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Five Stars!!!!! The Buffiverse Goes Dark!!

I am – Hercules!!

Angel 5.22 FAQ

What’s it called?

“Not Fade Away.”

Who’s responsible?

Teleplay is credited to Jeff Bell (“The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco”) and Buffiverse mastermind Joss Whedon (“Conviction,” “A Hole in the World”).

What does TV Guide say?

“In the series finale, the gang gears up to take on the members of the Circle of the Black Thorn and thwart the Senior Partners' plans for world domination. But first, Angel instructs everyone to live the day before they launch their assault as if it were their last. In addition, Angel's role in the Shanshu Prophecy is revealed.”

When do we learn Angel’s role in the Shanshu Prophecy?

9:10 p.m.

What is Angel’s role in the Shanshu Prophecy?


What’s great?

Hamilton!!!! “Move like this, I wouldn’t mind having Blue Thunder in our corner.” “Which is interesting for a secret society.” “Your manservent has become tangled in my bodily fluids again!” “But I keep thinking that once this world was theirs, and now it’s not.” “Nobody ever mentions the fact that you’re a vampire with big brass testes. It’s going to be a circus.” “Yeah, I think I’d be more comfortable if you did.” “What if I told you it doesn’t help?” “Mistress who?” “It’s nice to know you’re one of the few things he didn’t get his mitts on.” “Oh. Can I deny you three times?” “Anyway? About Angel’s secret plan?” “Come master! Come to Smeagol!” (may have been a commercial) “Well. Long as it’s not you.” “No problemo, boss.” “It’s not an act. I’m really this nervous.” “I am damn loyal, dumbass.” “It’s already on the desk.” “Doyle. Cordelia. Fred. They’re all dead. Now you follow.” “And lucky for you I’m on a strict diet.” “I mean, really. I crap better magic than this.” “Care about that, Dress-For-Less?” “I’ve heard you sing. You’re not part of the solution, Lindsay.” “A flunky? Angel kills me!” “Goodnight, folks.” “Yes. Thank you, yes.” “It won’t be much longer. Then you’ll be where I am. We’ll be together.” “Can you pick out the one word there you probably shouldn’t have said?” “Time to go.” “I feel grief for him. I can’t seem to control it. I wish to do more violence.”

What’s not so great?

I don’t like cliffhangers.

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

“Well, personally? I want to slay the dragon. Let’s go to work.”

Herc’s rating for “Angel” 5.22?


The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:
***** better than we deserve
**** better than most motion pictures
*** actually worth your valuable time
** as horrible as most stuff on TV
* makes you quietly pray for bulletins

9 p.m. Wednesday. The WB.

Swing the crebbil!

I am – Hercules!!

Looking for bumper stickers, plush toys and girls’ underwear covered with cartoon double-amputees? Visit The Herc Store!

Readers Talkback
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  • May 19, 2004, 10:04 p.m. CST

    Goodbye Angel!

    by TheDarkShape

    And thanks for the memories.

  • May 19, 2004, 10:05 p.m. CST


    by pet the kitty

    I'm depressed

  • May 19, 2004, 10:05 p.m. CST

    It's not a cliffhanger

    by BenjaminGrimm

    They all go out fighting - seems pretty clear. Hell of a way to go.

  • May 19, 2004, 10:05 p.m. CST


    by mag7man

    "Thank you, from your friends at the WB"!!! That's the funniest thing I've seen all season

  • May 19, 2004, 10:06 p.m. CST

    The WB

    by foobeka

    Yes the first one to post and not the last one to say that those bastards at the WB can burn a long time in HELL. JACKASSES!!!!!! LONG LIVE JOSS WHEDON!!!!!

  • May 19, 2004, 10:06 p.m. CST

    Best lines

    by saareman

    Illyria: "I will shred my adversaries. I'll pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewling, mutilated faces." Wesley: "You

  • May 19, 2004, 10:07 p.m. CST

    why is joss such a dick

    by fisher and sons

    WHY JOSS WHY U COULD HAVE JUST ENDED IT NOW ALL OF US NERDS HAVE OT FUCKING WAIT TILL SOME TV MOVIES COME OUT. Did anyone remind him the show is OVER cliffhangers really dont work when their wont be a next season

  • May 19, 2004, 10:08 p.m. CST


    by loveyougol


  • May 19, 2004, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Loved this series.

    by mrfan

    Thanks for the great five years. Hoping that the next DVD sets have plenty of extras.

  • May 19, 2004, 10:11 p.m. CST

    What the FUCK was that

    by MollyB

    The ending 'your friends at WB' if they were my friend I'd be kicking that a$$es about now -- why they hell did they just give it 1 hr when other STUPID, CRAPPY shows get 2. The WB just sucks.

  • May 19, 2004, 10:27 p.m. CST

    That was one of the finest hours of TV I've watched in my life

    by Big Papa

    But DAMN did that ending piss me off to no end! No cliffhanger my ass.

  • May 19, 2004, 10:30 p.m. CST

    Best Show Ever...

    by lsuhsc2006

    It's sad... I really have no reason to watch television after tonight. Great episode, great series, great universe... they will all be missed. And as for the "WB thanks you" piece... I did like watching it (many good scenes there), BUT... I'll always think the WB is crap (well, it is now anyways).

  • May 19, 2004, 10:31 p.m. CST

    No Shanshu for you!

    by GypsyTRobot

    Thanks Joss for hours and hours of entertainment. You took television and realized its potential for humor, drama, and art, putting the medium on par with film. Someone will call me pompous for saying that, especially equating television with art -- but all 3 Whedon shows have had their sublime moments. You really touched us. Hope your muses never leave you and you keep on making the magic. +++ People who quibble with the ending - they only had 1 hour. Just use your imagination. Hell it's in the tradition of ambiguous cinematic endings like "They Might be Giants" (the movie not the band) and "Limbo". Still sad we didn't get to see Wolf Ram & Hart though.

  • May 19, 2004, 10:34 p.m. CST

    Love/Hate relationship

    by _Fate_

    Joss I LOVE You and Hate you at the same time. Your brilliance is unabounding and your cliffhangers make me hate you. I love Angel, There has not been an episode I havn't loved and kudos to you my friend. This last episode was amazing and I love you for it dude. This cliffhanger is the biggest end ever. I remember reading a certain article off this site where Joss said something to the effect of he wouldn't do a cliffhanger for this episode because they "were mean". You are a sick bastard Joss. anyhow thanks for creating the two best series ever to grace tv. Those bastards at the WB don't know what they lost.

  • May 19, 2004, 10:50 p.m. CST

    Ok, now what?

    by dancingbean

    Oh my gosh!! Whyyyyyy????? I was screaming at the tv for the last 10 minutes. Whyyy? *shakes an angry fist at the WB* (aka Without Brains) Why did Lindsey have to die? Him die and keep Eve around? HRmm, kay, suuure. And Connor coming back (YES! SO HAPPY!) And Lorne giving it up? Agh. And Wes dying...I want to see more of him and Illyria, they just rocked. Nooooooooo And sure we can "assume" they went out fighting, but I don't beleive Joss' deaths even when I see them, let alone when they are OFF screen. For all we know glowy Cordy could have come down from on high (again) and saved them with her newly acquired harp and wings. What do I have to look forward to on television now? Like, honestly?

  • May 19, 2004, 11:17 p.m. CST


    by The Paladin

    Too bad it had to end like that. I am still in denial of the fact that Wesley is dead. I still can't think of him as gone. And since there are not going to be any more episodes, I won't!

  • May 19, 2004, 11:29 p.m. CST

    RE: Ending

    by The Paladin

    For the record, they did fight and make it. If there ever is any continuation of the Buffyverse, we will find out that they all should have made it past the demons at the end.

  • May 19, 2004, 11:29 p.m. CST

    The ending is NOT a cliffhanger

    by RenoNevada2000

    The whole theme of the show has been the fight for redemtion, even against overwhelming odds. Does Angel and crew make it out of that alley or not? Does matter. All that matters is that the crew kept fighting. Works for me. (Though I am monumentally disappointed to see the series go...)

  • May 19, 2004, 11:35 p.m. CST

    Can I deny you 3 times?

    by Kungfumanchu

    Great stuff.Wish it had another hour.I know some will gripe about it being a cliffhanger,but there's cliffhangers & then there's CLIFFHANGERS.I'll gladly take a "the fight goes on" one like this over what could've been the finale if the show hadn't came back this year or something like Farscape's finale.I'd love to see what was next,but there's something to be said for going out on top.It wouldn't suprise me to see what Joss planned for the 6th season be released in comic form before we ever see Angel movies of any kind.I'm damn glad I stopped recording before "my friends at the WB" thanked me for watching.WTF? Just got finished watching it again without seeing that bs to get the bad taste out.WB now joins PAX & Lifetime among shit channels blocked on my satellite. Many thanks to M.E. for all the seasons of quality entertainment.

  • May 19, 2004, 11:37 p.m. CST

    Awesome Ending to an Awesome Show

    by Zombies dont run

    You can't ask for much better television then that, it's a shame it ended too soon. F the WB.

  • May 19, 2004, 11:38 p.m. CST

    A Sad End

    by Virtual Satyr

    Great ending. I think I felt more sorry for Lorne than I did Wes though. At least Wes got to see "Fred" one last time. They go out fighting...that's exactly how I pictured it. Thanks Joss.

  • May 19, 2004, 11:38 p.m. CST

    from your friends at the WB?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

    by RickSlamu2

    I just cant beleve it's over like this. Although old Joss said in an interview that he wouldn't screw his fans over by leaving it on a cliffhanger, (no mater what you thought of the ending good or bad) that's more or less what he did!!! :( But the big insult here is when the WB tried to make nice with all the angle fans at the end! "Thank you from your friends at the WB"? :rolleyes Well WB i beleve i speak for a lot of Angles true friends when i say "Fuck you BITCH!" And to think 2 years ago i thought that Angle was a crappy spin off of a once good but then turned into a selfimportant shtifest of a show! Not to be morosely philosophical but how far we can come in greatness!!! THen have it yanked away by braindead corprate suits who would know a goog thing if it fucked them in the ass. And of course being the WB i'm sure it has a few times. Good night folks {Starts to play a Frank Sinatra rift and sings} FANGS....For the memories!!!!

  • May 19, 2004, 11:53 p.m. CST

    You take the 30,000 on the left

    by jtp972

    A better ending than "Buffy. We can quibble about whether the show should have ended on a 'cliffhanger,' but the real genius lies in what came before the final scene. Who would've thought that of all Spike has seen and done, the time he'd choose to revisit, symbolically at least, would be his last day as a human. Classy touch having the audience cheer at the 'efulgent' poem. Spike earned redemption, but William had yet to do so until tonight. And a final resolution of sorts between Angel and Connor. Nice. And even Gunn got to go out doing what he lived for at the show's beginning: dusting vamps. And it became clear how the journey to the dark places that turned Wesley into a hero utlimately left him alone and empty...with nothing to do on his last day but spend it with literally a shell of the woman he loved. Wesley became by far the best character in the Buffyverse. So at the end of it...all the heroes have left is the fight. Did they win or lose? Who knows? Maybe higher power Cordy intervened. Or maybe Buffy rolls in with an army of slayers and saves the day. Or maybe the last 4 standing just hold out as long as they can. Maybe we'll find out one day...maybe we won't. Doesn't matter. Being a hero doesn't have anything to do with winning or losing. The fang gang made that clear in the final scene. No real plan...ridiculously outnumbered. And just one directive from Angel: "Let's go to work." RIP Angel.

  • May 19, 2004, 11:54 p.m. CST

    that was...effulgent

    by Xandr37

    Damn you WB. Had to add that to all the others. What a great episode though. Of course it was going to be a cliffhanger. You actually believed Joss when he said that he doesn't believe in cliffhangers. Every single season except the Buffy finale was a cliffhanger. But if you look closely and know the story, it isn't a cliffhanger because you'll know how it will end. There will always be evil and they will always be there to fight it. And Spike will get the Shanshu cause Angel is out of the running. Does he deserve it, that's not for me to say, but it is in Angel's character to make yet another sacrifice because that is what his life is, one sacrifice after another to fight the good fight. The WB sucks but it did have to end sooner or later since you can't really have a show about vamps last too long with aging actors. Sure I would have liked to see another season especially when it seemed to be better then ever lately, but it's best to go out on top. As for the tv movies, doesn't seem like it's going to happen. DB himself here in Chicago last week said he was against it unless it was a full length feature and I would think even then it would take away from this ending. I've been with this franchise since season 1 of Buffy but it had to end sometime. Quite a few other shows will benefit from these great writers and lets hope that Joss can meet the monthly deadlines of Astonishing X-men, although his Fray which was like 7 issues spanned about 2 years:) and the artist he is working with isn't really known for turning stuff in on time either. But Joss is a young guy and I expect there is still a lot of ideas in that head of his and now that he has made a name for himself hopefully we will see those ideas on screen for a long time. Great episode!!!

  • May 19, 2004, 11:55 p.m. CST

    You take the 30,000 on the left

    by jtp972

    A better ending than "Buffy. We can quibble about whether the show should have ended on a 'cliffhanger,' but the real genius lies in what came before the final scene. Who would've thought that of all Spike has seen and done, the time he'd choose to revisit, symbolically at least, would be his last day as a human. Classy touch having the audience cheer at the 'efulgent' poem. Spike earned redemption, but William had yet to do so until tonight. And a final resolution of sorts between Angel and Connor. Nice. And even Gunn got to go out doing what he lived for at the show's beginning: dusting vamps. And it became clear how the journey to the dark places that turned Wesley into a hero utlimately left him alone and empty...with nothing to do on his last day but spend it with literally a shell of the woman he loved. Wesley became by far the best character in the Buffyverse. So at the end of it...all the heroes have left is the fight. Did they win or lose? Who knows? Maybe higher power Cordy intervened. Or maybe Buffy rolls in with an army of slayers and saves the day. Or maybe the last 4 standing just hold out as long as they can then die like champions. Maybe we'll find out one day...maybe we won't. Doesn't matter. Being a hero doesn't have anything to do with winning or losing. The fang gang made that clear in the final scene. No real plan...ridiculously outnumbered. And just one directive from Angel: "Let's go to work." RIP Angel.

  • May 20, 2004, 12:08 a.m. CST

    "Fight the good fight...."

    by delwin

    That's what it was in the end. That's what the show was about. NOOOOOOOO! Denial is the word. Wes!!!! But he'll be with Fred. NOOOO! Did anyone else want to see Willow bust the door down right before *sigh* Wes bit it? I wanted to see Buffy come in when Angel was fighting the Agent Smith guy. But at the brilliant end, I realized that would have been cool, but a mistake. JOSS! WE LOVE YOU MAN! Thanks for your vast imagination, please come back with something to kill all reality TV! Please!!!? Don't leave us here to wonder........

  • May 20, 2004, 12:18 a.m. CST

    spike's poetry

    by JoeStokowski

    they had to include that "effulgent" poem, didn't they? i was in tears when ilyria became fred.. what a wonderful episode.

  • May 20, 2004, 12:32 a.m. CST

    Waaaahhhhh - I needed a "Buffy Bash" group of friends to help ea

    by Stoney-321

    The only saving grace for TV now is that Arrested Development was renewed. Oh, I just was so sad to see Wes "slip away." SLip away? SLip away? He can't just slip away.... Sorry - teetered off into Annie Wilkes land there. Anybody want to form a Brocktune community with the cast of Angel in a glass jar? And how great was it that Harmony was (duh!) evil? Loved that the letter was in the desk for her. I hope you great fanfic writers out there will churn out some great stories to help wrap it up in my mind's eye. To the cast and crew of Angel - yours was the best of the best. Let's hope you put out more!

  • May 20, 2004, 12:32 a.m. CST


    by JackDonkey

    what will i watch on tv now, only alias remains (cause 24 sucks, so does arrested). Angel was the best show ever, I watched Angel way more than Buffy even cause Buffy is all bubblegum teeny boppy where Angel is dark and gloomy. Anyway RIP to the best television show ever, the show which provided the best 4 episode story arc in the history of time itself, yes of course the pylea story arc, the greatest 4 hours in television history. Best show ever, television will never be the same. The worst part is I didn't even get the spike poetry connection until I read through the talkback, that is so cool and my stupid ass didn't get it when it mattered :( thanks from wb was kind of lame, but face it no other network wouldv'e ever launched a show like Angel let alone keep it past the first season, so you gotta give a little respect in their direction. And I'll still watch them, at least until Lorelai and Luke move in together, cause at that point it is over!!!

  • May 20, 2004, 1 a.m. CST


    by sTalking_Goat

    No cliffhangers my ass. That was awesome. Just fucking incredible. Lorne is the man, I didn't she that coming at all. Crazy, man, Crazy!!

  • May 20, 2004, 1:17 a.m. CST

    Missed it.....

    by vesp_e_rillian

    dammit. dammit. It's not on kazaa yet, anyone know another way to get it?

  • May 20, 2004, 1:44 a.m. CST

    Joss Whedon's post tonight on the Bronze Beta:

    by Kungfumanchu

    Can't stay long. Wanted to say thank you one more time, to all of you except anyone who ever criticized anything ever at all. I came on these boards in Buffy's first year and the support -- and even the criticism -- has been more helpful than I can type. I set out in television with one simple goal: to purchase a russian bride. Didn't work out. Immigration stuff -- it's complicated. But I did get to make this show, and that other one, and that other other one, and meet some of the best artists and the best friends I've ever known. I had dinner with Tim Minear the other night, and we talked about what kind of show we want to make next. And it always comes back to the same themes... people getting strength. People helping out. People being thankful for whatever they have, be it power, a decent life, or a fun-tastic russian bride. And I'm thankful that for the last eight years my cohorts and I got to feel like the superheroes. 'Cause of y'all. I don't know if the Buffyverse is going to return to TV, but I hope so, and I know we'll be putting SOMETHING out there. Maybe on HBO, 'cause I like me some cussin'. Keep you posted. -j.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:11 a.m. CST

    the smile and the fight

    by podunk411

    I don't think this was much of a cliffhanger--in fact, I think it was much like Buffy's smile over the pit that was Sunnydale last May. The shows went out on the themes they started in on. And holy crap was I crying through the Fred/Illyria/Wes thing. And a friend mentioned the Lorne/Lindsey thing was like Joss (esp. Lorne being the storyteller) stepping in for a moment for one last thing that he's just frickin sorry to do, but forced to do anyway. "Shows over folks, thanks for coming." dang, that firefly movie can't come out soon enough. we'll be waitin for you joss. thanks for so much.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:11 a.m. CST

    WB pricks can eat me

    by friend of loki

    Yeah, I really despise that network right now. "We thank you for all these years" my ass. God, why does reality TV have to be so popular, and kick off quality shows with a loyal fan base? Now, "Blue Collar TV" and some shit from Drew Carey is going to replace the "Angel" timeslot, and I have no idea if they're going to put on that crappy vampire remake that helped cancel the show. As of this moment, I will boycot anything from this piece of shit network! And you know what? I hope Joss Whedon doesn't do a TV movie, because the WB isn't worthy enough to lick his asshole, let alone have him make anything else for them! *sniffle* Well, back to sobbing. Joss, darling, please make something else in the buffyverse, but put it on a network that deserves it!

  • May 20, 2004, 2:17 a.m. CST

    The End Of All Things

    by Liquid_Daze

    The beginning of the season was excellent, then ho-hum, then at the midway point it caught fire. (ex. Spike vs Angel; Ilyria) But it seemed to me that after the Done-witcha' B. announced there'd be no more Angels, the spirit of the show was sucked-out. That spirit was present and in force tonight. Excellent episode. I do feel that one more season would've allowed the show to pay off the long standing story arcs better. (ex. Buffy, Willow, Giles, Dru & Darla -in the present-, a looksee @ the senior partners) I wonder if after Smallville turns its syndication quota whether it will kept around longer --> I doubt it. Gilmore Girls seems to be suffering from the same Dubya-B disease: excellent beginning to the season, full of potential & energy; then peaking at the midway point; and then finally wrapping up sloppily. Bring Jess & Dean back, again; Separation for the Elder Gilmores, LUke & Lorelei, Rory loses her virginity and engages in adultery AT THE SAME TIME, real multi-tasker that Rory... AND ALL IN TWO EPISODES. Thank you Joss Wheadon, though as a viewer I was never in 100% agreement with your decisions, Mutant Enemy's effort and imagination, talent and commitment, never let me down. I always wanted to see what happens next. We've got Arrested Development & The Family Guy, Comedy Central, HBO & Showtime; take the other 600 hundred channels & 6,000 other timeslots and blow them up. PS Fuck Friends & Fraiser. Get rid of NBC. (Conan's had it too, you guys.)

  • May 20, 2004, 2:20 a.m. CST


    by Whedon

    A better finale then I could have possibly imagined. That final cut to Exective Producer Joss Whedon after hearing Angel say "Let's go to work" was the most emotional thing I have ever had the pleasure of watching on television. Fanboyism aside, thanks Joss. Some highlights for me would have to be Gunn's "Let's make em memorable" after seeing hell unleashed. Also loved Spike's " next ones called the wanton folly of me mom". Wes's death was a tribute to his character since this was the end Joss knew how much his death would resonate with the audience and since Spike and Angel are kind of essential to any future Buffy/Angel movie that ever transpires Wes was the obvious choice to bite it. We also should add a bonus star onto this eppy just cause they had Mercedes McNabb in her underwear. 6 stars

  • May 20, 2004, 2:33 a.m. CST

    With WB Friends Like That Who Needs Enemies

    by Jinxo

    I am dumbfounded by the sheer idiocy of the WB. They have to know that fanboys across the country are angry as hell at them. I can see them holding a meeting trying to figure out how to deal with that very problem. Hmmm... what to do? Lets put up a lovely farewell montage at the end showing that we care too! We'll win them over by sharing in the goodbye. Seriously, that has to be what they were thinking. Which just shows again they're fools. Folks at the WB, imagine somebody gives you a puppy. They let you raise it and get attached to it for 5 years. Then you come home one day and discover that the same guy who gave you the dog has killed it for no apparent reason than for the heck of it. Now imagine while you are still filled with shock and outrage that same guy comes up to you and says, "Man, he was a heck of a dog. What a shame. We'll miss ya Sparky!" Now... think about this real careful WB... are you A.) touched and moved by that statement OR B.) amazed that against all odds you are actually even MORE angry and disgusted to the point of revulsion. If you were hoping for B, well, mission accomplished. You should have just aired the episode and kept your corporate mouth shut. Dumbest move I have ever seen.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:43 a.m. CST



    Just. Fucking. Magnificent. THANK YOU. (And from this day forth, the WB is exiled from my TiVo.)

  • May 20, 2004, 2:44 a.m. CST

    fuck the wb

    by non-existent-man

    great another well written show with strong characters gone. yet we now have all the shit wb shows to look forward too. yes more and more unreal teen problems of one tree hill and everwood and funny oh so fucking funny comedy of reba and gilmore girls. fuck you wb motherfuckers.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:45 a.m. CST

    One last time: WHEDON YOU SON OF A BITCH!

    by KCMOSHer

    Okay, fine, I'll join the bandwagon: NO CLIFFHANGERS MY HAIRY ASS!!! I mean, dude, I can understand leaving a door or two open for possible TV movies or whatever, but maybe a LITTLE closure? A tad? On anyone other than Fred and Wesley? They played that story out perfectly, but the rest? UTTER BULLSHIT. Oh, don't get me wrong, th episode kicked ass on so many levels, but the ending of every OTHER storyline...UGH. Lorne's depressed and has lost his hope in the world. Lindsay is dead, but oh, we're keeping Eve around, since she's SO much more than a formerly immortal fucktoy. The rest of the gang? Facing an evil army in the streets of LA, half dead...with NO idea what the outcome is. If the outcome is 'ROCKS FALL EVERYONE DIES' then so be it, at least pack the cahones to finish what you fucking start! If they bite it fighting the good fight, then GIVE us that! Don't leave us with this unfinished tale after all the fucking time we spent watching the show! GAH! And don't give me any of this lyrical, philosophical 'it wasn't a cliffhanger because they were just doing what they always do, bla-de-bla' horseshit. It ended before it was finished. The end specifically left you hanging, waiting to see how it actually DOES end. Hence, it is a CLIFFHANGER. Yes, I am still Joss Whedon's bitch. Yes, I'll watch everything the man does. Yes, I'd LOVE to see more Angel in any form. That being said, FUCK JOSS WHEDON, FUCK HIM UP HIS STUPID ASS.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:49 a.m. CST

    couldn't of ended any better

    by YourHero

    that's a perfect example of how to end a show that's still on top. great stuff. still pretty upset that wesley died, but it was a good death. glad that whedon kept angel real, as in no bringing back fred (for real at least) or buffy. btw, eve probably died, as it was pretty evident that she chose to stay in the building after finding out lindsey wasn't coming back. Gunn seemed on the verge of death, the only ones that were ready to fight strong were the vamps and blue thunder. would've liked to see another season though, with wesley still alive however. great ending, it just all seemed rush, still good stuff though.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:50 a.m. CST

    And with that last brilliant note, now all we are left with is a

    by Daryl van Horn

    Superb episode. I laughed and I cried (literally) sometimes at the same time. Still, Joss had said it it would not be like a cliffhanger. Still too damn close for a cliffhanger for me. Thing is we know he wants to bring the Buffyverse back and at least some of these guys will be in there. (Spike almost assuredly) BUt if you don't know that, then the idea here is basically that they go down in a blaze of glory and die. Brilliant stuff though. Spike reading his poetry to a bar of bikers and getting applause was one of the greatest moments in TV history. Poor Lindsey, I couldn't believe how much I felt for him as he realized he was dying the death of a sidenote. And Wesley! They killed Wesley. Poor guy. One of the richest characters on either show. Loved how Illyria couldn't help but grieve. (Amazed how much I liked her overall) Poor Lorne, I think in the end hooking up with Angel's team was not the best thing that ever happened to him. He had a good life with his bar, and now he's a sad man who saw too much death and lost too many loved ones. Loved the touch with the Shanshu, Angel just signing it away. To hell with prophecies anyway. AH man I can't believe it's over. 8 years of Whedonverse. What on earth is there left on TV now that's more than a passing diversion??

  • May 20, 2004, 2:54 a.m. CST

    It is never over

    by goingtowork

    Talkback virgin here, and it took Angel's series finale to do me in. But I wanted to echo the statement made earlier that this was the perfect series ender. I've seen a lot of enders, but none have wrapped up the meaning of a series as fully as this one. Buffy's ending seemed to literal (and I love Buffy), but Angel's ending struck a perfect cord. I don't believe that they all die in the end, because that is not what they do. They live. They find a way to live. They find a way to continue being that drop in the bucket, because for anyone that has ever done any good, that is what we do. The war in Iraq, the homicides at home, the vile of hatred by those put out because of backed up traffic to save one life hanging over a is overwhelming. The odds are overwhelming. They always are when trying to do good. No, they didn't die in that alley, because good does not die. It fights on. And also, they lived because I really want a Buffy/Angel big screen movie.

  • May 20, 2004, 3:14 a.m. CST

    The ending definitely leaves one wanting more

    by tombseye

    Kind of cruel to end it with a cliffhanger and Wesley dying was poignant and yet in character with Joss. Maybe he'll be back like Obiwan and tell Angel to use his fangs or something. Anyway, this show, for me, picked up where Buffy kind of started to slack off a little. It was darker and sometimes more depressing, but the more adult angle worked for me. WB gave up on a really great thing. First, they monkeyed with success by moving it back and forth from Sunday to Wednesday. Damn suits. My honest take is they took a chance on Buffy without thinking that it would ever work and then milked both series for as long as they could and discarded them without a corporate care in the world. I gotta say that they really should do a series of movies (or at least tv movies, but not on WB) even though I bet it's gonna be tough to pulloff. Also, they'd better do it soon 'cause Angel and Spike aren't going to pass for early 20s forever. Great series and I can't wait to see what Joss comes up next. If the networks have any brains they'll put on anything he comes up, but that's probably asking too much. Afterall we can just stare at the tube and watch reality tv instead of a well written and inspirational show. Keep yo chin up Joss.

  • May 20, 2004, 3:15 a.m. CST

    It was an okay show. Probably too "hip" for its own damn good, b

    by jackburton2004


  • May 20, 2004, 3:17 a.m. CST

    Darth Rosenberg, are you retarded? Shows that "go out on top" do

    by jackburton2004


  • May 20, 2004, 3:34 a.m. CST

    Vampire Staked by talking frog with top

    by Paul Allen Voiq

    The ending was fantastic way better then most. And the last scene was great. A set up for the fans to decide what happens and make it personal. They go out fighting maybe they win maybe not. Maybe we never learn of the wolf the ram and the Heart. But im sure Joss will continue to write great stuff and hopefully not suffer Chris Carters Curse. And speaking of curses. Abig Gypsy curse goes out to Dark Shadows and all who work on it. It will doom the WB. They fucked with the wrong vampire. Well done Joss.

  • May 20, 2004, 3:36 a.m. CST

    great episode to a great show

    by mag7man

    I agree, it was not a cliffhanger, it was a perfect ending which simply showed that the fight will always go on. A lot of brilliance here with Spike receiving the adulation he always wanted as William with his poetry. Lorne assassinating Lindsey. Merceded McNabb as a Victoria's Secret model. Connor's return. Hamilton's demise. The unfortunate death of Wesley and his touchig sendoff (certainly better than what Anya got). Wish he would have pulled out his attachable vegamatic one more time instead of that pathetic knife. Too bad they never got any help from all of those potential junior slayers that were created on the Buffy finale. Also, having a hard time picturing Angel in the audience for the first taping of the Carol Burnett Show. All in all, a great ending to a terrific show and let's all be grateful for boxed sets

  • May 20, 2004, 3:57 a.m. CST

    My friends at the WB.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    Went back to school recently and so I've had to tape Angel for half the season. So I'm watching the tape and finishing up Angel at approx 12:30am when they jump into what could be their last fight ever and I'm assaulted with a thank you from the W-fucking-B? You're kidding me right? I didn't just see that did I? I'm not really screaming FUCK YOU WB at my TV so loudly that I woke up my wife and 3yo son am I? I'm not really stomping around the house all pissed off as my wife cracks the bedroom door in fear of the angry man I've suddenly become am I? Yeah, I sure was and am, holy shit I'm pissed off right now! No, no, no, thank YOU WB, thank you for nothing.

  • May 20, 2004, 4:19 a.m. CST

    Thanks, Joss...

    by SPY-der

    I read somewhere that Joss probably wouldn't have had as brutal an ending for the series had he had a sixth season to work with. At the same time, the whole Wolfram & Hart arc was feeling a tad stale, but I was really curious to see where it would have gone in Season 6. Since we won't get one, I'll have to make due with this ending. As a final episode, I get it. It worked; the whole point of the show was "keep fighting the good fight." I was seriously disappointed that SMG didn't actually put in an appearance as Buffy. I know ANGEL was a spin-off of her show, but still... would have been a nice finishing touch. Body-doubles in blonde wigs just aren't the same thing, and as much fun as some of the Italian episode was it still didn't really feel like things were settled between Buffy and Angel. I think out of respect for the show/universe that made her, SMG should have shown up. Scheduling problems, I heard. Whatever. I'm curious to see how much of a shelf-life she's got in features beyond mis-casting as Daphne in SCOOBY-DOO movies. ANYWAY... thanks to Joss Whedon for sticking with the Buffyverse as long as they'd let him. Thanks for making BUFFY the way you wanted it to be in the first place, instead of the camp-crap movie it first was (but Paul Reubens still gets props for best-prolonged-death-scene). Thanks for ANGEL and for the Luchadore episode and for Spike. He still got the best lines, all the way to the end ("Can I deny you three times?"). Thanks for putting Amy Acker in that bondage-outfit. As for the WB... well, I think it takes a lotta gaul to cancel the show and then "thank" the fans at the same time. Kind of like offering a handshake with the hand you just wiped your ass with. Maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm just grumpy that now there's one less show worth watching on TV. Syndication just isn't the same. Thanks, Joss. -- SPYder, out.

  • May 20, 2004, 4:56 a.m. CST

    this *was* a happy ending after all ****spoilerific****

    by an0dyne09

    ****spoilerific**** ****spoilerific**** every main character, in the end, got exactly what they have been passive-aggressively courting, some from the very beginning- resolution and sweet release. and make no mistake; like the on-screen deaths, the final four at the end also die. they know they won't survive and yet they all happily choose their fate. except for lorn, but i'll leave him for last. angel: he's lost every woman in his life- buffy, cordy, darla, fred. he's lost his son many times. he knows he'll never become human again, that the good fight is forever and he knows that his son will survive to take his place when evil returns in full measure. in the end, he made peace with his son. best choice: die fighting. wesley: he began his life with a horrible childhood, continued by failing in his watcher duties and the last straw was the death of fred. without the group, his life has no meaning. in the end, he knows he'll be joining fred. best choice: die fighting. gunn: he has never forgiven himself for his sister's death. he still feels guilty for leaving his old life and ending up a lawyer, of sorts. in the end, he knows that the good work will continue without him in the neighborhood and he'll join his sister. best choice: die fighting. spike: he's lost dru, buffy and fred. he is going to get to fight to the death against overwhelming odds and die as a hero rather than share lindsey's fate some day. [poor guy thought he was a player but in the end he was just an afterthought]. in the end, he got to recite his poetry and make peace with his human past and now he'll die like a warrior vampire. best choice: die fighting. illyria: well, she is in fred's shell, so i'll include her. she was a powerful god and now she's [granted, this is relative] powerless. without wesley to ground and guide her through this world, if you're not going to be a god, might as well be a warrior. best choice: die fighting. harmony: as an aside, i loved that she remained evil in the end. she had no soul; she's tried to be good, but it's just not her nature, in life or death. i'm glad she'll live so that even when there is a slight respite from grand evil, she'll remain as just another banal evil roaming the world. lorn: here's an interesting case. he was never a true core member. i have always enjoyed the more happy-go-luck-lorn to the pensive lorn he's been lately. then you realize that angel has asked him to kill someone of his own volition. he didn't just move cities to escape violence, he moved to a different universe. and worse, he's known since he heard lindsey sing that he'd have to do this, hence withdrawn-lorn. whatever debt he may have owed angel, he's surely paid before this and it's just the last straw. in the end, he leaves the group and, like all of us must do now and again, chalks it up to falling in with a group of friends, pursuing their goals but finally realizing that he can just leave without dishonor and live the life he wants again. best choice: carry on wayward son. there you go: happy endings all around. "Let me rest in peace Let me get some sleep Let me take my love and bury it In a hole six foot deep I can lay my body down But I can't find my sweet release" thanks for indulging me and my li'l post. an0dyne09.

  • May 20, 2004, 5:12 a.m. CST

    Advertisers, withdraw from WB asap!

    by krims0nknite

    Just look at the line up of the next season's shows. Anyone who knows anything about TV audiences at all can see that it is horrendous. Add to that the Angel fans who will hate the WB for life for what they've done, and the WB viewership is going to drop like a rock. Withdraw your advertising now, save some money. Advertise with hbo, or showtime, or anything else.

  • May 20, 2004, 5:12 a.m. CST


    by AlienBoy

    Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I feel dead inside, now. To anyone reading this who's never watched the missed one of the greatest television series of ALL TIME. Thank your lucky stars for DVD. There's a hole in the world.....

  • May 20, 2004, 6:01 a.m. CST

    Cue the Video Game...

    by DarkStarEX

    Hell of an ending. Endless hordes of demons raining down on 'em. Angel takes the first stroke, we cut to black. Now... MAKE THE VIDEO GAME! Seriously, the first Buffy game was pretty good (the second one was more of the same, not as good though). Now put us in Angel, Spike, Gunn, and Illyria's shoes. First level it replays the last few moments of the series, and as soon as Angel takes his swing, you take control. I could definitely see this as a Dynasty Warriors-style kill fest. It's not exactly letting our heroes go violently into the night, but c'mon, Whedon needs to line his pockets a bit before 'Serenity' comes out. I'd play it.

  • May 20, 2004, 7:13 a.m. CST

    Butch and Sundance

    by Morbiak

    Cliffhanger ? nah....the perfect way to end the series. They knew that they couldn't win but they went out as heroes against overwhelming odds. Very Butch and very Sundance. Thanks Joss and good luck on your next project. damn...just realized all my fave shows have ended in past 6 more Hercules, Xena, X-files, Buffy, Farscape or to get out more now I guess.

  • May 20, 2004, 7:26 a.m. CST


    by Huze

    Considering Whedon said he hates cliffhangers, I figured it was appropriate that he ended the series with somewhat of a "cliffhanger". Another way to snub his nose at our friends, the WB, by basically saying I hate ending this show so I'll end it in a way that I hate. Great show, great ending, and I'm already getting geared up for Firefly!

  • May 20, 2004, 7:32 a.m. CST


    by TheDarkShape

    As opposed to the geeks who refuse to accept they're geeks as well? Sorry, but you have to be worse than a geek to consistently post about how bad geeks are.

  • May 20, 2004, 7:32 a.m. CST


    by atomheartbrother

    If Buffy was our very own American feminist Harry Potter: the saga that was the education and maturation of a girl into young woman, Angel was the great never ending quest, whose requisite grandeur was provided by it

  • May 20, 2004, 7:40 a.m. CST

    With friends like these, who needs enemies?

    by Forget_Byron

    I couldn't help but think "you hypocrites!" when I saw that sign-off from the WB at the end of the show. "Your friends" my ass. I hope the producers of other shows that air on the WB sat up and took notice at that one. If I was a producer for such a show, and a WB exec claimed to be my friend, I'd start shopping around ASAP for a new network to air my program. And slops to Joss Whedon for telling fans the series finale wouldn't be a cliffhanger because he doesn't like them. You don't kill off your strongest character 10 minutes before the end of the episode, then leave fans believing everyone else died in a fight we don't get to see. All I can say is I'd better not ever see anyone from Team Angel in whatever upcoming movies or televsion series. If we're supposed to believe they're dead, THEN THEY HAD BETTER BE!!! I'm also more than a little disappointed that ME made no effort to get UPN to pick up the show, or even to push it into syndication. The WB doesn't own the show, it only had the rights to air it. So the real question is: where was Fox during all this? Fans of a more lackluster show (Star Trek: Enterprise) got better treatment from the network that airs their show. Why couldn't Angel have that level of respect?

  • May 20, 2004, 7:56 a.m. CST

    "YOU kill me?"

    by Big Bad Clone

    That might as well be Angel talking to the WB....I don't think it's sunk in for me that Angel is really gone. This last half a season was fucking great (except Time Bomb, but I just am not a fan of time loops). Mnaa oh man was that great even if I was spoiled for it. Shit, I was stills surprised and teary eyed when Wes died. I think it ending the best way it could but I still would love to see the end of that fight. "Personally, I wanna slay the dragon!"

  • May 20, 2004, 7:58 a.m. CST

    Whedon said he put his anger in the show...but he took it out on

    by Runningnun

    Look, show me a happy ending inthe Buffyverse? Willow and tara..nope, Xander and Anya, definitely not, Buffy and Angel, nope, Buffy and Spike, Buffy and Riley, nope, Wesley and Fred, nope, not even Willow and OZ. Whedon, for some reason, refuses to allow his characters to be happy. It's almost a "plot by numbers": Show the happy couple happy, then make them fight, make something bad happen, then have them get back together...and within a few episodes, one of them is dead or off the show. Never watched Firefly, and I doubt I'll watch anything else Whedon-inspired. I suggest we all do the same. This was as frustrating an ending as Buffy's was. At least that show ended. Don't get me started on the wasted death of Anya. And you have to admit Buffy ended with a 'the fight will go on" message. But there, you saw the Scoobies, looking at the crater that was Sunnydale, and you knew they were safe for now. You knew there was a lot of work to do, but that was another story to tell. ON Angel, "Hey, lets have them surrounded by bad guys, badly beaten, and then just go to black." Come on!!!! You had such brilliant developments, Lorne and Lindsay, the changes in Ilyria, the unecessary revelation that Connor remembers (Come on Joss, you telegraphed that one 2 eps ago). Sure, you can kill off a character, you can end with an ambiguous ending, but a cliffhanger? That's just rude to the fan. Mr. Whedon, next time you want to end a series, do some research on some great finales: Trek TNG, Ds-9, B5, Cheers, Mash...just to name a few. Instead, you took the X_files route. Funny, the X-Files had a terrible finale and co stared Adam Baldwin as well...maybe it's all in his contract. And as for an Angel Movie? DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH. That's a tv's executive's version of "I had a lot of fun tonight. I'll call you sometime." Mr. Whedon, I'm finished with your shows. You've written some of my favorite hours of TV, but to me, you're not a closer.

  • May 20, 2004, 8:37 a.m. CST

    So who built the robot of Wesley's dad, and all those ninja robo

    by rev_skarekroe

    ONE THING I wanted resolved before the end of the season, and that couldn't do it. Ah well, good run otherwise. sk

  • May 20, 2004, 8:44 a.m. CST

    Angel Finale

    by Rhaegar

    Unfortunately, I haven't seen the finale yet. Must power up the Tivo tonight. However, from what I've heard of the end, it seems a bit reminiscent of the end of the movie "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" which is a fave of mine. I wonder if that movie influenced Joss at all.

  • May 20, 2004, 8:45 a.m. CST


    by flave

    Can't add much to what has already been written here. Gonna miss this show. One final detail: If they do continue the story (in whatever form) I think Joss has left himself an out with Angel signing the Shanshu 'waiver'. He signed it ANGEL. Shouldn't he have signed it ANGELUS? Just a thought. Anyway, good luck Joss and the whole crew at Angel. Thanks for the great entertainment.

  • May 20, 2004, 8:52 a.m. CST


    by ExcaliburFfolkes

    Jack, the ratings may have gone down, but the production values and storyline never did. I think that's more along the line that Darth was referring to in his post.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:07 a.m. CST

    "Goodnight folks."

    by Greener44

    Eight years. Wow has time flown by. I remember watching Buffy for the first on YTV recovering from the previous nights drunken debauchery going out to futhur my stupidity. I do say if that's the way it has to end it's not a bad way to go. I'm not going to object to a TV or big screen Buffy/Angel but man was that ever a great episode. I liked it as much if not more than the Buffy finale. I mean come on William the Bloody is back. Illyria's knock out punch. Spike taking on guys with a sword and baby in hand. Gunn giving the senator the axe, literally. Angel and Connor versus Hamilton. Wes's death scene. Lorne capping Linsday. I'm trying to think. Is Lindsay the only person or demon Lorne ever killed in the series cause I don't remember him killing anyone else. You feel so bad for the guy. All of it was great. the ending. What a brillant ending! It's open-ended and it's not at the same time. That's genius. Well I got to say it's been fun. I enjoyed every show in buffyverse. Well that's it. Stick a fork in me. This is my last post. Wish you all the best. Cheers.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:07 a.m. CST

    It was about as much a cliffhanger as...

    by Fezzik22

    ...Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Leaves it open for movies or whatever but doesn't punk out with some sappy...we saved the whole world ending. You assume they all go out fighting but there's always that chance that they could make it. Good ending to a good show!

  • May 20, 2004, 9:20 a.m. CST

    The apocalypse won

    by Engelhast

    I want to start by saying that thanks to Joss, Mutant Enemy and the cast of the buffyverse for the years of excellent entertainment. I am going to miss the crap out of you guys. So Angel and the fang gang are going out in a blaze of glory huh? That is a pretty cool way to end the series IMO but if I have learned anything about Joss it is not very damn likely. So how would they over come the insurmountable odds against them? There are two likely scenarios in my mind. The first and least exciting is that the Demon formally known as Fred is not as powerless as were led to believe and she either zaps the gang off to somewhere safe where they can regroup and devise a plan to take out the senior partners or she slows down time enough for the gang to escape and take out a good number of baddies on their way. The second more exciting outcome for me would be that little side trip that Angel and Spike taking to France a few episodes back turning out to be way more important than we thought and what we did not see was Angel either speaking to Buffy at some point or leaving her a letter of his intentions to take down Thorn Inc. Just as the big battle that is shown at the end of the last episode begins a fuck storm of Slayers headed by Buffy, The Immortal, and the most powerful witch on earth arrive just in time to join the fight. This would surely make for one hell of an exciting motion picture IMO.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:27 a.m. CST

    Brilliant ending...just brilliant

    by godric

    The last minute of the last episode left me more elated--not just for good entertainment but to live my life well--than almost anything on TV ever. That wasn't a cliffhanger--it was a statement. Way better than Buffy's finale. Anyway, the one nitpick I have is that I never quite "got" Lindsey's character. He leaves in Season 2 on the path to being reformed, and comes back this year for--what? To bring back Spike and hurt the senior partners and hurt Angel and then help Angel but be shot by Lorne? I just didn't get it. Sorry.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:39 a.m. CST

    "Today I took care of all the family business"

    by antnee21

    The episode played out like the end of Godfather 1 and 2. All it needed was Moe Green taking a bullet in the eye.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:50 a.m. CST

    Godfather ending

    by LoneChicken

    What is it? A night for Godfather endings on the WB? Smallville had a Godfather-like ending to the season as well.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:51 a.m. CST

    With the end of Angel quality tv is on life support

    by Toby___Wong

    First of all I want to thank the whole crew, from the caterer to Joss, from Angel for making history and quality. We owe you lots of hours of entertainment. Too bad we can't thank you personally. Probably no one of the Angel crew will ever read this and that's too bad. They did a better job than the Buffy crew anyway. As for the ending. I am glad I didn't read any spoilers. I totally expected something else but was entertained nonetheless. It was excellent for something I didn't expect. I hated what they did with Wes, one of the coolest characters in any series. And Lorne. Lorne ! JFC, since when did he become a bad ass ? That was as unexpected as the punch that knocked out Roy Jones Jr in the second round. Angel and Connor fighting side by side was awesome. And Illyria. There is no hotter character on television than her. I still hope someone picks up the series in some kind of form, be it tv shows or movies. I am so sad to see this show gone. Warner Bastards is to blame for that. They are not my friends, they are my backstabbing friends. What do you do when so-called friends backstab you ? You either beat them up or you ignore them for the rest of their lives. Since I can't beat them up I am sure as hell gonna boycot Warner Bastards. I am sorry for the state of tv land. Quality tv is on life support and The Shield seems to be the last man standing. FUCK AMERICAN IDOL, FUCK THE O.C., FUCK CHARMED, FUCK THE APPRENTICE, FUCK SURVIVOR, FUCK DARK SHADOWS, FUCK SMELLVILLE AND FUCK ALL THOSE FRUSTRATED JOBBERS THAT KEEP BASHING ANGEL. THE BIGGEST FUCK HOWEVER GOES TO WARNER BASTARDS. I WILL IGNORE YOU, BAN YOU AND BOYCOT YOU FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE . NOT THAT YOU WOULD CARE ANYWAY, BUT FUCK YOU NONETHELESS, YOU BACKSTABBING BITCHES.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:57 a.m. CST

    It's NOT the Buffyverse!!!

    by M. November

    Okay - what everyone seems to over look is that this is NOT the Buffyverse. It's not even the "Angelverse" ... its the Whedonverse and each show or aspect has it's own special properties. I was over all - disapointed in the finale. I would give it a 3-4 maybe - which is a shame because had they given it a 2 hour space it could easilly have been a 5. The writing was there. The cast was definitely in top form. The direction however was rushed by time constraints and limitations - you could tell. This, once again is the WB's fault - it's becoming a running gag with them. Shows which have a nice solid core following, critical reviews, and high face value mean little or nothing to that network. Angel was a show that had "legs" as they say. Season one - people gave it one season without help from Buffy and it'd be over. It's five seasons later - and it stands on it's own as a very solid peice of work. Critically speaking it was a general consensus it had just reached it's stride, it's best work. It definitely could have lasted another 2 maybe 3 seasons easy. Let's look at the current "cream of the WB crop" - Gilmore Girls is an awesome show. Has no legs. It'll be gone in 2 seasons. (Why? Trust me - awesome as this show is - it's only got 2 seasons. Fans for those kind of shows are flightly and fickle. 2 seasons and it's News Radio all over again fighting to stay on the air.) Smallville? Smallville CAN only have 2 seasons left. Why? Because Clark HAS to go to college - and go on to become Supes. The targe audience that WB panders to in ALL of their shows is Teens. Teens with money. (One of the reasons why Angel had to get a "real" job at W&H as the exec is ... that whole "fight the good fight and be poor" thing doesn't fly with Studio Execs trying to appeal to a largely white, upper middle class, filled with angst, need to fit in, gotta spend money to be as cool as the people on TV demographic. They do not "do" shows like "Angel" anymore. Buffy may have made the WB - but they dumped her when she got too expensive and too old. Angel was kept as a way to appease the fans - a pay off. Angel was always a throwback, a dinosaur to the days of WB where having a long run show meant something. Where story lines had arcs that spanned entire seasons. WB doesn't do that - they don't do long term shows. Long term shows are expensive. The stars become popular and cost money, the writers and producers want better sets and better locations and so on. Short run 3 season wonders - are what WB wants. Something that runs up the ratings for 2-3 seasons and they can dump and replace. "Disposable Quality TV" - and Angel doesn't fit into that mold. The talk of "movies" out of them is just that - talk. Joss has reported he's seen no real offers on it. No one else has reported it as anything but talk. Angel was an awesome show. And we should - keep up the fight - but bring the fight where it belongs. To the WB - and let'em know this isn't the ending we want. We who love this show - cannot and should not let it "fade away". We need to let WB know that their 3 season wonders - great shows like Everwood, Gilmore Girls - well written and well acted and so on - but have no legs. No way to go on beyond that 3rd season with any strength - and were chosen for that very reason. Those shows don't cut the mustard, we put an emotional investment into them - we don't need the abuse that comes from having them repeatedly plucked in their prime. Mark my words - 2 seasons from now - all of the shows I've mentioned - will either be off the air - or having their finales - no matter how good they are. It's what WB does. Quality programming means nothing to them - fan base means nothing to them - they have demonstrated this repeatedly. The "WB Thanks you" at the end of Angel last night was the kiss - the $5 on the nightstand for cab fare - for the fans of Angel. All that was missing from it was the "I'll call you - sometime.". There will be no movies. We've been had - and they'll do it again and again so long as we're willing to support a network that plays it's viewers. They need shows with legs. They need shows that can - when something new comes along be able to hang in there, and fight, maybe not be at the top of the food chain - but hang in there - all the way to the very end. Just my 2 cents.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:57 a.m. CST

    Get off the stage, Burton

    by Recognizer

    "jackass2004" should keep his head, penis, etc. out of his own rectum for a moment. This show fucking ended up on top -- this was easily its best season all the way through. The show wasn't cancelled due to ratings -- the Powers That W Be decided to end the show when it'd run its course (and honestly, I don't think it was going to top this season). And if you glibly assert that geeks don't have lives? Typing your two N/T posts to mock geeks doesn't exactly elevate your own social status; you're right here in the cesspool with us. Also, fuck you and your mother.

  • May 20, 2004, 10:03 a.m. CST

    "Your Friends at the WB"

    by emvan

    . . . are obviously not the assholes who cancellled the show but folks at the next level down who wanted the show to continue. It's infinitely unlikely that the folks who pulled the plug actually work producing video segments like the one that followed the show. They sit at a desk and make idiotic decisions. So the closing montage was a way of letting the fans know that the show still had wide support at the network by the people actually involved in making TV.................Completely agree with the take on the ending offered by others: no sequel, they all die honorably; but an army of Slayers arriving to save their butts makes perfect sense for the first scene of a sequel.

  • May 20, 2004, 10:21 a.m. CST

    'And, "I could never have done it without that high "C" from "Ma

    by rev_skarekroe

    Lorne can hit extemely high notes that diorient people, break glass, etc. BTW, I'm NOT gay, but I'm flattered that you're interested. sk

  • May 20, 2004, 10:25 a.m. CST

    Only good TV shows left now are Korean historical dramas

    by GypsyTRobot

    And that's pretty sad. Yeah WB, my TV is now set to the Chicago Korean station cause their subtitled medieval soaps are the only shows worth watching. Masterpiece Theater fans should check out Dae Jang-Geum, it follows the broad theme of poor-but-virtuous heroine striving against scheming higher-class ladies, with funky costumes. The warrior show with the Arch Fiend is decent, although it's a little too much talk and not enough military guys killing each other.

  • May 20, 2004, 10:26 a.m. CST

    That ending was pretty cliffhangerish....

    by Jrzlee

    but my thought is that IF there was a next season, Buffy and all the other countless slayers would join the fight and win since Angel and Co. finally rejected Wolfram & Hart. Other thoughts that are SUPER SPOILERISH://///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////Cried like a baby when Wesley died, for some reason I thought it was going to be Lorne.///Surprised Angel had Lindsay killed, thought Lindsay was actually sincere at the end.////Guess Eve dies in the building--Angel didn't even look back to see if she followed him out.////Surprised Harmony turned out to betray them -- I think -- it was a little murky there, but still didn't upset their plans.///Great last lines, something like, "Now what do we do?"--just like Buffy's finale!///Slay that dragon--ya, know, like a CHAMPION!!!!///I never thought I'd feel lousy over the demise of a T.V. show, but after 8 years with these characters, I sure feel blah.

  • Here's my reasoning for that bold statement. Every season of both shows has had one or two episodes that just stunk, with the exceptions of Buffy season 5 and Angel Season 2 (both shown during the 2000-2001 season, which may mark the high point of the Buffyverse) AND Angel season 5. But if you compare the overall quality and entertainment value of the last 22 episodes of Angel with that of either of those two seasons, Angel season 5 wins hands down.

  • May 20, 2004, 10:35 a.m. CST

    5 stars my....

    by xeeds

    LAME!!! The finale had its high points and was quite good at times, but what a disappointment. You can be idiots like Herc and praise this as being amazing just because you are so in love with Whedon (despite how much I have liked many of his things, he's still the guy that wrote that piece of shit Twister) that you call this hour of TV great when it was LAME!!! I don't think it was a cliffhanger, and I can deal with them going out fighting explanation, but it wasn't the right way to end it. Perhaps there should have been a voice over, Spike, Angel, Cordy, or Wes's voice talking about how the fight will go on, but with the fall of the senior partners, thhat this chapter has ended. It could have faded out with them kicking butt in the background as it panned out and faded to black. You can say that those endings would be too clche or not Whedon, well they would have been better than what we got, despite the fact that I think Whedon can be just as bad as he is great sometimes, I know he had it in him to give us a better ending than what we got.

  • May 20, 2004, 10:38 a.m. CST


    by titosantana

    Last night was absolute brillance, as the minutes counted down on the hour I got a little sadder knowing that this was the end. It was great seeing team angel lay the smackdown on the black thorn but there are still so many unanswered things and I'm sort of pissed that we may never see the wolf,the ram and the hart but I felt proud to be a fan of this show at the end when angel and co were staring down the hell legion coming there way. What came to mind though was the episode from last season (I believe it's apocalyspe nowish) where we see lorne in the beginning performing at a nightclub somewhere in the future and thinking back on the past (with sadness) on how things were never the same for team angel. Thanks to whedon and co (what the hell do I do with my life now without a show from the buffyverse) for creating some of the best television there and thanx to team angel for showing us that sometimes for one moment and one time you gotta do things on your own terms and fuck the consequences.

  • May 20, 2004, 10:48 a.m. CST

    yes, he went out fighting, but...

    by MiserableRainGod

    unfortunately, the story that they conconted to allow him to "go out fighting" was so last minute and thrown together as to be a major pimple on this episodes otherwise perfect ass. The dialogue was great, the fights were great, the actors - great, the themes were all AtS, through and through. But the whole story was crap. Lets kill a few people we just heard of yesterday? That will piss of the major demons of this world so that they kill us. That's our big "move" in the apocalyptic game of chess? Kill a few people, who seem much less evil than, oh, ANY of the 700 guys we've killed on this show in seasons past? Big deal. The whole circle of the black thorn thing was awful - a means to an end. The whole Buffy closure thing, the Shanshu closure - it was all barely there. Was any of this stuff closed in a satisfying way? No. No senior partners. No good explanation of the wolf, the ram, the hart. No apocalypse. Just a bunch of demons walking down an apparently 10-mile long alley in LA, where there is apparently no other human life to notice, ya know, Godzilla and King Kong walking around. OK that they wanted to show Angel and team go out fighting. But how about some story to go with that theme? I blame WB, sure, because they gave Joss very little time to wrap up the show. But I blame Joss, too, because the story arc at the end was pretty bad, the writing, other than the character stuff and dialogue, was pretty bad, the planning in general was pretty bad. The whole theing where he tells us "these people are very evil. they want to make an apocalypse and they also have their hands in all sorts of other evil things. And they work for the senior partners..." it was a cop out - you don't just tell us they're evil, Joss - you're supposed to show us they;re evil. And yet we don't really see them do anything wicked. They sit around a table. The black thorn had what - 5 minutes of on screen time, total; and most of it had them sitting around a table chatting and chanting? I expect more. These "most evil demons on this plane of existence" were a bunch of boobs who did NOTHING. So I didn't care at all when they were all going to be killed. I didn't feel any threat from the group whatsoever. There was no plot, no apocalypse, no power struggle, nothing. Argh! OK this rant is getting more and more disjointed, so that's it for me. Buh bye, Buffyverse. Sorry you felt you had it end it that way, Joss - storyless.

  • May 20, 2004, 11:02 a.m. CST

    You're missing the point...

    by godric

    The ending was perfect--it gave the exact message that Joss wanted to give; you don't have to agree with that message, but no Slayerettes jumping in, or a voice-over, or anything else would have made it more effective. The ending was the whole point, and it's a metaphor for our reality. Life is a way, whether you realize it or not, and there are no civilians. You'll either end up living for the life-choking system of the world, where you need more and more whatever to find ever-fleeting happiness (sex?, drugs?, TV?, etc.) , or you'll find True Good--the Way, the Truth. A famous book says this about those who fight for Good--"they loved not their lives, even unto death." And Joss's message: if you truly fight for what you believe in, it will cost you. Fight anyway.

  • May 20, 2004, 11:03 a.m. CST

    jackburton2004, don't be such as ass

    by omarthesnake

    Angel did go out on top. Creatively, it was in fine form. As for the ratings, they were still strong, but the WB wanted something 'fresh', feeling that the show had its core audience but couldn't add new viewers this late in the game. In other words, it was a corporate decision, made only for the bucks and not for anything involving creativity... how else to explain them renewing that piece of tripe Charmed and cancelling Angel? When you call someone "moron" for saying something supportive of a show as good as Angel, you look like a petty twit. Which, granted, may be the case, but you don't have to go telegraphing it.

  • May 20, 2004, 11:25 a.m. CST

    Good ending but only if that really is the end

    by jim

    To follow this episode with a TV movie would require an explanation of how our heroes got out of that situation. That would reduce the series ending to nothing more than a "cliffhanger". Overall, I loved this episode. Although it did seem more like a Season Finale than a Series Finale. Here are my thoughts on the final Angel: Maybe that horde of demons at the end were not coming to fight Angel & Co., maybe they were rushing to Wolfram & Hart to fill the vacancies left by the deaths of the Black Thorn members. I liked the ending but I might have been more satisfied with an ending that was less of a "cliffhanger". What if the destruction of the Circle of the Black Thorn was nothing more than a slight inconvenience to the Sr. Partners. Angel & Co. are expecting the Partners to come down hard for killing the Thorns but then what if the Partners just didn't give a crap. To them that sort of thing is a drop in the bucket. Or better yet, it had been the Partners' plan all along. The Partners wanted the Thorns gone. They brought in Angel and gang to Wolfram & Hart knowing that they would get rid of the Thorns. Using Team Angel to do their dirty work. Oh, even better (I'm brainstorming here), the Sr. Partners and the Powers that Be are one and the same. They are neither good nor evil, they just maintain the balance between the two. And the Thorns (Evil) had become too powerful so the Partners (Powers that Be) bring in Angel(Good)to restore the balance. Series could have ended with Team Angel knowing that the fight would continue and they would continue to fight because the balance always needs to be maintained. As I said, I loved this episode, I just wish it could have been wrapped up a little better. I wish it could have been 2 hours. Heck, as long as I am making wishes, I wish this was only the Season Finale and we had a whole other season of Angel ahead of us. Oh well, c'est la vie.

  • May 20, 2004, 12:08 p.m. CST

    Look again, people: Not A Cliffhanger

    by Ryvver

    The show Angel - like Buffy before it - was music between silences; a painting in a frame hung on the extremely drab wall of television. The fact that the series ends just as Angel & Co. begin the biggest battle of their lives is not a cliffhanger; it's the frame to the painting. The show and the character of Angel have always been about fighting for something that is just out of reach. Angel can never undo the crimes of his past. No amount of lives saved onward into the future is going to erase those crimes. Because of that, there can never be a single point where he is 'redeemed'. Redemption is an ongoing process...present in every choice, every action a person makes. Just like life is a process. The purpose of life isn't to arrive somewhere (contrary to what most religions say); it's just to survive. To improve, learn, and grow. To do your best no matter how the odds are stacked against you. And that's the last image we get of Angel & Co. That's not a cliffhanger...that IS the 'resolution'. Keep fighting, keep going, keep surviving. Brilliant last image.

  • May 20, 2004, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Runningnun/Happy Endings

    by BTR1701

    You want a happy ending? How about Faith. She went from troubled teen to murderer to prison inmate and finished out as one of the heroes. Seems like a happy ending to me.

  • May 20, 2004, 1:08 p.m. CST

    Runningnun/Happy Endings

    by BTR1701

    You want a happy ending? How about Faith. She went from troubled teen to murderer to prison inmate and finished out as one of the heroes. Seems like a happy ending to me.

  • May 20, 2004, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Happy Endings...

    by Runningnun

    Faith must have been an oversight on Whedon's part. I do have a legit question...she's a prison escapee correct? She she's wanted for assault, battery, breaking and entering, maybe even murder, and breaking out of prison! Hardly a happy ending. Look, I'm not saying there should be the 'It's a wonderful Life" style ending. I'm not saying that there aren't some sad endings. Hey, I'll even cop to the Spidey idea of "This is not my job, it's my life and who I am, and I can't get close to anyone without fear of hurting them." But what on Earth did Xander ever do???? Finally, in season 6 he gets to singlehandedly save the world...but has a eye cut out the next year. What was that for??? I'll fully admit that Wes' death scene was handled beautifully. It was 180 degrees from the Ensign Red Shirt death of Anya. Look, how many of you have watched these shows and gone through the highs and lows, and really bought into these characters and stories? We've bought the dvd's, we've bought the coffemugs, books, videogames and action figures. And every time we think there may be happiness for one character, we get the rug pulled out from under us. it's like that girl you keep going back to, because you think 'This time it'll be different." and sure enough, 2 weeks later she's treating you like crap. No more.

  • May 20, 2004, 1:41 p.m. CST

    Highlights and Endings.... what a bow out!

    by xistwithout

    Well, as a fan of Joss Whedon, I have to say that the last two seasons of Angel have had slow starts, but the second halves have been OUT OF THIS WORLD Great! "The Girl in Question" may have been thought a "Buffy" episode, but read more "Fred". Ilyria is the best use of Amy Acker and this whole arc has kept me rivited. Wesley's death was perfectly Joss, and suprisingly, as someone who thought the show got yanked from our screens WAY TO SOON, I have to say that the ending makes me happy even if there are no TV movies, or Big Screen adventures..

  • Muha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha

  • May 20, 2004, 1:59 p.m. CST

    Follow ups (xeeds, MiserableRainGod)

    by SPY-der

    Everyone's entitled to their opinions on the way the show ended. Couple points to clarify: 1) Xeeds, Whedon was not the only writer on TWISTER. The running joke in Hollywood was that there were so many writers on TWISTER that some are still up there (implying "inside" the twister itself). Big Hollywood movies have many many writers on them. Watch the "story by" and "screenplay by" credits for a sense of just how many. 2) MiserableRainGod, the Circle itself was a last minute revelation, but the demons who comprised it were introduced over the course of the last season, or season 4. Sebastis and his blood-boy were introduced last season, I think. The guy who whacked Wesley was introduced previously in season 5. Sure, Joss didn't have much time to wrap it up and so it was obviously a little rushed. -- SPYder, out.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:21 p.m. CST

    Ryvver -- brilliant post. Thanks.

    by koomoReborn

  • May 20, 2004, 2:32 p.m. CST

    Re: Blake's 7 (for those young'uns who don't know what we're tal

    by koomoReborn

    Not only was it one of the most carefully plotted, dramatic, unexpected, and devastating endings in TV history, but the show itself might serve as a model for a (remotelly) possible return to AtS. After the second (or was it third?) season of Blake's 7, when the season finale leads up to (but doesn't show, as in AtS) a huge, apocolyptic fight ready to take place (in B7 it was a clash between two intrastellar space navies, with the B7 supership prominently involved), the next season picked up in a very languid, in-no-hurry-to-explain manner with many of the cast characters scattered on different worlds after the great battle, not knowing who if anyone had survived. It involved multiple storylines and standalone episodes of the remaining characters picking up the pieces, forming new relationships, eventually finding each other to some extent, adopting new leadership, etc. AtS could do the same and allow for loss of characters, some kind of explanation for the resumption of Angel and Spike's natural aging process, whatever. Unfortunately, it would not be nearly episodic enough to satisfy anyone, but one could dream. oF course, the magnificine ending of B7 was based on the fact that Blake was never found after the war and the show continued for two seasons without him. Until the ending. The unbelievable kick-ass ending that is worth it alone to suffer through all of the series weak episodes, weak special effects, and occasional meanderings just so you get the gran-daddy of all TV show pay-offs. I'm sure someone will be tempted to spoil it here, but I can't because I wouldn't want people vowing to spend the rest of their lives hunting me down.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:34 p.m. CST

    The WB

    by koomoReborn

    Spot-on comments earlier about the network's tendency to adopt series that hook initial viewers only (maybe not too late to get on board after a season) and then discard when costs don't justify a non-expanding audience. I'm still a sucker for Smallville, and Gilmour Girls forced dialogue can amuse at times, but it looks like within a year or two the WB will go the way of the SciFi channel for me -- nothing but an afterthought removed from my TV channel favorites list.

  • May 20, 2004, 2:41 p.m. CST

    by whatthefuk

  • May 20, 2004, 2:43 p.m. CST

    does any body realize nothing was explained?

    by whatthefuk

  • May 20, 2004, 2:43 p.m. CST


    by MiserableRainGod

    I know the characters who make up the black thorn, some of them, anyway, were introduced previously. But they weren't big deals then, and they weren't now. The Black Thorn, an evil secret society, was a good idea, but absolutely wasted on those 2 episodes...there simply was not enough time to convincingly introduce these characters. We never saw the individual members, or the whole group, do anything too evil. Sure, the Angel writers had a few characters say, "These guys are really, really evil" but they never once showed it. Oooh, the evil senator TALKED ON THE PHONE! The evil demon guy played RAQUETBALL! One drank demon blood. Puhlease. Evil? Hell no. Joss and company have introduced us to demons FAR more evil than these sweatband-wearing losers. Anya's frathouse slaughter was bloodier than anything these guys have ever done. It's like ME got together and said, "we have to end the show. Which demons are still alive? Well guess what? Now they're in an ancient secret society to, ya know, create evil and stuff. We'll have Angel join them, play some raquetball, and then kill them. And then, in a final shot, he fights a bunch of monsters and we show that he has to "go on fighting! Yay!" And lets face it; gigantic demons cannot walk down the streets of LA like they did in the episode - gigantic demons like that don't even exist on this plane of existence unless there is an ascension. The end, the go on fighting thing, was fine, just fine. Nice even. But the way they got to that point, with all this black thorn nonsense, was garbage, and I feel cheated.

  • May 20, 2004, 3:07 p.m. CST

    i mean 5 seasons and all of our questions are still out there

    by whatthefuk

    1). if the "the father will kill the son " was wrong then why did the god of anwsers(a huge cheese burger)tell wes it would come to be ... earth quake , fire , blood ....i thought this meant something and pushed wes's mental break down in season three . but atlas the god was lying? 2). what ever happened to the black panther in the white room ? it did something to gunn that was dropped from the story line .... 3) speaking of dropping ... what happened to raiden ? she can controll her powers and then sleeps with gunn , but this again is never talked about 4) robots fake looking like wes's father to get his books , but we never find out whos sending them ... 5). in season one , a group of children are saved by angel and lindsey , they are suposto be a part of the end ... 6). whats wolf ram and hearts fail safe that lindsey almost opens ? 7) lorne listened to every body sing in earlier episodes and even was about to slip the beans about wes in season two ("the english boy plays a big part...") 8). so , cordy gave angel a few visions but not all of them ... who gets them when someone dies ? 9). wont wolf ram and heart go after connor? does anyone know the anwsers ? please help me ....

  • May 20, 2004, 3:29 p.m. CST

    A heroic ending

    by Toby___Wong

    I watched the final ep again. What a heroic end. Still feel bad about Wes though because he was the most fallible around and still got the shaft. Thanks again, Joss and company. A powerful episode that ended the way it should have ended : heroic.

  • May 20, 2004, 3:37 p.m. CST

    WB, I hope your pets die!!!!!

    by lamme

    Great finale for a great series, but what a loss.... Seeing the team go hardcore (Lorne!) was absolutely stunning. How can a show this good get cancelled? This was the best season yet, fer chrissakes... A VERY big THANK YOU! to the whole ME-team for years of top quality television! Hope we'll have news about a new show and/or some TV-movies soon; I simply refuse to accept that this is the end of the Angel/Buffy-verse. Today's untimely finale promises so much more, this can't just be it. Can't imagine the (probably reality-) crap that WB will replace this show with. What a bunch of c@cksuckers....

  • May 20, 2004, 3:40 p.m. CST

    A heroic ending

    by Toby___Wong

    I watched the final ep again. What a heroic end. Still feel bad about Wes though because he was the most fallible around and still got the shaft. Thanks again, Joss and company. A powerful episode that ended the way it should have ended : heroic.

  • May 20, 2004, 3:58 p.m. CST


    by Big Papa

    I wonder, would both vampires with souls have to sign that contract to completely erase the Shanshu prophecy? Is Spike now going to become human (eventually) by default?******So now what's the deal with Angel killing Drogyn?? The spell wore off before Angel could finish explaining everything to the gang, and they never went back to it. Did Angel really kill Drogyn? And if so, I want to see everybody's reaction.

  • May 20, 2004, 4 p.m. CST

    Hamilton's Blood

    by Doggus47

    Personally, I believe the point of the ending was to show the team fighting. And if they win that battle, they will fight forever. On the other hand, Angel had Hamilton's blood in him so he could have the strength of Wolfram & Hart. Therefore, his success in the battle is very probable.

  • May 20, 2004, 4:28 p.m. CST

    ANGEL will not fade away

    by RogueScribner

    It was too short. I mean, SERIOUSLY. Act I was okay, but everything in Acts II and III moved way to fast. It was almost like watching a highlights reel. We should have seen a little more of everyone's last day, building up the character moments more. When the fight started, we should have seen everyone do their thing, get their glory moment. We barely saw Gunn fight. We barely saw Spike fight. Lindsey had like three awesome seconds with a sword and that was it for him. We never saw Illyria do her thing. Gah! I'm not an action junkie by any means, but you don't build up to the fight to end all fights and then not show it. Not cool. :| - - - - - - - - - - But, what we did get was all cool. There wasn't anything in this ep I didn't like, except for the running time. (GRRRRRRR) - - - - - - - - - - Angel's last stand ruled. Angel lost so much over the course of the series. Buffy. Doyle. Cordelia. Connor. Fred. Humanity. Every season his problems just increased. Personal vendettas. An entire demon law firm out to get him. His son being born only to be taken away. His son returning only to be turned against him. Learning that all the losses he experienced was all part of an evil plot. Learning that his mission was fake. Seeing how prevalent evil is in the world. Being forced to make a deal with the devil to give his son a fighting chance at life. Battling apathy and corruption in the belly of the beast. But he came out on top. He took up his mission again, Powers That Be or no. It's not about who's pulling the strings. It's about the effect you have on people, the mark you leave on the world. And Angel was determined to make that mark. - - - - - - - - - - The final scene sums it all up. The gang (those who survived and didn't split anyway) is gathered there, already battle worn, but refusing to quit. They are hopelessly outnumbered. There's a big honkin' dragon in the area. These four people were like the four Hobbits standing up to the entire army of Mordor. Sure, they were probably scared (well, maybe not Illyria), but they were not going to run. They were willing to sacrifice their lives to make a statement: good will not go quietly from this world. Whether they lived or died is beside the point (though I wager they all died). The series ended right where it needed to. With Team Angel fighting the good fight against hopeless odds. That sums it up right there. - - - - - - - - - - And now I'm depressed. That is the end of the last great television show. SMALLVILLE is good, but it can never replace the likes of BUFFY, ANGEL, and FIREFLY. Now what else is there? Nothing. I feel like Angel after Darla was sired in S2 and then Holland showed him the home office. I've lost sight of the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, I'll have a television epiphany soon. Or maybe I'll just start reading more books. ;) - - - - - - - - - - This series ended as it should have. It just ended too soon. Screw the WB. They may not be as bad as Fox, but they are still bad. Freakin' sitcoms are replacing AtS next season. Gah. Oh well. This season may not have been the most consistent in terms of overall arc, but the quality was still there. ANGEL ended on a high note. All series should be so lucky. L8r

  • May 20, 2004, 5:58 p.m. CST

    Here's my 6th season premise. What do you guys think? A decent f

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    SEASON ARC: The minions of the Senior Partners are starting to overtake L.A.. They have been ordered by the SP to "clean house" not only of the W&H L.A. office but all of L.A.. The entire season deals with this minion army, which is growing by the day, undermining human society in L.A.. But, strangely and funnily enough, most Los Angelinos continue to be blissfully unaware of this creeping end to their society. REGULAR CAST: Angel, Spike, Illyria, Gunn and Anne. GUEST/RECURRING CAST: Eve, Connor, Lorne, the werewolf chick, and Wesley. UH, HOW DOES WESLEY RETURN? He doesn't. He's dead and remains that way. What happens is that Illyria starts seeing Wesley -- only she can see him. But it's soon apparent that this is not actually Wesley but someone or something else appearing to Illyria in Wesley's image. This all has something to do with plans that the Senior Partners have for her. OTHER THINGS TO DEAL WITH: 1. Angel has Cordelia's vision power, so this should be addressed. 2. The fact that he apparently signed away his claim to the Shansui Prophesy. RELATIONSHIPS: Hook up Gunn and Anne. They should have been a couple instead of Gunn and Fred, anyway. WHAT WILL BE THE NEW SET? Since the Fang Gang was on top of the world at W&H, up high in that tall building, it might be ironic to stick them underground this time. Angel and Illyria hide out in the elaborate sewer system, where they would befriend others who are hiding from the SP minion army. Another regular locale would be Anne's teen shelter (and the teens would be involved in the fight against the minions). OK, BUT HOW DO THEY SURVIVE IN THE CLIFFHANGER? They weren't killed. The minion army simply captured them. In the premiere, we see that Angel, Spike, Illyria and Gunn all survived -- they are being held someplace.

  • May 20, 2004, 6:22 p.m. CST

    "Let's get to work" No QUESTION they won that final fight and c

    by SpikeTBB


  • May 20, 2004, 6:39 p.m. CST

    The end

    by williamthebl00dy

    For me that was the perfect ending. Besides the part of it ending. I loved the ep. Besides the fact that it was the last one. It would of been cool though if Willow appeared when that old wizard guy said,"I mean, really. I crap better magic than this.

  • May 20, 2004, 6:40 p.m. CST

    The end

    by williamthebl00dy

    For me that was the perfect ending. Besides the part of it ending. I loved the ep. Besides the fact that it was the last one. It would of been cool though if Willow appeared when that old wizard guy said,"I mean, really. I crap better magic than this.

  • May 20, 2004, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Happy endings

    by BTR1701

    "I do have a legit question...she's a prison escapee correct? She she's wanted for assault, battery, breaking and entering, maybe even murder, and breaking out of prison! Hardly a happy ending."***She's also most likely presumed dead, lost in the sinkhole that was Sunnydale. Her path to a new life is free and clear. Not bad as far as endings go.

  • May 20, 2004, 7:28 p.m. CST


    by ChorleyFM

    The only series finale i can compare it to in terms of quality is Blackadder goes Forth. Illyria's knock out blow, Spike's poem, Lorne being a badass PI.It was a little rushed, but nowhere near as much as the last Buffy. With what was iven to them in terms of limited time in planning it was brilliant. It could only have been bettered if seeds for the circle of the black thorn were established earlier in the season. Thank you Joss and M.E.,by the way can anyone tell me if the M.E. monster did anything at the end, like the Buffy Finale when it was 3D.

  • May 20, 2004, 7:37 p.m. CST

    Why Xander lost his eye.

    by 81666

    joss whedon has stated he has bad vision in one eye. and xander was the most like him, able to see and no all but not have the power. that's why he didn't have as much of a big leap of character for him, he was an everyday joe type. he should've bought it, i think to make his character mean a bit more.

  • May 20, 2004, 7:59 p.m. CST

    JackBurton2004 & fisher&sons - are you retards in love??

    by GrumpyCal

    First of all shows CAN and often do (due to a lack of constraints) go out on top - who the hell told you otherwise? Idiot. Secondly it wasn't really a true cliffhanger ending - it just left alot to the imagination - remember what that is? Anyway - this show was outstanding. Mostly from the get go on par with it's parent show and definately with it's own identity. Bring on the TV (or cinematic?) movies!!!!

  • May 20, 2004, 8:03 p.m. CST

    A wonderful show, and you will be missed!

    by Buff_Angel

    Thank you, Joss and Company for 8 years of the most thought provoking and well written television shows on TV. You can go out knowing that your fans love you and will be here waiting with bells on when you do decide to continue with the Buffyverse. As far as THE WB, what the hell are you thinking? I saw your so-called lineup for next fall posted on the WB website, and I have to say...You are DAMN FOOLS! Replacing Angel with a Jeff Foxworthy show? Can we say has-been, passe, FLOP? His day has passed....ABOUT A FREAKIN' DECADE AGO!! I'm guessing 3 weeks into the schedule you will rue to day you made such an assinine decision as canceling Angel. It's true, what goes around, comes around. Joss, David, James, Alexis, J.A., Amy, Charisma, Andy, Christian, Mercedes and the rest of the gang...Thank you for being part of our family for the last 5 years. We will always love you.

  • May 20, 2004, 8:11 p.m. CST

    Fucking Joss Made Me Cry...

    by Van Damned

    Wesley's death scene with Fred (yes, the illusion of Fred. Shut up) was a goddamn tearjerker. I don't get emotional easily. The last time I did, I was drunk watching 'Independance Day' and Bill Pullman was giving his "not go gently into the night" speech. I wasn't even drunk this time. "Would you like the lie now?" "Yes, please." Fucking Joss.

  • May 20, 2004, 8:22 p.m. CST

    Why Taking out Blackthorn was a big deal

    by jocutus

    Although these Blackthorn guys didn't seem like much of a threat right now, they were all very powerful or connected. They weren't causing an apocolypse today, but they were the guys who could have each been the future Big Bads of seasons 6-10. Angel did something that gets talked about a lot in the Buffyverse but rarely ever happens: He made a pre-emptive strike. He took the fight to the bad guys. The demon-senator never gets to be president and reign chaos down on the world. The other demons don't get their ritual sacrifice to ascend to higher powers, etc, etc. That was the big idea. The Angel gang took care of five years worth of world-ending schemes in one night because they decided not to wait 'til the last minute for a change. Good work, guys! And a great ep all around in my opinion.

  • May 20, 2004, 9:24 p.m. CST

    A little borrowed Dialog for Illyria

    by hamnspam

    Did that Illyria-Wesely death scene ring a little familiar to anyone else? Seemed an awful lot to me like the scene in World According to Garp when Robin Williams gets shot. "My Love..."

  • May 20, 2004, 10:09 p.m. CST

    Are they doin the 6 Angel TV movies? please, for the love of Rab

    by Johnny FilmMaker

    or am i to assume the fucking armies of middle-earth beat the shit outta Angel Investigations Inc and none of them survived? i just cant live with that. If they do a movie, i swear to christ, i hope an army of Slayers shows up..i mean, its THE Apocalypse, right? they would

  • May 20, 2004, 10:36 p.m. CST

    My take on the ending (Spoiler Warning)

    by superdavehenry

    First off--Harry, you may want to fix this site; I'm constantly having trouble loading it, and I always have to refresh the page several times before it loads right. Okay, on with the post. Something that everyone seems to have forgotten (or at least failed to mention thus far), is that during the final battle, Angel still had the strength and "ancient power" of the Senior Partners flowing through his veins, thanks to his feeding on Hamilton (in true Anne Rice style). Now, if Angel has the strength of the Partners at his disposal, doesn't it make sense that he should be able to handle anything they throw at him? I believe that he survived, and was even victorious, becuase of this simple fact. At the very least, the battle should end in stalemate, like when you try to play tic-tac-toe with yourself, becuase this is basically what Wolfram and Hart were doing. The Partners, in their rage, moved too soon against Angel, and must have suffered greatly for their mistake. Illyria most likely survived as well, seeing as how hours earlier she had taken a severe beating from Partner-charged Hamilton, and was still back in great ass-kicking shape in no time. I believe that Hamilton meant to kill her and failed; therefore the logic that assumes that Hamilton's power is equal or greater to the power of the demon army also suggests that Illyria should be able to survive such an onslaught, especially when fighting alongside Hamilton-fueled Angel. Spike survied because he was pre-destined to. When Angel signed away his right to inherit the Shanshu prophecy, it became clear (to me, anyway), that it was never meant for him in the first place. From the time that it was written, it was always about Spike. We know from watching the show that The Powers that Be are basically in control most of the time (witness Jasmine manipulating events all the way back to Darla's ressurection in season one--suggesting that even the Senior Partners themselves are subject to the will of the Powers--and she was just a rogue with her own agenda!), regardless of Angel's convictions about free will. Therefore Spike will endure simply because he must, in order to become human and fulfil the prophecy. Though I suppose he could fall in battle and then be reborn as human, much as he was previously reborn as a ghost. Gunn is the only one I'm not sure of. As Illyria pointed out, he was severely wounded. I can only hope that if he died, that it was indeed a memorable ten minutes ("All I ask is that when it's my time, let it be for something; not of something"--Ghost [Enter the Matrix]). So where did they go from there? Most likely they got the hell out of Dodge and split up, although Illyria probably stuck with Spike, seeing as he's the closest thing she has to a friend, now that Wesley has passed on. I'd love to see a "sixth season" of the show in some other media, probably comic books, much in the same way DS9 continued in novel form. In fact, Joss was quoted as saying that he was interested in continuing the story of these characters in comic book form, especially should the TV movies not work out. I don't normally read comics, but I would certainly read those :)

  • May 20, 2004, 10:43 p.m. CST

    Logic in this ep (Spoiler Warning Again)

    by superdavehenry

    I have to admit that I have some qualms over some of the logic in this episode, and most of it has some connection to Wesley. First of all, he seemed woefully under-equipped to deal with Vale. With all the resources at Angel's disposal, couldn't he have juiced Wes up with some of that same type of mojo that Giles had at the end of Buffy S6 when he took on Willow? Surely Vale isn't as powerful as she was at that point. At the very least, couldn't Vale have been taking out by compromising his i.v., much like the poisoning of Arch-Duke Sebassis? Secondly, as has been mentioned earlier, where were Wesley's guns? I'm not sure if I buy the whole "Wesley wanting to die theory." I just don't think that's in character. I think that Joss wanted to kill somebody off (always with the killing somebody off), and Wesley was the logical choice, since he had already lost the love of his life anyway. But seriously--the guns, man. Where are your guns? Thirdly, I understand the theatrical nature of swords and axes, and why the characters are always using them. What I don't understand is why they don't use some kind of armor as well. Even a simple shirt of chain mail under his sweater might have spared Wesley his life.

  • May 20, 2004, 11:08 p.m. CST

    The one thing I would have changed about the finale.

    by Whedon

    I would have switched Spike's mission with Wes's and let Wes try to save the baby. That really would have really shown him going full circle in his life leading back to season 3 when he stole baby Conner, which seemed to start his downward spiral that ultimately led to his death. Then again maybe not as it played out fantastic that way it was.

  • May 20, 2004, 11:59 p.m. CST

    Holy shit. "Blake's 7" bringing back old memories.

    by AllmightyTallest

    I used to watch that show on public broadcast t.v. when I was little. It used to be on Saturday mornings. Avon ruled.

  • May 21, 2004, 12:17 a.m. CST

    Thanks Joss

    by thewolfreport

    From Season 1 episode 9 (the last with the late Glenn Quinn) comes the following: Doyle: It doesn't seem fair ya know, you have to (to Angel) save all the helpless types around here now you gotta fight the apocalypse as well? Angel responds: You fight the good fight whichever way you can. And as all Angel fans know that's how Doyle died. Fighting the good fight, however he could. The finale held true to the ideals of season one. Did they live? Did they die? I have my own imagination and thank you Joss for understanding that most of your fans do too. We can imagine and some of us will write our own versions. I'd like to think the real fans are like me and did not want a "Friends" like tidy ending. The story, fight, life goes on and we face each day because none of it matters. (yes I'm stealing from "Epiphany" though I am paraphrasing) there are no great victories...that's why every little thing we do matters. We may not be able to change the entire world but we can change the world we live in. Thanks again Joss

  • May 21, 2004, 12:19 a.m. CST

    Joss is writing Astonishing XMen and it is wonderful!!!

    by mara47

    Wolverine reminds me of Spike.

  • May 21, 2004, 12:38 a.m. CST


    by fantasticpoof

    Spike: "And in terms of a plan?", Angel: "We fight", Spike: "A bit more specific?", Angel: "Well personally, I kinda wanna slay the dragon"...and you KNOW he did

  • May 21, 2004, 1:19 a.m. CST

    Possible Answers to Posed Questions

    by superdavehenry

    Well, whatthefuk, I

  • May 21, 2004, 4:52 a.m. CST

    It's your choice.

    by proper

    Some cool posts here today.It can end there or you can imagine whatever you like (until further notice).TV is now more or less done for this generation.Everything else is stop gap killing time TV.Lorne earned his tortured artist,jaded seen it all stripes.Wes died in a stiff upper lip manner.The rest is up too you.It wasn't a cliffhanger if you are prepared to let it lie.It wasnt a X Files question with a question ending(learned professor:>).When Angel found out who the resident evils were he went to work.Loose ends are just that,and can wait(irrelevent for the job at hand).Here is the test.Will we respect what we have?.Although i would like to see more,I'm happy with what i've been given.I'd hate to see this tarnished like other genre shows/films and become a embarassment to their former selves.Time will tell i suppose ;-)Dont wait for J.W he has other things to do,dont ask the actors everytime about it and maybe one day we will be surprised.And lets try and stay away from bitching sessions when the inevitable rumours come around.If you know you know,if you don't you don't.

  • May 21, 2004, 6:38 a.m. CST

    Bye bye Buffyverse

    by neemz

    Does this mean other shows will now get some decent coverage on this site?

  • May 21, 2004, 10:53 a.m. CST

    (Re: Bye Bye Buffyverse) What Shows Deserve the Coverage AICN Gi

    by atomheartbrother

    bloody hell man, if you've got any soul you should be lamenting this damn shows death even if you never gave two shits about it because now... tv is just plain bad for you. life as zero sum conflict entertainments, fairy godmother bullshit maeover shows, and cooe cutter crapfests (yeah... my ey is fuced), it's all shit guaranteed to suc your brains out through your eyeballs or their money bac. fuc it all.

  • May 21, 2004, 11:42 a.m. CST

    The End

    by JT Styler

    The Styler is here. I've got to be honest, while this has not been in my opinion the best of seasons and that this season is rather overrated, Angel season 5 has still been a pleasure to watch. I want to congratulate Whedon on pulling out a worthy season and series finale despite the painful and surprising cancellation. The cracks in the show were beginning to show as in Buffy Season 7. But trust in Whedon. He delivered with Chosen and he did it again two nights ago. Everyone was great as y'all have already said but gotta give Lorne, the unsung hero, his props. He's had precious little to do in the last two seasons but he was great yesterday. People will debate the merits and demerits of this season as with any other Whedonverse show season but tonight I'll be thanking the Lord above for a man called Joss Whedon. Thank you for Buffy and Angel - 8 years of great genre TV that made me proud to be a geek. These shows along with Farscape are the pinnacle of recent genre TV. Long live the Buffyverse. The Styler has spoken, heed my words.

  • May 21, 2004, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Angel didn't need Buffy's help

    by superdavehenry

    I have to say, I'm a bit dismayed by all the talk of how our heroes should have gotten help from Buffy, or Willow, or the slayerettes, etc. People, this is ANGEL. Not BUFFY. BUFFY had its time. I, for one, would have felt cheated if Angel had gone crawling back to Italy begging for Buffy's help. That's not what the show was about, and that's not what Angel was about. This was his bed that he had made, and he was the one who was going to sleep in it. In fact, I daresay Angel didn't NEED Buffy's help, and by that I mean both Angel the character and "Angel" the show. In my opinion, AtS has more than surpassed Buffy as a better, smarter, and more adult show. To have Buffy or Willow (or even Cordelia) swoop in to save the day would have been cheap, and it would have been insulting.

  • May 21, 2004, 1:45 p.m. CST

    When Fanboys get cameras...

    by Danniboy1138

    Okay, so maybe this is shameless pimping. But, we made this little movie after watching MANY of our own favorite shows get the axe before their time (Angel included). I'm sure I'll get razzed for pushing something here...but what the hell... A brother has to try.

  • May 21, 2004, 1:56 p.m. CST


    by andymc

    i missed the show how does wes die and how does harmony betray them? thanks

  • May 21, 2004, 2:03 p.m. CST


    by andymc

    i missed the show how did wes die and how did harmony betray them?

  • May 21, 2004, 3:18 p.m. CST


    by JackDonkey

    I like the fact that wes died, and I think it was inevitable that Gunn was going to as well. Angel is a dark show and people dying as opposed to happy endings are why I prefer it to the other crap on tv.

  • May 21, 2004, 4:18 p.m. CST

    Leave'em wanting more!

    by downtown393

    Better to leave now then make us want them to end it. Thank you Joss for your creative mind and your artful story telling. Thank you for letting me have an hour each week where I can escape the wear and tear of my ho hum life and enter an exciting new world that makes me think. Wow. How many shows can say they make you think? So thank you again Joss. Please don't fade away on us. I will be inline for opening of Serenity. Finally, the WB. You have lost me as a viewer. I will not be watching Smallville next year. The WB is finished to me. By canceling a show this compelling, they have demonstrated they have no idea what the public wants. More Reba?!?!? No. So to take a page out of the WB's playbook. "Thank you" WB. From your friends who once supported your network. Thank you and goodnight.

  • May 21, 2004, 4:31 p.m. CST

    I agree with you but...

    by CynicKil must remember The WB decided to cancel "Angel" kinda at the last minute. Sure they said they wanted to give the creators time to wrap up the series properly but in reality they just didn't have enough time. We all know it would've beeen better if they had at least 1 more year to do right by the show. They just inherited W&H this year! I do agree about Wes. No way should their best character have died. This on top of Cordy (who possibly outlasted her usefulness) and Fred. It would be nice to see a theatrical movie (If David Boreanes can keep his weight down. I hate to nit-pick but...) because "Angel" is so cool and deeply written that it constantly puts other movies in the genre to shame. Protesters should fight for that.

  • May 21, 2004, 10:09 p.m. CST

    The End of an Era

    by floppybunnyyhead

    I was turned on to Joss Whedon's quirky little show Buffy the Vampire Slayer during season two. Fortunately, I was able was able to see repeats and tapes that friends had made. Suddenly, I was watching Becoming and seeing the very fabric of my reality being penetrated once again by a television program. I felt like this during the first season of Twin Peaks. Brilliant acting, risky themes, fearless storytelling. You could see during the end of season two of BTVS that no one character was safe. Any of them could die at any time. Now, we are at the end of the Whedon TV era, and I have to say that I believe that these are the best two television shows ever to grace these airwaves. No other show has made me laugh, cry, cheer, scream, panic, or freak out like these shows. However, the better of the two shows has been Angel. There were ups and downs, as there are with every show, but Angel ended with the ultimate. There have been many moments in these two programs where I have cried: the vows of remembrance in "I Will Remember You", Anya's frantic and utterly tragic confusion over mortality in "The Body", and in just a few episodes, Winifred Burkle's question 'Why can't I stay?' during "A Hole in the World", and the lie that Wesley Wyndam-Price wanted during his last moments in "Not Fade Away". Wesley has been my favorite character since the third season when his dilemma began, and he has only gotten better as the show has gone on, and may he rest in piece. Whatever these characters may have as far as a future is concerned, they should rest easy in the assurance that they helped to create such a brilliant show. As a final note, the real big bad of this final season was not some monster, or oncoming apocalypse. It was the executives at The WB. May they burn in hell.

  • May 22, 2004, 11:23 a.m. CST


    by Devil'sOwn

    What the fuck're we gonna do now?!? Game over, man! GAME OVER!! Guess this makes more time for AICN... greeeaaaat.

  • May 22, 2004, 7:28 p.m. CST

    So Angel's slot is being filled out by "Blue Collar TV" and "The

    by Big Bad Clone

    I am fucking furious! I could see them doing another Creek/One Tree Hill or another stab at an action show in a simliar vien of Tarzan or Smallville. Or, shit, another Charmed-esque show. They still would have been shit but this shit makes that shit look like gold shit. SHIT!

  • May 23, 2004, 3:48 p.m. CST

    the signiture

    by PatriciaL

    I didn't catch it but someone on the feedback site at WB said that if you look carefully Angel signed Argel instead of Angel and then commented to Conner about his penmanship.

  • May 25, 2004, 7:24 p.m. CST


    by Kozmic_girl

    Gee now we get to watch fine programming like Class Reunion where people can't stop living in the past and move on from high school. I guess Buffy and Angel couldn't compare to that.

  • May 25, 2004, 7:26 p.m. CST


    by Kozmic_girl

    Gee now we get to watch fine programming like Class Reunion where people can't stop living in the past and move on from high school. I guess Buffy and Angel couldn't compare to that.

  • May 28, 2004, 7:12 a.m. CST

    damn fine ending

    by dvdfreakshow

    I'm still bitter over the ending of Quantum Leap from way back when, so I was quite happy to have a cliffhanger ending like this. Open ended is better than a black screen text which would have read: "Angel never got his soul"

  • June 9, 2004, 6:10 a.m. CST

    Thanks for everything

    by AngelicDevil

    Just had the series finale in the UK. Of course I'll always want more from the angel/buffyverse but if that was the end then it'll do for me. Everyone who watched the episode knows exactly what happened when the last scene cut out. And i definitely prefer that to any other ending Joss could have given me.

  • June 9, 2004, 8:25 a.m. CST

    UK saw it last night

    by JimboLo

    My first thought after it ended: "Is that it?" But to be fair, some fantastic stuff in there, esp. Lyndsey's death which was a top scene. WB's little 'cheers, but fuck you" made me chuckle.

  • June 13, 2004, 7:23 a.m. CST

    Angel till the end

    by lottie276

    my god!!! that was amazing!!! i cant believe Joss ended it like that! how annoying!!! and EVEN IN ENGLAND!!! they still played the 'thank you' from the WB!!! how hypocritical!!! i hate the WB!!! how could they be so selfcentered as to pretend they still like the show, even though they are responsible for its ending!!!! anyway...i loved this show and Buffy. now they are both over i just wanted to say thank you to Joss for all the hours of TV entertainment and kick-ass fighting. they were great shows, and will be missed. a lot. thank you.