin, because he failed Anakin as a father figure, and as a result Luke hates Vader because Vader killed father figure to succeeded with Luke but failed with Anakin, then Anakin turns out to be Luke's father, and fails Luke as a father figure by being an evil bastard, then redeems himself by saving Luke in the end. Problem is it's hard to see any sort of depth to the characters in the prequels because the dialogue, plotting and acting is all so bad, and if Lucas had decided that Anakin's motive was a search for a father figure, we'd know by now because every second line from Anakin would be about how much he wants a father figure, considering the lack of subtlety in the prequels. The only character who worked for me in the prequels was Qui-Gon, and his relationship with Obi-wan was the only one which felt real. Hell, I'll almost call episode I a decent movie based on that, because I felt the barest hint of emotion when Qui-Gon died, whereas any attempt at emotion in Episode II seems laughable for some reason. I also agree with what Quint was saying. I won't give much of a shit when Anakin turns to the DS because I never really liked him that much. In the OT they make him out to be this great hero who turned bad but he's been whiny, annoying and arrogant from the start. I guess Obiswan has a point though when he says Lucas owes us nothing. He created Star Wars and Indiana Jones, two of the greatest gifts to film, so I'm done with the whole hating Lucas thing, but I'm still disappointed with the prequels, and I'm still hoping episode III turns out to be a damn good movie.
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This one is the worst in the series thus far.
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Why no sequels or prequels for HOWARD THE DUCK?!
And what kind of changes will there be on the special edition? Maybe that infamous hot tub scene with Lea Thompson can be put back in. -
I've said before at other Jedi Council talkbacks and I'll say it again:
Obi-Wan's story should have been the story arc of the prequels.
His comment in IV (and I'm paraphrasing) about being foolish in trying to train Vader always left me wondering who was the young Kenobi?
I think it would have been cool to see young Obi-Wan as a stubborn, impetuous hothead when he was a padawan.
My EP1 would show the old Jedi lifestyle which (according to Lucas in interviews back in the day) was modelled on the way the sumurai lived and operated.
No Coruscant, no midichloriens, no Yoda. Just wandering around the feudal galaxy going from planet to planet breaking up fights, starting some fights and doing some good.
When Obi-Wan takes on Anakin as his apprentice (in my EP2), we understand a little of where his hot-headedness comes from. As it is, I don't get where all Anakin's darkness comes from.
We'd see the beginning stages of the Clone War (2 or 3 battles) and are left hanging about where Obi-Wan and Anakin are.
My EP3 would have been an all out war movie as the final stages of the Clone War are totally shown. I would have had our two Jedi seriously divided over the direction of the war (a very topical debate whatever decade we're in) and split when Anakin decides the Dark Side is the way to go.
Luke and Leia are the result of a one-night stand in the midst of a bombed-out town on some planet. NOT Tatooine.
The kick-ass light saber battle happens on the last day of the war on the volcano.
The original trilogy gets new shading as Obi-Wan atones for his bad behaviour by being Luke's mentor.
Nothing revealed in the original trilogy gets ruined and everything still ties together.
In my mind, this is the opportunity the prequels blew.
ushaped
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...I think I was expecting something a lot more -- how should I say -- meaty. This was by far the most aenemic edition yet. Honestly, the average Star Wars TB is more entertaining, informative, stimulating and above all amusing than this JC. To paraphrase a talkbacker -- yousa been jarjarred. Jesus, what a load of hot air. James Lipton, eat your pretentious, pontificating heart out.
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Maximillian -- the coolest killer robot ever.
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If the next one is going to contain the same type of shit, don't even bother. A suggestion - discuss the plot, spoilers, and current rumors out there. There is so much interesting shit that you did not even touch on. It's really kind of pathetic that you thought this tripe merited not one, but two headlines on this popular site.
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Nov 16, 2004 8:25:10 PM CST
"Obi-Wan's story should have been the story arc of the prequels"
by anlashok
Where is it written that a story must contain only one arc? As far as I'm concerned Obi-wan is one of the main reasons I watch the prequels. He's my kind of Jedi, a stalwart monk-like warrior who lives only to serve. Who stands like a rock upon the beaches of adversity. I don't want no stinkin "love triangle" for Obi, he is beyond "pussy," the Force is his bitch, and he is the Forces. He neither asked nor gave quarter when he took it to Darth Maul, he upheld his duty when he sent Anakin to the land of the limbless ( High Midichlorian count be damned!) And He was a Paladin to the end as he steered Luke in the direction to bring down Vader and the Empire. I've said before and I'll say it again. Obi-wan kenobi= Bad Motherfucker!
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Nov 16, 2004 8:53:21 PM CST
The most utterly bullshit part about this "Jedi Council" was the
by commando cody
I agree with others -- this was by far the lamest of the lame when it comes to these so-called Jedi Council get togethers. With the movie only a few short months off, with more and more information now officially trickling out in either rumor form or verified form AND with the ACTUAL TEASER out...you boneheads sit around and discuss what SITH stands to rake in. What are you, goons, Fox shareholders? You have some money on the line here that will depend on how it's going to do? Here's a tip for you, Jedi losers: it's going to make a MINT. Relative to cost (since Lucas paid out of pocket) and relative to the fact that Lucas has perhaps THE (yes, I say "the" in capital letters) most lucrative profit sharing distribution deal in the history of cinema, not to mention side licensing it's going to make back its costs and make Lucas a few HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS. Yet you whiners want to predict numbers as if (1) that demonstrates taste -- which it doesn't and (2) that demonstrates how much the public still likes STAR WARS -- which again, isn't true either. Best example: people love James Bond, but the box office will naturally fluctuate movie to movie based on how good that PARTICULAR one was, who was starring, when it came out, what the marketing conditions were like, what was actually going on in the world at the time, etc. I can't believe you boneheads spent that much time debating box office figures so pointlessly. Next time have a discussion ABOUT the movies, ok? It'll be far less a waste of your time and those of us who take the time to read this assorted chats.
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since we are gradding the star wars chapters how about gradding the AICN council?
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I thought about trying to be clever and saying something stupid like, "A TV show? I have a bad feeling about this." But I won't. But I do have a bad feeling about it. What's with all this Joss Whedon love? I'd rather burn myself alive than ever watch another episode of Buffy. And that sci-fi show he did was stupid, too. There was a reason why it got canceled. The movie is going to make less money than I do annually. And I'm hovering around the poverty line, folks. I need to sell blood regularly in order to keep my internet service. How is a Star Wars TV show not going to end up like a another bland version of Star Trek? Which is a bunch of people on poorly built sets moralizing about issues no one really cares about. And ESPECIALLY if they syndicate this crap. Episodic television is about as terrible as it has ever been. We don't need this, and most people don't want it.
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Nov 17, 2004 12:54:44 AM CST
Moriarty - These guys seriously call themselves the jedi council
by theginger twit
No, what the fuck do you talk about? You talk shit about how star wars has ruined your lives and it shouldn't have happened. You really think that you haters are all so fucking high and mighty that Lucas will actually shun his head and not make episode 3. Mori, I know EXACTLY why you didn't attent this jedi council... because these people can't possibly be good friends to hang out with. I recommend for the next jedi council you round up some hardcore fans who want to talk about star wars. sure there can be some ratting out of aspects of the series, but for the love of all things living, give us something of substance, especially if we have to read two fucking articals of the damn thing. Seriously man, bagging out star wars just aint cool anymore. It's fucking retarded and boring. Especially when you take into consideration that the best films of the last 10 years have been either the star wars prequels, or films that have strived to be like the lucas films of yesteryear. I just don't buy into this star wars is dead argument, not by this council or by this talkback. Last night I watched in awe as episode 3 trailer played on a huge screen in the mall of my City. I shit you not, EVERYONE stopped and watched it. Star Wars is not dead yet! And I bet each and everyone of you here now would have stopped to join the silent celebration.
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Nov 17, 2004 1:36:10 AM CST
MAYBE EPISODE 3 WILL OUTGROSS OUR RECORD BUDGET DEFICIT OF $413
by bushsux
The first trilogy was far better than this series. That being said, I still enjoyed Menace and Clones, those movies were better than that critically-acclaimed boring Lord of The Rings. We all knew the second round of movies was going to be inferior, what was the surprise? It's kind of like the second Bush term, which is going to be even worse than the first term(yes, that would be an accomplishment). Half of Bush's cabinet is resigning because they know the second four years are going to be an even bigger disaster. Colin Powell, John Aschroft, Tom Ridge, they know what they're doing, they're quitting while they're still ahead. I want our country to prosper, I love it dearly, but if the only way we can teach these religious fanatics in the South and Midwest a lesson is by having the republicans run this country into the ground, then there is nothing I can do.
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now that senior cocolopez's adoring of the penis is overwith i will say, yes i was 8-12 when PM came out, and because of that i enjoyed my first star wars experience at the cinemas, i enjoyed attack of the clones because in 50 years time i will enjoy watching it sunday afternoon, i will remember what a ride star wars gave us all wheter it was good or bad and how it gave us somthing to talk about. these films make us wish we were certain characters, for example id take being eII anakin anyday over han solo, id rather be obi wan than luke, id rather be maul than chewie, id rather b jango than boba (seriously jango is so much better) hate them all u want (although, surprisingly, this forum hasnt been inundated with anti star wars jibes like previous ones, and i commend u all for that)but remember u used to look past the plot points, the love all that and u geniunely loved the movies cos of the way they looked and what happened in them. the duel in eI is better than almost everything the OT has to offer, the speeder chase in eII and obi-wan VS jango are better than most things in the OT so take it all in with some perspective. the PT has more excitment, something u must have to compete in todays action fantasy genres. lastly did anyone else pick up on alfred molinas george lucas jibe in the SM2 making of?
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Best. Merging. Of. Human. And. Robot. Ever.
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I'm not sure I agree. You say we knew this trilogy wouldn't be as good, but I think our disappointment has been because our hopes were so incredibly high for something even better. I remember thinking, "Wow...with today's technology this will be 'Star Wars' the way it was meant to be!" Oh, and by the way--don't buy the lie that people voted for Bush because of religious faith. Only 8% of those who voted said that religious faith was an important quality in their choice (from CNN).
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Okay seany- let me get this straight- you're saying you were 8-12 when phantom menace came out- you're saying that the prequel trilogy is ONLY made for 8-12 year olds- so you're saying that it's NOT intended for fans of the original trilogy? And you felt that that idiotic point was worth crying and screaming about before? The PT indeed has childish moments- I'd be a goon to deny that- but it is indeed the PREQUEL trilogy- it is supposed to be CONNECTED to the original trilogy. Without the OT- there is no PT. So don't sit there with your prepubescent bullshit- spelling INUNDATED correctly and EVERY OTHER WORD AROUND IT wrong trying to tell US who the movies are for and telling us that the OT sucks- Your mother should shove that Zwieback teething toast back into your wailing crotch mouth
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... a good point which I feel George Lucas could learn from- it's the reason that the Harry Potter books and movies are so successful with fans of that stuff- the books and movies GROW UP along with THE AUDIENCE. More and more adult themes are added into the novels as the main characters and the initial target market age. The films get "scarier"- in the books characters are supposedly about to be killed off and it gets less and less cutesy wootsey each time. This makes sense. WHAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE is to have a connected trilogy to a franchise from the seventies that communicates only to the younger set who can't fathom the convoluted storylines about trade federations but respond to bright shiny cgi and childish aliens with long tongues and little kids in pod racers saying things like "cool dude" or whatever. What further makes no sense is that it eventually has to be leagues darker anyway with episode III- so why even bother with this Jar Jar Binks bullshit? The REAL problem is perhaps Lucas was trying to cater to everyone. That's why when people say that ep. 1 was uncompromising it is such bullshit. There's probably even things for your pets in that movie. THX 1138 is uncompromising- not this prequel bullshit.
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Nov 17, 2004 9:28:19 AM CST
"when lucas made episode 1 he made exactly the movie he wanted t
by cocolopez
Bullshit. He made a movie for babies and for the pets that love them. And for everyone else- he threw in Darth Maul. Everyone says that Episode II was more compromised- because it was Lucas trying to please the fans more- but I suggest maybe it was the opposite. Episode I tried to cater to everyone- and when Lucas HIMSELF realized how bad the movie was (I mean c'mon- this IS the guy who gave us THX 1138 and in part the Indiana Jones movies- you think he doesn't know a bad movie when he sees one?) he decided to get real and make something less for everyone- hence EPISODE II- sure- people like it more than episode I- that's because when you compromise and try to sell the whole show to everyone it in reality pleases no one except for those young enough to not know what his motivations are. When he's concerned with just making a good film- it can be done. Forget about the franchise George. Forget about the toys and the cereal and the lunchboxes and the bedsheets and the shirts (you have enough money by now, no?) and just make a fucking GOOD MOVIE already.
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yeah I know I'm hogging this shit- but I need to say this- this is a site about movies and shit- STOP with the sore-losing political I hate Bush/Kerry was robbed nonsense. What's the matter? Even your friends won't listen to you whine anymore so you have to come onto AICN and bitch about it in unrelated forums? I partially blame Harry though for sucking so much Kerry ass to begin with- but is even he still crying about it?
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If the most requested search was for what time her movie is playing, then that would be a valid comparison. The reason for the high volume of traffic for Tara Reid was to see her breast exposed. Most people don't even know she has a movie coming out, dumb ass.
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ever end up as giant orgies? Like, someone says "okay, that's enough, let's wrap it up" and someone else says "let's break out the condoms and the KY" and then everyone's going down on each other and spurting jar-jar all over each other?
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Just thought I'd add that.
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Obviously the right-wingers would like to have the little people with their heads in the sand while the fat-cat republicans run this country into the ground. This is an entertainment site, unfortunately, conservatives are trying to change how we entertain ourselves in this country. Some TV stations can't even air Saving Private Ryan because they're afraid religious fanatics are going to complain to the FCC about the violence and language in the film. As for the relgious freaks making the difference in this election, even if it was just 8%( it was actually 22% but I'll play with you) that adds up to almost 10 million voters in an election that was decided by less than 3 million votes.
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ummm- no actually the whole Saving Private Ryan thing has nothing to do with religion. It is still reverberation from the whole Janet Jackson titty debacle- which was basically parents aghast at their kids seeing it- Is that a Catholic thing? And about this whole Bush thing- he won. Get over it. Maybe you should just admit that Kerry wasn't solid enough and that though Bush IS an asshole- he is an experienced asshole- and at least he'll make an asshole out of himself adamantly. And you know what? If Kerry won then arguing that it was because of Michael Moore is the same fucking thing. OF COURSE there's factors that contribute to a win in part- why on earth wouldn't there be? Me myself I voted for who I WANTED to win (Nader) and it wasn't the same as voting for Bush like everyone claims- and that's because KERRY HAD NO CHANCE of getting my vote. Fucker won New York anyway and SHIT here you go getting me talking about fucking politics sounding only a little less jerkwadish than you. This is a fucking Star Wars forum. I can come on and write "Yoga tongues large balls" and it will have more applied context than your bitching and moaning. Do shut up.
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that was meant to be "Yoda tongues large balls" be I'll be damned if even the typo wasn't more in context to the Star Wars debate than your sniveling.
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I love these Jedi Councils, reading fellow geeks wax on about the state of the Star Wars Universe gives me a warm fuzzy, whether I agree with them or not. Its like a meeting of the geek friends I wish I had (I
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I saw episode 2. I didn't buy the original DVDs and don't give a damn about them. I will not see episode 3 until it's on DVD. fuck star wars. I grew up loving those films. lucas is a tool.
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The council REALLLLLY needed Mori on hand to focus better. That was the weakest of all that I have read. I still look forward to the next one.
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Actually, bushsux, I was quoting the poll correctly. While 22% did say that moral values influenced their vote, only 8% identified religious faith as a reason for choosing their political candidate. "Moral Values" is an ambiguous term at best. Respecting a woman's right to choose is a moral value. We can't look at that 22% and assume it's a "religious right" thing. The 8%, then, is a better number. But then again, we can't make assumptions on that, either. Some religious faiths practice tolerance and acceptance of abortion and gay relationships, so we can't say that those who viewed religious faith as a deciding factor were automatically "religious right." The Christian right's role in this election is being vastly overblown. I'm more afraid of the warmongering crowd, which straddles all religious persuasions.
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my point was, they are movies made for boys in that age bracket, boys in that age bracket will b watching these films long after u have died from a unfortunent deep throat accident involving ur father. and also nobody gives a toss about your constant yammerings about which movies are good and why and what there moral, political and religious undertones are, thats the problem with todays cinema, too many wankers like you reading too much into the film, how about this, just for a change: try and enjoy the movie, just once, dont pick out plot holes or whatever just enjoy the film.
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hey you're so caught up on this "penis" thing- and now you've brought my "father" into this gay fantasy of yours? Dicks and fathers and Peanut Butter- that's some fantasy kid. And rigggggggght- so 8-12 year old bed wetters will be loving the prequels from now until the end of time. What the fuck's your point? Is this in DEFENSE of the prequels? I sit some sort of accomplishment to have prepubescent litter runts giddy over whispy tongued Gungans and bowl headed babies pod racing? You must have fallen into the "8" year old bracket when TPM was released. It's quite clear that your thoughts aren't much developed. The only thing that's clear is that you have this gay fantasy about my penis- well hey Seany would you like me to describe it in detail for you? I also don't recall me bringing up religion in regards to the Prequel trilogy- but you don't know WHAT the fuck you're jabbering about, do you? It's almost cute the way we can see if we squint reeeeeal hard the semblance of actual thoughts coalescing within your struggling thirteen year old mind. C'mon champ! there's an actual cognizant clue jusssssst over the next hill... you can do it!
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Nov 18, 2004 10:49:17 AM CST
Agreed. KK will own EpIII, tops 275-280 mil if good maybe 299 mi
by krylite
The council talks of these overly optomistic members almost had me feeling Episode I was a more "honest" heartfelt movie by Lucas. Then I remembered the fart jokes, the ridculously looking Tatooine aliens which belonged in an Ewok adventure movie and the duckbill snotty Gungans. Who said Lucas knows a good movie from a bad one is absolutely right. Lucas didn't have the energy nor kept his skills honed to really make Ep I and II good films. Biggest clue. The early video "diaries" on the making of TPM back in 1998-99. Showed that lady narrating how Lucas was struggling to come up with a story just that year right after he wasted our time with the SEs. Thought he boasted he had a story for 20 years. Turned he couldn't rip off LOTR anymore since the movies were coming out. So he had to scramble and make one up fixed to his idea of marketable movie demographics. The kids suckered by Gungans and Ewoks, the stupid pod race and alines, then throw in another martial art style - instead of kendo, now its flashy pole fighting Shaw brothers style. Just a year to come up with something before LOTR blew his chance to capitilize on a new trilogy. Thankfully the quality of FOTR and TTT bit away into Episode II's profits because fans won't go back for repeat viewings after having seen the excellence of Jackson's LOTR films.
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Nov 18, 2004 10:52:49 AM CST
What do you mean new trilogy acting is better. Sir Alec Guinness
by krylite
With the cleaned up SW OT(at least the scenes which are still intact after SE and extra changes), the great model efx still rules. Ex. opening scene of SDestroyer, and AT-AT walkers. LOTR used 50% models as well as much as they could. Models still beat CGI for spaceships , buildings and structures etc.
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...what ever happened to craftsmenship? EVERY single thing other than the human wooden actors being CGI just seems like outright laziness. LOTR only used CGI when it REALLY needed it (and these moes who think that LOTR isn't better than the PT are just eternally shot). NONE of the clones or aliens killed by lightsabers in the PT look realistic. It's like Lucas said- "just run around and swing those lightsabers. We'll just animate clones in whatever path your swings take" which is just fucking lazy and the result is piss poor. CRAFTSMENSHIP is missing. Costumes, miniatures, bigatures, actual fucking sets... There's no magic in complete soulless cgi. No spark. No life. Hell there's not even any spark in the human element in this PT. I think Jar Jar was more credible than the actors. All these fine craftsmen who helped put Lucas on the map are now replaced by breezy geeks leisurely right/left clicking on their mouses. Why even use them George? Why not just bring in a a whole robot cast to make these soulless pictures. Maybe George himself is a droid- or a clone- While the real George is on his own privately owned island drinking icy tropical drinks and getting blowjobs from the best native women. What a joke.
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honestly cocolopez, i already said i was in the age bracket i discussed earlier when PM came out, and as a result of me being in said age bracket i enjoyed the film and i enjoyed it because i couldn't care less about jake lloyd, i couldnt care less about the gungans etc, i liked it because it was as cool of a scifi fantasy flick id ever seen. in response to ur statement regarding the prequels coming before the OT and how it is technically made for the generations who saw the OT as impressionable youths you once again have displayed how far up ur own ass your head is. the films had to adjust to todays audience. alot of people have grown up since being 8-12 in 1977 wouldnt u say and ultimatly id think more kids liked the film than adults, because they (as i said in one of my other posts) dont care about plot points etc.
btw coco could u try and wrap up ur response in 1 reply this time, thus not flooding the forum with ur inane comments about saving private ryan or some such frivolous remark thats similarly usless claim.
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