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Quint reviews THE TWO TOWERS dvd!!
Ahoy, squirts. Quint here with my look at the nifty little TWO TOWERS DVD that is hitting shelves next Tuesday. Now I know that in a few months time, this edition will take a permanent rest on your DVD shelf when the TWO TOWERS EXTENDED EDITION comes out, but if you're at all like me then even though you know this is going to happen, you'll still be at Wal-Mart around 1am Monday night/Tuesday morning picking up your copy at their awesome sales prices.
And there is reason to grab a copy of this first TWO TOWERS DVD package. One thing that I like about the various special editions that have been coming out for LOTR is that the special features aren't repeated. On this 2-disc DVD you get the feature (which is worth the $15 by itself) and a second disc of extras like Sean Astin's short film, THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT, a behind the scenes of the making of that short, two documentaries that appeared on TV regarding THE TWO TOWERS, bunches of TV spots, trailers, previews of the ROTK video game (being put out once again by EA Games), the TWO TOWERS:EE DVD and a 10 plus minute preview of RETURN OF THE KING.
That last one is the one that'll get most of you out there Tuesday morning to get your copies, I'm sure... and let me tell you it's worth the purchase of the DVD... If that's your only reason for dropping your $15, then it's money well spent.
Below you'll find a detailed look at the extra features of the DVD with some of my personal insight from the time I spent onset. Particularly, there'll be a focus on the RETURN OF THE KING preview and the sneak peak at THE TWO TOWERS EXTENDED EDITION DVD... Let's get started, shall we?
-On The Set: "THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE TWO TOWERS" - Starz Encore Special: Fun. That's all there is to say about it, really. See it once and that's all you need. -Return To Middle-Earth: WB Special: This is my favorite of the two documentaries included with this DVD. Lots of flash, nice budget, great behind the scenes stuff. It's also a kick for me personally as I recognize locations, sets, hallways, crew members, etc. If you remember Super 2nd AD Skot from my first two ROTK set reports, you can see him in this doc... he's the AD leading Sean Astin out of the water when he steps on that piece of glass from the end of FELLOWSHIP. And it's all narrated by TV's Lex Luthor, so... there you go. -"THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT" A Short Film Directed By Sean Astin: I've loved this film from the first time I downloaded it off of Sundance's website. It's not flashy or atmospheric. Instead, it's sweet and gives you happy feelings inside. It just makes me smile, I guess. Now when I watch it, I just get homesick for Wellington. That gray weather, those beautiful green hills with houses spattered all over them. Tip Top ice cream (I've been longing for Magnums since I left... Those in NZ and probably UK will know what I'm talking about... all the rest of you are probably thinking I've got a hankering for huge condoms... which I'm not denying... but it's up to you to decide which I meant. Ice cream? Or Condoms? hmmm) -The Making Of "THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT": Ah, the making of. I first saw this at the Elijah Wood and Andy Serkis's wrap party. They played it on a big, white screen in "A Stage" with all the crew and a few of the cast hanging around. They were very right to play this at Andy's wrap party as he steals the show in this behind the scenes doc. We see an amazing insight to him as a person, how he rises to power on this shoot only to have the power make him realize he liked himself better when he was at the bottom of the ladder. It's heartbreaking, really. At the wrap party I found he had come to terms with himself, was comfortable with himself to the point where he was starting venturing into other creative avenues. I don't really follow hip-hop that closely... I wouldn't call myself any expert on the art of rapping, but I think this kid could go places. -lordoftherings.net Featurettes: These are entertaining, with great little interviews with the cast. They were originally released on the LOTR official website, so I'm sure most of you have seen them already. It's good to have them documented forever on DVD, though. My personal favorite is the first one. It's focused on the bad guys, so we get lots of Christopher Lee interviews. Cool. -Theatrical Trailers: Nothing much to point out... The teaser and regular trailers are included. -TV Spots: A whopping 16 TV spots are included in this section. As is the problem with watching a lot of TV spots in a row, they start getting repetitive. My favorites are DARKNESS, RETURN, COUNTDOWN, ONE WORD REVIEW AND GOLLUM. -Emiliana Torrini "Gollum's Song" Music Video: I've always loved this song, love it 10 times more than MAY IT BE, which I hold to be a great song. Gollum's Song gave me chills when I first heard it and it still sends goosebumps up my arms when I hear it today. It's a crime the song wasn't nominated and a flat out disaster that Howard Shore got gypped out of his nomination. Oh well... We have this music video that's not all that impressive. It's Emiliana Torrini singing inter-cut with various Gollum scenes from the film. Still fun to watch, though, just not life-changingly cool. -Special Extended DVD Edition Preview: Now it starts. THE TWO TOWERS: EXTENDED EDITION preview... It begins with Christopher Lee looking over one of his books. "So, Gandalf Greyhame thinks he's found Isildur's heir. The lost king of Gondor..." then goes right to Gandalf and Aragorn standing (I believe) on the edge of Fangorn at night. Gandalf: "Sauron fears you, Aragorn. Fears what you may become. So he will strike hard and fast at the world of men..." These clips were in early trailers and THE TWO TOWERS video game, but now you get a peak at them in full. We see many dead Rohan soldiers... This is the finding of King Theoden's son. We see bits of Sam and Frodo using Sam's elvish rope to scale down a cliff... Frodo slips (but why? Could it be he's trying to catch something? Why, how would I know that? It's just a guess...) and Sam yells, "Mr. Frodo!!!" Now this is my favorite piece of the Extended Edition footage... This was one of my favorite little details in the book. The next piece of footage we see is Merry and Pippin on Treebeard at the outskirts of Isengard. They hear something and turn to see a few thousand trees (not Ents, regular trees) in a mass exodus. One of the hobbits asks, "Where are they going?" Treebeard responds with, "They have business with the orcs." Those of you out there that have read the books know the impact the trees have in the overall story. Then there's clips of scenes mostly involving Faramir... The flashback to him and Boromir in Osgiliath, the finding of Boromir's horn cloven in two, etc. Then begins the interview stuff. It's Peter Jackson and (producer) Barrie Osborne essentially explaining why they made an Extended Edition in the first place. Now, I don't mean this in any negative sort of way, but is it just me or does Barrie Osborne look like a Koala bear? He's got that squishy nose, high cheeks and eyes placed very centered on his face... Once again, I don't mean this in any sort of negative way. He's a handsome guy and a great producer... All you have to see to know that is the difference in quality of MATRIX and MATRIX RELOADED. I just can't help but think about Koalas when I see Barrie. Might just be me... Next up is Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan talking about the Ent Draft sequence, then some footage of it. Merry: "You're taller!" Pippin: "I've always been taller than you!" Merry: "You did somethin'!" Then Billy does his classic little guilty smile/smirk. Then you have Elijah Wood and Sean Bean talking about the addition of the flashback sequence between Boromir and Faramir... some footage of them mingling with the soldiers of Osgiliath, then the biggie. The introduction of Denethor. Boromir says, "He loves you, father!" Denethor shoots back, "Do not trouble me with Faramir. I know his uses and they are few." John Noble looks absolutely amazing and has the note perfect amount of venom and hate behind his eyes. Mark my words, this'll be the character from ROTK that stays with you. Next up is a bit with Howard Shore, who I got to meet on my first expedition down to New Zealand back in April. He filmed his cameo for ROTK as a rider of Rohan and was putting the finishing touches on the TWO TOWERS: EE score. Ah... the special effects part of the preview. This minute or so has the Oscar winning effects mastermind Jim Rygiel talking about the addition of effects scenes into the EE. During the pickups, Rygiel was always walking about, cringing every time a bit of blue or green screen worked its way into a shot... At the time I was there, he had a bundle to do. TWO TOWERS: EE shots, RETURN OF THE KING shots, Gollum's MTV acceptance speech, etc. Jim Rygiel and Dean Wright were the pair, always running around, trying to figure out the approach to completing these new shots in time for December. Great bunch of guys, though. Always took time aside to come and chat with Kraken, Mrs. Kraken and myself. Anyway, Jim says that there are around 200 new effects shots going into TTT:EE. There's some footage of Faramir in Osgiliath holding Gollum against a wall by the neck, then throwing him to the ground. There are some shots of Treebeard. Nothing specific. I believe they are shots of Treebeard putting Merry and Pippin to sleep with his llllllooooooooonnnnnnnngggggggg stories. But I really can't tell because it's not like I've seen the EE or anything.... The last bit of interview stuff has to do with the Appendices section of TTT:EE. PJ says the docs are very much like the second chapter of a trilogy. Elijah comes on to say that the appendices are very much linked to the appendices from FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING: EE... That it's all one long story. Then there's some documentary footage and behind the scenes type stuff... The 5 minute TTT:EE preview ends with a collage of footage, which I'll leave a surprise. There is one quote from that footage that aptly describes us LOTR fanatics, though, so I'll quote it here... I'm sure you can guess who says it... "Once it takes hold of us, it never lets go..." -Behind The Scenes Preview of "THE RETURN OF THE KING": OK. Now for the big one. This preview of RETURN OF THE KING is over 10 minutes long, but of that 10 minutes, I'd say that maybe 2 minutes of it is footage. The rest is interviews and behind the scenes type stuff. Still exciting, but be prepared for that. -BEGINNING/SHELOB'S LAIR- The preview begins gliding through a hallway to the editing room where Pete and Jamie Selkirk are editing ROTK. The scene on the monitor is Frodo running through Shelob's tunnel, Sting in one hand and Galadriel's light in the other. PJ does his intro to the footage, saying it's basically a snapshot at where they are currently in the post production of the film. As he's talking, we get little snippets of from Shelob's Lair with Frodo looking about madly. There's a close up shot of the head of an upside-down shriveled orc covered in webbing. Now, I walked on this set, investigated the piles of bones and stared in awe at this Orc hanging by thick webbing from the ceiling of the lair. It is really damn creepy and the shriveled Orcsie is something to behold. Really, really nifty. The next bit of footage is Frodo on the ground, holding the light up. The camera is behind him and he slowly turns his head around to see... something he doesn't like, evidently, for he scrambles to his feet. There's quite a bit of little scenes now... most of it is small fighting stuff with the Orcs in Osgiliath. They fire a volley of arrows. We then see a completely different scene of Eomer in full armor charging the camera on horseback. -GANDALF AND ARAGORN IN MINIS TIRITH- Next is Gandalf in Edoras speaking with Aragorn and a few others. "Understand, things are now in motion that cannot be undone..." Clips of Minis Tirith streets, Aragorn in the Minis Tirith Throne Room, with its shiny black rock and polished white marble... This was an absolutely gorgeous set. I first saw this set on Ian McKellen's first day of pickups. He had a scene with Aragorn and Gimli (kicked back and smoking a pipe in Denethor's black chair) where they're discussing how to give Frodo a chance... He suggests they march on the Black Gate. They know it's death, but it's a distraction he's sure Frodo needs. "Ten thousand Orcs lie between Frodo and the Mountain of Doom!" What got me about this set most of all was the (seemingly) stone statues of past kings. You can see them in the brief glimpses of ROTK footage on the Two Towers DVD. These guys were intricately detailed and looked heavy as a house... But then the scene would turn around and instead of having a complete set rebuilt for the pickups, they just had one wall... So, when they needed the reverse angle for the scene filming, they'd just trade out the statues along the wall for the ones that would be along the other wall. It was so very odd to see one of the crew members just grab these huge sculptures and walk around with them. They must have been made out of Styrofoam or something similar... What a great trick, though. Anyway, back to the ROTK footage... Gandalf continues, "If the ring is destroyed Sauron will fall, but if Sauron regains the ring his victory will be so complete that none can see the end of it while this world lasts." Lots of little clips... Close ups of Arwen, Aragorn and Co. running through the Paths of the Dead and finally a medium shot of Aragorn saying "He has gone unchallenged long enough." Then the title: LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RETURN OF THE KING. -PATHS OF THE DEAD- Thus begins the interviews segment. Much like the Extended Edition preview, the interviews are inter-cut with bits of footage and behind the scenes. At the beginning we have Pete, Viggo Mortensen and the lovely Philippa Boyens (who, by the way, is a talented dancer)... as they're talking we see behind the scenes footage of Aragorn in the Paths of the Dead, Anduril in one hand and a flaming torch in the other. Wait until you guys see the reforged Narsil... It's not very featured in this preview, but close up it's frickin' gorgeous. Absolutely the sword of a king. Pete begins to talk about the haunted mountain Aragorn must enter in the film and we get a few seconds of footage of Legolas and Aragorn gazing into the black square entrance, which is bordered by jagged stones with skulls embedded in them. They understandably don't seem too keen on entering, but Aragorn leads the way. -DENETHOR- Next up is some discussions about Minis Tirith and the Steward's role in the monarchy. Of course that means the introduction of Denethor. Once again his vicious words are delivered perfectly by John Noble. "Word has reached my ears of this Aragorn, son of Arathorn, and I tell you now that I will not bow to this ranger from the north!" -PIPPIN AND MINIS TIRITH- We next see quite literally tens of thousands of Orcs emptying out of Mordor at dusk. PJ comes back to tell us that Sauron has come to believe that Pippin is the ringbearer, which puts the little hobbit in mortal danger. Next bit of footage is Merry and Pippin. Merry says, "Don't you understand? The enemy thinks you have the ring! He's coming for you!" We come to find out that Gandalf takes Pippin to Minis Tirith, where he believe the hobbit to be the most safe. There's a lot talk about building Minis Tirith, both the set (which was constructed in the same location as Helm's Deep, and the Bigature. Now, I've seen this thing with my own eyes. It is an amazing piece of art. It was something special to tour the Bigatures stage. To see Osgiliath in ruins, Barad-Dur and Orthanc in all their dark glory... It was actually very bittersweet, because I was told that all these beautiful pieces of art that any self respecting geek would love to see in a museum somewhere in the world were going to be put into storage. The Tolkien estate, apparently, has some sort of clause prohibiting the inclusion of any of these props to a museum. I don't see the logic of any of that myself. I think it'd be a major selling point for New Zealand tourism if they had the one and only official LOTR museum with Bilbo's stone trolls and the massive Corsair ship and real sets constructed for the film. I felt giddy joy when I was lead through WETA and the Bigatures area and I am deeply saddened that you folks out there won't get your chance... I suppose there's always the traveling LOTR exhibition, which I saw in it's final couple of weeks at Te Papa in Wellington... It's a good show, but it's only a quarter of the coolest stuff out there. The rest of it will just be sitting gathering dust and decomposing. -PELLENNOR FIELDS- Next up is discussion of Pellennor Fields... And yes, straight from the talented Alan Lee's mouth it is confirmed that the battle will have 200,000+ enemy forces. You don't just have words telling you about the massive enemy army, we get a glimpse at the pre-viz animatics where we see the orcs broken down into blocks of 200, 1,000, 5,000, 10,000. Seeing these early animatics really gives you the first inkling of the scope of this battle. Alan Lee says he's sure it'll be the most amazing battle scene ever filmed. I can not wait. -MERRY, THE WARRIOR AND MO-CAP HORSES- Dom Monaghan then comes on to talk about Merry becoming a warrior. We get a little look at Merry in his Rohan armor. Next they talk about the Riders of Rohan and their part in the final film. Two Hundred and Fifty horses were brought in for a charge... They show the behind the scenes of that (with Richard Taylor being his usual loveable goofy self) and begin to talk about they've adapted the Motion Capture technology they used to create Gollum for horses. It makes it easier to stage more dangerous and bigger battles to do it this way. -LEGOLAS AND THE MUMAKIL- Then there's an animatic of an Mumakil walking over Legolas and a few others on horseback, barely avoiding getting crushed underfoot. This is the beginning of the very first things I saw filmed back in April with Orlando Bloom. It was described at the time as the Legolas horse jump from THE TWO TOWERS times 100. It's going to be fuckin' cool... More detail forthcoming whenever I can send in my ROTK reports. -FRODO- PJ then comes back to say that even though there's all this fantastic battle stuff, the real power of ROTK lies in the more intimate and emotional part of the film. This segment has Phillipa, Sean and Elijah talking about the relationship of Sam and Frodo. Elijah: "Essentially you see the complete deterioration of Frodo to the point where Frodo ceases to be Frodo anymore." -"HIS WILL WAS SET AND ONLY DEATH WOULD BREAK IT" & CONCLUSION- Phillipa then comes in with a quote from Tolkien about Sam. "His will was set and only death would break it." Great line and there's some great stills of Sam from ROTK. It's about this point that the last bit of solid footage comes into play. It's about a minute long and has little bits from all over the third movie. From Gandalf in Minis Tirith to the ring, wet and surrounded by RIVER DIRT in someone's hand, (Whose hand could it be? hehe) to Gandalf talking to Pippin to the spine-tingling final shot... It's the mother of all the ROTK shots on the DVD... Since I've been so descriptive so far, I figure I'll let you guys discover this on your own. The footage in the part of the preview really needs to be seen first, not told. -SHELOB'S LAIR/AFTERWARD- The preview ends back in the editing room where PJ is watching another bit of Frodo in Shelob's Tunnel... The bit of footage we see is Frodo caught in a web (soon it will be... ea... nevermind. You didn't hear that.) arms up, Sting still in hand, struggling. -EA "THE RETURN OF THE KING" PREVIEW: The last thing on the disc is a preview of EA's RETURN OF THE KING game, which looks even cooler than their TWO TOWERS game, which I loved. I can't wait for it. That's it from me, squirts. My yahoo email is still filling up every hour thanks to that Sobig virus, so if you need to reach me, click on my temporary contact email below. Email me if you have any questions regarding this article... or maybe questions regarding other articles that you may not have read. I bid you all a fond farewell and adieu! -Quint
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Best battle ever to be put on film...Yeah, NO...That is just the musing of a person working on the film...200,000 orcs cannot compare to the realism of Saving Private Ryan and those first scenes...
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Nice review and all. I've had the DVD since Wednesday and you described it very well. But I swear, not a paragraph went by in which you didn't say "I saw this" or "I was there."
We get the point. -
It's perfect...great. Y'know, even with things I truly, dearly love, I can see weakness. It's funny how LOTR can make contributors to this site forget that being a critic involves criticism. Yeah, it's a great movie. Not nearly the magical experience of FELLOWSHIP, but very entertaining. Most other reviews have pointed out that the extras feel a bit skimpy, but they probably didn't get to go to the set. Of course, we know what happens if you're honest about a film...Werewolves and Vampires, anyone? Anyway...nice, safe, milktoast review Quint.
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First, the on-topic post: I'll rent this for "The Long & The Short of It," but I'm saving my purchasing dough for the extended edition. Second, the real reason for the post: I'm starting an AICN league over at Hollywood Stock Exchange. Click on my username and let me know if you want to sign up. Cheers.
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When you watch the RETURN OF THE KING preview be sure to have a spare pair of pants ready.
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...and very popular they are too, outstripping Hagendaas & Ben & Jerrys as the no.1 choice for ice-cream product.
But DON'T get the double caramel one for God's sake. It's enough to make a camel choke! -
We reviewed the disc on Friday, but as it was a race to get it online as fast as possible, it isn't one of our best reviews. Not bad, but we have done a hell of a lot better.
Still, it is at http://www.r2-dvd.org/article.jsp?sectionId=4&articleId=5829
Be kind... -
I getto view it in a theatre one last time, also picking up shitloads of DVD's tonght at 12:00
Simpsons season 3 and animal House
THEY TOOK THE BAR!
THE WHOLE FUCKING BAR!!!!" -
Are you people idiots? I'm calculating easily three hours of extras on this set! Whining friggin' crybabies!
They're not making anybody buy both sets, but giving an option if you want to. considering you can find this one for $15 at Circuit City (and probably the same price elsewhere) there's NOTHING to complain about! -
Aug 25, 2003 9:40:02 AM CDT
don't forget to buy the new Mr. Show Season 3 DVD tonight too!
by microwavable?
shameless plug for two guys that make me laugh
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White Magnums rule. LOTR sucks. A lot. Star Wars rules.
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Do you get all the extras that are on the 2-Disc edition on the 4-Disc edition of Fellowship, or are the 2-disc extras exclusive to that set?
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Aug 25, 2003 9:51:29 AM CDT
So we're saying the extras on this edition WILL be on the Extend
by led gopher
I may pick this copy up, for my little brothers and then get the Extended edition for myself.
But am I correct in assuming both versions will have the same extras, and the Extended one will have more? -
Assuming its the same as Fellowship then non of the extras thats on the 2disc DVD are on the four disc extended edition - the four disc has it own set of extras (that were fantastic on the FOTR disc)
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His old man is whack!
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Yes, skimpy...I, for one, do not think that documentaries we've already seen and a short film that has only a cursory relationship to the film are that hot for extras. I know, I know the extended edition will have the stuff I want. Of course, that brings us back to the idea that they _should_ have charged $5-$10 more for the "extended edition" and included both cuts. Plus, we're talking about a film (Two Towers) that would've been better if it was a half hour shorter, IMHO. Why do I want a version that has _another_ half hour of padding? BEAR IN MIND FLAMERS: I really, really like this film, but I think it's vastly weaker than FELLOWSHIP.
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Now I know some people are saying
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Aug 25, 2003 10:53:31 AM CDT
Dave and Led - No - All extras are exclusive to this set only...
by damitol
This is the "Soccer Mom" edition with the extras you normally see on any given 2-disk set. The one is November is the film enthusist version - completely different with not even a trailer on it. The 2-disk is more of an archive of all the promotional things that we've seen before whereas like last year's Fellowship EE, everything on November's TT:EE was producted specifically for the 4-DVD set. I'll own both becuase I love the films and I've thrown away US$15 on a whole lot less. You can't even put 2/3 a tank of gas in your car for $15 any more. I'll get my $15 out of it just watching the movie a few times between now and November.
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Friday! My supermarket started to sell it at 10am Friday morning. Other shops started on saturday. Is someone gonna be in trouble for this?
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Happened to go shopping yesterday (saturday) & to my surprise all stores that sold DVDs had The Two Towers for sale *then*, was somewhat amusing given all the windows with the "available August 26th". Guess you'll just have to wait over in the USA ehh :)
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Unlike the Fellowship of the Ring I don't think they "fixed" some of the FX shots in the Two Towers (Least I've not watched it enough if they have). Most noticeably when being lead into Osgiliath, you can still see Gondor soldiers "firing" invisible arrows. Damnit.
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...if you watch it back to back with the theatrical FOTR DVD. I've had this T2T DVD for about 10 days now (heh heh), and I can tell you that the differences between the two movies are much less than many realize, or realized last winter I should say. Which is brought into sharp relief when you plunk a bunch of folx down on the couch for the 6-hour experience (followed by the ROTK preview--humina humina humina). You get the very REAL sensation of watching 2/3 of one movie, not just marketer's talk to that effect. It ain't a Trilogy--it's a Triptych! Might not be worth the purchase to you, I dunno, but some time in the next 3 months give em both a rental. I think you'll dig it. ** Man am I jonesing for that full-on marathon experience this winter... May even hold off on buying the T2T SEV until AFTER I see it on the big screen. That's just a month, right? I can wait a month, right? Okay, so nobody in or near my city is allowed to buy tix to the Dec. 16th marathon/premiere until I've secured mine, and maybe my friends'. Then go for it. Which city's that? Not sayin. So ALL of you will just have to hold off until I give the go-ahead. Got me? Good. Much appreciated. ;)
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Commentaries? Why do I want to listen to someone talking over the movie I'm trying to watch?****Deleted scenes? There's a reason they were deleted -- they sucked.****Behind-the-scenes featurettes? YAWN. If you've seen one you've seen 'em all.****Give me the movie and maybe a trailer, and that's all I need.
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http://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/wolfemountains.html
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At 15 bucks, it still has way more than most movies do, if that's not enough just wait for the extended version. Awesome movie, with the first one I was able to wait for the EE, this time I'll probably rent the theatrical version first.
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How about having someone who DIDN'T visit the set review this dvd if you please? All us mere normal people who don't get free press trips and tours won't have the same reaction to stuff as you lot. We won't be transported into orgasmic dumbness by the fact that we were there on that day. Since everyone believes this is actually a professional website how about you begin to act like it? Would that be too dificult? To just write an objective review without all the personal anecdotes? Did you ask the dvd to tell you a dirty joke too?
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As I did with FOTR, I'll rent the theatrical cut dvd and buy the extended cut dvd this november. The only dvds I plan on buying this tuesday belong to MGM's MIDNITE MADNESS series. That's right, people---TOMB OF LIGEIA and THE HAUNTED PALACE hit the shelves on the 26th. Fright classics with the late Master of Terror. Vincent, you were the best!
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Have you noticed that the various video rental palaces seem to not buy enough copies to make sure that they are actually able to prove 'guaranteed in stock'. Well, nonetheless, I will be renting the theatrical release and buy the extended as well. As for those whining about the dearth of extras, you know, you actually have to put the second DVD in the tray to get all of them.
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When Lucas puts out multiple versions of Star Wars, your childhood has been raped so Lucas can steel more of your cash, but when Jackson does the same thing, and I quote: "One thing that I like about the various special editions that have been coming out for LOTR is that the special features aren't repeated." What the fuck? You like it, then, that Jackson makes you buy the same movie twice so you can get a few special features? God forbid he put it all on one version so you can make a choice. I really love Star Wars and LOTR, but can we have some consistency here? Requiring the fan to purchase the same movie twice is either greed or a big favor to the fans. Make up your minds.
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Aug 25, 2003 2:24:23 PM CDT
We've got our DVDs early here in the UK and we've got Magnums!
by fitzcarraldo
Actually Magnums are marketed at depressed, sex-starved women come to think of it. I prefer the Feast myself. Do they still make the toffee ones? So how come TTT went on sale early? I was too weak to resist buying a copy on Saturday and my copy from Play.com will arrive tomorrow, to be sent straight back. And Americans pay $15 for it? Fucking hell, I paid seventeen quid ($27)!
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It's never frickin' cool when people mistake blatant effects shots for compelling moviemaking. I had a bigger problem with the much-maligned "Shield Surfing" scene, which wasn't really that big of a deal in the first place.
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"Fucking hell, I paid seventeen quid"
Bloody hell! All that cash and it still hasn't arrived yet?!?
We got it on friday from our local branch of Woolies also for -
That's just the kind of bellyaching I was talking about. Documentaries we've already seen? How about "documentaries we get to have in spiffy digital format"? I enjoyed that WB special and am damned glad i can replace my crappy taped-off-the-air copy of it.
I, too, was not entirely taken with Two Towers --- in large part because it didn't feel as much like a movie in itself as the first episode did, but just the middle bit -- but it's still a fine flick that i look forward to adding to my collection.
As for the "$5 to 10 more" comment... baloney. They need to have a cheaper version of the movie out there in stores for the luddites out there who don't care about extras and simply want the movie at a cheap price. Adding two more discs to the four-disc set would probably bump it from the $30-40 range it will be available at to the $50-60 range. You would want that to be the only version available??? -
I totally fucked up my last post. What I meant to say was "I had a bigger problem with THAT THAN the much-maligned shield-surfing scene." Anyway, the horse jumping was to display something that had already been established about a dozen times earlier, cannot be accomplished with anyone who has bones, and is basically just a big, fat "look at this." If he was jumping the horse in the background, maybe I would have thought it was cool, like the vampires disentigrating in the background of 'Blade 2''s "House of Pain" sequence (and no, I don't think that the Blade movies are comparable to the LotR movies; down boys). As it is, I don't. And before anyone even bothers stating it, I know my opinion isn't worth all that much in the grand scheme of things. However, I still didn't like it. I'd actually go so far to say that I dislike it, because it really didn't need to be there and didn't enrich anything except for the working knowledge that Legolas likes looking at the bellies of horses.
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If you don't like the extras, nobody's making you watch them. But for those who DO like them, it's good they're there! Commentaries: you can get insights into the movies and the actors and creators; Deleted Scenes: often deleted for time contraints, not because the scenes were bad; behind the scenes featurettes: some are bad, some are good, some are better than the damned movies. I won't even buy a movie if there's just the trailer and no other extras, unless it's under $10. Why take a great medium like DVD and do nothing with it? Do you ever read magazine articles going behind the scenes of a movie? Or pick up a book about the making of a movie? Or watch a special about it? I know there are people who think "the movie should stand for itself" and yes, that's what rental is for. But if I'm going to shell out the money to add it to my collection, I want the option of going more indepth than just watching the movie itself.
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I've got nothing against extras. I just agree with the person above who said there should be the option of a bare-bones version for people who don't feel like shelling out $35 for a "Special Edition" with all the bells and whistles, when a $15-20 version with the movie would suffice.****Honestly, I never watch the extras on any of my DVD's more than once. I'll give the deleted scenes a quick once-over, and maybe listen to the commentary for a while, but that's about it. Extras make you feel like you're getting your money's worth, but how many people really watch all of the hours and hours of extra stuff they put on these Special Editions?
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Actually, I was one of the ones who made the "there should be a bare bones" (or, at least, barer than the big boxed set) comments above. Heck, it sounds like the $15 version we're getting tomorrow will suffice for you. Nothing wrong with that. But for those of us who do want more, it's good that they're giving the option to have some extras. If tomorrow's release had been a movie-only edition, it would still not have been any cheaper! I don't watch all the extras on all my DVDs, but I like having that option if i feel like it. Plus: how different is going more indepth with a movie in commentaries and behind the scenes material any different from reading that essay on Tolkien you posted the link to above? Couldn't some purist say "you shouldn't bother reading essays about X, you should read X and interpret for yourself"?
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Please: a set-visit validates a DVD review? This isn't a "perspective" - it's a distortion and a discolouration. Luckily we all got our DVDs four days early anyway, and already know how class it is. But I *am* so very tired of this site's complete absence of objectivity, not to mention having to pick through friggin' autobiographies.
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I know you know what I'm talking about....damn virus.
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Get a fucking life.
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...dude, I think Ribbons was just making a joke because your posting subject line is exactly one of the SoBig formats that've been plaguing everybody.
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I apologize to Ribbons, then. I thought he was being serious.
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For what it's worth, I didn't it when Legolas mounted his horse, either. At the theatres I saw it at, the effect looked poorly animated. Legolas' elf-ness has been well-demontrated - his excellent vision, walking on snow, walking the tightrope, etc. Also, the act itself is questionable. Elves might have been courageous, mystical, and mysterious, but they weren't acrobats. Legolas (a wood elf more used to climbing trees than climbing into the saddle) might have been able to calm a crazed horse, but not necessarily to mount one moving at a full gallop. My main gripe, though, is that they used a pooly-animated effect to demonstrate something the we knew already.
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To the guy who said that deleted scenes are removed "for a reason" and that watching them is pointless: it's not always true that these were "good" reasons. Sometimes scenes are deleted to preserve the "flow of the story" (which makes watching them still interesting) or just to please some exec, or whatever. For instance, watch any of the recent Ridley Scott movies (e.g., Gladiator, Hannibal) and you'll find that they greatly increase your understanding of the story and the character's motivations.
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I guess if you have to explain a joke it's not funny, but for the record, I WAS just referencing those SoBig e-mails most of us have been receiving over the last week or so. Nothing personal.
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There's a tiny little DVD store that recently opened a few blocks from me (in Queens, NYC). They have less shelves than a vagina has teeth, so I'm hoping that they put it out early...and that it's cheap.
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he could write a 200 page novel describing an episode of star trek
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Aug 25, 2003 5:15:10 PM CDT
How can you fucking compare PJ and Lucas? Lucas constantly lies
by minderbinder
"You like it, then, that Jackson makes you buy the same movie twice so you can get a few special features?" What do you mean "JACKSON MAKES YOU" buy it? Don't be an ass, nobody's making you do anything. 99% of people will pick the version they want and only buy one. "Requiring the fan to purchase the same movie twice " Yep, that would be greed...but nobody is REQUIRING that you buy anything, get a fucking clue.
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Best place to buy retail mind you. I usually trust the USPS with my DVD's but not any of the LOTR DVD's. So far the lowest price I have seen anywhere is Circuit City, $14.99. Normally Best Buy has the lowest price, but Circuit City one-upped them this time. Anyone know of a better place?
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As anyone who has been following this epic at all understands, the scenes deleted from FOTR and TTT were not deleted for lack of quality, but because they were forced to come in at under three hours for theatrical distribution. The deleted scenes were always intended to be available for the extended versions. Some of us are hoping that the "under three hours" rule will be dispensed with for ROTK, and there have been rumors that it might have an additional half hour - in which case, the extended version will probably be four. Since - certainly in FOTR and most likely in TTT - the added scenes are up there with the best of them (some of my favorite moments in FOTR are now from the extended edition), I have no complaints with this method overall, even if I consider it near sacrilege that the Lorien gift-giving had to wait for the extended edition. It still makes me unhappy that modern rules of theatrical distribution do not allow us to luxuriate in epic-length films on the big screen, as was once common. ***And for what it's worth, I, too, have never liked the scene of Legolas mounting the horse, because the angle isn't remotely convincing, even if you allow him to be weightless. The arm movement is all wrong, and very distracting. It's something I wish they could fix for the SEV. ***And I also agree that Faramir discovering Boromir's body should have been given preference over too many shots of cringing Rohan refugees. ***What I'm wondering if there's anything in the theatrical TTT that I will still prefer to the SEV when it comes out, the way I prefer the original opening with Frodo under the tree (and no idiot hobbits or Bilbo freak-out), and the Council without the Black Speech.
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...I, personally, would like to wait until the extended edition comes out to make my purchase of The Two Towers. I would also, however, like to own Sean Astin's documentary, "The Long and Short of It." Unfortunately, the documentary will only be offered on the regular version of the DVD, so if I want to own both the extended edition of the film as well as the documentary, then I am forced to purchase both films. Maybe you think 'forced' is too strong a word, and maybe it is, but I'd really like to own both without having to purchase both DVDs. What is fair about that?
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...no, you're an ass.
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Nobody is REQUIRING that you buy the Super-Ultimate-Deluxe Edtion of 'T2,' either.
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this movie sucked piss, and you all know it.
now, grow up, and get outside the house.
the LOTR films are overrated, and childish, and being a blithering jackass, i will wind up owning every single incarnation of all 3 films, for you see, i am a fool.
but, the fact is, this film sucked, REALLY BAD. -
for god's sake people, to just see a documentary, just rent it with your friend!! Pay a dollar each to see if you really need to actually own this thing!
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Here's the link to a photo of the new Barbie and Ken dolls, dressed as Arwen and Aragorn: http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/7971
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Aug 25, 2003 9:33:06 PM CDT
Fellowship EE and Two Towers EE coming to theaters in december
by agrajag
I'm not sure if this has been covered yet
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Aug 25, 2003 10:11:23 PM CDT
"Lucas never lies you little bitter fanboy" Bullshit. I guess
by minderbinder
And many people bought the VHS since they thought it would be the only version available for years. Then once the masses have bought it, he releases the DVD with bonus materials (the version people wanted in the first place). Not to mention the scumbag move of only releasing the widescreen version in an overpriced "collector's" vhs set padded out with junk. Come on, I'd like to see you try and defend either of those money grabs. Lucas isn't fit to sweep PJ's floor. **(PS, Astin's movie has been available as a free download for months)
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...or is Phillipa Boyens an enchantly charming and beautiful woman? With each interview of her I see I fall that little bit more in love with her.
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...you're a sort of a loser, man. I mean that matter of factly. Who else could spend so much time @ AICN and claim to be anything else. Man, I'm gone for weeks on end and will probably not take another gander @ AICN until a few weeks more, but you're always here like stuck on flypaper. Can't believe anyone BUT 1. a teenage kid 2. the unemployed or 3. a anti-social degenerate has that much time on their hands to waste. Sorry, but it's the self-evident truth. AICN is like your habitat now, your freedom from the outside, a cushy ready made womb you can run to when the crushing weight of the real world becomes too much. You said it yourself... I mean, my Dobermann has more self-respect. I'll take a look back in November when Extended Edition and ROTK news really starts churning. Don't be a "fool" all your life. It is up to you to change it. It is passing you by, son. Stick to your schoolwork, or get back to school or try to find a steady job. You do not want to spend the rest of your youth, what is supposed to be the best time of your life, being an AICN talkbacker as your only memory. Good luck.
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Aug 25, 2003 10:46:21 PM CDT
ANOTHER SWIPE AT MATRIX:RELOADED IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVIE
by darth phallus
P.S. Can't wait to see all the new cool extras in TT DVD!
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Having to pay extra money for the same material was bound to polarize people. While I think that it was a fair move and can't wait for the Extended Edition of 'Return of the King' to eventually come out so that all these people who don't read before they type will stop complaining about the same shit, I'd have hoped we'd moved passed the submissive Petey praise, as well. Uh.....yeah Minderbinder, Sean Astin's movie IS available as a free download. Do you think EVERYONE with a DVD player is bourgeois enough to also have in their home a computer equipped to download a short movie? After winnowing it down a bit more, how many do you think are able to watch it without freezes, picture problems, or jumps? While extras are exactly what they're addressed as, I wouldn't say that New Line and crew are sports because SOME of us that don't want to get the Theatrical Cut can download Sean's movie off the computer as well. However, it's important that there are a different set of extras on different DVDs. Whether or not you think the release of two Editions was money-grubbing depends on what you think the kiwi Crew's motivations were for releasing two in the first place. I personally think there's not much foul done, but whatever. Just please, for all of our sakes, read what's already been presented and think before you talk. Petey's not a God because Sean's short is up for download, and he's not a bastard because he lies. I take it not many talkbackers were history buffs in school, because their behavior is antithetical to the whole process of learning about the past. This is how wars start, people. Insecure posturing and power hungry, diminutive speakers who know how to use rhetoric. Well what'd you think I was gonna say?
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Aug 25, 2003 11:13:53 PM CDT
Yet another person who tries to cement their superiority complex
by ribbons
Oh, the injustices any humanists on AICN may have to sit through. If it's wrong for people to slip in an unrelated Reloaded diss a million times, it's just as off-topic and irritating to unabashedly laud Reloaded on an unrelated post a million times. Like I said, folks: history and posturing.
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"Deleted scenes? There's a reason they were deleted -- they sucked."
It really depends upon the movie. Donnie Dark had a whole little "Watership Down" subplot that never made it into the final movie, but was still pretty good (especially Donnie's debate with his teacher about treating rabbits' deaths like peoples' deaths). And there was a great little scene where Donnie and his Dad had a father-son chat that my wife wished she had gotten from her parents. PLus there were some extra features that explained a bit better what was going on in the movie. Not every movie benefits from extras, but this one really needed the extra stuff to tell the whole story the filmmaker was going for (although it is not such a good thing when the theatrical version of a film is so obviously incomplete).
As for TTT, the main reason that I am going for the Extended Edition (which will probably be only around $20 the week of its release like FOTR's EE was) is that for a movie as long as TTT was, you really can't squeeze the movie onto one disc without losing some picture quality from the lower bitrate (see the Digital Bits review on their website now). Just the better picture alone is worth another $5. My wife, however cautions me to wait and see if there is a 12+ disc set of the entire Lord of the Rings next Christmas with even MORE extras.
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and buy it for 10 bucks at a yard sale
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Aug 26, 2003 1:00:17 AM CDT
I don't know, I doubt there's gonna be a Super Duper Set with al
by ribbons
Right after work on the RotK DVDs are finished, the Kiwi Crew will be right in the middle of production on King Kong and will probably have no desire whatsoever to revisit Lord of the Rings and its universe. New Line may do the work itself and repackage it with some documentaries from TV, but the extras are pretty comprehensive as is. Who knows? You may get a discount.
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Give me a commentary, making of, and trailers and of course the friggin movie, and Im set.
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Aug 26, 2003 1:15:55 AM CDT
"he could write a 200 page novel describing an episode of star t
by dlhstar
I think Harlan Ellison has already done that... :)
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Good call Quint, Tip Top Ice Cream IS something to be desired! I just got back From New Zealand myself, and my girlfriend is absolutely addicted to Goody Goody Gumdrop Ice Cream, that and Mallow Puffs, and her total Fav, Toffee Pops. And yes, these things DO rule, its a travesty they aren't available here in the states. I just got my copy, quite excited, and NZ was cooler than in the summer, but absolutely stunning. I am totally bent on retiring there one day. Side note, anyone going, take the Fuller's Tours in the bay of islands, then up through Paihia and to Cape Reinga, overlooking the Pacific and Tasman Sea...utterly incredible. (This is the North Island, btw)
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So, I figured I'd wait until November and buy the Extended Edition of Two Towers, but I'm wandering through my local Woolworths on Saturday and there it is - so I bought it. Because I chose to. Did you read that? I bought it because I 'chose' to? The fact that a lot of people here whinge about the cash making machine, pulling money from the pockets of people with different versions of movies, is a bit lame. If there are people out there who want to buy multiple copies of the same film then let them. You don't have to - all you have to do is 'choose' not to. There's that 'choice' thing again. Now, I'm a sucker for good films - some I'll buy again if another version comes out, some I won't. I will be buying the extended Edition of Two Towers even though I've bought the theathrical release, like I did with FoTR, but I'm just impatient and couldn't wait to have a copy. People will buy the theatrical release and nothing else, and some will wait for the Extended Edition because - there's that word again - they 'choose' too. If the makers of the film are making their money preying on those dumb enough to buy multiple copies, then the real idiots are the people buying the stuff.
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If you say one thing and do something entirely different it isnt a lie? what an interesting concept.
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Is it cheaper than this elsewhere? It doesn't really matter to me, because I'm not buying it. The Simpsons Season 3 was $35.99; now that's money well spent.
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A washed out hack whose story telling abilities fadded away years ago and is reduced to gimmicks to get people to watch (Ohh Chewie is in E3) is not needed on Lord of the Rings talk back.
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am i the only one a little nervous that eowyn's role in rotk has not even been hinted at? is it supposed to be a secret? that's the scene i want to be perfect....
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I think 'they' are trying to preserve the suprise for those fans who haven't read the books. Which reminds me, I saw a spoiler pic of Dernhelm over the weekend on TORn, but can't find it now. Anyone know where it went. One of my great entertainments is teasing a coworker who hasn't read the book with Dernhelm references (not that I'd show him the pic).
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Fuck, hit too dam soon again.
What I meant to say is, that I will get this version for my brothers and the Extended one for me. A 10 year old and an 11 year old don't need a 4+ disc set to fight over. -
Not to worry welshwitch, when you see the RoTK preview you will see that the scene you (and, trust me on this, I want to see it also since it
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Aug 26, 2003 11:54:23 AM CDT
"He did not lie, and there is no way you can prove it." What do
by minderbinder
Let's see. He says that the DVD won't be released until 2005, then releases it in 2000. What he said wasn't true, that would be a lie. To claim that calling a lie a lie makes one "a daft ignorant ass" exposes you for the sycophant that you are. "Lucas probably figured they would die like Laserdiscs" Are you fucking kidding? Although that would explain a lot...
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Let's see, if the deluxe edition contained all the extras that were in the first edition, it would be six discs and likely cost $40. How is that somehow better than buying both versions for $15 plus $25? Just curious.
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i will endeavor to become the sort of person that you are. someone who, when they don't like a post that an annonymous talkbacker makes, they begin the hilarious tirade of claiming to have been "gone for months" off the talkbacks, only to reappear with delusions of self importance, based upon the fact that they perceive the LOTR films to be quality filmmaking.
perhaps i could twist your Doberman's head off, and stick it up your ass, and then ask you what you think?
how about that, moron?
oh, and for the record, TTT was pathetic.
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other than a naive perception of it all being so artful, why would anyone actually have enjoyed this childish, inept adaptation of an admittedly overrated book?
this film comes across as one of the safest moves a director could make, and yet everyone treats Hackson as though he reinvented the wheel.
attrocious movie.
i'll be picking up my copy tonight.
i'm such a fool.
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...as a teacher, I'm constantly setting deadlines and due dates, only to change them as the date nears because of all sorts of circumstances. This does not make me a liar. I think it was explained why Lucas switched from '05 to '00. Also, how exactly do you know how much more it would cost if the documentary were on the extend edition? I still don't like the idea of being made to choose between the Extended Edition and the documentary. Oh, and minderminder...no, you're as ass. Apricot Scissors.
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Aug 26, 2003 12:50:00 PM CDT
Nice...you must be a heck of a teacher, someone disagrees with y
by minderbinder
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Aug 26, 2003 12:51:24 PM CDT
So The EnigmaII is saying that the 20th Century "made" people wa
by mortsleam
Just like Jackson, Lucas, Ridley Scott and Sam Raimi are "making" people buy multiple versions of these movies? I take it then that 21st Century acting will be all about staring off blankly into the space two inches to the left of the other virtual thespian you're in the scene with, unenthusiastically mouthing horrendous dialog in a bored monotone because you shot the scene in front of a big blue screen and were given no motivation by your creatively bankrupt director.
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Minderbinder, if you'd have been paying attention, you'd realize that I was mocking the fact that you initially called me an ass. And the number one rule of teaching...never put a student down...even the real fuckwits.
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From Wrestlezone.com - "Word has it that Kevin Nash will be playing a "henchman" in The Punisher. We do not know how involved this role is, but that's what production sources are letting out at this time. Originally, he was rumored to be playing Tombstone. That's apparently not the case.
Additionally, IGN Filmforce has stated that a source said, in regards to Hogan being in the film, "he's been hit on the head too many times"; indicating he's not going to make a cameo - but I haven't personally got that confirmed.
I do know that filming is currently underway at various locations in Tampa, and I hope to get more information in the coming days."
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Aug 26, 2003 1:14:22 PM CDT
Ah, now I finally get it...let's hope you're not a writing teach
by minderbinder
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Thanks! I now have it in my hot little virtual hand, to gloat over, and (as usual) make reference to in the presence of my untutored coworker. Ah, the good life....
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i think i got a crappy copy, though. does anybody else have a problem seeing "the long and short of it?" whenever i click on that both my DVD players start churning and then freeze. haha, is it really that bad? anyway, i was going to hold off and just buy the extended edition. oops, i lasted until about 12:04 AM last night when i got in my car. 4 minutes. and when i got to the wal-mart there were about 130 people in the electronics section waiting for the mulleted worked to wheel out the huge display of DVDs. "It's past midnight! Bring them out already!" damn, i was the last to get a copy and i think the lady said they sold about 200 copies in 20 minutes. it was great fun, seeing all the other midnight shoppers who had positively NO CLUE why there were so many people crowded around the electronics. some old guy told his wife it was a gang and they scurried out of the store. haha.
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I rented TTT. Gonna wait to buy the extended box set with the Gollum statue. I like figurines... they're neato.
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Look a little closer. Notice that figure in the lead is Legolas. Heh, he
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I plan on buying the Extended version in November and I picked up the theatrical version this morning and I DO NOT feel cheated.
1. It's better than having to wait till November to see TTT on DVD.
2. It's 15 bucks. Not a lot of money. If 15 bucks was really going to break you, you can't afford being a fan-boy anyways.
3. I'll get my 15 bucks back just by watching it over and over until November and then give it to my family so they can have a version to own. No biggie.
4. It's kinda nice to have the shorter version for those friends who just don't want to sit through the extended version. Yes, they're lame for it but not everyone is as cool as us. (meant sincerely :) )
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i post on here, just to piss off little internet twerps like you.
you are such a sorry mess, because the idea that someone puts down your silly little hobbit movie is just devastating to you.
the internet is such a joke, with clowns like you posting constantly claiming superiority over anyone who disagrees with your opinions.
kid, enjoyment of a motion picture does NOT make you an interesting person, ok?
i felt TTT was a major flop creatively, for reasons that i have stated in previous posts, and if that bothers you to the point where you just can't handle it, then i have a suggestion. don't read my comments. ever.
but, thats what its all about, isnt it? i post, and you are drawn to it, time and time again. just like Morgoth, and so many other AICN lifers. that is where i come up with the statement that...get ready for it, kid "I OWN YOU!!!!!!!!!!"
now, get back to your internet porn, and your masturbatory fantasies involving your mother.
i know i enjoyed her.
kid, get over it.
your generation is such a pathetic mess of mysanthropic losers, its really NOT funny. -
Movies suck...
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There hasn't been an epic film since Montry Python and The Holy Grail (arguably there wasn't any before that either, yeah screw Spartacus I mean come on the cg in that movie looks so fake...). I hear a bunch of jackasses going on about how sweet the balrog is but nothing has been able to top that sweet rabbit. I mean LOTR would be kinda cool if it had a Ninja or Vampiritic Were-Monkey's that Throw Radioactive Shit or something in it but as it stands it just another film that rapes a peice of literature (though not nearly as bad as most... and for that I salute them) I see alot of people talking about how RoTK will be the best film ever. Bah. Maybe if they put Gollems nude scene back in or replace/condence more Key/Interesting characters with Arwen (played with terible brilliance by Liv Tyler), and maybe give the orcs Rocket Propelled Grenades. Now that would be movie.
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Thanks for a funny/cute story. A gang indeed! :~)
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I think Joe
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It could be huge!, Or not, maybe an independent flick? They could use real upcoming movies as the subject matter so the audience can be enraged as the TBs decimate (not to mention the Filmmakers!) their beloved actors, directors, and fav characters. Holy Cow, talk about the social statements it could make! ' Trolls' and others
phrases could become household names! They should ask us to participate! Select the most witty, and not so witty posters and ask us to do what we do best, of course would we be as genuine if we were getting paid? Other talkb ackers would call us candy assed sellouts! Our opinions would lose their validity (if they ever had any) ah, alas perhaps it's not such a good idea. Hollywood would probably make sure all the post had proper sentence structure so the "audience" could easily follow the nuetured and PC debates. Oh well.
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When the world won't give you a chance, you have to retreat into a virtual one. Watch the year's most mesemerizing movie as young Robison Davies, a white manchild who lives at home with his mom and carries his clothes around in a trashbag ("Moooom, I told you NOT to throw out my 'The Man, The Legend' shirt!"), has dreams of making it big in the talkback diss circles.
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$17.96 at some. Circuit City is $14.99 though, and you get the nifty LOTRADVENTURE.COM card, too. And by the way- WHY DO PEOPLE BUY THE FULL-SCREEN VERSION? YOU IDIOTS!
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DAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMIT I WANT TO SEE THIS NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Extended Edition Two Towers just won't cut it anymore, I need to see ROTK! IN IMAX!!!! NOWWW!!!! aie aiei aeie ieai e aieiaiei "The Matrix: Revolutions" is now like the dull mozarella stick appetizer of the feast of this winter! dammmmmmmn. i would probably give my left nut to see this now. well, no, maybe not - but definitely a lot of sperm.
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$13.88 here...I don't think you'll see that beat.
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Aug 27, 2003 2:58:27 AM CDT
Okay Ribbons, we have our star, but who would be his love intere
by meleractor
His left or right hand? Ah, decisions, decisions.
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Being a movie collecting fiend (my one true vice...well, ok, there's a few others but that's another story!) am I the only old fart around who remembers when there wasn't EVEN a home video market? And the only way we could relive something was stills in magazines like FAMOUS MONSTERS, etc...which was then followed by home video and the glorious days when a first run tape would cost you $100...which was then followed by a newer glorious age of laserdiscs where a first run disc would go for $40 (or $50 if you wanted to spring for the CAV edition that perhaps had a few extras on it)? Overall, looking about, it seems like you can pick up TT for under 20 bucks easily, on the average for about $14-16 depending on how much that one extra buck or 2 is gonna break you. $15 for a 3 hour movie in glorious digital quality with a total shitload of extras? Who the fuck is finding a problem with this??? Sheesh, now if only they'd price porn discs in this sort of mass sell-through range, life would really be great!
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Aug 27, 2003 3:49:29 AM CDT
Mindbender Lucas and Jackson, who does what with there money?
by lukecash
Well, there are two schools of thought on Lucas and his DVD. One is that he had NO intention of releasing the DVD before the final movie was made, and thus he could spend time finalizing things. The fact was that many fans were begging for Star Wars DVD, he decided to move up the schedual. He has no intention of releasing the original three until the last movie is released.________The other way was that DVD sales does bring more money into the Lucas coffers than the dissapearing VHS market. Lucas needs the revenue to pay for the Star Wars film...they ain't exactly cheap...and whatever money he makes goes right into his own buisness. Lucas could have retired after making it big with American Graffiti- but he's taken each Star Wars/Indiana Jones films money, and put it right back into his company. He's financed a few Kurosawa films, A Franis Ford Coppla film, and a a few other duds.___________And Outside of the "improved" Phantom Menance- Both VHS version and DVD of Attack of the Clones have been exactly the same. On the other hand Jackson is giving us two different movies and "extras" Why? Because people are willing to pay for it, I suppose. The moeny isn't going to him...it's going to Newline Cinimea. They can therefore spend some moeny to make another Dungeons and Dragons movie. Although I am sure WETA gets a cut of it as well.
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'nuff said.
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...you'll not be buying the DVD then. Nuff said indeed.
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Sixteen weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!!
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Aug 27, 2003 10:53:29 AM CDT
Grimloch, for 3 TBs now you've been dodging my question
by pallando blue
Are you really THE Charmand Grimloch -- as seen here: http://www.ping.be/black/liveempe.htm (you once implored us to google your name to prove you hadn't picked for a handle a Transformers cartoon character) -- or just a big fan of said death metal keyboardist? It really does make a big difference. Either way, what's the harm in answering?
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Aug 27, 2003 10:58:03 AM CDT
(Yipe, back on topic) ...AND finally the DVD-Rom extras are avai
by pallando blue
All I know is I didn't get an error screen last night, but it was too late to dig through stuff. May not be any actual, NEW material (and no ROTK stuff I could find). At least, though, it looks like there's more effort put to it than last year's FOTR vanilla set of screensavers and wallpaper. Anyone else go through the online exclusives yet?
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but I've had this on DVD for like 6 months now. Sure, none of the extras, but it's in 5.1 Dolby, widescreen, etc. I'll hold off until the extended version comes out. Oh yeah... extended Hobbit goodness. Hey, that sounds kinda gay...
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This trilogy rocks. (nitpicks and all)
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but if i were the real Charmand G. i would not reveal it here.
so Pallando, do you hate me for buying The Two Towers dvd (with the intentions of also owning the EE gift box) and at the same time continuing to moan and groan about the film?
why is it wrong for me to do this?
especially since half my posts are deliberate nonsense. did i "really" hate the film with such anger and fury that it makes my blood boil?
no. but it was a pretty horrid followup to what was perhaps the most entertaining spectacle picture in the last decade.
as a result of this, i have little hope left that this trilogy will be a lasting great (with me. although i have been known to change my mind, if not my underwear.) that ranks in with the Godfather, or SW (original, warts and all) trilogies.
as i see it, the best LOTR film was already released in 2001.
frankly, there are plenty of films that i feel are superior to FOTR, but it does rank as a favorite of mine. TTT, well...i think you know my feelings about that. -
by the way, its not death metal.
its the fine art of "Black Metal".
just wanted to be clear.
and, just to post on topic, TTT sucked.
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Aug 27, 2003 2:23:08 PM CDT
Grim, it's hard to take your comments that TTT sucked, was prett
by minderbinder
Give it up, you're wasting your breath.
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I've just been asking a genuine question. One whose answer might open you up to ridicule, sure, but why should you care what any of us complete strangers make of your music scene? Why *wouldn't* The Real CG step up? You're a performer, comfortable and apparently respected within your scene, and that link I posted was a rave I'm pretty sure. What the hell would Charmand Grimloch have to be embarrassed about. Whatever, so I guess you're just a fan. Anyway. Your posts are annoying, redundant, and dull to be sure, and I find the make-up and costuming of Black Metal (sorry--my bad on the mislabelling) campy, silly, and played out long since the 70s' KISS knock-offs like Angel. (Yes, I know that was more a Glam scene, not Black Metal. Still, make-up and capes are make-up and capes in my music-geek opinion, and today are only acceptable on a P-Funk All-Star.) But I hope I'm not disappointing you when I say you don't inspire hate, just amusement. You're a one-trick pony, projecting an odd need to be loathed that would be pathetic if it weren't so uninteresting. And some bemusement, at the 180-degree hatred you (or anyone) display toward T2T after loving FOTR. Read my post to MPJedi2 up there. When you get your T2T DVD, watch it directly after the theatrical FOTR. See if you still feel the same way about both movies. Either way, work on some new material, PLEASE. You're getting stale.
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Chalk it up to a long, shitty week at the workplace, and an even worse humpday. All apologies. So, to get things back on track. When watching the close-up of Merry's face as he's riding in front of Dernhelm into battle, is anyone else worried about the saddlehorn? Even if he's armored down there, there's GOT to be some uncomfortable pressure, or rhythmic thumping...
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As a movie, TTT was inferior to FotR and a bit of a let-down, at least to me. Grimloch shouldn't have to admit that tentatively. Every time such comments are made on these talkbacks, we're inundated with replies "It's one WHOLE story, moron! One CAN'T be better than the other!" Perhaps some of the Middleman Blues riddle the Two Towers. All the same, Fellowship was about as satisfying a self-contained experience and as promising a start to a LotR trilogy as one could ask for (besides for the Gladriel scene.....and don't bother explaining it to me, if you think it bears explanation, you're the ignorant one). The sequel (yes, the sequel) had its moments, especially Gollum and most of Helm's Deep as well as the direction of Peter Jackson, but it was a less enjoyable experience and while grander in scale and more polished in its epic form of storytelling inferior in terms of most cinematic qualities ("magic" excluded, you self-important assholes). Do I still like it? Yes. Do I still appreciate how much work went into it? You have no idea. But to freak out when someone says that they liked FotR better than TTT is ridiculous. Is it all "one big story?" Yes. Was it written as "one big script?" No; they wrote each one according to where the audience's frame of mind would be, and a movie should be able to stand on its own anyways, forgiving continuity issues, but certainly not things like pathos, as unimportant as that may be. Maybe that's why Grimloch's so spiteful towards you "Tail-Enders." By the way, just because he's buying the movie doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to critique it and you know it. Everybody has guilty pleasures; does that mean they have to adamantly defend the quality of them? Either way, I'm sure that the Extended Edition of the Two Towers will amend some of the problems I had with it in theaters, and I'm also willing to forgive it for being "part of one big story." However, when broken down, I liked the writing style in Chapter One better than Chapter Two's.
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His right hand, definitely. His left hand's his typing hand.
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In addition to the invisible arrows being fired, other continuity errors to watch for are: 1) When Merry and Pippin are escaping from the orcs, there hands are tied. The horse rears over Pippin. Pippin screams, his hands are untied and out to the side. He rolls onto his chest and starts crawling away. His hands are tied. He cuts the cords. 2) Except for Sam, everyone's leaf broach points at their right shoulder. When they arrive at the mound of burning Orcs, the leaf broaches on Aragorn and Legolas change direction. They stay pointed in the wrong direction during the tracking of footprints and into the woods. As soon as Legolas speaks to Aragorn in Elvish, the broaches return the correct direction. As the broaches are not symmetrical, this is not an issue of flipping the film. They are on upside-down. 3) After Sam gives his speech at the end, and Faramir agrees to let them go, Sam brushes one of the Gondorian soldier's hands of his shoulder. In this scene, it looks like the film was reversed because both Sam and Frodo's broaches are backward. I have not seen the DVD yet, so I do not know if these have been fixed.
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Oh, that's it. The movie must suck, then. Actually, that kind of stuff is interesting. Where'd you find that, moviemistakes.com?
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Actually, I began wondering about the broaches during FOTR:EE, because Sam's is upside down immediately (at the gift giving scene). Halloween had just passed and I only had 11 1/2 months to prepare for this year. Also, the reason men's buttons are on the right and women's buttons are on the left come from a time when men dressed themselves but women were dressed by servants. As Sam is Frodo's servant, I was trying to see if there was a correlation. Now, everytime I see an elven broach on anyone, the direction jumps out. The thing with Pippin's hands being tied, then untied, then tied, then cut, was just so bloody obvious (and is shown twice in the film) that I saw that first time out of the gate. As I saw it 8 times in the theater, I did not mean any disrespect to the film. In fact, I bought the DVD but have only watched the special features so far.
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Aug 27, 2003 5:16:24 PM CDT
More important than these continuity errors is the question of '
by miami mofo
I have watched the TTT SEV preview twice and have yet to see the "evil looking stew" that Aragorn supposedly eats -- so evil that the first reviewers of this preview all commented on it. Nu? So what happened to my stew?
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Aug 27, 2003 5:27:19 PM CDT
And I agree with you, Ribbons, on a lot of those things
by pallando blue
My own deal with Grim isn't his opinions, but his delivery. And the ubiquity. The fellow doesn't need a LOTR talkback to bring up T2T and hyperbole of its suckitude. Then he returns with the wounded "What, me? I liked the first one, wll buy this one, why are you upset?" Same old, old, old pattern. So he gets the occasional poo flung back at him. I wish I was above the snotty remark myself. But not when I'm this tired. O woe. *** The movies, now, THAT'S a worthwhile conversation! By all means, everyone's got a right to their opinion, and I loooove talking the fine points. (I honestly do get sick of TBing about TBing.) First, hope you didn't think I was "freaking out" that someone could possibly not spontaneously orgasm on every gorgeous frame of LOTR. Nor do I disagree that T2T should be better able to stand on its own. It's certainly not flawless. (I've even had an exchange with a filmmaker related to LOTR, and even he admitted that while they're all happy with the end result, the middle child was by far the toughest to put together and some of the seams and cracks from the effort are there wide open to see.) By far neither is Fellowship! The first movie is RIFE with moments I find completely exasperating and IMO requiring a rewrite, or alternate line delivery. I could bog this down for an hour rattling em off. And none of them are "adaptation" issues, either, or were things "fixed" by the SEV. And the SEV added a couple of its own. ...BUT. And YET. Jackson and crew delivered a film worthy of every acclaim its received. For every little ____ that gnaws at my temple, there's uncountable, unbelievably numerous reasons to dismiss those gripes as irrelevant. (Doesn't stop me from wincing a little every viewing, tho.) And THAT is why I find these flicks so miraculous. And then to think what they MIGHT have been... Jesus Christ. I am and always have been a movie geek more than a Tolkien nut. And on THAT level, I'm just grateful I get to watch these mad things. *** Now as for T2T, there were actually less of those moments for me. I have plenty of criticisms of choices in adaptation, and after the SEV sneak peak of the editing as well. But I think it DOES hold up well as a movie, or as well as a movie with neither an introduction nor a conclusion to anchor it CAN hold up (neither of which anyone could possibly have expected of it). But as the Action between the Set-up and the Climax, I think it holds up very well. So, arrives the whole "it's all ONE movie, you moron!" whine, then. (Did I whine?) ...OK I gotta go now. Back tomorrow. But I'll emphasize again, that when watching the two films back to back, they are FAR less dissimilar than many who loved the first but hated the second may realize. And maybe the first film's flaws--some very flat jokes, a LOT of exposition, just to name two--will be more apparent now that novelty and comparative memory aren't as much a factor. *** And what's this "YOU Tail-Enders"? There's no sign-up sheet, application process, or dues. All one needs is "nothing better to talk about." If yer still showing up at the poster TB... ya may be one of us sad lifeless fuckers already. ;)
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I didn't mean "sad, lifeless fuckers" (not necessarily anyway) when I referred to Tail-Enders. I referred to the lot of you that call yourselves Tail-Enders. You know, the ones that go "this article is too crowded. Search the archives for Moriarty's review!" Those people. It's not just "you Tail-Enders" that make groan-inducing comments like "it's one big story!," but I referenced you guys since you're more identifiable than people who just float in and out at random.
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I did that as a joke, dude.
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Aug 27, 2003 6:16:43 PM CDT
"just because he's buying the movie doesn't mean he doesn't have
by minderbinder
I'd buy it if he was just pointing out the flaws of the movie, but no, he claims it's horrible and it sucks. (And he's not even making the argument that the movie is bad but entertaining) Make up your mind, you obviously see some redeeming qualities in the movie if you're buying it. It's just another case of a guy posting on the 'net who can't see the shades of grey between Best Movie Ever and Worst Movie Ever. Hyperbole and credibility don't mix.
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I did! And on the poster TB, too--thought it was funny, even. I was being entirely self-deprecating with the sad, lifeless fuckers comment. Didn't mean to ascribe it to you, it was self-mocking. Trust me, we know how obsessive we sound. Are. Well, maybe I was referencing Grim again, a little, being something he might add. So, once again, my delivery plainly sucked. Sorry about that. My A-game's LONG gone today. Dude backatcha. ;) No worries, chum, good typing w/ ya. *** And for what it's worth, I REALLY regret that stupid fucking link. Sorry, MG, that was a dumbass prank, and not like me. I still think you're a dick ;) but that was uncalled for. *** Miami, I think it was them bastards that have seen the entire damn SEV already and leaked comments about it, that mentioned the Chef Eowyn scene. Now, tho, what I'm thinking is, the scene with the two refugee kids is going to get a larf, what with them wolfing down the same gruel Aragorn had to slip to the plant. Or, maybe it'll just underscore their desperation and exhaustion. It'll depend on the cut. *** Okay, that's it, they HAVE to let me go home now.
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Wal-Mart sold me a copy for $14.87 and gave me a free glowing ring necklace for getting it between midnight and 6 a.m. And despite all this, I shall again purchase the Extended Edition because it is an entirely different movie with the extra footage added in. The EE's are there to tie in with the book more closely. I applaud PJ for releasing both versions. And honestly, $45 for six disks isn't too bad at all. And, if you're a really big fan, there's still the Ultimate Edition with the Gollum statue. It's nice to have an option for the casual fan, the collector, and the book purists.
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I just realized that Gollum looks like James Carville. News shows will never be the same again.
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...that thought Phillipa Boyens is an enchantly charming and beautiful woman. Oh well, wouldn't be the first time I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong. :)
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Maybe he's buying it because he *wants* to find something redeeming about it. Although we could argue about whether or not "sucks" is a real critique for hours, I'm sure that he doesn't truly believe it sucks in general, but comparatively speaking. It was a departure from what he wanted and/or expected. Grimloch, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, so if I'm offbase feel free to speak up for yourself.
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Well, okay, that's....okay, I'm just saying, people shouldn't get their panties in a twist. I mean, minderbinder here is telling the guy he's not qualified to simply say he thought a movie sucked since he's buying it. This coming from the guy who's been giving Peter Jackson a blowjob for the better length of this talkback. Damn, man, don't your knees have rugburn already?
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Previously, I hoped to live to see the famous trilogy come to life. Now, I live to see that Harvard Lampoon's BORED OF THE RINGS gets made before David Zucker screws up some alternate parody. This is soooo ripe for a really big budget takeoff. And if half as funny as the book....
CHAPTER 6: MINAS TRONEY IN THE SOUP. The battle against Fordor w/ Frito, Spam, Goodgulf, Legolam, Arrowroot of Arrowshirt, Goddam, etc., etc. "[loosely]When the warriors of Middle Earth found their courage tested, facing certain death from Sorhed's legions or running away.... it is sung in song today, that the dust did not settle for two weeks." This could definitely be another HOLY GRAIL in the right hands. Def...def...definitely. -
Shill away, Quinty. You seem to know what side your bread is buttered on. Any more plugs you wanna get in? What about the fast-food tie-ins associated with the films? C'mon, don't you wanna get free burgers for life? You're simply not applying yourself. Fifty more words of meaningless drivel and you could have pushed your tongue that much further up corporate America's ass.
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Finally got round to watching the DVD. Now, while I enjoyed it better than the first movie, I still have a massive problems with TTT, basically from the Warg attack through to Helms Deep. ------------1) Warg attack and Aragorns death. Why? I can understand the reaons for a fight at that stage in the movie, but Striders supposed death accomplishes nothing, unless it's just a crude way of shoe horning the Arwen stuff in. ---------2) Ents. Why 'trick' Treebeard. It's out of character, too hasty. Again no need. ----------3) Too many moaning grubby civilians. We get the idea, they're scared, there's gotta be a good ten minutes that could be cut here.---------4) Faramir. Why, why, why? Anyone who's read the book will know what I mean. -------- 5) Sams speech. Again, if you've read the book you'll know.----------------- 6) Mount Doom. It should IMO be miles away. It would add to the enormity of the journey, no matter how far they travel, it's still a long way away. Not about 3 miles, as it appears to be all the way through TTT.-----------In conclusion, I've no problem with changing the text to help the film, I thought FOTR did this brilliantly. But with the above I thought PJ painted himself into corners that then needed a long time to get out of. More Ents, less refugees. More Gimli/Legolas, less travelling to Osgiliath (Why?). That said, that's just my criticisms, my endorsements will have to wait till another day, as this post is long enough already.
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Aug 28, 2003 8:42:04 AM CDT
"I'm sure that he doesn't truly believe it sucks in general" My
by minderbinder
"I mean, minderbinder here is telling the guy he's not qualified to simply say he thought a movie sucked since he's buying it." You don't get it, do you? I'm not saying anything about being "qualified", I'm just saying actions speak louder than words. Grimloch is entitled to his opinion, I just think the fact that he's buying it (TWICE!) speaks louder about his opinion than his bleating "it sucks piss!" To use your venacular, it's like Grimloch is giving PJ the finger with one hand but giving him a handjob with the other? (and come on, if he was just buying it to give the movie a second chance, why is he buying BOTH VERSIONS?) "the guy who's been giving Peter Jackson a blowjob" Give me a fucking break. Let's see, I like the way they've done multiple releases and I think people who go on anonymous internet boards and bash a movie that they admit to buying are fucking hypocrites, that's "giving the filmmaker a blowjob"? Hell, I didn't even buy the first version, I'm waiting for the second. If you're going to make accusations of metaphorical cock sucking, save them for someone who is buying both versions (Grimloch perhaps)? Just curious, Ribbons, which version are you going to buy (if any)?
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1) It kicks ass! 2) December can't come soon enough. 3) The Throne Room (if one can call that a room) in Minas Tirith is amazing. 4) 200,000 Orcs on the Pelennor! (Hurry Ingold! Hurry!!) 5) Only the Three Hunters (Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli)through The Paths of the Dead? Sure looks that way. 6) I love the use of the score from Arwen's Fate* chapter (of T2T) as the focus of the preview shifts from Minas Tirith to Frodo and Sam's struggles. *[Speaking of Arwen's Fate, DoT, see below.] 7) AND how P.J., Philippa and Ordesky all state that all the great battles and strategies are mere diversions to allow Frodo (and Sam) to reach his goal. THEY GET IT!!!!!!!!! [P.S. Mt. Doom does not look three miles away!] 8) Besides the movie, I'm also really looking forward to getting 'The Art Of The Return Of The King' book. The artwork shown in the preview is breathtaking, and I'm sure that's just a small sample of what will be included in the book. [Plus, I have the perfect coffee table for all three 'Art of...' books! :~)] 9) Finally (#9, #9, #9), Let me say, I AM ADDICTED TO THIS PREVIEW!!! ***DoT, I'm not sure if it was this or the poster tb where you wondered whether there would be anything on the T2T theatrical DVD that you would rather watch instead of what's on the SEV as was the case with FotR (e.g. the original Shire intro, no black speech, etc.), let me state that in my opinion, P.J. doesn't have to touch Chapters 25 and 30 - 'The Evenstar' and 'Arwen's Fate.' They may make the purists cringe cause they weren't in the book, but I love 'em!
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Does look cool. The Oliphant shots kind of reminiscent of one of the best shots of FOTR, Sam and the cave troll. [OK three miles away is maybe a little on the short side, it should look less of an achievable distance though] And I had no intention of buying this version, but walking through Sainsburys I saw it 4 days early with
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I was contemplating just waiting for the SEV, anyway, so I'm not too upset that amazon still hasn't delivered (probably today). I broke down mainly because I knew it would probably pay for itself with the ROTK preview... and just in case some good clip does get exchanged with another for the SEV. But Earthworm, I agree with all your points - except, possibly, about the Ents, which may have been justified for lack of time. Films, unfortunately, are "hasty." However, for those of us who were disappointed by TTT (and stick to our guns after many viewings), those reasons you cite were exactly the reasons why, and with the possible exception of Faramir's character, don't look likely to be altered by the SEV. All this has been hotly debated elsewhere, so I won't belabor the point. But I don't see any contraction between being deeply unhappy with large sections of TTT and still wanting to own both versions. Clearly, there is much there to love and admire, and which one would not want to be without. Things that bear much repeated viewing. And I will be happily skipping chapters to get to them. In fact, within one or two theatrical viewings of TTT, I was already anticipating leaving the cringing civilians in the dust. I just hope the chapters are edited to make this possible. There's little question I will love everything to do with the hobbits in ROTK, but the film - as a whole - will rise or fall for me depending on how much focus is given to characters (and that includes Dernhelm, Eomer, et al.) as opposed to massive charges and battles seen from afar or in a close-up blur. Obviously there are a lot of people for whom bigger is better, who preferred TTT to FOTR because there was less of that boring talk and character development, and that this somehow made TTT more "epic" (puzzling to me, because "Lawrence of Arabia" is as epic as it comes, and yet 90% of it is scenes in tents and oases and officers' bars - you know, brilliant dialogue between compelling characters), and that is what I will be looking for in ROTK, and not whether they throw another hundred thousand computer-generated orcs onto the screen. And I still think it's brutal that in the final chapter, we will have to wait another 11 months for the character moments to be fully revealed.
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'The Art Of The Return Of The King' will go on sale January 1st. I was expecting to have to wait until April, which was when 'The Art Of The Two Towers' was released. ***Anyone wishing to see the December 16th marathon of LotR:FotR SEV, LotR:TTT SEV, and LotR:RotK can have my seat. After watching both the FotR and TTT theatricals on Tuesday, I realize that there ain't no way my butt could take another three plus hours -- and at 11PM no less. I'd much rather be awake and refreshed, so I'll just stick with my plan of catching the first show on Wednesday the 17th (note: I do plan on seeing the SEV's on the big screen earlier in the month). ***Pallando: It's Thursday! 'Canes v. La. Tech tonight on ESPN. It's our time of the year!! Let the games begin!!!
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Finally got around to watching ALL of the divida extras and I must say the WB documentary was the best. Well, except for Barrie Osborne
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Aug 28, 2003 2:40:14 PM CDT
(swoops in on a rope, landing clumsily on his broken flipper) "D
by mortsleam
This is a job for...The Walrus! (Unlike Batman, The Walrus doesn't cringe at unneccessary pronoun usage.) Yessss...I've watched that tasty little ten-minute preview non-stop since Tuesday. Truly amazing, jaw-dropping, mouth-wateringly good stuff. Yet I can already hear people setting their tasers on "bitch." "B-b-but, why are just Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli going through the POTD? Waaaa!" Pfft. I don't care, that entrance is so freaking creepy it makes up for the excision of the Barrow-Downs. Pellenor Fields (forever?) just looks to be off tha hook! And PJ actually planned it out like a real battle! And I can't say enough about how good-goddamn unbelievably cool the Gandalf vs. Nazgul scene looks. Even better than the Frodo vs. Nazgul shot which so conveniently illustrates the extras menu. (elanor, Alice, DoT, Xyxan, feel free to disagree. I know the Frodo scene is all swoonerific and all, I'm just saying GvN looks cooler. Not swoonier, just cooler.) *** Now for the nitpicks. I must confess the Faramir & Boromir material from the TTT SEV worries me, ONLY because I'm afraid adding more Un!Faramir will take away from the much needed extra hobbit-centric footage. I was discussing this with Strawberry Shortcake yesterday. She is of the opinion that TTT is decidedly less perfect than FOTR, mainly because of the shift in focus away from the hobbits, who afterall occupy more than 60% of the screen time in FOTR. TTT can't help but be less emotionally involving, even if it's more visually dazzling. I was hoping this would be rectified in the SEV. Who knows? Perhaps the extra Rohan & Osgiliath footage will help cement the emotional attachment to the newer characters while still providing more time with the "little ones." One can hope. *** Finally, I really didn't like the "Gollum's Song" video. The TTT scenes were fine of course, but those shots of Emiliana Torrini in the fake recording session with those ridiculous headphones? Yrch. Even though I thought Enya's "May It Be" video was a tad...uhm...wispy, it had a better match of music and visuals. Emiliana could have at least looked at the camera once in awhile. Or walked around ME-type landscapes. Anything to put her more into the frame of the song. Anyone know what I'm talkig about? Imagine her wandering blindfolded through the dead marshes like Tori Amos in "Spark." I dunno, maybe that's just my wet'n'blindfolded singer fetish talking...
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i've read your posts, and admittedly they all had their points to be made.
i will try to comment on what i recall, but certainly i am going to forget much of what each of you posted (i'm pretty tired as well, Pallando.)
first off, Ribbons, i actually do appreciate the "support", if you will, that you offered with your various comments.
to answer several questions, yes, i obviously found SOME merit in TTT, or i would not be purchasing any version, (to be clear, i am actually only purchasing the 2 disc edition, and will likely receive the 5 disc gift box as a Christmas item from a lady friend. so i guess i am not really committing myself to two purchases. certainly, between now and the holidays, i will "get my money's worth" from the theatrical cut.) however, i found the approach to the material to be vastly inferior to the manner in which FOTR was tackled. i have covered this in previous posts, extending back as far as 6 months (which demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt that i am just as much of a fuckwad for being on these talkbacks as anyone else.) and i am sorry but i dont intend to post every reason, every time i appear in the TB. suffice it to say i found the restructuring of the original text to be wanting. i thought the battle scenes, especially the Warg attack, to be horribly photographed, with constant camera shaking that made me more nauseous than excited. even the Helm's deep battle had alot of this annoying presentation for "up close" combat.
further, the referencing to the Arwen back story was dull, and unnecessary. we already know the concept inside and out from FOTR. including it in TTT was done for one reason, and one reason alone. to emphasize the love angle. and that, dear friends, is to appease mainstream audiences unfamiliar with Tolkien's story, which plotted the Aragorn/Arwen story in a footnoted index.
i strongly disliked the acting for the character of Faramir, and was disappointed with the portrayal of Theodin. Eowyn, hopefully, will be given some relevant screen time in ROTK, other than staring at Aragorn like a lost puppy. Eomer, on the other hand, shows promise, despite the miniscule role.
as for the "original" characters, Gimli is, as far as i'm concerned, as entertaining and engaging now as Jar Jar Binks.
Legolas is a bland character, whose sole purpose is to play out some "cool" moments of action that the audience is supposed to marvel at.
also, quite frankly, i don't particularly care for Viggo Mortensen. and the added scene of him going over the cliff was a laughable choice for the screenwriters to attempt to infuse drama in a story that has enough already.
as for the hobbits, well, i didnt hate Sam until that utterly sickening, sweet, syrupy, speech at the end when Sean Astin might just as well have stepped up to a podium, faced the theater audience, and proclaimed how it is necessary to "fight the good fight".
that scene, by itself, made the film a washout for me.
Howard Shore's excellent score from the FOTR was reduced to uninspired background noise, with only a few moments of interesting new themes.
sorry guys, but i loved the score in the first film, and thought it was really weak here.
ok, enough rattling about the picture's faults. the strengths can be summed up with one word, loudly spoken..."GOLLUM".
excellent on all levels, this character is the one that makes the film worth the purchase, for me.
TTT is a well produced film. its just not a particularly well written, acted, or directed picture, with the lone exception being Gollum.
finally, as if i havent blabbed enough, i admit to often purchasing films i don't particularly like, to find, as someone already theorized, some merit in them.
maybe owning TTT will give me some new observations on the film. hell, i might change my mind altogether.
it will not be the first time.
i'm sure there is more, regarding all your posts, that i wish to comment on, but my memory is failing me.
one last thing, give Black Metal a listen. the layering of each instrument, and the lyrical makeup (no pun intended) is often engaging.
not every band is worthy, but that is no different than any other music branch.
take care, all. -
I must admit, that this scene was one of my favorite in the movie. The actor (Bernard Hill?) playing King Theoden is note perfect. Very, very good stuff. *** On another note, I guess I do not share the critique that TTT is short on character development. I find that each of the main characters has to go through some interesting changes, even if they are in the midst of great carnage and whatnot. Also, I do not share the rather comment lament regarding Faramir. I understand Jackson's reasoning, and in the context of the film, it makes a great deal of sense. It is consonant with the way the ring is presented in the context of the film. Now, I fully understand that many are not satisfied with that answer, I am. I look forward to Return of the King, we are in for a great ride.
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of course someone read your post. me!
do you think i would enter a talkback and not see what you had to say?
i'm hurt.
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The Extended Edition, for reasons I've already discussed. And paying for a movie does not equate to unabashedly defending everything Peter Jackson does, so it's not exactly like "giving Peter Jackson a handjob."
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"His will was set and only death would break it." Boy does that ever give me the chills. ***morGoth, re THEY GET IT, many posters around here have expressed concern with what they perceive to be the increse of the Aragorn/Man element of the story resulting in the decrease of the Hobbits' role in the movie. It was just nice to hear from the film makers themselves that they understand what the story is about, despite the absence of SotS. ***Maybe I'm a sap, but I don't see what's so awful about Sam's speech. I think it sums everything up quite nicely. I also don't have a problem with Faramir (thus I refuse to use the un). My main problem, besides a little too much cringing, is still 'tricking Treebeard to attack' -- grrr, me hates it -- and I don't think the SEV will be able to fix that.
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First let me remind you that when you posed your question on the other tb, most of us had yet to obtain a copy of our own T2T DVD. That was why I completely ignored it -- I really didn't know what you were talking about. As for going through PotD on foot, it does pose a problem, but I'm sure P.J. has got it figured out. Don't forget YOUR mantra: Trust P.J. [Or should that have been yoUr mantra? ;~)] I only hope that that report of Gimli being used once again as comic foil during PotD proves false. Pippin has already caused one skeleton to fall down a well (a very effective change, imo); we don't need Gimli to cause an 'avalanche of skulls' just for ha ha's.
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Well I've been enjoying this DVD for several days now and first of all let me say Wow! to the preview of Return Of The King footage. It made my jaw drop and I hope the same holds true for the finished version. As for TTT itself - well, it is what it is. Luckily I can now fast-forward to the bits I like, so I don't feel so badly about it. I agree with morGoth though, that the stuff they're adding to the extended version looks substantially more interesting than some of the material in the original cut. I'm very curious to see how the extra forty (forty!) minutes will affect the movie as it I firmly believe this is a movie that needs to be shorter - not longer! One problem I've noticed with the DVD transfer of TTT - and it's a problem shared by most movies with extensive digital effects - is that the scenes of computer-generated armies just don't work very well on the small screen - because the little soldiers end up being way too small. Even though I've been watching this on a gigantic widescreen TV, the heroic charge of the Rohirrim looks more like the charge of the enraged ants. A real shame as this is my favorite sequence in the movie. The jaw-dropping shot of the riders arriving like a tidal wave is just way too much for the DVD format to handle - it now looks like a pixellated blur, whereas in the cinema you could make out the individual horses and their riders. God knows how this looks on regular-sized TV screens. I've seen the pan-and scan version and it actually works a lot better in this respect. By the way, I've been showing the LOTR movies to a relative who is not a Tolkien fan. He thought FOTR was one of the best movies he'd ever seen - but found TTT "boring" and thought it borrowed too much from other movies. I kept my mouth shut whilst he watched. Interestingly he commented during Helm's Deep, "why is the dwarf joking around in the middle of a battle?". All I could do was shake my head sadly. Still, my sister loves TTT and prefers it to FOTR so there we are. One other thing whilst watching the "making of" documentaries - I wonder if anyone else is getting as fed up as I am by the constant gushing of those involved in the movies? I feel they're doing more harm than good to how these movies are perceived. This applies particularly to the actors who are an embarrasssment and should never be interviewed. It is a constant source of astonishment to me that actors who put in such fine, nuanced performances can in interviews appear so profoundly stupid and have such a poor understanding of the story they're involved in. This goes for all the actors. It does no good at all to repeatedly hammer us over the head with how these movies are "making history" if the movies can't convince us of that all by themselves. If they really have faith in these movies than they should let them speak for themselves and not ruin the whole thing by over-selling it. Which brings me onto my final worry (Orson wouldn't be Orson without some moaning and whinging): the claims made by the filmmakers that ROTK will be "better than parts 1 and 2 combined". Quite apart from the fact that one should never believe a word of this sort of hype, just what do they mean by "better" exactly? If they mean that there will be more schmaltz and sentimentality, than I would say "better" definitely means "worse". Similarly, if "better" means spelling out the themes of the story and then repeatedly hammering us to death with them, then this will be far, far worse. And if "better" means ten times more tiny CGI soldiers milling about in the far distance, this will not be "better" at all. Nor will padding out a two-and-a-half hour movie to three or four hours. Sorry to be so doom-laden, but the hype-mongering of these people really causes me to worry. I hope they haven't lost the run of themselves and I genuinely believe that they don't need to force the pathos of the story down our throats. The pathos is already right there in the story. Just tell it to us straight and we will find it moving all by ourselves. I'd hate ROTK to turn into a Judy Garland tear-jerker and hope to God that nothing I've just written here comes true.... ***** Thanks for that link, DoT: very interesting - and worth it just for the letter from the great man himself. I agree with you as regards fears that ROTK might overdo the CGI battles and sword-fighting. I notice that in the "making of" documentaries, the fight chreography looks way more exciting than what is actually shot for the movie - due to the camera being in way too close. And conversely, Newline have so little faith in their MASSIVE technology that they won't let the camera get within a mile of those little fellas who are supposedly "fighting" each other...
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When will certain individuals here realize that this talkback is not about them? You hide behind this sense of entitlement like it's a badge. It's as much in our right to say it sucks (which it doesn't) as it is for you to like it, and more so.
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about the coolness of Gandalf's confrontation with the Nazgul in ROTK. Now I know PJ et al are a bit against 'magic' but if I don't get to see a frickin beam of white light stab upwards from Gandalf's hand when he confronts the Nazgul, well I'm afraid I'll have to withdraw my support for this movie... I think that was my favourite 'part' of the whole book, when Gandalf rode out tov save Faramir from the Nazgul with Pippin looking on, "Gandalf! he cried. 'Gandalf! He always turns up when things are darkest. Go on! Go on, White Rider! Gandalf, Gandalf!' he shouted wildly... How about it? Would anyone else care to outline their favourite moment from Rotk? Cheers.
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Well cut off my head and stick it on a pike but lummee iffen I knows how you need to have seen the RoTK preview to get that Miami! An
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You do recognize personal attacks when you see them, right? Right? Oh, the "Freedom from choise..." thing from the RoTK/Kill Bill teaser poster TB was just a paraphrase from that famous Devo song. That's all...your post just reminded me of that.
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Yeah I do, but I must have missed something. Admittedly I haven't read that many posts on this talkback. Why?
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...the Dernhelm and Hobbit tag-team on You-Know-Who. Wait! But then there's...(fill in the blank many times).
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i find it rather hilarious that in your determination to point out how factually fantastic these LOTR films are, you make the error of stating they will "age like fine whine".
would that have anything to do with the "whining" that shut-ins suffering from an arrested state of development, such as you and Morgoth, do on each and every talkback that deals with some element from these overrated films?
trust me, these films are NOT aging from the same vintage of "wine" that real classics do.
and no amount of bullshit special longer versions is gonna change that.
ok Ribbons, go for the kill on this dipshit. -
Aug 28, 2003 10:56:44 PM CDT
Gaffer spies Orson cramking up the "Self-fulfilling Prophecy of
by morgoth
C'mon Orson, you're starting your pre-nagativity campaign against RoTK just like you did with TTT. Relax already willya and cut back on the Sneerola Cola just a bit? RoTK's ALREADY not up to your standards!
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...I guess it means you're selective in your reading {[;^)
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...seen that lure before. It didn't work then and it won't work now. Keep trying though, I'm amused but "
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Hee hee, thanks for that, morGoth. I ended up writing a bit of a tirade. Did I really mount a pre-TTT campaign? I remember voicing some suspicions at the time but was otherwise hoping that it would be as good as FOTR - which in many places it is. To my credit, I have stated that what we've seen so far of ROTK absolutely rocks - I defy anyone not to be knocked speechless by those shots of the charging Rohirrim - with REAL horses this time! - No chance of these bad boys getting lost on the DVD transfer! But you can hardly blame me for worrying...**** With regards to the "Sauron thinks Pippin has the ring" plot - I like the idea a lot: it's expanding on what was already in the book - sounds great to me. As for the inconsistency you've pointed out with Frodo's encounter with the Nazgul at Osgiliath - my bet is that they just won't bother explaining it because most people actually won't notice - a bit like the way Gandalf met Merry and Pippin BEFORE Aragorn+Legolas+Gimli and yet still didn't know his own name...
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That I have seen Grimcrock of the Wee Black Metal Spike pretend to change his tune when the heat is on and one poster shows some support. Twice now I have watched him spew his bile, begging for attention. Then when it starts to overwhelm him (this time in the form of excellent satire by ebonic and Pallando) he then miraculously attracts a champion (in this case, Ribbons).
Suddenly he changes his tune, and
comes up with an "explanatory"
post, trying to be all logical and shit. When that doesn't attract a fast enough response, he goes back to his trolling. Enough, I say. It's gonna take a lot more than one "logical" post to erase the stinky signature you've made all by yourself, you dirty troll. And don't think I care whether you stay or not. I'm only posting this for the newcomers. I know the rest of us get it.***MorG, my darling, I think something got lost in translation somehow. I think Miami was only saying that since the main story of LOTR is Frodo's
Quest and that since there was a (rightful but bemoaned by some) shift in emphasis onto "the world
of men" in Towers, that it feels good to be reminded that the main story has not been lost sight of after all. Some of us were never worried about that, but to hear Ordesky and Boyens say so in such clear and exciting terms, was gratifying, indeed, certainly to me.****
SPOILER WARNING My thoughts on the no-horsey PoD, PJ may be fudging the geography of the pass a bit or he may be fudging Pelargir. Or maybe they get a lift from the Dead? Or maybe they float down a river to the Sea? Or maybe their two horses are tied up somewhere out of camera range and first they want to walk in to see what's inside? Something's gotta give for sure.
***And I wanted to mention that that cool night scene of Aragorn walking to join Gandalf looks to me for all the world like the moment right after Pippin looks in the stone. Say Merry is comforting Pippin and Gandalf walks away, sighing in relief that no worse harm has been done.
Aragorn joins him, concerned. They discuss strategy. This results in G giving A the stone and then A takes it somewhere to look in it. What do you bet the Dead Prophecy is given to him IN THE STONE! That might let the un-read audience wonder if it's true or a trap set for Aragorn by Sauron. What thinks thou? -
Yeah, I am. On a sort of different topic and to sometimes different people, I have this to say: these movies probably will develop a legacy over time, and as long as it gets kids to make movies, I'm cool with that. I'm not cool with the "none shall speak ill of the hobbits!" attitude that some people have, but as long as they don't make their infatuation other people's problem, then fine. When that "facist bullying" does go down, you have to realize that these movies aren't perfect in a lot of glaring ways. If people have problems with them then that's their prerogative as a moviegoer. Before you ask us to shut up, why don't you ask yourselves why the idea of dissent bothers you in the first place? And I'm not talking about every single person who wants to love these movies. Hell, Grimloch WANTS to love these movies; that's why he bought it at Wal-Mart or wherever. If it was nitpicking about stupid stuff like, I dunno, costumes not being yellow spandex, I'd find it irritating (even then though, it's not your right to tell said person to shut up). But when it has to do with contrivance, dialogue, and character, you can't try to suppress our opinions because you want to be transported to another dimension and stay there every time you watch a movie. That's your problem, not necessarily ours as talkbackers in general. If there are only two people who wanna hear about dissent on this talkback, well then I guess I have an audience of one. If there WERE personal attacks made, the likes of which I haven't the effort to research (I barely had the effort to write this vague piece of shit), then I'm sorry for pointing out a certain individual. But you still need to listen to what you're saying and reevaluate your priorities, dude.
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I'm not defending the "I'll shove a doberman's head up your ass" stuff, just his right to dislike the movies. Like I said, I didn't see any personal attacks.
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After some falderal on the VMA talkbacks which I regret even starting in the first place but don't think I'm entirely in the wrong for, I've gained a bit of a different perspective as far as ostracized "trollers" go.
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Watching the TTT DVD reinforces some doubts about the logic of some of the Jackson/Boyens/Walsh/Sinclair adaptation decisions which added new material to the story. Sebasian Faulks, who wrote the novel "Charlotte Gray" suggested that adapting a book to a film could be likened to adapting a watercolour painting to a statue. Obviously major changes, additions and excisions need to be made. But decisions affecting plot logic can have unexpected consequences. ******* I know a lot of this has been raised before, but despite all the good things in TTT, I hope that RotK involves fewer major changes to the original story line.
The battle with the Wargs inserts a strong action beat and ultimately results in Aragorn observing the unexpected size of the approaching army - a matter which emphasises Theodens' misjudged overconfidence and reveals how outnumbered the defenders of the Hornburg really were. Understandable new dramatic/cinematic elements. But the credibility cost is high. Aragorn inexplicably survives a fall off a cliff, tangled up with a huge ferocious Hyena/Rat hybrid (what's wrong with sentient wolves, like the book) onto rocks/torrent 60-80-100?? feet below. He then floats, unconscious, in armour, for a substantial distance. He's then woken up by a horse with the SuperMammal Hybrid Brain of RinTinTin/Flipper/Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. (This is Theodred's battle-crazed horse, shown to have been set loose by Aragorn after the Battle of the Fords of Isen in the SEV) The only result of his fall (apart from a wet dream) is a nasty scrape on his shoulder and - presumably - bruises. So why imply Aragorn is Bruce Willis in Die Hard - ie. effectively indestructible? Isn't it enough that Legolas is not inconvenienced by the Laws of Physics. Do we need yet another scene where a principal character - putting Gandalf aside - appears to have died but then springs insouciantly back into action (like Frodo's "fatal" Troll injury, Sam's "Drowning", Aragorn "blown up" during the Hornburg wall breach).
Gimli's lack of anxiety during the battle of the Hornburg is understandable. Obviously the 10,000 Uruks are pretty hopeless fighters. After all, the oldest is only aged about 6 months. The "Build me an army worthy of Mordor" instruction occurred when Gandalf was a prisoner at Isengard (in about August 3018 III) shortly after which (in the movie) the Uruks were conceived and hatched/born/extruded. No wonder Gimli - an experienced 139 year old - treats the battle as a bit of a lark with these foolhardy toddlers.
How is it that Pippin was able to trick Treebeard? Pippin inexplicably seems to know all about the destruction of trees around Isengard, yet Treebeard, whose job as local Tree Shepherd is to know this stuff, is taken by surprise. Treebeard then unilaterally declares war - without the need for another Entmoot. The brief indication that Gandalf met Pippin/Merry/Treebeard in Fangorn doesn't logically answer this problem.
What's this new stuff about Arwen living an indefinitely long time after she makes the choice to be mortal. Elrond knows about the choice of mortality. His brother Elros took that course 6,462 years earlier. True, Elrond is genetically 37.25% mortal and Arwen is only 18.75% mortal applying the usual statistical rules, but Arwen's true dilemma is whether to renounce immortality, not whether to miss a boat to Valinor. And why those misleading clues that she is travelling to the Havens with Aragorn's knowledge? Whatever the cinematic value of inserting more Arwen/Aragorn smooching, the edits here create a distracting logical muddle.
I can understand why the screenwriters would risk distorting the logic of the book by getting Elves to Helm's Deep, but it would have been less jarring if they had avoided the implication that some of the elves were from Rivendell. Even with Elrond and Galadriel's newly acquired long-distance telepathy, those guys couldn't have made it in time - within the logic of the film.
The screenwriter's decision to change Faramir's personality is understandable, maybe even inevitable as part of the adaptation process, but taking the Ring to Osgiliath opens up logical problems. The writers have to get Faramir et al through the massing Orcs on the eastern shore, across the river (bridges are taken) then get the Ring back from the western side to Minas Morgul. In the meantime, Frodo has shown the Ring to one of the Nazgul (who presumably will report the fact back to The Big Guy forthwith) - which undermines the later plot developments (Sauron thinks Pippin has the Ring - see RotK preview; alternatively Sauron thinks Aragorn has control if not possession of the Ring - see Book of the same name. Either way, Sauron should logically have no hint that the ring is only about 40 miles from Minas Morgul).
That Faramir, waging guerilla warfare in Ithilien, would rely on a map which does not show the major local enemy stronghold - Minas Morgul - or (if I remember the map correctly) the second nearby stronghold - the fort of Cirith Ungol - is kind of puzzling since his military character is emphasised in the movie.(At http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ these issues are pursued in more detail).
Legolas' comment that the Uruks were now heading "northeast" (ie directly away from Isengard) looks like a simple script error. Saruman's "possession" of Theodred and the "exorcism" - which supplies Theoden with an instant botox/beard-trim makeover - would be fine in Conan the Barbarian. But in this movie it implies Saruman, and therefore Gandalf, has powers never hinted at in the book and which could have been used to cause or save Frodo a lot of grief.
For all of Tolkien's shortcomings as a "novelist", he tried to be scrupulous about plot logic. The scriptwriters have every right to reshape and embellish the story to extract a movie from Tolkien's vast sprawl of detail, but the distracting logical problems introduced by the *additional* material weaken TTT, IMHO. Further changes in RotK (no Rangers/Elf-twins in Paths of the Dead, Legolas afraid of ghosts, Pippin thought to be Ringbearer, Nazgul touchdown in Minas Tirith) with their consequential logical loose ends are a little disheartening in the circumstances.
Or do I just need to get out more?
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I just chalked that up to Peter Jackson's roots as the 'Dead Alive' guy and a horror buff in general. Whatever, let the dude have his fun.
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And that's that after the fall the fall from the cliff (with all its attendant complications, as mentioned), Aragorn somehow floats to shore with his sword neatly sheathed. Are we to assume that in his mid-air tumble, as he was able to extricate himself from the warg, he ALSO made himself tidy by sheathing the sword before impact? And what does that sword weigh, added to the weight of his armor? And yet, he floats, effortlessly, face up. NAKED men don't float that well, unless they have a far higher percentage of body fat than any Ranger, let alone a lean man in armor with a sword.
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I agree DoT. It's interesting that many of the *additional* script elements introduced a swarm of minor, less-obvious logical errors, as well as the glaring problems identified in this and other TB's. Tolkien had to work hard over many years to ensure logical consistency in the fantasy. When the script writers put total faith in the book and the actors some terrific cinematic moments occur - to pick a random example, Bernard Hill's brilliant reading of "Where is the rider ...". I think the risk of misjudgment is greatest when they invent new material rather than carefully editing or cutting existing material. In the cinema, those "WTF!!" moments are real mood-killers - and not just for geeks.
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In fact, isn't it a bit of a paradox that attention to artistic detail was so great in these films that they would agonize over consistency when it came to having just the right clan stamp on button or buckle, yet appear blind to the most glaring IN-consistencies in too many alterations to Tolkien's plot and dialogue? The - as you say - "WTF" moments, which usually result from some wild veering-off from the source material.... Page-to-cinema is not a justification, when it's precisely the WTF factor that adaptation should eliminate. My own sense, watching TTT, is that in too many instances, the filmmakers had a precise visual image in mind, and were willing to sacrifice all logic to attain it. Aragorn floating with his sheathed sword is a wonderful VISUAL image, if you don't mind how he got there.
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And, is it just me, or are the extras, especially the making of's, a little naff? It's nothing we haven't seen before on the other two sets of discs of the first film, I kind of get the impression their spending a lot of time repeating themselves. I guess all the chunky stuff will be on the Extended Edition. Liked the preview stuff but I'm trying not to get excited about it in case I'm horribly disappointed, which is something I do now since 1999 (a condition that I have termed the Episode 1 syndrome). But... I'm sorry, the Legolas 'surfing' down the stairs scene is just naff. If anyone can explain to me the purpose of it, other than being a nod of the head to the New Zealand surfing culture (like the Uruk-hai berserker with the sparkly torch - a homage to Peter Jackson running with the Olympic torch) then I'll be glad to hear it 'cause it just plain blows. I don't mind the changes to the rest of the film. I can see why it upsets purists but as I'm a fan of movies and a HUGE fan of the books (it was my main source of literature when I was a kid) I can see past that and enjoy the film for what it is. I'm not gonna get anal about something that, in general terms, is nothing more than a piece of fantasy fiction - perhaps if it was a historical film I'd be a lot less forgiving. I've written this all down and I'm sure there's something I've forgot... oh, yes - you're all wankers! Almost forgot I was on Talkback, then! Has to be some abuse in there somewhere! ;-)
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that i've seen elanor post about me, when she is allegedly uninterested in anything i have to say.
look, i am not interested in being your boyfriend, so stop stalking me, ok?
i realize that LOTR is sacred material to you, so i will endeavor to "behave" when a TB on said topic arises, for i know how sensitive you are to any negative comments on PJ's "artistic vision".
and as for those who feel it necessary to attack Ribbons, just because he speaks his mind, realize it is futile. Ribbons is not "frightened off" by my "bile spewing", since he has the integrity that so many of you lack, (yes, i mean you moronGoth)and is secure in his OWN views on the film, regardless of what i have to say about it. -
Aug 29, 2003 8:53:53 AM CDT
" In the meantime, Frodo has shown the Ring to one of the Nazgul
by minderbinder
I thought the Nazgul were blind, and only can use the sense of smell and hearing? The movie gives the impression that the Nazgul can only sense the ring while it's being worn (which Frodo almost does but Sam stops him). And how does Saruman possessing Theoden imply that he could somehow do the same with Frodo? I don't get it.
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[OFF-TOPIC BS--WILL BE FOLLOWED BY (marginally) ON-TOPIC BS SO PLEASE DON'T BAN ME thankyouverymuch] 48 to 9, eh? You let those scrubs score 9 on you!? Ha! Turns out yer a buncha Candy 'Canes, lookin' like. ;) C'mooooon Nov. 1! Heading south to parts mountainous myself Sunday, gonna watch in person the humiliation of one of your aspiring Florida cohorts. Add a few (or so) $3 Spaaten Optimators at the Cellar, and this, my friend, shall be a 3-day weekend to remember. [cue fireworks] Didn't watch you all play last night, had one more wall-to-wall evening of extra work (til, oh, TWO AY EM, yyaaargh--at least it's all over now, he says shaking his fists at the heavens). But certainly curious to see if WVA can possibly do what they're supposed to do tomorrow, which is only of course to win a freakin out-of-conference game PLEASE. (ESPN, noon) Mountaineers--just can't trust em. *** Man, disappear for a day and the TB practically doubles in length. Wish I had time to catch up on all of it before scooting for the holiday. Maybe lunch. Cause how big is this fecker gonna be by Tuesday!? ...And hey, who invited THAT asshole? And how did he get my password? Sigh. *** And last, ON TOPIC (See? I told you!). New countdown for us rabid fanboys y -girls: FOUR WEEKS until the Official Final Only Full-Length ROTK trailer is released in theaters, with "Secondhand Lions"! And I have decided that one month is handleable (that is now a word ;p ), so even if the trailer leaks its way onto the Net beforehand--even officially, midnight the 25th/26th--I'm going to see it the FIRST time on the big screen. One month. Four weeks. No problem. Cakewalk. Standing on my head. A snap. See you there.
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Minderbinder, the book was clearer about the Nazgul's awareness of things which those not in the wraithworld could not sense. The movie doesn't get involved in that level of exposition but creates the impression the Nazgul are aware when the Ring is close by. You're quite right that it's inaccurate to say Frodo "shows" the Ring to the Nazgul, but my impression (for what it's worth) is that in that scene Frodo attempts to draw the Nazgul's attention to the immediate presence of the Ring - by holding it up - even if he is prevented from making it clearly visible to the Nazgul by putting it on his finger.*******
If Saruman can "possess" minds and bodies, this is a weapon you might expect him to use on all opponents. Does he have to do this in person? Did he do it to Theoden long distance without ever meeting him? Could he do it to Frodo? Who knows. Likewise, Gandalf, as another Maiar might be assumed to have comparable power Would use it defensively? Why not? **********My only point is this seems like a major new 'super power' introduced by the scriptwriters to get a flashy moment of screentime without much thought about the ramifications.
I agree that PJ is entitled to a few gonzo moments, but for me some of these moments create unnecessary uneveness in the tone of the movie - ie. sometimes respectful, even earnest, attention to the spirit of the book, then a lapse into a popcorn moment like "You shall be the Fellowship of the Ring!" {Like, Cool guys, we shall henceforth be Ocean's Eleven!!} -
You seem to confuse
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I think that the exorcism scene is actually quite a clever way of showing how Theoden is in the thrall of Saruman. It is a physical (and therefore easier to film) manifestation of the spell Theoden was under. Frankly, I thought it a much better way then the book. In a way Saruman, via Wormtongue, was, if not 'possesing' Theoden, definitely controlling the old coot. Thus the film showing that Gandalf was releasing Theoden from that control was a good image, regardless if it somehow depicted something not explained in the book. Or are some of you so versed in Middle Earth magic use, that you know exactly how Saruman and Wormtongue did control Theoden. So Jackson anthropomorphized the control, I think some are perhaps too unwilling for the text to be tinkered with, especially in the service of the narrative of the movie.
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Aug 29, 2003 11:59:11 AM CDT
So how is Theoden's "posession" handled in the book? He's obvio
by minderbinder
I think it is safe to assume that the spell over Theoden is facilitated by Wormtongue's (oops, almost typed Wormtail's) presence, controling someone when you have a henchman there (able to spike Theoden's drink or whatever). Heck, the movie doesn't rule out the possibility that Saruman put the spell on Theoden in person. Seems like something entirely reasonable for a wizard, on the other hand, controlling someone he's never seen in person nor had any physical contact with (not even second-hand) does seem like an unreasonable super power. But again, it's similar to other things that Tolkien wrote that are impossible to show onscreen: Arwen doesn't really cause the river thing, she just asks the river, same with Saruman and the avalanche, he doesn't really have the power to create an avalanche, he just asks the mountain spirit (or whatever it's called) to do it for him.
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Admittedly, the book is much subtler than the film in presenting Theoden as worn down and prematurely aged by defeatist counseling and not possession. The exorcism is, again, a shortcut. (In the book, if I remember correctly, it's more that Gandalf gives him a serious jolt of Will to Live, and not an Extreme Makeover.) I object to that less than I do the over-the-top Wormtongue, who practically oozes black ink, and would be subtly undermining in no one's universe. It is yet another alteration to the source material (in which Wormtongue is described as a wise-appearing counselor) that raises additional questions - the WTF factor in this case being how any court of self-respecting Rohirrim would put up with this ghoulish character for five minutes. And what did happen to his supporters? The ones that exiled Eomer and had to be punched out by the Aragorn and company? Surely no one would want them at his back at Helm's Deep, no matter how short-handed they were.
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There is a telling scene in TTT when he speaks with Eowyn. The swirling pseudo-seduction one where she's nearly convinced by him and there's a passable attempt to convey just how beguiling his words are. If they'd made just slightly more of this scene I don't think anyone would have a problem with Theoden. Even as is it explains a lot though.
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I wasn't talking about you. "On a somewhat different topic...." ring any bells? I'm not willfully ignoring personal attacks, I honestly just missed them. Tell you what: I'll be a good boy and read the entire talkback, just for you.
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In the book, when the team arrives at Edoras, Theoden is an old bent man with white hair, but able to walk and talk: not a doddering senile wreck. Gandalf "snaps" him out of deep depression and inaction, using some minor theatrics. Theoden gradually recovers. The impression (not spelt out in the book) is that Theoden was put into this state by the whisperings (and maybe actual poison) of Wormtongue. My gripe is that PJ goes too far over the top (just my view, your mileage may differ) in TTT by the instantaneous transformation (including beard-trim) from Total Drooling Aged Dementia to Ruddy Good Health. The "morphing" scene is also a bit of a Fantasy movie cliche (see Conan the Bavarian). Other scenes show that PJ & Co are capable of much better than this.
By adding the extra ingredient *long distance mind-control* the scriptwriters are doing what DoT described concisely a few posts ago ... veering a long way off course to bag a particular effect which appeals to them.********As for Arwen causing the flood, in the book, she's not on the scene and Gandalf and Elrond jointly cause the flood. I thought that using Arwen instead of Glorfindel, Elrond and Gandalf in that sequence involved some pretty skilfull screenwriting, even though it was quite a change from the book. It avoided the need for a lot of exposition. It introduced Arwen in a well-judged way consistently with her new profile as a character in the movie. ******There have been a lot of gutsy decisions by the screenwriters IMHO, mainly cuts and transpositions. Let's face it, without elements like Arwen's more prominent role, axing of subsidiary characters, compression of time and various simplifications, these great movies simply would never have been financed. -
Aug 29, 2003 1:03:14 PM CDT
How is it relevant if Frodo knows what/how Nazgul see or not?
by minderbinder
When he goes up toward the Nazgul, he's obviously willed to do it by the ring, whether or not he knows specifics about the nazgul seems irrelevant. What Frodo frodo does know is that when he puts the ring on, a giant eye zooms in on him and he can see the Nazgul, it's a pretty obvious assumption that whenever he puts the ring on, he's giving himself away. Also, he isn't trying to hand the ring to the Nazgul, he's trying to put it on.
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,,,how about a proper report on the upcoming ROTK trailer?
Couldn't help noticing that Harry set off an Androgen Bomb in another thread when he posted a movie preview report by peppy adult film starlet Felicia Fox (with added pr0n links, guys!) Hope he has similar plans to add some much-needed vim to this dry and erudite thread. I know we're all gagging for it: a preview report on ROTK by noted Tolkien scholar and all-round LOTR geek Tiffany "Twin" Towers! At least TTT has a legitimate connection to LOTR - correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't she cast as Luthien in Russ Meyer's planned Silmarillion project?
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Did you or did you not specifically put "morGoth" in the subject posting line? BTW, you HAVE noticed personal attacks as you pointed out to elanor. For fear of further boring other posters on this subject, can we please just drop it? I'd much rather talk about the movie.
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And I was about halfway through this damn thing, too. If the doberman thing is all you're talking about, who cares? Nobody says stuff like "I'm gonna shove a doberman up your ass" unless they think people don't want to listen to them in the first place. And in reference to the post, my very first sentence was addressed to you. The rest of it was not. That is all.
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But wouldn't the seductive power of his voice be more effective if he were played as a wise old councillor in appearance, which would help blind his victims to the fact that they are being played upon by his insinuating and undermining words? And it does seem like many people (me included) are conflicted between thinking that the movie should play by its own established rules (as to the powers of the Nazgul) and that discrepancies may be accounted for with elaborate explanations from Tolkien's backstory. The plain cinematic sense of Frodo's Nazgul encounter is that the Nazgul damn well senses the Ring and is hovering for that reason, never mind whether Frodo puts it on. Look at Weathertop, when the Nazgul merely smash aside the other hobbits to go for him, and he doesn't even reach for it until after he skitters backward. And they are a long way from Mordor.
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Not that much is going on in the pic. It's just *sniff* one of those things that *sniff* hobbit-fanciers such as myself may find of interest. 4 hobbitses looking pensively down a verdant hill at what must (methinks) be home. *sniiiiiff*
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May I remind everyone that at the end of DVD Chapter 12 - 'The Passage of the Marshes,' Gollum, while cowering under a bush (or tree if you prefer) with Frodo and Sam, cries, "They are calling for the Precious," as the Nazgul zooms overhead. This results in another of Frodo's attempts (foiled once again thanks to Sam) to put on the Ring -- something he seems compelled to do whenever the Nazgul scare the shit out of him. So based on this, the treeroot and Weathertop scenes in FotR, and Frodo v. Nazgul, I would say that not only do the Nazgul sense the Ring whenever they are near it, they also compel the Ringbearer to put the Ring on so that he would become visible to them. ***morGoth, it is this same scene at the end of Chapter 12 which I believe backs up my position re Frodo v. Nazgul. I maintain that the Nazgul did sense the Ring while patroling over the marshes and reported same back to Sauron, thus Sauron would know that the Ring was on the EAST side of the Anduin. The next close encounter is Frodo v. Nazgul, where the Ringbearer is now spotted in Osgiliath, on the WEST side of the Anduin, and in the company of those who just attacked Sauron's forces in Ithilien. It makes perfect sense to me that Sauron might think that the Ringbearer was a spy of some sort, who has scoped out everything on the East side and is now heading back to Minas Tirith to report his findings. Therefore, in this context, Frodo v. Nazgul works for me. And I'm not saying this just because "I love the scene." Also, let me add that that comment of yours really pissed me off (and that's the first time you did that in the three years I've been posting). How dare you say that I'm rationalizing my argument simply because I love the scene. I maintain that the scene works in the context of P.J.'s LotR. I understand that for you the scene doesn't work. Why can't you accept the fact that for me the scene does?
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Miami, that was quite a nice, logical thought you came up with, about Sauron mapping Frodo's progress from the Marshes back through Osgiliath - and now, if Pippin gives him a good scare (obviously, Sauron hasn't yet had a visual on Frodo - I doubt that a Nazgul could be of much help to the Dark Lord's resident sketch artist) he will think the Ring has completed its journey in Minas Tirith. Anyway, if the Nazgul can't sense the Ring even without its being worn, what is the point in sending them out as scouts? They just hope any Ringbearer in the vicinity will answer the call? A good thing they will now be clustering around Minas Tirith (though failing to sense the Ring?). ***Amazon just delivered, so I know what I am doing this evening. In fact, right now I am going to go watch those previews. Hurrah!
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Just enjoy the movie. So what if Aragorn couldn't survive the fall off the cliff? We're talking about a movie with elves that live forever. Just lose yourself in Middle Earth and enjoy the escape.
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I look forward to reading your reaction to the ROTK preview. Looks brilliant to me though I really hope it doesn't turn into a CGI videogame battle like Attack Of The Clones. ***** I'm honestly not bothered one bit by the whole Frodo+Nazgul scene. The discrepancy won't occur to the average moviegoer at all and I guarantee PJ won't think it neccessary to explain it. **** By the way, in the ROTK preview: am I right in saying that there is a brief shot of a CGI Sam running up the stairs of Minas Ithil....!? The stairs appear to be high up on the tower. Could this be Sam coming to Frodo's rescue? Looks absolutely terrific if that is indeed what it is. Any opinions?
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So far I've watched the trailers and TV promos (who knew I'd missed so many?), "Gollum's Song" (thought it was very effective), and, of course, the SEV and ROTK previews. A few observations (based on only one viewing apiece; I shall get back to it anon): The color and clarity is MUCH better on the small screen, as my sister and I noticed when we viewed TTT on Pay Per View in a hotel room a few months ago. I can just about guarantee that the theatrical TTT will begin gathering dust on my shelf as soon as I have the extended edition, as it all looks choice. (If only there was still time to leave out the reported stew incident!) Seeing these scenes in motion adds unbelievably to the power of the stills. As for the ROTK preview, I am convinced that there will be a distracting amount of weeping and wailing going on in the theatre. I darned near broke down just watching the clips.... That shot of Sam just before they quote "His will was set..." is just wonderful. Could perhaps make a nice triptych with Frodo on one side and Sam holding Frodo in the middle... If one wanted to create a very large shrine. I haven't even begun to use the freeze-frame button, so I may come back with much more.... Oh, that bit between Merry and Pippin ("you WILL see home," or whatever the line was) was right up there. Okay, back to it....
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I know what you mean about that one comment but I have a hunch that it was aimed at someone else. Definitely not you. For what it's worth.***Which reminds me, what's become of another tailender friend who used to post more often - he loved to talk about Tolkien's use of old english and of Christian themes? I am blanking on his name right now - he was always a peacemaker kind of guy.
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Good crankyranting post up there. I think you make some excellent points and in a generally ego-free way, which I admire and appreciate. One point I would argue has already been addressed by others, that I see the exorcism as a fair cinematic shortcut. Theoden's transformation back to health is, to my mind, a well-done version of a cherished film convention. Yes, such mind-control could be thought of as a power Saruman could use against other characters but only if the film implies he could do it quickly and indiscriminately. I don't think it does. It feels tome that the change in Theoden happened over many weeks or months. And Saruman had a very big assist from Grima. And as for such a power being then "logically" extended to Gandalf, well, we know Gandalf (in both color phases) has enormous hidden power that he wills himself NOT to use.***The only other point of yours that I would challenge is that as far as whether the Nazgul
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That new photo over at TORN is just marvelous. You and I are thinking alike for sure. What a journey. And doesn't poor Frodo's hand look a bit odd? Shhhhhhhhh!
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For even if it were not normally a mark of evil to override the will of another (Patricia McKillip's "The Forgotten Beasts of Eld" addresses this admirably), it is even more heinous in Tolkien's universe, where depriving another of the power of choice is consistently condemned. Tolkien's Elves hesitate even to give advice except in extremity. In fact, one might say the ultimate Evil of the Ring is precisely that its owner will inevitably use it to override the will of anyone within his power, first in small things (and even possibly with some noble end in mind, as when Sam imagines transforming Mordor into a garden) but ultimately, to a point where all other wills are enslaved. To remain moral beings, the heroes of LOTR may NOT use the weapons of the Enemy, even to defeat him - this is why they decide to destroy the Ring, rather than use it. And also, as has been stated above, Gandalf has powers that in obedience to a higher power, he is forbidden to use.
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Thanks elanor, I was ranting because niggling background issues which are swamped on first viewing in the Cinema by huge visuals, surround Dolby, big music, etc gain a little more prominence when watching TTT on a small screen in a more critical frame of mind. ******As for Gandalf and misuse of his powers, in the logic of the book the reader is told in effect that he will not act by direct force upon allies and the undecided but encourages and kindles hope. In the logic of the film, with less exposition and several scenes of him kicking major butt against opponents, particularly after he changes colour, the issue is maybe less clear cut for viewers. So seeing the "exorcism" scene again on DVD I had a bit of a WTF!! moment: ie. If Saruman can do this long-distance (sure, over a period and with local assistance from Wormtongue) what does this imply about wizards' powers? In film-logic, can or should Gandalf exert his (presumed) power of will over Denethor at a later critical time? Was the exorcism morph scene worth the complication? etc etc. In support of your distinction between Saruman and Gandalf is the fact that Saruman is a Maia of Aule the technology Vala and Gandalf is a Maia of Manwe selected for his wisdom. *********As for Ghost-fearing Elves, on first view of the RotK preview, where Aragorn and Legolas are about to enter the PotD, Aragorn looks mighty apprehensive and Legolas has the stressed look which he showed at the bridge of Khazad Dum and afterwards. So I thought, Legolas had become afraid of ghosts - unlike the approach taken in the book. However, on a closer viewing, Legolas seems to be looking at Aragorn with serious concern. Later in the preview - inside the PotD, Aragorn looks nervous but not Legolas - so I think I spoke too soon.******** DoT's point about the corrupting power of the Ring captures one of Tolkien's more important messages: Power is often first misused for what is thought to be the greater good: individual rights are overridden, temporarily, for the benefit of many, the "benefit" consisting of the compulsory reorganizing and rationalizing of human affairs to suit the pet Grand Plan of the person(s) exercising power. As others have pointed out here, in one of his letters, JRRT pointed out that Sauron was not necessarily bad in the beginning. Not sure that the filmakers have room to make that point!
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...though after the SEV preview I
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It's an Editorial. ;~) Now I wonder why what we've been calling the preview is given the on-screen title of editorial? All those comments that it will be the best of the three, perhaps? ***Question: Which cast or crew member would you like to sit next to while watching LotR:RotK? Prior to watching 'The Making of The Long And The Sort Of It,' I might have said, P.J., or Elijah, or JR-D, but now it's definitely Andy Serkis. He cracks me up. ***And a big BRAVO to Sean Astin for 'The Long And The Short Of It.' What an adorable little film!
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Jeepers mon, does this mean yer gunna kick my ass when we meet?! Awp, I wasn
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As I don
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Aug 30, 2003 10:34:07 AM CDT
The four Hobbits are looking at a dissolving Sharkey, of course!
by morgoth
Orson, I thought that scene might
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...Miami was just referring to an old joke. He wasn't trying to diss (or piss off) anybody. The poster Skyway Moaters has a trade mark "IT AIN'T A #@$!*## TRILOGY" thingy and Miami was just referring to that. Please continue with your postings and also, welcome mellon {[:^)
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Aug 30, 2003 11:20:08 AM CDT
Jeeezus H Chriiist! For about the 30 thousandth time...
by skyway moaters
...RIBBONS: It is NOT the descent that we object to. It is the illiterate blathering ad-homonym attack style of some trollers' posts that offend. When someone makes a well reasoned civilly expressed post that espouses a negative view of these LOTR adaptations we do not generally reply in a hostile manner but rather from a perspective of earnest debate. Hostility may still ensue however, usually first on the the side of the descenting opinion, and then from the side of the supporters, when we [the supporters] continue to disagree with a "descenter", even when they have repeated their argument 15000 times ad nauseum, and take umbrage that we will not acquiesce to the
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Aug 30, 2003 11:54:49 AM CDT
Talk about illiterate! AWP!... DISSENT, DISSENSION, DISSENTER ET
by skyway moaters
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MorGoth, I was thinking of Tolkien's comment (which nervous checking identifies) in Letter 153 in Sept 1954 where he said: "Sauron was not, of course, evil in origin. He was corrupted ..." JRRT spoke in more detail in letter 131 where he said: "Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy ... He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated .... beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle Earth ... he becomes a reincarnation of evil ..." and to Auden in letter 183 "[Sauron] had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well ...desiring to order all things according to his wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of Middle Earth ..."*******This was in the context of agreeing with DoT's comments about the corruptions of power and my blathering on about Tolkien's insight that despotism involves forcing everybody to follow your own pet Grand Plan for universal order.******I think Gollum's downfall is different in that it is more like a junkie going under.
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The resolution on my screen doesn
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I think what Elanor is referring to - and I see it, too - is the bit of white bandage (?) just visible at the end of the left sleeve. The hand on top looks undamaged. And Merry and Pippin should look taller.
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MorGoth, watching RotK with that Lovable Dork, Richard Taylor might involve applying a gag from time to time in order to be able to concentrate on what's happening on screen. Alan Lee, John Howe and Phillipa Boyens are way up on my list (but only if Cate B is unavailable). *****The DVD "behind the scenes" material reinforces how different things might have been if less respectful and committed people had taken on the project. When it was first rumoured, I had a waking nightmare along the following lines: "Jerry Bruckheimer and Joel Schumacher announce the film of the century, Lord of the Rings with the all-time dream cast of the century, in a 3 hour Blockbuster. Starring as Aragorn - Bruce Willis; Arwen - Salma Hayak; Gandalf - Morgan Freeman; Hobbits - Tom Cruise, Jack Black, Jason Priestley, and Danny DeVito (as Pippin); Boromir - Vin Diesel; Gimli - Robin Williams; Legolas - Justin Timberlake; Elrond - Al Pacino; Galadriel - Pamela Anderson; Celeborn - Rupert Everett; Eomer - Brad Pitt; Eowen - Drew Barrymore; Saruman - Gene Hackman; Sauron - James Gandolfini; Sauron's consort "Morgotha" - Angelina Jolie; Gollum - Steve Buscemi, Faramir - Hugh Grant; and as Frodo's father Bilbo Baggins - Michael Caine!! Music by Elton John and Bon Jovi. Adapted for the screen with a sizzling script by Joe Esterhas, which Joel Schumacher says "respectfully updates the classic Trilogy, adding contemporary edginess to the old-fashioned stuff." ******Despite Miami's points, and Elanor's warning about guessing the film logic before all the facts are in, I have to agree with your and DoT's take on the Frodo/Nazgul scene, PJ is, to put it mildly, a strongly visual director and this seems to be a case where, in DoT's words "the filmakers had a precise [wonderful] visual image in mind and were willing to sacrifice all logic to attain it." Similarly, but more subtly, Brad Dourif "oozing black ink" all over the film ;-) [Just had to see that phrase again].
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1) I thought we were going to drop this circuitous conversation. 2) If there are personal attacks, you're more than justified in getting angry at the person. You don't have to prove that to me. I didn't realize all this hullabaloo was being made, however, over some nonsense of a doberman's head and an asshole. 3) Who is this "we" that you're referring to? Just because there was a misconception about what I said doesn't mean I'm accusing all "Tail-Enders" of objecting to dissent. As a matter of fact, most of the people I would categorize as "Tail-Enders" don't, otherwise you'd all have gone crazy by now! It's just a few people who float in and out of these talkbacks, and not necessarily the same people each time. You don't have to get so touchy.
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Yeah morGy, Richard (call me Mr. Enthusiasm) Taylor would be cool, but I'm still sittin' with Serkis. ***Didn't mean to scare anyone with the preview thing. Plus, I was refering to the RotK preview/editorial, not the SEV preview. Meanwhile, anyone else notice that the "Exclusive 10-minute Behind-the-Scenes Preview of 'The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King'" (as the DVD brochure labels it) takes almost twelve and a half minutes to play? I guess the extra two and a half minutes makes it an editorial. ***I too think that's Cirith Ungol rather then Minas Morgul. ***Another quick question: which "bigature" would you like to have in the middle of your living/family room, Rivendell or Minas Tirith? ***Speaking of Rivendell, I really like the 'evacuation by latern-light' scene in T2T. ***Finally re substituting Boromir for some cringing, although it seems like there is alot of it, all that cringing really doesn't take up more than a minute or two -- certainly not enough time to develop the Faramir/Boromir/Denethor backstory. I am really looking forward to see how P.J. pulls it off though. The SEV "preview" about the re-taking of Osgiliath looks really cool. ***As are we morGy.
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friggin' typos -- me hates them all!!!!!!!!!
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morGoth, I've sure got no problem with you liking Aragorn's cliff dive since I like it myself. ***Back to PotD: I did notice that as the Three Hunters are in that narrow mountain pass leading to PotD, they are on horseback. It's only that scene where we see Aragorn walking towards the entrance, that they are on foot. Hopefully elanor is correct and they have just dismounted in order to check out the entrance, and after doing so they will then lead their horses through PotD on foot. [At least I hope so.] ***By the way, anyone notice which sword Aragorn is wearing as he walks towards the entrance to PotD? I can't tell if it's Anduril or not.
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I would love to have the Helm's Deep bigature for my model train board. Would that not be a hoot?
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I fully understand that a little goes a long way when it comes to crying and spectacularly petrified peasants, but, I guess I do not have the same amount of loathing for them that some on this list do. Why? Simply put, they tend to humanize the fact that it is their homes that are being burned and raised, their menfolk (and boyfolk)doing the dying, etc, etc. The brunt of the battle (excepting Haldir and Theodred who we don't even see die, I believe) falls on the farmers, peasants, working class, grunt soldiers. Thus showing just a bit of their suffering is fine by me, because they are the ones who suffer the most immediately of all that are onscreen. Meduseld is not burned to the ground. Even Helm's Deep will simply need a bit of repair work to the wall. If this story is about how the 'little people' get drawn into the 'big people's' wars, then we need not simply look at the hobbits to see that this is a reality. The people of Rohan and Gondor get screwed pretty royally by the actions of the big boys, a few minutes of screen time to show their anquish is hardly a bad thing.
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If I was watching ROTK with Cate Blanchett beside me, I guarantee I wouldn't be watching the movie, no matter how good it was - nor would I be keeping my hands to myself....Ah well, I too can dream. Otherwise, it would be Alan Lee - no question. He's by far the most dignified person in the interviews and I would be constantly commiserating with him over how poorly his beautiful drawings have translated into actual sets (Grant Major, I'm looking at you!) - though I'm sure Mr. Lee would be too polite to say so. ***** Through sheer boredom I've been spotting some little details put in by the animators in TTT that very likely go unnoticed - example: when Legolas picks off a Warg at long distance. The rider falls off his dead mount, tumbles a bit and then seems to be about to get up. But he is then trampled by another Warg, causing his body to roll down the hill a bit further - dead this time for sure. Quite amusing - or not - depending on how nit-picking you are. Also, when Aragorn and Legolas are doing their tag-team routine on the causeway, I noticed the CGI Aragorn continues his real-life version's tendancy to decapitate his enemies, sending both heads and helmets bouncing off the causeway. When the scene switches to a long shot of the pulley-ladders being hoisted, you can still see the two boys going at it in the distance, though you'd probably need a gigantic TV to make them out. Of course there are tons of little continuity errors with the CGI so I won't bother pointing them all out - but I was amused by one in particular. After the wall comes down and the ants - ahem! - I mean the orcs rush through, there are one or two little "MASSIVE agents" on the periphery of the thrashing crowd who are going round in circles and (bizarrely) going through their animation cycles in slow motion. There is also one of the "elves" who - for want of a better description - seems to be swallowing his own sword!***** morGoth was mentioning rationalisation of continuity arrors and the like. Well, I've got two rationalizations which I have found very useful. Question #1: Why doesn't Treebeard already know about the deforestation? He is, after all a "Shepherd Of The Forest". Answer: The deforestation has only been taking place for a few months (in the movie). When we first meet him, Treebeard is asleep. As he is thousands of years old, he probably took a little nap for a year or two and slept through all the wood-chopping. (Saruman may even have waited for him to fall asleep to begin his work). Fair enough? Question #2 (a two-parter): Why are the elves such shockingly poor fighters and what's with that silly armour? Answer: The elves have not fought a battle for three thousand years! They have no recent experience of real fighting and their armour is purely ceremonial and unsuited for combat. This is a very nice authentic touch - I recall that Tolkien wrote of the elves that they had drifted into a kind of "fanience" (French for "lethargy"). Seems perfectly plausible IMO. Their Last Alliance armour and fighting style looked the real deal, because that's when they knew the reality of battle. Whew! Improves the movie for me!
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I appreciate your point, Hildebrand. In fact, I think that in order for us, the audience, to feel any tension at all in the battle, we must identify and sympathise with these peasants. But this presents a few problems to the attentive viewer. Firstly the whole "homesteaders under seige" formula is just such a tired movie cliche that it takes a huge effort of will to become interested in them. Secondly, PJ puts in too many close-ups of his own cute kids. Now, whilst the cute kids worked perfectly in the Shire scenes, here they're out of place - simply because they don't look or act remotely frightened. They look like they are enjoying a day out on Daddy's movie set. If they looked frightened that would help a great deal. Thirdly, why are there just peasants? Where are the other strata of Rohan society? It's clear from the earlier scenes that Rohan has or at least had some wealth (Golden Hall, beautiful costumes, decorated armour, nice horses etc.). We also saw what seemed to be courtiers and "Noblemen" in the Golden Hall. Where are they now? The fact that everybody is a dirty-faced peasant just harms the credibility of this culture and the movie itself. It makes us think of these people as extras in costumes and not real people we care about. ***** By the way, I think in my last post that word should be "feniance", not "fanience" - though even then I'm not sure. It may be "feniantisme". Tolkien knew a lot of funny words.
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That should of course be Aragorn+Gimli tag-team. **** Just saw Pirates Of The Caribbean. Like all modern blockbusters it's about an hour too long. Wierd seeing Legolas in another movie. And yes, it IS Legolas. Mr Bloom's acting style consists of just two expressions: "blank" and "vacant". I wonder how some people get into movies...
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The booked off for the Hamptons. You see, being of some money, they paid off the spies and made for the shore before the nasty types could drive down the property values. Now they sit around hoping against hope that the lower classes can make sure that their investment stays solid.
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In the first place, did Tolkien ever intend that there was such a thing as a Rohirrim peasantry? HE certainly never used the word. Royal family aside, he seemed to go out of his way to present the Rohirrim as an *idealized* Nordic society of roughly equivalent members, all adept on horseback (yet the first family we meet has one horse and the kid isn't deemed old enough to ride him? In a society that worships the horse?), all tall, fair and valiant, and surely not given to cringing in moments of peril. Eowyn may take it one better, but one hates to think she is the ONLY female in Rohan that can cope without tears in times of crisis. And also, yes, the cliches.... Did they miss a single one? The ratty hair, the burlap clothes (in a society where every blessed thing is ornamented) - yet miraculously, the peasantry all have black outfits in their wardrobes merely to watch the funeral corteges of their betters, and a uniformity of reaction that makes it look like their one stage direction was to "Look frightened!" Where did Eomer's eored come from, if there are no women of equal class - and presumably some courage? You have hundreds of men able to afford the most elaborate arms and armor (a good horse in the Middle Ages was roughly equivalent to a year's income); the decoration of the hall argues a fairly large leisure class (either that, or the warriors take turns as artisans). There should be metal workers, weavers, goldsmiths, etc. (How many times does Eowyn change her clothes in two days?) The point is, as described by Tolkien, the Rohirrim are supposed to be impressive - a few notches down from Gondorians in sophistication, but with their own rich culture and a highly developed warrior mystique, and instead we get... cringing peasants. Bottom line: I just think that they went wrong in suddenly going for a kind of cliched pseudo-historical realism, which isn't really realistic (see above discrepancies - is this society rich or desperately poor?), rather than the fantasy-treated-as-reality that had sustained the films up to that point. I would have preferred (and this is personal opinion, in case I need to emphasis this) a Rohan in which the women matched the men in their ability to stand upright and look like products of a warrior race, and looked grim or stoic (not to mention useful) instead of terrified, and if this erred on the side of fantasy, so be it. It was Tolkien's concept. I also don't know why they even had to drag that whole "the defenders are too young or too old" into it. It's merely another cliche - unless the Rohirrim have been at war for years, which they haven't. (For that matter, since this is the first outbreak of war in many generations, what wars has Theoden been fighting - you know, the "many wars" that he says he has fought?) The men Eomer took with him and the ones that died at the Ford should not have depleted the entire fighting stock of Rohan. If they did, then what were those men thinking that rode north and left their homes completely undefended except by an aging royal guard? Oh, well... Fortunately, none of this should recur in ROTK, for which I am thankful. (Though it did annoy me, and I overheard comments from a few others watching the display at Comic-Con, that in the ROTK video game, the area in front of the gate at Minas Tirith has figures of look-alike women who run helplessly back and forth and do nothing but get in the way of the fighting figures. Every now and then, an orc cuts one down.)
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...the nits that are getting picked are beginning to smack of the lunatic fringe. Orson and DoT sound like a couple of pendantic purist sourpusses. Was there anything about TTT that met with your approval other than the characterization of Gollum? Give it a rest kids. We get it that you had problems with PJ's TTT, and you have made some legitmate and thoughfully observered criticisms, but by now it's sounding more and more like a broken record, and is veering nearer and nearer to absurd sour grapes bullcrap. You might as well face it: Some of us simply aren't going to agree with your displeasure no matter what you say.
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Oh, so they're all in their summer houses? Thanks for clearing that up for me, Hildebrand. ***** Well, I agree with what you're saying, DoT - However I would offer a couple of qualifications. Firstly, I can accept the possibility that the kingdom (fiefdom? realm?) of Rohan has fallen on hard times (with Theoden's enchantment, marauding, crop-burning orcs etc) and that these once prosperous artisans and cultured folk are now eaking out a living and forced to wear rags. Of course, as is usual in these circumstances, it is the lower classes who bear the brunt - the "Royal family", aristocrats and army do not really suffer. Take a look at any famine-striken country in Africa to see this dynamic in operation! People starving in their tens of thousands yet their governments can afford fabulous fighter jets and tanks.... But yes - I still wish they had spent as much time making the Rohan culture plausible as they did on the Shire. The other point you make about young boys and old men - well, this is a detail Tolkien himself wrote ("most have seen too many winters or too few" etc). But then Tolkien also had several thousand defenders at Helm's Deep. The idea to have only three hundred versus ten thousand originally came from....Ralph Bakshi. And finally - the "we have fought many wars" is straight from Tolkien too, though he puts it in the mouth of Saruman when he is speaking to Eomer from his tower - it goes something like, "but if I am a murderer than so are all the house of Eorl murderers for they have fought many wars against those who defied them, and yet afterwards have made peace - none the worse for being politic." On another point, watching the DVD has caused me to reverse one or two of my opinions on TTT. I previously felt that Merry and Pippin's performances were poor but now I have completely changed my mind. Their performances are very good - though they are occasionally let down by the script. I have not changed my mind about Legolas however. Mr Bloom is about as wooden as can be. He is no more an elf than I am.
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The only one bitching at the moment is you. You are well within your rights not to read my posts (as you clearly haven't) but if you had, you would have seen that they covered a varying range of topics from good to bad to whimsical to speculative. This is what's know as "idle discussion". It's fun. That's why we do it. But no-one's forcing you to read our musings.
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Pontsing Barset, there are many things I love about TTT - the casting/performances of Eowyn and Eomer, for one thing (and just to restrict myself to the Rohirrim). The design of Meduseld. The shot of Eomer and his troops galloping in silhouette with Theodred's body. What little we see of Theodred, for that matter. The music. And (sigh) I have posted dozens of posts of what else I like throughout the movie. What I do object to is the way anything other than praise gets slapped down (NOT debated, or even ignored) with the (again sigh) label of "purist" (not as long as the changes WORK!) or that ever-popular put-down, "bitch, bitch, bitch." (And from someone complaining about negativity! Yes, that kind of remark really takes the high road....) I still don't see why it enhances the film to portray the Rohirrim as sackcloth-wearing peasants. I am not even the one who first brought this up on this particular talkback. And this is not coming from the lunatic fringe - it is one of the most consistent criticisms made of the film, by a great many people. Bottom line, Ponsing, if you don't like what I or anyone else is saying here, you don't have to read it. Just skip over. ***But to address myself to someone who is actually discussing, and not just putting down others who discuss.... Orson, surely you aren't suggesting that Tolkien intended Rohan to be the equivalent of a third-world dictatorship, i.e., well-fed military class and starving populace? That may be what we see on screen, but what he wrote about was a sort of heroic ideal, not intended to represent any "real" society. Hence, I think the Rohirrim - men AND women -should have been portrayed in the best light possible. One of the delights of Tolkien is in seeing these various idealized societies, from the bucolic pre-Industrial hobbits to the Pre-Rafaelite elves to the high medieval/Byzantine Gondorians, all as we would wish them to be, realistic in terms of motivation and internal culture, but NOT in terms of economics or ultimate plausibility. The Rohirrim, as a people, are meant to be thrilling. I don't know a better word for it. And that is how I would like to see them portrayed. ***Fortunately, this looks likely to happen in ROTK. The charge looks wonderful. ***Watched the DVD again tonight, and that is definitely Sam going up those stairs - you can see the typically top-heavy bulge of his pack (still carrying his pans?) as he goes through the door. ***Orson, I always thought Pippin and Merry were impeccably acted. And their clips in the ROTK preview give further proof of this. ***I absolutely love the clip of Frodo climbing Mt. Doom. It captures all the despair, weight and exhaustion, not to mention the extent of his will to keep going. ***We are certainly in for a greatly altered ending to TTT, with all those shots of Frodo, Sam and Gollum amid the ruins, and the one shot which at first I took to be Shelob's cave and which I now realize is the exit to the passage from Osgiliath (before the stroll through the woods?).
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I wanna see someone swallowing his sword, but I still haven
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Well, DoT, my comparison to African dictatorships was not helpful! Of course, you are 100% right in relation to Tolkien's intentions and to what he put in his book. What I am doing here is trying to rationalize the film version so that I can enjoy the movie more. The problem is, of course that PJ's TTT doesn't stand up to logic if you think about it. You just have to accept what he's showing you and having a university education makes this difficult for me to do. (I'm not boasting btw). So I, and others, bend over backwards to try to come up with ways to bridge gaps in continuity and logic. But the average moviegoer doesn't think about any of this stuff at all and the sackcloth-wearing Rowoks don't seem to have harmed the movie's sucess. ****** Yup, isn't the charge of the Rohirrim mind-blowing?! "Ride now! Ride to ruin! And the world's ending!" shouts Theoden. Now that's the real stuff! Unashamedly heroic and glorious!***** Yeah, definitely Sam running up the stairs, identified thanks to that backpack. Lovely shot by the way. As is the close-up of Frodo crawling. Hopefully, these movies are back on track. **** BTW DoT, did you enjoy Shippey's book, "Author Of The Century"?**** Okay Xyzan, the cannonball orc is very tricky to spot on the DVD version - he was much clearer on the big screen. It's when the ents are flooding Isengard, there's a shot of a gaping hole in the foreground with approaching water and fleeing orcs coming towards the viewer. The orcs of course, are tiny. One of them, towards the middle of the picture, takes a gigantic leap and dives off the edge in "Jackass" fashion. Unfortunately, this is very hard to make out on the small screen. Similarly, for the "sword-swallowing" elf: it's very difficult to make out exactly what he's getting up to. He is part of the Aragorn-led charge to rescue Gimli. Instead of charging with the others, he hangs back and seems to get into difficulties, sort of spinning on the spot and flailing about with his sword. Yes, I have a lot of free time on my hands!
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Xyzan, just to expand on Orson's answer, cannonball run occurs just after the burning Ent sticks his head in the oncoming torrent. Then you will see several Orcs on the right side of your screen leap into one of Isengard's caverns just ahead of the flood. The last one to do so tucks his knees up in a classic cannonball pose. [On my disc this occurs at 1:62:08.] In fact, the Haradrian judge gave it a 9.6!
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As you can see, the only requirement for being a Tailender is just, well, hanging around
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First of all, morGoth, and this post is about you, YOU'RE the one who came up with the phrase facist bully. In fact, I've only used it once, and jokingly. If I have to hear your claims that I'm waging a war against talkbackers so designated again I'm gonna scream. I'm not. Each subsequent post after my response to OrionsAngel was an elaboration of my stance on the matter, I don't continually wage war on anyone (if anything all I did was fire a warning shot and explain why I did it), not to mention that part of the reason I had to keep backtracking was because I misunderstood what he was worked up about in the first place, and I was trying to keep the peace. I've moved past that a long time ago, but I'd rather that you stopped spreading unqualified assessments about my "obdurate agenda," okay? Oh yeah, and how exactly have you been trying to teach this pig to sing, hmmm? If anything, I've been accomodating you.
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And any excuse to drag out
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And I certainly agree about the misconception part. Hmmm
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there was a co-axial TB for the FOTR: SEV. It too occurred in a time of few and far between LOTR Tb's. I wish these trolls who like to claim that this site is LOTR-centric, would point out these tb's to me, cause there sure ain't many that I've seen these days. The 'posters' tb notwithstanding, and that hardly counts as it only came out days if not weeks after every other Internet site in the world had run that story... I'd like to find that tb, however given that just about every post I've ever done at AICN has been deleted along with most everyone elses I'd be interested in, it may be a moot point... As to Pontsing Barset, that was a trifle strident on poor old DOT and Orson back there wasn't it old chap? I know your (self -appointed) job around here is say what you think without consideration to niceties or political correctness of any kind, but it seemed a little harsh... If I could have ANYONE from LOTR to sit next to during ROTK, I'm afraid as a (relatively) young male, I'd have to go with the obvious choice and grab a seat betwixt Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett, with Miranda Otto positioned suitably in front of me... Rose Cotton could float around somewhere as well... I too have problems with TTT and its at times ill-logic, however I'm happy with the movie, now even i I could still wish for some changes, the purist within me ever lurkes just beneath the surface!!! Right that's about it for now. I await the TATOW laden response from Barset. Cheers.
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Xyzan, I meant that this occurs at 162:08, not 1:62:08. There is, obviously, no such thing as 1 hour, sixty-two minutes, eight seconds. 162:08 is 162 minutes, eight seconds, or 2 hours, 42 minutes, eight seconds, which how I wish my DVD player counted. Why the hell I should have to divide the minute count by sixty to figure out how many hours? At 59:59 the counter should next go to 1:00:00, not 60:00 (likewise 119:59 should be 1:59:59, then 2:00:00, and not 120:00.). Poor human/machine interface, imo.
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Will try once more to spot cannonballing orc, now that it's narrowed down (and I can freeze-frame).... Thanks for the hints, guys! My utter inability to spot the guy in more than a dozen viewings has been frustrating me. Also, will try to find the sword-swallowing Elf. ***Orson, I loved Shippey's book! Also, I'm sure you can see the discrepancy between Tolkien's Saruman pointing out that the House of Eorl has fought "many battles" and PJ's Theoden claiming them for himself. (Theoden seems to get more than his share of bad or inconsistent lines.) ***My votes for who I'd like to watch ROTK with would go to Elijah Wood or Philippa Boyens - preferably both together. I think they would make a nice balance.
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Awp! Yer right as rain Conan m
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Cate Blanchett, but I would want her to simply read everyone's lines and the narration, so all sound but the music would have to be turned down. I know some gripe about the bit in the middle of TTT wherein Galadriel and Elrond have their chat, but anytime they want to give Cate an opportunity to wax poetic is a good thing. Her voice alone is worth the price of admission. I am hoping for some kind of wrap up narration at the end of Return of the King just so that we get to hear her again.
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Because he seems like the most interesting one whose presence I wouldn't be intimidated by.
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That wasn't a joke either. Interesting is subjective, and he seems like more of a good time than the other three hobbits. Ian McKellen, Viggo Mortensen, Cate Blanchett, Peter Jackson, and Alan and maybe Christopher Lee all seem fascinating as well, IMO, but I wouldn't know what to say. Oh yeah, and I'm sure Richard Taylor is intersting as well, but he kind of freaks me out.
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MorGy, I never questioned that the orcs were burning as they went (and I love the long distance view of their devastation, with the smoke rising), but your own quote makes my point a bit. "This was a rich vale and had many homesteads." (And trees.) OK, the trees are a minor point. And rich can have many interpretations, though it would suggest to me a bit more prosperity than what we saw on screen. Homesteads certainly suggests scattered farms, not villages, which is more in keeping with the idea of the Rohirrim having one central town (Edoras) but otherwise living independently and scattered - perhaps more densely in "rich vales" than elsewhere, but still as self-respecting horse-owning homesteaders and not downtrodden peasantry. And it takes some days to assemble the cavalry because they all have to answer the call from these scattered homesteads. (Hence, Theoden can ride with many more men, with a few days to assemble them, than he could summon to defend Helm's Deep.) As for economic consistency, neither Tolkien nor Jackson has given us a clue to what these people live on. (It is remarkable that Middle Earth has so much leather in evidence, and absolutely no cattle, except for a couple of milk cows in Hobbiton.) Since these are noble people, they do not live by raiding others. They must be getting a good price for the horses....
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that the reason that there were so few Rohirrim at Helm's Deep was that they were all galavanting around the country with Eomer. It took Gandalf five days to round them all up, but there sure was a bunch of them riding down that preposterously steep (but who cares) slope at dawn of the fifth day. It's almost as if the ENTIRE Rohan calvary followed Eomer after he was banished by Grima. Hopefully the SEV will clear this up.
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Hmm, quite a few interesting points about Rohan society, infrastructure, political history etc. What bothers me most is Rohan vegetation: I just don
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The word I was looking for was "feniantisme" - if anyone was reading my post of a while ago (with an accent over the "e"). Tolkien said that the elves had fallen prey to a kind of "feniantisme" - a lethargy. Which to my mind perfectly explains why they were unable to fight at Helm's Deep and why their armour was purely ceremonial. They had not had real combat experience for thousands of years and were therefore woefully unprepared for the hand-to-hand with the Uruk-hai. I really like that idea - it fits in with their drifting away from Middle Earth too (patting myself on back). But I can't remember where I read this - I know Tolkien wrote it in a letter to some-one and I probably saw the excerpt on theonering.com. Can anyone help? I hand this one over to the Tolkien scholars here: morGoth and DoT.....? Similarly, I think that Tolkien mentions in the book that the Ents are gradually "falling asleep" and becoming tree-ish, that is, before Merry and Pippin arrive to give them a wake-up call. Again, this explains why Treebeard didn't spot the orcs destroying the forest - he slept through the whole thing. He is fast asleep when we first meet him in both movie and book.****** Sabster: the vegetation may indeed be green for all we know - it's just that the film-makers have adopted a muted palette and desaturated the greens to give it that washed-out look. ***** re: Miami - Yeah, one of the reactions I hear from people watching TTT for the first time is "Hey! Eomer didn't have THAT many horsemen!" during the cavalry charge. It's annoying because it distracts them from enjoying a visually spectacular sequence. ***** Bladerunnerunit: er, with all repect I would gladly queue for two hours NOT to watch one of the latest Star Wars videogames - whoops! - I mean, movies.
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I wonder if the condition of the working class (if we don't want to admit to a peasantry, or if Tolkien did not want to include one for the sake of an idealized pre-industrial society) cannot be attributed to the activity of the orcs and then wildmen. I think we are clearly not seeing the folks of Rohan at their best, and therefore are in somewhat dicey territory trying to say much about their economy or society based on what we see in the movie. We simply do not have enough information. Those who do, those who have read the books, etc, are probably in the minority of folks who saw the film, and thus Jackson showed the salt of the earth looking fairly shell-shocked. It makes sense cinematically, even if it is not as satisfying to those who know a bit more.
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Am I the only one that thinks Theoden's (film) stragety was a good idea? If I were reduced to 300 fairly able bodied fighters, I'd want to find the nearest impenetrable fortress as well (since Dunharrow apparently doesn't exist in PJ's version). His only questionable action was not sending out messengers to try to get Eomer back, and of course Gandalf fulfilled that need admirably. Also, Theoden (when confronted by Aragorn) asks "Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell." The Westfold falling to Saruman's forces is well established in the book, and was one of the reasons why Theoden took so many soldiers to HD (alas, poor non-existent Erkenbrand and the Helmingas). Eomer's (film) company does seem rather small at the beginning and large at the end. One (ie me) assume's he's been obviating the need for the Muster of Rohan quietly off screen as Gandalf's been looking for him. //// Oh, whomever it was who said that Theoden said that line in the RotK preview, y'know the one about the world's ending? That's Eomer's line, and we've already thrashed it out that Eomer gets to say it. AND, all that stuff about football stadiums full of folk shouting "DEATH!" and that fantastic maniacal look on K.Urban's face in the preview seem to substantiate our theory. God help me, but I adore that look on Eomer's face as he charges. Just wondering (hoping) he gets to do that sword tossing thing when he realizes that the corsairs _ain't_ (assuming that there are corsairs. Oh please let there be corsairs!).//// I had a moment this morning. I started up the TTT soundtrack, and suddenly realized that I didn't have to try to replay the scenes in my head. I could just go and watch 'em if'n I wanted. It was a good moment. *sheds a tear*
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I agree with you that Theoden's plan in the movie was the best option. I completely fail to understand why Gandalf was telling him to meet the Uruks head-on. Meet them with what exactly? Gimli also says they should "stand and fight!". Well, you would expect that from him, wouldn't you? That's his answer to everything! But the fact remains that if they had followed Gandalf's advice, they would have been massacred in about five minutes. So full credit to Theoden for trusting his own judgement.
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I'm pretty sure that the Lord of the Rings will be bookended by Cate Blanchett's (or Galadriels', if you will) narration. If I recall, Jackson and Walsh made a comment about her speaking at the end of 'Return of the King' in the commentary from Fellowship's EE.
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... it was a rhetorical question, Duh?. I did read your posts Orson, and duly noted the glee with which you point out increasingly miniscule "negative" observations about this admittedly imperfect film. *** Is the glass half empty or half full? *** Have fun gnawing on the nits that you pick, Orson, DoT. Enjoy your sift through the small bones. Far be it from me to piss on someone else
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I like that one, BladerunnerUnit - though I would have expected Gandalf to have a rough idea of the size of Saruman's army, having peeked at it from the top of Orthanc. **** Yes, Theoden's last desperate charge is my favorite part of the movie. Pure Tolkien, visually amazing and very moving too. I love the way they carry their horsey banner at moments like this - They're really affirming their identity as Rohirrim - even to the death. And they still have their boots on of course. ***** With regards to the elves at Helm's Deep - the fact that they have turned up untrained (and overdressed!)is where I derive tension and pathos from this battle. Not from the cowering peasants, that's for sure. No, it's the idea that the elves have been led like lambs to the slaughter. I notice that we don't see any of them alive at the end of the battle. They have literally been sacrificed to save the people of Rohan - when they could have easily sailed away to the Undying Lands. Now THAT is something I can sympathise with. To use a WWI reference - it's like when the Australians arrived at Galipoli and where fed to the cannons wholesale - to draw dire away from the British forces. ***** Ii's not as bad as you think - I don't think you'll find too many people knocking TTT on this talkback - the majority are people who love it, imperfections and all - though you'll get a couple of characters like myself and DoT who will grumble over certain issues.
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Whether you regard him as ignorant or well-informed, his strategy was the only conceivable one, and I cannot decide if it is supposed to be ironic that Gandalf and Aragorn are so disturbed about it. Gandalf certainly knows about Saruman breeding orcs at a fast clip. The idea that Theoden and his household guard should just "ride out and meet them" or that he is "leading them into a trap" at Helm's Deep (as opposed to what? being completely surrounded and massacred in the open?) doesn't hold up for two seconds. Theoden did the right thing. And considering the distances quoted in the film, the only person who COULD have reached Eomer in time was Gandalf, and that's assuming he almost beamed north to find Eomer. I doubt if Eomer's troop could have even completed a one-way trip in the time allowed. Theoden, at any rate, is not to be faulted for emptying the city. As for the condition of the populace being the result of orcish depradations, how long has this been going on? I thought the orc raids just began, which is why the Rohirrim are so ill-prepared. To say their poverty is the result of orcs would be like saying that the Nazis should have found the Dutch in rags just after the Blitzkrieg. ***Ponsing Barset, you are such a hypocrite. "Far be it from me to piss on someone else
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Many thanks, that is good to know. Something about husky altos that I really enjoy. During the Seattle Opera's production of the Wagner Ring cycle, the alto who sang Erda (Nancy Maltsby) absolutely stole the show even though she has very few lines. But her voice...I digress, but its a good disgression. Nonetheless, hearing Cate at the end will be right and proper.
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Hee hee, I like that turn of phrase and had to write it for myself. Had another look at the "sword-swallowing elf" (yes, I've a lot of free time this week-end!) and have realised his animation cycle is actually running backwards. So instead of drawing his sword, turning around and charging, he runs away backwards, twirls around and seems to stick his sword into himself. ***** Re: logic problems. The filmmakers are laying down tracks as a train rolls up behind them, so the cracks have begun to show in TTT. Hopefully this will be better in ROTK. ***** BladerunnerUnit, interesting info on WWI tactics in LOTR. Well, a lot of people do consider Sam to be the hero of the book - he certainly makes a "hero's journey" from simple gardner to Shelob-slaying warrior and (part-time) ring-bearer. There are tons of great insights in Tom Shippey's book, "Tolkien, Author Of The Century", if you ever get the chance to look at it. So where does Frodo stand? Well, I guess he's a kind of scapegoat or martyr. Obviously he would never have made it without help from Sam and Gollum. You're right that in the movies it isn't stated that Frodo is Sam's employer. I wonder what non-readers make of Sam calling him "Mr Frodo" all the time...?
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... and concocting a rag and bone buffet from tidbits observed through a jeweler
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... and concocting a rag and bone buffet from tidbits observed through a jeweler
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I think film Sam is clearly of a different social class. They did a good job with his accent and his costuming. Also, he does actually up and explicate it in TTT with one of my favorite added lines: Faramir: "His bodyguard?" Sam: "His gardener." Actually, I find film Sam rather snippier and more savvy than book Sam. Book Sam has a lot of practical common sense, but he's lacking a bit in the 'vision' area, which is where Frodo comes in. Frodo is closer to understanding the "Wise" than Sam is. I'm not sure that comes through as well in the film, what with reducing his heroism (falling down instead of confronting the Witchking at Weathertop, and the more obvious thrall of the ring, which was rather more subterranian in the book). //// I've been pondering the scene with Frodo and Faramir (so often dubbed unFaramir, _poor_ Faramir!), when Faramir says that 'show his quality' line. Frodo shoves the sword away, grabs the ring and runs panting into the corner (the continuity error bothers me every time). How much of that is "you shan't have my Precious!" and how much of that is "oh, no! another Boromir!" I ask? And, as I recall from the book, the ring abandons bearers with impunity, leaving them desiring it forever (Bilbo and Sam being the only ones to ever willingly give it up). Add that to the film's wrinkle that Faramir wants it (not for himself, granted, and he never does actually attempt to claim it for his own which is why I can forgive PJ). So, I'm figuring EW's Frodo at that moment is feeling the ring seducing Faramir, feeling his personal desire for the ring unreinforced by the ring (since the ring apparently wants to go with Faramir; we know this 'cause Galadriel says so!?!), and feeling the desperate need to prevent his task from failure which is, of course, aided by his own personal desire for the ring. The thing that kills me is that I can see ALL of that in the scene. So, I chime in with others who have said it before. The collective of voting industry professional had better give EW a boatload of awards for RotK. //// Oh, and that which I forgot to say. Much as I've said that the book is a bildungsroman (and it is), one of the beautiful things about it is that no single action can really be said to begin or end anything. It's like the speech Sam gives in the book (which I resented in truncated form in the film) when he comments that well, bless him if they aren't still in the story of Beren and Luthien and the Silmarils; that the stories don't end when people fall into or out of them, but just keep going. For example, Smeagol shows that he may be redeemable, but Sam and Faramir's actions push Gollum to the fore. That isn't to say that if Sam and Faramir hadn't done what they did, that Gollum wouldn't have betrayed them. But it can't be denied (and I'm talking book now) that Sam's distrust brings out the worst in Gollum. Yet, without Sam, the quest would have failed for any number of other reasons. Everything is interconnected too closely to remove one thread and say "this is how everything could have been made simpler." And that, methinks, is why LotR is so great and effective, and why it feels so truthful, outside of the mythic archetypes which feel true for an entirely different reason. //// Oh, and lest I forget. I understand the purpose of the elves at Helm's Deep. The elves of the film are portrayed as a fading race; Aragorn's "... all that is left of her kin" clearly implies this, as does Elrond's comments in FotR. Also, Theoden's distrust needs to be overcome (so it makes sense that he would later go to the aid of Gondor, "summoned" was the term used in the preview, mightn't we get the Red Arrow???) and how better than with a bunch of elves to die on the ramparts. Anyway, what I wish everyone to remember from the books (which _is_ a different continuum, I know) is that Lothlorien repelled 3 attacks during the same time that all this stuff was happening to "the world of men." The Kingdom Under the Mountain was also in trouble (remember why there were dwarves at the council?). Reference Gimli and Legolas' byplay when the rangers and Elrond's sons meet up with them. It would have done no good to wish for companies of elves or dwarves, for their lands were already under siege. //// Good heavens, how long is this?! I'd better stop now. But let me know what y'all think!
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or an attempt to, anyway! Frodo's Hand in the Four Fine Hobbits Foto: DoT was very close but what I really meant was that it looks to me that Elijah is deliberatedly covering his right hand with his left. Hee hee. God I love that shot!***Blade Runner Unit: The Sam/Frodo class discrepancy: We know Frodo is Sam's employer when Sam says to Faramir that he's "his gardener".
The rest of their class difference stuff is (to me) understandably minimized because modern audiences would REALLY not get it!***Naughty Orson, forgot your SPOILER WARNING (heh heh). Yet, Sam doesn't slay Shelob anyway, only wounds her enough to give him time to say a proper goodbye to Frodo.***DoT: does the label "hypocrite" righfully apply to someone making a sarcastic/ironic comment? That's what I think Pontsing was up to with that line. Of course I could be wrong.***Ribbons: I think it's time to move forward and put the past behind us, but...for what it's worth, I, too, felt unjustly included when you used the term "tailenders" . And it was definitely never just about the doberman line. But, onward.
***Blade Runner Unit: Not 32 more minutes but 47 MORE minutes OF T2T GOODNESS!***Two for Miami:
First, I could not figure what the heck you meant by calling it an "editorial". Then I saw the onscreen label. But don't you think that was meant for just the PJ intro and outro of the preview segment (an inside joke since he is in the editing room?). The menu labels it
"preview". Or were you just joking?????? If so, please ignore this! As for who I want to sit next to, I was gonna say Richard Taylor but MorG said it first. Then I was gonna say Elijah but DoT said that first. Viggo has been taken too (can I sit on his other side, please?) So I shall raise my hand and claim Ian McKellen!***And speaking of Gandalf - I have just realized with all the talk of Rohan and Eomer and Where are the Horses and the Riders, what the heck was film-Gandalf doing for those five days? Looking for Eomer? Gathering other riders? We know what he does in the book - do we think he was doing that, too? If this has been debated already, well I confess I missed it.***Welcome new tailenders! Glad to have you all! -
Djinnj! I think we posted at the same moment and warped the space/time continuum of cyberspace! My post is about 2/3 down and yours is out of order, closer to the bottom, though. Anyway, beautiful post. I fully agree with nearly all of it (I'm not that bothered by Sam's speech and I bet it will play differently in the SEV). I would only add that Tolkien's ideas of how things are connected and how
"the story goes on" as the players fall in and out, is not very "Catholic" of him, despite his devout faith, which makes me appreciate him all the more. -
Bladerunner: As far as I can recall, there are only a few small hints in the movie that Sam is Frodo's gardener (perhaps only in the FotR SEV, where Sam is shown working in a garden). The movie doesn't also doesn't make it clear that Sam is much younger than Frodo. They are 35 and and 50 respectively in the book. Casting Sean Astin, who is considerably older than Elijah Wood, as Sam further hides this additional reason that Sam is deferential to Frodo. Unlike many others of the "officer class" in WWI (aristocrats, professional soldiers and men with university degrees) Tolkien, who greatly admired the personal qualities and commonsense of the working class "batmen" assigned to him during his war service, and apparently based Sam on some of them, made it clear that he did not think of such men as inferiors. However, England was a particularly class ridden society at that time and until well after WWII. In Tolkien's world a polite uneducated person would speak with deference to an older, educated person. ****Hildebrand, I was fortunate enough to see Cate B and Hugo W. in a theatre production about 10 years ago when they were both up-and-coming stage actors. Cate had a remarkable voice and stage presence even then. Hugo wasn't too shabby either!
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Talkback software glitch...
Bladerunner: As far as I can recall, there are only a few small hints in the movie that Sam is Frodo's gardener (perhaps only in the FotR SEV, where Sam is shown working in the garden). The movie doesn't also doesn't make it clear that Sam is much younger than Frodo. They're 35 and 50 respectively in the book. Casting Sean Astin, who is considerably older than Elijah Wood, further obscures this additional reason that Sam is deferential to Frodo. Unlike some others of the "officer class" in WWI (aristocrats, professional soldiers and men with university degrees) Tolkien, who greatly admired the personal qualities and commonsense of the working class "batmen" assigned to him during his war service, and apparently based Sam on some of them, made it clear he did not think of such men as inferiors. However, England was a particularly class ridden society at that time and until well after WWII. In Tolkien's world, a polite uneducated person would speak with deference to an older, educated person. ****Hildebrand, I was fortunate enough to see Cate B and Hugo W. in a theatre production about 10 years ago when they were both up-and-coming stage actors. Cate had a remarkable voice and stage presence even then. Hugo wasn't too shabby either! -
This not only goes for the English version. In the Danish translation of the book, which I guess must be from the fifties or sixties, the difference in class is clearly indicated by Sam
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Something else struck me while watching this, my apologies if it's already been commented upon. Just as Galadriel starts FOTR with "The World is changing...", so Saruman has a "The World is changing..." speech as well, but it's about five minutes in. My guess is that it was originally at the start of the film but they shifted it for Gandalf and the Balrog. Not to knock the editorial choices but I think it would have been a nice touch, which could set up Gandalf (ore even Aragorn) to do the speech in ROTK. Just an observation. I'm not a virgin by the way ;-)
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Good grief Orson, where did you ever come up with a theory like that? It's 70,000 Ent strides from Wellinghall to where Treebeard first encountered Merry and Pippin. Do you mean to tell me that Treebeard was sleepwalking? And as for the Elves, are you forgetting that they're immortal? Not only have they been fighting skirmishes along the border of Lothlorien in the present, most of them fought in the battles and wars of the past.
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Well, Miami - not being a Tolkien scholar, I don't know how many (if any) battles the elves fought between the Last Alliance and TTT. However, I am simply going on (1) what Tolkien himself said in a letter, (2) what he actually wrote in LOTR and (3) what PJ has put in the movie version. Even in the movie, the elves are in "the autumn of their time in Middle Earth" (quoting from PJ's DVD commentary). As far as we know from the movies, the last time they really had to fight was in the Last Alliance. It stands to reason that with their decline and drift into lethargy (quoting from Tolkien himself) that they have lost the ability to fight effectively. This is completely borne out by the movie. Firstly, Aragorn has to constantly spoonfeed them on the most elementary aspects of fighting ("Draw your swords!", "prepare to fire! etc.") When the orcs break through the wall, you can see the elves standing there helplessly, not knowing what to do - until Aragorn tells them to fire arrows and then charge. In addition, in virtually every shot of elves fighting, you can see that they simply cannot defend themselves at all - and don't have the first idea about swordmanship. The Uruks slice through them like butter. The elves are literally cannon fodder. You can check this yourself - keep an eye out especially for the elves in the background of shots - they are completely overpowered. As far as we are shown, none of the elves survive the battle. And I find this extremely sad and poignant. So, I believe, does PJ - that lingering sequence of Haldir's death and piles of Elf corpses played with very sad music - it's all about the sacrifice these elves have made. I am not the first to comment on this - Harry Knowles said the same thing in his review of TTT. So I'm not making this up. It's all there on the screen and in the book.
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Well, my idea here is to address the question - raised by many people - as to why Treebeard, the "Shepherd Of The Forest" was completely unaware of the deforestation. To me, the answer seems obvious: when we first see him, he is asleep. As Treebeard is thousands of years old, and as the Ents are generally falling asleep anyway (quoting Tolkien), I am suggesting that one day, whilst walking in his woods, Treebeard decided to have a little nap and it lasted a year or two - until Merry and Pippin woke him up. So he simply slept through the tree-chopping. I can't see what's so far-fetched about that, I really can't.
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If you're still reading this, I think that Sean Astin's performance is more worthy of Oscar recognition than Elijah Wood. I wrote a long paragraph explaining why that just got wiped out when I tried to post as "Rribbons," so I'm too fatigued to try again. If you're interested I'll write in, but I half suspect you're not even here anymore.
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Whoa! Thanks for that, BladerunnerUnit. You have taken my point and improved on it. We're both saying the same thing though you are much better informed than I am! I totally accept that when it comes to defending their woodland realm, the Elves are highly skilled at shooting people at long-distance before they even know what's hit them. Archery is a skill that can be practised and perfected without having to go to battle. On the other hand, the brutality of hand-to-hand fighting is learnt only through hard experience. At Helm's Deep, the Elves are completely out of their element and are pitifully unable to defend themselves. The Mirkwood Elves, on the other hand, always seemed much hardier - surrounded by giant spiders, trolls and the like, and would then be much better fighters - as we can see in the case of Legolas who completely outclasses all the other Elves put together (they seem to be from Rivendell and/or Lothlorien). **** To get back to your earlier point - Yes, LOTR would seem to be very informed by the Catholic narrative - the whole idea of the "scapegoat", who in Catholicism, is some-one who takes all the heat so that everyone else doesn't have to. Very similar to Frodo having to give up the Shire so that others can enjoy it. Should be a heart-breaking moment in ROTK - as long as they don't over-egg the schmaltz factor.
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I think the SEV will shed more light on what Treebeard knew and when he knew it. Plus, Treebeard says some Ents are getting sleepy
but he also says some trees are waking up and getting "entish"
(and that some of them have bad hearts) plus he is talking about things that have been happening slowly over the last many centuries, not the last few weeks
or days.***also for Orson: I think Aragorn yells "release arrows" etc. as military commands
to his soldiers, who are trained to follow commands from a leader.
I'm pretty sure that is common practice in armies everywhere. And other than the spinning CG elf Orson has found at the corner
of his screen I don't know of a single elf that backs up Orson's idea that they no longer know how
to fight, whether due to lethargy, that lovely french word, or the perhaps archaic style of their elegant outfits. And don't you think your wacky
elf is as much a programmer's in-joke as the cannonballing orc? -
Sep 01, 2003 2:00:03 PM CDT
Damn Harry's Talkback Software.... Damn Harry's Talkback Softwa
by irritable
... Elanor and I got dumped into yesterday's old posts. ******Orson#1, the Uruks seemed to have been based underground at Orthanc both in the film and the book. Not sure if Gandalf would necessarily have seen them. Anyway, weren't most of them born/hatched/extruded about the time he was rescued and for some months afterwards? (making them, as I grumbled earlier, only about 6 months old at the battle of Helm's Deep - in the movie). In letters, Tolkien described Sam as "the major hero" of the book. Not sure why, there was some strong competition. Part of the reason for Sam's deference to Frodo is that he was 35 and uneducated, whereas Frodo was not only his employer, he was 15 years older and (by Hobbit standards) an educated person****** DoT: I got the impression that Aragorn and Gandalf (erroneously?) thought Theoden was proposing to be unduly conservative and passive (avoiding "open war" when in fact open war had commenced.) As things turned out, and as you point out, Theoden's conservative strategy was fully justified. In the movie, there was no indication that any of the allies had any concept of the size of the Uruk army until Aragorn stumbled upon them. ******Bladerunner: I think you'll find that Uruks are bred from Orcs and men. Tolkien used the words "goblin" and "orc" to signify the same creatures - who were thought to be descended from Elves twisted and corrupted by Morgoth in ancient times. The differences between the various clans of Elves are explained in detail in the Silmarillion. The Elves of Lothlorien were, from memory, Sindarin Elves from Doriath (who fought Morgoth in the first age under Thingol Greycloak and who may be assumed to be experienced fighters) and woodland elves. The tallest elves were those who returned from the West, including, in particular, Galadriel, possibly THE tallest person in middle earth besides Sauron and the odd balrog. Tolkien had some doubt about whether Celeborn was a Telerin elf who had lived in the West, or a Sindarin Elf from the court of Thingol. His original name, wisely abandoned by Tolkien, was Teleporno. I think you'll find, with a bit of digging, that Arwen was born in the year 241 of the Third Age, making her about 2,778 years old at the time of the climax of LotR - and a terrible cradlesnatcher, hitting on some buff young 87 year old chap. The implication in the Silmarillion and other places is that there are few young elves left in Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age, at least in Lindon and Lothlorien. They live as long as the earth survives - so they're not quite immortal. *******The "fading" of the Elves was a somewhat mysterious concept: Tolkien said that after the end of the First Age, the Elves of Middle Earth wanted to have the best of both worlds - to enjoy the peace and bliss some of them had experienced in Valinor, but also to retain their prestigious status in Middle Earth rather than being at the bottom of the hierarchy in Valinor. They became obsessed with "fading" which was their perception of the destructiveness of Time in Middle Earth. They also became sad, their art became "antiquarian" and their efforts " a kind of embalming" They still aspired to greatness and this is what led some of them to be tricked by Sauron into the making of the Rings of Power during the Second Age. As for the last great leaders of the Elves, Elrond HalfElven is about one third mortal, which is presumably why he did not succeed Gil Galad as Elf King in Middle Earth. Cirdan, the leader of the Elves of Lindon, who is seen in the Prologue, is one of the more important Elves of Middle Earth, but very little detail is given about him.
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At the risk of tediously repeating something mis-posted earlier today, I was fortunate enough to see Cate B and Hugo W. in a theatre production about 10 years ago in Sydney when they were both up-and-coming stage actors. Cate had a remarkable voice and stage presence even then. Hugo wasn't too shabby either!
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Sep 01, 2003 2:36:06 PM CDT
There was only one Celeborn, but Tolkien couldn't make up his mi
by irritable
Bladerunner, you might enjoy "Unfinished Tales" which has a fascinating chapter on the History of Galadriel and Celeborn. Christopher Tolkien shows the changes to their story, which his father continued to speculate about weeks before his death. JRRT became strongly of the view that Galadriel was fundamentally opposed to her half-uncle Feanor and this presumably extended to his sons, including Celegorm - (a Noldo BTW).
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The nick describes the effect that a rather obnoxious poster had on me a little while back -which induced me to delurk after years of reading the Tailenders.
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OK, I have just watched the warg attack/cliff dive scene, and I'd like to make two observations: 1) Aragorn was not wearing armor, he was wearing his travel clothing. Thus he would not be dragged down by his armor when floating in the river. 2) When he was being dragged by the warg, Aragorn makes two moves which occur off-screen, below the bottom of it. The second move Aragorn makes is to draw his knife which he then uses to stab the orc. Can we not safely assume that just before he draws the knife, he sheaths his sword? I know it happens fast, but Aragorn is not your "average swordsman." ;~)
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Be sure and read elanor, irritable and djinnj's post further up. ** elanor-lass, I ditched Richard Taylor (I know,I know...fickle Vala!) in favor of Miranda Otto (surely yo understand!) so you can have him along with Ian.
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I thought the Elves were slicing and dicing with a fair amount of aplomb atop the wall; if anything, it was the absence of killer archery (compared to what we had seen from Legolas in FOTR) that was a bit puzzling. Maybe they just hadn't brought enough arrows and didn't want to run out in the first five minutes. (Add that bad planning to the defenders not having boiling water atop the walls.) All in all, I still thought Haldir's death (with that pile of dead Elves behind him) was one of the single most moving images in the film, and the first one that made me cry. (Actually, the Elves arrival got me a bit misty: their in-the-nick-of-time arrival, and military precision, and general panache, and everyone so terribly grateful. And Haldir being forced to hug grubby Aragorn or hurt his feelings....) ***Well, Sam's a hero and Frodo's a hero, and neither one of them could have completed the quest without the other (not to mention their various acts of mercy or nastiness toward Gollum). Will we see that fatal, unthinking lashing out by Sam? I do hope so.... No lack of will on the part of Frodo, anyway, as that clip from ROTK more than illustrates. I have said it is Frodo's will and Sam's love that get them to the Crack of Doom, but it could equally be said that it's Frodo's love for the Shire, and Sam's unbreakable will.... Once Frodo crosses the Anduin, I don't think there's ever a point where he wavers, unless you count the few seconds of resting in Sam's arms in the Tower (and I don't). And to all of the agonies that both are enduring, Frodo has an additional bout of physical and emotional torture (in the Tower) as well as the Ring. And, he VOLUNTEERED at the Council, and tried to go it alone without Sam. So martyr he may be, but hardly a passive one. ***My own dream is to see Elijah and Sean both up on the stage, waving gold statuettes and hugging like mad hobbits.
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OK, I just sent the following poll question to TORn. It'll be interesting to see if they use it. Thanks for all your responses. [P.S. Sitting 'next' to someone was too limiting, so I changed it to sitting 'between' -- this way I was able to use twice as many names.] ***Q: Whom do you dream of sitting between at the LotR:RotK premiere in Wellington, N.Z.? 1) Peter Jackson & Barrie Osborne; 2) Fran Walsh & Philippa Boyens; 3) Elijah Wood & Sean Astin; 4) Dominic Monaghan & Billy Boyd; 5) Ian McKellen & Christopher Lee; 6) Viggo Mortensen & Liv Tyler; 7) Orlando Bloom & John Rhys-Davies; 8) Miranda Otto & David Wenham; 9) Bernard Hill & John Noble; 10) Cate Blanchett & Hugo Weaving; 11) Richard Taylor & Jim Rygiel; 12) Nglia Dickson & Grant Major; 13) Andrew Lesnie & Howard Shore; 14) John Howe & Alan Lee; 15) Andy Serkis (Gollum) & Andy Serkis (Smeagol).
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Well, full credit to morGoth, Bladerunner and Irritable for their extensive dissertations on the origins of orcs, elves, and their wardrobes. It's a bit over my head so I'm afraid I can't add anything to it - fascinating reading though - I presume you are all getting this from the Silmarillion? Next on my reading list. ***** MorGoth: absolutely! I can see Gandalf saying the "It is no brigand or orc chieftain" line to Denethor (attempting to rouse him to action, perhaps). Hope it makes it in the cut. ****** Elanor: Re: the whole Treebeard/untrained elves etc: Well, here we're getting into difficulties as to whether we're talking about the movie, the book, the Silmarillion or all of the above. All this cross-referencing back and forth to try to explain and rationalize inventions/additions/shortcomings of the filmmakers is now making my head spin. Can we really say that the film and book versions of the story take place in the same world? Can we apply the vast wealth of detailed history (as expounded by morGoth et al) to the movies? Elanor, I beg your pardon, but the Elves ARE depicted as hopeless fighters in the movie - in virtually every scene. Take a look at it. Compare their performance to that of the Rohirrim, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. The Rohirrim look like they know what they are doing in the close-quarters stuff, whereas, as I have extensively described, the elves don't have the first clue about swordsmanship. They allow themselves to be easily mowed down, hit by crossbow bolts (fired from the base of the wall!!?), not to mention thrown from the wall like rag dolls. Now, we have two choices: either we just give up and say that the filmmakers haven't thought this through, the battle is badly staged and the choreography is poor, OR we come up with a plausible reason as to why the elves are so outclassed. I feel that we have managed to come up with a very compelling and poignant explanation that adds immeasurably to the Helm's Deep experience. Because without that element, what is there to involve us emotionally in the battle? Well, that's how I enjoy the movie anyhow. It's my personal interpretation. And yes, I totally agree, that our friend the spinning elf could easily be a bit of fun on the part of the animators.
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From Letters: #131
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Finally found and enjoyed most of the hosed offerings, especially Djinnj's about Frodo fending off Faramir, and yes, it is Elijah Wood's ability to portray so many conflicting emotions at once that makes him worthy of any awards they want to throw at him - and I hope they will. I have mentioned before the look on his face when Faramir lets them go, which I swear manages to combine relief at being allowed to continue the quest and DESPAIR at realizing he must continue the quest. ***Pontsing Barset, you continue to align yourself with those annoying people who judge the totality of posters' lives from whatever you take objection to. Just as it is wrong to stigmatize Tolkien lovers as basement-dwelling virgins, it is equally arrogant to say make such sweeping statements as "I admit unequivocally to not comprehending this view of PJ's TTT..." (already an overstatement, since we are not discussing the entire film; merely what we regard as flaws to some sections of it) "...nor such an approach to life in general." Re: the second half of that sentence, what do YOU know of our approach to life in general? Were I to judge the totality of your life by the standards seen here, I would say that a person whose vocabulary can't rise above "pissing" and "bitch, bitch, bitch" and the latest "piddley bullshit whiney" when expressing disagreement is not that of someone who lives in perpetual sunshine.
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Sep 01, 2003 4:00:11 PM CDT
That's a good one Miami! And now, is time for STUMP THE VALA!
by morgoth
I was going to post this first thing in the morning but all this Elf and Orc talk got me distracted! Anyway: Which of the four Hobbits in the Fellowship had an uncle named Andy? A free all night oil rub from none other than our glorious Club Angband Bouncer, Conan-the-Humble, for the ladies and one free night with an entire Battlion of Orcette-sluts for the lads. And don't EVEN think of looking in the LoTR index 'cause Andy ain't listed! ** Irritable, I'm extremely curious as to which poster you were talking about.
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Once again, I bow to your knowledge, morGoth. I mentioned the problems with book/film cross-referencing in my last post. **** It is, of course, Sam, who's Uncle Andy never did a trick like crossing a stream on a tightrope.***Time for me to read the Silmarillion. ****** Caught Elanor's, Irritable's and Djinnj's posts - very nice work.
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please don't assume that I was upset with the change regarding Eomer's large clvary just because I pointed it out. All I was attempting to do was to point out the fact that there were so few defenders at Helm's Deep because so many potential defenders were with Eomer. "Galavanting" was probably a poor choice of words on my part. I really have no problem with this change from the book, but I do hope that the SEV will explain things a little clearer. ***I know I've said this before, but I really like Sam's speech (having just watched the scene), if only for being able to listen to the portion of Shore's score that runs during it. ***On the other hand, I hate 'Gollum's Song.' I swear it makes my skin crawl.
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Lordy Orson, it is I who bow to your eidetic memory! I thought that'd be a stumper for sure. Yes, it was after the now Gandalf-less Fellowship had crossed the Silverlode on the Elvish ropes which prompted Sam to say "Not even my uncle Andy ever did a trick like that!" Watch out for those Orcettes...they bite! ** Oh, I agree about the ocntext of ELves within the movie framework but, unfortunately, there isn't much to go on. I always assume PJ and the writers carry things over from the book unless it is specifically stated in the movie. That's why Gandalf's "...Goblin men." statement was so odd.
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...knows of my, ahem, regrettable "barbecuing accident." Being an Aussie, she certainly understands that sort of thing and even said she finds an ashen patina quite soothing.
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Sep 01, 2003 4:34:15 PM CDT
I've got a gang. You've got a gang. Everybody's got to have a ga
by miami mofo
Good old ANDY'S GANG!!!!!!!!! Yup, old Andwise Roper of Tighfield it is. Hamfast's brother, I believe.
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... an unexpectedly hot date with an even hotter young Maia ...You oughta know Aussie sheilas have heard all about d.a.t.e.r.a......(never mind).
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... I wasn't making any judgments about you, Orson, or anyone else for that matter. I was merely giving voice to my personal observation that: IT APPEARS TO ME that you and Orson are, at this point in the ongoing discussion of the achievements and shortcomings of the film version of T2T, pointing out trivial flaws with such enthusiasm that you sound both petty and rapacious. Which is of course: just my interpretation of your recent posts. Feel free to keep on flogging for all it's worth. I shall not bother to re-state the observation a fourth time, no matter how willfully you choose to misconstrue what I've said. *** Oh and BTW: Lay off the vocabulary police act. I'm perfectly capable of expressing myself in vernacular or straight out of the OED, depending upon the desired effect. The words I chose to use in my previous posts conveyed precisely the connotations I intended.
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No, Miami - I didn't assume anything. The cavalry charge is particularly fine, is it not? It actually looks better on pan-and-scan VHS than on widescreen DVD, due to the small size of the horses. As regards the increased numbers of the cavalry, attentive viewers will remember that Aragorn had mentioned that Eomer commanded 3,000 men. Unfortunately, most viewers seem to miss this and therefore have a WTF! reaction to the charge of the Light Brigade. So one presumes that when Eomer met the three hunters, his company was only one of many that were roaming the plains. Therefore Gandalf spent his five days rounding the lot of them up for the final rescue at HD. Refreshingly straightforward compared to some of the other confusing issues! The next thing to worry about is where they find the extra ten thousand or so horsemen who appear in ROTK! I sincerely hope that PJ provides some explanation for them: it would save us all a lot of headaches here on AICN talkback.
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Sep 01, 2003 8:06:39 PM CDT
damn the hosing! Ribbons, I'd love to hear it! (hoping this does
by djinnj
I've a deep seated adoration for Frodo, the sensitivity of his intellect and 'unhobbitlike' tendency of his to see the big picture and look outside the boundaries of the Shire always made his journey that much more tragic to me. But yes, Sam is an important hero as well, and more of an everyman than Frodo. And Sam, with his becoming mayor and all that, definitely demonstrates the victory of living on after the last sword has been stored away in exchange for a plow. He is, in many ways, more changed than Frodo. Frodo always was wise, and sensitive, and adventurous; and he becomes weary, burdened, his sensitivity overborne by care. However, Sam _learns_ to see beyond his immediate environs and because of that, I can easily see why he is more important (narratively) as a hero than Frodo. He's the one who lives on to teach the youth, after all. //// I am of a mind that the film is too much of an ensemble to really have one person walk away with all the awards. Wouldn't it be a hoot if 4 or 5 of the actors had to vie w/each other for little golden statues? But no, I think that's rather wrong considering. No, there's really no existing award in place that recognizes this kind of group achievement. Poop. //// Much appreciation to elanor, irritable, and everyone else who writes such fun and thoughtful stuff on these tbs. I've left my main geekout friend at my job (just started grad school full time after a loooong hiatus in the working world) and I've been coming here for my fix!
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Do you think that we will be able to dodge the woman in Minas Tirith who goes on and on regarding the whole the 'king has the hands of a healer' nonsense? Gads, Tolkien, who evidently never had an editor (kind of like Rowling, who definitely needed one in this last book), could have excised that character and I would not have minded one bit. My hope is that there just won't be time for such a character. Anyone else have moments from the book that you really won't miss?
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...it's true, the ensemble of Lord of the Rings is generally very effective and sometimes fantastic. Talking about who gives a better performance is a hard thing to do, because, if done well, actors appeal to different people for different reasons. When winnowing out four nominees to determine who has the most Oscar-worthiness, the process can be soooooo subjective that arguing over who's "best" probably serves most universally as an unnecessary source of stress for a lot of people (disregarding unofficial lifetime acheivement awards and lazy voters; just look at all the great work put forth last year in the Best Actor category). Even so, I'll do my best to try to articulate why I liked Sean better than Elijah, although let me stress again that I thought almost everybody in these films have been put to good use. While I'm working on a response, I'll leave you with a topic to discuss: do you think that Fran, Peter, and Phillipa are swingers? Hahahaha! Just try NOT to picture that one!
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Before I get to the response, let me apologize for the grammatical errors I let slip in my last post and remind djinnj that there WAS an awards show that nominated ensemble work done in a film: why I'm talking about the world-famous AFI Awards, of course! At least I think they did.
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Hey Orson, before I launch in I must commend you for your last set of posts. Although I still find myself disagreeing with you quite a bit I also notice a different tone in your writing, a far more pleasant and accommodating one, so huzzah for you.***You may think what you wish of the Elves at HD but I still don
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but then, they like to put out lists, and I find it difficult to look past that particular fixation of theirs! :P
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While I don't really have a problem w/Grima being all pasty and greasy; Tolkien did describe him as wizened and pale, with heavy lidded eyes. Is anyone else disturbed by his absence of eyebrows? I suddenly realized today (yes, I'm singularly unobservant) that that is what I found so strange about his overall appearance. What a makeup decision!
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I don't have a great problem with Eomer's forces as some here have expressed. In the book, Theoden only sent 6 Thousand riders to aid Gondor. Although to hear Dominic Monaghan talk in recent interviews over at Torn, it sounds like there will be 60,000 - 70, 000 Rohirrim riders in ROTK... Now Tolkien doesn't actually get around to explaining it, but presumably supporting forces were sent along as well, ie: Caterers, Blacksmith's/Quartermasters, Medical/Frist Aid type persons, transport type people bringing along spare horses, wagons etc, etc. All of these would have considerably added to the total number of soldiers Rohan provided, but I doubt PJ et al will delve into such things, given that they are not very 'cinematic'. If they send 60 -70,000 riders, well all I can say is that the movie population of Middle Earth is far greater than the book version. The conventional figure of fighting men to support personel in the military is about 6:1, ie: 6x Support persons for each fighting man!!! This is summed up by Napoleon Bonaparte in one of his famous (presumably translated) quotes, "an army travels on it's stomach." How's that for a visual image... Anyhoo I might weigh into the debate re: the Elves fighting ability. I don't think that 2000 years or so of non-participation in a major battle would have affected the Elves at all. Undertaking warfare is actually a detriment to a soldiers skills. There is so much to do in wartime, that you don't have any spare time to maintain the complete range of military skills, unlike peace time. In war, soldiers tend to focus on those skills needed for the particular task at hand. Skills and techniques that aren't required for that partcular task are neglected due to time constraints and a soldier's overall skillset generally erodes. And you should recall, time is not the same to Elven kind as it is to men. The Elves of Lothlorien were constantly engaged in battle anyway. They had the Moria orcs to the West, Saruman down South, and Dol Guldur and Mirkwood, to the East. In the War of the Ring, the Galadhrim had no problem, destroying Dol Guldur in battle. I think the problem with the Elves at Helm's Deep, was that they bore the brunt of the fighting. They were the ones who had the biggest head on clash with the Uruk-hai, both in Archery exchanges and in a frontal charge, which I (as it is depicted in the movie) despise. However, you should recall that according to the odds in the movie, they were also outnumbered about 20 to 1, not counting the 300 or so Rohirrim present at Helm's Deep. It's reasonable to assume that most if not all were killed, when they all charged Saruman's forces. I have one other thing to say about this as well. Someone mentioned that they stood around not knowing what to do. Aragorn assumed command of the Elves. They apparently accepted this. Once they accepted Aragorn as their commander, they did what any good soldier would do and responded directly to their commanders orders. I'm not going to go into it here, but it is much more effective in battle if you work as a cohesive unit, responding together to a commanders orders, than individuals running around doing their own thing. Even Legolas who everybody rightly recognises as a 'good' warrior does this. The whole, in these situations is always greater than the sum of the parts. Cheers.
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Between the 2 of us, I think we've just about covered the Elves at Helm's Deep. Cheers.
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I certainly agree with Elanor that shore made wonderful use of the Lothlorien theme when he transposed it into the Elven march and again during the battle. In fact, it took me a while to even realize what Shore had done, they are so different in emotional tone.... (Like finally recognizing that "76 Trombones" and "Good Night, My Someone" have exactly the same tune!) I do think the scenes with the Elves, both arriving and dying, have a greater emotional resonance than anything else at Helm's Deep (demonstrating, if I need to, that I am not a purist, as this is a clear deviation from Tolkien). Were they indeed all slaughtered? I had assumed the toll was high, but that there were probably survivors congregating by themselves after the victory - Elves not being as given to shouting "Huzzah!" and throwing their caps in the air as Men. Watching the film, the only thing they did that struck me as inept militarily was clustering in that killing pit to counter the orcs (who had pikes!) hand-to-hand, rather than doing what they do best, and firing from above, in which case, even with the wall breached, it should have gone their way. If they had the arrows. Perhaps, in their forest warfare, they were used to replenishing their quivers from among the slain, and bolts from crossbows were not anticipated. Crossbows may have been unseen previously in Middle-earth; perhaps they were a product of Saruman's high-tech devilry.
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Conan, as you say, the baggage train for an army in the field far outnumbers combatants, but in this case, my impression was that the Rohirrim rode to Minas Tirith as fast as they could get there, no baggage train provided. They knew that either they would break the siege and be provisioned by their allies inside Minas Tirith, or they would die - and have no further need of provision. Speed, in this case, was infinitely more critical than keeping in touch with their supply train. I had assumed the Rohirrim would travel as light as Scots or Huns or various other people that were hardy enough to live on a bag of oatmeal, or a steak stuck under the saddle. If they did have camp followers, they certainly wouldn't reach Minas Tirith until days later, and could not be part of the action. (Unlike at Bannockburn, when the Scots were in position awaiting the English, and the camp followers were able to provide a crucial assist during the battle.)
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I meant that any followers/supporting elements, certainly followed on later if at all, this is what I was referring to when I talked about Tolkien not clearly describing this aspect of the warfare. It seems reasonable to assume that Rohan had such support available, otherwise their army wouldn't have been particularly capable. If this assumption bears out, I can see no reason why it wouldn't have followed on behind the Cavalry, other than Tolkien never mentioning anything about it. Any such support certainly never played any part in the battle of the Pelennor Fields. Cheers.
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Yup, Elanor - with the passage of time I have been able to become more constructive and less reactionary. My initial expectations for TTT were way too high after FOTR but I've got a lot more perspective now. Thanks for noticing!***** Hmmm, well no, I didn't expect everyone to agree with me. But I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you can't see that the Elves are unable to defend themselves. Re: swordmanship - I recently met a guy who is an olympic fencing coach (I realise this sounds like internet BS but it's no lie!) who also knows a hell of a lot about using different bladed weapons (cuts, thrusts, parries, timing, keeping an opponent off-balance etc) Well, he rolls his eyes at the swordfight choreography in most movies. But even without that, I think that anyone can point out some failings in the elves' swordsmanship. Here are some examples. (WARNING, anally-retentive, nit-picking from here on in. If you're bored, don't read!) Example #1: There are two shots on the wall of elves who simply run into the swords swung by those huge Gimp-mask uruks. That's right - they run like lemmings to their death with absolutely no attempt at footwork, dispacement, evasion, blocking etc. That's what I mean by "allowing themselves to be mowed down". The obvious thing to do is to stay out of range until the Uruk has finished his attack (swinging motion). Then he will be off-balance due to momentum of swing + weight of huge meat cleaver. That's the moment to attack! You'll see Gimli and Aragorn pulling this one off! They obviously have combat experience. The elves do not. This is very, very basic swordsmanship. Example #2: When Legolas does his shield surfing (a feat no other elf seems capable of) you can see an elf struggling with an orc at the foot of the stairs. The orc is flailing around stupidly but the elf is completely unable to deal with it and flails around stupidly himself. Several minutes later, when Aragorn runs up the stairs to get to Haldir, you can see the same elf still fighting the same orc! This time, the orc has managed to take away the elf's sword and is punching him unconscious! Check it out! (you'll need your pause button). Example #3: The orcs have broken through and Gimli has jumped from the top of the wall (!). Aragorn gets to his feet and behind him you can see the elves standing helplessly, like rabbits caught in headlights. The orcs are pouring through the gap! Shoot them, for God's sake! Well, that's enough - I'm not going to go into all the rest, 'cause I'll just be repeating myself (and boring everyone to tears) - but I agree with you that Boromir does NOT allow himself to be mowed down. He displays superb skill with a sword - especially in the SEV. Boromir is a very pro-active, agressive swordsman. He doesn't wait for an attack, he pre-empts it. He penetrates his opponents' defence before they can get their attack going. You'll see him knocking the orcs' shields out of the way so he can cut them down. Lovely stuff! Absolutely no comparison with what goes on at Helm's Deep! In any case, BladeRunnerUnit has discussed the elves' martial skills far more comprehensively than I have, so I'd refer you to his post, if you haven't already read it. But in the end of the day, it's all about different interpretations of the movie. For me, (and I emphasise, for ME) this adds an ingredient to the battle that is otherwise missing. Knowing that the elves have been led to the slaughter is how I derive pathos and poignancy from the battle. You have your own interpretation which gives you the same feeling. That's perfectly fine. So I guess we'll just enjoy it our own way and leave it at that, okay? By the way, for anyone who's interested, my sword-expert aquaintance informs me that the most realistic movie swordsmanship is to be found in "The Duellists" by Ridley Scott.
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Doesn't the Golden Globes hand out EAA's? I know they do for TV shows, but I can't recall if they do the same for movies. As for LotR:RotK, since there is no real "lead," Supporting Actor is the best that I feel that the movie could hope for in terms of Acting and Oscar, so that leaves the question, who is supporting whom? The closest analogy I can think of in recent times is Kevin Spacey's Supporting Oscar win for 'The Usual Suspects' -- an ensemble movie if there ever was one. He got the award even though it could be argued that Verbil/Keyser was the lead. Thus there is hope for Elijah -- although I wouldn't mind it if Sean pulls off an Oscar-worthy performance. Unfortunately, I feel that the Academy will once again overlook the acting in the movie -- just a feeling based on The Academy's past history with movies of this type.
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Just curious, what does your buddy say about 'Rob Roy'? And let me add my cheers to elanor. I definately like the new Orson.
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Well, I'm the same Orson, you know! Just a bit older and wiser. I'm afraid I won't be able to answer your Rob Roy query right away. This fencing coach is a person I met recently through friends who has now gone back to his country. I will be seeing him again - but not for at least a few months. But I did get some fencing lessons from him, plus a demonstration with a real sabre (which, as a cutting weapon would be used fairly similarly to the elves' blades). I didn't ask him about Rob Roy, in fact I didn't even ask him about LOTR - I was too busy trying to stop him taking my head off! But I did become somewhat more informed about swordfighting and the importance of timing, shifting balance, shutting down an opponent's attack etc. A trained swordsman can do all this at lightning-quick speed, believe me! So I'm applying these concepts to what I see in the movie. As we have been repeatedly told, the LOTR crew includes expert chreographers, stuntmen and martial artists of all descriptions - so I assume they know what they're doing. So instead I'll ask you a question: is Rob Roy any good? I'd like to see it if it is.
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My guess is that regardless of what actually takes place on the screen Viggo will get a best actor nod if one is given. Perhaps Elijah as well if they are feeling outrageously generous. Sean Astin will gather in a best supporting actor nomination if he is nominated in any category. The folks who do the nominating will always go for the big heads (on movie posters, the bigger the head, the bigger the part, usually) for best actor and actress, thus Viggo and Elijah. Especially Viggo as the title of the movie is all about him. My only other guess is that Ian McKellen could grab another best supporting nod if Gandalf's role is much more toward the forefront then in TTT. Frankly, I would be pleased to see any acting nominations, mainly because the acting has actually been worthwhile. So often in epics we get fairly cardboard characters, stereotypes, etc, and rarely are given any range of action, emotion, etc., beyond, well, heroic action figure. Which is why my favorite acting in a heroic/epic is Kenneth Branagh in Henry V. But the main difference is that the original source material in that one was just a wee bit better then most. You think? Good writing makes the world of difference in these types of movies, which is why those with wretched dialog can sink even a movie that may look great.
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Hullo all, sorry I missed all the fun, but I had a little TTT viewing party on Friday night and spent most of the weekend recuperating from over-indulgence in miruvel and, ahem, longbottom leaf. I am however glad to see that the trolling and backbiting and general nastiness which threatened to overwhelm the TB on Thursday miraculously transformed into a fascinating, well-rounded debate over the differences between the books and the movies and problems of adaptation. And that Orson himself was leading the discussion. Congratulations Mr. Welles! You acquitted yourself admirably for any past purist nitpicking. Although the slap at WETA's translation of Alan Lee's artwork still leaves a bit of a sting. I can't for the life of me understand how WETA's work on Hobbiton, Rivendell, Isengard, Moria, Lothlorien, Meduseld or Helm's Deep can be viewed as anything other than a triumph. But enough about that, for I am here to admit that your argument about the lack of Elfen Martial Skill AND the sleepiness of the Ents makes sense, at least when talking about the film. Even if I don't necessarily agree with either your view that the Lorien elves were hopeless (I agree with elanor's "brunt-of-the-attack" assessment) nor that Treeberd slept through the destruction of the forests of Isengard (although it is a quaint and appropriate image) I cannot fault your logic. And I'm also glad to see you've somewhat softened your stance on TTT to be nearly in accord with mine. I've never said that TTT was even remotely as satisfying a film experience as FOTR ("PJ fucked up" being my initial response) but that there was still much to admire. Whew. Now that that's outta tha way... *** Miami, re: Your poll. I have a tie -- #4, Dom Monaghan & Billy Boyd, because they seemed like so much fun in the WB special AND #10, Cate Blanchett & Hugo Weaving, because I love nearly everything I've seen Cate do and, c'mon, it's Agent Smith. And I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell I'd go anywhere near Richard Taylor. His high, nasally, pinched voice makes me cringe every time he pops up in any of the documentaries. It just has this Fran Drescher quality that gets to me like orc claws on a blackboard. Plus, he'd spend the whole movie enthusing about how great the whole thing is. Which I'm sure it will be, don't get me wrong, but I can't abide movie talkers. On a curious side note, as I watched the WB program and Dom Monaghan mentioned how well he'd got on with Billy Boyd, I got to thinking how I'd fare in that situation: stuck in an unfamiliar land for two years, forced into camaraderie with strangers. Who would you get along with? For myself, from what seen of the actors, I'd have to say I'm probably most like Viggo Mortenson, in that I share similar passions (painting) and character traits (aloof introspection.) I'm sure I'd dig going adventure crazy with Orlando Bloom, and have a lot of laughs with Dom 'n' Billy, and probably feel most "comfortable" with Elijah & Sean Astin, who just seem so damn friendly. But I'd like to think I'd connect with the King hisself. Of course, we all know I'd spend ALL my free time mackin' on Liv Tyler, but that's another story...(;{=
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No, this is not some 'Introduction to Economics' guns or butter question. This is much more important than that, for it is time to play our favorite game, SPECULATION! OK, today's question: Into which scene will P.J. appear in RotK and what will he be doing, since he can no longer be Bugs Bunny or Spearchucker Jones [Quick, in which movie did the Spearchucker Jones character appear, and who played him?]? And for a tie-breaker: In which scene will P.J.'s kids appear? ***mort, if you wanna hang out with Viggo, you'd better learn to fly fish. Have no fear though, if memory serves, morGoth is our resident fly fishing expert, so he can teach you.
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Any bigature but Rivendell would be fine by me. My first reaction to the exterior of the Rivendell set was
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Perhaps I should change my answer to Orlando Bloom and be content with jeopardizing my well-being by partaking in extreme sports. As for the Bigatures, I'd love to have a backyard big enough to fit in a "Flooded-Isengard" wading pool. As for PJ's kids: OF COURSE they'll be Gondorian chitluns, possibly following Pippin around the white city. The big question is: what color will their wigs be?
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Well, as long as you don
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I was hoping someone else would be able to fill in my faulty memory. Really though, my test of a good character is how long I remember him and Roth's has passed the 5 year mark.
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Holy crud it's gonna take me til Thursday to catch up here, and by then the TB'll have doubled again. Okay, so NO MORE POSTING allowed until I've been able to read what's gone on so far. (Looks great!) So until I give the okay ;) here's a new question to mull over [as for seating partners, Cate is MINE and NOONE else's! Back off, no foolin', on this there is no negotiation. MINE, I tell you, she is MINE! And she wears the ears, too!]. Now'en. The question. So far, we've had Elrond declare, "You shall be The Fellowship Of The Ring!" and Saruman intone, "...The Two Towers: Orthanc, and Barad-dur..." Here's the Question: How will PJ et al. manage to shoehorn THIS movie's title into the dialogue? :) Who says it, and in what context? SCENE: Deep inside the Dwimmerberg, Aragorn has just summoned the Dead to the Stone of Erech. DEAD #1: "Well well well, if it ain't the Return of the King." DEAD #2: "Kinda scruffy, isn't he? I don't buy it." ARAGORN: "But I AM The King! Look at my sword!" [Raises Anduril aloft; exposes pit stains] DEAD #2: "Downwind, please. Gah." DEAD #3: "Damn, when's the last time you changed those clothes?" LEGOLAS: "I've been telling him that for weeks, believe me." DEAD #1: "You know, I don't remember awaiting The Return Of The Elf. How about you shut it." GIMLI: "Yyyyyes!" DEAD #3: "And you're on thin ice, Stretch." DEAD #2: "Guys, odor and appearance notwithstanding, it's either The Return Of The King or it's not The Return Of The King. I say that fancy toadsticker he's sporting is good enough for me." DEAD #1: "I agree, let's just get this over with." DEAD #3: "Works for me. The Return Of The King it is, then." ARAGORN: "Right. Put the Dwarf down and follow me." DEAD #2: (whispering) "Is there ANY way to do this with him downwind?" ......and the Dead followed.
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While fencing is a different animal than sword-fighting, and my own experience is with fencing (here and at St. Andrews, where I learned that wonderful maneuver where you flick your opponent's blade right out of his hand - boy, is that fun!) and to a lesser extent with tae kwondo, my kudos go entirely to the more narrow focus fights of FOTR, first Aragorn on Weathertop, but more particularly, Boromir's last stand, which I loved in both long and short versions, because unlike almost any other movie swordplay I have watched, I wasn't going crazy at the opportunities missed. (And by the way, no one has mentioned that wonderful series "Conquest," which takes you step by step through the realities of ancient and medieval combat.) In most movies, and that includes an awful lot of Helm's Deep, I simply cannot stand watching people do everything wrong and survive because they are the designated heroes. When your opponent swings and misses, you do not go for his blade, you go for his heart, or the chinks in his armor, or his sword arm, or whatever you can get at before he recovers to take another swipe. You feint to get him off balance. And you do this at mad speed. (The battle with the troll in Moria was realistic from this angle; unrealistic from the viewpoint of how much battering the human skull will stand, not to mention a whiplashed spine.) Now, if the Elves had used Roman tactics, charging behind massed shields at the breach in the wall, the "barbarian" orcs wouldn't have stood a chance. (See this demonstrated on "Conquest" - despite being massively outnumbered, the Romans invariably win.) The orcs' front ranks would have been slaughtered, while a second rank of Elves could fire over their heads to get the rest. And I won't even discuss leaping down onto or charging pikes.... Thrilling charges aside, I am hoping that the battles in ROTK will break down more into the kind of individual combat that was so impressive in FOTR, by which I mean, that we will not be given just a blur of "action" fighting, but actually see some logical cause and effect in the blows given. ***Intellectually, I can see why people might enjoy
"Rob Roy," but emotionally, I found it depressing. The rape was particularly nasty. The villains weren't the kind I enjoy watching, but the kind I want dead and off the screen as soon as possible. There was just too much unalloyed brutality, which is why I think "Braveheart" comes out ahead in comparisons (which isn't really fair, as their only real similarity is being set in Scotland) - the brutality was certainly there, but it was balanced with scenes of real exhilaration and love, and ends with something amazing having been accomplished. All a question of what kind of tone you prefer, I suppose. Or even, which actors. -
twice now! D.O.T. and Pallando Blue have had me guffawing to the disturbance of quiet study area decorum. *snicker* And, what with everyone else putting in their 2 coppers, I think I'll say EW and SA for cast/crew members to sit between. This isn't for any of their conversation, which I'm sure would be lovely, but simply because I would need to reassure myself that they are really alright during the trek through the desert part. Every time I read that section, I feel an indescribable urge to give Frodo a cuppa tea and a scone, after having given him a really large meal and access to a turkish bath. That goes for Sam, too, and his poor parched throat. *sniff*
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Before I get started let me make one thing clear: I know this opinion is a subjective one, and not necessarily "right," just as Academy Awards aren't necessarily "right." Because of that, I'm going to do my best to try and explain where I'm coming from with my preference towards Sam. The writing might seem a little repetitive because of it, so I apologize in advance. Also, as stated earlier, I'm a fan of most of the work done in Lord of the Rings and don't mean to take away anything from the actors. My criticisms for Elijah Wood as Frodo are not as severe as they may seem in this post, but I used the cons to contrast what I liked about Sam with what I didn't like about Frodo. Believe me, I still think he delivered a good performance and I know how hard and grueling acting can be. Okay? With that clumsily-written preamble out of the way, let me begin: I think that Elijah Wood was perfectly cast and makes a "winning" Frodo, as they say. This much is attributable to a number of people, one of them Harry Knowles himself, who encouraged Wood to audition for the part. As DoT already pointed out, the layered expressions on his face during introspection are done very well at times. However, his character's manifestations of emotion are not as static, I guess, as Sam's, and with a ginormous shoot done in no particular order, it shows. There are times in 'The Two Towers' where things don't seem to match up as well with what came before. Also, seeing him in interviews and knowing he's of a genial nature, it's not hard to surmise why his interactions with Sam and other people in 'Fellowship' seemed more natural than it does in 'Towers.' While he's supposed to become increasingly more self-centered and, because of the ring, his paroxysms of self-pity and frustration aren't supposed to seem entirely rational, I have a hard time buying the uhhh... "level" of those manifestations in his personality. The scene where he screams at Faramir and the one where he asks Sam what he would know about "it" come to mind, although his rage is more believable than his whimpering at this point. Because of that, and because he asserts himself the Lord of the Rings at the summit of Mount Doom, his performance could either go two ways in 'Return of the King': if he plays it as progressively selfish as he can get away with, then I might change my mind about where his character is going. As it is, the spasms of emotion that we're getting from T2T wouldn't put him over Sean in my book and I think that's because, while well-diagrammed, Wood feels uncomfortable in those scenes where he has to play pitiful against another character who he's just been friends with the other day. Sean's Sam takes the same journey, but because he's not forced to contend with the Ring, his character and the change in relationship dynamics seem more natural. He knows every decision he makes has to come from within himself, and so, when looking back over the course of all three films, his behavior will seem more justifiable. His attitudes towards and behavior around others is also complex enough (with Frodo, with Gollum, with Faramir) to make it all come together. My favorite line of his was the gardener one he delivered to Julian Lennon (ooops; Faramir). Although I wanted to throttle the little bugger at times, he never does things that seem out of character (the speeches at the end of both Fellowship and Towers might hurt his chances, though). Phew. Well djinnj, I know I sounded a bit like a windbag, but does that make sense? I may have smoothed over my lack of articulation by using bloated sentences, but I hope you get the general idea.
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I submit Elijah Wood's portrayal of Frodo during the scene following the Forbidden Pool episode. His reactions to Sam are a marvel of quiet understatement. It is, in fact, one of my favorite scenes in the film. Also played to perfection is the follow-up with Faramir: his barely-controlled torment while being toyed with, and his ultimate explosion. In fact, I would particularly like to call attention to the ongoing brilliance of EW's reactions (which is, for my money, much more a test of acting ability than speaking one's part). He is so very good that it took me several viewings to realize that he doesn't have a single line in the coney scene. It is ALL reaction, and yet you can read every subtle emotion he is experiencing: misery, gratitude, triumph, nausea, purposefulness, sudden wariness.... I know the dialogue is wonderful and distracting, but just watch his face (even behind Sam and Gollum at the pot) and you will see what I mean.
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Sep 02, 2003 8:30:05 PM CDT
military history, acting, and general all purpose blather from y
by hildebrand
First, for those who are interested in reading some very good, very academic (albeit highly engaging and readable), histories regarding military strategy, weapons, tactics, etc, one should read just about everything written by Kelly DeVries, professor of history at Loyola University, and head of the De Re Militari society. I have gone to a number of his papers at the annual International Congress on Medieval Studies, and I believe Dr. DeVries knows everything there is to know on the subject of the military in during the Medieval period. ** Second, I continue my thoughts regarding the acting in the LOTR movies, in that, it is quite nuanced for being of the 'epic movie' type. I thought that Bernard Hill was excellent (as I have mentioned in previous posts, but it is worth repeating, his comment about no parent should ever having to bury their child is heartbreaking, then again one should not watch those kind of scenes while holding your own 14 month old daughter, it makes parental types all weepy to think of such things in any case). I thought that the brief scene between Merry and Pippen when they come to the realization that the Shire is screwed along with everyone else if this goes badly was well acted, the dawning realization that this is no good, that something has to be done. Finally, the interesting way in which Elijah and Sean have really tried to bring out the deep friendship between Frodo and Sam has been better then I expected (not having liked either actor much in their previous work). Neither actor seems to be on the verge of overkill as many actors would be in these types of scenes (although, and I admit I love the scene, Sam's speech at the end of TTT could have veered straight into schmaltz). Nonetheless, I think some kudos need to go to Peter Jackson being a good director of actors, not just of broad scale action and effects. I would agree that the only wooden actor on the set seems to be Orlando Bloom, I think he took the aloof elf thing a bit too seriously.
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Apologies, BladeRunnerUnit, my free-time has evaporated, I'm afraid, and I may not be able to post for a good while. Also, the posting on this TB is of such a quality and contains so much diverse information that it is very difficult to comment on everything! Be assured that I have been reading ALL your posts - though I may not always get a chance to reply. All I can say is a gigantic, salivating wow! to the idea of hundreds of thousands of REAL soldiers in War + Peace. I am a bit fed up with the CGI ants that pass for armies in movies these days...Thanks for the info on Rob Roy and the Duellists - these are movies I definitely want to see. I also remember that Barry Lyndon was a striking movie with great music and cinematography (lit entirely by candles, if I remember correctly). ***** Thanks for those kind words, Mortsleam, though I don't claim to be leading any discussion - there are many here who are better informed than I am. My sudden popularity has caused me to swallow my own sword from sheer shock. Re: Alan Lee. Oh yes, I'm quite definite on this point. I have been fond of Alan Lee's drawings for almost twenty years. I think that in the case of Lothlorien and Rivendell, the set designers did not manage to come anywhere near the magic and elegance of Lee's drawings. It's sort of hard to explain - but when I see Lee's drawings of Rivendell, I go, "wow!". And then when I see the solid version....it just looks a bit tacky. Maybe it is impossible to translate such delicate pencil drawings into real sets (Lee achieves his effects as much by what he leaves out as by what he puts in). Having said that, the sets of Moria, The Golden Hall, and The Shire are very successful. But when it comes to the Elvish stuff, I think they just haven't been able to get it quite right. Lee has very politely suggested this himself - remarking that several Rivendell set elements had to be abandoned because they couldn't make them look like his drawings...***** Runelord: Yes, the whole thing was a great experience, particularly since the guy had such knowledge and passion for his subject and was an excellent teacher. In fact, I found it so fascinating that I might just take up fencing long-term. Thanks to you too for the info on Rob Roy - I'll definitely see it - though I think I'll be skipping the rape scene. ***** As for the Oscars, I'm in two minds. On the one hand I'd like to see ROTK reaping awards in every category. On the other hand, the Oscars are utterly meaningless as a judgement of merit (except maybe in the technical categories). In a way, if ROTK DIDN'T win, I would almost take that as an indication that it really was a quality movie. ***** When it comes to performances, I think that all the characters have been perfectly cast - even those who seem very different to their book versions (I have no problem with Faramir or Theoden). I am particularly impressed with Elijah and Viggo. I think both performances are literally iconic moments of cinema. My one gripe is with Orlando Bloom. He's not terrible - but he is terribly bland, and I can detect no hint of "elvishness" in his performance.
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Yes, all of you go on about Hobbits and bloody tarks and stinking Elves. It all almost make Snaga-ape want to bring up last eat-cycle mung stew. All forget greatest performance of both movies and who should that be? Gollum is greatest performer and anybody thinking other than this is just stuck in pretty, pretty face land. Poor Gollum has only bad misfortune to be loathsome character but you all know who is most important. That right, no Gollum no happy outcome for cutie-pie Hobbits and rock-star Ranger Viggo. Ha-ha, maybe Snaga-ape like alternate ending with all of Arda covered in darkness. Stupid fat Hobbit and Frodo of Tearshire can
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I agree with you about where Elijah's strengths lie, but I think you underestimate how important "speaking one's part" can be to a performance.
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Ribbons, clearly no one can be a good actor without knowing how to speak and deliver dialogue, and I have the utmost respect for the spoken word, but I have heard many actors say that the real test is in the reactions, particularly in film acting. In fact, a great reaction can sometimes save a badly delivered line, or be the making of an otherwise ordinary scene. In inferior films, it sometimes isn't that the lines are so bad or even so badly spoken, but that the actors are lifeless or merely looking reasonably attentive when it is not their turn to say something. With Elijah (and with most of the other actors in the films) you can see the inner life coming through. You have a sense of what their thoughts are even when they don't have lines. That is what I am talking about. For that matter, one of the great strengths of both FOTR and TTT has been the purposeful way people in the background tend to go on about their business, regardless of what is happening in the foreground. For example, I love watching Frodo and Sam repack the pony as Merry and Pippin go on about Second Breakfast.
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After all, that's what garnered Samantha Morton a lot of buzz for 'Sweet and Lowdown.' I still enjoy Astin's performance better, but I understand and accept that it's a matter of personal tastes. However, if you wanna look at a master of conveying complex emotions through facial expressions, watch Ian McKellen, especially when he remembers the name Gandalf in Fangorn Forest.
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Fifteen weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!! ***Excellent choice Snaga! It's the same one I made myself. And thanks for this morning's chuckle.
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Actually, I think Aragorn will say it after drinkind too much mead.
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..., BRU, speak in a terminology known as "Bafflegab." Ingold, just as the Uruk's break a hole in the Keeps' front door, you see a Rohirrim (a rather BEEFY one at that!) rear back and chunk a spear right into a Uruk. Yup, that's PJ. Others have said he's in the brief "Saruman addresses the Dunlenders" scene but I've never picked him out there. More importantly, we can now FREEZE FRAME on Marilyn MonRohan! Yowza! ** Orson, I know that Lee isn't 100% happy with how Richard Taylor's folks executed Rivendell and other Elvish stuff but I think what they did is extremely beautiful. Now, as I've said before, let's not judge the pudding until the entire thing is done. Meaning, wait'll you see the interior of the Throneroom of Minas Tirith. WAIT! We already have! So, that room is almost verbatim of a pic Lee did showing Gandalf and Pippin standing in front of Denethor who is holding Boromir's cloven horn. It is EXACTLY like Lee's painting and even includes the exquisetly details White Tree carving. You can see this in the RoTK preview and looking at the many still pics (TORN has them all), you can verify this. The pic where we see the back of Aragorn hides the King's throne and steps leading up to it. You can see the White tree in the background. Also, each alcove that has a statue of a past king has a brief history in Elvish text behind each one with more exquisetly detailed carvings. In fact, this attention to the kind of details that only those who are familiar with the books far, far outweighs any niggling concerns over some, probably, unattainable idea of "Elvishness" that any set designer could ever hope to acheive. Recall too that Lee took part in finishing these very same sets. I think it all ties in with the minds eye vision each and every person has of the books and the detailed descriptions therein. At any rate, I love all the set designs though they may not meet what my mind has envisioned all these years. F'r instance, the shot of Gandalf and Pippin riding up to Minas Tirith gave me a slight WTF! when I first saw it. I never imagined MT to be in such a run-down and filthy condition as that! Needless to say, I am VERY over it.
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Sep 03, 2003 1:31:31 PM CDT
Pallando, in answer to your question, it will be Ioreth that say
by miami mofo
"Blimey, it's The Return of the King," as King Ellesar enters the city. ***I'm not sure if it was this or the poster tb where someone complained about the Uruk's cockney accent. The reason they speak that way is obvious: they'd sound a lot dumber-er if they spoke with a Brooklyn accent. "Hey Ugluk, are you from Canarsie?" ***pssst Ingold (he whispers). Check your e-mail. ***I believe that the word BladeRunnerUnit was trying for was esoteric -- intelligible only to those with special knowledge.
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I just posted a respose to Pallando, Ingold & BladeRunnerUnit that ended up in the middle of Monday, 9/1. Where will this end up me wonders?????????
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respose? That was, obviously, supposed to be response. ***I see that I was correct about esoteric.
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Sep 03, 2003 2:34:26 PM CDT
" The NEVER-Before-Seen MOST Spec-TACULAR Spectacles Ever Worn b
by orson#1
We're into the area of personal taste here, morGoth - but I would stress that I am not comparing Rivendell and Lothlorien with what's in my imagination. I'm comparing Alan Lee's drawings - which make me go "Yowza! Now THAT'S Middle Earth!" - to how they end up as sets in the movie. To my eye, the sets don't come near the feeling Lee creates in his drawings (compare Lee's drawing of the statue holding Narsil to the sculpture used in the movie - Dear God! What happened!) Which is not to say that the sets are BAD! I accept that to most people, they probably look terrific. Anyway, I won't go into all the niggly details about drawing vs sculpture etc, 'cause it will bore everyone but me. I will say though, that Alan Lee has produced his best work for this movie, in my opinion. Being biased in his favour, I consider these movies to be as much his creations as PJ's! *** Oh, yes - Minas Tirith does look great - My only quibble is with the Elvish locations, which admittedly are very tricky to pull off. **** I agree with the other talkbackers about Richard Taylor - I really don't want to hear any more from him. He is more of a PT Barnum-style promoter than some-one who imparts interesting information. He seems to think that the LOTR trilogy are the only movies that have ever been made. Very annoying person to work with, I'd say! **** Have started reading the Silmarillion. Aha! So that's who the Valar are! So far, it seems to be a Tolkienised version of Milton's Paradise Lost. There's a GIGANTIC amount of information in it so eventually I'll be in a better position to follow these discussions...
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Well, I wasn
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Or should that've been Dunlendinger? [The index refers to them as the Dunlendings.] What I have finally seen however, which I think you once pointed out during the film's theatrical run, is the "mysterious" white horse that charges down the ramp just after Theoden. You can see brief cuts of it (four, I believe) as they first charge out the door and then through that maze before reaching the ramp, but always the scene cuts before we see the rider. Then from on high we see the charge down the ramp, led by Theoden, then Aragorn alongside that white horse, then the standard bearer alongside Legolas (and Gimli) on his white horse. And that my friends is all that remains of P.J./Fran/Philippa's ill-fated attempt to have Arwen appear at Helm's Deep. ***I for one really loved the Rivendell bigature, so if 'noone' else wants it, I'LL TAKE IT, thank you very much.
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Not that I think AMPAS should be given so much importance, but it would be nice to see the academy recognize how special and, indeed, important this 9-12 hour film is. I still come out for EW, but SA is doing terrific work. I don't think anyone is doing bad work, not even poor maligned OB. If you want to see a little film that has great acting in the whole scene (not just the folks talking at the moment), look up A Midwinter's Tale (UK - In the Bleak Midwinter), directed by K. Brannagh. FANTASTIC acting in all the little nooks and crannies of the scenes. Not a single wasted screen moment. //// Regarding the accents of the orcs. If'n you look back at the text, the orcs are rather *ahem* colorful in their language, and I believe that is to help make it clear that they are nasty folk. One thing I remember from the Hobbit is how classist the trolls' speech patterns were. In an attempt to make it clear that they are uneducated (and in the orcs' sense, rabble) methinks. The continuum of Middle Earth changed from the Hobbit to LotR, of course, so p'raps trolls just wordlessly howl now....
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Ha, ha Miami but that
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morGy: In thinking about Arwen and the decision to have her appear at Helm's Deep, I wonder if the original reason for doing so was the "two film" concept that was scripted and thanks to Bob Shaye abandoned. [Lets all say, THANK YOU, BOB!!!!!!!!!] Time constraints and LotR don't mix. ***Moaters: I got the Bruce tickets!
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Again we see how a bunch of folks drawn together in a common bond still have vastly differing tastes. No problem with that but I am astonished and bemused to read that some people find Richard Taylor's voice (or style or both) annoying. His voice and manner of speaking has the opposite effect on me. I admit I am a sucker for accents, especially English-y ones and at the moment I am head over heels in love with the NZ accent. But I just lap up anything I hear Mr. Taylor say. His passion and enthusiasm is infectious to me, I find his over-the-top geeky obsession with detail sexy. Yes I said sexy! I swear I could listen to him all day, and I always perk up when his voice or face comes on the documentaries. Yes, there is a certain monotone or droniness to his voice, but he has such a peculiar cadence that I am transfixed. One of my favorite moments in the ROTK preview is his boyish "that was so cool!" comment after the Rohirrim go charging by.***
Orson, perhaps he might be forgiven his ultra-cheerleading for LOTR as it has indeed consumed his entire life for seven full years. It has also made him a millionaire, brought his work to the attention of the world and resulted in the wide-spread respect (and even awards) of his peers. I betcha once Kong gets revved up he will switch his
cheering to that gem.***And who wants to bet that Viggo will get a role in King Kong? Or at least speculate as to why he was in London with Peetuh Jeksin?***Ingold! Could you please make the tb stop its sneaky hosing? As for PJ on screen, I swore he put himself in Towers twice but in the latest fan mag he says he's only in the HD scene. He credits his scruffy spear-caster with turning the tide of the battle. Hint for finding him: he is NOT wearing his glasses but you should recognize his beard and round face. He wears a mesh-mail-hood on his head, yells fiercely while tossing his spear down at the Uruk-filled causeway.
***There was a blurb in Variety today quoting Ted Turner at the Telluride Film Festival as taking credit for greenlighting LOTR. I usually get a kick out of Ted but sounds like he's been sniffing glue again! -
I thought you and I had a 'thing' going Runelord? I'm somewhat known as rather handy with an edged weapon you know... Your comments back a bit with Orson seem to indicate it's all over. What is a conquerer to do? Ah well move on I expect. Ah,women, can't live with them, can't split them in two... Cheers
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morGoth, without wishing to sound sycophantic - thanks for the cool and apt description of Alan Lee's drawings. "A misty curtain frailness". Goddammit if that wasn't the description I was looking for! You're absolutely right that this must be incredibly difficult to translate into a real set. Lee is an illustrator more than a designer and is an expert at making something look marvellous on paper. You may notice that John Howe is much more attuned to design issues - and draws things that can actually be built. He did lovely work on the interior of Bag End, for example. **** Appreciate you sending me that picture - my inbox was stuffed with jukmail so I may not have got it - is it the one from the illustrated LOTR? **** Re: elf theme-parks (WARNING: geeky stuff ahead - boring unless you're into it): The reason the Elvish locations can easily end up looking "theme-park tacky" is because of the style (correctly, I believe) chosen to depict them: Art Nouveau. This was a very short-lived style because it was so difficult and expensive to implement. It is mainly inspired by the natural, organic forms of leaves, vines, tendrils etc - hence its appropriateness for the Elves. The problem is that there has really only been a handful of people in the history of the world who have been able to make it work! Most attempts end up looking quite cheesy. The curvy vines and tendrils need to have a taut "whip-lash" tension in them - otherwise they end up looking like spaghetti. It's a lot easier for a draughtsman to get this tension with the stroke of his pencil on paper - it's getting it with solid materials that's difficult.
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http://www.lordofthepeeps.com /lotp/fotp.html as usual, please delete the space betwixt the com and the slash. And I apologize in advance.
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Now yer being distracted by one of those females
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Whoa! Slow down there, BRU! Give people a chance! Your interpretation of Faramir is perfectly fine and plausible. As you point out, it looks like the extended version of TTT will really explain his personal issues. I think we'll understand why going against his father's orders is such a gigantic step for him to take. Personally, I like movie-Faramir very much because he fits very well into the story at this point. My only problem is that we are given absolutely no logical reason as to why he lets Frodo go. Maybe the SEV will make this clearer. Respect, by the way, for tackling this TB in your second language. **** Have spotted another nice detail included by the animators in TTT. When Gandalf fights the Balrog on Durin's tower, the Balrog has one broken wing! If you look closely, his healthy wing is flapping around as it should - but the other one is draped uselessly over the parapet. Obviously this injury was sustained when he smashed against the wall on his way down to the underground lake...
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But yes, Orson, it's the Lee painting from the illustrated LoTR. Anyway, it looks like PJ went with that verbatim and it looks wonderful. Yes, transitioning to the third dimension can be jarring for the less than spatialy gifted among us. It's like irritable's (or was that djinnj?) analogy with the painted figure being rendered as a sculpture.
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Those perfectly innocent comments to a perfectly innocent Orson were made because I enjoy conversing with fellow Tailenders, not because I
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Actually, I didn't have so much of a problem with his hardheadedness about hanging onto Frodo. It certainly makes more sense than his letting them go from an instictive knowledge of their trustworthiness. It was just his desire for the ring which bothered me. But, as I've said before (don't remember where) since Aragorn was made more 'human' and fallible, then Faramir needed to be made so as well. Or else he comes in perilously close to being 'better' than Aragorn, which we all know just ain't so. It seems to me that the gaps in TTT which the SEV will fill or fix are rather more glaring than those in FotR. Perhaps that just because deviations from the text are getting bigger as the films progress further into the altered story lines. Whatever it is, the added character development for characters who are fairly flat in the texts (especially Theoden) are fine by me. //// OK, looking for PJ at HD? Right after the first time the battering ram is unveiled right at the gates, there are shots of inside and shots of above. There is one fairly tight shot of a single mail clad soldier throwing a spear over the wall, presumably at the orcs directly below. THAT is PJ. I dunno if he shows up again, 'cause I haven't been reduced to going through the film frame by frame... yet. //// My god, I did forget about Andy Serkis! I still prefer EW, but AS's performance is truly a sight to behold. The interrogation scene is brilliant, and I wish the exorcism scene (y'know, the one where Smeagol pushes down Gollum) had more bits where you could clearly see the movements of S switching into G and vice versa. There's one instance of non-continuity and one of perfect continuity (rather than instances that can't be determined either way). Whereas the non-continuity can be ignored, the moment of perfect continuity gives me a shiver each and every time. //// Lastly, does anyone else cringe every time the WB special's narrator refers to the Rohirrim as "the Rohans?" Just wondering.... Lordy, what are we all going to geek out over next fall?
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That continuous shot of Gollum giving way to Smeagol is one of the best things about TTT (behind, of course, the
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..."truly annoyed" also. As I mentioned above, Barrie Osborne is the worst one for saying "the Rohans." Ordesky slips only occasionally. ** Yes, I must admit the peculiar Snaga-ape is on to something this time. In fact, the biggest "shiver moment" with the Gollum/Smeagol scene is when Gollum finally gets it that Smeagol is serious and the change of expression when he simply says "What?" gets me every time. Dunno if the rest of you have watched the lordoftherings.net bit where they filmed Gallum chasing after the trout but Serkis gets the "I almost froze to death!" award for his numerous takes in the icy (and only recently snow-bound!) stream. Whew, I've taken an unexpected dip in Janurary cold stream before and rest assured, it feels like somebody just gut-punched ya! To do it repeatedly, ON PURPOSE, is either insane or shows extreme dedication. I'm not sure they aren't one in the same!
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Heh,
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is actually independent of the ring search, I think. On one hand, Sauron's looking for the ring, on the other hand, he's building up his army so that he can destroy his enemies. Finding the ring would make it easier, but he still needs the armies to hunt down the opposition. As I recall, Gandalf and Aragorn believe that Aragorn's challenge (using the palantir) precipitates the attack on Gondor, but doesn't cause it. Gondor has been under attack for years, and things have been getting steadily worse. The situation with the ring just moves forward Sauron's schedule a bit, to smash his enemies before they learn how to use the ring and supplant him. It isn't discussed at the Council of Elrond, but the fool's hope of sending the ring to Mt. Orodruin is actually the ONLY way Sauron can be defeated, which recapitulates the situation in the film's version of Saruman and the Battle of Helm's Deep. Sauron is daily waxing in armed strength, while his enemies have waned in power (think of the description of Minas Tirith when Pippin first experiences it). His massed power would roll over the armies of the west if something significant doesn't happen to cripple him. I love the way the continuum of Middle Earth follows the medieval concept of history, that the body of current wisdom and knowledge is but a fraction of what has been lost from some golden age of insight. Of course, it makes sense considering JRRT's background and explicit intentions for the work.
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I'm probably gonna sound like an idiot for saying this, but did anybody else notice that Gollum's pupils are smaller than Smeagol's?
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Yes, Ribbons, I was actually going to point that out - as someone or other pointed it out months ago, or I might have taken longer to notice. Instead of the coming and going of the greenish light that Tolkien describes, film-Gollum's pupils become small to indicate his evil, and film-Smeagol's become larger. It is fascinating to watch - and a good clue in case you don't quite know which self is dominant at any given moment. And by the way, isn't that a brilliant touch of him dropping the stone into the water while gloating about the hobbitses' deaths in the preview material? ***Instinct, even in the 21st century, is said to be an invaluable aid in the interrogation of prisoners. And since Tolkien makes so much of it, I still wish that aspect of Faramir had been retained. For my money, it would have been just as interesting to show that Faramir's instincts are to trust Frodo, but (as in the book) to portray him as showing caution until he can test his instincts. Will withhold further judgment until November....
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Sure no worries MorGy, normally I just wait until daylight to throw (I mean 'escort') the trolls out, although JD has been complaining about a lack of repeat patronage, so I might have to think about that... They're almost as bad as the traditional Valaraukar (flaming of course...) Sambucca night, my goodness what a handful they are, (literally, I mean as there are only a couple of them left.) Anyhoo, why do I need to get back to work? When was the last big night in the club anyway MorGy? I think the light of the Silmarils are starting to drive some customers away quite frankly... And don't worry about MorGy, Orson, he loves sycophants. Oh and Harryluvatar has been making some moves has he Runelord? Right. Where's my fathers sword? I know I left it around here somewhere... You should know you're always welcome to come and join me for some sparring sessions, tanning sessions or whatever... Cheers.
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Yes mellyn, it is with great pleasure that I announce our beloved Aragorn
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Now if someone will just explain why someone in the midst of ferocious battle would sheath his sword... which ought to be pretty mucky by this point. The better to be streamlined while falling off cliffs, which his prescience has foretold?
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...you'll have your question answered. Oh, that's right, you were only going to watch the divida once then it would collect dust. C'mon, you were wrong about the sword. Be a sport now and quit stomping those sour grapes.
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Well I see that Xo posted the scan of the front page of today's Miami Herald Weekend section that I e-mailed him this morning. It sure came as a surprise to me to open this morning's paper and find the Phial of Galadriel shining in my eyes. It's BLINDING, I tell ya!
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Sep 05, 2003 1:56:09 PM CDT
Welp, it's obvious NOONE here respects my au-tho-ri-tah
by pallando blue
Cause there y'all go, posting away for DAYS when I kindly ordered you not to. Fine. (And now a hosing? Can't shake ME that easily.) So, I am forced to jump all over the damn place. Sorry if yer already sick of a couple of these topics--I'm at least a week behind! *** elanor, I'd like to thank you for sticking up for Richard T. Saves me the embarrassment of calling his voice "sexy." :) So, Solomon-like, the Companion Question I'll split into two answers: Cast & Crew. Cast choice, for me, is of course Cate, my blessed sweet Cate, trapped in a marriage that is not with me -- a tragedy. (Apparently the disposable one-use pointy ears are made of a sugar/gelatin mix. Just INVITES nibbling!) Crew: A near tie between RT and Philippa Boyens, with Boyens just edging Taylor out. You wanna talk sexy NZ accents, elanor? Identical initials notwithstanding, PB's got the breathy accent that PB quite likey. On a pure content level, both of em would be fantastic for a private LOTR. For any OTHER movie, though, it'd have to be PJ. He might be TOO close to LOTR for just gabbin' on it, but I'd love to be flick buddies with that guy, jes' seein' movies and talkin' movies. That, I bet, would be a blast. It might also be fun to sit next to Barrie Osbourne, just so you could keep saying "So, THOSE are the Rohans?" and "Look! The Rohans!" while giving him hitsies on the arm. ;) *** Can't remember who was on what side of the fence on Theoden, so I'll just say thanks to whoever it was came to his defense. (Forgive the potentially overstated and redundant following blather, but it's one of my favorite T2T rants!) I've always been flummoxed by folx who saw his character as weakened from the book. He's more human than the book to be sure, but he's in no way "weak." He makes every correct strategic decision--it's the Fellowship members who are wrong in their evaluations. But, because they've been our heroes for going on 4 hours of film, the audience is still seeing through their eyes, and Theoden is still the New Character about whom they haven't made up their minds yet. Theoden hadn't become a Hero for them yet--in fact, had just recently had his bacon saved by the Heroes--and so when he disagrees with the Fellowship members, and publicly pulls rank on Aragorn, it seems a lot of audience members simply read a familiar "cue" that Theoden is to be the weak character link in the coming storylines. Because in almost every other H-wood movie of the past 20 years, characters and motivations are always telegraphed as such (when was the last time you couldn't extrapolate a H-wood character's entire role from his/her first 5-15 minutes, not including blatant plot twists?). My point being, it seems the folx who were "disappointed" by Theoden were kinda tricked there by PJ--who's very familiar with the usual "cues," but likes to use them against themselves--when in fact Theoden's strengths are all right there on the screen. I picked up on em the first time, and it took repeat viewings for me to see what T's detractors were pointing to. Not a boast or "fannier than thou," just sayin, I thought it was obvious. * First, a bulk of Rohan's forces have followed Eomer into exile, perhaps to return but days away at the moment. Saruman is being bolder with his raids, and Edoras is no place to withstand a siege. He moves to HD, instead of engaging the enemy in the open field (which was Gandalf's, Aragorn's, and even Gimli's recommendation). Theoden recognized their general lack of intelligence (ha ha--from here on out I mean the CIA use of the word) on the enemy's numbers, and doesn't gamble with his people's lives. The move to HD is ironically both the single greatest strategic decision of the film and the one that most sets up Theoden as the poor strategist, in pure glossed-over film language (Gimli: "Grrrr! Stand and fight!" Gandalf: "...he's leading them into a trap" etc.) But Good Grief what a slaughter if he had taken their counsel! * Later in HD, when Aragorn provides the numbers on the enemy--and that they're moving en masse toward HD right then... Again, Theoden is fast and decisive, not arrogant or overconfident. Look at his face, when he says "Ten thousand...!" In that one look, Theoden (bravo, Mr. Hill, BRAVO! And PJ's direction!) has (1) calculated the inevitability of their total and utter destruction, and (2) thrown all that aside so that his men see only strength, "Let them come!" also knowing that if there IS to be even the slimmest hope for survival, it lay in the strength of the Rohan's (snicker) hearts, not numbers. The rest of that scene of preparations is not Theoden's "overconfidence" on display, it's his display of confidence before his people, his not letting them despair, or at least providing an example of hope they can look to, and aspire to. Anything less would be absolutely irresponsible, and even cruel--the King has no right to openly despair, he must lead. This is what he's trying to teach Aragorn and the Fellowship dudes through their exchanges (in fact, I hold that their entire relationship up to the last stand is Theoden giving Aragorn an impromptu So You Want To Be A King clinic), then finally overtly doing so when he draws him in for the whisper that boils down to "Will you PLEASE shut the fricking frack up! I KNOW we won't make it out of this alive! Whining will NOT change that! Our last moments will not be those of cringing! (Unless, of course, you're a woman in the caves. ;)" In ALL of those scenes, Theoden's dialogue is for his men to hear, not to actually answer Gimli's Uruk-warnings, etc. * And, actually, they DO stand a chance for survival (at least after the Elves shore up their numbers, and provide some much needed Uruk-thinning archers). Saruman in his arrogance didn't send his army with siege towers, catapults, etc.; he sent his army to move in haste, carrying only ladders, ballistas and other travel-easy war machines-lite. If "that's all you can conjure, Saruman," than HD could indeed have held them off. Two fronts to defend: take out the finite number of ladders, and the wall is unscalable; then just defend the keep's gate, which has limited access on the narrow causeway. That line's not overconfidence or poor sense of strategy, that's a realistic glimmer of hope and another show of strength for his officers to hear. BUT. Theoden's only real defeat as a strategist is Saruman's winning of the spy game (and ask Sun Tzu--that's where a war's won). Theoden doesn't know of Saruman's secret weapon, and Saruman knows just where to set it off. In Theoden's defense, noooooobody in Middle-earth--including his #2, Grima--knew of the blasting fire of Orthanc, or its capabilities. Once that went off, however, the Uruk's greatest advantage, their numbers, was far too overwhelming. Even then, after that moment of stunned disbelief, it's Theoden who immediately assesses the new situation, and reacts accordingly. And again and again, with every inevitable forced retreat. The Deeping Wall had to a great extent neutralized the enemy's advantage of numbers, but once gone... hell, ten thousand hobbits would have a pretty good chance against a couple hundred humans and elves. * Not only does Theoden lead through command, but consistently through action. He's at the head of the column that charges the warg riders, and he himself goes down to the keep's gate, the nearest front line, to help out. He even takes a spear to the shoulder for his troubles, but gives a killing blow back for it, before being pulled back by his officers. Where the HELL is Theoden ever WEAK in this movie!? (i.e., post-exorcism >ahem<) * His "Where is the horse and the rider?" speech, and "How did it come to this?" ...Once again, it seemed some had taken the scene (especially the latter line) as another "cue" toward Theoden's weakness, even (so I've read elsewhere--good god!) cowardice. Gah! Ridiculous. The PJ mantra "make it real" has been applied just as much to the characters as it has to Weta. These are all larger than life figures, even moreso on the page. What the screenwriters have consistently done is ground these larger than life figures--not shackle them to ordinariness, not reduce the scope of their feats, but keep them from being... bah, I'm running out of gas finally (and the crowd went wild)... "completely unrealistic," I suppose works. For me, Theoden's monologue as his armor's being dressed, his semi-private moment of humanity, only serves to underscore his... BAH! ...character, let's go with character, throughout the rest of the film. Even the Great Men are just Men, called upon to do Great Things. (my cartoon lightbulb goes *ding!*) Hmmm! Tie this into Aragorn's growth toward King, into Faramir's initial miscalculation of the Ring's power, into Sam's (lovely I say!) speech, and by goodness I just hit on a damn Theme! Okay, a bit of a forced point perhaps, but I suppose arguable. Getting back to Theoden, tho--I think someone was discussing "Henry V" up/down there somewhere. (I'm a big fan of Branagh's take, too.) Look to Henry's monologue the night before Agincourt, he asks similar questions of himself, and to be a King. I hear Theoden's "...And you trust your King, Gamling?" in that speech, and Henry's "Not today, o Lord, not today!" plead for strength in Theoden's. Not direct parallels, but there are parallels--and Henry isn't seen as weaker for his moments of emotional introspection before battle. Hell, while I'm on the Henry V kick, what else is the famous Agincourt speech but rousing up the fight in his men's hearts, in the face of overwhelming numbers? "...not one man more!" EXACTLY what Theoden is trying to accomplish, from the moment he says "Let them come!" Henry, though, didn't have an upstart newbie king-in-training constantly undermining the rah-rah effort, and did have--gotta admit it--a much better writer ;). * Finally, at the end, in the Hornburg does he finally relent the brave face, and show some despair. The real crux of that scene for me, is that is when Aragorn truly steps up and assumes a Kingly role. He is continuing what Theoden had began, and finally shakes Theoden back awake when he says "Ride out with me." The look in Theoden's eyes, the fire that just blazes from that grim smirk... My GOD. (Big PJ quibble: I SO wish Gandalf's voice wasn't inserted here, absolutely unnecessary and actually undermines the moment. Hell, keep the look to the brightening window, keep the choir, but don't telegraph the cavalry! G already gave his "look for me" instructions, we remember!) Buh, anyway. My aside aside, that is such an iconic moment--Aragorn is right then a King, and Theoden acknowledges him for it. "Let this be the hour we draw swords together" ...that sends shivers down my spine E.V.E.R.Y. time. The King of Rohan to the King of Gondor. The hour THEY draw swords together. Their final ride, their defiant charge into certain death, for glory, for wrath, for ruin... That, sports fans, is the stuff of ancient lays and legends. Holy crap. What a scene. ** Blah di blah di blah, how I do go on. As you might be able to tell, I'm a Fan o' Theoden. :) But in my attempt to make up for lost TBing with quantity if not quality, I am now forced to address other schtuff from this fantastic TB in a different post (you're welcome) some other time (you're welcome). All this audible typing from my quarters has become a mite suspicious in these real world parts... I shall flee to the hills rather than stand and fight. Gimli: "Yyyyyes!"
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Personally, for me, gross continuity errors like Pip's magically bound then unbound then bound again hands are unfortunate, but amusing. But this kind of quibbling over, for an immediate example, Aragorn's sword being sheathed or unsheathed and when and why, is a missing-the-point obsessiveness along the lines of "Yeah yeah, Vader is Luke's dad, but Lando was the orginal owner of the Millennium Falcon!" ...In other words, WHO #*$!&#! CARES? Does this kind of thing REALLY pull you out of the movie? So there's no confusion, I'm wagging my virtual finger at BOTH o' you! ...And, please, Orson, enough with the studying of Massive agents milling in the corners. Why? What's the use? *** Don't forget, right after PJ's spearchucking, look for Barrie Osbourne's -- as one of the "Rohans" ;) -- rock hurling! Almost identical shot as PJ's: just head and shoulders filling the frame, looking/throwing to screen lower-right. Luckily the Wardrobe Department remembered to remove his glasses. And, of course, in the armory, there's Alan Lee, Dan Hennah, and maybe others as "Rohans" who've seen too many winters.
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I agree with 99% of what you say, so won't try to rephrase it. I have argued in earlier posts that "Is this all you have..." is not hubris but a correct assessment of the situation, and that he is quite right to slap down Aragorn for his morale-undermining behavior in front of the lesser ranks. (And for those who have argued that Aragorn somehow comes back from his fall filled with fresh purpose, flinging open the doors, etc. - then WHY does he go on as he does, until Theoden pulls him up short?) The role reversal - where Aragorn becomes his equal in kingliness, as opposed to an action superhero - is just before they ride out, when it is he who is heartening Theoden. And yes, if ONLY they could have done without the Gandalf voice-over. In fact, I'll go one farther and say that Gandalf's telling the exact hour of his arrival could have been dispensed with; it's just too pat.
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Hey, don't forget Viggo's son as one of the Rohirrim lads receiving his rusty sword! ** C'mon Pallando, you know DoT and I went round and round about it so I was just teasing her. I never cared about it either and to quote Brutha Dave when he, Joey Woey, Moaters and myself watched Two Towers week before last, "Thanks Moaters (he actually used his REAL name), I'd never have noticed that now I'll look for it every time, you bastige!" Anyway, I agree with ya, it's no big deal to me either and doesn't lessen my enjoyment one whit. Now, if Merry doesn't use his Blade of Westernesse...THAT'S A DIFFERENT KETTLE OF FISH!! {[:^)
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Well put Pallando, o verbose one! Yup, I always thought it groovy that Theoden was giving Aragorn a short course in "Being Kingly 101." ** Hmmm, I'll check but I always though Gandalf said he'd show up at the crack o' dawn in the book too. Heh, yes, Gandalf's voiceover had me thinking I'd wandered into a Mel Brooks movie for a minute! Picture the lot of them looking around to see where the ghostly voice was coming from. ** Just viddied the TTT SEV screen caps over at TORN. Excellent! I love the look of those DVD screens. Also, here's a poser; since my Fellowship and TTT theatrical versions now stand side by sode (between the Argonath, natch!) it caught my attention that we see Frodo on the top spine of Fellowship and Old Gollum on the Two Towers...SOOOO, I'm betting we'll see Aragorn on the RoTK theatrical DVD (In only 50 short weeks!)! Whatcha think folks?
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I actually left OUT two points I wanted to make! Small ones though, and not really about Theoden. (1) In the end, it was Saruman's lack of intelligence (heh) that led to his downfall. He had no idea that Gandalf was out rounding up Eomer and a new army of Riders. Ooops, his spy had been kicked out by then! Even more fatal an error, neither did he know of, or ever predict, the doings in Fangorn, having long ignored Fangorn as anything other than a source of fuel. If the Huorns are going to be in the SEV, one line I'd LOVE to hear is Gandalf referencing to Aragorn et al. Merry and Pippin's role, "like small pebbles that start an avalanche..." Hmm mm yeah! So, in the end, Saruman had but a little intelligence, which is a dangerous thing. (2) People bugging on the "Olympic Torch" Uruk. Maybe nobody here, but plenty have annoyed me with sniggering about the sparkly torch. Why sparkly? Look funny!Because it's not a TORCH it's a FUSE. The single most important device of the entire assault, will NOT be subject to the whims of an open flame. A fuse, a clump or a wick infused with doses "blasting fire" and ignited, maintaining a hot burn and not to be doused by wind (in fact, wind's good for it). And not a long rope to be dragged through the mud and stomped on by an idiot grunt, but hand-delivered, held aloft, and moving as fast as orc legs could pump. The "sparkly torch" was not a whimsical visual decision, it was the logical military decision. Honestly, not one I'd have thought of. But then again, I'm no Saruman, or Richard Taylor ;). ...Ah, had to get that off my chest ONCE. :) *** morG, I definitely think the ROTK spine will have Viggo's mug on it. Now, here's another poser, of absolutely ZERO consequence! FOTR: the Limited Edition soundtrack, red fake-leather; the SEV case, green fake leather. T2T: LE soundtrack, blue fake-leather; SEV case, red fake-leather. So: What color will the ROTK Limited Edition soundtrack and SEV case fake-leather be? :) *** And also, since I was WAY off assuming the Collector's T2T set would be more bookends (it's The Two Towers, I mean, come ON!), who wants to guess what the ROTK Collector's set will contain, now that the door's thrown open to character statuettes as well?
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As I believe there
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I guess that's why there are no new ones since yesterday. SWOON ALERT! There is some astonishing swoony-goodness over at TORN. Boromir and Faramir in white-tree armor and manly comraderie! And sweet hobbity goodness, too. And one of the best Legolas shots I've seen in a great while. Uh oh, there I go again
.....thunk!***(after a lengthy and pervy dream she rises to say) Huzzah for Miami Mofo and your TORN scan-scoop! -
Sep 06, 2003 1:28:40 PM CDT
ust got back, and the TbB's even vaster and more erudite ...
by irritable
Hope it's not all over yet ....MorGoth, the answer to your question a while back is *El_Barstardo* (a stern opponent of discriminatory courtesy to female posters). BTW, I trust you were not offended at my raking over the coals of your disastrous date with Arien - not that you would fail to disclose the scorching details to Miranda O.*****Orson#1, it seems JRRT was shooting for an Anglo-Saxon version of the Kalavala (or at least, the Volsungsaga). He was most distainful of Shakespeare and later English writers, including Milton. On the other hand, Phillip Pullman (a writer rather distainful of JRRT) has recently completed "His Dark Materials" a "trilogy" which is explicitly inspired - as the name implies - by Milton's "Paradise Lost", but unconsciously, as any reader can detect, deeply influenced by LotR. Soon to be a major motion picture franchise. (As an entertaining exercise in schadenfreude, count how many pages of "HDM" it takes for Pullman to repeat all of the supposed literary sins which PP accuses JRRT of committing.)
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That's my favorite of the lot, I think, though I am certainly looking forward to all that manly camaraderie in Osgiliath. ***This TB is really getting far too long, especially with the latest hosing. WHEN will Harry start giving us more frequent reports? I have to laugh at those people who think AICN is top-heavy with LOTR. ***Obediently, I freeze-framed through the Aragorn and Sharku encounter - twice. I can see the place where Aragorn must have sheathed his sword, though cut off by the lower screen. What I cannot fathom is why. The better to be scooped up by Sharku? Because wouldn't it make more sense to hang onto his sword (as he seems to have miraculously done while being bowled over - uninjured - by a Warg weighing at least a ton), take a step back, and lop the approaching Sharku's head off - the sort of thing we have seen him do brilliantly before? They wanted a floating Aragorn, and a floating Aragorn is what we got.... ***Am less bothered by unbound hobbit hands because it doesn't affect events one way or another, and goes by in a flash, though it would be nice if they could fix it. As far as hobbit flubs go, I would like to know what happened in the cave, in that intense little scene between Frodo and Sam. For the entire scene, Sam is on one side of Frodo, and yet when Faramir enters, he rises from the other side. Is there something missing that will be put back in the SEV, or did they just reverse the film? November is much too far away....
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I would love to have you expand on your last post, as I was extremely underwhelmed and rather put off by Pullman's trilogy, which seemed rather to be an anti-Tolkien work on the spiritual level. Nor do I want to debate all that with those who love it, but I'd at least like to hear said argument.
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DoT, Philip Pullman has been quoted (on readily Google-able pages) denigrating aspects of JRRT's writing. In particular, he denies that Tolkien created any credible 'authentic' characters. George Eliot is offered as the counter-example. I don't know whether the LitCrit community, of which PP is an auxilliary member, has entirely moved past the entertainingly sneering criticism published by that unlamented hypocritical jerk Edmund Wilson in the late 1950s. Like some other readers I've always thought JRRT to be least effective in conveying the interior states of his characters in a convincing way, particularly female characters. (Even taking into account that many major characters are not conventional humans). It's as if Henry James, Proust, Joyce et al had never been published. I guess it's quite possible that Tolkien had never read any modern novels before finishing LotR. Tolkien explained away these shortcomings, which I'm sure he recognised, by pointing out that he was not writing a Modern Novel, rather an "Heroic Romance" (as if two-dimensional characters were required in such works) also by pointing out that he was depicting medieval society at war, a time when fewer female protagonists would be active. More significant was the fact that Tolkien had no editor: no-one at Allen & Unwin was brave enough to suggest such a thing to an eminent Oxford don. This is almost unheard of today - though there is some suggestion that JKRowling tolerates no editing. Pullman has a strong editor. FWIW, my own view is that Tolkien, for all his other unusual and striking gifts, was not a person with great insight into adult psychology, Thus his long membership of various "boys clubs". However, his best writing - usually involving Saruman and Denethor, classic 'Oxford Senior Professors' - insightfully describes some intriguing elderly intellectual despots. **** Back to Pullman. My own impression is that he laboriously attempts to make Lyra, Will, Mrs Coulter, etc quirky, complex modern folk - and ends up with characters not much in advance of BBC Childrens TV Stereotypes. Ian McEwan he is not ... despite his obvious ambition. Like Tolkien, he perks things up every time he dives back into adventure narrative. The central idea of the escaping Dust (i.e. human creativity) is even more logically messy than JRRT's concept of the characteristics of the One Ring. Many supporting characters are just a collection of cliches. The climax is a series of anti-climaxes. In contrast, Tolkien relentlessly filled in all the cracks with multilayered detail and background history and came up with a pretty intense climax (followed by several leisurely anti-climaxes). The best quality in 'HDM' was that, like JRRT, PP wrote a page-turner, with a strong emphasis on a brilliantly conceived imaginary History, with tons of clever detail (the daemons being a great example). ****Of course, I'm entirely unqualified to offer these bold opinions.
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Re-reading your post, DoT you were pointing out the 'anti-Tolkien' nature of His Dark Materials. PP is a militant athiest and seems more than a little put out by the fact that Tolkien was a deeply religious person, yet still a highly educated intellectual and a fiction writer! I have nothing against militant athiests (actually, I'm probably a member of the club) but of all books infused with deep spirituality, LotR is one shining example of a work which does not preach and which illustrates serious spriritual values by example and without editorializing. Contrast the bloody Narnia books. I agree with you that Philip Pullman's insistence on forcing his beliefs (or rather, non-beliefs) down the reader's throat is kinda obnoxious. The professor's humility and discretion about his equally strong personal views is, for me, something to admire - even though I don't happen to share his religious beliefs.
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You have, in fact, touched on some of the reasons I was put off by Pullman - including the intellectual arrogance/coldness that shows through in his writing. I would perhaps argue that deep individual psychology has no place in a Heroic Romance but can be easily layered in by the modern reader (interestingly, I believe the reason the heroic romances have lasted is that they DO get the psychology right, whether or not it is overt), and that Tolkien still has far more lasting things to say about the human condition than Pullman (or possibly even Eliot) despite lack of long interior monologues.... And when he does have a Meaningful Line, it stays with you - more so than almost any writer I can think of. I certainly can't think of one line from Pullman that I thought was worth memorizing, and certainly none that I would incorporate into my moral decision-making, as I do with Tolkien's. In fact, his style on the whole was quite lacking.... The "daemons" were amazingly creative (and the one truly engaging thing in the novel, though they clearly had an enormous downside), and the subtle knife, and any number of devices, but the God-on-a-stretcher bit was to gag on, nor can I imagine a more horrible view of the afterlife than he comes up with. For all the spin Pullman tries to put on his conclusion, it still feels more like the product of an inner despair, and for all Tolkien talks of "the long defeat," you can sense the inner joy that this is not all there is. Or at least, that's my take on the two. I, too, have heard of Pullman's anti-Tolkien expressions, and all I can say is, after reading his books, no wonder. Tolkien would be a real threat to Pullman's way of thinking.
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I didn't have any outside confirmation that Pullman was a militant atheist, but certainly thought it showed through with every stroke of his pen. He seemed the type that is so busy hating God and all His (perceived) institutions that he is utterly blind to any strengths to be found in faith, or to the reality that equally intelligent or "intellectual" humans might have come up with different answers than his. I wonder whether the films of his books will be so relentlessly anti-clerical?
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You've made a point about something which always puzzled me, DoT. The first time I read LotR (long, long ago) I couldn't understand why it was so full of resonances for a book which involved some questionable (or at least deeply unfashionable) writing. I thought first it had something to do with the the glimpses of a vast, sad prior history or the astonishing names JRRT came up with - like half remembered fragments from a Northern European Dreamtime. Later I found out the names were A Very Big Deal to JRRT and he also had some strong instincts about submerged race/tribal memories. But more recently, I think its the unspoken spiritual message which makes the book so powerful for so many people. One great thing about the Movies is that the cast and crew have been able to gracefully slide around some of the less well-judged aspects of the book while enhancing the big central ideas, which Tolkien rarely spelled out: particularly the idea of uncomplaining heroic self-sacrifice.
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How I wish I had one or both of you with me today at Bland & Ignoble. I wandered in, looking for Al Franken's "Liars" book which I figured would be good subway reading (it's sold out and not yet in paperback anyway). But of course I got distracted by one thing and another. Remembered Miami praising "The Art of the Two Towers so I figured what the heck, I'll get it. Couldn't find it in the Tolkien section so I went to Information. They sent me way over to the other side of the store where they supposedly have racks of TV and film
companion books. Didn't find it there, either. In fact nothing at all on LOTR, but tons on Matrix and OZ. An employee in that area recognizes the look on my face and asks "may I help you?" (his name is Elston and he is at least 50, holier-than-thou but that's to be expected I suppose) I say, yes, I am looking
for a companion book to the Lord of the Rings movies. Elston's snooty expression sours to outright disdain. "That's in JUVENILE isn't it?" he snarks. My face sours too, but to massive
perplexity. Elston notices, but says nothing further, attempting to stare me away. Then he adds "what? You don't think it's juvenile?" I say "the Lord of the Rings films, aren't they considered mass-market films? For adults?" Somewhere deep inside a light goes on and Elston
realizes he has made a mistake. But not quite the one I think he has made. He says, sans any hint of apology "I thought you said Harry Potter" I say no, Tolkien. He says, dripping venom, "oh,
well, similar material". AAAAAA! He then starts to resentfully explain where the fiction section is (which of course, I already know) so I cut him off saying "Nevermind. I'll go ask
someone who knows" and I steam off. The noive! Finally I find it in a special coffee-table book section. My Gollum wants to march back to Elston and explain how his personal taste ought not to cloud his ability to help his customers much less cloud his ability to differentiate one book from another but my Smeagol tells me it's not worth poisoning
my day any further. If either of you had been with me, though, I would have told him a thing or two! Then again, had either of you been with me we would have found it without asking!***Now, who can tell me how I can get my paws on that SFX magazine? We WANTS IT! Gotta find out what's up with the Dwarf runes on Anduril! What will MorGoth say???? -
SFX is out in britain tomorrow to all the none subscribers of the mag. (i keep telling myself to subscribe to get it early, but i never do.) i'm gonna be cuing up though. ** as to theoden, i think i'm starting to agree with you pallando, but i just wished the keep had been better stocked to defend. ah well. but now we won't see Haldir in the third film, because i'm not sure his characters important enough for flashbacks. as long as they don't decide to get rid of any of the other important elves.
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That would be why so many scholarly adults write books FOR adults about his work.... Book stores must be desperate for help. At least Borders gives Tolkien a big display up front, aside from the shelves of him in the fantasy section. And the idea of lumping LOTR with "Harry Potter"! Someone should perhaps clue these types in to the fact that, unlike HP or "His Dark Materials," LOTR is about adults, with only one underage minor character, was written FOR an adult audience, and is best appreciated (though not solely appreciated) by adults, who have acquired enough experience (or wisdom, or sadness) to know what Tolkien is talking about.
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Please check your e-mail. Important message from yours truly. ***LotR rules!!!!!!!!! (had to get on topic) ***Moaters -- good work unhosing this stupid thing.
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NOONE reads my dang post! Elanor, O Exquisite One, I posted this info some time back but here
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About the SFX article, I mean. Besides, it's about "The Visual Companions" author's visit to the Pelennor -- something I don't want to hear about. I'd much rather read about Quint's visit. There are cool pics in the article however. ***Speaking of Quint's visit, since SFX printed this article about a set visit, can't Harry go ahead and post Quint's? I swear that New Line must have something HUGE hanging over Harry's head. Like if you don't do EXACTLY what we say, we won't let you have the FotR extended version, the T2T extended version AND RotK for this year's butt-numb-a-thon. ***morGy (why the capital M?), received your e-mail. Expect a reply soon. Looking forward to meeting you Sunday aft/eve.
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He asked me to let the Tailenders know he's still out there, but busy with family and new job, though looking forward immensely to ROTK. He will join us when he can.
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It reminds me of the classic TE talk backs of my youth, back in the days of yore. Well the finish line is almost in sight, so to speak. What a wild ride it's been. Ah the memories, like Ninja Galadriel and her corn cob or when Uh... Clem buggered off and came back as Pallando Blue pretending to be a troll, and whatever happened to Pip's Diamond or Sir Mordred or the rest of the old mob? So many comrades fallen along the wayside. So who is the longest serving, surviving TEer? Would I be right in looking in your direction morGy?
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I just read at the Houghton Mifflin site through TORn's link, that Brian Sibly's LotR tie-in book for this year will be an updated/upgraded map book rather than The Official Movie Guide. GHAAAA!!!!!!!!! This utterly upsets the natural balance of things -- I have his first two OMG's, as well as Jude Law's vastly inferior Visual Companions. She will have a V.C. for RotK, and there will be my much anticipated 'Art of RotK' to go along with the previous two 'Art of' books. My plan was to have all three V.C's, O.M.G.'s and Art of's, for a total of (you guessed it) NINE books. Now that plan is dust, ashes and dust. Woe is me. [And don't try to comfort me by saying that Sibley's map book or that Weapons book by another author is an acceptable substitute for the O.M.G. It is NOT, I tell ya!]
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Sep 09, 2003 11:48:33 AM CDT
>sniffle< Aw BG, yer gonna get me all misty an' choked up, now..
by pallando blue
Sigh. Ninja Galadriel, whither art thou? For a bit of a trip, look up her articles still archived in their own byline at TORN, and check out how well she tracked. Makes me want to dig around for those old TEs she wandered into. Yeah, I'll say it--her Tailend treatment is still sore with me! We could have had our very own resident Insider, instead she was rode out on a rail! Sure her ninja "persona" was that of a haughty arrogant bitch, but the bitch had the pre-Fellowship DIRT! She was on SET during the ORIGINAL SHOOT! But no-o-o-o, SOME folx just couldn't put up with a corn cob... ;) Okay, I admit it, she unearthed a bit of the Submissive Gimp in me, what can I say. In the year 2000, I was so easily a slave to spoilers. :) *** Mofo: Replied. And what a MONSTER game you guys put on Saturday night! Were you there!? A kuh-lassic, to be referenced for the Ages. Next up for VT: hosting Texas A&M a week from Thursday... *** DOT and irritable, thanks for the Pullman Primer. I rarely if ever read sci-fi and/or fantasy, the ones I do have to come heeeeavily recommended on several trusted fronts, reviews and (more importantly) word of mouth. The HDM set had been one of those, and on my To Read list (which grows faster than I can reduce it, along with the unread books on my shelves). Don't think I'll scratch them off completely now, but let's just say you bumped them down the roster a little. The other authors on my list thank you! :) *** Hrm, was there somthin else... Well, maybe later. Anyway. If I can just turn around ONE person on Theoden, the occasional endless raving's worth it. :) All will be happy to know, however, that I'm attempting cutting my caffeine intake by half. That should help. I give it a week.
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Eh? You mean Uh_clem was around in the days of Ninja Galadriel? Lessee, iffen I recall, it were Ingold
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He, he...reminds me of that line in the GWAR song "I've destroyed a million worlds, but I still have time to cry!" O yes SmeaGOLD, it's true and you know it...you're a LUSTER-ER! Tch, poor Ninja Galadriel...hey, too bad ElBarstardo wasn't around then! "Every time that Ninja Galadriel chick post, you Tolkien geeks trip all over yourselves...blah and blah." ** Hey BG! Yes, it is a peach of a TB, innit? Hmm...I remember Mordred checked in once or twice but he pretty much detested what PJ has done so he lost interest. Pip's D? Dunno mate, hope she's doing all right though. Hey, speaking of missing souls, where the Udun has JD1866 and My Sweet Alice gone off to? HMPF, perhaps I should ring a few doorbells. Dammit BG, you don't do much posting either but at LEAST you showed up yerself (unlike a certain, oh, I dunno, MALARKY BJARKI!). Fear not brutha BG, we've still got the post-ROTK TB's and you KNOW PJ is gunna do the Hobbit! Heh, ten years from now, we'll all be bellyaching over who will be cast as Luthien Tinuviel in "The Tale of Beren and Luthien."
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Luthien Tinuviel will be played by Evan Rachel Wood.
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... We wants to sit between Gollum and Mithrandir! Yes, we does! Can you imagine the repartee?! "Give us some popcorn you nasty old conjurerrerrssss". "Smeagol! If I have to tell you one more time about climbing about the back of my chair and bothering the other viewers I'm going to ignite an unnatural conflagration under your skinny little posterior now sit down and give me some peace from your slavering!" *** And now, in honor of this weekend's impending rendevous; a little BS interlude... "Men walkin' 'long the railroad tracks, Goin' someplace there's no goin' back,
Highway patrol choppers comin' up over the ridge, Hot soup on a campfire under the bridge,
Shelter line stretchin' round the corner, Welcome to the new world order, Families sleepin' in their cars in the southwest, No home no job no peace no rest." From: "The Ghost of Tom Joad"...
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But nobody's kiddin' nobody about where it goes. I'm sittin' down here in the campfire light. Searchin' for the ghost of Tom Joad." ***Moaters, I highly doubt that Bruce will play that one -- it's a little too intimate for a stadium show, but ya never know. I do expect at least one from 'Nebraska' though. ***Did you know that the video for 'Highway Patrolman' consists of scenes from Sean Penn's 'Indian Runner' with David Morse and some guy named Viggo something? Yup, that Strider fella.
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Three more days until Moaters and I see Bruce Springsteen and The E Street Band live in concert at FedEx Field!!!!!!!!! ***What? You were expecting something else? Oh, OK: It's Wednesday! Fourteen weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!!
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My e-mail going through the past couple weeks? I'm STILL deleting frigging virus spams, and (worse) "returned mail" that I never sent, so I wouldn't be surprised if y'all's e-mail system's were by now rejecting my replies outright. I'm wondering if I'm going to have to dump that hotmail account entirely... *** Back on topic: Hokies Rule! (What? Oh! Sorry) ahem--LOTR RULES! And that DOES suck about the tie-in book selection this year. Why oh why would they dodge the matching set. All I can figure is, with everything being wrapped up in this last movie, and so much going on, they felt they couldn't possibly cover it even as obliquely as the other OMGs without revealing too much. Still, wouldn't mind if they just pushed an OMG (OMG!) back to come out with "The Art Of ROTK," instead of these replacements. Both of which, I'm sure, I'll be purchasing. It's like Houghton Mifflin is a frigate coming to port, and there I am on the dock, waiting, in my fishnet stockings and feather boa... *** According to TORN (which if you've read you can probably skip the rest of this post, which now that I think of it probably means all of you), the ROTK trailer IS coming on the 26th! "Secondhand Lions" was pushed up to the 19th due to strong buzz, but the ROTK trailer's F/X finishing schedule was still aimed at the 26th, so there'll be a wider release of "SL" (to stay all acronymious) on that date, with the trailer, AND New Line will be hawking it as such! So, this time next week expect SL to be all over the place, and the week after that SL-w/-ROTK to be all over the place, AGAIN. And apparently the trailer will have..... SHELOB?!?
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Has anyone else seen the TTTSEV images over at the official movie site?! Has Harry posted anything?! Have I had my head under a rock or what?!
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Harry doesn
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I sent you an e-mail about an hour ago. [Btw, Pallando, received yours yesterday no problem. See ya Monday.(PS. I didn't go to the game.)] And for the record morGoth, although I had been reading the LotR TB's since they began, I didn't start posting until the fall of 2000. How could you have possibly forgotten that? I certainly haven't forgotten that you were the first to welcome me after my post. Interestingly, it was the Mofette who suggested I do so when things got kind of quiet around here when she left for college. Also, don't waste your sniffles on me! May I remind you that all of my old posts were also deleted in the mass AICN Downunder banning. Oh the pain!!!!!!!!! ;~) See ya in a few days! ***I see that it's time to pay a visit to the official site. Later, y'all.
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Almost forgot - do you still use your poster e-mail?
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(Or was I off by one, Ingold?hmm.) ...I don't think I ever took the time to welcome Sabster. How do! Hope you haven't been turned off already by SOME peoples' impersonations of a leaky windbag (Hi! That's me!). Am I right in figuring out you're typing in Denmark? I do enjoy the international representation in these parts, I tell ya. ...And a hullo to Xyzan, and a hullo to Runelord, and a hullo to Ingold and Skyway and the rest o you and... heck, any lurkers left out there. (I keep getting the feeling we're being watched a lot more than we think we are...) Jump on in, fer crying out loud! Don't worry about being out-Tolkiened or anything. I'm completely faking it three-fourths of the time, and nobody's seemed to mind too much so far. ;) *** Always trying to pin something on the pointy-eared, aintcha morG? I couldn't say if it was our green-clad Canadian compadre what came up with "corn cob" but I know for a FACT that the chief Ninja out-on-a-rail-rider was... [cue Bach's Fugue in D (I think, the big dramatic organ in horror movies)] ...SKYWAY MOATERS! [curtain peels back to reveal Moaters hunched over the organ!] Yep, ol connexxions man, I DO remember, cause you an me went round and round HARD that time! :) You didn't know me, I didn't know you, and man did we lay into each other. In fact, that may have even been the christening of The Acid Tongue itself, around or near there. (Don't worry, ladies, my own acid burns are of the Revealing A Dark Dangerous Past-type scars, not the Hideously Disfiguring The Good Parts-type scars. Whew!) Of course, time, familiarity, and new spoiler sources ;) heal all wounds. :) Heck, I think, Skyway, you were the first to e-mail me a "spoiler" pic we were all trying to locate and decipher. Hey morG, remember the Cat Face In The Rock? Ha! Tevildo indeed. (Basically, you later arrivals, this was a green-filtered pic of, I swear, rocks, a rock wall, and water. We were desperate for ANYTHING back then. Sigh! Me-e-e-e-emori-i-i-ies... Misty blah blah something me-e-e-emori-i-ies...) *** OKAY, actual LOTR stuff. Um. Howabout... Only 16 days until the new trailer's in theaters! Woo-hoo! Hey, speaking of trailers and memories, does anyone know where I can find the Original Internet Teaser from that fateful 2000 April? Tried finding it when I got my new home PC, seeing as how it never showed up on any FOTR DVDs (and may not show on any DVD!), but I swear it's vanished from the 'Net. That thing's an ARTIFACT. Gotta have it! (And remember how much we all freaked out when we first saw it? Like a gut punch! And then those cruel dates at the end... 2001... 2002... 2003..!)
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Many many moons ago, Pippin's Diamond sent me a cd of the original internet preview. I shall bring the cd with me.
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Whatchu tawkin' bout Rune?
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OK, I'll bite. I've been 'lurking' since October of last year. I totally dig all the book vs. movie debates, especially since I read LOTR for the first time last year (after having watched FOTR). That and the fact that I couldn't think of a cool handle. And that the other TE's had already said what I wanted to say (only better), etc, etc, etc
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Hey man, I got an e-mail from you yesterday to which I replied but today I found it was bounced back as "unrecognized". I've asked The morGoth to forward my message but in case you're reading this, thanks but sadly the answer's no.***Pallando, I WANT to think of you in manly leather with swirly cape but I keep seeing fishnets and a feather boa. Why is that? 8~)***Come out, Lurkers! Good for you Imladriel! I know there are others! Ingold, you have waxed yourself nostalgic alright! morG is quoting Martinez (who knows a thing or two about corn cobs, yes?) and tb numbers. P.S. morG (with a small m! So sorry!) I knew you had posted something
about Telchar making Narsil but clearly had forgotten the important details.***alright, I'd better head over to the Official Site to see what's up there. See ya later! -
I'm sort of lurking around the tb's at the moment and popping in and out occasionly. MorGy's got me working like a slave, a slave I sez. I think I need to speak to my Union. Anyhoo I do still use that Yahoo account Runelord, when it's not over flowing with viruses... Cheers.
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And morG's too, while yer at it! Um, nothing to see in them old talkbacks folx, nothing to see, move along, move along...
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I'm fully aware that my own posts are full of uninteresting suckiness to others. Kinda like this very post right here. And I'm completely fine with it. *** It seems to me there has to be, somewhere in the dingy cramped piles of used bandwidth floating around Geek Headquarters, a record of every post. I know when Father Geek bans someone he goes back and "disappears" their entire history, but there has to be some record of the initial posts somewhere. It's a shame that so much stuff was lost. Which is why I save every post now (yes, even this uninterestingly suckfull one) on the off chance that I'll have to "re-seed the TB Shire" as it were. Ah...if only I'd saved Walrus's smackdown of some Britney Spears loving imbecile back in the N'Sync in Episode 2 TB, or his brilliant distillation of the essense of creativity and why it is now found in PJ rather Luca$, or any of mortsleam's original attempts at Uruk-Haiku. Or any of the stuff I posted as Mercier. Whoops! I didn't say that...
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Your excellent name now has the high honor of being FRIST! The Elvish flying fingers beat out Anonymous #1 by mere
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Hmmm, while the offer of a backdoor pass is tempting, I've always wondered if Ingold was up to more than just wall building. ;-)With the declaration that I am FRIST, I think I will take my chances. Miruvor all around! ****Quick question. Didn't Quint tell someone here that the ROTK media blitz would begin in October? Doesn't that mean he can post his reports in a few weeks? Wishful thinking I suppose.
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Personally, I miss Virkku. He tended to make very thoughtful comments. (Also - The only person I've heard of who wasn't happy with Gollum's performance). Which makes me wonder: what happens to us all after they release the ROTK EE? Is there life after LOTR? For myself, I reckon I'll fade away, depart into the west and remain Orson.
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Believe me, Pallando, I know A LOT about you, he he he. Thanks for the welcome and yes, I am writing this from the wonderful city of Copenhagen, Denmark. I frist stumbled upon one of the old TBs (I think it was about some casting news) earlier this year via a link from a German Lotr site. As I had just been sacked but still had to show up at work for four whole months, I took the opportunity to use the fast internet connection at work and follow the
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... turns out to be a closet Blue Istar fan!?... Eeeeuuuww... *** Club Angband? Huh. Tolkien Geek 'chat room'? Huh. This is like the schoolyard chum, the playground. Complete with the cliques and the bullies and all the rest of it. Are you sure you need this crap for Ea's sake???!!! Flee! You do not yet percieve your peril!
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You tried to tell me. I'm sorry. The Tailend is taking me.
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Sabster, I had the best time in Copenhaven back in Sept. '89. I had just spent ten very long days at a Trade Fair in Berlin (just before the wall came down), and then went to your town to visit a friend. It was great. [And yes, I did take some photos of The Little Mermaid. Why the hell would someone want to knock it into the harbor?] ***Back on topic: LotR rules! ***Now as to where my head is at right now, I just got back from the supermarket where I purchased 20 gallons of drinking water, two dozen cans of tuna, a new flashlight, a shit-load of batteries and hurricane candles. There was no way I was going to wait till after I returned from this weekend's trip to Washington to buy the "essentials" in case Isabel comes calling next week.
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Sabster and Imladriel. nice to speak to you. just don't mention eagles, it's getting too close to the time (when the earth will rumble and shake with the wrath of the cry of 'not those bloody eagles AGAIN?!') *** okay, i hope the trailers got some new material, and not just recycled images from the preview or the still pictures that have been on the official site already. i want to see something new, why can't we all be spoiler whores for the last one? (any bit of self control has packed up and left, it's time to swoon!)
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Sep 12, 2003 5:10:21 PM CDT
Of Cabbages & Kings, replying to posters who weren't there and o
by skyway moaters
... "Walker is my name and I am the same. Riddley Walker. Walking my riddels where ever theyve took me and walking them now on this tail end the same. I dont think it makes no diffrents where you start the telling of a thing. You never know where it begun realy. No moren you know where you begun your oan self. You myt know the place and day and time of day when you ben beartht. You myt even know the place and day and time when you ben got. That dont mean nothing tho. You stil dont know where you begun." Or so Riddley might have introduced himself before he was BANNNED. When you read those old TBs you are seeing posts that are in reply to other posts that were deleted at some point; usually as the result of some flame war with "objectionable" content. As for a Club Angband, that's a dive that "people of the light", generally try to steer clear of, especially when JD's not around to keep the regular denizens in line, even more especially when the sooty one himself is, how they say: "In Da House".
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Sep 12, 2003 5:11:45 PM CDT
Of Cabbages & Kings, replying to posters who weren't there and o
by skyway moaters
... "Walker is my name and I am the same. Riddley Walker. Walking my riddels where ever theyve took me and walking them now on this tail end the same. I dont think it makes no diffrents where you start the telling of a thing. You never know where it begun realy. No moren you know where you begun your oan self. You myt know the place and day and time of day when you ben beartht. You myt even know the place and day and time when you ben got. That dont mean nothing tho. You stil dont know where you begun." Or so Riddley might have introduced himself before he was BANNNED. When you read those old TBs you are seeing posts that are in reply to other posts that were deleted at some point; usually as the result of some flame war with "objectionable" content. As for a Club Angband, that's a dive that "people of the light", generally try to steer clear of, especially when JD's not around to keep the regular denizens in line, even more especially when the sooty one himself is, how they say: "In Da House".
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Sep 12, 2003 5:13:54 PM CDT
Of Cabbages & Kings, replying to posters who weren't there and o
by skyway moaters
... "Walker is my name and I am the same. Riddley Walker. Walking my riddels where ever theyve took me and walking them now on this tail end the same. I dont think it makes no diffrents where you start the telling of a thing. You never know where it begun realy. No moren you know where you begun your oan self. You myt know the place and day and time of day when you ben beartht. You myt even know the place and day and time when you ben got. That dont mean nothing tho. You stil dont know where you begun." Or so Riddley might have introduced himself before he was BANNNED. When you read those old TBs you are seeing posts that are in reply to other posts that were deleted at some point; usually as the result of some flame war with "objectionable" content. As for a Club Angband, that's a dive that "people of the light", generally try to steer clear of, especially when JD's not around to keep the regular denizens in line, even more especially when the sooty one himself is, how they say: "In Da House".
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Yep, that
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Just when you think you know it all something completely knew comes out of the blue and blows you away. For instance, I personally had no idea that after the Last Alliance the elves were afflicted by Fenianism. Completely passed me by. Still, I suppose that would explain why they all became republicans and stopped having High Kings of the Noldor. Actually, I think that the reason the stopped having them was not so much some sort of Kin-Strife-esque racial purity agenda as the fact that after the annihilation of the Noldor of Eregion, the losses in the subsequent wars with Sauron and finally the considerable mortality in the Last Alliance, not to mention all of those who crossed the Sea during the three and a half thousand years since Gil-Galad got the gig, there were so few Noldor left that it would have been fairly absurd having a High King of them. A High Lance-Corporal would probably have been more appropriate. **** Another thing I never knew before was that Celeborn was originally to have been called Teleporno, but I'm quite glad about that, because if I had known it I wouldn't have been able to enjoy finding out now. I still have a sneaking suspicion that that was just a joke but I'm so tickled by the idea that I can't resist writing a celebratory limerick anyway. **** It profoundly annoyed Aragorn / Having bought (so he thought) elvish porn / To find that the wrappers / Contained not "Silvan Slappers" / But "Bearing All", starring Beorn **** Sorry.
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Non comprende, Miami. Glad you enjoyed your visit here. And btw, lest any Danes think I was mocking their language again (which I wasn
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Earlier this week one of the news networks, I think CNN, ran a little item about some vandals knocking The Little Mermaid statue into the water. ***Well, time to head to the airport. ***Hopefully, Moaters and I will find time to "fill up the corners" at Bilbo Baggins.
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Did you get my reply to your email? I'm not being paranoid mind you, I'm just having problems with my computer. 2 clean installs in the last week haven't completely sorted the problem out... Oh and how's about a new LOTR tb Harry? There's new LOTR stuff on the 'net' all the time at the moment, from pictures from TTT SEV and ROTK, not to mention trailer rumours, conventions you name it. Cheers.
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I'm delurking just long enough to continue in the vein of uninteresting suckiness. Imladriel, bravo, you were right not to trust Ingold. If the pass is not authorized by an Official Angband employee the bearer is subject to, but not limited to, imprisonment. You & Sabster (and any other interested parties) are more than welcome to apply for employment. There are plenty of vacant positions as I am still, for some unfathomable reason, unable to reduce the turnaround rate (especially on the lower levels). *** Now, Moaters, I'll have to ask you to refrain from calling my Club a dive. Do I interfere when you're engaging in TATOW? No, as that is your business, just as the Club is mine. Same goes for you Ingold. I don't make mention of the shoddy workmanship that goes into your walls that are as likely to fall down as not. *** Conan - Union? I don't think so. Quit fooling around on the internet and get back to work! *** Seepgood - thanks for the laugh. Witty & clever. Just what I most enjoy about the tailend tb. *** Sabster - I don't believe that any of the current tailenders are non-native English speakers. We used to have a few, but sadly, they haven't dropped in for quite some time. *** Okay, I'm off to spend the rest of the weekend in the country with my in-laws. Hugs to all. Namarie.
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Too bad it's probably only the Tailenders reading by now, because I thought this paragraph from the New York Times review was an excellent counter-argument to those who argue that Tolkien is for children: "This, whatever that summary may sound like, is not for children; nor is it for whimsy-lovers and Alice quoters. ...It is an extraordinary work - pure excitement, unencumbered narrative, moral warmth, barefaced rejoicing in beauty, but excitement most of all; yet a serious and scrupulous fiction, nothing cozy, no little visits to one's childhood." And very thoughtful it was of the Times to group all those articles and reviews in one place. ***Two more weeks, and we can see the ROTK trailer! Hurrah!
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that Theodred is rather young in the film. Having been creeped out by my homework reading (The Crying of Lot 49), I turned to the appendices for solace. So, turns out that Theodred was 24, when Eomer and Eowyn went to live with Theoden upon their mother's death. And Eomer was 9 at the time. Or thereabouts, at least. It does change the dynamic a mite to have Theodred younger than Eomer, methinks, but not in any bad way. Now, if anyone has discussed this already, just ignore me....
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OK, djinnj, I'll add my thoughts. I hadn't compared the appendix so thoroughly, but I think it changes the dynamic in a good way. For one thing (for us TE swooners), it looks a lot more romantic to have Eomer bringing home dying YOUNG heir on his saddlebow, rather than heir-approaching-middle-age (or well into it, depending on how old Eomer is), and his death is that much more poignant if you regard it as promise unfulfilled, rather than that of a man who - in a society like that - probably would have most of his life behind him. And really, should have been married. Theoden's age would also become problematical, if he were a sort of Ben Cartwright, not that much older than his son. Anyway, I rather like the idea of Eomer and Eowyn being distraught over the death of their younger cousin.... And by the way, though I've mentioned it before, I DO love that silhouetted shot of the Riders returning with Theodred's body. And (in the SEV), the rainy shot of the Ford - at least, that's what I assume that is - looks as grim as the aftermath of a Civil War battle.
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Eomer was born 2991 T.A., and Theoden died 3019 T.A., so Eomer isn't entirely a fresh faced young sprout in LotR either at 28. And, he reigns for 65 years! What interests me most is that JRRT says ''When still young he became a Marshal of the Mark (3017) and was given his father's charge in the east marches.'' Which means that he's only been a Marshal for 2 years at the time of the War of the ring. 26 is full young to be given command of 1/3 of the kingdom, but clearly he's been well taught. His youth does rather explain his relative impetuosity, though....
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Eomer would've been about 11 or 12 depending on what JRRT meant by ''not long after'' since Eomund was killed in 3002 and Theodwyn died, well, ''not long after.'' And, for those who're curious, Eowyn is 4 years younger than Eomer....
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According to a comment by our own Phillipa Boyens, Sam does carry Frodo up Mt. Doom at least for a spell. Ahhhhhhh. That feels good.***I checked out the new SEV photos on the Official site (well, new a few days ago) and found one especially thrilling - Gimli sitting on a dead Uruk. Anybody wanna bet against me that this is the setting for Gimli's line "the last one had an iron collar"...?
***As for the Times, doesn't it seem that Elvis Mitchell has a bit more crow to eat than he has already served himself? Contrast the tone of his latest promo of ROTK with his two reviews. Sounds to me as if he has figured out which is the "cool" side. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that he has been converted but if I had not had this chance to read them all back to back,
I would have continued in my faulty memory that his Towers review was more complimentary than it is, mainly I guess because was such an improvement over his Fellowship review.***
bjarki! I was thinking about you the other day - what do you think of this phrase I found in Harry's review of Cabin Fever..."the place could rock the nipples off a statue of Mary"....! I roared at that I did, recovering Catholic that I am! -
Has everyone seen the latest photo on TORN of Frodo and Sam huddled under their cloaks in the pouring rain, while Gollum lurks? And yes, Elanor, I am filled with joy about the confirmation that Sam WILL carry Mr. Frodo before the end.
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DoT, I'm thinking that shot is the next beat after Sam's line
"those rain clouds might" and before Gollum's first actual appearance "where issss it?".
***I might as well take this moment to announce that today I shall begin my re-read of ROTK. Two Septembers ago I re-read Fellowship and last September I re-read Towers. This way I will finish it well before the film's release, giving me a last chance to enjoy all of the Professor's gorgeous prose in its original form, yet with enough time in between to allow Jackson & Co's the freedom of expression they are due. At least that's the plan!!!!***on another topic, I just read Roverandom, which somehow I managed to know nothing about. I'm sure it must be referrenced in "Letters" and "Master of Middle Earth" yet I remained ignorant of its existence. It is an absolutely delightful addition to my Tolkien library, a delightful children's book and all I can think of is I hope my neighbor will permit me to start reading it to her 5 year old, as I can't imagine any child not loving it.
It has some lovely connections to The Hobbit and even The Silmarillion. Again, the dear man's love of beauty, nature and music is wondrously expressed. And in addition, I am quite taken with what a wonderful father he must have been to his children. -
Yes, that always seemed a glaring omission - from anxiety about rain to... fog. And on another note, since the talk of tales has been put earlier into the narrative, is it possible we may yet have that exchange between Sam and Frodo, where Frodo gently points out to Sam that there is no need to worry about return rations? Perhaps they will substitute that before Shelob.... Anyway, it will be a pity if it is left out altogether, as it is one of Tolkien's most moving passages. (Even Bakshi found room for it.)
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Sorry about that folks! Harry's loverly web site were acting a bit squirrelly when I posted that...
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http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1063599795 Thought about copying and pasting this... but a link is just as good. This article is definitive in the "Dwarvish" runes on Narsil 'debate'....
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Although the food was good, that place had absolutely nothing to do with Middle Earth. ***It was fun meeting Moaters on Saturday though, as well as morGoth yesterday. Right now I'm posting this from the library of "my old school." Boy oh boy, things have sure changed around here since I grduated (gulp) THIRTY YEARS AGO! ***And now it's time to have lunch with The Blue Wizard. Lucky me. ***P.S. to Ingold and mort, get your arses to Comerica Park and see Bruce. You won't regret it. ***P.P.S. Last night I called Pallando and told him to bring Harry's book and the postcards with him. If you hear something on the news about the mysterious killing of a Blue Wizard in Washington, D.C., you'll know that he forgot to bring them. ***On topic: the first thing I bumped into when I entered the G.W.U. bookstore was a T2T DVD point of sale display which was only had four copies left. Apparently the DVD has been a hot seller here on campus. I knew that there was a reason that I went to this place.
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...I meant "Elf Harvest" permit, obviously.
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Not only was I not murdered by a rabid Mofo, I also was not abducted by a random bachelor party! The benefits of meeting a Mofo in middle of a Monday, and doing what he tells you, reverse respectively. Or something. You get it. But a good meal was had by all, well, both of us (at least, my sandwich was pretty good), not counting the waiter who seemed to be attempting to break a personal record for how fast he could get our order feed us then strip our plates. Obviously he did NOT get the memo that I was hoping for a rare leisurely lunch. Life in the city of The Original Power Lunch; probably thought he was *helping* his tip. Wisely, we stretched the moot some at the bar (sadly, but with colas--pity the poor weekday moot). And now I strap the shackles back on, having waved the Mofo a fond farewell, as he slowly descended into the Mines of Metroria. Moriatro. Bah, that's horrible, nevermind. Go back. He rode the escalator down to the Metro, and I stayed up in the sunlight blinking back the tears. Both escalators were working! I got a little choked up. You just don't know. It was a banner Metro day. I tried to hide my sudden emotions from Miami, choke them back, let him just enjoy the ride down without all MY baggage. Who knows, maybe he even thought the smile was for him. ;~) Anyway, great to see you again, Mofo! And you have inspired me to begin gathering canned foods, matches, candles and bottled water. If Isabel's gonna bring it, I'm gonna be thar tied t'the mast face-front waitin' fer the saucy bitch! (Don't forget everyone--September 19th is International Talk Like A Pirate Day http://talklikeapirate.com/) Arrr! *** So, most of Thursday and all of Friday I just couldn't get through to AICN at all, then I was gone all weekend, so what do I find Monday afternoon. A Lot To Catch Up With. Back in a sec! Half a mo'!
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for dragging me from the shadows! Well, since I
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P.B., your Metro is so efficient, I was able to catch the 2:50 flight instead of waiting around till 4:30. It was great seeing you again, as it was meeting morGoth and Moaters for the first time. Btw S.M., morGy and I both agree that you have to something about your snoring! ***It was very cool seeing the book I purchased 16 months ago. Lots of signatures and postcards, etc. I still wonder whether when Harry finally sees it he will say, "Those cheap bastards! They all shared the ONE book!! Darn, that's fourteen copies I didn't sell!!!" But hopefully he will say, "Wow! This book has crossed two oceans and has been to three continents!! Ain't it cool!!!
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Sep 15, 2003 7:36:43 PM CDT
Celeborn a tree? I knew he was a bit stiff, but this is ridiculo
by miami mofo
While reading 'Sil' on the flight home I came across this little ditty: "And since of all things in Valinor they loved the most was the White Tree, Yavanna made for them a tree like to a lesser image of Telperion, save it did not give light of its own being; Galathilion it was named in the Sindarin tongue. This tree was planted in the courts beneath the Mindon and there flourished, and its seedlings were many in Eldamar. Of these one was afterwards planted in Tol Eressea, and it prospered there, and was named Celeborn; thence came in the fullness of time, as is elsewhere told, Nimloth, the White Tree of Numenor." ***OK you Sil "experts", please explain.
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So Ingold
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No problem at all with being a lunatic, Heretic. In fact, that trait may gain instant promotion to Entertainment Propaganda Minister (Not to mention your reference from RL. Impeccable, simply impeccable!). Just see JD for all the paperwork and The Standard Tour of the Facilities. I
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Oh yes, it's good to be talked about. Hee hee. Sorry I missed the moot, me hearties (jumping to the 19th a little early) but glad it went well, despite the non-compliance of Bilbo Baggins. Do you get the impression that the proprietors are missing am opportunity?***Yeah, thanks, Miami, if Dizzy Miss Izzy hits NYC I'm gonna tell everybody that it's your fault.***PB I think "The Mines of Metromoria" has a nice ring to it.***I agree,
MorG. The runic translation might
have been a tad better, but I'm glad both names got in.***
Totally off topic, I saw Open Range this weekend and liked it. It is quite liberally flawed but I was in the mood for it. Duvall is a delight and Costner is almost all good, with none of that cutesy crap that spoils so much of his films. I also thought Annette Benning was superb. I haven't liked her this much since The Grifters. The shootout was excellent. And I am a sucker for purty shots of sky and mountains and guys on horsies. I wouldn't recommend it out of hand cuz it's slow and could have been much better but it's got a lot going for it, just with Duvall and the late Michael Jeter.***I also rented a copy of The Prophecy. God what a mess. Course I WOULD pay to watch Christopher Walken read a phone book and it also has hunky pre-LOTR Viggo being all evil and creepy. Something extremely odd, though, in a film that presents a conventional
philosophy of God yet has Lucifer save the day.***Ingold, I just thought I'd mention that while all those nasties are ganging up on you I sit here and silently cheer you on. Keep them on their toes! Go Ingold! -
Because if I remember correctly someone mentioned Portuguese a while ago (BladeRunnerUnit?), and I know for a fact that there
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I don
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I saw a really funny one today at the local shopping mall. The dvd store had a really big display with large posters which looked really cool. The overall coolness of the display was unfortunately somewhat diminished by the only other item in the window: a hobbit-size helmet. For, alas, the helmet was neither Gondorian nor Rohan, but quite obviously part of a cheap Halloween costume for children (by courtesy of the toy shop on the first floor, as a small sign informed us). **** Re: Mines of Metromoria
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Sep 16, 2003 10:43:00 AM CDT
Mutiny? Boyo, I smell a full-blown coup d'etat a-comin!
by pallando blue
It don't take a Wiz to see the signs. Ingold's obviously disgruntled and Runelord's importing her own personal Personnel To Be Reckoned With! Sure they're all "taking jobs"--they're gettin' INSIDE. Then, when Runelord's finally amassed enough of the rest of the staff under HER wing she and her newly imported leftenants strike! Bada-boom bada bing, JD's locked in the 1866 cellar (maybe not such a bad end), Gothmog's secured in the Executive Sauna via a broomstick through the door handles James Bond-style (henceforth referred to as the Ingold Maneuver in the history books), and morG's left flailing in the jacuzzi as that night's Orcettes suddenly pop the corks on his water wings. ...Eh, no skin off my pointy head, I was only ever a customer. (Just keep the poker room open, please!) Besides, it'll all break down eventually when Runelord and Ingold can't agree on who gets to be the Executive Branch and who's stuck with Legislative duties [the Balrogette remains the impartial Judicial branch (aka enforcement to the highest bidder)]. Um, I am curious, however, who this mysterious "JRM" might be, of whom morG knows with a wink, but we do not... Hmm. We'll see, no? Meanwhile, nice ta meetcha Imradiel and Heretic! *** elanor, I agree wholeheartedly on "Open Range"! Quite good, quite good indeed--only one thing that may keep it off my shelf someday, and that's the unending last 20 minutes. Costner just couldn't figure out how to quit when he was ahead. Suddenly the Holding Forth by these characters seemed WAY out of character, there was just waaaaaay too much denouement, after the major situations had resolved themselves. It all could have been wrapped up, exactly the same way, in half the time with a dutiful rewrite and re-edit. The only time I sensed Costner loosening up the discipline and letting his ol' self-indugence take over. BUT, I only harp on the end because the movie as a whole is 99-3/4 Pure. Excellent Western, and I'm a fan of the genre--and SO happy to see another one, that isn't soaking in self-deprecating smartassness, modern idioms and Hollywood's Young Flavor(s) Of The Month. THANK YOU, Kevin Costner! For respecting the genre first and foremost. What the hell, I probably WILL put it on my shelf someday. *** Soooooo.... Sabster's a fan, eh? ;) [Quick! Dive in the closet! Find the leather breeches, weathered cloak, white silk shirt--oh crap, this one's still got baby oil all over it... DAMMIT, why can't I ever stay ahead of the laundry!?] Eh, y'all wouldn't be such fans of Strider if you saw how he GOT that "sexy" scar. Let's just say it involved a disposable razor, violent hay fever, and wads and wads of toilet paper. And Arwen thought he stood her up because he's all "dark" and "haunted." Ha! He must've gone through four styptic pencils that weekend. I'm never sharing a bathroom again. Nasty. *** All that talk of Tolkien in the juvenile section, it jumped right out at me when the good Prof used the word himself! Serendipitously came across it last week in "The War of the Ring" (HOME Part VIII, HOLOTR Part III). Right about the time he was drafting Book Four, and restructuring the chapter divisions of Frodo and Sam's journey (right around "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbits" and "Faramir"), he wrote in a letter: "So far it has gone well: but I am now coming to the nub, when the threads must be gathered and the times synchronized and the narrative interwoven; while the whole thing has grown so large in significance that the sketches of concluding chapters (written ages ago) are quite inadequate, being on a more 'juvenile' level." :)
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Took the ol' ever-winkin' Walrus a good three or four talkbacks to get comfy enough to start going along with the TE in-jokes and whatnot. I seem to recall his FRIST FOTR post to be something along the lines of "Can't wait. Such a huge fan." or something. (Gimme a break, I was relatively knew to the whole TB thing and jumped (the shark) onto the latest catchphrase fad. Only I actually meant it. I do remember that Alice took the time to reply to one of my earlier posts (something about XenArwen at the Fords) by e-mail, thus beginning a lengthy process of trans-continental stalking and obsession. Where is Alice these days, we wonders? *** Now, about this Teleporno guy (Talk about tall wood!) I never thought Martin Csokas came off as "wooden." Maybe "somnabulant" "lethargic" "enervated" or "pithed" but certainly not "wooden." And he actually speaks with some urgency in the FOTR SEV as he informs Aragorn of the Uruk-Hai. Now Elrond's sons, yeah, those guys are planks. No wonder they didn't make it to Helm's Deep! *** In health-related news, I'm sure you'll all be happy to know that the flipper's doing fine. I graduated up from crutches to a cane the other day, and am now putting full weight (yes, all 2 tons of blubber) on it. A shame though, it's merely classic black, and not the gold, diamond encrusted pimp-stick I was hoping for. Health insurance only goes so far. *** Finally, and only tangentially related to anyuthing here by virtue of the Pirates of the Caribbean: I read the latest issue of Entertainment Weekly last night and now more than ever I wish I was Johnny Depp. He talks in funny accents. He has a collection of wigs and mustaches. He hangs out with Tim Burton and Hunter S. Thompson. He hates America. He's freakin' ME!!! If I was, like, a ridiculously handsome and talented actor. At best, I'm Skeet Ulrich. (Or Steve Buscemi. Just admit it, buddy...)
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Putting weight on that leg is a big breakthrough! Speaking of which, I just had a big one of my own while at physical therapy this morning. While lying on my back, with much exertion, for the first time in two months I was able to raise my right arm. Musta been all those "medicinal herbs" that Moaters and morGoth supplied me with over the weekend. ***Sabster, I agree that Celeborn's character is much improved in the FotR SEV. However in the theatrical version he really is kinda stiff.
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... But T2T is now #4 in all time world boxoffice, surpassing Jurassic Park with $920.4 Million. To quote an early 'pre-release' talk backer/troller (who can remeember): "Shit they won't even make back the $300 Mil Newline is putting up blah blah..."
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HERE: http://www.mckellen.com/cinema/lotr/wb/030916.htm
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We've GOT to get a new TB now!... the bloated sellout...
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Of course I had to consult with Vanyar and this is what he added concerning Celeborn
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John Rhys-Mavies? No... I'm blankin'. A Lost Tailender..? *** All right, HERE's a topic for discussion. Last year Miami Mofo guessed correctly--right on the nose, actually--where the Disc 1 and 2 split would occur on the FOTR SEV. ...Where does everyone think the intermission'll hit on the T2T SEV? Familiar scene, or new material? *** And good news, Walrus! And Miami! And looks like Skyway's back up to snuff as well. Heal away, gentlemen, heal away.
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Sir Ian mentions the "reinforced chair" that was built for Harry's on-set visit. Somehow I don't see the big guy posting that tidbit of info. Ugh, I can just imagine the abuse he would take on the talkback. Therefore, in this case, I'm hoping that Harry doesn't post this particular White Book entry.
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.... did I hearit some one use the cursed T-Word?! Lissen this: Jus becaws you pult datter and decided to de-lurk dont mean you can jus come on hear and start flinging blasphemy aroun. Praps youve heard tel of sumfing callit Tatow? Do you have it in memberment that LOTR is one single novel, not a stinking T@#$%&y?. Wel I programmit Ive said perwel enuff for the minum: Mynd yore manners!
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Sep 16, 2003 3:52:23 PM CDT
I didn't say in what CONTEXT he mentioned Harry, Mofo...
by skyway moaters
...only that he mentioned him... *snicker*
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It will almost certainly have to be just before they throw back to Lothlorien for Galadriel and Elrond's "telepathic" summit. Just before Cate reprises her lovely elvish whispering. Hrm. Lovely Elvish Whispering. Perhaps it IS teleporno after all... *** Ahem. I think the main stumbling block to Annette Bening's career is her decision to raise her children with Warren Beatty. Still, after The Grifters, she appeared in American President, American Beauty and Richard III with a certain grey wanderer. Not too shabby a resume. The less said about "What Planet Are You From?" the better. But it sounds like Open Range is a perfect reintroduction for an actress who works far too seldom. *** Those damn seals. They always get the good pimp sticks. We hatess them! (>{=
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Thank you, good night and trubba not.
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Uh, heh heh heh. Er... duh. Shyeah, greet glimpshod, indeed! Although, in my defense, "John Rhys-Mavies" has a certain ring to it.
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So far the count stands at 2 who de-lurked on their own recently (kudos to Sabster and irritable), 4 new ones (Imladris, Anonymous #1, Heretic and Sabster
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It was very amusing and well worth reading (though completely WRONG, of course). **** K, I
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Thirteen weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!! ***OK now, JD, probably without morGoth's knowledge, asked me to find a surprise guest vocalist to perform a certain song. After frist deducting my customary 90% cut from what was a very meager entertainment budget, I found that all the Club could afford was someone from our childhood -- someone who has been so forgotten that he doesn't even rate a "Where Are They Now" show. [How sad.] But he's here now, under contract to sing one verse per week of our favorite song; which, since it has 13 verses will take us right up to December 17th. So would you put your hands together and please welcome (drum roll): Alfalfa from The Little Rascals. [Deafening silence from the stunned audience] ***Hi, it's great to be back. Ahem. [Tries to loosen his too tight collar as beads of persperation begin to form.] Mi mi mi mi. [And in an all too familiar scratchy voice he begins to sing]: "There is an inn, a merry old inn / beneath an old gery hill, / And there they brew a beer so brown / That the Man in the Moon himself came down / one night to drink his fill." Thank you! See ya next week (ducks to avoid the flying tomatoes).
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... so I'm headed off to Tennessee to visit me ailing mother; sufficiently INland. Pop's got a cable modem so I'll check in on ya'll over the weekend. Batten down the hatches me mates in Verginny and NC. It's kind of eerie. Everyone who's been through one of these before is saying, to a person: "If you've got the choice get the hell out". So I'm bugging out to the Smokey Mts. Good luck to all, see you when the wind dies down a little...
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The countdown got hosed, so it and the identity of the surprise guest vocalist can be found up near the top.
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Morgy the one time I stumble into "the slop-gin bucket" has to be the time spread for all the world to see doesn't it? I tell you what, after that Balrog Sambucca night I mentioned earlier, even you would have "stumbled" into the 'slop-gin' bucket if YOU'D been responsible for looking after them that night. Now that Alice's (club footed) dance troop has seemingly disappeared, it's falling more and more upon the "chemical enhancements" to provide the entertainment at the Club... I'm telling you now, get another act (the Uruloki fire twirlers were pretty good...) or hire some more security. That non-believing fellow that is apparently "not all there" should do the trick. I've been stuck on the front door for 'this past age' and frankly I think I'm starting to get a little irritable. I recall that my threat to go to the Union received the (expected) short- shrift from JD. This can not be tolerated. If workers rights are not protected than the whole shebang will fall apart at the seams, I tells ya, especially when the owner only appears once in a blue moon. And thankee indeed Runelord for the compliment of not believing you could get away with something whilst I was on the door. Thou art too kind, although you'd be surprised with, what a pretty girl can get away with when I'm on the door... Oh and what was this Tb about again? The TTT theatrical DVD? I've watched the whole thing extras and all a few times now. Still haven't found the day to watch FOTR and TTT back to back yet. Cheers.
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And behold, she appears! Sorry guys, completely lost you for a little while there. I've been distracted by the petrol-soaked joys of driving (just passed my test a few weeks ago) and so have been spending less time at the house. Attempts to find the most recent TB stalled a few weeks ago, and I kept waiting for a new one to appear (coughs slightly, looks up at corner animation with a gimlet glare). So, how the hell is everybody? What should I swoon over first?
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Please accept my best wishes to those who may be facing an oncoming Hurricane over the next few days. Please be careful and avoid any unnecessary silliness. Cheers.
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Don't let that that nutty Oss
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I shudder every time I see yet another cheerful idiot on television, saying they intend to ride it out, as if a hurricane were merely a bit of fun and excitement. Be warm, dry and safe!
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This is described as a new RotK image, but is it from the movie, or is it a poster of some sort? [See view/8587 for a view of the entire page of the Spanish language magazine from which the picture was lifted.] We've obviously got a rear view of the recently crowned King Elessar (that crown looks like the Aztecs made it) looking at a battle with what I assume is Mt. Doom in the backround. I wonder whether if this is when the mountain erupts, or is that yellowish light some manifestation of Sauron? Perhaps as he is fading after the Ring falls into you know where? Also, it sure seems that he's inside the Land of Shadow at this point. That's why I kinda feel it's a poster, and not a shot from the movie.
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Sep 17, 2003 6:30:43 PM CDT
Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were Elves
by imladriel
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will be right after the second beer ad:
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Sep 17, 2003 9:36:41 PM CDT
Did someone just mention a certain word not quite rhyming with "
by seepgood
[Grips writing hand firmly with non-writing hand until spasms have abated, wipes drool from around mouth]I think I'm going to find it difficult to resist entering something for that. The question is, are there going to be rules on obscenity? It would be a shame to deny Pallando the opportunity to show a wider public why they call him the Blue Wizard...
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"None of you have seen/read any non-English versions of the book/movies". Guess again, buster. Though I fail to see what difference it makes, the book I read in French was demonstrably LOTR, however this didn't change the action, themes, plot, characters... whatever.
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even if the plot etc. is not changed. Especially in the case of a book which is as linguistically multi-layered and complex as LOTR and is therefore extremely difficult to render in a different language without losing at least some of the original style and elegance. The first German translation for example has been accused of the latter, even though the translator cooperated closely with Tolkien. And when a new translation came out in 2000 (just in time for the movies
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Even though no one took up your thread, you still managed to start a discussion. Good show! Unfortunately, I'm merely uni-lingual (well, semi-bi, I know un poco espa
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Sabster, mortsleam: during my previously mentioned 1989 trip to Berlin, I happened to see 'Miami Vice' dubbed in German. It was a riot. ***DECEMBER 17TH CAN'T GET HERE SOON ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!
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I know this is late, and I don't want to derail the very interesting conversation on translations (which is another form of adaptation, don'cha know), so just ignore me if you like! (my friends do....) "Celeborn" is in Sindarin, the roots would indeed be 'telep' for 'silver' and 'orn' for 'tree' in Quenya. Galadriel is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. The Sindarin root is not 'galadh' for 'tree' but 'galad' for 'radiance' (coming, as it does, from 'kal' or 'gal' = 'shine'). The other bit is 'riel' for 'garlanded maiden' and all goes back to a reference to her hair. It's all in the appendix of the Silmarillion. OK, it's out of my system now. You can go about your business....
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And will it leave a RaDDP-type scar or a HDtGP-type scar? And what do you mean by:
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... while purists will tell that they prefer subtitles, I for one get very with subtitles in films with spectacular visuals or with very subtle character portrayals (virtually every film I really like on one count the other or both). I read reasonably fast and I simply too much of the rest of the film when I'm reading subtitles. On the other hand some films because of the way they are paced minimal dialog actually work BETTER with subtitles, Run Lola Run and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon spring to mind. I've seen both films both ways and prefer the sub title version of each. By comparison, I find Das Boot very difficult to follow with subtitles. The dubbed version works much better in my opinion. My perception is that the average "demographic film goer" doesn't even want to mess with subtitles much less draw distinctions.
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...as all tailends seem to inevitably become, but this one lasted a good long time... *Sigh*
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... and the posting order...
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One more week until we get a proper LotR:RotK trailer!!!!!!!!! [And hopefully a new talkback to go along with it.]
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Today there was a review of the latest book of the well-known Danish author Ebbe Kloevedal in my newspaper. Never heard of him, you might say, so who cares? Well, Kloevedal is the Danish name for Rivendell. And the first time that name showed up in the subtitles I had a real WTF-moment: I mean, how could the translator use what I then thought was a rather common family name, as there also is another author of that name, Troels Kloevedal. But later on I found out that in the late 60s both writers had been members of a rather famous hippie commune called
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First, let me tell you how I came to choose the FotR SEV disc split correctly -- when watching the FotR theatrical DVD you will notice a slight pause at the 93:24 mark, right after Pippin says, "Great. Where are we going?" Chapter 23 becomes chapter 24, but more importantly, this is where the disc reverses itself as the movie reaches it's approx. halfway point. Interestingly, this "pause" happens mid-chapter in the T2T theatrical DVD -- in chapter 26 at the 90:35 mark -- just as Aragorn goes over the cliff. [The "pause also happens mid-chapter on disc 1 of FotR SEV -- chapter 12; 47:15 when Gandalf bows and says, "Saruman." (On disc 2 it happens at 54:35 as chapter 38 becomes 39.)] Now since I don't think that the disc 1 / 2 split for T2T will occur mid-chapter, I will choose the next closest place: where chapter 26 ends with Theoden saying, "Leave the dead," as Legolas and Gimli look over the cliff at the rushing river below.
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When Legolas went to Nantucket,
He drank miruvor by the bucket,
He said with a grin,
While wiping his chin,
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MorG did you get through it ok? Pallando? I saw shots on the Weather Channel of flooding in Old Town Arlington and gasped to recognize the area where we were partially lost last spring looking for Bilbo Baggins. I hope everybody's ok.***Miami, you beat me to it! I agree completely with your assessment of where the split will be...on a cliff-hanger no less, yuk yuk!***Would love to know if anyone else is re-reading ROTK as I am. What I am finding (and it is hardly surprising) is that I am having far more trouble stopping after one chapter than with the other two books. I planned to read a chapter a day but I got started late and read three in a row yesterday! I am very near to switching my allegiance of
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There's more about Celeborn and Galadriel's names in the Unfinished!!! 'Orn' ends up referring to tall, not tree, and 'Galadriel' isn't even her real name, but rather one of those nicknames, like 'Thingol!' Celeborn gave her it.... // So, um, I'm thinking (what with all this talk of Club Angband), that there's going to be a nice bit of real estate whose value will be going up soon. Specifically, the Hill of Erech. It's situated in a wealthy area, the Morthond Valley, and it's convenient to both southern Gondor and Rohan (if the pass could be renovated, and I don't see why not). So, once the ghosts are all gone, what's to keep it from being the perfect site for Middle Earth's first theme park? Let me know if you're interested in going in on the deal, but please keep it hush hush, we don't want to inflate the price!
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YAAAARR, me beauties! (Sue me, I missed out on Friday!) The week leading up to Isabel had us doubling up our workload, anticipating losing up to two whole days--not easy on a weekly publishing schedule, especially when not planned for a month in advance. Week-of is a nightmare. So, overloaded BEFORE the storm. Storm hits, office is shut down (damn straight, ain't nobody wanna commute in a hurricane) both Thursday and Friday. ...At the homestead, lose power Thursday evening--Mofo, 20 minutes before kickoff! Yaaarrr!--which doesn't get restored until Sunday afternoon. Oddly not as much rain in my neck of the woods, our neighborhood was somehow 80% dry, but with ALL the wind. No major damage or casualties around my home, just the aforementioned power loss. Lived like a true Tolkienesque Luddite for 96 hours, nothing to do but read by candlelight. Actually, I spent a lot of time in air-conditioned movie theaters, catching up on movies that had been slipping under my radar. So I can HIGHLY recommend "Dirty Pretty Things" and "Lost in Translation," and to a lesser extent "Matchtsick Men" but the latter almost entirely for the acting, which is superb by all three principles (I've seen so many con-man films I just can't be fooled by the sting anymore, so I saw the ending coming ten miles away--but maybe some won't; it's more about the characters than the sting, anyway, which is another nod in its favor). ...And so here I am back on Monday morning, and despite all preparations the loss of Thursday and Friday has me overloaded again to the point where I may not come back up for air til Wednesday. At least the building's operational, missing another day would have us playing catch-up for a month. BUT, I am well, Isabel took it relatively easy on me, and the home is restored (although the fridge has been emptied, and needs a new smell). So... where the hell is everyone? Did I miss a new TB? Thought I checked... Heya morG and Moaters, y'all come through okay? Hope everything's well. I'll at least try to lurk some this week! Got a lotta reading to catch up on AGAIN.
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I jsut wanted to say that. Oh, and thanks for checking in PB, I was getting worried. Not a peep from the morGster yet. Hmmmmm. Maybe he's boycotting me since I keep spelling his name wrong...8~)
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... with the Shelob scoop. Of course, it's plastic Shelob, not the real thing, but Harry - where ARE you these days? As for Shelob, will try to withhold judgment until I see the genuine article, but I must say, I was thinking: I'd like to see shorter legs and more bulging body. And more green and black than purple, but maybe that's just the toy. Anyway, go take a look....
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That picture of Shelob looks badarse... I just sent Harry the pic via email so I KNOW he will at least get the pic. Whether he does anything about it is a different story of course. Not much going on around here I see, I might go back to lurker mode. See ya. Cheers.
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TORN has posted a retraction - it was some non-movie related toy from 1999. Well, I'm glad, because it was a spider that was hard to take seriously. Three days to the preview....
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Sep 23, 2003 4:08:26 PM CDT
(1) Aw, Man (2) Thank Goodness, and (3) What's Up With That?
by pallando blue
(1) Aw, MAN can't believe I totally blew off Bilbo's and Frodo's birthday! SO glad you chimed in with it, elanor. (2) Thank goodness that AIN'T Shelob. The legs look like bones, and it has a FACE fer cryin out loud. A scowling wild-haired woman's face, looks like. I just knew that didn't feel right, that just wasn't RT's, PJ's, or Weta's way. I've seen pics of that NZ tunnel web spider, or whatever it's called that they're styling Her Ladyship after, and that thing even palm-sized is 20 times creepier than that doofy toy Shelob! (3) Okay, where the hell IS everybody? And specifically my Friends-In-Isabel? Hopefully just inconvenienced and work-logged, as I was... SPEAK UP, ya knobs! Yer makin', um, elanor worry!
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(>ahem< Apologies to any native German-speakers for whatever I just did to your language.) Guten tag, Pallando! I
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that was a great pun! Which Oktoberfest are you getting ready for
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TWELVE WEEKS (efe) UNTIL LOTR:ROTK!!!!!!!!! ***Before we head over to the Club Angband stage, a quick message to elanor: don't expect to hear anything from morGoth until he gets some electricity, which hopefully will be soon. Meanwhile over the weekend I dropped off all the water, batteries and cans of tuna that I had purchased for hurricane supplies, at my neighborhood Miami-Dade Fire Station, who then sent it and tons of others up to N.C./Va. ***And now singing verse two, heeerrr's Alfalfa: "The ostler has a tipsy cat / that plays a five-stringed fiddle; / And up and down he runs his bow, / Now squeaking high, now purring low, / now sawing in the middle."
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Nuff said... Everyone make through Isabel OK? I shudder to think what this place woulds be like right now if she had come ashore as a cat3 or 4... Brrrr!
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At least we know he wasn
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... yes I DID get the e-mail you referred to. I THOUGHT I replied but then things have been a little "unsettled" in "moaterville" as of late: In hospital, trip back to Austin, up to DC with Mofo, back to Isabel, run away to Tennessee, etc. etc. Sorry excuses the lot of them, but then again I have about 6 e-mail accounts and I'm not even sure which one you sent to... oh well, belated thanks for your kind concern and: Where da heck yew ben?! Better get on topic, (like FG is reading 6-week-old TBS... HA!). Since the ol' black enemy-O-the world is currently incommunicado, how 'bout a round of: "Stump the Connexions Bloak"?: What is the ME equivalent of the constellation "Orion the Hunter"? (be complete, and spelling counts), and what constellation are the Hobbits referring to when they speak of "The Sickle"? A nice pouch of Gothmog's Glory and a Dwarf made pipe (and NO Miami not the crappy little thing I brought to DC, so don
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Fristly, the answers you seek are (I believe) Menelvagor, the swordsman of the sky, who it is prophecied will come down to Arda to battle Morgoth at the ends of time. As for the Sickle, that's the Big Dipper (or the Big Bear.) As for crispy Walrus, I was making some pasta on Saturday night, thinking how great it was that I recently cast off my knee brace and was relatively back to normal, when I was splashed by boiling water on my forearms, which caused me to drop the pot, which caused the rest of the water to splash up into my face. One quick trip to ER later, and I have 1st & 2nd degree burns on my forearms and the left side of my face. The Doctor says I'll eventually make a full recovery, but it'll be awhile. I'm thinking of changing my name to Turin Turambar. Or just Turambar.
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...I was wondering what that smell was! Ooh, that was in bad taste Mr. Moaters! Tch Tch... Morty! baby, you've just had one HORRENDOUS string-o-bad luck here lately bud. You didn't happen to piss off some Demon or Demiurge did you? Heal quickly my brother. Hope the G
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Sep 24, 2003 6:02:17 PM CDT
Re- Posted for Sabster, that this thing is 'un-hosed'...
by skyway moaters
"Why dubbing is big business"... while purists will tell that they prefer subtitles, I for one get very frustrated with subtitles in films with spectacular visuals or with very subtle character portrayals (virtually every film I really like on one count, the other, or both). I read reasonably fast and I simply miss too much of the rest of the film
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Granted, it is unusually well-dubbed, but the voices in English just don't compare. Watch it a dozen times like I did, and you'll practically be speaking German. Until FOTR came along, that was my record for the most times I paid to see a movie on the big screen. ***Mortsleam, very sorry to hear about all the nastiness and pain and general bad luck. ***And why is it that TORN seems to be posting a new spoiler photo every few hours, including Merry and Pippin with dead oliphaunt, and we are still awaiting a new talkback? This thing takes SO long to open these days that you had better make your subject lines interesting! In case everyone hasn't visited that other site, E! is going to be showing some advance clips from the ROTK preview tomorrow (Thursday) on E! News Live.
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I knew the "sickle" question right off the bat. But I must admit I had to do a li'l bit'o'digging for the correct spelling of Menelvagor. Still, I'm sure Club Angband will let in a poor scalded sea mammal, only slightly less sooty than the proprietor hissef. As for new stompin grounds, I say we pull up stakes and make for Moriarty's new Rumblings. There's a sideways mention of ROTK, in that the new preview is playing in front of Second-Hand Lions, so there's a slight possibility we may not ALL be banned if we invade en masse...
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Sep 25, 2003 10:05:13 AM CDT
"Aguy falls off his horse and someone else holds him in his arms
by miami mofo
No, that's not the Gondorian joke version of "A guy walks into a bar..." That's the actual description of one of upcoming trailer scenes. Boy this guy sure knows his Tolkien. Here's another: "Frodo running through that dark tunnel with the monster chasing him with the lightbulb glass in his hand." Who knew that the Phial of Galadriel was merely a flashlight? [Hope they brought along plenty of batteries!] Then again, this could be the perfect opening skit for Billy the Crystalline Hobbit on Oscar night.
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Sep 25, 2003 2:31:40 PM CDT
One month! Happy anniversary, everyone! Pop them corks, bubbly a
by pallando blue
Exciting enough subject line for you, d.o.t.? ;) This TB is one month old today! Woo-hoo! >cough< So, who wants to lay odds there won't be a new one until Monday? .....IF THEN? Ah well. But heck who cares--new trailer in 24 (plus time til the earliest show after work) hours!!! Man I am chompin at the BIT. Those ign'ant-sounding descriptions at TORN, which I read roughly 7 minutes after telling myself I could hold out until Friday night to SEE the spoilers, well they were exactly the right amount of info without details to tease. I am freaking teased to a screaming pitch. And there's really no way on earth I'll be able to NOT tape that E! mini-tease tonight, just as soon as I figure out which channel is E!. *** Welp, pretty much that's it. Had a small window of freedom, and wanted to say hi. (In my best Dr. Nick: "Hi, everybody!") I ought to be able to chime in again tonight, if there's anything worthwhile on the E! thing.
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Who wants to start a pool on how many posts go by in the next LOTR TB before someLOTR hater bitches about "I'm so sick of this site talking about nothing but goddamn LOTR! Hobbit this and hobbit that!" ...And who would like to volunteer to jump on that whiner's head with both feet, in golf shoes? One of us ought to be sufficient.
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Howdy boys and girls! Glad to say all the morGette
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My gosh, an ironic call for bubbly? See y'all over there! :) ...Glad you an yours are A-Okay, morG.
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