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I am – Hercules!!

Angel 5.11 FAQ

What’s it called?


Who’s responsible?

Teleplay is credited to Steve DeKnight (“Hellbound,” “Destiny”) and Drew Goddard (“Lineage”).

What did Coax say about this one back on Nov. 8?

In 5.11, titled “Damage,” Team Angel gets involved with a petite twentysomething escaped mental patient named Dana who mysteriously gained superhuman strength “several months ago.” What could that be about?

A few other interesting details:

* The surviving nerd of doom, Andrew Wells, will be hanging about. He reveals that “Mr. Giles has been training me. I’m faster. Stronger.”

* Dana has been dreaming about other slayers. She enjoys using a bone saw to carve things off strangers.

* Speaking of which: By the time the fifth season reaches its midpoint, Mr. Xander Harris will no longer be the only major Buffiverse player to find himself making do without a key body part.

Huh. What does TV Guide say?

“A psychotic vampire slayer escapes from a mental hospital and a familiar face from Sunnydale is dispatched to L.A. to track her down before she can harm her intended prey: Spike. Andrew: Tom Lenk. Dana: Navi Rawat. Harmony: Mercedes McNab.”

The big news?

Thanks to Andrew, “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” fans hungering for details on what’s become of the surviving Scoobs will get a huge number of hints this week. Plus? Andrew now appears to be a junior watcher, looking and dressing a lot like Dr. Who.

What’s Andrew doing in Los Angeles?

“Wes contacted Rupert Giles,” explains Angel. “He's sendin' his top guy.”

Does Andrew have more to say about what’s become of Mr. Giles?

He does. “Mr. Giles and a few key Sunnydale alum have been tracking down the recently chosen,” the former Nerd of Doom explains.

Does Andrew bring news of Buffy and the other Scoobs?

Tons! The sense is that the Scoobs have essentially been transformed into a new watchers council, seeking, gathering and training hundreds or thousands of newly minted slayers.

Thousands of slayers??

“There are many potentials, as we experts call them,” notes Andrew as he briefs Team Angel. “Hundreds...maybe thousands per generation.”

Tell us what the core Scoobs are up to!

“Xander's in Africa. He sent me an mbuna fish,” says Andrew. “And Willow and Kennedy are in Brazil. They're based in Sao Paulo, but, um, every time I talk to them, they're in Rio.” Buffy and Dawn now make their home in Rome, with Dawn enrolled in school there. “She was rounding slayers up in Europe, decided she liked it there, I guess.”

Why is the slayer hot for Spike?

Well, she is, after all, a vampire slayer. And it helps to remember that all potentials carry the memories of all prior slayers. Chinese slayers. New York slayers.

Has Spike signed on with Team Angel since last episode?

No. He’s still championing the weak as a solo act. He and Angel arrive separately to deal with the crazy slayer problem.

Does anyone call the Lindsay-looking guy (LLG) “Sean” this week?

LLG is wholly absent this week.

Does the LLG continue to act all Doyle-like?

We learn how Angel found out about the crazy slayer, but I can’t recall if was explained who tipped Spike. Did “Doyle” have another “vision”?

What about Eve?

She’s not around, but is much discussed. They don’t feel they have enough evidence to go after her, but her visitations to the L.A. branch will feaure a lot more supervision.

I’m new to “Angel,” and television generally. What is this “Sunnydale” of which TV Guide speaks? Is it anywhere near “Smallville” or “Stuckeyville”?

Well, it’s … Get out of my office!!

What’s good?

A lot! All the updates on the Scoobs, the big mystery behind the crazy slayer’s connection to Spike, the big “Butterfly Effect” moment, and a terrific ending that suggests Buffy’s attitude toward Angel these days is a lot different than it was in 7.22.

What’s not so good?

Goddard’s work on “Angel” still doesn’t seem to be quite as entertaining as it was on “Buffy,” but it’s still pretty great.

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

“She's a monster.” “She's an innocent victim.” “So were we... once upon a time. Once upon a time.”

Herc’s rating for “Angel” 5.11?


The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

***** better than we deserve

**** better than most motion pictures

*** actually worth your valuable time

** as horrible as most stuff on TV

* makes you quietly pray for bulletins

9 p.m. Wednesday. The WB.

Swing the crebbil!

I am – Hercules!!

Looking for bumper stickers, plush toys and girls’ underwear covered with cartoon double-amputees? Visit The Herc Store!

Readers Talkback
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  • Jan. 28, 2004, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Previous memories

    by Doc Brown

    Since when do slayers carrie memories of past slayers? Or is this just becauseof Willow's spell?

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 2:17 p.m. CST

    Andrew is his best man?

    by sheltrk

    Who knew? I guess Andrew's kind of like Wes. Former nerd turned into a tough-guy watcher/rogue demon hunter? Should be cool.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 2:25 p.m. CST

    Dawn on her Eurotrip

    by radjac29

    How can she go to school, train slayers, and have time for her roadtrips to be filmed for Eurotrip, does buffy know?

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 2:42 p.m. CST

    "His Best Man"

    by bpeace

    Well, keep in mind that Giles doesn't particularly like Angel. Best man, indeed. Heh.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Faith and Wood

    by Kegboy

    I was about to bitch about no mention of them, but then I remembered that Principal Wood is now the President's Chief of Staff, and Faith works in a morgue. Suits her, doesn't it.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 2:49 p.m. CST

    Andrew joining cast full time?

    by Josef K

    Maybe he'll take over Fred's spot...hmmmm

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 5:31 p.m. CST

    Re: Previous Memories

    by dankato

    I have the same question. Unless Willow did something when she upgraded all the potentials this doesn't make sense. Makes the episode in Season 5 "Fool for Love" seem unnecessary then.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 7:53 p.m. CST


    by BLADE

    I follow the shows pretty close and never heard/remeber this little tid-bit. Maybe the idea was introduced in this Episode. Seems to me like 12 year old girls having memories of banging Spike and Angel (and the other 10,000 peeps Vamp Slayers have banged, Filthy Skanks)would kinda suck.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 8:04 p.m. CST

    re: top guy.....?

    by PiltDownMan

    "Top guy"...? Heh. And Blade the whole "Slayer memory" thing is a leftover from the Buffy movie kinda like that old comic Mr. Monster. Ding dong Fred is toast. And 86 Gunn while your at it. Hey losing two lame characters to gain the services of the lovely Alyson Hannigan I could live with just ditch that Kennedy chick. Her character was LAME to the 10th power.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 8:50 p.m. CST

    Weadons cunning plan....

    by foonacha

    Might be the beginning of a pattern here... Gradually replace all the "Angel" regulars with the cast of "Buffy". Bring in Willow to replace the soon-to-be-deceased fred: Andrew to replace Giles: Xander cos he 8really* needs the gig since Buffy finished...Stick Mr Boreanaz in a Blond wig & wax his legs...who`d notice?

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:03 p.m. CST

    soo good..... hot damn..

    by TAE3001

    the best damn all made sense...even the ending great spike and angel Andrew!!!!..OOh shit ...buffy not trustin Angel..Quote"Guess who gave the orders" damn damn,,,, the the preview of the 100 episode looks great., looks like "old cordy" san s buffy and angel 1 is back...sooo excited

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:05 p.m. CST


    by narky

    can u guys stop mentioning the spoiler for future episodes. this post doesn't mention it and youre spoiling people who are here just for tonights ep.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:09 p.m. CST

    Previous Memories

    by RoboRitter

    I think this idea actually goes as far back as the original movie.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Good Epsiode

    by Virtual Satyr

    Love Andrew's standing up to Angel at the end. Of course, he had some back up, but kick ass none the less. Who was that Harry Knowles looking mo-fo in the AOL commercial?

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:10 p.m. CST

    WOW!! What a GREAT ep!!!

    by KnightFire

    WOW that sent up alot of stuff that could happen with the Scoobies. Buffy not trusting Angel, but still not knowing Spike is alive. Where will he side when the confrontation happens. It could be a great use of Sarah Michelle Gellar if and when she decides to show up on Angel. Also makes you wonder if that is where Cordy goes after next week's episode. It really seems like this show is only going to get stronger.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:11 p.m. CST

    The Watchers vs. Team Angel

    by Forget_Byron

    That's my theory. When they were wheeling out the Slayer and Spike at the end of the ep, I suddenly recalled Wes' "dad" came to visit. 'Cept it wasn't his dad; it was an android with detailed files on Wes, enough that it was able to fool even Wes himself. It occurred to me then: who else would have such information? And the more Andrew kept talking, the more sense it made. The new Watcher's Council doesn't trust Team Angel. They're probably the ones behind the attempt to make Spike go solo. If he can become the champion in place of Angel, then when the Apocalypse comes, the light side will still have the vampire with a soul on its side. Somehow, Giles managed to get Lindsey to help, and Eve, after the attempt to take away Angel's will failed. I'm just wondering how long it will be before Angel tells the gang what the price was for his acceptance of the role as the head of Wolfram and Hart. Think about it. If no one remembers Connor, then no one can understand his choice. To those who are no longer close to him, such as Buffy, they probably think he's flipped sides. Given in to the darker nature, that sort of thing. What's more, the Watcher's Council knows, and BUFFY KNOWS, that Spike is alive. Those are my thoughts. Discuss.

  • Love the new vampire slayer! Kinda like BTVS season 3 Faith on crack. Hope she comes back...she'd fit in well on the show. Maybe, if there's a season 6, she can show up just sane enough to interact with people, but still nuts enough to be hot ass kicking chick! Nice move having Buffy not trust Angel anymore. Practical...since SMG isn't available, it makes sense that Buffy wouldn't come around if she doesn't trust Angel. Also, from a plot standpoint it makes sense. Buffy and the scoobies have to know Wolfram and Hart want to unleash Angelus, and must wonder why he would willingly walk into a trap like that. Overall, my favorite ep. of the season so far, and there have been some good ones. So much great stuff...the army of slayers, Spike finally contemplating the consequences of his actions on others, and ANDREW'S LITTLE BROWN BAG CHEETOS SNACK!! I can imagine Giles fixing it for him before he walked out the door of watcher's headquarters. Brilliant!!

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:20 p.m. CST

    I thought this ep rocked!

    by HavokJD

    Very strong....many episodes this season are great. I think everything is much better than last season. The Spike/Angel mooments this year are great and the one this ep is very poignant. I do have to agree with a previous poster that the whole "Buffy not trusting" Angel thing is bit out of continuity with the Angel appearance in Buffy last season. Too much of a flip flop in trust don't you think? Even though I do see here being forceful about getting the "psycho slayer". It could be that Andrew has over-exaggerated the feelings in the Scooby camp (as would be fitting with his character). The theme of the show and the direction of writing in other episodes seems to suggest otherwise, since they seem intent on force feeding us that "no-one" knows what side Angel is on since joining Wolfram & Hart. Why would Buffy have a strong aversion to Wolfram & Hart anyway? No encounters with them as far as I know.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:25 p.m. CST

    Buffy DOESN'T know Spike is alive...

    by HavokJD

    I thought this ep confirmed that with Andrew pretty much saying so. So that's strike one against the conspiracy theory. And again, I would say a conspiracy theory as far as Scoobies vs Team Angel is a little far fetched and against continuity. Angel came to help Buffy not too long ago in the time line, just a few months. Buffy would throw away all that history without talking to him about what he is doing? I can see Giles and Xander mistrusting Angel, but I don't see it with Buffy. I think the conspiracy theory is a little far fetched and I hope that is not the direction they take, unless they provide some more solid evidence and background.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:33 p.m. CST

    "Like nickels?!!!"

    by Big Bad Clone

    Great use of Andrew and his Tale of the Slayer(s) of the Vam-pyres. Wished I hadn't spoiled myself about the hands-free Spike. One of the best eps this season (although I fucking missed the one with Wes' robot dad).

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:34 p.m. CST


    by Virtual Satyr

    Yeah I think Andrew's line about Buffy not trusting Angel was just Andrew screwing with Angel's head. But then again, they did forsee a problem with Andrew taking the Slayer back to Europe. Hmmm.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 10:51 p.m. CST


    by Speedstream

    I am awe struck at tonight's episode! It was AMAZING!! 1st and foremost...the Angel/Spike moment at the end is one of the single best scenes I have seen all season. It captured how in-depth the relationship between Anfel and Spike really is!! It also shed all the light and difference between Angel and Spike...and how they both dea; with there soul's. Angel...was specifically for the evil. He revelled in it. He lived in it. He did it because evil was consuming his very being. Spike on the other hand...could have cared less about the evil portion of it. He was in it for the kill...the thrill...and the kicks. That was it. He didn't care about who he was really killing after they were dead...they were just another mark on the chalk. Also...back in Buffy season 2...when the Judge looked into both Spike and Angelus...Spike still had some human emotions...where Angelus was totally void and harbored NOTHING but evil! This is why Angel always felt had had to CONTINUE atoning...he knew the true nature of evil. Once that is experianced...I don't believe you can ever totally turn away from it. Even with a soul. I think now that Spike has expieranced a true aspect of evil...he is gunna allow his soul to really "catch up with him." He was so out of his mind due to the First back in Buffy season 7...that i don't think his soul ever really burned the way Angel's did...allowing him to fully understand all the things he'd done wrong. I think that changed tonight. I think that he finally allowed his soul to "set in" and he will really start to understand his soul...and redemption.*******I think that because it is Angel who truly understands his soul...the redemption that comes with it...and the price you have to pay for it...that it will be he who Shanshu's. I think tonight showed that. I don't think there is any further proof needed. matter how cool Spike is and how much he as the superior charector!!! Later days

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 11:03 p.m. CST

    so crappin funny!

    by raisingarizona

    andrew totally killed me tonight! with the little demon horns he made behind fred's head . . . the "frodo, he's alive comment" . . . "viggo mortensen abs" . . . "82% more manly" . . . and that "yoda knows" crack. i hope he comes back again. angel gets so damn HEAVY sometimes - it needs a little lightening up.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 11:04 p.m. CST

    Good episode....

    by thewoodpecker

    There were a few logic errors, but I'm sure they will have some explanation in future episodes. Anyway, the memory thing deals with dead slayers as I recall, so Bangle and Spuffy are absent until this point. I don't buy that Sunnydale v. Team Angel is the case, because that would invovle more crossovers, and set up needing more Buffy refences. Nice idea for the movie, however. Also, the damage caused by Eve and Linsday would not be a consequence the Scoobs would be willing to take. Still, this episode packed a major punch for Angel and Spike, and the ending was key. The actor who plays Andrew pulled it off in a big way. Just think: another reason for Angel to brood. Can't wait for next week.

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 11:25 p.m. CST

    the theory...Forgot_Byron...

    by Speedstream

    I just wanted to say...i hope that your theory is wrong. As much as a think a Team Angel vs. Team Buffy right would be AWESOME...i hope it doesn't happen the way u theorized. I hope we eventually see the trust issue between Angel and Buffy resolved...though i am sure that will not be this season. SMG better shape up and get her @$$ back here to start gettin some of this resolved! Though I hope its not soon...i hope it eventually does.*******It was sweet to see Andrew evolove as a charector. Ok...but he's Giles best? And...if Giles REALLY didn't trust Angel...why would he have agreed to help them in the 1st place? *******Lastly, because the UK does not have season 4 out on DVD yet for some reason...i am looking for anyone who has GOOD QUALITY ANGEL season 4 on VHS. I am willing to pay for good copies as long as i can see that the quality is good. If anyone can help me out me at or the email attached to my name link. Also...if anyone knows of the model and brand of leather coat that Angel wore in Season 2 and Spike has always worn...I am gunna pass it on to a internet wholesaler friend of mine to market the coats online...because in our area...there is a small demand for well as at conventions around the country. So if anyone knows that...or a place online or elsewhere to find them or a picture of them...let me know again, at the addresses above.*******As always...later days

  • Jan. 28, 2004, 11:57 p.m. CST

    no holes at all

    by fastpilot

    Buffy doesn't know Spike is alive, or she would have been directly involved. She doesn't remember Connor (or at least know about the deal) or she would have been involved (or at least had no trust issues with Angel). I think in fact a level of distrust arises in the Scoobies with respect to Angel and Wolfram and Hart. Why would you assume the Scoobies would be ignorant of the leading evil coproration on the planet, and one in their former backyard besides? Giles is running North American operations, probably from Cleveland. He at least doesn't trust Angel/W&H. He doesn't obviously step on Angel's toes, and sends his best/disposable man to initiate contact and observe. Angel doesn't betray their common interest, and backs down when the Slayers (before kept in the background) come to claim their sister. This may allay some of the trust issues.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:01 a.m. CST


    by fastpilot

    Slayers tend to relive the past lives of Slayers in their dreams. Doesn't mean they'll oh so conveniently relive the relevant parts of the life a Slayer that help them in a current situation. I wanna know how many of the current Slayers wake up with the sweats from Buffy 5.22 swan dive. Or, if she kicked a third time when she was shot, if the New Slayers relive Buffy waking up in her coffin.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:04 a.m. CST

    Andrew pt 2

    by Virtual Satyr

    Andrew pretty much gave us the rason why his 12 Slayers didn't look for Psycho Slayer. They let Angel do all the work. Remember, this is clever Andrew, who, along with Spike, saved the world.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:05 a.m. CST

    T2- Judgement Day opening sequence knockoff-

    by SkiffyPup

    Don'tcha think? Toatal shout out.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:15 a.m. CST

    the past memories

    by jello1235

    Okay, for one thing, this was originated in the movie (so was periods are the slayer's vampire senses, but who cares about that one). Also, the potential was crazy, I'm sure that may have added some juice to the whole memory thing.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:16 a.m. CST

    Angel and Buffy

    by Thibor113

    To me this was the best episode of the season. I have always thought that Buffy and Angel were the two best shows on TV. However since this season of Angel has started, I have felt that something is missing. Spike has been a great asset to the cast but I guess I just needed a little more. Having Andrew on todays episode has proven this to me. He gave a sort of cohesiveness to the two shows that has been needed since Buffy ended. I'm not saying that a Buffy castmember should pop up on Angel every episode. But if it can happen at least every once in a while, I think that Angel could only benefit from that process.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:11 a.m. CST

    Cordy and death...

    by Speedstream

    If they kill Cordy...which is now the popular rumor...that would be just GAY!! It would suck! And be stupid and dumb!!! She is some of the glue that makes up that show...even without her presence...knowing that is around gives us some of the cohesivness. I would be pissed if they killed her. an interview w/ her at states that they leave the door open for her to come back. What about that? Oye...the suspense for next week is killin me already...! later days

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:16 a.m. CST

    Gotta disagree Herc...

    by eternal76

    This was a 4 star episode, I mean, have you seen the pieces of shit films that have come out lately? I dug it. There wasn't a single thing wrong with this episode.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:23 a.m. CST

    "Like X-Men without the dissapointing 3rd act"

    by buddah674

    WOW! Quite a zinger! Didn't Whedon do a uncredited re-write or treatment of X-Men? Combine that with the Aliens:Ressurection nod 2 weeks ago and We seem to be purging some moviemaking demons. And to all you Andrew haters, he rocks he rocks, he hits a little too close to home but SO FUNNY. "He's alive frodo?" c'mon who wasn't laughing at that! Could not stop laughing. I'm enjoying the slow burn of finding out Wolfram and Heart is corrupting them but c'mon lets go everyone knows at this point, lets do something about it. The New Watchers vs. Team Angel is a fanboys wet dream. I don't know if it could get dome but the possibilities. Can't wait till next week. Cordy and 100th ep. I'd give this one ****

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:29 a.m. CST

    Lazy Writing

    by dankato

    People already disagree with me but I don't consider this to be a great episode. I consider the memories of previous slayers thoughts a major break in continuity and in my experience major breaks in continuity coincide with "jump the shark" moments. While the memories rule may come from the movie I have to assume that the rule was thrown away once the Buffy Season 5 ep "Fool for Love" (Buffy asks Spike how he was able to kill 2 slayers) was aired. This rule makes that whole episode unnecessary as Buffy should have been able to "remember" how the previous slayers felt just before they died. It would also make training the potentials and the journals that they keep unnecessary. And unless Andrew is lying, Buffy suddenly not trusting Angel is also an example of pull facts from your ass writing. First of all, does Team Buffy even know about W&H? And has Angel (who did the right thing for everyone by walking away from Buffy after Season 3) done anything so bad as to make Buffy believe that he has turned to the dark side? I can see her not trusting W&H (assuming that she researched them) but Angel has given her no reason (that we've seen as viewers) to not trust him as a person. So all in all this ep amounted to 2 major breaks in continuity so that we can get a new favorite slayer and a reason for Angel and Spike to brood together. Wonderful.....

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:38 a.m. CST

    Good ep.

    by Frank_Serpico

    Really liked how Angel was able to pick up on Dana being a slayer. I was really hoping that Angel would deliver a swift kick up Andew's faggoty ass. Angel does all the work and this nerd has the gall to tell him that he's not one of the good guys anymore. Best part was Spike's pathetic attempts to be an Angel wannabe resulting in him getting his ass kicked AND his hands chopped off. He should realize now that just having a soul doesnt make him Angel . All in all great ep. just hope Giles shows up in L.A. soon !!

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:43 a.m. CST

    So is Andrew "out" yet?

    by Logo Lou

    I missed most of the UPN years of Buffy. Did Andrew come out as gay like Willow? Or just bi? Or is he the old school television "he's gay but we just don't say it so we infere it a lot." Maybe the world isn't ready for a queer fanboy watcher. I bet he likes the Cleveland Indians...

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:13 a.m. CST

    I agree, 4 and a half stars

    by Whedon

    While I can see some of your perspectives I myself find Andrew hilarious. I'm have a hard time believing you guys didn't even crack a smile when he said "he's alive Frodo" or "Nickels?!". Classic in my eyes but to each his own I guess. I wouldn't mind seeing him pop up a couple times next year if ATS gets renewed. Very entertaining episode all the way around with a great ending with Spike finally realizing that trying to be the champion Angel has been over the last couple of years is not all its cracked up to be. That ending showed for the first time Spike realized that even though he did not do those things to Dana he had done similar things many times before which is why he had such a hard time justifying why she was wrong in doing what she was doing. He was seeing things through Angel's eyes for a moment and even though he should and will remain a unique personality in himself, he finally gets what angel is doing and what he has to deal with. Great moment.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:15 a.m. CST

    One more thing I liked...

    by Whedon

    How Andrew kept calling Wes, "Pryce" like he was his superior and the look Wes gave him when he mentions how Giles felt about him. I'm with NYK as far as getting Trachtenberg's fine ass back on a ME show. Joss make it happen.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:24 a.m. CST

    Angel's Sudden Fighting Skills

    by dankato

    Good to see that Angel's been training ever since he got his ass handed to him by Spike. Let me get this straight: Angel - Has had 5 fights with slayers that we know of with these results: Kendra - Nearly killed by her by being trapped in a cage with daylight coming in a few hours. Buffy - End of S2 - Killed Faith - Saved by Buffy as Faith nearly stakes him in the glove of Minnegon (sp?) episode. Faith again - Angel S1 Ep 5x5 - Faith hands him his ass again and would've killed him if it weren't his show. Faith again - Fares slightly better as he is "Angelus" but still gets outsmarted (by Faith of all people) into biting into a drugged slayer. He suddenly pulls it together to beat Dana....yeah right... whereas Spike - Killed 2 slayers and nearly kills Buffy on their first encounter. And has just proven that he can beat Angel. He gets his arms chopped off by Dana... Anyone see something wrong here?

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:41 a.m. CST

    Angel's fighting skills

    by Calm_b4_the_Strm

    Angel DIDNT have a fight with Kendra . She just pushed him into a cell . The dumb bitch got defeated by Dru whos not even a fighter. Buffy defeated Angelus not Angel. Angel didnt know Faith was a slayer the first time they fought . The next time when he was pretending to be Angelus he threw her around like a rag doll . Angel wasnt fighting Faith in "5x5" cuz thats what she wanted , he was trying to reason with her and he kicked her ass as Angelus in S4 , the fact that she was drugged is irrelevant . Apart from that he lasted the longest against the Beast whos the strongest big bad ever shown on both shows and destroyed him as Angelus, not couting kicking Connor's , Darla AND Drusilla's respective asses. The only wrong thing is that Spike who has gotten his ass kicked by almost every character on BTVS and was handed his ass to him by Angel ( and Angelus ) everytime they fougth was suddenly the better fighter in Destiny ??? I call it "We have to satisfy the dumb fucks who've migrated from Buffy" writer's syndrome.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:42 a.m. CST

    True but...

    by Whedon

    In those Faith battles Angel wasn't trying to kill her and Spike wasn't trying to kill Dana so I think you can attribute a lot of this to both of them holding back.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:45 a.m. CST

    Dont forget

    by Frank_Serpico

    single handedly taking out the whole warehouse full of psycho warrior demons which Darla and Dru recruited in "Redefinition" . That scene was SO bad-ass even though we dont see it , the look on Darla and Dru's faces when they open the doors and see that he's killed every demon is priceless.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:49 a.m. CST

    My 2 cents

    by Asimov's Brain

    Personally, I think the fact that Buffy no longer trusts Angel and Co. is brilliant, AND convienent. It makes sense too...I mean, sure, Angel showed up in Sunnydale...for all of ten minutes. Then she finds out he's the head of a "supremely evil" corporation, taking orders from the senior partners (whatever the hell THEY are? Evil gods?) After all, Buffy was WAY too busy being a dingbat over the last few months of her series to keep tabs on Angel. Plus, from what i can tell, Angel is now too busy to notice that he's becoming Don Corleone. (except in his dreams, natch)

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:52 a.m. CST

    one more thing...

    by Asimov's Brain

    Getting to find out what the Scoobies and the new watchers are up to was fucking awesome. Sweet to hear good things. Thanks, Whedon. Dueling organizations, anyone?

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:55 a.m. CST

    ok, seriously this time

    by Asimov's Brain

    As far as this Slayer sharing memories of other slayers, its not such a stretch...I mean, come on. Buffy was constantly (and conviently) having prophetic dreams and being visited by spirits from the past. She and Faith share some kind of psychic bond as well. NOT hard to explain...and kind of scary.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 6:35 a.m. CST

    Slayer Memories

    by krc274

    If I recall correctly, the Slayer memories get passed from one slayer to the next, although it doesn't always work out right, as in the case of Buffy. I think Whedon used this plot point in his "Fray" comic book, where (SPOILER) Fray's twin brother ends up with the Slayer memories and Fray ends up with the Slayer strength, agility, etc...

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 6:41 a.m. CST


    by heymanniceshot

    Again I see this year as maybe the baby step for an eventual SPIKE series (I can hear the opening credits now...Marsters or a children's choir (ala Harry Potter) singing a spartan

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 7 a.m. CST

    Does Anyone Else Think Joss, Steven & Drew pussied out in the en

    by jackson healy

    I mean, it could have been, it was fifteen years ago, and Spike was way evil then. And it's possible he could have made a sojourn through Los Angeles. Maybe he was drawn to her for some reason. I mean, he has killed two Slayers. And maybe he sniffed out a budding Slayer in young Dana and wanted to torment her by first killing her family? Not that he'd realize why he'd singled her out, just that she seemed to be calling to him. All I'm saying is, it would have been way cool if the bad ass in Dana's memories had really been Spike. Still, kick ass ep. The asylum opening alone was worth the price of admission. Also, Andrew's cool new "I've got 20 Slayers watching my back, bitch" attitude is fresh, original angle, especially coming from him. Too bad he sucks fudgesickle.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 8:06 a.m. CST

    with all the in-your-face-refrences to slayers past...

    by JohnnyOats

    what i REALLY loved was the subtle allusion to Season Five's "The Body". Dana picks up the surgical saw and does indeed recognizes it, then goes on to behead the hospital worker in almost a mirror shot to what buffy does to the vamp that was after Dawn. now THAT was some pretty spiffy continuity. great episode. i'd say 4 and a half.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 8:35 a.m. CST

    enough with the memory thing

    by punto

    They even explained it on the same episode.. "to most potentials, the dreams are just dreams, but this one is fucking crazy, that's why she mixed everything up in her head" (I'm paraphrasing of course)

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 9:25 a.m. CST

    Nobody said Buffy doesn't trust Angel.

    by Chastain-86

    Andrew said "we don't trust you" in such a way that confirmed a collective trust of the Scoobs. However, he also said, "Mr. Giles and a few Sunnydale alum..." were looking for potentials. I get the impression that Giles is heading up this particular venture, and it makes perfect sense that Giles wouldn't trust Team Angel. Buffy may not have even entered the picture in this regard. It would also explain why she hasn't been informed about Spike's return. Giles may know it, but you can bet if Buffy's not the top dog, she doesn't. And as to the "why no call to Angel" if there's suspicion of evil-turning...well, these things have a way of being revealed on their own timetable. Between taking care of Dawn and training potentials, reconnecting with Angel is probably not high on the list of priorities. I just wonder what Faith's role in Giles' little venture is these days...

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 9:38 a.m. CST

    It wouldn't have worked if Spike was REALLY the tormentor.

    by rev_skarekroe

    Spike's got a pretty good memory. He would've immediately recognized the girl if he'd been torturing her as hobby for years, not to mention that he would've remembered the distillery basement. sk

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 9:51 a.m. CST

    It is Andrew, people...

    by jbnimble

    pulp_dusk has it right, I think. Andrew, who said, just to remind us all, that he and spike saved the world. (Oh yeah, Buffy helped some.) Come on. This guy's view of the world is pretty warped. I don't blame Angel and company for not risking it, but how the heck do we even know those were slayers? Hmm...? Because Andrew told us? Mr. Reliable himself? Heck, the only reason I believe Giles sent him in the first place (instead of him working on some new warped scheme of his own) is because no one else showed up from Giles. And the slayer memory thing, with Buffy back in season 5... She needed to know how Spike beat the slayers. The slayers he killed wouldn't necessarily know how he did it. She needed to get inside his head, not theirs.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 9:54 a.m. CST

    re: Slayer memories

    by Gislef_crow

    There's a big difference between having prophetic dreams or a mental connection with a still-living Slayer, and the type of memories Dana has here. When has Buffy ever displayed knowledge of a foreign language (other then Valley-speak :) )? If Dana's mind is scrambled, that means Buffy should be better at speaking Chinese, Rumanian, etc., then Dana was here. Anyone remember that happening...?

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 11:10 a.m. CST

    let's clear things up...

    by dwam0

    Dana was mentally impaired, that's why the memories came in jumbled and in the original languages and sytax of the past Slayers (notice how her voice changes when she is Nikki, the slayer that Spike killed and Wood's mom). Also, one of the theme's of the Buffy show was that Buffy was ALWAYS fighting her Slayerness. consiously and unconsiously, which might have stifled her memories of past slayers ( If I remember right, the first Slayer had to nearly kill all her friends in their dreams JUST to get Buffy's attention)//// Andrew is getting his marching orders from Giles and his messages to Angel & Gang will be filtered through Giles mistrust of Angel and Andrew's strange twist on storytelling. I thought the Giles' "best man" description of Andrew was a joke, not only suggesting how little Giles thinks of Team Angel to send Andrew but also because "best man" is also his "only man," ( we certainly didn't hear about any other Watchers from Andrew). Of course, Giles could have sent Xander, but Angel might have expected a double-cross more from Xander than an unknown like Andrew (which made the big reveal of all the Slayers just so delightful)//// I think the fun thing to do would be to figure out under what circumstance would a conflict between Team Angel and the Slayers arise again? Giles and Scoobs seem busy just trying to locate and train Slayers. Unless Team Angel becomes a threat to the world, there's no reason for a conflict. But please, let's speculate amongst all the mighty minds on this board.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Let me Explain why Dana had more memories.

    by DeadMuskrat

    Dana was in a catatonic state for the last six months. In that time she's been reliving all of the slayers memories. They started becoming a sort of multiple personalities. She probably saw more memories than any other slayer. That makes her a very valuable asset at this point to the new Watchers For those of you who read Fray, you would remember that the Memories were a major part of that story because The Slayer, Maleka, had a twin brother who received all the memories of the slayers while Maleka received only the strength and skill. You guys should pick up those books. It was a good story by Joss.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 11:42 a.m. CST

    One more thing

    by DeadMuskrat

    Did anybody find it strange that Angel showed no concern for either Faith after figuring out that Dana was a Slayer. He didn't know that Buffy made 100's of slayers. Which means, in his mind, Faith had died.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 11:48 a.m. CST

    A lot of people are forgetting....

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    That it was established in the first couple of Buffy seasons that Buffy didnt experience the visions of past Slayers as often or as vividly as other girls have in the past. She also didnt have the ability to instantly spot a vampire in the crows like tonights girls did. She did have prophetic dreams though and had an instictive feeling when something was wrong. Being Chosen effects all of the girls differently.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:01 p.m. CST

    Gather round and hear a tale ...

    by jgsugden

    Our young lady psycho slayer learned everything from dreams. Slayers have dreams. Unfortunately, due to her psycho state, she didn't process them as dreams and they had more of a permanent impact on her than on other slayers. This was explained (poorly) in the episode.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:06 p.m. CST

    Big Bad: Watchers?

    by jgsugden

    The watchers are not the Big bad this season. I think they'll play a small role this season as something to show how far away from good Angel's side is drifting. The BBEG is related to the LLG storyline. I do, however, think that the season six storyline (if there is one) will be bound to the Slayers. The involvement of the slayers in the current season (Wes' Robo-dad and this episode) seem more like JW is trying to establish some information for season 6 ... or for a spin-off.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:27 p.m. CST

    99 and counting

    by Doggus47

    That was an excellent episode! It's been well analyzed but I want to add my $.02: * Buffy wanted Dana because Dana is a slayer and she feels responsible for slayers. If Dana were possesed, like they originally thought Buffy wouldn't care. Buffy can be very protective, like she was with the potentials. Even if she did trust Angel, she would've wanted to be the one to look over Dana. "It's a slayer thing, you wouldn't understand" * Giles and the gang probably don't fully trust Andrew yet, they may not have filled him in on everything. * I hope the ending was a wakeup call for everyone that they're selling out. The old Gunn would've fired or set fire to Eve. Maybe that's why W&H uploaded all that legal info into his brain, to get him beyond his black & white view of the world. I wonder if the new Gunn would've stood there kicking the cell door until it opened like he did last year? * Wes looked pained but I hope he's moved on. In some ways, he's better than the watchers. He's not the same guy who joined the show a few years ago. I just watched the episode where Angel made him the job offer and he was kissing up so much- he offered to clean the individual coffee beans Angel spilled on the floor. * I don't think it's a Scooby Gang v. Team Angel thing because Lindsey wanted Spike & Angel to fight to the death over the cup, and I don't think the Scoobs would've taken things that far, that soon. Same with the coma. * This is an aside, but around halfway through the episode, the thought "I'm glad Connor isn't here" jumped into my head.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:44 p.m. CST

    One more thought: Big Bad

    by Doggus47

    Here's a stretch that popped into my head, and it's a kinda philosophical thing- maybe Angel & co. are the big bad? In other words, maybe the big bad this season is the corruption they're going through and the amoral choices and compromises they're making? But in the end, there's no battle but the decision to walk out the doors of W&H (preferably while the building is on fire). A free will type of thing. No big bad to punch, just something to decide. Just like they all made the individual decision to join, they all must make the individual decision to leave- it could be a finale like the season finale last year where they each had their own experience with W&H.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 12:53 p.m. CST

    Here's the REAL reason about the memories.

    by Stoney-321

    So it normally goes: slayer - death - new slayer. Get the power, get the training, get the dreams of the primitive and to be killed stuff. Now, Buffy took her power and her "being" if you will and through the "lesbian witch" and the (ahem) scythe (or axe as well all know it is) and sends her power through it to the potentials. So it's like everything in Buffy is now in all of them: memories of killings, past slayers (she had to study them, you know) and the rest. This is what helps my brain settle, so take what you will. ALso, forget about continuity from the movie. Where were SMG-Buffy's premenstral cramps everytime she was near a vamp?

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Angel: Real Discussion

    by dankato

    See that....Shelbygirl and Herc? Angel...prompts real discussion. The O.C...prompts discussion about who is cute and other 90210ish type stuff. Keep up the good discussion people!

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 1:34 p.m. CST

    Andrew, sloppy writing and who cares if he's gay?

    by Electric_Monk

    Tom Lenk on Andrew about the Internet debate on the character's most intriguing aspect, an ambiguous pansexuality. Speculation about Andrew's true desires amuses Lenk. "I only play what's on the page and the writers don't tell me who he really likes," the actor hedges. "I don't know, because last year everyone was convinced he had a thing for Warren and I read the Dawn thing and Xander and maybe he's obsessed with Anya or Buffy. He lives in his own world where he just sortta sees what he wants to see." "I don't know if the character himself is aware" Lenk theorizes. "He's so naive. He's such a grown kid. I don't know if he would know the difference between lusting after someone and wanting to be them." While GreatOne will continue to prattle on and on and on about gays in the Whedon universe, Damage was good. But it did have some sloppy writing (shocking, that I agree with him). The whole slayer vision thing was contrived. I don't know if this has anything to do with the aging franchise, as in we're sunning out of ideas, or just the problem with having Angel less serialized. When DS9 was on, Alexander Siddig had said that late in the series, after years of protraying Bashir as a genius, the writers suddenly explained it all by saying he was genetically enhanced. Surprised the hell out of the actor. But that's what happens when a show gets old. Still, it is sloppy to basically change the whole concept of that Buffy episode to fit this Angel episode. Then again, Star Trek has been doing that for the last two series. and reading all the posts, with everyone copming up with their own Monday Morning Quarterbacking on what the intent was, it just giving Whedon more reason to screw with what has come before. That being said, I wonder how Angel and his gang will get out of this moral pool they've tumbled into. I'm guessing next weeks episode will add to things to the deep end. Whedon has said he'll finish off this story line by the may season ender, so maybe a battle between Wolfram and Hart and the New Watchers Council is coming (though, I'm more convinced Lindsey is more involved than we know). And final thoughts on Andrew: If he's gay, fine. It seems logical to assume that he is, but like said on his website "He lives in his own world where he just sortta sees what he wants to see." But it's not all black and white, as much as GreatOne thinks it should be. Andrew is an entertaining creation, and a walking sterotype for geeks and freaks (and for nelly gays) but he is people all of have known. I think many who make fun of him, are doing it because his charatcer hits close to home. There are many who post here who seem to know way too much than they should about Buffy and Angel (and Joss Whedon). You're quickly becoming the Next Generation of Star Trek Fans. In the end, I thought the show was fun. Is some of the contiunity errors going to stop me from watching, no. Is that settling for an inferior product? It's not Star Trek: Enterprise, for goodness sakes. Thank You for that.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:14 p.m. CST

    I'm starting to think that the senoir partners are using team an

    by Big Bad Clone

    Evil v. Evil with good in between would be pretty cool. It would have been a good reason for W&H to give the reins over to the fang gang. Maybe Gunn and/or Lorne stay with law firm at the end of the season when Angel gets pissed and quits after learning that he was being used like a chess piece. Maybe there will be just another apocolyse.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:40 p.m. CST

    Star Trek

    by dankato

    I thought it was known that we are as bad as Star Trek fans. :)

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:41 p.m. CST

    What consistency problems?

    by fastpilot

    I can't think of one actual inconsistency with either Slayer lore of previous episodes in this episode. Maybe I'm nitpicking. And I am a fanboy. From everything I've seen and read, every Slayer gets an individualized package of Slayerness. Some are stronger than others, some heal faster, some see in the dark. I've heard a rumor one of the new Slayers has to whack off with a rubber mallet 'cause her flesh is so resistant to force. Hah, recover from that mental image! Whingers. . . . . Sorry about that, but with the other guy talking about how elevated AtS and BtVS were compared to OC, I had to bring it down a notch. ;^)

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Previous memories

    by Craigk

    The idea of a slayer experiencing previous memories/nightmares goes back to ep 1 in year 1 of Buffy. We see Buffy experience nightmares and subsequently during the first meeting with Giles he ays that she is experioencing the nightmares. She is, in fact, The Slayer, much to Buffy's chagrin.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 3:10 p.m. CST


    by greisj34

    It is likely that there is some sort of slayer continuum of memories that all of them have access to. It often happens in their dreams. I don't think the other newly activated slayers have all the memories that dana has because of her condition. Slayers brains would not be able to handle that much information from all past slayers so their minds only give them pieces of memory. It is probably also adds to their slayer instincts. The reason dana had all the memories of the slayers activated when the slayers spell did its work is because of her insanity. Her brain was probably not able to handle or was expecting the memories and the all came flooding in making her even more disturbed. I don't think her mental problems can be fixed by any sort of conventional treatment. Willow probably have to alter her memories or deactivate her powers. Before the big destiny change, it is likely to assume that whoever or whatever decided which potential would be activated as the next slayer, they never would chosen her. The whole Buffy not trusting Angel thing is mostly just because of the way Andrew said it. The watcher's council new and old has probably always known about W&H, and it doesn't surprise me that Giles would know about the change over. Buffy and the others is probably concerned and andrew likely misinterpreted their feelings (like someone mentioned earlier, it goes with his character). I really don't like andrew, he has not changed at all since the end of buffy. I hated how the way he thought he had moral superiority over angel. Andrew killed his best friend for godsakes. I know he came to terms with that but he still hasn't redeemed himself. When the big Buffy/Angel movie is made (I hope to god it will) all the little plot nuances will be worked out ie the good use for the key, how buffy's resurection effected the slayer line, why the first was able to exploit this, the shanshu propecy, wiilow's transformation (the description in the script of chosen that said that the slayer spell changed her) and others that I'm sure I missed. Can't wait for Cordelia's return.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 3:16 p.m. CST

    W&H..future of Angel...

    by Speedstream

    Yeah...i'll have to agree that unless Whedon or the writers do some HEAVY clarification on THEIR part and not just are assumptions...that there appears to be some errors inlast nites episode that contradict what we have seen in the past. I guess the way i am gunna look at that all the Slayers are all lnked in some way...whether it be dreams or past memories...or phrophecy...they all have something. Maybe each one is gifted differently? Or maybe they only tap into the parts they need at that given moment...its not like Buffy could just have visions like Dru did whenever she looked at the stars. It was random. Who knows...i am sure it will eventually fit into the normal rate of things. I mean i cannot think of to many times where they have totally raped the story line and COMPLETLY changed the original order of things. Again...Im sure down the road it will be fixed or further explained.*******As for the New Watchers vs. Team Angel...not gunna happen. Because they would have to get all the charectors to be able to return and come on Angel. Now granted...Joss has a lot of suprises comming...but I don't think he'd be able to pull off getting Buffy, Willow, Xander to all show. SMG said its to soon...we are already getiing Willow later on this season...and there is always that possibility that Kennedy will be there as well...and who knows about what Nick B. is really up to. I don't know about Tony Head either...and we have already had Andrew. And...if they tried to launch an attack on Team Angel and W&H..without at leasta few of those title would be both lame and incredibly gay...more so than Andrew appeared last nite(though i really appriciated his appearance). I honestly think that the Watchers MAY be involved at the end...but i do not believe it will be in a huge battle with Team Angel...pitting the two against eachother. I personally...think and hope...that it has to do with Lindsey...and the inevidable destruction of the LA branch of Wolfram & Hart. I hope Team Angel takes the place down in a blaze of Glory (HAHAHA pun intended). Not that any of them should die...but more so they dispense with W & H...and possibly go back to the Hotel. At least personally...i don't see W&H making it much past the the end of the 5th season here. I also cannot wait to see what Lindsey's plans are for this'll be interesting to see!*******Lastly...if they kill Cordy...I'd be pissed. I now my posts yesterday were a little off...i was falling asleep as i was typing them...I dont even think i completed some sentances in any case! Killing Cordy would be one of the WORST mistakes ever! Especially if we aren't ever gunna see Buffy again. As much asd my ULTIMATE preferance would be Angel and Buffy...I would LOVE to see Angel and Cordy and up together...and have Spike and Buffy be as together as they could be. Angel/Cordy is SO CLOSE to 2nd that i could almost have it go either way and still be okay with it. I guess we'll see next week though...JUST KEEP IN MIND...CC said in an interview that they left the door open for her to come back at Its talked about between paragraph's 7-12. Right away in the beginning she is asked point hope they do not kill her!!*******I'm really enjoying ANGEL this season...and hope it is not its last...later days

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 3:37 p.m. CST

    Pulp Dusk

    by dankato

    It's great to see someone who is also very opinionated about the show but please leave the personal attacks at the door. That being said... I will leave off with saying that prophetic dreams are quite different than actual memories. This has been covered well by various posts here so we'll just have to agree to disagree as to whether this was a contrived plot device or not. As for the fighting skills part. Calmb4theStorm: I did neglect to mention that it was "Angelus" that she was fighting at the end of Season 2, but this would make the result even worse since "Angelus" would not have held anything back in a fight. Also, Kendra didn't sneak up on Angel and push him into a cage. Angel did have a chance to fight back...he was just beaten. Kendra being beaten so easily by Dru just highlights Angel's really sorry record against slayers. Faith has time and again proven that she would beat Angel in a fight. The fact is, Faith was actually holding something back in her fight against Angelus. She didn't get beaten since we see that she had planned for Angelus to bite her as the point was to capture Angelus, not kill him. Just remember, even after Angelus killed the Beast he had a perfect chance to kill Faith since she was beaten to a bloody pulp and he still couldn't pull it off! As far as we know, Angel has never killed a slayer. Spike has killed 2. He should not have gone down so easily here. As for Buffy turning against Angel, I prefaced that thought with "Unless Andrew is lying." I took into account the possiblity that Andrew may be stretching the truth. If he is lying, then it would be an example of brilliant, subtle writing. However, if we find out that that he is telling the truth then we need an explanation as to why Buffy suddenly turned on a dime like this. Buffy isn't the type of person to do this (at least if she has dated the person involved). Surely, Spike in Season 6 & 7 has done worse things to Buffy and she didn't turn her back on him. So why would she do this to Angel? Hopefully, this episode was meant to provoke these types of discussions and not just contrived for a spin off or to introduce a new slayer.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 4:01 p.m. CST

    The reason Angelues has never killed a slayer is because...

    by Big Bad Clone

    He's just a sick fuck that so loooves being evil that he rather toy with them, torture them, and kill their friends and family. As Angel, he couldn't beat Faith or Dana because he knows he has to hold back. Spike went in just for the kill because that was so thrilling. Spike didn't hold back against Buffy but simply got he's ass kicked. In the brief Faith v. Spike fight in Season 7, Faith was giving Spike a run for his money. And, finally, Dru was crazy ass strong when she offed Kendra. But really vamps and slayers have that sort of "any given Sunday" type of match ups. It could go either way at anytime.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 4:16 p.m. CST

    Enterprise ...

    by jgsugden

    They're moving Enterprise to show at 9PM Wednesdays ... against Angel. They're giving it a horrible lead-in (The Mullets). So my question is: Will Angel suffer from facing off against Enterprise? If so, how much? Enough to diminish the chances of a season 6?

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 5:09 p.m. CST

    Vampire's pulmonary system? And digestive?

    by spikezgirl

    OK, I've never thought about this before and I'm a fan of anything with fangs, but what exactly is still working, systemwise, in an otherwise dead vampire? Obviously, no heartbeat, so no pumping blood in system -- yet our heroes can still bleed! Our boy Spikey didn't bleed out from his cut arms, as a live fella would, but past instances have shown that vampires can bleed from being shot, cut, and all the mayhem that Whedon & co. throw their way. Yeah, it's never been buckets of blood, but it has been there, right? Also, didn't Dracula on his one appearance on Buffy cut his own wrists to have Buffy drink from them? So how does blood get around in the vampire without a working pulmonary system? Wouldn't it pool up and lose its, er, freshness? Suppose it just goes into the vamp's digestive system. I guess that still works, eh, since Spike was always eating those onion blossoms and drinking beer. Apologies if this has been discussed before, but seeing Spike with arms cut off had me thinking!! Can't believe they actually did that! And oh, yeah, the beginning was a total homage to T2. Wonder if Whedon & James Cameron have met! They can chat endlessly about their love of strong, ass-kicking women. And Andrew seriously cracked me up this ep!

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 5:54 p.m. CST

    Angelus v. Spike

    by Doggus47

    I think the main difference between the two, back when they were double-dating w/ Darla & Drusilla, was that Angelus wanted control & power while Spike preferred uncertainty. He was the type who wouldn't enter a fight unless he knew he would win. Spike, on the other hand, wanted to fight slayers because he could lose- he was a risk seeker. As for Dana's insanity, everyone's forgetting that she was injected with various strange drugs when she was being tortured. That's another excuse for her vivid memories. Also, and this is completely different. I am wondering if the gang today would have fought against Jasmine's control? It's possible that's the motivation behind granting them the LA office of W&H... corrupt them enough so they would've made the trade-off of happiness instead of free-will. Not that W&H liked Jasmine, but maybe they saw that as a symptom of righteousness that they need to get rid of. It's also ironic that Connor chose the happiness & ignorance Jasmine brought and Angel, in the end granted it to Connor but no one else.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 6:14 p.m. CST


    by Speedstream

    Personally...the 1st episode fpof ANGEL i ever saw had Connor in it, and at 1st...i loved his charector. But as the season went on, and i went back and got seasons 1-3...and saw what Connor used to be...and what gthe show was b4 him...I started to HIGHLY dislike the charctor of Connor. He was a whiny, self-centered, easily manipulated little punk that was to caught up in his own anger even after he knew the truth the ENTIRE let that anger go...thus almost killing the entire cast. I know Joss has plans to bring him back at some point...and I am sure it will be cool...but it needs to be nothing but a guest appearance...Connor can only be handled in small doses. But if I am wrong on the Connor thing...someone please correct me...I'd like to hear opposing perspecitves on him. later days

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 7:16 p.m. CST

    1 smallville thing

    by CA$H

    Did anyone notice the e-mail adress of the Kents on Smallville? Is it just me or is CMH320 also the license plate number of the General Lee?

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 8:14 p.m. CST

    General Lee

    by thegraduate

    Yep... CNH 320... good call. Oh, and I loved this episode of Angel. Awesome. That is all.

  • Jan. 29, 2004, 9:16 p.m. CST

    HEY HERC! Pontentially HUMUNGOUS Trek news. Is it bye-bye for Be

    by Rufus_T_Firefly

    Linky linky:

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 12:19 a.m. CST

    Wouldn't be upset if Conner didn't return

    by Whedon

    just an unlikable character and VK didn't exactly steal any scenes to warrent his continued existence. In the end he was ultimately a tool that allowed Angel to add one more thing to his already troubled mind and so in that repect I guess Conner was a good thing, just as long as we don't have to see anymore of him. His story is told and it does more for Angel as a character for Conner to stay "happy" and out of his life. Kind of diminishes his sacrifice to bring him back, my opinon of course.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 12:21 a.m. CST

    more on Connor...

    by Speedstream

    What I really would appriciate if we got some closure as to how Connor came about now that we know the texts are all fake..."the father will kill the son" and stuff like that...that Angel hinted at Wes early on this season. I wonder if some of that will get cleared up next week w/ the return of Cordy? I hope so? I wonder if she will remember Connor? She wont if the nasty rumor I hear about her dying and it all being a dream is true. I hope that give us SOME sort of closure though...not only w/ Connor...but ESPECIALLY w/ Cordy. later days

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 12:56 a.m. CST

    Useless Characters

    by dankato

    As was said before, Connor was a useless character played by an actor who didn't steal any scenes. My closure came when he was taken off the show. I feel the same way about Fred and Lorne. Gunn would be on my chopping block as well if they weren't making such a big deal about the W&H brain upload. The best characters (in terms of storylines as well as the actor's ability) are Spike and Wesley. Angel is a well written character played by a so-so actor. In season 4, DB was brilliant for maybe the first 2 weeks of him being Angelus. Afterwards, it just became him trying to sound diabolical with every line. It got annoying. You know who I would love to see more of? That guy that Lindsey and Eve hired to send Spike and Angel on the wild goose chase. "You didn't read the prophecy! You read a translation of the prophecy! You might as well have read a child's book report on the subject!" Those lines were delivered so well. Just the right amount of English stuffiness. Truly great stuff.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 1:14 a.m. CST

    The writing was not sloppy, first...

    by Jinxo

    Okay, first off, the crazy slayer having more access to past slayer memories does make perfect sense. Think of it this way. Every slayer lives in a little room in their head. The walls of that room are built on their sense of themselves as an individual. The better their sense of themselves, the thicker those walls. Now outside that room are other rooms in which live the memories of the other slayers. If, say, Buffy wants to go out and look into those other memories she could if she wanted. Buffy being a pretty strong individual I would think would have pretty strong walls up and would not liekly be interested in inviting extra "other" slayer memories into who she is. Crazy slayer? No walls. No sense of self. Its like a riot of others running around in her head. How can she speak Chinese when she's crazy and Buffy can't. First, because Buffy doesn't want to share headspace with Chinese-slayer gal. And crazy slayer can't speak Chinese. She likely wasn't the personality speaking in Chinese or it was her but she didn't even realize she was speaking Chinese. So, yeah, Buffy could speak Chinese if she wanted to risk losing her mind. Bad trade in my opinion.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 1:35 a.m. CST

    The Writing was not sloppy, two...

    by Jinxo

    As to anyone incredulous that Buffy would not trust Angel, that those words were Andrews and not Buffy's? You're high. Do you remember who Buffy is? If it was just Buffy and just Angel, it would all be good. But Buffy is now basically the head of a giant corporate organization herself. Buffy. The girl who went uber-over protective just over her sister. Who was so intense in leading a squad of potentials that her own people kicked her out at one point. Now she's the head of an organization trying to find, control, train and protect thousands of slayers. And the last group who did that, the watchers, went all creepy and corrupt. And they only had to look after one (or two) slayers. So, we have a controlling type who isn't 100% secure in her abilities trying to do an impossible job others have failed at, where the potential for screwing up with bad consequences for other is large. Her boyfriend, who she was willing to stab in the chest and send to hell to save the world, is now working with a pandimensional evil organization. Her boyfriend who turns evil sometimes. Who actually went frighteningly violent while he was "good" once. And he's running it with who? Wesley, an ex-watcher who was worthless most of the time Buffy knew him. Gunn, a gang banger who let the demon law firm alter his mind. Fred, a girl who was trapped in a demon dimension where humans are cattle and where she was driven to the brink of madness. Lorne, one of the demons from that same dimension. None of that is building my confidence. Heck, even knowing they all mean well doesn't mean they aren't just being used and manipulated. The fact is Buffy doesn't have to hate them and view them all as enemies, she just can't view them as allies. They are too much of a wild card. Her first job is to look out for her own people and that's no small feat. She can't afford to just take it on faith that Angel and company are trustworthy. She certainly can't let one of her girls be locked up by Evil Inc. And sending Andrew in as their man was brilliant. They all did what Buffy wanted: they underestimated him and wrote him off. And I think Andrew did a great job at the end. He stood up to Joe-powerful Angel and all his flunkies and told them calmly to take a big leap. That was very unlike his previous salf. If that was Andrew just talking, he wouldn't have been half as collected or self assured. Yes he had an army of Slayers backing him up, but with Andrew that wouldn't have been the issue. Andrew was the point man. He didn't go all flustery and nervous going, "Oh yeah well... uh... Buffy said so." He was in utter control and not goofing around. He said what hwe was sent to say. He kicked their asses for the Scoobies most righteously.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 2:16 a.m. CST

    This season has pretty much sucked

    by mpfanatic

    I dont like the whole wolfram story i dont like Gunn as a lawyer and they all act SO FREAKIN different now its kinda annoying, I like when they had a long arch storyline over the season

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 5:10 a.m. CST

    Lets just ignore the fact ..

    by Frank_Serpico

    that Angel kicked the living fuck out of Spike when he came over to L.A. the first time or the fact apart from the slayers Spike has gotten his ass kicked by almost every character on Buffy . Like the guy said its "Lets please the jerk-off Spike fans by suddenly making him stronger than Angel for no reason" time .

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 8:05 a.m. CST

    Andrew, again...

    by jbnimble

    My point about Andrew is not that he was certainly lying. It is possible everything he said was true. My point is that he is a known liar and exaggerator. Yet, Team Angel just assumed he was telling the truth. And we're all buying it (and then complaining about it). Why? Because Team Angel worries they've sold out. They worry that their former friends won't trust them anymore. Of course it's possible Buffy doesn't trust them, but how do we know until someone calls her? Instead, we all just accept it because we're worried she might be right. Some people have suggested LLG is part of the New Watcher's plot against Team Angel. But think about this, what if Andrew is part of LLG's plot? He and Eve know their doubts. What if they plant some worries in the right places. Even if Andrew is on the up and up, what if his actions and comments are part of LLG's plans? Until the two groups talk, rumor and innuendo are going to rule the day from across a continent and an ocean.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 11:32 a.m. CST

    Wolfram & Hart


    Has Wolfram and Hart ever been mentioned in Buffy or any of the Scoobies presence on screen? I remember thinking on the Buffy Finale that Angel never mentions them by name. This episode seemed to be the first time they ever acknowledged Buffy's awareness of W&H. Also on the dreams of slayers issue---didn't they say that most potentials just wake up and think its nonsense? So its really just the crazy slayer that believed the visions were real.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 2:12 p.m. CST

    A question & Connor

    by Doggus47

    Why does everyone call Lindsey the Lindsey-Looking-Guy? Isn't he Lindsey? Am I missing something? Also, Connor's character was completely unlikable- how do you like the guy who sent Angel to the bottom of the ocean in the cage and then was willing to kill Wes & Gunn to preserve Jasmine's power? Sure he's a troubled kid with massive Oedipal issues but he never ever gained acceptance. I hope they explain eventually why that time-shifting demon had so much against Angel & Connor. I agree with whoever it was that said Wes & Spike were the best. It's been great watching Wes grow a pair and become his own guy- it's so funny watching him stumble around on the early episodes.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Doggus47 on LLG

    by jbnimble

    I think it's just a cynicism about being yanked around. Of course it's Lindsay, unless it turns out that it's just someone who looks like him or using his body, or something. :) No sense in jumping to conclusions and being wrong. I mean, none of just jump to conclusions about what's happening. ;)

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 4:39 p.m. CST



    He grew on me by the end of Season 4. I usually hate angsty teen characters but I thought the actor and writing did a decent job. I felt that he was pretty much what Anakin Skywalker SHOULD have been in the Starwars Prequels.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 5:06 p.m. CST


    by Doggus47

    I liked VK, and that's a good point about Anakin. I just really disliked the character for what he did- some of it was inexcusable. I know he's not like other teens, but he should know better than to send Angel to the bottom of the ocean.

  • Jan. 30, 2004, 7:34 p.m. CST

    This episode was SOOO GOOD

    by Aztec

    OK, is it just me? Or does anyone else LOVE Angel this year? I love Joss, I love Angel and this episode was one of Angel's best of all time if I do say so myself. I loved the character of Dana, the only thing I didn't like about this episode is that Dana isn't going to be a regular cast member and I really thought she was gonna stick around while Wolfie and Hart put her through therapy. As for anyone dying. I'm almost positive it's going to be Cordy, I read that she wants to move on just wanted to tie up loose ends. I think Fred is cute and I love all the characters, but Lorne (my favorite ambiguously gay demon)isn't really necessary. I'd even prefer Gwen Stacy in his place. Cordy looks so hot for the 100th episode, she was lookin kinda fat (too fat for pregnant even) and wearing some ugly ass clothes the last couple seasons. Glad to see Charisma looking as hot as she should and with a new baby too! Go her. So that's my theory, Cordy dies, Fred stays, Lorne should go (sorry, GLAAD) but when are we ever gonna meet these Senior Partners? Also, I would love to see another Witch on angel. No one in angel's scooby gang really has any cool powers like Willow did. Perhaps Angels new wolf chic will join the group? Who loves. I woulda rated this episode 4 stars though. It was killer!

  • Jan. 31, 2004, 4:55 a.m. CST

    Joss seems to like to keep his conspiracies separate...

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    Throughout the various arcs that have played out on "Buffy" and "Angel", most things weren't all tied together. The Jasmine arc may have been one of the few exceptions, and that was kind of lame. Thus, I don't think the Scoobs are in league with Lindsey. However, did Lindsey tell Spike the truth about how he recovered Spike? There are still lots of questions regarding that -- how did Lindsey know anything about Spike and where to find him? As for whether it's really Lindsey, well, I don't recall anybody having called him "Lindsey" since he's re-appeared.

  • Jan. 31, 2004, 1:11 p.m. CST


    by arby64

    The time shifting demon had it in for Conner because Conner was the one prophesized to kill him. (He reveals that in the last episode he was in, right before he was put in the jar he was put in.) I would hope that if they bring Conner back, he will kill this guy cause I hate when real prophecys aren't fulfilled. Also, I don't think Conner was so bad. He really grew up in some strange circumstances and couldn't really overcome them. If he did come back I think he would be quite different, having experienced living a norma life for a while.

  • Feb. 1, 2004, 1:28 a.m. CST

    re: arby64...and Connor

    by Speedstream

    I agree...if that stupid demon shows up again...kill his @$$! Fulfill that phrophecy and lets get his head on a platter...though i do find it unlikely he will show up...being bottled and all. If Connor shows up...which he EVENTUALLY wont have much to do w/ the time shifting demon...he will prolly be referenced to, due to his major role in having things on ANGEL the way they are right now...but no direct contact with him. As for a Connor reappearence in general...i hope he remains ignoranlty happy...or preferably...dead. Yes...its harsh...but i look at Connor as a lose end that needs to be tied up. I would be happy with him being ignorant and out of the picture...but i think if he would put things back into perspective with him...maybe returning him to the Champion he once was and i am sure will be again (Im not sayin he's not a Champion...i am sayin the more direct Champion root is season 1 and the beginning of 2). Either sure we are gunna get some resolution for the Connor/memories story line eventually. Lastly...screw the superbowl...i want ANGEL 100!!! later days

  • Feb. 1, 2004, 1:30 a.m. CST

    re: arby68...and Connor

    by Speedstream

    I agree...if that stupid demon shows up again...kill his @$$! Fulfill that phrophecy and lets get his head on a platter...though i do find it unlikely he will show up...being bottled and all. If Connor shows up...which he EVENTUALLY wont have much to do w/ the time shifting demon...he will prolly be referenced to, due to his major role in having things on ANGEL the way they are right now...but no direct contact with him. As for a Connor reappearence in general...i hope he remains ignoranlty happy...or preferably...dead. Yes...its harsh...but i look at Connor as a lose end that needs to be tied up. I would be happy with him being ignorant and out of the picture...but i think if he would put things back into perspective with him...maybe returning him to the Champion he once was and i am sure will be again (Im not sayin he's not a Champion...i am sayin the more direct Champion root is season 1 and the beginning of 2). Either sure we are gunna get some resolution for the Connor/memories story line eventually. Lastly...screw the superbowl...i want ANGEL 100!!! later days

  • Feb. 1, 2004, 3:21 a.m. CST

    You heard it here first...

    by Virtual Satyr

    Eve is a robot.

  • Feb. 3, 2004, 12:41 a.m. CST

    its not Fred who is gunna die!!!...

    by Speedstream

    Its EVE!!! Someone is replacing her as the liason to the Senior parteners...some guy in his late 30's early 40's...a lot like Wesley supposedly started off with in both BUFFY and ANGEL. So hopefully they are gunna keep Fred. I personally like her and hope se sticks around...but much as she may be hot...i wouldn't mind seeing gone...she annoys me a bit to much. Also...3 days and counting to 100! I am WAY excited! later days

  • Feb. 3, 2004, 12:43 a.m. CST

    re: arby64...and Connor

    by Speedstream

    I agree...if that stupid demon shows up again...kill his @$$! Fulfill that phrophecy and lets get his head on a platter...though i do find it unlikely he will show up...being bottled and all. If Connor shows up...which he EVENTUALLY wont have much to do w/ the time shifting demon...he will prolly be referenced to, due to his major role in having things on ANGEL the way they are right now...but no direct contact with him. As for a Connor reappearence in general...i hope he remains ignoranlty happy...or preferably...dead. Yes...its harsh...but i look at Connor as a lose end that needs to be tied up. I would be happy with him being ignorant and out of the picture...but i think if he would put things back into perspective with him...maybe returning him to the Champion he once was and i am sure will be again (Im not sayin he's not a Champion...i am sayin the more direct Champion root is season 1 and the beginning of 2). Either sure we are gunna get some resolution for the Connor/memories story line eventually. Lastly...screw the superbowl...i want ANGEL 100!!! later days

  • Feb. 3, 2004, 4:31 p.m. CST

    Man you guys don't get it...

    by Quiddity

    A writer needs to acheive and end, correct? For example, in order to further the plot, Spike needs to beat Angel. Well that's what's going to happen! It's that simple. Don't read anything into "They did it to please spike fans" or any true idiocy like that. The writers write to acheive the continuation of the plot. Spike won, Angel lost, and guess what will happen next time: WHATEVER THE WRITERS NEED TO HAPPEN in order to further the plot toward its end. No big mystery.

  • March 18, 2004, 7:35 a.m. CST

    Batman Trailer....

    by foonacha

    You Git! Lolol ...Hurt myself laughing at the ancient cheesiness of messers Ward & West. Great cast of adversaries though.