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Big ol Soundtrack Review to RETURN OF THE KING with score samples... online!
Hey folks, Harry here... Personally, I can not wait for that day... some years from now when they release that gargantuan set with all 10 hours or so of music that Howard Shore has composed, conducted and placed on those 9 CDs -- Each one with a face of a member of the Fellowship, and then... then we can sit back and hear from beginning to end the musical magic of THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Then, you can sit in that big ol stuffed leather chair of yours next to the fire... a glass of brandy in the snifter and your pipe, stuffed with the stuff you like and then... 10 hours of music. You may sit there and blow smoke rings, fill the snifter with the smoke and inhale the fumes of the brandy tinged with plumes of smoke, then a sip.... For hours, this meditative musical journey will continue, until you sleep and dream of hobbit holes and elven clothes... battles and songs... monsters and maidens... Howard Shore has created a musical epic to join a cinematic one. For your first listen to pieces of the final film... Click below... SOUNDTRACK.NET has again secured the treat for us all!
Soundtrack.Net's Review and Samples of Howard Shore's RETURN OF THE KING music!
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It was hilarious to see your dipshit 12 year old asses kicked in Jay and Bob Strike Back. Aaaanyway just heard all the clips.... what a piece of work! Sounds like this could be the greatest soundtrack of the three... not sure about what Annie Lennox song though...
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Nov 09, 2003 3:52:20 AM CST
My pipe will be stuffed with crack, baby. I'm not so sure about
by johnnybluejeans
What will YOUR pipe be stuffed with? Discuss!
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goddamnit, harry, are we baking cookies or kicking back with some booze? sifters are for flour; snifters are for brandy.
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Smash the entire score(all three COMPLETE scores) into Mp3's and drive across this massive country of ours. That would be fucking perfect.I hope we see a day when we can go out and buy every little bit of music from LOTR.It would make spending ten hours on the road seem like minutes.
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the FoTR soundtrack is so melancholy and haunting (in a good way). I cant wait for RotK ST. especially the music tht plays in the trailer. PRETTY!
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The release of the soundtrack is, for me, the beginning of the steep slope that leads to December 17th. It also seems to herald the no Saruman in ROTK geek bitch-fest...
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Since it's all "one movie". Yeah, thanks Academy...
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Nov 09, 2003 5:15:55 AM CST
Where are the comments from Peter Jacksson and New Line to this
by the swede
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imagine, after return of the king is over fade to black and BAM "EPIC" by 'faith no more' starts to play. "YOU WANT IT ALL BUT YOU CANT HAVE IT" that song was custom made for these movies.
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I think it
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Howard Shore is doing a great job. Enough said
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imagine, after return of the king is over fade to black and BAM "BODIES" by 'drowning pool' starts to play. "LET THA BODIES HIT THA FLOOR! LET THA BODIES HIT THAT FLOOR" that song was custom made for these movies.
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Nov 09, 2003 6:56:58 AM CST
Right now my pipe is stuffed and ready as I listen to these 'pri
by theginger twit
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After all Elvis is the Kig. h
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Hey man, I was just listening to that tune, when I noticed your comment! It's funny. :) Yeah, imagine the massive orc army all headbanging to this piece. Wow, that would make me think about watching this flick in cinema.
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Nov 09, 2003 8:21:47 AM CST
How cool is track 1,2,&3. I love it when sequels take an edgy tu
by theginger twit
I'm suck a film music geek. Moreso than film geek.
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The site must be getting mondo-hits as I can't get in. I want my RoTK soundtrack now...WAAAHHHH!!!
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All the soundtrack clips can be downloaded from warofthering.net in a zipped file. They sound pretty great, the best soundtrack of the three IMO.
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I don't care how good the music is. How can they remove Saruman's scene from the movie?? It's one of the best in the book. Oh, of course, I forgot that Tolkien was just an "amateur" writer. Yeah, I guess PJ, Fran and Phillipa really are just improving his amateurish work. Thanks, guys! We're lucky that you have the talent to fix Tolkien's mistakes. A bit like America, which thinks it can "fix" countries it doesn't like by bombing them into oblivion and taking their natural resources. Welcome to fucking Burgerland. Maybe we'll get the Saaruman scene with our Happy Meals.
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Nov 09, 2003 10:42:22 AM CST
I know that altruism is a dying thing in AICN talkbacks.....
by antmanx68
.....but, perhaps someone made have saved the files and could post them/provide some sort of link?
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You are the poster boy for everything that is wrong with this world today, one huge victim of everything thats happening around you, you poor little bitch.
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But then again I'm content to wait until the soundtrack is released on CD so I can listen to it properly on my home stereo rather than through the tiny speakers contained within this here notebook computator. ***Meanwhile I see that Xoanon deemed my "Secret Shire Party scene" tidbit of being newsworthy enough to post. It's always a kick when that happens. ***Finally, if I were to start a Saruman's fate petition for LotR:RotK, mine would read: "SARUMAN LIVES! -- Sharkey Dies!!!"
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Give it a rest.. The movie has already been scored. Your little scene with Saruman will not be in the theatrical release. Watch the movie first and then you die harders can tell us how much you all hate it.
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I listened to it last night -- You'll love it. Track 1 is perfect.
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I probably shouldnt tell everyone this-- but theonering.net has mirrored clips on their site. There is no wait time. Hurry and listen before everyone gets there.
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Cutting Saruman from RotK may very well be the worst decision in the history of film. There will absolutely no resolution to the Saruman subplot built up in FotR and TTT. The audience is supposed to "assume". That is a cop-out if ever there was one. Anyone who still thinks PJ is a "genius" after this debacle is nothing more than a LotR apologist. It is funny how Harry can't really comment on this, just make excuses about "editing an epic". Any true fan of the books has to be pissed to hell over this, but since Harry has already kissed so much PJ and New Line ass, he can't let loose like he would otherwise.
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Dr. Death, and Pointy: who do you think you are to tell me what to think? You sound like an arrogant American trying to tell the whole world what to like and how to live. Why don't you just go and carpet-bomb some starving peasants somewhere - if there are any left. This decision to remove Saruman is the worst decision in movie-making history. The success of these movies has gone to PJ's head and he now thinks he can throw caution to the wind and "re-write" the work of Tolkien - who he now considers to be an "amateur" writer. Fuck PJ and Fuck America.
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Nov 09, 2003 1:51:09 PM CST
Attention Talk Back folks: PLease don't confuse this poster "sky
by morgoth
Here's a test: So, skywaymoaters, what is the source for your posting name? **
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You managed to attack America in a forum for the RotK soundtrack. Thats great. Go back to your little bitch anarchist forums, you pussy, you obviously have ulterior motives. PJ delivered beyond what anyone could hope for, and all you bashing motherfuckers know it. I'm so sure dickheads like skywaymoaters will be locked in their 3x5 apartments reading Tolkien while the rest of us are enjoying RotK.
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I already like the Annie Lennox closing tune (OK, I admit I'm biased as I've always loved her voice.). Everything sounds wonderful and really leaves me wishing Nov. 25th were already here. I agree Miami, one teaser listening is enough as now I want to hear it all on a BIG system with great sound. I agree with CHEWBLACCA about Felowship and Two Towers being great on the road. I took a trip down south last weekend and it seemed to shorten the ride. Heh, I don't know if it was a coincidence but about the time the Wizard Duel theme came on, I saw a group of kids running away from a front yard like the Dev-il was chasing them! I'm almost more excited about the score than I am the movie. Aiya!
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Nov 09, 2003 2:57:35 PM CST
My GOD! has anyone seen the commercials for the Video Game?????
by russman
They're fucking awesome!! And you gotta love the Requiem For a Dream music too.
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Listening to these clips once again proves the Acadamy's irrelevance. This brilliant work seems substantially different from the music that has come before it, and as a big score fan definitely one of the best of the year. Disallowing it to be nominated because it contains some of the same themes as the other films is asinine. But on to the score: Looks like the cat's finally out of the bag about the film's opening. I predicted it months ago: Smeagol and Deagol, baby. Love the new readings of the Sauron and Ringwraith themes-- vastly different, quicker and more immediate. Anyone recognize the theme that played in Lothlorien when Boromir told Aragorn about "the White City?" I almost gave a "woo hoo" to hear a full heroic reading of that. Major props to Shore for figuring out major themes from the third movie all the way back then-- that's at least two that we heard in Fellowship. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that brooding little "Strider" theme from the Prancing Pony makes an appearance in full orchestral form. Can't wait to listen to the whole soundtrack, and can't wait for the full score release!! (My prediction: 10 CDs. 9 of score, and 1 of source music like the Shire partying, Eowyn's dirge, etc.)
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Whom did "Skyway Moaters" and I see in concert recently, and where did that concert take place? [Hint on the first part: He's got a three disc CD coming out Tuesday followed by a 'Live in Barcelona' DVD the next week (the same day as the LotR:T2T SEV).] What are the lyrics to my 'Moaters Motoring Song' aka 'The Ballad of Skyway Moaters' and what song is it based on (read, rip off)? Bonus points: Which tailender urged me to write, then expand the song? ***morGy, I'm actually planning to wait the extra week and get the deluxe soundtrack with the extra DVD included -- it's got a five or so minute preview of LotR:RotK plus a twenty minute Howard Shore feature. ***Dr. Death [How's Goldie?]: Thanks for the mini-review. I look forward to hearing it. ***CHEWBLACCA: MP3? The six disc CD changer in my motor vehicle works fine, thanks. But you and morGoth are definitely right about it being perfect road trip music. Last year at this time I cruised to Orlando to see the expanded LotR:FotR on TI's DSP digital projection system while listening to the LotR:FotR soundtrack (it was two weeks before the T2T soundtrack came out, or that would have come along for the ride as well), and it sure seemed to have shortened the trip.
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...his ignorance leaves me speechless. Even moreso than these beautiful clips.
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...............why is the "sweet dreams are made of this" chick yelling at me? I like these movies, I really do, no need to yell. It sounds like the cord to the microphone was not long enough and they told her "Ok, Anne, now you'll have to SCREAM for the machine to record this"........
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the reorchestrated piece from "requiem" was never used in the movie, three_oranges; only in the trailer. *plus* it was used with the blessing of clint mansell. i can't think of any part of the real "two towers" score that sounds anything like it. when it comes down to it, i would much rather give the composer all the time he needs and hear temp music in a theatrical trailer, rather than rush the composer to have something ready by the trailer release.
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That remix is pretty nice, though. If they ever end up releasing all the material Shore recorded (if he really did record 10 hours' worth of material), they should include that overture as a bonus track.
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but shouldn't there be some mention somewhere about the LotR online petition to get New Line to show the Full Trilogy in more theaters? Go here to sign up, let your friends and feloow deprived geek know: http://www.petitiononline.com/116379qm/petition.html
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Nov 09, 2003 9:29:53 PM CST
Skywaymoaters: "American Nazi bullshit. Who do you think you ar
by commando cody
Who are we? We're Americans which makes us the fucking coolest country and people on the face of the planet and that makes you our bitch. So now that you've been reminded of your place, shut up with your lunatic, pointless ranting so the rest of us can talk about enjoying ROTK. Though this business about PJ reworking the Tolkein ending has me a bit puzzled, so I guess come Decemeber 17th we'll have something red hot to debate.
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I think I'd rather watch lovette double fuck, than save your crappy third world country from starvation. yeah, thats right, if it came down to, Save skyway's country from nuclear attack, or watch lovette double fuck, I'd choose Lovette, and jack off to the destruction of your shitty country, where ever the hell your from. Lovette has big juicy tits, and you probably do not, so I choose her!
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There's nothing I love more than trollers trying to out-troll each other. If only the world could blow up and save us from the parody on such momentous occassions.
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if it's not on this cd, it's readily available on most fileshare programs. there's a version that was hosted at warofthering.net, re-edited and arranged using Acid 3.0. There's another version, similar but better, was hosted at operationsombrero.com. The first is usually referred to as "requiem remix" the second is usually found under "The Two Towers - Requiem Overture" to make this totally spamtastic, the second was re-edited and re-arranged by me. it might also still be up at tfnsucks.freespeechsite.com. I would hope it'd get released as a bonus track eventually, I'd like to hear the REAL orchestral arrangement, but until then, chances are either of those two versions are the best you're going to get. the first, done in Acid 3.0, has some gothic wailing over the introduction, and war and drum noises. the Second is more straightforward. Go forth and download--because for some strange reason it's not available anywhere yet.
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They actually "borrowed" this song from the soundtrack of Requiem for a Dream, which is actually a kick ass movie in it's own reguards. It was arranged by Clint Mansell, performed by the Kronos Quartet. If you're looking for the "REAL orchestral arrangement", this is it.
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Yes, Flizoid, most people realize that the music used in the trailers was originally written by Clint Mansell and performed by the Kronos Quartet. The version in the trailers was re-arranged and re-orchestrated by someone named Dan Nielsen. There's an article in Ebert's "Movie Answer Man" column (google it, I don't remember the link) that explains the whole situation. The re-orchestration isn't a "rip-off" as Mansell not only approved the more traditional arrangement of his half-electronic half-orchestral original composition, but reported on his own website how much he liked what Nielsen did with it. The re-orchestration was apparently NOT done as a full piece, however. Apparently a couple movements were re-orchestrated for easier editing in the commercials and trailers, and only about 1:20 total was re-done. The two 6 1/2 minute re-edits done by me and the mysterious Acid 3.0 guy, are pieced together from parts of the re-orchestration and Mansell's original soundtrack work.
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Who shares files? That sort of thing is illegal...
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Oh mean I love Track 3-Gondor Theme. Its so sweeping and heroic and just...wow. But 30 sec samples isn't enough to quench my musical thirst. Must have....full....soundtrack!!
Must...have...Return of the King!!!! -
Nov 10, 2003 3:04:30 AM CST
Thanks Fatboy_Roberts for the link to the Reqium Overture. Its s
by gil-galad12
It sounds great!
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"Forth Eorlingas" has got to be the best song so far in the series. Its the song that plays during the suicide ride that Theoden and Aragorn take at the end of Helm's Deep and crescendos into Gandalf and Eomer's flanking charge in front of the rising sun. That section is literally TRANSCENDANT. Its a veritable ephiphany of voice and instrument. If there is anything like that on the ROTK soundtrack, its worth buying.
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Save my crappy country? SAVE MY CRAPPY COUNTRY? My country is America, you Goddamn morons, that's right, the country that has gone down the toilet. Believe me, I don't live there anymore. The only thing that can save America now is to have the shit bombed out of it so we can start afresh. I hope you're proud of yourselves. Bin Laden had the right idea. September 11 was a strike for world freedom. I hope you all burn in hell.
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Nov 10, 2003 6:36:25 AM CST
"The only thing that can save America now is to have the shit bo
by big dumb ape
Skywaymoater, speaking as someone who could've lost his father on Sept. 11 but for a fluke of fate that kept him from the building that morning (where he was supposed to be in a meeting at the time the planes struck) you should feel free at any time to flush yourself down the toilet like the piece of shit you are for actually making such a truly FUCKED UP statement in public. What sort of deranged psychopath are you to be a citizen of this country and actually put up that last post? Dude, you are SERIOUSLY one messed up asshole. Now, world politics and morons like Skymoater aside, I have to say I can't wait to grab this soundtrack. Speaking of which, is anyone else here a movie soundtrack geek who loves to work on the computer to them? Maybe it's just me, but while I love lots of music, I find I always do my best writing playing a soundtrack -- not rock or anything else -- in the background. As for the movie, count me in for opening day. I've been building in enthusiasm over each movie -- that is, I guess unlike most people, I actually wasn't too crazy about FOTR (I found it slow), but I loved TTT and thought it kicked serious ass. And from what I've seen so far, ROTK has me totally jazzed as being a truly mindblowing finale. I think it'll be the one Christmas movie that actually delivers the goods all movie fans expect -- scope, scale, spectacle and emotions. Oh, and someone above mentioned the commercials for the video game, and while I don't know how good it is on the other platforms (I assume it ported out fairly comparably) the X-Box version of ROTK rocks big time! After the success of STAR WARS: KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBIC, I'll be curious to see how the upcoming LOTR role playing game is, too. Hopefully the designers are going to come through with a totally mindblowing game. They should -- after all, they certainly have a fully realized "background universe" to construct it around.
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Nov 10, 2003 7:58:21 AM CST
BigDumbApe, "What sort of deranged psychopath are you to be a ci
by raw_bean
What sort of deranged psychopath do you have to be to aome from ANY country and post something like that. This pretend 'skywaymoaters' is an odious little wretch (and nothing at all like Skyway Moaters) and is not worth getting upset about, he's just here making his pathetic attempts to annoy people for no good reason. Note, I did not say his attempts were unsuccesful, but they are undeniably pathetic. What a miserable existence he must lead, that this is how he gets his kicks; we should feel sorry for him.
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Nov 10, 2003 9:08:09 AM CST
Since this is a soundtrack TB, and I feel like singing, here, fo
by miami mofo
The Ballad of Skyway Moaters aka Moaters Motoring Song [Which was written in honor of all the bitch-slaps Moaters laid on anyone using the dreaded *T* word, and is sung to Chuck Berry's 'With No Particular Place To Go']: Riding along in his automobile; It's Skyway Moaters behind the wheel. Checking out bookstores left and right; There won't be a *trilogy* sign left in sight. But with so many bookstores left to go; This goddamned traffic's moving way to slow. / Up ahead there, what does he see? A *trilogy* sign for P.J.'s movie. The owner protests that it's not for the book; But Moaters just gives him a dirty look. Then he shrugs his shoulders and says, "What the heck." And proceeds to rip off his head and shit down his neck. ***To the fake 'skywaymoaters': now you know what fate awaits you should the real 'Skyway Moaters' ever get his hands on you. ***I woke up at 3:15 this morning, turned on the tube and there was E's Coming Attractions showing the LotR:RotK trailer. Sweet.
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Here we go again. First however, (some of us DO play by the rules): Major kudos to Howard Shore once again. If FOTR & T2T are any indication, the ROTK score will be brilliant and worthy of inclusion in any discerning collection. *** Now for the disclaimer: Some coward bustard has 'hijacked' the Skyway Moaters handle and has used it to spew pedophilic garbage in an apparent attempt to discredit and slander yours truly. I'm sure this is obvious to those with whom I have held discourse over the past 4 or so years as said post(s) are completely out of character. For those of you who don't know Skyway from Ugluk: TRUBBA NOT. It is not I posting this perverse, despicable, effluent. Notice the difference between the IDs: mine: "Skyway Moaters", and theirs: "skywaymoaters". My associated e-mail address: "skywaymoaters@yahoo.com", and theirs: skywaymoater@yahoo.com. *** Not very clevver there, you cowardly stinking cow flop. HELLO: context sensitivity? One of the hallmarks of software literality? Inject this into your fetid mind you neolithic dipshit: The Web is not nearly as anonymous as you apparently think it is...
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the Annie Lennox song SUCKS! I usually don't mind her, but she is ALL WRONG to be singing about the ships going west. Bleargh, it's worse than the Byork-sings-a-James-Bond ballad (Gollum's song) - this is nothing more than a blatant stab at getting the Oscar for best song. OTOH the other clips sound pretty decent - except for the pipe/recorder one that sounds like a cheap Casio effect. Howard Shore is great when he's not pandering.
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Nov 10, 2003 11:34:52 AM CST
Matt Barry's little remark in the Ash&Smoke track description ha
by sheeld
Has the scene where Sam rescues Frodo from a tower full of orcs been omitted enturely from the film? Dear God I hope not, that is my favorite part of the entire trilogy! (Combined with Shelob's Lair of course.) I can't imagine they omitted this, since they included Shelob in ROTK because they were short of Frodo/Sam action to begin with. Still, it does seem like a scene that would be omitted if needed.. Anyone know more about this?!
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Freakin' "AI" which couldn't be nearly as popular a score, got released on DVD-Audio. The LOTR scores would be great in higher resolution sound and multi-channel.
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...all I know is that there IS a short bit of what definetly looks like Sam running up some outside staircase going up into a tower. It looks like it's in Mordor and I think it's Sam, after getting past the Watchers, going up into Cirith Ungol. This can be seen on the Two Towers DVD RoTK preview. Of course, we've had stuff show up in trailers and previews that DIDN'T show up in the theatrical releases of Fellowship and Two Towers (from what I've heard). So, I think the Cirith Ungol scene will be included one way or another.
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Nov 10, 2003 12:20:03 PM CST
Yes folks, that is the REAL Skyway Moaters we all know...andfear
by morgoth
Just messin' wif ya big guy!
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I'm sorry, so very, very sorry that your dumb-ass father wasn't in the towers. He should have gone down in flames with the rest of them. That's right, he should be BURNING IN HELL right now. Oh boo-hoo, now you're getting all upset. WELL THEN KEEP YOUR FUCKING PERSONAL LIFE OUT OF THESE TALKBACKS IF YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE HEAT. Or if you really have to, tell us your home address and I'll go and burn your house down so your Dad can meet the fate he deserved on Sep 11. Deal? And if anyone doesn't like what I say, they'd better keep a civil tongue in their heads: I am an IT expert and will track you down and bring you a whole world of PAIN. So when you talk back at me, keep it polite and keep in NICE. Or I'll burn you fucking weasels one by one.
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Ol' Skyway will be back tomorrow. And the day after that. And the day after that...
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Just confirmed form one of my spies that the scouring of the shire will be filmed as part of a very special LOTR Christmas Special!! It will star Hulk Hogan as Bill Ferny (I'm gonna steal the Hobbitses Christmas, brother), the reanimated corpse of John Candy as Gandalf and a special guest appearance by Rowan Atkinson as BowGuy. Heavy spoilers ahead.... It turns out that the Hall of Mandos is the North Pole!!! And the elves we know today are descendents of a mix between hobbits and elves. The elves teach the hobbits how to make toys and the hobbits teach the elves how to be cute and short. And get this!! Gandalf is Santa Claus!! No word yet on who Mrs. Claus is. I'll keep you posted.
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Note to everyone who posts here. Don't even give this guy skywaymoaters the time of day. Don't get angry at his immeasurably stupid remarks. He's just trying to provoke people because he wants to call attention to his very sad existence. Instead, pity him. Think about how crappy his life must be that he has to resort to posting on message boards to get some other kind of human interaction besides the pizza guy. Its okay skywaymoaters, life will get better. Hang in there...
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I THINK THE TALK BACK WAS ABOUT THE MUSIC....BUT GOT WAY OFF BASE.
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I have to agree with that guy. Um, actually of all the songs, thats the only one I didn't wholeheartedly love. The music is great and the lyrics are great, its just that when I heard it it sounded like the singer's voice was a little harsh, and I don't know, just didn't fit. Oh well, the soundtrack is still amazing, dont get me wrong.
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... ban this excrement - "skywaymoaters", NOT: "Skyway Moaters". *** "Blatant abuse, personal attacks, OFF-TOPIC BS, cross-posting, blatant advertising, and hate speech are all fodder for deletion. In other words, being a jerkwad loser will get you banned". *** A better example I've never seen. Is anybody fooled by this loser imposter?
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Nov 10, 2003 5:05:45 PM CST
Thanks morG, Pontsing, but don't waste anymore time...
by skyway moaters
... on this creep. I don't care about it anymore. We've all expended entirely too much time and energy on the fool as it is. In fact let's not any of aknowledge any further posts by "skywaymoaters". What if my handle becomes useless in the process, or banned? Who cares. It's just a stupid Talk Back anyway. Nothing of any real consequence. Maybe if we all ignore this pitiful fool, and stop feeding his hunger for attention he'll go just away? I can't fathom what else he could be getting out of it at this point as the attempt at character assasintion has failed utterly...
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Nov 10, 2003 5:29:01 PM CST
What song will they play during the Minas Tirith rave scene???!?
by worstpoochieever
honestly.
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Nov 10, 2003 8:06:14 PM CST
I like how Harry left it up to us, what will be in the pipe.....
by magyarman
it's little touches like that that make AICN great :)
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Nov 10, 2003 8:07:44 PM CST
no Saruman = no fucking problem!!! seriously, stop worrying and
by magyarman
I don't see what the big fuss is....this movie's gonna rock ass.
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...I'm with ignoring the lout. I-I-I-it seemed OK earlier. Oh well, back to the other one. Man, what is up with this site? Harry, it's Monday already. Yeah, come on here and troll that crap (wonder if it's one of Harry's staff?) but post off topic ONE time and WHOOSH! BANNED (shudder)!! ** I think I'll go listen to Howard's marvelous little songs and pine for the 25th. Eglerio Howard Shore!
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I can only hope that the dialogue in this link bears NO relationship to the actual events in the film, particularly prior to Shelob. If it does, it makes me sick, for reasons that will be self-evident to any fan of Tolkien's work: http://www.theonering.net/staticnews/1068502090.html
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Are you talking about the first segment of dialogue? It sounds like it was lifted from a Harry Potter book, i.e. Voldemort dissing his own Worm-. (of course it wasn't actually stolen from J. K. Rowling, it's just crappy dialogue). But do we know these snippets are based on actual footage from the movie?
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Who knew this talkback would attract such a pain in the ass? Moaters, I just wanted to say I'm sorry you have to endure this indignity. It infuriates me, it's a damn shame. Because I want people to know you are NOT AT ALL LIKE THIS "PERSON"!! You're a stand-up guy who's always been nothing, if not fair and considerate, and they (the wanker) are wretched trash NOT FIT FOR HUMAN COMPANY! It is taking every ounce of self- control I possess to hold back the anger coursing through me at this moment. Yeah, I know. Ignore it. But, this is just ri-goddamn-diculous!! And I hope this pus-infected troll gets attention, the kind that makes them uncomfortable for a very long time....
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... but it's the dialogue and actions described relative to Shelob that really upset me! Frodo: "No...It's you, Sam. You can't help me anymore. I'm sorry, Sam. Go home.
Sam: "But...Gollum's a liar...he's poisened you against me.
Frodo: "Go home!" Sam leaves the screen while Frodo and Gollum continue on. (And then Frodo stumbling across Shelob on his own, and running out of the cave looking for Sam!) PLEASE let this travesty exist only on the video game! Frodo telling Sam to "Go home!"???????? On the brink of Mordor? -
If it's meant to be included, maybe it'll work better (or at least work differently) in context. Seems kind of like a contrived and really lame way of taking Sam "out of the picture," but who knows? The world won't end either way, although I was hoping this movie would amend some of my feelings towards the last one. At least the score's good. Oh yeah, and does anybody know where I can sign up to get my Ribbons doppleganger?
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I've come to the realization that I love skywaymoaters, hes as fucking funny as I used to be, flame on skyway, flame on.
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Yes, we still have the soundtracks... and FOTR - but honestly, if the game dialogue bears any similarity to the movie dialogue, I don't know how Jackson can think he is any longer being true to the spirit of the novel. Not when he (and the other screenwriters) lift sections of one of the book's most heartfelt (and important) scenes - the scene at the top of the Stairs and before Shelob - and water it down for the end of TTT, and then proceed to entirely replace said scene and all its tenderness and hopeless courage with hostility and rejection. IF (and I say IF) this dialogue is accurate, we have no "pawing at Master" before Sam so fatally misinterprets Gollum's motives (this critical and powerful moment having been replaced by the much weaker events in the film TTT). More critically, we no longer have two brave hobbits facing the terrifying darkness and stench shoulder to shoulder (even if they were going to leave out the clasped hands), Frodo's courage in pulling Sam to his feet and turning to deliberately face Shelob with the Phial, etc. And now that we know the calendar photo is not post-Shelob but Mt. Doom, I'm not sure how much we have left of what many of us consider one of the most brilliant passages in a very long and brilliant book. (Oh, yes, then there's Sam simply killing the two orcs to rescue Frodo.) I realize we are all speculating, but I don't like the way the evidence is mounting. For all of you who were hoping to just get a "killer" battle with a really big spider, I don't suppose any of this matters.
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Have you guys watched the past two movies!?!?! Even if you have problems with TTT you have to admit that none of the dialogue has been as vague and general as the bits and pieces that you are all getting worried over. The person who wrote the dialogue attributed to the video game (dialogue which I think is paraphrased!) did not write the dialogue for the movies. Otherwise the ending of FOTR would be as follows: FRODO: I'm going to Mordor. SAM: Me too. FRODO: Okay, let's go. (They go). And Daughter of Time you say that the Gollum's pawing at Frodo has been replaced by "the much weaker events in the film TTT." Well I don't see any evidence of that. They merely moved Sam's discussion of songs and tales on the stairs of Cirith Ungol to the fields of Ithilien, but the progression of Gollum's character leads directly to the pawing scene that you lament being discarded. To have the discussion of songs and tales AND the pawing scene in one setting would be two long and it was wise to move the dialogue around. I for one don't think Jackson never came across the fact that Tolkien considered Sam's accusation against Gollum at that moment to be the most tragic moment in all of LOTR. I'd give him a little more credit.
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Would George Lucas cut Christoperh Lee or Ian Ian McDiarmid out of EP3? No FUCKING way.
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Note to PJ: you will be forgiven if all the male hotties in the film go skinny dipping together in an extended, manly sort of frolic. Perhaps several such frolics. Shit, you put Arwen in a transparent dress with no underwear and then had her sporting cleavage at Aragorn's grave -- you owe us some male skin. Dirty topless hobbits don't count, either.
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...is from the GAME BOY ADVANCE version of the ROTK game. you realize that, right? i would wager that most scenes and lines from the movie would be greatly truncated for it, 32-bit or no.
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Oh, yes. Would be nice. He seems to be the only one who doesn't know that there are 50%+ females on this planet. Maybe cause he's not in Hollywood, so he didn't get it yet.
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I think the problem is that -- either because they thought it was in the audience's best interests or they perceived it too difficult to iron out -- the relationship between Frodo, Sam, and Gollum is far less ambiguous than it was in the story its being drawn from. The relationship is still an admirably complex one, but Sam basically thinks that Gollum poisoned his water if he looks at him while he's drinking. Frodo, either because he's frustrated at Sam's treatment of Gollum, protective of Sam's health and spirits (which, unlike Frodo's has yet to dwindle), or in search of an easy write-out, (possibly) tells him to get lost. Maybe it was to make the scenes following it easier to write by creating drama. Maybe it was just to get Frodo alone in the dark. I don't know. All I know is, like it or not, this is the definitive Lord of the Rings adaptation of any of our lifetimes, so you might as well resign yourself to it. The dialogue may be better than its X-Box counterpart, and the scene may play out differently as well, but if not, well, it's a cryin' shame. Movie still might be pretty good, all things considered, and I'm sure they wouldn't disshonor Tolkien unless they were serving some objective in the process.
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"Basically there is stuff in this game that you WON'T be seeing in ROTK!" I hope that reassures everyone. ***To our Veterans on Veteran's Day: Thank you.
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Nov 11, 2003 8:13:08 AM CST
"All I know is, like it or not, this is the definitive Lord of t
by raw_bean
Resign yourself?! Good lord, am I the only one still looking forward to this film with a fervour that borders on the religious? Or even looking forward to it at all.
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There's plenty of horrendous dialog in there, all of it voiced by the actor's themselves. Some of the lines were transposed directly from the scirpt (and when it was directly from the book, so much the better.) But many of the lines were in cringe-worthy pseudo-Tolkien. Also, if you think Frodo's heroism was degraded in the movies, don't go anywhere near the game, as pretty much all he does is cry out for people to help him. They're merely hack-n-slash games (albeit very accomplished hack'n'slashers.) But I doubt that that dialog is in the movie. At least, I sincerely hope it isn't. I get a feeling a lot of people are going to show up on Trilogy Tuesday wearing "Where's Saruman?" T-shirts...
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Some of that dialogue is from the book, and some of it is obviously either abridged or fabricated fo the movie. --- Cheers, c_of_b. Observe my smile, :)
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Shut the fuck up already!! Peter Jackson already ADMITTED that the theatricl versions of these films are NOT the real versions, he stated that the EXTENDED editions are his true vision, and that for pacing and time restraints, he just can't release the extendeds mainstream, like the normal cut versions, SO, just wait for the extended rotk, go see the theatrical one despite all your bitchin like you know you will, and once again, shut the fuck up! well, now to go to work.
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Nov 11, 2003 10:42:07 AM CST
Well, hell, looks like I've got 3 TB's and a month's worth of re
by pallando blue
Criminy! With all this blather I missed out on the past 4 days, how am I supposed to have time to get poor Jake through The Mansion? Worse, I don't think Eddie carved the key just right! And the DEMON'S COMING FOR SUSANNAH...!!! *** Hmm? Oh! Sorry! BACK ON TOPIC. My One Last Act Of Willpower: I am NOT going to buy/listen to the ROTK soundtrack until after I've seen the movie. THAT much I can handle, or better. Of course, never said nothing about not hearing these 30-second clips.... And they are amazing. They make me weak. Holy good gracious what are we in for. I agree with d.o.t. that the Lennox clip may sound more pop than the other credits tracks, but I won't make that call until I hear the whole thing. I have faith in Shore, man. *** After a quick skim of the subject lines, I wonder. Miami Mofo, think I should drag out the 5 (or 6, or 7) Stages Of LOTR Adaptation Grief once again? Some good folx seem in need of therapy, and I'm all about the layin' on of hands. ;) [spurts lotion into palm] Who's up? *** Also Mofo, I will drink to the Canes, if you will drink to the Hokies. What a dark, dark weekend. At least you still have a crack at winning the BE. Good luck!
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NO, GL would not take out ian or christopher in a sw movie. he would instead, insert a HORRIBLE cgi band in the jabbas palace scene, he would insert jabba into ep 4. greedo would shoot first,AND he would kill count dooku in the first fight scene. opps, spoiler. not to mention ewoks killing storm troopers. ugh....
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Nov 11, 2003 10:47:04 AM CST
I wasn't gonna talk back until I read skywaymoater's rantings.
by starwarrior
Should I mention that I was once banned from this site simply for contradicting father Geek's complaints that they were no great filmmakers today? But skymoaters' hate speech seems to go unnoticed here...
As for ROTK, the movie and the soundtrack will RULE. I have listened to the FOTR score over 150 times at work and cannot wait for the third one. -
C-of-B, I'll gladly try to take notes for you, but since Tuesday night in Club Angband means the early hours of wednesday morning for me, don't be surprised if I fall asleep during the proceedings! Just so long as morG promises to wake me up if those Trollettes start up. 'Pasties'? You know how I like my females wearing bakery products! ;)
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Nov 11, 2003 12:15:20 PM CST
I'd gladly join ye in the BWBKJS, o sooty one, if it weren't for
by mortsleam
My faith is rattled. Not gone, but rattled. And not only do I have the pseudo-Tolkien TTT video game, I have the hilariously pathetic pre-movie Fellowship game. Lawdy Miss Clawdy is that some horrific rpg crap. Here's a comparison: in the TTT, you (as Aragorn, Legolas or Gimli) have to kill the Cave Troll. In Fellowship, you (as Frodo) have to...ring the bell to sommon a bounder to ask him where Sam, Merry & Pippin are. (Hint: they're at a pub named after a large reptile.) It's gripping stuff. *** cutest, head over to the Alias TB to partake in some 24 talkin'. Since Hercules has discontinued his 24 spoilers, I've had to do a bit of covert TB hi-jacking. Just make sure you mention Alias somewhere in the post.
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But I see we're back to the "if you have any position other than unqualified praise of PJ's every decision, you're just dragging us down" complaints. Sheesh. That level of delirious approval should be able to stand firm against anything, let alone quibbles about dialogue. There's a saying attributable to many sources (Graham Greene used it, but I doubt if he was the first)that reads variously "God is in the details" or "The devil is in the details." The details matter. The details - of dialogue, or even of gesture - are what make the difference between banality and greatness. Frankly, it makes me despair when people argue that just because a scene has some sentences lifted from another scene, it has the same meaning. It doesn't. Any serious actor or writer knows that you can change the position of one sentence - change the TONE of one sentence - and alter what the artist was saying. (The charming, touching, OPTIMISTIC scene in Ithilien is not the same as the poignant, almost fatalistic scene on the Stairs.) And the screenwriters seem to have lost track of this to the point where any memorable line from Tolkien can now be rearranged at will, given to any character, even put in a context that gives it the REVERSE of its original intention, and just because the line is "in the book" we're not supposed to notice it's a distortion of Tolkien's meaning. Whether or not the game dialogue is a dumbed-down version of what happens in the film, if there's any suggestion that Frodo would tell Sam to "Go home!" before entering the cave, when home is a thousand miles of wilderness and barely-survived dangers away, when they have just seen Minus Morgul unleashed, then the entire character of Frodo has been altered beyond recognition. The Frodo going into the cave is no longer heart-breakingly brave, but insane. Of course I hope that the game-makers have - for some unaccountable reason - merely come up with a travesty of the film's real events.
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Ahh, I love soundtracks, especially LOTR ones. I don't think I've ever actually wanted to BUY a soundtrack and just listen to it through and through. But alas, I've never heard the entire FOTR or TTT soundtracks. :(. Firstly, I'm on a school network which blocks P2P filesharing programs, so no dice. Second, I'm a poor college student who can't shell out the money for them. Sigh. Oh well just some random thoughts. And cutestofborg, cheers to you! There are way too many people nowadays who get the smallest bits of information and go completely nuts over it. (ex. News: Sam doesn't throw his cookware away in Gorgoroth. Fan: Noooo!!This movie is automatically crap. Regardless of the fact I haven't seen it yet! I refuse to see it now). For me, anticipation is slowly coming to a breaking point, where I think I'm going to kidnap Peter Jackson and make him reenact it for me. I'm with the rest of you positive people, because so far, these movies are mindboggling. The sad thing is I don't think I'll ever feel like this about any future movies (maybe the Hobbit in 2032?) because I don't know what else is out there to adapt. (maybe a Super Mario Bros. the Movie Ep. 2? haha just kidding)
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BWBKJS t-shirts are now available in The Club Angband gift shop. ***Drinking, Pallando? I've been drinking ever since I took my Nephew to the Orange Bowl Saturday aft, trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to wash away the memories. What a pathetic excuse for a game that was. At least Derrek will be taking Brock's place from now on.
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* Galadriel did not look like she was getting exterminated by Daleks. * Faramir's warping is OK by me! * Treebeard being turned into a dunce is just dandy. * People opening their eyes really wide all the time to express extreme emotions, what are you talking about?!? * The Ringwraiths didn't say anything at the ford, what is this Dr. Claw shit you're always going on about? * Gimli's character is perfect. * Gimli's makeup is perfect. * Doing the "that was my name" thing 3 or 4 times in TTT wasn't repetitive at all! * The artist chosen to do all the statuary is a fine sculptor. No the bearded statues don't look cheesy, not one bit. * Gollum talking about little candles and lights, and then there being no lights in the Marshes of the Dead - that doesn't bother me one bit. * Taking Frodo to Osgiliath where he showed the ring to a Nazgul was a stroke of pure genius, because then Pippin will have no reason to go to Gondor. Oh wait. * Having Sam almost drown was a stroke of dramatic genius. So was Aragorn going over the cliff. * The Wargs looked really real. * All kewl wizard duels end up with somebody breakdancing, didn't you know that??? +++ sigh, I can't keep this up. seriously, I am super excited about everything coming up (TTT:SE DVD, RotK soundtrack, RotK) in a time when I can't get enough motivation to go see Kill Bill in the theater. I too will have nothing to live for once the RotK:SE DVD is released. I just can't believe the PJ worshippers don't see these huge glaring flaws. I want to know what kind of glue you've been sniffing because I need a Happy Gloss on my reality, too.
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Me "go away"? Go away? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! My poor simple little fools - trubba not: I will be with you for a very long time indeed. Once Skyway Moaters sinks his rotten teeth into your innocent flesh he does not let go - until you cry and squirm and beg for mercy. Oh no, the day will SOON come when you will regret the day I first posted my poison on this site. Bow before me, you fools. Remember: the internet is not as anonymous as you all appear to think! I can screw up your computers in very short order. And I can do worse things. How would some of you like me to hide a couple of thousand kiddie porn pics on your machines and then let your IP addresses circulate in the right quarters? Nice. And all that could have been avoided by some ordinary politeness. So unless I start to hear some pretty fucking sincere apologies, NONE OF YOU are going to emerge from this unscathed. You have twenty-four hours. Trubba not, mellyn pie.
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I have no idea what's going on.
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I can see where you're coming from with your derision of the viewpoint typified in your "Sam didn't throw out his cooking ware...-and the "purists" freak out", but I think that there are a lot of people with valid concerns about this film. They have altered Faramir and, to a lesser extent, Aragorn, amplified Arwen and tinkered with tons of things from the books. Most of us with objections about the movies aren't sweating every little detail, although it makes it easier to respond to our opposing viewpoint if you pretent we do with a little reducto ad absurdum. We're fine with what we feel are reasonable changes: Cutting Bombadil, amplifying Saruman, the possesion of Theoden. But I think that changing Frodo's character to the extent of him telling Sam to go home is pretty significant AND dare I day, unnecessary. Of course, I realize these are speculation and I will not condemn a movie until I've seen it, but I also believe that it is equally asinine to give a movie your whole-hearted approval before you see it, regardless of any precedent you feel has been established. In closing this over-long post, I hope that daughter of times (which I partially share) prove unfounded and that raw_bean, morGoth and cutestofborg's faith proves well-founded. But for the moment, I'm with mortsleam in the "rattled" category.
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need a machine to hide behind & do your fighting eh? wonder why....
fed up getting your head punched in in the real world i guess. -
Last post said, nonsensically, "daughter of time's (which I partially share)". Should've read "daughter of time's FEARS". Sorry.
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I guess my comment would be that every time i have seen a movie thats adapted from a book...its never as good as the book. Hell its usually brutalized in the movie version.
Yet i think that Jackson has stayed remarkably on course. I must say that its extremely enjoyable to read postings that have nothing to do with the topic...its like screaming..LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME..........PLEASE!
sniffle sniffle phhhtttt, scuse me had to blo w my nose -
Nov 11, 2003 4:32:41 PM CST
In other LOTR news, we have a new banner ad on the front page! W
by mortsleam
The problem with some of these missing scenes is, they're just sooo dramatic and sooo theatrical I just can't understand how anybody with a faculty for filmmaking (which PJ most assuredly has) would neglect to put them in. I mean, really, Sam tossing the pots is such a perfect encapsulation of their plight that it could easily be in there INSTEAD of the speeches about stories and heroes. And yet, any fans would have felt cheated if those lines hadn't been in there in SOME form. It's a tough choice.
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...sign me up for BWBKJS! Now let's get together a group of maniacal PJ fanatics and a small portable gallows, then let's round up all the heretics and unbelievers and deal with them in an appropriate manner! 'Our PJ which art in Weta, hallowed be thy movies. Thy trilogy come. Thy will be done in middle earth as it is in Weta. Give us this day our daily Talkback. And forgive us our trolling, as we forgive them that troll against us. And lead us not into the Star Wars TB. But deliver us from Lucas. Amen.'
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in the Ufthak Memorial Bar and Karaoke Lounge tomorrow night. Drinks are on the house (none of the club management have ever shown up down here, so it
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I'll drink to that. RTE it is, until December 17th at least, and may all fears be put to rest then.
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Yeee-ouch, morGoth: putting words in my mouth! The truth isn't that simple I'm afraid - though I know talkbackers prefer their fellows to come in neat "you're with us or against us" packages. I've said this before and here it goes again: I don't care what changes PJ makes - as long as the changes add up to QUALITY material. It's that simple. This means that if PJ decides to make Saruman a drag queen who sings "Mama Mia" by ABBA - and he makes this genuinely cool, moving and cinematic - then I will whole-heartedly accept this change and applaud PJ's ingenuity. So I am potentially MORE of a PJ apologist than even the most die-hard member of the PJ-can-do-no-wrong brigade. It's worth repeating this until fellow TBers get it - because when you have a reputation for "negative" criticisms, you can shout "the sun is shining and life is beautiful!" till you are blue in the face - and people will still call you a nay-sayer. Anyway, on with the show...******* So having said all that, I at last get a chance to comment on this whole Saruman business (I realise this has probably been discussed to death elsewhere - my TB time is limited these days). My first reaction was: Sure, whatever - if it makes ROTK a better movie. And I was relieved that ROTK was being cut down to a more realistic running time (I'm deeply suspicious of movies being strung out unnecessarily - regular TBers may remember that I consider TTT to be about an hour too long). However.....after thinking about this, I remembered that the Voice Of Saruman scene was one of my favorites in the book and seems to be an essential part of the story. Especially so in these movies where, in the absence of a visible Sauron, PJ has considerably beefed up Saruman's profile. So to just have him disappear from view is going to seem twice as odd. Also: how on earth are they going to get the Palantir? Does this mean they'll just have to leave it out altogether? To my mind, that would amount to throwing out an incredibly juicy sub-plot involving Pippin and eventually, Aragorn which has huge "coolness" potential in the context of the movie.....And then I get to thinking: the Voice Of Saruman and the Palantir scenes are quite simply top quality material with huge dramatic possibilities for a movie. If they are thrown out, what "better" material is going to replace them? More shots of CGI marching ants? Endless swordfights that we can't see because the camera cuts away as soon as it gets interesting? Or - worse: some new material that PJ+FW+PB have cooked up that may - or may not - equal the quality of Tolkien's ideas?.....You see my drift? Yes, I know we're going to get all this eventually in the extended DVD version.......ah, yes, the extended DVDs. Hmmmm, you see, I'm beginning to look a little askance at this phenonemon. It's definitely giving Tolkien fans an extra "fix" of what we love - so I can't really complain about that......but isn't it now becoming a case of "fixing" a movie that was released in an unfinished state in the first place - due to an insanely unrealistic release schedule (One mega effects-driven movie per year! Think about it! It takes Lucas, what? two-three years to do same? And he invented the genre!) And in this particular case - aren't the film-makers now using the Extended DVD format to "fix" the problems caused by the new material they interjected? Personally I would rather have seen an extra seven minutes of Christopher Lee in TTT than an hour's worth of sackcloth-wearing extras any day of the week. I'm sure most people would feel the same. Anyway, these are my musings at present. I have not yet seen the TTT SEV and am eager to do so - though I will be disapppointed if it turns out to be true that the writing team have used the words "amateur writer" to describe Tolkien. Sorry: there I draw the line. Tolkien was NOT an amateur writer. Flame me all you like. Of course, I'll have to see the context of them saying this (if they did say it) - but it does seem to damage their credibility. My secret wish-list of extra material on the DVD: (1) MASSIVE Elves Vs Orcs fighting styles that we can see up fairly close at HD. Remember all the promises they made for an entire year about the different fighting styles and how we were going to see the CGI fighters duelling with each other in their respective styles? This had me DROOLING at the mouth. I was SO disappointed when none of it made it to the final cut. I'm praying they managed to get the software off the ground for the SEV. (2) Shots of the Elf stuntmen actually kicking ass rather than flailing helplessly. I'd love for the Elves to show even a fraction of Legolas' fighting ability. (3) An explanation as to why Faramir let Frodo continue his journey bearing the ring. After Frodo's performance with the winged Nazgul, it came as a total shock that Faramir suddenly decided to let him go! Definitely some missing material here. (4) Some more of Gandalf's fight with the Balrog: "From the lowest dungeouns to the highest peak I fought him.." Let's see that cool stuff! ********** DoT, I honestly don't see how the dialogue in the videogame differs one iota from most of the dialogue in TTT. They sound pretty much the same to me. PJ+FW+PB have demonstrated that they are perfectly capable of this level of dialogue - so we'll have to wait and see with some trepidation, I fear! ******* ROTK soundtrack: great! If there's one person in whom I have TOTAL faith, it's Howard Shore. He wrote a brilliant score for FOTR, and an even better one for TTT. I have no reason to doubt that ROTK will be up to the same standard. My one misgiving is the "Into The West" song. At the moment it's sounding much like "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" - which is quite appropriate if you think about it! But it seems to stick out from the rest of the music....whew, that's it for now...
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actually, the ring wraith COULD NOT SEE THE DAMN RING WHEN FRODO HELD IT UP! wraiths don't "see" like normal people do, they can only SENSE THE POWER OF THE RING WHEN SOMEONE PUTS IT ON! so no, the wraiths DO NOT KNOW frodo has the ring.
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But, but, um, doesn't the Witch King duel Eowyn? How can he do that if he can't see? And wasn't that sniffing thing really for when the nazgul were in their weaker estate, i.e. that of black riders? And don't they fight Aragorn on old weathertop even then, how do they see to fight him? And I always (and quite possibly incorrectly) thought that the Nazgul could sense the ring even when it wasn't worn by someone, but that they could REALLY get a tab on a person who puts the ring on. Please, I'm not trying to be contentious. If you have answers, please give them to me. But right now this whole "the ring wraiths are completely blind" thing doesn't work. Why was the ring wraith even swooping down to get Frodo if he can't see jack? Was the fell beastie doing that? Was it just because it was a person, any person standing there and the beastie was going to eat him. Why did Frodo go into zombie Frodo mode a la the fords scene? Does that happen everytime a Nazgul is near?
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Yep-the whole thing...again.It's beautiful and somber-and big.It's full of new themes with the familiar ones woven in.Thankfully the track listing gives nothing away(except for the track:"Frodo & Sam Finally Do It".Was that is the book?)I'm no expert of music,but I love this so far.The arrival of the score makrs the begining.Two Towers this weekend and then a painfully long month.Now I'm excited.
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We don't ALL have multi-disc changers in our trunks.I'd rather have an in-dash Mp3 compatible player anyway.I can squeeze more music into one little carrying case that I can listen to in months.So there.
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No, the Nazgul reaally DON'T have good vision, neither does Frodo when he puts on the Ring and enters the Wraith world. Unfinished Tales has a load of good Nazgul stuff in the story of The Hunt For The Ring. The Nazgul will always see things in the shadowy way Frodo does when he puts on the Ring, as they live in that Wraith world, hence they are invisible under their black cloaks in the fleshly world but when Frodo puts on the Ring at Weathertop he can see their true forms. The Nazgul obviously can't just sense the Ring whenever they're near it; in FOTR when the Hobbits hide under the log in the Shire, it seems to have a feeling, a vague sense that something is nearby, but it's MUCH closer to the Ring then than in the TTT scene at Osgiliath, and it does not realise the Ring is right in front of it. What you DO see in that scene, is the Ring working to corrupt and tempt Frodo to put it on, which happens whenever the Wraiths are near throughout the two films (under the log, Bree, Weathertop, the Dead Marshes, Osgiliath). Gollum says in the Dead Marshes "They are calling for it! They are calling for the precious!". The Wraiths, and the supernatural fear they exude, awaken the Rings power, and it tries to seduce you into putting it on to save yourself from them (which is a trick, as putting it on, draws them to it's power, as Gandalf warns Frodo in FOTR). In TTT, Frodo is succumbing to the Ring's power, and is raising it to put it on. The Nazgul can maybe sense the Ring, vaguely, and is wondering what it is, but can't see Frodo, at least not clearly, although the Fell Beast can, and is about to snatch at Frodo (no doubt thinking him a tasty morsel!). Sam running and knocking Frodo away serves the double purpose of stopping him revealing himself to the Wraith by putting on the Ring, and snatching him from the Fell Beast's jaws. Whatever the Wraith senses is forgotten as the Fell Beast rears in pain and shock at the dirty great clothyard arrow sunk into it by a powerful Ranger longbow fired by Faramir. Watch FOTR and TTT again, and pay close attention to Frodo and the Ring, and the Wraiths, it does all hang together and make sense, and doesn't ruin the mystery (to Sauron) of where the Ring is.
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Nov 11, 2003 8:49:21 PM CST
To the stranger hiding behind the real Skyway Moaters' name,
by raw_bean
"How would some of you like me to hide a couple of thousand kiddie porn pics on your machines and then let your IP addresses circulate in the right quarters? Nice. And all that could have been avoided by some ordinary politeness. So unless I start to hear some pretty fucking sincere apologies, NONE OF YOU are going to emerge from this unscathed. You have twenty-four hours." ---- My apology: I'm sorry you're so pathetic. And I am VERY sincere. Now, please don't use your God-like powers against my computer! --- Incidentally, why do you have 'kiddie porn pics' in the first place?
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'I see we're back to the "if you have any position other than unqualified praise of PJ's every decision, you're just dragging us down" complaints.' Sorry, but reading every post between this one of yours and the last, I couldn't find a single one to fit your description here. Just who was this scornful denouncement aimed at? cutestofborg and I were the most positive about the films in our posts, I think, and if you implacate me in this "if you have any position other than unqualified praise of PJ's every decision, you're just dragging us down" position I must take offence. I agree with you on many of your opnions on the failings of PJ's films D-o-T, it may surprise you to hear. I felt there was much that could be disliked about TTT (although very little in FOTR), but I've always been a 'glass-is-half-full', positive type of person, and I can find vastly more to love than to loathe in the films so far. No films version could ever be all things to all people, and some compromise is necessary, as making the film totally true to the books would put off casual filmgoers, meaning the films would never be made. At least in this form. Small, special-effect-less adaptations would need to draw less money, and could be more true for the purist, but I love the films as much as a visual interpretation of Tolkien's beautiful prose as anything else, and so I can be very happy with the films for how they look, even though dwelling on the plot changes or non-Tolkien dialogue could annoy me. It's a bit extreme, but I suggested to one angry TTT hater (probably MisterGrimmloch, before I realised my words were wasted) that TTT could be enjoyed by simply zoning out during dialogue, or even skipping past it, and just absorbing the wonderful music and evocative imagery of the films, and revelling in the wonderful (to my mid) realisation of Middle Earth in the films. That said, I don't need to. If I were to dwell on the lesser points of the films, I COULD get quite angry, but it would be wrong to do that at the cost of forgetting the good points (I hope there are some for you), and given the choice, I'd rather just enjoy myself. And when I let myself be carried away by these films, there has been no more sublime joy brought to me by any movie experience ever. Lastly though, I make no accusation to anyone of 'draggin us down'. You are totally entitled to your own opnion, as I am to mine. It's only people who bellow nonsense like: "TTT sucks balls, PJ's screwing Ringers up their a***s!!!", or somesuch that would have me angrily retorting, not a well-thought out and serious opnion, however wrong and soupuss-y it is! ;)
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When I said "resign," I was speaking in terms of worst-case scenario. I don't actually think these movies have raped anyone's childhood (that much).
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Welcome back! First, let me clear up the "amateur" charge. I have not heard (or read) this myself but apparently it is a case of something being lost in translation. There is a very informative post on Harry's TB (about the Sauruman cut) by
"number8" which explains the term as used differently in New Zealand - in a more literal sense of "writing for the love of it". Tolkien did write for love; we all know his profession was teaching. The most important aspect of the term being that it contains no implied slight whatsoever.***As for you hopes for the SEV (yes! I have seen it!): No to 1, 2 and 4. Partial yes to 3. There is much new for Faramir and I hope you'll be happy with it, but whether your very specific question is answered by the additional scenes I can't really predict. As to 4, there is no addtional Balrog fight but there is some interesting new Gandalf material.***Also, one thing you don't have to stew over is the palantir. It's in as far as any of us can tell. Too many huge clues out there. If you haven't seen the stills from the German
"visual companion" book over at TORN, get over there and do so.
***I agree that the release schedule is "insanely unrealistic...One mega effects-driven movie per year! Think about it! It takes Lucas, what? two-three years to do same?..."
but that is the plan under which these movies were given the go-ahead. No one knew then that they would be the success they became. If they had, I'm sure they would have planned at least a two year span.***You say
"aren't the film-makers now using the Extended DVD format to "fix" the problems caused by the new material they interjected?" Again, please remember that it was decided right from the get-go that there would be a theatrical version and an "extended" version. PJ loves the DVD format and all the things it can do. He planned all along to have an additional cut as a solution to the dual audiences he was trying to reach.
This was not a reaction to the demands or failures of the shooting schedule or a reaction to the popular success of ths films. I see evidence that PJ is doing exactly what he said he would do.***That said, I think we will eventually see T2T in many new lights once everything is out. Even though I have less
"problems" with it than many others, I do see it as more
"troubled" than FOTR and I suspect that the number of departures from the book that it contains is indeed the source of the "trouble", the interwoven threads that morGoth talked about way back when, threads that need delicate re-weaving once they are broken. But the middle part of a story is going to be the hardest part, especially if you are also trying to make it stand alone. AND, don't forget that in the midst of shooting they fixed one of the poorest-thought-out ideas they had, of Arwen fighting at HD. That really necessitated a lot more re-jiggering. But I am going to wait for that discussion
until all the evidence is in.***
finally I have to come clean and admit I have never heard what it is in Annie Lennox's voice that makes her so admired. I cannot fathom her voice being appropriate for anything in LOTR except a balrogette. But the choice has been made and I will have to stop my ears or learn to love it. I dreaded the idea of Gollum's song when I first heard about it, but came to love it easily. We'll see! -
well, rawbeen pretty much explained it all, and I never said the wraiths were completely blind.
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its nice to see a normal poster in this place. alas, I have once again succumb to the temptations of trolling and flaming people, its too damn fun and easy. actually, you and d.o.t. and cutestofborg are the only talkbackers whos posts i like reading.
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And don't forget to digitize in Loreena's voice instead of Lenox on the DVD. kthnxbye
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i flash back to fuck-ups, needles, and starving moms. "borrowing" that music and playing it over ROTK really takes away the harsh sting of requiem for me, which is a bummer. and even though i've avoided watching ROTK trailers and fucking video game promos at every fucking turn, i still think i've seen too much. reguarding the editing debacle, leave it to the pros. either they will fuck it up, or they'll make it work. go see the flick next month and THEN go nuts over the decision-making.
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Nov 12, 2003 12:47:04 AM CST
"Hell, Spielberg or Cameron could have directed it. Imagine the
by commando cody
How do you even BEGIN to state that, CutestofBorg? Hey, I loved the books growing up and I've enjoyed the movies for what they are -- which is simply an interpretation. But even as people argue here about details like dialogue shifting between characters (ie. different from the way it was the books) versus editiorial cuts or wholesale restructuring (like the whole issue of Sarumon)...it's clear that people are willing to accept some things, but clearly will have issues with others. I love the movies, but it's not like I'm ready to annoint the man "Saint PJ" as if this is the end-all of all cinematic art. They're just movies for Heaven's sake. Personally, I think Spielberg would've done a helluva job with the series, and Cameron, too. Are you kidding me? Given his track record, I'm sure Cameron's sure hand on the action scenes probably WOULD have surpassed PJs versions. A Cameron-directed Helms Deep would have kicked ass. Does that make PJs any less worth watching? No, it's just different. But I wouldn't toss a world like "travesty" at ace directors like Spielberg or Cameron. Sheesh, could you possibly have picked 2 worst examples to cite since they're only 2 of the best genre filmmakers in the world!?!
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carry out your threat, and you'll be another fat pimply teenager the FBI will be arresting and dragging off to a Federal Gaol. Looking forward to being somebodie's, bitch eh? DOT's correct guys, I hope that crap she was referring to is not in ROTK, it will make it worse. Cheers.
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There's more on TORN, but this is the Grey Havens paragraph: "I saw a rough cut of the sequence," Lesnie says, "with all the bluescreens in the shots, and it was still a staggeringly moving sequence... you're cutting back and forth between the four hobbits and Galadriel, and everyone is standing on the jetty next to the Elven boat that's going to sail away. Bilbo's gone and Gandalf says goodbye, and they summon Frodo, and then the other three hobbits suddenly realize Frodo is going as well..."
***It would seem evident that if the other hobbits didn't know he was going, there's no returning to the Shire, which is as I suspected. (If the Scouring is out, and there's no time for Saruman, it was never likely there'd be time for awkward homecoming-and-departing-again.) ***Gypsy, your little list - even though I don't agree with all of it - made me laugh, and I absolutely agree with the sad absence of little candles (as opposed to flaming industrial jets!) and the quality of the statues. Thousands of years, and they couldn't come up with one Elven equivalent to Bernini! ***Orson, you're quite right that all one has to do is cross the bar into "negativity" and hundreds of positive posts are forgotten. (It must have been two or three a day for FOTR alone.) But as I was discussing with a friend tonight, we live in an age that has lost the ability to think analytically or critically about much of anything; all perspective is lost, if the only choices are cheerleader or naysayer, optimist or pessimist, glass half-full or half-empty (a cliche I'd like to retire; in either case, you're missing half the glass). ***Ye-Baar, if I've missed you before, I apologize; if not, welcome to the talkback! ***And also, welcome back Elanor. -
Nov 12, 2003 3:04:50 AM CST
Skywaymoater, I'm so sorry for causing you such heartache so her
by starwarrior
GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU KIDDIE-PORN -COLLECTING-RHINOCEROS-DICK-SUCKING-PIECE-OF-WHITE-TRASH.
You, Hitler and Bin Laden all deserve the same treatment: having each and everyone of your penis hair (of course, that's assuming, probably wrongly, that you have a penis) yanked out one by one while watching jews celebrating the sabbath and pissing on the fucking hole they're rightfully gonna put you in.
So go join the taliban, but mostly,
DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!! -
What always surprises me is the astoundingly short memories some of the fanboys in these talkbacks have. All those of you whining that there will be no closure to the Saruman storyline - have you already forgotten the preview material on the DVD? The part where Merry tells Pippin that Sauron thinks he has the Ring? Obviously the palantir is involved in there somewhere, so we WILL get closure on the Saruman storyline. Maybe it will only be in the Extended Edition - but you know what? Who cares. The Extended Editions are better films anyway. ("Two Towers" had some gaping plot which it looks like the Extended Edition will be patching.) Perhaps one day the film industry will get the balls to start screening 4 hour movies on a regular basis. In the meantime - deal. ************************************************* Relating more directly to the point of this thread, why's everyone so ruffled about the Lennox song. Sounds like a perfectly decent folk song to me; with an appropriately yearning mood for the end of the trilogy. Howard Shore's score has been very eclectic thus far - why not add folk music to the list of styles he uses? (If anybody thinks of bitching that folk music is anachronistic, save it. As far as I can tell, no one in Middle Earth had invented French horns or chromatic chords yet, so the entire film score is technically anachronistic.)
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THREE rings, I mean weeks until LotR:FotR-EE!!! FOUR weeks until LotR:TTT-EE!!!! FIVE weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!! Take it away Alfalfa: RIGHT "So the cat on his fiddle played hey-diddle-diddle, a jig that would wake the dead: He squeaked and sawed and quickened the tune, While the landlord shook the Man in the Moon: 'It's after three!' he said." TRIANGLE
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May I remind both of you that P.J.'s (New Line's?) original "plan" was to release the movies six months apart! First it was Summer '01 / December '01 / Summer '02. That changed to December '01 / Summer '01 / December '02 for about twenty minutes before becoming the final December '01, '02, '03 release plan. Talk about your unrealistic goals! Everyone must have been on speed when they came up with that one. "A movie every six months with DVD's in between? Sure, no problem!" CRASH.
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That second plan should have read December '01 / Summer '02 / December '02, but you get my drift. Next time I'll proofread better before hitting the post button.
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Haven't read all of this yet but, Great Warbling Tinfangs, some of you folk take me WAAAYYYY too seriously. IT WAS A JOKE! That said, I think I'll switch allegiance to Sabster's clique...hey, it's a good way to meet chicks.
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Thanks for your lengthy response and for clearing up those points for me. And 1 out of 4 on my wish-list is better than nothing! I forgot to mention that I very much like what PJ has done with Faramir's character and really look forward to seeing the extra scenes in the SEV. The only thing I had problems with was the sudden decision to release Frodo - but I've a strong feeling the extra scenes will give weight to this. BTW I'm green with envy that you managed to get hold of the SEV so early! You must have friends in high places! Ah, so I see there are stills of Pippin and the palantir.......hmmmm, I wonder how he'll come by it. A short scene of him discovering it in the flotsam and jetsam of Isengard perhaps? They might show a quick scene of Orthanc itself becomming flooded and filling up with water.
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As for all the exclaming over the LOTR movies being only a year apart, someone compared them to Star Wars. There's a big difference, each Star Wars film is started from scratch, designed and written, shot, and then goes through post production, then the next one starts up. The reason LOTR films could come out a year apart was because of the concurrent filming of all three. The whole trilogy was written and designed, and filmed all together (apart from the relatively small amount of reshoots each year), and then each one has a whole year for JUST THE POST-PRODUCTION. There's a whole year for just the effects, scoring and editing (and a bit of simultaneous work redoing the last film for the EE DVD). To my mind, this was a brilliant idea, and I've loved having a LOTR film to look forward to at Christmas for the last three years, almost. Although I agree six months would have been insane. :) --- morG, so fickle? The BWBKJS doesn't let it's members escape so easily, not even it's founder! Don't sleep too heaviily morG. Mwuhahahahaha! ---- GypsyTRobot, I lack the energy right now to go through all your points about the films, but straight off, were you paying any attention at all in the Dead Marshes? The 'candles' were EVERYwhere! Those flames burning over the apparitions in the water. --- PS, Galadriel managed to avoid looking like she was being exterminated by Daleks by not contorting herself in some melodramatic "Oooh the pain!" performance. Plus there was no cheesy BBC radiophonic workshop sound effect. --- Oh and see my post to Ye-Baar regarding the Nazgul and Frodo in Osgiliath. And Gimli's makeup is excellent, if you ask me. And whenever he's not being the comic relief (and even sometimes when he is) I find Gimli wonderful in the films, John Rhys Davies is great. And the statues DO look great! What're you talking about?! And while Aragorn-over-the-cliff is firmly in the 'glaring errors' bin, the ending of FOTR is, in my opnion, perfect. The wargs weren't great, it's true, and they didn't look enough like wolves. While I disagree with some of them, I could also ADD a few more faults with the films. I do not overlook them, I just weigh them up against the overwhelming majority of things that are great in the films, and just allow the films to sweep me up in their greatness.
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Thanks guys for your well-informed and formulated responses to my seemingly endless nitpicking. Unfortunatley, I am still unable to let it go. First of all, let me say raw_bean, that when you say "cover some OLD ground with Ye-Baar" it implies you already explained all this to me and that I agreed. I enjoyed our last conversation (and I'm enjoying this one) but I had to leave before it was over. I had not had a chance to level all those questions I fired at GreyElf at you in that previous conversation. Now, for my response. I have not read Tolkiens works to the degree you have, and I plan to take your advice and read Unfinished Tales just as soon as I can find the time. But for the moment, let's start with this. I accept the fact that the ringwraiths can't sense the ring's location very precisely, but I think that the movies haven't been fully consistent in Frodo going into zombie "give-up-the-ring" mode whenever one of the nine are simply within close physical proximity to Frodo. You gave the example of the inn at Bree. Yup, Frodo does go into a daze there. If that daze is inspired by the prescence of the nazgul then why doesn't he go into a daze later that night when they are actually much closer to him as they are chopping up pillows? Also, on weathertop (and it's been a while so forgive my faltering memory if that's the case here) but I seem to recall Frodo putting on the ring in a desperate attempt to escape the nine, but he didn't go into "zombie" mode first, did he? Anyways, my point is that even from the movies point of view, it doesn't appear to me that the mere prescence of one of the riders is enough make Frodo go all white eyed and try to put on the ring. This is a critical point because if this is true, the ringwraiths have to make some sort of concious effort to produce this result of slo-mo Frodo putting on the ring, or at least being tempted to. And if it is a concious effort, they have to have known the ring was nearby in Osgilliath. Anyways, maybe Unfinished Tales will clear all this up for me. But didn't Aragorn imply early on in FOTR that whatever the steeds see, the riders see? Also, even if Unfinished Tales does give us some sort of insight into how the ringwraiths perceive their surroundings well enough to find a specific house, duel sword-masters (Aragorn & Eowyn) and command troop movements without being able to actually see hardly anything, isn't it possible that that story, "The Hunt for the Ring" was a work in progress and that really we should look to works published in his lifetime as "canon" from which we can draw our conclusions about how the world of M.E. works? Boy will I look like an ass if Unfinished Tales WAS published in his lifetime...As always, I eagerly await your enlightening smackdown.:)
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Ye-Baar, I think you make some excellent points, and I
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And then, since this is getting so long, how about shifting to the latest "20 Minutes of ROTK" discussion? ***MorGy, I truly never have played a video game - or at least, not since the first, primitive ones of a couple of decades ago, so I have no way of knowing how much the dialogue differs from films, and still can't imagine it would take a 180 degree turn, when so much care is going into all aspects of ROTK. And unfortunately, those awful lines do fit in with some other pieces of the puzzle. Just today, I've learned we're going to be given a drooling Denethor (however well the scene plays to those who don't mind some serious revisions to THAT character). Well, maybe it will be genuinely moving. But if I had to sum up the one thing that bothers me most about how the adaptation is going, it's that the filmmakers consistently seem to think that stripping any given character of his inherent nobility, goodness or dignity somehow makes the characterization richer and more "cinematic" - a point of view that I think speaks to our cynical times more than Tolkien's intentions. Faramir's men now beat Gollum; Frodo turns viciously against Sam, not just for a flash, but long enough to hold a sword to his throat (we'll see if the "Go home!" actually appears); Denethor cannot be a proud and noble (if horribly egotistic) man gone mad, but must drool, and then his contemptuous (and contemptible) behavior toward Faramir must be completely over the top.... One of the most eloquent print essays to come out after FOTR was titled "Men Behaving Nobly," and offered the opinion that many people were so rapturously drawn to this movie because we had been so starved for examples of that. Talkbackers go on a lot about the "audience" for these films and how this or that had to be adapted for them, but who's to say that among these millions, there aren't just as many that would have responded to and understood a noble Faramir, a suffering but not unhinged Frodo, or Denethor as a proud mind overthrown by despair.... ***I don't think anyone's disputing the folk song nature of the final track; it's the harshness of the singer's voice that is throwing us off, especially given the mood that should have just been set. However, if there's anything I'm NOT worried about, it's Shore's score. I just wish they would change the rules again, since it has to be every bit as Oscar-worthy (and far more complex) than his score for FOTR.
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First off, I meant it was old ground to me, not you. I HAVE explained all this before, but not to you, so for ME it's retreading old ground. As for the 'zombie mode' (what an awful sounding phrase!), it's not totally connected with the proximity of the Ring wraiths, it about fear, and how the Ring takes advantage of your fear to tempt you into putting it on, so you can hide, get away, be safe. The thing about the Ringwraiths is they project fear wherever they go. Frodo also goes into 'zombie mode' when Faramir seems to be threatening Frodo in Henneth Annun (incidentally , much though I love the films, it's almost unforgivable how they twisted "a chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality" from its original context), even thought the Nazgul are nowhere near. When Frodo is afraid, the Ring battles to take him over, this just happens most often when the Wraiths are near, awakening the Ring with their evil and terrifying presence. The Unfinished Tales story won't explain this stuff, this is movie stuff that's been extrapolated from book stuff, it's one possible way to interpret thing implied or suggested in the book. As for all this 'canon' nonsense it's kind of silly anyway, if you read the History of Middle Earth. Christopher Tolkien points out many errors and inconsistencies in the published works, where a phrase has been misread when a manuscript has been typed up, or a change that Tolkien decided to make to the text was subsequently forgotten, or missed. Or where Tolkien found two inconsistent points (say of geography, where the map as drawn out neatly by Christopher Tolkien in his youth for his father, and the text, disagree on some point) and he 'corrects' the wrong one, causing further inconsistencies he does not notice. The Hunt For The Ring was definately a work in progress (otherwise it wouldn't be in 'Unfinished Tales', however it is an eloboration on the events seen in the early part of LOTR, so it cannot have changed much and still agreed with the 'canon'. At the end of the day though, the Ringwraiths poor vision, their existence in the 'wraith world' and said world being one of shadows and half-seen shapes is all detailed in LOTR itself anyway, it's just easir to find in a short text devoted almost solely to the Nazgul. When it is said the Wraiths cannot see but their steeds can, I never found any indication that the Wraiths could see through their steeds' eyes, just that they (the horses, and then Fell Beasts) were well trained, so the Nazgul could rely on them to use their sight to avoid riding into ditches (horses), or to attack men in battle (Fell Beasts).
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(This is, not just the brief clips.) If you can recall the brief segment of music that is heard on the FOTR EE as Frodo turns his head to leave Rivendell (and which is to me the most heartbreaking bit of music in the whole thing so far), does this little theme ever repeat in ROTK? I was hoping it might at the Grey Havens... it would seem suitable, a sort of "leaving" motif. It's hard to believe Shore would come up with anything that beautiful and only use it once, when he has interwoven so many other themes.
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Thanks daughter of time for the support. And thank you raw_bean for your (as usual) well-thought out response. Unfortunatly, I need to go for the night, so I'll be unable to continue this debate. But I think it's pretty much over anyway. It's one of those agree to disagree things I think. I believe that although the poor shadow world vision of the wraiths is established well enough in LOTR (books) it is also true that they see well enough to do all the things mentioned in my post, the strangest of all (the more that I think about it) is finding Frodo's (Mr. Underhill's) new house. Anyways, kudos to you, raw_bean, as before, it was a pleasure, and thanks again, daughter of time.
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"we live in an age that has lost the ability to think analytically or critically about much of anything", hmmm. Pesonally I think people are people, always have been and always will be essentially the same. I doubt there ever was any kind of 'golden age' where the average person ever spent much time thinking analytically or critically. -- I refer to myself as a 'glass-is-half-full' kind of person, but it doesn't mean that I have lost perspective, I still realise that they are both the same; the glass is both half-full and half-empty, it's more about whether you focus on the good or the bad more. I find my life to be much more fulfilling when I focus on the good in something, not to the extent that I ignore the bad, just that I refuse to let it get me down. Anyway, that's the philsophy of raw_bean, take it or leave it. Either way, I'll still be happy to come here and engage in stimulating and interesting conversations with people. :)
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... YAYYY! Gimme a Sky, gimme a Way, gimme a skywaymoaters! That give you a nice warm fuzzy there sugar britches? Isn't victory SWEET my preciousss? Even asinine hollow ones? I'll make you a deal: I won't post anymore, if you don't. What I could have done to inspire the depth of antipathy you have demonstrated is beyond me, but no matter. What say you Herr Jackass? From one motherfucker to another? From one miserable excuse for a human being to his match? We got a deal? *** Harry, Father Geek, kindly ban/delete anything that even remotely sounds like skywaymoaters/Skyway Moaters so that there can be an end to this crap, and the decent folks that post here can have some peace from this shit. *** Namarie Mellyn Tolkienoids. Have no fear ROTK will be great.
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What about the Hobbit? Revised extensively after LOTR because in it's existing, published, 'canonical' form it was totally inconsistent with how LOTR had evolved. How about Gollum having every intention of GIVING the Ring to Bilbo if he won the riddle competition? This renders the notion of 'canon' rather absurd, because there would have been noting to stop Tolkien revising LOTR later to make it consistent with new developments in his Silmarillion text if he came to a point where he felt ready to publish it. As for the Hobbit, Tolkien explained it away with the conceit that Bilbo (who wrote the Hobbit, of course) changed his story, the earlier version of the Hobbit was a fabrication on his part to justify his having the Ring ( ie, because Gollum owed it to him anyway, since Bilbo won the competition). Following this line, all Tolkien's works on Middle Earth were not written by him, but translated from accounts passed down through the years from scholars who noted these events, and Tolkien used this to explain away inconsistencies in tone and detail between his works. The fact that these inconsistencies existed make the idea of 'canon' rather daft, and then Tolkien's own literary device does the same thing. All The Hobbit does, is 'canonically' say that Bilbo remembers the events of his journey happening in a certain fashion, and that Frodo and then Sam remember things happening in such a way, and as for the stuff that doesn't involve them! That is Frodo and Sam recording a second-hand version of events! If you take the published LOTR and Hobbit as canon, then that includes the bits in them that say they were written by the Hobbits themselves, from memory, or from reports they heard from others, of things that happened where they were not present. This is all quite apart from the fact that expecting a man to invent consistent, canonical 'rules' for an entire imagined universe in some pieces of fiction is unfair and rather in vain, even where the author is a man of such genius as Prof. Tolkien.
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the notion of 'canon' is a great one for freeing people from using their imagination, thinking for themselves, and having to make up their own minds. Of having to think analytically and critically, if you will. ;) --- D-o-T, I'm still wondering just who you thought was in the "if you have any position other than unqualified praise of PJ's every decision, you're just dragging us down" frame of mind. I could respond to say that you are in the "if you have any position other than (well to be fair, quite well qualified) scorn for PJ's every decision, you're just deluding yourself and missing the whole 'spirit of Tolkien'." frame of mind, but I won't, because that would be an unfair simplification of your viewpoint. --- Finally, since I've shamefully managed to neglect responding to cutestofborg's friendly hello, hail and well met, Delta Quadrant-sai! And now I'll sign of for the night, but before I go to bed I think I'll finally listen to these ROTK soundtrack exerpts I've supposedly been discussing this past couple of days! :D
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...I'm very much enjoying this Ring/Nazgul discussion, it's just like the old days. Now this brings me to a question about the book. DOT says "Would Sauron send them out
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we carried this discussion on at the new ROTK TB, aintitcool.com/tb_display.cgi?id=16486, if you're interested in seeing how it developed. :)
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