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A Rabbi speaks out to defend THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST!
Hey folks, Harry here... This is a different sort of article here at AICN. This is a very serious article, written by someone who has given a great deal of thought to some extreme issues that have been raised regarding THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST. In many ways this is an opinion and a take on the controversy surrounding numerous allegations about the film, that I haven't seen discussed from this particular point of view. Discussion is really heating up on this title, figured this was a voice that should be heard.
Why Mel Owes One To The Jews
Rabbi Daniel Lapin
Toward Tradition
Two weeks before Mel Gibson's Passion flashes onto two thousand screens, online ticket merchants are reporting that up to half their total sales are for advance purchases for Passion. One Dallas multiplex has reserved all twenty of its screens for The Passion. I am neither a prophet nor a movie critic. I am merely an Orthodox rabbi using ancient Jewish wisdom to make three predictions about The Passion.
One, Mel Gibson and Icon Productions will make a great deal of money. Those distributors who surrendered to pressure from Jewish organizations and passed on Passion will be kicking themselves, while Newmarket Films will laugh all the way to the bank. Theater owners are going to love this film.
Two, Passion will become famous as the most serious and substantive Biblical movie ever made. It will be one of the most talked-about entertainment events in history, it is currently on the cover of Newsweek and Vanity Fair.
My third prediction is that the faith of millions of Christians will become more fervent as Passion uplifts and inspires them. Passion will propel vast numbers of unreligious Americans to embrace Christianity. The movie will one day be seen as a harbinger of America's third great religious reawakening.
Those Jewish organizations that have squandered both time and money futilely protesting Passion, ostensibly in order to prevent pogroms in Pittsburgh, can hardly be proud of their performance. They failed at everything they attempted. They were hoping to ruin Gibson rather than enrich him. They were hoping to suppress Passion rather than promote it. Finally, they were hoping to help Jews rather than harm them.
Here I digress slightly to exercise the Jewish value of "giving the benefit of the doubt" by discounting cynical suggestions growing in popularity, that the very public nature of their attack on Gibson exposed their real purpose-fundraising. Apparently, frightening wealthy widows in Florida about anti-Semitic thugs prowling the streets of America causes them to open their pocketbooks and refill the coffers of groups with little other raison d'être. But let's assume they were hoping to help Jews.
However, instead of helping the Jewish community, they have inflicted lasting harm. By selectively unleashing their fury only on wholesome entertainment that depicts Christianity, in a positive light, they have triggered anger, hurt, and resentment. Hosting the Toward Tradition Radio Show and speaking before many audiences nationwide, I enjoy extensive communication with Christian America and what I hear is troubling. Fearful of attracting the ire of Jewish groups that are so quick to hurl the "anti-Semite" epithet, some Christians are reluctant to speak out. Although one can bludgeon resentful people into silence, behind closed doors emotions continue to simmer.
I consider it crucially important for Christians to know that not all Jews are in agreement with their self-appointed spokesmen. Most American Jews, experiencing warm and gracious interactions each day with their Christian fellow-citizens, would feel awkward trying to explain why so many Jewish organizations seem focused on an agenda hostile to Judeo-Christian values. Many individual Jews have shared with me their embarrassment that groups, ostensibly representing them, attack Passion but are silent about depraved entertainment that encourages killing cops and brutalizing women. Citing artistic freedom, Jewish groups helped protect sacrilegious exhibits such as the anti-Christian feces extravaganza presented by the Brooklyn Museum four years ago. One can hardly blame Christians for assuming that Jews feel artistic freedom is important only when exercised by those hostile toward Christianity. However, this is not how all Jews feel.
From audiences around America, I am encountering bitterness at Jewish organizations insisting that belief in the New Testament is de facto evidence of anti-Semitism. Christians heard Jewish leaders denouncing Gibson for making a movie that follows Gospel accounts of the Crucifixion long before any of them had even seen the movie. Furthermore, Christians are hurt that Jewish groups are presuming to teach them what Christian Scripture "really means." Listen to a rabbi whom I debated on the Fox television show hosted by Bill O'Reilly last September. This is what he said, "We have a responsibility as Jews, as thinking Jews, as people of theology, to respond to our Christian brothers and to engage them, be it Protestants, be it Catholics, and say, look, this is not your history, this is not your theology, this does not represent what you believe in."
He happens to be a respected rabbi and a good one, but he too has bought into the preposterous proposition that Jews will reeducate Christians about Christian theology and history. Is it any wonder that this breathtaking arrogance spurs bitterness?
Many Christians who, with good reason, have considered themselves to be Jews' best (and perhaps, only) friends also feel bitter at Jews believing that Passion is revealing startling new information about the Crucifixion. They are incredulous at Jews thinking that exposure to the Gospels in visual form will instantly transform the most philo-Semitic gentiles of history into snarling, Jew-hating predators.
Christians are baffled by Jews who don't understand that President George Washington, who knew and revered every word of the Gospels, was still able to write that oft-quoted beautiful letter to the Touro Synagogue in Newport, offering friendship and full participation in America to the Jewish community.
One of the directors of the AJC recently warned that Passion "could undermine the sense of community between Christians and Jews that's going on in this country. We're not allowing the film to do that." No sir, it isn't the film that threatens the sense of community; it is the arrogant and intemperate response of Jewish organizations that does so.
Jewish organizations, hoping to help but failing so spectacularly, refutes all myths of Jewish intelligence. How could their plans have been so misguided and the execution so inept?
Ancient Jewish wisdom teaches that nothing confuses one's thinking more than being in the grip of the two powerful emotions, love and hate. The actions of these Jewish organizations sadly suggest that they are in the grip of a hatred for Christianity that is only harming Jews.
Today, peril threatens all Americans, both Jews and Christians. Many of the men and women in the front lines find great support in their Christian faith. It is strange that Jewish organizations, purporting to protect Jews, think that insulting allies is the preferred way to carry out that mandate.
A ferocious Rottweiler dog in your suburban home will quickly estrange your family from the neighborhood. For those of us in the Jewish community who cherish friendship with our neighbors, some Jewish organizations have become our Rottweilers. God help us.Radio talk show host, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, is president of
Toward Tradition, a bridge-building
organization providing a voice for all Americans who defend
the Judeo-Christian values vital for our nation’s survival.BY THE WAY Harry Here-- Rabbi Daniel Lapin is a well known zealot type is known to do some pretty wild right wing things that I completely do not approve of. I don't endorse him, but in this particular case I think what he has to say is of value.
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...for a rabbi.
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Makes a lot of very good points. Unfortunately, I forsee this article being immediately decried as racist against Jews, with vicious attacks on the writer.
I don't get anti-Semitism, myself. If you're a Christian, how can you hate Jews, knowing that Jesus, the apostles, and just about all of the early church were Jewish? -
fantastic article! when is someone finally going to speak out against PC? free speech is attacked from the right in the name of "homeland security" blah blah and also from the left in the name of PC. it's refreshing to hear someone actually express an honest to god opinion rather than chanting some PC mantra. "bludgeoned into silence" as the author said... well said! thanks for contributing ! and go mel!
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very thoughtful and articulate
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After seeing this film at BNAT, I can say that I never once felt it was an anti-semetic work. However, not being jewish it could be said that I was biased to this opnion. After reading this articulate, well thought out article by a clearly educated and upstanding Jewish citizen, it is encouraging to me to think that this film will be embraced by Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, and Hindus alike. Just to clear, I am not a practicing Christian, though I did grow up going to sunday school, but this is a powerful film that will move large numbers of folk to tears. I can't wait to see it again and hopefully, hear more intelligent discussion not based on anger. Getting angry over art only proves art right.
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'Cause he hit the nail on the head.
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it is encouraging to hear that disagreement with others, and the embracing of one's faith, is not automatically cause for sudden accusations of anti-semitism. The occasion of having one's own ox gored is particularly nettlesome when faith is involved, and it is a tragic fact of history that all faiths have stained themselves with the blood of their neighbors - some more than others - by insisting that they are nearer to God, and all others are therefore condemned. I appreciate the rabbi's comments, and his attempts at reconciliation, and I would like to add one more prediction to his list: that this film will foster the kind of dialogue that will tear down whatever walls may still exist between our faith communities, and replace them with bridges that will increase understanding and friendship. Is this too much to ask?
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Wish all of the writing for AICN was this well thought-out. Great job, Rabbi Lapin. Hopefully cooler heads like you will prevail throughout this movie's release.
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Whether you agree or disagree with the man(and whats wrong with you if you do?!?), you have to admit he makes some strong, intelligent points. And you know whats crazy? He didn't have to use the "F" word or call anybody names to do it...wow. Some talkbackers I know need to take not. But just wait...the angry anti-religon people will be here soon to start freaking out...
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Sorry, my spelling bad. Yo.
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Feb 12, 2004 8:06:50 PM CST
"Passion will propel vast numbers of unreligious Americans to em
by fitzcarraldo2
Oh, good. America doesn't have nearly enough religious nutcases.
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That was the lamest excuse for an argument I have heard in a while bahamut. Obviously no respect for others religon or there deeply held beliefs. Try and open your mind to accepting other peoples beliefs and stop saying things like christians are uneducated. In case you hadn't noticed most Americans (according to the latest Reuters poll) are christian, or at least claim to be(thats another show though folks!), and I find it hard to believe none of them are "educated". Maybe your definition of educated is that they don't believe in what YOU think Bahamut. Thats the problem with you people. You are as close-minded and ignorant as the people you call close-minded and ignorant.
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Feb 12, 2004 8:13:53 PM CST
so Bahamut, who exactly appointed you a spokesman for Jews every
by the shyster
no doubt you have the freedom to express your right for free speech, but you refer to christians, catholics and the like... as if they all felt the same way.
You are missing one of the main points of the rabbi's article
and that is the actions and words of some do not represent the actions and words of all.
You dolt. -
Feb 12, 2004 8:26:17 PM CST
Bahamut kun, I had many things to respond to in your post...
by raw_bean
Bu they all boiled down to one real point: generalities and labels. You use a lot of them. They are a way of de-humanising people, much as anti-semites through history have done with Jewish people. However, I'll not debate most of your points, because I don't feel qualified; I'm atheist, as are most of the people I know. Indeed, the only really religious people I know are Muslim. However, one thing you said I DO feel able to repeat and comment on: "even when the Germans went after the Polish, they were still anti-Semitic". This is a perfect example of what worries me and frightens me about your attitudes as I read them. My grandmother is German. She is not (and was not) anti-semitic (nor for that matter, did she go after the polish). When you reduce a whole plethora of different individual human beings to one group with one label attached, and attribute that arbitrary group with a single attitude or characteristic, you only help prejudice, fear and discrimination to grow. It is exactly the method that has been historically used to de-humanise Jewish people in peoples minds, and every other people that have been persecuted. People slam on political correctness, and it can be used to levels of great ridiculousness or cause great harm, but statements like yours are in dire need of some if you wish to avoid stirring up anger and prejudice.
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But I still win, because I drew from my real life for an example! :P
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Feb 12, 2004 8:38:21 PM CST
JESUS...IS....BACK !! HE'S PISSED OFF AND HE'S NOT GONNA TAKE I
by the shyster
Fuck You, Pilate !! "KABLAMMMMM"
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The thing you don't seem to understand is, the film is basically what Christians already believe. The story does not make Jews out to be the bad guys, just human. Some followed him, some didn't, some loved him, some hated him. The Romans arrested him because they were hearing stories about a new King and they thought maybe he was starting a rebellion. They were thinking about letting him go but the people that had a problem with him said no. Anyone that blames Jews for what happened are idiots (usually just racists looking for a reason). Regular Christians believe the Jews are Gods Chosen people and they don't have any hostility towards them as a group. This whole situation is a joke (much like when the Christians get upset about other movies) because it just advertises the film and makes the ones fighting it look petty and whiney.
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Circumcision is extremely harmful for one's sexual health. It causes extreme suffering to the baby and could even kill. It seriously reduces plasure and comfort in sex, for both man and his mate. There is no way to justify this barbaric procedure. Check the website JEWS AGAINST CIRCUMCISION: http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/
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Feb 12, 2004 8:50:29 PM CST
Bahamut, if no Christians stood up for Jews, their culture would
by scythe1138
By all rights you should get on your bony liberal knees and thank God for the "uneducated" Christians. You focus on the negative side of an incident like the Catholic ignorance of the Holocaust and discount any facts that would prove your pathetic argument faulty. The truth is that many Christians aided Jews in escaping Nazi Germany. Many Christians were the very ones who unfettered the survivors of the death camps. But instead, according to you, everything bad that ever happened to the Jews was a massive Christian conspiracy. Its true that there were times when evil things were done by Christians or condoned by them, but it is at the moment of such a crime's commission that their type cease to be followers of Christ. The crimes of my ancestors or by people who falsely claim to be doing the will of Christ can not and will not damn me just because morons like you bring them up to promote your spiteful views. Your rantings are no better than those of a Klansman, you prejudiced waste of life.
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Feb 12, 2004 8:52:48 PM CST
i don't understand why everybody is taking this movie so serious
by microwavable?
i mean, sure - it's about Jesus. but this isn't some sort of "official" Christian movie - if there even exists anything "official" besides the Bible. it's one man's retelling of the story. even if Gibson filmed Jesus turning into MechaJesus and blowing up camels and Eskimos with laser blasters - it's NOT THE BIBLE. IT'S A MOVIE. the most annoying thing about the press of this film is that Christian groups (and Jewish ones too) are using it as a front to promote their own beliefs onto a society. "See, you like the cinematography of 'The Passion,' you should join us! We have the best cinematography in heaven!" cut the crap. no organization has ANY basis to cry - or even applaud themselves - over this movie. that's like a bunch of hobby model ship builders issuing self-promotional press releases after "Titanic" made billions. these religous folks have NO BASIS to troll behind the success of the movie (even if their cries are the reason for its success), even if organized faith is the biggest hobby of all.
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Wildly compassionate. Impossibly forgiving. Totally miraculous. For the first 33 years of his life, Jesus Christ has called the shots. Now he's about to meet his match.
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I've got a deeply held belief, you've got a deeply held belief - even outraged right wing jewish talk show hosts have deeply held beliefs. If the movie is truly inoffensive and "family entertainment", then who cares what some Jewish groups think about it? Obviously Mel Gibson does, because he seems hungry for endorsements - rabbis, politians, religious leaders - even the Pope, or so we were led to believe. Just stop politicizing this fucking movie and release it! From everything I've read, it sounds like a good, high-quality film - it shouldn't necessitate this wall of bullshit thats being thrown by people on both sides.
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you're asking for target practice, man.
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This is frustrating. Either this guy's just trying to piss people off (which is a shitty thing to try to do when you get right down to it) or he's jst a pissed off guy who has no idea about how to relax his own hate and realize that humans are individuals (even Christians and Jews *GASP*) who rarely if ever live up to the stereotypes of the groups they associate themselves with. Dude, if you're so pissed off, why not take the one good thing you had to say and channel your anger working towards getting Bush out of office?
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Because he sure sounds like one.
No rabbi I know would make any sort of apology for Jews being alarmed about anti-Semitism in any form. And no matter how you couch your championing of Mel's Passion, Harry, the possibility that this will incite anti-Semitism among, shall we say, less enlightened people IS very real. What amuses me most about all this is that while Gibson is out stumping for support from evangelicals, right-wing Protestants and run-of-the-mill Roman Catholics, in his zealous little heart he believes they're ALL going to hell because they don't subscribe to his fringe-group, throwback-to-before-Vatican-II, the-Holocaust-never-happened Catholicism. But who cares what happens to them in the afterlife -- he needs them *now.* -
Benjamin Disraeli, the Prime Minister of Britain from 1874-1880, was a Jew by race, and a Christian by faith. He held great pride in his Jewish heritage, and when Daniel O'Connell (Irish Roman Catholic Leader of the time) called Disraeli a "Damned Jew", he replied, "Yes, I am a Jew, and when my ancestors of the right and honourable gentlemen were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon." He also spoke of Christianity, and said "Christianity is completed Judaism, or it is nothing." At the time of Jesus, there was only one difference between Jews and Christians. That's right, only one. In many cases they lived in the same towns, worshiped in the same Temples, learned from the same Rabbis, and in many cases shared the same blood. They were siblings, classmates, neighbors, and friends. They most certainly worshipped the same God. In the time of Jesus the only difference between Christian and Jew was that the Jews were waiting for Messiah to arrive, and the Christians believed he had. That was the only difference. Christianity is completed Judaism, or it is nothing. As a Christian man I honor and hold dear the knowledge that the Jews are God
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"...All who cherish freedom and the rule of law are in his debt.
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Rabbi Lapin my ass. Ain't foolin this kid.
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Rabbi Daniel Lapin:
--Is critical of gay rights.
--Is critical of women in the military.
--He heads "Toward Tradition," a group united evangelical and fundamentalist Christians with traditionalist Jews.
--Favors allowing public schools to display signs that say "God Bless America." (AA, 10.23.01)
--Is critical of sex education in public schools.
--Served on the National Advisory Committee of Jerry Falwell's "People of Faith 2000" which mobilized churches throughout the country in a get-out-the-vote-for-Bush effort.
--Founder and president of Toward Tradition, a "national alliance between conservative Jews and Christians."
--Has denounced recycling as "The sacred sacrament of secularism." "Why? Because if we are animals then there is a shortage in the world. God doesn't take anything from us and God doesn't create and therefore there is a shortage ... Do not feel guilty for using what God has provided us. Enjoy it!"
--Works closely with Pat Robertson.
--Appears at the podium-pulpit during the Christian Coalition's annual "Road to Victory" conferences.
--Said that the "chasm" in America is not between "good" and "bad" people, but between "people who understand America's biblical blueprint and those who don't. Good people who toss the biblical blueprint away become liberals. Such well-intentioned people become secularists and socialist. And therein lies the problem..."
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So Mel Gibson flew to Austin and showed you his movie. Big deal. Look at what you are doing!!! "I don't endorse him, but in this particular case I think what he has to say is of value." In other words, who cares what someone stands for in life, if they agree with me on this film, their opinion should be embraced. Disgusting...
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while I'm pretty sure you are just out to try and push some buttons, here are a couple thoughts.
you say that ALL Christians/catholics turned their backs on Jews which is at best generalisation and at worst hateful and wrong headed. I can guarantee you that without the support of Christian America the state of Israel would cease to exist without our foreign aid.
As for Christians turning their backs on Jews, where are all the Jews coming to backup the Christians now when we are all getting painted as Anti-semitic, hate mongerers? We have gotten along extremely well for so long that I don't see how a movie "based" on the worlds best selling book will create a wave of violence or intolerance, when the book has not. Granted there will always be a few whackjobs in every religion, walk of life etc... who will take things too far. Question for you, when is the last time you saw a negative depiction of Judaism in a movie? I'm guessing very rarely if ever. I can't think of one (outside of The Big Hit), yet negative portrayals of Christians abound without a word.
As for America doing all the wrong things, you mention Iraq and Afghanistan, have you watched any of the news from Israel lately? Between firing missles into crowds to get at one person, and building walls cutting Palestinian cities in two, I am not seeing a shining example set.
Can't we all just get along and respect each others beliefs without resorting to name calling and slander? -
I treat Mel Gibson pretty much the same as John Travolta or Orson Scott Card or Alan Moore. They're all stuck in their freaky little religions but I'm willing to put up with it since they manage to do some good work when they're not wanking off on Battlefield Earth or Promethea. If The Passion rules, good for Mel, he'd have managed to intellectually jerk off and get his money back.
However, let's just be clear that the Jews didn't attack Mel Gibson, Mel Gibson went on Bill O'Reilly and preemptively defended himself against the Jews who he felt would undoubtedly be outraged by his movie once they heard what it was about. So of course the ADL obligied him by prancing around begging to see the script and giving him all the free promotion he could ever want.
Personally, as a Catholic, I'd like to see the ADL stick with this. The people this vision of Christ appeals to are Left Behind fans, pop-Christians who generally don't understand their own faith as well as the average Jew. It's not an exaggeration when I say that they aren't antisemitic because they believe that Jews need to stick around to die in droves at Armaggedon to bring about the second coming. These people freak me out. My best friend's son joined an Evangelical church in Missouri about 6 months ago and hasn't spoken to her in 5, after he left a message on her machine explaining that his minister advised him not to. I don't want to see these people grow any larger than they already have, and this movie looks like a perfect tool for doing just that, regardless of Mell's probable interest in promoting his personal retro-Catholicism. -
"maybe Christians should show their own human sides by paying reparations for slavery and genocide instead of just invading Iraq because of their oil", as though 'Christians' are one gestalt super-entity with a single mind and purpose. "As for anti-Semitic Germans, I'd say you were either a minority back then, and/or you just went along because you were afraid of being killed by Hitler", in fact, my Grandmother was very young at the time, and quite poor, so I doubt that she was very aware or much concerned with politics, but more with her family and their own problems. As I suspect were the majority of Germans. It's specifically *Nazis* you're mostly talking about. As for Germans going along with Hitler, he had an easy job swaying the population and getting them under his control, because he promised a way out of the shit condition the allies left Germany in after WW1, when they more or less bled the country dry after they had it beaten. You're against the Iraqi invasion, which is fair enough, but how about if the occupying forces, instead of commiting to helping the country rebuild and form a new governement, stripped it of it's remaining wealth and then left it crippled and struggling on it's own? Hitler didn't get up on a podium and straight away shout, "I want to slaughter Jews, gypsies, the polis, and any other group that offends my whacked out sensibilities, impose a facist dictatorship on you all with me as your tyrant, then conquer any country I can get my hands on and put the Aryan race where they belong: in charge of the world!". No, he took advantage of impoverished, confused, bitter people, got himself into a position of power, THEN revealed his true colours. My point remains, your labels and generalities will not help your cause, just repeat the cycle of prejudice and hate. As for seemingly implying it's OK to label and categorise (and thuis de-umanise and make it easier to hate) a group of people as long as the group is bigger than the one you consider yourself to be part of, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. Is it OK for black Americans to be racist, by that rationale? Was it OK when the rich white minority in the colonies of the massive Empires (the British Empire probably the most, unfortunately - I'm British) of yesteryear oppressed and looked down on the 'inferior' majority populations?
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apparently u have taken over the posistion of the former leader of atheists who speak type before they think, the esteemed Mr. Pink. Your posts are laughable and are invalid, they dont even follow a logical sequence of events. Its sad that you actually think your views are right but I guess many of us are blind to our own faults. No matter ho obvious your lack of consideration for anyone that doesnt fit your views correctly.
Peace Out -
Feb 12, 2004 9:53:37 PM CST
"They killed Christ" and why it doesn't enrage Christians. At al
by no-op
An oft-quoted reason why Passion is supposed to stir up anti-semitism is that it shows (reveals/insinuates/exposes/repeats) the Jews turning on Christ and calling for his death. Enraged yet? Well, mostly no. For one thing, who doesn't know this story already? Anyone that could generate rage at the "revelation"? Not so much. Lutheran by upbringing here, I was taught that the Jews indeed turned on Christ... but we wer taught it in the manner of "humanity" turning away from redemption and change. In this, we are all part of what brought Christ down. But also - his crucifiction was ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED in order to fulfill the redemption plan. Only by being spurned and rising again could the full work be done. So the Jews were as much part of the plan and the result as the Romans and everyone everywhere. Well, that's the way I was taught, not sure how much I still believe, but the point is that the story DOES NOT lead to recrimination. At least not from what I've seen. Are a few people afraid that exposure to the Biblical story pretty much as written in a book in 97% of American gentile homes would touch off any NEW hate? Huh.
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I think that it should be worth pointing out that American Fundamentalist Christians are some of the staunchest supporters of Israel, which just happens to be 80% jewish.
Most, and yes I do generalize, of secular Europe seem to cream their pants whenever a busload of Jews gets blown up.
It seems to me that the focus of anti-semitism is five or six time zones east of America. -
Seriously, "The Passion" will be the most important film to come out in decades, like it or not.
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there is only one god. and his name is...
damn. i was hoping to be introduced -
Feb 12, 2004 10:22:55 PM CST
The anti-Christian feces extravaganza presented by the Brooklyn
by theboojum
is, I assume, is The Holy Virgin Mary, the 1996 collage by an African artist, Chris Ofili, that used elephant dung, to connect the image of the Madonna to earthliness, fecundity and Africa itself. Is there ambiguity to it? Sure-- but also deeply felt Christianity.
Now, one thing that Passion lacks, from everything I've seen, is ambiguity-- which is Mel's right, I suppose. As a Jew, I find some of what I've heard about the movie troubling-- but much more troubling is the amount of hate speech I've seen on mainstream web sites- like Yahoo-- that attack Jews who question Mel's intentions. I don't know if this film will create any new anti-semites. But I've already seen ample evidence that it's helping the old ones find new voice.
I question why a movie, ostensibly about love in its purest and most sacred form, can inspire such hate. I question Mel's defensiveness, his pathetically inadequate efforts to distance himself from his father's Historical Revisionist views, his "fuck you if you don't like it" attitude towards those people, Christian and Jewish alike, who suggest that staging an ultra-violent passion play in multiplexes everywhere is not in the service of religious comity. Mel went into this spoiling for a fight-- that he should pretent to be wounded because he got one is disingenuous.
I've seen people defend this movie on dramatic or aesthetic grounds, and I'm fine with that. It certainly looks beautiful, in a gruesome way. But to defend the offensive material in the film because it's the truth? Sorry-- not my truth, pal. My truth is that recently several synagogues in my neighborhood have been befouled with swastikas on the doors, Jewish cemeteries have been desecrated, and I still see "Kill all Jews" grafitti in bathrooms. I don't know if these incidents are related in the least to the Passion-- but anti-semitism is in the air, and it's not anti-religious to say so.
Mel's "moral clarity" gives me pause. The openly racist talk that this movie is provoking is unhealthy for any society, and I seen nothing in Mel's response to try to dampen the flames.
Maybe he's just bitter because his wife is going to hell. -
Could any comment be more condescending than his assertion that Christianity is "Judaism completed?" Judaism's incomplete? Not to Jews. BD's religious conversion owes more to the ambitions of a politician in deeply anti-semitic Victorian England than to any spiritual convictions.
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this makes me so mad.
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Feb 12, 2004 10:35:43 PM CST
"Passion will propel vast numbers of unreligious Americans to em
by exit272
As an atheist I've always been amused by Christians (and, in this case, one Jew) who voice this conceit. While the movie might be a damn good movie, a rational unbeliever is only going to be persuaded by EVIDENCE. No matter how good a movie is, it's never going to constitute evidence that there was a magic-powered man walking around Judea 2000 years ago performing miracles, walking on water, raising people from the dead, and coming back from the dead himself. I was emotionally stirred by ROTK, but I didn't walk out of the theater believing elves and hobbits must really exist! Good grief. Religious people always think skeptics will be as easy to convert as they were if only the right emotional buttons are pushed.
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they cast liam neeson in chris nolans batman. i guess he is ras al ghul. an improvement over all the stunt casting from burton on. oh and did anyone read all the stuff about gibson (someone probably mentioned it already) but i think he's got some mental stuff going on. he was suicidal before he made this. he seems extremely fundamental even saying his non catholic wife would go to hell. yikes. i think the movie could be great but ol' mel...i don;t know...
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Feb 12, 2004 10:42:01 PM CST
One more thing: there's no evidence George Washington was Christ
by exit272
Go here and scroll down for some intersting history: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steiner0.htm
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Remember Jesus acutualy went willingly to the cross. His purpouse was to become a sacrifice for us all. The Sanhedrin Court was the means of geting him there and of course a crowd of Jews did choose Barabbas over Jesus but the Sanhedrin lead them. The Pharisees and Sadducees were woried that they were going to lose the control over the people they had. The Jewish people are not responsible for killing Christ, he went there for us so we all are responsible. I know a lot of you may not be belivers but check it out for yourselves. Read the four gospels and of course John 3:16 sums it all up.
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Feb 12, 2004 10:45:23 PM CST
"sacrilegious exhibits such as the anti-Christian feces extravag
by 1234123412341234
How is a sacred painting of the virgin mary dealing with issues of fertility deemed anti-christ?!?
If these closeminded people would bother to understand what they are looking at, they would understand that dung is used in many sacred forms in africa and
Chris Ofili (a devout catholic) meant no offense in this depiction. Anyone who understands art at all will know that this rabbi is passin judgement on this painting like he is chastising others for doing to the movie. -
or possibly chemically imbalanced. I just don't buy the paranoia as authentic. He just sounds like someone acting like he's Jewish to make Jewish people look bad. Much like when a racist white guy tries to act black online or when calling a radio show to make black people look bad.
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On the one hand, I agree with a lot of what the rabbi's saying here. I think a lot of the flak Jewish groups have been throwing in the way of this movie has been a knee-jerk reaction, and I personally have been withholding judgement until I have a chance to see the film itself. But, on the other hand, the rabbi sounds a bit too... oh, hell, he sounds like a nut. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad somebody said it; but if the goal of this article was to get Jews to feel entirely comfortable about this movie, it sort of backfired on him. Peace.
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Shut the fuck-up, Rabbi. I went to that show at the Brooklyn Museum. The piece to which you are referring, by Chris Ofilli (sp?) was not sacrilege. Eat a dick (circumsized or otherwise).
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you americans are funny.
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No atheist will be converted by this film. Only scared college kids who have only just had a taste of secularism while away from their devout parents. This film will scare them back into their delusion of magical dudes in the sky.
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I keep seeing these informed responses to his posts. The guy is obviously a moron armed with 10 oz. of information spilling out of a 5 oz. head. C'mon guys! Ignore!
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Lapin praises George Washington's letter to the Touro Synagogue in Newport as embodying John Locke's principle of separation of Church and State, which is basically the "modern" reformulation of Toleration. (Mediaeval "Toleration" often meant that you must save your neighbour's soul, even if you have to burn her at the stake... modern "Toleration", as described in Locke's "Letter on Toleration", was reinterpreted as material charity, respect for earthly life etc. -- basically cutting God and Salvation out of the equation.) ********** Anyway, despite building this whole argument on Washington's embracing of Lockean ideals (which are the philosophical underpinnings of the United States), Lapin's website is replete with rants about how 'God-fearing America' is fighting a 'new Civil War' with godless, secular, humanist, modernist, *Lockean* America. So is he in favour of modern toleration, or is he just a fucking right-wing idiot trying to get people to shut up and listen to the Word From On High, Thank You Very Much? I'm thinking idiot. ************** Though he's right about how the Anti-Defamation League can be thin-skinned, I think it's pretty clear to anyone looking at America today that we're pretty far off from the ideals of mutual respect and toleration. ADL may take it to extremes, but civil rights are important. Sure, they're being idiots in this case, but they're not irrelevant.
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only when they are willing to live as second class citizens under Muslim law. Come to think of it, that seems to be what all minorities in Muslim societies must do to be treated well.
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... I have the ability to use my HomoVision to discern absolute truth. And as a gay man and a gay journalist, I believe that "The Passion" will be a watershed event that will bring the issue of gay rights to the forefront of American society.
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Because the bible tells them to be.
Caiphus says "his blood be upon us and our children." I've heard that Gibson caved to pressure and cut that line.
Scholars think that that line was probably added later when the early church wasn't trying to ingratiate itself with Rome. Rome had recently destroyed the temple in response to rebellion by the hebrews, so they were none too popular with Rome. Also they Romanized their religion in other ways too which is why xtians don't need to be circumsized and can eat pork. They use that "behold I make all things new" quote as their transparently bogus rationale for disobey mosaic law. -
What I find particularly disturbing is this. Christians don't realize that they do this, but they clearly do. You see, zealous Christians have ignored and disregarded opinions of Jewish community leaders and Jews who condemn the movie. Now, I have not seen the movie, but have read a lot about it and about historical context, the gospels, and the like. It seems that, and if you read the EXCELLENT Newsweek article, in crafting his movie, Mel Gibson took bits and pieces from various accounts that were in many ways inconsistent with one another, added scenes not based on historical record, and crafted a movie, contrary to historical accuracy, which made Pontius Pilate a weak, saddened leader ultimately forced by the Jewish leaders (read: conspiracy) to kill Christ. In fact, the opposite was true. Pilate was a cold, often cruel leader who acted to protect his (and Roman) political interests. Hence, while Gibson is FULLY entitled to his point of view, it comes out as biased against jews. Saying, then, that "OF COURSE, Jews have no blood guilt; OF COURSE, we are all sinners!" rings hollow because he puts the blame squarely on Jews as a nation. Again, that was his right. So, too, was his right to prohibit any Jewish leaders, community members, etc from seeing the final version. Although it was his right, this rings like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion--trying to hide his true meaning from those who would expose and criticize it. Mel Gibson is fully entitled to his point of view. Religiously, morally, and otherwise, he has a right to do as he has done. HOWEVER, it is again a bit, shall we say, two-faced, to do things in the manner that he has chosen, criticize Jews for their response, and then blame the "official" jewish reaction on liberal secular jews. Which he has done. In essence he has said that the Jews who criticize him now are akin to the Jews who he says brought Jesus to be crucified. Aside from Mel Gibson's obvious Jesus complex, I'd like to get back to my original point..from which I have digressed. That point is this. The Christian / evangelical / Gibson-catholic community wholly disregards any criticism on this issue as unfounded, unbiased, pc, or two-faced (in fact, subtle jew-bashing, because the criticisms are directed at the jewish voices, rather than the countless christian ones that echo the same sentiment). So what happens? Somehow someone finds "an ORTHODOX RABBI" and that ORTHODOX RABBI sides with Mel Gibson, so the ORTHODOX RABBI must be right and ALL OTHER JEWS are clearly WRONG because the ORTHODOX RABBI BROKE WITH THE CROWD, becoming the RIGHTEOUS PERSON because he BROKE with the crowd.
Let me tell you this....I did a websearch on this Rabbi Lapin, and I don't know him from Adam, but I do know what he's involved in..He's involved with a very right wing non profit organization, aligned with the Christian coalition. He hosts right wing talk radio. He's a Dr. Laura-type Jew. A Jew in name, but not behavior. He almost panders to those who would criticize the "liberal jewish" power structure.
Was this noted? Perhaps a little bit, by Harry's own comments. Harry even acknowledges concerns he has about this Rabbi's other involvement. But he basically ends up annointing him, or at least granting him some kind of moral authority, because he parts with the Jewish community. He agrees with the rabbi on no issues other than the current matter before us--jew bashing.
Self hating, Rabbi Lapin may be. I do not know. I do not cast aspersions on his character. I don't know him. I disagree with his views, but I respect him for them. I believe he represents himself, at least in part, to be something that he is not, for he is pandering in his writings (which date back to last year) to non-jews; whereas a Jew who would read his words might know better. Again I am not criticizing him for his views.
What I am doing is this, and this alone---I am pointing out the hypocrisy of those who don't see that they confuse the issues. They don't see themselves as anti-semitic because they don't see that dismissing waves of jewish opinion is, at its core, racist. It is dismissive. We aren't anti-Semitic if we don't deal with jews, jews don't disagree with us, etc. But if a jew disagrees with our opinion, the Jew is wrong, not us.
It is ironic that a movie intended to spark discourse has in fact resulted in such anti-Semitic behavior. It is a shame. We are returning to a bygone period of anti-Semitism and reliving it.
For those of you who are Jewish and read this site, you see these seeds--these threads of ignorance and hate being weaved together. FOr those of you who are not Jewish, you rarely see, or can interpret, what it means to be living as a minority, reacting to common misperceptions or views that are in disagreement or direct contradiction. THis is a shame.
Most importantly, this is a shame because the only thing to ignite many Christians' passion or religious fervor in this issue is the rallying cry behind Gibson and against the Jews who are concerned about depictions in this movie. The rallying is done, perhaps at its core, for a love of Christ; but such rallying ignores the truth and teachings of one's own faith, and does so without any good reason.
The controversy was not brought on by Jews. It was brought on by the filmmakers. -
If this movie contains some sort of characature of Jews and say, makes the Jews of the crowd look physically different than the Jewish apostles, then the opponents of this film might have a point. If they feel that the portrayal of the Jewish athorities as plotting against Christ and the Jewish crowd rejecting and calling for his death should be swept aside or forgotten then they are wrong. The point of the story if taken from a non religous point of view is about the establishments fear of change and the mob mentality. If this movie mearly follows the gospels accuratly then the only thing that could cause anti-semitism is the outcry against it. Jews have a right to speak out against anti-semitism but when they seemingly demand a change to religious texts then they are being intollerant.
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should've read: "was trying to ingratiate itself..."
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see, again...jews MUST be off-base because Gibson didn't give all his Jewish characters big noses and horns.
IF they don't have big noses and horns, how POSSIBLY could the depictions be ANTI SEMITIC?
Simply proclaiming blood guilt against all jews CANT be ANTI SEMITIC, can it?
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The vision of Pilate as the cold cruel leader is what some historians have gleaned from the historical record, not the bible. The weak reluctant executioner is the Pilate of the bible. This movie is based on biblical teaching and not on whatever accounts by historians there may be. Anyway whats to say this cold cruel leader didnt have a generous day? lol
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and no one thinks its even the tiniest bit anti-semitic or self hating that someone would say the true purpose of criticizing Gibson is FUND RAISING?
NO, perpetuating a stereotype about jewish conspiracies and money-grubbing isn't anti-semitic, is it?
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What the fuck are you talking about?
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Of course there could be more subtle things in the film than hook noses and horns. I havent seen it yet there may very well be something. However if the "anti-semetic" components your siting are in fact taken from the New Testament then you have no right to ask for Christians to change it. Im offended you would even ask. After all isnt the fact that Christianity exists at all anti Jewish then? It does claim that the messiah has already come when Jewish teachings says he hasnt? I dont force you to believe the new testament dont try to force me to disregard parts of it you dont like.
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Lapin clearly states that the purpose of jewish furor was not righteous discontent, but rather a desire to milk the public for donations.
disgusting -
My arguement had nothing to do with what this guy believes. I barely skimmed the article. I agree his fund raising accusation is disgusting.
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the point is this..first of all, Gibson's version does not mesh with the new testament teachings.
second, you're absolutely right, your teachings are yours to cherish. Your teachings, if we ascribe to Gibson's apparent point of view, are at least anti-Jewish for the time period, and at worst anti-semitic. in other words, even if it was only meant to criticize some jews at some point in time, blood guilt is holding an entire people and its progeny guilty for the alleged sins of a small group of those who supposedly acted at the time. Even if Gibson only means to criticize THOSE JEWS, ie the ones there AT THE CRUCIFIXION, the danger and concern from the jewish point of view is the effect such a perspect has on relations, and on the idea of justifying anti-semitism at all. In other words, the jewish community is always concerned with the possibility that there are those who would permit anti semitism because "jews are christ killers anyhow". The Jewish community has a right to be concerned about portrayals of Jews, and exercised its right to be critical of the film. Keep in mind, the criticism was directed at the film and the filmmaker for how he handled the issue of Jews trying to learn more. Jewish criticism was limited...VERY limited. Now what comes, however, is that all Jews are being condemned, except for those who share a Christian evangelical viewpoint. So again its ALL JEWS being lumped together. It just keeps perpetuating. -
i should note that in my previous posting I meant to say this...
based on my reading of several articles, it appears to me that the teachings of christianity do contradict gibson's version.
I do not pretend to know all christian belief, am not an expert, etc. I only go based on what I have been exposed to, and meant to highlight the contradiction i saw.
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I have no spoilers. I havent seen this movie. I dont know any of the plot points of this movie. I havent read about the content of the movie. Im operating under the assumption that it follows accurately the text of the new testament.
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Cries of anti-semitism are really cries of a guilty conscience. If they wanna go against gibson for telling a story that has been written by the bible then really the jews are saying they are against the bible completely.
this movie is NOT entertainment, this is a true story, and its meant to wake everyone up from their little "worlds" that Bush and this goverment wants everyone in, to forget about terrorism and to go back to their quality of life . Pretend that this goverment has EVERYTHING under control, when we all deep down know that this world is OUT of control.
That is why the movie is not entertainment but a wake up call to everyone who thinks that religion doesnt mean shit .
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Should when I see this movie I find things that are anti jewish I will condemn it. I wont condemn it for things some people may not like from the new testament. Anyway, I think its safe to say that its not exactly the American Christian community that Jews have to worry about. What with a billion Muslims ready to kill you and Europe ready to let them.
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you know, they say this movie is accuratem but how accurate could its known that rome used a stake as capital punishment and that the idea of a cross comes from pagan origins.
all this talk about tradition but catholics are so tight about holding their own -
Feb 13, 2004 12:23:49 AM CST
Woodpecker... I think you need to come to terms with your homoph
by doug danger
You know I'm gay, right?
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Unless there are Jews that have been cursed to walk the Earth for 2000 years after Christ's death, I'm pretty sure there are no Jews alive that can be convicted for killing Jesus. That would be like saying that I, a white American, enslaved the blacks or killed the Native Americans. Jews are children of God and are owed the respect one should have for his fellow man.
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Feb 13, 2004 12:37:22 AM CST
If you want everyone in the world to see your movie all you need
by mwhelan67
I've always found it funny that people never seem to stop and think that if you don't mention a word about a movie (barring one like this) it will have more potential to come and go faster than a 14 year old boy on top of a playmate. Constantly going to great lengths to stop a movie from being released almost guarantees bank.
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Feb 13, 2004 12:42:22 AM CST
Jesus Christ, I am so sick of the story of Jesus Christ. It's al
by theginger twit
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Damn Fool.
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Feb 13, 2004 1:06:42 AM CST
One who blames the Jews misses the point of the crucifixion and
by antoniusbloc
I heard on a talk show today discussing Mel Gibson's film that in one of the scenes, the hand holding the hammer that nails Jesus to the cross is Mel Gibson himself. The point is that all sinners, meaning all of mankind is responsible for crucifying Jesus, not just the Jewish people. Just as Rabbi Lapin is ashamed of the anti-Christian tone of some of his fellow Jews, Christians should also be ashamed of those who misunderstand their own faith and use the crucifixion of Christ as an excuse for anti-semitism. Judaism and Christianity share the same roots and history. All Christians should only be honoring the people who God chose to reveal Himself to. Jesus himself, and the apostles were Jewish. Rabbi Lapin's most important point is that a sincere depiction of one's view of the truth, or even an intellectual honest argument for the truth one's faith should not interpreted as inherently hostile toward other religions or beliefs. The freedom to express such views is a natural right. However, the desire not to be offended is not a right as the politically correct Wormtongue's of our day would have us believe. It is a choice between intellectually honest debate and censorship.
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This is just a film! Made by a man. With a script and production values and actors - under direction of 'more pain' ... 'lower your head' ... 'start to weep'. I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but it's true that christianity and jews have got a lot to answer for. Especially in my almost three decades on this planet when I've seen stories change over time. the story is 2000 years old. Also, the first real bible couldn't have been published until the first printing press came out in the 18 hundreds... think about that. Further more, i'm a religious student of (last count) 47 religions. Sure I didn't study most of those as hard as others, but generally - they were all older than christianity, and they were all very similar. Virgin birth, missing child years, killing of the serpant, 12 followers, prosecution, death, and resurrection 3 days later. The truth is, christanity is a hybrid of all the most recent of religions. Pagan and astrology being the absolute most profound examples. The celebrations of the seasons eaoster - December 22 when the sun holds for 3 days before moving back, creating the seasons. The first calendar being established in the moth of september, ie Virgo. The virgin birth. The simple truth is, Christ, Krishna, Hey-zues, Jebus, the Krist. They are all the same damn thing, and we as a civilization are kind screwed up as a result of this.
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That's Americans to you pal. Why the capital A? Because we are manifestly better than you. Now shut the fuck up before we bomb your ass and take your oil. tard.
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Feb 13, 2004 2:04:11 AM CST
as a Catholic I don't blame "the jews" for killing Christ I blam
by tall_boy
that's kind of the point. We're impure so we kill him and he forgives us and saves us all in turn.
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religions are like assholes.If nobody had 'em, we'd all smell much nicer.
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Toora loora loora loo
They're looking for monkeys in the zoo. And if I had a face like you, I'd join the British army. -
What a great and intelligent piece of discussion to post about instead of just what a movie's costume or trailer looks like (don't get me wrong, that's why I come to this site everyday in the first place of course). I found the rabbi's article to be rather well-done and needed in such a time as now as when hate is being slung around over what started out as a trifle of a film but is now in league to do booming business at the box office.
The way I see it, Jesus foisted a certain amount of disagreement (sp) over not just certain people of Jewish faith, but people of all different beliefs when he strolled into, what was it, the main church of the land and proceeded to bring down the booths of the sellers and the money changers for "defiling the house of his father." The people doing business there could not have all been Jewish could they? People got pissed at him for that because that structure was considered the main place at which to do business for lands beyond that area, and they felt as if he was interrupting what they considered to be their natural economy for barter and/or sell.
Kudos abound to the talkbackers who posted about why not to censor art even in the face of possible societal damage (certain pieces that might be in the extreme negative not withstanding like Birth of A Nation and Triumph of the Will) as well as the information posted about whom this rabbi affiliates himself with. I agree that everyone is of a right to their own opinion, but I still could not help but do a double take when I saw that the rabbi that posted this article works with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. I don't beleive any forgivnenss should be given to these 2 as far as their post 9/11 comments with, but again that is just me, they mean to do good in what they try to accomplish, but to me they are about as extremist as the Taliban. I agree with the rabbi's article, shit look at Howard Dean, he was the frontrunner at first because all his running mates wanted to do was slam him from pillar to post which left people saying "hey, what's so wrong with him?" the same can be said of Mel's "Passion" play with everything negative being thrown its way.
Finally, Bahamakut, or whatever the fuck your name is, I can just barely believe you even exist. You wanna piss on all Christians just because you think ALL of them actually blame the Jews for killing Christ, yet you yourself come off as someone who blames the Holocaust on ALL Germans? Is that not like the pot calling the kettle black? I'm going to hold you to your little place bet that "The Passion" will only open to $10 million dollars because they have already said that theaters are selling out in waiting for this, hell it could be the highest grossing movie of the year (I can see it now...Jesus Vs. Spider-Man starring Bruce Campbell as Christ) I do take pleasure in this, no, not because most of my religious beliefs tend to curve towards Christianity, but because this means this little movie is going to utterly destroy that piece of recycled Hollywood horseshit that is the Dirty Dancing prequel. Hey here's a question for you Bahamakut, and in all seriousness toward you, would you yourself be against all religions having a go at making thier own movie regarding a certain main event from their texts or are you just biased against this movie? P.S. If even one bad anti-semitic, hate-inspired event can be traced back to this movie, know one thing, that individual missed the entire point of this movie. Depending on how that one deleted scene was handled and outside of it, this is just another visual media for devout Christians to celebrate a man they consider to be their savior who made the choice of facing death in the first place......ramble, ramble, ramble -
That whole thing about not believing you exist Bahamat-Kun only has to do with the possible aspect that you may not be Jewish but may in fact be a skinhead trying to stir up some raw feelings. But I could just as easily be a super-intellignet chimp who fights crime by night so I'll take your word for it. My apologies for misspeling your name though.
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Being an orthodox Jew myself, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on this subject.
First of all, I definetly don't subscribe to the fact that Mel shouldn't have made this movie, nor do I think that he is necessarily an anti-semite (like most people, I try and give the benefit of the doubt where possible). What I do have a problem with is not so much that this movie is going to cause millions of Christians to revert to anti-semitism - I should hope that the majority have finally moved past that point - but rather that a different sort group will use this movie as an excuse for anti-semitism: Muslim leaders. Note that I said LEADERS, not Muslims in general. I'm sure there are many Muslims living in the West who have no problem with Jews at all. Hell, I was pretty friendly with a few Muslims in one of my language classes here in Holland, which is supposed to be part of the European hotbed of anti-semites. No, the real problem are the majority of Muslim leaders who need to have a scapegoat for all their problems. You could hear it in the state-run newspapers all across the Middle East, you could also hear it from the former Prime Minister of Malasia, who claimed that all JEWS - not a few people in the Israeli government, not all Israelis (although that would also be a ridiculous statement), but all Jews worldwide - are part of a conspiracy to suck all the money and life out of hard-working Muslims (what I'd like to know is, if I'm part of this conspiracy, where's MY share of the money?). This is the same kind of baseless hatred that Christians exhibited for hundreds of years, and even some Christians persist in to this day (though I will be the first to admit that thankfully relations between Christians and Jews in general are much better now than they used to be). "But Jesus wasn't a Muslim." you might ask. True, but that won't stop Muslim leaders from pointing to the movie and saying "THIS is what the Jew is about." They'll convince millions of people that this is the full truth, when the actual truth is that A) this is, ultimately, just a movie and B) This is Mel's vision of the truth. There are enough conflicting reports about what happened to Jesus that there is no one definitive timeline of events. And when reading the New Testament, just like reading the Bible, you have to take things into context (after all, Jews don't literally believe "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" - the context behind that line in the Bible is that if you damage someone's eye or tooth, they should be compensated for the VALUE of what was lost). My fear is that this movie will be taken out of context and twisted for their purposes, to keep the people from trying to think on their own, and thus realizing that it's the leaders themselves who are the problem. But Mel's insistence that nobody could take anything bad or anti-semitic from this movie is full of naivetee. I would have thought a little more of him.
Just one last thought - if the movie happens to come here to Holland, I do want to try and watch the movie at least once. I'm not about to pass judgement on the movie itself until I actually see it. I just wish Mel would realize that the world as a whole is not as perfect as Jesus is supposed to be. -
Honestly - do you americans have any idea how immature as a nation your looking right now?
The conservative media's outrage and temper tantrums over these two trivial issues shows what a lot of growing up our so called global super power has to do. Us brits and you guys have a lot on in the middle east - don't you think you should get your minds back on the bloody job of booting out your corrupt president? -
What a dick this guy is. We need another religious awakening like Atlantis needs water. I mean for fucks sake, America sees the Middle East as a hive of fundamentalists and here's this guy spouting off about strengthening current religious beliefs. Genius.
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He doesn't sound English to me, at all. He's an unmarried, fattish white American, prone to bouts of depression, anger and self-hatred. Largely because he lives under his father's roof and is unable to provide for himself as an adult man should. And he very much like sexy ladies in Japanese cartoons, because he has little or no sexual experience with actual women. Let's all send him our love and support, shall we? GATSU187@HOTMAIL.COM
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'he promised a way out of the shit condition the allies left Germany in after WW1, when they more or less bled the country dry after they had it beaten." It's not the Allies fault your country started a war.' ------ What the hell? First off, I said I had a German Grandmother, I'M English! My country WAS the allies! As for Germany starting a war and somehow deserving to be plundered afterwards, you seem to be confusing the First and Second World Wars. The First World War was not some noble fight of the Allies against an evil regime bent on conquest and genocide like the WW2, it was a shameful political mess where the last generation of imperialistic, glory-hungry aristocrats threw away the lives of millions of men for no better cause than there petty political squabbles and desire to increase their own power, wealth and glory. Then, the victors raped the country of the losers, only, of course, it was the ordinary people who suffered, who probably barely even understood why the war happened in the first place. It would have been exactly the same in reverse if Germany had won, but if Britain had lost, maybe one of the facists who gained a small following in Britain during the thrities and forties would have been able to play on the bitterness of the common people and become an English Hitler, who knows? The fact is, the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich was terrible, but only possible because of the actions of the Allies in the First World War. You should not connect the Allied Forces of WW1 with the Aliies of WW2, who made a stand against facism and atrocity, in your mind. Quite apart from that, I don't see any justification for pillaging a conquered coountry and then abandoning it. The Allies didn't do that after the Second World War, and maybe that's why Germany is now a peaceful nation with a strong desire to put the past behind them, as opposed to them being whipped up into hatred by war mongerers all over again. As for "And people still followed him in light of his true colors", um, hello? Dictatorship? Facist police state? By your rationale, the Iraqi people deserved everything they got from America because they still followed Saddam Hussein! --- As for minorities keeping majorities in check, I don't see how open prejudice and hatred is helpful there, indeed surely it is more likely to cause a backlash that sees the majority oppress the minority. My point is, your generalities and insults are more likely to harm your cause than help it.
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Interesting article that I'm sure we all agree with.
Just a note as an Irish Catholic. We are brought up with religion in our schools and learn about Jesus and all that through school.
Never, in my 21 years, have I ever heard anyone broach the subject of the Jews killing Jesus. His parents were Jewish.
Considering a race at fault is pure and utter nonsense and it seems to me that this issue was raised and propagated by the groups that the Rabbi talks about above. They should be ashamed.
Jesus died to save us all. He knew he would die, he told this to the Apostles. It was part of God's plan.
Finally, are we now going to hate all Italians? After all, it was the Romans who actually carried out the sentence.
Peace out and remember, it doesn't matter what people believe in as long as they do good.
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He gets crucified at the end if you don't know the story. The butler did it.
Religion always fires debate whatever the medium being exploited, sorry, explored. I'm sure this will be a decent enough film but the clamour surrounding it has taken it to another level. As anti-semitic as this will probably sound to some, given US foreign policy regarding Israel and the billions of dollars the Yanks pump into it, this release is hardly going affect public opnion of the Jewish on any kind of new level. Religion is inhenrently inflammatory and divisive. Apart from Buddhism most faiths deny and seek to discredit other deities' existance and self-righteousness abounds as much as does among liberal circles. It's almost another form of class to those who believe.
Anyway, Gibson will forever be remembered as the mullet-clad, eighties cliche he made his name playing. Shit, I'm gonna get fired if I carry on much longer. Time flies when you're undermining the beliefs of billions.
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He gets crucified at the end if you don't know the story. The butler did it.
Religion always fires debate whatever the medium being exploited, sorry, explored. I'm sure this will be a decent enough film but the clamour surrounding it has taken it to another level. As anti-semitic as this will probably sound to some, given US foreign policy regarding Israel and the billions of dollars the Yanks pump into it, this release is hardly going affect public opnion of the Jewish on any kind of new level. Religion is inhenrently inflammatory and divisive. Apart from Buddhism most faiths deny and seek to discredit other deities' existance and self-righteousness abounds as much as does among liberal circles. It's almost another form of class to those who believe.
Anyway, Gibson will forever be remembered as the mullet-clad, eighties cliche he made his name playing. Shit, I'm gonna get fired if I carry on much longer. Time flies when you're undermining the beliefs of billions.
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You're here, he's not.
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I'm a Christian, and I'm getting bombed by a Jewish friend for promoting this movie. Our friendship has suffered immensly because of it.
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If Christ was just a misguided nice guy (that is, NOT the Son of God), then who gives a rat's ass who killed him? BUT...if he is the Son of God, well then it's obvious that GOD killed him since GOD set the events in motion with a conclusion that was known even before it all happened. There was no escape from the fate of being crucified. So just the concept of Jews being RESPONSIBLE for Christ's death is pretty silly.
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'"Hey here's a question for you Bahamakut, and in all seriousness toward you, would you yourself be against all religions having a go at making thier own movie regarding a certain main event from their texts or are you just biased against this movie?" If the religion already has too much power and influence, and it's corrupt, then yes, I would. It's called Separation of Church and State'. I didn't think the Paasion was State funded?
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Feb 13, 2004 8:21:38 AM CST
Everyone knows the Italians killed Jesus. Oh, and RCamacho...
by frankcobretti
try reading a newspaper. Bush does *not* want everyone in America to think everything's under control. He wants everyone in America to think the wolf is at the door and he's the wartime President fighting to keep us all safe. I'm not interested in whether or not your believe that line, but that's the Presidential election strategy this time around. It's ok to have an opinion, but please try to make it an informed one.
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Feb 13, 2004 8:47:08 AM CST
Why give this goof bandwidth he doesn't need? He's just some pa
by minderbinder
I'd love to see a Rabbi's opinion on this flick, but not one with a preconcieved agenda. And I'm not convinced about ticket sales either. Sure, tons of tickets have sold, but most of them are churches buying entire auditoriums full with the intention of giving them away to Non Believers and converting them. Expect many sold out shows but empty seats opening weekend. Reminds me of when the hardcore scientologists buy tons of copies of Dianetics just to artificially get it on the best seller list.
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Feb 13, 2004 9:10:13 AM CST
"BY THE WAY Harry Here-- Rabbi Daniel Lapin is a well known zeal
by eveelcapitalist
Wow, thanks for that Harry. Love being warned about them zealous right wingers. Too bad you don't put warnings for zealous leftist radicals, fucking hypocrite. But you're right, that was an extremely valuable little column that everyone ought to take the time to read. It was also very good of you to put this up on your site. However, that little bit at the end makes you come off as even more close minded. Sure, let some commentary from the opposite side on but only with a big warning at the end. WATCH OUT! RIGHT WING ZEALOT COMMENTARY! SWEAR TO GOD THIS IS ONLY A ONE TIME THING! God forbid anyone try to find any of that guys writing and maybe open their minds to other perspectives (course like the Rabbi pointed out shit like that only makes people even more curious). Of course when the leftie suff comes up it's all back slapping, self congratulatory bullshit as you think to yourself that John Ashcroft and his secret team of fascist right wing SS agents are probably fuming at the article and thinking of ways to break into your house and tap your phone lines while raping your dog and reading whatever sleazy romance books you borrowed from the library. So what makes this guy a zealot anyway? Did he bomb an abortion clinic or does he just believe Israel has a right to exist? Best back that shit up, yo.
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this rabbi claims that jews protested the film because it was a positive depiction of christianity, but in truth they protested because it was said to depict jews in a negative light. And in all this lengthy article, Rabbi Lapin said absolutely NOTHING about this accusation. Has he even seen the movie? What was in it that could have been interpreted as a negative depiction of jews? Lapin does not tell us. He just sets a straw man and then knocks him down. So until I personally see this movie or until we have enough critics see it, I reserve judgment - and so should you.
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I was first on this page.
Just giving myself a pat on the back for being on top of one of the longest most serious talk-backs ever. =P -
Firstly, this article says almost nothing about the movie itself. In fact, I would say it's far more about inter-Jewish politics than The Passion.
I haven't heard any Jewish group say that the film IS anti-semitic but rather that it COULD BE based upon the scripts and early footage they have seen. Mel has done nothing to allay these fears. Instead he has been preaching to the converted, showing it to sympathetic Christian columnists, right-wingers and, yes, the AICN fest.
And The Passion is not, by any means, "what most Christians believe."
It is well known that Mel rejects Vatican II which puts him to the right of even what most Catholics believe. Word is also that the film is based far more upon The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ - a revisionist, fundamentialist (and, yes, anti-semitic) tract - as opposed to the Gospels themselves. It's not Gospel truth, it's Gibson truth.
I haven't seen the movie and I'm still hoping it's good (and not anti-semitic) but don't buy into the hype that "it is as it was," to quote the faux marketing that pretended the Pope ok'd the movie. Jeffrey Wells, for starters, pointed out how even the depiction of the crucifixion fails to accord with what we know about how crucifixions were performed.
Why, Rabbi Lapin, are Jews the slightest bit worried about what the result of the film will be? Maybe it's because Mel can't even hit a simple softball tossed by Passion-booster Peggy Noonan.
She asked him, since there was a bit of confusion about it, whether he believed there was a Holocaust and rather than just clearing the air and saying "YES," he gave the biggest "YES, BUT" I have ever heard.
Says Mel:
"Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people
died in the Soviet Union."
Ukranians starving, Jews being hunted, put on trains, gassed and/or baked...yep, seems to be about the same thing to Mr. Gibson. I guess saying that "some of them were Jews" is better than saying that not a single Jew was killed...
this film BETTER be good.
O'Pootertoot -
We need a talk back button at the bottom of the page...
Anyway, I'm happy to see that Harry can actually preface an article without swearing like a sailor. Maybe he's actually growing up, and will start to act like a respectful journalist rather than a crazed fanboy.
Oh, and kudos, Rabbi. -
All conservatives are insane? That's a significant piece of the population. Don't try to marginalize us, our arguments are sound if you get past all your hatred. I mean, geez, life isn't easy, we are all just trying to figure out the best thing for everybody. Without making another blanket statement... explain what the problem is with an ideology of self-reliance and right and wrong that is confident in the success of every individual? If there is no such thing as right and wrong.... how can I be wrong? Logically, conservatives win. You just don't like the crazies that spank people and preach damnation.... that's makes sense, neither do I, but get a grip.
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first off while I'm sure this film will do decent box office, how well do you really think a film with no big stars and subtitles is going to do? did you forget that the largest demographic of the movie going public is 13 to 18 and they're not gonna give a shit about this movie. secondly a group of evangelical christians has said recently said that the passion could ignite anti-semitism (especially in europe where it has become an increasingly large problem in the last four years). And while i agree that many jewish leaders who have spoken out on the passion have been trite and childish in their approach, it doesn't mean they don't have a point. we live in a time and a society ripe with ignorance and fear, mix with a growing movement of people turning to fundamentalist religion for their answers instead of their own minds and common sense. I do not believe that mel gibson is trying to hurt anyone with this film. i do not question his motives in anyway, but there is definitely a danger here in this time and place. I also wouldn't take a single word that obvious self hating right wing lap dog lapin says. he has his own motives for things, and they are not preserving judeo-christian values or communication as much as preserving his own power and checkbook. Also of note, one of the books Mel based his film on (obvious other than the gospels) was apparently written by a recognized anti-semite. just something to think about.
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Racism has always been an excuse to make men feel better about emslaving other humans. The first time a Danish saw a black woman, he said she was the most beautiful thing he had ever seen; "skin of black pearl, complection of the angels, truly beautiful"... something like that. It was only when we could start buying people that we invented the idea that they were barbarions. Hitler called the Jews "sub-human" thereby taking the guilt out of the equation. People always do this. The point is that racism is not "part of humanity".. we do generalize but hatred? Nah, we can get over it, we just need to stop deepening and the chasm by creating all these different classes of people and assigning rights that are the most "fair" to each. We are all equal, lets start acting like it and not thinking people's ideological leanings are determined at birth, by their skin-color. Example: 92% of the African American vote went to Al Gore... Sounds like a statistical impossibility to me. How could that have happened unless the African American voters were fooled into thinking that republicans really hate them? Is that "fair"?
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Seems like the big deal is that this will be very biblical (no "last temptation") but will likely take liberties to get a point across. That point is likely total selflessness and sacrifice. It will show that Jesus is more "passionate" about humanity than he is about his own life. And Mel Gibson is doing it? Well that increases the film's importance just be proximity.
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Those bastards!
Seriously, though. I've heard a lot about how this movie is bad because it makes it look like some Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus. This is a stupid thing to be worried about, for a couple of reasons. 1. This is not news. It's been that way in the Bible for a long time. If you're just finding out about it now because of the movie, then you know nothing about religion in general. It doesn't help to be ignorant of every religion but your own. 2. Taking the Bible at face value, Jesus dying was not a bad thing. It's not like he was supposed to live... he was supposed to die. IT'S THE BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY!! He died to atone for people's sins. By calling for his death, the Sanhedrin and the Romans played right into God's hands. Jews killed Jesus? Well some of them did. And there were some Romans there, too. And there were a lot of Jews who would have preferred Jesus lived, all probably outnumbered by a lot of Jews who just didn't give a crap. So, to the Jews who killed Jesus, thanks. Good job setting in motion what the Christians believe to be the mechanics of their salvation. -
Being a Christian and having not seen the movie I have to say that to allow a movie to drive a wedge between Christians and Jews shows the blindness of both sides. Enjoy (or not) the movie, critique the movie but don't use it as a basis for your faith or your bigotry.
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your absolutely right, the jews of today are convicted for killing jesus, same way we aint responsible for what people did in our past. But they those people did kill jesus thus losing their children of god status and thus the whole reason why jesus gave his life. He gave his life for mankind in a sacrificial sacrifice. The jews still think they are gods people, and only them, but jesus died for everyone.
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It's abundantly clear to me, as it should be to anyone with common sense, that this movie may in fact inspire hatred. That's not a big deal. There will always be people who use fictional entertainment as a jumping off point for their own personal agenda, whether it's hating Jews or any other group. The mark of good entertainment is its ability to evoke emotion. I agree with the Rabbi's statements above and commend him for having the courage to announce his disagreement to the world. If more religious leaders were capable of such independence, perhaps the faithful wouldn't be abandoning our churches in such high numbers. I believe that organized protest of "The Passion" is tantamount to the wasted efforts of those who fight for "decency" as they see it. Frankly, claims that saying the word "FUCK" or its equivalent will get you a one way ticket straight to Hell, are completely misguided. Hating all Jews because one or two of them killed Christ two thousand years ago is no different than hating all Germans because Hitler was one.
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He really lays it out, exposing the fools denigrating Gibson's movie for what they are, deluded types who have let their emotions run away with their reason. Like the arch-antiCommunists of yesteryear, the ADL seems to be looking for anti-Semites under every bed. Anything that hints of what THEY view as anti-Semitism MUST BE anti-Semitism. Since they're such experts on anti-Semitism, they can't be wrong. Well, THEY ARE. Lapin's argument is extremely rational, even-handed, and easily understood (unless you happen to be an idiot or a hatemongering racist.) Thank you also, Harry, for posting this.
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the problem is that many, if not most american christians (and i know plenty of them having gone to catholic school for 12 years) think that jesus died only for the christians. this is the problem with religion in general...it is separatist. And a movie about religion can in turn ferment or promote that separatism, even if its not intended too.
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Finally someone said it. Thanks!
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I don't think that absolutism is, de facto, bad. It is possible to believe in the concept of absolute, objective truth while respecting the inherent human dignity of those with whom you disagree about the nature of that truth.
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so much foolish talk...
1) Gibson did not make this movie to entertain. He did not even make it, as Scorsese did with Last Temptation, to explore the nature of Jesus. He made this film for the soul purpose of expounding upon HIS interpretation of Jesus' final hours. Scorsese never claimed that his film was aiming for an almost-documentary type reality but Gibson HAS made these types of claims about his film being what REALLY happened.
It may be entertaining, it may be beautifully shot, it may be well acted and it may be the least anti-semitic film ever made but all of that is either incidental or solely serving Gibson's quasi-evenagelical purposes. Scorse's film, even Kevin Smith's "Dogma" are explorations of faith, and religion. The Passion is nothing of the kind. It is polemical.
2) Catholicism IS exclucivist. Yes, Jesus did for everyone's sins but only if you BELIEVE that he died for your sins do you get to go to the nice cloudy place. You can cure cancer, save a burning cat from a house on fire and even take a bullet for the Pope but you're still going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus. That's Dogma, folks. Judaism, on the other hand, does allow for many different paths to God if you are "good person." It's just if you're Jewish you're supposed to lead by example and do all that extra stuff like not eating piggies.
3) Jesus wasn't actually "King of the Jews." It was a derisive title, smartypants.
4) Weren't his final words "Forgive them, they not what they do?" It begs the question of why it took his representative on earth about 2000 years to do just that.
5) The ADL may or may not be right about the film being anti-semitic but it's Gibson who has shied away from showing it to anyone who might not be sympathetic to his cause. His pseudo-holocaust denial and nutty father aren't helping his cause...
O'Pootertoot -
I don't want to resort to name-calling, but Wow, TH, you fucking retard. I guess you're sort of proving the ADL's point, huh?
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In the off-chance you were serious about your question, the Jews didn't recognize him, by and large, as their King. If they had, they would have known that the old covenant had been done away with and the new one, signified by Jesus' crucifixtion, had come. So they stayed with the old ways and the Christians (Apostles) started following in the new covenant. Look to Acts 2:42-47 for a look at the face of the new church and covenant.
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I want footage of tap-dancing Christ, jumping Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, and Christ on a motorcycle. OK, I'm going to Hell now.
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Feb 13, 2004 12:41:33 PM CST
THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE...... ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS LORD OF YOUR S
by perryfarrell
yo wolf at the door - fuck you.
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yo chill the fuck out. all harry's saying is that he doesn't endorse this guy in general. it's not a 'warning'. it's just a statement of harry's political views on this guy, because he felt it was necessary. how does that make him a 'fucking hypocrite'?
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Feb 13, 2004 12:53:55 PM CST
i really, really, really really want this movie to be incredible
by perryfarrell
that would be the happiest experience of my sad, sad life.
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based on what I think I know about American society, I never would have thought that there was a need to actually PROMOTE Christian faith in the US. A multiplex with 20 screens is reserving all of them for Passion? I can't see that happening anywhere outside of USA, least of all here in secular Europe. And, without wanting to judge or offend anybody or anything, I'm quite happy about it, given the potential danger of beliefs being abused to justify hatred, violence and even genocide, to name just a few. International terrorism is the most recent example, but it was the same thing with the crusades. And I don't think that anything in the very nature of faith as such has changed ever since that.
But I could be wrong of course... as much as I am off topic right now. -
that's because you don't understand the mind of the american fundamentalist christian (i.e. mel gibson). they see all of american as fundamentally evil and in dire need of the salvation that only Jesus can provide. most of them have never been to europe, and when they go, they are regularly shocked and amazed at how much worse it can get (in their eyes). america is very religious and doesn't know it. but that's part of our charm!
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Feb 13, 2004 1:20:18 PM CST
mel gibson is gonna have to do another 'lethal weapon' or somet
by perryfarrell
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Kudos (or whatever the phrase is) to Harry for putting it up. That message at the botton about this rabbi doing some right-wing thing bothered me a bit though. Judging from his article he seems pretty open-minded and level-headed. It would nullify the article somewhat if he's a zealot himself, wouldn't it? Still, that wouldn't make what he says any less true. As a Jew myself, a lot of the time I find my fellow Jews (most, if not all of them, from older generations) to be somewhat paranoid about anti-semitism. It's understandable I guess, but I still wish they'd chill out a little (for lack of a more appropriate phrase).
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first, those who tie Hitler to Christianity are wrong. Hitler based his views on Nietsche (sp) and Marx, not exactly fans of religion. "The Madman", anyone? (God is dead, and we have killed him). second, i agree with the eevelcapitalist, i think Harry was just covering his capacious backside with the "right-wing zealot" proviso. you don't get Surgeon General warnings when liberals start spewing venom at conservatism and Judeo(!)-Christian values. lastly, i'm really tired of these discussions. everybody is just saying the same things over again. it's good to talk about these things but at some point, well, what's the point. oh, and by the bye, Jesus died to save mankind from their sins, and made it possible, but they still have a choice: to accept and humble themselves, or to throw their own pride against the throne of grace. if they choose the later, God's gotta allow it. free will, can't it be a bitch sometimes.
lastly, a question: why do you think that jews have been persecuted throughout human history since their inception? From abraham on down, they have been hunted and hated. Why? could it be because they were God's Chosen People, who He used to reveal Himself to mankind, and through who (underline here) He sent his Son (His Only Son, people! who here could sacrifice their son?) to save mankind if they turned from their wicked ways and threw themselves upon the mercy of God?
whew! i'm spent.
pax -
first, hitler didn't really use nietzsche to form his views, he warped his philosophies to turn them into something that would justify his 'views'. in fact his views weren't really views as much as tools to get into power, and hey, it worked. second, yes, it could be that the jews are God's Chosen People. but there's no reason for an intelligent person to just assume that, unless they're looking to back up previously held beliefs.
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Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
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i shall say that yes, hitler didn't borrow verbatim from Nietzsche, but he did espouse the aethist view (now before some people explode, i'm not blaming aetheists for WW2) that the philosopher proclaimed. also, even if you don't believe in the bible and its history of the Jews, still history shows us continual persecution of Hebrews. again, i ask why? excuse me, EvilDead, what exactly are you referring to? are you referring to the Holocaust or the Old testament?
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what a stupid song. The funny thing is that people seem to think it promotes a better world, but if you listen to the lyrics it really doesn't.
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i'll agree with all that. all i'm saying is that atheism, etc., was just a means to an end for hitler. now as to why the jews were so persecuted, they have a very strong sense of identity and tradition, and conquering empires don't tend to like that.
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it has nothing to do with whether or not it promotes a better world. it's just a fucking cheesy song. okay, i'm imagining. now what?
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....I agree.
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Feb 13, 2004 2:23:27 PM CST
"Too bad you don't put warnings for zealous leftist radicals" U
by minderbinder
Just curious, I must have missed them.
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Where Jesus fires first and the Romans crucify him in self defense
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Jesus was a Jew. Pontius Pilate was a Roman who condemned him to die. The Jews, his Apostles as well except one, turned their back on the Messiah. He was crucified, and died. Its all in the Bible, New Testament, so whats the hub-bub about? Should we outlaw the Bible, New Testament, because it says that not all Jews walked on water, and betrayed their Savior? Just deal with it, its what Christian faith is based on, but Jews aren't the bad guys here. They just acted their part in God's plan, Jesus had to die for our sins. Hating Jews for what they did to Jesus is about as logical as hating a Cheetah because it has spots, it just doesn't make any sense.
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Feb 13, 2004 2:37:12 PM CST
Toyboat - I never said any particular group was loathsome
by minderbinder
Although I see how people wouldn't like being compared to scientologists...
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Feb 13, 2004 2:41:11 PM CST
About time for Spike Lee to complain that there aren't enough bl
by myglockyourmouth
Lil` Kim as Mary Magadelene not Monica Bellucci! That would make me want to get crucified!
50 Cent and his "crew" as the disciples! They could have hos at the Last Supper! Very culturally relevant and cutting edge too! Hey McG(arbage) would do it!
Nelly as Jesus. He could grab his crotch on the cross to show those evil Romans who the real playa was. "Y U B 4 Barabbus N not 4 me?"
Puff Daddy as God: Well isn't he?
Let's get wit it Mel. Racist, you're a racist, very racist! -
in the spirit of all things holy and sacred, Mel doesn't want to bring a positive message to everyone, just a select few who probably already share his views at least partially. from the IMDB:
Although Mel Gibson's Icon Productions has boasted that his controversial The Passion of the Christ will open on 2000 screens on Feb. 25 -- a huge number for an independently distributed film -- most of those screens will be located in the Bible Belt and in black and poor areas of major cities -- and will not include areas that are considered "Jewish, upscale, or liberal," FoxNews.com's Roger Friedman observed today (Friday). After examining the list of theaters posted on the movie's website and on moviefone.com, Friedman noted that in Manhattan, for example, the film will play in one theater in Times Square, but none from 42nd Street to 96th Street on the West Side and only in two on "fringe areas" of the East Side. It will be shown in only two theaters in Chicago. In the Los Angeles area, it will not be screened in Beverly Hills, Century City, or the Beverly Center (but will be screened in all the Magic Johnson theaters).
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I'm a Christain. I for one don't understand how a movie based exactly what's in the scripture could make me suddenly hate Jews. Even we Christians believe that the Jews are God's choosen people. We as Christians are taught to love EVERYONE. This includes someone like Saddam. It's not always easy for us mortals but God loves each of us the same and we need to realize that. I think the Jewish community needs to take it easy on this movie. Yes they are responsible for the death of our Savior, Jesus Christ. But it was all part of God's plan.
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anyone here actually had a realistic and adult grasp on the teachings of christianity. Its like 90% of christians we're taught the basic child story version of the bible when they we're young and thats all they can possibly fathom. Jesus NEVER wanted christianity to be about him, he wanted his teachings to be remembered, which are essentially just treat EVERYONE with respect and compassion, something i'm willing to bet most people (not just christians) don't do. everybody go read the gospel of thomas and maybe learn a thing or two about what Jesus really thought, said, did, believed. there is blatant separatism from all the world's major religions. dogma and doctrine are dangerous. And the only thing that can determine whether or not you are a bad person is how you treat other people. The best religous writings i have read all focus on the spiritual teachings and journey as opposed to blind worship. if you're interested seek out the gospel of thomas, zen flesh zen bones, or thomas jefferson's bible. or just go to a unitarian universalist service and meet truly spiritual people who are accepting and open and willing to explore true spirituality with you.
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Again I ask if the movie supposed to be so accurate, then why to they portray christ being executed on a cross when historically its been proven that rome used stakes for capital punishment and the T for the cross came from pagan origins.
As for the comment rogue made about christians knowing Jews were gods chosen people, they WERE gods chosen people, but with the sacrificial death of jesus christ, gods "people" was extended to EVERYONE who wanted to be part of that. Before only the jews were his people but with jesus death that promise made to abraham was kept and replaced by now a promise extended to the whole of mankind.
True christians know THAT.
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Feb 13, 2004 3:59:33 PM CST
Umm, what "right wing ideals" are those that you so disugree wit
by milo_357
Just curious what he has done that is so bad...
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Is that the fake one where Jesus brings one of his friends back from the dead to prove he didnt do it? The Gnostic texts are super fun and forgerific!
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The Bible is history before it's all been played out. Historically doesn't really matter in its light. The Bible says Jesus was crucified, he was crucified. The Word of God isn't critiqued by man's standards. We probably aren't arguing; just wanted to point that out.
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http://www.aintitcool.com/tb_display.cgi?id=17003#733142 But really it's just the question of will someone who makes their living as a political shill give an honest, unbiased review of a movie like this?
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the Gospel of Thomas is actually just a collection of jesus' wisdom, no stories or grand statements, just things the man is attributed to have said. And the only reason that the churh(es) don't recognize this simple piece of work written by a disciple (apostle?) and one of jesus' closest companions because it never say "you must worship me". and as far as god's chosen people...we are all god's chosen people whether we like it, believe it, chose it or not. whatever your concept of "god" is we all belong to the same world and same spirit and all these conditions and labels we have are things that we have created. the only label that matters is human being, a label we all share and cannot shake no matter how hard we try.
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Man has corrupted the word of God; how else can you account for the mixed bizness of the Catholic church?
Christ came to Earth to preach love and understanding of your fellow man (or woman) and it has been turned into this strange broken thing where people take the words of God and the prophets and of the Christ and twist them and re-edit them until they suit their own goals and ideals.
The Church and organized religion in general is about power and nothing more. Power over man and *God* - on earth at least.
Real Christianity is about doing God's work on earth and worshipping Him and loving Him and nothing more. If you truly love God and accept him in your heart then you find yourself doing God's work as easily as you sit in front of the TV and play PS2 or bitch about whether or not Star Wars 3 is going to rule or suck.
And God's work is simple, it is easy if you have truly accepted the love of God into your heart - it is only to love each man woman and child on this earth as though they were yourself, a God blessed and God made human being.
We humans fall far short of this though, we are imperfect beings and must struggle toward this ultimate goal - it is our destiny as laid down by God. We have only to reach out and accept His love in order to receive His love.
We have let go of God in our lives and we must find Him again.
Bickering and name calling and the whole "my God can beat up your God" attitude is doing nothing but perpetuating hate in our hearts and in our souls and keeping us from the glory of God.
Some would call it the work of Satan, but I do not think Satan has to work all that hard in this matter. -
The real reason that Jews can't eat pork is because raising pigs is too resource intensive for a desert nomadic people.
The reason given in the torah is just that they're unclean beasts.
I recommend a terrific book written by anthropologist Marvin Harris called Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches: The Riddles of Culture. It explores the rational reasons behind seemingly weird cultural practices like not eating pork, or cows, it also goes into the history of the early Christian church and the witch trials. Fascinating reading. -
Feb 13, 2004 6:16:37 PM CST
Jesus DIES at the end?! Thanks for the spoiler warning, jackass!
by plunky
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That's what the new testament says. Don't change the scriptures. I would never try and change anything in the Torah if I were to make it into a film. Lastly, because the jews killed Jesus, DOESN'T MEAN I HATE JEWS. Some people need to learn some basic principles about humans and existence.
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Because if it was the elves, then I kill those little bastards ONE BY ONE!
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Y know, sometimes a movie is just a movie, but I have to say something to the guy that blames US led war in Iraq on Christians. True, one of two reasons we are in Iraq is our dependence on foreign oil, but the number 2 reason we are there is for the safety and stability of Israel, our biggest middle eastern ally. Lest not forget that just about all the problems we have ever faced from the middle east are directly related to the US and British creation of Israel after WWII. Why do you think US and Britan were the two main leaders of the coalition? Why did Blair back Bush even though he knew the evidence wasn't there? Because he had a moral obligation since Britan was the co-creator of Isreal. Remember, Israel took the Golan Heights area from Syria AFTER Syria accepted the UN cease fire agreement, and also killed 30 American seamen aboard the USS Liberty so that they could do it without anyone knowing about it. This is history, so don't even think that Sept. 11 isn't 100% related to Americas allying with Israel, and don't think that the Palestinians don't think America is a puppet for Israel, because that is what they publically accuse us of being. So, don't you dare blame Iraqi war on Christians, it is a war for oil and a war for the comfort and stability of Israel. Know your facts before you start talking you self rightous son a bitch. By the way, I am neither Jew Or Christian, and I am very well educated. I am not anit-semetic, either. (And a strange thing, too, is Palestinians are also semites.)
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"I question why a movie, ostensibly about love in its purest and most sacred form, can inspire such hate." Isn't that the most pervasive irony about Christianity (one might say religion in general) that exists? You have an institution, school of thought, whatever you'd like to call it, devoted to the idea of worshipping a man who promoted the idea of loving those who hate you, which when filtered through human beings acting in their human ways, can be transmuted into a justification to cause atrocitites and incite hatred. Personally I believe it is because of the victim mentality inherit in the story. Christianity, you must admit, has a built-in persecution complex at its very core. But as for Anti-semites, I find it even more ironic that some choose to place the blame on what has to be the most persecuted group on the planet.
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Feb 13, 2004 11:18:12 PM CST
Reading through this talkback, I've discovered that hard core re
by theginger twit
Religion is bullshit. The sooner you all realise that the sooner we'll all just get along and start living happily in this oxygen tent atmosphere on this tiny speck of dust in the grand cosmos of infinite life.
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Actually, the gospel of thomas wasn't accepted by ANY church fathers because it was written in the middle of the second century, was heavily influenced by Gnosticism, and attributed some statements to Jesus that completely contradict what was known about him. PEACE
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Feb 13, 2004 11:27:13 PM CST
As a born again atheist, I think Gibson's getting a bad rap.
by bill maher
The Anti-Defamation League is a scumbag organization anyway. They sent a letter to Georgetown University that called Norman Finkelstein a "Holocaust denier". Finkelstein lost his entire family in the Nazi Holocaust, execpt for his parents, as he pointed out in his books. They have never apologized for this disgusting libel. I'm going to watch Gibson's version of a lame ancient myth simply out of spite. Wouldn't Jesus have wanted it that way? I mean, if he ever existed...
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You made the statement "Could any comment be more condescending than his [Benjamin Disraeli's] assertion that Christianity is "Judaism completed?" Judaism's incomplete? Not to Jews." Actually, yes; the Jews are openly, admittedly still waiting for the Prophesy of Messiah to be fulfilled. The Torah is filled with promises for Messiah, and the Jews are eagerly waiting for the day when He, the anointed One of God, appears. Any person of Jewish faith will tell you that they are still waiting for the completion of God's promise for a deliverer and Messiah. They aren't ashamed of this, and not one of the Jews I know feels that Disraeli's claim is the least bit offensive. So it is quite true that Christianity can be viewed as completed Judaism, without being the least bit condescending. It merely means that the Jews in Jesus time, who believed Jesus to be the Messiah, saw the Prophesy fulfilled in him, and consider God's promise to be complete. Jews that are still waiting for Messiah are still waiting for God to complete his promise to them. It is not condescending in any way, for it is the basis for the two faiths. One is waiting for Messiah while the other is not. I still pray for peace and harmony between those two groups, who share faith in the same God.
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The Gospel of Thomas was written in the 60's or 70's AD and is contemporary with Mark. It wasn't a Gnostic Gospel although it was adopted by them. It's just a sayings gospel with no narratives, no miracles, no resurrection and it doesn't say Jesus was God. It wasn't "rejected" by the early Church, it just wasn't known about. I think a couple of people may be mixing it up with the INFANCY gospel of Thomas which IS a late 2nd century apocryphal gospel which has a young boy Jesus killing other kids who piss him off (one kid bumps into him and instantly drops dead). Jesus comes off like Damien in that book. This "Rabbi" is either a JFJ or is just some fucking sell-out, collaborator, plant, bitch for Christians. Notice he didn't actually say anything about the movie. All he did was ass-kiss Christians and apologize for all the other Jews. This is the kind of guy who helped the Nazis round up the other Jews and herd them into ghettos. The article has zero credibility. This "Rabbi" is just the Jewish equivalent of an Uncle Tom. Fuck him. Oh, and all that crap about how we're ALL responsible for the crucifixion? Well fuck that. I'M not responsible. I wasn't even born yet. There were a few gazillion other people alive at the time who also had fuck-all to do with it. what a crock of shit.
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Feb 14, 2004 4:04:00 AM CST
Let's hear it for art that endorses killing cops and brutalizing
by heywood jablomie
That's most of the good stuff of the 20th century, no? Anyone understand, by the way, why Mel had to remake LAST TEMPTATION in the glossy style of BRAVEHEART?
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Well, that's the way things work in America now. The dominant extreme-left forces their values on the rest of society by forcibly shutting them up. This country should no longer be called the 'United States' but the 'Democrating Fascitsts States of Amerca.'
Censorship, in ALL its forms, is wrong. Censorship is, essentially, the oppression of one person's ideals by another. I'm Libertarian, and as such I do NOT support the extreme Rights attempts to censor video games and movies that wallow in glorious excess... but (and this is the trick about libertarianism - you can't be a selective hypocrite) I also strongly do NOT support the left's attempts to shut up Christianity and force their ideals on the opposing institution.
Blood, gore, and sex is Okay... but not if it's about Jesus. A movie is Ghandi is good (Even wins Oscars) but a movie about Jesus is not. This is reverse discrimination... a multitudinous group of people who blatantly DISCRIMINATE by telling the other innocent faction that THEY are the ones discriminating. This is SUPPOSED to be a FREE country... but apparently we've forgotten the meaning of the word LIBERTY. If you don't like something... don't support it-avoid it-ignore it. But don't you DARE try to CENSOR it. In short, there needs to be a mutual respect for people's freedoms. If I'm choosing a roommate, I have a RIGHT to discriminate against ANYONE for ANY reason - since I have to live with them. For example, schools telling children they can't pray or mention Jesus on school property, but Buddha or Darwin are acceptable. Attempt to remove the word GOD from the Pledge of Alliegiance... if you don't like it don't say it... but it's a historically important verse and how dare anyone try to censor or alter history. Yes, this country WAS founded by Christians... and that was primarily because of the persecution they faced in Europe at the hands of the Ruling Catholics & Church of England. Now, Christians are being increasingly persecuted in the same ways... just this time it's the Liberal movement instead of Bloody Mary. -
That's my second fave tagline from this movie. My fave is, "Same Make. Same Model. New Jesus"
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This is obviously a clash of values between individuals that have some deeply held beleifs. The problem with this is, our values are deep rooted within our limbic system which happens to be the primal and emotional part of our brain. When you challenge someone's values, you'll get an emotional response. The Passion of Christ has challenged many values, including Mr. Gibson's himself and I'm confident he would be the first to accept that statement. The arguements we've read and heard from this movie have been similiar to the arguments brought upon by "Last Temptation of Christ" and Kevin Smith's "Dogma". The movie will open and it will be successful wheather any religion likes it or not. It was Mr. Gibson's passion to create this passion, and we're disecting as if it may cause a civil war of religions. I'm personally interested in seeing the story unfold and trust the credibility of it's creator. As for everyone else, you'll continue to battle with messages and continue to be blind to the true message that's right in front of your face.
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All of the above talkbacks are irrefutable proof that all ORGANIZED religions should be abolished. Spirituality is fine and dandy and probably even good for you, but organized religion is just too much for a globalized world to handle.
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Oh, and did Harry just put a DISCLAIMER on the end of that article? Just when you thought you've seen it all. Very interesting indeed. M
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"I refer to Him as 'The man who lives in the clouds.' Kinda keeps him on my level, ya know ? He does'nt give me anything i don't want. I don't give him anything he does'nt need."
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This country was founded by religious persons, to be sure, but it's a gross misrepresentation to call them Christian in the sense we think of Christians today. While some were Christian, most of them were staunch rationalists. Jefferson, a deist, had very strong things to say about Christianity. Franklin had this to say, "As to Jesus of Nazareth... I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see... and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity". Thomas Paine was as well (in fact, he slipped into out-and-out atheism at times as you can see by reading his quotes). The founding fathers were impressively neutral concerning religious beliefs for all, and their own beliefs were clearly less motivated by faith (as todays Christians primarily are) than by rational thought.
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This isnt news to me, and Im not sure why Jews assume it will be to the general public. This is a movie qbout CHRISTIAN theology. Ultimately, you'd be a fool to let the protests get you down or affect your view of Jewish people (not to mention, you'd be a fool to let the movie affect your view of the Jewish community). Jews who are "called" to protest this movie can easily be compared to extreme christians.
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I have, for a long time, harboured the ambition of one day making a film about the passion of christ that was as stark and beautiful as Cadoret's Ecce Homo. Obviously, Gibson has gone ahead and done it, so i guess i'll just have to find another tale to tell one day. Anyhoo, the thing here is, the story of Jesus's crucifixion obviously has the potential to drum up seriously heated emotions. However, what we are missing here, is the fact that this is a film, to be played in theatres, and tv screens in hotels with no 24 hour porn. To generalise insanely, since that seems to be the predominant tactic in this Talk Back, most folks tend not to go to the movies for their guidance. they go to churches, if their religious, or they go to bars, if they prefer spirits of a different nature. and sometimes they do both. But the point is, this story is being told all over the world every night of the week, and several times on a sunday. put this in perspective! This is nothing new!! And if Gibson feels he wants to tell this story, he has to tell it. He didnt write it, after all. But herein lies the point, regardless of the film itself, which VERY FEW have seen, the debate drummed up by this, the accusations, the hate-yuack, is an unpleasant byproduct. But Mel's bound to have known this would happen. So the question is, then, should he have been a little less niave, and maybe thought about holding things off for a while? i don't know. im talking in circles here, i know. But, should a work of art be exempt from any damage, outrage, whatever it causes? Check out http://mondoirlando.blogspot.com, and you'll see a posting leading to an extract from Mark Bain's 9/11. This piece is obviously an important work, but it can inspire just the same rabid emotions as Passion might. Dealing with stuff like this, which is dealing with racist, sectarian emotions, is something which needs to be adressed correctly. It's a fine line between depiction and demonising. Anyhow, im looking forward to this. (And Bain's work as well.) http://mondoirlando.blogspot.com
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Feb 14, 2004 8:31:52 PM CST
Lapin is a right wing nut who's a Pat Buchanan supporter
by corporategoon
Something the editors of this site would know if they'd done five minutes of research.
And by no coincidence, all the Jewish 'defenders' of the movie that could be found are either on the Gibson payroll or affiliated with the religious right like Lapin and Medved and have no role within the actual Jewish community. -
The thing I hate about new comic book movies is that they take what we already know and like and change it. The same thing is going on in society. People are upset because this film may depict the Jews as being responsible for the death of Christ. Well, they were. At least the Jewish leadership and a crowd of people that they incited, which is hardly every Jew, but it's just easier to say "The Jews". The Jews OF THAT TIME were responsible. I promise you all not one of them are alive today. No Jew alive today is responsible for the death of Christ. Have Christians done some crappy stuff throughout the years? Yup. We acknowledge it, our bad. That doesn't make Christians today responsible for bad things that happened long ago. Trust me, Christians aren't standing around the water bubbler at work saying, "Man, I'm still sore about those crusades, let's start that up again". This whole "we can't depict the Jews as having killed Christ" thing is like saying The Longest Day is a bad movie because it makes it look like the Nazis, generalized as "Germans", were doing some bad stuff". Well, they were.
And while I'm at it, I'm a devout Catholic, go to Mass every Sunday, believe everything the church teaches. Now, I know you pompus athiests think that makes me a robot, a mindless automoton who simply follows without questioning, but that doesn't make it true. I believe because I choose to. Can I prove that God exists? Nope. That's how I'd define faith, belief without evidence. Can you athiests prove that God doesn't exist? Didn't think so. So why don't you stop treating anyone who believes in God, or Gods, as small minded idiots. You never see believers slamming athiests, but for some reason it's ok to insult believers. It's not right. -
preface: not religious but have read the bible in its entirety. favorite book - ecclesiastes. worst book - the ones with all the goddamn cubits!
glad the rabbi said that the movie is a visualized rendition of the gospels. cuz most of the ADL criticism seems more properly lobbied not against the movie but the source material - the gospels.
ALL MEDIA DESPERATELY WANTS TO AVOID THAT SHOWDOWN APPARENTLY(!!!) but that's where the conflict (if there's gotta be one) rightly belongs.
even the newsweek article kept doing 'popup video factoids' but about how certain points are historically unlikely and such....
BUT THE POINT IS - THEY'RE IN THE GOSPELS!!!
the newsweek article had a problem with pontius pilate's portrayal as being overly sympathetic but it's in the gospels that way... his wife has a bad premonition... 'you want me to let go of barrabas instead of this guy?' and 'alright then, i wash my hands of the whole business...'
historically right or wrong, this stuff is in the gospels.
also, the whole 'blood curse' thing that seems to be now excised... that's in the gospels too. it's in matt....
i would challenge people charging the movie with antisemitism to get a copy of the gospels and a black pen and cross out what they feel is offensive - point is, it is indeed the source material.
so if they really want to be thorough about it, they should argue for a rewrite of the new testament, not just a reedit of the movie.
i guess the smartest thing mel could have done was to change around the cast of characters so that the commies did it or something - but basically, it does indeed seem to be that he just made an adaptation of the gospels.
and whether the gospels are themselves historically inaccurate or are driven by human designs (as the newsweek article states) is at that point irrelevant.
and of course, most protestant christians would not believe in the 'errancy' of the gospels at all... 'inspired word of god' y'know....
and also to newsweek: COME ON!!! some of these people have problems with the word 'evolution' for fuck's sake! the way they wrote about this movie was just idiotically irrelevant.
and finally, of course the new testament is not antisemitic... jesus was a jew, his mom's a jew, joe is a jew, his buddies were jews... basically, everybody but the romans were jews - and nobody liked THEM....
how in the world could ALL the protagonists be jews and yet the film get charged with antisemitism?
i understand that jews are concerned with the material inadvertently inspiring antisemitism as it did in the past. but that's a different matter than criticizing the material itself.
i don't think the movie is arguing that the inquisition and the like were good things.
i seriously doubt mel's antisemitic and people shouldn't be nervous that the movie is reminding modern audiences of what they claim they believe already.
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factoid: semitic can also be rendered 'shemitic' and it refers to the sons of shem, one of the sons of noah (to whom all current humanity can supposedly trace roots too). jews and arabs are both considered sons of shem... although heck, that's obvious, they're both sons of abe. but WTF kinda name is HAGAR?! i wouldn't hook up with a chick named HAGAR?
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obligatory jokes:
- hope they use the original costume.
- are they gonna depict the ressurection? is it gonna be an aerial shot with jesus among his disciples... then he extends his fist upward and then he takes flights, streaking past camera - as rage against the machine blares into credits? COME ON!
- is it choreographed by acclaimed hong kong action director yuen wo ping?
- is harvey keitel in this one?
- does jesus ever give a stirring speech while on horseback at some point?
- tarantino should do the sequel!
y'know, at the end of the world when god invades the earth. that would fucking rule.... -
indirectly. it ends up being about the lifestyle.
unbelievers are people whose essential identity is that of 'going to hell'. :) but no offense taken... i'm very amused by that.
also, the whole 'no gay marriage' thang isn't exactly driven by hindus. and of course the chicken and the egg argument, etc ad nauseum. in fact, i would argue that it's almost impossible for believers NOT to slam non believers. the problem with religions that claim that they are RIGHT is that everybody else ain't just different. they're wrong.
and that's a slam that keeps on givin' in our society.
but i'm just pointing out an observation. not arguing that people SHOULD slam one another.
i've always felt that the word 'tolerance' when applied to races sounds horrible. ACCEPTANCE is what we should strive for there. but when it comes to zero sum religions, tolerance is a good and accurate goal. -
Feb 15, 2004 12:54:19 PM CST
the whole 'no gay marriage' thang isn't exactly driven by hindus
by jackiejokeman
In India, where lotsa Hindus live, not only is gay marriage illegal but being homosexual is too. Go ahead and try and make your point but just dont make crap up.
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When you get to the bottom-line, this movie is nothing more than a cinematic re-hashing of a re-hashing of a translation of a translation of a story formed by word-of-mouth, which itself is probably just a conglomerate of several other re-hashed stories.
The film is almost certain to cause some people some problems somewhere. And that's just a crying shame. It's the side-effect of art.
Remember when the parents of some columbine victims sued the filmmakers of The Basketball Diaries? The thing that really got me about that case was they were suing the wrong movie. It was always blantly obvious to me that Christian Slater in Heathers was the real Trenchcoat Mafia Don. Any such lawsuit is stupid. People are responsible for their own actions.
And that's the real culprit. People cause problems. Religion, race, age, ethnicity, sectionalism, culture, language, social status, politics... all that's just an excuse or at worst, a catalyst.
Take away religion and we got ten other excuses to hate somebody.
It doesn't matter what happened some 2000 years ago. There are no truths, there are only stories. The Jesus story is true only in that it is a story.
American history is largely mythological itself. There is no Johnny Appleseed, George Washington didn't chop down any cherry tree, Betsy Ross did not sew the first american flag, Paul Revere never made his famous ride (he was captured by the British), there were white slaves, Washington's Army was not starving and freezing to death at Valley Forge; marching barefoot in the snow - they were well stocked, supplied and armed.
Atheists would do well to examine many of their own beliefs about secular history before criticizing believers of religions. (Hey, I think Jesus had a metaphor about a mote in the eye relating to that).
"Truth", "Facts", "Reality", and "evidence" are all subjective things - and all related to perception. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
At the end of the day, Mel Gibson made a movie. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. -
Molesting boys doesn't automatically make you a priest dude. Oh, and your comments were dumb.
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ummm, actually, i had no idea about hindus in india. none whatsoever. i was talking about the forces in america that are mobilized against issues like gay marriage, abortion, etc. to my knowledge, this is not an issue that american hindus, shintoists, buddhists, wiccans, etc - other non monotheistic religions - engage politically. and that was my point. actually, my point was that believers slam atheists all the time.
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i know i'm late, but i agree with every word you said.
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actually,
the catholic church seems INORDINATELY concerned with the potential for the inflaming of catholic antisemitism but this isn't a MODERN concern is it? is there anywhere in the world currently where catholic antisemitism is a problem? it seems to me that it would be a much more protestant problem with hate groups/white supremacists in america and europe claiming protestant affiliation.... right? (and of course, we all know where mel stands in regards to such groups... nobody remembers lethal weapon 2?!) it seems that rome is trying to make ammends for sins committed in the middle ages. -
I think it's pretty hilarious that Bahamut-Kun is able to not only refute most of the critiques aimed at his opinions, but lay a stinger on the end of each clever reply. He's witty, informed, and obviously mean. Not many of you are really up to the challenge, so please, for the sake of all compassionate readers of this forum, stop making such plump targets of your soft bellies.______I don't agree with everything he's written, and god knows he's acing out, (who can blame him, with you boys around) but for all the whining I read here concerning the 'radical left's' censorship and 'P.C. fascism', when you get a guy who's really willing to let fly with his true beliefs, no matter how harshly unpopular, what do you do? You complain some more and crap all over him._______ keep it up, Bahamat, I may not necessarily be in your corner, but you've made it worth the price of admission.
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there was that post by that bah-fuck guy.. i was gonna really rip the shit out of him with his own racist pathetic comments.. but then figured who cares.. he's a moron... no.. this post.. despite bieng at the very bottom and probably not gonna be read... is posted for one reason... to rebuff an AGE OLD DOGMA relating to God's 'Chosen People'....... everywhere i go.. everyone i talk to says that the Jews are the chosen people.. forgive me.. but if you read the text that you claim to follow the faith of then you would understand how UNTRUE that is... Jews aren't God's 'Chosen People'.... here's the truth.. you ready? ALL THREE RILIGIONS ARE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.... you see.. in all three.. it says that God told Abraham that he will make nations out of him. That ALL OF ABRAHAMS CHILDREN are the 'Chosen People'......... || care for a riligious lesson? i'll make it quick: Abraham marries Sarah. Sarah can't have kids. Sarah gives Abraham Handmaiden. Handmaiden has child, the First-born...Ishmail (I'm Muslim.. im not sure what they are called in Christianity..Caan and Abel?)... Sarah later has child, Isaac. Shuns handmaiden and firstborn. Out of Isaac comes Jews and Christians. Out of Ishmail comes the Muslims. THEREFORE ALL THREE ARE GOD's CHOSEN PEOPLE, BECAUSE ALL THREE ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHM... regardless of the shunning and the 'memory loss' of who was the real firstborn..... there.. i said my peace. May you all be blessed, by OUR God.
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The Christians who founded America didn't leave Europe because they were persecuted for their religious beliefs-- they left because they were being prevented from persecuting others for their religious beliefs._____
just a heads up. -
...that a movie about a man that's supposed to be the symbol of peace, love and understanding (And i'm not a christian) is spawning so many hateful discussions about racial hatreds that make no sense in this century... I mean, i never really understood the hostility against jewish people, but the "You killed christ" topic is ridiculous... And the part of the jewish community who brought it up has made a great mistake...
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Because, you know, Rabbi Lapin... "Lapin" means "Rabbit" in French. So... you see... "Rabbit Rabbit"!!! So I was just wondering.
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