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A new project from Michael Moore - SICKO -!!!
Hey folks, Harry here... personally I can't wait to see Michael Moore's FARENHEIT 9/11, I just hope he manages to watch over-manipulating the information, as frankly... it doesn't really need it. The information that's just coming out through the regular media right now about who knew what when... is scary just as is. No matter, I'm curious to see how he handles that material. As for SICKO - a skewering of the Health Care Insurance Industry via a look at Mental Health is very ripe material for Michael.
Hey Harry,
I went and saw Michael Moore speak in downtown Santa Barbara tonight. He spoke on subjects ranging from the war in Iraq to the coming presidential election in 2004. Filled with intelligent politcal opinions, Moore is also a celebrity of the people (He's visiting 39 cities in 23 days). He loves to listen to other people's thoughts and think critically about the important issues politicians need to address (foreign policy, environment, taxes). While he was hesitant to talk of his upcoming film "Farenheit 9/11", he did mention his project following that film. Entitled "Sicko", Moore will comment on Mental Health within the framework of Health Care insurance. Sounds likes another film worth looking out for. Once again I'll have updates on the SB film festival in Feb. for you guys. Thanks for your time.
S.B. Connection
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beef.
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how can anyone respect him or his films anymore?
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Oct 27, 2003 3:20:03 AM CST
"He loves to listen to other people's thoughts and think critica
by graham_minnesota
"He loves to listen to other people's thoughts?" You must be fucking kidding me right? Has this person ever heard the way Michael Moore responds to people who disagree with him? Moore does not listen critically, he spews his radically leftwing invective torwards anyone that even remotely challenges his view points. I do not know if this guy was picked on or bullied by educated, wealthy, white adolescents, but he certainly has problems with white people other than himself. But's what's most interesting about Moore, is that he can make some rather valid points in his argument (too tedious of a task to go into now), but he just ends up alienating people with the way in which he presents his ideas.
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Also can't wait to see 911 doc either. The right wing elite will hopefully get theirs' anyway .
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Oct 27, 2003 3:28:15 AM CST
Michael Moore manipulates his audience, but he is not straight f
by dart voldemort
Moore is not radically leftwing. You are not radically leftwingjust because you are against war and guns. But you are a liar if you are a president and tell your people you have proof for certain things without having said proof.
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Ahhh...
Nothing like getting the wingnuts in a tiff... You can tell it's worked when they start using multisyllabic words (incorrectly, of course). Pay particularly close attention to the way they don't actually refute anything, they just get mad at Mike for saying something in the first place.
Froth away, my loves. Your time is soon due. -
Oct 27, 2003 3:37:35 AM CST
you are a liar if you are a president and tell your people you h
by the data
would george bush not be a liar if he claimed the whole war in iraq was a satire and thus wasnt dependant on truth?
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What do these two "Filmakers" Have in common?
1. Both are filmakers endorsed by this site
2. Both make Propaganda with socialist bent.
Take a look at this site:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
Liberals crack me up. They think that anything that comes out of the news media is fact, when 70% of it is semi researched garbage. Then they tudge forth with these facts, playing detecive to uncover these vast right wing "conspiracies"
Soooo Knowles, when is Mr. Moore going to make a documentary about Clinton's decimation of our intelligence resources?
Yeah, you all probably forgot about that little policy Slick Willy implemented regarding our intelligence field operatives NOT associating with any one suspected of human rights violations (i.e. virtually every single foreign contact we had).
Gee...and I wonder why we couldn't have anticipated two planes taking down the world trade center. ALL OUR SOURCES HAD DRIED UP BY THAT POINT!!!
So now Michael Moore has footage of the Bush family having dinner with the Bin Laden family. So what? We were allies with Bin Laden at one point. But no its all one big greedy power struggle for oil by the Bush and Bin Laden families. I don't think its quite that black and white...but then again I don't believe everything I read either.
Michael Moore is a sham, and an embarassment to real documentarians.
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...Riefenstahl was a maker of nazi films -- not socialist films. Despite the title of national socialism, nazis were right wing extremists, not left wing. Not that it matters. All extremists -- left or right -- are repugnant.
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"All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger, it works the same in any country" -Hermann Goering
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Oct 27, 2003 4:36:36 AM CST
Michael Moore is a sham, and an embarassment to real documentari
by the data
the problem with your argument is that micheal moore never proposed to be a documentarian or somebody who was rightous about the fact that he told the truth while others lied, he has never made dramatic public speeches denouncing others for being fictitious while he himself told the truth and presented the facts in an objectiv....
OH WAIT. -
Okay fine...I was trying to be nice about Riefenstahl her work while propaganda at heart was amazingly done. National SOCIALIST movement became the Nazi party. Do we need to split hairs here? I would say Moore needs to give back his Oscar, but then Costner would need to had over his to Scorsese...NOW THAT was a true disgrace by the academy!
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DocPazuzu, you fail to understand that if you go far enough right or far enough left you come to the same point. nazis were in the best of socialist traditions. In this context, the divide is not between left and right but between consitutional liberals (democrats) and despots.
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On the contrary -- I understand that perfectly. It was more or less my point that extremists, whether to the left or right, are inherently the same. That's why I thinks it's important to describe them by their ideological colors, so that the false assumption that there is only one political direction towards tyranny cannot be propagated.
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When I read that Michael Moore was doing a movie called SICKO, I thought for sure it was going to be a biopic about himself...
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At this point I just want to see how far you kids are willing to go. The majority of talkbackers on this website are young, white males who generally parrot the conservative viewpoints of the mass media. I think it would really jazz up the history books of the future if we just let this nation drift further and further to the right over the next few decades. Privatize everything, make sure there's always a Texas oil tycoon in the White House, and never believe anything unless you hear it from Time Warner, Disney, Viacom, Sony, Microsoft, or Fox.
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i cheer all those on this site who have taken the time to call moore out on his vicious untruths which caused thousands to die. oh, wait, no, his number smudging and percentage loosening only made millions think and laugh. it's those other smug bastards (moore can be a tad pleased with himself and, for all i know, possibly born out out of wedlock. hey it's fun to make things up!)who make up numbers, fudge the facts and then use those lies to attack and destroy human lives (though i am sure some in the current admin. would claim that arab lives really aren't worth living, only liberating). let's see, american's do own too many guns (believe me, one gets the job done unless you've been veeerrry bad), we are war mongering, and we do have a questionably symbiotic love/hate relationship with big corporations. those seem like things that could be told with skewed percentages yet still be valid points to raise. now claiming that we know 100% that a country holds the weapons and the ability to produce weapons which could, nay, will evaporate our whole way of life in a defense budget dollars grab/oil scam/diversion from the real culprits and then waging war against a woefully under equipped regime with 0% capabilites of killing americans unless they are already in their goddamn cities? that seems a bit shady. that seems a tad, how you say? malicious, malevolent, and, to borrow from the hated french, maird. now, let us all get back to what any good mm talkback is about, making fun of his weight while we all scarf down our tenth burrito of the hour. ooh, i hate his fat, unphotogenic face. why can't he look more like, oh i don't know...the rumsie, now there's a face that makes my greedy, corporate fatcat, suv traveling, cheney model pacemaker a rumbling...
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After reading some of these comments i feel physically sick. Go out and buy a freakin clue!
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Did anyone else see the letter to the post in which a parent of one of the children killed at Columbine slammed Moore for making money off the tragedy, and having the nerve to invite the parents of those killed in the tragedy and still try to charge them admission? What a piece of shit.
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There are literally hundreds of websites dedicated to nothing BUT refuting the substance of Moore's lies.
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Oct 27, 2003 6:15:33 AM CST
For the last time, the Nazi's were not right wing - they were so
by vikingkitty
I know it's become commonplace for moron to equate conservatives with Nazis, but in case you geniuses haven't noticed, Nazis are the cousin of today's American left! They talked about the common good, and making sacrifices for the betterment of society, they loved dictators (witness the left's love of Castro) - hell, they were almost Democrats!
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Oct 27, 2003 6:20:50 AM CST
A Capitalist Wolf in Sheep's Clothing (I prefer the title, "A Pi
by vikingkitty
Check out this article from the parent of one of the Columbine victims. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1008341/posts
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What's with all the accusations? "Michael Moore's a liar" I've read that statement more than a few times on this talkback but exactly what is he lying about? I'm confused.. can somebody clear this up with proof maybe? Bowling for Columbine, I felt, had alot of truth to it. I don't want to get into politics but he does make (and prove, mind you) a very valid point.. this country's pretty screwed up right now; so screwed up in fact we don't even know why or we deny this. Just WHY are we (Americans) so different from the rest of the world? Maybe if you mud slingers pondered that for awhile you'd realize the truth and stop calling Michael Moore names. I don't get you people.
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...and thus have NOTHING to do with marxism at all. Vikingkitty, please pick up a book and inform yourself on some of the differences between nazism and socialism, you are obviously totally clueless on this. Socialist would abolish private ownership of industries, said nazis was actually brought into power by owners of privately owned industry, and kept there by privately owned industry, including american industrialists.
You know, just because the word socialist is part of nationalsocialist, doesn -
How enlightening that one obese, self-important, deceptive con artist (Harry) would admire another.
Moore is a narcissitic idiot whose only real goal is self-promotion and lining his pockets. He doesn't give a shit about the truth and has no qualms about lying bald-faced.
Anyone that believes his "documentaries" is a fool. -
Thank you for illustrating my point. In your world, the only path to dictatorship lies on the left. By mislabeling nazis as left-wingers, you can conveniently ignore the equally dangerous road to tyranny on the extreme right. Nazis = Democrats? You're far worse than I thought.
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...There's a way you can put your "theory" to the test. Next time you see a neo-nazi skinhead, walk up to him and tell him what a leftist extremist he is. When you wake up in the emergency ward maybe you will have learned something important.
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Oct 27, 2003 7:01:12 AM CST
It speaks volumes about the American left that they rely upon a
by vikingkitty
I'm referring Moore's totally laughable understanding of the law found in his "book" (and I'm using that term lightly) "Stupid White Men." His grasp on the laws of Florida, as well as federal law and the role of the Supreme Court, could be a comedy routine in and of itself. And you know the best part? When Lou Dobbs attempted to confront him with all the mistakes and lies he's told over the years, he responded that he didn't have to answer those allegations, because he's "a comedian," and those things were said for laughs. Yet the left still idolizes him. Go figure.
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Oct 27, 2003 7:03:50 AM CST
A rebuttal of just a few of Moore's many lies (this one focusing
by vikingkitty
http://www.tsra.com/Bowling2.htm
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Republicans are no more nazis than democrats are communists. You're as nutty as vikingkitty, albeit on the other side.
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Oct 27, 2003 7:08:04 AM CST
Here's a guy who hates Moore not for his views, but just because
by vikingkitty
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/main/about/moore.htm
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Oct 27, 2003 7:18:58 AM CST
Doc, the neo-Nazi skinheads have nothing to do with the original
by vikingkitty
The neo-Nazi movement is more about national pride than anything (though it also incorporates hatred of everything that isn't of their beloved "Aran heritage"); they don't have the political agenda of the true Nazis, who were all about socialism.
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HE didn't have to put the guilt trip on Heston, the guys a fucken old man, and heston was nice enough to have that big fat sack of shit to his house and moore turned on him.
FUCK moore, he can have opinions, but if everything in this country is a fucken conspiracy do 1 of the 2 things. Find religion, Or get the fuck out of the country. -
Oct 27, 2003 7:23:15 AM CST
Doc Pazuzu, it doesn't really matter how skinheads self-identify
by fluffyunbound
The simple fact of the matter is that the basic tenet of the Nazi ideology is that the individual was of absolutely no consequence, and existed to serve the "race" through the vehicle of the state. Institutions like the churches, the family, and private property were tolerated not for their own sake but because it was believed that these mediating structures helped the individual serve the state, and therefore the race, better. The forms of a liberal, bourgeois state were maintained, but served only to paper over a profound political collectivism, wherein if the state decided that it was necessary for your property to be seized or for you to die at any particular moment to serve the common good, that was it - you were done. What, exactly, do you think a society would look like, if it was built around the idea that service and duty to the common good are obligations that utterly trump individual autonomy? The difference between the Nazis and the Bolsheviks was cosmetic and boils down to how the membership of the all-important "group" is defined: the Nazis were more atavistic. But the difference between BOTH of those groups and our modern, "lite" collectivists on both sides of the political spectrum is that the Nazis and Communists actually believed in their own ideologies and tried to put them into practice. They took collectivism seriously, and were willing to go farther to demonstrate that than just chasing the chairman of GM around aimlessly.
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He represents a lot of what is good about America. Too many people are confused about "the truth" because they want it to bend their way. The Bush family is very old and powerful. Our current President isn't qualified for the job because he simply isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and his religious beliefs severely cloud his judgment. His father was qualified for the job, he in fact was the head of the CIA for seven years, but he was one of the worst Presidents ever in office. Rumsfeld and Cheney have been sputtering arounf for forty years stirring shit up, and not for the good of the American people. Michael Moore isn't fighting for his "side" or cause, he just wants information to get to the people that they aren't getting. I admit that I don't care for Right-wing politics because too much of it is telling other people how they should live. I am so sick of the polarized state of our country. Americans are either getting dumber or we are just in the saddest place in our history. Why shouldn't we all agree to disagree and find middle ground, because people like Bill O`Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Rush Limbaugh want us to fight, argue and complain. As far as I'm concerened, Michael Moore is just fighting back against this hate rhetoric these ass-heads spew. I love America, but I am sick of people like George W. Bush screwing it up, and watching ignorant, rabid hyenas defend him blindly. Let's get something straight, I'll vote for a Democrat or a Republican if he or she can do the job, but I would never vote for George W. Bush because I have done enough homework to know that this guy doesn't care about the average man in this country. I know for a fact that Wesley Clark is probably a republican, but I'll vote for him because he is better than the guy in office. God bless Michael Moore for showing us what a bunch of gun-toting idiots we are, and I'll kiss his feet if he exposes Bush for the lying, criminal that he is. Right or Left, we all need to question things a lot more. If you think Moore is a liar, why don't you make a documentary on it. Stop spweing the rhetoric you got from your parents, school and work and find out the truth for yourself. It's not black and white like Bush wants to believe, and it isn't simple. We need to stop bitching and each other though, because America is starting to look awfully embarrassing to the rest of the world. Let's show `em we are a strong nation and that we can work together, despite our belief differences. Can we do that? Awesome, because I am really sick of the shrill, whine emulating from your collective mouths. Michael Moore is doing something positive and he's getting people to think, and question, even if you don't agree with him. That's America.
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He's selling his fucking book, you moron. As long as the people buy his book at no discount for him to sign, he'll love them all. Hopefully the press will do a better job with calling him out on his next film - because "Bowling For Columbine" might have been the first work of fiction to win Best Documentary.
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unfortuneately, i'm not sure everyone got it. much appreciated from this end though. I think you all should stop trying to argue whether this is left or that is right, or the difference between conservatives, republicans, national socialism and nazis... whether you like moore or not, i think its undeniable that he stops people in thier tracks and there aren't enough people that do that. One thing i found disgusting was there was an episode of question time on BBC1 that was broadcast from the states and micheal moore was on the panel. He bashed Bush for the lies surrounding the oil debate/iraq "war"/9-11 and this one guy got up and (i'm paraphrasing) said "hey dickwad, you dont like America, then get the hell out!". And everyone cheered. That's just fucking naive. Moore's response was, "If you love a country, you should question the motives of those in charge. It is far more patriotic to act for the good of your country than to simply wave the flag and sing the song." Or something like that. I think, whether you agree with Moore's arguments or not and whether you like him or not, thats a damn good point and he is a far better American ambassador to the rest of the world than many other yankee poster boys. Okay, give it to me...
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I love Democrats getting their panties in a bunch over being called Nazis. Because what is the first instinctive insult that liberals hurl? "Bush is a Nazi!" Fuckers.
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That's EXACTLY what I wanted to say. Bravo
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I wonder about what all the fuss is about with this lying fraud. It is true that he is a perpetrator of documentaries that have a, at best, tenuous relationship with objective reality. But he hasn't really persuaded anyone outside a narrow left wing elite. His Columbine picture, for instance, seems to have had an opposite effect on the gun issue. The Democrats have largely abandoned gun control as an issue. The facts do not support it. It is a loser with the voters.
I suspect this con artist film maker will continue to line his own pockets with lying "documentaries", maintain his pose as a "working class hero", while treating the hoi paloi like dreck, and generate a lot of fun controversy. What he will not do, one iota, is to affect the debate on any issues his "films" are obstenively about.
Oh, and by the way, did anyone hear about how Moore invited the parents of the Columbine victems to a special showing of his flick and then charged them admission. Not only a fraud, but a cheap fraud it seems. -
If you were to somehow travel back in time to Berlin in 1938 and call a nazi a left-winger to his face, you'd end up in jail or dead -- no matter what you think the differences are between them and modern neo-nazis.
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That nazis and communists have a lot in common in their basic ideologies (the complete lack of an individual's worth, etc), but to solely describe those values as "socialist" or "fascist" is just not fair. Marx and Lenin did not invent that view of how society should be controlled -- and neither did Hitler for that matter, but to put one single label on totalitarian tendencies is to give the OTHER road (be it left or right) a chance to reach the same goals of oppresion. I believe, as a modern democratic citizen in a free country, that it's my obligation to lash out at the extremists on both ends so as not to make one type of fanatic seem more advantageous over the other. The battle remains the same, however: freedom vs. tyranny.
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Oct 27, 2003 7:55:31 AM CST
Well has anyone read Stupid White Men (and other sorry excuses f
by avon
That isn't based on lies, but on facts and figures and stuff Michael read and more than a few opinions on them. Everyone should just be thankful he wrote that one book and stop bitching about him being this big fat capitalist liar which he clearly is not. He has the interests of the average joe at heart, the person who doesn't give a shit about politics nor the state of the country, which, lets face it is the vast majority of the countries population. People should be thankful to him for exposing the shitty state of the country when no one else will. Yet he is dismissed for it as a liar. Well his information is based on fact and if he does manipulate his information to make the fuckers look worse (which I'm sure is a feat in itself) then what's people's problems with this? I hope he fucks Junior over big in his new movie and THAT will be based on fact AND his opinions like any of you motherfuckers on this talkback.
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all the people who says that Moore's unable to defend himself obviously haven't read this:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/
Those other sites 'prooving' that he's a lier get their facts from different sources to him, when you use different sources you naturally get different figures.
my favourite on that 'Michael moore is lying!!!' site is this quote:
Bowling shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy, while Moore scornfully intones that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972."
The plaque actually reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972." This is pretty mild compared to the rest of Bowling, but the viewer can't even trust Moore to honestly read a monument
So because he's a pilot he doesn't count as a person then?(and before you say it Migs were sold by Russia to many countries)
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Ah, all you have to do is mention Michael Moore and the talkbackers immediately show their age (be it mental or physical). I wish I could force myself to stop reading talkbacks. I fucking hate old, conservative geeks (or geeks that sound old because they get all of their opinions on politics from their parents), but I guess I just can't help but infuriate myself by reading this shit. Stick to Star Trek and give the platform back to people with something to say.
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blow Michael Moore. He couldn't find the truth if it smacked him in the face.
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Oct 27, 2003 9:03:51 AM CST
As expected, the TB is overrun by whining conservative fuckheads
by minderbinder
Have fun boys, I have no time for your pathetic bleating.
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Again with the right wing commentary. Isn't it enough that you already own most of the media outlets in this country? Isn't it enough that you continue to lie and obfuscate your way into the american home? The neo-conservatives have bamboozled you all. You think this is about America, its not. This is all about the Neo-conservative agenda and the dismantling of the American way of life. Micheal Moore has told the truth. Not only in his movies but his books as well ("Stupid White Men" should be required reading for any real American.) The fact is Neo-cons and right wingers are NOT good Americans. They just want to bully everyone into thier way of thinking. Forget free speech, forget civil and human rights. John Ashcroft would have made one heck of a Nazi. And for all of you NASCAR dads (the current most sought after demographic) if you think that Bush and his Ilk are for America and for you, you're wrong. Your wallet ain't deep enough buddy.
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What is the difference between an a "neoconservative" and the garden variety American conservative?
And Obscure Reference, could you check if the construction of "death chambers" for Muslims at Guantanamo has detered Muslim immigration to the U.S. It doesn't seem to have done so for some reason. -
Oct 27, 2003 12:16:08 PM CST
Michael Moore is a huckster who never lets facts get in the way
by jjmnolte
LIE: The Lockheed-Martin facility depicted in the film is presented as a manufacturer of weapons of mass destruction. (TRUTH: the facility produces rockets for launching satellites)
LIE: The NRA is callous to gun slayings. (TRUTH: the evidence distorted to reach this infactual end is expansive. The sequence in Bowling in which Charlton Heston gives a defiant pro-gun speech in Denver is edited to unbelievable distortion. The fiery "cold dead hands" statement was not even made in Denver, but a YEAR after the Denver (annual NRA members' meeting) in Charlotte, North Carolina. Compare Bowling's version of the Heston speech in Denver to REALITY
LIE: The impression is given in Bowling that the NRA and the KKK were (are?) parallel groups - or more likely, that when the Klan was outlawed, the NRA filled its shoes. (TRUTH: Charlton Heston is NOT a racist, as alleged in Bowling. Heston involved himself in the civil rights movement in the early 60's while the issue was still too hot for Hollywooders concerned about their careers. He also helped Martin Luther King break the Hollywood color barrier that existed at that time. After its founding in New York by two Union Officers, the NRA itself has a long and comprehensive history of aligning itself in diametrical opposition to racism and the KKK.)
LIE: Moore sympathizes with the "little boy" at Buell Elementary in Michigan who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school to kill a girl. Moore says "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl". (TRUTH: The "little boy" was the class bully and was already suspended for stabbing another child with a pencil. Since that incident, the "little boy" also stabbed another kid with a knife. Also- the "uncle's house" was a neighborhood crack house. The uncle and the "little boy's" father were, at the time, serving time for theft and cocaine possession. His aunt earned her living from drug dealing. The gun was stolen by one of the uncle's customers and purchased by him in exchange for drugs.
LIE: Bowling makes note of $245 million that the U.S. gave to the Taliban government of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001 and then proceeds to illustrate the alleged "result" by showing planes hitting the twin towers. (TRUTH: The $245 million in aid was given through the U.N. and non-governmental organizations to relieve the famine that existed in Afghanistan at that time.
LIE: Bowling showcases a dramatic comparison of gun homicide stats from various countries. (TRUTH: The numbers don't add up - click here)
LIE: In Bowling, Moore enters a WalMart in Ontario, Canada to purchase, with ease and without being identified, several boxes of ammunition. (TRUTH: Canadian officials have indicated that the purchase, as depicted in the movie, is either fake or illegal)
LIE: Moore shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy, and sadly announces that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972." Interestingly enough, Moore's camera only lets you see the plaque from a distance sufficient enough to render the plaque impossible to read. (TRUTH: The inscription on the plaque is: "Dedicated to the men and women of the Strategic Air Command who flew and maintained the B-52D throughout its 26 year history in the command. Aircraft 55,003, with over 15,000 flying hours, is one of two B-52's credited with a confirmed MIG kill during the Vietnam conflict. Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of "Diamond Lil" shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during "Linebacker II" action on Christmas eve 1972.")
Nice tries Mike.
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While the Nazi Party received a large percentage of the vote in the November 1932 elections, Hitler himself had lost the May 5 presidential election to Hindenburg. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by Hindenburg in January 1933, but not personally elected. The Bush/Hitler wisecrack does make for good agitprop, though.
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Oct 27, 2003 1:02:51 PM CST
Bill Maher, I doubt there is a topic even tangentially related t
by fluffyunbound
Your conceptualization of the "left" and "right" is extremely provincial. The composition of political parties, like all factions, is largely a function of the exigencies of the moment - but ideology is plain enough. The Nazis were collectivists - of this there is absolutely no doubt and no dispute. Now, you collectivists might find the petty distinctions you draw between yourselves to be important, but from the other side of the divide you are all essentially interchangeable. Menshevik, Bolshevik, Trostskyite, Hitler-faction Nazi or Roehm-faction Nazi - they may have hated each other, but there is plenty of documentary evidence that they each considered themselves the "true" Socialism. It is natural enough that Hitler banned the works of Marx - if Coca-Cola took over the country in a putsch, I'm sure their first move would be to ban Pepsi.
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People like you who equate modern, yet flawed, democratic nations and some of their policies to either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union are beneath contempt. You dishonor the brave men and women who either fought to bring those regimes down or had to endure their rule. Moral relativism -- the last great bastion of cowardice and ignorance.
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Oct 27, 2003 2:05:30 PM CST
Michael Moore is no worse than hundreds of other conservative co
by 007-11
He's yet to really outright lie like Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly. I won't say he hasn't manipulated some things, but for the most part, THE REALLY IMPORTANT POINTS, not some bullshit like making it look like Charleton Heston showed up in days rather than weeks or months, are entirely fact based and backed up.
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I think that the point here is not whether or not the definition of socialism (be it collectivism, patriotism or whatever moniker you choose) fits Nazis - but how the rise of the particualr brand of Nazi socialism came to be - which was through partnership with the seemingly inappropriate industrial power base - traditionally the foundation of the 'right' - or capitalism. One would think that they would avoid a collectivist approach that would shorten their influence. Yet they did not - because, of course, it did nothing of the sort. Wealthy industrialists were niether stripped of their wealth or power within the confines of Germany's 'socialist' agenda - in much the same way that the Russian party elite basically mirrored the attendance at pre-Revolution economic counsels. Socailism was broadly applauded and applied in search of the common man's favour and was designed tp appeal to him, yet it was a lip-service approach that I think we can all relate to with our own experiences with modern political rhetoric. By and large - 'socialist' Nazis were simply patrotic wealthy industrialists looking for their place in the burgeoning superpower - not unlike certain folk today. But to make the assumption that the path to tyranny is somehow shorter with socialism than through capitalism (which we can argue is no any more 'real' than the socialist lip-service employed when its outcome is desired) fails to address the numerous other mitigating factors that forsaw the second rise of German (Paris Peace Conference being chief among them) and is not only factually incorrect, but in my opinion, dangerously self-serving and one serves to ensure the doom of potential repetition.
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Check out this story about Moore:
www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1441_A_1006907_1_A,00.html
He's sold more books in Germany than in the U.S.A! That fact alone tells me enough about this buffoon.
This also adds fuel to the fire in one world changing debate: Germans love David Hasselhoff.
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First off, Iraq is NOT another Vietnam. Those who say so obviously have no concious thought of their own. All it takes is a look at FACTS to see that it's not. Vietnam lasted about seven years, and many tens of thousands of American soldiers died. Iraq will last MAYBE two to three years, and several hundred Americans have died. Wow. Looks like another Vietnam to me. And this is not a Bush Fundamentalist Holy War. There's yet another spoon-fed lie that gets swallowed up by the vacuous imbeciles that will believe anything if it's anti-Bush. Bleat on, little sheep. Constructive criticism can be a good thing, but blind hatred is not. That's where Moore comes in.
Michael Moore is like the Rush Limbaugh for the left, only worse. People may agree with his points, but many try to distance themselves from him due to his slanting and distortion. He twists, bends, and even manufactures "facts" to get support. If you would like to see handguns get more restrictions, fine, but don't use Michael Moore as your source. There are more credible organizations for that kind of thing. Check out www.bowlingfortruth.com. Shows all the lies and spin that were in Bowling for Columbine. And I don't want to hear about how it won an Oscar. The Academy Awards mean diddly squat. When lousy movies like The Hours and not so great movies like Far from Heaven get nominations, you know that it's not about good acting, directing, or writing anymore. It's all about politics. Movies are made to be Oscar grabs these days because they tell the bozos at the Academy Awards what they want to hear.
Moore is NOT a champion of the common man, as some would put it. He slams rich people for not helping the poor, among other things, yet the fat tard lives in a 1.26 million dollar penthouse in New York, charges huge amounts for speaking engagements, and gets REALLY pissed if he doesn't get his dough. Just take a look at what he did at a speaking engagement in the UK. When something went wrong and he didn't get all the money he wanted, the guy threw a temper tantrum and even insulted waiters in the establismnet, calling them common and worthless. Some champion. He's not out to help anyone but himself. He uses his political schtick as a way of making money.
I'm just waiting for that fat fucker to hit critical mass and collapse into a singularity. -
I find it difficult to rationalize in the same manner as you - looking for moral consistency is one thing (and I doubt that the very best of us can withsatnd severe scrutiny) - but to say that Moore's credibility is in question because he enjoys the money he makes from his 'common man' projects is hardly water-tight. Moore has never advocated an anti-capitalist stance. He is anti-corporate. He independently produces his own films and sells them for distribution. Hardly inconsistent. He derides the fact that the wealthy elite are in public office because they are in public office - unlike him. It would be more consistent of you to chastize him for not running for office (and then consequently being a wealthy elitist), rather than complaining about the money he makes as a private citizen. You see the distinction? Moore is not in a position where the power of office is a by-product of his shouting. He seems to not have that as an interest - hence his credibility in questioning the agenda of those that are is not questioned by his success. In terms of your position on the inflexibility of the moral left, I would agree that this element certainly exists. Yet, I am hard-pressed to believe that the often religious certainty that plagues the right is overshadowed by the left. If your point was to expose intolerance on both parts then I would agree. But to champion one over the other is confusing to me. Are we making morally relativist claims? Is consistency of character more important than idea? Personally I feel that this partisan sabre-rattling is the chief cause of domestic impotence on the part of the US anyway. But people like to identify with their favorite brands, so it's understandable. You seem smart - why propgate it?
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"Roger and Me" is not about anyone running for any public office. Even the title makes it plain - we are talking about the relationship between two individuals. The theme of "Roger and Me" is, simply, that because GM was profitable and had money, they were morally obligated to provide manufacturing employment to the people of Flint, Michigan. Their failure to perform their duty in this instance led Mr. Moore to believe that he was entitled to hound and chastise GM's chairman. Therefore, Mr. Moore is not a hypocrite because his views are from the left; he is a hypocrite because, since his own personal enterprises are profitable, and since he has money, it would seem that HE TOO is now morally obligated to provide manufacturing employment for the people of Flint, Michigan - but naturally no such employment is forthcoming. If other people enter into a position of moral obligation due to their monetary success, why doesn't Moore? Why isn't Moore a "stupid white guy", since he apparently has not yet been smart enough to figure out how to provide high paying employment to low skill workers? Mr. Moore feels that other people are stupid because they haven't solved that particular problem - but he doesn't apparently feel obligated to demonstrate how easy it is to do it, with his own considerable capital.
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Excellent post. Thanks for so clearly illustrating the fundamental differences between socialism and nazism for the misguided.
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Oct 27, 2003 5:51:41 PM CST
Michael Moore can suck fat dick and still not get full
by super cucaracha
just like Rush Limbaugh. FAT FUCKS!
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Oct 27, 2003 5:59:57 PM CST
Anyone can manipulate the truth, liberal or conservative. Michae
by lostnseenile
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Oct 27, 2003 6:12:23 PM CST
BOTH MICHAEL MOORE AND RUSH LIMBAUGH CAN SUCK A FAT DICK AND STI
by super cucaracha
Those motherfuckers are so full of themselves and they never shut the fuck up. Always bitching and they never try to run for an office. FUCK THEM AND THEIR MOMS BEEEATCHES!...and it's funny how most radical thinking sons of bitches are fat fucks (nothing against you Harry).
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FUNDAMENTALLY, all collectivisms are the same, and Weedy's post did nothing to dispute that simple observation. Contingently, there are individual elements to the intrawar historical experience in Germany that make Nazism unique, and Weedy's post demonstrates that quite nicely - but that would be the case with ANY comparison of different regimes. At the level of granularity Weedy is using, no regime is like any other, and each is specifically itself. That would simply mean that Nazism isn't socialism because, well, NOTHING is actually socialism, and nothing ever can be; everything can only be looked at in its own context. Particularism of this kind has its own merits but doesn't really help us make comparisons. And besides, since the essence of Weedy's argument is that the managerial class in Germany latched on to the Nazi ideology in an attempt to gain power and to maintain their positions of privelege, I would say in response that I don't dispute that. But there is still an ideology there which, in and of itself, bears examination. Why did that ideology lend itself to a totalitarian system? Because of its collectivist aspects. The "road to dictatorship" may not be demonstrably shorter via the American left than via the American right, but it sure as heck is demonstrably shorter through collectivist ideologies [of any kind] than through individualist ideologies [of any kind]. It is analyses which do not acknowledge this that are the ones that are self-serving. Frankly, the fact that the Nazi ideology was hijacked by industrialists, junkers, and radical academics doesn't matter - even in its UNHIJACKED state, it was still an abomination. If Roehm kills Hitler before Hitler kills Roehm, do we get a good outcome in Germany in the 30's and 40's? Probably not. If Roehm had proved himself competent and physically healthy, we probably end up with something worse, since the best thing you can say about Hitler is that we are lucky he was a military idiot who got lucky in 1940 but who shortened the war considerably by his own megalomania. We might not have been so fortunate with someone else - someone more faithful to the "Worker's Party" aspects of the NSDAP - in his place.
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You are failing to get the attention that you want. The point that you are trying to make is useless when nobody reads them people. Masturbation or a good fuck are the cure for your stress...TRY THEM AND YOU WILL BE SET FREE!
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Oct 27, 2003 6:49:19 PM CST
I can't wait for his next project: Bowling For I'm-A-Crappy-Film
by magyarman
Luckily, unlike those left-wing douche-bags, I don't have to resort to references to Michael Moore's weight instead of his political views (reference to Rush Limbaugh) in order to prove that he is a complete dumbass.
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Oct 27, 2003 6:50:29 PM CST
I can't wait for his next project: Bowling For I'm-A-Crappy-Film
by magyarman
Luckily, unlike those left-wing douche-bags, I don't have to resort to references to Michael Moore's weight instead of his political views (reference to Rush Limbaugh) in order to prove that he is a complete dumbass.
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Oct 27, 2003 6:50:34 PM CST
I can't wait for his next project: Bowling For I'm-A-Crappy-Film
by magyarman
Luckily, unlike those left-wing douche-bags, I don't have to resort to references to Michael Moore's weight instead of his political views (reference to Rush Limbaugh) in order to prove that he is a complete dumbass.
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I hate both of them and one of them is a liberal and the other a conservative. I just don't like radical, paranoid idiots. I am a pervert though.
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"And another thing, if you don't know what a neocon is, look it up, I'm not your mother."
Thank God. Seriously though, with all the verbiage you produce, you can't spare another few lines? I hear the term "neoconservative" used as a pejorative so often, I wonder if anyone who uses it knows what it means. -
I never said that the deaths in Iraq were not tragic. They are. It's a damned shame. But if you take a look at the raw numbers, you'll find that there were A LOT more killed in 'Nam. Even at the current rate, by the time we pull out of Iraq, the death toll wont be anywhere close. I'm not trying to downplay the deaths at all, both American and Iraqi. I'm comparing numbers, and the numbers are clear: Iraq is NOT another Vietnam. You say learn from history. Iraq and Nam are very, very different countries and situations. Yes, both include Geurilla warfare, but that's pretty much where the similarities end. Boykin is a nut. We can agree on that much. Does Boykin's ramblings have ANYTHING to do with Bush's beliefs? I didn't think so. I've felt for some time now that Rush is a pompous windbag, and I was laughing at him when I found out he was a junkie. In reference to the Oscars, I was showing that Moore winning an Oscar means diddly squat. The Oscars have become a political award. And you obviously didn't take much of a look at the site I showed. The article about Moore throwing a tantrum was on us.imdb.com, but they don't seem to keep news archives. However, I did get a copy of it from another site. Enjoy: ***********American satirist Michael Moore has stormed out of Britain after a bust up with the London theatre hosting his one-man show. The Bowling For Columbine moviemaker performed Michael Moore - Live! to packed audiences for two months before Christmas at The Roundhouse in Camden, North London. But on the penultimate night he reportedly flew into a rage, verbally attacked everyone associated with the theatre because he thought he wasn't being paid enough. During the performance he complained he was making just $750 a night. A member of the stage crew says, "He completely lost the plot. He stormed around all day screaming at everyone, even the
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OK, lets do this as simply as possible...
Is Moore a liar? Look at the evidence, and the evidence says a resounding YES. He blurs the lines between being a documentarian and spewing propaganda.
Is Bush a liar? Look at the evidence...never thought to do that huh? That's because THERE IS NO HARD EVIDENCE he has ever been anything but truthful. WMD's? Funny that Clinton and all of the 9 dwarves just a few years ago said that Iraq was a threat because of their WMD capacity...besides, you ought to read the fucking WMD report that just came out, not the news about the report mind you, read the ACTUAL report. You guys just keep drinking the Kool-Aid you're being spoonfed by the powers that be and you don't even think for once you may be wrong...have you ever considered that you may be wrong about Bush? You may not like him, you may hate him for some reason, but that doesn't make him a liar. Stolen election? Old news, he won each and every recount done in the post mortem. Court won it for him? No, the Florida supreme court violated the Florida constitution by cowtowing to Gore and changing the law just for him, the US supreme court trumped their call...courts cannot make laws, they can only rule on them. You emotionally may not like him, and that's fine...hell, I didn't like Clinton, but that doesn't mean that you can be intellectually dishonest with yourselves, make some shit up about Bush, then claim it as an unchallenged truth.
Feel free to express your Bush hatred, but don't stoop to lying about him. If the Dems don't have anything better than dishonesty to get into the white house, perhaps you'd better spend your efforts at helping to formulate some kind of policy other than ranting like children about fantasized scandals.
Wanna get Bush out of office? Come up with a better policy than him. Watch the Dem debates if you haven't already (I have) and you'll see what I'm refering to...they do nothing but bash Bush; however, not one iota of real policy has come forth from their debates...nothing. All you get is 'I wouldn't have voted if I knew...' and 'I would've involved a coalition'. Well, whether you knew or not, what are you going to do NOW? There is no answer to that, just bashbashbash. Same goes for the coalition statements...hey guys, isn't that what the UN is? They sure helped out a lot.
Bush bash all you want, but realize that you need some substance to go with it if you are to be taken seriously -
Michael Moore hugely distorted the facts of Bowling for his own political agenda. Real reporting, while not always balanced, tries to be. And for all you nitwits out there who believe that Bowling makes a valid point, you're not really paying attention. It falls apart under minor scrutiny. It's amazing how up in arms liberals get when one of there golden boys is called a liar. They wont even research an accusation. It pretentious and egotistical. They are never wrong, why that's impossible. I also find it amusing how liberals bitch about the deficit, yet the recall election was a vast right wing conspiracy to oust Gray Davis and seize control. Hypocrites.
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You know what? I like Michael Moore. I think he
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All of VikingKitty's cut and pasted arguments refuted.
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because he acts like a buffoon and makes an ass out of himself with his liberal propaganda. And if I hear one more person call "Bowling for Columbine" a documentary I'm going to blow their fucking head off. That movie was as far from documenting what really happened as Moore is from turning down a ho-ho. Its true....
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But, if the rate is $1 billion a week and climbing, that comes to about $160 billion (I'm sure it'll be more though) of our money to fight a war which has a constantly changing goal. First it was - "They're the terrorists that brought down the towers!!" Then, it was - "We're in danger because they'll launch WMD's in 15 minutes!!!" Then, it's - "We have to find Saddam, his sons and 49 other people and take them out. Where's that deck of cards?!?" Then, it was - "We need to free the Iraqi people. Who cares about the terrorists and the WMD's? It's all about the people." Now, it's - "We need to reinvigorate the economy of Halliburton by giving them billions in "no-bid" contracts while our troops die for absolutely nothing" Seriously, is it worth all the money and death to "rebuild Iraq"? I suppose it should be since we bombed the shit out of their country with our "shock and awe" on Prime Time News every night for a month. Uugh. That shit ain't right. I guess I should be glad that I live somewhere that nobody can fly over me with a Stealth bomber and blow up the TV station next door to me and maybe take my parent's room with it. Thank you George Bush. Thank you very much. Do you read this stuff? http://www4.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/13/sprj.irq.ali/ http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df10242003.html http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-02-iraq-cost-usat_x.htm http://slate.msn.com/id/2089471/
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to shut these stupid troglodites from making even more asses of themselves. I know lots of people who check out these talkbacks, hoping to catch a political dogfight where these anti-critical gun-stroking Bush apologists mouth off on anybody who offends their prejudices, instead acting like court jesters with the world as audience. Read Moore's response. Watch the movie again. Learn a few things. Or. Lobotomize on FOX. Be. A pig. In a cage. On antibiotics.
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Okay, yes, Michael Moore is a liar. Well, maybe not a liar, but he certainly destorts the facts. And he certainly doesn't mind making just as much money as the fat cats he criticizes. But you know what? SO HAS EVERY OTHER INFLUENTIAL POPULIST IN HISTORY! Upton Sinclair wasn't above the facts and manipulating his audience when he wrote "The Jungle". Nor did he object when the book started raking in cash. Oh, and can we get a few things straight about Bush, Moore, Clinton, and America's political parties? ................................................. (1) Bush is a LIAR. That's not rhetoric, nor is it conjecture. You want a couple of examples of him lying? Fine. Earlier in his adminstration, when Enron went down, Bush at first denied being at all familiar with Ken Lay. That was bull - they'd been close for years. Second example? The infamous "yellow-cake uranium from Nigera". Bush did indeed know that this information was false. He may not have known it when he made the his state of the union address. The husband of our recently outed CIA operative was dispatched to Nigeria to investigate the claim, and reported in no uncertain terms that it was false. Bush swept him under the carpet, and made no effort to make his mistake public. Now for the conjecture: Unless I am very much mistaken, Bush has lied about more than that. I'll wager a substantial amount of money right now that Bush will either refuse to give the Senate comittee those 9/11 documents they are requesting, or he'll hand them over with really large sections blacked-out. ......................................................... (2) I would remind those who criticize Moore for endorsing Democrats who are just as corrupt as their Republican counterparts than Moore has little use for the Democratic party. He was very hard on Clinton while he was in office, and only supports Democrats in elections because of his distaste for Republicans running the country. .............................................................(3) Clinton's presidency is severly overrated. No arguments there. His first years in office were a disaster, and it's only because he got lucky and served during the 90s technology bubble that he left office as popular as he did. But the Bush administration is hardly doing a better job. He made a bad economy worse with his absurd tax-cuts (trickle-down economics has NEVER worked, and in all likelihood never will). And he hasn't done any better than Clinton on stopping terrorism. Sure, Bush made a lot of noise about getting Bin Laden, but last time I checked the only thing we did was force him to relocate. The only thing the Afghanistan war accomplished was killing a few of Bin Laden's right-hand men, and desposing of the Taliban. (Temporarily. Talaban supporters have already recaptured areas around Kandahar, and neither the US nor the UN seems to keen to send troops out of Kabul to stop them.) As long as Bin Laden's cash flow remains unstopped, Al Qaeda will have no problems whatsoever in carrying on. And stopping that cashflow would require interfering in Saudi Arabia - a country Bush will never touch. He has too many friends there. (4) Stop calling the Democrats "liberals" and the Republicans "conservatives". Conservatives believe in protecting ordinary people from big government. Yet many Republicans feel they have the right to dictate whether a woman can get an abortion, and whether a man can marry another man. They also apparently feel that they have a right to know what library books I've been reading. Republicans aren't conservatives; they're reactionaries. The Libertarians are the real conservatives, just as the Greens are the real liberals. Democrats are centrists with all of the worst tendancies of the left-wing, plus a good deal of bad tendacies from the right-wing.
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listen, i am so sick of these neverending internet discussions that start about iraq and bush, and then descend into this left vs. right argument. that has nothing to do with it. only one thing does: who is in power now, and what THEY are doing. and the utterly undeniable fact is that the person in there now, doing these deeds, is a dictatorial monster who will never, repeat never, repeat NEVER EVER EVER EVER do anything that does not give him or his buddies a cold hard MONETARY PROFIT.
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Trick question, they're equally repulsive.
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Ok, while I am a liberal, I don't hold Michael Moore to be the savior that many of my leftie friends do. That being said, I am a little curious about all the downright malicious attacks on him stated here and elsewhere. If he is such a liar, and wrong about so many of the issues he tackles, if he really is just a stupid, misinformed, personal-agenda seeking, lying liar, why hasn't he had his fat ass sued off? Surely if he is slandering and lying about Bush, the NRA, big businesses, and rich, white conservatists in general, someone somewhere must've thought to take out a lawsuit by now. Christ, Fox wasted no time going after Al Franken for part of the title to his book. Granted, the suit was thrown out, but in this lawsuit-happy land we call America, the fact that no one has succeeded or even attempted one on the oh-so-hated Moore, scoorge of the right, seems odd to me. And he isn't new to the game either. He's been apparently lying and making fiction documentaries since the late 80's. While I liked Bowling for Columbine, I don't think it should've won for best documentary (Winged Migration was really cool), but, I don't think it would've gotten so many peoples undies in a bunch if it didn't hold some valid points. Anyway, that's my little contribution to this, umm, conversation.
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You are horribly ignorant. Just because NAZI was an acronym that included the word "socialist" it does not mean left wing. They were as far right as you can get, dude. You need to educate yourself a bit about it before you spout off about something you know very little about. Socialists want to abolish private ownership and focus on the sharing of resources and capital. The Nazis, on the other hand, fostered coporate control of industry as well as wealth (which any socialist would abhor). Also, power rested with one person whereas in true Socialism this would never be the case. I think you've taken a lot of heat for the comments you made comparing socialists with Hitler, and I think it's well earned. I hope the many posts you've received had helped to educate you.
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Despite his flaws as president, Clinton has done some very good work since he left office. Last week the Clinton Foundation negotiated the price of a 3-drug regimen for third-world AIDS victims down to 40 cents a day. (In other words, with not very much money and no political authority, Clinton has probably saved more lives in the long run this year than Bush has, all his bluster about the "war on terror" notwithstanding.)
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You made some good points there. Moore is horribly one-sided and presents only his side while excluding conflicting and contradictory information. HOWEVER, he does make some rather good points. He does point out some interesting connections between the Bush family and Saudi Arabia along with the censored pages from the 9/11 report. How can you not be intrigued by them?
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Moore is not the liar. Bush is. As Clinton was. As Clark, Dean, Kerry, Lieberman et al. will be if the incompetent morons manage to get their act together. Anything but Bush. And having to hear more from his cheerleading squad. Give up already.
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Oct 27, 2003 10:43:57 PM CST
There's nothing cool about the politics on this sight at all
by fontinau
I swear Harry puts up these Michael Moore stories because he enjoys watching the cat fights between the godless pinko-commies (hi!) and the tyrannical neo-cons.
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Oct 27, 2003 10:50:28 PM CST
What this guy is trying to say is, "Moore is a lying asshole."
by vikingkitty
http://www.kaleo.org/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/07/25/3d3f346205a57?in_archive=1
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It never ceases to amaze me how you whiny liberals can say, "But . . . but . . . that wasn't TRUE socialism!" or "They weren't practicing TRUE communism!". Yes, they were. They demonstrated exactly what happens when someone tries to establish a system as ridiculous as socialism or communism.
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Not because they're the truth, but they present a point with a bias and try to sway you towards his side with humor and cartoons at times. He didn't sway me, but he spurred discussion. That's what his films are for: to spark discussion. You shouldn't take him seriously, but you should talk about his points, even if he takes them and blows them into out-of-proportion, out-of-context points. Bowling for Columbine wasn't a documentary, but an entertaining propaganda piece. I didn't buy it as truth, but I bought it as funny. I mean, Charlton Heston walking away from him in his own house? HiLARious. www.rockithardcore.com
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Oct 27, 2003 11:01:50 PM CST
I figured Moore would take advantage of the fires in California
by vikingkitty
Thought he might use some of the heat to cook up a big order of ribs for his fat ass. Then he'd drive off in an eight cylinder limo with Arrianna Huffington to an anti-SUV event; can't have the "little people" enjoy such luxuries, you know.
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It kills me, but people I'm not bashing you, many of you have some valid points but let me make something clear.
Does the US Gov lie and promote propaganda bullshit?
Yes, yes they do.
Does Michael Moore do the same?
Yes, yes he does.
It really doesn't matter which side you take because, if you like Moore and think he's right, that's cool that's your belief and more power to it.
Do you think the Gov isn't that bad and Bush isn't doing? Cool, more power to you.
I don't care what you believe and no one else should either. This is the US and its YOUR RIGHT to believe in what you want. So for all the people bashing each other, grow up and try talking in a civil manner.
Act your age is basically what I'm trying to say, I'm 17 and if I can realize that everyone ahs their own viewpoints and can and should be respected, don't you think you twenty-something year olds should too?
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Oh boy all the moore apologists are starting to come out in droves now.
I love the often used cop out by the liberals (mind you Im paraphrasing) "Moore is an entertainer with a bias that provokes thought"
The argument here being that "Mein Kampf" (using another Hitler referrence that you libs love so much) was by a dictator with a bias that provokes thought. It doesn't matter whether or not it's true or false, as long as it tows the party line.
Well then maybe he should make narrative films instead of...'ahem' "Documentaries" ooops we all remember "Canadian Bacon" which would ultimately be an apt title for a documentary on Moore.
Why hasn't Moore been sued? Simple. He's such a screeching far right liberal that only a small minority of his group actually believe him. Half of most liberals I know don't believe his bullshit. But they accept him because he validate there belief.
I guess it okay to lie so long as it fits an agenda...hmmm that sounds awful familiar.
Think About This:
A. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
B. Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year is 120,000.
C. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human Services).
Then think about this:
A. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
B. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
C. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
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You said..."The American soldiers on the ground are commiting suicide as they realise the true nature of their mission, while fake letters from them are printed saying how well the invasion is going." Where did you read this my friend? I know some members of the US Army out there and they didn't tell me anything about a suicide problem. They said they were being shot at all the time, but not committing suicide. As far as fake letters, they didn't mention that nor did they mention something about realizing the "true nature of their mission." They just want to survive and come home after being sent to war for no apparent reason. Everyone I've talked to in the Army is upset about being sent to war.
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If anyone started a politically charged thread like this on a board I own, I'd ban them in 5 seconds.
Flamewars ant Trolls kill BBSes. -
When a right-wing arch-conservative presents a biased, subjective and opinionated view of a story, he's "telling it like it is". When a liberal does the same thing, he's lying. God forbid any of you should admit that there's more than one valid side to an argument...no, one side must be unassailable truth, and the other bullshit. The truth never, ever, lies in between. Congratulations, you've turned politics into religion. Zealots.
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God, you people. Michael Moore does not lie hes tells the truth and states his opinions, go search for the facts. They are freakin right, you can search for them casualy. Or are u rightwingers too chicken to actually do it? For those who watched "Bowling for Columbine" and belive that Charleton Heston's speach was twisted and manipulated are wrong. Mr. Moore proves this on his website. Go to www.michaelmoore.com and download the WHOLE speach and see how terrible the gun weilding redneck is. And to responce to Graham Minnesota, you must be refering to Bill O'Rielly. I excuse you for your mistake.
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Iraq did not blow up our buildings, Einstein. Not one of the terrorists on those planes was Iraqi. Not one penny of the money that funded the attack was traced to Iraq. Who, in fact, was most responsible for the 9/11 attacks? Saudi Arabia. Have we even talked about touching Saudi Arabia? No. Get your facts straight before you come in here screaming in all caps, Rush.
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I meant left dammit...aaaaaarrrrggggh
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Michael Moore has good points to make. Points that need to be made. But he seriously undercuts his words by his actions. After his tirade on the Oscars and BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE, I don't think the jury is still out on his ego. The man is a self serving, pandering egomaniac, who, while his politics are admirable, always clouds the issue by making himself bigger than the points he's trying to make. There's no greater example of this than the infamous Charlton Heston interview in BOWLING. On 60 Minutes, Moore basically called Heston a racist for his comments that domestic violence is due in large part because of the "mixing of races". Well, if you actually watched the inteview in COLUMBINE, Moore badgers Heston into answering "Why is there so much violent death in America." Heston, looking completely at a loss for answers (even Heston seemed to understand that HE'S JUST AN ACTOR!!), blurted out that one reason "might be because of the mixing of the races". Moore took this to mean Heston was a white supremacist. But in actuality, Heston has a point: There is racial violence in America!!! It's called the Civil War, slavery, the Watts Riots, genocide of American Indians, internment of Japanese, etc. The lists goes on. Does this make Heston a racist for saying this? I don't think so. But what does Moore do? Go on 60 MInutes misrepresenting a man's words, a man, by the way, suffering from Alzheimer's who can't defend himself. The most gag inducing moment was when Moore held up a picture of a girl who died at Columbine while Heston trudged away. Nice two camera shoot, Michael. Are we to pretend that wasn't staged later on? How stupid DO YOU think we are??? Again, Moore has a message. Even a good one. But he's a bad messenger because it often seems as if he's lost sight of what's really important and the crusade has become one of narcissicsm.
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Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. Let's all just relax for a minute, alright? Everyone take a deep breath. Imagine Bruce Campbell starring in an off-Broadway performance of the Evil Dead musical. There, now don't you feel better? Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, Republican, it doesn't matter. Life is far too short to get worked up in such trivial matters. I mean, come on. Really, come on.
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Ebonic...Well, yes maybe there is. Moore was pointing out similarities between Canada and the US what he did not take into account was the population density in urban areas compared to Canada which is drastically different. I refuse to put blame into an inanimate object. Guns themselves don't actually kill people, it's the person behind them. This is the grand flaw of the liberal argument, no one is ever accountable for anything. Maybe just maybe it's the steady the decline of morals and ethics in this country that consatnly tells its youth that they are special and can do anything. So as adults they feel that they are better than everyone and can do as they please regardless of the people around them. That may be the root of fear and violence...but that's just my uneducated theory.
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Leftwing compassion, WTF does that mean? The friggin Red Cross is attacked and still you can not see evil in it's truest form. The friggin Red Cross! A organization who's very driving force is compassion and helping all of those in need. People giving of their own time and effort, freely and without any type of monetary reward. What do these poor repressed, misunderstood muslims do? They of course try to kill them for their efforts. If this cowardly attack does not prove to you beyond a doubt that we as a nation are fighting the good fight and doing what must be done, then you sir are a idiot of Galactic Scale! They are animals, they can not be reasoned with, they can not be "talked" to, nor do they just need a "hug"! They should and must be hunted down and killed, without remorse. I say that the finest fighting forces in the world are in country, the Americans as well as our truest ally, the United Kingdom. It is time now to let loose the dogs of war and rid the world of those "brave islamic warriors" who believe that the dirty greedy Americans of the Red Cross are only in country to get their oil. Again, WTF is it going to take to wake you out of your slumber? Sept 12th? 10,000 Americans killed? Take the picture of Chamberlain off your wall and replace it with Churchill, understand history or be doomed to repeat it. This is a just and nobel war and one that will without doubt be recorded in history as such.Oh yeah... Michael Moore...well he has a right to his opion, but is that man ever happy or positive about anything....and about the elections, hey mikey have their been any recount showing gore really won? No, not one.....hmmmm did not think so.....Live with the facts Bush won the election...., Bush won friggin Tennesee for pete's sake , gore's home state...if you can not get your own to elect you then you must really suck.....
Let Freedom Ring!!!!! -
You state that Bush is raping our country, and that we know it...how exactly is Bush raping our country? I mean that not in a rhetorical sense, I mean it literally, how is Bush raping the USA? Let's hear some facts to back up your assertion. I'll not resort to bluster and babble to make a point, you shouldn't either, so let's have it...give me some evidence.==========================When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.~~Socrates
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...we'll start seeing states seperating from the Union. I wonder how that would go over?
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....how nonsensical your arguments have become as a whole? You accuse the right of being mindless drones blindly following Bush, yet when confronted with factual evidence to the contrary, you simply ignore it. What happened to you? Your party has been highjacked by frothing at the mouth extremists and you've partaken of their poison, unwittingly accepting anything they choose to spout, right or wrong. Am I saying that the left is always wrong? Absolutely not...the best course always has to have both sides of the story taken into account. Wanna know if you're a Kool-Aid drinker? Answer this question: what has Bush done that you approve of? If you can't come up with one little thing you like that he's done, you're refusing to be honest. If you WON'T come up with one little thing he's done you like, then you have become prejudiced and slanted beyond hope. Heck, I think more of Larry Flint than Bill Clinton in a lot of respects, but I will be the first to say I applaud his and Tony Blair's rescue of the Muslim Albanians and consequent sacking of Slobodan Milosevic when the UN (again) was too concerned with sticking their collective thumbs up their asses. Let's have it....one thing you like that Bush has done. You want more evidence that your party has fallen to pieces? Just look at your leaders...where is your JFK? where is your Truman? where is your FDR? All you've been able to produce since the 'Flower Power' era is the architect of failure in Vietnam, a visionary peanut farmer who killed our economy and almost our national spirit, and a proven liar and perjuror who let 7 years of terror attacks on us go relatively unanswered. Don't get me wrong, I'm not downing liberal ideas, they are a necessary counterpoint to conservative ideas...what I'm downing is the PEOPLE in charge who've driven you to this low. Would JFK have criticized his successor publicly? No. Would FDR have advocated such a convoluted non-solution that is being espoused by the current democratic elite? Hell no. I'm not asking you to switch sides, I'm not telling you your beliefs are wrong, I'm telling you that you really need to examine the cold hard reality that you've become a party of extremists and that if you are to do any good for our country at all, you need to wake up and take your party back. Extremism will get you nowhere, and what's worse, it will get the country nowhere. Let's have some competition guys, come up with better legislation than us, make us be better, neither side is 100% right on everything and we need your (realistic) input. You think what your leaders are espousing is realistic? Read deeper, think about it. Three words: Department of Peace...what the fuck is that Kucinich?? Clark would create a new department to oversee foreign aid...hey Wes, we've got one of those, it's called the State Department. Please, for all of our sakes, don't drink any more of their Kool-Aid, and retake your party before it get's any worse.
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If Moore wants to bitch about the Iraq war being a "false war", then why doesn't he go after the Democrats who voted to give Bush the authority to commit that "false war"? Again, not that he doesn't have a point; but like so many people, he gets hung up on liberal/conservative labels. All liberals are good and all conservatives are bad. It's a child-like view of things. It's a way for people to pick a team, as if running a country were a sport. It's that kind of thinking that's driving this country down. It's what gave Schwarzenegger the governorhsip in Cali.
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There is that little cluster-fuck called a $374.2 billion dollar deficit. But I come here not to point out the idiocy of others, i just have a little comment to say on the behalf of all my fellow democrats. We (liberals) do NOT hate America, no matter how many times my friends have said that, they all think I'm a communist because i disagree with what we are doing.. We love America like adults do, while Republicans love America like 4 year-olds. To a 4 year-old, everything mommy (USA) does is wonderful and anyone who critizes mommy is bad. Liberals take the time to understand what they love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and that is the best thing in the world.
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Not all, I will admit there are some and they are a bit nutty, liberals are extremist whackys who want to deride everything this country has done. A lot of democrats would just like to get along with everyone else, the problem is when we speek our minds, we are targeted as "commie bastards" or "traitors". And all this name-calling is done by...yep, you guessed it, loopy conservative extremists. I love America, but some of the people in it are dragging it down, liberals and conservatives alike.
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...you failed to answer any of my queries, at least to anyone other than yourself. Name one thing you like that Bush has done...do this, and you'll show you're at least objective.=========I never called anyone a commie, etc...if some do, what can you say, politics generates friction.=========As for the deficit, I'd rather not get into econ as I'm fucking asleep at the keyboard, but a 400 billion deficit amounts to nothing when you take into account the trillion-esque US GDP...400 billion is chump change. Regardless, the econ is turning around and we'll cover that debt with ease soon. ========The point was and is, your party is being led by progressively worse and worse extremists...I'm not saying you are an extremist, but you (the democrat faithful) are being led unwittingly down that path. Disagree with me? Offer me evidence to the contrary...not contrived attacks on my arguments, not blind bashing of my positions that have nothing to do with the question at hand, but real compelling evidence that counters what I've stated above. Show me examples of modern democrat non-extremism...
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Alas my friend, I have to run...time to go home and go to bed. I wasn't trying to be short with you, and I do agree that all of the name calling doesn't help (which is why I've stopped doing what little of it I did)...but you see my point, right? It's not the everyday democrat the right has a problem with, it is your leaders we abhor, the same people who drag you into the unenviable position of coming under attack from our side of the aisle. Heck, if they got their act together, stopped the special interest cowtowing, and came back to reality, I'm sure they'd restore the balance of power in a heartbeat...as it is, they are really making you look bad. It has sunk to the point that Zell Miller has written a book criticizing his own party's behavior en extremis. Another sinking point: Joe Libermann has sunk to the level of Kerry, Dean, et al just so he doesn't get booed by his own patry in the debates!! THAT is out of control.
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On the point of some democrats leading the rest of us down a spiteful path, you are correct. I do not believe, however, that they are making us look bad. I feel actually pretty good about myself. I do not feel at anyway crappy or downtrodden. I do realize that you weren't calling me anything, I was just pointing out the ignorance of some people I personally know. I also realize that none of the democratic candidates in any way would qualify as an adult, figurativally speaking, aside from Clark. Clark is the only one i do like. I know that democrats often use slander to demote others, but you cannot honestly say that conservatives do no do the same. But I believe i am straying from the point i am trying to make. What I am trying to say is that to each his own, we will probably never agree on much, but oh well. This country was never meant for those who think differently, you and I alike. No one will ever be right or wrong, it just isn't possible.
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Oct 28, 2003 3:46:08 AM CST
Sept 11 2001 - world trade centre..... Oct 12 2002 - Bali ....
by theginger twit
Do the math... Nov 13 2003
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I can't believe that anyone cares about his "work". I think it is mostly media hype, although last movie did make pretty decent money.
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nice to see that partisan extremist whining is still going strong. I'm not gonna start calling people names and saying they're the devil, but I will state my views on a couple of things: 1) all this "MM shows all democrats as good and all republicans as bad" stuff is completely hokey. Moore has made it clear that he's appalled by both parties and is wishing for a sensible third party candidate to come along. 2)GreatOne, I think the deeper idea of the danger of handing out guns in a bank is not that a robber will open an account, get one and use it (though that is the first effect of the scene in "Columbine"), but that you have a vault of guns and ammo in a bank, some of which that a bank robber could use or take while robbing the place. 3)GreatOne, that "their religion is a false one" line was just nonsense. If you read the Koran, you'd notice that women are considered equals in many ways and actually have considerable rights. Even the robing of women is explained by many educated Muslims as simply a way for women to be judged on their intellectual merit rather than how attractive they are (though I don't necessarily prescribe to this view). The bad state of women's rights in many Muslim societies is not down to the religion, but is actually based on other regional cultural customs (e.g. female circumcisions, "honor killings etc.) and old patriarchal power structures. 4) All this nazi/MM/liberal/conservative propaganda talk... There's a difference making exaggerated statements and interpreting numbers your way to make a valid point (I'm sorry, but MM's central point in "Columbine" about the paranoid, scared, "beware "the other"" atmosphere in America is totally valid) or making such statements or manipulating the figures (or in fact not using facts and figures at all) to spout absolute nonsense (like the Nazi "the sorry state of our country is due to a deep conspiracy mainly involving Jews"). Let's not start making exaggerated paranoid comments, or you'll just give Moore more ammo for his "US as a nation of paranoid scared nuts" view. 5) Don't call someone unpatriotic if they disagree with you, or if they dare to criticise something about the US. I always liked what Stephen Fry said about being patriotic. Loving your country doesn't mean being blind to its faults. It's like being a parent. You are not a very good parent if you turn a blind eye whenever your kid misbehaves. No, you love your kid and you want them to be as good as they can. So you tell them what they've done wrong so they can be better in the future. The same way, if you feel the land you love is on the wrong path, you speak up and say what you think it's doing wrong and work to get it to mend its ways. (And this does not mean over-the-top or violent hectoring which doesn't accomplish anything. Just like a parent beating a child into a pulp isn't a sensible or effective or moral way to straighten them out, just mindlessly yelling that everyone else is wrong without being constructive about your criticism or using violence like McVeigh in Oklahoma are not the way to get the country back on track.)
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But doesn't this make a nice change from the pointless Star Wars v LOTR v Matrix v Hulk Hogan shite that's normally dripping off these talkbacks.
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I'm sorry guys, I was under the impression that this was a MOVIE website, Not a forum for a bunch of Clueless Rednecks to slang someone they don't give a shit about....
If you don't care for Mike and his politics, then don't watch his movies, don't read his books, and don't comment on this TB about him... Just carry on believing everything the mass media and popular culture tells you about your country and leave the thinking to people who don't because Your not going to sway people that do like Mike and are looking forward to his new movie. Your just going to sound like a buch of bitter Assholes, so go comment on Matrix Revelutions or somthing else that will not require you to think, just to consume. -
1. I am NOT a "liberal". I am a 20 year veteran of the UNITED STATES NAVY and I have the bullet wound in my left arm to prove it.
2. NEO CON is short for neo conservative which is just another name for Reagan Republican. Give to the rich and fuck the middle class. The poor just suffer. See TYCO, Aldephia, ENRON etc etc
2.Speaking of that, for most of you conservatives I notice that not too many of you have had any real military service. (Being AWOL from the TEXAS NATIONAL GUARD DOES NOT COUNT)
3. You claim you are for America but sit there intolerantly lambasting anyone who disagrees with you. Thats SO very American (yes asshole, thats sarcasm). Try this one on for size, If you wanted to invade a sovereign country that had done us harm after 9/11 you should have invaded northern Pakistan or for that matter Saudi Arabia (where the REAL enemy lives) But NO, the Saudis are our FRIENDS (yeah, RIGHT and monkeys will fly out of my ass blowing trumpets)
4. But more to the point, it doesn't matter if BUSH is defeated in the next election, he has already completed the task for which he was programmed. He has gutted the economy of this country and set Americans of every class at each others throats over trivial shit. He has thrown this country into deficit that my fucking GRANDCHILDREN will still be paying off. He has gutted social and environmental and alternative energy programs. 87 billion dollars for IRAQ? FUCK IRAQ!!! 87 billion dollars will pay for the budget shortfall of every state in the Union. 87 billion dollars might just get us working cure for cancer in the next 5 years.
5.Why did we invade IRAQ? So that Bechtel and Haliburton can feed off the carcass. Why did we invade IRAQ? To divert peoples attention from the real enemy, RADICAL ISLAM. Because the whole administration is in the pocket of the Saudi Regime.
6.Why do I like Micheal Moore? Because he knows a liar when he sees one and he's not afraid to call him out. Bush stole the election through deceit and trickery, thats a fact. Ask the 70,00 disenfranchied black floridians all about that one. But this is a country that the media wants you to think that Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh speak for the majority. If that was really true, I'd lead the fucking revolution myself. -
Goddamnit where is this country going? Moore is one of the FEW people left in this country who actually has the brains and the balls to broadcast ideas that are contrary to the public relations spin that is pouring out of the "white" house on a daily basis. I don't know if any of you have looked outside your comfortable little Harry Knowles / Matrix-worshiping suburban lives for a news source other than U.S. television, but if you did,you'd realize things aren't peaches: We're in a huge fucking mess. We as tax payers are spending hundreds of billions in Iraq, while U.S. society is falling apart. The bullshit idea that War stimulates the economy is an obsolete leftoever from WWII, when US citizens were being recruited to build bombs and bullets in factories by hand; these days it's all automated by the defense industry, and the one's getting rich are the guys running the show and the corporations they hand out contracts to. The pains we are all feeling are the pains of an empire crumbling, being dragged down by a few ultra-rich, ultra-conservative, right-wing religious fundamentalists. If any of you have read "The Project for the New American Century", which is freely available online and is the plan which Bush / Cheney / Ashcroft / Wolfowitz / Rumsfeld are playing by, it calls for "the US military to fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars" over the coming decade. The thought is scary, and who's going to be paying for their religious / economic crusade? YOU. With your money and with your lives. In his short time in office, Bush has set the environmental movement back dacades, has depleted the surplus by billions, and has dregulated every law and measure that keeps dangerous multinationals from further destrying the environment, human rights, worker's rights, and democracy. I don't know if any of you read, but there's more people backing up Moore, people who aren't comical grandstanders like himself. Journalists. Greg Palast is one of them, and I can name twenty others. I commend Moore for at least standing up for what he believes in. No matter how manipulative he is, he's just one guy, and he could NEVER be as manipulative as the multimillion dollar PR initiative in effect by the administration. Iraq is a mess, health care is a mess, we're murdering eachother, schools are crumbling, and a few at the top are getting rich. This is not a conspiracy, it's the truth. Get out and read some alternative news sources, some books and stop waiting for the next badly spelled review from Harry. I just think you're all in denial, afraid to actually engage with what Moore and others are saying. Conservativism is bred from FEAR. The jargon used by this administration: evildoers, Patriot Act, Homeland Security is scarily remeniscent of Germany under Hitler. Just sit back and think about it.
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Don't you have to actually know your full of crap to be, technically, a "liar"? I think Michael Moore believes in black helicopters and backroom conspiracies and the promise of a socialist utopia led by right (er, left) thinking sorts like Mike.
Sure, he manipulates the information, but everybody _knows_ he's a leftie, just like Ann Coulter manipulates her data--and, ahem, it's well publicized what side of aisle she falls on.
A 9/11 flick is cynically exploitive pabulum--even the "who knew what when" material that is "coming out" now is being spun through a blender. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback 3 years after the fact, assemble a puzzle of a thousands different pieces and say: "Look! They all knew! Or, darn it, they should have known!"
But, it's easy to point fingers when the person pointing fingers is not and usually has never been responsible for anything of consequence in any way in their entire lives. But Michael Moore has expensive watches and cars to buy, and the 9/11 movie will probably make a lot more money tha SICKO--a movie that could potentially legitimately expose an ongoing horrorshow in this country and have a genuinely positive affect.
Conspiracy theory movies about 9/11 are inherently cynical manipulation for attention and cash. But, no matter how irrational or unfactual Moore can be, you _gotta_ respect the man's balls.
I didn't agree with any of the uninformed Hollywood liberals on their public positions on Iraq (simply because they were, well, uninformed) but when they were told to keep quiet, they did. Courage of their convictions, eh? When Michael Moore got up to talk, he gave 'em hell. I think he was _wrong_ but, damn, at least he's got a little testicular fortitude.
Wow, that was long. -
What you guys complain about from the two or three movies Michael Moore has made is what we feel about your 24 hour 'fair and balanced' news coverage from Fox.
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Oct 28, 2003 9:25:54 AM CST
Forget politics -- Michael Moore's new project should be losing
by spyguy
Seriously, that douchebag is about one more Twinkie away from a massive coronary...
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I like his docs, but he needs to get someone else to narrate stuff that he writes. And he needs to stay off camera. He tends to make each documentary focus on him and not the subject. I mean, I'm sorry, but the K-Mart segment in Columbine is totally pathetic. If it wasn't staged, it clearly felt like it... especially after the press conference where Michael is going "Oh, wow. Wow!"
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Or maybe I missed your point. But unlike Christianity, many (not all) Islam proponents make no secret about the anti-infedel perspectives, almost to the extent of eradication of all other 'false' religions. Perhaps you don't realize the intensity involved here: Islam is not a political agenda in the sense that the west has teetered between "church and state". As evidenced by Bin Ladin, there are individuals and groups in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and plenty other mid-east countries whose fanatical devotions to either respective religion are pursued homicidally to their utmost. Why, just last year we even got our very own home-grown terrorist sniper in Maryland who enjoyed quite a killing spree under the self-enforced auspices of: you guessed it, Islam. However, as a nation and a gov't, the U.S. has had an open tolerance to other religious groups within its own borders. Muslim nations-- with very few exceptions-- emphatically do not. When it comes to Islam, it's not merely a power play for dominance. *****Despite the ramblings of the odd general who sampled some obsessive counter-behavior to reflect the mentality of the opposition, I am not aware of President Bush openly touting the word of Christianity as the driving force behind the war and reconstruction in Iraq. I've seen no evidence that our servicemen or administration are scheming to subjugate or eliminate the Iraqi belief tenets. ******I will make only one reference between Vietnam and Iraq: had we won back when, I have little doubt the adminstration would have surreptitiously entertained the notion of extracting hastily from Vietnam to celebrate our victory and recover substantial losses, with minimized efforts to re-condition the depleted resources and society under western 'guardianship'. It would have happened, but with a tight fisted vengeance. That our current administration has siphoned our own money and support to attempt to balance Iraq is certainly with questionable intentions, but perhaps my math is a little elementary: good samaritanship is all well and fine, but without our support --let alone the UN-- the Iraqi remnants would've been hard-pressed to rebuild the lifeblood supply of oil-wells that their own loving dictator chose to sabatoge rather than lose control of. The alternative was to pull out: our country loses servicemen and women (AND civilians) for an abandoned goal, a large chunk of change, and Iraq loses any potential to regain structure at its current condition, with recovery of economy at a snail's pace. If more UN countries had extended further support for our own military losses, this could've become another 'rainbow coalition', but instead the U.S. administration gets tagged as "opportunist" and capitalist-driven.
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Yes, you're right that fascism and socialism are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and it's why the USSR and Germany hated each other. This is why it is surprising that anyone can argue that the Nazis were socialists. They were fascists and disguised that fact with the lure of socialism. And it worked - they tricked millions. They tricked you too -- here you are, on this stupid website, arguing (along with vikingkitty) that Nazis were socialist. That's the dumbest statement ever made on this site, and that's saying a lot. Now you can reply with some insults just to drive your meaningless point home.
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Political discussion is a fucking joke these days. Everybody's so polarized in their little camps, not willing to concede that maybe the other side may have a vaild point or two. No, instead, we've got Janeane Garafalo on Crossfire, saying America should pull out of Iraq because of the recent attacks. Never mind that this will put that country right back in the shit it was in before, or put the country in the hands of a fundamental regime,just so long as it soothes her white Liberal guilt. In the other corner, we've got Bill O'Reilly saying that we'll get North Korea next and any other country that wants to get uppity with the free world. A glorified armchair quarterback, like those fucking sports fans who get all pumped when "my team" wins the game... as if they made the winning touchdown themselves. Nobody really gives a rat's ass about the greater good, only maintaining the cut-on-the-dotted-line pattern of their personal party politic. Screaming matches, name-calling and stirring up shit for no greater reason than stirring up shit. Politics is not about persoanl belief, it's about role-playing. Are you a Liberal? Here's the rulebook, this is what you believe. Conservative? Here's yours. Now, you cannot carry on conversations with the other side or we'll revoke your membership. Yelling and childish name-calling are the only accepatable form of communication. This isn't a belief system anymore, folks, it's role-playing. My suggestion? Let's take Ann Coulter, Micheal Moore, Rush Limbaugh, Noam Chomsky,Bill O'Reilly and Janeane Garafalo ( feel free to add to the list, people ) and lock them in a vault until they come out and decide to act like grown-ups. Liberals, lose the condescension. You'll gain more support for your beliefs if you quit looking down your nose at the general public like something they just stepped in. We're all very impressed at the list of books you've read, now do something other than finger pointing and pseudo-poetic rants against " the American facist empire". Conservatives, until I see you personally on the evening news, dug in like those poor soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq, you have sweet fuck all to say. You are a fucking cheerleader, coasting by on other's decisions and crowing about how "we were right" You like the tough-guy rhetoric, put it to use, pick up a gun and go kill something. Till, then, sit down and shut up.
Both sides now...you're on a pendulum, constantly going back and forth, sniping at each other on the other side. You might want to try learning something from the other side. Nothing will ever be accomplished by this back and forth schoolyard bickering.
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but they only serve fractionally to describe the activities being conducted in Iraq. A practice that Mr. Moore can be anticipated to follow quite closely. There *is* humanitarian effort involved, but it will be overwhelmed by the political chessplay on the homefront. Lets see Michael Moore travel to Iraq and get some first-hand interviews.
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Agreed that my post basically was to highlight the specific features of Germany that were more along the lines of a industrialist nationalism - meaning that socialism is not necessarily the cause of its growth to tyranny - but there was a collectivist appeal and practice - yet I don't see as many differences in that aspect of the rise of it compared to numerous Western nations. In fact, I would ask you why you are so sure that certain socialist tendencies aren't exhibited in other identified non-socialist entites. Is not nationalism a type of collectivism? Did North America in World War Two exhibit very traditional socialist practices to support the 'cause'? My problem with the whole notion of socialism versus capitalism is that neither one exists in any fundamental sense - China practices a form of free-market socialism that is specific to it, Canada (compartively) practices a version of socialist democracy that would make many Americans cry Red, The Soviets had a 70 -year socialist experiment that never got anywhere close to socialism, and I put to you that technology, ologopoly and standard practices have pretty much obliterated the traditional idea of capitalism to the point where it too is not practiced anywhere in the world today. Thus, the generalisms that we seem to rely on to expose one idea from another become more and more vague and misapplied. Was Germany likley to be any different under Roehm? Yes, undoubtedly - most scholars agree that Hitler's vision was terribly specific to him, and in any totalitarian regime the whim of the dictator becomes the policy of the nation. However, given the nature of every protracted arms race in history, war was still likely. But such specualtive arguements derail debate far more quickly that the investigation that you were formerly putting forth. I enjoy chatting with you.
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Thanks for posting a response. Very interesting excerpts. I can tell you one thing, most of the military personnel there are not pleased with being sent to a hostile environment to "liberate" it. What a crock. The Bush Administration has severely damaged the credibilty of the US by sending troops to invade a country for highly dubious reasons. Most of our close allies despise us because of Bush and his cronies. Vote Democratic in 04, we need to get Bush out of office.
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That was the point of the movie, right?
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Revoultions...hoping most of the early reviews are FAKE on November 5th!
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Oct 28, 2003 11:59:51 AM CST
Would you REALLY have wanted Al Gore in office during and after
by lostnseenile
As for the mising WMD's.... Why did ol' diaper head have bio/hazmat suits, atropein(?sp) injections, etc. all on hand. TWhat happened to the old rule, where there is smoke, there is fire?
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There are enormous similarities between Nazi Germany and current-day America, both in terms of values as in politics. With the persistent refusal to adhere to human rights (Geneva convention) with respect to the POWs in Cuba, the US now has a concentration camp. And why? Rumsfeld: "Americans above everything!", perhaps a playful reference to the German national anthem. In terms of society, Nazism characterizes itself by favoring the group above the individual, emphasis on a strong central leadership, not questioning leadership, emphasis of military strengh, nationalist symbolism and propaganda, scapegoating, persecution, and a disrespect for human rights for the members of the perceived outcast. ALL of these also apply to current-day US.
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Regardless of your opinions on the subject matter of Moore's films. Nobody can deny that he does it maybe not solely but he makes these films in order to make himself feel important. He's got to be the single most insecure person on the planet. He just has to make a "statement" wherever he goes. That shit on the Oscars last year was embarrasing. Not because he spoke against the war (i was and am still a supporter of our Iraq policy, but have no problem with dissenting masses) but he only said what he said because he was told not to mention the war by the Academy and he felt that he would get some free publicity from being the only "celebrity" to speak out. I just don't like Michael Moore, and he better be careful with his 9/11 project because I have a bad feeling he's going to piss a lot of people off especially family members of those who died...but how would that be any different from any of his other films right?
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Anyone who has actually read Moore or Franken's books would know that they manipulate facts to make us laugh and/or think. They're quite upfront about it. Especially Franken, who's books are sendups of the I'm right/you're wrong political manifestos that are coming out right and left. Since he's a radical Democrat, that means the Conservatives get the brunt of it. Sorry. It's a reaction to every "Bill Clinton is a drug user who had oral sex and ruined America" story out there. Moore is the same way. If you check out the "lies" about Bowling for Columbine, it's a joke. They're all based in fact. The "cold, dead hands" remark wasn't said in Denver, but no one in the film says it was. It's like introducing a Neil Armstrong interview with the "one small step for man" line, then complaing that that's not a shot from Armstrong's living room, it's from the moon landing! "But he's a documentarian! He can't fiddle with the truth!" A true documentarian wouldn't make a film with a drastic political slant, humorous narration, and wacky pieces of animation. You're right. A POLITICAL HUMORIST would. Dammit.
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I'm sure MM will make a highly biased, factually challenged doco on the subject but that doesn't change the fact that millions of people can't afford medical insurance and the costs are going up all the time. Yeah the population is aging but it seems like costs are far outstripping the slow pace of Father Time . . . so what gives?
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I was too sick of reading these posts to actually read the whole talk back. Are you Americans blind? You people missed the whole point of Bowling for Columbine which is that America is the country with the most murders a year (and the exploration of why). Now, is that a lie. No! It's the fuckin truth. We, outside of the United-States have known this for a long time. Who cares if he's wrong about a few numbers (every source is going to have a different number anyways). And if the original source is your government well...I pity those of you who'll take anything your government sais as truth just because the governement said it. Who cares if Moore did not actually receive the gun at the actuall bank location (and i'm inclined to believe him in this as we hear the lady say they have 500 on site...and he did not try to hide that they had to do a background check, we hear the lady say it), the point was that it's easy to get a gun. Anyone else finds it odd that a public person going against the president now finds a lot of website denoucing him as a liar and all that? Bush is the liar that should be denounced and kicked out of his position. He's the one hurting your country, not Moore. Stop blaming the one who's trying to help you guys and fight (peacefully mind you) the one hurts you.
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I blame the rise of the internet. // There once was a time when I was confident in the power of man's reason and the potential for it to be employed for the betterment of our circumstances. For reasons it is pointless to debate right now, this led me to adopt a libertarian stance on political issues. I genuinely believed that a free society was possible, that it would lead to the best possible outcomes for most citizens, and that it could be brought into being by persuasion and political discourse. I believed all of these things before there was an internet. I don't really believe any of them now, and when I argue politics in the way it is being done on this board it is just for old time's sake. // How could the internet change my mind? Well, frankly, it didn't change my mind about the relative merits of political systems. What it DID do is make it possible for me to actually TALK to a much wider group of people than I ever could before. And talking to people convinced me of the following things: There is no such thing as political discourse. The entire model of interaction is a lie, a myth. The only thing that exists are different factions of people whose minds are already made up screaming at one another. I am no different and am not immune. So our political systems move by inertia, and not by rational design at all. And, even if discourse on the Enlightenment model could somehow be willed into existence or brought about by reform, my interactions with Americans of all stripes have led me to conclude that I don't really WANT good outcomes anymore. There is no one who could be said to deserve it. Bad outcomes are actually preferable in the political sphere, because anything that can slow the juggernaut of dumb for an hour or a day is to be lauded. Except for brief intervals, where a juvenile fire flickers in my mind and I want to talk smack about Nazis and socialism, in the main I just want everyone to SHUT UP, and stop repeating the same bromides over and over and over and over. And, since I know that everyone will refuse to shut up, my second choice is for someone to hold the country under water for fifteen minutes. Thanks. This message brought to you by the makers of SARS.
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Hey there, rabid republican here on my old id (due to reasons beyond my control) I know it's been said, but it bears repeating: Michael Moore is a hack. His worldview is not something to be taken seriously, outside the realm of paranoid conspiracy theorists and the like. I needn't remind some of you of his first post 9/11 message on his website, wherein he declared that he couldn't believe the tragedy that affected so many lives was happening in "states that didn't vote for Bush" (which is wrong as Alexandria, VA is where the Pentagon is, but I digress). His politicization of our darkest hour disgusts me and for him to return to the well like this lobbing his putrid bile in his next documonstosity is something with which we should express our resounding resentment. I wish I could engage him in something resembling a debate, but as he is genetically incapable of doing so himself, I can find nothing to produce save my own revulsion.
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You're both correct, I believe, in your posts. As wonderful as the internet is in many ways, there are plenty of downsides as well. No matter how crazy one's views might be (or perfectly rational, for that matter), and no matter how many times you have your world view crushed or at least dented by the opposing opinions of others, you can still seek out like-minded people and information online to reaffirm your own views. This is why you always have these threat scenarios no matter what your political views are. Everyone's ideals are in a constant state of peril inflicted by the opposite of whatever you happen to be. It doesn't even matter how well your particular ideological camp is doing -- there's always information online to enforce the political siege mentality. I, too, have little if any belief in being able to sway anyone politically online. Whenever I do engage in that kind of debate, be it in the TB or elsewhere -- and usually against my better judgment, it's always when I'm feeling uncommonly optimistic that there might actually be someone out there who hasn't made his or her mind up and that a difference might be made for that person if an informed stance is taken against some of the loonier theories and ideologies out there. Alas, I know it's a feeble hope and sometimes I regret doing it when I realize I've dragged myself into one of the pointless debates which I ordinarily tend to despise. The one good thing about being exposed to this milieu online is the acquired and absolute loathing of political dogma on both sides of the political scale. I've always hated fanatics, but now even the yes-people of the established, politically polarizing parties of the free world disgust me more often than not. If anything I consider myself a moderate, with both liberal and conservative values (depending on the issue). At times there seem to be a lot of people like that, but once election time rolls around, most of them fall into place, perpetuating the established political machinery. Bringing change to that type of monolithic mechanism is truly a sysiphean task.
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YES IT IS
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Oct 28, 2003 8:52:28 PM CST
(Michael Moore) is "Filled with intelligent politcal opinions" i
by commando cody
It may have to replace other catch AICN phrases for mocking things. Moore is a waste of space, egomaniacal, self-deluded, bloated buffoon. And his documentaries are shams of the first magnitude given that he actually MAKES UP and STAGES scenes in them (such as COLUMBINE) which he then tries to foist them off as "real events" to those who are unsuspecting or are willing to buy into the utter bullshit he's peddling. Which is all for his OWN glory and ego gratification so he can further feel he is manipulating people into his line of thinking -- that is, he certainly does NOT believe in free speech or in ANY opinion opposing his own. So the notion that the "reviewer/poster" had that Moore likes to "listen" to opinions is the SECOND best laugh out line of the year.
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Oct 28, 2003 10:22:45 PM CST
Renata: "It's what gave Schwarzenegger the governorhsip in Cali.
by commando cody
Uh, late breaking newsflash for you, Renata: jerk-off, jack-wad Michael Moore and his idiotic politics aside AND speaking as a Californian who happily voted for Arnold, what gave Arnie the governorship was pure and simple: it was a completely incompetent Democratic Governor who never met a lobbyist or voting group he couldn't suck up to enough or try to buy off by tossing money at them, a spending habit which literally bankrupted the state to the tune of 37 BILLION. Not to mention his managerial style which consisted of bungling EVERYTHING he touched. To say Gray Davis was an utter DISASTER as governor out here is putting it mildly. The fact that he DID get his hat handed to him and DID get booted out is a sign there IS justice in the universe.
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Republicans, Democrats it's all the same shit. Those parties only even exist to divide us... don't believe me ? This talkback is proof of just how well it's working. We all sit around arguing while these guys get in office, fuck shit up and line thier pockets with OUR money, with DRUG money, with OIL money... they ALL do it... Clinton's campaign was PAID FOR BY BUSH'S PEOPLE! It's all a sham. At least Michael Moore is doing something. He proves that ANYONE SHMO can grab a camera and get their word out there. Have something to say - go and say it... don't just bitch that you don't like things while you spank off at your computer reading harry's rants about movies that most of us will never see anyway... This is the REAL problem in this country... we're all a bunch of lazy fucks. We don't care... we don't do anything... we just complain and spout off shit we know nothing about... It's really sad. If everyone gave up on this politcal party shit and stood up and said we're not dealing with this bullshit anymore... and actually did something about it... and I don't just mean hold up signs outside someone's office... I mean REALLY do something... we might actually get somewhere... but we'll never get to a better place like this. So you all stay to the right... and you all stay to left and continue to point your fingers at each other cause that's what they want it. You're perfectly distracted so they can continue lying and bombing and poisioning us... Cheers.
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i used to respect michael moore; he used to be objective, at least, i thought he was, but he's lost it. the left-wing needed a huge ballast balance out the lard that is rush limbaugh, and now they've got it. liars, fear mongerers, propaganda artists.
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nothing beats political diatribes by nameless faces on a forum where only their screen name will be held accountable! I love all the anti-corporate rhetoric spewing from the liberals nowadays....especially since all of the "9 blind mice" in last Sunday's debate stressed the importance of creating new jobs. I guess they must mean government jobs, then. The economy is turning around, we're rebuilding a free Iraq...that puts the Dems behind 2-0 before the President even starts campaigning! Oh well, that's about enough out of me for now; I just can't wait until someone at AICN starts a TB for the Reagan mini-hackjob that CBS will hopefully have the common sense not to air next month. (At least Moore uses actual quotes....the CBS writer just made up most of the dialog for the series...and obviously doesn't understand why 49 states voted for the guy in 1984.)
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This in response to yet another Jedi council posted in parts and yet another talkack I just finished reading through and am too tired after readin to argue over. I suggest a boycott, lasting a week, of registerin ANY hits on this site. This has to stop. I know Harry fins Mr Moore and his political slant entertaining and Moriarty finds hand his friends' opinions of WWLD illuminating and revelatory, but there is no reason to revel in this sort of divisive and esoteric sludge. If this gets me banned from talkbacks, so be it, but I cannot stand this sort of "news" cropping up her. It really serves no purpose other than to prop up some old sad irrelevant poser's career by keeping him controversial and giving his fans a place to be heard. I never see the majority of his supporters posting elsewhere on the site, and the ones who post pro-him here who do post for him kill their reps by going tie-dyed on us all. Take the temptation away from Harry to post this dreck and kill his hit ratio for the week. I'm out. Why don't you try it, too?
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to rewrite history....
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/28/1067233141495.html
The White House website effectively prevents search engines indexing and archiving material on the site related to Iraq.
The directories on a site which can be searched by the bots sent out by search engines can be limited by means of a file called robots.txt, which resides in the root directory of a site.
Adding a directory to robots.txt ensures that nothing in that folder will ever show up in a search and will never be archived by search sites.
The White House's robots.txt file lists a huge number of directories all related to Iraq.
The Democrat National Committee blog claims a change in the robots.txt file took place sometime between April and October this year.
Earlier this year, the White House changed pages on its website which claimed that "combat" was over in Iraq; these pages were changed to say "major combat."
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Oct 29, 2003 9:57:36 PM CST
thats the secret! Moore is actually 30gms of fiber pinched from
by lostnseenile
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When Moore asked Charleton why he thought Canada didn't have the problem with gun violence that the U.S. does, he said "Well, we do have a higher minority population than they do..."
Put on the spot, the president of the NRA reached into the back of his mind for a reason why gun violence is a problem in the United States and not Canada and came up with...minorities.
So no, as a person who has the blood of 5 different "minorities" running through her veins, I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for Heston, decrepit old man that he is.
Oh, and boys, just because it's not Cinema Verite, doesn't mean it's not a documentary. -
This whole discussion about whether Nazis are left-wing or right-wing is retarded. Shut up, all of you. No one's a fucking Nazi. Being a liberal or a conservative in contemporary America doesn't have anthing to do with being a Nazi. George W. Bush isn't a fucking Nazi. Call him a fool, or an incompetent monster, if you want, and argue that. Prove that. Argue that this makes him worse than any Nazi, even. But he's not a fucking Nazi. That's simply not an accurate description--it's just lazy, empty, pointless. And saying that liberals have anything in common with Nazis is just as lazy, empty, and pointless. Look, you guys can draw the ideological spectrum on the blackboard and write Nazi on the left-hand side or the right hand side all you want. You can play hot Nazi potato or Nazi musical chairs or ring around the Nazi or go "You're the Nazi," "No, YOU'RE the Nazi" 'till hell freezes over, but you're not doing yourselves or anybody any favors. Develop your points or shut the fuck up.
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