Review

GOING UPRIVER: THE LONG WAR OF JOHN KERRY review

Published at: Sept. 26, 2004, 4:29 a.m. CST by headgeek

It is a fascinating time for the documentary. I’ve never seen such a time in film history / political history where feature length film documentaries centered around the two political figures that the nation would have to decide between in November were being made. Recently – I’ve been being deluged with them regarding this upcoming election. Most of the documentaries are fairly aggressive anti-Bush films. Films centering on alleged scandals and misconduct. I’ve got what seems like a whole shelf of this stuff. They’re filled with hints of conspiracy, unanswered questions and a whole lot of depressing views about what has been going on in recent history here in the last 4-10 years in the United States.

When I received the tape of GOING UPRIVER: THE LONG WAR OF JOHN KERRY, I wasn’t really certain what to make of it. I assumed it would begin with his early life, take me through his Vietnam experiences, the protest movement against that war and finally his political life as a Senator. I figured, this would be a campaign film.

Instead, what director GEORGE BUTLER has made is a fascinating documentary about a transformation in a man caught by the Kennedy dream of “ask what you can do for your country,” signed up to fight the communists in Vietnam, began to see the truth of that war and felt that his duty to his country and fellow soldiers was to try and help end the war. Basically – that’s what this documentary is about.

Now George Butler is responsible for two truly great documentaries in my point of view prior to this film. The first being the amazingly frank look at the world of Bodybuilding with PUMPING IRON. Then in 2000, he made a fantastic documentary called ENDURANCE: SHACKELTON’S LEGENDARY ANTARCTIC EXPEDITION – which may end up being adapted into a narrative gigantic budgeted feature film from Hollywood at some point, if what I hear is so. Neither of these films are particularly politically sensitive, though Arnie’s ascendance to the office of Governor of California, makes his PUMPING IRON film slightly politically sensitive, especially given the candor in which he caught Arnold’s less… shall we say, humble elements. The main thing is, George Butler isn’t just some hack documentarian for hire.

At no point in the film does it mention Kerry’s candidacy for President of the United States, however – what is unsaid in so many words is demonstrated by the power of the narrative of this documentary is John Kerry’s leadership ability, at least so far as it was demonstrated in this period of his life.

Now, we all know the power of film to craft a convincing argument for or against someone, this film is definitely pro-Kerry… but I hold it would be pretty hard for a sensible person to really be negative about this era in John Kerry’s life.

The Vietnam part of the documentary is frankly pretty brutal. It lays out what the mission of the Swift Boats in Vietnam were. There’s testimony by those that recommended Kerry for medals at the time he earned them. Men, who claim he saved their lives, including one while Kerry was in fact wounded. Whether or not these events happened exactly as these men claimed they happened is surely up for debate these days, every bit as much as the idea that the sky is falling these days… but it sure seems that people that would probably know best what John Kerry did on his swift boat in Vietnam… well, I’d like to think it would be the men that were actually on his swift boat… or the man he pulled out of the river while he himself was wounded. But frankly – this isn’t the stuff that impressed me in the documentary.

Instead, what I found absolutely captivating was what John Kerry did when he came back to the United States. The footage of John’s testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee is incredibly powerful. I’ve seen blurry photos of John testifying used in Anti-Kerry ads, but muted of course. As if to lump him in with the foul mouth protests of them there hippies. Instead, his testimony is one of the most eloquent and dignified statements I’ve seen from a Senate testimony. Throughout his time shown at this period of his life, he is shown to be the moderate steady hand that lead the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). He wasn’t speaking out against the soldiers, but in fact FOR THE SOLDIERS. To put an end to the war. His statement about Nixon not wanting to be the first U.S. President to lose a war, in comparison to having to ask how one can ask a soldier to be the last man to die for a mistake… well, that’s powerful.

Seeing the Republican Senator praising his statements and offering to help put an end to this war showed his ability to reach across partisan lines and to eloquently and intelligently make a bridge between what was seen as a ‘counter-culture’ movement and the very foundations of leadership in this country. Kerry remained clean shaven and well kept through this period as to not alienate those whom he felt needed to hear the message of those trying to end a terrible period of American history. In fact his statement before that Senate Foreign Relations Committee was so good, that when Nixon asked Haldeman about it, Haldeman said that Kerry reminded him of a Kennedy, that he looked like and spoke like a Kennedy… and frankly, I would agree. I never thought I would ever agree with a Haldeman assessment, but there it is.

The parts of this documentary where fellow Vietnam Vet protesters discuss how angry they were and how calming Kerry was, how he felt it was incredibly important to remain peaceful in their protests, even if provoked, as to not discredit the messages they were trying to give to the nation and its leaders. It was quite comforting to see a leader of restraint.

So – How did this documentary make me feel about John Kerry? Well, it made me anxious to see the upcoming debates between him and President Bush for one. On David Brinkley’s show when he was asked to face his opposition, well… personally he skinned them alive, with nothing more than poise and a more intelligent response.

To see a man that not only knows the meaning and cost of those serving this country, but to also understand what it means to protest a war that continues to put those you served with in danger. That he didn’t just go back to the states and leave everything he experienced behind, but that he held on to it, and used it to try to put an end to the danger his fellow soldiers were continuing to endure, by lobbying and exercising his rights to speak and protest. Well, that’s a leader that deserves serious consideration.

The film opens on October 1st, but there will also be free downloads and free dvds being distributed of this film. It’s worth a look. Here’s the Trailer for the Film! And to find out about where the film is being released and how you can see it, check out the official site at GoingUpRiver.Com!



Readers Talkback

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  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:38 a.m. CST

    First!.....and vote Kerry!

    by IndustryKiller

    It's plain and simple the right thing to do.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:41 a.m. CST

    Amazing how through lies and out of context statements the Repub

    by IndustryKiller

    It's an insult to every guy who fought over tehre. I find it funny that the testimony in particular have become such a debate considering every atrocity Kerry said was happening was in fact happening. But I guess those kind of things should just be kept silent if America is on the giving end of them......

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:50 a.m. CST

    If previous election-type talkbacks are anything to go by this i

    by gigaloff

    I don't think this movie will interest anyone after the election. But like most Norwegians I just hope you kick Bush out of the white house. You could replace him with a dead donkey for all we care, but when Vladimir Putin, not mr. Clean by anyone's standards, is looking like a more trustworthy ally than the American president, you know the US, and the rest of the world for that matter, is in big trouble.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 5:20 a.m. CST

    Yeah Sir Loyne those swift boat veterans for truth sure can be t

    by IndustryKiller

    If you believe that then there's a bridge in Brooklyn I know I could get on the cheap for you.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 5:32 a.m. CST

    Please, Do Not Politicize Ain't It Cool News...

    by Pan_Krator

    ...I visit this site because I share Harry's love of movies, not his politics. Art should be able to transcend ideology. <p> A movie about John Kerry? Sure, why not? I've already seen Ronald Reagan in movies, and Bill Clinton guest-appearing in CONTACT. But those were <i>movie roles.</i> Recently, the genre "documentary" has become more and more politicized. I find it very hard these days not to see the bias in documentaries, the various agendas being pushed. <p> But isn't this just more of the same muddling of reality and entertainment? Moviestars becoming politicians. Politicians becoming moviestars. <p> A future candidate might run for President, and THEN begin a movie career. <p> Isn't this trend more interesting than the individual politician? It deserves a study. <p> <a href="http://yngve.bravehost.com"></a>

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 5:33 a.m. CST

    See gigaloff's post for a good reason to vote against Bush

    by IndustryKiller

    And don't give me any shit like "Oh Yeah let's do whatever Europe tells us to. They hate us anyway!!!" The guy is from fucking Norway, not France or Germany or any of the other states conservatives would have us belive are weak and cowardly. Something tells me Norway doesn't have much a political agenda here, no missles aimed our way. He's just hte prevailing view the rest of the world has about us and that only 50% of us on the inside can see. I personally don't want four more years of having to explain to every single foreign person I meet that just because I'm an American I don't necessarily agree with Bush and that that goes for the majority of Americans.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 5:55 a.m. CST

    Shackleton 'may' be adapted into a feature?...

    by Brundlefly

    Harry it IS a fucking feature - made by Channel 4 in the UK starring Kenneth Branagh as Shackleton - it's been out for two years - it was fucking great too.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 6:52 a.m. CST

    Attention americans

    by Trialofthejaguar

    The future of the world is in your hands- VOTE KERRY! That is all

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 7:20 a.m. CST

    This will probably neither help nor hurt Kerry

    by Toby O Notoby

    Having not seen the film it's hard to comment, but waaay too much of this election has been about what both candidates did or did not do during Veitnam. In fact, that's most of Kerry's platform: "Hey, I was in 'Nam, man!". As I am one of those rare beasts that is actually a swing voter I would absolutely love to vote for the man but can't make heads or tails of his platform at this point, so it might come down to better the devil you know. I mean we're in a war *now*, his stance on that should be much more important than what did or didn't happen 30 year ago. (As an aside, I think a much more interesting point is what happened to Dan Rather and Memogate. In a few years it will be the point where everyone realises that the power structure of news gathering changed IMHO.)

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 8:32 a.m. CST

    Europe is not ordering Americans what to do.

    by RowanM

    I just think we have the advantage of having the outside view looking in. In Ireland we have a long relationship with Americans, particularly the East coast (New York, Boston etc) since half our country immigrated there during the Famine. We have nothing but admiration for Clinton and Reagan and Kennedy. We just feel that Bush is bad news. This is not some kind of hidden agenda that your average European Joe has. Sure, a lot of Americans think we still live in cottages and go to work on donkeys, just like we think that most Americans are dumb loudmouths. I said this before and I'll say it again, never before in my experience has there been so much intent interest amongst not just Europeans, but the rest of the world in how the U.S. elections are going to pan out. To me personally, Bush regaining office for another four years is inconcievable. A horrible thought. Europeans can talk and shout and wave hands in a dramatic fashion in order to make you all vote Kerry. The thing is. It's not about voting Kerry in, it's about voting Bush out. You Americans have that power, please do the right thing.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 9:09 a.m. CST

    When Kerry got home from the war.....

    by vekt0r

    Does anyone even care if the words he spoke were used against our POW in Vietnam? Does anyone care that he met with delegates from the North in Paris, or that his Winter Soldier investigation was found to be a total fraud? Why hasnt this guy run for Prez using his 20 year record as a Senator? Isnt that more important that his 4 month in Vietnam? He doesnt seem to think so because his entire campaign is 'Not Bush', and 'I served in Vietnam.'

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 9:33 a.m. CST

    On the one hand, another stupid political post ...

    by chrth

    On the other, no mention of Harry's nipples. The problem with a documentary like this is that it's going to be preaching to the choir--it will not garner any votes (although I do not believe that this is its intended function, unlike Fahrenheit 9/11). The moderate majority of Americans do not view either candidate's military service (or lack thereof) as relevant to this election. We're not interested in what the candidates did 30 years ago ... we care what they're going to do now. We're more interested in what Kerry has done as Senator and what Bush has done as President, and what they stand for. It's only the fringe elements on each side (including both the MSM and the blogosphere) that keep bringing this crap up. They are the minority, and while they continually piss and whine at each other, myself and my moderate brethren will be quietly deciding the fate of the nation, just as we've done in every election of the past century.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 9:54 a.m. CST

    BEING A COMBAT VETERAN DOESN'T COUNT IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT

    by bushsux

    It is such an embarassment to the republicans that the democratic candidate in this election is a war veteran and theirs is a draft dodger. The republicans are supposed to be the "tough guys" right? George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Newt Gingrich, Pat Buchanan... where were these guys during Vietnam. And the funny thing is, republicans are so focused on rationalizing their wrong positions that they've tried to make it look as if Bush was the combat veteran and what Kerry did never happened. Why? Because Kerry spoke out against the war when he come back. Excuse me, the guy is an American citizen, he has the right to do so.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10 a.m. CST

    Tough, Europe.

    by FluffyUnbound

    Clone Thatcher, speed-grow the clone to 45 years old, and we'll let her be in charge. Heck, we'd even consider that son of hers that hires mercenaries to topple small African countries as a substitute. Until you can do that, shut the hell up. // Actually, it is interesting to me how much the current situation parallels that in Italy just before the Social Wars during the Roman Republic. You've got an imperial power, whose domestic elections affect vast numbers of people outside of the state - and those people just can't stop themselves from bitching about those elections. Hopefully this will turn out the same way - first we'll stomp you to teach you a lesson, then declare you states. I'd take that outcome.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:04 a.m. CST

    LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED THE LAST TIME WE KICKED A BUSH OUT

    by bushsux

    Remember what happened the last time we kicked a Bush out of the White House? An economic recovery, 8 years of an economic boom period, crime reduction, large deficit reduction and gays were finally allowed to serve in the military (sort of, republicans wouldn't let Clinton completely lift the ban). Nobody voted for Clinton in 1992, they voted against Bush and his recession. There's nothing wrong for voting against someone if that person has screwed up royally. The only reason the Bush II is running neck and neck in the polls is because of post 9/11 and the fact that he's managed to divide our country over silly non-issues like Abortion and Gay Marriage. What will happen if Kerry gets elected? Let's see, an economic recovery, the end to the War in Iraq, stem cell research will help us find a cure for alzheimer's and paralysis and semi-automatic weapons will become - gasp - illegal again. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Arab terrorists probably love John Kerry too!

    by its all real!

    John Kerry is a joke. Do not vote for that liar.. really. TheSenators who gave bush the bad info about the WMD in Iraq should be called liars, not President Bush... Wait - John Kerry was one of those Senators.. He did say there were WMD, wow - history is interesting. Clinton also said there were WMD - in 1996, 1998 and 2001 - publicly and on record, But Kerry is probably right, if we bring the terrorists to the table and talk with them, all will be worked out. If you really believe that crap, you have a real problem. Remeber there were attacks in New Your during Clintons presidency - or did you forget that, what about Our Navy ship the USS Cole (where 2 of the dead sailors were shipmates of mine from school) did you forget that - Bush did not start this - but He will finish it - John Kerry will not do anything at all to stop this brutal attack by people who hate us. These terrorists HATE US ALL - even you! They shoot children in the back - on purpose! I know YOU think that we are the oppressors - well then MOVE THE F*CK to Iran - bitch! And yes I too am a decorated war Veteran - so Whoope-freekin-do for Kerry!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:16 a.m. CST

    Good bye Harry

    by its all real!

    Last time on your site - Sorry I thought it was about movies - now I find myself livid from these negative attacks on a U.S President,. I have no room in my life for a MOVIE WEBSITE that does this - so fuck you - let your advertisers know that I will NEVER LOG ON HERE AGAIN _-EVER!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:17 a.m. CST

    To Rowan

    by Toby O Notoby

    Hey man, my wife is Irish and she can't stand Bush either. I think the problem that Americans have is that it is very hard to convince people to vote for you when your entire platform is "I'm not the other guy". When we actually sit down and talk about it she doesn't really see why I would vote for Kerry either but thinks I should. In short, I feel you pain. (Ps. You guys didn't have a problem with Reagan? I grew up in Europe during the '80s and from what I remember there was nothing but problems with Reagan. And Thatcher, but that's another story.)

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:21 a.m. CST

    I'm sickened

    by its all real!

    Crap Harry I've followed this site from the beginning, when you lived in your dad's crappy basement - It has always benn my favorite site. Im literally sickened. Did you forget where you came from? - logging offline now - goodbye Harry.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:43 a.m. CST

    We need a UNITER ... not a DIVIDER ... so let's all join HARRY .

    by JDanielP

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Kerry gave this documentary 4 stars, then he gave it 2.

    by SexyBeast

    Now he denies he ever saw it.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:58 a.m. CST

    It's all real

    by Garbageman33

    Does anyone else find it amusing that he vowed NEVER TO VISIT THIS SITE AGAIN and then proceeded to log on two more times to reiterate his stance?

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Visit WWW.SWIFTVETS.COM for the Truth.

    by OgieOglethorpe

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:32 a.m. CST

    Is it effective? An anecdote from someone who's seen it

    by artsnob

    I saw this movie in the closing days of the recent Toronto Film Festival. As the crowd began filing out after the credits, I heard a woman behind me say to her viewing companion,

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:32 a.m. CST

    Just Vote

    by Kentucky Colonel

    Hey you, Fanboy, listen up. Get off your ass and vote. Like Bush? Fine. Vote for him. Like Kerry? Great! Vote for him! If you don't vote then shut your little fucking fudgehole. VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE! Not sure who to vote for? Watch the debates. Read the paper (or the Washington Post online). Inform yourself. Or don't. Just VOTE for goodness sakes! And to all you pooy-heads that are pissing & moaning we are talking elections on a movie site, all I have to say is...GET THE FUCK OVER IT! Click to find out what Gollum thinks of AICN or something else, dumbass. By the way, what DOES Gollum think of AICN? Sounds like he's chewing a turd to me...

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 12:09 p.m. CST

    THIS JUST IN!!!

    by Kentucky Colonel

    (Miami-Dade Co.)- John Kerry is responsible for four hurricanes that have struck the Florida coast. This finding was backed by the SwiftBoatVets, the Justice Department and the director of Fatherland Security. Or maybe these hurricanes are God's way of telling Florida not to fuck up again. ARE YOU LISTENING CATHERINE HARRIS???

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 12:10 p.m. CST

    Industrykiller, PlayD'oh

    by Aetius450

    As to the Swiftvets: They clearly got some things right. Kerry's campaign now admits that he wasn't in Cambodia in Christmas of 68 (they claim it was later, though he said the incident was 'seared into his mind'), his campaign admits that his first Purple Heart may have resulted from a self-inflicted wound, they also now admit that with regards to the Bronze Star incident that the other boats did not flee the scene leaving Kerry to return alone to save Rassmann. As to the economy; it is in fact, not shitty as judged by most standards. It is true that it is lagging in job creation and that should not be forgotten, but it is not shitty. Also, it is clear that the economic slowdown began during Clinton's last quarter or two in office. Of course it wasn't Clinton's fault. No President can do away with the cyclical turns in the economy, nor could he have prevented the Tech bubble bursting. Finally, Bush's backing of an Amendment to ban gay marriage was not 'rampant homophobia' as you say. It was actually an attempt to stop judges with a king-complex from imposing gay marriage/civil unions on the entire nation against the will of most Americans. It is a sign of the extremism of the Left in this case that they are not content to win the battles for civil unions (which is of course gay marriage w/o the word 'marriage') in the few states where they could do so legislatively, but that they instead resort to the Courts to impose what they can't win in a fair democratic fight.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 12:27 p.m. CST

    Kerry has no soul.

    by Veraxus

    Generally whenever I see something political related on your site I ignore it. Why the fuck did I click on this article?

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 12:44 p.m. CST

    it's all real...

    by baghutch

    I hope since he came back 3 times after saying he'd stay away forever that he might turn up to at least read these, because it should be noted that for Harry to remember his roots where he was working out of his parents' basement...well, who's more likely to be concerned about the poor fat slob (said with affection Harry...you're a big man) living in his parents' basement? I'll give you a hint...Not the Republicans unless you happen to be the poor fat slob of parents who make over 200,000 dollars a year. I can't say a thing about the movie because I haven't seen it yet. I can say that if the major media in the US covered the forged documents that created the evidence that was used to go into Iraq to search for the WMDs was covered with the same veracity as the potentially forged documents that CBS used to show the Bush may have been disliked and found to be lazy by one of his commanding officers, we'd be addressing THE real war related issue of the campaign instead of the Paris Hilton Sex Tape version of one. Please take the time to find the retractions, adjustments, and Dept. of Defense records used to show the arguements presented by the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush (sic) have been proven largely without merit, just not covered on Page 1's, or with much fanfare, after the truth about the truth came out.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 1:03 p.m. CST

    Bush will reinstate the DRAFT in 2005

    by Dannychico

    And considering most people reading this site are males 18-24, you better think about your vote for a second. We need approximately 8 times the troups we have in Iraq right now to get the job done effectively. And since Bush has never once admitted to a mistake, you better believe he's going to do all in his power to get those numbers. With no political repercussions as a second-term president, the DRAFT WILL HAPPEN.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 1:08 p.m. CST

    Someone please explain how those Swift Boat Vets have any credib

    by Voice O. Reason

    Very few of them have even ever met Kerry, while the guys on his actual crew vouch for him.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 1:09 p.m. CST

    You gave us a reason not to vote for Kerry, baghutch

    by chrth

    Vote for Kerry, he'll have the government pay for Harry?

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 1:43 p.m. CST

    Draft will never happen.

    by Veraxus

    Dannychico, no sane government would enstate a draft in this day and age. The results would be catastrophic on both the domestic and foreign levels. Just aint gonna happen, buddy.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Bush Is The Only Candidate Endorsed by Terrorists

    by Ye Not Guilty

    Vote for Kerry! It's the easy choice. Bush has been endorsed by Osama bin Laden. Bush has released hundreds of terrorists to attack America again. Bush is dangerous to our safety. Vote for Kerry unless you want to die in the next terrorist attack!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 2:51 p.m. CST

    dannychico is fearmongering

    by Krigan

    There will absolutely not be a draft for Iraq. Your statemants serve nothing more than to try and scare people into voting for kerry. If there is a draft again it will be for a much larger conflict. Perhaps us fighting N korea and China might do it. Go ahead Keep up the propaganda bush still wins in November by a nice margin.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 3:01 p.m. CST

    Harry's Mute Button.......

    by Silver Shamrock

    Let's see, Harry wants everyone to go and and see F9/11, and buy the DVD. But when it comes to the 30 second Swiftboat ads, much of which is Kerry IN HIS OWN WORDS, Harry has to mute them. I thought liberals were open-minded and listened to all sides of an argument? "I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire, joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages."-John F. Kerry. Could you imagine the uproar if someone had BUSH on tape confessing about how he burned down villages and shot innocent people? Would Harry hit "mute" then? Thankfully, I don't have a thing to worry about Nov. 2nd. Funnier than any Bushism, and God knows those can be a riot, was Kerry's tactic to campaign as BOTH a war hero AND an anti-war hero at the same time! The result was confusion and eventually apathy from the public. All the left has these days are draft scare tactics and specious reasoning like: Kerry should be president of the United States because he was in Vietnam.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 3:07 p.m. CST

    I'll vote for Kerry but he will be a bad president

    by NFLRefugee

    He just won't be as bad as Bush. Some choice, huh? Why do I think he will be bad? Because he is going to be in the same situation as Nixon; cleaning up an unjust war. The thing is Kerry is going to shoot himself in the foot. He wants to get the troops out as soon as possible (don't we all) and put in an international coalition. What a joke! No country is going to commit to bailing us out of Iraq. So basically the troops wil be stuck there as sitting ducks and nothing we can do about it. If we cut and run, then everyone loses. That was the problem Nixon had with Vietnam. He vowed to end the war (which he technically did) but it took much longer than expected and ultimately the peace didn't last. The USA (and our allies in Iraq) is obligated to see this through whether we believe in the war or not.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 3:15 p.m. CST

    Read this article by me. Time for change.

    by Judge Briggs

    As many people were, I was completely disgusted by the beheadings of 2 American workers in Iraq. With those beheadings came Bush

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 3:42 p.m. CST

    Voice O. Reason - get a clue

    by Alex Rogan

    The swiftvets includes Kerry's ENTIRE living chain of command, and MANY vets who served alongside him, both in his boat and the other boats in that unit that operated only a few feet away. They have documented their claims and gone ON RECORD UNDER OATH. Kerry has only ONE guy from that crew picture who supports him, and he REFUSES to sign a F180 that would release all his military records and prove who is right.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 3:44 p.m. CST

    AICN - the new Kerry 527

    by Alex Rogan

    Still waiting for that review of Stolen Honor, Micheal Moore Hates America, and the rest of them. Whats the matter Harry, too chicken to watch them?

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 3:51 p.m. CST

    Democrats are the ones pushing bills in Congress for a DRAFT

    by cornstalkwalker

    Charles Rangel (D-NY) has proposed the Bill Number: H.R. 163 Official Title as Introduced: 'To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.' This bill also has 16 democrat cosponsors. http://congress.org/congressorg/bill.xc?billnum=H.R.163&congress=108 say what you want, but the fact is the democrats are pushing for a draft.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4 p.m. CST

    Can we ban SHIVA? Seroiusly, make your point in one post.

    by I Own You

    SHIVA only makes other Republicans look like fanatical raving idiots with multiple b****hit posts like that. If the U.S. loses Bush as president, it'll likely be because of people like SHIVA.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:13 p.m. CST

    A vote for Bush

    by Dr Bad

    is treason. He has created an entirely new field in which terrorists can play, draining us of resources with which to fight the real war. How can anyone believe anything he says anymore??!!! I am done now until Nov.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:13 p.m. CST

    Oh yea I forgot this one

    by cornstalkwalker

    Ernest Hollings (D-SC) proposed Bill Number: S. 89 Official Title as Introduced: 'A bill to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.' http://congress.org/congressorg/bill.xc?billnum=S.89&congress=108 The bottom line is, its important to VOTE. It doesn't matter who you vote for. As long as no one votes, laws will get passed that only favor special interest.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:27 p.m. CST

    Why would anyone vote for Kerry. Bush is the greatest president

    by TheGinger Twit

    Michael Moore said it best on behalf of Bush about John Kerry pulling a wounded man out of the water "Men don't live in water, Fish do!" Personally, I think the man looks like Frank Munster. George Bush looks merely looks like a chimpanze. A chimpanze is real, Frank Munster isn't. You do the Math. George Bush for 2004! yahhhh!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:28 p.m. CST

    Get a Clue: Someone LIED to you, Alex Rogan

    by Voice O. Reason

    Kerry's REAL crew appeared with him at the Democratic Convention, standing side by side with him as he took the stage to make his acceptance speech. THOSE MEN I TRUST. I do not trust the so-called "Swift Boat Vets for Truth," who are basing their accusations on hearsay and rumor, and most of them have never even met Kerry. Its your perogative not to vote for him, but quit letting right-wing conspiracy theories and propaganda guide your judgement.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:36 p.m. CST

    Fox News: U.S. Navy says Kerry's medals were approved properly.

    by Voice O. Reason

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132791,00.html

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 4:41 p.m. CST

    John Kerry is a REAL patriot and a REAL hero.

    by Voice O. Reason

    He has the courage to point out that we can make mistakes and want to help fix them. He risked his life numerous times for this country, and wanted to save the lives of American soldiers by putting public pressure on the Nixon Administration to get us out of Vietnam. When the history of this election is written by future historians, it'll show that the American people were mislead into supporting George W. Bush.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 5:05 p.m. CST

    Kerry, Bush... How come no one will vote for Ralph Nader?

    by TheGinger Twit

    From the mans own mouth, it doesn't matter is the left or the right gets in. they're both wings of the same bird and they both take orders from the coorporate government in washington - and that coorporate government NEVER changes. He then goes on to say that with him as president he'll be truely independant, giving america back to americans. Congress will be represented by teachers, road builders, artists, NOT LAWYERS & BILLIONAIRES. Why does this guy not get a look in? I see also that Florida has baned him from their ballot box. I'd have thought Jeb would love for Nadar to take the votes AWAY from Kerry. Unless he truely is a threat. In which case, these Bush scoundrels really ourt to learn how to play nice and fair. But they want their war, and they want it bad. And they want it BIG. Can anyone here seriously tell me, with a straight face that bush actually gave a shit how Saddam treated his people? Hind sight is a wonderous thing, and with a government so hell bent on bombing countries and civilizations, is it really so hard to ponder the destruction of two buildings owned by the military complex? With a government that stole the last election, and has taken great leangths to install "electronic" voting machines - thats REPUBLICAN ISSUE Electronic voting machines - you can bet your sweet butt that they'll get in again, there will be another mind blowing terrorist attack and more countries will go... and the Draft will be back! And the final fact to all the people who believe the spin - Bush's multi billion dollar homeland security programe was worthless!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 6:14 p.m. CST

    movie site?

    by The Ghost of Marcus Brody

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 6:57 p.m. CST

    if you hate every living thing on this planet, feel free to vote

    by Tall_Boy

    thats just what you vote will be doing. Don't change horsemen in the middle of an Apocalypse.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 7:39 p.m. CST

    Voting Kerry is voting to be SMART on the war on terrorISM

    by Saluki

    It is no longer about being tough or soft on terrorISM, it's about being dumb or smart. Terrorism BREEDS, and it is about time we got a leader that understands this.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 7:40 p.m. CST

    It's All Real is certainly a big, fat sucker ...

    by Lou C.

    ... you've bought into the Bush machine hook, line and sinker. If someone important says "Saddam" and "terrorists" often enough, I guess everyone will believe he's behind every terrorist act around the world. Saddam was a vicious terrorist of his OWN PEOPLE and immediately surrounding countries. He had NOTHING to do with the USS Cole, 9/11 or anything else like it. He was an EVIL DICTATOR. Good god. As for Aetius, you seem like an intelligent guy, so i'm surprised you could be so naive about Bush's reasonings for the gay marriage ban. It has to do with one simple thing: He doesn't care for homosexuality because it goes against his religious beliefs. There's nothing deeper there. And when you invoke your religion into making law, well, I don't need to tell you where that leads ...

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 7:46 p.m. CST

    chrth

    by Lou C.

    so are you honestly saying that was a man has done in his past has nothing to do with how he handles the present and future? while i'm willing to forgive a politician for past mistakes if they've proven to be a better person today, i don't think you can discount the good things someone has done in their past. If Kerry was indeed a good soldier, honorable man and one who fought for his fellow soldiers, doesn't this give us an insight into who he is today? Maybe no politician is really worth a damn, but knowing that they have a very real past where they have done something heroic at least gives me hope there are a few good ones left. And what was Bush doing while Kerry was being a hero? Probably snorting coke of the tits of a skanky hooker in a Motel 6. To each his own, I guess

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 7:52 p.m. CST

    I know where my vote is going...

    by J-Dizzle

    ...to anybody who can turn AICN around and back to the movie spoiler site we all loved. Enough of this politics crap. I get enough of it off the damn news and media, I don't need it on this site too. The media by the way just loves the fact that you guys, whether you are Rep or Dem, give in to their nonsensical propaganda bullcrap. Bastards!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 8:02 p.m. CST

    bushsux

    by Aetius450

    Of course the economy began its recovery before the 1992 election even took place, just as it has already been in recovery for some time now. But if you really think that Clinton somehow created the 90s boom, then I guess that while you hope Bush loses, you nonetheless hope that the GOP retains control of the Congress. After all it was that combination -- Dem president + GOP Senate and House -- that existed for six of Clinton's 8 yrs; guiding fiscal policy. As to the reason why the polls are currently close (and some actually show Bush with a significant lead, but they are all meaningless right now), you keep telling yourself that its due to the reasons you cite. Actually, Kerry is lucky to be close and he wouldn't be if Bush hadn't made so many mistakes in his first term. As to Bush dividing our country over issues like Abortion and Gay Marriage; that is a really convenient mindset to have -- get the judiciary do for the Left what they can't do legislatively on each of these issues, then when the Right/Mainstream objects to this then they are the ones who are being divisive. In other words, its alright for the Left to go around the voters to impose their agenda -- that's no divisive -- but for the Right to object is somehow contrary to civic values. Of course the truth of the matter is that gay marriage wouldn't be an issue if the Left were content to go for it in the few states that would voluntarily accept it. But they insist on forcing it on the majority of states whose people reject it. The Left made it an issue, not Bush. As to what will happen if Kerry is elected: As I said, we are already in an economic recovery. Now, it is true that whoever is President will most likely benefit from a strong and growing economy over the next 4 yrs. That is due more to the natural business cycle than some magical ability of the President to wave a wand and create prosperity. Bush or Kerry; the best bet is that the economy will be strong for either. Also, stem cell research is of course legal now, the only question is of who will fund the research. I know some argue that only the Fed Govt has the money, but then again Calif is about to aprove a ballot measure to spend state funds to do it. And of course there are literally billions of dollars in endowments in our universities; so they could take a bigger role as well.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 8:18 p.m. CST

    I wasn't gonna vote one way or another....

    by metsrulein2k

    but Michael Moore got me to vote for Bush, if for no other reason, than the fact that 95% of everything moore says is complete bullshit therefor the only way to counter it is to do the opposite of what he says. Therefor....Bush for 4 MOORE years!!!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 8:28 p.m. CST

    Left Leaning Twat

    by Clockwork Taxi

    Pack it up liberals...you've already lost this election. So go save a rain forest or some shit.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 8:32 p.m. CST

    GOING TO TIJUANA: THE LONG COKE LINE OF GEORGE W. BUSH

    by TedSallis

    I hope someone make s a movie about the Little Prince's war years!!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 8:33 p.m. CST

    GOING TO TIJUANA: THE LONG COKE LINE OF GEORGE W. BUSH

    by TedSallis

    I hope someone make s a movie about the Little Prince's war years!!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 9:11 p.m. CST

    Silver Shamrock...

    by Lobanhaki

    Your problem is you've only seen the very selectively edited text of the SwiftVet's commercial, which omits parts of Kerry's speech where he clearly indicates that these are not charges he's making against people himself, but actions that other soldiers have confessed to him during the course of his Winter Soldiers investigation. He didn't sell anybody out, he told their stories at a time when the culture of the army pressured them not to open up about the atrocities and errors of the war.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:16 p.m. CST

    Politics on AICN

    by I.M. Fletcher

    Has there been a liberal or anti - Bush film that this site hasn't touted as some kind of masterpiece? F / 9-11 , OUTFOXED, BUSH

  • ... then you are a Republican! If you love corporate scandals, a huge deficit, bad economy, corruption, neglecting the environment, taking away civil rights... ... then you are a Republican! If you want more war, more terror attacks, more enemies, more lies and more mistakes... ... the you are a REPUBLICAN!!! [If you love TRUE LIES... then you like Arnold Schwartzenegger (I do!)]

  • ... then you are a Republican! If you love corporate scandals, a huge deficit, bad economy, corruption, neglecting the environment, taking away civil rights... ... then you are a Republican! If you want more war, more terror attacks, more enemies, more lies and more mistakes... ... the you are a REPUBLICAN!!! [If you love TRUE LIES... then you like Arnold Schwartzenegger (I do!)]

  • ... then you are a Republican! If you love corporate scandals, a huge deficit, bad economy, corruption, neglecting the environment, taking away civil rights... ... then you are a Republican! If you want more war, more terror attacks, more enemies, more lies and more mistakes... ... the you are a REPUBLICAN!!! [If you love TRUE LIES... then you like Arnold Schwartzenegger (I do!)]

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 10:57 p.m. CST

    Who gives a fuck about these documentaries? People only have so

    by Triumph poops!

    You know, I laugh every time I hear Libs shooting off about how the "educated" Kerry is going to clean Bush's clock in the debates. Funny, they were bragging about the same thing when Gore debated him 4 years ago. And do you remember what happened? Gore showed up and came off like a robot trying to ram home pointless facts (many of which were democratically spin doctored anyway) and in the end, most people walked away with one conclusion -- namely, that while Gore seemed bright enough, he was a cold fish as a person who didn't seem to give a damn about people (which we can now add "raving psychotic loser" to his resume given his speeches the last year or so where Gore has CLEARLY become emotionally unhinged). Well, you can bet history is about to repeat itself. Herman Munster Kerry is going to show up for the debates and start spouting off his spin doctoring tidbits, but in the end Bush will simply win by being more human. Because let's face it, Lurch Kerry exudes all the warmth and charm of a giant lint ball you find under your couch when vaccuuming. Not to mention, whether you hate Bush or not, least he sticks by a stand -- unlike Mr. Flopping Fish out of water who can't take a stand on an issue that lasts longer than a full 60 seconds. Worse for Kerry, once the debates are on national TV he's going to HAVE to defend the ONE thing he's tried to bury throughout his utter crock of "I am a war hero" campaign (more like I am a liar charade) which is his actual ULTRA-LIBERAL Senate voting record. A record which clearly shows that when Kerry isn't going down on Teresa so she'll take pity on him and write him another check, he has Ted Kennedy's hand up his ass controlling him like a puppet. Once Kerry's voting record comes out...game over. No way middle America wants to support such utter ultra Liberal bullshit. Kerry's politics went out WITH the Vietnam war.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:36 p.m. CST

    For what it is worth...

    by missinglink

    All of you out there (including Harry) need to wake up and see Kerry for what he truly is. This man is a blue blooded elitist from the New England area that is as appealing an individual as Teddy Kennedy. The only reason he went to war was he knew he needed it on his resume for public office. If you think Bush pulled strings, how do you think Kerry got one of the more popular posts to have in the navy? The man does a 180 upon returning early (only 3 and 1/2 months service) for injuries of a dubious nature and seeing that the war once favorable now gone sour he decides to burn bridges with his fellow servicemen and join the bitter ranks of those protesting the war. Not only does the man condemn his fellow soldiers of attrocities that he admitted committing himself he procedes to do outlandish public displays like throwing medals at the White House that are not even his among other things. This man is in the same league as Hanoi Jane and her little group that preached pacifism while condeming those who were there for thier country for acts of warfare that were legitimate. If Kerry is to be our president for the next 4 or 8 years I will guarentee that this nation will suffer greatly for not showing the strength it needs to so as to keep those who would see harm come to us take pause and maybe not attempt it at all. You do not hire a pacifist to do the job of a general over all armed forces. And as for those questioning the validity of the Swift Boat vets let us remember that the book proceeds are all going to the ad campaign and that the main soldier involved in this matter voted for Gore last time arround and is a confirmed independent who just abhors the idea that Kerry might just lead our country. God bless America and here is to a successful reelection of our Commander in Chief!!!

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:37 p.m. CST

    Rightwingers make me laugh

    by ol' painless

    You hold your noses and make yourselves support a half-man who got a free ride for EVERYTHING in his worthless life. I swear, the mental gymnastics you folks must go through, the sheer mental act of forcing yourelves to believe Bush is some straight-talking cowboy regular guy who has come to clean up Washington really is amazing. It must help you push out your daily loaf. I implore all of you to take a second look at W. If you still think he is still the prime slab of Texan T-Bone you imagine, please list all his virutes. Most of us are already aware of his extensive list of faults and failures, but please can I get a Bush supporter to post what they love about W? You can use bullet points if want.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:50 p.m. CST

    The Devil would vote for Bush methinks

    by johne5

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:54 p.m. CST

    Oh, and by the way, Lost Highway

    by ol' painless

    Democrats never ever questioned Bob Dole's war heroism. Because Democrats are patriots. Certain draft-dodging Republicans, filthy cowardly hypocrites that they are, are quite happy to slander a patriot with three Purple Hearts if they think it will win them votes. Expecially with people like you.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:55 p.m. CST

    FOR SHIVA

    by Dr Farragammo

    First off I want to make 1 thing clear . I'm not going to blast you unless you do likewise. I've got a hair trigger temper about these issues but iwant to pose some thoughts for you (and all fervent bush supporters ) to consider. SHIVA : You have got to get a grip on the propaganda you've been fed. If you believe that Cheney is a great guy, you need to realize something. Unless your a millionaire contributor to his campaign, a member of the board at Halliburton or a corporate bigwig with NO soul, Cheney could give 2 shits about you. They are using america like sheep and livestock, to further their agenda , to use soldiers as chesspieces on their business deal / religious crusade, and the american citizen is seen as something they have to put up with by lying and ignoring, so they can get on to what they're really about. Kerry won't BE WEAK on defense. The fact that you guys can't see the truth on this issue is maddening. Yes, Kerry spoke out about Vietnam. he did because he cared about the soldiers well being. he didn't blame those who did the atrocities, he realized that the sheer chaos and pointlessness of that war was driving those soldiers insane (some would argue, much like the Iraq prison scandal). He fought, he killed, and he did so when he could have been doing what most rich white kids did in the 60's : sex, drugs and rockandrool all on daddy's account. Now why is Bush good on defense? He never fought in a war, has no clue how to fight one now, and is clearly a drug tragedy that the christian conservatives have ironically forgived, although they'll damn any one else for it. Bush's plan will set the stage for more terrorists. In fact, as for this Bin-Laden being caught last minute for the election rumor, I think it could help Bush. But people will be completely bowled over when it happens again, not by bin laden, but by all the countless other one he and Bush have created by their independant zealotry over who is truly evil. We need to destroy terrorists, but we're not. We're punching a hole in a bee hive, and in the end, Shiva, it will be people like you and I , and the rest of this board who will be less safe, while Bush and Cheney relax in their bunkers, snorting coke and rolling in dough. Think it through , Shiva, your being used, and you can't even see it.

  • Sept. 26, 2004, 11:56 p.m. CST

    RE: Kerry has no soul

    by johne5

    Bush sold his. I was never really political until Bush came into office. I honestly feel like if Bush gets reelected then you, you, your family, me, my family, our friends, we're all fuckin dead. I'm done talkin about this stuff on a movie spoilers site, gimme some info on fuckin Indy 4 or something

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:51 a.m. CST

    Open letter to America:

    by WeedyMcSmokey

    Your country is fucked. Vote however you like.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:53 a.m. CST

    At least Kerry's wife never ran a stop sign and killed a teenage

    by Bill Maher

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:55 a.m. CST

    Theresa Heinz Kerry will be our first black First Lady!

    by Bill Maher

    She's from Mozambique!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:59 a.m. CST

    The reason why the Shit Boat Veterans were upset with Kerry's te

    by Bill Maher

    Reconstructing one day on a Swift boat By ROBERT PRICE, Californian staff columnist e-mail: rprice@bakersfield.com Posted: Saturday September 4th, 2004, 9:30 PM Last Updated: Saturday September 4th, 2004, 9:30 PM Bill Means needed to talk to me, he said. Right away. I didn't ask why; I figured it had something to do with Vietnam. We'd talked briefly a couple of months earlier about the war and about Swift boats. Thirty-five years ago, as a Navy seaman, Means had patrolled the southern coastline of the South China Sea and the mangrove-dense rivers of the country's interior -- 12 months in all, mostly spent in the pilot house of one of those 55-foot, aluminum-hulled Navy fighting boats. About a week ago, we made tentative plans to talk again. Then I didn't hear from him until he called abruptly, urgency in his voice. We sat down together and, agitated and emotional, he laid it all out for me. It bothered him, seeing Vietnam brought back into play as a political game piece. The left had done it to war veterans three decades ago. Returning servicemen had been vilified -- spat upon, in fact, as if they'd been the architects of U.S. foreign policy rather than just the young men and women obligated by law and duty to carry it out. Now the right had seized upon the Vietnam War, too -- specifically the role, in uniform and out, of Sen. John Kerry. And to Means, it seemed just as wrong. Means, a 55-year-old investigator for several Bakersfield law firms, was particularly annoyed by the words of one retired admiral. Roy F. "Latch" Hoffman, one of the co-founders of the pro-George W. Bush group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, had publicly criticized Kerry, a former Swift boat commander, for having brought back stories about alleged war crimes by U.S. forces -- often carried out, Kerry said in 1971, "with the full awareness of officers at all levels." Seemed to him, Means said, his own Swift boat crew had come close to committing a war crime themselves one day. A senior officer, hitching a ride up the coast aboard their Swift boat, had ordered the crew to fire on a small group of unarmed Vietnamese fishermen working their nets in unrestricted waters, Means said. The boat's commanding officer had refused to comply. Was that the way the boat's commander remembered the incident too, all these years later? Means had to know. So he got on the Internet and hunted down Thomas W.L. "Tad" McCall, the retired Navy captain who'd commanded Means' boat, PCF 88, as a newly minted ensign. Means called him. Not only did McCall remember the day in question, and that confrontation off the coast of South Vietnam, he remembered the name of the officer who had given the command to shoot: "Latch" Hoffman himself, then a Navy captain in charge of the entire Swift boat task force in Vietnam. The next morning Means told me the whole story. Then I called McCall myself. McCall, now 60, remembers March 14, 1969, because it was his 25th birthday. He'd only been running a Swift boat for a few weeks, having arrived in Vietnam in January 1969, the same month as Means. At the time, McCall said, the Navy was having trouble finding qualified officers to command those hazardous-duty patrol boats; lieutenant j.g.'s were in increasingly short supply. McCall, the son of Oregon's sitting governor, Republican Tom McCall, was only an ensign. That, the Navy was beginning to realize, would have to do. "I was really green," said McCall, who joined the Navy as an enlisted man in 1967 and retired in March 1992 as a captain and a JAG, or military attorney. McCall's crew was supposed to be off duty that day. But McCall was told Hoffman needed a ride up the coast to the base at Nha Trang to visit a seriously wounded Navy SEAL. "I was excited, nervous and kind of pleased we were going to get to take the commander of the task force up the coast, an hour and a half each way," McCall said. "A beautiful trip, an honor for us. The crew didn't think it was an honor, though. They thought it was a pain in the butt." Hoffman got to the boat at mid-morning, a distinguished-looking officer in brown camouflage. From the start, Hoffman made it clear the trip would be no pleasure cruise. He wanted to search every Vietnamese boat they passed, it seemed. McCall protested mildly; he knew many of those boats from having patrolled those same waters almost daily. Then Hoffman set his attention on a small cluster of fishing boats, four small vessels with perhaps 10 fishermen, about 1,000 yards offshore. "We had seen them in the water there many, many times," McCall said. "They were fishing at a good fishing place ... in traditional fishing waters. 'Another patrol is coming up behind us soon,' I told him. 'We're taking you for a ride, not patrolling.'" But Hoffman ordered a crewman to hail the fishing boats on a bullhorn. The fishermen didn't respond. So Hoffman ordered a crewman to fire his M-16 in their direction, splashing the water around them. The fishermen, perhaps not understanding what they were supposed to do, still didn't respond. "Shoot closer," McCall remembers Hoffman saying. "I can't shoot closer, sir, I'll hit them," the crewman said. "Well, do it," Hoffman said. The meaning of those words were clear to everyone aboard PCF 88, McCall said. Hoffman was ordering the fishing party destroyed, the fishermen killed. The officers argued policy; McCall realized it was ultimately his call. He ordered his men to stand down, leave the fishermen alone and move on. He sent Hoffman below deck, and the captain, cursing, complied. "From that day on," said Means, who witnessed the exchange from his post at the wheel, "McCall was our hero." When McCall got back to the base at Cam Ranh Bay, he was told he would receive an administrative punishment -- a 30-day benching known as being "in hack," for which official records were not kept. "There was no animosity afterward," McCall said, noting that when Hoffman left Vietnam, the sailors at Cam Ranh Bay threw him a party. "I think, if I remember right, he gave me a hug," McCall said. "He was a rascal, a colorful guy. We had an amicable parting of the ways. I just thought his leadership at the time was misguided." Hoffman did not return my e-mail message asking for his comment. After leaving the Navy, McCall served as a deputy assistant secretary of the Air Force, a civilian post, from 1994 to 2001. Since that time he has worked as a consultant to the Army on environmental matters. He has been approached by representatives of the Kerry campaign about telling his story, he said. He's not particularly political, so he's not interested. Means feels the same -- to a point. "We weren't Republicans and Democrats on those Swift boats," he said. "We were (expletive) trying to stay alive. (Things) happened, but we can't go back and reconstruct it from 35 years ago." But if others, whatever their motivation, insist on trying to do so now, Means is willing to try too. In his view, his commanding officer did the right thing 35 years ago by speaking up. Speaking up himself, Bill Means believes, is the least he can do today. No wonder those scumbags are so defensive! Kerry was calling a spade a spade. Fuck the Shit Boat Veterans, they're Nazi war criminals.

  • More reasons not to vote for Kerry. Again, a vote for Kerry is equal to treason.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1:16 a.m. CST

    futureoffilm's got it right 100%

    by Dr Farragammo

    futureoffilm, I'm with you 100% pal. I'll take my escapism where I can get it. Times are fucking stressful and I have never been this involved in politics since the last Bush went for (and FAILED) a 2nd term. I was quite happy being apathetic and disgusted with the statis quo and then THIS happened. Well I learned my lesson, and it won't happen again, so maybe the fact that we're in one of the worst politicial and economic times in our history as a nation , that it will bring out the best in us (ie not Bushpublicans) to change this country in a better direction. Hell I was so desperate for escapism I bought Lucas's bastatrdized version of his trilogy: and i LIKED it! BTW SkyCaptain rules!!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1:23 a.m. CST

    Night of The Living Shiva

    by Dr Farragammo

    And with that last comment Shiva, you have proven my point that you are completely brainwashed and don't have an original, or logical thought in your head. You need help, but you won't get in from an administration that cuts veterans benefits, and lets drug lobbysists up the prices of drugs so high you have to go to canada to afford them. Seriously man, your sick. Either that or your one of those wacky Rove drones , peddling your pedantic unrealsitic rhetoric while pounding your stubby piggy pig supersized fingers into your jizz drenched keyboard. I'll pray for you pal.....to get a fucking clue!!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 2:13 a.m. CST

    You can't spell KOOKY or KERRY without a "K"

    by Triumph poops!

    Flashback to the Democratic Primaries: Howard Dean says the Iraq War is (quote) "The wrong war at the wrong time." In response, John Kerry angrily responds that Howard Dean hasn't got a clue about right and wrong, and that the war is the RIGHT course of action for America to take either to stop Saddam from either having WMD or certainly to stop him from ever acquiring them in the future. So John Kerry votes FOR the war in the Senate and then in the months that follow he likewise props himself up for a run in the primaries as a "hawk", to show he's strong on defense. So Kerry wins the Democratic primaries...that is, he defeats anti-war advocate Dean...at which point Kerry FLIP FLOPS his stance in order to suck-up to and to secure the core Liberal base that HAD been behind Dean. And to appear anti-Bush altogether simply to pull all the Lefties together. Ok, fine...so now Kerry's AGAINST the war. Meanwhile, people call him on the obvious political flip-flop, pointing to his public (and much recorded) stance against Dean in ALL the primary debates. Where Kerry said he was FOR the war. So of course now Kerry flip flops BACK to saying he's FOR the war -- and best of all, he claims he never changed him mind. What the fuck?!? He even says flat out -- and I quote -- "Knowing what we know now (ie. given the intel failures), I'd STILL vote for it because removing Saddam was the best thing for America." Which brings us to this past Labor Day where Kerry flip-flopped AGAIN as he tried out his latest TV and campaign sound bite so people would possibly take him more seriously (which no one can do at this point since the man's a total joke and buffoon). So now Kerry's on the campaign trail and he's flip flopped to the point of literally -- literally -- not only saying he's back (for like the 17th time) saying that he was always against the war (what the fuck?!?) but as if this could be more comical, now Kerry's literally STOLEN Dean's own quote and is using it as his own now! That's right -- he's using the same quote Dean used which Kerry took him to task for in the Democratic primary debates! Go figure THAT one out! So now we have Kerry saying "The W in GWB is for the wrong war at the wrong time." Gimme a fucking break already! Kerry is a gruesome looking man who comes from a priveleged and pampered past where he once yachted with JFK as a teen, hence he grew up figuring the country now "owes" it to him to be President. As if it was predetermined in some MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE manner that because of his past or his family's connections, gosh darn it, he DESERVES to be President. Meanwhile, spoiled brat boy and classic New England Uber-Liberal boy who's got Ted Kennedy's hand so far up his ass you'd think he was getting a daily prostate exam is in search of a spine and a position he can actually stand by without flip flopping in 30 seconds or less. Of course, the way to tell "where" Kerry stands on ANY issue is pretty damn simple. You just have to look around and see "who" he's talking to or "where" he is at that moment in time. Because figuring Kerry out is easy. John Kerry will say ANYTHING to ANYONE at ANY TIME at ANY PLACE in his desperate bid to secure votes, particularly now that he's fallen behind Bush in the polls and is still struggling. This guy hasn't got a clue. Either that or all the flip flops this guy does truly demonstrates how mentally schizo he is -- which would explain his irratic, kooky behavior. Then again, that would make sense since you can't spell KERRY or KOOKY without a "K"!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 2:24 a.m. CST

    STOP WITH THE POLITICS YOU STUPID UNINTELLIGENT SNOBS!

    by J-Dizzle

    Got your attention? Good. I would just like to say that my vote is going to anybody who can turn AICN around from the bastardized political trash propaganda machine that it has become and back into the spoiler filled junk site that we all loved. Argue all you want, no matter how much you Reps and Dems argue over why America shouldn't vote for the "other guy" won't make one bit of difference because at the end of the day Reps will vote Elephant and Dems will vote Donkey. That's right, you idiots are wasting your time and energy, and the rest of us undecided voters think your preachy ways are annoying and just plain crazy (and you guys wonder why so few Americans actually vote). I mean honestly, I get enough political mucas from the news, I don't need it on this site too. Some of you may argue that it's your constitutional right, and that you are merely exercizing freedom of speech. Let me remind you that this ain't CNN or FOX, and therefore it's one thing to practice your rights, but it's a whole different ball game when you're shooting your political load all over AICN, a place that was supposed to be about the latest movie spoilers, RIGHT HARRY?!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 2:45 a.m. CST

    hey jsadighi

    by Dr Farragammo

    I know it sux to hear all this shit, but I'm sorry CNN & FOX don't cover it. They are corporate owned & don't allow for opposing view points, except to poke fun or show what an abberation they are to their homogenized viewpoint. People may bitch about Clinton, but in those days it was all spoiler alerts and movie time wasn't it? Well too bad we have who we have now. Because a growing majority is pissed off and sick of not being listened to. So it spills out onto places like the boards where free speech is still (hopefully) tolerated, because it is in short supply. You call us all (reps and dems)idiots. Why I could certainly slant that a certain way, I won't. But I will ask this of you : This board is about a movie about John Kerry made 2months before the election. Why would we not be feverishly discussing politics here? And the fact that your undecided makes me question the same lack of intelligence you've accused us of. It seems pretty obvious you should have a stand by now in what's at stake for your future and mine.Larry David calls undecided voters "people who have already made their minds up, but want all the attention." Well you certainly have made your claim. Now if you decide to vote for Bush because of my statement then your voting lies strictly on emotion and feeling then of logic. When things get better the talks get lighter jsadighi, and we can go back to being the AICN of old. But if Bush wins in November it will be LOUDER and ANGRIER than ever. Do something about it.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 2:56 a.m. CST

    Check the records of military and chicken-hawks

    by Sam Bones

    MILITARY RECORDS OF PROMINENT FIGURES http://www.alternet.org/election04/log/ DEMOCRATS Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71. David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72. Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72. Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade. Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam. Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII. John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V Purple Hearts. John Edwards: did not serve. Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea. Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953. Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91. Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit. Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart. Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V. Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star. Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57 Chuck Robb: Vietnam Howell Heflin: Silver Star George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII. Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received 311. Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy. Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953 John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters. Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg. Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple Heart, Silver Star. Retired 4-star general. John Dingell: WWII vet John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea REPUBLICANS Dennis Hastert: did not serve. Tom Delay: did not serve. House Whiip Roy Blunt: did not serve. Bill Frist: did not serve. Rudy Giuliani: did not serve. George Pataki: did not serve. Mitch McConnell: did not serve. Rick Santorum: did not serve. Trent Lott: did not serve. Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage. John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business. Jeb Bush: did not serve. Karl Rove: did not serve. Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism. Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve. Vin Weber: did not serve. Richard Perle: did not serve. Douglas Feith: did not serve. Eliot Abrams: did not serve. Richard Shelby: did not serve. Jon Kyl: did not serve. Tim Hutchison: did not serve. Christopher Cox: did not serve. Newt Gingrich: did not serve. Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight instructor. George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four). Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies. Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII Phil Gramm: did not serve. John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Bob Dole: an honorable veteran. Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Silver Stars, Air Medals, Purple Hearts. Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986 JC Watts: did not serve. Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer. G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese. Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam. Antonin Scalia: did not serve. Clarence Thomas: did not serve PUNDITS & PREACHERS Sean Hannity: did not serve. Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.') Bill O'Reilly: did not serve. Michael Savage: did not serve. George Will: did not serve. Chris Matthews: did not serve. Paul Gigot: did not serve. Bill Bennett: did not serve. Pat Buchanan: did not serve. Bill Kristol: did not serve. Kenneth Starr: did not serve. Michael Medved: did not serve.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 3:02 a.m. CST

    Sam Bones, you are a great American

    by Dr Farragammo

    that's great work there. Show all the sonofbitches for the pussies they are.Too bad the nuts will come out and try to discredit the records and completely rewrite history. . How about calling them the AICN Message Board Vets for Lies!

  • Vote Bush for Today may be The Day.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 6:36 a.m. CST

    Snopes: Draft rumors are HOAX

    by the G-man

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:20 a.m. CST

    didn't see it

    by koosbane

    one morning, I was leaving a parking lot at my college. It forms a t-intersection with the main road in and out of the college. A car was turning into the parking lot and had to cross over the lane that had traffic coming down the hill from other parking lots and exiting the campus. As the car crossed over the lane leaving the campus, it was hit by a car coming down the hill and trying to leave the campus. Interestingly enough, even though the accident happened in front of me, I didn't see a thing because I wasn't in either car involved in the accident. Or so my progressive friends tell me I didn't.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:44 a.m. CST

    Oh I get it Shiva, your trolling! Nice work!

    by Jon L. Ander

    You had me fooled for a minute! "The south will rise again" indeed! Exactly how much money have you contributed so far to Kerry's campaign?

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:49 a.m. CST

    AICNs, your source for liberal propaganda

    by Ninja_Master

    First off, I will never visit this site again. I am so sick of coming to aicn for "movie news", only to have this socialist propaganda spewed at me by some guy who can't even spell. Your claim to fame is movie news Harry, why do you think anyone would give a damn about your political views? I'm debating on who to give the "Stalin's Useful Idiot" award to. I think Voice O. Reason, for his moronic post that "Very few of [the swiftboat vets] have even ever met Kerry, while the guys on his actual crew vouch for him". You obviously know absolutely nothing about the swiftboat debate. Who are you typing to? Who are you trying to convince? Anyone that's followed this knows you are an idiot. But I guess you and the other hate-blinded liberals need to gather around and bolster each others paranoid delusions with camp fire tales of conspiracies, and socialist utopias.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 9:33 a.m. CST

    In case you're serious CHRTH, i'll explain it.

    by baghutch

    There are 2 political parties with any sway in this country. We know who they both are and what they basically represent (or what they basically say to represent, used to represent, and seem to represent). One is the party that tries to help the majority of people by helping the people on the basis of individual need. The other is the party that tries to help people under the theory that helping the top 2% of people in the country will allow a trickle down effect that will eventually help the other 98%. This party is NOT interested in helping someone who's getting a start in their parents' basement unless it happens indirectly, or if their economic theory which has been proved unsound under at least 3 administrations somehow starts to work. They sell the promise to get those who'd never vote for them (because that party is not interested in them at all) to vote for what they'd help them with should they ever happen to attain that top 2% status. They never have to follow through with the promise because they seem to honestly believe that the lower 98% of people have no sway, no power, and no need to be listened to. The majority can be ignored at all points (even if it is a 49-53% majority) as long as the power rests in the hands of those whose interest is helping the people with enough money to get them re-elected. I'm an independent, but will vote for the party that at least is willing to help those who have it worse than I do. They might not help me either, but those they help will need it. Those they help won't complain that they have to make due with only 700,000 after taxes. To address CBS'failure of research verification vs. the govt.'s failure of research verification-anyone who feels that CBS should be a little vilified for screwing it up is right. 100% right in fact. You can't just go out and say "this is this" if "this" is that. Heads can, and need to roll over this. But, if that's the case, how can the current administration be held to a lower standard than the media when their mistakes in following incorrect and non-verified information has an actual effect on a national level? How many died because CBS didn't get it right? How many have died because the current administration didn't get it right? The majority of Americans at the start of the IDEA of the war in Iraq weren't swayed that there was any threat. The documents, speeches, and appearances that were used presented a successive, escalating series of either non-confirmed research (or flat out lies...which would you prefer they were?) that was intended to bring the support of the majority around to the way of thinking needed to keep the administration in office by having the American people be afraid enough of what they were saying to feel they HAD to support them. Real leadership in this situation would have been to say at the start that it doesn't matter that 70% of Americans are against the idea, the right thing to do is to oust Hussein. Manipulation of evidence, the absence of verification of evidence, and the option to ignore evidence that doesn't make your case even if it IS verified does not make a case for the current administration to be given four more years to for this sort of policy institution. If it's wrong for CBS, and is really really was, can anyone say it was not at least the same level of wrong for the current administration?

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 9:37 a.m. CST

    In case CHRTH is serious, I'll explain

    by baghutch

    There are 2 political parties with any sway in this country. We know who they both are and what they basically represent (or what they basically say to represent, used to represent, and seem to represent). One is the party that tries to help the majority of people by helping the people on the basis of individual need. The other is the party that tries to help people under the theory that helping the top 2% of people in the country will allow a trickle down effect that will eventually help the other 98%. This party is NOT interested in helping someone who's getting a start in their parents' basement unless it happens indirectly, or if their economic theory which has been proved unsound under at least 3 administrations somehow starts to work. They sell the promise to get those who'd never vote for them (because that party is not interested in them at all) to vote for what they'd help them with should they ever happen to attain that top 2% status. They never have to follow through with the promise because they seem to honestly believe that the lower 98% of people have no sway, no power, and no need to be listened to. The majority can be ignored at all points (even if it is a 49-53% majority) as long as the power rests in the hands of those whose interest is helping the people with enough money to get them re-elected. I will vote this year for the party who will help those who have it worse than me even if they don't help me personally. I will not vote for the party who complains that they have to 'survive' on $700,000 after taxes. To address CBS'failure of research verification vs. the govt.'s failure of research verification-anyone who feels that CBS should be a little vilified for screwing it up is right. 100% right in fact. You can't just go out and say "this is this" if "this" is that. Heads can, and need to roll over this. But, if that's the case, how can the current administration be held to a lower standard than the media when their mistakes in following incorrect and non-verified information has an actual effect on a national level? How many died because CBS didn't get it right? How many have died because the current administration didn't get it right? The majority of Americans at the start of the IDEA of the war in Iraq weren't swayed that there was any threat. The documents, speeches, and appearances that were used presented a successive, escalating series of either non-confirmed research (or flat out lies...which would you prefer they were?) that was intended to bring the support of the majority around to the way of thinking needed to keep the administration in office by having the American people be afraid enough of what they were saying to feel they HAD to support them. Real leadership in this situation would have been to say at the start that it doesn't matter that 70% of Americans are against the idea, the right thing to do is to oust Hussein. Manipulation of evidence, the absence of verification of evidence, and the option to ignore evidence that doesn't make your case even if it IS verified does not make a case for the current administration to be given four more years to for this sort of policy institution. If it's wrong for CBS, and is really really was, can anyone say it was not at least the same level of wrong for the current administration?

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 10:58 a.m. CST

    by Mr. Anderson

    George Bush, like his father, is a lying sack of shit who will stop at nothing to stay in power. He will parade around with the "leader" of Iraq that he installed, who just so happens to be one of Saddam's former assassins, and lie to American people about how great things are over there. He was asked last week whether now that 1,000 soldiers have died in Iraq, would he still play dress-up on an aircraft carrier? His answer was "absolutely". The biggest problem with Bush is that he's acting like he won the last election in a landslide, when the truth is that MORE PEOPLE VOTED FOR THE OTHER GUY! And no, I will NEVER get over that, EVER. He should be driving right down the middle of the road because he knows (or he should know) that a big chunk of the country doesn't want him there, and were it not for a fluke in the election laws in Florida (who's the governor of Florida again? doesn't matter...) he would not even have his job. But instead he led us into two wars that resulted in 1,000+ dead Americans, a ballooning deficit that has no sign of stopping, stripping environmental regulations, letting the ban on assault weapons lapse, trying to write bigotry and hate into the Constitution, attempting to turn back the clock on womens' rights 30 years, ignoring scientific proof of global warming, alienating our allies, creating far more terrorists than he kills, etc, etc....

  • Ask anyone from the South. No one will tell that they're happy with the liberal climate of permissivism and hedonism of the clinton years that still hangs like a poisonous fog over our culture. The only way to clear the air is to have a Republican in the White House for the next half century.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Liberal?

    by Super Person

    I'm still trying to figure out why a Liberal voting record is a bad thing... since when did being Liberal become such an evil that even Liberals will do anything to avoid the label? Seems like a good label to have to me...

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:03 p.m. CST

    SHIVA

    by Super Person

    I'm from the South (born in Louisiana, lived in Texas for the past 15 years) and I LOVED Clinton, and yearn for those days, or perhaps for new days of liberalism and the destruction of the current conservative atmosphere... so does literally everyone I know, EXCEPT for big business owners and rich people...

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:12 p.m. CST

    From A Democrat with Love

    by madoo14

    Alright here it goes, I'm going to try to talk to the Republicans without being mean, condescending, sardonic, or angry. On Iraq: We are not against the war, we are against the way the war is being fought. Bush has potrayed and fought this war like WWII with an objective of completely annhilating an enemy into surrender when it is much more like the Cold War. While military victories are important we must also convince these people to adopt our way of life. This makes social, economic, and diplomatic efforts just as, if not, more important than military ones. Bush has shown almost no effort to promote these programs in fighting terror. Imagine if we had poured the amount of resources in Iraq into Afghanistan. The country would be much more stable than it is now and we would have our democratic foothold to spread out from. Now the Arab world sees us as the cocky Americans who go into a country blow everything up and make things worse than they were. While we all know this isn't true, our mission in this war is to convince them. These people are not as simple minded as Bush makes them seem and their motivation is much deeper than hating our freedom. Osama Bin Laden became a terrorist when U.S. foreign policy put troops in his country, and supported Israel, and put people like Sadaam is power. We may be right, but we are not perfect and the Bush philosiphy of never owning up to mistakes only makes the rest of the world look at us the way Democrats see Bush. On the economy: We are not against the tax cuts we are against the type that were given. Tax cuts have proven to be an effective way to stem a reccession but cutting taxes on dividends and the estate tax doesn't exactly help the average American too much. A cut in payroll taxes for example might help more. A balanced budget is very important to us but Bush has shown no signs of turning around his record deficits. The government must exercise fiscal responsibility otherwise my generation will be paying the bill. On Gay Marriage: Sometimes the courts need to exercise their power, its why they are there. When the Supreme Court desegregated public schools most people did not agree with the decision. That kind of legislation would have never made it through congress or passed on a referendum but it was still the right thing to do. The courts are there to make sure that our laws are just and fair and subverting that power will only hurt democracy. Our moral compass, moved as far away from partisan politics as possible. Many people may not agree with it now but years later I think we will see that the courts were right and the majority of Americans were wrong again.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:14 p.m. CST

    Anderson

    by Super Person

    Good point about Bush... one thing I always try to remind people is that once upon a time, there was something called a MANDATE, which was relevant to how a president behaved in office... if he had a mandate, i.e. the large majority of the country voted for him, he could pursue his own agenda with impunity, because he knew the large majority of the country was behind him, and he was thus representing their interests accordingly... however, Bush did not win a mandate, and he acts as though he did... this is one of the most unfortunate hallmarks of his presidency... he doesn't believe he represents the people... he believes he is his own man and should do whatever HE believes.. that's fine if you've got a mandate.. then you know the majority of the country is behind you... but he didn't... he lost the popular election... even if he WON the popular election, that alone wouldn't mean he had that mandate; he would have had to have won by a clear and wide margin... past presidents have generally respected this concept, but sadly, not him...

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:14 p.m. CST

    Harry, Harry, Harry...

    by Apple Pie

    Dagnabit Harry, stop writing pitch ads for Kerry and concentrate on what you do - you are not a political commentator, that is not what your site is supposed to represent, and this is not why I come here! I've got FOX, MSNBC, Dennis Miller, and a host of others to fill that need - I'm starting to not like hitting your website buddy - chill!!!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:39 p.m. CST

    Bush isn't dividing this country

    by ejcarter9

    The Democrats are. Sneaky. Filthy. False. Democrats. Think about this... if Bush hadn't gone into Iraq, what would the Democrats be saying today? That Bush is standing by doing nothing while a madman is still able to potentially wreak havoc on us and on his neighbors. The Democrats are the real dividers in this country. Bush brought a new tone to Washington, but the Dems weren't going to play nice. I don't blame them... that's just the way they are. You can't blame the rain for getting you wet... what else is it going to do? Anybody but Kerry in '04 (or Nader)

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:51 p.m. CST

    EJ Carter

    by Super Person

    Your whole argument as posed is totally conjectural... "what would the Democrats say if"? Give me a break.. I'd also like to take this opportunity to remind you that Clinton pursued the policy of containment FOR EIGHT YEARS and no one ever said "he's letting a madman run rampant!" or anything of the sort... Bush could've done the same thing and the Democrats would probably NOT have complained, based on the previous 8 years of containment... let me also remind you that George HW Bush (the senior) did NOT invade and occupy Iraq as his son did, because he LISTENED to the military and the CIA who told him it would never work... his son was not so wise...

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 12:57 p.m. CST

    EJ Carter

    by Super Person

    Of course I responded to your post about "dividers" but it put it arbitrarily up somewhere in the previous messages... just in case you care...

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1 p.m. CST

    EJ Carter 2

    by Super Person

    And wait, what "new tone"? If you mean the tone of "if you disagree with us publicly we'll out your CIA wife putting her life in danger" then sure... it's back to Nixon dirty tricks for the Bush white house... have you listened to the number of people in major media outlets who go unnamed when they criticize the Bush white house because they're afraid of the repercussions?

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1:12 p.m. CST

    The conservatives smell a loss coming . . . .

    by Klone

    the conservatives feel a loss coming. They tried to smear Kerry's military history because of Bush's inexcusable lack of military history. (during what years was Bush SR. head of the CIA?) The anti-war feeling is strong through out the voters. The excuse that 'I got bad intelligence' is no excuse. It is so obvious that Bush is heading toward a loss that Phat Buchanan was on the Daily Show saying that the 'real question' is why did Kerry vote for the war? He also said it wasn't the conservatives who got us into the war. It was the Neo-Conversatives. What the hell is a Neo-Conservative and how did those evil bastards steal the government right out from under George W.(weapons of mass destruction)Bush's nose? Probably done through deliberately bad intelligence. And movies. The conspiracy this all implies is frightening. They're probably watching this web site right now....... RUN RUN RUN

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1:26 p.m. CST

    GOODBYE REPUBLICANS!

    by bushsux

    Bye bye you fucking ignorant hypocrite scum. I love this conservative whining about how there is too much political talk on this "movie site". Funny thing is, not only is it HARRY'S RIGHT to talk about whatever the fuck he wants, but he has damned good reason to since it is the Republican party that is trying to bring politics to movies and entertainment by trying to censor movies about the president(Farenheit 9/11), fine CBS $550,000 for showing a nipple and trying to get rid of Howard Stern because he said Bush wasn't doing a good job. This is movie news. Republicans have been trying to change what we watch for years, where the fuck have you been. Besaides, this criticism is so hypocritical, you never hear Republicans complain about celebrities voicing their political opinions when they agree with them. That's why it's okay for Arnold Schwarzenegger to run for Govenor of California but not okay for Tom Hanks to say he voted for Clinton.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1:34 p.m. CST

    DEMOCRATS ARE THE REAL PATRIOTS

    by bushsux

    Harry Truman, John Kennedy, John Kerry, Bob Kerrey, Tom Daschle, Al Gore and me. All these men have two things in common. One, they're all Democrats. Two, they're all veterans . How dare you say that anyone who disagrees with you and votes for Kerry is a traitor? How dare you? This country is a democracy founded on disagreement and freedom of speech. George W Bush has failed the American people as a chief executive. It is their right to get rid of him. Three years after 9/11 Osama Bin Laden is still free, Al Queda has grown stronger and garnered more support as a result of the War in Iraq and Iran is developing nuclear weapons and long-range missiles. Gee, this war in Iraq really sent a message to the middle east and scared the living bejesus out of them. We need a President with some brains. We need a President with some tact. We need a President that the rest of the world can respect. We need John Kerry.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1:35 p.m. CST

    GingerTwit......Ralph Nader...

    by Roger Thornhill

    Is nothing but a Republican stooge. His aides have admitted that they will accept Republican help if they cannot get enough signatures to be on the ballots in certain states. Why would a man who despises both parties accept help from the more conservative of the two? Isn't he a proud liberal? Then why is getting on the ballot through Ross Perot's Reform Party? He's a complete and utter hypocrite. Out of the three main choices for president...Kerry is the best choice. He's not perfect by any measure, but he sure beats Bush and Nader. A vote for Nader is truly a vote for Bush. Vote Kerry if you want a change.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Changing the law so that a foreign born U.S. citizen can become

    by JDanielP

    As ridiculous as ANOTHER term for a 2-term President. -- Republicans are just anti-American. WAKE UP, AMERICA!!!!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 3:04 p.m. CST

    Did anyone else notice?

    by Larry Jay

    I am a liberal and a 20 year veteran of the United States Navy. I've served in war. George Bush did not. John Kerry put his boots on the ground in Vietnam. George Bush was getting his teeth cleaned in Alabama. The Swift Boat Veterans for truth are liars and pawns. "I served with John Kerry" does NOT mean that "I WAS ON THE SAME BOAT as John Kerry" For that matter I SERVED with Colin Powell in the Gulf War. He was in the Pentagon and I was in the engine room of a destroyer. George Bush got an honorable discharge? So what? Most people kicked out of the service for drug use can get a GENERAL UNDER HONORABLE discharge. Its still an honorable discharge. Its a matter of degree. I just have this question for SHIVA and the rest of his neo-con ILK... WHERE IS YOUR DD-214? And if you're like CHENEY, RUMSFELD, WOLFOWICZ , HANNITY, LIMBAUGH, O'REILLY and the rest of the neo con scum you can proudly say... I WAS DEFERRED.....

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 3:44 p.m. CST

    "Triumph Poops"

    by tdibble1

    "You know, I laugh every time I hear Libs shooting off about how the "educated" Kerry is going to clean Bush's clock in the debates." ... Well, I don't know who's saying that. The simple fact of the matter is that Bush has never lost a debate (for a political office ... not talking about Andover Toast Masters here). Bush is a very good debater. Why? Because, every time he goes into a debate, he has successfully set the bar so damned low an ant could step over it. He can tell outright lies and have his listeners apologize for it, "poor little guy! Nerves musta got to 'im!" ... He can mispronounce countries and world leaders and the response is, "Yeah, I don't know the leader of Botswana either ... he's a real man of the people!" Stop yielding Bush the soft bigotry of low expectations. He's a damned good debater.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 3:53 p.m. CST

    Cannibal_Nun ...

    by tdibble1

    "Depends on whether you're taking John Kerry up on his words in 1971, in which he described himself as having 'carried out atrocities' and described himself and his fellow vets as "war criminals"" ... Ummm, okay, I can see that right-wing propaganda has worked its magic on you and a host of others on this talk-back. Kerry never said he had committed attrocities. Look it up instead of taking Rush's word and a butchered video tape. He read to the Congress the findings of his Winter Soldiers inquiry, in which he quoted several veterans who admitted to attrocities and war crimes, and, yes, he said (in conclusion) that there were soldiers out there (based on both those findings and his own experience) who were indeed war criminals. He never called all veterans, carte blanche, war criminals, although I know from personal experience that some veterans took his remarks as such. It seems a singularly indisputable fact, given the hindsight of 29+ years, that war crimes were indeed committed in that country (on both sides), and that, indeed, John Kerry's congressional testimony was both truthful and prescient.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 4:59 p.m. CST

    Expect a lot of Right Wing shills in this talkback

    by lettersoftransit

    The PRMA -- People for Return to Monarchy in America -- have hired people to pretend to be fellow geeks on the internet, in the hope of converting some votes to the Dark Side. Since geek culture often hinges on the appeal of comics and films that preach kindness, sacrifice and power meaning responsibility, they have their job cut out for them. But expect them to try.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 5:03 p.m. CST

    CannibalDung this is your life calling!

    by Dr Farragammo

    Hey cannibaldung. I see you fled from thw last board so I'm reposting this message(with a few dvd extras), and calling you out for the lying, disengenous piece of shit you are. I wrote this just for you so enjoy it! Well I'm glad I was out of town for a couple of days to see what limpwristed attacks were thrown at me by cannibalnun. Seems the rest of the board sees you for the idiotic hatefilled corporate owned shell of a man (or lack thereof) you are. Now I know your full of shit about being a millionaire, because you threw in the "before I get laid" line. false bragaddacchio never sounded more clearly stated. Anybody who talks so much shit rarely attains it. I'm sure the only thing you got off to was a cardboard standup of Bush & Greenspan in thongs while you jerked your prepubuscent cock , hoping you would climax in $100 bills instead of your braindead sperm.Or cumming by being rammed in the ass from a Hummer, the resulting pain and agony distracting from the fact that your smurflike cock has never been touched by anyone possessing a vagina (and I weep for anyone who has come close.)You probably are like one of those dumbfuck NASCAR dads who barely scrape by but one day are going to be millionaires just like George W, cause he's just like us, and anything possible in America! Yeah it is, when the playing field is levelled and is a true frre market again. But that's not the case now and it's never been more disporportionate between corporate slime and the average working guy they shit on. Turns out your a Nazi sympathizer, eh? That's a REAL turn on to the ladies. So is voting for a group of people who engage in sex as often as they do in honesty. Perhaps all this misplaced aggression, hatred, and confused point of view points to unconfirmed impulses in your sexuality? May I suggest you volunteer to help with the Bush campaign, and work with Ralph Reed? I'm sure you 2 closet cases can find a few things in common, like watching The Passion of The Christ while fisting each other with the Bill of Rights , and having a swordfight over who gets to have their picture taken first with Toby Keith.Or even better volunteering for target practice for Ted Nugent, who can try one of those newly legal assault weapons , in his vain attempts to find your balls in his target scope.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 5:19 p.m. CST

    The draft and why conservatives are STUPID for saying that it wo

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Gee gang have we forgotten that there is an ELECTION about to happen? Does anyone honestly think that the administration would bother to tell us if they were planning to reinstitute the draft? Hell no, Bush knows that no one would elect his sorry ass knowing he had such plans. So go ahead morons give this creep another 4 years. I hope you don't have any male relatives between the ages of 18-35. Fortunately I am in Canada while my wife goes to school, so they can kiss my ass. If they try to send my baby brother, I love him enough to break his legs. No kin of mine is going to fight in that mess.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 5:34 p.m. CST

    Silver Shamrock ...

    by tdibble1

    It's amazing what a little videotape and a linear editing machine can do for you. It would take about five minutes to put a videotape of Bush admitting "I ... killed ... innocent civilians" from his State of the Union 2004 address. Of course, the context (ie, what's between those ellipses and what's around the statement in general) shows that to be a sham; he never admitted such a thing. Saying that he did would be dishonest and immoral. When you take Kerry's reading of someone else's confession of war crimes, edit out where he says that these are someone else's words, and air those as an attack on the man, you expose yourself as one of the most despicable class of scum. The "Swift Boat Vets" have been exposed from a hundred different angles in a thousand different ways. They are at the core a group of politically and financially-motivated liars, surrounded by a much larger group of men whose memories are not exactly rock-solid and who are susceptible to a little coached suggestions.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 5:47 p.m. CST

    cannibal nun are you STILL talking?

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    And all of you anti Michael Moore people either need to put up or shut up. You make sweeping declarations about the mans' credibility and yet you offer fuck-all to back it up. Conservative fuckwits. Go ahead, vote for Bush, and when your kid gets shipped off to get killed by some radical nut halfway across the world, I will be very interested to hear about your unfailing support for your idiot leader. Fuck you people, you use the word liberal like it's an insult. Well, I hate to burst your bubble but every, "pinko commie, bleeding heart liberal" is just as AMERICAN as your fascist ass. The way you devalue the opinion of anyone who doesn't share your own shallow heartless perspective illustrates how UN-AMERICAN you are. This is a democracy asshole.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 5:48 p.m. CST

    LostHighway

    by tdibble1

    "SO funny how Liberals are now put in the position of trying to denigrate someone for avoiding a bullshit, unjust war!" Bush's service or lack thereof wasn't an issue until Bush's Texas cronies made it an issue by attacking Kerry's record. Would I vote for Kerry because he is a war hero? Hell no. Of course not. Did you vote for Dole only because he was a war hero (despite the fact that his purple heart wound was self-inflicted by his own admission)? I didn't think so. But here we have two men, Bush and Kerry, both brought up in priviledge (Bush moreso than Kerry in that regard), both facing the Vietnam war. Bush says he supports the war, pulls some strings to get on the Texas Air National Guard, and can't even keep his sh*t together long enough to serve a cushy 6-years-of-weekends committment in exchange for his Get Out of Vietnam Free card. Kerry speaks out against the war, but realizes his committment to his country and serves one tour in the Navy, then volunteers for a second tour on deep-country swift boats, which tour is ended after only four months because of his valor and injuries. Presumably, Bush supported the war to the end, even as he was skipping out on flight duties and refusing to spend an hour getting a physical. It is well-documented that Kerry continued to oppose the war, and turned his convictions into leadership of an organization opposed to the war which was one of the few credible anti-war organizations known more for their politics and convincing arguments than for their anarchist attacks. Bush made the early-70s an issue in this campaign, and there is no way in hell that a rational look at those two proto-candidates at that time in their lives can lead anyone to conclude Bush would ever be the better leader. Personally, I'm not voting for Kerry because of how he acted during the Vietnam War, although I certainly wouldn't vote *against* him for such. I'm voting for him because of his consistent voting record, his core values as demonstrated in that voting record, his leadership, and the simple fact that he's not so controlled by his daddie's cronies that he'd lead the country to a war to prove a wrongheaded point.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 5:55 p.m. CST

    missinglink

    by tdibble1

    "If you think Bush pulled strings, how do you think Kerry got one of the more popular posts to have in the navy?" ... umm, going up a river in a little boat with a motor that can be heard three miles away, surrounded by dense jungle, essentially acting as "flypaper" to draw out enemy snipers ... yeah, that's definitely more popular than that loser of a post "sitting in a blue-water carrier a thousand miles from any action" ... yeah. Of course. How could I have been so decieved? Obviously, Shrub's valiant defense of the Texas/Arkansas skies (you know, until his squad was actually called up to go on defensive patrols and Bush skipped town) trumps Kerry's priviledge-enduced free ride any day!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 6 p.m. CST

    Cannibal Nun

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Man, I thought you were about sixteen by the way you talked about "going to get laid" in one of your posts on the "Bushs' Brain thread. I clearly overshot your maturity level by about 3 years. So, you think they should saw John Kerrys head off. Yeah you are a real patriot. You sick fuck. I know you are stupid, I didn't think you were really dumb enough to threaten a presidential candidate in a public forum.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 6:04 p.m. CST

    canibal NUN is a PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHY CONSERVATIVES SHOULDN'T

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Sorry I posted this in the other thread but the degenerate shithead ran off before I could hit him with this written assault Your simple assesment of the situation in the middle east is pretty sad. Yes, there are a number of people in the middle east who are inethical, maniacal zealots, and I have no confusion as to whether those particular people, who pervert thier faith and lower themselves to vicious murder deserve to be hunted down, they do. I do not however appreciate your generalization that all muslims in the region believe in "sawing off americans heads". The ones who are partaking in these practices would not be doing so, had Bush not invaded in the first place. They do not want us there. There was not significant terrrorist activity in Iraq UNTIL we stormed in. The muslims I was talking about were those who are moderate peaceful people who just want to make sure that their children aren't killed by frag grenades on the way to school. I was making references to the fact that we have either neglected or USED that part of the world for the better part of our history and I think it's a little shallow to surmise that all muslims are murderous terrorists. I believe that much more can be accomplished by demonstrating a more intelligent outlook in our foreign policy and in trying to form a dialogue that can end the violence. If that means we have to do without iraqi oil, I am prepared to pay that price. Terrorists don't just spring out of the ground, they are created by opression and occupation. I am not so naive as to believe that these fundamentalist extremists can be reasoned with. They should most certainly be eradicated (with black ops, not airstrikes and mortars). I am no hippie. I just don't make racist generalizations about the entire populace. Most of those people are just waiting for thier lives to get back to normal. So you should really consider your words if you don't want to be percieved as a bigot. I am really amused by your O'reilly-esque rants though. I fear you will suffer a coronary during one however. Relentless agression and premature outbursts...Security issues, etc. It reminds me far too much of certain other figures in history. Ceasar, Napolean,Herr Adolph. Yep that maniacal hatred for any viewpoint but your own.... You don't have to have a Psychiatry degree for this one...you behavior displays your psychosis in intricate detail. Regardless, this is a democracy, and the last time I checked everyone gets a say. Who do you think you are? You speak of treason, you would know. Your precious leader had no problem commiting it. Lying to the american people is treason. But people like you do it so often I'm not sure you're even consious of it anymore. No, no one want's to email your pathetec sad self... It's so much more amusing to laugh at your ridiculous antics in public. The toxicity of the venom in your blood is just something to behold. You're IT buddy. You are the reason they hate us. The whole self centered, violent lot of you. The arrogance, the complete disregard for the rest of the world. Suprisingly I have not resorted to name calling as you chose to do so freely. I guess I just can't find a word fitting enough. Sad comes to mind... you are definitely a sad empty person. I genuinely feel sorry for you. Anyone who is that angry must have had a really messed up life. I don't think that covers it though. Do yourself a favor. Make a friend. You need to get a different outlook on life if you devalue everyone who doesn't think like you like that. you are destined to lead a pretty hollow existance with that kind of deluded anger. Paranoia seems to be a prevelant characteristic in you as well. Well good luck with that whole insane republican thing. Just stay away from the codine or you'll wind up like Limbaugh.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 6:06 p.m. CST

    To all my liberal and dem brothers-in-arms

    by Dr Farragammo

    First off I wanted to give a shout out to scytheluna for backing me up on the bush's brain board. And to all those out there who really know what's going on , let's keep it up. Don't you love how crazy we're making these Bush Zombies? Living in Texas and being a liberal isn't easy , but it has made twice as determined and steadfast as ever. Dealing with idiots is a daily crusade in the Lone Star State, and I've got the bruised knuckles and busted lips to prove it. So just realize we're not all alike in the the southwest, the heartland, and the bible belt. we're just disportionately surrounded by people who were born with their head pemanently up their ass. Hey scytheoluna and tdibble. you know what's scary? The other side get as completely apeshit and angry as we do, that we don't see it their way. That's why we'll never convince them. But if & when the draft comes back (and to those who say NO WAY, there are two bills on the table, that have yet to be signed, drawn up this year. I've heard democrats & republicans comment on this) we'll suddenly see the majority of americans see this was as unjust and crazy as we do. the average republican will not let their son & daughter fight in this war, but they're all to eager to let some other kid die for it. I think sadly, that a draft may be the only way to bring this administration to it's knees, and effectively disconbobulate the republican party, much like Vietnam did the democratic party. It is pathetic that it may have to come to pass to prove these fools wrong. Let's hope he loses so we don't have to go that far.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 6:17 p.m. CST

    tdibble1

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    I mirror your comments about Kerry's 'Nam service. You're right it shouldn't be an issue. I am not voting for him because he fought in a bullshit war 30 years ago, I am voting for him because he didn't start a bullshit war last year. Bush did. All of this peripheral bullshit is only meant to distract us from the real issues. The economy, the environment, education: these are the issues that Bush doesn't talk about because he doesn't have a plan that doesn't involve fist fucking the american people with no lube. All he has is the deluded idea that this war is going swimmingly. If he could read his daily briefs, he would know that we are getting massacred. I personally would like to elect a president who IS literate, and who is capable of pronouncing the word nuclear properly.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:02 p.m. CST

    I'll call and raise you cannibalcunt

    by Dr Farragammo

    Ah, there comes cannibal nun all fired up where no place to go. The reason I questioned your sexuality is because you seem so desperate to prove it. You have the diatribes and views of one who is seriously repressed and its reflected in your obsession with money and power, and getting some. You obviously are so bowled over by the American Pig view of the world that you would be happy to bend over as well. I'm sure that being this way had made you prejudiced and terriified of gays and their right to be married, if only because, you can't accept it in yourself.The fact that you added race(which I never indicated)income (which I mentioned to prove that having tons of money or barely any money, has no bearing on one's greed and ignorance, but the obsession with money and superiority is the sickness that perpetuates that ignorance and further closes off any sense of empathy or wanting to help your felow man. By this I mean, (A)if your richer than him, you lord over your wealth , caring only for yourself and not helping the greater good, or (B) your so poor that you either fight and kill another over a meal or a wallet, because you have lost any dignity or purpose due to a ecnonomy that can't help sustain every citizen, or you rob someone with more $, thereby ruining your life and theirs . I know this concept will skip between your ears in a nanosecond, thereby proving you my point that YOU DONT GET THE BIG PICTURE . And then of course for anyone to disagree with you, we deserve our heads cut off. That view shows you don't understand anything about the freedom of speech and it's tanatamount importance to maintaining our democracy. So Bitchtits, I accept your plane ticket, as long as you join me. We'll see who makes it to the far side of the world, and who would have wished he had stayed. Because this weak minded liberal (as you put it) will beat the complete shit out of your flabby pig fuck carcass. Come down to texas pussy, and put up or shut up, I'll liberate you from your sickly state and give you a new view of southern hospitality.Maybe I'll pound some sense into that rush limbaugh sized head you have and you'll see the light, AFTER YOU GET THRU CRYING LIKE A BITCH. Dr Farragammo, OUT, Cannibal Nun, OUTED.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:14 p.m. CST

    Nun's got a bad Habit.....of having no point.

    by Dr Farragammo

    And now the truth, CannibalNun, doesn't even have a coherent point of view, he just likes to start shit, and he goes crazed because he doesn't have the stones or a plan to finish it, much like our current admin. Dear God your poor parents must be embarrassed to have dropped such a wretched little fuck on this world. Too bad your parents didn't feel the same way about abortion as you do.The best argument for upholding Roe vs Wade, would be creating a time machine and finishing the job. You the social darwinist should appreciate that type of thinking.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:19 p.m. CST

    Nun Out. What? do you think you are a thug now?

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Yes, you keep talking about sending us to Iraq. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. We think YOU SHOULD GO TO IRAQ because you are the one naive enough to trust Bush. The rest of us have our eyes open and aren't stupid enough to get involved with that mess. Cowardice has nothing to do with it. We just know this war was not justified. Oh and I'm not sure what you were referring to but no one gives a shit about your race or sexual preference. It's your deluded perception of the world, and your complete lack of compassion for anyone other than your own self centred ass. You keep making references to my comment about the muslims being our "brothers". As I said in my previous response to this, you should put it in context if you insist on quoting it repeatedly. Remember right after 9/11? Americans wanted to know why this had happened to us and what we had done to deserve it. Well, that answer can be found in our foreign policy. Our government trained the taliban to kill russians and armed them to the teeth. When we were finished using them we left them to thier own devices and abandoned the people of afghanistan. Our government also supplied arms to Iraq, and Saddam Hussien during the Reagan Administration. You people deify him for some reason. Maybe he was so "optimistic" because he didn't have a fucking clue. So, these terrorists are bad people no one questions that. They are angry at the U.S. government and they took it out on the people. That was wrong, and I believe they deserve to be hunted down. However I believe that our government bears some of the responsibility for what happened 3 years ago, in part because WE HELPED CREATE THE MONSTERS WHO DID IT, in part because we are peas and carrots with SAUDI ARABIA THE FUCKING COUNTRY THAT THE 9/11 HIGHJACKERS CAME FROM, and because Ceasar couldn't be bothered to READ A FUCKING MEMO. Oh yeah I blame the idiots who can't see that the way we fought wars 20 years ago doesn't make sense today. Cluster bombs and civillian casualties will not only make things worse with the people of the world, IT GUARANTEES THAT WE ARE CREATING MORE TERRORISTS THAN WE ARE ELIMINATING. Conventional warfare is dead. If Bush hadn't proclaimed to the war that we wanted Osama Bin Laden "dead or alive" we might have actually had a shot at catching the bastard. But no, he had to shoot his mouth off and impress everyone for the cameras. Too bad it was just a half hearted prequel to the main event Operation impending apocolypse. As for my comment about "Muslim Brothers" I was referring to the fact that when America was licking it's wounds and looking for leadership, our president told us to go shopping. He was concerned about his already failed economic policy and that he was about to launch his perpetual war on everybody. What he should have done is asked the american people to reach out to the Muslim community and our Muslim brothers in the world to try to determine where the disconnect between our two civilizations was and what could be done to end the anger and hate that caused all of this. You don't seem to be able to understand that these people didn't just arbitrarily decide to hate americans. Their hatred is misguided, yes, but it is hard for them to differentiate between the american people and the american government and military forces. Just as your hatred for them is misguided in that you can't seem to seperate the maniacal mask wearing murderous Muslims from the vastly larger majority of people there who just want to live thier lives and who wish to god we would just leave them alone. Your ignorance has made you a hateful, violent bigoted person. I don't see why you are so determined to share these qualities with others. You should be confined.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:33 p.m. CST

    It looks like Naomi Watts "hearts" John Kerry, doesn't it...

    by CountryBoy

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:34 p.m. CST

    madoo14

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    I agree with a lot of what you have to say, one thing though doesn't quite work. As far as convincing the Iraqis to adopt our way of life, this could prove problematic. These people are glad Saddam is gone, but freedom wasn't the priority. For the majority of Muslims in that part of the world freedom comes in the next life. This life is supposed to be difficult to test thier faith. They don't necessarily want Mcdonalds and Coke, and Paris Hilton, and all of the other garbage that comes with our brand of freedom. This is what our president doesn't realize. Western influence is something most of these folks just don't want. As far as that end of the problem, there is no easy soloution. The insurgents are used to this iron fisted misogynistic lifestyle. They are zealots who interperet thier faith in a way that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the FOX network or Madonna. Our way of life seems vulgar and blasphemous to many of them.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:42 p.m. CST

    and the Nun has no point again. Oh and no attention span

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    You talk shit, yet you cannot seem to answer any of the arguments leveled at you. And no, my mommy didn't pay for me to go to college when I was 18. You were obviously handed everything in life as is illustrated in your arrogant comments. "Sweat class". You condescending fuck. Yeah, I work for a living. Of course my wife is halfway to her masters, and has already been accepted into a P.H.D. program, so you can pretty much bet I will be edu-macated as soon as I am through putting her through school. And if you want to make comments about grammar you can go ahead and make fun of the fact that I have a touch of dyslexia inherited from my father who IS serving in the military. So fuck you. Oh and I am so sorry I write posts that are too much for your infantile attention span. Fuckwit. "I will have Power". do you have any idea how ridiculous you are. I may have been premature in saying you should be confined. I would love to just deport your hateful ignorant ass.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 7:54 p.m. CST

    Oh and in response to your pathetic threats

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    How very...typical pathetic but typical of you. I wouldn't want to soil my boots by kicking your teeth in, and I know I could never get the stink off of my blade. Just because I am progressive and I think violence is what people do when they are too stupid to solve a problem, doesn't mean I am someone to be fucking with. So stop the male posturing. No one is impressed or intimidated by your juvenile ass.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:02 p.m. CST

    OOhh, So an Ivy League education( laugh) couldn't teach you not

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Yeah, so you are obviously an insensitive prick. Yeah, I am sure you get laid all the time. And you can keep your fucking H2 you treasonous fuck. My wife actually quit her job as a MODEL (and no, unlike you I have no need to imbellish) to go to school. Go ahead and call me a retard, it doesn't phase me because I know you are a deluded sad individual who is only lashing out with verbal attacks. Ivy League my ass. If you don't have the attention span for two paragraphs you have to be REALLY high if you expect anyone to believe you are capable of Ivy League study. You are a fucking Joke.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:04 p.m. CST

    Cannibal_Nun ...

    by tdibble1

    "You're my social inferior in all ways---and I came from nothing, worked my way into the Ivy League, and have an MBA and 2 bachelors degrees---so when I say you're an inferior, I mean that in a Nietzschean sense (look it up, take your time, I'm sure it will tax your bean to the utmost just to figure out the reference)." ... Thereby proving that the dim bagger at Walmart is your social superior ... What a small penis you must have to make up for!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:09 p.m. CST

    no actually I am laughing with my beautiful wife about how ignor

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    And calling me a retard makes YOU look like an ignorant asshole. Making fun of a genetic defect, wow, you are sooo above me. I'm sure your flawless ass has never had to use spell-check. Seriously for someone who claims to be such a successful corporate fuckwad, you sure don't care about your image. You have also declared the painfully obvious fact that you are here simply to start shit. You don't have a valid point, and when you try to make one we then dismantle it with arguments that you don't have the knowledge or patience to respond to. Once again Ivy League my ass.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:26 p.m. CST

    Cannibal Nuns sweat class comment

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    No actually we drive a 2003 chevy cavalier. I know it's a sensible car, and it doesn't fund a whole Saudi village with it's gas milage, but I will take it over your stupid H2 civillian issue prick replacement any day. Oh, and actually I don't work in manual labour. So once again you can take that ignorant assertion and stick it in your ass. I have worked low paying high stress jobs before and unlike some insensitive arrogant cocks I actually sympathize with people who aren't doing as well as I am Actually, I am a supervisor at a callcentre for Amnesty International, the ASPCA, World Wildlife Fund, and lots of other so called liberal shit. You know things that actually matter not just shiny objects that distract you from life. So you can keep your deluded sad, quest for material wealth,and I will take comfort in knowing you will die a sad lonely person and I hope your gleaming phallic troop transport can make it to your funeral, because no one else will care.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:37 p.m. CST

    Still no responses to any of my actual points though, just rampa

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    He must be typing from his private plane as we speak... I bet he's one of those guys who bought a cell phone and a suit so he could walk around and look like people actually wanted to talk to him...He must be on an "important call" as we speak. Either that or he is trying to formulate an intelligent response and can't quite manage it.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 8:48 p.m. CST

    So full of it

    by Dr Farragammo

    Man, Cannibal you just keep digging a hole. You castigate Scythe and I for our misspellings and incorrect punctuation, and then you do it in the very sentence you chide us with! "(both of you have the literary abilities of an epileptic autistic dwarf): 1) Learn the difference between its/it's before you all anyone else a fool---it's evident you, like most liberal cunts, can't master even the easiest English grammatical construction;" I guess I'll ALL you a fool ALL I want.hahahahaha. And now after hearing your incoherent and ever conflcting rant I know you are a abysmal failure at all you do, for someone who was a millionaire, Harvard grad, yadda yadda etc, would have much better articulation of their points. You have to have a core philosophy of some kind to become a major success , esp. at such a young age. You've never been laid, you've never been rich and you've probably never been anything other than laughed at or hated because you bring out the worst in people. I'd feel sorry for you if I didn't want to smash your face in first! hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... "sigh"

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 9:09 p.m. CST

    "Fuck you people, you use the word liberal like it's an insult."

    by Triumph poops!

    Actually we just use "Liberal" because it's obviously far easier to type one word instead of what it really means in full form, which would be "Cluelessly moronic indecisive class warfare-inspired financially jealous morally bankrupt social engineering sexually ambiguous asslicking douchebags." So just writing "liberal" saves us a lot of wear and tear on the typing fingers...

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 9:46 p.m. CST

    Yeah, well, you have proven my point entirely

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    You are a "real american" aren't you. YOU ARE THE REASON THAT THOSE SO CALLED BARBARIANS HATE US. You cannot seriously expect me to think you are intelligent. You are a racist, and an elitist. If you read my post you would see that I clearly differentiated between the terrorists and the civilians. To you they are all the same. This kind of outlook is ignorant and offensive. So in your callow useless existence, I hope that you can see that if people like you are running the show you can expect a lot more nations to start expressing their distaste for our actions. So enjoy up there in your imaginary ivory tower while it lasts. You believe in tyrannical capitalism, not democracy. You and your ilk are the ones responsible for nearly everything wrong with this country because you only believe in material bullshit. So don't try to come off as some kind of patriot, you are just a selfish waste of human filth. Oh and as far as evading my points goes, it isn't because you are above me (no matter how many bullshit auto brandnames you can drop) it's because you have nothing to offer. Anyone can make shit up to impress people on the internet it only works on stupid people. And no I am not sweating because your ignorance has no real effect on me. Your assumptions about me are laughable in that they are so far off. More than anything I feel sorry for you because you are a hostile, self centred, materialistic person with a narrow mind and a distorted view of the world. It isn't a wonder that you don't have any respect for anyone else. The way you try to portray yourself as some kind of player indicates that you obviously have security issues. So you enjoy your shiny penis car (which you don't have), and whatever whore you are fucking this week(which would be no-one), and enjoy your sad meaningless life. If money,cars, and meaningless stuff makes you happy you are an simpleton, and you can look forward to V.D. from fucking one whore too many. Oh and by the way, If you worked your way through school and worked for all of your wealth (that you don't have) why do you look down on others who are just trying to do the same. I think you should look up the word hypocrite.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 9:57 p.m. CST

    We don't telemarket douchebag, I work for NFP's (so we aren't ma

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    So what's the name of this imaginary company YOU work for? What is your exact position and salary? What kind of bullshit product or service is your sad little life wrapped up in? If you're going to talk big whip it out, or shut the fuck up, Go on we'll all wait while you look a company name up and make up a figure. You don't seem to get the fact that everyone knows you are full of shit. No one is impressed with you, or your non existant wealth. You don't have a point and you are just a hostile ass, who doesn't have anything better to do that start shit with people. No one is necessarily angry with you, because we all know you are trying to bait us. We just think you are stupid.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 10:18 p.m. CST

    I have more, therefore I am better.

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    No you are just greedier. Revoloutions get started with attitudes like that, and your slaves will eventually revolt. Liberals, minorities, anyone who is being screwed by people like you. The polarization of our nation is an indicator that this is beginning. So yeah you go ahead and use your conveniant labels. So I am a liberal. I am not however, indecisive as mr Poop (aptly named) put it. My stances on the issues are clearly defined. I don't believe in the drug war, I don't believe in allowing our corporations to use what america has to offer, only to keep offshore bank accounts and move their operations overseas, I don't believe in squandering natural resources, or destroying the planet. I don't believe in "america the christian" or that it's okay to use women as sex objects. I don't believe that star wars missle defense systems will save us from carbombers and highjackers, and I think that the U.S. government should stay the fuck out of the lives of peaceful honest people. I don't think conventional warfare is a viable option in today's world, and that we have underfunded and under developed our black ops and intelligence capabilities. I am not some huggy kissy flower child. I have no problem with killing terrorists. I am just aware enough of the consequenses of these actions, and that we do ourselves a disservice every time a civillian is killed. Anyone who loved and remembers them after they are gone will remember america and hate us. Above all I believe that being a benign compassionate person is infinitely more fufilling than being a materialistic, shallow, and ultimately unfufilled shell of a person. So.....I am pretty clear on where I stand on all of the issues, and it's too bad that the U.S. can't provide a candidate who can say the same. Regardless, Bush is nuts so he has to go. So keep your backwards assumptions to yourself POOP. and cannibal nun, well I just don't even give a fuck about you....

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 11:36 p.m. CST

    aint-it-cool-politics?

    by sanderson

    Jesus Harry. Who the fuck a has heard of this movie? the only reason you reviewed it is because it is another pussy, liberal "crockumentary." Just once, I DARE you to review a CONSERVATIVE film such as "Celsius 41.11" I DARE YOU HARRY!!!!!I DARE YOU!!!!!

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 11:39 p.m. CST

    SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS GOOD / STEM CELL RESEARCH BAD

    by bushsux

    Conservatives are good at one thing, being hypocritical. Think about it. They talk about the bible and God like they're the only people in this country who are religious and believe in God, yet they advocate things like the death penalty and war even when they are not needed. Doesn't the bible say "Thou shalt not kill"? I support the death penalty but in only the most extreme cases like with serial killers and the Oklahoma City bomber. I support war but only when it is necessary, not like this stupid shit we're involved with in Iraq. And since when did hating gay people become so important? Doesn't God love all his children? God supports Stem Cell research. God doesn't want to see people suffer from Alzheimers and paralysis.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 11:47 p.m. CST

    Who said anything about me? I don't have to live there anymore.

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I think that violence is how stupid people solve problems. I didn't say anything about approving of a violent revoloution, but as people seem to be inherrantly violent I see little likelyhood of any other eventuality. You need to check some polls that aren't from Fox News. Republicans only make up about a third of our total population, so you are physically outnumbered. Don't worry I know you would turn the police and military on the people without a second thought. It would be a massacre. However you also forget that most of the rest of the world despises our government. I don't think it would take long for other countries to support an uprising. Please don't misunderstand, I don't want this to happen, but people like you are so self centred and so uconcerned with the suffering of others that eventually people will stop putting up with it. Our country hasn't been this polarized since the last civil war, and the tempers are running hotter than ever. This is plainly indicated in the tone of the posts on this board. Honestly if cannibal nun could be bothered to charter an imaginary jet up here I'd probably forget my values for a moment and kick his treacherous ass. The point is that people are tired of being walked on, underpaid, over worked, lied to, cheated, and ignored by our government. I hope we can find a way to solve it peacefully. I despise violence. I would love to die knowing that mankind will evolve into a rational civil species and that I could rest peacefully knowing that the inequities of the world would be remedied. But they won't as long as self serving gluttons like yourselves suck the soul out of our society. Corporate interests and lobbyists have stolen our democracy and you are wrong to support a system that doesn't have the interests of ALL OF THE PEOPLE at heart. So you have destroyed the america I knew and loved. You refuse to see any viewpoint but your own and you are aggressive and hostile. This is why the people will eventually find a way to dethrone your ilk and why terrorists want to knock down your ivory towers. It isn't right but this is the bed our government has made. Liberty and Justice do not prevail in our system, and we are bound to spread that misguided idealism around the globe. The rest of the world doesn't appreciate that, and the majority of americans don't either. I don't have to live there anymore,and it makes me sad to say it but it's your mess you clean it up. I now have the chance to earn a living wage, and build a future for myself because I left the states. "land of opporotunity" my ass. They haven't shipped all of thier jobs overseas to cut costs here in Canada. They haven't started any illegal wars here either. So you can scoff all you want, but you are the ones pissing everyone off, and if you ad up your numbers (roughly in the hundred millions) vs. the other few billion people on the planet, domestic and otherwise, the people who agree with your skewed world view out number you by quite a significant margin. So your macho talk of suffocating any potential uprising is a bit naive. Rome fell because it grew to fat to be effective, too arrogant a slavemaster, and too out of touch with the needs of it's people. Empires fall when they oppress thier people. Read some history, the similarities speak for themselves. Rome used that dramatic hand "over the heart" salute we teach to our kids for the pledge of allegience. And our nation is nothing if not fat and arrogant. So you just keep sucking the life out of our country, and I will be watching on the news here, (which is remarkably objective, and actually is "fair and balanced") and hoping that my homeland doesn't fall apart at the seams.

  • Sept. 27, 2004, 11:54 p.m. CST

    sorry the grammar was a little off in that last one that was sup

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    It just makes me sad. I love my country I just can't stand to live there right now. My wife wants to go into politics so perhaps when she finishes school we can move back and find a way to undermine you assholes and get our democracy back. Then I won't have to be afraid to tell people that I'm american anymore. If we could just start living up to our own hype america could be the greatest country in the world. But you guys just won't let it happen.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 12:14 a.m. CST

    Never Shut Up

    by Dr Farragammo

    scytheofluna that's why we keep fighting and never shut up. They can dish it out but they can't take it, and their whole philosophy is CONSUME,whether it's fear,food, $, oil.or other countries resources. They have no logic in their debate, and base everything on how they feel. That's why you get Dubya in the flight suit, Flags sticking out of peoples assholes, stupid sentimentality disquised as political philosophy. They always say we're peaceniks, and pussies, but they're the ones who can't disconnect their poor little feelings from their fucking intellect. That's why they make such disastrous decisions. they think God is on their side when they know nothing about God. They think that we own the world when we share it. They think the rest of the world should love us unconditionally because we're the best country ever! We are a GREAT country, but there is room for improvement, and if things don't change we will be a SHIT country that will bear no resemblance to the founding father's vision. They have no clue how much they resemble the people they hate. Hey let's split the country in 2 again, the dumbfucks can live down here in the south, and I'll move up to the north, and I won't shed a fucking tear.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 12:21 a.m. CST

    another observation

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    It also disturbs me greatly that the majority of conservatives would rather live in a feudal system, because that's what you have turned our democracy. I can just here the propaganda machine as they take that "reichstag tone" "Do not dissent! Any opposition to the administration will be viewed as treason, line up serfs, you don't think those tax breaks for the richest 2 percent pay for themselves do you?" Yeah, it's a good thing we value liberty so much. Liberties have certainly been taken with the interpretation of our constitution, and with our bill of rights. You have sold us out, every one of you who is stupid enough to think that they don't recruit two terrorists for every one we kill, and that killing them won't really solve anything. These guys aren't afraid to die and they think they will be ass deep in virgin pussy in the next life if they die a martyr. You don't have any understanding of our enemy and no understanding of your own people. This is why we are doomed to failure. Because we have learned nothing. Our manifest destiny resulted in us all but wiping out the people who lived in these lands before us, and we learned nothing. We have only fought two just wars since then World Wars I and II, and we wouldn't have appeared in the sequel if Japan hadn't bombed us. We would have selfishly let the axis stretch it's talons across the globe and abandoned our allies to thier fate. So what is it that makes us better than everyone else? Money? Power? Larger more powerful nuclear cocks? No it is supposed to be the quality of our ethics. We have failed to maintain our own standards for justice, and human rights at nearly every turn. And people like you who want to live in opulence and ignore the worlds problems doom us to repeat past mistakes again.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 12:36 a.m. CST

    Yeah, friends in the FBI, you are the one who wants to "saw Kerr

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    And the concept of context seems to be just as unfamiliar to you as sarcasm. I repeated several times that I do not wish for this to happen and that I am personally a pacifist, so what exact treason am I guilty of, other than thinking that our leadership is dooming our country to financial collapse and social disorder and decay., I also noted that the people in any society will not tolerate oppression and revoloution whether it be violent or not is inevitable in any society that treats its citizens in such a way. Personally I hope with every fibre of my being that people can find a way to work things out using their voices and the right to vote. I also reiterated several times that I personally abhor violence and that I don't believe it solves anything. So if your imaginary friends in the FBI want to read my posts, they can have at it. I merely illustrated the state of relations between the right and the left. And I also made clear the kinds of catastrophic consequenses that such an uprising would result in. So fuck you once again you ignorant fool. You seem to see the world in soundbytes. You take one part of a sentence and spin it completely out of context. And if you think I am making up that the rest of the world hates us you should stop denying it and start trying to figure out why. At this point you people have proven that you will not be swayed, or reasoned with, If america cannot find a way to co exist with itself. Maybe we should just all figure out which states are red, and which are blue and move accordingly. Then we won't have to solve our differences because we can just ignore each other.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 12:51 a.m. CST

    So now you have FBI connections, the lies just don't stop do the

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Yes, I am shaking... First of all, the post is right there on the web, so any intelligent agent in counter terrorism could read it and see that I am just another peace loving liberal who is afraid of the direction that our country is headed in. Pacifists don't start violent uprisings. They write blogs. If they were going to prosecute every person who has expressed this fear or displeasure with government policy, they would have to imprison a good chunk of our populace. They call that totalitarianism, and that's what we accused Saddam of in case you didn't know. And you can just give up on the grammar reprimands. I don't care, I am not planning on publishing any of this so I am not concerned with minor grammar issues. It's almost 1 in the morning. The fact that you keep bringing them up is just another shining example of what an asshole you are. I love my country and I believe that you people are trying to destroy it. I don't have to like it. I am sure as hell not just going to sit back and let you tear our nation apart without expressing my distaste. Your feudal view of things can only end in disaster. You can try to convoloute that any way you want, but dissent is the core of democracy. People will eventually tire of being walked on, and some kind of change, AND LET ME BE PERFECTLY CLEAR AND EXPLAIN IT IN PLAIN LANGUAGE THAT I HOPE THAT THE SOLOUTION CAN BE FOUND IN PEACEFUL DIALOUGE. There, you shouldn't have any confusion as to my position now.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 1:32 a.m. CST

    This gets more comical by the minute

    by Dr Farragammo

    FBI?hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, like Scythe says, please show them your threat to Kerry, I'm sure that will make you a reliable source. You should be the subject. Your a pathological liar, and possibly schizoid.You dumb fuck. "Fagarrammo". Good one. "Degree in Dipshittery." Whoa! Are you sure I'm the one who should be writing for Leno? His lame tired ass comedy is much more up your alley. Actually you'd be better off writing for Dennis Miller. His routine is so bad they have to PAY an audience to watch his tired ass ahit. You'll fit like a glove. In fact I'll bet you your whole fortune that your a bald faced liar on everything you say. So when do I get my $20 , stack of old crusty Blueboys, and your collection of minirubbers that crumble to dust on contact? HAHAHAHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You are a riot shitdick. You wanna keep it up? I can outlast you till the end of days fucker, like your hero says BRING IT ON. But really I'd like to carry on this conversation in person. Maybe your millionaire ass can afford a flight to Dallas, and pain pills for the flight home? hahahahaha. Just like you won't go fight this war you believe in, you certainly won't meet someone who will call you on your shit. Someone who makes fun of dyselxia, sympathizes with Nazi's, has no political belief system that is coherent, and threatens a poltitcians life is a barely sentient piece of shit. You don't even realize how similar you sound to the islamic nutjobs in your rhetoric. I hate terrorists too, and right now you fit their profile.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 1:45 a.m. CST

    Someone thinks this is Little Green Footballs. Gag!

    by truthseekr1488

    I was off-handedly banned from that asshat warblog twice for posting questions they didn't want to answer. No cussing, no calls for mass murder, just a little too sophisticated for the typical Repug nazis. Meanwhile posts by regulars comparing Arabs to pigs and calling for the nuking of Falluja are allowed to remain and are even praised. Go ahead, just try to exercise free speech ... www.littlegreenfootballs.com.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 2:19 a.m. CST

    Since the attacks of 9/11, President Bush has kept us safe in th

    by AntoniusBloc

    President Bush has kept us safe. After 9/11 many were making predictions of numerous terrorist attacks taking place in the United States, comparable to the terrorism that has spread like a cancer in Europe, Asia, and of course, Israel. Yet, since 9/11/2001 we have yet to have the predicted terrorist attacks in the United States. Why? Because of the decisions and leadership of President Bush. Even the badly timed 9/11 commission concludes in its report that we are safer, although, obviously, not yet completely safe. But who, including the experts, would have predicted that there would be no attacks in the U.S., not even a lone suicide bomber? The credit goes to the leadership of President Bush for keeping us safe, so far. His strategy must not be interrupted. In order to have any hope of safety in this country, President Bush must remain in office. Make no mistake about it, the war in Iraq is a major part of the strategy that has kept us safe. The terrorists who would have been murdering innocents here are now drawn to Iraq. The fact that Iraq has become a magnet for terrorists is a good thing. President Bush has brilliantly moved the battlefield away from the homeland. Despite the lies of Michael Moore and John Kerry, Iraq was always a haven and training ground for terrorists, including Al queada, a fact also confirmed by the 9/11 commission(no, it could not confirm specific cooperation for 9/11, in terms of evidence, but they found plenty of evidence of cooperation and communication). Long before 9/11, Saddam Hussein was openly funding Palestinian suicide bombers, paying families to turn their children into suicidal tools of murder. Moore put a negative spin on President Bush challenging the terrorists to "Bring it on" in the early stages of the Iraq war, but this was a brilliant move to draw the battle away from the United States, and allow our brave and heroic military to sacrifice and fight the terrorists in their own backyard, and eliminate them before they ever could reach our shores. Make no mistake, the last thing the terrorists want is a free and prosperous Iraq, based on democratic ideals of individual liberty and a free market, because once a people taste just a little of freedom and prosperity, they are less likely to become desperate and brainwashed suicide bombers who are influenced by those who have no sincere interest in religion but use fundamentalist religion as a tool to hold political power and influence, and expand that power. The true leaders of these terrorist groups do NOT have any sincere belief in the Muslim religion any more than Hitler sincerely believed the Germans were a superior race. They use religion, as Hitler used patriotism, as a tool for control,deception, and slavery of the will. Such tools are more effective against a desperate people who live in the dark ages and aren't allowed to freely participate in the dealings of the rest of the free world. Don't be fooled by those who call this a religious war. This is freedom versus slavery; liberty versus oppression. That is why the terrorists fear a free Iraq, because once freedom spreads, the people will fight for themselves to keep it. Liberals who say the Iraqi's can't handle freedom, and were better under Saddam are racists. Our founding fathers understood that liberty and freedom is a Natural Right, granted by the ultimate authority who created Nature, and is deserved by all people, no matter what race or religion. To portray an enslaved Iraq as some kind of utopia as Moore does is deception. To imply that Iraqi's are better off as slaves, and can't handle freedom, is racist. Defeating Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do on many levels, including being vital in the success of the war on terror and keeping us safe here at home in the U.S.,. President Bush has made us safer and liberated Iraq thanks to his leadership, despite the deception of our so-called "allies". Moore puts forward his own deception by claiming that we are less safe because President Bush "alienated" our allies, like France, Germany, and Russia. The fact is, these "allies" along with the United Nations were helping Saddam Hussein oppress his people.. Now , with the facts of the oil for food scandal coming out, we realized that the Iraqi people not only had Saddam's oppressive rule to deal with, but countries such as France, Germany, and Russia, and the entire United Nations was against them, and keeping them down. These are not the allies we need to be relying on to keep our country safe. These so called allies who are sympathetic and appease terrorists and terrorist nations, also would keep a people enslaved to keep their financial interests and not have their corruption revealed. Don't fall for the rhetoric that we would be safer with these corrupt governments on our side. Thank God for a true leader like President Bush. No one believed President Reagan could defeat communism in the same way no one believes we can win the war on terrorism. Thanks to the leadership of President Bush, the people of Iraq can now begin to overcome the damage of the oppressive rule of Saddam. Thanks to the leadership of President Bush, the Iraqi people can now overcome the corruption of our so called

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 2:47 a.m. CST

    You ignore the Bigger problems

    by Dr Farragammo

    wow antonius, you certainly have been programmed. Honestly, some days I wish I was like you because I wouldn't have this burden on my back, this albatross around my neck, what this is that thing called? Oh yeah a conscience , a dissenting point of view, the ability to see things other than in black and white terms, complex decision making, a sense that there is more than just me in this universe, a respect for the environment, the reality that you can't win a war on a word. You guys go on and on about terrorism, that you seem to miss a few things : (1) a faltering economy escalates crime & violence, by economic stress which translates into theft, spousal abuse, homicide , suicide, etc. Your so worried about terrorists when you should be afraid of the guy next door who'se lost his job, his wife has left him and he like those you fear, has nothing to lose. (2) the environmental laws that are being broken by this president are poisoining our air ,water and our food. You'll be dying on the inside without ever having to worry about a terrorist attack. Kids are being born with autism at a alarming rate. One theory is that there is too much mercury in our fish. Dr's have now issued a moratorium o how much fish an expectant mother can eat to prevent autism and birth defects!! Does that not concern you fools? (3) We're buddies with Saudi Arabia, where almost all the terrorists who attack us are from. But we do business with them so we don't press them for releasing their terrorists. there are more terrorists in Saudi Arabia than in Iraq, but you can't figure that out. Osama.remember him? Why haven't we finished the war in Afghanistan , where he's at, instead a place that posed no threat to us. (4) North Korea. HELLFUCKINGOOOO! They have nuclear capability. They shot a empty aluminum tube into Alaska last year. They had a mushroom cloud over their country LAST WEEK. They are the biggest threat to us in the free world. Explain why that isn't a bigger priority. You can't get the fact that Bush & Cheney have no economic interest in N. Korea, so they gamble with our lives in the process. If any of you can explain how we are safer by ignoring ANY OF WHAT I HAVE MENTIONED , in a way that makes sense, I'd love to hear it. But you can't, because your in denial that we are safe, and that Iraq is the cornerstone of our troubles. AND I AM so fucking sick of being told that questioning our president is UNPATRIOTIC. If that's the case than you should all be declared treasonous for your attacks on Clinton. Hypocrites. Bush has lied repeatedly under oath and he hasn't been impeached. Clinton has an affair, and your too culturally immature to handle it. It was okay for Gingrich and Barr to fuck around on their wives (gingrich telling his wife of the affair while she was confined to a hospital bed, a real class act) yet those sniveling shitheels saw it differently for Slick Willie. You guys will never learn that the rules aren't different when they apply to you. So if you respond to this, answer all of my questions, that is all.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 3:28 a.m. CST

    by Thing-Fish

    And speaking of flip-flopping, why EXACTLY did between 12943 and 14997 Iraqi civillians have to die? www.iraqbodycount.net, 11/29/04. _______ Why did these people have to die? ________ Let's always remember the words of Powell, "The question simply is: has Saddam Hussein made a strategic, political decision to comply with the United Nations Security Council resolutions (and) get ridof his WMDs? That's it in a nutshell... That's the question. There is no other question." Iraq "was being attacked because it had violated its international obligations under its 1991 surrender agreement, which required the disclosure and disarmament of its dangerous weapons" (New York Times, 3/6/2003). ___________ Yes, that's it. Whatever you say, people, ANYTHING is better than being governed by a bunch of MASS MURDERERS- as is the case now.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 4:40 a.m. CST

    Bushsux: "God supports Stem Cell research. God doesn't want to s

    by Triumph poops!

    Uh...then why did he create such things and put them into the world in the first place? And assuming you believe in God (and believe he is the Creator of all) what makes you think he wants his handiwork or his master plan for particular things or the destinies of particular people screwed with? Or to have things he might have purposely created and set here removed? And those debates aside, I feel really safe saying you're fucking crazy if you think God would want fertiziled embryos, the very formation and genesis of a human being and a soul, diced and sliced up for experimentation...

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 9:31 a.m. CST

    Dr. Farragammo, a repsponce to you.....

    by ROMANWEB

    I know this is long, but it's the only way to properly respond... 1) A Faultering Economy? In Feb., this country had the highest growth rate in 20 years! The U.S. unemployment rate in August fell 0.1 percentage point from the previous month to 5.4 percent, with the U.S. economy creating 144,000 jobs in the nonfarm sector, the Labor Department stated. The figures were almost in line with market predictions of a 5.5( as opposed to Clintons 5.4 in the booming 90

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 9:47 a.m. CST

    Yeah, Dr F the polite yet misguided Antonius Blockehead is once

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    At least he is trying to spread his right wing propaganda in a politics-related thread for once instead of jumping into the "Indiana Jones 4" thread and spreading lies at random.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 9:51 a.m. CST

    YOU ACTUALLY THINK WE ARE SAFER?

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Seriously, you can't be that stupid. Iraqis don't want us there. They don't care about freedom because thier freedom comes in the next life. This life is supposed to be difficult to test their faith. You don't know anything about the people of Iraq, so stop buying the bullshit about liberating them. What about the thousands we have "liberated" from their lives?

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 10:19 a.m. CST

    Damn, what a bunch of freaks

    by Larry Jay

    Thats all of you. Each and every one of you fuckers, liberal and neo-con alike needs to check yourself into an institution, real fucking quick. This has become the problem. NO ONE IN AMERICA WANTS TO FIND COMMON GROUND. You're spending so much time pissing on each other that you've forgotten WHO the enemy is. Practically makes me ashamed that I spent 20 years of my life defending your sorry asses. VIOLENCE IS THE FIRST REFUGE OF THE INCOMPETENT.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 10:24 a.m. CST

    My favorite scene from this movie:

    by The Skeptical

    ...is when the VC plays back John Kerry's testimony to the POW's being held in Vietnam. The wires are taped unto the screaming soldier, and the VC commander yells "Confess to these war-crimes!" while playing the John Kerry testimony tapes. And then the US soldierreaches up with his legs and stangles the VC commander. He then rips himself free, ties a red bandana around his head, and starts blowing shit up. That's my favorite scene.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 11:41 a.m. CST

    WOW!

    by Super Person

    Isn't it astonishing we live in a time when Americans have SO MUCH HATE for one another? It takes me back to the halcyon days of the Civil War.. maybe eventually we'll have another Civil War, Conservatives vs. Liberals, with everyone slaughtering each other and eating their entrails, laughing maniacally with the blood and gore of their ideological opponents drooling from their slavering lips... Don't get me wrong, everyone has their position and it does unfortunately polarize down to these two ideologies, but jesus, are the days of civil discourse really over? Do we really have to resort to calling the other side "treasonous" and threatening imprisonment or violent death for one's beliefs? Have we really come so far from the Revolution which spawned our country... there are some of you out there who really ought to think about what it means to be an American, and be very very ashamed of yourselves...

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 1:07 p.m. CST

    From the mouths of the Fathers

    by Larry Jay

    "As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 1:22 p.m. CST

    STEM CELL RESEARCH

    by bushsux

    This is one of the most important issues of this election but you'll never hear Fox News or any conservative talk about it because they want to avoid it. Bush banned continuing stem cell research, even though scientists and doctors said it was going to eventually bring about cures for Alzheimer's and paralysis. Why did he do that? Because he wanted to appease the religious right and make sure he had their support in the 2004 election. Based on just this issue alone it's obvious why Kerry has to get elected. What if you got sick with Alzheimers? What if you got into a car accident and got paralyzed? What if you got paralyzed fighting in Iraq? Think about it an tell me why you shoul still vote for Bush.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 3:19 p.m. CST

    Bush is strong while Kerry is weak...

    by Whedon

    In regards to Kerry's many positions he will and has taken many different positions on the war in Iraq. Bush knows that we have to finish the job, he's thinking towards the future which Kerry would be wise to try. Need anymore proof Bush will win reelection, Kerry is actually starting to sound similar to some of the lunatic liberals that frequent these talkbacks. Bush will win in "04" its true, its damn true.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 5:42 p.m. CST

    In response to bushsux

    by The Skeptical

    You said: "Bush banned continuing stem cell research..." Now...that is completely untrue. Bush has not banned all stem-cell research, has not banned ANY stem-cell research, and is using fedral money to fund both adult and embryonic stem-cell research. So...are you lying, or are you just woefully misinformed?

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 6:12 p.m. CST

    Crawford Tx paper endorses kerry!!

    by Dr Farragammo

    hahahahahaha. you have to love that. here's the link : http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20040928/1328546606.htm now on to skeptical's absurd claim: Are you crazy skeptical?Bush has Banned ALL STEM CELL RESEARCH. Read any of his interviews re: the subject. Nancy Reagan pleaded with him and he brushed her off. However if he or his family or any of Cheney and the clan get sick, what do you think they will secretly fund? STEM CELL RESEARCH. My God at least support the facts if your going to question bushsux, who happens to be RIGHT. I also wanted to give a shout out to HailDaHypnoToad for putting our current political cesspool in a historic context. No one is going to have a good comeback for the quotes of our forefathers and their stance on liberalism, liberty, and in the words of a Republican, the dangers of the industrial military complex getting out of control. Pity current conservatives don't read up their elders. And finally, all those who propose to dance a jig IF King George wins (as in cheating again) in Nov. Your giddiness will be short lived. many Rep senators & reps, have issued concerns that if he winsa again, the democrats could gain majority in the ouse and senate, due to the backlash. This way back in early summer when they had several meetings documented on all the major news sites. So if that happens every thing W wants to pass will get cockblocked, so either way YOU lose.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 7:39 p.m. CST

    WOW the Libs are out in FARCE!

    by 900LBGorilla

    What a laughable den of liberal tools this site has become. I wish you guys could see how silly you look to people who know what the hell they

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 7:51 p.m. CST

    Bushsux- well you do anyway...

    by 900LBGorilla

    - Oh and Bushsux- - The economy BECAME good under Clinton When (come on you remember: A, B C

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 7:51 p.m. CST

    O H AND I FORGOT THK!!!!

    by 900LBGorilla

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 7:59 p.m. CST

    OH and I forgot THK!!!!

    by 900LBGorilla

    An added BONUS if kerry gets in! We would get the dumbest, most classless, and scary-funniest don't know if she's drunk, stoned, or just shit-crazy wild haired spaz of a first lady who suffers from Tourettes Syndrome to boot. - Talk about marrying for the money, maybe we should all feel sorry for John after all. If she were my wife, I might not remember what the hell I said last week either. ----------- The poor bastard reminds me of the guy from that old Ameritrade commercial who runs up the mansion steps to the screaming demands of his "wife" and is forced to give the old hag a footrub. e

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 9:54 p.m. CST

    Gorillas in the Pissed

    by Dr Farragammo

    Wow a 900 lb gorilla with diarrhea of the mouth , and a brain the size of a chickpea. Why are you so mad ? Like you say the republicans are in control, you guys have it all, why are you so angry? That's what cracks me up about you clowns. I know why your angry, it's because you've done it all illigetimately. You know you didn't earn any of what you've taken and every time someone brings it up it makes you feel like the shitsucking scumbags you are. A bunch of lies and false pretenses porves your unworthy. Some examples : A fake election here, some fake intelligence there, some fake memories from vets who weren't even with kerry, cheating husbands who hang clinton out to dry even though they did the same thing , calling a man who lost 3 limbs in vietnam unpatriotic, creating a series of debates so controlled because George Dumbya can't go off script, a Attorney General who lost against a dead man, Colin Powell saying 6 months before we went Iraq that they weren't a threat then changing his tune at the UN a few months later, I could go on and on and on, but that is enough rope to hang yourselves with. Sad thing is you lie so much you believe it to be true, so there's no reasoning with you. Gorilla go watch Planet of The Apes. it presents a picture of the world that your ilk is on it's way to creating. Too bad those monkeys are so far up the scale of evolution than your shit eating ass. Your an insult to gorillas, let alone mankind. But you probably don't believe in evolution so you don't understand the implications here anyway. Go eat a banana and play with your poop, and leave the poltics and sociological issues to those with opposable thumbs. bye bye now.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 10:30 p.m. CST

    I'd rather a stoned spaz of a first lady of the 'Joker' any day

    by TheGinger Twit

    Seriously, have you seen this chick ever not smile. I swear, it's scary when someone puts on a smile with no actual emotion behind it. Oh and Cannibal nun... You're a dipshit. And so is anyone who makes the claim that iraq has deflected terrorists from america and kept the fighting away from your shores. Yeah, hello fuckwits, there's 5 and a half BILLION people who aren't on your shores. Some of you yanks are fucked up!

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 11 p.m. CST

    a public debate sponsored by Harry

    by Dr Farragammo

    I just had a GREAT idea. Being that I am a hour and a 1/2 outside of harry's hometown, Austin, Tx, and Harry has regular events at the Alamo Theatres located there (a great place to catch a flick while eating good food and drinking a beer at the same time). How about all of us mortal enemies keep shouting out to Harry to let us have a public debate! Think about it, they could show clips from fahrenheit, the kerry flick, give the other side their michael moore hates america and america's heart and soul. and we could comment Mystery Science Theatre style about all the bullshit involved. All of us idealogue enemies meet face to face. Who's with me? In one corner, bushsux, scytheofluna, myself, etc, and on the other side nicole21, cannibalnun, 900lb gorilla, etc.! I'd love to have a public debate with cannibalnun! Let's do this people! The crowds will go wild! Are you listening Harry?

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 11:45 p.m. CST

    Farragammo

    by TheGinger Twit

    First point of the debate is a question by me, Why is it that pro bush/war films have to have a derogatory name calling title? Personlly, this is a TOP idea. But I'm hard pressed to believe that these 'supporters' here would actually show up, let alone even vent their anger in public to the vast MAGORITY who would tower over them. It's true. You'd have to be either paid by the government to support it, or be locked in a dungeon with your eyelide metallically grappled open in front of Fox News. I'm eager to see this 'Michael Moore hates America'. What a statement. I'm keen to see if there is substance to this thing or if these so called "counter-filmmakers" are more interested in the fact that there's a film out that "counters everthing Moore says" Rest assured, if it gets big and it's shit, then it'll just help Moore. If it fades away, it will help Moore. I've been hearing about it since before farenheight even came out and I've yet to hear a single review, other than it goes and talks to millionaires who have lived the american dream and don't believe in this Moore'esk view that america is crumbling under a failing economy and corrupt government. When it all comes to a head though, the facts are not in dispute. Bush is a stupid dumb shit hated thoughout the entire world, Iraq was a sencless "Look how big our dick is" slaughter, which is proving to be a "You call that a dick?" reply from all the nations looking... and Americans are the poor sorry bastards who are going to suffer the worst. In the end that is, I fear some other country has yet to see American Bombs. I welcome the draft, only for the fact that I know that if I was going to be forced to pick up a gun and go join a slaughter of innocents - I'd sooner take that gun to the fascists sending me on my way. And people WILL realize that there is more of us than there is of them. And these dipshits are going to arm us? In the immortal words of GWB - Bring it on.

  • Sept. 28, 2004, 11:57 p.m. CST

    BUSH DID ACTUALLY BAN STEM CELL RESEARCH

    by bushsux

    Sorry I have to prove you conservative wrong again but here e go: Bush allowed scientists to study and conduct research on the stem cell lines they had in their posession at the time of the ban. Scientists actually now have less than half those stem cell lines available to them now because after a while stem cell lines whither down into nothing. There are, however, millions more stem cells that scientists can get access to but thanks to this administration and the religious right that won't be happening. This is like me giving scientists ten monkeys and saying "OK, find a cure for cancer, but I won't give you anymore monkeys." Why did Nancy Reagan plead with you conservatives to change your position about this?

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 12:19 a.m. CST

    I didn't realize a dr. could have an IQ in the single digits...h

    by 900LBGorilla

    <<<<

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 12:51 a.m. CST

    Ginger twit indeed

    by 900LBGorilla

    <<<<<<<

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 12:57 a.m. CST

    Bush /stem cells

    by 900LBGorilla

    For the record I disagree with Bush on this one. Here's something a lot of you need to learn -towing the far of either party line is usually a pure indicator that the person eschews reality for "a position" I understand it in a politician ... in a citizen (like moore) it is an indicator of blanket stupidity.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 1:10 a.m. CST

    Wow , sure your not mad ape?

    by Dr Farragammo

    bonzo, I have read churchill, and Bu$h doesn't read at all, so he doesn't read churchill and therefore has none of his knowledge, and neither do you, otherwise you wouldn't bring him up to support issues he never would have. Our president knows nothing of his history and that is why he is a world class fuck up. Obviously you are livid, as shown by your rant, and are therefore one of those class A numbnuts I was referring too, making shit up , then claiming I have no facts, or my theories are invalid. Wow just because you and your mindwiped sheep say it's true I guess I was wrong. yeah right. You guys must all share the same cliff notes , that the douchebags have on all the new shows with their hammering of 3 catchphrases to try and dupe everyone. And I KNEW you'd bring up Rather, just like a kid with a new toy. Rather has ALWAYS BEEN A DIPSHIT, and this is nothing new. He is arrogant and a affront to good journalism. And he did the great disservice to try to tell a story that is true, with evidence that was faked. Much like OJ going away scott free because of dumbfucks like mark Furhman. We all know who sent Rather the forged docs, but I'll forgoe that for now. But Rather's lamentable mistake has given you new found fervor in your belief that there is a LIBERAL media. There isn't. there used to be back in the days of NIXON up to the early years of Reagan, but corporations have made sure their intrests ($) are kept safe by protecting Bu$h and his cronies , and their tax reliefed asses. If you want to go off on rather than please be "fair and balanced" and go off on FOX. Back to Churchill.Why don't you read the historical quotes haildahypnotoad laid out and coment on those please. Explain your take on their words and how they apply to people of your false patriotism. I know you'll never understand, and the fact that my FACTS and your FACTS never check out is because your facts are made to support your belief system that you and other republicans are always right and never wrong. Black and White thinking is all youcan handle because nuances and multitiered decision making scare the living shit out of you. Go off on Kerry and his wife. I'm not crazy about him either, but compared to a drunk jesus freak with a worldview of a 2 year old, I'll take a anyone who will give momentous decisions more than just a few seconds between golf swings or chopping down trees . yeah Kerry is a windsurfing dork but he has a few things going for him: The ability to speak in complete sentences, a sense of humility, the desire to play well with others, and a CLEAR VIEW ON WHAT WAR IS REALLY LIKE ON A 1ST HAND BASIS. He was there after all, swift boatersbe damned, he was there, and accounted for, unlike chicken george. How sad it is, to just want a president to speak in COMPLETE SENTENCES. eat your banana and play in your poop now ape, play time's over. it's been real and it's been fun but your still one dumb fuck .

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 1:20 a.m. CST

    Ride the Poles

    by Dr Farragammo

    one last comment about the polls. Voter registration is at an ALL TIME HIGH. A report on CNN yeserday said in Ohio , voter registration for republicans is up 25%, but that Democrat registration is up 150%. If that is in one swing state, then the implications are clear that all these weekly polls are bullshit. Tons of pissed off kids are lining up for no other reason than to vote bush out. That's there only goal. None of these voter polls will use any one with a cell phone as their primary phone. This means that we won't know shit until election day, and I have a feeling we're in for a BIG suprise. The Crawford Texas paper supports John Kerry! That's just one more reason to believe that nothing is what they seem and the news channels are completely out of touch.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 2:33 a.m. CST

    To Romanweb

    by Dr Farragammo

    1st off, i would like to say that you were very civil in your message and I will respond in kind. 1st of it is common knowledge that Bush has repealed many of the environmental laws that Clinton had in place. He lets many corporations police themself. which essentially lets them pollute to theri hearts desire. He supports companies that do mountain top drilling, sending tons of dirt and debris into our oceans and lakes, poisoning our water and fish. There are many instances mentioned in Robert Kennedys sons book re: their stance on the environment. I know you will scoff at this but has plenty of facts and figures, and 1st hand accounts to back it up. Just the fact that Bush supports drilling in the Alaskan wildlife preserve is extemely disturbing , and shows that his support of big business superceedes any concern for nature. All of his plans such as the Clear Skies act don't go into effect untillabout 10 years which shows he has no intrest in taking a stand now. And the Kyoto accord is a BIG deal, because global warming is an issue, and it's just another example of Bush not taking the environment, or our allies seriously or with respect. Bush has lied repeatedly about Iraq. There are NO connections between Sadam and 9/11. No weapons have been found, and no connections have been discovered. this goes all the way to Bush appointed inspector David Kay's admisson that our going into Iraq was under an assumption that had no bearing in truth, all the way to the 9/11 Commision report. And north Korea , along with Iran, Pakistan, and Syria is a serious threat, unlike Iraq. They have the capabilties and the weapons. Iraq doesn't. Just the fact they hit Alaska with a empty missle last year shows they have the capability and the lack of a sane leader to provoke an attack. Also Kim Jong-il's human rights violations of his people make Saddam look like Santa. We haven't held up our end of the bargain in catching Osama. And the economy is in a horrible state. Those numbers may look impressive on paper but they have no bearing on reality, Many of these jobs that were "created" are actually old jobs given to strikers from unions, many with less pay and fewer benefits. And other jobs that pay below a living wage and have no health care benefits. We're going to have to agree to disagree on these issues, because the facts I read support my concerns, and the ones you voice just aren't based in a reality , they're politicised statistics that are stacked incorrectly. And the fact that we didn't call Saudi Arabia on their refusal to help us, shows how indebted we are to to their oil supply and Bush's ties with them. We lambaste the french and the germans yet we treat Saudi Arabia with kid gloves. Do you not question why that is the case. I appreciate your tone and your convictions but I feel they are misplaces. sorry.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 4:03 a.m. CST

    Big fat Gorilla

    by TheGinger Twit

    I love how you argue with things to back you up such as 'polls' and the '911 commission'. I mean, seriously dude, getting Bush to hold a hearing on the intelligence failures is like giving a couple million to Ted Bundy to set up his own trial. Yeah you heard me. Secondly, these polls... I've yet to learn where all these 'polls' are coming from. They are always just a couple of points over the opposition aren't they. I can tell you now that these Polls are conducted by government run media and market researchers and usually consist of 1000 people surveyed. Having worked in market reasearch, Television news rooms, i can tell you right now that everything is delivered from high up and under orders. I've even been instructed to destroy results and swing in favour of competion on several occasions. Granted this was for hotels and restaurants, but c'mon man - it's all the same shit. And I can tell you now, when the polls are always in favour of the supreme leader bush then we always have it broadcast for everyone to hear... but when it swings the other way, what do we get? It's to close to call! Yeah! Fucking bullshit my friend. Look, you go out and find 10 people and see how many of them truely support Bush. I can tell you now, I don't know one damn person who does. And I travel my friend. Far and wide, with many connections. And you know there's only one place I ever find people who support bush... Fox & friends, and Aint it cool news.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 4:57 a.m. CST

    The deal with Ralph Nader

    by pablojakaffo

    The reason why not as many people are voting for Ralph Nader this time in the 2004 election is of the following reasons... 1) Nader did not stop George W. Bush from being elected in 2000. 2) Nader has become a renegade by being an Independent candidate. Instead of taking advantage as a Green Party candidate; where he would be guaranteed on the ballot in at least 43 states; Nader has struggled to get on the ballot in many states. As a result, Nader has spent more time getting petition signatures than anything else. 3) Unfortunately for Nader, as an Independent, he was not able to secure the endorsement of the Green Party. So now, Greens have candidate David Cobb running for president. That means progressive voters (if they don't vote for John Kerry) will be baffled between choosing Nader or Cobb. Plus Peter Camejo; running with Nader as a VP candidate; is a Green and so that means technically two progressive candidates have Green Party members running with them. I've run into many Greens who are furious at Ralph Nader and whom are supporting John Kerry. Greens know about John Kerry's environmental stance.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 10:11 a.m. CST

    Another rediculously, long winded response Dr. F.....

    by ROMANWEB

    No need to be sorry if what you read is what you agree with but I have a hard time when I

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 10:32 a.m. CST

    Stem Cell Research Debate

    by ExcaliburFfolkes

    Bush banned the use of federal government money for stem cell research on all new strains of stem cells (i.e. other than already preexisting ones which can still be tested on with government funds until the existing strains run out); but, private sector companies, foundations, etc. can still legally cultivate new stem cell strains and perform research if they so desire. And naturally, any other foreign government or company can do so as well. Cures for paralysis and Alzheimer's disease would be worth hundereds of billions of dollars, yet the private sector isn't exactly pouring huge sums of R&D money into stem cell research. Either the private sector is missing the boat, or they really don't think stem cells will yield the cures everyone else says they will. Very curious.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 1:31 p.m. CST

    LbGorillaman: Are you honestly saying...

    by Alatar_Blue

    ... that you believe the results of political polls? Gallup or otherwise? Do you know ANYTHING about statistical analysis? Polls don't mean JACK SHIT. The manipulation begins with how the questions are phrased, and continues throughout the entire process. I could take the results of a single poll, or several, and show that either candidate is the clear leader, using the SAME numbers to draw either conclusion. All polls really reflect is the personal agenda of the pollsters. Statisical manipulation/wishful interpretation is damn near inevitable when analyzing polling data. One can literally make the numbers say whatever they want them to.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 2:17 p.m. CST

    The Bush admistration's environmental record

    by Alatar_Blue

    http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200409/20040928_transcript.html EXCERPT: "This is the worst environmental president we

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 2:22 p.m. CST

    And another:

    by Alatar_Blue

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/extremeoil/ Ever heard the expression: "Where there's smoke there's fire"? Wake up people.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 2:49 p.m. CST

    Alatar, Bush's Environmental....thing

    by ROMANWEB

    Here

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 3:16 p.m. CST

    And I can copy and paste as well as the next guy Roman...

    by Alatar_Blue

    ... the question is: Who's 'facts'(if any) are actually facts?: "We have an epidemic today of pediatric asthma. We know that asthma attacks are caused by 2 components of air pollution: ozone and particulates. We know that the principal source of those, about 60% of that material in our atmosphere, is coming from 1,100 coal-burning power plants who are burning coal illegally. It's been illegal for 15 years. They were supposed to modernize their processes. The Clinton administration was prosecuting them, 70 of the worst ones, for violating the law. But this is an industry that gave $48 million to President Bush during the 2000 cycle and have given $58 million since, and one of the first things that Bush did when he came into office was to order the Justice Department to drop those lawsuits. The Justice Department lawyer said, 'This has never been done in American history where a president receives money from a criminal targeted by prosecutors and then gets into office and orders the Justice Department to drop the prosecutions.' Now, you remember when Bill Clinton pardoned Mark Ray and how indignant everybody got. But Mark Ray was just one guy, and this is 70 different criminal enterprises, and Mark Ray never killed anybody. And according to EPA, those 70 plants--just the criminal exceedences from those plants kill 5,500 Americans every year." See what I mean? I think I'll go with the published author over some poster on an anonymous message board though - sorry.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 3:43 p.m. CST

    I actually went to the source itself......

    by ROMANWEB

    In Bush's economic plan from his very site. I don't see what the difference between my source on these figures and a "Published Author"is. To me they're merely two different authors taking two different sides on the matter. They're both writing down their research and it's up to the reader to decide it they believe it's accurate. As for cutting and pasting when it comes to articles and information we reference I don't even see why it's an issue since I believe more often than not posters in these sort of talkbacks do the same. You're also right when you say it comes down to which article you're going to beleive in. For me, I went straight to his site for the information to find out what HIS plan direclty is( Straight from the horses mouth if you will)since I'm not apt to rely on articles which might saturate his said agenda. For you, going straight to the Presidents site for any information is like diving into lie central and it's beyond you think to even do so because of any inherit bias coming from the site. So you choose to go to another source which is all fine and dandy. Who's right and who's wrong here buddy. Again, it depends on who you ask I suppose. As human beings, we're not meant to agree on EVERYTHING so let the world go round my friend. Peace.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 5:29 p.m. CST

    Actually, the guy Clinton pardoned was Marc Rich, not Mark Ray.

    by ExcaliburFfolkes

    And he had been convicted of organizing illegal multi-billion dollar oil deals with the Ayatollah Khomeini and the Iranians during the 1979-1980 Iran Hostage Crisis while nearly 90 Americans were being held capitive there.

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 5:37 p.m. CST

    Fair enough Roman...

    by Alatar_Blue

    ... and for what it's worth, I think you're right. I have an inherent distrust of politicians in general, and am skeptical of "official releases" from ANY

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 5:42 p.m. CST

    Yeah I noticed that too Excalibur...

    by Alatar_Blue

    ... I think it was just a typo in the transcription though, as Kennedy referred to Ray earlier in the interview. I didn't think it appropriate to 'put on my editor's hat' while posting a quotation. *** "I'm not entirely on anyone's side, because noone is entirely on my side..."

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Cut n

    by morGoth

    Please spare the rest of us folks and be considerate by remembering the word CONCISE! And, please, give us your own thoughts and just provide a link, thank you:) Now, as for The Healthy Forest Initiative, it

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 6:53 p.m. CST

    Eisenhower's Son Endorses Kerry, Says Bush Not Of Republican Ide

    by Sam Bones

    The son of the last Republican war hero and the greatest American Republican President in my lifetime (barely, I was a baby) agrees with Bush's hometown newspaper that Bush is a failure as a leader and a betrayer of rock solid Republican ideals and values. He endorses and plans to vote for Democratic John Kerry in November's presidential election. ---Bones... http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=44657 ... Why I will vote for John Kerry for President By JOHN EISENHOWER Guest Commentary THE Presidential election to be held this coming Nov. 2 will be one of extraordinary importance to the future of our nation. The outcome will determine whether this country will continue on the same path it has followed for the last 3

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 7:01 p.m. CST

    Bush's Hometown Newspaper Endores John Kerry

    by Sam Bones

    Kerry Will Restore American Dignity 2004 Iconoclast Presidential Endorsement (Bush Hometown Crawford, TX's Newspaper)... ... http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/Columns/Editorial/editorial39.htm ... ... ...

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 8:30 p.m. CST

    John Kerry to star as Oompa-Loompa in Wonka Remake

    by The Skeptical

    Photo here: http://img42.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img42&image=kerry1092704.jpg

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 8:43 p.m. CST

    Dr. Dim

    by 900LBGorilla

    <<<<<

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 8:47 p.m. CST

    Polls

    by 900LBGorilla

    My comment about the polls was to refute one of you dimwits that commented on how Pro Kerry people ooutnumber their opponents by a landslide (which CLEARLY is not true). Funny how the Libs laughed at Bush 1 when HE said the polls were BS....ok...well we'll see, just don't move to canada in a huff when the proof is revealed...

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 8:56 p.m. CST

    Doc on a roowl

    by 900LBGorilla

    <<<<<<<"No weapons have been found, and no connections have been discovered. this goes all the way to Bush appointed inspector David Kay's admisson that our going into Iraq was under an assumption that had no bearing in truth, all the way to the 9/11 Commision report">>>>>> ---- IN REALITY: It goes all the way BACK TO CLINTON- who said Iraq was a WMD threat when HE WAS PREZ- I LOOOOOVE how you deluded libs "conveniently " forget this liitle FACT (NOT to mention all the Dems who saw the intelligence and agreed with Bush--- like Kerry). Welcome to class again Doc- take a seat... ========= <<<<"And north Korea , along with Iran, Pakistan, and Syria is a serious threat, unlike Iraq">>>>. ---Ok so by this theory if a guy is supposedly Developing WMD- we should WAIT UNTIL ITS TOO LATE and hes done rather than stopping the process 6 independent global intelligence agencies cited?...ok...Apply your logic to cancer and we'd all be in for a ride... ----Oh yeah and WHY IS Koreoa a threat? HUH? GO learn something for fucks sake- it cause yer old boy Clinton gave them a fucking Nulcear facility and didn't have it inspected...GENIOUS! Where was fat ass Moore THEN???!!

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 9:06 p.m. CST

    Twit indeed 2

    by 900LBGorilla

  • Sept. 29, 2004, 9:24 p.m. CST

    Alet Blue -1+1= ...

    by 900LBGorilla

    <<<<<<"LbGorillaman: Are you honestly saying...that you believe the results of political polls? Gallup or otherwise? Do you know ANYTHING about statistical analysis? Polls don't mean JACK SHIT">>>>>. ---- UH YEAH they have bene proven CORRECT time and again. Forget the fact that ALL 4 major INDEPENDENT polls just happen to AGREE- what's that a coincidence or a conspiracy to you? ----And yeah I happen to know a little bit about stat analysis- and so do these pollster organizations (in fact they know a HELL of a lot more about it than you do). ============ <<<<<<<<<'The manipulation begins with how the questions are phrased, and continues throughout the entire process. I could take the results of a single poll, or several, and show that either candidate is the clear leader">>>>>>>> --Now you are simply CONFUSED- Normally you would have a point- but political polls are PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWEWARD it is A or B- kinda tough to confuse reven a retard on that one... ...oh and NO ONE would accuse the CBS poll of "pushing for bush" which is what you have done above- hell you need to listen to DEMOCRATE statiticians on this one- even THEY KNOW this is BAAAAAD news. I mean DAMN- You know when you are left of a professional liberal your theories have entered cookoo-land.

  • Sept. 30, 2004, 10:56 a.m. CST

    Gorilla, dude, QUIT SHOUTING...

    by Alatar_Blue

    ... you fucking imbecil. Your blatherings don't gain any impact whatsoever from your atrocious QUOTE/CUT&PASTE/SHOUT DOWN THE OPPOSITION BECAUSE THE SUBSTANCE IS LAME posting style. You just sound like a pontificating fool. And it's quite obvious that either know nothing about statisical analysis or are a gullible tool. I'm betting you're both.

  • Sept. 30, 2004, 11:04 a.m. CST

    And 900Lb? Put your money where your big fat mouth is:

    by Alatar_Blue

    "UH YEAH they have bene proven CORRECT time and again." By whom?! What you suggest is patently impossible nimrod.

  • Oct. 1, 2004, 7:10 a.m. CST

    Death to all fanatics!

    by Bart of Darkness

    To see all the venom on the talkback over the Hobson's choice between puppet A and puppet B is laughable. Go back to sleep America, your real rulers will let you know when they want something.

  • Oct. 1, 2004, 9:13 a.m. CST

    Terrorist Activity here has stopped

    by Jeditemple

    It'll be chaos if Kerry is elected

  • .

  • Oct. 1, 2004, 3:59 p.m. CST

    ZO

    by Super Person

    That line is so played out I won't even give the obvious litany of responses to it...

  • Oct. 1, 2004, 6:12 p.m. CST

    jeditemple you are insane

    by Dr Farragammo

    do you realize what a ridiculous statement that is?? how do you know? It took them forever to strike on 9/11 who knows when these sick fucks will get us next? With unprotected shores, understaffed border patrols, chemical plants that are completely unpoliced, we're all sitting ducks. Kerry has proposed strengthening all those points. Bush has done NOTHING in those areas. hell he even let the ban on assault weapons expire so imagine the catastrophe waiting to happen there? Hell boxcutters were one thing, I shudder to think what will happen when these fuckwads get their mitts on those. You are completely brainwashed.Yoda needs to come over and kick your ass, your on the side of The Empire.

  • Oct. 1, 2004, 8:58 p.m. CST

    Freedom, security, economy, health care, civil liberties, enviro

    by Darksider

    All in the shitter under Bush and the Republicans. And for what? Is it worth it? You decide.

  • Oct. 2, 2004, 2:19 a.m. CST

    oh yeah we're so much safer.....

    by Dr Farragammo

    To all those who think Bush has made us safer read this. I personally never have felt more a target. http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20041001/0857747991.htm&photoid=20041001LON100D

  • Oct. 2, 2004, 10:41 a.m. CST

    this thread is excellent evidence of Bush "uniter" skills

    by kuifje

    voice of reason is spread frightingly thin here. for a european like me, its very scary to find so many blind and ignorent fundamantalists on a popular site like AICN. are really so many americans this stupid?

  • Oct. 2, 2004, 3:45 p.m. CST

    if you want rape to be legal, don't vote

    by MiltonWaddams

    last time i checked, kerry and edwards were split down the middle on the "bible banning" issue, so it could still go either way. sigh.

  • Oct. 2, 2004, 5:16 p.m. CST

    This is a perfect indicator of why our country is doomed to fail

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    Seriously all of this bi partisan bullshit is a gleaming beacon indicating to the whole world how fucked we are. Bush the uniter, my ass. We have never been more polarized. You conservatives keep hammering at Michael Moore though. Non conservatives have had plenty of heros before Moore. Bill Maher and Al Franken have been clipping the right wing for years. Why is Moore such a threat to you? Is it because for the first time some americans are waking up? People are finally realizing that the Republicans don't have their best interests at heart. The charade has finally fallen. Finally we have a guy out there that irritates conservatives almost as much as Bill O'reilly and Rush Limbaugh irritate everyone else. Moore may not have all the answers but the fact that he gets under your skin is enough for me.

  • Oct. 2, 2004, 6:33 p.m. CST

    milton waddams you are a lunatic

    by Dr Farragammo

    kerry and edwards banning the bible? Canadian drugs supporting terrorism? At least put some actual facts or a coherent philosophy in your posts. You sound like the kind of people who take things out of context for their own twisted reasoning. Kinda like Islamic Fundamentalists! The bible should be banned from politics, religion is the worst thing to try to base logic and reason on, that's why we have the christian right say Dubya is putting God back in the white house when he's destroying the environment. Funny I thought Christians were supposed to respect God's creations, and reject materialist goods. yet all these guys do is buy hummers, destroy the planet, and buy $50,000 shower curtains (insert taxdodging, worker fucking, CEO here). Jesus would denounce this kind of nonsense. Then the religious right would nail him to the cross declaring him a false prohet. MAKES LOTS OF SENSE!

  • ...is that the Australian general election is in less than a week. The Spaniards have already ditched their pro-Bush president earlier this year. If the Aussies do the same with John Howard, think what message that'll send to democratic governments around the world: support the current US pres, and you lose your job. I can't ever remember a US President so hated by the general public in the rest of the free world. So if you want to keep your allies in government, vote in a president that would make foreign nations proud to support your country. Vote Kerry.

  • Oct. 3, 2004, 2:28 p.m. CST

    bladerunnerunit, you give me hope my friend

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    seriously, I was beginning to think that Dr. Farragamo and I were the only sensible people left on this board. Keep sticking it too them.

  • Oct. 3, 2004, 4:02 p.m. CST

    Notice they got REAL quiet after the debate?

    by ZeroCorpse

    Hmm... This thread lost the nazi-like ranting of CannibalNun, SHIVA and company as soon as their fascist leader had his ass handed to him on national TV... To be continued in the debate thread??? Good fighting scytheofluna, morgoth, etc... never forget that liberal-minded people are the majority in America! The conservatives just bark loud.

  • Oct. 3, 2004, 5:19 p.m. CST

    Iraqis

    by jsm1978

    I work with some people from Iraq, and everyone of them loves Bush for what he has done for their country.

  • Oct. 3, 2004, 5:22 p.m. CST

    Reagan

    by jsm1978

    Ronald Reagan was against stim-cell research, even with what he was going through, and for Nancy to be pushing it now seems a betrayal of his memory

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Bush claims that he's protecting the Us, but yet how is it that

    by The Founder

    I've never seen such disregard for border control in my life, and it gets worse every year. Look I have nothing against immigrants coming here, but do it the leagal way. The Us already has a 3rd of Mexico's population, I mean how many do we need? The bad thing is that the poor and criminals are the ones coming here, which in turn puts a strain on our economy. Castro did the same thing with the Cubans, he emptied out the prisons and sent the criminals here, and now you have the most corupt local gov in the US. Dade County Florida. I live here I know. It's only a matter of time before the so called terroists wise up and come through the Mexican border. Quite franjly i'm surprised that they haven't done it yet, well that is unless this whole terroist thing was nothing but smoke and mirrors from our GOV, and 9-11 was indeed prestage, but not by the islam extemists. My brain hurts, I'm out.

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Don't know if the Draft will be reinstated, but i know Bush is d

    by The Founder

    Bush said that he felt that Americans should be required to give at least 2 yeas of community service to our country. I honestly can't say for sure that the draft will come up, but don't be surprised if it does, especially since Bush doesn't have to worry about a 3rd term, well wait, his brother Jeb will probably run in 08??

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 3:03 p.m. CST

    My mistake, BUSH ISN'T DUMB ENOUGH TO MENTION THE DRAFT

    by The Founder

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 3:24 p.m. CST

    FRODODIES has once again proven his inability for coherant thoug

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    And his grammar is pathetic. Scythe-Of-Luna. Is that so fucking hard? You can expect legions of illiterate morons just like him to pour from our school systems if Bush's educational policy continues.

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 5:36 p.m. CST

    What this movie needs are werewolves eating Georgie's defective

    by Uncle Stan

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 5:38 p.m. CST

    Bush is an idiot...

    by Lost Skeleton

    ...and anyone who will vote for him is either a (1) idiot or (2) so right-wing that they will not acknowledge the truth.

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 7:41 p.m. CST

    4 months is a really long trip

    by Damer1

    Get real... Kerry is a traitor and a slimebag.

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 8:05 p.m. CST

    yeah and Bush isn't?

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    sheeple

  • Oct. 4, 2004, 9:50 p.m. CST

    Oh, Conservatives.... Heres the truth from the mouth of the pupp

    by SCYTHEOFLUNA

    October 5, 2004 -- Updated 0127 GMT (0927 HKT) Make this my homepage | View U.S. Edition FROM CNN.COM CHECK IT YOURSELF NARROWMINDS. I WON'T SAY I TOLD YOU SO!!! Rumsfeld: WE WERE WRONG ON WMDS U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld appears to back off earlier statements suggesting Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein had links to al Qaeda, and concedes that U.S. intelligence was "wrong" in its conclusions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

  • Oct. 8, 2004, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Say, what happened to...

    by mbeemer

    ...the article describing how to download this movie from www.kerrymovie.com? By the time I got home to try it, kerrymovie.com was redirecting to goingupriver.com, and the article had mysteriously vanished from AICN...

  • Oct. 9, 2004, 6:04 p.m. CST

    Beautiful Debates

    by WoodyStiffer

    It's just been beautiful watching Kerry dissect Bush in each of their debates. In a forum where Bush cannot hide behind press secretaries and his own henchman, Kerry has exposed him as a clueless figurehead. Simply beautiful!

  • Oct. 14, 2004, 4:16 a.m. CST

    you missed the story in your own backyard

    by Electric Tsunami

  • Oct. 14, 2004, 4:19 a.m. CST

    you missed the story in your own backyard

    by Electric Tsunami

    Sure you covered all of the antiBush films that were released this year (sponsored by PACs like Moveon.org) but there was a conservative film fest held in Dallas this fall that even drew golden turkey film geek Michael Medved. So much for trying to get a taste of the political documentaries released this year. Hack work rules. Kerry fans know what to do. Please don't riot in the streets when Bush wins re-election. The peaceful transfer of power is one of our nation's greatest traditions.

  • Nov. 9, 2004, 2:05 p.m. CST

    Test

    by Kaitain

    Just a test. Oh, errr, Bush sucks. Or something.

  • Nov. 14, 2004, 12:36 a.m. CST

    There absolutely must be a sequel to this

    by Blacklist

    By Marxist law, it will be a farce. "Going Upriver 2: Back in Action, or Not" "Going Upriver 2: Pullin' Shrapnel Outta My Ass" "Going Upriver 2: Wait, Let's Go Back Down the River for Kicks" "Going Upriver 2: They Took Yer Jeeehhrb!" No matter what they do with it, the sequel will have a much longer shelf life than the first Going Upriver movie.