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Mr Beaks whispers with Fran Walsh & The Queen of the Geeks re: RETURN OF THE KING!
Hey folks, Harry here... working on my review of RETURN OF THE KING, seen it twice now... gets even greater upon second viewing... Tuesday, I finally get to see THE LORD OF THE RINGS... so giddy. Here ya go...
Not two hours after stepping off a plane from Ohio, I found myself sitting in the main theater at The Grove in Beverly Hills waiting to watch RETURN OF THE KING. Twelve hours later, I was scrunched into a crowded roundtable at the Four Seasons, ready to lob questions at the principal cast and crew.
Surely, there are worse ways to end a vacation.
As we slowly make our way toward December 17th, I will be posting pieces from last week’s marathon junket. To kick it all off, I figured I’d give star billing to the brainy ladies partially behind these amazing pictures, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens.
Enough of my yakkin’; let’s boogie.
Are you guys relieved this is all over, or are you sad or bittersweet?Philippa Boyens: Oh, relieved. Definitely. For myself, absolutely, because it was like that essay that was left unfinished, or that project that was just… it was *long*. But, really, an incredible journey.
What can you say about the complications about doing these adaptations?PB: One thing that we knew absolutely, the guiding principle in doing this adaptation, was that it had to work as a film, first and foremost. As three films. So, that was critical, and, hopefully, we would offend as few Tolkien fans as possible along the way. But that wasn’t an issue. We just had to make these work as films.
Did you prefer Arwen in or out of Helms Deep?PB: Out. Which is actually why she’s out of Helms Deep.
So, the original call to have her in was… ?PB: We wrote what really was a selling script initially. If you look at Arwen in the books, she’s sitting at home embroidering a standard for Aragorn, which was not going to play in Hollywood. You can’t take that in a selling script.
It’s not going to play anywhere.PB: We did attempt to write a character that was going to play much more to a studio’s concept of what they could offer to a leading female character, and a more involved story. What luckily happened as the process of filming these, and the rushes started coming in, and working with the actors closely, people began to trust the material a lot more. Probably including ourselves. And understand that we could do this story, and take it much closer to the appendices.
On the Extended Edition of THE TWO TOWERS, you commented on making a chronological cut of all the movies. Are you going to do this as a side project?Fran Walsh: I think that would be a great thing to do. I was thinking the other day that, if you did that, you would start with the prologue from film one, and then you would go into the film three sequence with Andy and Deagol and fishing and the finding of the ring.
You directed that portion with Andy?FW: Yes. Yes, I shot that with him. And, then, we would go into Bilbo coming into the cave. We would be reinventing the storytelling for the film. It would be quite extraordinary. I’d love to do it because we tell so much of it in flashback and in out-of-sequence. I don’t know that New Line would be open to that idea.
At what point in the life of the project was it decided that the opening of film three would be the Smeagol and Deagol scene?FW: We had a philosophy of “shoot everything”. (Laughs.) Which is why there’s lots of material for the extended DVD’s. So, we shoot as much as we can. We try to get as much of the story as we can on film. We cut it. Try to evaluate the cut, and see what plays. And if it doesn’t play, if we have story problems, we take them out. And we think, “That could go on the DVD.” That’s been our philosophy. Or it could go on the next film, because we’ve always had another one coming up.
Not now.FW: Not now. And that was very much what happened with the Saruman sequence at the end of THE TWO TOWERS. We had this abundance of climactic action at the end of THE TWO TOWERS, with the flooding of Isengaard, and the battle of Helms Deep, and we have Gollum, Frodo and Sam’s story. We really felt that this denouement, seven or ten minute thing with him was not going to serve the storytelling at that point. So, we thought we’d pop it into film three, that’s no problem. But when we got there, we had a four hour-plus cut of RETURN OF THE KING. It was evident to us at that point that, wrapping out the end of film two with a character who really doesn’t feature in this movie when we had so much to get on with, and we really did need to get some time out – obviously it was too long – so a decision was made to put that on the DVD.
PB: It was the beginning of the year that that was done.
FW: Yes. Sequences do move around, they do shift. And, yes… the Andy and Deagol sequence was shot for film two.
PB: It was when Frodo says, “That was your name, wasn’t it?” And he says, “My name, my name.” Originally, we went into that flashback.
I just wondered if that was a way of catching the audience up on the story thus far.FW: Well, yes. What happened was, although it was shot for film two, when we were looking at it and evaluating it, we felt that it was going to play better in film three. And one of the reasons we did that was because the film could open with the ring, the finding of it, through this character, and close the ring story with its destruction. That felt like a good kind of unity for the film. It felt like a good way: if you’ve got to destroy this thing, let’s have something of its origin story at the front of the film. That felt right to us. Also, with the character of Gollum, too… if we’re going to see how he ended, let’s see how he began. It had some good sense to it, so we made that decision fairly early on in THE TWO TOWERS cut.
You mentioned ending with a protracted denouement for THE TWO TOWERS, and here in RETURN OF THE KING…FW: Yes.
… as writers, that’s incredibly tricky. Some would say that’s almost suicide, that it’s just denouement. FW: Yes, I know.
PB: See, I don’t think it is. I think it’s about the fate of Frodo. We understand the fate of the ring; that is, it’s not a denouement, it is the fate of Frodo. And there’s one part of the story that remains to be told. You’ve destroyed the ring, and he has to pay their price, which is his own destruction. Frodo can’t go back. That’s a critical part of the storytelling. I don’t think it’s the denouement; I think it’s the end of the movie. What was great for me was seeing it play with an audience, and that it *did* play. They actually have an appetite for it. Actually, it carries some of the biggest emotional parts of the story.
Well, yeah, it is very resonant.PB: So, it didn’t feel like a risk. Also, Peter… has got pretty great instincts, and he generally has a pretty strong… and Fran certainly has an instinct, for how much appetite they might have. He kind of knew that you weren’t just wrapping out one movie, you were wrapping out three movies.
Right. But there’s a very tangible idea of the destruction of the ring. You really feel that. And even that’s tricky because you’re destroying something that is… it’s the Eye of Sauron, it’s not even a character so much. But, then, with that gone… I mean, it does feel—PB: You imagine the film without it. That’s what I always say. Take those endings away, and how would the film resonate? It doesn’t actually resonate until you destroy Frodo.
On the other side, there’s the much longer ending.PB: Oh, are you kidding? We could’ve gone on for a half-hour if you wanted to play out the whole ending.
Was there some discussion at any point of, at least, a credit call or a narration of what happened to everybody? It seems like, in the book, a lot of the characters wind up going into the west.PB: That will probably appear in the DVD.
Thank god for the DVD, right?PB: Well, actually, what these films have done is, inadvertently and organically, produced this kind of form of storytelling whereby you have the big screen, and it must work as a piece of storytelling on the large screen, and that’s a different experience to the DVD, which is another form of storytelling. It can be slightly more episodic.
Talking about the ending, I like this film’s ending because it follows the personal story. But when I saw the film last night, some people, right after Frodo had completed his journey and it blacked out, thought it was ending and tried to clap.PB: Part of that was to show that the story goes on, but also that we wanted to end the films exactly where the book ends, which is literally on the last line of the book. It’s a little bit of a conceit that we end up on the same page eventually.
As this went along, did you find yourself, especially with the last two films, starting to write toward the way the actors were playing it?FW: Yes, very much so.
Can you point to specific things?PB: Viggo Mortensen, just about the whole way through, became Aragorn. Aragorn was actually a really hard character to write, just as most lead characters are the hardest. The easiest characters to write are the interesting characters, the secondary characters – Wormtongue or Gollum – they’re flawed and they’re interesting. But, you know, Aragorn was tough, and I don’t think we found him until Viggo Mortensen stepped off the plane. And we started writing towards him. We did have an instinct and an understanding that Aragorn’s journey wasn’t going to cut it on the film, and this sense that there would be doubt and questioning; that we would give him more psychological depth. But what Viggo brought to it was that he was able to make that play so brilliantly. He paced his performance, if you look at it over the three movies, really beautifully. You’re treading water if you’re not careful with that character.
Are you guys continuing to work with Peter on other things, or are you taking a break from the world of Peter Jackson?PB: (To Fran) You can’t.
You’re stuck there. But generally speaking.PB: It’s actually a pretty cool world to inhabit. And the two of you are so great. It’s a ride.
Are you going ape?PB: Yeah, we are going ape. That’s what I was just going to mention. It is amazing. You have breakfast, or you have a cup of tea, and suddenly you’re talking about stuff. Peter’s having this idea, or Fran’s having an idea, and I’m sitting there eating my cereal going, “I want to see this movie! I want to see this movie!” Because you just know it’s going to be fantastic.
So, you are departing from the earlier draft. FW: Yes.
It’s going to be much different.FW: We’re tossing it out.
Is anything going to remain?FW: Some of the action sequences will remain.
For instance?FW: There was a brontosaurus part, I believe.
How different is it?FW: It’ll be much closer to the 1933 film.
And Namoi Watts is definitely in the film?FW: We hope so.
PB: We’re 99.9 percent sure.
FW: They’re finalizing details.
How do you handle nineteen major characters?PB: That was absolutely one of the hardest things that we had to do. We worked it, and worked it, and worked it. That’s how you do it. It’s just a slog. Really. And, also, being involved in each part of the storytelling process, Peter’s very collaborative, and he embraced the fact that we had started this journey, and that it was a good idea to keep us going on it. It was really great for me to be included in (Fran and Peter’s) inner-process, because you got to fix some of those mistakes in the pick-up shoots.
FW: Well, we had no option. We couldn’t just cut these characters, or kill them off.
PB: That was one of the early notes from Miramax. One early note from Miramax was, “What do you need four Hobbits for? Get rid of two of them.”
FW: “Kill a Hobbit.”
Really?PB: Yeah, but, you know, actually not a stupid note. Or *as* stupid as it sounds. In terms of storytelling, yes, you understand that maybe you don’t need four Hobbits in the Fellowship, and having one die really early on would make the Black Riders effective. But you just could never do it, and that became our problem continually. That’s what you do in the process of adaptation.
FW: I remember how nightmarish that scene in FELLOWSHIP in Rivendell, because it was in that sequence – I don’t know how many pages it was, ten or whatever – we had seven introductions. We had all of these characters that came in. We had Arwen, we had Elrond, Gimli, Boromir…
PB: Bilbo turned up again.
FW: Bilbo turned up again. And, then, Gandalf had to explain how he got back. It just went on, and it was like, “Enough!” Every page we were trying to reestablish or introduce a new character, and that was the worst, actually, because you had to try and disguise each introduction as something else.
Next time, we’ll check in with… well, everyone short of Miranda Otto, Karl Urban and Peter’s kids, really.
Faithfully submitted,
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...they can at least have the good sense to cast Ron Livingston as Jack Driscoll.
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Gollum has a beer and cheets on Frodo. The Sam has a beer and cheets on Rosy.
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Crazy idea. But, it *could* have worked, for instance, if they included Fatty Bolger in the early part of the movie, as he was in the book (the house in Crickhollow (SP?)). Anyway, nice interview.
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all along was a woman or two that could write for shit.
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In the book, does the Eowyn character go all GI JANE like I've heard she does in RoTK movie? Please tell me she does, and that this isn't Jackson falling prey to the stupid Hollywood trend of having women warriors who perform well beyond what is reasonable and realistic. The lack of pandering is one of the things I've liked about these movies.
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Yes, Eowyn in my opinion has the single biggest heroic action scene in the book (in combat fighting that is).
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From the Encyclopedia of Arda at http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/:
"The granddaughter of King Thengel of Rohan, and sister to -
It's easy to forget that with these books being around for over fifty years, there can still be spoiler potential. Sorry about that.
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As to Harry's (?) comment that having Arwen embroider a standard for Aragon not playing anywhere: Yes it would. Only Hollywood and the far left think that having women take part in ground combat is a good idea. Most people instinctively know that God or evolution (whichever you believe) has seen to it that men are biologically built for fighting. Its common sense to most people. Having Arwen do such a thing for her brave warrior man would seem perfectly natural to most people.
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Thanks for the information.
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I'm also a big fan of quilting porn. Let's hope the extended edition DVD has some cool needlepoint moments!
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the only person ever to shoot 50 out of 50 in the black at Marine boot camp was a woman. At least up until the time I went thru.
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You're gonna have to amp up the trolling if you really want to excite anybody. Lame paint-by-numbers efforts thus far. Take some time, think it over, come up with something interesting and get back to us.
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oddly enough, i was watching "fellowship" last night in an effort to prep myself for next week, and i couldnt help but think to myself "ya know, i really wish they had an option to view all of the scenes in chronological order." i'm just giddy about the fact that apparently the filmmakers are thinking the same thing...it's kinda like how i always wanted a "reverse" version of memento to come out, so that we could see it in the order that it actually happened...
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Dear Lord, don't do it! I honestly can't afford to buy 3 versions of this trilogy. Of course, I'll sell my children if necessary, but I'd rather not.
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If it didn't "feel" right for the theatrical version, will it feel right for the RotK: Extended Edition? Or just tacked-on. A few Lothlorien scenes in the LotR: EE feel that way.
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I almost wish the DVDs offered the option of playing either version of the film. On their own, I LOVE all the additions to TTT and what they bring to the story. But I'm still not sure how I feel about what they do to the pacing of the movie. It would be nice to choose between the two versions. In ROTK: EE, you could watch Saruman's demise -- but you'd have the option of seeing the theatrical cut -- without that "tacked-on" feeling. But given a choice of one or the other, give me the EEs every time!
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She begged him to put a feisty female warrior in, because Arwen was too wimpy. Or is that apocryphal? Whatever, it sounds good, and Eowyn's moment of truth was my 2nd favorite scene from the books. That's one scene I hope PJ has embellished and enlarged and slo-moed to his heart's content.
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Miranda Otto is a babe of the highest order.
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the most interesting tidbit was also stated on the EE DVD's..the idea of the chronological cut of one huge 12-13 hour movie. I believe Phillippa actually goes into how the prologue would be re-edited for this version, as an example.
What I think might be a good idea is to do it like Coppola did for his Godfather chronological edits: Take it to TV. Now, hear me out--DVD would get it, too--but I think you'd get HUGE ratings if you could get someone to sponsor it commercial free (they do it for "24" they can do it for Lord of the Rings) then break the movie down into 1 or 1/2 hour episodes--and stretch it out over a week or two.
I think that would REALLY work. It'd be an event like the theatrical versions, you'd get a MUCH more episodic and probably a little more faithful adaptation of the books once you get to go back and re-edit in footage that's not even in the EE's, as well as play around with the chronology.
I doubt it would ever happen, but I think the change in presentation would be unique enough to ensure that New Line would get a return off of re-releasing what are essentially the same 3 movies that most of the world owns.
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...actually, Isreal employed women ground troops. They pulled them all out after a few weeks because the stupid men were getting killed trying to protect them. It broke down the all important "unit cohesion" and thus, didn't work. The Soviet Union had some top fighter pilot aces who were women also. Hey, women can fight, they just can't carry a two hundred pound wounded guy back to the aid station. In total war, everyone fights...young, old...men AND women. That situation has absolutely nothing to do with the right or the left but killing the enemy. Eowyn was an INDIVIDUAL who has a lot to prove though when push came to shove, it is said that the Rohirrim women could weild a blade. Besides, there the Prophecy of Glorfindel who said of the Witch King at the closing of the final battle of the Dunedain with the Witch King of Angmar (who?)"Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." Yup, tag teamed by a midget and a chick, erm, I meant WOMAN.
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At last there was something worthwhile here to read. [And I'm glad they finally let you out of that gorilla cage!] ***The LotR Supertrailer ROCKS!!!!!!!!! It made me go see LotR:FotR-EE on the big screen last night even though I had already seen that T.I. DLP presentation 13 months ago. And tomorrow -- LotR:TTT-EE!!! [No Trilogy Tuesday for this bag o' bones. I want to be wide awake for my first viewing of LotR:RotK on Wednesday.]
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women in armies today makes sense, because a soldier's main physical requirements are endurance and dexterity, which women can do just as or at least almost as well as men. on a medieval battlefield, physical strength and reach (as well as dexterity and endurance) were much more important, and women are smaller and generally weaker in terms of strength than men. not to mention that they had smaller populations to work with, and needed to keep their women at home to make sure the last man could still make babies after 999 of his fellow soldiers got axed. so in that setting, it wouldn't make any sense at all to have women out on the battlefield.
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morGoth, If you read the rest of the back history in the Silmarillion a more active Arwen makes the most sense. In previous two unions of elves and men the women shared fully in the adventure. Luthien actually going into the dungeon of Morgoth and putting him to sleep with a spell in order to steal a Silmaril and Elwing threw herself into the sea with the Silmaril and turned into a seabird and used it to find Earendil and help him get into the Undying Lands. Tolkien himself had mentioned it on several occasions when discussing the story and he attributed Arwen's small role to the fact that he was writing a story mainly about Hobbits and wanted to keep the story "Hobbitcentric" In my opinion it would have been totally appropriate to have her split from Rivendell and arrive with Haldir at Helms Deep and accompany Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead, as a surrogate for Elladan and Elrohir. In short the renewal of the Kingship of Men by the union of Aragon and Arwen is central to the events in the trilogy and the writers, contrary to any hollywood conceptions of femenism or whatever would have worked for the story, despite the protests of the Tolkien purists.
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...since many of the "men" and orcs were played by women. Bet you couldn't tell the difference.
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you can watch memento in chronological order on the region 2 dvd and also on the region 1 limited edition dvd. check it out here: http://www.dvdeastereggs.com/search.jsp?k=memento&subsearch.x=25&subsearch.y=4
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nope, i couldn't, cuz the make-up artists did a great job. not sure why that matters, tho.
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KILL A HOBBIT.mama mia.That shows you how much brains these studios have.Whoever came up with that idea,he need to be fired,tared,feathered and run out of town.As an example.You do Not mess with the most basic concepts of a wellknown&loved story.Have these people just no respect?No wonder so many bombs are made.----Thank you also for keeping Arwen out of Helms Keep.Hopefully Hollywood will learn fom this.Some respect.---I still think cutting out Saruman was a terrible idea.There was some other parts that had no need to be in TT.---Leaving the Smeagol part to TROTK is cool,open and end with the ring.
---who gave that woman a sword?stand back everyone! -
Dec 12, 2003 5:56:13 PM CST
Hey, does anyone know anything about that Butt-Numb-A-Thon that
by user id indeed!
I'd love to hear something about it. I'm surprised, this site hasn't really been talking it up that much.
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No sir, they'd never do that. We all know how much this site hates to toot its own horn. I just wish SOMEONE would tell me what Gollum thinks of AICN! And keep fucking telling me for an entire year! Now that would be good se of an overtaxed server!
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George lucas did have a woman writer and a very good one. Leigh brackett wrote "the empire strikes back". It's too bad she didn't live long enough to write "return of the jedi". She also wrote the bogart version of "the big sleep" and robert altman's "the long goodbye".
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Actually Lucas didn't like Leigh Brackett's ESB draft and it wasn't used. I think she was given a credit by Lucas as a sign of respect to her 'cos she died soon after and he'd always respected her past stuff.
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We shall see.
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Where did this mysterious babe come from? I want to know more about her.
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of Idril and Tuor. She's the only reason anyone survived the Fall of Gondolin. She indulged in all sorts of business, getting a secret escape route dug, organizing the refugees, and fighting to keep her son (a child of no importance named Earendil!) from being thrown over the wall by a jealous suitor/turncoat. AND, Idril is Arwen's great grandmother on her father's side. Galadriel, come to think of (granma) shouldn't be sniffed at either. She fought to defend her mother's people at the Kin Slaying and she crossed the Helcaraxe afterwards, and ended up leading refugees to Lorien.... All in all, lots of strong women who don't like to fight, but do it damn well when they have to.
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She came from Australia -- where she's done tons of films. www.IMDB.com
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Let me say my original questioned was only out of curiosity as to whether or not Jackson added this, and to point out how Hollywood tends to take things too far to the point where it is just downright unbelievable. But MorGoth, the Israelie example was not a matter of men being 'stupid', it was men doing what comes naturally to them. To tell a man in the prime of his life to let go of his macho, testosterone fueled masculinity is unrealistic. That is why it failed in Israel and why it would again today. As for Russia and its female pilots; well I don't really have an opinion on combat pilots. But Russia also had some women fight on the ground in WWII, but as with Israel it was a desperate situation where their very survival was at stake. Millions of Russian men had been lost to the Germans. The Soviets ended that practice after the war. So I agree that in a total war where your survival is at stake then everyone should be available to fight, but that rationale obviously doesn't apply to today and modern western armies when most of their fighting is done in foreign lands and their survival is not immediately threatened. Perryfarrell; I did not have the honor of serving, but friends of mine have. And they assure me that physical strength is still vital for ground combat troops. You can see that just by looking at all the gear the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan still have to lug around. And of course there is the matter of carrying the wounded. So the need for physical strength has not been eliminated from the modern battlefield. And it never will be as long as humans are doing the fighting.
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If george lucas didn't like leigh brackett's script for empire strike back it must have been really good. Remember lucas loved his own script for return of the jed, phantom menace etc.. Let's face it that guy can't write.
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And where the fuck can I see it?
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They shouldn't waste our time and simply recut the current movies. Shoot new scenes. Scouring of the Shire, Tom Bombadil, the stuff with Fatty Boldger and Farmer Maggot. Or just fuck all of it and make the Hobbit.
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is on the limited edition internet purchase only RotK soundtrack. But I haven't gotten mine in the mail yet, so I could be wrong!
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Forgot to explain that it is a single trailer for all three films together, as if it (like the book) hadn't been split up into 3 installments, but was actually presented in all its continuous glory.
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both versions of the limited edition soundtrack (internet only and standard available everywhere LE) have the extras DVD with the supertrailer.
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Sounds like it would be cool to watch... I just saw the TTT: EE yesterday, it was way more enjoyable than the theatrical cut. The extra scenes definitely made the film feel more "Tolkien".
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A Buddhist Nun created the Wing Chun style of Kung Fu, the style that Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan started on. Yes, women can get crotch rot from wet and mucky places, but SO CAN MEN. Yes, women can get raped, but SO CAN MEN. Women don't necessarily have all the physical strength, but they can be trained to use that strength effectively. And the reality is, if a woman has the strength to pull a trigger, and the skill to aim the gun, then there won't be a physical confrontation, besides that of the other person with the bullet. And if she's on a tank crew, or in a fighter jet, then body difference stop figuring into things that greatly. A missile doesn't go any faster because of what's between the pilots legs.
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TTT: SEV that is, and I agree that several of the additional scenes were very important, and that overall I prefer this version. The theater has managed to mess up the screening of BOTH SEVs that I've seen so far though, which doesn't bode well for Trilogy Tuesday. FotR print was either damaged or the projector did something weird (inserted glowing vertical lines over much of the last part of the film). TTT started without sound (and the house lights weren't off, either), and apparently could not be rewound due to the type of projector. So we missed all of the balrog scene's and part of the opening F&S scene's dialogue. I suppose it was hard for them to take all 14 of us in the matinee seriously....
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I didn't mean that as yet another chance for someone to have a snide dig at Lucas. Lord knows it's the predictable/fashionable thing these days. I just wanted to correct you.
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Man, I loved Fellowship (the theatrical cut; EE was okay too), but TTT in the Theater troubled me. It just didn't satisfy me the way FOTR did; it felt gappy and rushed. Well, I don't have a DVD player (or even a TV), and I just got back from seeing TTT Extended in the theater: AWESOME!!! AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME. Now THAT was a worthy part 2!!!! Man, what an improvement. Faramir? So much better! So much richer! Everything worked better, and in spite of being longer the PACING was so much better. I have returned to being full-on enthusiastic for this franchise and ROTK. Best... movies... ever!!
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What a goddamn hack. It's no wonder the screenplay to these films turned out like such crap when they didn't even hire a real screenwriter to write it. If only we all could be friends with B-movie directors who somehow stumble ass backwards into huge productions. Boyens is one who fundamentally does not understand the story, which is why we get the interminable arwen scenes. she's more interested in the appendices than the story Tolkien wrote.
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If it's indeed the same user. While I'm posting again, everyone check out this adorable picture of Liv from the premiere. I think she's doing her impression of all the girls screaming for Viggo but regardless it's beyond cute. Viggo meanwhile looks way too much like Exene Cervenka. URL broken in half so as not to streeetch the talkback:
http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-12-12T11
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I'm bubbling over. What can I say, I'm psyched!! OrionsAngel, I wouldn't be surprised to see ROTK:EE get some kind of theatrical release next December. The whole trilogy at once? It would be cool, but I dunno if they'll do it. Having seen TTT:EE, there are now two "tributes" to Tom Bombadil/Old Man Willow, one that was in the original cut (Merry and Pippin whispering about the old forest back home) and now in the EE we get a stanza of some of Tom's mad rhyming flava & an Old Man Willow surrogate. Plus some additional good pipeweed humor. Anyway check out this review, anyone who isn't flipping out for ROTK yet (again, space added to URL): http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.co
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Saruman Cut From Final 'Rings'
Dec 11, 2:05 PM EST
Associated Press
In "The Fellowship of the Ring," Christopher Lee appeared as the traitorous elder wizard Saruman, whose snowy white beard and robe hid his black-hearted intentions for Middle-earth.
In "The Two Towers," Saruman watched his power fade as enormous walking trees laid waste to his army of ugly orcs and trapped him in his stone skyscraper.
The final installment, "The Return of the King," reveals that Saruman is ... well, where is he? Certainly not in the movie.
All of the 81-year-old Lee's closing scenes were cut from "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy, a move that has angered thousands of hard-core fans and may confuse the casual moviegoer who wonders why one of the story's main villains has simply disappeared.
In the books by J.R.R. Tolkien, Saruman escapes his tower and overtakes the Shire, a peaceful Hobbit homestead. His death comes at the end of the books when Frodo and company try to eject him from their village.
That particular subplot was never filmed by director Peter Jackson. Instead, he shot an alternate climax for the wicked wizard character that he intended to place at the end of "The Two Towers."
But that didn't work out either.
"It seemed like an anticlimax," Jackson said. After that film's elaborate battle sequence in the mountain stronghold of Helm's Deep, the director said he felt audiences would want "to finish that film off as quickly as we could."
The seven-minute sequence that ends Saruman's story line was held for use near the beginning of "The Return of the King."
"As it is, it didn't work in the theatrical cut of 'Return of the King' either, because it felt like we were finishing off last year's movie instead of jumping in and setting up the tension for the new film," Jackson said.
Instead, the characters mention perfunctorily that Saruman is powerless -
garfield trailer is up and looks craptastic (bad)
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Dec 12, 2003 10:59:32 PM CST
How did I know that one of the first things I would see in this
by gil-galad12
Seriously, you're like a fly flocking to shit. You're all over this board and the other ROTK board, and for what reason? Seriously, what the hell are you doing here? Tell me. Do you search this site for a new ROTK board and immediately go to it? What do you plan to accomplish? Annoy people? Okay, here's what you got to do. Get off your computer, go outside, and learn how to blend into society. Really, for your own good.
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Having spent eight years in an Army MP division, I agree that women as front line combat troops should only be utilized as a last resort. There were a few women I knew personally that could handle the physical requirements, but it seems so unnecessary. However that is not to say that there aren't places where a female can't serve in a modern military. For instance, it's my experience that they make EXCELLENT police officers and security personal. In this job, getting in a combat situation is when someone has screwed up. I have personally seen many instances where a potentially deadly situation was defused by a female colleague. I have seen a woman MP wade into a nasty crowd in a hostile city and dispersed it through sheer force of will. That stuff about "women being more emotional" is crap, at least in my experience. If anything it was the new male enlistees all full of testoserone and macho posturing that are the real liabilities in this situation. They wanted to spray the crowd. The females went out of their way to defuse the situation before it got too ugly. And the crowd usually defered to them. As a result of these smart women , my tour in Saudi and Kuwait during the first war was completely uneventful and unadventurous, but as the Sergeants say, "If it was an adventure, Someone fucked up!" Take it for whatever it's worth.
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That trailer looks so terrible. The way Garfield dances, damn.
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Ok look. Just because women can do some of the same things as men doesn't mean that we have to demonstrate that in every single fucking movie that's made. Women don't need a heroic female character to identify with. If they did, there would have been demand from back in the movie making days. Now, that is not to say that I don't approve of the fleshed out Arwen...FOR THE MOVIES. The books are the closest things to perfection I have ever seen (I've read them roughly 2x a year since 1992-93). The movies are inevitably different. A movie has to be. I approve of Arwen's character in the movies, but for different reasons than you feminists do. Arwen's character FITS, and makes sense with Aragorn's character. I don't fucking care if it makes you left-wing bitches feel more supported. If you really wanted equality then you wouldn't cry so much about women not being featured as heroines. Women are featured as the times change, for the better. There's no reason to bitch about it. I've never, EVER held that one race or gender is better than another. So stop painting all of man (the ones with dicks) with your evil brush. If it was truly important to you to see women lifted up, you'd realize that this is gradually happening anyway. Stop whining about it, it only does your cause harm.
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...hes a fucking PLANT! we all know rotk is gonna suck, well fuck you FRODODIES!!! hahaahahahah!!! nothing you say is gonna make me see this shitty movie! lotr sucks! starwars forever. no one listen to FRODODIES,we all know he knobs on peter's peewee and loves lotr a little too much.
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Dec 13, 2003 1:06:47 AM CST
i hope you didn't come to aint it cool for information besides r
by miltonwaddams
seriously. enough.
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Eowyn doesn't go all GI Jane, thankfully. BUt she do0es get a nice moment towards the end of the flick. Checkit: http://www.hatebot.com/film/
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Has something been posted about Butt-Numb-A-Thon already? I guess I must have missed it. If so, could you please direct me to this scarce and well-hidden information?
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Good news about dropping the first draft. Read it. Hated it. Can't wait to see that tomboy beanpole Naomi Watts (babe-o-rama w/brains) in the clutches of an overgrown, overexcited, monkey. Jackson is going to kick all sorts of ass with his version of King Kong. I nominate either Jude Law, Kurt Russell, or Russell Crowe for the role of Jack Drisol. BTW - can anyone tell me if the 1933 version is out on DVD yet? If not, it'd be cool to release it as a "bonus disk" to Jackson's version.
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You've been looking for attention for a long time, little boy. Well, here's some attention: You weren't born 50 years too late, you were born 100 too late. You should've been in 1889 instead of 1989 and lived out your depressing life without cluttering up AICN messageboards. If it had been your great-granddad who'd fucked his own daughter to conceive you instead of your grand-dad I could be pissing on your grave now instead of in twenty minutes when you respond and I fucking kill you. PWNED
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Yes, Tolkien wanted to show women could have the same fighting spirit as men, but the book doesn't play exactly like she's G.I. Jane. She fights mainly for personal reasons so she's not as scared witless and at that point in story she sorta has a death-wish. For one she had help i.e. some elven magicks. I'm still waiting too see the movie so I won't spoil it here. And another she gets a lucky break otherwise she wouldn't really have any chance.
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I didn't know Christopher Lee was an aquaintance of Tolkien's. Wow.
Another thing: Did Jackson really misunderstand the text and incorrectly make Sauron a "floating eyeball" or was this an intentional change? I really doubt that he mistakenly did this, but I've heard different reasons. -
So, in short...Johnny Suede being emotional is great for remembering details...but, tends to be a huge shortcoming when immediate...important...life altering decisions must be made. What's wrong Johnny, you get uneasy when the women & fags bash back? Typical bigot bully. Tell you what, babe, next time you're sucking my dick in the Greyhound men's room I'll tip you an extra dollar to assuage your hurt feelings. I'd hate for this little tiff to affect our professional relationship.
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No, they were just in the same bar once. Lee's never said otherwise; the notion of their "acquaintance" is just run-of-the-mill sloppy journalist hyperbole.
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I love reading the gushing reviews that the FT's movie critic gives to the LOTR movies. He's such a culture snob, he said in his FOTR review that he would not condescend to read novels, which he considers ment for children. Yet he seems to love the movies.
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Dec 13, 2003 6:15:54 AM CST
yeah well, but the Saruman incident is still a very sad thing
by cuervojones
poor Dracula!
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PJ has been using his license to interpret vague points in the book though for the most part he's done an excellent job cinematically. At the end of the book, it's not certain whether Sauron has regained a humanoid form instead of staying a big eye. The transition from vanquished spirit after the battle shown in the beginning of FOTR has taken 3020 years to get to his eye shape we see. Supposedly he's trying to regain some form though at this point he can be wraithlike or a rotted zombie kind of monster. Before the battle of the Last Alliance and the Fall of Numenor, Sauron actually looked like a human who fooled the Elves into helping him make the rings.The movie hides what he looked like when he made the One Ring but he was probably human then. But after the fall of Numenor he was a wraith or a best a rotted corpse though giant since he didn't care to look normal anymore and PJ took license to make him a giant monster though hidden in armor.
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Now that's a damn shame. I can't understand this decision. Jackson has fucked-up here. In fact, it is the worst blunder in the trilogy. You simply don't write off a character like that, especially one who had a major part in the story. I guess the Ents scared him more than we thought and Saruman had to disappear without trace? Yeah, right. This cheapens the events of the previous 2 films, to discard Saruman so easily.
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In the book somewhere, Gollum speaks about the time he was tortured by Sauron in Barad Dur. He remembers the "nine fingers of the Black Hand". So Sauron was in somre sort of physical form by the time of the final battle outside the Black Gate, but no longer in a "fair form". I think that's the only mention of his body in the book. Maybe, like you suggest, he was in some sort of "animated corpse" form. Whatever it was, it scared the locals.****His "eye" (in the book) seem more like a "psychological" presence, felt from a high window of Barad Dur.******As you say, the scriptwriters had to make something cinematic from this limited information. What we get is the Electo-Optical Whatsit on top of the Tower. It's like a lot of the adaptations made by the scriptwriters: cool and cinematic in some ways, a fair distance from the book in other ways.******If you put yourself in the postion of the filmakers, some of these vaguely described things are hard to get off the page and onto the screen.*****Maybe there's a Tolkien Taliban somewhere which objects to any changes from the book. But I can only ever remember reading two or three posters in the last few years who thought that the movies shouldn't be made if the book was going to be changed.
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Thanks fro the Silmarillion suggestion
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http://homepages.nyu.edu/~scs273/01.mov
NOT FOR THE EASILY OFFENDED. -
Yes, O Greatest and Chiefest of Marsmallow Balrog Makers, you are quite correct! And while I
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I'm sure YOUR screenplay of The Lord of the Rings is MUCH better than what PB, FW and PJ did. I think millions of un-read LoTR movie fans might disagree with your "opinion." I certainly do and I'll match my understanding of the books against yours any day...bring it on. As one of the "First Read" movie fans, I think the writers have gotten the story to to the same point Tolkien did but you BP's (Book Purist) can't seen to accept that a movie adaptation will always be different than the source books.
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You've got some good lingo going there, Johnny Suede. What the hell is a Lucky Pierre? And why do you, someone supposedly repulsed by the notion of gay sex, know what one is, while I have no clue? Part of it I'm sure is my distance from the schoolyard, where so much of this kind of terminology is invented, but you still got some 'splaining to do. Come on Johnny, take this here old queen to fag school. Let me in on your secret knowledge of gay pasttimes... I'm feeling a little insecure now, like maybe I'm not the homosexual I thought I was! Don't throw me into an identity crisis, man. Share your gay wisdom.
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You know what, I've made abig part of my life doing what people told me not to do, right or wrong when it comes to a woman fighting its what you WANT to do. I've helped plenty of friend move heavy ass furniture. you know why cause I wanted to. ANd theres a lot more motivation if it was a life and death situation And as for awen having a bigger part in the movie, we'll no its not in the books, but thats not the only change. Yes woman DO need female heros. I'm a woman, amd a fan of tolkien. Aragorn and frodo make aswsome heros, but I like that I have a woman to Identify with. TWO womwne that are smart compente brave charters. and these are qualitys that ,I personaly think, are important. and oops I'm a girl.
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But that doesn't mean that already classic scenes should be butchered to add new characters, or erase old ones. Perhaps the most blatant example of this is the Flight to the Ford. The "new and improved" Flight tore the original to pieces and trashed all that was good. A change that ruined a powerful scene, simply to introduce Arwen - the weakest character in the film, imo. This was tragic. Only PC bullshit caused this. I'm aware that purists would like a carbon copy of the book, and that is definitely unrealistic, but I understand their frustration when changes are made for no other reason, it seems, than to make a change. Oh yeah, and writing sappy emotional speeches for Sam should not be considered again, EVER. Are we to believe that Faramir was all broken up inside and decides to release Frodo? hehe. Why didn't Sam cry a river when they were captured? It worked later, it might have worked then? Ok, so I'm nitpicking, but there are times in these movies that PJ took classic material that was already written (by Tolkien), and somehow dumbed it down for Hollywood. For the most part, I
think he's done a wonderful job. However, in the hands of a truly great director LOTR could have been phenomenal. -
I'm sorry, ordinarily I'm content to read other's rantings, but this interview confirms my position vis a vis Arwen in an argument I had last week--that Liv Tyler's character is a radical departure from the books to give politically correct Hollywood the "strong female hero" which is more and more becoming an enforced stereotype. Cool LOTR people, I'm not mad at you. It's not your fault. It's The Man keeping you down. But to my friends---HAHA! I WAS RIGHT!
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Dec 13, 2003 11:48:24 AM CST
If you thought there was anything wrong with the flight to the f
by daddylonghead
...you're stupid. OH GOD WHAT HAPPENED TO GLORFINDEL HOW COULD YOU CUT OUT GLORFINDEL?!?!? What are you, president of the glorfindel fan club? No. Most of you are just misogynist goofs who are threatened by women doing anything but washing your starwars sheets, packing your school lunch, and appearing naked on your computer monitor.
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"Oh yeah, and writing sappy emotional speeches for Sam should not be considered again, EVER."... dude... Sam has one of the best speeches in the film, and if it doesn't have you weeping at the emotioanlity of it all, stick some pickle juice in your eyes or something, you heartless bastard. ;) The speech works, and it's incredibly powerful, and without spoiling anything, it'll likely be the Oscar scene if the Academy feels fit to give Sean Astin some recognition.
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I think it's time for Mori and Harry to post their ROTK reviews. They've only been talking about them for the last two weeks. Quit teasing.
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I HATED it! It almost had me puking! In fact, they were handing out vomit bags in the theater... Anyway, I do agree with you - Sean Astin deserves an Oscar for performing that sentimental slush, and a second Oscar for keeping a straight face while he did so. :)
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if you're talking TTT, you're wrong. If you're talking his speech in ROTK... you're gloriously, doubly, dipped in chocolate wrong... need whipped cream? :P
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morgoth: I've never attempted to write a LOTR script or scripts. I will say, if given the same time that the filmmakers had to write their draft, I could do better. That's not boasting. There are A LOT of scrrenwriters out there who could do better, because none of those three (PJ, PB & FW) are screenwriters. People who really know writing and storytelling would understand why, to use Eternal's example, it's counter to Tolkien's story to have Arwen with Frodo on the flight to the ford. The absense of Glorfindel isn't the issue, the issue is ruining a good character moment for Frodo by making him a passenger. That scene is supposed to be frantic and terrifying. Frodo all alone on a blazing fast horse with the riders closing in and calling to him, mocking him. His last parting shot in defiance "You shall have neither the ring nor me" as he's about to collapse, is the kind of material that you don't need slo-mo and several long shots of him staring at the ring in his hand to evoke emotion. A real screenwriter wouldn't have gone on a huge detour in the middle of act 2 just because they wanted to work wargs into a scene. Even a writer with absolutely nothing invested in the story, who was merely hired to churn out an adaption, would look at chapters 5 and six of Book 3 and think "good, it won't take but a page or two to get from Edoras to the Helm's deep fight." ------Peter Jackson just has not shown himself to make good decisions on the story. In practically every place that the film is lacking, it's not because of some flaw of Tolkien, it's because PJ tried to do something on his own and it sucked. PJ has made an above average hollywood blockbuster flick when, like Eternal said, he could have made something untouchable. I will always consider these movies 'Peter Jackson's interpretation of the Lord of the Rings.' the real movies have yet to be made.
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Dec 13, 2003 1:37:08 PM CST
From a very early draft where Arwen makes an appearance at Helm'
by timbenzedrine
SCENE-- A HILLTOP NEAR HELM'S DEEP--The reunited members of the Fellowship are preparing for battle. ARAGORN has been checking out EOWYN as she adjusts her chain mail ARAGORN's eyes her intently as she bends down to tighten her bootstrap. He is so lost in his own thoughts that he doesn't hear ARWEN arrive unepectedly. ARWEN coughs, causing ARAGORN to jump) ARAGORN: (turning around startled) Oh! It's you! uh, what's up? ARWEN: I've come to see you off into battle, my King. Here, I knit you a flag. ARAGORN: Oh! It's lovely, well, uh, thanks for stopping by, got a lot work ahead of us, you know. ARWEN: (noticing Eowyn) Who's the bird? ARAGORN: (making a really bad attempt at playing it cool) Who?(looks over his shoulder and acts is if he has just seen Eowyn for the first time)Oh, her? That's uh, er, a, Eowyn, yeah, that's right, she's here with Legolas. GIMLI tries to stifle a laugh. ARWEN: (not convinced) Really? I had always thought he was...you know... ARAGORN: Oh no! Legolas? No! He and Eowyn have been quite an item, for uh, some time, I hear. (GIMLI is now snickering loudly, ARAGORN is trying to shut him up by kicking him when ARWEN isn't looking) ARWEN: Really ? Most of the Elven maids I know call him Lego-lass. Light are his pointy shoes, they say. ARAGORN: No! Not My man Legolas! He's qite the ladies elf, a real heartbreaker! (GIMLI is doing his best not to laugh out loud by stuffing the end of his beard in his mouth, ARWEN still looks unconvinced) ARWEN: Well, I don't know...ARAGORN: LIsten, er, uh, my love, we're getting ready to move out here, so why do you just head on home now? There's a good girl. LEGOLAS: (enters scene, crosses to center, and plants his hands on his hips in an extremely flamboyant manner) Hath anyone theen my ruby thlipperths?(There is a long pause as ARWEN turns to ARAGORN and looks him in the eye, ARAGORN looks very uncomfortable, beads of sweat appear on his forehead. ARWEN looks over at GIMLI, who is now doubled over with laughter.) ARWEN: Right. I'll go get my sword. (ARWEN turns and heads down the hill) Don't leave without me. ARAGORN:( calling after her) Uh Honey? Dear? She's just a work- related aquaintence, that's all! (ARAGORN turns to GIMLI, who is still doubled over,laughing uncontrolably) Oh shut up, a lot of help you are! (LEGOLAS slides up beside ARAGORN and GIMLI) LEGOLAS: Tho, what'th tho funny , you guyth? (GIMLI continues laughing, tears now rolling down his cheeks) FADE OUT
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about Aragorn tracking Gollum, and was surprised that PJ didn't include scenes of that so he could work in more of his favorite character. And then I was reminded of the weakest scene in the trilogy so far, prehaps even weaker than cutting Saruman's ending out. The scene, paraphrased: Frodo "What's that? there's something down there." Gandalf "Oh, that's gollum. Psh."
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I don't understand why no one's asking how long it will be...it's the only question I want answered. I read this interview, hoping they'd shut up about King Kong (as if it will turn out well -- I think Jackson may have to fuck one up now to prove he's human)...has anyone heard *anything*?
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You know, Ryalto, in that one scene TimBenzedrine displays better screenwriting instincts than you do. Solo Frodo at the ford? Yeah, the hobbit horsemaster outriding the Nine. Pfff. You suffer from a common Talkbacker affliction, "Hubris," aka "I could shit out a better script on the toilet-itus." To manage your disease's symptoms day-to-day, I recommend you continue wearing your same headset and smock, handing people their lunches. Thank you, drive through.
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Dec 13, 2003 2:03:37 PM CST
Frodo the "horsemaster" didn't outride the nine, you fucking mor
by ryalto 3.0
His horse did! I'm guessing you never read the books. Anyone who knows the books and films and says the film version of The Flight is better is full of shit.
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I would like to clear up an
inaccuracy in this article. And thanks to the poster who beat me to the punch by already clearing up the inaccurate mention of Lee's meeting with of Tolkien.
-PLOT SPOILERS- The article says that "In the book Saruman escapes his tower". Not true. His wizardly power is totally broken by Gandalf; his machines and Uruk armies are totally destroyed by the Ents. Only after Treebeard receives the news that the Ring has been destroyed and Sauron has been utterly vanquished does he allow Saruman to leave the tower. Saruman roams the countryside as a beggar. I think "Escapes his tower" implies that Saruman did so by exerting some remaining power, which is not true. The main reason Jackson left Saruman out of the third movie is because
of his lack of power. He has no power to effect the events of the third movie and it was time to focus all attention on Sauron.
-END SPOILERS- I find the decision regrettable but entirely justifiable from a film narrative standpoint. I have seen ROTK and it does not suffer for lacking Saruman. Nonetheless, I eagerly await his re-instatement in the DVD as his performance so far has been magnificent.***Eternal: I respect
your opinion about the Flight to the Ford change but I disagree that the reasons behind it were "PC bullshit" or "simply to introduce Arwen". Rather, I think a number of very valid concepts were accomplished by putting Arwen in Glorfindel -
Dec 13, 2003 2:41:35 PM CST
Good work as always, Mr. Beaks, but you should have written in P
by mortsleam
You know, instead of having Phillipa say, "An incredible journey" have her say, "En eencridibul jahnney." Sigh. I just love that chick's accent.
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I've read that the only reason Jessica Lynch was in that unit was because the Risk Rule was lifted during the Clinton administration against the wishes of the military. But Lynch's case is interesting in that some in the Pentagon and most in the media were eager to publicize it. They were so eager that most of the early reports about her actually fighting were completely wrong. The media wanted a female warrior, facts be damned, so they accepted the story with little suspicion. That brings me to your statement about being glad that these 'warriors' are on the front lines. The media similarly, and intentionally I believe, blurs the line between what the men and women in uniform actually do. Women are obviously soldiers, and many are serving in a non-combat capacity at the front. But the word 'warrior' brings to mind something more specific than 'soldier'; namely that of a combatant. By that definition women are not warriors, and they are not on the front lines fighting. But from many media reports you'd swear that women were serving in frontline infantry units. As to your point about smaller framed men who serve in combat units: Yes, but they do not have standards lowered just because they are smaller. And its about physiology; men simply have more upper body strength. An average small framed man will still be stronger than the average woman. As to men's urge to protect women being more cultural than instinctual; we'll just have to disagree there too. It has probably existed since the days of the cave people. And in virtually every civilization it has been the case that men fight. This can't always come from cultural influences; it must come from something more basic like biology. As to your comments about hoping that women get more battlefield promotions: Well you've just hit on one of the major motivations behind the push for women in combat, which is the fact that the senior officers are still overwhelmingly male, and that most of them got that way through combat experience,and that it must therfore be unfair to women to deny them this career-advancing role. Well even if that is so, then so what? Since the military is a unique institution I don't think its reasonable to apply the same civilian standards of equal opportunity to it. I mean the goal is to have the best, most effective, most efficient, most ready fighting force possible. That should override any other concerns. And if one is of the opinion that the cause of women's rights in this country will never be fulfilled until women are in combat, and then on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then such a person is farther left on the political spectrum than Barbara Streidand. As to your belief that the problem with women in combat is with men and not women: Well, again there are the undeniable physical differences that supercede any possible bias. But lets assume that you are partially correct. Then again so what? The military will always be predominantly male. No amount of gender norming in schools or Alias-like fantasy characters will ever change that. Men will always be more drawn to the military than women, especially the combat units. So its probably wise to cater to this inherent masculine nature of the military. Its not reasonable to try and get men to change the very nature that makes them compatible with combat duty in the first place. It brings to mind that scene in StarShipTroopers where the men and women are showering together, seemingly oblivious to the fact there naked members of the opposite sex all around them. That is a fantasy. It is unrealistic to think that any amount of 'education' will ever change basic human nature. And finally, with regards to your belief that women can 'kick ass just as well as their male counterparts': Do you really believe that? Its obviously not true. Now are there some women who can fight better than some men? Yes, of course. But on average men are simply stronger and faster than women. That alone precludes the possiblity that women can kick ass just as well as men, all else being equal. You can look at it on that average, general basis, or you could consider cream of the crop examples, like for example could you imagine any female martial artist challenging Bruce Lee when he was alive? The fact is that there are simply things in this world that men are better suited for, and are thus better at, just as there are things women are better suited for and are thus better at. That men have more capactiy for violence and fighting skills is just common sense. Now its a good thing that women and girls are encouraged to pursue their dreams, and in many civilian and military jobs its good that old, illogical barriers have been removed. But for some barriers the logic behind them is unassailable. And no matter how many times the platitude that 'women can do anything men can do and can do it just as well or better' is repeated by the media or hollywood it will not ever make it true.
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"the terror of the Nazgul, the effect of the stab wound on Frodo and Aragorn
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Gandalf himself suggests that Saruman used his Voice to, over time, convince Treebeard to let him go, so you could say he "escaped." When the others caught up with them on the road, they made the unwise decision of letting him go on, but they were facing the moral dilemma of not having anything else to do with him. He still had some nastiness left inhim. If one were to view all three of these films as one big moive (as the PJ fanatics often crow about when the films are criticized) then the sudden dissappearance of a Major Villain in the middle of the story is very very sloppy work. Does ROTK need a Smeagol/Deagol scene? Hell no. Did TTT need Galadriel's 10 minute recap, or the useless 5 minutes where the elves show up, or the 20 minutes with the wargs and brego the wonderhorse, or the 10 minutes of awful Arwen scenes? hell no. Could the filmmakers have made much better use of their precious, finite screentime? Hell yes. Does their poor editing, storytelling and decision-making severly detract from the films? Indeed.
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Ya know, I never got around to actually giving my take of this thing last month, so instead of relating my experiences watching it in the theater last night (long story short: great!) I
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I really don't see the point of her inclusion in that scene at all. Anywhere else, but NOT there. I'm not a purist who wants everything to be lifted directly from the book, but when the existing material is FAR better than what made it to the screen then I'm not going to defend it. Frodo at the Ford is
powerful because he IS alone. When Arwen comes along that is destroyed. Improvements are one thing, crippling an already great scene is quite another. Even Bakshi's animated LOTR had a decent ford sequence, replete with Frodo defiance, and kept most of the Nazgul dialog intact: "Come back, to Mordor
we will take you!", etc. Frodo was barely conscious at the ford in the movie. This made him seem more like some poor sucker dragged along for the ride, not able to offer even token resistance. This hurt his character. Also, the Flight suffered because the Nazgul are so damn stupid. I agree with Ryalto. In PJ's FOTR these guys ride around like clowns. I'm not sure, but are the main characters supposed to be afraid of them? I would never have guessed after seeing them bungle so much. Anyway, I've stated that I think PJ did a good job overall, but some of the decisions made are very unfortunate. In every instance that PJ altered something the trilogy suffered. Just maybe the book IS superior and should not be touched, unless absolutely necessary. Ever think of that? No Saruman in ROTK (except dvd) is yet another example of an important character being "forgotten". I mean, how can you write this guy out after he was so instrumental in the story so far, with just a casual comment "he's contained", or something? This sums up Jackson's whole approach - can't write it, ignore it. -
Dec 13, 2003 3:54:47 PM CST
Oh man, don't remind me: "the 10 minutes of awful Arwen scenes"
by eternal
Those were pretty damn bad, I must say. I hit the FF button everytime they appear. I can't bear to watch them. Arwen might have filled some role in FOTR but in TTT she just drags the movie down, even if it is for only 10 minutes. Ten minutes down the drain, though.
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The TTT:EE commentaries and a few recent interviews indicate that New Line had a lot to say about how these films were made, especially in the early stages. As everyone knows, in 1998 New Line was a small player with a few successfull teen comedies. No blockbusters, but some sucessful mid-size movies - the exact details are on IMDB. It put up $80M and a consortium of distributors, (never famous for daring movie innovations) put up about $200M. PJ was a director who had limited track record and very limited clout with New Line. He, Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens had a two-film script. It had been written with a view to encouraging a major investment for untested filmmakers. It was apparently very different from the ultimate script as you would imagine. You would guess that it had quite a few "safe" "generally appealing" elements not in the books. When shooting started they were still frantically trying to it turn into a three movie script, and they made major changes during filming. *********New Line needed to be very cautious, it was a huge risk for the company. They wanted to be reasonably conservative and they only had one big name star (Liv Tyler). A central love story involving the big female star was inevitable. Or else, no movies. So it seems the writers didn't really have much choice but to make it work with Arwen as a central character as best they could within the spirit of the book. That was the only basis on which they could raise finance. New Line were working hard to protect their investment.******When the first film was a success, PJ had more clout, but the principal photography was over. Only limited additional pickups were possible. PJ's companies and New Line were still exchanging Nasty Lawyers Letters over money for digital effects, more pickups etc. *******So the writers had a more difficult job than maybe now appears in avoiding Hollywood Popcorn moments. ****** Phillipa Boyens seems to be blamed by some people for unpopular changes, but as the TTT:EE commentaries show, PJ demanded some scenes - like Gollum's beating by Faramir's men and Fran Walsh wrote jointly throughout with Phillipa Boyens. From those commentaries and other interviews, Phillipa Boyens comes across as a total Tolkien fanatic and totally immersed in the fine detail of the book, which she has read numerous times.******** So, it looks like it was mainly market forces that got Arwen to the Ford. You can imagine a great filmed version of those scenes without Arwen, and maybe that's how PJ would have done it if he had the money and the clout to insist it be filmed as per the book. ******The unpopular changes from book to movie in TTT apparently were partly due to (a) the need for a fully stand-alone movie with a beginning, a climax and an end which could work in the theatres - which led to the Warg attack etc and (b) some decisions they made about Faramir's character - which they never seemed to work out fully until it was too late to re-shoot.*****Readers of the books genrally seem to have more problems accepting TTT than non-readers.*****Like Elanor, I hope that eventually we will see a different version of these movies from another director, now that the commercial viability of filming the books has been proved beyond doubt. Whether the next version will be closer to the books, better or worse than PJ''s version is anybody's guess. But chances are it will be a major director with a huge budget. Might even get to see The Scouring!
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Dec 13, 2003 4:33:06 PM CST
Eternal, just by chance I re-read the Ford scene last week ..
by irritable
I was killing time before RotK by reading the whole book again. It's a great scene in the book and reveals a lot about Frodo which you and Elanor have touched on. *****One of the problems with the filmed version is that Arwen is much more of a warrior character than she ultimately became - because at the time of filming the scene, it was planned she would be in the Helm's Deep battle. As things turned out, she ended up as a non-warrior character, sitting around Rivendell making Aragorn's standard and having telepathic dates with him. So we're left with an odd character change - because of the decisions to re-write along the way.
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Er, does some Supervising Adult know you've got the computer turned on?
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I always feel rather bad for PB when people start laying into her and blaming her for the changes. Some people even blame her for the changes and then accuse her of just tagging along for the ride to fame, never seeing the inherent contradiction in that argument. All of the writers together have done a massive task well. Not perfectly, but not poorly either. --- I've gotten used to Arwen at the Ford, and it works with how everything is accelerated in the film (F's illness, for example). Since they didn't want to have them take 14 days to get to Rivendell from Weathertop, and it's hard to show someone slowly succumbing to creeping cold they made it rather more debilitating. I would have preferred Defiant Frodo and Frodo invoking Varda. But, upon reviewing the first two films, especially the SEVs (SEEs!), I realized that he is still portrayed as very brave, it's just much more subtle and restrained. Ironic, isn't it? All his big flourishes are taken out, including his folly. It shifts much more quickly than the book into the grinding burden of the ring.
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with it to make it more explicit. There's some debate, but I always read that part of the book this way: Arwen declares that she will not take the ship (or any ship) West, and she does not. When Aragorn dies, she will die (as elves can) from sorrow soon after (she lays herself down on Cerin Amroth, where they had plighted their troth and passes from the world). Her spirit then will travel to the Halls of Mandos (as all spirits do, regardless of race), but instead of waiting to be re-incarnated (as elves often/usually are), she has chosen to pass beyond into the unknown that is the death of Men, and the Gift of Eru. Only one other elf has done this, her great great grandmother Luthien. This way, she will not be separated from Aragorn, even by death.
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Bless you, irritable, for posting that reminder of the actual history of this project. Your synopsis is accurate from everything I have read.***And djinnj, thanks for sticking up for PB. I have been lax in
responding to the posts bashing her and I'm glad to see her supported. She was hired specifically because she knew Tolkien inside and out and it is easy to hear in her words the love she bears the book.***mort - so glad you got to see the SEE (that's what I'm calling it, but it's hardly universal!) I will be seeing it tomorrow with two major geek friends by my side.***eternal: thank you for responding in kind to my post. I certainly agree with you that Arwen at the Ford changes Frodo's character drastically from the book. I, too, would have loved to see Elijah call upon Elbereth while facing down the Nine. I am aware of just how powerful the scene is as written and would have preferred to see it just that way. I am not suggesting that Arwen at the Ford is a "better". Hardly. But I don't find it as hard to step into the shoes of these filmmakers as you do. Given the circumstances (as concisely stated by irritable) they were faced with and the laying-of-tracks-while-the-train-was-moving dynamic, I continue to be impressed with the choices they made, even though I mourn the loss of countless beautiful scenes.***Ryalto: the trouble with you has always been that you have no interest in discussion or debate. You only want to bitch. But it's my own fault for engaging you. I shall stop. -
I second djinnj's post about Arwen and would only add this. At the end of the second movie, Arwen does listen to her father's advice and start off with a group of Rivendell elves for the Grey Havens to take ship to Valinor. I won't spoil anything in ROTK for you but there is more.***As far as how
"mortality" is administered to an elf, this is a very cloudy area. In Luthien's case, when her mortal lover, Beren, died in her arms, she sang a song of love and sorrow that was so beautiful that the Valar were moved to grant her request and allowed her to be "changed" to a mortal. In Arwen's case, in the book, she makes "the choice of Luthien" in Lothlorien when she and Aragorn vow to cleave to each other, it always seemed to me that it wouldn't "kick in" unless she would actually marry him. Daddy Elrond is reluctant to let her go to anyone less than the renewed King of Gondor and Arnor. What happens in the films will probably further cloud the issue, even though it isn't technically "wrong" in my opinion. I would be happy to discuss this further after you have seen the third movie. I hope by then maybe morG and Moaters (dare I hope for Vanyar?) will chime in. -
Djinnj, I agree that the film works on its own terms in its depiction of Frodo without the scenes of his courage and his folly which were in the book. A problem which the screenwriters have spoken of, which I am sure you will have heard about in the DVD commentaries, is the depiction of the Ring as "evil". In retrospect, they may have worried too much that cinema audiences wouldn't understand how powerful and malignant the Ring was despite its innocuous appearance. I suspect they thought that if Frodo had behaved as he did in the book, audiences might have underestimated the power of the ring So, as you point out, PJ & Co made Frodo much more passive - at and after Weathertop - and this fitted in with the introduction of Arwen. (And of course Frodo was also, for reasons of commercial appeal, portrayed as a person aged in his early 20s, rather than as a 50 year old - and this makes a real difference.) But they may gone further than necessary because many reviewers of FotR griped to the effect: "yeah, we get it, it's evil and powerful". ********In TTT, they showed the power and malignancy of the ring primarily by showing Frodo becoming an "addict" personality - something which Fran Walsh has spoken about in some detail on quite a few occasion - as if she had some personal knowledge of someone affected by addiction, or dealing with an addict.********I strongly agree with you and elanor that PB has been give an unfairly bad rap. It may be because she has taken on more of the burden of publicity than Fran Walsh who has in general kept a very low publicity profile despite her huge input into the films.********Finally, djinnj, did Idril Celebrindal have to make any "choice" like Arwen and Luthien which affected her history after sailing into the West?*********elanor and J_D, "very cloudy area" is so right! Do such elves die by act of will, or have they been changed physically? Elros, Elrond's brother, made the choice and lived until the age of 500 years. But the impression is that he was physically affected by age and took the noble course, like Aragorn - 65 or so Numenorean generations later - of dying by act of will before decrepitude set in. Interesting that the book was published not long after Crick and Watson's famous paper on the structure of DNA. None of the implications of that discovery found their way into Tolkien although in many respects he applied known natural laws - subject to the fantasy rules he invented.********J_D, although TTT implies that Arwen will live long after Aragorn's death - this is somewhat different from how the Appendix on Aragorn and Arwen deals with the matter.
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Tuor felt age starting to creep up on him, so he built a ship to sail away (giving in to his love of the sea). The ending in the Silmarillion has he and Idril leaving together, but in the Book of Lost Tales, there are a few versions. On has it that Idril saw him departing and threw herself into the sea to swim after him. They were never seen again "[b]ut in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men." An interesting conclusion since this would mean that Eru had a hand in it, since the Valar couldn't take away the Gift of Eru. On the other hand, the elves who made the songs would have no real information about it.
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The real reason Elanor is quitting arguing with Ryalto is because she knows he has schooled her and spoken the truth.
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Djinnj, thanks for that. Didn't occur to me that Eru had to have a hand in Tuor's ultimate fate.********Shit_Dog, Ryalto 3.0 pointed out the logic of the book vs. the movies and said, and I'm roughly summarising, that better film-makers could have successfully retained many more scenes from the book. But these statements of opinion were put as if they were incontestable facts. Having read through Ryalto's posts here I'm sure he can explain and defend his opinions in detail, but he hasn't taken that course yet. Elanor said (and I'm roughly summarizing again) if you say your opinions are incontestable, there's no point in having a debate. So the match was called off.
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My wife, who was never particularly interested in Tolkein and couldn't be bothered to see TTT in the theater, loved TTTEE so much that she watched all the documentaries and commentaries. So, I think that's a pretty good argument for the power of the movie, especially w/non-Tolkeinites. In other news, re: the whole "women in combat" argument - perhaps we should refine the terms of the debate. The arguments I'm hearing are not against women in combat, but against women in the infantry. Is that correct? As a career naval aviator, I've flown with (and trained) people of both genders. I'm here to tell you that there is absolutely no difference in skill, motivation, or emergency responsiveness between men and women. When it comes to adaptability, women have an edge in that they generally can take more Gs and have better fine motor skills, according to the Navy's aeromedical folks. My subjective impression is that women, who are free of the pernicious effects of testosterone, are much less likely to pull stupid stunts and break rules just to show how studly they are.
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In response to a comment made a while ago by goldboink, The subject was "A more active Arwen." Just wanted to make a small correction because it was bothering me. Earendil and Elwing weren't a union of elves and men. Earendil is a half elf and Elwing is 3/4 I think (granddaughter of Beren and Luthien) and they both ended up choosing to be elves. The two other unions of elves and men besides Aragorn and Arwen were Beren and Luthien and Tuor and Idril. Also, it is debatable wether or not Galadriel crossed the Helcaraxe with the other Noldor. There is an alternate version of the story in "Unfinished Tales" that was written at a later date than the one in the Silmarillion and was probably the one that Tolkien intended to publish. Christopher used the earlier one because it was in a more finished state. In the Unfinished Tales version, Galadriel sailed to middle earth with Celeborn before the kinslaying took place, having some time before the destruction of the trees asked permission from Manwe to do so. I like this version better. In this version it is also stated that Galadriel is the greatest of all the elves who have ever lived, with the possible exception of Feanor, though she was wiser than Feanor.
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Also, in response to Djinnj ( "I think the film will be taking a few liberties"). I really don't think that the souls of all races go to Mandos, just the elves. The souls of men leave the earth upon death adn go into the unknown. This would also be that fate of Arwen's soul, since she chose to be counted among the race of men, like Luthien and Elros. And I don't ever rememer reading anything about elves being reincarnated. It is my understanding that they dwell in the halls of Mandos until the ending of the world. I think Luthien is the only elf who had been "reincarnated" and she was really just given a second chance at life, and she chose to be human in this second chance.
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Elwing was 12.5% Maia (taking a strict arithmetical approach) as well as being of mortal and elf descent. *****The last writings of Tolkien, where he amended the story of Galadriel, cast her character in LotR in a somewhat different light. There's a debate whether those late writings are part of the canon but it's a deeper version of her story.*******There's some interesting stuff about the reincarnation of slain elves in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar and, as I recall, in the Tolkien Letters. Glorfindel of Rivendell was the re-incarnated Glorfindel of Gondolin, who killed a Balrog.******As you say, Luthien had a slightly different history and was not "permanently" reincarnated.
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This is the description in the Silmarillion of Mandos in 'Of the Beginning of Days': "Namo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor. He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar.... Vaire the Weaver is his spouse, who weaves all things that have ever been in Time in her storied webs, and the halls of Mandos that ever widen as the ages pass are clothed with them." Then, in 'Of Beren and Luthien' it says: "For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return." .... "Therefore he summonded Beren, and even as Luthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Iluvatar. He went therefore to Manwe... and Manwe sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Iluvatar was revealed." Luthien, of course, chose to be re-incarnated with Beren for a mortal span and then depart to a final death with him. In fact, Eru must have been involved with Arwen's choice as well, since none of the Valar could take away her immortality. ---- There is a hint of re-incarnation floating through the Sil, in statements like: "But not until the End, when Feanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin...." from 'Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor'. But there's more information in the Unfinished Tales and in Tolkien's published letters. In Letter 131 he says: "The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world... to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning...." and then in Letter 181 he says about the elves: "They are therevore 'immortal'. _Not_ 'eternally', but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When 'killed', by the injury or descruction of their incarnate form, they do not escape from time, but remain _in_ the world, either discarnate, or being re-born." etc. etc. It's one of the more interesting aspects of ME theology!
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Time will show that these films saved cinema at a time when there were signs that looked pretty grim (eg. Matrix and Starwars sequel flops). That they could take epic litrature and convert it to such an exeptional series of films should not have been possible; yet they did it! God bless everyone who had anything to do with these films...
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Yes, I was referring to ground combat; infantry, artillery, armor, and special forces units.
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Of course you side with elanor, you boring old fart. You've been bumming up to the LOTR geeks on these boards for years, why stop now? Your opinions are shit, and that is why Shit Dog exists: to point out the bummer boys amongst the AICN crowd. You are today's bummer boy, asshole.
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Creo que Peter Jackson ha realizado una excelente versi
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Okay, so humans go through the halls of Mandos when they die, but generally depart from the earth soon after, whereas elves remain there until the end of the world unless they are reincarnated(as Glorfindel might have been). I suppose dwarves would have the same fate as men. Except I guess they believe that Durin is continually reincarnated or something along those lines. And what about orcs? If they are elves that have been changed by morgoth, and only Iluvatar has the power to grant or take away immortality, then it would stand to reason that orcs would remain immortal. But that doesn't seem right. Hmm.
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Although the orcs in origin were thought to be corrupted Elves captured by Melkor before the beginning, as I recall they were also described as "bred in mockery of Elves" because Melkor could not create original life forms like Eru. (Similarly, Trolls were bred in "mockery" of Ents). So they seem to have been some sort of ongoing genetic experiment originally based on Elf material. They apparently lacked the fea of elves.******On the other hand, Aule (a Vala inferior in power to Melkor)created the dwarves originally, but there are hints that when Eru found discovered this, he may have introduced a few design improvements when he gave permission for them to be awoken. Cheers.
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The elves never get to see all of it, and Men never return from it. T said that the Eldar didn't understand what happened when Men died, so that's why their writings about it are obscure. Then he said somewhere else that Men didn't understand what happened when the Eldar died, so their writings were by necessity mysterious! I have the impression that everything that dies goes to Mandos, regardless of what it is, and that there are 'waiting rooms' and doorways that exist for each. And each would be unknown to any other because they wouldn't notice each other (sort of like the Elysian Fields) while waiting around for whatever happens next. Durin was either reincarnated or his folk believed he was. Dwarves increase so slowly! Incidentally, T considered hobbits a kind of Man (like the Petty Dwarves, vs Durin's folk).
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...now, like a good mongrel, continue licking your private parts. It's what yo do best.
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Yes, the LotR movies are very good. Yes, George Lucas missed a golden opportunity with the Star Wars prequels. Had he taken them more seriously when writing and directing them, or had he hired someone else to do those things for him from his story idea (ala Empire Strikes Back), and had he not insisted on pursuing 'styles' he claimed to know would alienate alot of the audience, then the prequels would probably have been bigger than LoTR, Harry Potter, and Spiderman (yes I know TPM was by far the biggest of all these movies domestically but I'm talking overall series). But he didn't. He went for a single and double when he could have had homeruns. He needlessly pandered to children. He didn't exploit the abilities of his very talented cast. He went for cgi overkill. Now we'll never know how big the prequels could have been. There will always be an unknown amount of unfulfilled potential with the prequels. But what is done is done. As for LoTR; the series is excellent and will no doubt have a high place in film history. But as far as them saving cinema? Come on. The film industry would be alive and well had LoTR never come along.
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And another thing, the Star Wars prequels were the fartherest thing from a commercial flop. Same thing for the Matrix sequels, especially Reloaded. TPM's domestic/worldwide gross was 431/925 (the domestic would actally adjust to over $530 million in today's dollars). For AOTC it was 310/640. Even critcally the response was slightly more positive than negative. If audience polling is valid and accurate then the vast majority of those who actually saw them liked them. But anyway, back to money. The prequels have generated billions in revenues, even though they are not nearly as good as they could have been, imo. Maybe that's part of the problem. Lucas can put forth a half-assed effort and still make himself richer by the hundreds of millions. Maybe if TPM had truly been a flop then Lucas would have let someone else write and direct the next two.
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Actually, it wasn
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First of all, my point about the press was that they wanted the early reports about Lynch to be true, because they could use it to push for the cause of women in combat, just as the NYTimes did. And I wasn't blaming Lynch for her capture. I just repeated something that I had read that said that the had the old Risk Rule not been lifted in the early 90s then Lynch would not have been eligible to serve in that unit. I noted that the Rule was lifted against the wished of the military, so if you want to get political I guess you could say that was indicative of the arrogant attitude towards the military that marked the early part of the Clinton administration. As for my comment about 'warriors': I did not mean it to diminish certain soldiers. Obviously the military is a huge organization and all jobs w/in it are important. I only used the term 'warriors' as an attempt to separate the soldiers who actually do the heavy fighting from those who do not. And those who do the frontline fighting are men. As for the ability of men and women to kick ass being balanced by guns: Obviously marksmanship is important for a combatant, but your point would have more weight if there weren't more to being in a fighting unit. They must still carry heavy equipment. They must still be able to remove a wounded soldier. And there is still the possiblity of close, hand to hand fighting where weight and brute strength would be most likely to determine the winner. Think of the brutal scene in Sv Pv Ryan where the German stabs the Jewish American. In those things marksmanship will not help, but upper-body strength will. And in the larger sense, this was what I was talking about when I pointed out the obvious--that men have a greater capacity and potential to 'kick ass. ' As for what I base my views on and my openmindedness: Sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't have my opinion on this matter delivered to me by Rush Limbaugh or Hannity. As I said earlier, I didn't serve, and largely as a result of that I tend to base my opinions on military matters on the views of those who have. That is the case here. And its safe to say that the overwhelming majority of military personnel, current and former, that I've heard address this matter believe that ground combat units should not be opened to women. And to further destory the caricature you have of me, I have read and listened to the arguments put forth by the other side. I have considered what you have said. Then, as anyone with an adequate level of intelligence would do, I think about it for myself. Having done that I must agree with what most in the military have to say about this. So, sorry, I didn't get my views from talk radio. And I accept you preemptive apology to that matter. But since you saw fit to speculate as to my motives, I'll do the same, and I apologize in advance if I'm wrong: One thing that would lead me to believe that your views are not without some left of center ideological basis is the seeming comfort you would have in forcing this radical change onto the military without any regard or respect for what those in the military actually have to say about the matter. That brings to mind Clinton and homosexuals in the military. Maybe Clinton was right, maybe he was wrong, but he announced this intended policy change w/o so much as consulting with the military. It was seen as a sign of disrespect and one of the reasons his relationship with the military got off to a rocky start. Say what you want about Reagan, BushI, and BushII, ( and I'm not a big fan of any of them)at least they didn't try and force such an unwanted social policy on the military. Moreover, when I hear you say something like 'women can kick ass just as good as men' (again if you were referring ONLY to marksmanship then I apologize, but that's a general statement that I take to encompass fighting in general) then I suspect that you subscribe to a far-left ideology that some feminist champion that holds that men and women are equal in all areas, and that any differences are of gender (i.e. socially and culturally constructed) and not from some more basic, natural cause. That is absurd. It is so absurd that I'm sure thats not what you meant. Which leads me to 'common sense' It is common sense that, on average, men and women are different. Men are better suited for some things while women are better suited for others. Call me narrow minded if you want, but that is something most people just know as fact. It is something that begins manifest very early in life with little girls and little boys, and something that becomes unavoidable once puberty sets in. I don't see that as falling victim to platitudes, but rather of believing what is plain for all to see. As for me not being capable of considering other points of view. Well, I already said that I do, but anyway that's not the issue. That is something people often say to someone who disagrees with them. No, the real issue is that after having considered other points of view I still don't agree with you. I could say the same about you. As far as anyone with the 'talent, moxy, and capablity' being eligible for the job: Well how does that fit with your stated agreement that its not a good idea for women to be in ground combat units? Anyway, that is always one of the pro arguments, that there are women out there who can do it w/o lowering standards, who are exceptions to the rule that women lack the upper-body strength to do the job. Well, whenever such a person comes along then it will be something to consider, but even then I contend that you just can't ignore the possible impact that it would have on the men since combat units will always be almost completely male. As for your looking to history: That's good. You'll see that women in combat is an aberration. Israel found it was not a good idea. Russia abadoned its small use after the threat to their survival was eliminated. The two foremost western armies today (US and UK) don't allow it. In the few historical examples of women in combat the most consistent factor is the desperate nature of the conflict for the side doing it. So if the US is ever invaded by a foreign power and our military is near defeat, then I say arm everyone and fight to the death. As for Arwen's role being expanded: Well I was originally questioning the role of Eowyn in the books, but as far as Arwen goes I'm all for anything that gives Liv Tyler more screen time. I don't know what the Ford of Bruinen scene is you speak of. I've seen the movies, but haven't read the books. Finally, as to anti-PCness becoming ingrained in people: I disagree. I wish it were true. If you disagree then just pay attention the next time a major newspaper or news program does a story about, for example, immigration. PC sentiments and platitudes will dominate it. Just as it will for any discussion having to do with gender, race, ethnicity, etc. And finally, as to my political leanings: Well I would take Bush over any of the nine Democrats, but it wouldn't be a vote made out of passion for Dubya.
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Regardless of anyone's opinion on women in combat in the REAL world, Tolkien wrote Eowyn's scenes based on HIS vision of what the character should be. As far as the book goes, Eowyn disguises herself as Dernhelm, a male warrior, to accompany Theoden into the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. When the Lord of the Nazgul descends on Theoden, only Merry and the disguised Eowyn remain; the men have all been killed or carried off by their terrified horses. The Nazgul Lord kills Theoden's horse with a "black dart," and while Rohan's king lies dying under his horse and Merry is "blind and sick" with horror, Eowyn commands the Black Captain to "Leave the dead [Theoden] in peace." He responds by threatening her with unimaginable torment by Sauron, but she stands fast, threatening to "smite you, if you touch him." The Nazgul's winged beast attacks Eowyn, and she cuts off its head. The Nazgul then attempts to kill her with his mace, but hits her shield, shattering it and breaking her arm. As he prepares to to deal the final blow, Merry, who has been inspired by Eowyn's bravery, stabs him in the knee. The Nazgul stumbles forward and Eowyn kills him with her sword. It's a powerful, inspiring scene in the book, which you probably should have read or researched before making your earlier, ill-advised, G.I. Jane comment. (BTW, I don't know how this scene plays on film, but I hope it's done justice -- Merry is my favorite hobbit and so this is one of my favorite scenes in the books). As for all this nonsense about Jessica Lynch, the media frenzy was driven by the Pentagon, and it was not done to promote women as warriors, it was done to give the American public a success story in the hope of drumming up support for an unpopular war. The Pentagon's motivation actually was to hype the the rescue effort, not Lynch. The media ran with an inaccurate, Lynch-centric story because (a)the Army was releasing information before it had all the facts (b) in the interest of feeding the Internet, 24-hour news channels and a largely ignorant public, media outlets of all stripes no longer fully research their stories before publishing or broadcasting them and (c) human interest is what sells, and Lynch is cute, from Small Town America and, most importantly, survived severe injuries in harrowing conditions. As for the bravery under combat conditions, Lynch has gone on record as saying Lori Ann Piestewa is one of her heroes, for remaining calm during the ambush and protecting her. Of course, Piestewa died along with all of the male soldiers in Lynch's humvee. So what's the point of all this? That the "should women be warriors" argument probably can't be won by any side. In this case, both men and at least one woman performed ably and bravely under the worst of circumstances, and in the end the only soldier who survived was the one who lived through the crash and never fired a shot. That's called luck, and as anyone who has survived a firefight will tell you, that's often the deciding factor in who lives and who dies. Though the arguments about size and upper-body strength have some merit, the truth is that all men aren't equal in these departments, as your own "Saving Private Ryan" argument proves -- being a man didn't help the soldier who got killed. Also, not every frontline soldier carries heavy equipment. Should women fight on the front lines? I don't know; however, the arguments you have used have failed to prove your point that they shouldn't.
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To address the whole conservative vs. liberal issue, I have to comment on your statement: "Say what you want about Reagan, BushI, and BushII, ( and I'm not a big fan of any of them)at least they didn't try and force such an unwanted social policy on the military." This is true. However, they all tried to push their unwanted religious, moral and social policies on the public at large, which is while they (or at least the Bushes) have elicited such contempt from the roughly 50% of Americans who do not want the government to tell them how to live. Which has always made me wonder, if the Republican party is supposedly the party that champions less governmental interference in people's lives, why are they always trying to enact policies that do the very opposite? As least the Democrats (which I am NOT) are honest about their agenda ...
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Who dares to dis' me fair Hobbit lass? Shit Dog (GREAT handle by the way Wooo Hoo brother!) and Ryalto ain't fit to sniff her dainty, furry, little Hobbit feets I tells ye! Much less engage in a logical, civilised debate. These crack heads keep coming on here, for what sort of gratification I cannot fathom, spouting the same old tired "These movies are crap! Why can't all you millions of idiots out there who like them just SEE that I'm right about this - FACT!" rhetoric over and over and over and over and over and ovzzzzzzzzz... *SNORE* A, ahem... where was I? Oh yeah; seriously, what do you guys get out of this? Why would ANYONE waste this much time on something the purportedly despise? It just doesn't make sense kids . You could at least have some manners for cripes sakes. Shit, go for a walk, read a book, smell the flowers, do SOMETHING else. Or even better, go spew your particular brand of anonymity-fueled bile to someone in person and see how fast you get your ass kicked. *** Elanor, dear Bywater Belle, I will most certainly
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My first post was merely questioning whether or not this Eowyn moment was in the book or not. I didn't know, that is why I asked someone who had read the books. Maybe I'll read them someday. I don't care that such a moment is in the book or movie; they are fantasies after all. My only concern was that if the scene was not in the book that Jackson had then cheaply included it to go along with the trend of female warriors in movies and tv today. As for Jessica Lynch, let me say again that my point was that many in the media were ecstatic to have a story that seemed to show a woman engaging in ground combat with the enemy. And as I said, some editorialized in favor of opening up ground combat units based on what turned out to be bogus information. As for the size and upper-body strength arguments having 'some merit': Well I don't think I mentioned size, but the upper-body strength factor has alot of merit. It is a decisive factor. Yes, not all men are the same size but you can bet that exceptions would not be made for a 'smaller' guy. As for the Saving Private Ryan scene: Well that was to point out the possible brutal nature of a hand to hand engagement as a counter to those who seem to think that technology has somehow replaced the need for muscle power on the battlefield. And yes the American lost; to another man. As for every frontline soldier not carrying heavy equipment: Mabye that wasn't the best description I could have used. I was referring to the gear that every infantry soldier carries. Isn't it over 40 or 50 pounds? As for my not proving my case: Well I shouldn't have to. Since it is the opposite view that seeks to implement a radical change, it should be up to them to prove why its a good idea, why its necessary, and why what has worked for all of history should be changed when there is no need for it.
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As for your comment about the last 3 Republican Presidents trying to force unwanted social policy on the public: Could you be more specific? Do you speak of abortion? If so, then you should do some research and you'd find that its an issue that either side can claim majority public support for their position. The left can rightly claim that most Americans think that abortion should be legal. But the right can correctly claim that the overwhelming majority thinks that there should be more restrictions on abortion than exist today. What has W Bush done on this? He signed a partial birth abortion ban, and guess what? The majority agrees that they should be banned. All 3 sought to cut public funding for abortions, and again that probably has majority support. As for judges and abortion; it is the left that puts forth a false scenario of rightwing judges destroying abortion rights. If the Supreme Court were to overturn Roe, then the matter would simply return to the states, where it belongs. Or do you speak of gay rights/marriage? If so, then sorry to disappoint you but the majority still opposes them, while opposition to legally recognized civil unions ranges from the mid 40s to majority status. I'm sure you could provide an example, but I hope you've got something better than these two obvious ones. And your remarks about 'contempt from the 50%...', well I think its more complex than that, but so what? Like WBush, Clinton didn't get a majority of the vote, and like both Bushies, Clinton's approval rating ranged from bad to great. What do you expect in a country that is becoming more divided? As for the Democrats being honest about their agenda: Well that's funny. The truth is that both parties will be quite upfront about their policies that enjoy widespread public support, while they'll use semantic tricks to disguise unpopular ones. And here are some examples of how Democrats are dishonest about their agenda: 1. All the credible candidates say they oppose gay marriage; but every single one of them knows very well that the type of judges they will nominate will try to force it on the public. 2. All the candidates use the euphemisms 'affirmative action' and 'civil rights' when talking about what is truthfully called racial preferences. None of them come out and say they support racial preferences, even though that is exactly what exists. 3. Most of the candidates say they support 'legalizing undocumented (i.e. illegal) immigrants', but are against amnesty. Yet every so called guest worker program they push for is nothing but a trojan horse for amnesty. Though, on this issue the republicans are guilty of the same thing. 4. Most of the candidates say they support the rights of people to own guns, yet again they know very well that the type of judges they would nominate would most likely hold the view that the Second Amendment does not protect an individual right to own firearms. So there are some examples of where the Democrats are not upfront about their agenda. I don't doubt that you can cite some examples of Republican deception. That's fine. I am conservative, but not a Republican. I probably won't even vote next year. 'Honest about their agenda' -- Yeah right.
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Dec 17, 2003 8:18:49 AM CST
Aetius 450 writes, "I probably won't even vote next year."
by frankcobretti
And to think I was actually going to take the time to school you on the real issues surrounding the potential placement of women in front-line units such as the infantry & SOF. People who don't vote are unworthy of engagement. While I'm here, however, I will point out to the rest of the reading (and, presumably, voting) public that the two people in this conversation who have identified themselves as current or former military men are much more open to idea of women in combat than our friend the non-voting ideologue.
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Not voting may simply mean there is no one running who best represents my views. In the past I have voted for Democrats and Republicans. I voted in 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, and 2002, so that should make me worthy of your intended schooling of me. But lets just say that I changed my mind. I'll vote next year. So now feel free to enlighten me about the 'real issues' surrounding this topic. As to my being an idealogue: I've already stated why my opinions are what they are on this issue; namely that the vast majority of current and former military personnel I've heard address this topic say that opening ground combat units is a bad idea. An unnecessary idea. How does agreeing with them make me an idealogue? If they held the opposite view, then I probably would too. If your description of me as an idealogue comes from my last post, then surely you realize that I was simply citing examples to counter a statement made by another poster. Feel free to point out where I went wrong. See, I will listen to what you say. I'll consider it. I may even agree. That's what an exchange of ideas is all about. But in the meantime you could simply point out where I have gone wrong, and tell me what points I been mistaken on specifically, without attempting to diminsish what I've said by referring to me as an 'idealogue.' I say again it should be up to those seeking to make a radical unneeded change in policy to prove why it should be done. The onus is on you.
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Dec 17, 2003 2:51:17 PM CST
OK, Aetius450, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and lay do
by frankcobretti
PP In any discussion of future manpower or materiel configurations of the United States military, we need to keep three considerations in mind: #1, Old, large, successful organizations are resistant to change of any kind. The leaders of those organizations did well under recent or existing paradigms and have every reason to believe that the status quo is the right and proper way to do business. These leaders, naturally, swing a lot of weight, which leads to institutional inertia. It
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Dec 17, 2003 10:06:58 PM CST
Denethor's palantir! Those Kiwi muppets forgot to mention it!
by hollycrumpets
I thought Denethor's death in the book was much better, burning to death on the pyre the seeing stone forever cursed with the face of the dead steward in his hands.
But then he could take a header off a big tower whilst on fire.
But it's as much a taste thing as literary integrity. -
Take you medicine. Be a mensch.
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Your last post was much more enjoyable to read, without the insults and all. I did read it. I considered it. You make some good points. You make other points that I disagree with. I
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Nice ripost. If this talkback drops off the page before I have time to write a decent reply, I'll post to the Peter Jackson interview TB.
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Just hear that echo! Any TEs around?
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Now what are we going to talk about? Surely not... "The Return of the King"? Have you seen it a second time by now, or are the term papers still preventing you from seeing it again?
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Term papers still as present as ever, Elaine. I really do need to see it again. As others have noted, all the book concerns tend to go out the window with multiple viewings, and I want to see it without that distance. I still think it will be too rushed on second viewing, but I don't think I will care as much! Have you seen it again yet?
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I was going to see it a third time on Thursday, but ended up having a root canal treatment instead - a grim and painful way to spend what should have been a perfectly transporting afternoon. I would have loved to see it again this weekend, too, but couldn't make it then, either, as I had to attend a big family get-together. Which wasn't too bad, actually; my "Lord-of-the-Rings"-crazy cousin (who has never read the book but saw the first two films a whopping 36 times in the cinema) was there as well, and we spent quite a few hours discussing the films, to the collective boredom and frustration of all our other relatives. We did score an important victory, though - both my brother and my mother (who are not at all into what they call "films about garden gnomes") have promised to watch my "Fellowship" DVD on Christmas day, and if they like it they'll watch the rest of the trilogy, too. I can't picture either of them turning into real Tolkien fans, but persuading them to give at least one of the films a chance is a step in the right direction, I think. **** With regard to multiple viewings, I've noticed that I tend to enjoy "Lord of the Rings" films most on the third viewing, when I'm familiar enough with the film to accept it on its own merits but do still make the odd new discovery, when sound and vision become one (in that the music is tied for once and for all to the images it accompanies), and when the process of learning lines by heart really begins. That said, I also hugely enjoyed my second viewing, which solved the Aragorn problem for me in much the same way that it seems to have for Miami. I was distinctly underwhelmed by Aragorn (and particularly his speech before the Black Gates) on my first viewing, but when I saw the film again, Aragorn didn't bother me at all. I still prefer the rough, dirty and unshaven Ranger of the earlier films to the clean, softish, kingly type who appears in the later scenes (and in the Rivendell scenes in the earlier films), but I can deal with the latter now. I also quite like his rallying speech now, although it still pales in comparison with Theoden's rally and the charge of the Rohirrim. I have no doubt it will be a fine scene once the Mouth of Sauron scene is inserted. Finally, I got more emotionally involved the second time around. Sure, I got misty-eyed some six or seven times last Tuesday, but I was too swept away by the break-neck speed of the film to actually weep. I did weep on my second viewing. Thrice. Big tears running down both of my cheeks. My litmus test for a great film. **** Amidst all the second-time improvements, there was one scene that I really admired on first viewing but liked considerably less the second time around. I absolutely loved the way Pippin's song and Faramir's suicide mission are intercut when I first saw the film; when I saw it again, I actually found myself agreeing with Greenleaf, who said (I'm paraphrasing here) that the intercutting was messy and would-be cinematic and that it ruined what could have been two very powerful stand-alone scenes. I was still greatly moved by both Pippin's song and Faramir's riding-out, but somehow I didn't think intercutting was the right way to go about those scenes. It'll be interesting to see where I stand on that on my next viewing, which will take place on Tuesday. Who knows - maybe I'll love the scene again, as I did on my first viewing! **** As for the film still feeling rushed on repeat viewings, no doubt about that - it does. That simply cannot be helped, what with all the stuff they had to cram into those 200 minutes and all the stuff they had to leave out. I'm not too worried about the gaps and the rushedness, though, as I know that those problems will be addressed in the EE, to which I look forward with an eagerness bordering on insanity. What do you think - aren't those rumours about the EE lasting as long as five hours sweeeeeeet? I'm thrilled to think about all the extra stuff they'll put in. The Mouth of Sauron, the Houses of Healing, Frodo and Sam marching across Gorgoroth with an army of orcs... More quiet little moments which I cannot imagine now but which will undoubtedly improve both the characterisation and the flow... Yes, it'll be a VERY impressive film once it is restored to its full splendour. Despite the horribly garish palantir and the insanely phoney Army of the Dead. **** Good luck with the term papers! Just out of curiosity, what are they on?
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Dec 21, 2003 8:26:38 PM CST
Elanor and I just noticed there's an unhosed talkback, Djinnj.
by elaine
It's the one on 16681. Unhosed and not too long. Perfect for our purposes, methinks.
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So maybe we should use this one, after all, seeing it's off the front page and all.
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Dec 21, 2003 8:43:21 PM CST
Hi mellyn. I vote for this one, because it's unhosed and short-i
by elanor
I'm going to e-mail a bunch of te's to suggest we gather here.
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I'm with ya, Ingold, on the clapping & cheering during the movie. * Note to the two love birds sitting next to me and sucking face at the midnight showing - get a friggin' room! * That being said, I suppose I caused a minor distraction myself. There we were outside of Mt. Doom. The lava was rising higher & higher. I could swear that I was choking on the ashes and fumes. And lo! here come the eagles! I actually raised my hand to point at them. JD the Taller just shook his head and gently pulled my hand down. The row behind me chuckled softly, in an amused sort of way, but I still felt sort of ridiculous. *** My overall reaction - Well, like Eternal said somewhere, on one of these TBs, I left the theatre feeling drained and rather melancholy. But, I can't wait to go back and see it again. The beacons were glorious and filled me with wonder. Shelob was a fright and yes indeedy Moaters, she was more than large enough. Bernard Hill was awesome and sent shivers down my spine when mustering the Riders. *** One nit pick that I feel compelled to share (sorry Pallando), as I have not seen it stated here, is Gandalf's treatment of Pippen before Denethor. There he was, on his own, separated from Merry, and facing Boromir's grief stricken father. He takes responsibility and offers his services to Denethor. This was a coming of age moment, a pinnacle in Pippen's life. The honesty and openness on his face (Boyd did a hellava job, btw) moved me to tears. And what does Gandalf do? He knocks him aside with his staff. The audience laughed but I was mortified. *** Hello to all the TEs. Morgoth, there's an email coming your way. I promise.
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How I wish my U had given a class on something Tolkien this semester. I'd have whipped that paper out in no time! As it is, I'm writing one paper about Leslie Marmon Silko's _Ceremony_ as enacting the performance of a ritual (in the writing and reading of it); one paper about the evolution of Christmas (in America) as a secular holiday for non-religious non-Christian immigrants (such as my own family) due in part to the unspoken Protestant hegemony of the US; and one paper on something to do with Sherman Alexie's _The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven_ and his adaptation of part of that text into _Smoke Signals_ (the film directed by Chris Eyre). Still at the research stage, sadly. I've got to just start writing or I'll never get done! ---- I'm hopeful for my second viewing. It took me 3 for TTT, but I've fewer reservations about RotK. Although, I'm saddened that we've lost redeemable Gollum, I can deal with it (and hope for more character dev. in the SEV). Really, since PJ has stuck with the "just because it isn't here doesn't mean it didn't happen" with a lot of side details, I can put them into my interpretation. I really really wish he'd left in the parley with the MoS though. I think it would have changed everything about the last stand in front of the Morannon. Luckily, my far from vivid imagination has managed to insert it into my understanding of that scene. I've also heard some disappointment over the cliff hanging, but I liked it. Tolkien's ending of the Ring was very fast, happening between two heartbeats suddenly and unexpectedly. To extend it to a few breaths and permit a bit of reflection during the action required more interaction between F and G, and as such the scene made sense. From there of course all I can say is that EW is a tremendous actor, and he really sells every moment. I just want MORE! We should feel every last inch he has to stumble across Gorgoroth! *sigh* We wonders when we'll get the release date for the SEV, yes, we wonders.
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It occurred to me when I saw it that Gandalf was showing rather more disdain for Pippin than he actually felt because Denethor doesn't like G. This allows D to trust P's actions as truthful and not a ploy by Gandalf. While I don't think Gandalf was entirely pleased by Pippin's actions, I don't think they quite dismayed him as much as he implied. And their conversation afterwards is much more indicative of their relationship, at least to me. P'raps it's book stuff intruding on film stuff, but that's how I viewed it (almost said 'took it,' talk about a pun!).
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One of my favorites so far - it's at TORN. There is also a piece of crap by Caryn James in the NY Times that asks if women are "bored" of the Rings. Imagine! We here are all deluded I suppose! I fired off a letter telling her just how wrong she is.***Elaine, I agree about the delights of the third viewing. It is exquisite when you can really let the glories of the book rest back at home in its treasured cover and enjoy the film as the film. I am going for four on Tuesday with one of my favorite Tolkien buds and feel
giddy with excitement to see it again!***I was at Tower Video yesterday afternoon, Christmas shopping, when I overheard a young woman asking the clerk about Fellowship. I listened (natch) as he explained they were all out of it and tried to offer her the extended T2T. I heard her say she was seeing ROTK on Thursday. She said "do you really need to see the other two first?" The clerk seemed totally clueless so I walked over. I asked her if she got the cable station "STARZ" since they are showing both. She said no. Then she asked me "do you really have to see the other movies first?" I said, "oh yeah, ya really do." She seemed happy to have her instinct confirmed. The store really was both sold-out and rented-out of Fellowship, so I suggested that she try Blockbuster, even though I hate that store. I stopped in the one closest to me on my way home and they had plenty left so I'm pretty sure there will be another Tolkien fan by Thursday!***One of the annoying tb
phenomenon's about LOTR becomming so popular is that people are now going to this movie for no other reason than because of the hype. People who loathe fantasy. People with 90 minute attention spans, with insane expectations, people who would never be attracted to it because of a trailer or an article, they are just flocking to it because it is "the thing to do". So I guess we should all prepare ourselves for extra squirming noises from these bleating sheep who won't be able to deal with the way it ends. I am noticing many comments that the "end" should come after the coronation. That is where it makes sense to them because that is the extent of their ability to be involved. Good guys won. Yay, let's go home. But I also believe that for every numbskull who fidgits and wishes he hadn't come there will be another Tolkien virgin who is blown away and will want to know more about
"why Frodo has to leave".***The comments that "they should have cut the pub scene" simply amaze me; are they really missing what's going on in that scene? Are they bored, do they not care or do they just have to pee? More's the pity.***Djinnj, one of your recent posts (an eloquent reposte to some idiot) was wonderful and made me laugh out loud but now I can't remember what or where it was!***If you have e-mails of other tb'ers I hope you'll tip them off that we are here! -
A while back, someone commented that if PJ should have cut the weeping Rohan women from T2T and instead put in the great Faramir/Denethor/Boromir scene of the T2T SEE. I don't remember if it was a regular tailender or not but I decided I would do some research (any excuse, you know!) So...Tum tee tee TUM! Here are the results of the
WASTED TIME WITH WEEPING WOMEN AT HELM'S DEEP Report (WTWWWAHDR). Beginning with the first scenes of "wrench the fighting-age children away from the women", there are 6 separate
shots that run consecutively for a total of 26 seconds. Then, after the Rain Begins there are two shots that last a total of 10 seconds. Then, after Aragorn's Elvish Orders there are two more shots for 6 seconds.
After the Uruks Begin To Chant we get three shots at 8 seconds and then the Battle Begins. So that's 7 shots wasting 24 seconds. If you want to count the "child wrenching scenes" then it's 13 shots and 50 wasted seconds. THEN, once the fighting begins it plays un-interupted by weeping women until The Explosion. At which point we get 2 shots for 2 seconds. The battle continues, uninterrupted by WW until the final retreat and Theoden says "the fortress is taken, it is over". Then we get five shots that last 10 seconds and that's it. SO, to recap: From build up to end of battle, counting the child-wrenching, there are 20 shots that waste 1 minute and 2 seconds of film. I would argue that not all these shots are wastes of time, as it does have a "despair inducing" effect, if only because we know Eowyn is also there. Let's say we could turn back time just this once and convince PJ to cut exactly half of all the shots. We would have, then, 31 seconds of "free" film time. What would you add in?***P.S. In one of my retorts to someone (probably Ryalto) I wrote something like "there
aren't endless shots of weeping women, there are exactly 15." I had NOT done my research at that point and was just guessing but look how close I was!***Next up, warg attack! -
Thanks for the compliment. It means a lot coming from the Queen of PATOW. I try to stay neutral and not feed the trolls, but there've been a lot of idiots lately. ---- I saw that Times review too, and seethed quietly. Funny, I saw mostly women whenever I looked around between films. P'raps we just have bigger bladders or deal better with hunger. No waits at the restrooms though. Only to be expected considering it was an 18 screen multiplex on a slow week night. 1 sold out screening room can't be that difficult to handle! ---- Happy endings are overrated. I read in an interview w/Sean Astin (link by TORn, bless them!) that he likened the fade-to-black multiple endings to the tide. I found the use of the fades a little deliberate, and forcedly reminiscent of the prologue from FotR, but looking at it this way, it makes me think p'raps this deliberation is a good thing and perhaps even a brilliant stylistic choice. It's "backing us out" of the story just as the prologue "eased us in." I think it will improve when the body of the film is longer, as the contrast between the close to 'real time' of the main action will be more strongly contrasted to the extremely compressed time of the wrap up. ---- Wow. Far less than 2 minutes of cowering wimmenenchillun, eh? Y'know, I didn't mind the amount of cave cowering in the extended cut. It was balanced out by all the quiet moments and bits of development elsewhere. Oh, just imagine how good the SEV (SEE?) of RotK will be. I'm slavering already. (that's a symptom of SEEES, right?) ---- Oh, some folks elsewhere have been saying that the welt on Frodo's chest (not the healed over Morgul blade wound, but the other mark) isn't from Shelob ('cause she wouldn't be able to pierce the mithril shirt either, and must have gotten him elsewhere) but is a scar from the Cave Troll bruise. Any ideas? Having only seen it once, I'm not entirely clear on where he was stung or the appearance of the mark. Gah! Must... finish... paper.... Must... see... film... again!
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I just emerged from my third time, and can report that it is the best. Though I still - and I realize this is personal preference - would eliminate the Smeagol/Deagol sequence, which plays to me like bad Looney Tunes (and I think someone else said this first, in case they think I am ripping them off). I just don't think it tells us anything we don't know, or rather, what it adds is something we don't need given the length of the film and what has been cut out. But that remains the only major negative (leaving a discussion of the scene on the Stairs for another time). I think I cried even more at the beacons this time. My sister, who was seeing it for the first time and is completely with me on Frodo, emerged saying that she didn't think Elijah had given a false note in any of the three movies, and was the best yet in this - and if people don't get what he's doing, it's because he's just so natural in the part that they think it's just him being himself. Which is ridiculous, given what he goes through on the journey. Do wish we could have had a bit of Ring-Vision in the final struggle, but as for the going-over-the-edge, it's so well played (more multiple layers on the part of Elijah!) that it's well worth it. And I love the Eagles. And the streams of lava flowing by their little rock. ***And that woman in the Times is an idiot. Every close female friend I have is in love with Tolkien and appreciates these films, and most have gone for multiple viewings. I haven't noticed any preponderance of males at any showing. (Though did notice some girls near me squealing and drumming their feet over Shelob.) ***To previous Pippin love on another talkback, I'd like to add Eomer love, for his fierceness in battle, and for taking down TWO mumakil with one spear. ***And aren't everyone's cloaks just gorgeous in the coronation scene? Note the embroidery on Faramir's and Eomer's, if you haven't - and I wish the hobbits could have worn their entering-the-Shire finery at the coronation, so we could get a better look at it.
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Ingold, JD: clapping, cheering, popcorn chomping and constant chattering
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Snif, blubber,
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JD: I suffered from a drained and melancholy feeling after my first viewing, too, although interestingly the melancholy didn't come upon me until about fourteen hours after I'd seen the film, by which time the adrenaline that had kept me awake during the marathon had thoroughly vaporised. I spent the rest of the day sitting at my desk, listening to the "Grey Havens" and "Into the West" numbers on the soundtrack over and over again and generally feeling very depressed. There was no such drained feeling after my second viewing. Quite the contrary; I felt elated at just having seen such a well-made film. Others have said the same thing. Just thought I'd share that with you... **** The audience with which I had my second viewing found Gandalf knocking Denethor and Pippin aside absolutely hilarious. Then again, that audience was a tad weird; they didn't even seem to appreciate the beacons scene, which is hands-down my favourite scene of the film. The guy sitting next to my friend actually used that scene to send some text messages to his friends. Wouldn't you just like to strangle some people? **** ELANOR: My word, you get around to doing some interesting research. Thirty-one seconds, you say? Hmmm, let me see. How long does the Brego scene (the one in which Aragorn comforts/tames Brego, to the amazement of the goggle-eyed Eowyn) last? Would that fit? In that case, I'd like that scene to replace some of the cowering-women shots. Although I have to say I don't mind the women nearly as much as some other Tailenders seem to do. I just get a bit fed up with the close-ups of Jackson's kids, that's all. **** You're right, for every dimwit who thinks "The Return of the King" should end after the coronation there is someone who is completely bowled over by the real endings. My film-mad cousin (who hasn't read the book and probably won't ever do so because she truly hates reading and can't bear the thought of reading a thousand-page book) asked me heaps of questions about Frodo's trouble getting settled in again, the ship to the West, etc. after our Tuesday screening, and when I started explaining the whole Grey Havens thing to her (referring also to Gandalf's little speech about death and the theme song, which was playing at that point), several sixteen-year-old girls joined us to listen to my explanation. They didn't understand the Grey Havens scene until they had it explained to them, but they absolutely loved it and wouldn't have missed it for the world. Which made me very happy indeed. **** DJINNJ: Man, those papers sound hard. And you're still in the research phase, you say? What a singularly unrelaxed way to head into Christmas. I feel for you, girl. **** I'm one of the people who object to the cliff-hanging, although I hasten to add that that's more on principle than because there's something wrong with the scene itself. True, the Crack of Doom scene needed a bit more drama than it is given in the book (a little Ring-vision would have been nice, as Daughter of Time said, and consistent with Frodo's earlier puttings-on of the Ring - maybe that will be added in the EE?), but the going-over-the-edge thing struck me as overly Hollywoodian, particularly on my first viewing. I can just see the executives saying, "Let's get some more excitement in there, guys!" That said, the scene IS impeccably handled. Both Elijah Wood and Sean Astin are terrific in it, and Sam's "don't you let go" ranks among the most intense moments of the film. Not would-be, Hollywood-style pseudo-intense, but really beautifully, movingly, hauntingly intense. **** I dislike the fades to black towards the end. They're too long. They remind me unpleasantly of a French-Japanese film called "H Story", which is a documentary-like remake of "Hiroshima mon amour" that ends with a series of loooooong fades to black, each followed by a more unbearably pretentious pseudo-ending. "H Story" ranks amongst the worst films I have seen, so it's not a pleasant association. And sadly, I'm not sure the fades will grow on me when the body of the film is longer, although needless to say I hope they will. **** DAUGHTER OF TIME: I could have done without the Smeagol/Deagol flashback, too. I liked it the first time I saw it because of the novelty factor (Smeagol's transformation into Gollum is quite interesting to behold, isn't it?), but I couldn't wait for it to end the second time around. In my opinion, it's an over-the-top scene that gets the film off to the wrong start and doesn't add anything substantial to the film. I hope they'll get rid of it on the DVD, although I'm not getting my hopes up too high. **** SABSTER: Frohe Weihnachten to you, too, and I hope you find a decent cinema in Bonn or K
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Oh yes, nice Hobbits, so very polite. SNEAKING off to this old TB and leaving the poor old connexions bloak with his arse flapping in the Morgul breeze with the haters and trollers! *** Erm, actually, I saw Elain's post advocating a move to this TB for a TE, just haven't had a chance to drop in 'til now. How-do all? *** Saw it again. DoT is absolutely correct there is no: I am a WOMAN. All she say's is "I am no man!", and stabs that sucker right in his 'invisible' mouk!
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I really must start following Tailend gatherings more consistently, you guys hop around like mad! Just to repost what I said on the last TB before I try and catch up with this one: D-o-T, long time no see! Yes I too found the beacon scene to be one of my favourite ever filmic moments (you too Elaine? Everyone I went with looked at me strangely for saying so!), such a perfect marriage of a wonderful visual depiction and a fantastically stirring musical cue.
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Dec 22, 2003 1:27:40 PM CST
Yes, Bean, the beacons scene is one of the most visually arresti
by elaine
... up there with the burning-paper scene in "In the Name of the Father" and almost everything Zhang Yimou has ever committed to celluloid. My jaw dropped to the floor when I first saw it, and I find it hard to believe that there are people who fail to be impressed by it, although I know there are heaps of them. Don't they have eyes and ears? Are they not susceptible to the phenomenal beauty of those flames and those mountains? The light-in-the-dark symbolism? I thought Zhang Yimou had the patent on scenic, symbolic stuff like that, but it seems I've been proven wrong. Jackson and his team have come up with some of the most beautiful images in the history of film. I'm curious to learn who actually came up with the idea (the beacons only get a passing mention in the book, don't they?), and which extremely gifted artist (artists?) executed it. One more reason to look forward to the EE! I don't just want to see the long version of the film, but I'm dying to check out the documentaries, too! When IS that DVD coming out?
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What is it with this site? Surely there must be a way to keep the posts chronological?
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After the contemptuous but certainly powerful Denethor of the TTT EE, I was disappointed to see his character given so little respect, from the "red drooling" (ugh!) to the being whacked by Gandalf as if in a continuation of the bar-brawl at Edoras, to his flaming exit - not so much the fall itself, as Gandalf's ill-timed eulogy. The "comet" aspect could be a grand, tragic counterpoint to the raging battle below, if only Gandalf had spoken the lines later in some kind of regret at Denethor's former nobility. (By the way, does anyone have an explanation for Pippin tagging along as Gandalf rides out against the three Nazgul - other than this scene being switched from an earlier position in the narrative? If Gandalf doesn't want him fighting, he'd hardly want him in a desperate rear-guard action.) This said, Gandalf and Pippin share two of the film's best scenes: the "breath before the plunge" scene on the balcony, and Gandalf's description of the "path" that all must take, which consistently brings tears to my eyes. ***I'm still hoping for the Mouth of Sauron to make an appearance in the EE, but note that one thing he won't be displaying is Sam's sword - Sam charges up the stairs into the Tower with two swords - unless Sam mislays his own while they are getting their orc gear together. Speaking of which, how does Sam take the Ring when he has only pulled the webbing back from Frodo's face (a sad lapse of white-shirted potential, in my opinion)? In the last long short we get of Frodo at that point, he is still fully wrapped, dashing my hopes that the EE will contain a much longer scene of Sam working himself up to leave his master - unless, of course, they recut the whole scene with alternate footage, which would be my choice. This would have been a great scene to cut away from and get back to, indicating the passage of time. (I think the trouble with those black-outs at the end is that they DO lead the un-book-read audience to believe it's over each time, not only because of their length, but because that device hasn't been used in other cases of scene and time change.) ***Any speculation on how - if the Houses of Healing are going to be restored - Merry and Eowyn recover quickly enough to rejoin the last battle, yet Faramir is literally left on the floor... but healthy at the coronation. Of course, his wounds could logically take longer to heal, but isn't it odd that Eowyn gets another go at being a warrior, while Faramir's role ends in passivity - and yet he is with her at the end?
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I couldn't agree more. Here's the link, courtesy of TORN: http://nationalreview.com/comment/dalfonzo200312220001.asp
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Yes, it seems odd at first that Merry and Eowyn should recover in time to fight another battle while Faramir doesn't, but if you analyse the way Merry and Eowyn are depicted after their battle against the Witch-King, it suddenly makes a lot more sense. Faramir, as you said, looks pretty much dead when they drag him into the city; it would take a miracle for him to recover quickly. Merry and Eowyn, on the other hand, hardly seem to be injured at all in their fight against the Witch-King, which is one of the things I don't really like about that scene. To me, it seems that Merry and Eowyn win their fight quite comfortably; they vanquish the Nazgul almost with ease, and don't appear to suffer the consequences of their temerity as much as they do in the book. Yes, Eowyn gets to clutch at her shield-arm at one point, and yes, Merry looks fairly exhausted by the time Pippin finds him, but do you get the impression they are seriously, possibly mortally wounded? I don't. Nor, I think, are we supposed to think that they are, what with Eowyn being able to bend over Theoden and hear his dying words. She doesn't seem very overcome by the black breath, does she? Quite the contrary; she seems quite lively to me. Which makes it likely (as someone was saying in the AICN-Australia talkback just a few days ago) that the dead or dying blonde the bawling Eomer holds in the trailer is Gamling rather than Eowyn, for I can't see anyone mistaking Eowyn for dead, the way she sits next to the dying Theoden when we last see her on the battlefield. Presumably there WILL be a scene in the EE in which Aragorn heals Eowyn (there is a photo of him sitting by her bed), but I can't imagine she needs much healing. Unlike Faramir, who really does seem to be half-dead. **** As for Gandalf's treatment of Denethor, I fully agree it is inappropriate on several counts, as is the way Jackson depicts Denethor himself. I truly loathe those close-ups of Denethor slobbering his food; of all the grotesque, disrespectful "improvements" Jackson has made to the story, those close-ups are probably my least favourite. I really can't find any justification for them. But who knows, maybe I'll get used to them after ten viewings or so, just like I got used to Gimli's bad jokes in "The Two Towers" in the end. I still don't like them, but at least I can bear them.
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Finally a critic who realises that Frodo is the hero of the story, not Sam. There've been all too few of those lately. Yay! Thanks for the link.
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Elaine, I did think on my third viewing, certainly, that Eowyn's shield arm is meant to be broken, and she does crawl toward Theoden favoring her arm. And Merry also screams in pain and holds his arm as if it has been affected by his blow. I haven't had the chance to check if Eowyn's arm is in any kind of sling at the Black Gate. ***To add weight to thoughts in some earlier talkbacks, and quoting the National Review essay: "Jackson never errs in the direction of making any character nobler." The writer adds that it may be that Jackson "finds evil more fascinating than good" and that "our culture is sadly unused to fully realized portrayals of good characters." Well, it's all in the essay, and I won't keep quoting, but it's certainly been my feeling that it is Jackson's own preference for over-emphasizing character flaws and perhaps discomfort with the idea of fully committed nobility that has led him and his team to make the story revisions they did, particularly in regard to Frodo and Faramir, and to a lesser degree with Denethor, who is quite frightening enough as a proud nobleman gone mad that he needn't have had all dignity stripped from his character. I'm willing to accept that time constraints and working with an earlier script forced changes in Faramir, but not that the character couldn't have been presented in all his original decency and still been interesting, if they'd not shared this modern bias. (Unfortunately, in the current ROTK, we never DO get a sense of Faramir being beloved by his people, or rallying his men with his own courage, or any real sense that he was, in fact, a better leader of men than Boromir, if not so great an individual warrior. Instead, between FOTR and the TTT EE, we have been shown that apparently both the military prowess and the human compassion were both stronger in Boromir.) ***By the way, since my own intimate circle mostly includes people who have gone from the books to the films, has anyone here had any significant contact with thoughtful people who came late to the books, and what do they think of seeing the choices made "in reverse"? Do they think the good Faramir is a dead bore, or are they delighted in his instant sympathy with Frodo? (Are they equally affected by that scene so dear to us "swooners," where Frodo unburdens himself and faints in Faramir's cave?) Do they love the full extended scene on the Stairs, or the much longer aftermath, as Sam wills himself to leave his dead master? And are any thrilled by the Scouring, and the hobbits coming into their full strength?
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Daughter of Time, I have no doubt you're right about Eowyn's and Merry's arms being broken; tomorrow's viewing will probably reveal their pain in its full, undiminished, terrible glory. I don't recall any slings at the battle of the Morannon either, which would seem to indicate that Eowyn does indeed get her arm healed before the battle. This is not consistent with the book, but then neither is Eowyn fighting at the Black Gate, is it? I assume this is what you were driving at. My own point, meanwhile, was mostly that in the book, Eowyn is first believed to be dead, then to be dying (which you'd have to agree is more serious than just having one's arm broken), and that in the film, she appears to be rather better off after the battle, even if she does have to crawl towards Theoden. Far better than Faramir, at any rate. Which makes her presence at the Black Gate more logical than Faramir's, even if is at odds with the book. **** I didn't really get into the National Review article because to me, it seemed merely to confirm what we had already agreed on in a previous talkback: that Jackson isn't interested in noble characters. It was no major revelation me to that Jackson is more interested in evil and grotesqueness than in dignity and nobility; to me, that's been perfectly obvious since "The Two Towers". "The Return of the King" provides even more proof - not only in the instances of Denethor and Faramir, but also in the glee with which Jackson keeps giving us close-ups of that hideously deformed orc leader (Gothmog?). It's obvious: he loves flawed and ugly characters, and it is here that his horror background really shines through. If he had been a True Believer in Beauty and Nobility (as one would expect a Tolkien lover to be), he wouldn't have started out as a director of horror flicks. Horror, beauty and nobility are pretty much incompatible. **** As for us not getting a sense that Faramir is beloved by his people... have you forgotten the flowers the people of Minas Tirith throw before his horse's hooves just before he leads his men to their doom? If that isn't a sign that he IS a beloved leader whose loss will be mourned, I don't know what is. But you're right, it would be nice to see more of the people's love for Faramir, and to see why it is so deserved. This is why I find it such a pity that Beregond is not in the film; he embodies the love and loyalty that Faramir inspires in those close to him. I was hoping (against better knowledge) that Beregond might make an appearance in the EE, but I just checked the cast list on the IMDB and there is no mention of a Beregond, which probably means he won't be in the EE, either. However, I expect there will be more Gandalf-Faramir stuff in the EE - some conversation in the first hour of the film, after Faramir has told Gandalf and Pippin he has met Frodo, in which it becomes clear that Gandalf, at least, really admires and loves Faramir. In any case, I hope so. Faramir definitely deserves to be seen in a more heroic light than he has been so far.
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Elaine, I guess I never saw any indication that the flowers strewn at the feet of the departing cavalry were just for Faramir, or a sign of special love for him, but on the contrary, they seemed to be from the populace to ALL the men heading out to a hopeless battle, and were strewn in front of more horse's hooves than his. As for the National Review article not being a "major revelation," I never said it was; I merely thought it was an exceptionally well-written summation of the case, with some excellent quotes.
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D'oh! I missed that. I only noticed Merry's unexpected presence! I also noticed his sword went 'pfffft!' after he stabbed the Witch King, heh. Must look closer next time I watch....
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You are a ruffian and a fool. Down on your knees in the road and ask pardon or I will set this troll's bane in you.
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And I saw it thrice!***Elaine, I think the Brego scene is too long but I'll check.***I was at a Christmas office party this afternoon/evening and nearly everyone was talking ROTK. One woman (who has never read the books) said it was the best movie she had ever seen. She said she was filled with a desire to go out and do something
selfless. She said she wept quietly for nearly two hours and at one point let out a huge loud sob that she just couldn't keep in. I asked her when, and she said "when Frodo tells Sam to go home!" I asked her how she liked the end and she nearly started crying again! She said she loved knowing what else happened, that she gets mad when films wrap up so quick and off you go. Throughout the evening, when someone who had not yet seen it would hear someone else talking about it they would say "don't tell me! I'm going on Christmas with my family", or "I have tickets for Saturday!" or something. I swear I wasn't starting these conversations, although I admit a number of these people know how I feel about the films and probably knew I'd love hearing about it.
***I should know better than to egg on the trolls. Sorry. I'll stop. -
djinnj & elanor, don't feel bad. Eowyn's appearance at the Morannon is news to me, too. I must have missed her when I was giving the 'love birds' next to me The Look. You know, the one that could curdle new milk, as taught to me by Lobelia herself! *** DOT - JD the Taller recently just finished the books. To my dismay, he has shown himself to be quite the Purist. I quote "What the hell did they do to Faramir (insert Galadriel)? That's just... not right!" The FotR and TTT SEVS mollified him to some extent and so has the passage of time and repeat viewings. On the way to the theatre last week I dropped the bomb that the Scouring was out. His response was, "But that was the point of the whole freaking story"! He grumbled & moaned right up until the lights went down. In hindsight, I suppose I should have warned him sooner to let him become more accustomed to the various changes. His sister has not read the books, but adores the movies (and is totally infatuated with Aragorn). Unfortunately, she had surgery on Dec. 8 and is still unable to sit for 31/2 hours in a theatre. After she sees RotK, I'll make a note to ask her about those niggling changes that cause so much sound and fury with some of us and, hopefully, remember to post her replies!
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Surely he will be pleased to see the return of demure Arwen, banner in hand, not a sword in sight. And I hope he will like the return to the Shire scene. And although he is a fan of the much mourned and missing SOTS, I hope he likes the Prancing Pony scene.
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but I do feel sorry for him. Johnny Suede has been a wicked fool, but he's caught now....
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Dec 23, 2003 3:46:00 AM CST
Actually, we agree more than we seem to disagree, Daughter of Ti
by elaine
Yes, the flowers are strewn in front of more horses' hooves than just Faramir's, and yes, they are for all the men who ride out to save Osgiliath. But the fact that they are strewn at all is some indication of the people's love for Faramir, I think. Think about it. The people COULD have turned their backs on Faramir's men and denounced their suicide mission for what it is: folly. They COULD have told Faramir's men that Faramir himself is as deranged as his father (can you see in your mind's eye how Jackson would have gone about that scene? More character assassination. Yeah!) and tried to persuade them not to follow their captain. Instead, the men DO follow their captain (there's love and loyalty for you!), and the people, despite seeing the utter hopelessness of their stand, seem to accept it. Hell, not only do they seem to accept it, but they actually give the men a hero's farewell, replete with all the flowers that come with a king's or a superstar's funeral. So even if the flowers aren't for Faramir alone, they bespeak a respect for him, I think. But you're right, that isn't enough to show us that Faramir is a revered leader of men. We need to see more of Faramir's leadership qualities. We need characters who are willing to kill to save his life (Beregond!), and we need scenes that show us how he inspires that kind of love and loyalty in his men. We need to see Faramir earn the same kind of respect (if not actually more of it!) that Jackson has awarded to Boromir. You seem to agree with me there, so whatever else we may disagree on, we certainly agree on Jackson's treatment of Faramir. :-) **** As for the National Review article, I DID say it was a good article in my first post, didn't I? The short one? It may not have been a revelation, perhaps, but it certainly is a well-argued and well-written essay that I enjoyed reading. It puts forward some ideas I had had myself but couldn't have formulated quite as eloquently. Apparently you had had those same ideas, so there's something else we seem to agree on. Now let's see if my next viewing of "The Return of the King" brings us closer on other subjects, as well... :-)
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... "Actually we seem to agree more than we disagree." D'oh!
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Where someone says that PJ stated in an interview that the SEV will be over 4:50 in length. No newspaper name given, no dates, nadda. But we can hope. ---- Oy! Johnny, I'm not about to sit still while you are rude to elanor! And anyway, I couldn't resist giving Frodo's line in response to her most excellent use of Pippin. Careful though. I meant it. If you stick around long enough, you'll get sucked in and actually start responding thoughtfully.
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After two viewings, I too, have not seen Eowyn before the Black Gate, and question whether she's there amoung all the other helmeted blondes (of the male persuasion) Can anyone be specific and give a clue as to which side of the screen I should look at when they are lined up before the Black Gate? Thanks. ***DoT, in the AICN Downunder tb (the one with the EE info) I also questioned why Pippin was riding with Gandalf when he rode out to save the retreating Osgiliath forces from the fell beast riding Nazgul. I had previously mentioned that in the EE I had hoped to see some sort of a "bonding" scene between Pippin and Shadowfax at the Minas Tirith stables (as in the book) to better explain why Shadowfax comes to Pippin's aid at the pyre by kicking Denethor. After morGoth jumped all over me saying that a "bonding" scene was not necessary, I speculated that maybe Pippin was in the stables with Shadowfax when the need for Gandalf's ride occurs. Or that he possibly brought Shadowfax to Gandalf when the need arose. All I know is that *something* was left out here, so I hope we will eventually get to see it. ***As for when the EE comes out, I believe that it will be in August, 12 weeks after the release of the theatrical DVD which will be released towards the end of May (12 weeks was also the interval between TTT and TTT-EE). Something to look forward to.
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I always thought that scene looked like Gandalf and Pippin met up with the retreat as they rode up to Minas Tirith initially, and Faramir didn't enter with them because he needed to see to his remaining troops. It didn't make sense that Pippin wasn't in his uniform yet when he'd received it the night before(and there would've been a great opportunity for Faramir's line about 'a halfling here, and in the garb of the Tower') Dunno, really dunno....
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I meant that I thought the scene was shot and edited with the intent of placing it earlier, and then they moved it for pacing reasons. It may even move back in the SEV, if we get to see Gandalf's conversation with Faramir.
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I though I saw Eowen and Merry at the Gates too.
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you forgot staying pregnant and raising children in your first post. I thought that was the whole POINT of females - survival of the race and all? Interesting viewpoints there, buddy. What you really need to do is go back to WWII and kill Hitler so that women don
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Mornin', lassie! (as Gimli would say). I never assumed that Pippin received his unform the night before while in Denethor's presence. I just figured that it was delivered [after some minor alterations, of course -- "Sam, you made the pants too long." :~)] to Pippin the morning after. ***I was glad to see that I was correct about SOMETHING, i.e. the moving shot of Sam holding Frodo on the slopes of Mount Doom. "How come Frodo has all of his fingers?" several here questioned. "They will remove it in post production," answered some. "Because they were ASCENDING the mountain," said I.
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I might be remembering it inaccurately, but I thought the scene where Pippin offers up service to Denethor precedes a night scene where Pippin's looking as his livery and sword. And then there's that lovely conversation on the balcony. Then, the next day, there's the bit where Gandalf chases off the Nazgul harrassing the retreat of the Osgiliath garrison. I seem to recall wondering why he wasn't properly dressed when he'd already taken service. Of course, then we get a scene later where we seem him pledge his sword. So that then explained why he wasn't wearing his Tower Guard gear in the earlier scene. Confused the hell outta me!
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You're up early, aren't you? **** Djinnj: Ian McKellen was quoted as saying the EE would come in at five hours right here on this site just a few days ago, if I remember correctly. Don't you just love the sound of that? **** Miami: I'm going to see "The Return of the King" again in a few hours, and will try to establish Eowyn's exact position in front of the Black Gate. I'll report back later. **** Rune: "We sure won't miss your internet connection"? Wheee! Made me laugh, that one.
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I saw Merry at the Black Gate as well. I'm just not sure on whose horse he was riding (Pippin was with Gandalf on Shadowfax), but I'm pretty sure that he was not with Eowyn. Eomer, perhaps? Hope someone can tell me definitvely, otherwise I'll just have to wait until my Elf viewing (#3) this Thursday and see for myself. ***By the way, Eowyn's arm was most definitely broken by the Witch King's mace (and wasn't that an awesome thing! -- I'd be hightailing it out of there if someone was swinging that thing at me!). Since I happened to be on ER duty that day, let me tell you what happened: X-rays revealed that it was not only broken, but shattered! The multiple compound fracture was reduced surgically with the insertion of pins and screws in both the upper and lower arm. Afterwards, every surviving member of the Fellowship signed her cast. Recovery was quickened by extensive physical and occupational therapy. Hope this clears things up.
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I thought that Pippin was either pledging with the sword that Strider gave him at Weathertop or "the nice shiney dagger" that Galadriel gave him in FotR-EE. ***Thanks for the lookout, Elaine.
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Actually, I think they seek out old talkbacks so they can get away from trolls like you. You've wasted at least five minutes looking for the TB on which they chose to congregate just so that you could tell them they suck and that hobbits are gay? No, you're still the fool. ************* btw, I won't troll fellas, I'm just interested in reading your opinions.
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The whole "no man can kill me"... that's just rhetoric, right? I mean, men can actually kill him, but none have? Otherwise, that whole Macbeth/Macduff thing is kind of stupid. Where the hell do you sign up for those powers?
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It seems both Daughter of Time and I were hallucinating this time. I could have sworn I caught a glimpse of Eowyn among the Rohirrim when Aragorn gives his "but-it-is-not-this-day!" speech the last time I saw the film, but when I just watched the scene again, that glimpse was nowhere to be found. Miami must be right; I must have mistaken one of the other Rohan blondes (possibly a bearded one!) for Eowyn, or perhaps even Legolas. In any case, she doesn't seem to be there, and I apologise for confusing you all. I can't say I'm unhappy to be proven wrong, though; quite the contrary, I was GLAD I didn't catch that glimpse of her this time. Eowyn has no business being on that battlefield. She should be in the Houses of Healing falling in love with Faaaaaaramir! **** Just to be on the safe side: Merry is most definitely outside the Morannon, fighting valiantly. That is not consistent with the book, either, but I can't say I mind. It seems sort of fitting that he should be there, and moreover it proves that I wasn't hallucinating when I said Merry didn't seem too wounded on the Pelennor Fields. (Phew. I was beginning to doubt myself there.) **** I officially hate Faramir's riding-out scene now. Greenleaf was right: the intercutting completely ruins what could have been one of the most powerful scenes in the film, fraught with unbelievable tension and suspense. Here you have Faramir, bravely charging towards Osgiliath, and what do you get? Ugly close-ups of ugly orcs, ugly close-ups of a slobbering Denethor, Pippin singing a song that would have been more powerful if Jackson hadn't cut away from it, and why, I do believe there's even a shot of Frodo and Sam in there! Or someone who doesn't have anything to do with Faramir! It's all tremendously ambitious, this intercutting (especially with all those ever-so-sophisticated close-ups), but I'm afraid it doesn't work for me at all. I'd have been far happier just watching Faramir storming forwards and seeing/hearing Pippin sing his song. Talk about ruining a great scene. Ugh. **** Speaking of close-ups: does anyone agree with me that there are far too many of them in the film? I'm not just talking about weird close-ups of grotesque characters doing grotesque things, but also regular close-ups, of such sweet things as Frodo's eyes, Sam's eyes, etc. Obviously I don't mind the odd close-up of Frodo's eyes (quite the contrary!), but occasionally it seems to me that the film is nothing BUT close-ups, which is not a good thing. Especially if the close-ups are meant to be scary and they're not. The Witch-King, anyone? **** DJINNJ: You were asking where Shelob stings Frodo, weren't you? Well, it isn't entirely obvious, but I think she stings him at the back of his neck, between his shoulders, just above the mithril suit. You never get a close-up of that part of Frodo's body, which is why you don't get to see the wound, but I'm certain it's there. The two wounds on his chest are definitely the Morgul blade stab and the cave troll's stab. **** That's all for now, I think...
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Johnny lad, computers are the end-all of evil in the Old World communities! You
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Johnny's putterings leave no ill effects on me. I'm afraid I am quite beyond his comprehension (snigger).***Elaine. Hold on thar. Methinks the eloquent Greeleaf has played Grima to your Theoden. Keep your harsh opinion if you must, of what I view as a gorgeous and affecting intercut scene but I daresay you have been unduly influenced.***
Ribbons, thanks for the assist in schooling Johnny. But I think he is already weary of our lack of malcontent. And to add to morGoth's excellent answer, the WK faced countless doughty men in battle, not the least of which was Earnur and survived them all, until this brilliant non-man one-two combo snuffed him. BTW, morG, allow me to congratulate you on not going ballistic that the actual BOW was not referrenced. I am thrilled that you are happy with the sequence, as I am. It got the HUGEST screaming applause in my theatre.***Miami, here here, yes, all hail your early confidence of the 10 fingered Frodo and Sam weepy shot.***And ATTENTION FRODO LOVERS - get thee to TORN to read a lovely article all about how brilliant an actor is our own Elijah!***One more hour and I will be watching the greatest movie ever made! I can't believe I have butterflies in my stomach AGAIN! -
In that case, I can dig it.
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Dec 23, 2003 8:24:44 PM CST
I'm still looking for the "cannonballer" orc and the flooding of
by wall builder
and now you say Eowyn is not at the Black Gate after all? Rats. Did I mention Eowyn looked especially radiant in ROTK? ****** Elanor: less than a minute of PJ's women and children? hmmmm. I always thought those scenes valuable to the movie anyway. Ya HEAR THAT MorGoth? -oh, and while we're speaking of ol' cinder britches, MorGoth - didn't Gandalf also mention the prophecy somewhere in LOTR? I would have liked to have seen the WK as in the book - a black void between his shoulders and crown. ****** I haven't heard much white-shirt swoonage speak from you women here. You've been at it so long I found myself noticing who was wearing a white shirt during the movie. (note to Johnny - no, I'm not a fag). While we're at it, what about the SWOOPAGE? Much swoopage, indeed. ********* I had the negative reviews in my head during the Denethor eating scene, and didn't like it much - but 2nd time around I found the cuts very appropriate. I think I might come to rate this scene very high, which is saying a lot. (funny that one negative review at rotten tomatoes ripped that scene, while another negative review praised that scene as the only good bit in the movie). ****** Also loved "grond! Grond! GROND!" ************ last note - I'm serious about the cannonballing orc - someone be kind and direct me to the exact spot, if you please.
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But I'm still convinced I saw Eowyn at the Black Gate, as I wondered what she was doing there! Wouldn't dream of touching the whole Rohirrim civilian issue again, except to say that I thought the Gondorian civilians behaved with greater dignity under similar stress. I imagine one's tolerance for drooling Denethor is also a factor of whether watching it literally makes you sick, and pulls you out of the scene. Most women I know could do with a lot less of the "ick" factor. Frothing Frodo didn't do much for me, either, but then, I don't even like to watch other people brush their teeth. Without it, the scene would have been much more swoon-worthy. Also, if Sam had torn off a bit more spiderweb.... It is hard to get the full effect of exposed throat and white shirt, when it's all under wraps.
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and sadly for me livid Frodo still has unfortunate resonance to EW's appearance on SNL a few weeks ago (when he dressed up like Boy George). *shudder* He did a great Boy George, but it totally messed up my reception of that scene. I rather liked the frothing though. Seemed a reasonable and suitably gross (yet fairly understated) way to indicate that he was poisoned rather than stabbed ---- I don't really object to the way Denethor eats. Not only is he clearly trying to eat in an unconcerned manner (and failing), I see it as part of his dissolution and a little bit of the barbarian king element that comes out full force when he chooses to die by fire. Also, the use of red wine and spurting red tomatoes was clearly intended to evoke a disgusted reaction with its allusion to the immanent shedding of blood. Maybe a bit heavy handed, but I LOVE the subtext of Billy Boyd's performance there and am willing to forgive all SORTS of things. ---- I was interested to note that once Pippin's song is over, we get NOTHING about what happens to the futile attack. All that build up for the attack, then we don't get the attack or any mention of what happens to the doomed sortie. There's a long foray into other things, and then Faramir shows back up at the gates. It felt forgetful rather than deliberate. I figure it was meant to create the impression that they were slaughtered, but that sort of lessens the impact of Faramir's return for me. It makes it stand out as this strange and unexplained reprieve from an otherwise complete and utter destruction. Also, I suppose it's meant to leave us hopping in our seats going BUT WHAT ABOUT FARAMIR!?! but I don't think it did (conflicting as it does with the "they've all died" impression). I like it in theory, but I think the film was too rushed for the execution to be as powerful as it could have been. It didn't properly build tension for me. ---- One thing I did not like was that Denethor was shoved back onto the pyre so it isn't clear that in the end he definitely chose death over life. I wanted the scornful laughter and the prideful choice. Instead, we get his moment of yearning towards Faramir, without the definitive shift back to madness. On the other hand, I might have missed it since there was rather a lot going on right then! The acting in these films really stands up to repeated viewing, and is very nuanced. So I have high hopes for viewing #2, and all others after it. Paper #1 should be done soon, so I get to go again and revel in all the many things I adore amidst the few things I wished were more thoroughly explored.
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I wasn't sure when I saw it. I thought it was neck, but I don't remember that scene too clearly and at this point I can't even remember if he realized that he had been stung. Thinking back to the Cave Troll scene doesn't help either. In that scene, Frodo ends up with a hole in his shirt that is about where the mark is on his chest later. BUT, the shot of him standing with the pike stuck in him has it more lower left ribs area (sort of that whole, 'here, hold it under your arm' thing). So, I've never really been able to reconcile in my head where he'd been piked! Hm. I guess I'll just have to watch it again! And again... and again....
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It's an interesting choice of words on the part of Tolkien (picked up by the film) that suggests that the Gondorians follow the true faith and that self-immolation belongs to a less correct belief system. A king might be "heathen" and still have elegant table manners, just as many societies that considered suicide to be honorable (the Romans, the Japanese) might be quite ceremonial. The red tomato/blood symbolism is a bit heavy-handed, anyway. And there is something a bit lacking in the way the attack fails... but is dropped from the narrative, until the horse shows up at the gate (through a seemingly impenetrable sea of orcs). Also, isn't it a bit ironic that Faramir goes off on a suicide mission to placate his father, leading an entire cavalry to its doom, and becomes the only survivor? I preferred Faramir as the gallant, stricken hero of a desperate, rear-guard action, who falls while helping SAVE lives. (This is not intended as a criticism of David Wenham's acting, the poignance and elegance of the charge, or the flower-strewing - just another example of the subtle alternations and how they affect character.)
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Elanor: So you think I've been Grimaed into disliking the cross-cut scene, eh? Well, I feared so myself after my second viewing, so I tried to watch the scene with an impartial eye last night, and to my dismay I liked it even less. I mean, I LOVE the way Faramir leaves his father's hall, the flowers, and the way the charge begins (probably my second-favourite scene of the film - brings tears to my eyes every time!), but then to cut away from the charge and show us what else is going on at that time... and then to drop the scene altogether... I'm sorry, but to me that's wasting perfect material. I'm glad you like the scene, though. Don't let me Grima you into disliking it! **** Little moments I really like: Pippin saying, "We are sitting here..." at Orthanc; Frodo saying "Sam" when Sam gives him some lembas bread without wishing any for himself; Eowyn looking radiant at Edoras; Smeagol's "up-up-up!" during the Gollum-in-the-water scene; the look on Eowyn's face when Theoden tells her to take his throne, just after Aragorn has rejected her; the expression on Merry's face just after Sam has walked up to Rosie in the Green Dragon; and just about every time Gandalf smiles and Pippin opens his mouth. I'm with you on that one, Daughter of Time: the accent is irresistible. **** Two little Sam scenes I'd like to see inserted into the EE: (1) Sam taking the ring and getting a vision of himself as Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, flaming sword in hand; (2) Sam passing the Two Watchers at the Tower of Cirith Ungol with the help of the Phial of Galadriel. The way that scene is edited now, you get a close-up of the Watchers, and then there's a cut to Sam inside the Tower. I want to see what happens inbetween those two shots! **** Oh, and Merry Christmas, everyone! Or, as one of my friends wrote to me, "A happy, hobbity Christmas"!
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Sorry if I stole your thunder, Elanor. (And diluted it into a low rumble over distant hills) I just got all twitchy, can
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Heh, must have been my
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Merry Christmas (or happy holiday, if you prefer) to all! :) Sorry to have been rather abvsent recently. When I've not been shopping for presents, I've been in the Green Dragon, as you correctly guessed Pip! Speaking of which, I've got a couple more presents to pick up and I do believe I hear the ale calling me to meet my brother and friends in the pub! ----- "You can keep your fancy ales, you can drink them by the flagon, but the only brew for the chosen two, comes from the Green Dragon!" (Something like that anyway, I've only seen the film twice so far!) -------- A shameless plug for my local: "If you like gorgeous ales, like to pour them down your hatchet, then the bestest pub (with tasty grub), is the Rat and Ratchet!"
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Dec 24, 2003 8:50:56 AM CST
Bah! Humbug!! What's all this business about a Merry Christmas?
by miami mofo
I'm planning on having a Merry and Pippin Christmas! :~) See you at the movies.
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Poor Johnny, if only he
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There ya go ye great Mofo ya {[:^) Snif, doesn't look like I'll be able to go until the weekend again. Brutha Dave has the flu-crud so he and Byron the Tall can't go until Dave is all healed up. Still, the morGettes want to go again so maybe I'll get a doub;e-header in this weekend. Whoo-hoo!
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just popping in to say Merry Christmas to one and all, as it is now (well actually 2hrs and 12 minutes ago) Christmas downunder. May you all have a fantastic day and enjoy much good cheer (as I have...) Well must go it is rather late and I might actually be tempted to read some posts. I don't get to see this movie until Friday (sigh...) Cheers.
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No, no, I am not worried about not seeing the effect of Faramir's charge - we have battles enough - but just that all thought or mention of him (or his doomed squadron) disappears until his horse shows up. This is a part where a bit of grieving populace WOULD help. I can easily see a missing hour and a half, particularly between the throne room and the Black Gate. And the textile designers did refer to Arwen's "wedding" banner and Ngila to that green dress being her "wedding" dress, so there must be a wedding. While hoping for a much longer Sam-gearing-up-to-leave-Frodo and (since the EE will be for the book-read audience and not the groundlings) a scene that shows Sam does take the Ring and notes its effect on him, I fear the still-cocooned Frodo being carried off by the orcs argues against much lingering, though I'm hoping for an alternate take. I CERTAINLY want Sam using the Phial to get past the Watchers, but even more, the two of them being trotted along by orcs. And seeing that single star shining above Mordor would be a real plus. We haven't had nearly enough of stars....
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SWOONERY? You guys want swoonery? I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you'll have to wait until the EE comes out for me to swoon, for as far as I'm concerned there is little swoon-worthy in the theatrical cut. Sure, I am excessively moved by Faramir (the sight of him standing there while Pippin swears fealty to Denethor, just before Denethor tells him to go and defend Osgiliath, just about breaks my heart), and I find myself grinning manically every time Pippin opens his mouth and looks into the camera with those big, innocent eyes of his, but the only guy who gets me remotely swoonish is Eomer, who has all too few scenes in the theatrical cut. Sigh. To tell you the truth, I'm still surprised by how utterly delectable I find Eomer, because normally I am not at all into guys with beards, moustaches and long hair. But oh, Eomer. He just wouldn't be the same without the mane, the moustache and the smell of horse that visibly hangs about him, which is probably why the sight of Karl Urban being Karl Urban (shaven, short-haired and wearing jeans) doesn't do anything for me. He needs the facial hair (lots of it), as well as the magnificent scowl he wears in the films. Oh, that scowl. Give me scowling Kiwis every day! **** I'm hoping for some good, swoon-worthy Aragorn or Frodo moments in the EE. In the meantime, I'll feast my eyes on Eowyn. I probably shouldn't be saying this, but I'm totally with you on the RES, MorGoth. Though I guess you already knew that. :-) **** Incidentally, my favourite swooning moment of all three films combined would have to be Aragorn opening the gate at Helm's Deep. I know some of you listed that moment amongst your favourite "Two Towers" scenes a while ago when I was still lurking, and I also know that many of the others (particularly the men) couldn't see why, but I'll tell you this: it is the single most testosterone-filled moment of the trilogy, and I very nearly literally swooned when I first saw it. The power in those arms, the determination on that face... whoa. Hell yes, baby. **** RUNE: Would you believe I hardly noticed Merry and Pippin's charge the first time I saw the film? However, I definitely noticed it last night, and like you, I felt like cheering. Aren't they brave little mannies? Not quite swoon-worthy perhaps, but definitely heart-warming. **** As for Faramir's charge, I'm not saying I need to see the carnage that follows when Jackson cuts away from the cavalry's charge; as others have said, there is plenty of action elsewhere in the film, and I don't need more of it to grasp the tragedy of what is about to take place off screen. I just wish they'd found a better scene to follow that cut, for the way they cut away from the charge now (leaving the Gondor storyline altogether) really doesn't work for me. I also wish they had found a better way to integrate the return of Faramir's horse into the film, as the way that horse now appears at the city gate is curiously undramatic. Daughter of Time is right: we need more grief there, more drama. Something to match the tremendous build-up of the charge. For the build-up of that charge is great; it's just the lack of closure that ruins it. That, and far too many unnecessary close-ups of Denethor and the orcs. But I'll shut up about those. :-) **** QUESTION: Am I right in thinking that the voice of the King of the Dead belongs to someone we know? According to the IMDB, the King was played by Paul Norell, who is listed as having worked only on "The Return of the King". Listening to his voice, though, I couldn't help thinking that he sounds a lot like one of the "Two Towers" Uruk-Hai - one of those lovely "meat's-back-on-the-menu" cuties who make me laugh rather than swoon. Anyone else think so, too?
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Norfolk Pip? Damn but it always freaks me out just how many US places are named after UK places! ---------- Hi there MorG. PJ may indeed be aiming to please the unread audiences, but for three films in a row (plus EE versions even more so) it's never ceased to amaze me how far he's gone to please the book fan despite the risk of confusing or alienating the Un-read. Just in this film I was pleased to hear part of Bilbo's rhyme for Aragorn (worked well in the film), pleasantly surprised to hear Elrond and Aragorn quote Gilraen's (Aragorn's mother for those that can't remember) "I give hope to Men. I keep none for myself." (possibly slightly confusing to the unread, but still worked well in the film) and over the moon surprised and delighted to hear everyone in Gondor call Gandalf "Mithrandir" (totally pointless in the film for the unread, not to mention potentially confusing, but wonderful for us read-first, or me at least!). See you late folks! :)
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I really mean the voice of the King of the Dead, not that of the Witch-King. I'm aware that the Witch-King (and Gothmog) are voiced by the same guy who earlier played Lurtz, but I can't help feeling that the voice of the King of the Dead has also been used earlier, as an Uruk-Hai's voice. Anyway, off to bed now... Christmas is upon us...
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Taking a break from the family festivities to say hey. Yes, we're hosed again! MORG: Yeah, when I heard Sam
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I may make this a Christmas Eve trilogy of posts. The entire Riders of Rohan sequence, Theoden is swoony too! "To me! To Me!"***I also swoon for Legolas both for his intense
"the stars are veiled, the eye of the enemy is moving, he is here!" and for his uber-cool
"have you learned nothing of the stubbornness of Dwarves" and his last manly arm-on-shoulder grasp of his newly crowned friend. Gimli gets a cool swoon moment himself with "where do you think you -
Thus concludes my trilogy of posts on a hosed Christmas Eve tb.***DoT: Look in the lower right corner of your screen right after the burning ent douses his head. The shot cuts to a wooden scaffolding being swept by the flood into a fissure. To the right of the scaffolding, along the edge of the fissure, a dozen or so orcs are caught and swept over by the rushing water but one of them actually leaps and then tucks up his legs as if jumping into a pool. Freeze the frame as soon as it cuts from Ent to scaffold then inch forward a frame at a time and you
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Dec 25, 2003 8:58:21 AM CST
'Tis the morning after the night before Christmas, and what do I
by miami mofo
An Orc jumping in the pool yelling, "CANNONBALL!!!!!!!!!" Splash! ***Ingold, DoT - said Orc can be found, as elanor stated, right after the Ent dunks his burning head into the onrushing flood. On lower right of your screen you will see several Orcs get washed into the chasm. One of them jumps before the water arrives and pulls up his legs to form a classic cannonball. This occurs at: TTT - chapter 49 @ 162:08 / TTT-EE - disc 2, chapter 59 (if you access using the on-screen menu; chapter 29 if you access using the number buttons on the remote control) @ 92:46. ***Going to the 1PM show today. I don't expect to find Eowyn at the Black Gate, but I will look hard for her anyway. I think that Eomer's helmet with the blond horsehair on the top might have confused some folk, so we shall see. Yes we shall, my precious. ***And a Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a wet CANNONBALL!!!!!!!!! :~)
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Will this work?
Merry Christmas all -
Curiously, the swoon quotient has been going downhill since the first film, with many potential swoons remaining unfilmed or yet to be seen. The rewriting of Frodo's story - not to mention Faramir's - has cost us many swoon-worthy moments, as has the ramping up of the "ick" factor. (Difficult to swoon while gagging, which is the pity about the charge: two swoon-worthy characters with serious "ick" interference by a third.) And the Houses of Healing should have been just full of white-shirted moments, with one character after another pulling our heartstrings by being romantically feverish, not to mention Aragorn's most kingly moment - proving that he has the Hands of a Healer. And damn it, what happened to Sam's "last sight" of Frodo before he leaves him: "And for a moment he lifted up the Phial and looked down at his master, and the light burned gently now with the soft radiace of the evening-star in summer, and in that light Frodo's face was fair of hue again, pale but beautiful with an elvish beauty, as of one who has long passed the shadows." You just don't get a better swoon than that!
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llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll
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llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll
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I am now an Elf, as I just got back from my THIRD viewing. This time, because I looked very, very carefully, I can UNEQUIVOCALLY state that Eowyn does NOT appear before the Black Gate. And as I thought, and previously posted, Merry rides there on the back of Eomer's horse.
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Great pub song - did you know I have a penchant for poetry? Hmm... you wouldn
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Don't know what's wrong with me - Eowyn, not Eowen. I did it twece!
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Merry Christmas indeed! Conan's mathom is hanging out at the very top, FYI.
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I am not Conan, of course. But I think he will LOVE it! I laughed I giggled I smiled and I bow to your skill!
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Lots of posts near the top, you latecomers.
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Both very funny and touching at the same time. *snicker* Hope all of you celebrating holidays have had a good one, and hoping everyone else has had a nice couple'a days. I STILL haven't written my first paper (it just keeps receding into the distance as I pick up each new piece of reference material, gotta stop that or it'll NEVER get done). Hopefully, 2nd viewing by Sunday! *pant pant, look desperate* SOOOOO frustrating. My cousins were watching TTT tonight when I got to my aunt's house, but they were watching the THEATRICAL version, and weren't even paying attention! Demmed philistines....
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Thankee indeed Rune, I laughed my arse 'off' with your poetry, if only I possessed the talent to return the favour... What did I think of ROTK? Much, although I've only just got back and haven't had time to "digest it" yet. I liked just about everything, although the Army of the dead was just a bit hokey in my opinion and was not an improvement over the "Corsairs of Umbar". I thought the battle of the Pelennor fields was pretty good, though I wonder what happened to Ingold's wall? I would have liked to have seen a sortie or 2 from Gondor when Sauron's forces were advancing over the fields and would have liked to see the Rohirrim achieve surprise in their charge. Other than more of the story from the book, I was pretty happy with the film. Other than missing the 5 sold out sessions... This movie IS going to be the biggest movie ever released in Australia... I shall consider further and report anon. Cheers.
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**** RUNE: How utterly fantastic to wake up to such wonderful poetry! I
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I told you I recently convinced my un-Read and un-Seen mother and brother to watch
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After my third viewing, I've begun to realize what it is about Frodo telling Sam to go home that rings false for me. It's not so much that Frodo tells Sam to go, because although it does change the book Frodo, I still think it works with the characters that P.J. has given us. Having said that, what rings false to me, is that Sam (be it P.J.'s or Tolkien's) would actually start down the stairs and head home. There's no way, based on what I've seen of "movie" Sam these past two years, that he would ever leave Mr. Frodo. I guess I just expected Sam to gather himself together after Frodo leaves with Gollum and silently follow behind. ***I was noticing, during the Coronation scene, that the White Tree had a sapling. Aragorn's finding of the sapling will, no doubt, be something else to see on the FIVE HOUR EE. [Along with the Pippin/Shadowfax "bonding" scene, of course! :~)]
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Heh, that
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Rune, it occurs to me I probably made an arse of myself in my reply to your response to MorGoth about the Black Breath. You brought up the amount of time it would take for the Black Breath to take effect, I said Eowyn isn't struck by the Black Breath at all (because Gandalf, at the Houses of Healing, doesn't mention those words in relation to her, whereas he does when he examines Faramir), and now it occurs to me that losing consciousness and turning all despondent after stabbing the Witch-King is probably what the Black Breath is all about. I'm not sure, though. What exactly IS the Black Breath? I thought it was some kind of curse that inspired fear in foes and rendered them unconscious; I didn't think it had anything to do with actual PHYSICAL contact with a Nazgul, such as Eowyn's and Merry's. Are Eowyn's loss of consciousness and her cold, limp arm after her thrust at the Witch-King indeed symptoms of the Black Breath or is there some other kind of witchcraft at work here?
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Rune and Elaine, I wasn
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Yes, I see what you are saying about our Samwise and I completely agree that is is waaaayyy out of character fro him to leave Frodo like that. My thinking would be that he would
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I looked in Letter
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Huzzah!
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I find that I am visited by the black breath after the consumption of one too many anchovies.
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Dec 26, 2003 2:07:19 PM CST
No worries morG. Splicer says it's NOT Gamling - and more on Sam
by elanor
I can't say for sure that it is Eowyn but it only makes sense for the prone body Eomer is weeping over to be Theoden or Eowyn and my money is on Eowyn, no matter how chipper she may seem at the point of Theoden's death. I think she is putting on a brave face and is overcome in the next frame. But allow me to turn your attention to a post by one "Splicer" that appeared on Latauro's tb. He/She writes with quiet authority and I believe knows whereof he/she speaks. Perhaps his/her nick is a givewaway? Here it is: "The Scouring of the Shire was not even filmed...so it will not be in the EE. The actual shot of Saruman falling was done some time ago. Completed, but not included as the whole scene was deleted. Mouth of Sauron: The Mouth tries to play mind-games with the heroes. In fact, they do NOT believe him. The scene has a cool pay-off which I won't reveal. Then the Orcs come. Eomer does bawl in the trailer, but the person he is cradliing is NOT Gamling. Yes, there is a cool Gandalf vs Witch King confrontation. There are also some other cool things not in the released version. I don't see New Line cutting corners with the FX. These films are going to make tonne of money. Why **** it up now? No chance. P.S. ROTK is one FUCKING AWESOME MOVIE! P.J. and Weta Rule!! Cheers." I have e-mailed Splicer and asked him/her to join us here. Wouldn't it be nice to have another Ninja Galadriel? Please, boys, lay off the
corncob jokes!***Miami: yes I agree, it is Sam's action that rings false to me, too. Elijah is so good at connecting his "go home" line to his love of Sam, not wanting the Ring to further corrupt him. This idea of The Ring's inevitable corruption of everyone in proximity has been torturing our film-Frodo since Galadrial first whispered "you bring great evil here, Ringbearer". The idea was furthered when she said "The Fellowship is breaking. It has already begun...One by one it will destroy them all" and then confirmed when Boromir succumed. Frodo says to Aragorn "it has taken Boromir" and "Can you protect me from yourself?" So, dear Elijah makes the line work to the extent he can by turning it into a "save yourself from further harm" (even though how poor Sam could possibly GET home or even to a single safe haven at this point is not contemplated!). BUT, as far as Sam is concerned, the point of this scene, and his action, is for Sam to get to his "darkest hour" or "point of despair". This (and reversals, and the "charater arc") is a basic, formulaic screenwriting device
that would be totally out of place in most artistically made films but I believe their use is justifiable to a large degree in this very long, epic, multi-main-
character film. Of course I still
wish such devices were more thoroughly woven into the fabric,
but it is hard to deny the solid payoff that it achieves. If Sam did not reach his "darkest hour" or "point of despair" and head down the stairs, it would not be as moving (to a general audience)
when he turns back (although I still wish an better way had been found). BTW, judging from the last time I saw it, Sam does not get very far down the stairs before he finds the lembas bread.
Green-glowing Minas Morgul is
still very small below him. Please forgive me if the above sounds pedantic. I guess this is not really news to most of you,
but I was just having this discussion with my sister and her boyfriend yesterday and they were asking about this stuff. Also, I know a lot of actors and they all absolutely love character arcs. They love the chance to play a point of despair
and the rally that follows. I've known actors to turn down a role if there is "no arc to play" even when good money is attached to it. Tolkien certainly didn't write with "character arcs" in mind, but they found their way in anyway ("you have grown, halfling").***Alright, enough talkbacking! Better get my chores done. -
I would have looked them up myself (the ones in "The Lord of the Rings", anyway) if I hadn't still been holed up at my parents, where I haven't got my copy of the book ready at hand (unpardonable, I know). Anyway, judging from the entry in the "Tolkien Companion" you quoted, the illness from which Merry and Eowyn suffer MIGHT actually be some sort of manifestation of the Black Breath, even if Aragorn doesn't specifically mention it - a particularly bad case of the Black Breath which bypasses the dream stage and plunges straight into the unconsciousness-and-death stage. Either that or it's something akin to the wound Frodo receives at Weathertop, which Strider also tries to cure with kingsfoil - much as he later heals Faramir AND Eowyn and Merry with kingsfoil. Isn't it conceivable that Eowyn's/Merry's stabs at a Nazgul might have the same effect on them that a stab BY a Nazgul has on Frodo? And if it is, might not Merry and Eowyn, suffering from a Frodo-just-after-Weathertop-like illness, possibly have turned into wraiths (the fate said to await Frodo after Weathertop) if they had not been cured by Aragorn? I don't think there's any suggestion of that in the book, but it's an interesting thought. **** I also find myself wondering whether Aragorn, when he says that "those who take a weapon to such an enemy must be sterner than steel", includes himself among those "sterner than steel", or whether he is referring to wizards. What do you think? Would Aragorn have fallen ill if he rather than Eowyn and Merry had slain the Witch-king, or would he have been resistant to such an evil influence? I don't think it's possible to answer that question, but it's an interesting matter to speculate about. **** As for my winning my parents over to our Cause, it's been a total and utter triumph. Truly it has. As I write this, my father is downstairs watching the documentaries on the "Two Towers" EE, and he's asked me not to leave until tomorrow evening so that he can have a shot at the "Fellowship" docs, too. And not only is he really getting into the movies, but he might actually give the book another try as well, after one prematurely aborted attempt made some 35 years ago. And my father hardly ever reads fiction! How's that for a successful and well-spent Christmas? Talk about converting the heathens!
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in the book Eowyn wakes up in the HoH and tells Eomer that the voices had told her that he was dead. So, she was having bad dreams too. I like to think of the BB as some sort of hyperactive combination of depression and combat fatigue. The realization that one could have physical symptoms to imagined illnesses due to high stress situations was realized in WWI (some research on heart disease I did for a paper on _The Good Soldier_ comes in handy when least expected). I can imagine that Tolkien would take this, and add a layer of despair caused by proximity to evil. So, the death caused is the dying of the spirit which gives up hope and takes the body with it. At least, that's how I look at it. ELAINE, I've always taken Eowyn and Merry's illness to be advanced BB instantaneously delivered by contact rather than the slow creeping illness experienced by everyone else, and not at all like the Morgul blade wound Frodo had. ---- I really can't imagine Eomer bawling over Gamling like the clip/pic we've seen. There are plenty of important people who get killed in a battle, and Pelennor decimates their forces. He's going to weep for Gamling and no one else? Nah. It's got to be Eowyn, as others have said (I can't even wrap my brain around the idea that people even find the Gamling idea plausible). In that, I think/hope they'll have her try to fight a bit more and then fall down, overcome by grief and the 'accelerated' BB of striking the WK. Her words to Theoden right before he dies helps substantiate that for me. She wanted to 'save' him and having him die right then, even with his loving words, would NOT help her depression or sense of uselessness. I like the idea because it reflects a growing up, a turn from fighting for renown (self) to fighting against evil (for others) which she demonstrated just a tiny bit in the Muster scenes when discussing M with Eomer. Something similar (in terms of fighting a bit more and then collapsing) must happen to Merry, too, since he's actually found UNDER a dead orc (sorta like Pippin is found under a dead troll in the book). I think a significant amount of the end of the battle of the Pelennor Fields was left out (in the cursed Rushing of the Film).
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I, too, used to think that whatever affliction Eowyn suffers from after her fight with the Witch-king is a pretty bad and instanteous form of the Black Breath, which is why I was so surprised to (1) find her capable of crawling to Theoden and hearing his final words in the film, and (2) discover that there is no mention of her suffering from the Black Breath in the book. But, as I more or less said in my previous post, there is no reason to assume that she doesn't suffer from the Black Breath just because Aragorn doesn't mention those exact words. I'm pretty convinced it IS the Black Breath. My Frodo-type-wound suggestion (which only came to me two hours ago and wasn't very well thought-out - ahem!) was merely based on my sudden recollection that Frodo's illness, like Eowyn's and Merry's, is kept at bay with athelas, which led me to believe that they might be related. (Which, obviously, they are. They're both Nazgul-wrought diseases. D'oh!) I think I may also have been unduly influenced by the fact that in the film version of "The Fellowship of the Ring", the impact of the Witch-king's stab with the Morgul blade on Frodo is as instantaneous as Eowyn's reaction to stabbing the Witch-king himself in the book. I remember, however, that in the book, Frodo's succumbing to the Morgul wound is far more gradual, which makes your point about Eowyn's affliction being very different from Frodo's valid. I probably should have thought harder before I posted that suggestion. Oh, well. One more incoherent post with flawed, ill-considered and occasionally self-contradictory arguments won't hurt, eh? After all, they're my speciality! **** Incidentally, I like your suggestion that Eowyn's particularly nasty case of Black Breath Syndrome might be a "hyperactive combination of depression and combat fatigue". It seems very obvious that it's a kind of spirit-goes-first-and-takes-body-with-it affliction (how very "Matrix"!), but I hadn't thought about it in psychosomatic combat-under-pressure terms. Interesting. If only other soldiers suffering from it could have a cure like Faramir! **** For the record, can I just point out that I, too, think that the person the desperate Eomer is cradling in the trailer is Eowyn? I merely brought up the Gamling notion because it was mentioned by a scooper and because it seemed to fit in somewhat with my own observation that Eowyn doesn't appear too badly injured in the film. But God, I hope that the scooper turns out to be wrong, and that Eowyn is as badly affected by whatever it is that ails her in the film as she is in the book. I want that Eomer-bawling-his-head-off-over-Eowyn scene as much as the rest of you, and agree that it makes far more sense than Eomer passionately mourning Gamling (although I could see him bawling his head off over the loss of Theoden). Again, I was only responding to something that was reported! [Djinnj: "No one was accusing you of anything, Elaine!" Elaine: "No, but I'm the defensive type. Sorry."]
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Dec 26, 2003 8:02:45 PM CST
Eowyn-gushing for MorG and a brilliant cooking idea for Djinnj (
by elaine
"Greatest and Chiefest of Flaming Marshmallow Balrog Creators"? Plural? No no no. That title belongs to Djinnj, and to Djinnj alone. I don't deserve such lofty epithets. I'm the Mount-Doom-out-of-mashed-potatoes girl, remember? Not nearly as impressive as Djinnj's Balrog, alas, but I'll stick to my taters and just you wait, some day I'll create something magnificent out of them! Oh yes, you will bow to my mashed-potato-moulding skills yet. All shall love me and despair. Yes. Quite. **** Say, Djinnj, how about a Minas-Tirith-shaped Christmas pudding next year? With a tree on top of it, a flaming square-candle beacon and a sparkler to create that all-important Comet Denethor effect? I'd pay to see photos of that, you know! **** As cool as the slaves-to-the-necromancer idea may be (hey! I brought up a cool idea!), I'm not going to dwell on it any further, I think. If I spend one more minute discussing this subject, it'll do my head in and I'll become a slave to the necromancer (not you, oh sooty one!) myself. Can't let that happen, can I? **** Miranda Otto's Eowyn? Brilliant. Absolutely spot-on. True, I'd imagined her looking slightly colder, slightly more aloof, but now that I've seen Otto, I know that that is what Eowyn is really like. Beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night, fair as the sea and the sun and the snow upon the mountains... wait, no, that's the other blonde. But yeah, Eowyn. Pure, radiant, determined, and utterly beguiling. Mesmerising. Yes, that's her, a hundred per cent. And while I'm not completely convinced by the way she vanquishes the Witch-king, I find the way she wields her sword in the famous "you've-some-skill-with-a-blade" scene utterly phenomenal. Hell, I want to learn how to swing a sword like that! I want to be as radiantly in love as she is! And dammit, I want to marry Faramir! Even the sad excuse for a Faramir that Jackson et al have concocted! I'll be un-Elaine to his un-Faramir! I'll change my name to Eolyn if he wants me to! **** And on that note I'm off to bed, to dream of Faramir and pretend I'm Eowyn, for as Irritable (where is Irritable, anyway?) is wont to say, even insomniacs need SOME sleep. G'night all!
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... so forgive this if it seems to ramble **** Rune - must add my compliments to the poet. (must ask, that "quiet as the sun on the river" bit - is that yours? most excellent) Bean, you must earmark it for the (poets corner? house of elrond? halls of fire?) section of your site. While I'm thinking of it, check out ragingbull.com site. They allow you to click anyones handle (huh?) and pull up all of their posts. goot idea, no? ******** ROTK- Did you all notice, during the charge of the Rohirrim that swift snowmane outran them all? **** Spider-wrapped frodo: when the orcs found him, he still seemed wrapped to the neck. hmmmmmm... how did sammy get the ring and phial, we wonders? ******* Elaine - I too have found EVERY non-read viewer to like very much the Gimli comments. ******* Miami - Sam's leaving Frodo when spurned. I thought the leaving was believable enough, in that he was hurt, and not himself. Not thinking clearly. But I was less certain of his motivation to return - the lembas. What, he saw the bread, remembered gollum, and that brought him to the conclusion "hey, see! I WAS right! I DIDN'T eat the lembas. I KNEW it all along! That dratted gollum". Since, of course, he couldn't have ever thought otherwise, why would THAT bring him out of it. Interesting that MorGoth (i think) said the lights were still far below. Makes more sense, since when Gollum drops the bread they 'seemed' to fall much too far for Sam to get back.
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MorGoth, you can forever strike the "wallbuilder", for I am, and always shall be: Ingold . And yes, I thought Eowyn better than I expected. But, that is a tricksy question. She is not better than I thought she was from the book (the way I thought of Film-Boromir), nor better than she ought to have been. Maybe better than I dared hope, would be a proper way to say it. As for others, Theoden pleasantly surprised me. Gandalf was exactly from the book. Boromir, though. I might come out of this most impressed with him. ********** Elanor - I have been asked the same, by many. "why is the fate of the ring tied to Arwen? Why is she dying now? (as in, she gave up her elf-life for mortal, but shouldn't she still live for a bit, or ummmm, what's the point?). Also the "why does frodo have to leave".
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Elanor, bring her in. We be nice to them, if they be nice to us! ****** Bean, on your site, can you design a mini-Conan to pop up during your nostagic-hoses you plan to impose (makes us remember these good-old-days, no?). I envision the conan-gif walking out onto the monitor, brandishing sword, exclaiming defiantly "Unhose, Foul Dwimmerlaik!". Maybe it's just me, but I can't see a hosed aicn without remembering that post of his.... ********** Ahhhhh, Ingold not being in the theatrical version. I have not as yet commented on this, because for me, the grief was still too near. I fully expect Ingold's due will be given during the EE. If not, well .... let's just say that me and a few friends might just do something, ohhhhh, I dunno,... like maybe STAGE A FREAK'N COUP, THE LIKES OF WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN ........ ahem. okay. let's just all cross our fingers and pray this never happens....
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Dec 26, 2003 9:34:37 PM CST
now that I've picked myself off the floor from laughing so hard
by djinnj
I can say, Elaine, that I didn't mean you with that Gamling thing! I've seen that speculation all over TORn's and CoE's discussion boards, and no one seems to find it unlikely. This from folk who are still griping about Arwen replacing Glorfindel and riding with Frodo to the Ford! ---- A Minas Tirith Christmas pudding.... Oh dear, that may have just started the "give 'er a challenge and she just has to do it" juices flowing. Luckily, I know nothing about making Christmas puddings... although a cake might work.... No No No! Mus'nt think about baking. Must write papers! ---- morGoth, didn't think you had. I saw the swords go 'pffft' and squeaked with joy. Actually, I squeaked with joy many times. Especially when Frodo said his "I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire" bit. Nearly swooned from a pinnacle of geeky delight that they PUT IT IN! Even modified, they still PUT IT IN! *pant, pant* ----- Ingold (sorry your cameo was cut from the film), Frodo dropped Sting and the Phial earlier in the tunnels. Re: the Ring, I think the idea was that Sam jerked the chain off of Frodo, although I would have loved to see a tender and sad scene where Sam realizes he MUST be dead because Frodo doesn't react to the removal of the Ring. *sniffle* Also, I took Sam seeing the discarded lembas as a bit of a return to reason, if you will. It drives out his self-concern (his confusion and pain) and replaces it with the certain knowledge that Gollum's plan is near to completion. If they had played it the other way with Sam following, there's a sort of calculated self-confidence which I think Frodo telling Sam to leave was meant to undermine. A sort of "He's not right in his head, I have to follow after because he'll get into a situation and he'll need help" which I don't think Sam was capable of at that moment. So, in the film it doesn't come until later, when he's had some time to reflect. And also, with the lembas, the malignancy of Gollum is now proven to have reached a new stage. It's not just whispered planning and his manipulation of fortuitous events to steal Frodo's trust, but a concrete sign that Gollum has moved to the active stage of his plans. Prior to this, I don't think Sam could have any clear idea of when Gollum would betray Frodo.
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(Deep breath take), I loved the battle at first, although I wasn't happy about the Gandalf hitting Denethor with his staff. I didn't like the absence of the Rammas although I did like the charge of the Rohirrim (except the aforementioned bit about the lack of surprise). Lumpy (Gothmog?) was okay, though I would have liked to seen him at the rear. I would also have liked to have seen a quick shot of the Witchking driving his forces on (from the rear) through fear, but one can't have everything, I guess. A confrontation (somewhere) between Gandalf and the Witchking would have been nice, and while I appreciated and applauded the charge of the White Rider, I too thought Pippin's presence was an odd choice, and that scene didn't quite fill me with the same sort of wonder as does the written word. The light of Earendil was sort of the same. I felt that it should have been much braver when Sam charged Shelob. "As if his indomitable spirit had set it's potency in motion, the glass blazed suddenly like a white torch in his hand, It flamed like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light." I have to see it again to completely make up my mind, but I don't recall the phial being that bright! I thought the choices of Master Samwise were given short shrift and hopefully this will be rectified in the DVD EE. As much as I like the extra's in the DVD, I still think it's a bit of a cop out. The choices of samwise is possibly the most important part in the story. He literally saves the entire mission and yet all you get to see is him weeping over Frodo's apparent death and then hiding from the Orcs. No real internal debate over whether to leave his master, whether he should take the ring or just fight the orcs as long as possible. Anyway these things didn't ruin the movie for me, they would have amounted to icing on the cake as it were... I do think it's my favourite out of the 3 movies, though I'll have to see it a few more times to make the decision fully. Cheers.
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Conan, I have to agree that the Phial didn't blaze up quite as blindingly as I had hoped - rather puzzling, since I would have thought that Shelob rearing back and beating with her legs against that blinding light would have been very cinematic. It's always looked just a bit too much light a lightbulb to me.... And I wanted to see the flare-up timed to Sam's courage (and to Frodo's) a little more noticably, rather than being used as one would flick a mere torch in the face of an adversary. As for the Stairs, I completely bought into Frodo's motivation being to save Sam from further contamination - Elijah has done a wonderful job with that, there and later when he is asking for the Ring back in the Tower (there is a note to his insistence that makes me believe he's afraid of triggering Ring-lust in SAM if he makes too sudden a move for it). BUT I'm afraid I will never accept that Sam would have gone back down those Stairs, low ebb or not, though he might have sat down where he was in despair, before he gathered himself up to defy Frodo. (If he is not going to work up his will to leave Frodo later, that would have been an alternate place to work it in, and flash back to what has led him to that point and how he, too, was appointed by the Council that the Errand should not fail.) The lembas was indeed shown to fall a very long way - and it was still a very long way down to Minas Morgul from there. Still, I don't think an already exhausted Sam could have climbed down and back again in the time we see Frodo inside the Cave. I'll accept that more than I will Sam's LEAVING THE LEMBAS when he finds it. I sincerely hope that after crumpling the one bit in his rage, he managed to salvage a few bits, off camera. As I hope that the moment after Theoden's death, Eowyn pitched over in a faint and was found by Eomer. (I just saw the latest trailer, and it MUST be her that Eomer is howling his grief over; also, there are some great shots of Mt. Doom added, for our Frodo-inspired swoons.) Eomer, generally, needs more screen time, as he is so very excitingly intense in what we see.
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Sure, I drop a bit of doggerel here and there but I
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although this has probably already been mentioned. Faramir and Eowyn were affected by depression beforehand. Faramir due to his conflict with his father, and fighting so long near the borders of Mordor. Eowyn from Wormtongues machinations in Rohan. So, while BB is something the Nazgul bring, it takes advantage of, and magnifies, pre-existing despair. Merry, in contrast, really is rather, well, merry. He's a gallant soul and not prone to dwelling on troubles. Thus, he succumbs more slowly and recovers very quickly. There's also a hint of 'reciprocal degree' in how the injuries are described in that it seems like Eowyn dealt the greater blow and thus received the greatest 'blow' in return.
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Yes, the Black Breath does seem to magnify pre-existing troubles, and they seem to be Eowyn's and Faramir's main problem. Very true. However, I have one addition to your post: while it is true that Wormtongue's machinations seem to prey on Eowyn's mind, Eowyn's pre-Witch-king depression has as much to do with Aragorn as with events in Rohan. I'm going from memory here (still haven't got my copy of the book ready at hand - will rectify that situation tonight!), but doesn't Eomer, when Aragorn says that his sister's arm will heal in time but that her full recovery will be hampered by the fact that she doesn't seem to want to go on living (boy, how much more eloquently does he put it!), answer something to the effect of, "and yet, lord, I did not note it until she set eyes on you"? I'm going to have to read the chapter again before I make any further comments, but to me, that line has always stood out. Which is why I love the way Jackson and co have brought Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn to the forefront, and even included something of a rejection scene in the film. It makes Eowyn's recklessness and depression so much more plausible. **** I have to admit I know very little about Christmas puddings, either. Nor do I particularly like the taste of them. I merely suggested you bake one (or seven) because Christmas puddings are very firm (an indispensible quality when you're building a seven-layer cake!) and because the icing on them resembles the marble-like quality of the Minas Tirith stonework. But then, you could put icing on a regular cake, couldn't you? Hmmm. Perhaps I'll look into this matter myself. Perhaps I should relinquish potato-sculpting in favour of cake-sculpting...
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Good summary of Black-Breath-related ailments, Rune, and thanks a bunch for the reassurances on the arse front. Rest assured they were both appreciated! **** A few caveats regarding my limericks: I'm trying to write a whole cycle of them - one for every major character in the book/films (including Shelob and the Fell Beasts) - but I've only come up with one third of them and they're by no means perfect, as (1) I don't have your way with words, (2) I don't have Pallando's and Miami's wicked sense of humour, and (3) I'm writing in a language which isn't my own, which hardly hampers me when I'm writing prose but becomes glaringly obvious when I try my hand at poetry. That said, I think you might enjoy some of them. Oh, and don't tell me I've got the metre wrong - I'm painfully aware of that and have tried hard to find ways to improve my little rhymes, but in vain. This is pretty much the best I can do. Sad but true. Anyhow... **** THE LAY OF ARAGORN: When Gondor-king Elessar, n
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The Lay of Elaine is my favorite :) This, of course, is followed closely by The Lay of Gimli. Yes, I agree with you and djinnj about the BB having a deeper (or quicker to drive a person to despair) effect on those who are already wounded in spirit. Yes Rune, slow coming on and we must remember all those poor foot soldiers had a bit of stress on them too! Now, whether that
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Whutchu talkin
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Alas Ingold, your fame may never be brought to even the home theater screen. Snif
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I must get some things done this morning. Let me hastily add: Yes, I too thought that the Phail would give at least one burst of stupendous light but I did notice that it hurt Shelobs eyes. Pretty tough to get all that across if one is fair about it. ** I was so happy that Frodo
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Dec 27, 2003 10:39:09 AM CST
Question: can someone develop a resistance to the Black Breath?
by miami mofo
Let us not forget that "book" Merry already received a whiff of the Black Breath during his late night stroll at Bree. I wonder if this previous encounter had caused him to form some sort of resistance to BB, kind of like an innoculation. Of course Merry just might have been "protected" from the Black Breath by his "magic dingus" Blade of Westernesse. Or not. [Like maybe because he snuck up on WK from behind, Merry wasn't actually breathed upon.] ***morGy, re Sam, in addition to the cornfield, let us not forget Sam almost drowning in the lake as he refused to be parted from Frodo at the end of LotR:FotR. Sorry elanor, I understand what you're saying, but I hardly think that "a character arc" is needed in this instance. And speaking of Sam's swimming lessons, that was the first thing I thought of when Sam reached down so that Frodo could grab his hand and save himself from meeting Gollum's fate, i.e. when Frodo reached down into the water so that Sam could garb his hand and not drown. ***In regards to giving Eomer something more to do, it's funny how everyone's aware that Legolas singlehandedly brought down a Mumakil, yet 'noone' acknowledges that Eomer brought down TWO charging Mumakils with ONE throw of a spear. Yup, he's the one who throws the spear that kills the Mumakil driver, who as he falls hooks onto the left ear of the Mumakil, directing it into the path of another charging Mumakil. Takes massive cajones to stand in front of an advancing Mumakil, so well done, Eomer!
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Yup, did it again. Allowed my enthusiasm to get the better of me and posted my poetry (ahem) before I'd given it a chance to ripen and mature. Of course, the metrical issues solved themselves right after I'd posted my little lims (duh!), so here are some slightly improved versions: THE LAY OF MERRY: When pint-sized Merry to his lady's aid came / No further need there was for Gandalf Greyhame / He took hold of a blade / Stepped into the shade / And rendered the Witch-king fatally lame. **** THE LAY OF PIPPIN: When Peregrin Took to the White City came / He quickly made for himself a name / Saved Faramir from the pyre / Watched Denethor set himself on fire / After which his life was never the same. **** THE LAY OF SAM: Whisked away from his plants and his weed / Sam attended to his master's every need / But when he went home and became a lord / He failed to get his due reward / For no one ever gave him his mallorn seed! **** THE LAY OF LEGOLAS: Legolas Greenleaf, nimblesome Elf / Took down a mumak all by himself / But when all that was over and done / Gimli shockingly said it only counted as one / Thus earning himself a death in the Delf. **** THE LAY OF ARWEN: Her beau had to enter the Paths of the Dead / To save Middle-earth from a darkening threat / And when all that was done / And Sauron was gone / She finally got to drag him off to her bed. **** I promise I will think harder before I post the next bunch!
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MIAMI: Interesting point about Merry's resistance to the Black Breath. Who knows? Maybe his catching an earlier whiff of the Breath DOES make him resistant. Personally, I think he is protected by his Elvish blade, though. **** Another question: is the Black Breath to be taken literally? I mean, is it literally the Nazgul's breathing on people that inspires fear in them (thus rendering Merry, at the back of the Witch-king, immune), or is it some kind of curse that hits those in close proximity to the Nazgul? **** You're right, MorGoth - Eowyn isn't fully healed until she accepts Faramir. The famous "This is the Lady Eowyn of Rohan, and now she is healed" line that I love so much. If THAT doesn't make the EE, I will curse Jackson in every language I know! **** Seconds to everyone who has said the Choices of Master Samwise need more screentime. Yes, yes, yes! Lots more time! **** Lastly, some final rewrites (really, I'll get off my soapbox now!): THE LAY OF LEGOLAS: Legolas Greenleaf, nimblesome Elf / Took down a mumak all by himself / But when all that was over and totally done / Gimli shockingly said it only counted as one / Thus earning himself a quick death in the Delf. **** Phew. That's it for today, I think.
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Somewhere in my posts above.... Two mumakil brought down with one spear! That out-does even Legolas, and with much less fuss. He's the coolest warrior of the bunch, in battle if not in single combat (which we haven't seen), being both fierce and human. ***And Morgy, thanks for the cool card. ***Did I mention that at my second viewing, when Sam and Frodo split, a guy behind me yelled, "No WAY would he fall for that!"? Of course, I don't know whether he was talking about Frodo or Sam, but either way, he was right. For cinematic purposes, and because Elijah acts it so well, I'll accept Frodo trying to spare Sam further corruption, but I will NOT accept Sam, who won't be parted from Frodo by anything but death, climbing back down a hopeless path no matter how much his feelings are crushed. When he KNOWS that Gollum is laying a trap for Frodo...?! Their "arc" is the hell of their journey to Mt. Doom; they don't need another. ***And I'd still like to know how Sam got the Ring, with only Frodo's face exposed. Did he dig a little hole in the webbing where he could feel a bump?
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Hmmm. I didn't think the Black Breath stuff was to be taken literally, but look what I just came across when I checked out the Weathertop scene in the book? "Frodo thought that he heard a faint hiss as of a venomous breath and felt a thin piercing chill." That DOES sound like it is to be taken literally, doesn't it? And when Nob finds Merry at Bree, he thinks he sees two dark shapes "stooping" over Merry, "lifting" him. That does sound like Merry is being breathed on, doesn't it? **** What strikes me most about the Weathertop scene is that none of the company seem to suffer any lasting consequences of the Black Breath. I mean, here they are confronted by five Nazgul, who presumably breathe all over them, and yet no one suffers anything worse than a bit of fear - except Frodo, who gets stabbed. There's no mention of bad dreams, numbness or worse. Fascinating, eh? And a tad inconsistent, I dare say. I don't know what it means for our argument (if we have one), but I certainly find it interesting to note. **** As for Eowyn, Merry and Faramir, I just read the whole Houses-of-Healing chapter again, and came across a passage in which Merry and Eowyn (along with many soldiers) are described by the authorial voice as suffering from a malady called the Black Shadow, "and those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died." These are the symptoms of the Black Breath, aren't they? So even if Aragorn doesn't literally say they are suffering from the Black Breath, the authorial voice tells us their malady is very similar to it. Whereas Faramir, who IS diagnosed by Aragorn as suffering from the Black Breath ("Weariness, grief for his father's mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath"), doesn't grow cold (a symptom of the Black Breath), but on the contrary burns "with a fever that would not abate." Apparently, Gandalf and Imrahil initially think the fever derives from a poisoned arrow, but Aragorn later says Faramir's wound is not poisoned. So where DOES that fever come from? Is that wound of his riddled with a "regular" fever-inducing infection? Is the fever merely a symptom of his exhaustion? Whatever it is, it is odd that someone who is officially diagnosed as suffering from the Black Breath is feverish rather than numb and cold. Very odd. Riddles in the dark... **** Oh, and before you point it out to me, MorG, I know I screwed up that Faramir quote in my earlier post. "This is the Lady Eowyn" indeed! HERE! HERE! Aaargh!
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Elaine, couldn't Faramir be simultaneously suffering from a perfectly normal wound-induced fever in a pre-antibiotic age, and also be suffering the morale-lowering effects of the Black Breath? Perhaps his heart is growing cold while his surface is hot.
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Elaine!!! Fantastic limmericks! I'm rather with you about Faramir. Much as I love Eowyn (book and film), I'd gladly push her off the 'stage' with a well placed elbow to the ribs. ----- I think the BB is more than just breath, but rather an emanation of dread. This is what the Nazgul excell at after all, and they are more powerful when unclothed (streaking Nazgul, eewww....). I think the hobbits are resistant by nature to the BB though, and not by previous exposure. Gandalf makes much of their spiritual resiliency when speaking of Gollum and Bilbo's resistance to the ring, Frodo's willingness to go on a terrifying journey, etc. Remember the description of M&P after they escape from the orcs into Fangorn? How if someone had come upon them they wouldn't realize what a horrifying experience they'd just suffered? They've buoyant spirits which take a lot of wearing down (think Sam!). Thus, Merry healing so quickly and succumbing relatively slowly, and this even after 'direct transmission' and after having been separated from Pippin and felt unwanted amongst all those big Men. Prolonged and repeated exposure seems to make the BB worse (think of the soldiers in Gondor at the edge of breaking). Nonetheless, Aragorn didn't need kingsfoil for anyone else. He was able to call them back through strength of will (after he eats, he goes back to the HoH and works late into the night). It was Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry who had especially profound cases of the illness and required the athelas. ---- I've never really been able to understand Faramir's fever, except that perhaps Tolkien wanted to differentiate it from standard cases of the BB in order to cloud the issue somewhat; to suggest that it was a poison in his veins rather than in his mind. Nonetheless, I like to think that the fever was due to Faramir's strength of will fighting the BB, trying to 'burn' away the cold and failing ("burning, already burning, the house of his spirit crumbles"). He lasted much longer than anyone else under the BB despite his prior depression, and with physical injury as well. ---- Funny, I never took Eowyn's lingering depression to have anything to do with her 'love' for Aragorn, but rather that she'd never actually worked out her troubles from before (the whole Wormtongue period). She goes to war to find death and renown. She gets renown, and she sees her house restored to honor, but she finds that it is empty. What she really wants for herself is to be freed from the prisonhouse of expectation and dull duty in which she sees no honor (vainglory, which turns to depression and a death wish, other no-nos in Tolkien's morality). Much as she cares for her people and despite her great ability, she is still very immature. Her valorous acts are a direct result of her shirking her duty to care for Rohan in Theoden's absence, after all. Hers are selfish, in-looking acts. Although, it's not that she's wrong to try and be happy, she just looks for the solution in the wrong kinds of acts, part of her immaturity after all. Part of her healing is that she begins to realize her immaturity and the limits of her perspective upon speaking to Faramir (that whole wayward child bit on the walls of the garden in the HoH). She hears herself speaking her desires and they suddenly sound foolish. For me, it isn't her love for Faramir that heals her, but rather his gentle insight and focused attention that help her understand her own desires and motivations, and to understand that worth is in the person, not the task. Perhaps she fell in love with Faramir because he listened to her with all his attention and understanding, a friend in evil times rather than a lord. No one else does, after all! Or rather, no one except Wormtongue, who was turning her mind to dark thoughts. *sigh* ---- Y'know, they made a 'dead Faramir' mannequin, just like they did for Boromir. I was thinking they'd use it for Rath Dinen, but they didn't. P'raps they actually did film Denethor with a palantir, or perhaps at least having some sort of dream vision of Faramir dead? *SEEES hope* Mmmmm, fading Faramir (need I mention the oil?).... Swoonalicious. It's nice getting all swoony without feeling their's something immoral about it. Frodo's just too young. It makes it vaguely icky when I contemplate his white-shirted desperation and mistily reflect that he looks like he was carved by Michelangelo.
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Dec 27, 2003 10:29:55 PM CST
I agree that the most important thing is debatable,
by conan_the_humble
but Sam SHOULD have been shown taking the ring IMHO. Plus one thing I just realised, after Sam collects the Lembas bread, I don't think you actually see them eat any of it for the rest of the movie. I realise the point of it in the context of the movie but it's still a bit strange. I didn't really 'get' the whole Arwen's fate being tied to the destruction of the ring either? How? Why? She was never a ring bearer. She had nothing to do with the Ring itself. That seemed like one of the "early" ideas about the story that somehow made it into the final product, praps? I would have liked to have seen Merry swear allegiance to Theoden as well. But then there's a VERY long list of things I'd have liked to have seen in this movie. Well anyhoo I'm off to see it again, in "Gold Class" this time, lovely reclining chairs, a small crowd (only 30 or so in the theatre) and waiters/waitresses serving food and drink throughout the course of the film... Cheers.
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A review of the series couched in "Council of Elrond" terms: http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_44853.asp ***The San Diego Union-Tribume posted a full page of anti-Elliott letters today, attacking him for his snobbish, shallow and ill-informed ROTK review. Alas, none of them was mine, though I thought I made ALL their points quite neatly. ***While glad of ROTK's strength at the box office, I was sorry to see "Peter Pan"'s poor showing, since I, my sister and brother-in-law all found it delightful, a creative but faithful adaptation of the book down to the dark tones and erotic undercurrents (balanced with great fun and joy), beautifully cast and acted, and (save for a few problems with pacing) almost beyond reproach. I'm looking forward to seeing it again. The pirate ship lifted out of the water by fairy dust and then sailing through the top of the London fog is unforgettable.
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I thought it was excellent. Most favorite bit: EW's delivery of the "I'm naked in the dark" scene, just perfect. Least favorite bit: Pippin's scale double looks absolutely nothing like BB in the scene where he runs to the wounded Faramir in the courtyard. *** P.S. Sam is the real hero, NOT Frodo... so there! :-)
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I thought it was excellent. Most favorite bit: EW's delivery of the "I'm naked in the dark" scene, just perfect. Least favorite bit: Pippin's scale double looks absolutely nothing like BB in the scene where he runs to the wounded Faramir in the courtyard. *** P.S. Sam is the real hero, NOT Frodo... so there! :-)
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MorG, concerning Lumpy, combining albinism, von Recklinghausen's disease and psychopathic racism: maybe a little over the top - a Brain Dead Nu Zul'nder flight of fancy. There are rumours he is dispatched by Aragorn in the next SEE. ******** I'm surprised that PJ declined the opportunity to show something of Sauron at the end of all things. There is a huge cinematic moment in the book at the climax of the battle before the Black Gate: "And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell." Potentially an Oscar-winning moment for the CGI team. I thought the Anxious Eyeball was rather cheesy compared to Tolkien's apocalyptic image, with its resonance of Hiroshima.******Conan, I agree with your comment about the hokiness of the Army of the Dead. For me, the luminous green army (not an improvement over the grey misty forms of the book) at the battle of the Pelennor Field turned heroic hand-to-hand fighting into a cheap horror-movie rout. Presumably the script-writers wanted to avoid dealing with a time-consuming digression involving the Haradrim and the Corsairs of Umbar (another group of men who were allies of Sauron), their Gondorian captives, Angbor and the men of Lamedon and Lebinnen, the battle of the docks of Pelagir, and the strangely fortuitous western breeze which brought the fleet to Minas Tirith in the nick of time.********Less forgiveable is Arwen's illness - just ridiculous, the most unnecessary injection of false jeopardy in all of the films, a weak dramatic development, an entirely worthless addition to the script, an ill-considered afterthought which raised several distracting and unresolved questions about a connection between the Ring (or Sauron) and an unrelated character.*****On current indications, I'm guessing Eomer finds Theoden dead and Eowyn apparently dead together on the field: - the double shock is a good explanation for all that manly anguish.******Denethor may be shown to have used a palantir in the SEE. If I recall correctly, he says "I have seen far more than you have guessed" - or words to that effect, to Gandalf and Pippin.******DoT, glad to see that Mr Elliott's snotty and badly written review was refuted, but sorry to hear your acid riposte wasn't published.
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Aside from being one more unnecessary addition to the "ick" factor, Lumpy also raises unwelcome guilty feelings of "Do I hate him just because he's ugly?" due to resemblance to the Elephant Man, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, and other consciousness-raising deformed characters. Above all, however, he is so unnecessary. As I understand it, Lurtz was made prominent in FOTR because it was felt the audience needed the payoff of a memorable villain defeated at the end of each film. And it was a great payoff! The death or defeat of Saruman should have been the payoff of the second film, and Sauron of the third. Instead, in ROTK, we get a superfluous villain who is merely exceptionally deformed (but not particularly powerful, interesting, or a personal threat to any of the heroes) leading to disappointment when he is NOT killed (under the falling chunk of Minas Tirith) but no payoff of seeing him killed - which wouldn't have been much of a payoff, because we don't really care, with so much else at stake. As for the EE, he's not a worthy enough opponent for it to be worth a cheer whether Aragorn dispatches him or not. The falling masonry would have done just fine. ***And Arwen.... WHAT were they thinking? Could they not have left it with the vision of the child and persuading Elrond to bring the sword? And, were we supposed to wonder, or was it originally filmed that way, that it was she bringing the sword to Aragorn (the cloaked figure being indistinguishable as to sex)? Not one thing in either of the first two films would have led anyone to suspect a link between Arwen's life spirit (or whatever) and the Ring. Nor do we see her reviving when the Ring is destroyed.... She just lies there, dying prettily, and then shows up at the coronation. ***And I absolutely WAS hoping for more than the zapping out of the electric Eye to indicate the moment of Sauron's demise. That great, spreading black cloud taking shape only to blow away on the wind is so much more powerful an image, and would have been so much more dramatic visually, than the Eye looking as if its power source had been unplugged. (And am I the only one that thought the pupil of the Eye actually turning side to side looked more cartoonish than threatening?) I'd have preferred a return of Ring Vision, or something like it - a sense of Frodo seeing the Eye looming out of darkness, growing larger and filling more of his vision. A great "wheel of fire," as he says. Knowing that they were so greatly rushed to meet the deadlines for the theatrical release, it would be nice to see some of this reworked for the EE.
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Talk about knowing and catering to your clientele! I note with interest that during weekends (Friday thru Monday, to be precise), Regal South Beach Stadium 18's last showing of LotR:RotK each day is at 8PM. What!?! How can there be no midnight showing in South Beach of all places, you ask? Well the answer is simple. Noone would go to a midnight show because they'd still be getting ready to hit the clubs, that's why. So when can the club-goers see LotR:RotK at Regal South Beach? Why at the 7AM SUNRISE screenings of LotR:RotK, of course. This way, when the clubs close at 6, the young and trendy go get breakfast and then geek out just like the rest of us. Gotta love how the rules are just a little bit different down here. ***Thanks for the card, morG. ***May I suggest a move forty paces to the north to TB# 16706? That's the Euro-AICN post with an Elijah interview link, where almost noone has posted. I think there are a total of ten, the last being Christmas Day (which was the day I became an Elf with my third viewing!). All in favor, say: Hobbits. Opposed, say: Dingleberries.
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Are you gunna mail everyone Miami? ** djinnj...cheats she does?!! Hey, I'm just jealous {[:^)
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Somehow it never gets boring.
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Sure doesn't.
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