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SPOILER ALERT !!
Hi, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab...
I think we’re going to break this into three separate entries this time, each one representing about 45 minutes of meeting. Once again, we assembled at Frosty Skywalker’s place. Once again, there was much to discuss. And once again, there are rumors and news that has erupted in the mere week and a half since this gathering that we’ll need to talk about this time. The floodgates are opening, and from now till May of 2005, the anticipation’s just going to get worse... and worse... and worse... and maybe this is just a way for those of us who attend to keep from going crazy in the meantime.
Before we get started, though, we want to open up the Jedi Council to include the readers, starting right now. For our next meeting, we’ll include one reader, and we’ll rotate that spot for each meeting afterwards. If you think you deserve to be the person in the seat, then e-mail and tell me why. Remember... all the meetings are held in LA, and if you’re going to attend, travel and lodging is your own business. We’d love to have you, though, and I hope to hear from all interested parties in the next few weeks. Write me by November 10th if you want to be eligible for the first open slot.
Now... let’s get to it. We’ve welcomed two new members to the Council this time. One is Carl Cunningham, long associated with STAR WARS fandom around the Internet, and the other will be known as The Hellboy, an industry insider who is a welcome addition to the group. Carl was in town to attend the INDIANA JONES DVD junket the day before, so it was a rare treat to be able to include him.
Subdued and somber was the mood at the start of the Jedi Council. So much had happened since we had last convened, so much had been revealed, and the rumor mill had been in over-drive since filming on Episode III ended in August.
Even before actual discussion began, whispers were traded, pictures were shared, and tape-recorders were turned off by all parties as not to violate anyone’s trust in who knew what and how. First question for the group: has everyone seen all the new spoiler photos floating around now?
Darth Tardy - I just saw the Anakin one. That was good enough for me.
Moriarty - You haven’t seen any of the Tarkins?
Darth Tardy - No, I just saw… I’ll just say I saw the Anakin ones, and I got shivers.
Tape turned off. Beaks and Darth Tardy went to take a quick look at the Tarkin pics.
Darth Tardy - The Anakin was good enough for me. I saw that, and I was like, “pshsst!” If this is what he looks like, they have really gone way beyond what…
Carl - I think people will be surprised by Hayden’s performance.
Darth Tardy - He looks broken in that photo, he does. He looks… something’s not right.
Carl - He’s more in his element in this film.
Moriarty - I think it’s interesting, ‘cause some critics are always going to have trouble with Hayden. It’s not Lucas or the way Lucas directed him. People are always going to be divided about Hayden. He seems to inspire real division in terms of critical reaction.
Carl - And I wonder if Mark Hamill did…
Moriarty - If you look at SHATTERED GLASS, and the reaction to that in Toronto. Some people really liked it and other people still don’t feel any chemistry with Hayden, and they don’t pick up anything off of him. He’s got a peculiar way of speaking, a peculiar sort of presence that I will always keep some people outside. And I just think that is one of the choices that Lucas made in casting… “I’m going with a kid that some people are not going to like.” And that is not going to change. It’s not his performance, it’s him.
General ruckus erupts as The Hellboy shows up at this point. Moriarty and Carl Cunningham talk about the side-by-side pics of Anakin from EP3 and Luke from ROTJ that Moriarty had not seen and which Carl thought were amazing and spot-on physical matches. After some chatter about the well-being of some the Council members’s spouses, we get back to business. Just a footnote – it’s not often that this group of people can break away from their schedules to meet en masse, so catch-up talk is to be expected, as well as banter about other movies that have recently been released. For the sake of brevity, and the transcriber’s sanity, some of the irrelevant chatter is going to be skipped.
Conversation starts to get back to the topic at hand, and the name “Sifo-Dyas” is brought up. Several council members cannot control themselves and jump in all at once…
Obi-Swan - Who the hell is Sifo-Dyas? He had to be a real Jedi… right?
Carl - He was.
Obi-Swan – So, they just used his name probably.
Carl - Well, I mean… there’s no… it’s not a coincidence that it’s the same time as THE PHANTOM MENACE. Let’s put it that way.
Moriarty - That it was the same time as what?
Carl - That it was the same time as THE PHANTOM MENACE that the clones were ordered, Sifo-Dyas was killed… and all that.
MrBeaks – So basically, Sifo-Dyas was billing it on the Underhill account…
Carl- (Laughter) Yeah… exactly. Oh, no… here comes the worst part of the film.
On the screen is the scene in ATTACK OF THE CLONES where Anakin attempts to ride a Shaak to impress Padme as they frolic in the flower-filled fields of Naboo. Everyone groans.
JedtheHutt - All ass.
Obi-Swan - THIS is when he turned to the Dark Side… when he fell off the creature. That’s what I think. Because, look, when he turns over…
Moriarty - See, this effect in general is almost always difficult. Riding something that is not there… nobody gets that right.
Carl - Yeah. It’s bad in FELLOWSHIP, too…
Everyone starts talking at once, offering up what they think are the worst effect shots of this nature… Legolas pulling himself up on a horse in THE TWO TOWERS, MATRIX, etc. During this, JedtheHutt manages to get spoiled for MATRIX: REVOLUTIONS, Carl Cunningham and Obi-Swan talk about STAR WARS IN 30 MINUTES, and rapport is built with some of the newer members of the group. There is one last call for people to look at pictures and such so the discussion can really begin. Again.
Moriarty - Actually, it’s been a little while since the last one we did and there has been quite a bit that has occurred since then. One of the first things that we’ll talk about today is something that I brought up with people who were here early, and that was a really outrageously silly rumor that we ran from somebody that has since proved out as being true. In addition, uh, it turns out not to be as silly as we thought. And I printed the original text so I could read it again today:
“I have seen the official presentation by Lucasfilm for Episode III. Below is a summary of the first part. I will send more when I have a chance.”
Moriarty – He sent a version of the title crawl that he said was in front of this licenser’s presentation, made up mainly of animatics and illustrations:
“The clone wars continue on and the war is being fought above Coruscant. The separatist forces have captured Chancellor Palpatine. Two Jedi, Obi-Wan and Anakin, have found out where Palpatine is being held and lead a Squad of clones to rescue the Chancellor...”
Moriarty – He’s probably paraphrasing, since I’ve also been sent another version of the opening crawl as it supposedly stood in late September, which I’ll quote here as well:
“For three years the Great Clone War has ravaged the galaxy. Starvation and misery stalk countless worlds.
Although near defeat, Count Dooku and his Confederacy of Independent Systems have masterminded the capture of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.
With the mighty Armada of the Republic behind them, Jedi Knights Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker pursue Dooku and his sinister agents across the galaxy...”
Moriarty- Now, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of either one. I’m not sure how exact that second one is, but he said as of September, that is where it stood. The scene that was described was a space battle over Coruscant, with Palpatine being held prisoner. There’s a major star battle that occurs that leads into the Jedi on board the ship where they track the Chancellor down. And they deal with a droid captain, who our scooper actually described as “General Grievous”. That was the name that he used here, and it was the name that was recently confirmed on the official site. I’ve also just heard “droid captain”, things like that, and ah… and the claim was that then Dooku and Anakin fight over Palpatine, that Anakin is the one who kills Dooku there, and in doing so becomes a… what he believes is a hero, and he becomes very bound to Palpatine for the rest of the movie. Um, when we ran that rumor, it was dismissed as bunk, complete bunk, by almost everybody immediately. But since then, several things have happened, or have been revealed online, been revealed in different places, that seem to back that rumor up. And I guess I wanted to throw that out there. Let’s discuss… what do you think of the idea for the opening, and let’s also discuss the veracity of it.
Obi-Swan - Well, there is a quote from Rick McCallum in which he said that the space battle at the beginning of this movie is the grandest space battles of all the movies. Has anyone else heard that?
Sarah - Yes…
Carl - That could just be “McCallumspeak™”. But then again, it could be very true. He might be right.
Mr.Beaks - “McCallumspeak™” not being sanctioned by Lucas, necessarily.
Carl - There is “McCallumspeak™” and there is “Lucasspeak™”.
Mr.Beaks - Right.
Darth Tardy - “McCallumspeak™” always being the “grandest” of all the movies…
Carl - Sometimes they are the same…
Hellboy - That’s because he is a schmoozy producer.
Obi-Swan - Sure.
Carl - I do think that they were disappointed with the space battle in Episode I, as we all were. And I think they’re out to prove something with this one. I have heard it described as “the” space battle. You know, the movie is set up a lot like JEDI in reverse…
Moriarty - That is what it feels like in terms of what I am hearing…
Carl - Instead, you begin this movie with a large space battle and you end the movie with a few characters on a desert planet. So, it’s like JEDI in reverse. And there are scenes throughout that are going to mirror JEDI directly...
Moriarty - I would say with Palpatine especially, you are going to have moments that are going to have to be very close to what we see in JEDI. That power struggle that he tries to set up at the end between Vader and Luke, we gotta see a version of that in this film.
Darth Tardy - Or a few.
Moriarty - Or two. Or three even. I mean, it sounds like that is his trick. Like that is how he really forces people to make choices…
Carl - He pulls the Dark Side out of them.
Moriarty - Now we’re hearing that… again, this is all rumor, and I’m not sure how accurate it is… but we’re hearing that there is both an Anakin/Dooku fight and that Anakin and Mace also fight, sort of at Palpatine’s antagonism. And I am curious how accurate that is, and if so… what that means. If that is really the moment where he makes the choice. If he makes the choice between Palpatine and Mace, who he knows speaks for the Jedi, is that really where he takes his step? Is that a turning point for him? Because Dooku, I could see how you could justify how he would still believe he was doing right by killing Dooku, and especially if it’s a capture and a set-up and he believes that he is rescuing somebody. But killing Mace, that’s something you can’t really… I can’t think you could justify that.
Carl - Yeah, one big thing is that the turn is supposed to hinge on Anakin being betrayed. Or at least, feeling very strongly that he had been betrayed by Obi-Wan and the Jedi
Moriarty - OK…
Carl - So that’s what we have to try to figure out, focus on. They’re saying that without any pretense, he feels betrayed, he snaps, and that is when he makes the decision. It’s a crystallized moment…
Several of group members all jump in at once what could cause that moment, with several cries of “Padme” being heard above the din.
Carl - But it’s really a lot about Anakin and Obi-Wan. So that’s where you can throw a lot of the speculation rumors involving a possible love triangle, or… because to me and my friend Adam Parr, from StarWarsFan.Org & Prequel Watch, we’ve thrown this about a lot… could it really just be that Obi-Wan finds out about the marriage and turns Anakin in and he gets expelled? We hope not. That wouldn’t be strong enough for us.
Moriarty - No. And I can’t think that…
Carl - That’s just not strong enough….
Darth Tardy - … but the Jedi must find out and he becomes a pariah after that.
Carl - You could go this way with that: Obi-Wan finds out and confronts Anakin and Padme, and puts some things in motion that puts Padme in danger, and she dies or whatever. Because then Palpatine could say, “Hey, they would not let you go to your mother, and she died. They wouldn’t let you see Padme, and she’s gone.”
Moriarty - And how much of that could be a lie?
Hellboy - Exactly.
Carl - Right. She could still be alive even if Anakin were to be convinced she’s dead.
Moriarty - I think the right lie told there could be very important and very potent. If he does something for a reason that he believes, and he’s misled, there is real tragedy inherent in that.
Carl - But I do believe, and I don’t know if they’ve gone on the record, but I do know that or at least strongly hinted at the fact that Obi-Wan does some things that are shady as well. Like he does pretty much betray Anakin, but there is a danger of going too far there, because you don’t want it look like Anakin really didn’t have a choice but to go one way.
Obi-Swan - You know what is interesting about that? In the original script for Episode I, when I read it before the film came out, it seemed like Lucas was painting Obi-Wan as kind of a dick. But in the film, he scaled it back. Or maybe it was Ewan McGregor’s performance, and maybe he made some decisions where he wasn’t so much of a dick.
Carl - And Obi-Wan’s gotta mess up royally in EP3. One of the jokes in the early outlines for all three films, was they had the silly titles. There was “The Beginning”, and then Episode II was “Jar Jar’s Big Adventure”, and Episode III probably was, “Obi-Wan’s Big Fuck-up.”
Hellboy - Well, isn’t all about Obi-Wan? Isn’t about Obi-Wan making mistakes?
Chorus of agreement from Mr.Beaks, Carl Cunningham, and a few other members.
Hellboy - He was never ready to train this kid. It’s a problem already. It’s Yoda’s big mess-up.
Darth Tardy – Well, then, it’s everyone’s big mess-up.
Carl - And that is why they have to stick around during the Original Trilogy… to fix this mess that they have put the galaxy in.
Mxyzlptlk - Was it their fuck-up or Palpatine’s plan?
Carl - Well, I think we’re going to find out that its really both.
Moriarty - I will say this... I think that the one place that he nailed it, through all three films, has been in the handling of Palpatine.
Carl - A lot of that is Ian McDiarmid, too.
Moriarty - I think he’s a great, great character. I think there is something wonderful about a character who we haven’t seen show his hand yet, but whose influence has been felt through both films thus far.
Obi-Swan- … and it’s going to pay off big-time…
Moriarty – Oh, and when it does… I love the rumor that broke over the last couple of days... I think it was TheForce.Net that broke it... about how he changes his appearance, because it explains a lot. It explains how the Jedi don’t know who he is. If he’s executing his will to look a certain way and be a certain way, and when he drops that mask and we see the real Sidious... if he is that corrupted, withered thing that we are used to, I think it’s going to be shocking. I think it’s going to be a great reveal finally, and a great pay-off.
Carl - The way these movies are set up, people who are expecting a big twist in EP3 are going to be disappointed. And this can be debated for years, whether you watch the movies I-II-II-IV-V-VI or IV-V-VI-I-II-III. That’s just a personal choice. But the way the films are set up, our big twist was Vader being Luke’s father in EMPIRE. We’re not getting that this time. This time, people who have no idea what is going on… hard to believe, but they are out there… their twists are the Palpatine deal, and Anakin turning. That’s what they’re going for… they want those people and people watching the films for the first time numerically to go, “Holy crap!” when Palpatine reveals his true self and Anakin makes the decision.
Obi-Swan - The kids who saw Episode I first…
Carl - They’re going to lose the “I’m your father” reveal when they watch them in sequence.
Obi-Swan - Right.
Carl - That’s going to be no surprise to them.
Hellboy - And that’s the best plot.
Carl - That is one reason why I think the Palpatine/clone rumors are ridiculous. People are just hanging on to that because they desperately want this big twist that we don’t see coming… but it won’t happen.
Moriarty - See, I think it makes a lot of sense describing it as a force of will that he is exerting, that keeps him guarded…
Darth Tardy - Have you read the latest post on there where it is specifically done?
Moriarty - We’ve heard that early on there is a quick reveal where he is in the middle of something and it “slips”, and there is a moment where we see just the face for a moment, and then he puts it back.
Darth Tardy - I don’t know if this is true, but I have heard that the reveal happens when Mace goes to visit, and it slips while Mace is in the room and Mace says something or does something, and then Palpatine unleashes on Mace, shoots lighting bolts or some shit, and then he tells Anakin he’s gotta make a choice.
Moriarty - See, that was what we were discussing, but the choice should be more about…
Darth Tardy – It’s just a rumor… I don’t know if that is true, but then the Jedi would still not know who he is…
Hellboy - I think that is a dangerous thing there, because if we’re playing off what we discussed before and that he has to make a choice because he feels betrayed by Mace, and they’ve set up Mace Windu kinda being above it all and a little arrogant…
Carl – Well, they started that in the first film…
Moriarty - Mace flat out looked him in the eye and said, no, don’t train that kid…
Carl - And one of Jake Lloyd’s few good moments was that look he gave him.
Darth Tardy - It was one of his best moments… he looked like he wanted to kill him.
Carl - That might actually have a pay-off in this now.
Hellboy - So for Palpatine to accidentally reveal himself as Darth Sidious, I think kinda changes everything.
Carl - And that does not seem like Palpatine, either. He’s so close to the vest, and has control over everything…
Moriarty - He’s been careful; there have been no sloppy moves so far.
Carl - He’s very keen in that the only time he really messes up is in JEDI when he has no clue that Vader is about to pick him up and throw him in the pit.
Mr.Beaks - Right.
Carl - That just completely baffles him.
Hellboy - I just always read that as single-minded hate that he lost.
Carl - I don’t see him slipping on a banana-peel and just switching on accident. If he does, there is a designed reason behind it. That rumor almost kinda seemed like…
Hellboy - The interesting thing there is going to be the Dooku thing at the beginning. Like, I’ve always felt, and I don’t know how you guys felt about it, but I always felt that his discussion with Obi-Wan… I’m going to play this guy because I know better...
Moriarty – It’s very honest.
Carl - … playing both sides.
Hellboy - … if he has fallen to the Dark Side…
Carl - Lucas could play it that way and it would be really powerful.
Moriarty - I don’t think he trusts Palpatine completely. I think there is a lot of distrust there.
Obi-Swan - He’s a Sith. Isn’t Count Dooku a Sith?
Hellboy - I don’t think so. I think he is subverting from within… like, he figured it out…
Obi-Swan – It’s either he’s a Sith, or he is the original leader of the rebellion.
Carl - Well, technically, he is anyway, because the Confederacy establishes the beginning of the rebellion, because Mon Mothma and Bail Organa and all those guys side with them over the Republic in Episode III.
Moriarty - So if you see that at the beginning of this one, he could legitimately turn into a fallen hero...
Hellboy - Yeah…
Moriarty - … who just happened to have a moment where he fought Yoda because that was the way the shit came down.
Mxyzlptlk, Hellboy, Mr. Beaks, and Darth Tardy all jumping in about Dooku… can’t tell what they are saying because it’s all excitable talk on top of each other.
Darth Tardy - But his lightsaber is clearly not a Jedi lightsaber…
Mxyzlptlk - But look… it’s like Vader telling Luke, “Join me”. The Sith are always trying to destroy each other…
Carl - Yeah, but that to me is way too corny. That the Sith just lie all the time. Why would he just come out and tell him the truth like that?
Hellboy - Because it’s also a difficult thing like that, because obviously Darth Maul was bred, you know, or he was found. If you believe this EU stuff, he was bred and brought up that way. Sidious loses him and he has to find somebody, and what if Dooku had been kinda tracking everything at the time and they kinda came together? He’s like, ok…
Moriarty - We have so little screen time and so much that fans want answered, and you know that there are choices that will be made…
Carl - A big waste of story time…
Moriarty - Yeah, there are going to be things that he answers and things that he won’t, and there are always going to be things that are going to just make fans crazy.
Darth Tardy - Well, I hope that he clears up that Sifo-Dyas thing. I’ve been sitting here for years saying, “Who the hell is Sifo-Dyas?”
Moriarty - There is a lot of dialogue…
Carl - I think a lot of fans are setting themselves up for disappointment, because a lot of that stuff is simple. A lot of that is just Palpatine.
JedtheHutt - Sifo-Dyas/Sidious…
Carl - Well, you know in the original script, it wasn’t Sifo-Dyas, it was Sido-Dyas…
Darth Tardy – It’s not so much that, but Mace seems to know who he is…
Carl - They recognize who he was, and what makes it interesting is that he was an actual Jedi character. So Lucas has given himself an out to play a couple of options there… and what I get from a lot of the implications is that Jedi characters like Qui-Gon and Dooku were kinda outsiders because they tended to embrace the Dark Side and try to figure it out more often than the other Jedi had.
Obi-Swan - Are they going to go back to the Jedi holocron and the Sith holocron… do you remember that from Episode II?
Darth Tardy - I hope not.
Obi-Swan - Where it was like…
Darth Tardy - That’s EU stuff too…
Obi-Swan - But it was actually in the movie, I think, or was planned to be in the movie… what happened to Dooku is that he studied the Sith holocron too much. And that is what led to him leaving…
Carl - And he decided to leave.
Obi-Swan - And also I heard he left after Qui-Gon Jinn was killed…
Moriarty - Well, they had the whole thing about the “Lost 20” that they cut…
Carl - Why would they cut that unless they thought they were going to go into a different direction for EP3? You could always put that back in. That’s the interesting thing, its still very much kept under wraps whether or not Qui-Gon is even going to be involved in Episode III. I think he is going to be involved, at least through exposition, because of the whole Jedi maintaining identity after death subplot.
Mxyzlptlk - Which they say they’ve already filmed the scene…
Carl - Yeah. That’s basically Yoda coming to Obi-Wan and saying, “We can do this, and this can help us in very powerful ways.”
Obi-Swan - This might be our only weapon.
Carl - In that Tusken Raider scene, Yoda hears Qui-Gon, but he doesn’t say anything to anybody. So I don’t know if there is going to be another scene like that in the movie where he starts to put it together or if Qui-Gon just appears and comes out and says, “Hey! It’s time to show you my new trick” Because in one of the original outlines for ROTJ, which was really cool and would have been great if they would have left it in, there was a big huge battle royale at the end. It wasn’t just Luke and Vader; it was Luke and Vader and Palpatine, and all of a sudden, Obi-Wan and Yoda show up, and they’re actually…
Darth Tardy - … I heard about that…
Carl - … they manifest themselves back physically and it’s all of them going at it. And basically, the turn is whether or not Vader is going to help the other three kill Palpatine once and for all. And, obviously, he does. And now, with what happened in the prequels, I think that would have been so much more powerful.
Moriarty - Are we going to get an answer to the de-materialization? We had a theory to who…
Carl - I think so, because they talk about…
Moriarty - What was the theory we had talked about recently involving the vanishing? Who can vanish, who can’t…
Obi-Swan - The only thing that we talked about was the possibility that maybe, like what you just said, that Qui-Gon comes back and says, “Hey, while I was dead I figured something out.”
Carl - Well, he was always… they discussed this, I don’t know if it was in the text of Episode I they discussed this, but definitely in some versions of the script and the novel, about the different versions of the Force. That Qui-Gon was always adept at what was called the “Living” Force…
Darth Tardy - And Obi-Wan was the “Universal” Force.
Carl - Right. And I think the Living Force was where all the weird Midichlorian stuff was going. The Living Force was the one that the Jedi didn’t like because it was the one where the Dark Side got its power.
Hellboy - It was very grey.
Carl - It wasn’t the mystical one, it was the more physical, where you could draw power from the life force around you.
Obi-Swan - Because if you listen to Obi-Wan describe the Force to Luke in ANH…
Carl - … he’s describing the mystical one…
Obi-Swan - … it’s very different from how Qui-Gon describes it to Anakin.
Darth Tardy - Well, they give a very good explanation between the two if you read the novel…
Carl - Right, but Qui-Gon tells him to “be mindful of the Living Force”.
Darth Tardy - But when Obi-Wan says that he has a “strange feeling about this”, that’s him being tapped into a different part of the Force Qui-Gon is not. He goes, “Strange, I don’t… aren’t you feelings clear on this?” Well, that’s another point, that’s the Emperor. He says he does not sense anything.
Obi-Swan - Does he lie? Does he sense something?
Darth Tardy - I don’t think so. I think he is more tapped into…
Carl - I think it’s going to basically come from that. That he was so tapped into the Living Force that when he died he was able to maintain himself in the netherworld. I don’t know if they are going to call it that… the “netherworld”. They did in the original JEDI drafts… “the Force Netherworld”… where instead of becoming one with the Force, they were able to maintain their identity and just kinda float along. So maybe they disappear because they learned to do that before they died. So as soon as they are struck down or they die or whatever, they keep their identity. Because, obviously, Yoda shows up at the end of JEDI, too.
Darth Tardy - It could be something else, because it’s not like Luke whispered the secret to Anakin just before he went into the netherworld.
Obi-Swan - Maybe Qui-Gon came to Anakin after he was stuck down in some sort of netherworld or whatever, but clearly, when Obi-Wan is struck down, Anakin…
Moriarty -… well, he already knows the trick, because he is ready to do it.
Obi-Swan - Yeah, but Darth Vader doesn’t know…CLICK HERE FOR MORE!!
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Bill Murray rocks
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Episode I and II sucked and still you hold out hope that Ep III will be good? Keep on dreaming, you dreamers...
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They cut out just about every terrible scene and some bad dialoge. It made the movie rock way more.
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Oct 26, 2003 5:20:39 AM CST
Is anyone else just completely sick to death of Star Wars?
by rolling_stone
Two good movies and three bad ones. Not a great record. Same with the going downhill aspect.
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http://www.filmthreat.com/Interviews.asp?Id=8
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to do Ep I-III! Do you remember this scene from Reign of Fire, when they played Empire for the children? When all the kids were shocked as they learned that Vader was Luke's father? I felt the same. It made Empire big. And nothing like it will happen in EpIII. Lukas should have done EpVII-IX. But I guess he simply has no clue, how the saga should continue. Damn him! I mean, it's obvious: he already has immense struggle with the story for the prequels! Better not hope for the sequels.
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I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I've got a question which I'd like to have answered: How does Darth Vader / Anakin Skywalker know that he has a son and that Luke is it? From the different ideas you (the Jedi Council) have thrown out, there will be some betrayal (real or perceived) of Anakin by the Jedi / Obi-Wan. This betrayal may or may not have to do with Padme's fate. Obviously, we know that she doesn't die for a little while since Leia says she remembers her mother in ROTJ so it's safe to assume that she won't die at the end of Ep. III. She will give birth to twins and one (Leia) will go with Padme to live on Alderaan while the other (Luke) will be taken to Tatooine (sp?) to live with the Lars family. The only thing I can come up with is either Anakin was present when Luke was born but not Leia or the Emperor told him about Luke after the destruction of the first Death Star (between Eps. IV & V). If anyone has an answer, I'd sure like to hear it. Because from where I'm sitting, that seems to be a pretty darned important issue that no one seems to really be concerned with addressing.
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I still think that Padme is going to have a "fake death" before she has a "real death", and the first is going to involve the kids too. I think Obi-Wan is going to fake her death while she's pregnant to trick Sidious, but Anakin thinks it's real and that's what pushes him over the edge (and also explains why he doesn't know about his kids). I think the plan will backfire even worse because Sidious will know all about it. All of this, of course, is probably wrong.
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Oct 26, 2003 9:15:48 AM CST
I should be in the next Jedi Council for my giant, lightsaberish
by boris the blade
Do you guys close the meeting with a collective circle jerk? Nerddom at its finest.
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Oct 26, 2003 9:32:32 AM CST
I think the sequel should be called Star Wars Episode III: A No
by chaffro
"It is a period of civil war. Phil Tippet spaceships, striking from a hidden base in San Rafael CA, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Industrial Light & Magic. During the battle, plasticine Tippet
spies didn't manage to steal secret plans to the Emperor Lucas'
ultimate weapon, his DEATH BRAIN, an armored lost-in-space station with enough power to destroy an entire franchise. Pursued by the Lucas' sinister yes-men, no-one races home aboard their hand-made starship, custodian of any ideas that can save the audience and restore freedom to the series... Oh, brother." -
Hello to all. A couple of pointers, first one in ref to the council's hypothesis on Dooko's allegiance. I think the fact that when he addresses a "A Dark Lord of the Sith" as "Master", its a fairly safe bet that he is also aligned to the Sith. So much for the widsom of the council. Secondly, and this is a biggy - Go Home! I feel pity for each and every one of these so-called "spouses" if they indeed a. Are human or b. Exist. You read so finely between the lines when there is nothing to see, you are scrutinising every nuance when, hey, its Star Wars, not Harold Pinter. Lucas' directorial style would never encompass such subtleties as facial expressions, he puts the players on set and lets them get on with it. And bloody hell, you're contriving and inventing such inticate speculation from thin air - do you really think that the guy who wrote TPM would really have such elaborate machinations in mind eg he glanced this way to suggest this, but he really meant to imply that to the other guy IF indeed it was raining that day etc. Its so banal. The best bit is, I'm finishing work soon, I'm going home to my (hot-damn!) girlfriend and gonna get a damn-good rubbin'. I suggest all those that can do the latter too. Those that can't, ask yourselves why. Live Forever...
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You will see the truth. Some questions... Why is it so obvious, even to little kids by the end of TPM, that Sidious is Palpatine if it is supposed to be a secret? How come there is no direct on-screen evidence that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same, only half clues that rely on audience inference? Why will Lucas talk about big spoilers for future audiences like Vader's identity, but not the relationship between Palpatine and Sidious? Why would the lead villain risk discovery by hanging out in a room with the top Jedi? Why is the danger of assumption a repeated theme in the PT? Why does Dooku tell Obi that the Senate is under the control of a Sith, unless to send the Jedi on a wild goose chase? Why were midichlorians introduced in the first act? Why aren't the clonetroopers made from a Jedi or Sith? Why haven't we seen Sidious's eyes? Why do the Kaminoans go to great lengths to explain the obedience of clones? Why does Anakin explain other behavior modification technology like the bombs implanted in slaves? Why would the villain allow himself to be put in danger during a staged kidnapping? Face it, the PT Palpatine is a force-free puppet used by Sidious to attain the highest office. I've got more points, but this is off the top of my head. I'm still waiting for the "Essay Addressing Timeless Assumption: Palpatine is Nefarious Interloper Sidious." by the great Emos-Edud. I hope he's doing okay in the army. Maybe he'll get to finish the essay while on Christmas break from basic training...
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I love Moriarty, he rules, but this long winded stuff about Star Wars has got to stop. I mean I can do this same bit of speculating with my friends. This is Ain't It Cool News, not Ain't it Cool Rumors, although that is what this site has turned into. And no where in this article did they mention who completly wrong they were about everything during the last session. I remember in the last session they were all like, "This is what is going to happen and that is why it will suck" and then McCullum came out a wek later saying what is and isn't going to be in EpIII and it basically shot down everything this worthless council was talking abot to begin with.
Why do I keep comming back to this worthless site? WHY???
okay i am done ranting. I promice. -
Oct 26, 2003 12:38:49 PM CST
No suprises here... so much for "Spoiler free for episode III !"
by kampbell-kid
I think looking into certain plot elements too much will only lead to that persons disapointment of the films true final narrative. Or rephrase, this councils. :) I think the only trick up Lucas's sleeve is the masterminded plot behind Palpatine. These other things like Obi-Wan betrayal or why/how Jedi turn into "ghosts" are really very simple answers. Simple answers being George Lucas pulls his ideas from serials and Akira K. films etc. Not so much betrayal, but Obi-Wan and Anakin have been obviously setup having just creative differences of opinions and destinys. Just Anakin making a concious decision that he must destory his master to be "all powerful". As for Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan being the only ghosts that appear phyiscally in the films after they are dead are simply what basic ghosts are supposed to be. Unrested souls that have "unfinished business", guilt, tourmented, compelled to stay in the living to undo what went wrong. They come back as "visions" to guide those that can help fix what they couldn't do or did wrong. I mean cummon why would Yoda hermit himself and hide forever on some swamp toilet of a planet. He obviously felt endangered and guilty... and the way Frank Oz portrayed him in the older films was very sad, depressed, wise, and reserved. When I was a kid the Yoda scenes in Empire captivated me but also depressed me that I'd skip them till the beautiful Cloud City scenes. I think Palpatine wanted this all to happen... this was his plan... MANIPULATION of all characters and parties. People make mistakes when they have no good choices to make or when to reach an answer you have to do what you don't want to do.
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Guess he must've mistaken it for my childhood or something.
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Count Dooku is also known as Darth Tyrannus. Sounds pretty Sithish to me.
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Hi,
My name is Fernwick and I am a Star Wars'aholic. Or I WAS one before the the prequel trilogy.
I would like for someone here since this is supposely contact heaven to once and for all comment on www.supershadow.com
This 'contact' claims to speak to Lucas weekly or montly, have a copy of the written script, claims to have been told that Lucas will allow him to do the sequel trilogy after his death. And has a LARGE following who swear by God he is telling the truth. Claims to be IN Episode II and says he will be a Jedi in episode III. I have emailed Star Wars.com's website and they wont respond but I cant stand to see this guy lie, IF he is lying but everyone seems to pretend he doesnt exist. He of course claims this is because of jealousy to his inside contacts. Moriarty!! HARRY!! Someone comment!!!!
Fernwick -
For a while there, I too assumed Palpatine was a clone since the Jedi Council didn't all freak out when standing in the same room with such a jaw-dropping concentration of the Dark Side of the Force. Unfortunately, I think Lucas already killed that one by saying that the Dark Side "clouds" everything. I think that's an afterthought of his, but it gives him an excuse to keep the Jedi clueless about the villain in their midst. Which is fine with me, at this point. Lucas has already completely demystified and devalued the Jedi Order, making them a bunch of weak-minded dupes who deserve what they get. It's a shame, because everybody I knew wanted to BE a Jedi, growing up. The way Obi-Wan spoke about it, becoming a Jedi sounded like achieving nirvana. Now, anybody can wield Jedi power if they have enough "midichlorians" in them, and Obi-Wan himself can be outwitted not only by a bounty hunter, but by a fucking five-year-old padawan. And, as far as Anakin goes, he's one of the worst. He got beaten by an old man in AOTC, and by the inevitability of the next film, we're gonna see him get chopped to pieces. AGAIN. Lucas has not shown us anything particularly amazing about Anakin Skywalker. He couldn't even bring himself to show Anakin wiping out that whole village of Tusken Raiders. We just get to hear about it in a whiny, tearful confession to a young woman who doesn't let it stop her from marrying the idiot (and who can apparently easily survive anything that a Jedi can). You know where I think this whole thing derailed? It wasn't even the script for THE PHANTOM MENACE - it was Lucas choosing Jake Lloyd over that other kid in the final three casting choices on the DVD - the quiet, weird blond kid. You know who I'm talking about? THAT kid was Anakin Skywalker - not the happy-go-lucky soapbox derby-winner that we actually got. He even looked more like Mark Hamill. I would have bought that THAT kid could eventually snap and start killing people and become Vader. And, all it would have taken was a scene where Anakin is working on his pod racer or something, and Jar Jar does something annoying, and Anakin hits him or yells at him, like a kid who suddenly kicks a harmless puppy. Then you could say, "All right - THIS kid could turn into a destroyer of worlds." (It might also have given the annoying-but-goodhearted Jar Jar a little more significance.) As it is, though, I've never bought Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader. And, not even as a Jedi. If it were up to me, Anakin would have been an exemplary Jedi - not a rogue - who had just enough of an edge over the others to defeat them. Instead, everybody's a screw-up, and Anakin is being herded toward the Dark Side rather than seduced. As such, no matter what Lucas has him do in the new film, it hasn't been set up well enough. I will see EPISODE III, but I really couldn't care less how it turns out at this point.
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If you read this, please let me know how I can get hold of a Chaffro shirt. I've seen two people wearing one now, and neither time I was in a position to ask them where they were from! As for Star Wars, I reckon it's just a case of wait and see these days. But I still support the theory that Qui-Gonn was working for the Sith. Watch Phantom Menace again, with that in mind, and the whole thing becomes a lot more sinister. Look who's desperate to train Anakin, look who doesn't care what the Council thinks, look at who was Dooku's padawan learner...
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But, then again, the willingness to sit around for hours on end and jack off about films that someone else makes is what separates true film geeks from those who just like a good flick. I'm proud to say that I stopped myself after wasting five minutes of my life on this, took another 90 seconds to post this quick flame, and then moved on. I recommend everyone on this "council" look in the mirror, decide whether or not they could contribute more to the world by doing something else with their time, and then go volunteer in a hospital or something.
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While this talkback has so far been more interesting than most recent SW discussions, it seems that some people are still insistant on perpetrating the same tired "Luca$ the hack raped my childhood", "Prequels are [insert favorite scatological term]", "SW is dead, join us in LotR fandom" routines. Now it's perfectly OK to hate the prequels (which no one believes are anything near perfect) but if you REALLY want to show just how "dead" SW is - DON'T POST ANYTHING ON SW TALKBACKS. Just imagine what a message could be sent if a review of some obscure sub-Saharan film got more posts than EPISODE III! The fact that people still take the time to write the same nasty things, must prove something about the series...
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This has always bugged me. What's the deal with the bad guys all having red lightsabers? When they turn evil do they go down to the Sith Store and trade their old ones in? I used to have a theory that the color of the blade reflects the Force of its wielder-- remember the first time Luke tried out His Father's Lightsaber? In the original edition, the blade was WHITE, and I always figured it was because he was an innocent with no experience or training. Then the 'special' edition came along and the blade turned blue--turns out it was just a limitation of the original special effect. I like my idea better.
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This has always bugged me. What's the deal with the bad guys all having red lightsabers? When they turn evil do they go down to the Sith Store and trade their old ones in? I used to have a theory that the color of the blade reflects the Force of its wielder-- remember the first time Luke tried out His Father's Lightsaber? In the original edition, the blade was WHITE, and I always figured it was because he was an innocent with no experience or training. Then the 'special' edition came along and the blade turned blue--turns out it was just a limitation of the original special effect. I like my idea better.
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Oct 26, 2003 4:41:31 PM CST
What Is And What Should Never Be OR... Some Dude, Some Points
by jollydwarf
Sorry, Some Dude, your clone theory SHOULD--repeat SHOULD--be right. It's just that from everything I've read, it's not. I mean, how out-of-touch must Georgie Porgie be to make the twist something that even 'slow' kindergartners could piece together during their first viewing of "Menace"? So assorted fanboys guessed the clone angle? Big fookin' deal! Do it anyway! Just like the 'Lucas Logic' of calling Ep. III "Revenge of the Sith" (Only seven million SW geeks independently came to THAT conclusion). Of course, I thought Mace was a traitor, the "Judas" figure, and the Kamino-eraser, as well as "Sifo-Dyas" (read the AOTC novelization and see if you don't agree). So whatta I know? Oh, and Windu and Dooku being old friends even makes everything MORE grey, as maybe Mace was helping Dooku, not knowing that Dooku was an agent of the Sith. And maybe Dooku ISN'T truly loyal to Palps. His betrayal could either be for personal (power) gain or to get close enough for an "Et tu, Dooku?" moment (Dooku, being an unorthodox Jedi saw what was happening and figured a head-on attack of Sidious would never work). Of course only the Chosen One could actually do that. I just have a hard time accepting that the collective Jedi council can't see "through" Palpatine. Having a Force-free clone of Sidious would explain sooo much. Instead, it seems like Lucas saw Will Ferrell's Neil Diamond skit and ran with his "...and I can turn invisible if I try real hard" line and ran with it. We may indeed get the "hands-down" best prequel in Episode III, but something tells me that anything that could actually be considered a "twist" or "mindfuck" will be ultimately "eschewed", because the "target audience" that the Prequel Camp keeps referencing are simple-minded kiddies. No two ways about it. Hayden himself recently said that this is a very dark prequel, but it's being made with its "target audience" in mind. Hmm. No mystery in who that is, either.
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.....but he certainly is an ass-clown, isn't he folks?
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...but that's not gonna help you Fizzy Cherry, because I don't think you live in Australia. My biggest concern over SW is that Georgie-Boy will figure that it will be cheaper to completely re-make Epsiodes IV-VI than to 'upgrade' them more like the Special Editions. Ashton Kutcher for Han Solo and Seann William Scott for Luke Skywalker, Demi Moore as Mon Mothma, Tara Reid as Princess Leia and Hulk Hogan as Chewbacca. Man, that last one actually works.
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I'm not so sure that they're the same guy.The closing scenes in Ep2 seem to coinside and take place some distance apart.How did Sideous get from some shittied up industrial area to the Center of Government so quickly? Or they could be so far apart that P/S got to enjoy that Courisant sunset twice.Hmmmm.
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I feel that EP1 did infact come close to the feel of the original trilogy. 1. Liam Neeson: he expressed a elderly wisdom and humanity that you just dont get out of a cgi muppet. 2. Darth Maul: Maul was a strong character that lives outside of EP1. His make-up and double sided lightsaber are his, and is paid tribute to in many cartoons and movies i.e (JASBSB). There is not a single frame of EP2 that has that same iconic feel. 3. John Williams Score: Although the space fight was sub-par in EP1 the music that it played to was great. "Dual of Fates". Episode 1 felt more mature and humaine, while EP2 was a joke. CGI battle at the end was a mess. Yoda was a joke, Hayden was a joke. The only part that showed maturity was the battle between Dooku and Anakin, the glow from their lightsabers gave it a cool atmosphere. Bouyaka!
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I would volunteer to make coffee and then I'd rub my cheesy knob around the rims of the cups before bringing them in.
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Oct 26, 2003 8:09:34 PM CST
So are we going to find out anything more about Anakin being a "
by frankdrebin
I haven't decided yet whether that's sacriligious or just plain stupid.
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This is not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. A sad, sad fact. Twenty years from now people will be watching the Original Trilogy and mumbling, "Goddamnit those prequels sucked."
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Ok, here's why some go ghost and others don't. Who have we seen turn to ghosts and return? Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan. All 3 of them died in the presence of Luke. This isn't to say that other Jedis don't have the power to do so, but we don't know if they do. Qui-Gon died, nothing happens. A lot of Jedi die on Geonosis, none of them turn to ghosts. This brings me to ask the question - why Luke?
Well, here's the theory part. Qui-Gon thought Anakin would be the one to bring balance to the force (a term we still haven't had explained. Why is it out of balance, How did it get that way? What exactly does that mean?), but what if he was wrong and the balance bringer was the next generation - the son of Anakin. He sensed it in Anakin, but maybe it wasn't him he was sensing, but the potential Anakin carried inside him. This is also why Palpatine and Vader were hell bent on finding Luke in Empire. After his presence was revealed to them at the end of ANH, they knew they needed to get their grubby little Sith mitts on him.
Well, chew on that. I've never seen discussed anywhere the fact that Jedi ghosts are the ones that die in front of Luke. Make of it what you will, but I think it's too much of a coincidence to be just coincidence. -
Wouldn't that be funny. I mean, having Anakin murder a prominant military officer and rise through the ranks of society all the while slipping in and out of the Clone Wars, would be kind of fun. Alas, the "real" Barry Lyndon was a work of cinematic beauty and I have not seen anything that comes close to the beauty it puts up, but it's like watching paint dry. If only George Lucas could've found a happy medium, something that follows the brilliant first half of BL, but managed to keep the excitement, and even build on it, all the while, plunging Anakin deeper and deeper away from our sympathies. Oh well, I'm just a crazy idiot. We all know this film is bound to disappoint, but we shouldn't be angry at anyone but ourselves for putting up such lofty expectations. It's ultimately up to yourself if you want to enjoy a movie, and if it doesn't meet your expectations, you have no one to blame but you. If you don't like it, don't dwell on it, if you do, feel free to pop it in the DVD player as many times as you like. Enough said.
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Yes, thank you Hellboy. I've been saying since the day after Clones opened that I think Dooku is going to parallel Lando in the original trilogy. Lando really seemed to screw everyone over, but really he was just forced into it. I think Dooku is going to be the same, and he was trying to reach out to Obi-Wan and warn him, really, that the Sith are in control.
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Palpatine is a slightly younger clone of Sideous. They are NOT one and the same.
... Mark my words. -
In Ep V, Yoda tells Luke that the Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. In Ep VI Yoda dies beside Luke in his bed, not in battle. In Ep IV Obi Wan dies at Vaders hand, but only after relinquishing his battle with Vader. These are the only two vanishings that take place by two Jedi. Qui Gon in bested by Darth Maul while in battle during Ep I, as are the many Jedi strewn about in the arena of Ep II. Just a theory.
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I and others been saying that since TPM.
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THE PHANTOM MENACE had three things that made me feel like Lucas was heading in the right direction: the pod race, Darth Maul, and Qui-Gon. Especially Qui-Gon. He's the only Jedi in the entire franchise who seemed like a Jedi, to me. And that's all Liam Neeson's doing. He brought a kind of zen to the role that nobody else has.
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Oct 27, 2003 3:54:55 AM CST
Episode 3 will suck ass no matter what the hell Lucas pulls.
by mr. high
Why? Because he has no fucking respect for his fans at all. He's even gone on record as saying he no respect for his fans. That and he's the white, middle aged version of Michael Jackson, there's too many toys in the attic. I'm not saying he molested anyone (although I wouldn't be surprised to find pictures of him humping a puppet) but the guy's not all there. I kind of wished he'd died right after "Jedi" and then someone with a little vision could've done something with the property. Anyhow, this is why Episode 3 will suck: Lucas is directing it. The man couldn't direct toasting a fucking pop tart. If you look at all of his earlier work, he's just not that skilled at all. He has foisted an entire generation of filmmakers on us that think screen wipes are cool. I applaud him for creating ILM and the first three "Star Wars" flicks, but COME ON! After the 'special editions' can ANYONE say they didn't see three, overblown suck ass, pieces of shit coming? Seriously. I'll go see it, I'll go see anything with the words "Star Wars" attached to it, because I'm stupid and keep hoping to recapture my youth. But, I have no faith it's going to be a good movie. I mean, C-3P0's LEGS????? GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! Anyone read "Toyfare"? They hit the asshole right in his crotch with the whole "The force is strong in these delicious marshmallow peeps." The guy could literally film a computer generated sock fighting with a lightsaber and some dumb ass would insist it was the greatest thing since oxygen. Who gives a rat's ass if it's any good or not? It's "Star Wars" and like Thankgiving with my drunk ass, fucking stupid in-laws, I will endure it out of an imagined obligation. (The fucking DVD's had better goddamn be sold seperately, I do not and will not own Episodes one and two for the same reason I don't own "Speed 2", "Batman and Robin" and "Men in Black 2" They really suck.)
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I thought Michael Jackson was the white, middle aged version of Michael Jackson.
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Oct 27, 2003 5:42:36 AM CST
The Wachowski's have and WILL continue to show the egomaniac Luc
by tricka
I'm just going to forget the prequels ever happened.
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We all know Grando=Lando!
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Oct 27, 2003 1:42:48 PM CST
So much speculation....but I'll bet Episode 3 doesn't explain AN
by minderbinder
Ep3 won't even mention midichlorians, probably won't explain the disappearing/ghost thing. And Sidious/Palpy will likely be the simplest, most obvious explanation (that everyone has ruled out for that reason). My biggest question about #3 is if Lucas has the balls to kill off Padme or will just leave her fate offscreen and unexplained.
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Oct 28, 2003 12:13:02 AM CST
I'm still under the impression that Michael Jackson was at one p
by mr. high
He was. I've seen pictures. But, it was a bad analogy. Let's just say Lucas has taken his place in the long line of directors, (Craven, Carpenter, Romero, Spielberg, Coppola, Hooper and DePalma I'm sure there's more, but the amount of suck ass directors currently flogging their crap in every cineplex in America is too staggering to type.) that should've left the show a long fucking time ago.
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The number of posts damning Lucas and breathing hate for the prequels always seems to outweigh the number which offer praise. Personally, when I see a link to a topic that brings up feelings of betrayal, I don't click it, let alone post some asinine opinion on how my childhood has been robbed. You act like Lucas is your high school sweetheart and you just caught her sleeping with your best friend. You try to trick yourself into thinking that you don't love her anymore, but you can't help looking at her in the hallways, or leaning in a little closer to a conversation that mentions her name. You're not going to see Episode III. Hoo-rah. Who gives a shit? Find another girlfriend.
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Jeeesh! You guys are in in thick! I mean, I'm a SW fan from '77, but holy crapola.
Like Homer Simpson barks out:
"N E R D S !"
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