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I am – Hercules!!

Angel 5.6 FAQ

What’s it called?

“The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco.”

Who’s responsible?

The episode was written and directed by Jeffrey Bell (“The Magic Bullet”).

What did Coax say about this one back on Sept. 15?

… the episode will center around an employee working in the Wolfram & Hart mailroom. He’s a former Mexican wrestler who did in the 1950s what Team Angel does now: ridding us of monsters and other ne’er-do-wells. Seems the wrestler, who went by the name “Number Five,” once defeated a demon known as Tezcatcatl, “The Aztec Warrior,” who murdered Number Five’s four wrestling brothers. Now that the creature has returned 50 years later, Angel needs Number Five’s help.

What does TV Guide say?

On the Mexican Day of the Dead, Angel has a run-in with a Wolfram & Hart employee (Danny Mora) who's connected to an Aztec warrior demon that thrives on the hearts of heroes. Elsewhere, Spike researches the Shansu prophesy, while Angel wrestles with personal issues.

Any surprises in Spike’s reaction to the prophesy?

“When you say, ‘plays a major role in an apocalyptic battle,’” Spike asks Wes, “you mean like, um... heroically closing a hellmouth that was about to destroy the world?”

Does Wes buy into Spike’s theory?

He seems, actually, to discredit it - on account of Spike being all immaterial.

With which personal issues does Angel wrestle?

The word “disconnected” keeps coming up.

Is it true, as rumored, that Number Five has no face?

He seems to have a face, but he never actually removes the mask. He explains that his brothers always wore theirs, day and night, so they could spring into action at a moment’s notice.

The big news?

The big news is there’s not a lot of big news this week. I think the really big news comes next week (when we’re introduced to a face long familiar to Wes and the Watchers Council).

What’s good?

The episode definitely has some goofy charm. I especially enjoyed the flashback with Number Five’s brothers, when a phone call summons them to an encounter at once supernatural and technological.

What’s not so good?

Those Green Hornet-y flashbacks with the brothers definitely constituted the show’s highlight; one wishes they’d gone a bit further with them. Also, it’s not what I’d call a pivotal installment. (That is, I wouldn’t be surprised if footage from this show never appeared in a future “Previously on ‘Angel’” clip prologue. Except, perhaps, for that final shot.)

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

"Shansu Prophecy, English Translation."

Herc’s rating for “Angel” 5.6?


The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

***** better than we deserve

**** better than most motion pictures

*** actually worth your valuable time

** as horrible as most stuff on TV

* makes you quietly pray for bulletins

9 p.m. Wednesday. The WB.

Swing the crebbil!

I am – Hercules!!

Looking for bumper stickers, plush toys and girls’ underwear covered with cute cartoon double-amputees? Visit The Herc Store!

Readers Talkback
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  • Nov. 5, 2003, 7:11 p.m. CST

    First you whores!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by reignman79

    that is all.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 7:12 p.m. CST

    they looked more like....

    by Fantomex

    mexican wrestling NINJSA. btw shame on you herc for your 24 post yesterday.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 7:13 p.m. CST


    by JackBristow

    Don't shanshu Spike! Like Angel said, Angel's dealt for hundreds of years of torment. Spike spent a few weeks in a basement."

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 7:15 p.m. CST

    Dont worry

    by Frank_Serpico

    the writers are gonna show as if Angel has lost his edge and is now disillusioned from his destiny and Spike will be the one to fufill the prophecy. But by the end of the season its all a big misdirect and Angel will go all Season2 on Spike's ass and get the prophecy.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 7:37 p.m. CST

    Who's that jumpin' out the sky?

    by Denny187

    R-E-Y we go...

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 8:10 p.m. CST

    Standalone Episodes

    by DanielKurland

    I love this show to death and it has always been amazing. I have thought this season has been pretty good so far, it is just discouraging that so many episodes are pointless and contribute to nothing. People watched Angel for its season long arcs. Most seasons start off with a lot of standalone episodes though, I just hope that Angel's episodes eventually become more important. Can anyone that knows things about future episodes calm my fears?

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 8:34 p.m. CST


    by Kungfumanchu

    Hey Daniel,I agree with everything you said.Unfortunately,the more stand alone,less arc agreement was the deal with the devil Whedon made to bring the show back for another season.While I much prefer the arc eps,I'll take Angel-lite over most TV crap any day of the week.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 9:50 p.m. CST

    How about a Smallville talkback....

    by KryptonsLastSon

    I'm still upset that Angel basically abandoaned all of its background to become "Undead LA Law". Remember when they used to help people.... Bring on the Smallville Talkbacks, those used to at least have multiple posts.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 10:08 p.m. CST

    Great Episode

    by DanielKurland

    I thought I wouldn't enjoy this episode much at all, but I ended up liking it a lot. Pretty good standalone plot, but what I found really interesting were two concepts explored in it. First being that Angel is no longer considered a hero and that he has given up on the Shanshu prophecy (except at the ending) whereas Spike is going in the opposite direction. I can very easily see these two competing to become human and one succeeding at season's end. The other concept was Angel's talk with Wesley about "The Father Will Kill the Son". This basically told us that the events of the last 2 years have officially been altered, which is pretty much what we assumed. It explains why Wesley isn't nearly as badass as he used to be though, he never had all his friends abandon him. Hopefulyl Wesley can still go back to that level somehow, because he was really was amazing that way. It turned out to be a good episode, and it alluded to some interesting concepts for the year.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 10:16 p.m. CST

    Wesley and Connor

    by JackBristow

    I think Wesley's fall and rise still happened. The spell that changed things probably found a new way to rewrite that piece of history. And speaking of rewrite, I think I know what will happen in the episode when Connor comes back. Remember how the "Father will kill the son" prophesy was false, having been rewritten from the previous "The one sired by the vampire with a soul shall grow to manhood and kill Sahjhan?" Well, I bet Sahjhan returns, Angel realizes he needs Connor, and temporarily brings him back.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 10:31 p.m. CST

    El Santo Rides Again!

    by Lycaeon

    I loved this episode, but I'm going to miss trying to play spot the wrestler weve been playing all season. Oh well, time to order that El Santo Vs. The Monsters DVD box set. If only we could get Freddy and Jason in a tag team match against the two greatest monster fighters of all, Ash and El Santo!

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 10:57 p.m. CST

    This episode was great

    by JackDonkey

    not as great as the pylea stuff but what is.

  • Nov. 5, 2003, 11:59 p.m. CST

    bugging me

    by el oso

    i know this is kind of a useless annoyance, but WHY THE HELL CAN SPIKE SIT DOWN AND RIDE IN CARS WHEN HE CAN'T TOUCH ANYTHING ELSE? even before he learned how to pick up coffee mugs he would ride around with angel and sit down on couches. urgh!

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 12:16 a.m. CST


    by Rhaegar

    Yeah, and his echoing footsteps in the basement during "Hellbound" were also a glaring reminder that the rest of him may be incorporeal, but his feet sure aint.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 12:52 a.m. CST

    Im sorry, but this episode was

    by Entilzha Proph

    WEAK!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I just had real issues with it. I don't know if Angel has lost his edge and drive, but the show sure has. It needs the arc back. - - - Actually, as for that whole debate about how could Xander come over, well, I've always thought it would've been interesting to see how Xander would interact with Cordy now - Of course, at this point, it is rather moot, but hey. Course, what I really wanna see is MT and VK do some guesting, if not join up. I doubt it'll happen, but I keep hoping

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 1:03 a.m. CST


    by Killer_Turtle

    Where's Cordy???

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 1:45 a.m. CST

    Great eppy

    by Whedon

    Herc, I'm with you that not a whole lot was accomplished in the grand scheme of things but it was still a fun episode. Bell seemed to write every character pretty well as Every character was good in this one, and how about ME finally mentioning the mind wipe. "The Father will kill the son" followed by Wes's clueless reaction. Line of the night of course goes to Spike, "You were always such a drama queen"

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 2:18 a.m. CST

    Spike should shanshu

    by LivingTribunal

    He earned it. Angel was cursed with his soul while Spike sought his out. Also, this episode shows that the "reward" for all his good deeds is important to Angel (and now to Spike). Spike saved the world with no promise of a reward. Besides, it would make the fatso's journey more poignant if it ends with no reward. Angel shanshuing is the predicatble outcome.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 3:15 a.m. CST

    Wasn't looking forward to this one....

    by Daryl van Horn

    ...and sure enough it was kinda true to my expectations. Good season so far even if I prefer season arcs over the stand-alones ("Joss' deal with the devil to get S5" eh? Nicely put, and pretty true) but still so far I've enjoyed the eps. But this one.....oy. Nothing I really hated or anything but please....big fat letters all over the thing: "F-I-L-L-E-R"! They've got all these great regular characters running around with unexplored depths and issues and what do we focus on?? Masked mexican wrestlers that fight demons??? Sorry, but what the fuck were they thinking? Why would I give a damn? I tried to see stuff in it....metaphor for old, maybe superheroes....maybe it's deliberate camp with a wink.....anything. But in the end it was just a snooze. Only interesting bits were Angel and Spike's musings over the prophecy that could cover either of them. Spike of course mainly hopes it's a chance to escape this miserable limbo-existence he's in. However, I had some issues with the great 'moral' of the issue being that Angel now has hope for the reward again. Huh? Is THAT what heroism is all about? The hope for the reward? Hey, either Spike or Angel deserves it by now. And please, that Angel hung around in alleyways for years does not make him more worthy of that reward. That didn't make him a hero. That just made him a depressed traumatized guy. And if he'd have Buffy to be in love with at that time he would have not been that different from Spike. No what makes Angel a hero is what he's done ever since Whistler came to him. What ME should do is get their asses in gear and explore the dark brother-relationship between Angel and Spike. Get some flashbacks, let them see themselves in each other like a distorted mirror. Let Angel see how someone else deals with this state of being. Have Spike find out who he is now that he's got a soul, but is without Buffy. And if not that, give Wesley something to friggin' do already! And SOMEBODY do Fred already! Show me all THAT kinda stuff! Not mexican wrestlers with masks!! This may be the last season of the Buffy/Angelverse shows! THERE IS NO ROOM FOR FILLERS ANYMORE, OKAY!? OH, AND WHILE I'M YELLING, THANKS SARAH, FOR NOT SHOWING UP FOR SWEEPS! I'M SURE YOUR WAAAY TOO BIG FOR THIS NOW RIGHT? RIIIGHT!...........pant pant....I'm fine....really...

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 3:25 a.m. CST

    The Devil built a... ?

    by NNNOOO!!!

    ...alright I'm not going to give it away either, but Wesley's deadly serious reaction got the biggest laugh out of me. I think I woke people up. Sorry Herc, but arc or no arc this was at least 4 stars. A great yarn-- a fascinating (and surprisingly respectful) glimpse into the history of West Coast superheroism. Y'know, looking back at other shows, I find it's the standalones that stand out. "Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose." anyone?

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 3:47 a.m. CST

    Reel it in fanbois....

    by BigSkippy

    Look, I have never posted here before, so flame me away if you must. I started watching Angel last season when my girlfriend moved in with me. I basically liked it some, but was constantly getting "here is why they are doing that.." from her to keep me interested. Learn a lesson, series on TV which do nothing but follow long arcs end up dying because they can't attract new viewers. Think about the longest running series you can think of, one VITAL part of long term survival was limiting multi episode arcs. Now, I do think they have some importance, they give cohesion to the series by linking things in a timeline. The lesson here is balance, and I think they're getting it right this season. Each episode i've seen to far has basically been able to stand on it's own while still giving bits and pieces of the long term arcs. You want to see Angel continue as a series? Then they need to be able to draw more people into watching. Period. Without ratings, you don't make money.. without making money.. you don't make Angel. In a sense this boils down to the reverse of a popular lesson for children. In this case, if you want your meat and potatos, you have to eat your empty calorie dessert first. Now, as for this episode, I enjoyed it. Fun to watch, showed me a glimpse of thigns to come with the whole prophecy issues... I also happen to love luchadores in general. (check out Los Straitjackets if you ever get a chance in your town...) I loved last weeks episode because since I am in the process of "growing up and settling down" from a 10 year stint as my social circles party host with the most I bond with Lorne. P.S.- My girlfriend also rants every single episode about Spikes "conditional solidity issues" SO .. well.. flame away.. I'm new.. I'm ready... I'm wearing my asbestos luchadore mask...

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 6:03 a.m. CST

    Better than I thought...

    by mrfan

    Have to admit. Liked this episode better than I thought I would. I think it brought back some important elements Angel has been missing since the season started. The Angel crew working at night. Sorry. But I have hated the daytime antics. Angel works better in the night and outside the office. And I think the show works visually with that element over the last four years. Shanshu. I think this is going to be an interesting direction and probably the one for this season. Angel wants it. And Spike wants it also. The talk of Wolfram and Hart being evil. From the very beginning of this season this law firm has been made to not look that evil. Bring back the real evil. Look at all the crap they did over the last four years. I would expect more of the senior partners to challenge Angel and gang. I think Mr. Bell did a good job directing/writing.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 7:36 a.m. CST

    A pleasant surprise.

    by Devil'sOwn

    What I was expecting to be a real groaner, turned out to be the best episode so far. I actually relaxed, smiled, and laughed out loud a few times. All the characters seemed to be represented well. This is more like it. I hope they're finally hitting their groove.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 8:12 a.m. CST

    Angel IS the one to shanshu

    by Calm_b4_the_Strm

    no offence but Mr.Attempted Rapist saved the world ONCE ! something Angel has been doing for 7 years and plz no more shit of Spike seeking his soul out . He did so he could have legit exscuse for fucking Buffy not cuz it was the rite thing to do . Angel has sacrificed everything while Spike acts like his slate was wiped clean after getting a soul.He needs to drag his bitch ass back to Buffy.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 8:18 a.m. CST


    by Frank_Serpico

    Angel definitely deserves but NOT now . who wants Angel to be a human with no chance of Angelus ever coming back ?? Christ that would be boring . They're gonna play this as if Spike is the one to get the prophecy but it will be revealed later that it was Angel all along.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 8:48 a.m. CST


    by mike1880

    To me it looks like this season DOES have a story arc with a big bad. The big bad is W&H. And the story arc is angel and crew trying to figure out their new positions inside the belly of the beast. There are lots of plot points that i'm sure will be addressed soon like gunns brain deal, knox, the black panther, the fact that W&H wanted angel to use the amulet and eve. These things will probably play a significant part this season. It only seems like this show is going nowwhere because there is no tangible villian or underboss that they feel threatened by and have to fight. They only feel an impending doom(or at least just angel does). By the way I think spikes storyline will be a side story because he wasn't supposed to use the amulet. I expect it to be resolved midseason and then he can fight alongside team angel. The season is still young and when we watch it on DVD later we will see that these first few episodes will be fun and will lead into more interesting things. Later.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 9:05 a.m. CST

    Angel's Heart

    by holidill

    First loved the episode. "We're supposed to kill him not pin him!" But the thing that made me think was why Angel felt bad that the creature did not take his heart, I know the creature takes the hearts of heroes for sustenance, Angel's heart no longer works, he's dead, why would the creature want it? It does not pump blood, it is not alive. I guess the whole point is that Angel no longer feels like a hero.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 9:20 a.m. CST

    Best episode so far this season!

    by rev_skarekroe

    That's what I say. How could you not like it? It had action, comedy, heart... And it was about Luchadores of all things! Anyway, they won't put this in a "previously on Angel" because they don't do those anymore. Instead they do really long bouts of expository dialogue every episode, and it's freakin' annoying. BTW, I missed last week's talkback but I have a question - how is it that all those Wolfram and Hart employees remember last year's Halloween party when they should all have been killed by the Beast? sk

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 9:21 a.m. CST

    ghost Spike

    by cfmustang

    Actually, making Spike a ghost for a while got the writers out of trouble. If Spike came back all fleshy, he would have ran off to Buffy faster than you can say "Wheatabix". By making him a ghost that is tied to Wolfram and Hart, he has to stay around for a while and find a reason (Fred) to stay once he is flesh again.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 9:42 a.m. CST

    The Masked Man -- I was so hoping it would turn out to be Joss.

    by ILUVmyspike

    My roommate and I have been giggling over the mail clerk the whole seaon. Wow. Props to the writer & director for incorportating The Day of the Dead into this ep. I thought the Mexican wrestling was AWESOME. So much fun. Which is why I never tire of the Buffyverse. Though people argue Angel has lost his edge, I say bullshit. The show isn't as dark this season, that's for sure, but it's still original and funny. And yeah, Wes is SOOOO going to figure out that Angel put the whammy on all of them re Conner. I have a bad feeling they aren't going to understand his motives for doing so. D'oh!

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 9:46 a.m. CST

    Jeffrey Bell

    by godric

    To my surprise, really liked this episode, but I have to say that part of it felt like a Season 6 or 7 X-Files--when Jeffrey Bell worked on that show. Maybe he had the wrestling idea then, never could push it through, and now modified it for Angel. Well, it worked. But it still felt like an X-Files.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 9:48 a.m. CST

    Oh yeah, and the funniest part...

    by godric

    "el roboto diablo" or whatever. Satan has built a robot!

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 9:50 a.m. CST

    Scarecrow has an excellent point

    by ILUVmyspike

    Yeah, now I'm all muddled on what exactly went on last season with the beast. Didn't Angel make it so that only Conner didn't exist? Which I guess doesn't make sense on it's own. And does that mean Jasmine didn't exist? And yeah, didn't the Beast kill everyone at W & H? OK, this is going to be one of those things ME will have to spell out by the end of the season. My head hurts.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 10:03 a.m. CST

    Blood Thinners

    by Rhaegar

    Harmony really should start putting blood thinners in Angel's pigs' blood to help him lose some weight. He's really starting to pork up.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 10:12 a.m. CST

    This episode will prove to be monumentally important as the seas

    by Stoney-321

    My theories, belonging to me, and they are mine: Numero Cinco IS Angel to be: how many brothers? how many of our core group? And he was the last one left, lost his heart, became a hero at the very end. FORESHADOWING. I said it before, and I'll say it again: the BUILDING is the big bad. Maybe the "Senior Partners" are a part of the structure itself. Team Angel works and lives within the building, and I think the SP are going for the sneak attack this way. Next, I bet someone from ME is reading these talkbacks, and they'll do the opposite of the general consesus on who should Shanshu. And am I the only one who wishes there was a little more light in the shots? I can barely make out what's happening on screen.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 10:20 a.m. CST

    4 stars at least!

    by brother.seamus

    That was one of the best standalone eps of any show i've ever seen! Mexican wrestling kicks ass (well technically, it flips ass over and dances around it for a while, then kicks it!) It was all so good: the flashbacks, the pin, the final scene, and of course - El Robitiko Diablo!! I almost pissed my pants when he said that. Perfect deadpan reaction! I must have laughed so hard it scared the folks across the street! Brilliant! (even funnier than "Eve, you and I will stay here and have more sex.") This season of Angel just keeps getting better and better. I give a large portion of the credit to the improvements to Ben Edlund. I hate to say it but I'm glad the live action Tick got cancelled. The real question is, where is Drew Greenberg to kick the season into high gear? I heard he's doing an ep soon.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 11:01 a.m. CST

    El Diablo Robotico!!

    by Fantomex

    thats the episode i want to see

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 11:03 a.m. CST

    Call me crazy

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    But at the end of the series I would like to see Angel wander off as Angelus. It would far more interesting then him suddenly Shanshuing. Maybe have the last episode show him wander off as Angelus and then jump forward a few years to where he a) Becomes Angel and Shanshus b) Becomes carpet dust after killing several member of his old crew.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Is the Shanshu Prophecy really such a great thing?

    by Drath

    They've stopped a lot of apocalypses and no one became human again. So what if the Shanshu prophecy means the actual End of Days, the one where the world actually ENDS! Can't you see them doing that. Angel: "Ah, I can breath again! I can feel the sun!" (sees massive fireball about to consume him as the earth explodes) "Well, Son of a b--(poof)!"

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 11:45 a.m. CST

    stand alone eps

    by purplemonkeydw

    I like this season's structure of Angel. I liked last season's as well. This gives us a well deserved break to clense our pallettes (sp?), and get ready for another huge story arc. Plus, I like being able to see some of the inner workings of W&H. There is a story arc being developed by the way...just sneakier than last my opinion. Good times.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 1:49 p.m. CST

    Did anyone else notice...

    by BearHuntr

    Did anyone else notice that the Wolfram & Hart employee that recruited number 5 was none other than Holland Manners? It said his name on the business card that he handed to him. Stoney, I totally agree that there was a ton of foreshadowing in this episode, especially with the theme of 5 heroes and only one surviving at the end.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 1:59 p.m. CST

    As a matter of fact...

    by brother.seamus

    When the W&H lawyer approached numero cinco, I said, "I bet it's Holland Manners." Sure enough. Glad they referenced him, he was probably the best bad guy in the whole show (next to Darla)

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 2:32 p.m. CST


    by ILUVmyspike

    Didn't you say you've never seen it? Angel has more substance than most non-reality shows on TV.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 6:17 p.m. CST

    Yo Calm_b4_the_strm

    by TheSecondEvil

    Spike hasn't saved the world just once he's helped save it at least three times so there(Buffy - Becoming, The Gift and Chosen). Angel on the other hand has helped save the world only twice(Buffy - The Zeppo and Angel - The Jasmine Arc). The rest of the time he was just defeating the big bad which while a threat wasn't actually a threat to world safety. Now I personally think Angel should get the Shanshu but not until he starts acting more like a proper hero struggling with his decisions rather than a vamp struggling whether to have sprinkles in his otter blood.

  • Nov. 6, 2003, 11:20 p.m. CST

    Lots of good points made...

    by buckna

    Loved the episode, although I agree with those who think we should spend more time with the current characters instead of exploring other new ones. (This was the same argument I was making throughout the final season of Buffy.) IMHO I think they went a little TOO overboard with the story arc's last year and they've had to real it back in to almost season 1 stand-alones. However, they've sprinkled in threads and hints of things to come, which gives me hope. Thankfully this is sweeps month, so if things don't start ratcheting up by the end of the month, then we might have cause for alarm! On the Shanshu, I'm hoping that we don't ever actually see it happening at the end of the series, I would prefer something akin to "All Good Things..." from TNG where we are left knowing that the Fang Gang will continue fighting the good fight together rather than some lame ending trying to tie things up in some grand attempt at a sense of closure.(Like Buffy!) Oh 2nd Evil, Angel has saved the world 3 times! You forgot the Angel Season 2 episode "Happy Anniversary." I guess that puts Spike and Angel at a tie in the world-saving department, but it's a dman safe argument to say that Angel deserves it more as he has saved many more people, stopped way more evil, and even given up his own freaking son! (I'm in the camp that believes the only reason Spike went to get his soul was so he could bone Buffy again, not for redemption!)

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 2:14 a.m. CST

    Spike's Soul

    by howlingdervish

    Spike didn't get his soul so that he could bone Buffy. He got his soul in a Monkey's Paw-style switcharoo. He went to the demon to get the chip out of his head so that he could kill Buffy and raise hell again. The only reason he got his soul back was because he worded his wish poorly.

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 6:18 a.m. CST

    Great eppy

    by ruthie

    It was hilarious! But then, I'm easy to please. The only reason I started watching Angel was because of Spike, but I'm liking the other characters more and more.:)

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 6:47 a.m. CST


    by raw_bean

    personally, I think Spike wanted to believe he was after the removal of his chip, but the demon guy gave him what he TRULY wanted, deep down, to have his soul returned so he could really love Buffy the way she deserved.

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 8:46 a.m. CST

    The devils robot

    by Larry Jay

    They kill the bad guy with a WRESTLING PIN? How cool is that? Whedon has definatly piqued my interest in demonic robots. El Diablo Robotica? Find some way to resurrect that Big Baddy. Funny thing is , the Image I draw up mentally is that of FUTURAMA's Robot Devil. Go figure. Am I alone in this? ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!!!

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 10:09 a.m. CST

    I am the Devil's Robot!!!!

    by ElRoboticoDiablo

    so if wes never took connor and had his throat cut, why is he a gun wielding badass? i always figured that the timeline/memories were altered so that connor didn't return from Kortoth, not that he was never born. the gang never had to get over the distrust of wes? and if not why did he ever sleep with lilah? or did that not happen now? see what happens when you screw with time!

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 11:25 a.m. CST

    I'm with the Robot

    by ILUVmyspike

    ME and the writers are going to have to slowly ease us back into how Angel messed with time. After a while I'm going to stop buying the fact that all seem to be in "loddy doddy Cordy's in a coma and we never talk about it land". And they don't know Conner was ever born, because that's the part Angel slipped up on with Wes. He said something like, haven't we learned our lesson about prophecies in the last couple of years?...The father drinks the blood of the son, etc. Wes didn't know a thing. Anyway, as much as I love the stand alone episodes, they've got to deal with that soon.

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 2:36 p.m. CST

    Angel and Spike and Shanshu

    by salukitoo

    Of course Spike wants to be human more than Angel. Angel was human in the first season, I will remember you, (by a rare demon blood thing) and gave it up! He wanted to be a hero more than being with Buffy. So with that said Spike should get the Shanshu and the girl!

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 6:44 p.m. CST


    by Kirka

    Connor definitely came back from Kortoth; because Angel saw him happy with his new family. Also, I doubt they will 'waste' the prophecy here; but the vampire with a soul who gets to live again could just be as simple as Spike becoming corporeal again.

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 7:21 p.m. CST

    Remember when this used to be a good show?

    by cooper2000

    I cant believe how they have watered down the scripts and characters this season and instead of a dark show its "Whacky." Did they have to agree to do this to get the show renewed? If so, I wish it had ended after season 4. I hear Cordie is coming back for just one episode and where are the story archs?

  • Nov. 7, 2003, 9:31 p.m. CST

    cordy...shanshu...the season over all...

    by Speedstream

    1st of all...there is nothing wrong w/ the show. Yes, in order for it to be renewed, there had to be a different direction the show needed to take. Granted, its different, but it breathes a new breathe of life into it. Especially now that ANGEL has gotten his belief renewed at the end of the Ep. He just got lost in everything. I think now that he had this "encounter w/ heroism" again, he is going to start reverting back to the ANGEL we know and love.>>>Next, this Shanshu thing. ANGEL gave up being human is season 1 because it was the right thing to do. Not because he wanted to play the hero, but because either he or buffy would have died. He did it to save lives...once again, he gave up his own life, the ability to live, to save all those he has for the last 4 seasons. If ANGEL could have had all his powers and still human, i am sure he would have taken he couldn't, he did what was best for EVERYONE...not just he and buffy. Lastly...from what i hear, Cordy will be appearing in episode 100, i believe airing at the end of this month. It is here that they will close the Cordialia arc. There are so many directions Joss could take this...i am afraid to even guess. I look forward to finally seeing how we resolve this. Also, because history has been re-written...i am sure it will give us a glimpse of re-written history, because they'll have to go into how she got there in the 1st place. I hope its not a huge let down is all i have to say. Either way, i would say that thus far, though it has had down points, the season is a success. Cannot wait to see whats cookin up next...later days all...

  • Nov. 8, 2003, 12:44 a.m. CST


    by Randy Giles

    Wolfram And Hart didn't make it so Connor never existed, they just wiped him from everyone's memories. Everything he did, and everything his presence triggered in the Angel universe, still happened. He's just been cut out of the picture. I liked this episode. Nice little folklore and I really like the way Angel's disillusionment has been building up since Connor left, and how it came to a head in this episode. Also, in the next episode, Spike saying "hold on, i have to concentrate" when he is trying to punch out some W&H thug. Shaping up to be a good season, but, god damnit, where's Cordy, indeed? Peace out, dudes.

  • Nov. 8, 2003, 12:47 a.m. CST


    by buckna

    Actually, they came out and said last year that Spike went to get his soul back on purpose (check Herc's posts from last year). The chip out of the head was a red-herring... Also, Spike pretty much revealed to Buffy that that was the reason he went in the third episode of Buffy's season last year (when he does the confession in the church and leans on the cross)....

  • Nov. 8, 2003, 1:10 p.m. CST

    Spike helped save the world in "The Gift" ?????

    by Frank_Serpico

    how exactly did he do that ?? his only purpose in that episode was to go up the tower , get his ass kicked by the doc in 2 seconds and get thrown off .

  • Nov. 8, 2003, 7:38 p.m. CST

    You IDIOTS!

    by Daryl van Horn

    Sorry, I never start a post with name calling but I CAN'T believe there are still people out there who SO DON'T GET what the writers mean. You can like or dislike whatever character you want, but don't say crap that's not true just because you hate Spike or whatever! SPIKE WENT FOR HIS SOUL! Joss has said SEVERAL times in interviews, at conventions, etc, that that whole 'chip' thing was just to throw the AUDIENCE off!! The CHARACTER of Spike went for his soul, KNEW he was going for his soul and when he GOT his soul he got exactly what he wanted! Dear god did you people understand anything ELSE that the writers intended?? And yes he went for his soul for Buffy. Not so 'he could do Buffy' but because he LOVED Buffy. NO he didn't do it for redemption. Yes it was just for her. And guess what? Angel, while soulless would not only never voluntarily get his soul back for redemption he wouldn't EVEN do it 'just for Buffy'. So SHUT UP already! BOTH Spike and Angel are great characters and the things that make them different are as interesting as the things they have in common. BOth pretty much deserve to Shanhu and I couldn't give a frag if NEITHER ever does, because all I want is a GOOD STORY! SORRY for being so pissed but this is really stupidity beyond words. Oh and LAY OFF that 'rapist' crap already! He was SOULLESS! Both him and Angel have raped, tortured and killed hundreds! If we hate them for that we should ALWAYS call BOTH of them "Mr Sadistic Psycho Killer Rapist Torturer" Alright?? Becasue hating Spike for that while he was soulless whiloe defending Angel becomes really funny when you stop to consider that soulless Angel would rape Buffy with a BIG FAT GRIN on his face without ever feeling guilty LET ALONE go for his SOUL! Which is what Spike DID. Ask Joss! And really let BOTH characters just move beyond Buffy know. So MAYBE the audience can follow suit.

  • Nov. 9, 2003, 1:33 a.m. CST

    Both him and Angel have raped

    by Calm_b4_the_Strm

    Yeah they have but see the problem is Angelus is a creature without any remorse or humanity inside of him and a completely different being in every aspect from Angel and Angel offers no justification for his actions as Angelus and continues to make repent.Spike on the other hand was capable of humanity and compassion in his soulless state , as you say yourself loved Buffy , got a soul yada yada and STILL tried to rape her. If Spike ppl like to brag so much about his actions as a soulless demon then be ready to take some crap about his attempted rape too . Signing out ...

  • Nov. 9, 2003, 1:35 a.m. CST

    Next Week ..

    by Frank_Serpico

    the badass that is Wyndham Pryce !! yes . Second only to Angelus in the bad ass stakes . Oh and Spike is a rapist who needs to be staked through the ass with a telephone pole.

  • Nov. 9, 2003, 3:36 a.m. CST

    More Soul Talk

    by howlingdervish

    "Actually, they came out and said last year that Spike went to get his soul back on purpose (check Herc's posts from last year). The chip out of the head was a red-herring... Also, Spike pretty much revealed to Buffy that that was the reason he went in the third episode of Buffy's season last year..." I had just assumed that was his way of spinning things to seem worthy of her.

  • Nov. 9, 2003, 10:53 a.m. CST

    Why would the writers care to spin it?

    by Rogue Slayer

    The writers and creator of the show also said that Spike went for his soul. Yes, I think they over did it on the 'red herring' bit, but it doesn't change the facts. And in Beneath You, I don't think Spike was coherent enough to make up lies to make himself look good. He was pretty much broken.

  • Nov. 9, 2003, 5:39 p.m. CST


    by Jrzlee

    Angel said in this episode that prophecies are unreliable, and says to Wes, remember the one, "the father will kill the son". AS IF THAT DIDN"T HAPPEN!!! In the scene before Connor is shown with his new life and family, Angel went towards Connor as if to kill him, and we never see it, it flahes immediately to Connor with his new family. Indeed, I think the father did kill the son to give him a new life and in turn, as part of the deal, had to take over W&H. Therefore, prophecies are reliable and the Shanshu will come to pass!