Cool News
Euro-AICN: Northfork; My Life Without Me; Virgin Of Liverpool; ROTK; Pan; and interviews with Elijah Wood & Minghella
Father Geek here with a Christmas present from our guys across the Atlantic at Euro-AICN... Coolness abounds sooooo dig in... and Enjoy the holidays... see you on the other side...
Hi folks. Merry Christmas to all of you. Robert here...This week, the column is 99% provided by our great James Bartlett and his reviews, but we have also a few interesting items by Julez.
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Hi,
Some fantastic Lord of the Rings: The Return of The King goodies up on icLiverpool's site including great pics from the UK premiere and World premiere of Return of the King, a cool interview with Elijah Wood and a great review.
Great interview with Liverpool-born actor and baddie extraordinaire Jason Isaacs up in icLiverpool's site talking about life, career, Hollywood and Peter Pan.
Also nice interview with Anthony Minghella talking about Nicole Kidman and Cold Mountain.
Regards,
Julez
Reviews by James Bartlett
The Virgin Of Liverpool
Director: Lee Donaldson;
Starring: Ricky Tomlinson, Imelda Staunton, Johnny Vegas, Katie Ellen Jones;
91 mins
Screened as part of the Foyle Film Festival in Derry/Londonderry in Northern
Ireland, The Virgin Of Liverpool centres around the chaotic Conlon family,
with dad Frank (Ricky Tomlinson) and Sylvia (Imelda Staunton) at the head.
When the local church undergoes repairs, the Virgin Mary statue is thrown on
the dump - much to the consternation of their daughter Joanne (Katie Ellen
Jones) who promptly brings the statue home. Which is when things start to go
a bit wrong: Frank finally gets the kick from his job, Sylvia starts a new
job and her boss - an old flame - starts sniffing around - and it goes on
from there. The statue, despite being handed round and taken out of the
house, always ends back up in the front room.
There was lots of potential here for comedy; Tomlinson is always good value
and the concept promised much, but sadly it soon sunk into a messy middle
ground, weighed down by its too many undeveloped sub-plots, none of which
were given enough time to breathe and never convinced; Joanne falling in
love, Sylvia's supposed two-timing that never even comes close to happening
- all a clear case of trying to do too much.
It never really involves on enough levels beyond giving us a few laughs and
some cracking sequences and I'm not sure if this will see the light of day
on the silver screen.
Northfork
Director: Michael Polish;
Starring: Nick Nolte, James Woods, Darryl Hannah, Duel Farnes, Mark Polish;
103 mins,
Certificate: PG,
Released: 23rd January 2004
Screened during the Foyle Film Festival in Derry/Londonderry in Northern
Ireland, this film is set in 1955 and is about a town in remote Montana that
is about to die - all the inhabitants have been moved out in advance of a
new dam and the flooding of their homes. As Father Harlan (Nick Nolte) would
say: the end is nigh.
But the good Father does not get the chance to leave, as a couple on their
way to a new beginning return the child they adopted; Irwin (Duel Farnes) is
just too ill and sickly to be part of their future. In another place, a
group of angelic-like men in black are given their assignments - to remove
the last stubborn inhabitants of Northfork.
Among these agents are father and son Walter and Willis O'Brien (James Woods
and Mark Polish), who are also torn about leaving as Northfork is their home
town and their wife/mother is the last body left in the cemetery - all the
others have been dug up and transferred - and they disagree about whether
she should be moved.
As Irwin falls in and out of a fever, we see some of the last inhabitants; a
man who has built his house into an ark and even has two wives, a gun-toting
man staying on his porch and a strange bunch of what seem to be marionette
angels. This odd bunch - including Flower Hercules (Darryl Hannah) - seem to
be mythical spirits of the plains; spirits that are going to be washed away
without finding their missing friend.
Irwin meets Flower and a discovery is made; the scars on his back and the
marks on his head suggest that Irwin was an angel himself; perhaps now he
can finally be given to a loving family - but are they truly convinced?
Written by brothers Mark and Michael Polish and made for under $2million
dollars, Northfork is without doubt an original and different piece of work
- it looks amazing, is written so well that it never feels forced or
contrived and is ultimately a deep and thoughtful story.
That said, it's overlong, ponderous and very complex and concentrated; you
can see why the actors wanted to be involved (Woods helped produce), but you
do walk a thin line between pretentious confusion and some real imaginative
and interesting work.
It divided the critics and I have to say that it's in no way a crowd-pleaser
- it's more Lynch than Lynch - but as an original project in a year of
bluff, remakes and sequels, something as original as this should be
applauded and persevered with if you can stand it.
My Life Without Me
Director: Isabel Coixet;
Starring: Sarah Polley, Scott Speedman, Mark Ruffalo, Deborah Harry;
106 mins,
Certificate: 15
Ann (Sarah Polley) and her husband Don (Scott Speedman) are childhood
sweethearts who are married with two daughters and living in a mobile home
in the garden of Ann's mother (Deborah Harry).
Life could be better for them, but the kids are healthy, they're still madly
in love and when Don gets a new job that should last over a year, things
seem on the up. But when Ann visits hospital to have her stomach pains
examined, she gets some news that she cannot believe: she has terminal
cancer and only a few months to live.
She vows to tell no-one of her plight - figuring the biggest present she can
give her friends and family is not to see her fade away in a hospital bed -
and makes a list of things she wants to do before she dies; sleep with
another man, record Birthday messages for her daughters for the next few
years and find Don a new wife.
A simple concept, My Life Without Me is a moving and engaging experience;
steering a successful course between believability and mawkishness without
slipping up is a tough one and it's down to two things: primarily the
beautiful writing and intimate direction of Coixet. It's no wonder that
Pedro Almodovar, another master of writing female-based emotional stories to
great effect, was on board as a producer.
Secondly, the performances are exceptional - in particular, Sarah Polley as
Ann. Her performance - both as a loving mother and when she is thinking
about her imminent death - really grabs hold of you. As all her friends and
family use her as their sounding board and confidante, the fact that only
the audience knows her fate makes the story far more compelling - as does
the careful use of voiceover.
You could say it finishes rather abruptly and too perfectly, but aside from
that, it has rightfully been winning rave reviews. This is one worth
catching - but you may need some tissues when you go!
James Bartlett
That's all for today
See you next week
Robert Bernocchi
The Italian Site
The Italian Site
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+ Expand All
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ROTK rules your ass
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But there is no way that I would have fully understood it if I hadn't seen the Polish brothers discussing what it was about and how the structure worked when I saw it at the London Film Festival. Complex but rewarding.
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cheers.
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I'll let you off though 'cause personally I love David Lynch's Dune, and I would never have read the book without it.
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Elijah Wood as Tiny Tim! "God Bless us, everyone!"
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Dec 25, 2003 11:14:51 AM CST
OMG You have to check out this link.... you'll die laughing.,,,
by lordweymont
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news03/031222d.php
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So, I cheated on my self imposed rule not to see RotK again until I'd finished a paper. After 10 hours of trying to pull recalcitrant sentences out of my apparently permanently dulled mind (w/o even pipe-weed to blame), I gave in and went to a matinee today. Who knew that 3pm on a Monday would still see the theater about 1/4 full? And no one left, and no one laughed at the wrong spots, and no one got up to leave early, and no one snickered at the multiple endings. Only one cell phone went off that I noticed, and I DISTINCTLY heard sniffling in the audience (and one "He is soooo good looking" for dear Leggy). ---- Anyway, the results of seeing it x2? The objections I had regarding it being rushed are still there. The gaping holes left by missing character development, time and events are more glaring now that I know what's coming. The editing is taut, but there's just too much of a leap sometimes. Especially when they use fades elsewhere to delineate extended periods of time passing. Off the top of my head: The instantaneous disappearance of the last charge of the Gondorian forces and the apparantly miraculous covering of the entire field with enemy siege weaponry. The off screen orcifying of Frodo and Sam, and then the off screen de-orcifying and Frodo has a shirt and suspenders again. Gandalf looking exhausted in the pyre scene with Denethor. No explanation for how Denethor knows what he does. The weird cut from Arwen looking at Narsil to her speaking with Elrond. Merry suddenly under an orc. All the missing Pelennor fields moments, including a rally before the ships roll in. All the missing Eowyn/Faramir bits. The MASSIVE GAPING WOUND that is the missing MoS. *pant pant* OK, now that that's out of my system. It's still beautiful. I still mind some of the changes (that aren't explained by cuts). I like Eowyn getting to speak with Theoden, although something seems to be missing from the beginning of the film (perhaps her reminding him of why he needs to go to Gondor's aid). He references that she's helped 'save' him but it isn't clear what actions she has instigated in him. So, another hole, but otherwise fantastic. The whole Arwen being sick thing still strikes an awkward chord. I can sort of explain why it would be in that perhaps she is dying of sorrow, and that's how they decided to redefine it. That would still fit with Tolkien's "rules," but it would mean that she has given up hope (otherwise why would she be actively dying from sorrow!). So, it's still problematic and clunky. ---- OK, no more griping, on to happier things. I've still got "issues" but I don't want to come across as hating it, 'cause I didn't ---- Pippin is perfect. All of his bits. Everything. All hail Pippin! ---- I really got the vibe this time around that Frodo was not comfortable with everyone bowing to him at the coronation. If you look at the other hobbits, they are self-conscious and elated, taken aback, yet sort of pleased (especially M&P). But Frodo! Oh the wealth of discomfort on his face, and it all looks inward. I honestly think he's got the whole gnawing guilt thing that Tolkien talked about in his letter. This was one thing I wondered about for viewing 2, and I found it (although I don't think I'm making it up). *sigh* What a great actor that laddy is. ----- Alright, I'll leave it at that. I've more percolating away, but this is quite long enough as it is, and I've got to get back to my work! (P.S., I rather liked Lumpy! He's got attitude, and he's the only orc with any discipline.)
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Or did I get that wrong Miami? Oh yeah, Elijah Wood RAWKS!
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Erm, djinnj..so what do you think Lumpy is? Man,? Mineral? Vegetable? Yeah, I kinda like his coolness under fire b-b-but, he's just not , well, Orcish looking...thas all. I know what you mean about the Arwen thing,; it's just so baffling and painfully not necessary. I hope there's no more of that in the EE or perhaps a better explanation...SOMETHING! ** All right Miami...this was your move now get over here and entertain us!
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Damn - here I go and find a nice new home and it gets hosed almost immediately! I'm sure it has to do with all those 'first' posts at Harry's top ten. Once they start deleting those, it hoses posts everywhere else. Oh well, hopefully my incantation above will work. ***Now for something completely different: I don't think that the scene with the Mouth of Sauron could be anywhere near as suspenseful as in the book for the simple reason that at that point in the book, we don't know Frodo's fate. All we know is that he is still alive and has been taken into the Tower of Cirith Ungol, sans the Ring. In the EE, by the time the Mouth of Sauron scene is shown, we will have already seen Frodo's rescue from the Tower by Samwise Gamgee. I wonder if even in a small way, that played into P.J.'s ultimate decision to place the scene in the EE rather than the theatrical cut. ***And from the once more for good measure dept.: UNHOSE, Foul Dwimmerlaik!!!!!!!!!
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for bringing you to a place that Johnny Suede had already pissed on. Fortunately I've brought some Lysol with me, so just a little elbow grease and I can scour his drivel from memory.
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Miami! I miss the MoS for the way it would change the scene, not for any suprise value. I insert it in my head now, but I can see where it's missing ('cause the film cuts awfully quick in a few places). If the characters think Frodo is caught and the Ring discovered, it changes Aragorn's last words. With Frodo uncaught, it's a desperate last stand with a glimmer of hope that at least they've given Frodo a chance (the world will survive even if they don't). With Frodo caught, it is a desperate last stand to take out as many of the enemy as possible before they are completely obliterated and the world goes dark forever. There is no unreasoning hope possible in that scenario, and I wanted that level of despair, anger and sorrow in that scene. --- morGy! regarding Lumpy. I recall R.Taylor saying somewhere about the Uruk-hai that bad things happened to them under the sun, their skin became burnt and they aged quickly, or some such. So perhaps they did something along those lines for the Mordor orcs as well (yes, I know, no sun in the land of perpetual darkness). Then again, maybe they were giving him back-story. I imagine that orcs that are in any way considered un-whole or unfit would be culled at the earliest opportunity. No food or resources going to raising crippled orclings. So, p'raps he's lieutenant because he outsmarted, outmeaned and otherwise outperformed every other orc in his 'class.' Also, did you notice the complete absence of Isengard Uruks? The new orcs are exclusively of the various Mordor types. Leaner, sharper featured, lighter skinned (some green), shorter, etc. I don't find him that outlandish compared to the other Mordor orcs (most of them are wearing helms anyway). Nope, I rather like Lumpy. He had such a time breaking the glass ceiling, and then look at the shoddy troops he's given to work with. Poor Lumpy....
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Nice unbiased review there Johnny. Think you could've tried a little harder to NOT like it? I do have one question, why do you want to be a Tailender?
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Don't feed the trolls! If he wants to talk to himself, that's fine. We can all easily skip his posts. If he wants to 'play nice' he can prove it. I'd rather read your opinion of my take on Lumpy! ---- Oh, something I picked up on TORn which I sort of noticed time #1 and I think I can confirm from time #2. It looks like Sam calls Baby Gamgee by name! Rather, it certainly looks like he says "Frodo" and that's the right name for his second child. *does happy dance*
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Dec 30, 2003 1:18:51 PM CST
If we're "silly Tailenders," what does that make you?
by daughter of time
Johnny, you go to great lengths to follow us around to talk about a movie you describe in contemptuous, scatalogical terms, and which you couldn't be bothered to finish, which points to only one conclusion - given the absence of anything else to do(or you wouldn't be here, wasting your precious time) you still have a deep need not to be "left out" of our silliness.
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Well djinnj, dat dey be da queshion mos
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So I can get to this Morgoth's Ring I keep hearing about! Yep, Richard Taylor was talking about their conceptualization of the Uruks, rather than anything coming out of source texts. I thought it was a neat idea though, since Tolkien did talk about the orcs not liking the sun but enduring it. ---- I take Lumpy to be a 'revised' Gothmog. They needed a leader on the ground directing the battle since the Nazgul were so inconveniently in the air the whole time (sort of makes sense, can you imagine being the troll having stand in the back holding the bridle of a fell beast instead of fighting? Oh the mockery to be endured from piddling orcs! Nyah nyah little stabletroll!). It gives the attackers weight to have the offensive clearly led by a malevolent intelligence, instead of just swarming like the Moria orcs did in FotR. And I know all the Uruks were demolished by the Huorns. It was great to see that they actually made so many different kinds of orcs, and a nice thing the TT:EE explained more clearly. The short bit in the theatrical release worked, but I liked the longer bit which foreshadows the infighting later. ---- There are 2 places in RotK where the dark is mentioned (when Sam wakes up and says he's slept too long, I can't remember exactly where the other is). Sadly, they are both Frodo/Sam scenes, so there is no clear indication that the darkness has spread into Gondor. ---- Didja notice one of the Nazgul fell off one of the Fell Beasts when the eagles were attacking? I wondered about that, I did....
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djinnj, I was also looking forward to seeing some of the "deteriorating" Uruk Hai that Richard Taylor spoke about. I thought that the Uruk Hai leader (presumably Ugluk) who led the group which took Merry and Pippin towards Fanghorn was looking rather "mottled" in sunlight compared to Lurtz. But in RotK, I couldn't see any of Saruman's hybrids, and presumably they were all wiped out at Helm's Deep (though people who didn't see the SEE might wonder how).*********According to scraps collected by Christopher Tolkien in "Morgoth's Ring" JRRT came to the view that Melkor (through Sauron) used men in the breeding of orcs but there are some indications he then moved away from this view. It doesn't appear that Sauron interbred men and orcs in Mordor during the Second or Third Ages.******* Of course, in the book, the "Uruk Hai" are just light-tolerant warrior orcs of Mordor and Isengard. Saruman's "Men-orcs" and "Orc-men" (like the Southerner at Bree) are are recent hybrids, maybe two distinct races, bred by Saruman, who are light tolerant but different from Uruk hai. In any event, within the constraints of cinematic simplification, the depiction of different breeds of orcs is a cool thing.*******morG and others suggested many TB's ago why Lumpy/Gothmog was probably a Black Numenorean rather than a Mordor orc. But in view of the passage morG summarized from "Morgoth's Ring", it's possible that Gothmog was a lesser Maiar.*******Like most trolls here, Johnny Suede seems to suffer from the adolescent terror of being thought soft-hearted. Hence the need to track down Tailenders to exhibit his synthetic contempt for the movies. And the need to leave the cinema before the "soppy bits" :-)
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Very movingly delivered, though his rasping voice in the last lines almost shades into Messala dying in "Ben-Hur." And speaking of other films, I think my favorite orcs are really the ones that remind me of the Winged Monkeys... the idiotically grinning, upward-looking, slightly shuffling toadie orcs. Due to forgetting that my watch battery is winding down, I was 20 minutes late to #4 today! Though it could have been worse - at least I missed Smeagol and Deagol. Came in just after Pippin's Palantir grope - and don't they sleep heavily at Edoras! You'd think a thrashing, writhing hobbit with a flaming orb would wake the dead, never mind a wizard. To my mind the Flaming Palantir is way overdone, but it doesn't detract from Billy Boyd's performance, which is just as worthy of Oscar consideration as Sean Astin's - and Elijah's! - even if it lacks the "big" moments. It has many perfect small moments. ***I decided this time through that the Faramir's charge sequence would be fine if they would JUST edit out Denethor's last red drool - besides, it interferes with the last notes of Pippin's song, and they cut to Denethor eating indifferently as he finishes, which makes the point. ***I quite like the Gondorian civilians. They suffer nobly like Tolkien characters, not cringingly. (Has anyone else heard of the top tier of Minas Tirith referred to as Denethor's Runway?) ***The thought that was tickling at me has finally emerged: why, during the lighting of the beacons, does it shift from day to night and back again (aside from looking really cool)? The sequence appears to be seamless, with no more than 15 seconds between beacons. Not that I'd change it.... ***Faramir's cavalry charge: cool imagery, but completely illogical - a cavalry charge against a heavily fortified WALL. Worse than charging pikes. And why do the Rohirrim arrive from the southeast? (The sun is on their far left and behind them as they mass for the charge.) ***I may have asked this before, but why does Gollum bother to separate Frodo from Sam, when if anything, he'd probably enjoy seeing Sam wrapped and eaten? And - this is another example of changes disturbing the sense - since Gollum has already made up his mind to kill the hobbits in Ithilien, and is not ambiguous and still potentially redeemable (as he is in the book, until Sam accuses him of "pawing at master"), why does he go to all the trouble of helping them up the Stairs - when a slip would do his job for him? ***I'm also going to be a bit heretical here and suggest that, much as I love "Well, I'm back" in the book (in its proper setting, indoors, in Bag End), the better ending cinematically would have been the ship sailing away. We never see Sam torn in two, so the voice over doesn't carry the weight it should, and adorable as the homecoming is, it's, well... cute. And cute is not the last image I want after an epic, and after the bittersweet partings of the Grey Havens, and the music swelling and the ship disappearing into gold... which is a PERFECT ending, for the movie. Just as "Well, I'm back" is for the book.
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Dec 31, 2003 7:10:59 AM CST
looooong post mostly in response to DoT, but with a dash of orcs
by djinnj
irritable! The orcs in the first M&P scene in TTT had greying hair, unlike when we saw them in FotR. ----- DoT! Boyd COMPLETELY saves the palantir scene from being a massive hoke-fest doesn't he. He is so perfect there, from his tense trembling to his breaking out of the thrall to his pained and terrified cringing. And, I've never been able to drag my eyes away long enough to wonder at how they did that most tender cradling of his face by Gandalf! AND he mixes humor and drama so well. From the palantir scene to the lighting of the beacon, the speaking out bit when he meets Denethor and then his pledging his fealty. The reluctant kiss of the ring. That extra little twist to how he says "evil times." All spot on. ---- Actually, I liked how Noble did Denethor in the beginning of that scene when Pippin swears his oath. He had a sort of gleeful condescension about him, a festival air totally at odds with the situation. And then, of course, he twists this all to use against Faramir (explaining the glee, I suppose). I find the eating over the top, but my god I love the rest of it. ----- I too find the charge moving yet illogical. Actually, I find a lot (most? all?) of the military tactics illogical (those from TTT also, and how did they LOAD those trebuchets in Minas Tirith?). And I too would have preferred Faramir to have been struck down in an orderly retreat as he kept his men from breaking ranks. We really don't get a sense of him as a great leader of men. He's undermined by the fact that we never see him effectively lead any offenses on his own except the one in Ithilien. The first retaking of Osgiliath specifically shows Boromir taking the lead (as was appropriate), and then they fail to hold Osgiliath. Granted, they're outnumbered, but the only battle he's been shown to win so far was an ambush of Haradrim! No, I wanted the great leader of men and we got the shell-shocked warrior instead. It does occur to me, though, that this may be another way to keep him from competing with our concept of Aragorn, who also hasn't really been shown as a leader of men. In fact, Theoden's line "It was not Theoden of Rohan who led our people to victory" doesn't quite work for me. I know it's his reference to despairing at the last moment, but Theoden was so strong otherwise, and his decision to retreat to Helm's Deep was completely correct! However, back to Faramir, Boromir's description of Minas Tirith and Gondor at the end of FotR reflects a decline from what the book had. Denethor's rule failing and the people losing hope makes more sense if Faramir is kept from exerting power and command. So I can see the filmmakers' making the Rangers of Ithilien into an important aspect of the border defenses, but a far from numerous guerilla force not adept at open warfare. The changes make sense within the continuum of the film (although they aren't fleshed out enough), but I still miss book Faramir! (Not that I mind looking at David Wenham, or find his performance at fault!) ---- Regarding Gollum going through the trouble of getting rid of Sam and taking 'em up the Stairs to Her. Actually, I didn't have a problem with either. I assumed that Sam had learned too much and Gollum preferred getting rid of him early rather than trust that Frodo's suspicions could be maintained. Also, having just one enter Shelob's lair makes it that much more certain that he will be caught. And, of course, Gollum doesn't like Sam, and I'm sure petty revenge figures into his behavior somewhere. He just delights in making Sam unhappy, and nothing would hurt Sam more. Regarding taking them to Her, well actually this was part of why Smeagol wouldn't kill Frodo outright in the first place, and it's in the book as well. He'd promised on the Ring, and the Ring is an extremely powerful talisman to swear upon. Oathbreakers have horrible things happen to them, so much so that the sons of Feanor preferred to doom themselves and cause untold strife rather than give up their oath to reclaim the Silmarils. We've even got the example in RotK of the Dead who broke their oath to Isildur. So, Gollum in the book was trying to get around his promise by having Her do the dirty work, and Smeagol in TTT says both that he's promised and that it's too risky. I don't think he would have escaped the curse, but his twisted mind could rationalize it that way. I also think they did "potentially redemptive Gollum" earlier in TTT, when Sam was talking at the window. I'd hope that would lead to the "Nice master" scene, but apparently that was the filmmakers' way of having him realize _by himself_ that he could never come back, instead of having it be caused by Sam. ----- Now that I've seen it again, I've discovered that I don't like a tiny part of Aragorn's coronation. There's a bit where he speaks to the people, before he sings Elendil's words. There's something about the way he speaks and gestures that I just find too earnest. It lacks a forcefulness about it and seems too studied. *sigh* I did note, however, that his greeting Leggy mirrors his meeting Leggy at Helm's Deep when Leggy gives him back the Evenstar and Aragorn responds with 'thank you' ("Hannon le"). At the coronation, their relative positions are the same, and Aragorn says to Leggy "Hannon le." Then Leggy moves aside and there's Arwen. Nice echo, that. There's also an article over at TORn which speculates that the banner Arwen is carrying is a reinterpretation of the banner she sewed in the book. That instead of making it THE banner, they've done something smaller and more personal to be her contribution. ----- Oy, this is a huge post! I'll shut up now.
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Dec 31, 2003 8:48:30 AM CST
As a surly reductionist, Hell holds no terrors for me, Johnny Su
by irritable
.... and the risk that internet curses may be efficacious seems remote.******Having read all your December 2003 LotR posts, I'm a bit skeptical about your latest. Still, if you really believe what you type, I'm prepared to bite and, as others here have previously done, invite you to make your case. Like ryalto 3.0 (a fiercely dogmatic poster, but far too shy to debate Elanor) you seem to contend (in extravagantly overstated ways - but I guess that's just the AICN house style) that the LotR movies were adversely affected by professional incompetence. Unfortunately, like Ryalto, you tend to express your contentions as axiomatic. The trouble is, so many movie-making skills are evaluated in a largely subjective way, as matters of personal taste and predilection. People make personal value judgments about whether a movie is "clumsily" edited, or "well written" or "skilfully" directed etc but there are few objective benchmarks for these concepts. Although people speak of "pacing" as if it was measurable, when you get right down to it, "pacing" is relative, subjective, a bit like a comedian's timing. Where an objective benchmark exists for a cinematic skill, it can be identified and deployed in argument - but I haven't seen you do this yet. Scornful generalisations aren't a substitute.********The overwhelming majority of serious and professional movie reviewers haven't noticed the defects you find so glaring. They may all be wrong, or seduced by hype, or incompetent as critics, or too cowardly to differ from the mob. Applying Occam's Razor, that's unlikely. So, if you're really convinced they got it wrong, I'd be interested to hear you make your case. Just saying "that's just my opinion." isn't very persuasive - if you want to persuade rather than bait people. I don't think any regular Tailender has suggested that RotK was "perfect" or that it could not be improved, so don't assume that people's minds are closed to persuasion. There's room for informed debate about these movies, which, like it or not, are new cinematic and cultural landmarks.********So, out of interest, why do you say RotK was so badly edited?
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djinnj, I assumed Ugluk was just an older chap. (Meaning, six months old, if the Uruks were hatched when Gandalf was imprisoned at Isengard - just to ventilate a pet peeve). The fight at Parth Galen was on the afternoon of the day before the orc debate scene in TTT, but I can't say I noticed any grey hairs amongst the Uruks in FotR. So maybe, as you suggest, there's a bit of accelerated aging on display. Sort of reverse Theoden-Revamp (without the Miracle Beard-Trim side-effect ... to ventilate another pet peeve). But that doesn't really explain Richard Taylor's comment which seemed to be directed at RotK. Perhaps it will all be explained in the next SEE.******Come to think of it, is it the case that one of the two groups of orcs in the tower of Cirith Ungol looked a lot like Saruman's troops? If so, how does that fit in? *********DoT, I wondered about those beacons too. I can accept that early morning at Minas Tirith was pre-dawn several hundred miles west, but why was the sun up at Edoras? Perhaps the fellows on the last beacon were asleep on the job?*****I agree that Billy Boyd rose to the occasion in a very impressive way when he finally had some strong dramatic material to work with. Having winced through some 'comedy' from Billy and Dominic in the first two films, I thought Billy B's acting was a revelation in RotK. What could have been a stock portrayal of the fearful debutant warrior was instead authentic and emotionally engaging. (Though maybe not for Johnny S)*****As for Denethor, it's surprising how many of his important lines in the book were repeated verbatim in the film, but to completely different effect. Without knowing that the Palantir is the cause of his bizarre behaviour, his motivation is just as unfathomable as Faramir's was in the theatrical version of TTT, which omitted the Osgiliath scene with Boromir and Denethor.*****As for Gollum leaving the dirty work to Shelob, I agree with djinnj that Gollum felt he could have Frodo killed by Shelob without breaking his oath. The script writers made an interesting departure in Gollum's plan: it was far more vindictive for Gollum to destroy the relationship between Sam and Frodo than simply to strangle Sam in the dark, or sneakily trip him on the stairs.
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Especially the last time.... Cool to lob their own broken walls back at the orcs, but - how did they do it? And for that matter, the orc catapults were much too effective. Why bother with Grond, when entire towers collapsed with a single rock? They could have left the gates standing, and just knocked down the walls around them! But then, these are films where it pays not to know much about military tactics or history.... It just drives you crazy. ***Okay, I'll accept that Gollum's oath still had some effect... except that it doesn't seem to, in Gollum's monologues, where a reference would have been nice. We hear him debating the risk after Osgiliath, but never the promise to the Precious. ***And yes, I just love Denethor regarding Pippin with such jovial approval, such "fatherly" benevolence... and then Pippin's kiss of the ring, and his timing of "evil times." ***A note on pacing: It is entirely subjective, and no more so than in this film. The parts especially considered slow and unnecessary by some, are by others most beloved. (Johnny, if you enjoy being moved, WHY would you skip the last half hour?)
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Simple djinnj, styrofoam is not that heavy! ;~) And as for horrible things happening to Oathbreakers, you can say that again. Like they turn green for one thing! Rimshot [I'm on a roll now!]. Seriously though, I completely agree about Theoden's line. For a second there I thought that Bernard Hill must have seen a different Two Towers than I did. ***DoT, as the tailender who feels that he lobbied harder than anyone to get "Well, I'm back." as the final line in the film, I am surprised to find myself agreeing with you that the film should have ended with the ship sailing into the West. The "real" ending could have been left for the EE, which I feel would have made for a stronger theatrical ending. I do like Smeagol and Deagol though. ***Finally, HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!
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Obviously I don't include the genius above me who condemns the part of the film he didn't see (according to him, anyway), but to all you wonderful tailenders, Happy New Year! (And don't thinkI've forgotten about Club Angband, either!) :)
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Dec 31, 2003 9:53:15 PM CST
AAGGGHHH, horribly hosed! My last post (chronologically) was sup
by raw_bean
Happy New Year folks, if anyone finds this. :)
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...and even you, Johnny Suede (by the fact of posting at a Tailend, you are now one, erm, ...ender, that is :). ** Dammit, all this flu has really interfered with all my group Return viewing plans. THe big office outing this past Tusday got hosed and I'VE got the freakin'
Morgul Bug." Blarrgghh...mebbe iffen I'm better me an' the morGettes can go see it again before morGette#1 heads back to Orlando. -
So, I'm going to see PJ give a talk on Jan 11 at the Film Society of Lincoln Center thing he's doing. Do you have any questions for him? I don't know if they will be permitting any audience questions, but I can at least take notes of what he does say!
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Jan 01, 2004 10:04:27 PM CST
to reiterate since this hosing is completely without rhyme or re
by djinnj
Let me know if you have any questions for PJ, since I'll be going to the Film Society of Lincoln Center talk he is giving on Jan 11. Again, no promises that I'll actually be able to ask him anything, but the answers may come out during his talk and I can take notes!
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Hello tailenders. Hope you've all had a happy holidays, and a great time in 2003, and a better time to come in 2004! just thought i'd pop back in to start comparing impressions of a certain film i've seen, and give a thank'ee to miami for the mammoth thru the post. Only had a chance to read some of the posts here, but i have to say i loved the film. A few moments i have to squirm through (shelob being the only bit i HAVE to cover my eyes at though, nothing to do with quality there.;) I didn't like all the portrayal of denathor, but most of it was great, just the bit where he's eating, and the fact that his madness isn't explained. did anyone else get the impression that he's ony eating (in a frankly disgusting way, but that i suppose is the point) because that's his way to cover up the fact that he know's he's just sent his last son to die? or am i just grasping at staws? *** loved most of the plantir scene except the cgi, and found smegollum really disturbing! though i loved the reference that he shares with frodo, as they both end up forgetting the taste of food etc. Billy boyd is just brilliant, and i still love the portayal of frodo by elijah. (come on oscar nominations!) i expect they didn't end on the boat crossing the water, with a shimmering glass curtain rolling back, because it would have confused too many people due to the scene where gandalf describes to pippin what it's like to die, but i wouldhave loved to see it. still made for a beautiful moment in the film. *** i'll stop rambling now.
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Hi and a happy new year to everybody! *** Like morGoth I caught the flu just in time for the holidays and had to spend most of my precious time in Germany in bed. I did get up on two occasions though: one was a familiy moot with all my uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces, cousins and what have you on my mother
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*sigh* I can't access my primary email account for apparently no reason at all. grrr.... So, if anyone (Elaine? Bean?) has tried to email me in the last 12 hours or so, I haven't been able to read it! I've an alternate email address though, my user id at earthlink.net *grouses*
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Demmed hosing. Good movie innit? Heh. Feel better Sabster! Glad you got to see it 'alive and unspoiled.' ---- The more I think about it, the more I know there has to be a lot of Denethor's scenes missing. If he doesn't get as significant a reworking (if not more) in the RotK:EE as Faramir received in the TT:EE, I'll eat my shoe. Not just the palantir scene we all want (or some sort of equivalent), but also some more development of his relationship with Faramir. And, since they've already spilled the beans in the TT:EE that Aragorn's 87 and fought with Thengel, maybe they'll have Denethor reminisce about that goody-goody Thorongil that Daddy was always going on about.
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I wasn't going to post on AICN anymore (my New Year's resolution... you see how long they last, Djinnj!) but I simply cannot let your linguistic challenge pass unnoticed. My educated guess is that "K
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I, too, am going to see Peter Jackson on the 11th! Have I somehow missed the fact that in addition to your being a highly skilled marshmallow Balrog maker,
you are a New Yorker as well? Hmmmm. I think we should get some other tailenders to come along! (I have some extra tickets at the moment, on offer to some geek chums I know. I'm waiting to hear back if they are really on board.) I was just about to post my own request for PJ questions. I am SO psyched for it. Do you have tickets to the screenings, too? I was locked
out of ROTK but I have the other two.***In other news, there is yet ANOTHER crybaby purist rant over at TORN. "The book has been tainted by the films" whines the latest wanker. Rubbish. For the trillionth time, the films have not changed the books. The books still contain all the same glorious words and in the same glorious order, too!***I am now up to five viewings, the fifth being my most favorite yet.
Still cry like crazy; now, more than ever over anything related to Theoden/Eowyn. One of my favorite things about ROTK is how Frodo is so much in everyone's mind. I really missed that in Towers, having other characters mention Frodo. Although thanks to the SEE I now know it was always written in, just cut for the theatrical version. In ROTK, the only thing I still object to is Gandalf forsaking pity regarding Denethor. Similar to Faramir forsaking pity of Gollum in the beating scene. I understand Gandalf and Shadowfax knocking Denethor away from harming Pippin but once they see Denethor fall back on the pyre and especially when Denethor calls to Faramir, film-Gandalf at least should extend a hand to attempt to save his life, as film-Aragorn did to Grima, even if it is too late to save Denethor from being burned. As it is, it looks as though Gandalf
actively allows Denethor to die, which can't be right. When added to Gandalf's earlier smack-down (which I find shocking yet appropriate for that moment) and his slightly premature line "so passes Denethor..." it gives the impression that Gandalf is glad to be rid of Denethor! I wonder if McKellen voiced any objections
at the time, or whether this is simply a lesson in how a specific
(wrong) impression can be created
by cuts. In future viewings I intend to mentally insert such a gesture from Gandalf at the moment Denethor sees Faramir's eyes begin to open. But Denethor spurns his hand, screams and jumps up for his sprint to
comet destiny.***As much as I adore Frodo's warm, healed face on the ship and its fade up into white I can't imagine the outcry on these boards if "Well I'm back" hadn't been included!!!!8~). How easy it is to say NOW
"leave that for the SEE" but I disagree. When I read the book I often want to end on the rain curtain too, but Tolkien ended with Sam so I think PJ made the
right choice. I find it a delightful irony that following
"the book" in this matter is thought by some to be, um, lacking a certain "cinematic"
quality. Wink, wink, tease, tease. 8~). -
I've got a few questions I wouldn't mind you passing onto PJ. 1. Why did he include a connection between Arwen's lifeforce and the destruction of the ring and then not explain it? 2. Why did the forces of Sauron charge at Minas Tirith at all? If the power of their catapaults was so mighty, why not just stand back and destroy it at your leisure? Why did Gondor's cavalry charge a solid wall? What were they going to do to it? How did Merry recover from stabbing the Witch king so quickly and yet Eowyn did not? What happened to Saruman, did he live in Orthanc for ever more? I could go on but there's no point really. It's a strange thing, but I think I like this movie the most out of the 3, and yet I (and apparently others) have the most problems with it. Ah well, Happy New years all... Cheers.
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Way neato cool! I'm going to just the 11th, no tix for the Saturday fest sadly, with a friend from my old job. I'd love to meet up! Maybe we should meet before? It starts 2 ish, perhaps lunch is in order? Regarding NYC? I worked there for almost 9 years, ending this last August when I started fulltime study again. But I live 'cross the river in NJ. Email me if your plans permit a lunch outing! Oh, and your opinion. Is it hokey to prepare a gift for PJ and his writing team in the hopes that I can give it to him there? It's not like they need anything, but I feel the need to offer them a concrete sign of my appreciation....
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Elaine! You have to rescind that resolution. What could you have been thinking! Congrats on converting your parentals. Well done.***Conan: I cut and pasted your requests and will try to do you justice.***djinnj: I sent an e-mail off to you about lunch. Now, if only that dern Pallando would answer the e-mail I sent HIM!***Nothing new to report today except that I got a copy of Cinefex magazine. Whooosh! What a read! They start soft and then get all technical and my eyes just glaze over. I want anecdotes, guys! Who got mad at who, who stubbed his toe, who dated a beared woman of Rohan, etc. I also read Andy Serkis's book "Gollum" which was truly fascinating. It's cool from a LOTR fan perspective but if you know actors, it's even more so. It helps if you LIKE actors to begin with. You get right inside all of his neuroses as well as insight into the whole shoot.
***Happy 2004! -
I agree. It's almost as if Gandalf sat there and waited for the opportunity to say "so passes Denethor," like that Luka song about overhearing child abuse ("Put down the guitar and pick up the phone" -I Love the 80's) Perhaps the argument is that Gandalf couldn't see what was going on inside the fire, but the editing in that scene could have been better. ************* ************ djinnj: If I had a gift in mind (and I were going, congratulations on getting tickets), I would bring it. You may or may not get a chance to present it to any of them, but I find from experience that most filmmakers who are also good people appreciate these things. Any chance you'll divulge the contents of this gift? *********************** *********************** I'd also like to take this opportunity to admit that I'm sorry for underestimating just how annoying trolls can be, especially when you feel strongly about something. Perhaps I would have better understood the general reaction towards people who spoke against LotR if I had realized just how much of them did it in the name of vanity. ********************** ***************** Can anyone hook me up with a link to that giant, LotR trailer? The one where it's one trailer for all three movies?
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Jan 04, 2004 5:44:16 AM CST
I should have known that this was way too easy for you, Elaine!
by sabster
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www.movie-list.com/ trailers.php?id=lordoftheringstrilogy
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I got tix just a few days ago when TORn posted that more tix were available. Very excited. It's not the film day (which is the 10th and is still AFAIK sold out) with the cast and a Q&A after the third film, but we get to have the man himself, with hopefully no asinine questions from the audience. ---- Re: the gift? I've been knitting mobius loop scarves, and I think I can have the 3 I want to bring ready by then. I've been thinking of knitting them for everyone I really liked from the cast as well, but the list is really long (up to a dozen or more, dang ensemble piece...)! But maybe I can knit up a Frodo, Sam, Gollum set at least. Of course, I don't expect them to wear them. Not only are they not precisely a hip fashion statement, but you never know what someone likes in terms of color and fiber.
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At least, the TORn page, not the Lincoln Center one (there's no online purchasing for this anyway, in person or by phone only). I dunno if they've any tix left, but just in case anyone's interested enough to check! http://www.theonering.net/ perl/newsview/8/1072832592 Take out the spaces in front of "perl" of course....
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Hope hope hope
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A few thoughts on this. I agree that this was a WTF moment for me the first time. And if I were the screenwriters, I would have left out the line about how her
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Do any of you know the Pink Floyd album
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Jan 04, 2004 3:30:28 PM CST
Conclusion to my Trilogy of Posts - (first I wrote "Tilorgy" - h
by elanor
Djinnj: Regarding bringing PJ a present. I think it is perfectly lovely and I encourage you to go ahead. You may not be able to give it directly to him but I bet someone will take it for him.
I don -
What was the significance (if any) of the Frodo/Nazgul in Osgiliath scene from Two Towers? Yup, in all of the three movies, that
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Jan 04, 2004 4:16:13 PM CST
Sotty Vala answers Hyperborean tactical questions near Standelf!
by morgoth
Conan, I agree that Faramir
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"Bring out the dead! Bring out the dead!" OK, that's enough...
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...great stuff elanor and I must say that I haven't heard anyone bring up "Echoes" for years! Well, except for the occasional explanation I offer up when I say "One of these days..." and someone else gets the joke but most have that "WTF is he talking about?" look (I get that a lot :). Cool! Hmm...I might have to drag it out (is it on vinyl or tape?) and see if I can't recreate your experience. Anyway, must fly, but lummee iffen I don't intend to give your take on Arwen quite a bit more thought! Namarie for now!
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Jan 04, 2004 6:15:11 PM CST
"The Quiet Talkback" (SCENE: Unaware that SpacePerv's come up be
by runelord
[morGoth doll (high-pitched voice)]: "Oooh Pallando, you are SO smart! The absolute smartest and you're NEVER wrong about Tolkien or the movies! I am forced to agree about EVerything you've EVER said about Merry's blade! Oh oh oh, how wrong I am!" (deep, strong voice) Why, that's okay, li'l morGy! We all make mistakes from time to time! [dolls in unison]: "Yaaay for Pallando! He's the BEST Tailender!" (deep, strong voice) Now now, please! [elanor and Alice dolls]: "And the best-looking, too!" [elanor doll]: "Back off, Alice! I saw him first!" [Alice doll, horribly off English accent]: "Roight, yew cow! Yewr mayrried, sow buggah!" [elanor doll]: "So're you, bitch!" [mashes the two dolls together, rolls them back and forth in ridiculous simulation of a catfight] (deep, strong voice) Please, ladies, please! You're embarrassing me! [SpacePerv clears his throat. Pallando Blue shrieks, jumps roughly 34 feet straight up. Lands poorly, struggles to his feet, begins dusting himself off.] Uh... heh heh. Well, at least I haven't been running around the Talkback in drag with a shotgun, right? Er... So! Um... >ahem< ....seen anyone else about?
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Vintage April '02. No one does ninny like Pallando.
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Miami's a dear, in't he? Glad he drug you back. And Elaine, such a strange resolution. You should be posting here MORE. **** Conan (et all): Do you suppose Eowyn isn't at the Black Gate because the Witch King broke her arm whereas Merry only suffered the paralyzing effect? Perhaps Jackson and Co. decided that Aragorn could completely heal that because it wasn't a truly physical wound, therefore something that the King's will could overcome. Blast - was Eowyn's arm in a sling at the coronation? I always forget to look. ****Elanor, as always you give me much to think about. (And much to look for - Elvish ears, eh?) Elrond describing Arwen's wandering AFTER death? Geez, that puts a whole new spin on her devotion. Luckily for her she passed the circles of the world after all but how was she to know that? The thought is shivering. ** I'd put my vote towards asking PJ about this little gem he so kindly thunked off our amazed skulls - what the heck IS his reasoning for Arwen's connection? If you don't get to ask he'd better mention it on the commentary! **** MorGoth: here's another WTF look for your collection. "One of these days..."? I'm only a young 'un! You guys and your obscure references...
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Didn't notice your recent post until just now. It has to be your lamest excuse yet for dodging the issue. You say: "If the movies *are* cinematic and cultural landmarks...then *any* form of debate is a moot point". You seem to be confused about the meaning of "moot". It means "debatable". Debate is what you were invited to do. Regardless of whether a freudian headmaster invited you or not.
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Jan 04, 2004 10:17:37 PM CST
This Tb's getting ridiculous, I may have to speak a word of comm
by conan_the_humble
Well MorGy, I guess their means of attack would depend on their motivation, did they want to physically kill EVERY single person inside Minas Tirirth, or would they have been content killing most of them and destroying the city and thus breaking the power of Gondor forever? I for one don't agree with the "world of men" bit they kept going on with in the movies, either. Did Sarumen intend on killing all the Dunlenders when his war was over? What about the Southrons, the Haradrim and the Easterlings, the Corsairs and the Black Numenoreans, were they all going to be exterminated as well? I wanted to say something about Elanor's comments about Arwen and her life span as well, what was it? Ah yes. In the appendicies of LOTR it explains that the children of the Peredhil (half elven) remained Eldar as long as they dwelt with Elrond in Middle Earth. If they chose to depart with him to the West they would remain Eldar. If they stayed in Middle Earth after Elrond's departure they would become mortal. I don't recall if there was any particular time span attached to this process, I assume (without the benefit of any particular insight or knowledge) it would be fairly gradual. Cheers.
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From a friend's e-mail this morning: 'We saw ROTK once, and plan on seeing it again. The sequence of the beacons lighting gave me chills. But I am still unhappy with the shortchanging of the whole Stewards of Gondor thing. I don't see any actual motivation for Faramir other than "Dad always liked you best." It trivializes the point Tolkien was (I think) trying to make with the character of Faramir -- that some men have a deep inherent bent for that which is good, regardless of the conflicting forces around them and the general run of human frailty. And Denethor was so
two-dimensional and distorted it was hard to see any commonality at all between Jackson's vision and Tolkien's exploration of the effects of power on good men
outside the context of the great Good/Evil struggle represented in the War of the Ring. They let pass a wonderful opportunity there.' -
And our new posts are going to fill up the blank spots left by his banning. Interesting since he (JS) seemed to be turning human in his last 2 posts. ---- TORn posted an interview w/John Noble which suggests that they did actually film quite a bit of stuff that would flesh out Denethor's motivation. (http://www.theonering.net/ staticnews/1073291100.html) But it all got removed in the great Rushing of the Film. It was interesting reading what Noble thought of Denethor and performing him. I particularly liked this line, which makes me miss the absent scenes all the more: "And I'm very proud of Denethor [his performance]. Very proud of what happened. He ... upsets me. Here. He really upsets me. But I'm proud of it." and this bit "he doesn't snap out of it, even when his son returns from Osgiliath riddled with arrows. .... I don't think he realises he's being an idiot at all until that last defining moment when he looks down and sees his beautiful son. Up until that time he's just self obsessed." Dagnabit, I want to see that 4:15 cut NOW!!! *sulks*
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Hooray DoT!
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Rumor has it that Pallando is on his way back from his travels. Look for his coming on the morning of the next day. Look to the east.***Runelord, congrats, it was a mighty effort and I laughed a LOT! Thanks.***I also read the John Noble interview and was very glad to see some attention being paid to him. I think his acting is superb and I am only sorry that I did not wax enthusiastic about it before I read this article. I think one of the reasons we are so, so eager to see the cut scenes is because his performance includes such history, such obvious richness and depth to this character. The way he holds tension in his cheeks while spitting words back at Gandalf in the first scene. The enormous grief he conveys with his first words. His barely contained rage in his lines about Aragorn; his condescension and pride in showing he is "smarter than Gandalf". His ever-so-slightly-demented amusement at Pippin swearing his oath and the flip side of that later when he casually drags Pippin by the arm down the hallway of the tombs, and tosses him into the street, like putting out the cat at night or dumping a sack of old newspapers. Oh, yeah, I would like to see more of this actor!
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Movies are always sexier with conflict. ;-)
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Off my ROTK high? No! Offa my high horse. Hullooo everybody! I kinda think I wandered outta here last month with a bit of a stodgy pooh-poohing of an exit--okay, so I was still stunned and under the influence of Trilogy Tuesday, but still--so before wasting any time on pleasantries I figure I oughta come right down to earth with THE THINGS IN ROTK THAT BUG ME, A LITTLE OR A LOT, IN NO CERTAIN ORDER. You know, get em out there right away, a nice reference point for when I start going all drooly connipting fanboy. Again. Inevitably. (Later today.) Forgive me for going over what's probably now old hash with y'all, and as further disclaimer I'm sure I won't remember everything that grits my teeth this first go-round. I'll also try to separate my Movie quibbles from my Adaptation quibbles. And minimize qualifying my bitching with praises. As promised this is my list of bitches! SO: Movie Bitches ** That it took last night's 5th viewing *cough* to recognize Deagol is played by famed Kiwi director Colin McKenzie (for all you "Forgotten Silver" fans). He's packed on a few, I guess. Okay, so that's bitching about me, not PJ's fault. ** That Smeagol had begun so much of his physical deformation before crawling into the Misty Mountains. The scrawniness, baldness, and advanced gingivitis, okay, but the pallor and bulging eyeballs I'd think are adaptations to centuries living underground. Should have crawled into the hole sooner, shown life underground longer. Logic issue, not an adaptation issue. Wanting some wincing pain from the sunlight, now, that'd be an adaptation ish. Who, me? ** The sloppy inclusion of the backwards pan onto Edoras and me loverly Miranda. The backwards-flapping pennants can be overlooked, as it's not entirely obvious they're flapping backwards. But couldn't they have digitally removed the smoke being sucked into the chimneys!? ** The character change of Gandalf from the mover and inspirer to the doubter. If he'd had no faith in Frodo's mission before this'd certainly be an adaptation issue, but for 2 movies he'd been the rock. Now, in Edoras and later at the end after Pelennor, he's completely different in attitude from before. He twice needs reassurance from Aragorn that he didn't screw up. Wha..? That's a within-the-movie character inconsistency, and an unexpected one. The small bit seen out of context in the ROTK trailer, G's reaction to "What does your heart tell you?" I swore was a positive reaction to Aragorn giving the correct answer, a small measure of Aragorn, not a Thank you. The full scene though, G's reaction is "Yes, yes. He is alive. Silly me, what was I thinking? What a Nervous Nelly I am. Such a goose!" Gone is the faith of G the G in FOTR, the will of G the W in T2T. At least, regarding Frodo's quest. His talk with Pippin, "A fool's hope," seems to strike the right balance, but not nearly enough. ** Not very deft handling of Arwen this time around, and her sudden mortal peril. Using another clue from the trailer, when Elrond says "You gave up your life's grace, I can protect you no longer," I decided that her waning isn't so much tied up with Sauron's waxing, but with Frodo's slow succumbing to the Ring. The ol', "What grace is given me, let it pass to him" bit at the Ford. Now, as Frodo fails, so does Arwen. Elornd's exposition scene *is* right when Frodo is so blinded by the physical and spiritual exhaustion of carrying the Ring he's sent his one last true friend packing. It's Frodo's (next-to-)last moment of not being himself, and my assumption has been it's costing Arwen dearly. Somehow. Don't ask me how. I'm just playing Sherlock Holmes here. Which, in the end, is te hub of my complaint here--that I have to. ** Problems Inherent With Editing Up To The Last Possible Minute And Sending Off The Reels In Chronological Order As You Finish Them: (Part The First) Gandalf telling Aragorn to come to Minas Tirth from a different road, look to the the south, the pirate ships... which is completely contextless, informed from nowhere and going nowhere, especially considering Elrond brings up the exact same instruction later, but better informed and with clearer detail and purpose. (Part The Second) "What of the wizard?" "I will break him." "Um, what of the wizard?" "I'm getting to it, okay?" "So, how about that wizard?" "Nag, nag, nag." "That wizard's still around, isn't he?" "Oh get off my back." "Are you ever going to break that wizard, or what?" "Man, you're like a broken record, 'wizard, wizard, wizard.'" "What of the wizard?" "Okay! Okay! Give me one goddamn minute of peace to break this Rohan king first, and I'll break the wizard! Jesus!" (Lesson: You think by reels 4 and 6 PJ wished he had reels 1 and 3 back?) ** Am I right in remembering from the first days after release, who you all are referring to as Lumpy? Welp, count me in on the make-up job assessment. First and only trip-up by Weta Workshop, IMO. Yells "foam mask," not "god is that thing ugly." At least, like a blind date set-up, he's got a great personality. :) A fave line, "Release the prisoners." Also, I don't buy a deformed orc lasting too long among his "peers," not to mention climbing the ranks to commander, no matter how smart or willful. ** The Chicken Orc always annoys me. Who's that? The second cut back to Osgiliath, just before the evacuation, one of the first orcs to kill a trooper in that sequence: He's held on camera an extra sec or two, and, turning, makes a very odd clucking noise. No offense to Oscar-winning sound designer Ben Burtt but it's that very annoying Star Wars effect that Burtt's been over-using in Eps I and II, on vehicles AND creatures, that sort of ripple-fade-echo thing. Only lasts a second but gives me a "Gah! Star Wars Prequels sounds!" jolt every time. (Now now, I'm one of them's that enjoys the SW P's, so no starting that up!) ** Why does Gandalf take Pippin out with him to rescue the Gondorian soldiers? Some of the greatest visuals of the entire film, but Pippin serves no purpose being there except for Faramir to see him AFTER they get inside the Gate. Clumsy. ** I didn't mind so much the Lembas Gambit, but I did mind the lembas all landing together in a neat pile. We SAW em disperse when Gollum tossed em over. Have Sam find one pathetic chunk to snap him out of his despair into rage, that's fine. But finding the whole pile, including wrappers--that's way too pat. ** Maybe through editing, maybe through framing, it should have been clearer when where and how Frodo lost hold of Sting and the phial. It's so dynamic a scene it's too easy to lose track of the prop geography, if that makes sense. Just an extra beat, or a quick pan, to let us know. As such it wasn't until my third viewing I thought to wonder, when Sam shows up with em both, just when it was that Frodo stopped having em. And not til last night did I have the discipline to pay attention to that (apparently leaves Sting stuck hanging in the web just before his wrassle with Gollum). ** I may be the only person on the planet to complain about Pippin's solo. And I don't really have much to complain about: I love the scene as written, the editing, the acting and idea of it. But there's just a moment or two when Billy Boyd, well, acts the singing, if you get me. Just with a subtle neck and jaw move on a dramatic note or two, and for barely a second, but... For me he needs to just sing and not Sing. Like James Dean once told Dennis Hopper, "Don't act like you're smokin' a cigarette, man. Just smoke your cigarette." I'm horrible to say this, lynch me up good for it, I know it's a Big Fan Fave Moment, but those one or two notes, for just a second, for me, turns it into Pippin's Middle-Earth Idol audition. Randy: "You tha hobbit, dawg!" Paula: "I'm in tears, beautiful." Denethor: "Pass the quail." ** Ah, Denethor. I don't have much problem with his pared-down-to-an-asshole portrayal in this cut, adaptation-wise. But I do want better transition from asshole to psycho. He seems to turn that corner awful abruptly, as is. ** Nor do I have much problem with Gandalf's physical abuse of the man; desperate times, desperate measures and all that. But it should not have been played for a laughing triumphant rah-rah, which could all be fixed with Gandalf looking more pained and regretful at the necessity, rather than a disdainful "Fool of a Too- er, Steward!" expression. I suppose this straddles the fence, arguably an adaptation bitching. ** Paths of the Dead. The ENTIRETY of my problem with the PotD is with the (gasp!) cinematography. Design of the Dead, their use in Aragorn's plot, the dead's winning the Pelennor, etc., all good by me. But in the entire sequence under the mountain there is not one single "Oh my god Lesnie and PJ and Lee and Howe are BEAUTIFUL MAD GENIUSES" like there are in just about every other scene/sequence/setting at one point or another in the trilogy. There's no, well, money shot. There's no "Oh, wow..!" There's no point where I'm dying for a pause button (I foresee taking 6 or 7 hours to get through ROTK the first time it's on DVD). It's all framed and assembled so blah, so pedestrian, so less than the rest of the movie, it saps it of quite a bit of its potential effectiveness for me. A missed opportunity, and I'm hoping there's some incredible Shot waiting in the EE. ** Also, on the trot up the PotD, Orlando's delivery is remarkably flat and droning. He's done well with keeping the Elvish aloofness without becoming dry and toneless, up til then (but gets it back some later). Besides, the history lesson should have been Aragorn's to deliver! Give Legolas his dialogue back when they reach the door and he translates. But by the time they get there I'd like him to kindly shut up. ** A troll or two on the Pelennor, the catapult-loader and the double-taker come to mind, look very CG. You'd think they'd stick with the real trolls they'd been using everywhere else. Too costly? ** Merry's stab at the W-k's knee is very poorly framed. No sense of their opposing scales, no sense of where Merry jabbed him, of where he came from on the battlefield. Eowyn's end (...mmmmm... Eowyn's end.... Whoop! Sorry! Did I say that out loud?) is handled (...oooo... handling Eowyn's end... Ack! Sorry again!) Ahem. Eowyn's part (stop that! just stop it!) in the skirmish is done well, but Merry's role is too minimized, and unclear--another lost Amazing Freeze-Frame opportunity. AND WHERE THE HELL'S HIS MAGIC DINGUS?!? ;) ** "Not if I stick you first!" One kill-capper line too many. Leave everything else about the scene, even "And that's for me old Gaffer!" before it(I can buy it, Sam's pretty well pumped up and adrenaline-rushing by then, and I like Sean's delivery--uncheeses it well) ...but dub out that last superfluous line, is all. ** EE question left hanging: If there IS to be a Mouth of Sauron scene, wherein he presents Frodo's belongings, how did the Mouth get ahold of the mithril shirt, and possibly Frodo's elven cloak and Sam's BLADE O' WESTERNESSE (!) ;) if the one orc (Shagrat, Gorbag, I always get those crazy kids mixed up) who wanted to obediently deliver them to the Eye is dusted before leaving the tower? We wonders, aye, we wonders... ** Mordor's far too sunny. As they trudge across the plain, even as Frodo tries to crawl, there's just too much sunlight. Maybe that's an adaptation/personal conception issue, but there is mention of "It's always dark here" and in the wide and long shots there's a definite clouded-over blue-black gloom. But in the tighter (i.e., shot-on-location) framing, white golden sunlight silhouettes them and shines off their grubby faces as they squint at the glare. And where's Bormir's vivid description come to life? "The very air you breathe is a poisonous fume..." etc. They shouldn't look just plain tired and thirsty, and Frodo spiritually tortured (which Wood does so damn well throughout), but struggling against genuine physical harm beyond the exhaustion of a long hike. Or maybe it's there and should be emphasized somehow, with a line or two of dialogue. ** When The Black Gates Open... Where did the Men of the West's horses go? ** Dodgy green-screen matching, entering and exiting Sammath Naur. A little wiggle around the feet, some age-old problems with dark black lines around the actors. ...Also, who else thinks that 20 years ago the final theatrical ROTK trailer would have ended with their sprint toward the camera then the freeze-frame of Frodo and Sam in mid-air leaping from the lava, with an action-music sting and the film logo slamming onto the screen? Just me? ** The chink in Wood's astounding we're-not-worthy abilities: he doesn't have a good fake-laugh. Felt so in FOTR, same so, and moreso, in ROTK. Maybe it's PJ's direction of the scene, but his reaction to the sight of his long-believed-dead friend Gandalf doesn't feel genuine (though I enjoy the IDEA of it paralleling their laughing "reunion" at the beginning of FOTR; they're used to laughing with each other, obviously). I have nothing wrong with his friends and kinsmen jumping on the bed with Frodo, they're excitable and excited. But once the greeting and hugging is done, even in jubilation they could have used some of the war-worn sobriety they demonstrate so effectively later. Instead of pratfalls onto the mattress and funny faces. ** Poor Sam. On his wedding day of all days, his left ear becomes infected and gangrenous. Anyone else unable to stop staring at his suddenly, horribly, green and purple bruised-cabbage-leaf of an ear? (You are now! Ha!) Did Weta run out of the good latex? ** And finally, Bilbo's ancient make-up. Along with Lumpy, too much of a good idea. The one other time I see mask, not character. Maybe because Ian Holm is so familiar, but probably because he doesn't look old, but swollen. I like the hairstyle (um, did I just say I like Bilbo's hairstyle..?) so wouldn't the bald cap and wig, and a few touches more of what was done in Rivendell, have been enough? It's so much mask it seems to actually hinder Holm's performance; his voice work is impeccable, and he's clearly doing touching work UNDER there, but there's barely enough room for a twinkle from his eye to squeeze out through the rubber. *** OKAY, THAT OUGHTA DO IT FOR NOW! And just think, I barely touched on any of the Adaptation Bitches I have! And just THINK, it's STILL one of the greatest movies I've ever seen! And JUST THINK, I'll probably be seeing it a dozen more times at full price! And UNCOUNTABLE times on DVD. And sitting bolt upright in places all over again, and gasping at times all over again, and not blinking for unhealthy stretches all over again, and lumping up in the throat a half-dozen times and for most of the last half-hour, all, over, again. HOOOO-WEEEE. What a fracking MOVIE! I love it I love it I love it. *** Well, this has certainly been enough of a reindoctrination into the TE, so I'll leave my adaptation complaints to unfold in normal conversation, instead of this long-winded Holding Forth. So, just like the good old dys... "Where will this end up?" *** And what are these rumors of a FIVE HOUR SEE...!? Long debunked? Or still teasing us?
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Good grief, Runelord, stop with the archeology already! "Nobody does ninny like"..! *grumble!* *fuss!* Pay no heed to that, young tailenders! ;)
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Sorry I
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Jan 06, 2004 4:16:31 PM CST
"HOOOOOOOOOOOSE-A-RAMA where the wind comes sweepin down the pla
by pallando blue
Holy frijoles this place is a MESS! It's friggin impossible to figure out who said what when or why! The best I've been able to catch up on is, I am waaaaay behind in the conversation, numbingly redundant, and should just shut up and pay attention for a day or two to sync up; a troll's been banned (nice 'un, FG!); and Elaine too soon is leaving us. Aw, nuts! Was it all the off-color Dutch jokes? morGoth, Miami, apologize! *sniffle* I feel I've been negligent, we should have had more time together.... ahehehem ["oh crap he's gonna sing!" "take cover!" "tape the windows!" "hide the pets!" "batten all hatches!" "dive! dive!"] Oh ELAAAAAINE, you CAME and you GAVE without TAAAAAAKIIIIIIING....
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Jan 06, 2004 4:43:20 PM CST
And a how-do, back, tusker! Don't worry, the Complaint Dept. is
by pallando blue
Yeah, got it all out of my system. Like I said at the outset it was mainly to counterbalance my admittedly stuffy "WHO DARES QUESTION THE RETURN OF THE KING" stomp-off pre-Xmas. And believe me, such a rattling off would have been impossible until after, say, viewing 4. (Although Sam's ear DID jump out at me Trilogy Tuesday, heh.) Plus, I know my well-earned rep as Head Whore And Lead Cheerleader Of All Things PJ, figured that needed some Fair and Balancing too. (Anyone wanna see my bitch-lists for Fellowship? TE and EE? they're LONGER! and yet still I love...) Because my oh me am I ready to go ahead and defend almost anything folx wanna toss my way. ;) ...Funny, you know, not before your post just now did I consider Lump's deformities as NFM-kinda-related. I'd always taken them as some kind of result of previous injury, some crippling, burning battle-related incident that's he overcome. I dunno, crushed under a tipped vat of boiling oil or something. Not that I ever thought too much about it, just assumed it as a case of previous trauma, not as a... disease? Is that the word? Anyway, interesting take, and more I think on it probably more to what they intended (I wonder if I can find a Lumpy reference in Cinefex or the Art Of book...). Either way, He and Bilbo are pretty much Weta Workshop's only eff-ups, as I said. Not a bad batting average, but unfortunate to be for such prominent characters. *** Now then, if ROTK doesn't sweep the Oscars, where do we start the fires? None of the voters, I'm sure, actually live IN Hollywood. So, Brentwood? Beverly Hills? Who gets the torch first?
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http://www.theonering.net/ perl/newsview/8/1073450617 ----- I want more Denethor! John Noble is great! I may well cry the next time I watch him in action. To love Denethor (the character) and to hate what he does, how great is that? ---- But dang it all, all these blue eyed people. How many blue or part blue scarves can I make before they become redundant! (I've finished 4, btw).
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I hope so, this is really confusing! Oh, folks, I've just made a Live Journal for myself. It isn't terribly interesting as I've nothing to say without someone else as a catalyst. BUT, if'n y'ever want to drop me a line, that's an easy place. I'm djinnj there, like here. ---- Oh, and I took the Which Dysfunctional LotR Character Are You test, and came up Pippin! heh heh heh....
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Jan 07, 2004 7:39:39 AM CST
I have no idea where this is going to end up, and moreover I sho
by elaine
Aw, you guys are mean! I come up with a good, time-saving and oh-so-necessary New Year's resolution, and what do you do? Make me reconsider it. As if I were a smoker trying desperately to quit and you're my chain-smoking peers, wordlessly handing me cigarettes against your and my better knowledge. What does that make you? Enablers? Yes, enablers. [Cue Gollum voice:] Filthy little hobbitses! [Cut back to Elaine, smiling beatifically:] But anyway, now that I've embraced my addiction and declared at least one of my New Year's resolutions void (Yes! That's the ticket! Come to terms with your wicked self and embrace evil! "It would be wise, my friend!"), I'll say this... **** Welcome back, Pallando! Am I right in assuming that that deliciously off-kilter mind of yours must have got hyperactive at some point during your absence and come up with some good rhymes? If so, is there anything you'd like to share with us, other than criticism of the film? Now that Alice doesn't seem to be around anymore, the time might be right for some, er, LIMERICKS... **** I completely agree with you about Frodo's fake laughter in the reunion scene. It does ring false. Which is a pity, as the Gandalf smile that preceeds it is absolutely gob-smackingly beautiful. One of the most heart-breaking moments in the film. **** After four viewings I've reached the point where I've grown used to the scenes that used to bother me and grown pleasantly indifferent to them. Neither the Denethor eating scene nor the "Well, I'm back" ending make me groan anymore, although I would still prefer the film to end with the Grey Havens scene. I stand by my criticism of the close-ups, though. There are FAR too many close-ups in the film, and a few too many slo-mo scenes. Furthermore, some of the CGI remains an eyesore, no matter how forgiving I'm growing to be. It's as if the CGI team spent so much time on Gollum and Shelob (who exceeded my wildest expectations) that they only had two weeks left to do the Dwimorberg, the Army of the Dead, the Eye of Sauron and the Palantir, which suffer by comparison. What a dreadful waste of such brilliant material. **** A few miscellaneous points: Elanor, if Eldarion has Elvish ears (which I doubt), you can't tell. His thick, long tresses are in the way. I did notice, however, that the name of the boy who plays Eldarion is Sadwyn. Doesn't that have a wonderfully Tolkienesque ring to it? **** Since we're talking ears, anyway - I just noticed what lovely hobbits' ears Smeagol and Deagol have. I hadn't noticed Sam's ugly wedding ear yet but will keep an eye open for it next time I see the film. Although on second thoughts, I probably shouldn't. **** Since someone (I forget who) was asking about this: no, Eowyn doesn't wear a sling at the coronation/wedding, so either her wound isn't too bad or Aragorn is an even more amazing healer in the film than he is in the book. Or perhaps the film-makers just thought a sling would look absurdly out of place amidst all the festivities and gorgeous costumes, which I suppose it would. **** Did anyone else notice how undamaged Minas Tirith looks during the coronation scene? I mean, those catapults (my favourite orc line delivery: "Ca-ta-pults!") inflict HUGE damage on the buildings, but in the few bird's-eye shots you get of the city just before and after the coronation scene, everything seems to be perfectly in order. No sign of damage whatsoever. Straaaaange. **** Cutest moment (other than a handful of sweet Pippin moments): Arwen giggling and hugging Aragorn. Awwww! **** Favourite Andy Serkis line delivery: "Smeagol hates nasty hobbitses." Makes me laugh out loud every time I hear it. **** Most "Matrix"-like moment: Hugo Weaving slipping back into Agent Smith mode during his delivery of the "There are those who dwell in the mountain" line. Funny stuff. **** Most swoon-worthy moment: Faramir on the pyre. Hmmmm, yes. More of that in the EE, please. **** Greatest hair-dresser's blunder: tying Aragorn's hair at the back. What were they thinking? We wants flee-flowing tresses! The greasier, the better! **** Nicest unnecessary little touch: having the four hobbits wear their Elvish cloaks during the Grey Havens scene. The last hint at their Fellowship past, which somehow moves me. **** Most incomprehensible review: a British article in which the reviewer (who was NOT in jest) said something to the effect of, "And then, to waste even more precious time, Jackson gives us a two-minute beacon-lighting scene that should not have taken more than ten seconds." HUH? **** Question: what is the inscription on Anduril? If I remember correctly, in the book, Galadriel says something about the sheath she gives Aragorn bearing the name and background of the sword, but what is written on the sword itself?
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DJINNJ: I take it you noticed the gingerbread Meduseld photos over on TORN? Isn't it time you sent them some pictures of your own artwork? You'd cut a dashing figure, I'm sure. **** Judging from the stuff he's been wearing at public appearances lately, Billy Boyd favours dark colours, especially black. How about a black scarf for our favourite "Return of the King" hobbit? **** Did you get my e-mail with the PJ question? **** SABSTER: Surely the "Spoilerfreier" thing wasn't THAT impressive? In any case, it wasn't to me. The word "freier" exists in Dutch as well as German, although we spell it "vrijer". **** Just in case you find yourself wondering how I became aware of the German word "Freier", though, I learned it from Christiane F's "Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo", where it is of course used in a "trick" or "prostitute's customer" sense rather than the "suitor" sense the dictionary provides (which is, incidentally, the only meaning the word has in Dutch). "Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo" had a profound influence on my German when I was a teenager. For years, I could hardly order a sandwich in German, but I did know all sorts of weird 1970s junkie and prostitution slang. Funnily enough, I now see the same thing (albeit in a slightly more elegant guise) happening to my LotR-mad cousin, who is nine years my junior. Her English isn't too good, but thanks to the films, which she has seen more times than I have, she now knows words such as "cast" (as in "Cast it into the fire!") and "innards" ("I'm going to rip out your filthy little innards"), not to mention heaps of weirdly formal and old-fashioned expressions. Can you imagine learning your English from LotR? Wonderful, isn't it? **** I read the article about the Swedish translation of "The Lord of the Rings" on TORN, and was startled to learn that "Baggins" translates as "Bagger" in Swedish. The reason I find this shocking is that in Dutch, "bagger" means "mud", hence "rubbish". And call me a purist, but "Frodo Rubbish" doesn't sound right to me. **** How is Viggo Mortensen's Danish? **** One last anecdote about the aforementioned LotR-mad cousin, whose name is Kathelijne: she now has a boyfriend called Taco (which was a popular name here in Holland long before Mexican food ever became de rigueur), who likes the films a lot, too, and as a tribute to Tolkien and Jackson they've decided to call themselves "Kathadriel" and "Tacomir" from now on. How's that for obsessive fan behaviour?
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Jan 07, 2004 8:25:13 AM CST
And finally, because I seem to have forgotten it in my first pos
by elaine
... the weirdest accent in the film (hell, the weirdest accent of all three films combined!) would have to be Viggo Mortensen's "Let the looooord of the laaaaand come fooooorward", which makes me giggle every time I hear it. How did such a redneck accent ever make it into the film? Couldn't they have let him dub it or something?
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Jan 07, 2004 9:01:19 AM CST
Hi Elaine! (and everyone else I was rude enough to not acknowled
by djinnj
I didn't get an email from you. Resend it? Or post it here or somewhere on my brand spanking new Live Journal. I check both incessantly. ---- I was thinking of something in either smokey greens or oceany greens and blues for the youngest of the hobbits/oldest of the hobbit actors. I don't want to make anything reminiscent of his scarf in the film, but his eyes are green, so it seems to follow that that color would be a good choice. I wonder if that's why they gave him a green scarf, actually.... ---- Regarding sending TORn pics of my baking. Well, I dunno, it seems self-aggrandizing somehow. On the other hand (speaking of self aggrandizing), TORn posted a note that VH1 is looking for obsessed fans for something or another, and I sent in some pics. Doubt I'll get a reply, not entirely sure I want one (VH1? not my demographic anymore), but what the hey! ---- Regarding Minas Tirith? I figured Gimli's folk had come and helped rebuild, but yes, some residual damage would've been nice (not that I've looked that closely). Eowyn's arm having healed in time for the coronation doesn't strike me as odd. And, even though it wouldn't have taken that long to grow, Aragorn's beard is definitely a statement at the coronation. Time has passed! I think the fade to black portions are meant to indicate not just time passing, but that an increasingly substantial period of time has passed with each, backing us out of the events of the film. Going by the book, S&F getting rescued couldn't have taken that long, but waking up took 2 weeks, and the coronation required a whole lot of mop up beforehand, and the return to the Shire took almost 6 months, and then there's 4 years and Frodo takes the ship. Actually, that's one of the reasons why I think the fades are so long, to give that sense of passing time. And, the more I think about them the more I like them. Unexpected the first time they happen, but sitting there with nothing but black screen is a potent indication that we're no longer 'in' the story, that we can't have that sort of closeness with the characters anymore. Of course, they've done similar things before on these films. Notably Galadriel's voice over at the beginning of Fellowship, and the same sort of fades bringing us up to date on the importance of the Ring and some of the back story. I don't think they were as long as the ones at the end of RotK, though. Or perhaps the voice over obscures their relative length. Speaking from a narratological point of view, it's a very elegant little structural conceit. ---- You know that flipped shot everyone's griping about? The one with Eowyn in front of Meduseld? I don't find the smoke bothersome at all. The camera angle shifts during the shot, so I just accept that as the reason the smoke 'seems' to be going back into the chimneys. I only looked close enough last time to confirm that I could hold onto that illusion. And regarding Sam's cauliflower ear? I'm NOT LISTENING! :)
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Hullo all, and thankee kindly djinnj for the unhosery! Now, about your questions for PJ. I think he'll probably get a fair share of rude purist griping about what
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Jan 07, 2004 10:12:40 AM CST
Wow, are you guys all hanging out on an unhosed TB?! It can't la
by raw_bean
How's everyone doing in 2004? Good to see you all! Sorry for my long absence, hardly touched the internet during the holiday period (and I didn't even make it a resolution, or anything. ;) Sorry Elaine. Whilst I would never have tried to coerce you back into posting, when I eventually get round to answering my email, I can safely say I'm very glad you've caved in.). In my defence, since my little sister came home from college, she's been using the 'net everyday day from about 6pm throught to about 4am, which USED to be MY time period for obsessive internet use! ------- I noticed on a quick scroll through that mortsleam and Pallando have popped back up for a chat, great! I just hope you'll all hang around a bit so I can catch up with you all, and try and get momentum back up for Club Angband. What, did you think I'd forgotten? Or given up? Hell no! :)
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Jan 07, 2004 10:26:41 AM CST
College? I meant University. Unless you're American, in which ca
by raw_bean
Anyway, since TORn haven't posted it, I'll give djinnj a lesson in self-aggrandisement, by showing off to you lot the as yet un-reported (as far as I'm aware) cameo I spotted in ROTK. Pay close attention during the coronation of Ellessar, and you'll see an Elven lady stood behind Arwen's right shoulder, as though she's waiting on her (as in a servant). This Elf, of a similar height and build to Liv Tyler, with the same colour hair as Arwen, is none other than Jane Abbott, stunt riding double for Liv during the Flight To The Ford sequence in FOTR. On the FOTR EE second Appendix disk, during the featurette, 'Cameras in Middle Earth', fast forward till you get to the bit about the FttF sequence, and there's a short interview with her. I saw her during my second ROTK viewing, double checked in my third viewing, then checked my FOTR EE DVD for her name. Whether it's not been received, not been read, not been believed, or just deemed not newsworthy, TORn has not reported my earth shattering discovery, which somewhat deflated my geeky fanboy ego.
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I'm collecting 'em all! ---- Raw-bean, the way to get noticed with your geeky observations on TORn is to post it on one of the discussion boards. Someone called gammaboodawg or some such collects them all into a master list, and TORn eventually posts the whole thing on their main page. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for her the next time I go....
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Elaine, you thought Aragorn's accent at the Black Gate was funny? I was somewhat distressed with how Eomer sounded when he said "Riders of Rohan! Oaths you have taken, to lord, and land. Now fulfill them all!". Why was I upset? Have any of you ever played the computer game Warcraft II? -------- Since my elder sister ruined the moment for me before my third ROTK viewing, I feel obliged to spitefully pass it on: when Theoden is dying, and he says "My body is broken...", my elder sister tried to keep from giggling uncontrollably in the cinema, because SHE heard "My POTTY is broken, you must let me go!". When my younger sister and I went to see the film again, we had to stifle the laughter, which was not easy, let me tell you. I was spasming so uncontrollably, I made a conscious effort to make it look like I was choking back sobs and tears at the sadness of the moment, just so I didn't get lynched by some annoyed LOTR fan! I think I'll have to watch the film sometime and just give in to the hilarity of it (the image of a poor old man with a cracked bedpan and a domineering nursemaid who won't let him 'tire himself out' with a trip to the bathroom fits too perfectly: "My potty is broken, you must let me go!" - if I was a cartoonist I'd have to commit it to paper), if I let the giggles take me completely, maybe I can get it out of my system, and feel the appropriate emotions on my fifth viewing.
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When are you going to see it again? I want confirmation! There's geek-cred at stake! :)
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"Oh, that's your solution for everything." "Do you have a better idea?" "Oh no, I'm no big Witch-king, what do I know." "There's just no satisfying you, is there?" "Well excuuuse me for not wanting to break everybody." "I can't believe we're having this conversation again." "I just think you overreact sometimes, that's all." "Fine, how about we just break her New Year's resolution then." "Whatever. You know what? Just break whatever the hell you want." "Lumpy, where are you going? Don't walk away mad like that! Lumpy! Let's talk..!" *** Welp, going back for ROTK #6 Friday most likely, so perhaps some poetic inspiration may strike over the weekend... You know, I've only done the one PJ/FW/PB commentary on T2T? Such a poor fan am I! They just HAVE to release these things in the middle of football season. *** I didn't bring my Cinefex in with me to work, so quoting is by (poor) memory, but mort ol' pal your assessment of the Lumper's "condition" is pretty much dead on, and it's at PJ's feet. One of the Weta Workshop fellows was discussing the new, militaristic and tougher Mordor orcs, and how for some PJ came up with adding "tumors." Especially for Gothmog (Official Name(c)). The Workshop guys thought they had him looking plenty ugly, but PJ literally took another glob of clay, slapped it on the model's face and said, "Make him look like the Elephant Man!" Yee-yeesh. So, you're even righter than you knew. Maybe I'll skip ahead and see if PJ saw the Ancient Bilbo design, slapped another glob of clay on it and said "Make him look like a pencil eraser!" *** Okay, enough of my mockery. Because honestly, despite the extent of my babbling, not a one thing I babbled on about lessens the film for me unless I let it, and most of them I'd never have even been niggled by until after multiple viewings. The curse of the rabid fan with a scrutinous eye! ...And after 5 shows I STILL can't wait to see it again. But, next week, I've vowed to catch up with the rest of cinema. A different, non-LOTR movie every night for a week, Monday to Monday. That oughta do it. Then, Tuesday, I dunno, maybe #7. :) *** Hey, I'll be at the Lincoln Center too! Feel free to throw me some questions also, cause without direction I'll probably just crawl onto the stage and kiss his nasty bare toes for the course of the Q&A period. If Fran or Philippa show up I'll make sure to freely distribute the footbaths among them. (Though Ms. Boyens may get more attention...) Ha! I'm going to be a mumbling pratfalling drooling gape-mouthed giggling idiot, to be sure. It'll be Pallando Blue doing Chris Farley. "Remember? When the bow guy? Killed the elephant? ...That was cool." [sits down again, looking for a high-five from mortified djinnj] If any of the female cast members show up..? Whoo-ee. Look out! Lobby: [spits in palm, slicks back hair] "So, Ms. Otto. Miranda? Miranda, then. This thing you've got with that guy. Is it serious? ...Officer, I'm complying, there's no need to push."
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Not nearly as funny as "My potty is broken"--because of which the noise I just made trying to stifle MY spasmodic laughter garnered me at least one very odd look--but I still have to punch my knee at this line to keep from giggling. Smeagollum's puddle conversation, there's a moment when Smeagol clenches his fist and growls at it "It's ooooooouurs!" Unfortunately, the first time I saw it, before he got to the end of the word, the -rs, I thought he was saying "It's ooooooon!" As in, getting pumped for the fight. "Oh it's on now, muthafuckAAHH!" Again, chalk it up to Trilogy Tuesday numbheadedness, but now whenever I see that scene, in my head I'm thinking, "It's ooooooon! C'mon, fat hobbit, let's DANCE!"
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... now this is what I call a 'parper talkback'! Off the main page, and nothing but Tolkien geeks in attendence! *** Reprinted here for your dining and dancing pleasure, after viewing #5, my ROTK review from TORN: Call it dumbed down, Tolkien Lite, or: Tolkien for the masses if you must, but it doesn't matter. In my final analysis Jackson & Co get enough of the tale on screen in a sufficiently spectacular fashion for the tale's true strengths, themes, and even some of the more complex subtexts to shine through. New Line's LOTR trilogy is a juggernaut that gets enough of the spirit of the work across, the heart, the values of the characters, the sense of mythology, forgotten tales out of the deeps of time, that none of the charges of dumbing down the source material, creating a LOTR ala HOLLYWOOD, carry any weight whether they hold water or not, and some of them do, - hold water. The major arcs of the plot and events of the narrative survive pretty well intact. While some of the choices made in individual scenes, Pippin's looksee at the Palantir of Orthanc, and the details of Gollum's demise come to mind, that arguably result in a type of 'hollywoodization' - exaggerated - overwrought, may be abhorrent to a purist 'intelligencia' take on the material, especially when taken out of context or looked at as a disjointed adaptation of a particular scene, I say again: It doesn't matter. PJ's LOTR is cut from a whole piece of cloth; it is brave and relentless, if not entirely unapologetic in its execution of Wingnut's adaptation. Largely because of this fearlessness, combined with brilliant design work and amazing attention to detail, enough of the tale is conveyed with enough class and emotional impact that the nits we choose to pick are like gnats clinging to some behemoth: They don't break the spell. It all works; even the well deserved if somewhat dewy 'extended' denouement of the ending(s). These films could have been so bad, such worse Hollywood swill than the minor miracle we got. Not a miracle? Just consider this: Hobbits' average height is 3'6". I haven't seen one critique that says anything like "the size difference effect really messed with my suspension of disbelief". And the linchpin of the entire undertaking is of course: Gollum. Your Gollum doesn't work? Your whole LOTR falls apart. *** They got a lot more "right" than "wrong" folks. Truely a cinematic miracle. Hell it was a miracle it ever got maid much less didn't turn out to be a steaming turd.
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The roaring laughter I somehow managed to swallow could have alerted my boss to my non-work related internet usage (although as it's just gone 5pm here, my working day just finished, yay!). I'll have to get my Gollum chuckles out of my system at the same time as my Theoden giggles next time I see the film. ---------- Nice review, Moaters, I agree with much of what you said. Just not with your spellings of 'intelligentsia' and 'made'. ;) And I have got to applaud such wonderful mixed metaphors as something 'holding water but carrying no weight' - like some kind of flimsy paper bucket - and such colourful analogies as 'nits that are pointless to pick, as they are like gnats on some great behemoth'. An excellent review, like yours, entertains even as it informs. And I'm only half joking. :)
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He had it coming for ages. Ironically, whilst I remember a time when TBs went in date order 'till a banning hosed the order up, now it seems that a hosed TB is more or less the norm, and the banning of JonnySuede seems to have unhosed this one! See you later folks. :)
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...I didn't realize I was turning in a school essay or a cost analysis report. The nits we choose to pick indeed...
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Jan 07, 2004 12:35:09 PM CST
Well, that settles it. There are too many laughs on this talkbac
by elaine
In other words: let January 7 go down in history as the day Elaine got in touch with her inner Gollum and accepted the concept of addiction as part of her nature. She will not say, "Do not weep", for not all tears are an evil. Nope. Quite the contrary. **** Good to have you back, Raw Bean! Your potty story made me laugh very hard indeed. I don't think I'll ever be able to watch that scene again without your sister's words popping up in my head, which was of course your evil intention. Grrrr! **** Yes, I do find Aragorn's accent at the Black Gate hysterical, but I admit Eomer's "for lord and land" sounds pretty odd, too. Even to someone who never plays computer games and so doesn't know to what you were referring. **** DJINNJ: I'm certain that emerald green will look spectacular on our Billy, although I have to say I looooove the sight of him in stylish black. I have green eyes myself, and I've been told bottle green looks very good on me. Which isn't a hint, by the way. :-) Although, if you have time on your hands... which I know you don't... How are the papers coming along? **** I just had a look at the e-mail I wrote that you didn't receive, and I've decided not to resend it, as it was mostly a bunch of neurotic nonsense about why it would be better for me to stay away from AICN in general and from Tailender talkbacks in particular. Now that I've binned that particular resolution, it won't do to dwell on my reasons for taking it in the first place. Suffice it to say they were pretty, er, Gollum-like. Yup. Quite schizophrenic. **** Strangely enough, the smoke at Edoras doesn't bother me at all; in fact, I hadn't noticed it until I specifically looked for it, and it hasn't bothered me since. What I do mind, however, is that there is no close-up of Eowyn at that point - like, uhm, the still for which I have earlier professed my undying love. How could they leave that out? Elanor is right. PJ seems to take a malicious delight in giving us brilliant stills and trailer shots that never make it into the final film. Grrr again. **** Now that I've seen the film four times, I don't at all mind the long fades anymore. As you said, Djinnj, they're rather appropriate from a narratological perspective, in that they convey how much time passes before each new segment of the story. Yep, they definitely work for me now. **** I'll see the film one more time (with my newly read parents this time) next week, and after that I'm going to watch some sixty other films before I see it again. Which, amazingly enough, won't take me more than two weeks, although it'll probably take longer to recover. :-) **** MORT: LotR Trivial Pursuit? Oh, wow. You've just given me a great idea for Kathadriel's birthday. I can't believe I never came up with it before! **** My question to PJ for whoever gets to ask it (that Lincoln Center gig sounds like it's going to be a great Tailender moot!): was there ever a point at which he considered ending with the Grey Havens? The way that scene ends now (with the over-long Frodo close-up, the ship sailing away and the music swelling to that magnificent crescendo), it has such a marvellously ending-like quality to it that I wouldn't be surprised if, at one point, it was supposed to be the ending, riotting geeks and rampant Sam aficionadoes notwithstanding. Could you check that, please? Cheers. **** And with that, I impose a three-day ban on myself. I'll be back on the weekend, guys. See you later.
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Dammit Moaters, the MOST important thing about your fifth viewing was that we saw it together! Grumble
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...all of Johnny's post are gone! Ah well, just as we were getting on and everything. Still, he deserved a (shudder) banning.
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Oy, I've been such a bad girl, and classes start in a week and a half! ---- raw_bean! #3 today or tomorrow, whenever I finish this DAMN PAPER that wants to suck the life out of me through a straw!!! I have to get my nevvy a birthday present, which means I can cut the shackles tying me to my desk for a few hours. ---- Oh, it's good to see so many tailenders back. It feels like old home week, and I've not been a tailender that long! ---- Elaine, I've posted descriptions of my knitting on my LJ because I'm still procrastinating. The cryptic codes next to the descriptions should be comprehensible for those in the know! --- I haven't gotten used to the freedome of DSL after having a #$#&%$ dialup for so long. Tooo tempting to come here or go to everything2 (my other obsession) and do nothing but read and chat all day. So I entirely sympathize with the addiction metaphor as I've been dealing with my own! OK, I'm banning myself for 3 hours as well. Maybe that'll get me to the store and the theater TODAY! If'n I finish the paper....
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I still can't for the life of me think WHY Jackson chose to include ANY references to Arwen's fate being specifically (or even unspecifically, as some have argued)tied to the Ring, and all the theories so far (though excuse me if I've missed any by skimming) have ignored the worst thing about Elrond being so emphatic about the connection: it's so damned selfish! If Frodo doesn't destroy the Ring, EVERY member of the Free Peoples in Middle-earth is going to die, sooner rather than later, so why make such a point of Arwen's wasting illness (if that's what it is)? It's like Sam getting specifically upset that if they don't do this, ROSIE is going to die, never mind everyone else in the Shire, the Fellowship or the rest of Middle-earth, so by golly, we better destroy that Ring quick, Mr. Frodo! It never has made sense to me that Elrond would form the Council and appoint the Fellowship, and then behave as he does through the other two films, as if he would just as soon detach himself from the whole struggle, if some faint tug of honor or worry about Arwen didn't keep sucking him in. Question: Since he has personally delivered Anduril to Aragorn, WHERE IS ELROND during the ensuing battles? Couldn't they use a powerful Elf Lord rather desperately (and he's certainly not up north defending Rivendell)...? For that matter, where have they been keeping Bilbo through two films? In the dark of a mostly-abandoned Rivendell? In a nice hobbit room in Bree? Sometimes, the patchwork technique is missing a few squares.
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Jan 07, 2004 10:40:45 PM CST
I've been reading this TE TB so long all I see is a wheel of fir
by wall builder
Took me so long to read I was afraid to hit refresh. ****** potty? bring it on? good stuff. I still laugh at a poster's comments of the FOTR previews where he insisted Viggo had a lisp when he said "If by my life's orders I can save you, I will". Of course, he really said "if by my life or death I can..." But if you hear the life or death but think life's orders if comes out lispy. ******** "I must break you" what?, was that dolph lundgren as the WK? Rocky 4 anyone? ****** speaking of movie quotes, I vote for the LOTR stage version to have Lumpy say (as he stands over the fallen gondorian, ready to impale him again) "I take pleasure in gutt'n you boy!" ****** King Arthur fans here? seems there used to be ... or am I remembering sir mordred? anyway, saw a preview for K.A. yesterday. huh? preview to what movie? ummmmm okay, it was Paycheck, alright? Yes, I actually saw it. Yes, it was pretty stupid. No, I didn't have time to see ROTK instead. yes, seeing half of rotk would have been better, but I'm not ready to piece-meal it yet, okay? Done now? can we move on? ANYWAY - King Arthur looked like it 'might' be decent. 'specially with that 'beanpole' Keira knightly wearing another corset. On the battlefield. Doing what Arwen couldn't. (hey, I AM on topic. Someone above mentioned Liv Tyler's body double, made me think of Natalie Portmans double, Keira, and besides, she's in Pirates with Legolas, so there. oh, and while in this stream-of-thought uninteresting-suckiness mode (yes, I DO have another mode, thank you very much) Cap'n Jack Sparrow's final comments of "now that we have come to know one another personally, spiritually and ... ummmm... gramatically..." that line cracks me up. (yeah I butchered it). As this post is getting a bit weighty, like a sack full of behometh gnats that can't hold water, I must .... split it into thrices.
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Jan 07, 2004 10:48:47 PM CST
"... and orcses doesn't taste very good, does they precious?"
by wall builder
I came in just in time for a fresh hosing, it seems. ****** What was up with Gandalf's mascara smeared all over during the pyre of Denethor? Fires to hot? forgot to buy the anti-smudge kind? ****** And that moth. resourceful little bugger, aint he? beat the eagles back again, he did. **** Walls of Gondor. I didn't think their collapse from a boulder strange. Seemed about right, but what I wondered about was the sudden surprise from the civilians that they were under attack. They were hanging out the windows when it struck. In the book, hadn't they left the city for refuge already? ***** Frodo giggling. In FOTR wondered what in the world was so funny. By ROTK I expected it.
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Jan 07, 2004 10:53:26 PM CST
hey, I can keep this up all day, you hosed-out beee-yotch!
by wall builder
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Jan 07, 2004 10:55:48 PM CST
hey, I can keep this up all day, you hosed-out beee-yotch!
by wall builder
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I stopped by my favorite gallery tonight - the Tim Cantor Gallery, in San Diego's Gaslamp Quarter - and talked to Tim's wife, Amy, who manages the gallery. They had finally been to ROTK last night and LOVED it. Amy said she cried through the whole thing, and was too overwhelmed to sort out her thoughts. She also said she kept thinking about me while she was watching it! ***Still in shock about that one critic not liking the beacons. How can anyone not love the beacons? If you loved nothing else in the whole film, you must love the beacons! I'll bet even David Elliott liked the beacons, if he could be brought to admit it! (There were three MORE anti-Elliott letters in the Sunday paper, and still not mine. Sniff.)
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Unhosed at Last! (as the wizard said to the shield-maiden)******morGoth, I took Arwen
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For every tailender who joins Club Angband (whenever it's up and running raw_bean, no hurry!) in the first week of its existence! How's that, Elaine? I'd probably knit for latecomers too, but better to put a limit on it at first!
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I think I would have preferred Elrond to stay and help "the men of the West" (his kin from afar)and it would have been a nice link back to the Last Alliance, but I figure Elrond just went back to taking care of 'ole' Arwen. Rode a couple of thousand of miles, there and back again (by himself), delivered The Sword, reminded Aragorn of the paths of the dead and then went home. It would have taken him so long to get back to Rivendell that he would have been better off staying and helping aragorn win the war and then his daughter would have gotten better in a shorter time period (according to the movie storyline). I guess he didn't really think that the Men of the West would win though. Anyway who am I to tell Elrond what he should have done? Cheers.
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Sorry about the re-hosing. Cheers.
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And good to see you again, most assimilated of Tailenders. Taking up Dune again? Good idea, I was thinking of giving it a reread myself. Trouble is, there's one more Legends of Dune book to come out quite soon, so I'm stalling in the hope of reading the Legends series in full, then the Prelude to Dune series, and then, if I take long enough reading the series proper, Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson might finish the final Dune book that ends the series so I can read that. ------------ I'd love to join in the Wolves of the Calla discussion, but the shockingly extortionate price of the hardback edition has so far kept me from reading it. I'm gonna have to wait for the paperback, I think. :( ------------ Quick poll: what was the most wonderful nod-to-the-fans, geeky, over-the-heads-of-the-heads-of-the-general-populace moment in ROTK? Some examples: Everyone in Gondor calls Gandalf 'Mithrandir' with no explanations, Arwen reciting part of Bilbo's poem about Aragorn when she takes Narsil for its reforging, Elrond and Aragorn reciting Gilraen's words about giving hope to Men and keeping none for herself, Pippin singing one of Bilbo's walking songs to Denethor, Aragorn singing Elendil's words, from when he arrived in Middle Earth from Numenor, at his coronation, Frodo saying 'Aiya Earendil, elenion(?) Ancalimar' when he gets out Galadriel's phial, or any others you can think of.
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I've found your post on Lumpy here mortsleam, and one thing I thought about him that might make you see his look in a different light. The malformed side of his head bares a striking resemblance to the aliens from PJ's first film, Bad Taste. If it's a deliberate nod, then that might have more to do with the way he looks than the notion of making him ugly to make him villainous.
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And remember, you
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Jan 08, 2004 9:25:49 AM CST
GOO-GOO g'JOOB!!! Heya, didja notice me, here wherever the hose
by mortsleam
mment was supposed to be. Oh yeah, it was about the hosing itself. This is the last time I'll try to explain it, so that NOONE ever thinks that for any reason they were responsible for a hosing again. Here goes: Whenever someone is banned, all of their posts are deleted. This causes a hiccup in the code ACROSS EVERY TALKBACK. In the most recent instance, a jerkwad loser named The Super Nova had a hissy fit in the Talkback League of @$$holes article at the top of the page. It was his fault, and his fault only. It is not the fault of whomsoever posts "frist" after a hosing event takes place. That person (in this instance the unfortunate ingollum/smeagold) is merely the victim of the hosing process, not the instigator. Although, to be fair, there's a good chance that Wall Builder could be banned for his multiple blank posts. Or at least, those multiple posts could be deleted without his getting banned. In that event, the ensuing code hiccup would result in another hosing, at which point it would in fact be entirely his fault. So way to go, Ingold, you hosing bastard you! (;{= Hope this helps.
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I really hope they clear up this Arwen/Ring mess-up in the SEE, either through some extended scenes or at least some explanation in the commentary. Having said that, I have to admit that the big WTF at my first viewing was mingled with a somewhat grim sense of satisfaction, because remember last autumn, when rumours about the
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Thanks for the hose explanation, mortsleam. By the way, your story of Strawberry
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Jan 08, 2004 11:10:20 AM CST
GREETINGS FROM LAS VEGAS AND THE 2004 INTERNATIONAL CONSUMER ELE
by miami mofo
So many things, so little time. First, djinnj, elanor and Pallando: have a great time this weekend at Lincoln Center. My "real" question (as oppossed to my fake question I e-mailed elanor) is, How long DOES it take to ride from Dunharrow to Minas Tirith? When Gandalf rides from Edoras with Pippin, he says that it will take three days, which I have no problem with. Then, when the Host finally departs from Dunharrow, Theoden tells Merry that he can't come because it will be a hard three days ride. Again, no problem. However, while attending my fourth viewing last Friday, it sure seemed to me that the Rohirrim arrived at the Pelennor the very next morning. Thus I am confused. As for my "fake" question which no other tailenders except elanor and Pallando know about, that one was, When Frodo is lying shirtless and filthy in Cirith Ungol, how come there wasn't a flashback to Rivendell with Frodo taking a bath with Arwen as per my version of The Bath Song? P.J. blew it here, I'm afraid. Hope it's included in the SEE, cause if it's not, I'm afraid that I will have to withdraw my support for this whole project!!!!!!!!! :~) ***Re Lumpy, now you know what happens when you take a bath in water from the Morgul vale. Might as well take a chemical bath. ***You're very welcome Xyzan. [Did I really send you a mammoth? And to think that something that big only cost US$2.40 to mail.] ***DoT, next time you see the Cantors, please tell them how much I like the card you sent. ***Pallando, re football: I watched those NFL playoff games last weekend with the sound off and Howard Shore's LotR soundtracks playing on the stereo. It was great. Try it, you'll like it. ***Finally, had to laugh when I saw The Little White Wedding Chapel on the Strip yesterday. [I actually went to a wedding there about ten years ago -- truly bizzare.] Poor Britney. NOT. Meanwhile, I understand that while I'm here, she's in Miami shooting a video in the Design District. ***And speaking of Miami and TV, if you get the chance, watch some of Animal Planet's new show at 10 PM about our Animal Services Dept. This is not just a regular dog and cat show. ***Once again, have fun at L.C., d, e and PB.
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I told Amy Cantor last night how much you liked the card, and she was thrilled and is going to tell Tim. They are such nice people.... Just wish I had the $6800 for the oil painting I covet, called "Ivy," which is a ridiculously prosaic title for a painting that to me evokes eternity, healing and Middle-earth. Amy says I've put my mojo on it, because it's been in the gallery for over a year and despite much admiration, no one has bought it.
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.... have given RotK the Thumbs Up! The fine detail can be savoured at www.glyphweb.com/ arda/ (remove space before arda).
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but ... but ... but... I was just trying to unhose it. Er, wait, I really meant to say: Harry ban me? Ban ME? C'mon fat-boy, bring it on! I'm getting tired of this handle anyway. ******* as for the ingollum hosing - where was that? please post url. tia.
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I'm glad your here with me, at the bottom of all hosings.
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Quote the movie? ummmm, guilty as charged. Except I do it oft and to excess. (any movie, not just lotr) Most think I am quite insane, and that I obviously have too much time on my hands to remember movie quotes. I simply say it is the "bane of my existence" that I actually PAY ATTENTION during a movie. (btw - can anyone name that quote - bane of my existence - ? hint= natalie portman.) As for LOTR quotes, I quote much, but most often something like: whenever giving something to someone "It's made by elves, you know"; or when time to go "we must not linger here"; something falls "not idly do the leaves of lorien fall"; then of course the versatile "fool of a took!". I've said your "no memory..." also. And of course, we cannot eat potatoes EVER without even the little ones chiming "what's tater hobbit?... Po-Ta-TOES!".
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looked at your ivy picture online. I'd like to see how it shows in real life. Kinda got that Oathbreakers green thing going on. ***** BTW - you ever break your writers block? I'll tell you what did it for me last week - the book recently published by the 15yr old from Montana. Eragon. 100 pages from that nitwit can convince anyone to write, as everything else in comparison is pure genius. Actually, I only say that begrudgingly because he did what I could not (lotr quote, sabster?) - he actually finished writing a book and got it published. I give him Kudos galore for that. However, for those of you that actually find this post down here, this book is by a kid (bright, albeit) that wrote a fantasy book at 15. His gaffer self-published it, then peddled it around town (states) for a year or 2. Sold 10,000 copies. A youngster on vacation with his grandfather (who just happened to be a publisher) picked it up, and the rest, as they say, is history. A two-book contract and $500,000 advance. You can now find about a hundred copies in every bookstore in the country. HOWEVER - although I realize it is hard to write completely original fantasy, I think the author could have avoided a few, how shall we say, BLATANT ripoffs (tho perhaps accidental). For example. He has elves. Tall. shimmering. came to the land from the west. over the sea. on silvery ships. have magic. live forever. graceful. title character name is Eragon. has character named after ingold, kinda: ingothold. That might not seem too close, but it's the only one I can remember out of several LOTR names that seemed to be slightly changed. Dwarves. in mountains. diggers. The list goes on and on, down from the book where it began. A bunch from wheel of time, also. Actually I still give the kid credit, he actually finished writing a book, and got it published. More than I can say...
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ok, let me get this straight - you are stalking Britney Spears? Well.... okay. **** Hey, I never got a mammoth! but make mine an oliphant. big as a house, grey as a mouse....
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did you get that ragingbull.com suggestion I posted?
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Jan 08, 2004 3:49:37 PM CST
Shut The Hell Up You Stupid Fat Loser Grossly Overweight Unemplo
by pallando blue
So you see, mort ol' chum, there's more than one way to get a post noticed in a hosified TB. :~D *** Now, DoT, don't be silly. That's not a character inconsistency, that Elrond's ARC. Haven't you been paying attention? ;) *** ohthecutestofborgthateverbeenborg, yes indeed I finished Wolves a couple weeks ago! And I'm with ya on the wrap-up... I actually started wondering if he was going to "go there" way back when Jake saw, um, hell I don't want to say. I just can't figure out how oblique I can be without making GROSS spoilers. Beanster, you sure you can wait until this summer? I mean, DT6 is going to be staring at you on the shelf right next to the Wolves paperback. Torture! *** Also rawness, speaking of nice ROTK bits probably lost on the Great Unwash- er, -read, I often wonder how many clap and cheer at "And that's for me Ol' Gaffer!" before asking... "Who?" "I...think that's the guy who tapes down all the electrical cords around the film shoot." "I thought that was the Best Boy." "No, he hauls stuff." "No, that's the Grip." "Who?" Unless, of course, the FOTR EE is fresh in their head, and Frodo's one line as he hands the Gaffer his beer (yet rudely ignores the Best Boy).
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Jan 08, 2004 3:56:28 PM CST
And of course, mortsleam, there's also the Ingold Approach
by pallando blue
Another effective means to have yourself found in TB hosery, merely Build a Wall of posts. Bravo! :)
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I just meant that your post seemed to be the first that demonstrated the symptoms of hosery, which might lead some to conclude that it was your fault. Although true to your Wall Building status, you seem to have fixed things. Unless this post winds up somewhere strange...
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n/t.
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See there, Sabster? There's one right there. And I can't tell you how many times my left knee has nearly given out and I've said, "That wound will never fully heal." But I'm with Ingold here, as I tend to constantly, uncontrollably recite snippets of movie dialog from multiple sources. Sometimes I'll even sneak in a fake one, such as: "Shut the fuck up, Pippin!"
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Although I think the insane frame-by-frame comparisons at tolkienonline are more entertaining. But I've just decided to adopt Arda's final summation of these movies as my own: "It seems appropriate to end with a word of acknowledgement of Peter Jackson and everyone else associated with the movie version of The Lord of the Rings. Though of course they haven't come close to the scope and intricacy of the original story - that would be quite impossible - what they have produced is still nothing less than a masterpiece. The film-makers, and of course Peter Jackson in particular, have to be admired for having the courage to merely take on such an immense challenge, let alone to produce such an exceptional result. The complete story of The Lord of Rings is probably unfilmable, but Peter Jackson has come closer than anyone could have imagined possible." Indeed. I now hereby formally withdraw from any further makeup nitpicking, battlefield plothole skewering or purist grumbling.
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Jan 08, 2004 6:21:19 PM CST
This hosing is REALLY beginning to GET ON MY NERVES! It's got to
by raw_bean
And relax..... Sorry Ingold/Wall Builder, I don't remember reading anything from you about ragingbull.com. I've had a quick look; financial message boards. I can only assume you were perhaps suggesting I look at them for an example of how to do message boards properly? --------- Pallando, how could I miss the reference to old Hamfast Gamgee! ---------- MorG, thanks for the reminder about the TB hosing, but I was quite aware of what causes it. What baffles me is HOW. As a web developer, I wouldn't have the first idea how to write a message board where the deleting of posts would have such a bizarre effect on the ordering of all subsequent posts. I don't think I could achieve a system this spectacularly bad if I TRIED. Trust me on this, I've been thinking it over in preparation for the creation of Club Angband, and a system of simple text messages presented in date order is very, very straightforward.
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Jan 08, 2004 7:31:17 PM CST
You want "cultural pervasiveness of LOTR"? I got yer "cultural p
by pallando blue
[I'm telling you all, as one of the long-timers left around here I gotta say that this is really turning into one champeen of a hose-up. I mean, this is EPIC! One for the ages.... sigh] *** Anyway, back on topic. Myself and the rest of my city (and maybe morG? and Moaters?) have been quite delirious the past 48 hours with the still-not-quite-believable news that Joe "God" Gibbs is returning to coach our, and His, beloved NFL football team. We are giddy and quivery like hasn't happened since it became evident that PJ et al. "weren't going to fuck it up." :) Seriously, go over to www.espn.go.com and read a couple commentaries from writers familiar with DC and our 'Skins (skip Pasquarelli). This city, not just us football geeks, is swimming in joy. It's DC's one unifying "thing" top to bottom, knowing no boundaries of race or class or (I swear) gender, and now there's a chance of it being Great once again. Anyway, now that I lost all the sports-apathetic, I just wanted to share that the banner headline across the entire Sports page, in what I'm thinking is at least 40-pt. type, is simply "The Return of the King" ...I'm telling you, when I saw that I got a lump in my throat on SO MANY levels. :) Okay, so it's an obvious allusion, and headline editors are notoriously glib and punny (though this isn't a pun). But also consider that in sitcom-writer-level stereotype-land, what realm is most likely to scoff at, for crying out loud, a TOLKIEN reference? Hmmmm... SPORTS? But, whatever, it's just referencing a big movie out right now (and "Cheaper By The Dozen" or "Cold Mountain" aren't so apropos). Then I found this. Along with the big Front Page A1 story (on top of the dozen Sports section articles beneath the banner headline) there's also a opinion-of-Gibbs'-peers-and-locals piece on the front page of the Style section (no kidding--in this town, Jesus landing a UFO in the Rose Garden to share a great new all-natural weight-reduction/bald-cure/virility dietary regimen wouldn't be nearly as newsworthy in this city as Gibbs returning to coach the 'Skins). [(peers up for a second)...Okay, now THAT was an interesting sentence...] Somewhere in the middle of this Style piece is a jokey reference to "the return of the king, er, coach" which is cute enough, and so offhand that it's assumed familiarity is nicely evident. But the following, no kidding, no lie, is the word-for-word OPENING paragraph of the article, right there, above the fold, plain as day and twice as pretty: "As word spread yesterday that Joe Gibbs was returning as head coach of the Redskins, it was like a decade-long dark cloud had lifted, as if Frodo had finally cast the ring into the molten pit at Redskins Park and the world of burgundy and gold was, at last, saved." Hee hee! I LOVE IT! Oh, when my passions collide in the cultural zeitgeist... are there words to capture these emotions? Heaving Wistful Happy Sigh. And 'cause I've prattled on long enough (and that was the best reference, anyway) I won't EVEN go into all the references to Coach Gibbs as The Lord of the Rings (he's got three ya know, of the Super Bowl, not Elvish, variety). *** Okay, I may not be back til Monday, but oh by then what things to share, no? Yes!
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Did you click on "Ivy" framed? It shows it much better, though nothing like the real thing. Tim paints in 28 layers of oil - you would not believe how deep the colors are, and the photos do not show all the little greens and golds, or the alive quality of the little energy being (for lack of a better word) hovering above the globe of water with the light piercing it. I used to visit it every few days and stand transfixed. ***As for the writer's block, I'm working on it - and I know what you mean about being inspired by dreck. It's actually much MORE inspiring than comparing oneself with the best, especially when it bears some grotesque similarity to what one is doing. However, I was undone last summer by a completely unforeseen sequence of events. After two months of good progress, I hit the dread Block, and was just starting to crawl forward (at about half speed) when, doing research, I met my soulmate on the Internet, which completely derailed me, but in a good way. Said soulmate (who is, of course, terribly intelligent and perceptive, ;-)) is crazy about my writing, says it makes him cry, memorizes passages to quote back at me, and - get this - has ancestors whose land was about 100 yards from where my current chapters are set, and he's been there (as have I), so he knows. And since we are planning to spend the rest of our lives together, this seemed like a good place to honeymoon. I was happy to let the writing slide until then, hoping to come back full of fresh inspiration and sensory detail, with the best of all patrons to underpin my future career. Because he is literally supporting me, and has been since August. Only... we haven't yet met, since he is belatedly (thanks to me) in therapy for a rather nasty childhood trauma, and wants to work it out so it doesn't get in our way later. Meanwhile, we talk happily for an hour or two a night - even when I was in Italy with my sister. Month after month, our compatibilities keep piling up. However, first Italy was looming (with soulmate's full approval), and then I thought I might be packing to move in November, or December, or.... As you know, any excuse not to face the pain of the empty page. But we've agreed that I need to just go ahead and take another stab at the book, instead of tapping my foot. I know, I know... all those months I could have been writing.... Unfortunately, I can't seem to use writing AS therapy, but need to feel settled and secure to get inside my characters' heads. ***Have you heard of the book "The Midnight Disease," just published? There was an article on it in the paper - and I've ordered it. Apparently, it's mostly about compulsive writing, but also its flipside, writer's block, which is described as being a sheep dog with all a sheep dog's instincts, who somehow can't get itself to herd sheep. Both afflictions, apparently, are rooted in the same part of the brain. But I will look for that 15-year-old's fantasy - I'm sure it will drive me nuts. And I hope inspire me!
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Jan 08, 2004 9:40:42 PM CST
Master morGoth invited me so I thought I'd drop in...
by pippin's diamond
Thank'ee kindly for inviting this long absent hobbitess! Hullo and Happy New Year to you all! Also let me say a big hullo to that most blueish of wizards, Pallando, and to everyone else, even those I do not know. (Bilbo's farewell party line comes to mind). It's been a while! Well, I still have to read this talkback to see what's going on, but let me just say that I read (in the ROTK TB) master greenleaf's review, as well as master morGoth's... I agree with both. Yes, I agree about almost every flaw that has been pointed out. And I still hate Hulk Galadriel, the lack of a conspiracy unmasked, the lack of the "Baruk Khazad!" line by a certain son of Gl
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Can anyone perhaps tell me why in the movie version of the Two Towers the Elves from Lorien that come to helm's deep bring a message from Elrond? Did he tell Galadriel in their little mental conference that he wasn't going to send any soldiers of his own to help Aragorn out, but he would send some lame message with her soldiers and take the credit? Also, when Gandalf learns from Aragorn that Sam is with Frodo, he seems happily surprised. What, did he just assume that Sam had died or something? Wouldn't he have been curious to Sam's whereabouts before then? Also, in the extended version of the two towers, I was really happy with all of Faramir's new scenes, which I thought really helped his character and made him seem more like his kind and introspective book self, right up until his last scene where he is throttling gollum and throwing him on the ground and just being generally physically abusive. Was that really necessary? Just because he suspects that gollum might be up to no good isn't reason to resort to violence, especially towards someone so much smaller than himself. That doesn't seem much like the Faramir I know. Anyway.
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Jan 09, 2004 5:27:51 AM CST
ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT CUTEST! I'LL GET THE DAMN BOOK ALREADY!!!
by raw_bean
It might help you understand why I don't have it yet if I tell you it costs
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Jan 09, 2004 11:12:37 AM CST
I may have given you an exagerated idea of my poverty, cutest.
by raw_bean
I'm working in a decently paid job at the moment, doing a years industrial work placement as part of my degree course, so for the first time, I'm actually NOT feeling like a poor student. Having said that, I am trying to save almost half my earnings each month for my Final Year so I'm still not exactly rolling in it. I'll order Wolves tonite, and try to start it this weekend. I read quickly, so we can start having a good chin wag about it next week. ----- I wish you'd read the Dune prequels, particularly the currnetly evolving Legends of Dune series, it's so cool to see the seeds of things that will grow into the Bene Gesserit, Spacing Guild, Suk Doctor school, Swordmasters, and the Fremen. It's akin to the first time you read the Silmarillion, and discover a reference to Gandalf when he was the Maiar Olorin living in valinor.
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Jan 09, 2004 4:09:56 PM CST
Frodo and Sam - from today's film discussion on Slate
by daughter of time
Here's scholar Jeanette Zissell on the tabloid antics (?)of Sam and Frodo: "The intense relationship between Sam and Frodo, for example, is exactly of the same kind as Patroclus and Achilles, or Roland and Charlemagne. These men were extremely close, bonding in situations where their lives depend on each others' actions. Their relationships read as verging on the homoerotic to a modern reader, and yet fall short of actualizing that tension. In Sam and Frodo's case, as Tolkein was a devout Catholic, this relationship also reflects the communion between believers, and the respect, self-sacrifice and love they owe to each other. And while such sexual tension may or may not be present in any instance, each has a theme of friendship it is easy to miss. If these were stories of women, would we be so quick to discount feelings of loyalty and sentimental love in this way? As a culture we are often uncomfortable with male sentiment, something medievals had no difficulty in expressing. And while I understand your assertion and to a large extent agree, I would bring attention to the complications of these concepts that modern culture does not understand. We could well benefit from an inspection of that kind of bonding, and to look further at the self-assurance and lack of shame at male feeling that it involves."
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foist of all - Welcome to pip's D. Tis I, Ingold the banned. You missed a Ninja Galadriel discussion recently - I'd gone back and read your TATOWing of her. BTW - I can't believe you called LOTR a, ummmm ... . I gotta say though, greeny is my boy an' all, but don't let him taint you. Pallando et. al. have very convincing rebuttals to most major nitpicks. Also, I too thought the denethor/pippin/faramir scene sucked first time around - now it's my favorite scene in the movie. Anyway, welcome again and a big Hullo. ******** DoT - forget your book - incorporate your real life experience into it with your internet friend, as it sounds like you've a little "under the tuscan sun" thing going on. ******* BEAN - the raging bull.com was to point out that if you click on a poster's name, it pulls up only all of their posts. So if I wanted to search back something a person here said, I could do so easily. I also of course allows one to pull their own posts and wonder why the hell they blathered on so much. check it out. ******** Elanor - you might not be the first of the I'm-gonna-stop-wasting-my-life and stop-spending-4-hours-a-day-on-this-site, crowd - but you are the quickest to return! ******* Runelord: okay, I was going to say something about something you posted somewhere on this god-forsaken site, but I can't remember (memory like a lumber-yard) hmmmmmmmm ********** SOMEONE FIND A NEW SITE!!!!!!!!!
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Jan 09, 2004 4:54:12 PM CST
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by wall builder
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This hosing is too much. It takes more time to find the posts than to read them. Another reason to fade away and GET BACK TO MY OWN WRITING. ***Wallbuilder, if you find this, the Italian component was only in my vacation - the soulmate is a resident of the Pacific Northwest, and though he loves Italy (and Morocco, and Scotland) his longest stint abroad was graduate school in Aix-en-Provence. Our mutual dream terrain is in the North Sea, but we agree, long stints there might not be good for our aging joints. ***And now, I will see if I have more willpower than Elaine. If I cannot write, at least I can stop posting here... for a while.
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Jan 09, 2004 8:17:55 PM CST
You heard the guy, obey, foul TB! My take on this whole RotK aff
by pippin's diamond
By the Cats of Queen Beruthiel! After only three measly viewings and a couple of years of Internet deprivation (*not* depravation, please note) I honestly had forgotten just how many things bug me in this one, besides the ones I already mentioned. And then I start reading TBs... (Disclaimer: Lemme just remind you that I worship these films. Love. Worship. Yes. Well done. Great films.) It is a loong list of nits to pick: Gollum's transformation prosthetics (a scene which by the way really has *no* place at the beginning of the film IMHO, as it's not connected to anything... I think they were just giving New Line their preciouss introduction), Bilbo's horrid really really old prosthetics (please let Ian Holm act! aggh), Lumpy (You, the Elephant Man lookalike, please move a little more to the left, 'cuz all that styrofoam on your face is blocking 1/3 of the screen!), Then there's Gandy losing hope way before time... I would think this was done so to make up for his big moment of doubt, which was edited out (see: MoS) but I am now of the belief that after FotR PJ just stopped caring about theatrical releases. He knows people will go see the films no matter what, so he just doesn't care anymore. It's all about the EEs now, and it shows most blatantly in RotK, the way it's edited. -- More "Gah!" bits n' pieces, plus miscellaneous stuff: Arwen. What's that, Mr. Elrond sir? She's gonna die if Frodo doesn't succeed in casting the Ring into the fire? You don't say! So is mostly everyone else!! Totally agree with daughter of time on this, as well as on the Faramir thing. Interesting theories you guys have come up with. *Ahem ahem* A brief moment please just to announce that I have not, repeat, have not read this TB in its entirety yet (hope Wall Builder [master Ingold??] can remember the taste of food now, and that nassty wheel of fire is not tattooed to the back of his eyelids anymore. BTW, also looking forward to that King Arthur movie, and I, too, remember Sir Mordred. Wonder what happened to the old fellow). -- I haven't noticed Aragorn's accent at the Black Gate yet, but then I am terrribul with accents. -- Thanks Pallando for pointing out master Samwise's cyanotic ear! I'll be sure to focus my entire undivided attention on spotting it tomorrow. ^^ -- Elaine: about And
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You, banned?? Such a courteous, charming, non-jerkwadlosery fellow? *shakes head* When and how did that happen? Thankee very very much for the welcome and a big hullo to you too. Um, would you mind explaining what's TATOWing? (I really haven't the faintest). *Looks warily right and left* Please, sir, ix-nay on the ilogy-tray! I am appalled to learn I ever said such a thing, since I am always careful to accompany the word "trilogy" by the word "film" so as to not be in any way heretic! Still, back then I was young and naive and I'm sure I would be embarrassed by 90% of my old posts nowadays. Also, the whole Ninja Galadriel episode was quite embarrassing and I go red up to my hobbit ears just to think you've been rereading that. I wouldn't say greeny has tainted me in any way; I've always had nothing but high appreciation for him and it is regrettable that he was so disappointed by the films, but even though personally I wasn't disappointed I found myself agreeing with most of what he nitpicked. Truth be told I enjoy nitpicking these films; call me nuts, but nitpicking them just makes me love them all the more. ^_^ Actually I can live perfectly with every flaw that's been pointed out, absolutely everything *except* the Cirith Ungol scenes. I was truly disappointed by those. Not by the acting, not at all, but by the way they were written. I felt like PJ wanted to film a moving version of the Alan Lee painting first and foremost rather than the chapter written by the good Professor. Perhaps I should go read that again, I'm currently rereading LotR and I'm only 4 chapters away, so maybe then we'll see if I can warm up to that part of the film. I'm certainly hoping the EE includes the Choices. And Eru forbid, I do not think the Pippin/Denethor/Faramir scene sucks at all! No scene with Pippin in it can ever suck, it is not only improbable but also utterly impossible. ^^ Indeed I like it a lot. Actually I felt the whole M-E Idol audition thing the second time around, but that doesn't mean I don't like it. Really, I'll probably watch it a million times when the EE DVD comes out. Now, if only the dratted EE DVD would include the Choices of Master Samwise... All in all, great to see you again, master Ingold. :)
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My apologies for all the nitpicking... It's just that I hadn't had a chance to vent properly yet. *looks around in fear of Ingold's ever watchful eye for "trilogy" faux pas* Movie trilogy rules with a mighty fist, period. ^^
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You promised to keep that skunk Tevildo on a leash! He
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This came on the radio the other day: "A Lord of the Rings fan was assaulted in a theater on Saturday night. During the conclusion to Jackson's masterful epic a man grew annoyed at the people seated behind him and shushed them. Moments later the unidentified group got rambunctious so the man again turned around. This time one of the shushees slapped the soda from the hapless fan's hand, wrenched him into a headlock and began punching him. The party escaped into the confusion; authorities are sill searching." The announcer mumbled but I think he said that it was in Virginia. I assume it couldn't have been OUR Virginians - it would have been a much more interesting story with those two involved!
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No, actually. That was an
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As I surfed quickly through the TORn and CoE forums. The same questions asked over and over again by the unread who apparently don't know how to use a search engine. I don't mind questions and discussion, but there comes a time when "Why does Frodo have to leave?" and "What's up with Foromir, anyway?" let alone the ubiquitous eagle question just gets on my last nerve. And here I am working away at scarves, having 5 ready, but 3 are not for the people who will be present at the Lincoln Center talk on Sunday, and wondering if brown (the color of cocoa powder) is just too bland! Is a brown scarf with a little detailing in cream too boring for SA? It's done in a zigzagging diagonal rib. Mrrr....
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Great to see you all here! - was afraid the TEs had disbanded. First and foremost: A HUGE thanks to morGoth for letting me know where you all were. I'm afraid I've missed a lot of the debate and will contribute as much as I can once I've read through this TB. I posted my reaction to ROTK at Harry's review a couple of days ago, so I'll do a quick sum-up to let you guys know where I stand: I have seen ROTK four times and was completely enthralled by it. I accept that it is a "dumbed-down" version of the book but it is still a stunning blockbuster movie in its own right. Sure, there are some problems with continuity and logic - but they don't seem to matter compared to the strong momentum and overall vision of the film. BUT, having said all that..... the ending is a huge misjudgement which leaves a sour taste in the mouth. I am a Tolkien fan who dearly wanted to see this material on film but it just doesn't work. In PJ's retelling of LOTR, the story ends at the coronation scene. Full stop. What comes afterwards is some of the worst film-making I've ever seen in terms of writing, acting, direction - and if that weren't enough, these scenes are also crippled by significant technical problems. That's all I'll say for now, but I look forward to debating all this stuff and more in the near future...
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To start with your last question: Viggo Mortensen
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Steaming hot and with lots of sugar, just the right thing for a cold winter day :-) [I
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You can make out some writings on the blade of Anduril when Aragorn whips it out (no sniggering please...) dangerously close to Elrond. Buggers me what's written on it though, probably spells for the ruin of Mordor or some such. Probably written in Feanorian characters too. I noticed something else when I saw it again today as well. Gimli makes the same gasp when he sees Aragorn's crown as he did when he saw Frodo's mail shirt. Then I remembered the crown of the king was made of mithril (predominantly I guess). Nice little touch eh? Cheers.
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I wonder if you could ask PJ if he would have preferred to end his movie at the coronation scene? It seems to me that the reason there was no place for the Scouring of the Shire is the same reason there was no place for the risible Shire/Grey Havens section. (having seen these scenes I am now glad SOTS isn't in it - which is something I never thought I'd say). Did he feel he'd be lynched by purists if he left all that stuff out? If so, I think it was the wrong call. I have yet to meet a single person - Read or Un-read - who doesn't hate the final scenes of ROTK. In fact, I know two rabid purists who admire PJ's ROTK but believe the ending completely "tears down the rest of the movie" (to quote one) and "made me want to puke" (to quote the other).
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Jan 10, 2004 11:33:29 AM CST
Yay! Un****ed talkback (don't want to jinx it!) *dances springl
by djinnj
Hi Elaine! Here’s my LJ: Here’s my website: For the quiz, go to and pick “Which Lord of the Rings character and personality problem are you?
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OK folks, I watched carefully this time. I think the welt under F's right collarbone is the Shelob sting mark. If you watch the scenes with F preceding the stinging, the neck of his shirt is open and the collar of the mithril shirt can be seen hanging quite low. It's about 1.5 handspans below the base of his neck, and 1 handspan below his collarbone. Even considering curvature of the collar, it is still reasonable for her to have hit him where the mark is and clear the shirt. Also, I don't think the angle is right for her to have hit him in the stomach. I think it is, as I don't recall who speculated, that Frodo has lost weight, and the shirt is hanging loosely off of him.
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You people seem to have put a lot of thought into these things. Can anyone perhaps tell me why in the movie version of the Two Towers the Elves from Lorien that come to helm's deep bring a message from Elrond? Did he tell Galadriel in their little mental conference that he wasn't going to send any soldiers of his own to help Aragorn out, but he would send some lame message with her soldiers and take the credit? Also, when Gandalf learns from Aragorn that Sam is with Frodo, he seems happily surprised. What, did he just assume that Sam had died or something? Wouldn't he have been curious to Sam's whereabouts before then? Also, in the extended version of the two towers, I was really happy with all of Faramir's new scenes, which I thought really helped his character and made him seem more like his kind and introspective book self, right up until his last scene where he is throttling gollum and throwing him on the ground and just being generally physically abusive. Was that really necessary? Just because he suspects that gollum might be up to no good isn't reason to resort to violence, especially towards someone so much smaller than himself. That doesn't seem much like the Faramir I know. Anyway.
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Well, I tried everything I could think of to get in to see ROTK with the cast Q & A but since I forgot to bring my ring and make myself invisible I failed. I DID get back inside but was stumped by the cagy layout of Alice Tully Hall and the extremely attentive (yet polite) security staff. My plan was to hang out in the ladies room till about 9:15 then follow some unsuspecting patron back into the auditorium. No one would be checking tickets that late, I reasoned (I had tested this theory during the day). BUT, dangnabbit, even though I was able to get back inside the lobby (no, I shan't tell how) I couldn't GET to the ladies room without having a ticket! Ah well. I plotted and planned for about 20 more minutes and then accepted defeat. On my way out
I passed about 50 diehard hopefuls still standing OUTSIDE in the 4 degree cold for a chance at a non-existent ticket.
***What's that? You want to know how it WAS rather than my failed gate-crashing story? Oh. OK, IT WAS GREAT of course. A very cute and cheery Elijah and Sean introduced Fellowship. My favorite part of the day was how huge the audience response for them was. It was truly thunderous
applause, went on a long time, embarrassing both of them, and THEN people stood up and kept clapping even more. I really liked getting to see them experience that. They sort of hung back on the edge of the spotlight rather than moving forward. I think the size of the room and our enormous love for them was a bit intimidating. Anyway, they were sweet and humble and Sean said when he thinks of The Lincoln Center he usually thinks of Lawrence of Arabia or Gone With The Wind and the audience went nuts, clearly believing that LOTR is already worthy of such company. Elijah asked if this was anyone's first time and got a big laugh. Then he asked if anyone had been at Trilogy Tuesday and about a fourth of the audience waved and yelled. Then they both gave us some advice about how to avoid muscle damage (from sitting so long) and wished us well and off they went. Someone tossed an envelope and Elijah trotted back to pick it up. He held it up and then dashed off to more applause.
The movie started, and when the LOTR title came up the audience roared happy applause again. It was an attentive and enthusiastic crowd. Very well behaved. All of Bilbo's, Pippin's, and Gimli's jokes played well and Aragorn's vanquishing of Lurtz got its usual big reaction. Seeing Fellowship after having seen ROTK is especially pleasing as the hobbits' innocence is so beguiling when one knows what hardships lie ahead for them.***
After Fellowship ended (to more thunderous and sustained applause, there was about an hour's break. Many people had brought lunch with them and the Lincoln Center staff permitted us to sit and eat right there in the lobby. I ran into a few folks I have come to know from the midnight showings, etc. It was fun to stop and chat about our favorite subject!***Then,
for the Towers introduction we were treated to Bernard Hill. His theatre training showed, as he walked right to center stage, holding a mike and got the best of the spotlight. He spoke about how he loved working with Peter and playing Theoden, the gorgeous
locations and made a funny referrence about his neice falling in love with a "horrible man" who needed a shave. We gave him a thunderous welcome and standing ovation, too. Then Andy Serkis was introduced and instead
of coming out, we heard Slinker and Stinker arguing about whether
to go out or not. Then out bounded Andy, with his coat still
on, and we roared for him, too. He talked about how what happened
in the world affected the writers
and the work, he was very complimentary of Fran and Phillipa. Then he and Bernard stood together with their arms around each other and waved as we applauded all over again. Someone yelled "Thank you!" and I wished it had been me. Then Towers started and again, when the title came up the crowd clapped its mighty approval. It seemed to me that lots of people in this audience were seeing the extended version for the first time. There were big reactions for nearly all the extended scenes; the ones I remember were for "roast chicken" and Gollum's
"ashes and dust scene", The Eowyn/Aragorn Dunedain scene (featuring stew! heh heh) and HUGE APPROVAL reactions to Legolas/Gimli "43" (every line got a laugh and there was applause at the end). Then even BIGGER approval reactions came for Merry & Pippin in waist-deep water (every line, every reaction got laughs), and then their follow-up scene in the storeroom brought the house down, a real "thank you for that" applause. It was a great day.***I will try not to be too jealous when I read about the
ROTK Q & A. And tomorrow, well, I'll tell you about that tomorrow...!***Pip's Diamond! and Orson! What a treat to have you both back. But tsk, tsk, Cutest; Pip's D is a lassie, for goodness sake!***Pip's D: I would like to comment on some of your nit-picks but I need to check book referrences first, but Yay! to have you posting here again. A big hug to morG for his efforts! Orson, my dear, my dear, congratulations on your latest appreciation news. I suppose you wouldn't be you if you didn't still find something to loathe (sorry you feel that way but it's ok). I have had a very different experience than you on the ending(s). I have met noone at all who "hates" it, (well, besides you) though I feel some parts are more belabored than what's good for them, I adore every drawn-out inch of the Grey Havens, especially Frodo's beatific healed-of-hurt-and-weariness smile on the ship, and in spite of the unfortunate make-up job on dear Bilbo. I adore the war-veteran unspoken bond of the hobbits in the Green Dragon scene and Frodo's melancholy roaming in Bag End. And, for me, what works about the "well I'm back" ending-of-all-endings, is the dappled golden light shimmering on the simple hobbit door.***goodnight all. djinnj and Pallando - see you at Old John's! -
Have you considered reading other people's posts before you repeat one of your own? Pippin's Diamond answered a lot of your questions last night. She went to a bit of trouble to read a whole lot of other people's posts and then responded to many of them. Maybe you could try that? If the subject really interests you, that is.
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Take the quiz!!! It's not a long quiz, but the questions and answers are pretty funny. I'm Pippin and Runelord is Aragorn. I've made a tinyurl so you don't have to go searching for it: Incidentally, if you don't know about tinyurl, you should. will turn any long url into a short one. It's free, and it doesn't expire! /me can't wait for tomorrow!
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There's no need to get snippy. I thought that my post had gone unnoticed since it appeared at some random location in the middle of many old posts. I hadn't noticed that it had been addressed by pippin's diamond (thanks). That response was in the middle of a long post that I skimmed but didn't read carefully, since I assumed, as I said before, that no one had read my question. I planned to read some of the posts more carefully later on, but right then I was just checking to see if there had been any responses to mine as I was eager to have the issues which had been bothering me since my last viewing of the Two Towers resolved. I reposted the question since it looked like new posts were being put in chronological order at the end of the list. I'm terribly sorry that I made a mistake. Is it really that big of a deal?
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What else could I do, Pallando? I am a digger. That
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If you ever remember, Ingold, just go ahead. **** Bean, as ever I
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Glad that you have had such a rewarding LOTR-related experience and thanks for such a warm welcome! BTW: much respect for not spoiling ROTK for us in your original review in December. There are such stupendous moments (both loud and quiet) in this movie that I don't know how you restrained yourself from talking about them. ***** Yup, well, my overall reaction to ROTK is extremely positive, as you know. In the light of your friendly welcome, it seems somewhat ungracious of me to harp on about my only major problem with the movie - which is that I just can't stand the last fifteen minutes or so - but let me clarify this, if you would be so patient. The fact is that after my first two viewings, I have started leaving the theatre when the camera pans out to the map of Middle-Earth (the proper ending for me - should fade to black here: The End) - mainly because I can't bear to hear the laughter and groans with which the Grey Havens scenes are greeted. I'm not exaggerating (I promise)when I say that everyone I have talked to disliked the ending of ROTK. Mainly I have been talking to Un-read people, who found the multiple endings tedious at best. My current girlfriend (Un-read) actually preferred TTT - which baffles me completely. But the one consolation I have is that once I have the DVD I can just skip to the credits with the press of a button. But for the benefit of ordinary cinema-goers I think it's a shame these scenes weren't at least confined to the EE.
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I'm glad you got my point and sorry if I came off snippy. I meant it more as a little finger wagging I guess. And I should have realized that not everyone knows that tailenders go to a lot of trouble to seek out new posts even in a horribly hosed tb. I hope to add my thoughts to your questions later today when I come back from the PJ event.
See you then. -
It is apparent that all shifts shall be put on overtime IMMEDIATELY! The number of unexpected guest arriving after the New Years drought has nearly drained all the alcohol stocks and with the arrival of
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I have seen that degree of pecking at a thing since, well, greenleaf
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...Pip's D and Orson. I felt I would've been completely remiss if I hadn't directed you both to this (what may turn out to be one of the last) Tailend. Make new friends...keep the old...
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Now see here Rune, that weren
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Conan the Humble: About Aragorn's sword and the writings on it - Thanks for pointing that out! I noticed it yesterday, and then I remembered why at first I said there were none - the first time around I was looking for the Sun and Crescent Moon rather than for the runes. Interesting, will be on the lookout for Gimli's reaction, too. -- djinnj: Thanks to you for the Shelob analysis. Yesterday I didn't notice that, but will do so next time. For some reason this whole time I thought the welt was from the Troll attack in Moria. Uhhh... did I mention I turned out a Pippin too? Twice, even though the second time I tried slightly different but yet fitting answers. "You... display....brilliance... somebody as adorable as you are." Yes, this description is thoroughly edited for my convenience, justly leaving out huge chunks of lies and slander. ^^ The third time I chose plenty of soap and turned out a Legolas. Funny though, I have a brother and he turned out to be Merry and his insatiable blood-lust the first time around, which is proof that this quiz is bloody brillant. -- elanor, lass! So very nice to see you! Why, the treat is all mine, thanks a mil for the warm welcome. :D You lucky hobitess you! Grreat Lincoln Center report. It's a shame all that clever plotting was thwarted, but the effort is highly appreciated. -- Runelord: Hullo, good sir! Yes, I have seen you before. Mucho gusto indeed! You seem to know a lot about me... Have we've met before? -- Not to seem ungracious, as master Orson said, but it seems he dislikes the ending as much as I dislike the Cirith Ungol stuff. Personally I like the ending fine, though 5 small things about it bug me: 1. Frodo & Sam on a rock, lava surrounding them, here at the end of all things, fade to black... One second... two seconds... (unread audience groans at the unsatisfying apparent ending) three seconds (people start getting up from their seats) four seconds (people start leaving the theater) five seconds... aaanndd... Fooled ya! That's not the end yet! Haw haw haw! (audience reaction: much groaning, going back to their seats or staying where they're standing) At this point I can imagine PJ laughing his hobbit ass off. 2. Frodo's fake laugh. Again. 3. For reasons beyond me the movie doesn't end with the ship sailing into the distance and the green country under a swift sunrise. The Sam ending would've been quite a treat if it had been left for the EE release. 4. Sooo... did Celeborn have Narya the Great in this version? Or was it Gandalf? Don't fail me now, EE! 5. Samwise Gamgee, MAYOR of Hobbiton, is *still* living in #3, Bagshot Row with his wife, his Old Gaffer and 10+ children, I guess! Woe woe, I am left to believe that those accursed Sackville-Bagginses finally got ahold of that purty hole Bag End permanently after Frodo left Middle-Earth, leaving Sam ZERO, zip, nada, nary a thing except for a few measly pages of the Red Book. I am outraged. -- This said, after my 4th viewing I really can't believe how much I love this film!! I believe most problems will be fixed in the EE, for as I saw it unfold on the screen, I kept thinking of PJ with a chainsaw in the editing room. He knows he could've just thrown 3 hours of random scenes at us and *still* we would've gone to see RotK time and again. I'm sure he did this one for the EE. Also, after my 4th viewing I have come to like most of the Lembas Gambit fiasco. IMHO it would even be brilliant if *IF* Sam still followed Frodo afterwards *in spite* of Gollum, instead of giving up (this alone will ruin the Choices if they're included on the EE, alas). Cut out the whole scene with Sam going down the stairs and finding the magical-landing lembas. -- Bean: In answer to your poll, my vote goes to Frodo's phial utterance, though all the others you point out are indeed pretty geeky (Another geeky moment for me: "Hey, that guy in the background doing nuthin', that's gotta be C
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morGy old boy, nice to see you drop by! Here you invite me and all and then when I get here there's nary a peep from ya! So much for Angband hospitality! ;) Nah, seriously, just kidding morG, and thankee again so very much for inviting me and for the warm welcome too. Once again you astound me with your great knowledge of all things Tolkien like in the old days. Like I said I am rereading LotR now, but it's been so long since I had Tolkienoidish people to talk to that I've forgotten a whole lot of details and huge chunks of the book *hobbit ears go red*. I'm hoping to catch up now. For the record though, like I told master Ingold I am aware of my wild exaggerations, as I don't really mind about any of the nitpicking I did except for the Cirith Ungol stuff, the only thing about the whole 3 movies that was disappointing for me (not counting Faramir's portrayal as a complete bastard in the TT theatrical release, which of course was fixed to my satisfaction in the TT:EE). My "Minas Tirith/Mordor not being dark enough" claim is probably biased because of the RotK video game though, now that I think about it, so kindly pay no heed to the man behind the curtain... *Ahem* The Shelob sting thing makes sense now (why did I think that welt had anything to do with Moria is now beyond me). I knew you wiser folk could clear it up. ^^ Still, I'm sticking with my Shelob-proof mithril shirt story, especially considering the movie FotR troll spear attack (mighty fierce!) didn't leave a scratch on it. Lumpy, I mean, Gothmog is fine now as I've grown attached to the styrofoamy fellow, but believe me, the first time around I couldn't for the life of me think of him as anything but a very bulky WETA mask. I seem to remember someone complaining about him coming across as too heroic, but I'd rather think of him as very very cocky. -- Finally: I'll clean the bathrooms at Club Angband for a week if you manage to dig up the translation for those runes, morGy! Hannon le in advance,
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Narsil pommel: Narsil essenya, macil meletya; // Telchar carnéron Návarotesse ----> 'Narsil [is] my name, [a] mighty sword;// Telchar made me in Nogrod' ----- Anduril blade: Anar// Nányë Andúril i né Narsil i macil Elendilo. // Lercuvanten i móli // Mordórëo. // Isil ------> 'Sun. // I am Andúril who once was Narsil, sword of Elendil. // The slaves of Mordor shall flee from me. // Moon.' ---- Courtesy of They've got just about everything there. They've also got the inscriptions written out neatly so you can try your hand at translating on your own.
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Apparently I'm Merry with an "insatiable bloodlust"!!! Strange combination that but there you go. Maybe all that time spent with the magick dingus stirred something up inide me eh? Cheers.
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and my anal retentive attention to persoanl hygiene... Cheers.
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No - se
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So if I bathe you might date me, eh? As long as it
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I'm quite sorry about the gender mix-up, and particularly embarrassed since I myself have often been a victim of such confusions on TB. The "-lord" part of yer nick threw me off, though after I had posted I read one of morGoth's posts calling you "madame" and so I noticed my mistake, but alas too late. *Keeps reading post* I see, I see... and Yes, I do live in Mexico. :) So I guess the Most Foolish award goes to me, since dunderhead I am I don't remember out meeting; I hope you can forgive me! BTW, when and how did this Great Banning come to be? -- djinnj: Thankee kindly for the info and also for saving me from cleaning the foul Club Angband bathrooms! Sorry morG, maybe next time?
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I really AM curious.
Don -
...or perhaps it was 10 months ago on TB#14728, but I digress... It was a period of peace. Rebel Tailenders, striking from a hidden base, won their frist victory against the evils of a new TALK BACK. During the invasion, troll spies managed to bring attention of their plans to the Website
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Lummee, the talent comment and entertainment job offer have been withdrawn?
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It seems I am being called upon to visit Madison tonight/this morning. I guess I won
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See ya there. ***HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!! Pippin's Diamond as I live and breathe. How splendid! How the hell are ya, sweetheart? ***And now it's time for bed. I HATE THE REDEYE!
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Pippin's Diamond, now this is a completely unexpected delight! Okay, I confess, saw your return Friday night. But willpower and sleep deprivation forced me to not respond then, or I'd still be typing (and there were trains to catch...) such was my pleasure at your return outta the blue. :) Welcome BACK! New friends, Pip's D goes way way on back, to the days when Tailenders were scouring the Net for news on What Was Shot Today and poring over the April '99 ('00?) first Internet teaser. Sigh. But you do not know your peril! If there's anyone who's gonna take me on in a wordcount-per-post competition, it's the Tookess. :) It's so great to READ you again, m'dear! ...See everybody over at elanor's report! Leaving this TB.... wait for i-i-i-i-it.... now. Leaving now. No, wait... ... Now.
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The prelude to Dune series (House Atreides, House Harkonnen, House Corrino) imediately precede Dune (by a few years), whereas the Legends of Dune (The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, and an as yet unreleased third book) series is set thousands of years before Dune, and so doesn't really connect with it narratively. Personally, I'd say go with the chronological order and start with Legends: Butlerian Jihad. The only problem with that is the possibility of having to wait for the third one to come out.
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I'm hoping my unfortunate habit of only posting during work hours and not going online at home over the weekend will eventually pay off with an unbroken string of "Last!" posts at the very tip'0'the tailends. C'mon guys, give a crippled ol' sea mammal a fair fin shake, mm'kay? And just to post something somewhere the topic at hand, I have to say that every single person I've talked to who has seen ROTK, Book-first or Film-only, has had absolutely no problem with the ending(ses?) All merely sat in rapt attention as the movie elegantly tied up all the threads. (So says mi padre: Good things walrus come to their own end in time) And the four times I've seen the movie, I haven't heard one peep of dissatisfaction. Of course, I'm so completely focused on the thing that I probably wouldn't notice anyway...See you all at elanor's report and nobody post here again pleasepleaseplease (;{=
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It wasn't us! It wasn't us! Sabster wouldn't hurt mortsleam. You must believe us. It was the Precious! The Precious made us do it!
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Jan 13, 2004 9:29:25 AM CST
There and LAST!!! again, a Walrus's tale, by W.J. Mortsleam
by mortsleam
Sabster, you are in soooooo much trouble...
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But then, I am only poor snaga and what do snaga know?
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Jan 13, 2004 12:59:54 PM CST
Aw c'mon, Snaga, for the LAST!!! time, I asked pleasepleasepleas
by mortsleam
Doesn't that count for something? Whatever happened to common human decency? Or common snaga decency for that matter?
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coo coo ka choo
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Wheeeeee!
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And for the LAST!!! rassum' frassum' time, it's Goo-Goo g'Joob! I may be many things, sir Ingold, but one thing I'm definitely NOT is Mrs. Robinson. Does that make sense? That LAST!!! little bit there?
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Dammit, why can't you all get it into your heads that I am and will always be last? Come on, face it. You're going to lose this one.
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would sneak in a Last when no-one is looking, then create a new ID and try to get it banned in an effort to bring about a hosing. Of course, you'd have to be a real bastard to try that one.
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Jan 15, 2004 5:59:55 AM CST
Aw, but you wouldn't be THAT much of a bastard, would you, Bean?
by elaine
As if stealing my Last wasn't bad enough. You are not being a gentleman, good sir!
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last. cheers.
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Surely you didn't think it was going to be THAT easy? LAST!
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Still patrolling the Eastern shore? :~)
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Yes, I'm still patrolling the Eastern shore, and it's only fair to warn you that you'll need more than a few Elven boats and a valiant sword-buckling Boromir to get past me. LAST!
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As a young chil
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You see, this place rightfully belongs to me. Yes, it does! Kneel before my Last-ness!
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Last. Whip-Tash!
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And now that I've politely thanked you, can I reclaim my position? It's mine! My own! My precious!
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You also lost 16901 to my Bean. ;D
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Is my Runelord stealing Elaine's Last? :^)
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Very happy for the lot of you. Too bad you're all so not last. But then, being last is a lonely business, and who knows better than I?
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Feb 23, 2004 10:03:03 AM CST
'Course that woulda been a whole lot cleverererer had this TB no
by mortsleam
Aw fuck it. Runey takes all.
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I am and will always be LAST. And when this talkback is unhosed, I'll prove it!
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DOUBLE LAST! Ha, take that, you silly wannabees!
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Ahem..."Lalalalala"...Last.
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As in, "last again"!
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Last! Whip-tash! As it began, so shall it end. Me. Alone. Bye-bye baby, it's been fun.
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It does get old! Very old indeed! So why don't you just grant me this Last, for once...?
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You know darn well why. I'm simply incapable of giving you want you want.
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