Cool News
The Official THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST trailer and website debuts!
Hey folks, Harry here... Got about an hour and a half of conciousness before I doze hard, but caught this in my email box just now and WOW... Caleb's work is just startling here, but the framing, the music, just everything about this trailer makes me want to see the film. Now, you may notice this trailer has tamed down the violence that the early escaped look at the film had, but now... we finally have a high res image to look at and wow. Can't wait to see this trailer on the big screen!
Official Site and New Trailer for The Passion of the Christ
or click here to directly download the trailer:
WOW!
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Shall be Last!
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Friday Night, and I sit & wait...& wait...& wait - others may have a life, but no, not me (oh no, not I) My dreams realized, I can sail off to the West and die I big happy stupid Troll.
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I know it's Friday night and I should be out and about, but this work week combined with finals week has a brotha tired as a muskrat in heat...or something to that effect. This trailer has a nice look to it though, I'm just waiting for the protests.
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Dec 06, 2003 12:23:42 AM CST
Let me be the first to say the effects suck and the similarities
by bendevil
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Someone had to say it.
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... is to s.m.a.s.h. things (walls, especially). Glad Mel had the passion to make a film from the heart...But D@MN! can't we keep our Spiritual beliefs to ourselves? Do we have to make a big spectacle of it, which may (or may not) perpetuate and spread more of the irrational hate that totally F^CK#D up the previous century? (And the one before that, and the one before that, & the one...) Oh, I know it's too much to ask folks to keep from the path of religious righteousness: but I ain't saying I'm smart like the rest of you: And though I'm mellowing this stuff (the my way or the highway, variety) makes me want to S.M.A.S.H. something: BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM:BAM:BAM:BAM!!!!
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I mean, if I had the money, and wanted to make a big sweeping epic about my belief in Satanism, would people stand for it? If not, then how is this any different? Because it's Mel Gibson? Oh well, as long as it keeps him away from Lethal Weapon 5.
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wouldn't it be funny if kill bill volume 2 and the passion came out in the same day? I think the theatres would blow up!
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I liked the bootleg trailer of a few months ago much better. Too violent, sure, but it was much more powerful than this by-the-book outing. Goofy taglines, subpar music, bleah.
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I cant believe that Mel Gibson didn't take Homer Simpsons advice on what he should of included in this movie. The part where Christ picks up a machine gun and blasts away the Romans would of sold at least a million more tickets!!! And what about the Shifty Eyed dog?!! How can you not include such a sinister character in an epic movie like this?!! He should of at LEAST had him kill Cesar and give the line, "HAIL TO KING....BIATCH!!!"
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I wonder how well a movie about the foundation of Islam would go over right now? Why can't people just keep their damn beliefs to themselves. All organized religions do is manipulate people and breed hatred towards others. The "Christian" religions are just as bad or worse than the others. The Catholic church has REALLY been a shining example of tolerance throughout the years, and still today. Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, yadyadayada... This could all be avoided if people would be content to have their own beliefs and not feel compelled to join some manipulative cult so they can be force-fed an archaic and manipualtive belief system that some guy made up to CONTROL YOU.
Peace
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Dont see this movie, and dont concern yourself with the fact that it was ever made in the first place (which is what i would elect to do if you made your satanist movie..... see? we both have that right.)
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That sums it up perfectly... Now if we could just find some way to force everyone else to feel the same way we do. Hmm...
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Yeah, let's just all keep our beliefs to ourselves, keep our heads down and keep working for the man hoping to barely make the minimum on our credit cards so we can snag the next sweet gizmo from Sharper Image. No thanks. I'm glad there are people out there who care to share artistic expression of their deeply held beliefs. In your intolerant world where this is not allowed and we all march in lock step, what would be the point in living?
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why do Christians get upset? according to the new testament, God SENT JESUS TO EARTH TO DIE for the sins of the people. so whoever killed Jesus followed the will of God and everyone should be thankful that it happened. Christians, who are Jews, should be happy that He was killed. And yes, Christ and all His disciples were Jews. The last supper was a passover dinner. He never said stop being a Jew. This is another thing people seem to overlook.
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Dec 06, 2003 1:14:38 AM CST
MAJOR SPOILER: The main character dies in the end of the film!!!
by robofag
...but some rumors coming from inside sources tells that the hero, after being executed by the bad guys (read: jewish fundamentalists), gets back to life in some mysterious ways involving superpowers and a cameo of... GOD himself(CGI a courtesy of Industrial Lights & Magic)! And that's at this very moment that everything starts to go Neo, and so Jesus H. Christ, the hero just knocks off the huge stone that improsonned him in the grave and he faces off the arch villain, "El Diablo" (the strange guy we see in the trailer who has powder white skin), who`s like "wtf!?". In front of hundreds of people, Jesus H. Christ knocks El Daiblo`s face with so much power that the villain flyes high above into cosmos and crashes unconscious on the Sun`s surface. So back on earth, King Herod gets his arse wiped in a very gore way (with guts spreading all over Golgotha, and the Emperor of Rome finally admits he`s gay. ******Those spoilers were a courtesy of Robofag, who really really likes gangs of apostoles of the same sex spending too much time together preaching love between Mens!******
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This looks spectacular! Even if you don't profess a belief in the subject matter, you cannot deny that the story itself is an exceptionally moving one. Hell, I don't follow bushido and The Last Samurai still kicked ass. What a lot of people are overlooking about the making of this film is that EVERY filmmaker puts his or her beliefs/paradigms/worldviews into their films. Merely because this deals directly with the story that inspired many religions doesn't make it any more preachy than anything else out there. That said, I hope that Gibson's goals were to simply tell a story he was passionate about and not to try to "convert" people. That's not art's purpose. And what about a movie about the foundations of Islam? Make it. I'd come see it.
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I still dont think this movie will be better than "Last Temptation of Christ". At least that movie included some more radical ideas which were more interesting.
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How do you equate "working for the man" with this discussion? Come on, this is much more complicated than simply expressing a belief, this is a Hollywood Star using his money to publicly shove a belief down the movie public's throat, many of whom won't be able to discern true history from that which was represented by idol Mel Gibson. What I'm saying is, there's a world of difference about a specific sort of Catholicism pushed by a media head than just Joe Everyman expressing a belief. You think if Cruise and Travolta made a movie about Scientology that people wouldn't roll their eyes, yell "Agenda!", and accuse them of being a cult? Again I have to ask, how is this any different? (And I really have to point out that I am not against anyone's beliefs -- I just think people should pay attention to why certain beliefs are being presented in certain ways).
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You guys who harp about 'keep it to yourself,' it's nice that you either don't believe in anything, or else don't have the guts to open up and discuss it with anyone (except the likeminded, who won't make you feel threatened.) I stand by the poster who drew analogy with the thought-police dominated society. And to whoever made the comment about 'why are Christians upset,' I ask, about what? Do you mean: about the death of Jesus? No one's saying 'oh, why couldn't we have prevented it?' No one's saying, 'oh, you evil Jews, you killed Jesus!' This is simply the story of what he did to save his people. I agree that neither Jesus nor the Bible say to stop being Jewish--they only say to believe on Jesus. Plenty of Jews correctly recognized that Jesus was their long-expected Messiah. They didn't stop being Jewish, they just accepted God's gift. Many, however, did not really know God at all, anyway (such as those who wanted Jesus dead). Likewise, many who call themselves Christians today do not really know God. And those of you who judge all 'Christians' equally because you read about the Crusades--perhaps YOU need an open mind. One that can accept that the poor examples in a group may not define the proper members of that group. Hmmm?-----Oh, and about the trailer (since this is a movie site)--it seems to suffer from the same mushiness and over-dramatization that all Jesus movies are afflicted with. I mean, really. Just tell the story. It has enough power in itself without the slo-mo and the overly poignant camera work. If some of these shots were inserted in another film (Gladiator, maybe?) we'd be asking, 'what is this, a Jesus movie?!?' I'm still waiting for the day when someone makes a realistic Biblical film without the sappiness. You don't find sappy exposition in the Bible. Just the narrative.
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Wait, you're telling me the hero comes BACK FROM THE DEAD at the end? Yeah, right. That is so lame. American movies are ridiculous.
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Who wants to bet that we'll see an upswing in Christian fanaticism.
Oh yeah, if you want proof of the bogusity of religion, well just say these 5 little words and not be struck down by lightning, etc.: Fuck jesus christ and fuck god. hey I'm still alive (feel free to insert mohamed/allah rice krispies/marshmallows whatever....)
Mel you wanker. C'mon people - anyone whose symbol of worship is a dying guy on a cross are some sick and twisted folks. THERE AINT NO INVISIBLE GHOSTS IN THE SKY DECIDING HUMAN EVENTS. idiots - thanks for iraq assholes. Where's Osama? Further proof christian loons don't quite know shit from shinola. -
I'm very interested in world religions and how they're perceived by members of other religions. All you people pissing on biblically or testamentally-based religions, I got news for you, ALL religions have skeletons in their closets from the past. The word "religion" in that sentence meaning "man-made institution", which is what they all are. Faith, if you so believe, is from God or Allah. Religion is from man.
Interesting topic to throw out: truth be told, if an honest page-to-screen adaptation of the Bible was done, it would be rated X or at least NC-17. It ain't "light, kids fare'", folks! -
Dec 06, 2003 2:00:40 AM CST
Maybe one day we will live in a world that will allow freedom of
by monkeybrains
I know it
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Interesting that this should get posted on Shabbat. Anyway, Gibson would have caught a lot less flack if he had made an important point clear: The fellow popularly known as Jesus Christ (which is Greek, by the way) was a Jew who taught fellow Jews Rabbinic Judaism until he was killed by other Jews. It wasn't until Paul came along WAY after "Christ's" death that the division between Jews who believed Christ was the Messiah and Jews who didn't became an issue. I've always had serious problems with Paul, since he essentially created the great chasm between Judaism and what became known as Christianity. Furthermore, wasn't he supposed to be visited by the ghost of Christ, even though communing with spirits is forbidden in the Torah? Point being, "Christ" (I think his real name was something like "Jehoshua") was a Rabbi to Jews (NOT GENTILES! Jesus was teaching fellow Jews the richness of the Prophetic writings!) who was killed by some of his own people who disagreed with him. "Jesus" was also the best known of many possible "Messiahs" throughout Jewish history, many of whom have done serious harm to and misrepresented the faith.
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I simply do not understand the attacks and knee-jerk fingerpointing surrounding this film. Many in the Jewish community who've seen the film are complaining saying it portrays them in a bad light. What? You mean, like, putting Jesus on the cross? It's in the freakin' story! You don't hear Germans bitchin' about every World War Two film saying it displays them in a bad light. You want to retaliate? Make a Crusades film. Want to piss off different religions? Make a film about the futility and
stubbornness surrounding the battle over the Gaza Strip. Every group of people on the planet has had dark hours in their history. Except New Zealand, they're good people. -
Agreed with the others who have said that the trailer looks overwrought - as was Braveheart. IMO, Mel Gibson is a highly overrated director. He's skilled at creating spectacle, and at manipulating his audience, but that's about it. I hope the film does well, but I'm really worried that it will eclipse far more worthy films, like "The Last Temptation of Christ", by setting itself up as the "definitve" Christ movie. ***** The reason for certain Christians not being able to "keep their spiritual beliefs to themselves" is a problem common to all 3 monotheistic religions: the belief that only Jews/Christians/Muslims will get into heaven. As such, many montheists feel the need to "save" others by converting them. This was not a problem before Christianity and Islam became big - pagan peoples generally had no problem accepting that different countries and tribes could have their own gods, with no nonsense about which god was the "true god".
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Hilarious, Monkeybrains. And shalom, Marco. Although there is no account that I know of where Jesus is visited by a "ghost".
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Great film. Challenging insights, exceptional acting, and marvelous direction. Also important to note that Scorcese did not intend for Last Temptation to be viewed as a "Passion" film per se. This is why he included that long disclaimer on the front of the film. It's a discussion or examination of the concept of spiritual warfare done through what Scorcese believes to be the quintessential example of inner spiritual struggle: Jesus. I did laugh out loud at one moment in the film, though. When Jesus screams at the Pharisees, "Do you think you have a monopoly on God?!? God is not an Israelite!" Well, no God isn't. And neither are they. They're JEWS! The suffix "ite" means dead culture, the Israelites were gone. Still great movie, though.
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1)John Travolta made a movie about Scientology; it was called "Battlefield Earth" and showed the difference between a loon like Travolta and an artist like Gibson. See, every artist expresses his or her beliefs in every piece he or she does. When it comes to making a piece of cinema, the difference isn't what religion the artist identifies with, but how it is displayed. From the looks of it, Gibson is showing the qualities of Christ he looks up to, while Travolta seemed to go off on a thousand inexplicable tangents. The difference, then, is the same difference that divides all art: Inspired and ill-advised.
2)"Specific form of Catholicism"? Well, assuming you meant to say "Christianity," (Catholicism is a specific branch of Christianity- not to say you don't realize, just to clarify), the story of the Passion is the most basic belief of all forms of Christianity. This would, I think, make it applicable to all Christians (not to mention open-minded folk or anyone looking for a good film with a good story- the Greatest Story Ever Told, some would say).
3)I need to disagree with your comments on "forcing" the film down people's "throats." There is no force. There's only choice. Always. -
I wish I could shake your hand.
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"And to whoever made the comment about 'why are Christians upset,' I ask, about what? Do you mean: about the death of Jesus? No one's saying 'oh, why couldn't we have prevented it?' No one's saying, 'oh, you evil Jews, you killed Jesus!'"
Actually, people have been saying that sort of thing for something like 1,800 years now. Terms like "Christ-killer" have fallen out of favor for a good, what, generation maybe? And that's not counting the deep South, where I expect it's got about as much life felt in it as the Klan.
"Plenty of Jews correctly recognized that Jesus was their long-expected Messiah."
Actually, the most popular interpretation of Messianic prophesy states that said figure would rebuild The Temple and align all the peoples of the world with the Jewish faith. Neither of these things have taken place, and therefore, "Christ" didn't fulfill the prophesy. In fact, Christ was a key figure in fractionalizing the faith, turning Judaism into a billion different belief systems.
Since this is a movie site, I'd like to mention my favorite Jesus movie was the one CBS did a few years back. You know, the comedy with Debra Messing, Gary Oldman, and the evil sergeant from the Police Academy movies. Boy, I laughed my ass off at that one... -
Good shabbos, Dug. I meant Paul was (if I recall correctly) visited by Jesus' ghost. My wording was confusing, I admit.
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Look at the last shot of Jesus in that trailer!
It's the spitting image of Brian Cohen! -
I'd have to agree with you on that one, Marco. It sucked. And that guy from Suicide Kings played Jesus, too. Although, I must admit that I appreciated that this version of Jesus had slightly darker skin, smiled and laughed with his friends and had a good time instead of the usual morose and uber-serious, Anglo-Saxon Jesus we normally get.
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in the made-for-tv mini-series was Jeremy Sisto.
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An earlier poster summed it up perfectly in his distinction between religion and faith, but only if you're coming from a Protestant background. Unfortunately, many branches of Christianity and of other monotheistic religions equate doctrine with faith, which is where we get the "God's way (as defined by me) or eternal damnation" brainwash. Sadly, there isn't much you can do when you're discussing religion with a zealot, other than politely requesting that they keep their proclamations of damnation on a reasonably personal, non-violent level. Without daming Mr. Gibson's film before he's seen it, it sounds like his presentation of the story includes elements that cast theologically questionable aspersions onto the Jews in general, rather than taking mob mentality, cultural conditions, and individual choices into account. For me, the amazing thing about literalism is that it can be so grounded in a particular interpretation that it forgets that its dealing with an interpretation. In other words, people are taught to believe that a certain condition exists, based on what they're told is from a particular source, and what they're told outweighs any critical analysis of that source, no matter how illogical their belief becomes. In many cases, the Bible says nothing like what people have come to assume it does. Of course, it's always been easier to tell people what to believe than to empower them to explore the sources themselves. (Like how the Catholic church kept ANY understanding of the Bible to the educated only for over a thousand years. If all Christians had had access to the Bible and read it, for example, it is far less likely that the entire corrupt culture of indulgences would have arisen.) Sadly, this type of approach to religion, faith, and control must set up critical thought as an enemy in order to maintain its dominance over its adherents. Am I bashing religion or faith? No. However, I am expressing misgivings about perpetuating an approach to religion that has allowed two-thousand years of deception, prosecution, and murder in the name of a man who preached love, tolerance, and grace. I will do my best to approach Mr. Gibson's film with an open mind, but I am concerned about whether he will focus on blame or on grace to support his statement of faith. I hope it's not the former.
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Dont know how I feel about this...it looks AWESOME (aesthetically) but there isnt much in here to really grip me to wanting to go see it beyond pretty pictures. I dont know, it just didnt impact me like I expected, and it felt like they were holding back immensly.
www.unseenfilms.com -
Dec 06, 2003 2:54:37 AM CST
He doesn't die in the end, he rises back up after 3 days... like
by theginger twit
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Lets band all violent games and sexual anything on TV. I mean, really, how dare those biggots shove their corruption down our throats, forcing us to press the remote control to turn the channel or not spend money on something that would influence our kids.*** While we're at it, why can't our scientists hurry up on developing that all purpose drug, Librium.
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Dec 06, 2003 3:05:48 AM CST
"And that's not counting the deep South, where I expect it's got
by thefoywonder
Obviously someone hasn't been to the deep South. Yeah, we're all still a bunch of backwoods crackers down here. Fucking idiot posters and functionally retarded generalizations!
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Yes indeed, can't quite grasp what I'm reading. The idea that Mel Gibson is shoving his beliefs down our collective throats is ludicrous. Everything we do is based on our beliefs in them. Steven Spielberg made Schindler's List because he believed in the story and believed that the Holocaust happened and was real. There are plenty of Holocaust doubters out there so in like fashion Schindler's List would be cramming Spielberg's beliefs down their throats. The level of intolerance I read in this talkback is astounding. Beliefs make the world what they are, they make us individuals, they make us interesting. What is also interesting is that person who chimed in spouting off there is no God, there is no Jesus blah blah blah. I would think that despite our seperate beliefs we could be respectful of eachother and that would respect would come from our words as well as our mouths. I am a follower of the life of Christ but I don't discount other cultures and beliefs in God. Who am I to judge? The beauty of the US is our freedom to express our opinions and beliefs and tune out or turn the channel when we aren't interested. That said, The Passion looks fantastic, it's great to see someone's er, passion on screen, you know that everything in them is there for the audience to take in and appreciate.......................................................................................................................................J.M. Prater
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First I want everyone here who criticizes the Christian`s point of view of Jesus`s life, death and resurrection to openly say if they are of the traditional Jewish religion or not! My point is that its so easy to question or even challenge other people`s religion when your not of the same faith... for you see many people (not everyone though) who are coming down on Christianity are hiding their own strong jewish faith behind a veil of rationalistic skeptisism, so please people at least BE HONEST AND REVEAL YOUR TRUE FAITH! And what`s mine? Mine is of a very fragile christian faith, frequently tendig towards good old cartesian philosophy that says that everything in the universe, after all, is up to us... to the way we make things up (that being said in the simplest layman`s terms), and I`m refering here to the concept of deduction and the well-known "Cogito Ergo Sum" assertion. But what always stroke me inside with christian faith is those ideas of sharing, forgiveness, and learning to love the people you hate, wich leads us to the modern, cosmopolitan, values of tolerance and free cooperation beyond differences. Being a true christian, to what I have learned trough all the years I minded to read the Bible and to meditate on what I'm reading instead making cheap and gross judgments, is not to fight the devil and its followers and curse the unfaithful and the sinners, but to make peace with your biggest foes (and that would mean a christian HAS to pay a beer to every damn satanist on earth!;), and that, in a peaceful way (so I guess that would rule President Bush out of being a christian...).
What MATTERS is not what differenciates us but what unites us in a universal way, and the day everyone on earth will understand that, logically there will be no more war and tyranny (now I expect some right-wing tight ass talkbackers deem me of being a tree-hugging hippie for writing that... alright then I'M A TREE-HUGGIN LEFT-WING PRO-CHOICE LIBERAL HIPPIE, and I'm LOVING IT!). So now I wanna see every israeli-zionist stop whining about their god-given superiority towards all "Gentiles" of this world and finally give a big warm hug to every palestinian on earth before putting any blame on the Catholic church or christian faith in general for the problems of the world! HEAR ME? I. DARE. YOU. ALL! -
... I hope the first Palestinian you hug is strapped down with explosives.
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That was beautiful.
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All right, so the challenge is out from another poster for people to reveal the religious background that's behind whatever statements they're making. I'll take your bait! Me? Former Christian who got turned off by too many primitivist literalist evangelicals who took righteousness to be faith and damnation to be grace. I got to the point where I had no desire to be associated with what people were calling Christianity. I guess it was too many people trying to cram doctrines of exclusion, control, and blind idiocy down my throat. So, for no, I would rather disregard the religion crap and concentrate on living a life of tolerance, understanding, compassion, and wishy-washy universalism. From my perspective, people can believe whatever they want to, but when they start abusing other people because of their own beliefs, we have a problem. Now, that's an issue that faces almost every religion!
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for illustrating why we've had 65 years and counting of violence and racism in Israel/Palestine/Judea/Canaan/whatthefuckeverthatdesolatesandstripiscalledthisweek. To suggest that Jews shouldn't try to make peace with Palestinians because some Palestinians have been suicide bombers is ludicrous. Just as ludicrous as suggesting that the Palestinians shouldn't try to come to terms with the Jews because of the Israeli army's unfortunate habit of firing rockets at unarmed Arab civilians.
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Word!
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Okay, I'll lay my faith on the table too. Currently unaffiliated agnostic - I've flirted with a bunch of religions. Gave up on Atheism after reading too much C.S. Lewis. Gave up on Christianity after realizing that I really like the devil better than God.
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Here we have two world religions - Western and middle eastern... both of which are set in the middle east as their origins - yet the Westerners will smear the middle eastern people for their beliefs and bomb the fuck out of them - then release a huge budget film explaining in glorius true detail how white people lived in the middle east 2000 years ago. The asians must be laughing their arse off. Seriously, Imagine the arabs preaching to the world about Jesus Mohumad Christ laden being born in the middle of america, and then telling everyone not to listen to what America has to say about that
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Dec 06, 2003 4:34:05 AM CST
"Imagine the arabs preaching to the world about Jesus Mohumad Ch
by fontinau
Heh, the Mormons are already half way there.
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Yaw yaw yaw!!!!!! Yaw yaw yaw!!!!!!
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Yaw yaw yaw!!!!!! Yaw yaw yaw!!!!!!
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Sad. really sad.
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Dec 06, 2003 5:01:24 AM CST
The earth is 6000 years old. Creation is real. Worship Christ an
by theginger twit
... Funny because there are lots of books out there. And so many more say things like the Earth is Anciently old, and that life developes in many different forms through chemical compositions. Now that's a miracle worth studying. And who cares if the jews strung up some dude 2000 years ago. Read the news, they've done much more between then and now. Anti-Semetic I hear you scream? nahh, i hate all cunts.
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baku baku nain ka indiku ba amu?
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Thanks for the link. I glad mr. weinstein and miramax didn't buy the www.thepassionofthechrist.com domain.
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Dec 06, 2003 5:50:50 AM CST
Any Braveheart like battle scenes between Jesus and the English
by jon e cin
Movie looks great.....
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Speaking as a Southerner (Texas, specifically), I am aware of five "Souths". Southwesterns and Southeasterns are on the fringes of the South, but if you've ever been to Florida or Arizona, there's still very much a Southern element within these regions. Then you've got the Old South, which is like the Kentucky-fried equivalent of New England. The New South is pretty much just the North with better manners and a twang. Finally, the Deep South is the mentally defective cousin the rest of us keep chained in the basement drapped in a Confederate flag and sodomizing a rotting racoon carcass. If you take pride in being from the deep South (Deliverance), as opposed to nearest relative the Old South (Steel Magnolias), you probably deserve to be offended.
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Funny, I don't recall making that suggestion. I was merely drawing attention to Robo's na
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Someone has to get Peter Jackson signed up for "The Bible" the quadrilogy. Because, Quadrilogy is a word now.
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Dec 06, 2003 6:37:45 AM CST
"If you take pride in being from the deep South (Deliverance), a
by thefoywonder
Marxo Xavier, do the world a favor and eat a bullet. At the very least, put a bullet through your testicles to ensure you'll never reproduce and pass your ignorance on to a whole new generation. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about and have nothing worth contributing to this world so please go away.
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My mistake. Sorry. (Although I don't think Robo was being na
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Yep...simply wow...no more..no less!
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"First I want everyone here who criticizes the Christian`s point of view of Jesus`s life, death and resurrection to openly say if they are of the traditional Jewish religion or not!"
There's this great joke I can't remember about a Spanish Inquistor who tricks a Jew into revealing himself by offering him something to nosh. I don't really see the relevancy of a person's religious affiliation here, as it seems to be a Pro/Con Christianity debate only. I find it especially funny that the challenge was Jew specific, seeing as how there are only a few million left in existence around the world. If 1 in ten people are gay, verses 1 in 600 being Jewish, you've got better odds of getting virtually cornholed in here than literarily circumcised. However, anything I can do to unmask the international Jewish secret government's diabolical plans for you, the better. I'm an unconverted practitioner of Reform Judaism by way of agnosticism by way of unbaptized and highly skeptical Southern Baptist. In other words, I haven't been deputized to represent Judaism, and I have also seen the world from the Christian side of the fence (before I jumped it like a Berliner in 1984). I've watched a number of people make fun of guys like me on this very thread, talking about our imaginary friend tossing lightning bolts at us from the sky. It doesn't bother me a bit however, thanks to my FAITH in the existence of a higher power that makes internal sense *cough*cough*. My agnostic leanings made a segue into the abstract concepts of Kabbalistic thought a natural progression in my spiritual life. As Kabbalah led me to the Tanakh, I discovered the beauty inherent in the books' teachings that inspired the doctrines of Christianity. All those bits about "sharing, forgiveness, and learning to love the people you hate" were already present before "Jesus'" arrival, without any of that "eternal damnation" muckitymuck that taints the message. How forgiving can a god be who would create a Hell? For the record, Jews don't have a Hell, which I gotta tell you is a great relief. We're neurotic enough without one. Anyway, the basic design for the legal and social systems that define modern civilization were described in the Torah, but Christian evangelism did popularize this very effective method of operation. I think this was part of God's purpose in creating Christianity, but as for this Messiah business, I just figure it helps keep the kids in line to avoid coal in their stockings. Being an idealistic individual already inclined to do good without the threat of condemnation, I embraced the principles of personal responsibility and sympathy for your fellow man instilled by the Torah. Most people make broad assumptions about the "Old Testiment" involving a perpetually angry god hatefully attacking his people, until Buddy Christ showed up to smooth things over. The informed reader will find a God constantly trying to set a world populated by insufferable assholes to right by having them treat each other decently, and their constantly fucking up and hurting themselves. For instance, one particularly charismatic rabbi came along a few thousand years ago, and folks deified him. It's kooky. Then there's this business about the devil, which is quite nutty. Seems folks took reference to Ha-Satan (Hebrew for "The Adversary") from the abysmal book of Job (a non-prophetic but supposedly spiritual writing adopted by rabbis and tossed toward the very back of the Tanakh like the biblical equivalent of "The Ewok Adventure") and mixed this two-bit character in a pseudo-morality play with the evil Ahriman from the Babylonian originated Zorastrianism. This boogieman of myth then became a tool for warring Christian sects to toss at one another, before applying it to Jews and Muslims. Meanwhile, the message that we all miss out on is that we're all equal parts good and bad responsible for our actions and circumstances, so we should try to be good so that we can build a better world for everyone to live in. Everyone including Hindus, Wiccans, and people of any faith so long as those claiming to be of the Judeo-Christian faith don't adopt ways counter to our own from them. Of course, this was also at a time when human sacrifices and plagues were more of an issue. Point being, so long as a Jew doesn't sacrifice their middle child to Moloch, smile on your brother. So, even though I'm likely the only semi-Jewish person in the room, I'd like to defend myself and all the atheist pagan Satanic orgy enthusiasts who might see the chinks in Christianity's armor from our particular vantage points. Oh, and all the Ultra-Orthodox intolerant Zionist nutjobs should get blown up while hugging virgin-envisioning Palestinian suicide bombers while in the immediate vicinity of the child-molesting dogma-spouting Catholic inquisitors until they're all wiped out, leaving the rest of us to reason together. -
...it's a genuine display of Southern kindness that your kin installed an internet connection into your basement.
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How funny is it that we are told to "keep our religious beliefs to ourselves", but when you tell someone to keep their sexual preferences to themselves,you're considered a prude, or you're not considered politically correct? Funny how society works, huh kids?
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Dec 06, 2003 8:31:21 AM CST
Ignorance is bliss and Marco Xavier is one of the happiest peopl
by thefoywonder
You know nothing of the part of the country I live in but love to hurl insults to anyone who lives there because, well, you're just an ignorant fuck which is most disappointing since you've proven you be really articulate one second and a functioning retard the next. However, I made a mistake in daring to take the bait. I should have just not responded at all and given you the attention you so desperately crave. Guys like you hide behind their user names and hurl insults that if ever spoken to the recipient face to face would result in you recieving a royal ass kicking. You're a coward. The internet gives courage to cowards. I know you'll probably just respond to this with yet another allegedly witty retort. You can't help yourself. You're a jackass who hides behind the monitor and feels he has to get the last word in so that in your mind it somehow validates you. No shortage of people like that on the net. Oh well. Maybe one day you'll actually grow up and learn a thing or two. I've made the mistake of allowing a thinks he knows it all dipshit like you to get under my skin and waste my time. I'm done with you.
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In a weird way, you've validated my agnosticism (which for me expresses itself as a reasonable belief that anything can happen and you ought to be good in the long run) with your reasonable admission of faith. You should turn on your spell-checker in your browser, though, cause you spelled "Testament" "Testiment".
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Dec 06, 2003 8:48:36 AM CST
Great trailer, although I prefer the first one that came out
by cornolio55
I don't know why Mel had to edit the film to make it tamer. Release it the way you see fit Mel!
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Dec 06, 2003 8:48:49 AM CST
Great trailer, although I prefer the first one that came out
by cornolio55
I don't know why Mel had to edit the film to make it tamer. Release it the way you see fit Mel!
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my most anticipated movie next year.
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Some of you look at this film, and are angered by the fact that Gibson is publically expressing his religious views. Now some of these views I totally disagree with, being a mainline Catholic myself. But you know what? I am not going to fear and hate this movie for expressing his views, orthodox or unorthodox. That, to me, is a cowardly way to face other people's ideas. I will respond to it, in my work and my analysis of his work, as I see fit, and if enough other people do it, any damage done will be minimalized, and perhaps what rings true in the film will have a chance to shine beyond the errors and hatefulness, where they exist. Express your opinions, people, don't try to prevent others from exercizing their rights.
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Dec 06, 2003 9:57:37 AM CST
I salute the anti-Gibson venom and the anti-historical-Catholic
by fluffyunbound
Of course, it is somewhat unfortunate that some people are doing it in the name of the anti-value "tolerance", but their own words efficaciously prove that they don't really believe in that, so I guess it's OK. Take offense! Feel rage! Bear vicarious grudges! Let your blood boil over with indignation! You're almost human beings again. Closer, closer, closer.... // Nathan was not wise, he was a fool. To the extent that we have STOPPED hating each other for our differing beliefs, to that very extent has our culture degenerated and has our humanity clotted, dried, and blown away. Ask yourself this: if tolerance is such a value, why does our enterainment always tell you that anger and violence is the appropriate answer in disputes? Could it be that it is the arid, lisping virtues we attempt to impart to schoolchildren which are wrong here, and it is the atavistic response we SEEK OUT and PAY ADMISSION FOR week after week that is right? // Battle away, chickyboos. Gibson has done you a service. He has elevated you by making you hate his film and his religion. For those few moments of outrage, you weren't just pasty bourgeois fucks worrying about how to ingratiate yourselves to your superiors like some Diderot character, wiping your KFC stained hands on your made in China shirts while watching Buffy and the pregnant chicks on the Weather Channel. Congratulations.
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Yes, get rid of organized religion, and all will be well, human beings will stop being so irrational, right? Actually, no. You see, if you take any kind of well informed view on this, you'll come to the conclusion that human beings are fallible and limited creatures. There is no perfection this side of the grave for human beings. We are all "only human". Stalin was an atheist. He killed millions. Caesar was a believer in the Roman Pantheon. he killed millions. Hitler was a Former Catholic who turned, by his own admission, into something of a pagan. The Crusaders were Christians, The Suicide bombers and Al Quaeda are Muslims, the Japanese of WW2 were Buddhist and Shinto, the Leaders of China, who caused millions of their own people to starve, were atheists. The British who installed apartheid were C of E. The French who participated in the Reign of Terror, who tried to keep dominion over other souls in Algeria and Vietnam were largely secular. Point is, there is no large organized group of people, religious or irreligious that don't have blood on their hands. What's more, nobody's become perfect because of the presence or the absence of religion, organized or not, in their lives. That said, the positive effects of organized religion should not be underestimated. I don't think there is anything wrong with being regularly reminded that you are only human, and need to be doing better things, doing good for people. Without Catholicism, there is no Natural Theology, no preservation of the Roman and Greek classics during the Dark ages. Without those, the humanism many of you value would never exist. Without Protestants, America, as we know it would never exist, and the positive values of individual choice and personal responsibility would be more absent from the world. I could go on, citing situations where the institutionalized, collective seeking of wisdom, seeking of virtue and other aspects of organized religion have been the saving grace of society, And the origin of great secular enterprises. You cannot entirely divorce what is good and right in our society from the practice of organized religion.
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That might have been a bit harsh. Let me try again. Before I do, what I meant by a specific form of Catholocism (sp?) is that Gibson believes in pre-Vatican II, which is a stricter form. And as I write this, I'm trying to figure it out in my head as much as explain what I feel, so give me a little bit of rope before ripping me a new one, yeah? Christianity, while the most popular belief, is just that, a belief. (Here come the Jews and the Muslims to smite me for saying that) This is a movie that doesn't necessarily attempt to accurately potray historical events, it's an individual's belief presented and back with his own money -- which, yes, is totally his right. The problem, I think, that comes up is that the person who makes it is indivisible from his movie career. It becomes a case of using celebrity to present the "truth," if you will. And to be honest, it's not even that Gibson has done this -- if he can afford it, cool. It's that the Vatican wants this shown. It's that if anyone were to make a movie about Scientology, Wicca, Buddhism, with the same sort of authoratative, bombastic presentation, people would be shouting it down right and left. (No, I'm sorry, Battlefield Earth was not a Scientology, despite written by Hubbard in book form -- it was just a really, really shitty movie) It's a circular argument, and I respect other people's opinions on the matter.
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Why the fuck is it called The Passion of The Christ,they make it sound like Christ is like The Thing.
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Somebody had to say it.
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Hair of Lambs Wool? I don't see either, so I won't be seeing this film. Maybe one day Hollywood will get past the 16th Century depiction of Jesus, but I'm not crossing my fingers.
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...and the most interesting thing on this talkback is the username "Assflap"... made me laugh for a few minutes... This film (along with its subject matter) is tired.
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If anyone out in movie land is so weakminded as to have a Mel GIbson movie change their religious convictions, then they where obviosly never anyone who put much individual thought into what they believe in the first place. I'm just curious how historically inaccurate it's going to be. . . i,e, portraying Mary M. as a prostitue? claiming Dec. 25th is actually the day he was born?
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Is the entire cast (at lesats the leads?) made up of European actors? If Mell wanted it to be truly biblically correct shouldn't he have gotten actors other than a bunch of white people?
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First of all, I wish Mel hadn't changed the title..."The Passion" was nice and simple, and adding "The Christ" simply made it redundant. "The Passion" as a historical/theological event can only refer to the torture and death of Jesus. Even so, "The Christ" is accurate terminology, since "Christ" is a title (like "the King" or "the President"), and not Jesus' last name. It's the Greek translation of the Hebrew "Messiah" meaning anointed one. Just FYI. I hope this movie comes together, but I also hope that Mel has the good sense to show Jesus' death as a religious/political conspiracy on the part of a few Roman and Jewish leaders, and not as an act of deicide by the Jewish people as a whole. Many, if not all of Jesus' earliest followers were Jewish, and that even included some Pharisees, who often get blamed for his death.
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Gibson had no choice but to change the name, as another film had the rights to it. As for the strange use of the definite article, It's not so strange when you consider that Christ is a title. Essentially, it is Greek for Annointed. So one title would be the Passion of Annointed, the other would be the passion of the annointed. Passion of Christ is only good as long as it's confused by people as being a last name.
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I still don't understand your position. Everything we do, we do because we believe it to be true or "our truth." Van Gogh painted his view of truth or his representation of truth. I just don't understand why presenting ones idea of truth is a bad thing? If that is the case then we should not read or write books or make and view television or movies. Even fiction is an idea of truth, an idea or truth of what is funny, what is dramatic what is cool. Why is this such a sore subject with you? I like your challenges and the chance to dialogue with you, adversity can breed understanding. my email is jaimeprater2000@yahoo.com or my aim handle is JPraterpomona. I look forward to continuing this discussion.
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Dec 06, 2003 12:51:19 PM CST
Again with the white christ....is the actor who plays him even j
by iamarayya
beating a dead horse is aways fun...but why not cast arab looking people to play characters in a middle eastern story? AND I beat if someone made a pro-islamic movie on the birth of islam these same Christians would be pissed. Fanatics suck donkey balls
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Dec 06, 2003 1:05:31 PM CST
The first trailer was much more emotionally powerful. This one
by johnnytremaine
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Dunno. Maybe a crisis of faith, maybe because I'm not sure of my own beliefs? Maybe sick of religion in general, not just Christianity, but any, due to the actions of faith-based groups (be they Muslim or Presidential)? I guess I'm trying to make sure that I'm not just having a knee-jerk reaction -- but I really do think there is something negative about this movie -- and it's not the historical inaccuracy of it, which I doubt anyone could approach, given the thousands of years of mistranslation and personal beliefs that tend to get in the way. How about if I say it this way -- it's not the movie perhaps as much as it is the people who will go see it and have a reaction to it as the truth, and base future actions on that "truth"? Maybe I'm reaching. Somebody throw me a buoy.
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Thin Man -- thanks, because I didn't notice you at first, but your all caps makes your post worth reading. Good on ya, mate!
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Now I'm just being full of myself. Has anyone heard of a movie called "Jesus Christ, Vampire Killer"? A friend gave it to me on DVD last night. And it's a MUSICAL, no less. Hysterical.
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Mel Gibson's next movie should be a Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. biopic. He should cast Jason Alexander in the lead (and maybe Ben Affleck in a cameo as Maclom X). And hey, Susan Sarandon could be Coretta Scott King! :-) By know means should Mr. Gibson cast his actors according to historical accuracy....
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my position: you need to believe some bizarre lie to live rather than having the courage to face the world without a fantasy protector.
I fear no god. I fear no retribution. I am fearless.
believers are very fearful. cowardly sucking up to some human-created mythology to "save" themselves from invisible ghosts in the sky.
I am sick of christian/muslim/jewish loons attempted to force their laws down my throat. that's the problem - when you go from professing a faith to creating laws to force the rest of us to live/believe like you.
No one is forcing me to see this film, though I believe I am free to criticize the idea's behind the flick just as we all disagree on SW or LOTR or whatever. Funny how believers are so thin-skinned. Guess they don't like to be challenged on their ideas cuz maybe then they would have to accept it's all bs. IMO.
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of the life of Jesus Christ, see "the Gospel of John". A nice little movie in limited release just this last fall.
Myself, I'm looking forward to Gibson's movie. -
Firstly I'd like to say that I am a former Catholic so I fully understand the material in this film and it's implications toward the Judao-Christian communities.
I'd also like to say to everyone posting, look at yourselves and what you are doing here, you're arguing about something the is merely a declaration of faith. Mel is simply saying "this story is important to me and I want to share it with those who want to see it." Not "GO SEE THIS OR YOU'RE GOING TO HELL HELL HELL!!!" Anyone who is willing to take a stand for their beliefs should be commended. Because they are saying to the world "I have such strong feelings about this that I want everyone to know." And that's great. But all the arguing doesn't serve any purpose. The agnostics/atheists aren't going to change the Christians, the Christians aren't going to stop resenting the Jews, and Jews aren't going to stop selling diamonds, and the Islamics aren't going to stop being complete fuckwits (that is only directed to crazy islamics that blow shit up, not the nice fun loving ones y'all can keep on a rockin').
Now as I stated I'm a former Catholic, currently I'm a Atheist. I lost my faith in God when I was in Catholic school and was driven to a nervous breakdown by a teacher. After that I was left with many questions about faith and belief structures. And what I came to understand over time, was that members of any particular religion take doctrine too literally. The existance of Jesus can not be proved, so believing he ever existed is a leap of faith. To completely understand the purpose of the Bible you have to transcend your need to believe that it's historical fact. Think of it as a fable, a parable to help teach us a good way to live.
In a world such as ours there shouldn't be such an emphasis on God or religion, these are just a means to an end, stories written two millenia ago as a way of teaching values to the masses. Stories that over time have been bastardized and rewritten to serve private agendas of those in power and to control those who are willing to believe in something greater then themselves. Much of their teachings have been lost, teachings about tolerance and love. Universal truths that if man can't grow to live in peace with his neighbor, in the end we'll destroy ourselves.
So everyone, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Satanists, Buddhists, Hippies, Yuppies, and Republicans, should all take a step back and realize that by arguing about who's God is the right one and who's going to hell on a hand cart, all you're doing is perpetuating the hatred and intolerance that is plaguing the world. We should all put aside our beliefs and disbelief, our discontent with one another, our ignorance and closed mindedness.
Open your eyes, your hearts, and your minds. Make the world a better place, somewhere that tolerance and love are valued more then a car or a house. Where speaking your mind about your beliefs doesn't get you attacked by an army of ignorant people. A place that petty squabbles over a piece of rocky terrain that may or may not be holy. A world that the idea of killing another for your faith is unimaginable.
I know I'm talking about a utopia, but have faith in the strength of people, you might just be surprised what you discover.
-HollywoodBob -
Why the title change? I thought it was called "Passion." The new title sounds too much like "Attack of the Clones."
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sent me his diatribe then prevented me from replying by banning mt address from his account. TYPICAL believer crap.
my response though was this....
Subject: Re: Its "christophobia".
awww poor little victim. poor baby.
Funny how criticizing your belief means something is wrong with me.
You should ponder that.
Tell me again about the drug warriors and anti-abortionists who don't want to create laws that force their views down our throats? yeah right.
Thanks for being a pawn in human misery. You're quite a fellow.
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You call everybody "weak minded", but you're as angry as a fucking priest who hasn't fucked a bitch or a boy in years. It's fine with me if you want to claim that your an Atheist but it's not necessary to be disrepectful to others who share some faith. Shit...I know some people who are Atheists but they are cool with people who go to church. The words God, Jesus Christ, Allah, Moses, Jehova, etc, mean a lot to most of us. Don't bother us and we won't bother you. Respect you fool!
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I don't go to church very often. I was raised Catholic but I am against on some of their preachings. I just happen to believe in God.
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Dec 06, 2003 3:14:54 PM CST
hahah Cucaracha I never said weak minded - you are typical belie
by flipster
you believe a lie so make up more lies to "prove" your point.
All you are doing is proving me correct.
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Dec 06, 2003 3:19:40 PM CST
It's funny how your demands for respect mean I must behave as if
by flipster
I wrefuse to behave as a believer. I refuse to appease your ignorance. I HAVE to say these things as a way of showing their is no truth to religion. Respect that god squad boy.
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www.jesusneverexisted.com
WORD UP. And if I do not have to pay for it, I will see this flick. Quite curious about it. -
Dec 06, 2003 3:23:30 PM CST
Even if you didn't say " weak minded " you still meant to say it
by super cucaracha
You're just sugar coating it.
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Dec 06, 2003 3:32:28 PM CST
Flipster needs some good Tequila shots off some girls wonderful
by tequilaworm
Relax my friend, you're gonna have a heart attack...CHEERS Amigos!
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Dec 06, 2003 3:33:28 PM CST
*sigh* since you forced me out again... no - brainwashed is more
by flipster
if you do not teach a human child to believe, then they do not believe when they are older. Studies have been done to prove this point.
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I yield to the magical healing power of all things tequila.
Peace out. -
What I believe is that people will flock to this film not because the interpretation is accepted as truth but because the film and it's qualities is in some ways a watering hole for many, there's something about the life of Christ that interests people, atheists, muslims, everyone. Be it a system of beliefs for some or a big lie for others this film deals with the most talked about figure in the history of the world. This figure and the legacy he has left has caused some to take his name and cause great harm and others still to take his name and impact the world in some of the greatest ways possible. I myself consider myself a follower of the life and works of Christ, is teachings, etc... I believe for myself that his words were truth. At that same time I do not neccessarily believe that homosexuality is wrong, I don't discount other religions and beliefs. I do not walk with my eyes closed. What infuriates me is that there are people who believe that anyone associated with Christianity [or any other religion] is an idiot for doing so. If Jesus never lived and Christianity is a lie, it's the best lie I have ever believed in. I continually ask questions and provoke the status quo with the realm of patented Christianity. I believe that Christianity today and throughout history has been portrayed terribly and only because we are human. It works if you work with it but not all of us are so inclined and truthfully it's hard to understand a system of beliefs that you don't believe in. If I were an "unbeliever" and saw what Christianity had to offer I would vomit and would want no part in it. Christianity today especially as represented in American culture is a cancer, a cancer that grows and deforms and breeds and spreads doubt and incestousness and hate wherever it flows. Point in case is Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the TBN network, if I never saw those representations again it would be too soon. But again the beauty of this country is that these people can spout off their ideals for a vacuum society and get away with it. I must fight for their freedom to do so as much as I fight for my own. ...............................................................................................................................................There is a lesson to be learned and I believe it is subtracting the truth from the lies especially with The Passion of the Christ. The story is basically of Jesus' death and resurrection. Much like Peter Jackson and LOTR the underlying story is Frodo's journey to Mordor to dispose of the ring, he must tell that story, that is the focal point. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't think religion or a system of beliefs can be thrown out because we don't like the people representing it. What makes my own faith stronger is that I question it and desire to understand more and more. I will never cease to question the faith in which I believe or to discuss the idea of God, this world, this life and what it all means. Why I appreciate Mel Gibson is because he takes a risk, he puts his faith on the line and gives us his perspective for us to either cheer or revile. I can only respect that and strive to have that kind of courage....................................................................................................................................................................................J.M. Prater
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Actually, there are people trying to shout this movie down, attacking it without having seen it. And if someone were to make a similar movie about any other religion or spiritual belief then it would be applauded by the opinion elites in the media, and academia. Critics would praise it. Hollywood would embrace it. It would receive plenty of politically correct, multicultural driven praise for its contribution to understanding diversity.
Seeing as how most critics are left of center, I think many of them will be unable to give this movie a fair shake. I think they'll make their minds up before hand. I think they will want to dislike it because of their aversion to Christian beliefs. -
Dec 06, 2003 4:33:49 PM CST
Let's hope that after this Mel doesn't start the production of M
by judge doom
It would be like ted Turner and his Secession War movies. And this movie looks lame, however they got a great vilan!
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The Life of Brian!!!!! I love the way it just rips the piss out of religion!!!
"I am not the messiah, will you please listen I am not the Messiah...HONESTLY!!!"
"Only the true Messiah denies his divinity!"
"Well what sort of chance does that give me? Alright I AM the Messiah!!!!" -
shut up. God is real, dude.
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What's with some of the athiests that have a superiority complex? Some of you sound like Hitler, Stalin and Mao.
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Hey, these have just been my opinions I've been posting, and I've tried to be as level as possible. Never swore, never said anybody else's opinions were invalid, never climbed on my high horse, and even admitted that I wasn't really sure what I thought, but I'd give it a shot. For the people that have similarly expressed their opinions, cool (including those that have e-mailed me). For those that have rapidly started spraying the saliva, please calm down just a tad. This is just discussion. The loudest person doesn't win.
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I live two blocks from a church where they handle snakes....I just hope they don't take them to movies!
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lame, boring, whatever. looks like wankery. this from mad max? bummer. mel gibson's a fucking closet case.
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I'm so glad that Gibson went the "non-Hollywood" route with this picture. Going to the website, its not flashy (well except the Flash animation at the beginning,hehe) and its really anti-big movie. But about the trailer, its looks fantastic. I almost wanted to turn away when they were nailing Him to the cross. And its weird, I want to see this movie, but not as a "cool, lets go get popcorn and see this!" movie. I think I'll leave the theatre kind of sobered, instead of the usual elation I walk outwith. I don't think anyone should walk into the theater like this. This is serious subject matter, everyone,even if you don't believe in this.
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In his famous book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis makes this statement, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg--or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.(emphasis: web author)"
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What's up with the music here? Very distracting.
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Much as I admire C. S. Lewis as a writer and as a philosopher, his reasoning in the passage you cited is flawed. We honestly have no idea what Jesus said. We just know what his apostles CLAIM he said, and their claims often differ. The only gospel to put an extreme emphasis on Jesus being the son of god is John's. Matthew, for instance, puts far more emphasis on Jesus being the "king of the Jews." And then there are the until recently lost gospels of Thomas and Philip - Thomas portrays Jesus as a humanist, more concerned with educating and raising up the poor masses than forgiving them for their sins. Philip portrays Jesus as even more human - according to his gospel Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, and Jesus never physically rose from the grave. And let us not forget Islam, where Jesus is seen as god's prophet (second to Mohammed), and forgives people their sins IN THE NAME of god.
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Yeah! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yeah! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dec 06, 2003 11:30:52 PM CST
Great trailer! But it does look like Mel is really softeningi th
by skiddity
Most moviegoers don't give a rat's ass about this anti-semitism BS and those ass-faces in ADL, so JUST FREAKIN' RELEASE IT THE WAY YOU WANT IT!!!!!
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Dec 06, 2003 11:31:10 PM CST
Great trailer! But it does look like Mel is really softeningi th
by skiddity
Most moviegoers don't give a rat's ass about this anti-semitism BS and those ass-faces in ADL, so JUST FREAKIN' RELEASE IT THE WAY YOU WANT IT!!!!!
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type your posts on MSWord and do spell check please? I can't understand some of you!
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Dec 06, 2003 11:43:23 PM CST
Gibson's PASSION is nothing but thinly disgusised gay bondage po
by mister pink
i mean, come on, look at it. A bunch of muscled up guys dressed like gladiators whipping a naked hunk a burnin' love. It's gayer than a French trombone. Isn't it kind of gay to worship a naked guy anyway? I'd rather worship a hot naked chick but that's just me. Also, Jesus wasn't killed by Jews, he was killed by Romans. And who the fuck stretched the fucking talkback? Can't we get somebody to delete those posts so it's not such a pain in ass to read the fucking thing?
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Please let's not stretch the talkback so we can all read your post on reaffirming your heterosexuality. This was what you had to say about the film? That you'd rather see a chick? This is your response to the film about Jesus? This is what you add to the fairly intelligent discussion? Thanks.
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Not much traces of Jesus on the trailer. Hmmmm. What's the plan this time?
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Jesus likely existed. Numerous historical sources corroborate this, including Paul's letter to the Romans, the oldest writing of the New Testament. That was written about 50 AD. As for anything else, we have to realize two things about ancient times. One, nobody was as concerned with historical accuracy as we are now. Fact checking was the exception, not the rule, in history. Many cultures still used oral storytelling as their main medium of communication and passing down of information. Two, what evidence there is, there isn't a great deal of it. 2000 years will destroy a great deal of paper evidence. So a letter saying, hey, I just met this guy Jesus, might not stick around to modern times. It only gets worse the farther back you go. For some stories, there are no original editions. Many of the stories of the bible are originally oral tradition. Which brings me to a point: Believing in God is not about denying reality by means of a pleasant fantasy. In essence, I believe Christianity is about believing in a very hard truth: You are a sinner. You are imperfect. Human beings, while improvable, are not perfectable. Given a choice, you are always capable of making the wrong one, of using your God-Given ability to think, see and understand to be thoughtless, unobservant, and to completely misunderstand the world around you. So much of the Bible is devoted to people getting it wrong. Moses? Got it wrong! David? Got it Wrong! Abraham? Got it wrong! Joseph, Jacob- Whoever! Nobody escapes without having committed some sin, doing some bloody-minded deed, or screwing up something God told them to do. Even in the New testament, we are told the following things: Paul, whose letters take up over half the New Testament, was a former Pharisee, a guy who drug people out of their homes to be imprisoned and executed. Simon Peter, the guy who became the first head of the church denied him three times on the day of his execution! And of course, Thomas just had to poke and prod Jesus to make sure the guy wasn't a hallucination. We're not dealing with the "we're perfect" squad here. This is a book where people not only make errors, but have those errors repeated for a future generation's benefit. How many modern leaders do that? Would Bush, a professed born-again Christian admit his sins, his deficiencies, his failures? So what is so hard about Christianity for modern people, since it's coming to so many of the same conclusions as modern thinkers? I believe, it's just that we approach it too much as if it were meant to rationally argue things to us. This is the error common between watered-down liberal Christianity and hellfire and damnation fundamentalist conservative. Either you're trying to stick with just the easy parts of the bible that easily fit with modern life, or you're trying to take a triple-translated, word-of-mouth originated document at its literal word. There's another way: mythology- a deeper kind of rationality that's better suited to dealing with the chaotic mess of details that religion offers up- What's important aren't necessarily the laws, but the understanding and wisdom behind it, the attitude towards oneself and others, and towards God. Instead of insisting on the absolute truth of Moses splitting the Red Sea, or explaining it away with a faulty translation of Reed sea, one looks at it as representing something, symbolizing something: God's dominion even over the forces of chaos, as epitomized in the waters of the deep. And there, in the appreciation of such mysteries, one can appreciate the viewpoint of a world which had not yet woken to the scientific viewpoint, but which nonetheless believed that some order, some power underlaid everything.
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Dec 07, 2003 12:12:13 AM CST
(Gil-Galad12 stares at MisterPink as if he was the stupidest per
by gil-galad12
And rightly so....
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As well as many others who have written previous posts above, both Christian, agnostics, and a few atheists, good arguments abound. But then there are of course, as with too many forums here, a few neandethals, like dear Mr. Pink, and many more.
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Dec 07, 2003 1:05:47 AM CST
Yes people are calling me stupid but they can't really rebut my
by mister pink
I've already deconstructed the Passion narratives and shown why they're ahistorical myths in a couple of other talkbacks. I was getting kind of bored so I just decide to post a thought I had while viewing the trailer. It just looked really gay to me. And there's not a damn thing wrong with being gay. I strongly support gay rights and gay marriage. I just think it looks a little swishy for a guy to pray to another naked dead guy and talk about "loving" him. You all know I'm right, just admit it.
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I really love chicken soup.
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Some of this discussion reminds me of when I compared some of the stories in the Bible to fairie tales to my students (the institutionalized mysticism comment made me think of it) -- got the same sort of shocked gasps, glares, and outbursts. What's funny is that they didn't seem to be able to grasp that a fundamental aspect of faith is the ability to question it and its aspects and manifestations. Questioning my faith doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. (Sidebar -- girl wrote a paper about how she was against gay marriage because God said it was wrong -- I asked her how she handled the idea that the Catholic Church at one time performed same sex marriages -- she was dumbfounded -- I told her she really should do some research into something that supposedly holds her immortal soul -- but that's probably a discussion for another forum)
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Also Fantastic!!!
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Your comments are sort of speaking for themselves in terms of blatant attention getting. And with the elevated vocabulary, now we know that you're not only heterosexual, but an intelligent heterosexual. Good for you. Keep 'em coming. Someday you'll get the attention you seek.
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Dec 07, 2003 1:14:07 AM CST
My last two cents... (actually my banking account has run out em
by robofag
Gee... this talkback is flying really high above the ground! What about some historic materialism for a while, instead of all this god-talk, or pagan-talk? Reading your reactions towards this upcoming movie reall makes me wonder is America's (and that probably includes Canada) is possibly in the verge of somekind of huge spiritual revolution, while I really don't know what would be the outcome of such event... Think about it... a big country, and an internet community, torn to the bone between alienating materialism (read: social slavery), goofy new age mysticism, President backed by religious fanatics (though I can't be sure if they are insane Christians or simply diabolical freemasons of some sort), plus hordes of paedophile preachers and the casual individualistic sociopaths doing bi-annual mass murders in schools and gas stations. Just as Ministry said: "Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste". Down with all this spiritual mayhem! Go Communism! REAL COMMUNISM!!!
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That's the main problem i have with Christianity, actually, this idea that all people are inherently sinful and dirty and need redemption. I don't buy it. I know lots of really good people (like me, for instance) who don't need to be redeemed for anything and don't believe in God. I was kidding about the "gay" thing but I'm serious when I say that I think there really is a masochistic streak in a lot of Christians. they seem to wallow in self-loathing and get off on grovelling. People are NOT inherently evil. Believe it or not, Christianity is the only religion which has a concept of original sin and it's not even universal in Chrsitianity.------------------------------------------------------FOOTFKNMASTER. I love the Robbins quote. I think it's dead on.
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But post crummy, angry posts in which you go off on a very large group of people, and you're going to get shit in response. I'll say this up front: I'm an agnostic. However, I still have a lot of respect for a lot of people of the many different faiths of the world. Why? Because they believe what they believe and are good about it. Not every Christian is some fundamentalist Bible-thumper who forces religion down your throat. Get over it. You're COMPLETELY ignoring all the good done by Christian churches, such as providing homeless shelters, foreign aid, student loans, disaster relief, the list goes on. You can insult religious people and talk of ghosts in the sky, but it makes you come off as a total asshole, and you get treated like one. You generalize a group of over a billion people. Tell me this: How is your diatribe different from some evangelist yelling at you about going to hell? You're both screaming about shit that could be done in a much more eloquent manner. Personally, I don't see how you or anyone else can say, "There is no God!" How the hell do you know? You can't. You can't prove that there is or isn't a God, which is why religion is based on a little something called faith. I can't say whether there is or isn't a God, but I wouldn't be surprised if I see Him after I die. You say you know there's no God. Prove it. That's what I thought. Stop being a dick.
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Maybe because if you read ALL my posts I cut too close to the bullshit?
Agnostic or apologist for the drug warriors/anti-arbortionists, etc? It never ceases to amaze me how many believers pretend they are not to attempt to influence others. Despicable.
I used harsh words cuz harsh words disprove the childish worldview espoused by believers. I HAVE ZERO NEED TO DEBATE YOU, fool.
And the ultimate rationalization...because some christians help out some people it is okay if christianity is never blamed for bigotry, murder, genocide (ask a Native American what they think of missionaries) etc, cuz that's your rationale in a nutshell, dimwit. No let's not look at foolish ideas that allow people to behave in absolutely horrendous fashion. READ WWW.JESUSNEVEREXISTED.COM get a clue. -
I wasn't going to post, but how could I resist following Mr. Pink???? I hate this site. I went looking for talkback about THE MOVIE, but I got a religion battle. Stop reading if you're waiting for me to reveal mine. Just to put this out though...Foywonder, all good points and good arguments become null and void when you use the phrase "stupid fuck" in a alleged intelligent argument. Gotta hand it to the other guy, regardless of whether I agree with him or not. (Ah fuck it...I don't agree with the other guy.)
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...i HATE looking dumb when I don't get my examples correct. Before you point it out, you said "ignorant fuck," not "stupid fuck." I apologize for the error...but you're still a moron.
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If Mel Gibson wants to make a Jesus movie, let him go to it. I'm an atheist, I don't give a shit. +++ Canada is not nearly as religious as the U.S. - or at least according to the NY Times, Canadians attend church much less than Americans do. Those socialist pot-smoking gay-marrying less-racist French-loving atheistic Canadians, we'd nuke 'em if the U.S. wasn't so reliant on their heavy export of comedians. +++ Ditto on the South. I've lived in the mid-south and the population is not a homogenous mass of rednecks. Back in the 80's the county I lived in was pretty damned white but the social status and geographical origin of those white people varied considerably. Things have changed even more in the past 15 years, you'd be surprised at how multi-color and multi-classed the South is these days. Parts of it, anyway.
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I appreciate your ferver and zealousness by which you post. It does seem to me that you spout the same hatred and intolerance that you accuse believers [of any faith] of. The flaw in your argument is that you cite "believers" as being bigots, murderers and capable of genocide, do your homework, those traits are found just as easily in the hearts of non-believers. Corruption, control, and greed etc.. is not just bound to people of faith. Despite that flaw there is truth in what you say, religion is at fault for terrible awful things in this world. I think some of the worse things that have been done have been done in the name of God/Jesus etc... What people really fail to realize is that Christ was a revolutionary, a rebel, someone who rocked the status quo and continually provoked the religious scholars of his day calling them out on their lies, arrogance and delusion of perfection. Jesus said "The world will hate me because I will tell them what they are doing is wrong." A statement like that can never be received easily. The difficulty of Christianity [whether you believe Jesus existed or not] is that it begs us [the believers] to look into ourselves to find fault before we find fault with with everyone else. It's a very introspective way of life similar to Zen Buddhism where the journey begins inward and travels outward, everything is affected by everything else. Someone mentioned that their issue with Christianity is that we humans are made out to be dirty horrible people. I agree with that but that has come from man and not Jesus/God. I am a believer [in Christ] but I also believe that we are inherently beautiful people, little Gods created in the image of God with the CAPABILITY of doing horrible things, being selfish, controlling, mean, spiteful, hateful and on and on and on. I hate "the well of woe" that we are cast into by organized Catholicism and Christianity. I am about a fair shake, one cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. That would be like me saying that all Germans are racists bigots because of Hitler and his minions. Do your homework.....................................................................J.M. Prater
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JTylor, I usually type my responses unedited directly into the Talkback window. Whenever I try to use an online spellcheck program, I lose my whole damned post. flipster, I think it depends on which laws you have trouble with. Many laws based on Judeo-Christian belief have benefited mankind, some have caused problems, and many more that blow aren
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Dec 07, 2003 3:39:46 AM CST
Oh so many good points brought up by Christians and Atheists ali
by gil-galad12
I especially liked the guy who was talking about bringing up Christianity and fairy tales in his class, and how some were afraid to question their faith. I totally agree. It is far too serious a matter to take likely lightly. Blind faith isn't real faith, its hiding your head in the sand. The people I think who have the truest faith are those who have questioned their faith many times, and because of this, its grown stronger. Hey, we're human, its our nature to question everything. Questioning my faith and exploring others' points of view has only made my own faith grow. If one's beliefs can't withstand a little questioning and outside opinion, they weren't very strong to begin with, were they? And to the guy who didn't like original sin- The way I take it, it means that none of us are perfect, and never will be. Yes, we are in a sense marred by the deeds of Adam and Eve, but we still have free will. We can make our own decisions, God will not interfere. We are capable of doing horrible things, but if we wish, we can do incredible good as well. But even so, we will not attain perfection. It is not within Men's abilities. We will always falter and fail at some point in our lives. Can someone else articulate this better, I'm not that eloquent a speaker.
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You make an excellent argument for Christianity's best aspect: it is a religion that recognizes that we are imperfect as humans, but can nevertheless strive to be good, and despite our mistakes, this striving is not in vain. (Unfortunately, I can't think of a single sect of Christianity that doesn't get so entangled in the specifics of biblical mythology that it misses the point of the religion entirely. Well, maybe the Quakers are close...) *************** May I then ask what your thoughts on these two problems, which I think are the primary argument against Christianity? ---------- (1) Sin, or human imperfection, supposedly arose when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. In other words, Christianity (and Judaism and Islam) are to some extent founded on the belief that ignorant innocence is better than knowledge. ---------- (2) Christianity, like all religions, essentially asks that we believe in something unprovable: That a god exists, and that certain people throughout history have been in communion with him. Once we believe in something unprovable, we have abandoned rationality. When we abandon our rationality - that is when disastrous things happen. It is people abandoning their reason in favor of patriotism, pseudo-religiousness, mob mentality, etc. that has lead to disasters like the First World War, or the Holocaust. Bearing this in mind, is it really a good idea to have any religion at all?
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Excellent points, and ones which adherents of all faiths would do well to consider. If one isn't willing to put the foundations of one's beliefs through that kind of scrutiny, then one is indeed giving in to ignorance and, in the long run, setting the stage for calamity.
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I think a lot of other people have hit upon what I meant by people be inherently sinful: To miss the mark. To stray from what's right. Thing is, I do have faith in human goodness, in it's potential to arise in just about everyone. But I also have certainty about human weakness and fallibility. I believe such awareness is necessary, because it is in our denial of our fallibility, our denial that we can stray from the truth, that we commit the greatest crimes, and do the most self-destructive things to our souls. We sin whether or not we are religious. We can a raise a wall of denial around ourselves, until we no longer really follow the truth, doing what we do, but instead are ensnared in illusion. If one believes in Satan, this is where he enters into the picture- not as an opposite to God, but as encourager of our worst tendencies in our human dealings with the truth. If God can supernatural guide us to do better if we seek him out, Satan can pull us towards bad assumptions and worse behavior. Evil comes about when we give up on correcting our behavior and hold on to our error filled judgements. The fact is, and we can see examples across history and in our own lives, nobody has yet found a way to complete expunge this capability of evil from us. There is no making mankind perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. So this is the human condition. The question is, do we surrender to that encroaching darkness of error, denial, and illusion, or do we seek to do what's right, to seek what is true, and to acknowledge that the world as we percieve is not necessarily the world as it really is. I became a full Roman Catholic after years of agnosticism because I became convinced that wrapped up in all the tradition, in all the scripture, there were truths that stand the test of time, and teachings that address some of the most serious problems of human society. I believe that there is something transcendent in such a collection of wisdom and knowledge, of grace and healing. Whether you agree is up to you.
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Jesus dies at the end of the movie!
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stop labelling people
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your post is very original *rolls eyes*
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Yep, good ol' whitebread Christ. Brilliant work, Mr. Gibson. Your work is indeed true to The Bible's unwavering factual account. Well, you got everything except for the "lamb's wool."
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Dec 07, 2003 11:03:20 AM CST
I'm probably as much or more against organized religion than any
by smeg for brains
... damn if I don't respect Mel for doing this movie. He worked completely outside the system and made it the way he wanted with no compromises. And making a movie about Christ isn't the same as forcing your religious beliefs on others. I'm not a Christian (or religious period), but I believe Christ existed (wether he was the "Son of God" I can't say) and I am interested in his story as such a huge world changing event that has shaped this planet for millenia (be it in good or bad ways). You know hw is doing something right when he already has religious groups pissed off at him. I personally think that fantastic religious elements aside Christs real teachings (not what a bunch of old rich men now claim he taught or "would do") are good rules to live your life by wether you call yourself a Christian or not. I also believe that most people who call themselves Christians are full of shit, and often do the oposite of what Christ would want them to. I remember the Christian Coalition saying that they wouldn't support Bob Dole because he wasn't HARD ENOUGH on wellfare. What the fuck is more Christian than WELLFARE! Besides the point that we could pay for our wellfare programs a hundred fold with just a small peice of what we spend on weapons of mass destruction, so what? If you have enough (or in republicans cases MORE than enough) to provide for yourself, and especially if you call yourself a Christian, you should willingly give as much as you can to help those who don't have enough to make it. But so called Christians, who are most often Republicans all seem to think that wellfare is this horrible thing that we should do away with. Well it's greedy money hording bastards like a lot of them that don't pay enough money to workers, and move jobs out of this country, that CAUSE the need for wellfare. How Christian is that? Anyway, I wuld fully support any person who wants to make a religious film, even if I don't believe in their religion. Why? Because this is supposed to be a country where people can do that without fear of having the film censored. If you don't agree with the film don't go see it. I for one welcome another film based on a major global historic event that is also done by someone with integrity and talent, rather than some scumbag like Pat Robertson, and which looks to at least be honest in it's veiws, and not missleading propaganda for the corrupt organized side of religion (like the scumiest of them all at the Vatican, protecting their child molesting evil slime). Good for Martin Scorsese, and good on ya Mel!
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I think thats the point of HAVING a Jesus in the first place, no?
we ARE weak -- and defensless--
and it may be true that religion is for the weak minded that cannot take control of their lives...BUT I think it would be fare to say that RELIGION is really for the weak minded that cannot take control over their DEATH...which would pretty much include EVERYONE on THIS planet, including you and me...
Believe me-- when a person is at deaths door and the moment comes...all your rationality and pride and sense of power and control mean nothing...all your arguments over whether or not its cool to believe in something more than yourself melts away--
Ive seen it more than once in my life-- prideful people that are forced back into perspective by the fact that their time had run out...and at that moment, none of them were ashamed to yell out to Jesus and God for some help-- some salvation--
--as far as "organized religion" goes-- yes, there is alot of BS to filter through...alot of politics and hipocracy... making such a simple thing as believing in God into a complicated ordeal that comes across as a scam...even the truely honest ones look bad thanks to these elements... all we need is your credit card number-- such rubbish--
SO we turn to this MOVIE... evrybody seems to ba talking about everything EXCEPT about the movie itself-- the powerful and moving sacrifice made by somebody whose only desire was to SAVE us and give us love...whether you believe He was the Son of God or not-- you have to be moved by the amount of HEART and Love that He gave.. giving Himself to bear all of our sin on Himself so that God would have compassion and forgive us. He didnt have to do it, but he did anyways...how much does a person have to care about somebody else to go through so much pain and agony to save them? Its just overwhelming to think that anybody would go through so much to make some kind of way for us to be saved ... to continue existing-- its a very touching thing. At the very least, its enough to make me think--
not to argue my point to you or change your mind about whatever...you have to take in every perspective and make your own choices about what you choose to believe-- I dont bash other peoples opinions,( I keep an open mind and listen ) so I dont want anyone to bash mine...just putting it out there.
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I think you don't understand the word religion -- even you clearly have one, although it's apparently not to have one. Coda, Dogma, Credo, it's a many-faceted word that doesn't strictly have to mean Judeo-Christian Jesus worship. "A doctrine or custom depending on faith." Even if that faith is in one's self. Or here, maybe this will help: I THINK YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND...oh forget it, I don't have the lung power.
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I just want to say that people who type things in all caps make the most compelling arguments. Once I read something typed in all caps, I know it must be true. And when someone types FACT in all caps at the end of a message, I know there is no point in arguing anymore, that pretty much settles any issue.
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Dec 07, 2003 12:37:25 PM CST
Flipster, you've been singled out due to assholery and ignorance
by durendal
It's funny how you've ignored the posts that talk about how Christianity isn't responsible for the woes of the world; people are. Any jerk can come along and twist doctrine to serve his own purpose, like Jerry Falwell. The guy is a dick, but he is NOT representitive of Christianity. Funny, because I don't blindly bash a group of over a billion people, you call me an apologist. I'll say this again so you understand it: PEOPLE are the problem, NOT religion! There have been atrocities throughout history that had nothing to do with religion. Why don't you actually learn about what you're bashing before you go and bash it, or are you afraid of having your intolerant, bigoted beliefs challenged? I think you're standing there with your fingers in your ears, saying, "LALALLALALALALA, I can't hear you!"
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Does anyone else find it unusual that a subject as highly charged as faith has produced less piss and vinegar on this talkback than say, oh, LOTR vs. Star Wars? I don't know what that means, but it's kinda fucking weird.
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Duh! The big question is wether or not Gibson included the ressurrection at the end of the film. And if he did, how did he visualize it? Just the stone rolled away from the grave? Or Jesus floating in the sky with Industrial Light & Magic angels shouting HALLELUJAH? Try spoiling that, jackass!
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People are imperfect sinners. God made them, the world, and Satan too. However, God's not responsible for any ill effects caused by sinning 'n' Satan. And anything bad that happens is humanity's fault. Gee willy willerkins, what a nice no-accountability setup for the Deity. What a good racket. Creating a world and a biology which humans have an extremely difficult time resisting, then telling them it's all their fault for acting in ultimately self-destructive ways (if God didn't want me eating 4 Hershey bars a day, why did he make chocolate taste so good? Bastard!). I don't buy into God's lack of culpability. If there is an after-life It's going to have some 'splaining to do, because the deck was stacked against us. Also if there is no chocolate in Heaven, that's not much of a heaven.
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gee, now how did a religous debate start up? this is one topic I'm going to stray very far from, too many bad experiances with religion in my youth. But I'm going to get back on topic like very few people have, and comment on the actual movie this forum is about. I think its definetly the most stylized version of a jesus film, and the creepy pasty faced person looks interesting enough. does anyone know if this film will recieve a wide or limited release???
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dammit, I said I wound'nt get involved but, i agree with you. christianity is someone tyrannical when you think about it. so humans have free will,right? make are own choices? well, here are the choices god really gives us, "serve me or die". that is basically what it boils down to, a threat, an ultimatum. so what the hell is the poing of giving a choice if one of them is obviously going to destroy us? Gee, serve you or die...hmmm, let me think about that. Personally, I don't think I commit sins (not the bad ones anyway). I fornicate, but if your only supposed to have sex for reproduction when your married, why does it fucking feel great? I look up porn, but the porn stars have a choice if they wanna do those things or not, and get paid for it. I eat bad food, lie sometimes. but thats about it. I don't steal, murder, sleep with thy neighbors wife yadda yadda. I don't think the sins I do commit should really send me to hell or oblivion. my post is making sense I know, theres a ton I got to say about religion, I just don't wanna cram it. also, why the hell are there so many versions of christianity, and why are they all against each other? why the hell do millions upon millions of people donate money to the church, while the fucking priest drives home in a brand new jaguar, to his million dollar home. I know this for fact, my roomates uncle is one such priest who lives off other people income. wasn't jesus poor? so shouldnt all preachers and what not follow his example and preach for free? and work like everyone else? jesus had a fucking job, so they should too. oops, I continued to ramble. oh, and whats up GIL-GALAD? I made no mention of ROTK owning anyone.
oh wait..... -
Dec 07, 2003 2:51:55 PM CST
CREEPY THIN MAN LIKES TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND SAY "FACT" AT THE
by gil-galad12
Okay caps off now, that's getting annoying. But what the hell does it matter if you think AICN sucks now. You're kind of right, but who cares? Its not the end of the world. So you have to go to some Chud place for your movie scoops now, so what? Can you continue living your life?
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Dec 07, 2003 2:59:23 PM CST
its about time someone said something about creepy thin mans stu
by bourne greyelf
its about time someone said something about creepy thin mans stupid posting style.
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Dec 07, 2003 3:25:27 PM CST
if you haven't gone to www.jesusneverexisted.com and checked the
by flipster
then by all mean keep shoving your head in the ground. In your case ignorance is most definitely bliss.
I never called anyone names - you do because you do not have reason on your side - RELIGION creates bullies like you - cannot argue w/facts so you use name-calling, then expulsion then murder. Let's hear it for intolerant religious thought - hip hip hooray! Death to the unbelievers! yay!
And you know what, here's a gift for you believers. Me I am at the end of my rope - looking for work but it just ain't happening. I am a little older (39) w/no family cuz mine was really bad (incest, abandoment, abuse, stupidity) so I went west recently because I love the west here in canada (BC). Had to leave Montreal in the 90's for lack of work and the fact that my career was ended because I spoke out against having english rights taken away from us - end of writing career - but now there really seems no place for me. Spent 7 yaers in Toronto prior to coming west.. I have a good friend out here who has helped tremendously, but I think my struggle is over. If I can't get work in the next two weeks I am killing myself. I am serious. Why bother - homeless, fuck that. No I won't be doing it over Xmas - probably do it the first week of Jan so my buddies can have a care-free holiday season.So guys, no worries your faith will probably get stronger through subtraction. Peace out.. -
Dec 07, 2003 3:40:02 PM CST
I knew it. I knew the second I saw the subject line that this ta
by sith lord sauron
*Shakes head* And I was right. It's just a movie people, see it or don't it makes no difference.
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It's actually pretty good -- written a bit hysterically, but I like their analyzing of specific aspects of history, Biblical passages, etc. A lot of people will probably dismiss it out of hand, unfortunately. As for this being just a flamewar, I think that's a bit reductive -- yes, there are some people who are calling some idiots on their bullshit (Creepy, I'm sorry there's a gun at your head making you come to this site, please call 911 immediately) but for the most part it's been a great give and take of ideas. I've learned quite a bit from this particular discussion.
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...about children having to be raised into religion, and if they are not, they probably won't become christians at an earlier age. such is the case with me, I had a normal mother up until I was about 12, then she becomes a jehovas witness, and forces me to attent these bible studies and stop liking the things I liked. I had to endure this nonsence till I was 18, then I moved the fuck out and split. while I was forced to go to church, or as they call it, the kingdom hall, I noticed most of the jw people were raised from children. one day mom mother said," i wish I could have raised you as a jw". and I was like," oh, you mean you wish you could have brainwashed me, before I had a choice?" she was like..uh...no...its bullshit, if we were meant to serve god, we would be born with the natural instinct to do so, not have to be brainwashed into it. my freedom was stripped from me for 6 fucking years, but I held on, I refused to be brainwashed, I was compelled to disobey, as agent smith stated. well, I think I'm better off without religion. I still talk to my mom, but everytime there is a sadness in her eyes, she believes I'm going to be destroyed, and favors spending time with her jw buddies than me. so I ask, what kind of religion could drive a mother and son apart? a family apart? ALL OF THEM!
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what I meant in the first sentence was, if kids are raised from birth as christians, they probably won't take up the practive when the get older.
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Trailer looks awesome yet a bit too rushed IMO, a teaser is right! Hope Mel has a longer version of this trailer waiting in the wings, I'm with ya Harry, can't wait to see it on the BIG screen, this is going to be the flick to see come Febuary! It will definitely RULE as the top Jesus film ever made!
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So, if I go to Jesus never existed, that makes me ignorant? By what you just said, I was supposed to look at both sides. Or did you want to just condemn, proclaim what you beleive to be right, and then leave? Wow, that sounds a lot like...
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As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him,
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Interesting how everyone seems to be ignoring you... probably has to do with the surprisingly accurate points you're making, which I agree with. But anyway, It's obvious that no one's going to change anyone else's mind, and repeatedly posting web addresses that support YOUR (flipster) view isn't going to either. As for myself, I am a non-denominational Christian, who believes that Jesus, who was God's son, was sent to earth to save us for every sin we have, will or ever could commit- all we have to do is repent. I am far from perfect, and I know I make mistakes, but all I can do is keep trying to be the best disciple I can. Oh, and by the way, God didn't create hell- no one did because hell doesn't exist in physical form. It's the place were he didn't create anything. The fire is a metaphor. God doesn't "send" you there, either- you choose to go by not accepting him. It's up to you- He gave us free will. Now, all this probably won't do anything, but I felt that, successful or no, I was fulfilling my purpose in life by at least trying. Hope that atheism/agnosticism works out for you; you can stop ridiculing our beliefs now.
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WTF? I thought it was just "The Passion of Christ." THE Christ sounds stupid, but will undoubtedly drum up plenty of "Nobody fucks with the Jesus" quotes.
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People who believe in religion are naive fools, its a fad made up by man, to make him feel more comfortable with death and the unexplained.
Religion has caused almost every war known to man, not to mention the amount of pedo- priests, wife abusing Muslims, extremist losers that cant face reality, and people out there just to brain wash and abuse venerable unsuspecting fools.
Religion has no place in modern day society it only breads hate and contempt, peace n out brothers!
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Gibbson seems so intent on being biblicly accurate yet has completly ignored ANY historical accuracy. I'm not talking about anything that would conflict with the bible, just basic stuff, like Roman soldiers equipment at the time. This lack of care is especialy odd in a film that uses dead languages in the name of accuracy. I know that Braveheart and especialy the Patriot (not Gibbson's fault) were historicaly dodgy (the Patriot being a complete historical "lie") but this is ment to be his little "baby"...
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The hilarious thing about all of this is the way this story is always presented as a story "the Jews". People can't use their brain enough to realize that even if every word of the story were true, we are talking about the actions of a tiny group of people, who even if that did claim to represent the whole religion (doubtful--the Jewish religion doesn't operate that way) would have no real claim to be able to.
Without having seen this movie I can't comment definitively on it, but it's typical for movies and books on this subject to be lazy, narratively, and obscure this fact. And saying that there were "Jews for Jesus" and characterizing them as proto-Christians and "Jews against Jesus" (aka - the ones who "killed" him) is an equal helping of bullshit. Did every Muslim help the wackos who ran a plane into the World Trade Center? Of course not. A handful did. The rest either didn't know, didn't care, or given a choice would not have supported it. Why is this any different?
Also: the kind of language being used occasionally here ("some Jews killed him, some didn't") is pretty pointed. Even among that small unrepresentative group possibly involved, even making the huge assumtion that most of this information is accurate, is there really enough info to come to this conclusion? That other factors weren't involved... let's say a bunch of Italians who seem to escape historical blame of any type when people start throwing around the "you killed my lord" talk. Which I still hear today--I don't have to hop in a time machine. I've had people come up to me and tell ME that I personally killed their lord. Me. Sitting here 2000 years later, with more "blood" from genetic strains which were nowhere near the ancient Med. region than blood which was.
So I guess I want to know what the point of this film is. Does it really want to show this as a possibly fictional conflict of INDIVIUALS or some collective motion of nations of people? -
besides your tell-tale email address. Let's be clear, I will probably know if it all this bs is true or not. A gift for you believers. Me I am at the end of my rope - looking for work but it just ain't happening. I am a little older (39) w/no family cuz mine was really bad (incest, abandoment, abuse, stupidity) so I went west recently because I love the west here in canada (BC). Had to leave Montreal in the 90's for lack of work and the fact that my career was ended because I spoke out against having english rights taken away from us - end of writing career - but now there really seems no place for me. Spent 7 yaers in Toronto prior to coming west.. I have a good friend out here who has helped tremendously, but I think my struggle is over. If I can't get work in the next two weeks I am killing myself. I am serious. Why bother - homeless, fuck that. No I won't be doing it over Xmas - probably do it the first week of Jan so my buddies can have a care-free holiday season.So guys, no worries your faith will probably get stronger through subtraction. Peace out.
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Assuming your even vaguely serious, all I can say is, why use a permantent solution to a short term problem? Just doesn't make sense...
Just go do some laybouring or farmhand work (etc.) it's amazing how satisfying manual work can be in this digital era. -
nice ideas but none here that can pay the rent, etc. cannot get work, very important idea there. I have qualifications/experience/talent up the ass in my field but it is worthless - I am not tall and young. I am shorter than the norm 5'3" with some grey - it's over. And I do not always make the best choices, so better off gone. But thanks for the thoughts. And if you check the stats my age/sex (male) group has the highest proportion of suicides than any other demographic. for real. so for once I'll be normal but like I said let's give it two more weeks.
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The world is filled with masters. Money is one. Celebrity is another. Madison ave. is one, Abercrombie and Fitch is another. The world is filled with people and organizations demanding our loyalty, asking for our aid in whatever purpose they are engaged in. We choose who we enslave ourselves to, who we allow ourselves to serve. Freedom is not the lack of any restraint, it's the ability to choose one's burdens, to choose what one works for. I've chosen to work for God. I believe God exists, and I believe God created the world, a conclusion I do not believe to be mutually exclusive of a belief in natural history. But what I believe, is that because God is capable of creating the world, he A) knows far more than I do about the order of the world, and B) cannot screw it up in terms of my context because I am impossible without those rules. I exist. We exist. I can feel great things, and experience the pleasures and excitements of this life. Yes, things go wrong, yes, injustice occurs, yes, pain and suffering enter into our lives. But if you really look at it, what else are pain and suffering but the wish to be free from something, or to have something else than what you got? Pain and suffering are motivation to do something else, to be in some other place, to basically try and avoid or resolve ugly situations. Is it bad to feel pain, if it means you jump away from an animal trying to attack you? Is it bad to feel ugly and depressed about death, if you're trying to survive? Is it bad to feel angry if somebody is trying to falsely accuse you of something, or is trying to impose on you wrongly? Many of the symptoms of our illnesses come from the body's reaction to the germs, not the effects of the germs themselves. Of course, sometimes the body overreacts, or the germ overcomes our defense and our bodies's systems, and that's a bad thing. But these aren't just bad things to be bad things. the Cosmos is not trying to play a trick on us- it doesn't know how. God did not create the universe to suit our convenience, he created it with the potential of our existence, and those may be two different things at times. We can argue about volcanoes and earthquakes, about evolution and descent from simians, but you know what? perhaps these are conditions of our very existence. Perhaps it was monkeys, or nothing else. Perhaps it was evolution, or some kind of less likely spontaneous events. I am convinced that Plate Tectonics and the general geology of the earth are very much responsible for life and the way life was shaped over geologic time Perhaps, in the end, this is best we can get, the best God can provide us without screwing things up, or sacrificing our best possible destiny. I am one of the least likely people to believe in God, according to most standards. I am a skeptic, a liberal, a scientific thinker, and a believer in secular humanism. But I hunger and thirst for the unknown, for the ultimate, for that reality, metaphysical or otherwise that binds everything together, and by my standards, serving that universal spirit is no slavery at all, but the greatest possible freedom, because it means that I am no longer willingly bashing my head against the wall asking why couldn't things suit me. It is an accident of birth, and the agreement of my principles and my sensibilities that made me Catholic, it is a belief in greater things than myself that makes me Christian.
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You've only lived half your life, if that. The only thing that makes any failure complete or inescapable, is the end of that life. Before that, you have many chances, whether you are aware of it or not, to do good and great things. People aren't just ignorant of the bad things the ugly things that could happen in life, but also the possibilities for good fortune and success, love and happiness. Don't start thinking that you know all that could possibly happen with the next forty or more years of your life. Better people than you have had less than that chance. You would foolish to give up on that gift.
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what part of no money no job no family do you not understand?
I'm giving myself two weeks to get something. Believe me in my half-life I have seen and done more than most people will in their whole lives, though there is always more to do and no I do not want to die. NO MONEY NO WORK = no life in 2003.
Anybody who knew anything about my life to use the word "gift" would be laughed at by my friends. it ain't no gift, I've been fighting since I was 6. Six! Constantly and always. You idiots can pray for me during the next two weeks, what do I care, but spare me your sanctimony. Me I gotta go look for work. -
The trailer looks good - But I am not going to see this movie as I'm not interesting in its subject matter. On the other hand, I'd *totally* pay to see a movie about Scientology. For those that don't know Scientology's back story, an article about the cose beliefs of Scientology can be found at http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/OTIII/minton-essay.txt ... The core of scientology, (although you'll only learn this after you've paid already significant amounts of money to them - there, I just saved you a buck or 100.000) involves the story of Xenu, an evil alien overlord who lived 75 million years ago and who ruled 76 planets. He had to deal with an overpopulation problem so he killed trillions of them by freezing their bodies, bringing them to earth (known as "Teegeeack" at the time), and dumping the bodies in volcanoes. Through some convoluted subplots, these spirits are now infesting our bodies and cause you to experience a false reality. Only by paying a whole bunch of money will you get rid of these spirits, and experience the universe "clearly". I'd totally pay money so see a movie based on this get made! I'd vote for Jason Isaacs as Xenu.
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Hollywood has been making Christian films since the early 20th century. I don't see why people make a fuss about it, it's just another film about the life and death of Jesus. There's been countless versions of that story and here's yet another one. And for those wondering why Hollywood isn't making a film about another religion such as Islam, well, it's all about the market boys and girls. If the US was a predominately Muslim nation, then I'm sure there'd be plenty of Islam themed films. But I have to say Tigernan I do agree with you that people should keep their beliefs to themselves. Organized religion has been the cause of countless deathes for centuries. Although one must grudgingly admit that Christianity did play a vital role in the development of Western civilization with its emphasis on the individual. Oh well, I'm going on a tangent. I'm sure there will be plenty of protests by hardcore right wing Christian fundamentalists and other groups when this thing opened. If you want to see a truly AMAZING film about Jesus, rent Martin Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ. It drove the right wing Christians crazy, which is ALWAYS a plus in my book.
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Dec 07, 2003 9:54:31 PM CST
Blaming Religion for the imperfections of man is for the weakmin
by williammunny
I personally don't care what people believe. Atheist, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Scientology whatever. But it amazes me how much people blame religion for the shortcomings of humanity. Religion does not cause war, human intolerance and greed do. Was there a decrease in war and violence when the influence of religion waned? No. Western Society started to become increasingly secular with the rise of Humanism in the 13th-16th Centuries. Because of the religious division caused by the Reformation, there was an upswing in religious violence in the 16th and 17th Centuries. But after the Enlighenment of the 18th Century there wasn't an end to warfare and killing. The 18th Century was a century of almost constant fighting in Europe. Britain and France fought in at least five wars (Wars of Austrian and Spanish Succesion, The Seven Years War, The European spinoff of the American Revolution and the Wars of the French Revolution, which stretched into the early 19th Century.) The Seven Years War was the first truly world war with fighting in Asia, Europe and the Americas. Also, Prussia was in a state of almost constant war with the countries of Eastern Europe. The 19th Century saw a series of colonial wars against African Countries, and by European rivals in Africa. The 20th Century witnessed the two most destructive wars in history. Religion had very little to do with any of these wars. The Crusades were as much about economics as religion. EVERY government, EVERY country, EVERY political system, EVERY ideology has blood on its hands. Blaming religion is a simplistic attitude. There has been as much blood spilt over money, land and politics as there ever was over religion. The basic message of Christ is to love your neighbor as you love your self. If more people followed that, the world would be a decent place. But instead people say "One version of the Gospel says Jesus had Seven fish, and another says he had five, so it's all a fraud and I can do whatever I want." How about forgetting the semantics of it and just trying to be a decent human being by treating other people with dignity and respect.
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Oh my God, its another shoved down my throat movie about Christ, Boo Hoo, my Daddy made me throw away all my comics and heavey metal albums when I was A child and Im not havin anyones beliefs shoved on me! Hey, They shoved Wiping your ass on your didnt they, Im surprised you do that seeing you didnt make up the view. And to all you who piss and moan about religion being the root of war and evil in the world for tha last millenium, WAKE UP Kid's! The almighty dollar, greed and that selfish little pill you take on your way to yet another obscure record store will never be the cause of anything, keep rebelling, go and find your way! You Nitwits, you make me sick. You dont have to love Christianty but why hate it.
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Released on 12/25/2004 a whole year -- WTF???
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WTF again.....
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Dec 07, 2003 11:48:07 PM CST
FUCK! It's just a MOVIE. Get your panties out of a bunch, you
by commando cody
For crying out loud, if you WANT to see it (like I do, it's one of the movies I'm most looking forward to this year for my own personal reasons) then plunk down your hard-earned 8 bucks and go see it. Now, if you want to see it because you're Christian or just a movie fan and want to see what Gibson will do as a directoral follow-up to BRAVEHEART, thats' cool. Go for your own reasons. And (hopefully) enjoy the movie. But if you DON'T want to see it because you don't like the subject matter (ie. religious movies) OR you don't believe in Jesus OR as a movie fan, you have no interest in seeing it for purely filmmaking reasons, then here's an earthshaking revelation for you: in that case, JUST DON'T GO. But you fuckers saying this is somehow ramming religion -- or Gibson's beliefs -- down your throats, as if the military was crashing through your door and tying you up and MAKING you watch it, is utterly ridiculous. Sheesh, I've never seen so many crybabies over a movie. Go...or don't go. What, that's too hard a choice for you to make?
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I wonder if it has the bit where JC marries Mary Magdalen and moves to the South of France (why not?) and found the Merovinian Royal line of France which were protected by the Paladins. Then Christ's decendants were guarded by the the Templars and today Masons (backed by the Illuminati) manipulate things to put the decendants of Christ in to power awound the world (JFK wasn't a decendant so he was killed). In fact the direct decentant of JC is a Child currently held under Roslin Chapel in Scotland and is being tutored to rule the whole world...
Might sound like crap but it also might make as good a basis for a movie... -
I don't like disaster films so I DON'T GO TO SEE THEM. So If you don't like religious topics, stay away...It's your choice! I'm not very religious (and fundamentalist -selective literalists annoy me as much as the next guy)but I realy enjoyed "the Last Temptation".
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I am the lord's messenger! Worshippers welcome your seventh prophet. TB's are the first to see my true nature. I love you all. J was okay for his day, but now I walk the Earth. The unbelievers shall cry piss from their eyes in shame. I am come.
Mel is but a vessel through which history died. A flawed vessel, but vessel nevertheless. All believers are saved. Your past subservience is noted and loved. It is time for the New Flesh. All love all praise all glory be unto me. And my love shall pierce your dark hearts bringing joy into the evil. The unbelievers will realize their folly just as it is too late. All love to me and from me! All love. -
Dec 08, 2003 12:36:12 AM CST
Actually, I Don't Think People Should Keep Their Beliefs To Them
by tigernan
Expression of beliefs in what happens after we die, and where we all come from (which, let's face it, is the purpose behind the search for God, Truth, whatever you want to call it), I think is quite healthy -- whether you believe or not, it sparks a certain healthy debate, as evidenced on this very board here (certain posters aside). I find value in talking to Jews about their faith, Wiccans about theirs, and so on. In fact, when compared, it's amazing how many fundamental tenants the faiths share. The whole basis for my particular thorn in my ass was the idea that Gibson, who has a strict fundamentalist Catholic pre-Vatican view, has made a movie about his beliefs -- which, in and of itself, I've got no problem with -- it's the folks who watch it and accept it as "truth" blindly that I worry about. But I've also seen the other side through many posters excellent writings here. Ah, the Gospel of Aint It Cool. Glorious.
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Actualy, Jesus is Lucifer redeemed.
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You didn't call anyone names? What, do you have short-term memory loss? Here are a few of your sayings from this very talkback: "...anyone whose symbol of worship is a dying guy on a cross are some sick and twisted folks." "believers are very fearful. cowardly sucking up to some human-created mythology to "save" themselves from invisible ghosts in the sky. I am sick of christian/muslim/jewish loons attempted to force their laws down my throat." There are two little insults you threw. Yet you want to tell ME not to throw insults? You did it first, buddy-boy. Give an insult, expect one or two back. That Jesus Doesn't Exist site is completely irrelevent, you dolt. I'm not debating whether religion is true or not, I'm telling you that mindlessly bashing Christianity on the whole is stupid and ignorant. BIG difference. Religion did NOT make a "bully" like me. I told you, I'm an agnostic, but I guess since I don't blindly hate religion like you, I'm with THEM, aren't I? I AM NOT A RELIGIOUS PERSON. Get that through your head. I'm not forcing religion down your throat, I'm not shoving intolerant religious thought onto you. I'm calling you out on bullshit. You (and others here) blame historical wrongdoings on religion. It's not religion that did that, it was PEOPLE. People twisting doctrine to serve their own selfish purpose. People who have actually read the New Testament would realize that the teachings of Christ say, "Love your neighbor, no matter who he/she is." That's what it boils down to, and those who preach hatred in the name of religion are not true Christians. The kindly priest who devotes his life to helping the poor and destitute is a true Christian. I suppose you'll say that Mother Teresa was a weak-minded imbecile. *** Oh, and I'm calling bullshit on your sob story. Writer? English? I seriously doubt that. If you were involved in that line of work, I don't think you'd be using such atrocious grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. There's always work to be found, you just have to look harder and sometimes take a job you don't like. Go get some Prozac.
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all this hit air has even me wondering what the fuck is up. Sorry dudes - been kinda hungry lately. A little off, a little hopeless and a little frightened of the evil that men do.
Love and Rockets, baby, love and rockets.
And let's see this film - CHECK OUT Butt-Numb-A-Thon link on main page- THEY SAW THIS FILM W/GIBSON PRESENTING. Yeah, for real apparently. And yeah I can't wait to get my grubby eyes, ears and btrain on this baby. Fearless prediction - it'll do monster book. -
At the end of the day. Who is the real christain. The rich Televangelist or the Salvation Army guy working with street kids??? Pretty easy question to answer.
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After reading a ton of this, I've come to the conclusion that a creed doesn't make you smart, merely selective. That said, across all faiths, across all creeds, I hate morons. I've read a bunch of these posts no doubt typed by some pinhead sucking down a candy bar, chortling "Checkmate" and he hits send. Innarticulate atheists, intellectual hypocrites, half-assed spiritualists, barely literate theists... it's all like nails on a chalk board. When I listen to someone who has a sound mind discuss his faith, it's like music. Discussing how he used his faith, or reasoned lack thereof, to live a good life, raise a good family, and deal with the world like a real human being is always pleasing and the differences in doctrine are never a problem. But some of these posts would have Sagan, Luther, and Ghandi taking hits off of a bottle of Wild Irish Rose whilst they beat the guilty authors semi-solid with a tire iron. Don't get me wrong, some of the posts are well written, but the grand majority are crap and have nothing to do with THE FILM. As for THE FILM, I have to wonder about Gibson's Big 'ol Balls for leaving the work untranslated. Hell, I'll see it for that.
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Dec 08, 2003 1:21:15 AM CST
Wow, jben_evens,that was a great testimony. I read the entire th
by gil-galad12
I've seen countless stories just like yours, and it always lifts my spirits to see them. I have to weed through the substantial dribble posted here to come across stuff like yours and some other peoples posts. May your faith continue to guide you.
p.s.- To GreyElf, what did you mean, "What's up Gil-Galad, I didn't mention how ROTK will own every movie"? By the way, has anyone seen the new ROTK commercials with the lament for Gandalf in the background? Very awesome stuff. -
There are a ton of people that call themselves Christians, but an alarming number are not. To be a Christian is to follow the teachings of Christ. Many people let too much doctrinal interpretation and charismatic but misleading preachers pull them away from that, and it's really sad to see it happen. *** I got a real kick out the Ghandi/tire iron analogy. Don't ever change! *** Flipster, if you want a truce, that's fine. I hope we've all learned something today, if only in a South Park-esque manner...
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Dec 08, 2003 1:33:29 AM CST
re: I hope we've all learned something today, if only in a South
by flipster
Seconded. And thanks for accepting truce. Much appreciated.
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Thanks for your honesty, I really mean that, your posts intrigue me more than most because of it. I'm about 10 years your junior but I have experienced molestation, a 3.5 year confinement while I was a child, and a life within the confines of a pseudo-cult in Uptown Chicago. I hear you loud and clear, LOUD and CLEAR. Now, at the age of 28 I am a confused bisexual hermit [scoff if you all must] who does not enjoy being touched, deals with extreme psychological anxiety and emotional dettachment and a disdain for social envoirnment. How about dem apples? And yet I live, I breath, I love and there's life in me yet. I am not you, that much I realize and suicide had crossed my mind more than once a few years ago. I have also seen and experienced more than most people. I do not consider myself religious whatsoever, religion is the scurge of the Earth, I have something better, a lie or not. I know I am loved, I know I am cared for. Maybe it's self delusion or maybe not. I read the words of Jesus Christ and understand his life and strive to be like him. It's been a long journey but without the idea that the world is bigger than me and there's more going on than I realize than I would have surely killed myself years ago. Please contact me, I don't have answers but have a phone and ears and can write :) Jaimeprater2000@yahoo.com...................................................................................................................................Heaven bent to take my hand
And lead me through the fire
Be the long awaited answer
To a long and painful fight
Truth be told I've tried my best
But somewhere along the way
I got caught up in all there was to offer
And the cost was so much more than I could bear
Though I've tried, I've fallen...
I have sunk so low
I have messed up
Better I should know
So don't come round here
And tell me I told you so...
We all begin with good intent
Love was raw and young
We believed that we could change ourselves
THe past could be undone
But we carry on our backs the burden
Time always reveals
The lonely light of morning
The wound that would not heal
It's the bitter taste of losing everything
That I have held so dear.
I've fallen...
I have sunk so low
I have messed up
Better I should know
So don't come round here
And tell me I told you so...
Heaven bent to take my hand
Nowhere left to turn
I'm lost to those I thought were friends
To everyone I know
Oh they turned their heads embarassed
Pretend that they don't see
But it's one missed step
You'll slip before you know it
And there doesn't seem a way to be redeemed
Though I've tried, I've fallen...
I have sunk so low
I have messed up
Better I should know
So don't come round here
And tell me I told you so...
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so, I've read a lot of these posts and find one thing that is mostly the same. People argue out of ignorance. Lots of pop-historians that watched the History channel once and now start basing entire bliefs on inacurate informaiton.
Christianity is not a religion of idiots, it is historically acurate and has lasted intacked for thousands of years, not because of blind faith, but because if you have the guts to look a little deeper into it, things do all add up.
So if any of you feel like arguing their points at least from a learned positon try looking just one step deeper into the whole thing. a good starting point, simple and easy, is http://www.equip.org/ answers about all kinds of topics that have been thought out and might give more insite. -
Isn't that spoiler information?
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Such a breath of fresh air at AICN. You all have very interesting viewpoints and the near civility of these talkbacks is almost heartwarming.:) I decided to read the Bible, instead of talking out my ass about it. From beginning to end. The contradictions that I was lead to believe exist really aren't there. It comes down to the concept of free will. In many ways, the Bible is the struggle of God to reach out to man as man constantly and often deliberately rejects him. There is a truth to that that I have not found inherent in any other religion or mythology. There are some mythological similarities, but that aspect is unique.
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I take issue with the notion that the relationship between God and man in Judeo-Christian belief is one of master and servant. Let me give you my perspective. Defining God is not a thing to be done in Jewish faith. God is beyond what man can conceive, so when you read that there was nothing before God, that concept is open to interpretation. God can be seen not as a conscious being, but as the event that spawned all that we know as creation. The creation comes out of God, but without knowledge of what God encompasses, this could mean that the Biblical
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Most of the instances of
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Back to GreyELF yet again (sorry, man), it sounds like your mom had some serious problems, which is usually what it takes to gravitate toward such an extreme organization. It may be the JW (which comes way to close to spelling
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As of recent developments, the Catholic Church gives the following as it's teachings: The Jews are not responsible, as a race, for Jesus's death. Evolution has been shown to be fact, and all scientific cosmology leading up to the moment of the Big Bang is acceptable for Catholics to study and believe. Catholics may disagree with Church doctrine provided they do so in private, and do not attempt to teach it to others. All other Christian Churches are considered to be ways to salvation and Jesus Christ. the Church has it as it's position, simply that it has means of taking care of it's parisioners that other denominations lack. The Church will accept any Baptism from any other church provided it was done in the Trinitarian Formula: "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Mortal sin (that is, sin that is damning and in need of confession), according to the Catechism "is sin whose object is a grave matter and which is also commited with full knowledge and Deliberate consent." In other words, you broke one of the ten commandments, you made a personal, voluntary choice to do so, knowing it was a sin. short of this, the sin is a venial sin, one you can ask God directly for forgiveness for. The above quotation is from the Catechism, the basic book of Catholic teachings It also says that people must obey the dictates of their conscience and that Wars cannot be wars of agression, and that the ensuing chaos cause by it should not exceed the chaos it was meant to prevent.
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from the way this trailer was cut, I expected the last tag line to be "Awesome." I hope the film itself isn't quite so conventional. I'm willing to give Mel his politics on this movie, but as a passion story, this thing is gonna have to bust its ass to stand at least shoulder height with Dreyer's "Passion of Joan of Arc."
and Dreyer wasn't mad at anybody. -
If Mel Gibson wanted to make a genuinely accurate film of the life of Jesus, he would've had Jesus look like the image in the following link, rather than the completely inaccurate, stylized version of Renaissance artists: http://popularmechanics.com/science/research/2002/12/real_face_jesus/ -- I wonder how much controversy it would've caused if Jesus (in the film) actually LOOKED like a Jewish man from the first century, rather than the completely inaccurate depictions of him in European art from the 1500-1600s.
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Okay, I lie, but some of the people on this Talkback are trying to convert from your PCs, one way or another. Shouldn't conversion to or from a faith be a personal journey, one that really isn't going to come from an AICN Talkback reader clicking on a page, reading a paragraph and finding 'salvation'? I dunno, I get this stuff from a guy near me at work most days, and all it does is push me away from religion, much like when my Mum used to pressure me to do my homework. Wound up being the LAST thing I'd be doing that day... ...let people make their own spiritual journeys through their own experiences - preaching on a website isn't going to convert anyone *cough-obscure reference-cough*. Merry Xmas to all, and to all a good night...
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well, you complained I always go into a forum saying ROTK is gonna own. I didn't this time, though it was tempting. I decided to add some "intellegent" posts.
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before she was a jw, she was into drugs an shit. she became a jw because she finally found a place to belong. but, the problem I have with that is, she shouldn't need to put all this faith within a god that probably doesn't exist. I wish she could have found her OWN strength to survive, not be co-dependent on all her jw friends. in the end, shes a better person morally, but her views on the world are EXTREMELY narrowed. in her eyes, the only things that are credible to her are things relating to her religion. also, someone mentioned something about questioning faith, proves that your truly believe in it. I can't agree with that, my mom showed me a verse in the good book that specifically states that you CANNOT question your faith, and NEVER question gods powers or ask him to prove he exists. so questioning the loopholes in your faith is in direct contradiction to what the bible says. anyway, you still haven't addressed one of my other points Marco, the fact that, if I don't serve/believe in god, I'm going to be destroyed,and that theres no point to having free will if only one choice leads to salvation.
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And I read your post about being brought up Jehovah's Witness. Sadly, a lot of my friends are in similar situations. I find that there are usually only two outcomes of an upbringing like this: Either the child continues on in blind faith, not questioning anything, or they completely abandon their religion altogether. I guess the good thing to do is bring up your child, nudging them in that direction, but if they question something, encourage that. Then allow them room to breathe and discover their spirituality by themselves.
p.s.-RotK will indeed own all... (ha, that makes me a hypocrit!) -
...I'd have to know which one it was to reference it in my Torah, GreyELF. Besides the misleading and flawed translations that inexplicably continue to circulate throughout our supposedly educated and modern society (King James, anyone?), anyone following the Bible should be aware that it is impossible to definitively state as relative fact pretty much anything stated in the book. Or, to make my point clearer, "t s mpssbl t dfntvl stt s rltv fct prtty mch nythng sttd n th bk." You see, Hebrew was and to some extent still is a dead language. Once the language and writings of same were discovered, they had to be deciphered as best as humanly possible. Even taking that into account, ancient Hebrews wrote their words without their vowels, meaning any translation is going to be a hotly debated and commitee-approved best guess based on what is known about a language no one living spoke using context clues. Point being, even if their is a translation of the Bible proscribing the specific commandment you mention, I'll bet I can find another that disputes the claim. Now, about that free will argument, I thought I had covered that. Each individual can come to their own agreement with the Judeo/Christian/Islamic force we acknowldege as our Lord (a misnomer, as God does not possess a sex). Each individual also has the option of making arrangements with other deities (Vishnu, Ahura Mazda, or whoever) based on their terms. Then there's the decision to avoid aligning oneself with one faith, either by embracing multiplicity, agnosticism, or atheism. No matter what you believe in, you take the chance of being wrong, because there are no certainties when speaking metaphysically. As a pragmatic Jew, my feeling is their is no conscious afterlife, so I've made a measure of peace with my belief that my existence will be snuffed out within the next seventy-five or so years. I try to be a good boy, out of my own desire, and expect some compensation for that if there is more than corporeal life ahead. If we do life in a world ruled by a vengeful god, I'll still find that I don't believe in Heaven, "but I pray there ain't no Hell." I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell. However, going by Abraham's covenant the God, I should be protected from any eternal damnation bullshit. It's clearly stated in the Bible that there are other deities, after all, but I've still fulfilled the Biblical commandment to only worship The One (as opposed to a trinity). I figure that helps my odds.
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Feel free to follow your own advice and keep your own damn beliefs to yourself.
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Foolishness for the Gentile and a stumbling block for the Jew.
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Dec 10, 2003 1:13:26 PM CST
Is this the same Jesus film that supposedly has Optimus Prime an
by dickhead
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