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WB Renews ANGEL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Spike Aboard!! Cordelia Not!!

Published at: May 12, 2003, 1:45 a.m. CST by staff

I am – Hercules!!

Monday’s Variety reports: "‘Angel’ – with new cast addition James Marsters - is taking flight for a fifth season on the WB.” It’s for a full season, according to the trade paper. But founding cast member Charisma Carpenter, who plays Cordelia Chase, “is not expected to return as a series regular.”

Look for some of the best writers from “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” to jump back to the WB, as well as quite a few other characters last glimpsed on the streets of Sunnydale.

“Angel” will remain at 9 p.m. Wednesdays, but will get a new lead-in as the hit “Smallville” moves to Wednesdays at 8 p.m.

The WB formally announces its autumn slate Tuesday morning.

I am – Hercules!!





Looking for bumper stickers, plush toys and girls’ underwear covered with cartoon double-amputees? Visit The Herc Store!

Readers Talkback

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  • May 12, 2003, 1:46 a.m. CST

    wowy, zowy

    by Guerilla_Films

    New tv season...I've never watched angel...who's spike...wooo.

  • May 12, 2003, 1:49 a.m. CST

    YAY!!!!

    by Jessie427

    I'm really glad that Spike is going to be on Angel!!! And I'm glad Cordy's not coming back, I'm sorry to those Cordy lovers, but she was getting really old especially with the whole love triangle with Angel and Connor.

  • May 12, 2003, 1:51 a.m. CST

    Yeah!!! Hell Yeah!!!! What??!!!

    by onetrueking

    Awesome, hell yeah!. I love that Spike is coming over. That's sooo cool. Cordy's leaving? Huh? Didn't they just write out Conner? Do they really need to get rid of 2 cast members just to make room for James Masters? If not, is Conner coming back. That's okay with me, since I've never really held a grudge against the character or the actor, but I seem to be in the very small minority. In any case, with Buffy and Firefly gone, I will certainly savor the fifth season of Angel, lest it be the last season.

  • May 12, 2003, 1:52 a.m. CST

    omg omg omg omg omg!!!

    by joeblowe

    YES! Man is Angel's next couple seasons ever going to be spectular... Now they just need to get rid of Fred and put in Gwen. Whiney geek scientist VS A really sleek sexy gadgety chick... Simple choice.

  • May 12, 2003, 1:57 a.m. CST

    Okay, I already replied, but... HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!

    by onetrueking

    Oh yeah!!!! Sweet!!!! Angel's back for another season. Joss Whedon's Firefly got cancelled, which totally sucks, but now he'll probably be working on Angel!!! "I'm singin' in the rain!!! Just singin' in the rain!" I'm okay now.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:01 a.m. CST

    Here's why Spike as a regular may not work....

    by Eternal Watcher

    He's been a major part of Buffy since season four, and now he'll be low vampire on the totem pole on "Angel"? Sure, we'd have some interesting conflicts with Angel, especially over the B word. Seeing him with Wesley should be a hoot, especially if Spike underestimates him. A conflict with Gunn may be possible, especially if Gunn's meeting with a panther changed him somehow. But it could hold James Masters back. It would be better to have him do a mini-series, where he is struggling with his identity and desire about whether he wants to be true to good or evil. The best idea is to have his ex-girlfriend Drusilla as a Big Bad. That's a sharp twist to Buffy's dilemma in the second half of season two. I see this as a one-season deal, then Marsters can start carrying his own show. But Angel without Cordy? Who's going to be the sharp cynic on the show? Uh, wait a minute, isn't this how Spike joined "Buffy"? It won't be the same without Cordelia in any part of the Whedonverse. Maybe by the 100th show, she'll wake up, and ask..."so, are we still on the air?"

  • May 12, 2003, 2:01 a.m. CST

    Woot!

    by vesp_e_rillian

    So, IS Conner gone? If they took out both Cordy and Conner, well, I'd be happy, but still, is he really gone? Dunno about Spike, I liked him in the second season, but Drew left him a shattered and broken man. He's never been the same.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:04 a.m. CST

    Spike won't be vamp, he'll be human.. So it'll work.

    by joeblowe

    Now lose Fred already.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:09 a.m. CST

    Grown up?

    by Maki Maus

    So "Angel" is a "grown up" version of "Buffy"? I can see that. I can also see that the label pretty much precludes the character of Buffy ever appearing on the show, since as of now, in seven years, she has not yet succeeded in becoming anything but her original starting point; a spoiled, whining, selfish sixteen-year-old. If anything, she's regressed. Oh, well.

  • Because otherwise there won't be enough time for all of them. Buffy at the most only has 6 regulars. Angel has 7 at this time. If they want to add Spike, they'll have to trim at least 2 regulars since Spike is a screen/storyline hogger. I am actually not very happy with this. I don't want Spike to ruin Angel, Wes, and Gunn's storyline.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:17 a.m. CST

    by pkreuk

    so cordy will probably be back to finish up her storyline? or she's just gonna stay in a coma? that sucks...probably to spend more time with her new family...and plus she's been Cordelia for seven years.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:21 a.m. CST

    Season 5 cast

    by D_Image

    Get rid of Connor and replace him with Gwen, that's all we need.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:34 a.m. CST

    =( Cordy not coming back SAD

    by mpfanatic

    Cordy not coming back sucks I dont care what u guys say, yah she wasnt that great in season 4 but does that mean she has to pay for that from the fans when she was great in the first 6 years as cordy?

  • May 12, 2003, 2:42 a.m. CST

    Nothing but respect for Mr. Whedon, but...

    by Z_Thorne

    I simply couldn't get into Angel. It lacked all the panache and flair of Buffy, the intelligent and humourous writing, and the strong supporting cast (let's face it...SMG wasn't exactly an Oscar winner - like that means anything anyway). Angel is just...flat. Boring. Two-dimensional TV. I can't bring myself to care about him, his son or his portfolio of sidekicks. And I don't think removing Charisma Carpenter's character or adding James Marsden's adequately-portrayed "Spike" will do anything for the overall crappy quality of a show that could have been so much more, especially with a man of Joss Whedon's talents at the helm. Just my opinion, though.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:56 a.m. CST

    Aw, shit...

    by cozmicmonkeychow

    Don't get me wrong, I'm THRILLED that Angel is coming back... but I'm not so happy to hear about Spike joining the gang. James Marsters is a good actor and all, but I would rather see him come back for just a one-shot guest spot. I know he said he'd rather not make just a guest appearance because it's a hassle, but still... I hope this works out well, I really do. I miss Bad Ass Spike, but as others have said before me, I hope this doesn't turn into the Naked Spike show...

  • May 12, 2003, 3:03 a.m. CST

    I am overjoyed.

    by EthanRayne

    However, I do worry at the testosterone overload from Spike joining the cast... not that I'm not glad to see Cordy go. But Spike better not take too much screen time away from my Wes. Love those ex-watchers....

  • May 12, 2003, 3:14 a.m. CST

    Spike!!

    by tia

    James Marsters will be an incredible addition to the cast. Next year will be amazing!!!

  • May 12, 2003, 3:18 a.m. CST

    Spike!!!

    by Helena

    It would be great to have Spike in the "Fang Gang". It would be even greater to have him as their adversary. The next season starts from the scratch, with new rules and new disposition. Spike is a wild card. He could consider Angel and Co as "sellouts" and work against them. He could return human. Hell, he could even return as that mythological "Rocco" - Spike's evil twin invented by fans at the Stakehouse and other spoiler boards. JW can create anything and JM can act anything - both are enormously talented

  • May 12, 2003, 4:07 a.m. CST

    WOOOOO-HOOOOOO!

    by Deep Blue Sky

    THIS ROCKS!- -ROCKS LIKE- -LIKE- -A - -THING THAT ALSO ROLLS!- -YEAH! :)

  • May 12, 2003, 4:12 a.m. CST

    joy of joys

    by Wolverines dad

    I was hoping they'd let Cordelia stay in that coma. I also hope dead Lilah is around a lot in the 5th season.

  • May 12, 2003, 4:19 a.m. CST

    Cautious Joy

    by RogueScribner

    I am completely thrilled that ANGEL has been renewed. After that finale, I could not bear the thought of this series not continuing. This show has always been about improvement. Improvement of oneself. Improvement of other people's lives. Improvement of the world. There's been some bumps along the way, but ultimately I think Team Angel has met this goal. Sure, they ended world peace but if being a mindless slave to a people eater is what it takes to bring peace and harmony to the world then screw world peace! :) The only way we're going to learn as a species is to be free to make our own choices, good or bad. Anyhoo, Angel and the gang are in deep grey now. I will love seeing this play out. My only concern is the fact that James Marsters is tipped as a regular next season. I'm not a Spike hater by any means, but Spike is larger than life and I think he would really work best in his own spin off. AtS is guy heavy as it is. So now we're giving up Cordy (so long and thanks for all the fish!) for another dominant male? It just doesn't make sense to me. Where's the why? Why does Spike need to be in L.A.? What purpose will he serve? If he's just there to "help out" then why bother? He's such a force of nature that I fear he'll be added to the show at the expense of some of the other characters. Spike should go off and have is own show with the nibblet and then Gwen Raiden can join Team Angel! Makes sense to me. :) One more thing, if Spike turns human that will be complete and utter bullshit. Spike earned his prize by gaining his soul. The only reason for Spike to be human is to throw it in Angel's face. That may seem interesting to some people, but I loathe the idea. Spike's arc was never about being human. It was about love and passion. Spike would gain absolutely nothing by being human. And he'd actually lose a lot. Wimpy William. L8r

  • May 12, 2003, 4:23 a.m. CST

    Woo hoo!

    by Heleno

    Yay! The whole Cordy / Angel love thing just didn't seem right, and it's hard to see where else to go with it. This is excellent news.

  • May 12, 2003, 4:25 a.m. CST

    The show NEEDS Cordy

    by EmilyQFan

    It just does. Fred does not cut it in the Cordy role. The show needs that humor etc the Cordy brought to the show in seasons 1 and 2 before the whole Connor thing made her act UNCordy like. It says NOT as a series regular. Lets hope she gets a LOT of guest starring parts like Lorne. JMO L

  • May 12, 2003, 4:35 a.m. CST

    Kind of makes sense

    by Golias

    I will miss Cordy, but they really took her character about as far as they could when she chose to become part-demon in order to accept the visions. Also, now that Angel has the massive resources of Wolfram & Hart to let him know about people in trouble, there's really know need to kick off plots with vague visions for "The Powers That Be." Even more importantly, Cordy's flash-grenade superpowers (and her growing romance with Angel) kind of painted them into a corner. She had become more powerful than many of Angel's adversaries, and a real risk of re-hashing the A/B story. So, good bye, CC. You will be missed. As for the idea of shoe-horning Spike into the series... I think it's a stupid idea, but I also thought making a teen-angst TV series out of a corny cult-hit move was a stupid idea, and it became my favorite show. I think the writers at ME have earned my trust. If anybody can make that character work on Angel, it is Joss & Co.

  • May 12, 2003, 4:49 a.m. CST

    Why do we want Spike?

    by Nodakskip

    Why the hell would anyone want Spike? Do we need to seem more of him with his shirt off? Thats all hes good for is eye candy for teen girls. Did anyone by the change to a good guy with him because I am one of hell of a lot of people who didnt. Cordy is a good character who only became Saint Cordy for this stupid C/A angst love thing with Connor and Jasmine. Bring back the old Cordy we love. And why do I feel like the sunnydale people will be Willow and Andrew? If this is true and thats a big if. This sucks.

  • May 12, 2003, 5:08 a.m. CST

    Has JM been made a regular. or just reacurring?

    by fabangel

  • May 12, 2003, 6:13 a.m. CST

    Does anyone know...?

    by TheAllSeeingEye

    I stopped watching Angel after the 3rd episode of the first series. The show in general is a total let down, everything about it is shit. I was kinda hoping for something darker and, to be honest, a little more grown up. Its teen trash as tacky as buffy got towards the end. I was pinning my hopes on THE WATCHER as i heard that was going to be alot darker and serious. Does anyone know what happened to this project? I think JW was doing it in conjunction with the BBC so i imagine it should be good, the BBC's production standards are alot WB's

  • May 12, 2003, 6:18 a.m. CST

    Clear the decks!

    by Desk

    Why stop with Cordelia? Angel's felt a little stale this season, and would probably benefit from a widespread change in cast as well as format. Lorne's camp comic relief schtick is getting old, Connor's potential has been squandered in the Cordelia romance, Gunn has become rather dull, and Fred's also at a standstill. The only Angel characters I'm keen to see return are the man himself, along with Wes, Lilah and Gwen. Bring aboard Spike and the best thing from Buffy's seventh season, Principal Wood, and you've got a really interesting mix.

  • May 12, 2003, 6:19 a.m. CST

    Cordy was not Cordy

    by slayersbitch

    I don't know if this has already been discussed.....but here goes. Cordelia has not been Cordelia the gal we knew and (some of us) loved this season- she was sent to a higher plain by Skip and the Powers That BE (PTB)- so Jasmine could be born. Jasmine (or another spirit) had jacked her body for the entire season. That is why once she gave birth, Cordy has not been awake- she is an empty shell. While her soul is still in "Heaven" or whatever. Remember how she needed them to do a "return your memory spell" when she finally returned to earth. TPB/Jasmine supposedly needed Cordelia's body to complete Jasmine's appearence. And she ocviously has not been acting like herself. So my take on this season was that Cordy was never there- just her body- so next season she needs her soul to be placed back in her body. Of course she will be pissed since no one recognized it wasn't her and also because she could see what was going on back on earth. YUCCKKK! Her doppleganger/possessed body got busy with Conner! Can you imagine having to see that happening and not being able to stop it? .........Sorry needed to give myself a moment to collect my thoughts- Anyway what do you guys think?

  • May 12, 2003, 6:26 a.m. CST

    Great NEWS !!!

    by Frank_Serpico

    Great news that Angel is Renewed !! DB , AD and the others sure as shit deserved it however I'm not sure how i feel about the pussy whipped one comimg over to Angel . Spike as a character has become a lame-ass rip-off of Angel . His character was marvelously written and portrayed until Season 5 after which they turned him into Buffy's bitch . However the fact that Spike has always had an inferiority complex regarding Angel should result in some great moments . AND I hope that the writers dont forget that what has made Angel work were the characters of Angel and Wesley and NOT Spike so sacrificing these characters dynamic for shirtles spike would be stupidity taken to the extreme.

  • May 12, 2003, 6:37 a.m. CST

    Front page headline is a Buffy spoiler!

    by jeffv

    Hey Herc, technically, you put a spoiler for Buffy on the front page headline: how can Spike be in Angel unless he lives in Buffy? I was trying to keep away from the Buffy spoilers. Being a series finale anything *could've* happened...

  • May 12, 2003, 6:46 a.m. CST

    NYC Buffy BASH!!!

    by Shizman

    The specifics are set! It IS going to happen! E-mail nycbuffybash@optonline.net for details!

  • May 12, 2003, 6:56 a.m. CST

    Great news

    by kuntshaft

    Fantastic news, especially after that finale. However I share peoples concerns about Spike joining the show. With Cordy gone that'll leave Fred as the only female lead. Now to my mind a problem with Angel this series has been the overload of leading males. Angel, Wes, Gunn, all three fit into a heroic male mould, adding Spike to the mix would seem even more excessive. Of course they'll probably increase Lilah's part to compensate, and I'm guessing we wont see much of Lorne anymore; still worries me a bit though.

  • May 12, 2003, 7:06 a.m. CST

    Frank_Serpico - I agree

    by dxgarten

    Angel and Wes dynamics was the very thing that sustain S3 and S4. I really hate to see it ruined just because now we have to see Spike with his ever missing shirt 24/7. Can anyone please at least ensure that guy keeps his shirt on when he is on "Angel"?

  • May 12, 2003, 7:11 a.m. CST

    AMIDST THE MESS OF GENRE TELEVISION, A FANBOY (FANGUY!) IS HAPPY

    by amateurscientist

    THIS IS DIRECTLY TO WB AND ALL THOSE WHO HAVE HAD THE GOOD SENSE TO RENEW THIS EXCELLENT SHOW: THANK YOU. YOU DID A GOOD JOB! PLUS, WITH SMALLVILLE BEING ONE OF THEIR TOP SHOWS, THE RESHIFTING OF THE SCHEDULE WILL EXPOSE MORE VIEWERS TO THE EXCELLENCE OF THE WRITING AND DIRECTION... WITH SPIKE ON THE SHOW... THAT'S GREAT! (AND ALL THAT TELLS ME IS... ATLEAST WE KNOW HE DOESN'T DIE IN THE BUFFY FINALE!) I CAN'T WAIT. THIS SEASON'S ENDING BEGS TO BE CONTINUED. I WAS VERY GLAD TO SEE THIS NEWS. (sorry for all the caps guys... I was having a moment...)

  • May 12, 2003, 7:16 a.m. CST

    Cordy's Departure

    by xazqrten

    I'm not surprised that Chrisma won't be coming back as a cast regular - she now has an infant son, and has apparently rearranged her rpiorties. Lisa Howard gave birth to a child at the end of season 2 of Earth:Final Conflict. She never came back because she wanted to rear her little one/s for the first two years fo their lives. For some actresses the job isn't everything or the most important thing in their lives. I do hope she appears in a recurring manner, although the way the season ended that might not be in the cards - but this is tne Buffyverse, Angel division...

  • May 12, 2003, 8:15 a.m. CST

    The Good

    by TheDarkShape

    While I'll be sad to see Charisma leave as a regular, as I was looking forward to *Cordelia* next season, hopefully she'll return for a few guest spots to harass Angel and Co. :) I look forward to Spike. James Marsters is great on Buffy, and the thought of him sparring without Spike slaving for Buffy really opens up his character again. And I'm most intrigued by Buffy's writers moving over to Angel. Drew Goddard writing Fang Gang episodes? Sign me up!

  • May 12, 2003, 8:21 a.m. CST

    some good, some bad

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    I am kind of glad that CC isnt going to be around next season. They really did all they could with her character and now she can stay home to take care of whats really important in life.****Spike is definitely going to be interesting. Not sure how he is going to fit in with the fang gang.

  • My God, the Spike haters have become just as obnoxious (and full of it) as those insane Spike Lovers who hated Buffy for not just loving the evil son of bitch. Spike on Angel has always been a possibility, and if you remember season 1 you'll know it can work as his personality and Angel's are excellent counterpoints (think Batman and Joker). I still don't understand where the obsession with naked Spike comes from. It wasn't *that* prominent in season 6, making me wonder why it left such an impression on the macho fanbase. Besides, he was naked (LAST year) because he was sleeping with the star--exactly how do you think he'll get naked on Angel then? Angel has gone around with his shirt off plenty, so if that

  • May 12, 2003, 8:43 a.m. CST

    One of the best eps of Angel's first season

    by zer0cool2k2

    featured Spike, watching Angel save some damsel in distress, and doing a voiceover about "hair Gel" and the "Angel-mobile" during the action. funny stuff. While I'm just as concerned as most about Spike upsetting the balance of the show, I'm hoping for the best, and glsd to have a little slice of Buffy back on the tube next year. I'm guessing from the wording, that Charisma may make some appearances next season, and hopefully if Angel makes it to Season Six, she'll be reqady to return full time. I still think Cordelia (the Real Classic Cordelia), is a vital part of the show. Hopefully, this will give the writers a reason to keep Lilah around though..................... And SMG did win an emmy.

  • May 12, 2003, 8:45 a.m. CST

    Cordy, not Connor? *mild spoiler*

    by Daireen

    I'm confused. The ending of the season finale certainly made it seem like Connor was leaving (perhaps a few initial guest spots to clear up that yes, in fact, he is living the happy brainwiped life with his equally brainwiped new family), which would make the most sense. Connor has a Happy Normal Life(tm) now, so why bring him back into the fold? Balance the few appearances of Connor in the beginning, then mid-season, wake Cordy up, more or less brainwiped and back to her old bitca self. "So... what happened while I was asleep?" OK, shades of Dallas here, but in this case, it would be better for the show if Cordy had her own personal "it was all a dream" thing. --- I'm all about Spike, if for no other reason than to say "neener" to Angel. Spike is 100x the man Angel is. But I won't get into fangirl mode at this time. ;) Too early in the morning yet.

  • May 12, 2003, 8:47 a.m. CST

    Thank the Powers

    by Larry Jay

    The saga continues. And lacking BTVS and any other Whedon product, Its a good thing to have ANGEL back. Charisma is relegated to a lesser role,GOOD. Payback for having ANYTHING TO DO with that irritating CONNOR. PLEASE DO NOT BRING THE LITTLE BRAYING PUNK BACK!!! ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!!

  • May 12, 2003, 9:23 a.m. CST

    Bring on Darla

    by jinX

    I want a family reunion for Angel. Darla, Spike, Dru and Angel all under one roof. Perhaps Dru will go get a soul too since that seems fashionable these days. As for Buffy refugees, maybe the occasional Anya appearance as Angel's secretary? I agree with whoever said Principal Wood would be nice to see as well. Fred and Gunn might be best riding into the sunset, panther development or no.

  • May 12, 2003, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Evil Spike, fine, human or whiney Spike, get lost....Now that We

    by BannthisUcommies

    geek dialog? Well at least we had 2 1/2 good years...

  • May 12, 2003, 9:54 a.m. CST

    No Charisma Carpenter? Forget that

    by 007-11

    Spike is cool and everything, but he's not a hot woman.

  • May 12, 2003, 9:56 a.m. CST

    yep yep yep

    by nicole

    i'm all for spike coming. i do think that he's become somewhat of an angel rip-off, just like cordy has become somewhat of a buffy rip-off over the years. but really, i do think that adding spike and the magnificent james will only improve angel. like someone said, not having spike drool over buffy all the time opens up his character again - now if only dru and darla could come back. hee! as for cordy out..not loving it. but i do think that they've probably done all they could with her. the fact that it hasn't been her all season proves that, IMHO..they didn't know what else to do with cordy (as they've already butchered her character), so they said "let's make it not cordy!" still, i do think it may throw the show off a bit. they certainly need more females in the cast. come on down willow! or perhaps lilah! and again - dru and darla! oh, the endless possibilities! with joss and co. only having to juggle the one show now, this has seasons 2 and 3 of buffy written all over it!

  • May 12, 2003, 9:57 a.m. CST

    Why I am so happy....

    by mdmscholar

    1) Connor is basically gone!!! 2) Cordelia is gone!!! 3) Spike is in!!!! 4) Some writers will be back on Angel (not too much of Marty I hope) 5) Chances of guest appearances from the Buffy crew!!!!! and last but not least............6) SMG might show up at the end of the season and walk hand in hand with either Spike or Angel (don't care wish, just want her to FINALLY be happy) - LIFE IS GOOD!!!!!

  • May 12, 2003, 9:59 a.m. CST

    Warning To Buffy fan Tivo owners

    by Rych

    Those of you who have a tivo season pass to Buffy. Buffy is not in this weeks Guide data, and if the data is not corrected you'll miss tomorrow's show, 5/13

  • May 12, 2003, 10:02 a.m. CST

    Good! Cordelia Is a Pale, Bland Shadow of Herself

    by Fuckleberry Hinn

    But now they need a new chick, because Fred is a bit of a bore (although not as bad as she used to be). Get some kung-fu Asian hottie! They could stand to lose Fred and Gunn too; they're boring. Keep Lorne and Wesley, add Spike, Anya, and Andrew; and drop the whole taking-over-the-evil-law-agency thing, which is lame.

  • May 12, 2003, 10:07 a.m. CST

    i love this!

    by ryan mecum

    way to go. this show is really getting better. cordy and conner needed to go. spike is great. you made my whole apartment complex happy with this news. can't wait til next fall! ryan

  • May 12, 2003, 10:28 a.m. CST

    Teriffic news, but...

    by Xocxoc

    Between the last episode and the news of Spike, I'm already excited about season 5. However, I have concerns: They need Cordy to come back for an episode or two just to wrap up loose ends; Assuming a less angry Connor returns, then Spike will be the sixth male character on the show and Fred the lone female; They need at least one more female regular, and the prime candidates are Darla and Gwen; Assuming SMG won't be coming to W&H anytime soon, likely guest stars from BTVS are Willow, Dawn, Andrew, Xander (yeah I heard the rumor he might be killed off but this has never stopped JW before), and Anya.

  • May 12, 2003, 10:29 a.m. CST

    Radical Eddie, BBC production values are roughly that of Monica

    by BannthisUcommies

    I realize that twaddle like this is not indicitive of the English as a group but holy limey frigging basterds what the hell is in the water? Sure Buffy has degenerated into absolute shit but what kind of a moron discuss how bad a show is after stating that they haven't watched it in 3 years?

  • May 12, 2003, 10:37 a.m. CST

    Spike! Yes, yes, YES!

    by arkaidy

    Whee! I feel like it's Christmas morning. Not only is Angel renewed, but with the addition of Spike!! Angel and Spike will be great together--so many possibilities. And I know that most of the nay-sayers will stick around to watch, because it's apparent that their main pleasure in life is complaining about my favorite boy. Here's to a fascinating fifth season!!

  • May 12, 2003, 10:51 a.m. CST

    What is it with you guys?

    by Sigmund Freud

    Jeez--what is it with you guys' fixation on James Marsters' bare chest? Nodaskip, Serpico, Dxgarden, Bannthis, you guys should be happy to know that, besides looking very hot naked, James Marsters can act the hell out of any scene he's in! I have no doubt he'll be a real asset to AtS. Oh, and you might want to look up the term "reaction formation."

  • May 12, 2003, 11 a.m. CST

    My theory on a very good reason why CC is leaving.

    by kathylyon

    Let's not get too upset at team Whedon yet. I get the feeling that CC's departure was probably more her idea than theirs. Since she had her baby, she's been on less and less. If I'm not mistaken it was to spend more time with her new family. Being a Mom myself, I understand how your priorities change after you have your children. I'm inclined to agree that for the actress, personally, its probably a smart move. She can spend a few years playing with and raising her children at home, then after a respectable hiatus, re-enter into acting, perhaps on a fresh path. If I were in her shoes, I'd be feeling the same way. Let's not forget the actors and actresses are people and that this is their job, not their life. As far as Connor goes, if this is his swan song, the character deserves a break, don'tcha think? If they were going to have a finailty to Connor, aren't the Connor fans pleased that it was handled this way? I admit, I was not a Connor fan, but at least he either gets to lead a happy life or still has an open door to return to the show under some creative circumstance. All in all, I think it was a good call and I think Spike will make a good addition to the cast. I am a Spike fan, and if other spoiler information I've read elsewhere turns out to be true, don't worry, you won't have two vamps with a soul.

  • May 12, 2003, 11:16 a.m. CST

    I worry for Spike...

    by viola123

    There are so many great storylines that Spike can have on AtS, but the writers make me so nervous. He's a wonderful addition, and I'm sad about Cordy not being there as a regular, but Spike being added could be really wonderful, but ME has disappointed me in the past and that's what I'm scared about right now. I will continue to wish for the best for him on AtS, for them to give him a deep and awesome storyline, but ME has made me so upset in the past that I'm just a mess over what this means to me. I'm both happy and cautious. I loved the season finale for AtS, and true, it set up the makings for a totally different show. Very. I hope they know how they are going to integrate Spike. James is such an amazing actor, he'll bring it whatever they throw at him, but I just want them to keep him true to who he is, and that includes his love for Buffy. That said, about Connor, I'm glad he's coming back and though they gave him a "happy ending" at the end of "Home," that was just another lie, so that set up him not accepting it. I think that's going to be his story, as well as Angel's story next season, dealing with that decision on Angel's part to give Connor a new life, but one that was again, just a lie, and not something he could be truly be happy with. I would love for Connor and Spike to form a friendship, which would no doubt be something for Angel and Spike to deal with, and my hope is that they won't have it be Angel and Spike at each other's throats. Please, no. Spike is beyond that, and I would hope Angel is too.

  • May 12, 2003, 11:19 a.m. CST

    Go tell it on the mountain!!

    by JessicaDwyer

    This is going to be great for the show. For one: Spike is a great character, and the fact that he has gotten to a level that Angel has yet to achieve when it comes to being human will be some great drama. Plus the banter and chemistry between them is great. Two: Cordelia really hasn't been useful for awhile. The love thing between Angel and Cordy was forced, almost as forced as Charisma's acting this season. I know she was pregnant and everything, but jeez...She just wasn't there at all. I think this will be great for the show, and add a neat dynamic with the whole Wolfram and Heart angle that is going to be happening. Yeah! See ya at the Bash!!

  • May 12, 2003, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Spike-O-Licious!!! Yayy!

    by delwin

    I'm glad Cordelia will be exiting. She was fine for two seasons, but she got lame, and I think you can tell she has no heart in the show any longer. The show was doing fine without her. I also hate the Angel/Cordy thing. Bugs the hell out of me. And its not that I love the Buffy/Angel thing, its that tehy have ZERO, BIG HUGE ZERO, chemistry. Angel and Buffy have tons. I think even Fred and Angel have better chemistry. My dog and cat have better chemistry.

  • May 12, 2003, 11:33 a.m. CST

    SO the cast is.....

    by Blok Narpin

    Angel, Spike, Wes, Fred, Gunn, and Lorne??? Awesome.

  • May 12, 2003, 11:47 a.m. CST

    NOT FUCKIN SPIKE!

    by provider84

    SPIKE HAS BEEN SHIT AS A CHARACTER SINCE SEASON 5, WHEN THEY TRIED TO TURN HIM INTO ANGEL. WHY IS CORDY NOT COMING BACK???? THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH HER. IF THEY NEEDED ANY CHARACTER FROM BUFFY AS A REGULAR IT SHOULD BE WILLOW.OH WELL, LETS JUST WATCH AS THE RATINGS SLIDE LIKE THEY DID WITH BUFFY WHEN SPIKE JOINED.

  • May 12, 2003, 12:19 p.m. CST

    hmmmmm

    by GypsyTRobot

    if I express any sense of joy, I'm sure I'll jinx the next season. So let me jump on board with the naysayers. Yes next season will suck. Our eyes will all bleed at the sight of a trim vampire whose shirts keep on disappearing. We'll weep for the lack of a vivacious teen presence. We'll shed countless tears over Cordelia's absence which has been such a problem during this season. Yes, next season will surely be the worst ME season of all time, blowing Firefly's aborted outing and Buffy S6 out of the water with its sheer putrescence and obvious Jumped the Sharkiness. 8^P (for those of you playing along at home, the volume on "Tequila" is dialed to 11 in my giant purple head).

  • May 12, 2003, 12:23 p.m. CST

    Transplanting Spike

    by Spikes Brain

    Look at it this way--everybody said what a breath of fresh air it was when Willow guested on Angel earlier this year. I think Spike will have the same effect. Remember, the tone of Angel is a lot darker than Buffy was. Spike's constant carping at Angel about his hair, outfit, etc., will be a good mood-lightener. And, I don't think we have to worry about a lack of hot women in the show. Was there really any serious reason for the character of Gwen, except the skimpy outfits?

  • May 12, 2003, 1:02 p.m. CST

    Spike as the antagonist would work

    by rev_skarekroe

    Spike, good guy vampire trying to bring down a Team Angel-run Wolfram & Hart sounds like a killer idea to me. Spike as another alpha-male protagonist gunning for screentime doesn't. sk

  • May 12, 2003, 1:07 p.m. CST

    I'm certainly very interested

    by JT Styler

    Hello my brethren. I am the Styler and I must thank the powers that be at the WB for giving us Angel for another and I expect and hope is the last season. No Cordelia, can't say I'm too bothered. Her character was destroyed and wasted this year, hell even in Season 3, she was an irrelevance with all the Saint Cordy and Angel love crap. It's a shame that she will not be a series regular but it makes sense when you add her family to the mix. The truth is the show doesn't NEED her but is better with her. My golden rule is that character development is not a two-way road, it is unidrectional so all those jokers who want all attitude - no action, one-dimensional Season 2 Spike and Queen C back: less of the reefa please. Spike on Angel, pleased but not overjoyed. Execution is everything so I'll wait to judge unlike the rest of u - No, Wolverine's hair's all wrong; no the Hulk's too CGI; oh no, Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the lost Ark - Spielberg, u've assraped me and my anus is now a cave. Please! The Styler's out.

  • May 12, 2003, 1:33 p.m. CST

    yeehaw sniff

    by Demosthenes2

    So, that makes me very happy. Sad about Cordelia though; does "not a regular" mean she'll do guest spots? I guess if I HAD to choose between Cordy and Spike though, I'd go for Spike... It's been awhile since I've been happy and sad at once.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:11 p.m. CST

    This is what I get for watching Angel all these years. If I want

    by Purple Rain

    Goddammit I am serious pissed off. Four years of character development for Angel and Cordelia have just gone out the window. I will never get into a television show again. Fuck this.

  • May 12, 2003, 2:37 p.m. CST

    by Thorne13

    I heard that Spike will be in 10 episodes next year not the whole season. I hope this is true because he shouldn't be around in episodes where there's no use for him. I think that complaint that Spike hasn't been as good the last couple of years is valid but look at the reason he hasn't been as good: it's Buffy. Ever since they got together he hasn't had his edge; to me he's been little more than a third arm for her, so if he's on Angel there's no risk of that. He can be his own man once again, he will be able to be the fabled Spike of old. The show needs more females but I'm sure the writers are going to work on that post haste. This season Angel has been better than Buffy ever was and I'm hopping that it gets even better next season. The show is great but it needs to keep changing to keep fresh and I'm sure that Spike will help change the dynamic. Look at how good Willow was on Angel; if they can bring that kind of new life to Spike I'll be very pleased. Now if they bring Drew Goddard as a writer for Angel I will jump for joy.

  • May 12, 2003, 3:26 p.m. CST

    fools

    by NeoAngelus

    I love hearing all these people nay-saying decisions that they are ultimately going to love. Taking a well-known established character, i.e., Spike, and putting him on "Angel" is a brilliant idea. Compound that with the fact that it's going to have "Smallville" as its lead-in now will only help. Think about it. Things are different in Angel's neck of the woods now, and the latest rumors have Spike disappearing from the aftermath of this last battle with the First. Losing Cordelia as a regular isn't so bad. Do YOU think Cordy would approve of Team Angel taking over that branch of Wolfram & Hart? No. So why SHOULD she stick around? And Charisma's a new mother. It'd be difficult for her to keep a role as a series regular and concentrate on being a mother. This way, with her as a recurring character, she can be the mother she wishes to be. I, personally, am psyched with the new twists, and the addition of Spike. I trust Joss and Co. implicitly, as they have yet to TRULY let me down. Every arc, from Buffy, to Angel, to Firefly, has been satisfying, at the very least. All the nay-sayers need to check themselves. Just because you don't like what's going to go down doesn't mean that you know any better. ME already knows how things are going to happen, in general, and no amount of speculation on our parts can paint us an exact picture of it. So stop it with the bitching and moaning, because it's all going to happen, if ME so desires it. - N/A

  • May 12, 2003, 3:31 p.m. CST

    I miss Harmony... yeah Harmony.

    by AndyTrashcanMan

    How about bringing on Harmony! She was the funniest and wimpiest vampire ever! A bit of humor along with Spike... being Spike would take Angel to a higher level. Sorry guys but Cordy, Gunn, Fred, and even Lorne are a wee bit tired. Let's all hope Connor is killed in a college hazing incident. Personally I'd much rather see Darla, Spike, Harmony and the "Daniel Day Kim" Zombie.

  • May 12, 2003, 3:38 p.m. CST

    To Spike_Head

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    I think people found Willow's visit to Angel this season a breath of fresh air because it was the first time Willow has acted like Willow in 2 years. I'm not sure what character Alyson plays now, but im not entirely convinced it's "Willow". I guess i can thank Marti "CrackWhore Willow" Noxon for that.

  • May 12, 2003, 3:41 p.m. CST

    Ms. Carpenter's leave taking...

    by The Alienist

    Did anyone ever find out the reason that Charisma Carpenter was sent on a four week hiatus last year with rumors that her fourth season participation was in doubt? Drug and depression rumors abounded but did we ever hit on the truth?

  • May 12, 2003, 4:14 p.m. CST

    Season 5

    by Redro

    First off, yeah!! Secondly stop thinking about what could go wrong with Spike and think about what could go right. Can you imagine if spike goes to LA after the events in sunnydale all bitter and heart broken. Spike sees that being good can hurt and kill the people you care about. Angel runs into him and being a fellow vamp w/ soul feels it is his duty to help him out of his funk. It turns into a weird father-son type thing but as always they don't go too deep w/ the relationship. During the season Spike becomes Angel's man on the street getting the info that W&H can't our won't give the Angel Team. Spike will only be on once in a while. The season ends w/ Spike going to NY to attone for his sins and the lightening lass Gwen doing the same. Making a new show that is as dark as Angel was supposed to be, no -y ends just serious blood and guts in streets that are deadly even w/o demons and vampires. And for those of u who are upset about Cordelia would u rather they come up with an elaborate explanation why angel and his 'great love' can't be together or just leave her in a coma as a constant reminder of how serious the battle against evil is. And finally RADICAL EDWARD - A.Stewart Head has been staring in a BBC sitcom about single middle aged men(forgot the name) since he left Buffy. ~later

  • May 12, 2003, 4:36 p.m. CST

    Best Buffy writers?

    by cooper2000

    Oh god no. They ruined the last two seasons of that show. they want to spread their joy? The annoucement that Angel is coming back is good news but the news about Spike coming over and them getting rid of Cordelia underwhelms me. Bring back Lindsay and keep Lilah too.

  • May 12, 2003, 4:51 p.m. CST

    But will Spike be a good character again?

    by alvinsimadeer

    I had faith because the Angel writers brought back the real Willow this year, but since the Buffy writers are coming...

  • May 12, 2003, 5:12 p.m. CST

    Fab-u-lous!

    by Buff_Angel

    Thank God that The WB got their heads out of their ass and renewed the best show on television. And to lead into it with Smallville...Excellent lineup. The WB will now have the "must see TV"! As far as Cordy, I will be sad to see her go, and I loved what she brought to the series in the first two season's. But realistically, they couldn't make her be that way again. She has grown up, and been through a lot, which will make people look at life much differently. Now, for all of those of you who are complaining about Spike with his shirt off, I just have this to say...."JEALOUS MUCH?" The guy is in his 40's and looks like a 25 year old. I say more power to him. Bare that chest James, I don't mind looking. And, I think he will be an excellent addition to the cast. Besides, who are we to doubt the creativity and ingenuity of team Whedon. They have brought us great shows and interesting characters for 7 years now. Go to it my friends. Bring on the best season of Angel ever!! Caio!

  • May 12, 2003, 5:27 p.m. CST

    Joss Whedon is a spoiled baby...

    by CISCO Bunny

    Let's face it, he's never had a REAL hit, something over a 6 point. And yet his shows are still renewed. This season, Angel averaged a 2.3 or so... and yet it gets renewed... Showrunners like Chris Carter, David E. Kelly, and Matt Groening, who have had LEGITIMATE huge hits, don't get treated this well. "Millennium" got cancelled when it was pulling down ratings that were higher than Buffy, never mind Angel. Futurama got cancelled, and it had higher ratings than Angel, and the guy behind it had produced the most profitable television show EVER. This didn't sway Fox at all. But yet, Whedon always gets his way. In other words, whose dick is he sucking?

  • May 12, 2003, 5:33 p.m. CST

    Worries over Spike . . .

    by TheCorpulent1

    . . . or, as I like to call him, "Angel Lite". That's basically what he is: once-badass vamp with a soul who swoons over Buffy. I admit, after seeing Angelus on Buffy during season 2, I absolutely hated the simpering good Angel of season 3. Moving to his own series reinvigorated the character, who had become so much of a little pussy for Buffy's love that he lost everything that made him interesting before. Even though he was good initially, he was still mysterious and a great fighter and a wealth of information and wisdom compared to Buffy, all of which made him interesting. Moving to LA brought all that back after his horrible role during BtVS season 3: he was once again appearing out of shadows to save random strangers, his extensive past factored in with flashbacks and repercussions of past misdeeds popping up in the present, and, most importantly, the time away from Buffy made him grow a pair (as evidenced by his shouting match with her at the end of AtS season 1's "Sanctuary"). Spike has essentially followed Angel's path in a shorter amount of time and to a greater extent. He's more of a bitch than Angel ever was. Now, the way I see it, moving him to LA can have one of three outcomes: 1) he regains his coolness factor by being away from Buffy, which is good, but further heightens his Angel clone status, 2) he turns evil again, making him a major Big Bad for Angel, which would be cool but would piss off a lot of fans and undo a lot of work from Buffy's last 2 seasons, or 3) he comes back as a human which makes Angel insanely jealous and creates an interesting dynamic, but ultimately makes the viewer wonder why the hell he's there if, being human, he really can't do anything that the much-cooler Wes or Gunn couldn't. Also, the third option leaves a gigantic plot hole in the question of why the hell he'd choose to leave Buffy, assuming she survives, since there would be nothing stopping them from being together. And her dumping him isn't too plausible considering he genuinely does love her and she's continually going to him for solace and compassion. Basically, it all comes down to the fact that I really see no need whatsoever for Spike's character on AtS. He fills no void, he adds nothing, he's basically useless. Of course, given the fact that David Borenaz has been packing on weight lately, Alexis Denisof is rather stringy, and Gunn's not the badass type to bear his chest all the time, there is always the possibility that Mutant Enemy is just porting Spike over as eye candy for the show's female audience. But, given that Whedon seems to be a "creativity over business" type of guy, I doubt that.

  • May 12, 2003, 5:47 p.m. CST

    At least Angel-lite can act

    by GypsyTRobot

    face it, DB is not that great of an actor. JM is superior to him in terms of acting skills. If the writers give him decent material, Spike will put Angel to shame.

  • May 12, 2003, 5:59 p.m. CST

    GypsyTRobot

    by TheCorpulent1

    I never said either of them could or couldn't act. I happen to agree, James Marsters is about 1,000 times the actor David Boreanaz is, and I like JM a lot more than DB, but let's face it: the name of the show is Angel, which means he ain't leaving. I meant that since JM's character is essentially the same as DB's, unless they give him a major change, he's unnecessary on AtS. Or they could do a body-swap like Faith did with Buffy, re-cast JM as Angel, and kill DB's Spike off. But somehow I think that would piss off a lot more fans than bringing Spike onto the show.

  • May 12, 2003, 6:32 p.m. CST

    spike kicks ass!!!

    by yeah i'm a jerk!

    bring it on whedon! i'm psyched for next years angel. i think this show is consistantly better than buffy has been ever since they spun it off. i'm still bummed about buffy ending, but i won't miss it as much now that angel got another season. the wb needs to commit to keeping this show on the air. so i don't wanna see them fucking with the schedule every other week and showing crap shows like birds of prey in it's place. as far as cordy is concerned, i read elsewhere that she isn't going to be a regular, but she would be in the series as a guest, sorta the way giles is on buffy. hell,make lorne a regular, and charisma can guest when she feels like it. to be honest the cordelia character stopped being interesting the minute they made her a love interest for angel. i'd rather see angel have a love interest that was trying to seduce him into becoming angelus again. not a resurrected darla, but maybe drusilla, or even dead lilah. i hope spike is given a good reason to be in L.A. does anybody else find it ironic that a large number of the vampire population seems to inhabit the state that most people move to for sunny weather?

  • May 12, 2003, 6:35 p.m. CST

    Spike yum yum yum

    by Vague

    I'm so glad that Spike is carrying on somewhere in the JWiverse. I agree that JM should get his own show eventually but he can save Angel while they sort out what his spin-off will be. Topless Spike is a good thing because he has a lovely body which means more girls will watch the show, increasing the ratings, so Angel will get renewed again next year. In fact, putting two of the yummiest men on TV in the show is the best idea ever! All the blokes who are getting grr about this, should think about how much more likely they are to get laid if their lady is all frisky after watching JM & DB. I think Buff will choose Angel in the end since he was her true love yadda yadda. Spike looked like a far better shag (kitchen table vs bringing down the house and invisible press-ups) and no pesky soul-loosing to get in the way, so I would choose him (damn I don't get the choice).

  • May 12, 2003, 6:37 p.m. CST

    Joss neds to put his print on it or it will fail

    by cooper2000

    Now that he doesnt have firefly I thought he would be devoting more time to fixing Buffy this season but obviously not so lets hope he doesnt throw in the towel next season too, especially with some of the writers leaving or we could have another mess like the last two seasons of his baby-Buffy. These shows need the input of Joss and "His Touch."/// I hope all you teen fangirls are happy Mr. Marsters is coming over. Wayyy tooooo much Tostosterone (sp?) now.

  • May 12, 2003, 6:40 p.m. CST

    Stop crying like little girls.

    by monsterx

    Spike has been the best thing on Buffy for the last three seasons. He actually made that show better than should have been. I have no doubt that his crossover to Angle will be for the best. I think he would bring a much need shot in the arm to that show, and a much needed sense of fun. All the people who are crying about this are out of their Freaken minds, and have no sense of what is good. They are just a very small group who has likes to wine and cry over every thing. This is the best news I have heard in a long time, and I know that I

  • May 12, 2003, 6:44 p.m. CST

    Stop crying like Little girls

    by monsterx

    Spike has been the best thing on Buffy for the last three seasons. He actually made that show better than should have been. I have no doubt that his crossover to Angel will be for the best. I think he would bring a much need shot in the arm to that show, and a much needed rush. All the people who are crying about this are out of their Freaken minds, and have no sense of what is good. They are just a very small group who has like to wine and cry over every thing. This is the best news I have heard in a long time, and I know that I

  • I think there is a lot of potential in Angel/Spike storylines. Let's not forget they have a history, and early on in "Buffy," Spike talked about how he felt betrayed by Angel. Assuming neither is 'evil,' there could be a nice progression where the two of them become friends again. After much bickering, Buffy jealousy, and rivalry, of course.

  • May 12, 2003, 7:03 p.m. CST

    Glad to see Cordy go; Spike

    by ulcer

    I can't believe all the bashing against Gwenn's acting when Charisma Carpenter is such a bad actress. Her 10 minutes of fame is long over. When I heard about JM saying there wasn't place for another regular on Angel, I was hoping that they would drop Cordy, especially since she essentially was not present most of the year, and therefore nothing but a distant memory anyway. And here we are; don't wake up from coma, I don't care. With regards to Spike on Angel being a bad idea, well people were saying much worse when they heard that Westley was going to go on Angel!! Remember? Don't pretend to know how things will turn out.

  • May 12, 2003, 7:23 p.m. CST

    Spike's the man.

    by monsterx

    He would probably Make Angel a Much better show than it is right now. Heck, He is a much better actor. Btw Cordy is not gone, She just will not be a regular.

  • May 12, 2003, 8:13 p.m. CST

    TO: Donnie Darko

    by Preditor74

    As much as I would love all that to happen...your'e such a fucking liar =P

  • May 12, 2003, 8:16 p.m. CST

    Thanks for the spoiler tag

    by Razor42

    A lot of good it does when the spoiler's in the stupid link >:(

  • May 12, 2003, 8:22 p.m. CST

    Spike Will Need A Change!!!

    by BladetheOriginal

    2 vampires with souls that loved Buffy on the same show?! Hmmm. The only way in my opinion this would work is if Spike goes evil again or something becoming a Big Bad. Lorne should be a supporting character again if anybody. I am open to any of the other Sunnydale characters appearing on Angel. Spike was my last choice.

  • May 12, 2003, 9:04 p.m. CST

    Thanks guys

    by deadend dropout

    I appreciate all the advice you folks gave me in the Buffy Bash talkback. Well, some things have changed since I posted that (funny how these things work out) it turns out that my sometimes abusive boyfriend Brian is going to be moving out of town next week, I guess he inherited his grandmother's house, who died recently. I'll probably never see him again...I have mixed feelings about this...even though I resent him as a person, he is still the only thing on my mind. I've been spending more time with his brother Aaron recently, and he's a fascinating guy who seems to have big changes happening in his life. He got a new job recently that pays much better (his boss Mr. Wilson was only paying him $8.25 an hour) now he's making $10 an hour. ...UNFORTUNATELY, Brian's asshole friend Steve recently got a job working in the same place, I really hope he doesn't end up doing the same thing to Aaron that he did to Brian. I have faith in him though. What doesn't make sense is that they JUST cut two other positions at the company, why in the heck would they hire somebody new? I don't get it. I apologize if this post seemed inane, but I just thought I'd update you all. Thank you and goodnight.

  • Maybe a g/f for Connor. That Fred is just too homely to be the 'babe' of the show.

  • May 12, 2003, 9:42 p.m. CST

    Yes

    by jedimast3r

    Very nice, the Angel/Spike dual redemption arcs could be VERY interesting. Cordelia never really made sense as a main character anyway. No tears there. But Spike and Angel, with their sordid past, both aware of each other's evils and both on the path to righteousness could make Angel an even better show than it already is.

  • May 12, 2003, 10:52 p.m. CST

    2nd last buffy was pretty good. Spike Buffy = touching. Anya + A

    by joeblowe

    Lot of funny scenes, and Spike + Buffy shared some moments. It seemed like none of the potentials died though... And Kennedy's 3rd in charge next to Faith and Buffy which is stupid, the uber vamp should have snapped her freaking neck. Xander was a shock.... here are the funny scenes: "What's your name?" "Buffy." "No, really?". Andrew and Anya - "Wheelchair fight!" "You lovveee humans!" "Do not!"

  • May 12, 2003, 11:14 p.m. CST

    Spike being on Angel

    by Scribe34

    May not be such a bad thing now that he's away from Buffy. We might get the swaggering badass that he was before he went all swoony over the slayer. In any case, Angel is a show for people in need of redemption - ie. Faith, Wesley and Angel himself. I think it would be natural that Spike would end up at Angel's side because who else could teach him how to cope with all the terrible things he's done now that he has a soul and once to redeem himself. Its apparently clear that he does not think himself good enough for Buffy's love according to the spoiler for the BTVS finale so I don't see him going after her now that she may have a new freedom in her life. In either case, I think Angel would be a good mentor for Spike. On the other hand, while I'm sad to see Cordy go, that whole business with her being a higher being truly sucked. Why they just couldn't let her continue to have the visions, status quo is beyond me. And those who think that CC was dumped for JM, I think that she may have chosen to go on her own, what with a new baby and all. If any one got let go, it was the kid who played Connor. Let us never speak of the whiny little brat again.. As for a new power female on Angel, if they don't get Gwen, it is interesting to note that there is a planet full of activated slayers out there in aftermath of the Buffy finale and it stands to reason that at least one of them might be in Los Angeles and since all slayers were activated, I don't see why she would have to be a teenager. She could be an adult whose was never activated until now... Its certainly food for thought.

  • May 12, 2003, 11:14 p.m. CST

    Spike being on Angel

    by Scribe34

    May not be such a bad thing now that he's away from Buffy. We might get the swaggering badass that he was before he went all swoony over the slayer. In any case, Angel is a show for people in need of redemption - ie. Faith, Wesley and Angel himself. I think it would be natural that Spike would end up at Angel's side because who else could teach him how to cope with all the terrible things he's done now that he has a soul and once to redeem himself. Its apparently clear that he does not think himself good enough for Buffy's love according to the spoiler for the BTVS finale so I don't see him going after her now that she may have a new freedom in her life. In either case, I think Angel would be a good mentor for Spike. On the other hand, while I'm sad to see Cordy go, that whole business with her being a higher being truly sucked. Why they just couldn't let her continue to have the visions, status quo is beyond me. And those who think that CC was dumped for JM, I think that she may have chosen to go on her own, what with a new baby and all. If any one got let go, it was the kid who played Connor. Let us never speak of the whiny little brat again.. As for a new power female on Angel, if they don't get Gwen, it is interesting to note that there is a planet full of activated slayers out there in aftermath of the Buffy finale and it stands to reason that at least one of them might be in Los Angeles and since all slayers were activated, I don't see why she would have to be a teenager. She could be an adult whose was never activated until now... Its certainly food for thought.

  • May 12, 2003, 11:30 p.m. CST

    If they were smart.

    by Voice_Guy

    I'm a writer, an unpublished, unproduced writer, but one nonetheless. I've been watching BTVS since it was still a movie, prior to the series. I've also been one of the original posters at the Bronze (the original one anyway) I remember when Mere was just as fan like myself then she went all hollywood un us. Gratz Mere =) What they should have done was give Spike & Dru their own series way back at the end of BTVS' 3rd season. Anywhoo, since they didn't here is what they should do. Keep Connor out of the picture, teen Connor was a mistake, he should've stayed a baby. Holtz should not have been killed, there was so much potential for his character. Cordy should remain in a comma, she lost what little character she had left after last season. Have Fred and Gun break up their relationship, Gun gets killed (I don't care how, but it should be related to his past somehow.) Fred, though no longer in-love with Gun, still upset with his death. She leaves L.A. to texas to gather herself, and work out her problems. Bring in Gwen, Faith, and Spike. Have Gwen join team Angel, Faith as a Rogue Slayer, Spike on his own to work out his problems. Lorne re-opens a new club, renames it something new stating that everytime he has a club called caritas, it gets blown up. Spike goes in search for a rumored Demon that can restore things to how they were in Spike's Past, he realizes that Buffy never loved him back, and thinks this is because he's a wuss. Spike thinks Buffy has a thing for "Bad Guys", and wants the old Spike back to gain Buffy's love. Inbetween all this, the new generation of Watchers re-assemble, and they have an eye out for both Spike and Faith. Oh Dru comes back once she hears of Spike's quest to become his Good ol' bad self. Which kind of happens, he's still got a soul, and does semi-good deeds. Yet he's once again become a Badass. Angel is like Kain from Kung-Fu, Spike's more of a Dirty Harry good guy/hard ass cop. Oh and bring back Sahjhan somehow, he was a cool villain, and what ever happened to Kate? Did she die, where did David the rich nerd go (playing Dungeons & Dragons with Andrew probally.)

  • May 13, 2003, 12:11 a.m. CST

    Could be good...

    by Killashandra

    I think that Spike could definitely be a cool addition as long as they work him in correctly. I do wonder if this season is a springboard (and maybe test) for a next season Spike spinoff. I agree that the series needs a "kickass girl" on the show, and not just a Lilah. One who can literally kick some ass. If it's Gwen, that'd be ok, but I'd rather see someone more closely tied to Angel. But, she did kick it pretty well and maybe she'd provide sufficient eye candy for the guy fans that they'll lay off the complaints about the guys removing their shirts (I'm firmly on the side of bare chests!). I'd like to see a mentor-ish relationship between Angel and a female character like the one with Faith. They had all the drama and emotion without it turning romantic. Romance with the lead character of a show generally destroys the show or the romance ends BADLY, which is no fun. Anyway, ya know it's not going anywhere with Angel unless they dredge up the Angelus/sex thing - been there, done that...been there, done that again. And, please, no more Darla. She's dead and dusted and dead and dusted again. I know these shows are about unbelievable things, but a third rebirth is getting to be a little much. And while I'm babbling, no more Willow. Her character, which was once so important to BtVS has been totally ruined. She's now weak, unimportant and, frankly, a fairly unconvincing PSA. She should have stayed close to Buffy, not become such a wimp about the magic, and stayed straight. If they wanted to change a character's preference, ok, but, they should have, I don't know, picked one who hasn't had such strong and convincing opposite-sex love interests. Seemed contrived and forced. I'm sorry, I've moved into ranting mode. Anyway, I think AH probably thinks it is time for bigger and better things after basking in the glory of her success in those abysmal American Pie movies. In the end, I'm just glad Angel is coming back!

  • May 13, 2003, 1:08 a.m. CST

    Donnie Darko Is Barry!

    by GoLeafsGo

    Who else could possibly write such nonsensical garbage?

  • May 13, 2003, 1:49 a.m. CST

    How about giving Spike Connor-like powers

    by The Smiths

    I doubt that if Spike joins the ANGEL cast they will keep him as a vampire with a soul. They will probably have Spike come back as a human and Wesley will explain to all that the prophecy about a vampire with a soul turning human (mentioned in season one)was not about Angel but Spike (which will piss off Angel). Spike is an awesome character but if he has no powers he'll become William "the wimp". I think that they should give him the same powers that Connor had. In that case he'll be human but he will still be able to kick ass. It could be explained that Spike was born from his vampire self (soul), similar to the way Connor was born from a vampire with a soul (the writers could come up with some sort of b.s like that). This would also be cool because Connor's powers were never really explored (besides a few innuendos that he may have some demon blood) and now could be through Spike. Also, I'm happy that Marcy Darcy (Cordelia) is gone. I can't believe how many people want Gwen to become a regular. She is by far the worst character in both Angel and Buffy history. She doesn't fit in the show; she's more like a reject from Mutant X. I don't even want to see her as a recurring character (unless they kill her off in the episode). Plus,even though the actress that plays her is hot, she couldn't act herself out of a paper bag. The female cop (Kate) from season's one and two was a great character--plus she was hot and a good actress. They should bring her back (though, I think I heard she left to do another show--hopefully it got canned).

  • May 13, 2003, 1:59 a.m. CST

    Jumping for Joy

    by vampiregirl

    I'm so glad Joss finally accepted the fact that his fantasy is the same as mine, Spike and Angel together. While of course we can't know exactly what team mutant's plans for the show are, I'm guessing Spike will keep his shirt on. My favorite Buffy moments were always the chemistry between the Fearsome Foursome, and the flashback possibilities are endless now that Marsters is on board. I am also not terribly disheartened by the fact that Saint Cordy will be making her appearances few and far between, CC has made it more than clear all season long she was ready to leave, I just wish they would tone down Lorne's schtick as well. ME has the potential this year to make Angel what it was always meant to be: A character driven chemistry fest, there's just nothing wrong with the show being heavy on testosterone, since it has always been the females who weren't regular cast members that stood out the most. So I say yay! WB for making a fabulous decision! Kisses, Tania www.itsabigrock.com

  • May 13, 2003, 2:45 a.m. CST

    joss doesn't care; he's making the FIREFLY movie

    by ihatemyfriends

    Anyhow, I'm still glad they dumped Cordy. Her character was so fucked there was no way to fix her. Besides, she wants to stay at home with baby anyhow. And all you Spike-haters--I hope and pray that he totally takes over the show because JM is a BETTER ACTOR than DB, jesus. I love it. Spike and Wes on the same show. Now I can get my pervy faux Englishman fix all at the same time. Let's see Spike and Wes balling Gwen. Sloppy seconds after Gunn, yeah, but you know Gunn is a bore in the sack.

  • May 13, 2003, 4:16 a.m. CST

    "JM is a better actor than DB"

    by Frank_Serpico

    So the fuck what ?? DB has managed to carry a show on his shoulders for 4 years and one which as far surpassed the orignal thanks in no small part to its leading man , I remember how many ppl were predicting that Angel would fail in the first year. I have the greatest respect for JM but have u noticed that his attempts to be brooding or angst ridden have fallen flat whereas DB makes brooding look effortless .Remember its much easier to shine in a SUPPORTING role where your ass isnt the first on the line . So no need to bash DB just cuz u wanna fuck JM and DB's Angelus still remains hte best villain on both shows .

  • May 13, 2003, 4:41 a.m. CST

    Characters are what's written.

    by TV4U2

    Remember an actor is only as good as the dialogue the writers put in their mouth. Ergo, crappy writing crappy characters. The WB is not c-span or pbs if they dump Cordy they need a new vixen to maintain ratings. My favorite character on the show is becoming Wesley. He has grown the most and delivers his lines well. Spike is a good actor. Remember the WB would have happily Axed the show if they thought it didn't have more potential and attracting former Buffy viewers Im sure was paramount in their mind. Gunn has gotten boring and so has Fred. They need to turn her into a mad scientist or something. Season 7 of Buffy was kinda lame. I heard that SMG was a primadonna Bitch. If you watch S7 it looks like their not having any fun and I am glad the show is ending because the characters were doing nothing but getting on each others nerves. Maybe it was her attitude that ruined the show. Now that Firefly is dead maybe Joss can focus on one thing at time and get it right. Sorry I gotta say this (I thought Firefly was boring).

  • May 13, 2003, 5:43 a.m. CST

    Gwen's gonna be busy...

    by DarqueGuy

    The actress who plays Gwen's just been cast in the Pitch Black sequel, so she's probably gonna be wrapped up in shooting that for a while. If they need another woman on the show, I'd suggest bringing in Amy, the amoral witch from Buffy. She's not completely evil, but she's dark enough that a regular presence could throw a real wrench in the works for the Angel folks.

  • May 13, 2003, 6:15 a.m. CST

    ANGEL WILL GET CANCELLED WITH SPIKE ON

    by provider84

    TO ALL THOSE LITTLE GIRLS WHO ARE SAYING JAMES MARSTERS IS SUCH A GOOD ACTOR GET YER HEAD OUT THE FUCKIN CLOUDS. HES GOOD FOR MOPING AND BEING NAKED & HAS RUINED BUFFY. IF HE WAS SUCH A GOOD ACTOR HOW COME HE ONLY GOT NOTICED WHEN HE WAS LIKE 40 & ONLY HAD AN EXTRA PART ON HOUSE ON HAUNTED HILL. IF HE WAS THAT GOOD WOULDNT HE BE IN THE MOVIES OR ON A MAJOR NETWORK> GO TO SLAYAGE.COM, THEY HAVE A LINK "WHY SPIKE RUINED BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER" AND IT SUMS UP WHAT HE HAS DONE TO A ONCE GOOD SHOW.

  • May 13, 2003, 6:35 a.m. CST

    The possibilities of Spike

    by Megra

    I am looking forward to seeing how the writers are going to develop the character of Spike. He has already been taken down a long and winding road and James Marsters has been up to every new challenge thrown at him. Of all the characters on Buffy, this one seems to me to have more mileage in it, especially in L.A. Like some others, I suspect that he will come back human but carrying all the baggage of his past life and unlife. Whether human or vampire, he will provide an interesting irritant. We have the fact that Angel has always despised him, whether Angel was good or evil. The patrician in Angel has always looked on Spike as bourgeois and second-rate. Now Angel has the knowledge that Spike has shagged his beloved Buffy, something he is likely to react to worse than Captain Cardboard. Then we have the fact that Spike's ensoulment takes away Angel's uniqueness. And, if Spike is made human, he will have the very thing that Angel craves. On the other hand, Angel remains the greater champion. And then, it is a toss-up who now is the greater self-flagellating masochist. Before his ensoulment, Spike regarded Angel as something of a wanker for the moping and brooding, only to go through a similar hell himself. There are wonderful opportunities for writing how they negotiate their mutual jealousies, their long back relationship and the similarities which neither of them will like to admit to. Of course, there are also marvellous opportunities for the writers to get it all so wrong (it wouldn't be the first time). Finally, a brief word on Cordelia. I don't think we have seen the last of her - the statement in Variety said she would not be returning as regular. That doesn't preclude guest appearances. However, as a regular, I believe there is nowhere they can take the character. I have enjoyed much of the history of Cordy (although bitchy prom queen Cordy trying to be good was my favourite phase in her development). But now I think it's time for her to accept her role as on of TPTB - heavens know she's imperfect enough to be one of them!

  • May 13, 2003, 6:53 a.m. CST

    The characters from "Buffy" who would most likely appear next se

    by IdFuckAvril

  • May 13, 2003, 6:56 a.m. CST

    The characters from "Buffy" who would most likely appear next se

    by IdFuckAvril

    1. Andrew. 2. Xander (did Nic Brendan's sitcom pilot get picked up?) 3. Willow (or perhaps Vampire Willow could be brought back in some contrived way). SMG and MT want to pursue movies. ASH probably will stick around England and act there. AH would probably be willing to appear in two episodes to help out the ratings, since her fiance stars in the show, but, otherwise, it looks like she's pursuing more movie roles beyond the American Pie franchise.

  • May 13, 2003, 7:49 a.m. CST

    Pur-lease!

    by JT Styler

    The Styler here. Blimey, check out the hate on this board. First of all, use your common sense. No way is Cordelia never turning up, she just won't be a regular and are we sure Spike is a regular or just a recurring cast member. Also let's clear something up, those of you who think Angel has always been brilliant - wake up cos you're wrong. Seasons 1 and 2 on the whole were just OK. Nothing more! Three and Four -Quality TV. TV especially Angel is all about change so get used to it. I expect that ME will make this work. All you guys hating on Marsters and blaming him for Carpenter's departure. Are you on weed? She's just had a baby and her character's fucked! Spike's 'pussification' is called love - character depth, guys, get over it. You can't give a soulless vampire depth except throught the one thing Spike understands - Passion. You guys want to a return to the Wil E Coyote character that he was in most of Season 2 apart from its start and thankfully end.Connor was wasted and is redeemable but your bitching has destroyed that opportunity as he's gone probably recurring. Someone here said that the writing on Angel's better than Buffy's ever been - To that, I say, yea right: Hello Cordelia and Connor and Inside Out (that episode's full of shit). Oh and those guys saying the real Willow was on Angel. That's bollocks, just inconsistency. I'm not the biggest fan of where Willow is right now but I am a fan of consistency. That was early Season 6 uber-Willow but you guys think you know best. Only the best Buffy writers are crossing - Espenson, Goddard possibly Petrie so relax. Oh and by the way, call me when you have your own shows. The Styler is done.

  • May 13, 2003, 9:34 a.m. CST

    Charisma Carpenter needs to lay off the twinkies

    by antnee21

    She went from hot to fat

  • May 13, 2003, 10:04 a.m. CST

    antnee, how about YOU carry another human being around in your a

    by PissedLibrarian

    Jesus, I am so fucking sick of every woman on TV getting attacked by ignorant jerks if she dares to go above an emaciated, anorexic size zero. Now women are not even allowed to gain weight when they are PREGNANT without being made fun of for it???? Christ, you idiots, it is not possible for a pregnant woman not to get fat unless she starves herself and kills the baby in the process! Charisma spent this whole season pregnant and carried on like a trouper for the show, and for her trouble, jerks all over the talkback boards have been calling her a fat cow. Last season, before her pregnancy, Charisma had lost so much weight she looked sickly, but no one criticized her for that. No wonder thousands of girls in this country kill themselves every year with anorexia, when these are the standards society gives them to live up to!

  • May 13, 2003, 12:07 p.m. CST

    forgetting Angel-Spike dynamic

    by dwam0

    Remember that Angel resents Spike because A)Spike doesn't turn into a completely different person when he vamps out like Angel does; B) Spike was comfortable being a vampire and didn't feel guilty about the things he did as a vampire; and now C) we have Spike macking hard on Buffy, getting her to do all the freaky things she never did for Angel ( okay, tht part might be my own twist). Now, if the spoilers be right, Spike may land to earth as Angel did all those seasons ago after he was thrust into a Hell vortex when Buffy ran him thorugh with a sword. Angel had the Scooby gang - including a dissaproving Xander - there for support, but who does Spike get - The Fang Gang. Should be interesting to see how much "support" they give the reborn Spike////P.S. Connor should stay off the show; Charisma Carpenter can't act and it became more obvious on Angel than Buffy.

  • May 13, 2003, 3:13 p.m. CST

    To Silveragent

    by Helena

    To Silveragent Once again you read between the lines and find out what you want to find... You say "Charisma in her latest interview said she looked forward to returning to AtS". Well, JM told recently that he didn't want to enter AtS at the expense of other member of the show. It's clear that in both cases CC and JM were doing usual PR stuff and their words weren't connected with real wheeling-dealing behind the curtains. CC won't return as a regular which is understandable as she wants to spend more time with her baby. She was wasted during this season and she doesn't need to be in every episode as a requisite accessory. She needs a good storyarc, maybe for 5 eps maybe for 10 eps - but she should be given something to act! Something really interesting! And she'll shine again. I rewatch the 3rd season of BtVS - there are reruns in Russia right now - and admire CC's terrific acting. I think you'd agree with me that it's not the quantity of screentime that counts: it's quality that defines the character and its impact. You say "Marsters publicly held out for more money at cons". One more of your readings between the lines with wrong interpretation of the words taken out of context. At Seattle JM was asked if he'll join AtS in case the show will be renewed. He answered that it was not decided yet, then said "Time and money, folks. Time and money". That's all. I doubt that he meant "I'm a greedy type who tries to racket more money from WB" (

  • May 13, 2003, 6:34 p.m. CST

    Antnee21

    by Buff_Angel

    Your comment about Charisma Carpenter was out of line. I'm assuming that you are pencil thin, have had a child, and have absolutely not flaws in order to pass such a judgement. She was pregnant for the majority of the season, which will cause you to gain weight (DUH) and your breasts to swell, which also makes one look heavier than they are. She is a beautiful woman, and although her character has not been well developed, she will be missed. I'm hoping that the rumor that she will be a recurring character, just not a permanent cast member, is true.

  • May 13, 2003, 7:09 p.m. CST

    Lay of the Twinkies?

    by Scribe34

    Reiterating all the responses made to the dipstick who made that stupid remark. Jerk.

  • May 13, 2003, 9:55 p.m. CST

    Weight...again

    by Killashandra

    I know I'm kinda piling on here, but I'm so sick of the weight comments myself. I think all the actors look great. I have heard comments about Boreanas' weight on these boards, and I can't say I noticed anything before then. If he has gained weight, then I say no big deal. And as for Carpenter, I applaud her for gaining enough weight to allow the birth of a healthy baby. Seeing the size of many pregnant actors, I would guess they gain as little as possible. Since they are terribly skinny to begin with, it can't be healthy for the little one. And who's to say CC even gained that much weight? Many women have a lot of swelling and water retention (that really makes the face puffy). This can be brought on by many things, like maybe working hard late in a pregnancy (like to keep critical fans happy). I don't mean to rant, but, geez, these people are, ya know, people.

  • May 13, 2003, 10:20 p.m. CST

    Marsters top billing...

    by Killashandra

    Has anyone else looked at the Angel link on the Fall Schedule at theWB site? It lists the cast for next year and has James Marsters listed above Alexis Denisof (and everyone except Boreanaz). I guess it's not totally unexpected, but still worth mentioning. I wonder how AD took that. Of course, Spike was in the Buffyverse first, if I remember correctly. Andy Hallett's also on there. Looks like he's a regular now. I know he drives some of you crazy, but he usually gives me the chuckles.

  • May 13, 2003, 10:45 p.m. CST

    Spike

    by Real Deal

    Well true to form the talkbackers strike the low end ( of intelligence ) again. Bitching about a good episode ( which half of you probably didn't even watch ) wasn't bad enough you have to complain about one of the best things to happen to Angel. Spike is a very interesting character. In some ways more interesting than Angel He certainly has had more of his background fleshed out. JM plays the part to the hilt with everything you would want from a character. Since he sort of under goes a change in the finaleof Buffy ( for those of you who don't know I'll leave that to your imagination ) he might even come back as human. Cordy by the way wasn't fat she was pregnant morons! So she probably wants to spend time with her new child. So WB can hire a new character that could do wonders for this show. By the way I'm a guy so I could care less if he takes his shirt off. Go Spike!

  • May 13, 2003, 10:48 p.m. CST

    Re: Spike

    by Real Deal

    Sorry I goofed up on the begining of my post. I meant to say " A good episode of Enterprise."

  • May 13, 2003, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Angel = Spike x 10 (BTVS Spoilage)

    by fantasticman

    The last two minutes of the last Buffy show the whole problem with Spike going over to Angel - DB is such a better actor than JM. He grabs the camera and steals the scene just by knowing how to deliver lines and play his character. Just sitting back with "you're so gonna lose" is better than any Spike action we've seen all year. Well, maybe JM can pick some stuff up from DB - since the entire cast of BTVS is clinically depressed (with the exception of Andrew) maybe it just rubbed off on JM. Here's hopin'.

  • May 13, 2003, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Angel = Spike x 10 (BTVS Spoilage)

    by fantasticman

    The last two minutes of the last Buffy show the whole problem with Spike going over to Angel - DB is such a better actor than JM. He grabs the camera and steals the scene just by knowing how to deliver lines and play his character. Just sitting back with "you're so gonna lose" is better than any Spike action we've seen all year. Well, maybe JM can pick some stuff up from DB - since the entire cast of BTVS is clinically depressed (with the exception of Andrew) maybe it just rubbed off on JM. Here's hopin'.

  • May 13, 2003, 11:31 p.m. CST

    Charisma Carpenter has looked a chubby mess since chopping off

    by Monkey_King

    And people thought when FELICITY cut her hair it caused problems. Charisma sabotaged her looks when she went with her shorter, more butch look. Old Monkey hasn't been impressed.

  • May 13, 2003, 11:36 p.m. CST

    Why hasn't anyone said this?

    by HuntMan98

    Did it occur to any of you that their is something VERY wrong with Spike going to AtS next season? Besides completely taking away any significance that his death on "Buffy" would have had, would he not just return to her if she lived (and we all know that she's going to)? Thing is, I love James Marsters. I think that he is without a doubt the most talented actor on television today, but his character was beyond ruined over on "Buffy" (along with everyone and everything else after season three). Seeing him in that episode of Buffy where the evil version of him was talking to the boring, recent version, was absolutely incredible. Not only did it make me realize just how incredible an actor JM is to play both parts so well, but how much I miss the old Spike. Old Spike was brilliant, pussywhipped Spike should take the short bus to work everyday. Hope to god that Cordelia is gone. She was great on "Buffy", and the first season of "Angel", but wow, what happened? Connor sucked. He was even worse than Dawn (at least Michelle Trachtenberg is decent eye candy). If the show never even brought him up again, I think that would be great. Ok, to wrap it up, remember what I said. Bringing Spike over would not only invalidate his upcoming death, it would just suck. Oh yeah, p.s. - to those of you who keep saying that Spike was great when he appeared on "Angel" in season one, I couldn't agree more. It was great. BUT, THAT WAS OLD SPIKE!! REMEMBER, HE WAS EVIL BACK THEN??! That was what made it so much fun!!

  • May 14, 2003, 1:20 a.m. CST

    Spike

    by Real Deal

    Spike on Angel season one was a riot. The reason is Spike has never been effictively evil. He's always been comical and a bit sad. What you see now as pussy whipped ( I never did like that term ) I see as human. It's an extention of the character we've known. In a way Spike is more tormented than Angel. Which makes him interesting and three dimensional. Just like torment did for Angel. The fact that JM is such a good actor means that Angel ( already a great show ) will be a better show.

  • May 14, 2003, 2:32 a.m. CST

    Re: Real Deal . . .

    by TheCorpulent1

    I get where you're coming from with Spike becoming more "human" along the way, but really, is he treading any new ground whatsoever? The problem I have with Spike is not that they changed his character. Being a fan of Angel and the new Wes and even, to an extent, of Connor's journey (though I admit, it could've been handled better), I'm all for change, especially character changes. It keeps things fresh and interesting. But the last 3 seasons of Buffy have been full of just plain bad character changes for Spike (and a few others). They didn't need to make Spike Buffy's bitch to give him some dimension. They already did that with Angel and, as you mentioned, his torment gave him depth. But that's HIS depth. What's the point of having Spike become a carbon copy?

  • May 14, 2003, 3:10 a.m. CST

    Hey, in case anyone was interested

    by TheCorpulent1

    there's an interesting article at http://tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnewsdaily.html?31560 that, among other things, says Gunn's new position in W&H's "grander plans" will have him wearing some nifty suits. As far as I'm concerned, it's an improvement on the khaki boots and jeans, especially if it has something to do with whatever the panther revealed to him. Piqued my interest, but then, that doesn't require much.

  • May 14, 2003, 3:18 a.m. CST

    Re Corpulent1

    by Real Deal

    That's just the point. Spike is similar but not a carbon copy. He chose to have a soul it wasn't a curse forced on him.

  • May 14, 2003, 3:35 a.m. CST

    Boo Hoo, I'm pissedlibrarian! Boo Hoo, I've got sand in my vagi

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Don't make fun of patron saint Fatdelia, or Tubby the Vampire or my boyfriend Connor, I get mad! Boo Hoo! Someone change my diaper!

  • May 14, 2003, 3:53 a.m. CST

    Re: Re: Real Deal

    by TheCorpulent1

    Sure, Spike chose to have a soul . . . AFTER the Initiative basically robbed him of the capacity to do evil with the chip. He didn't take that lightly, either, he spent a good few episodes trying everything he could think of to get the thing out. But, after a while, he got accustomed to it and decided he'd help Buffy out because it conveniently allowed him the opportunity to beat up on SOMETHING, even if it was his fellow evil demons, and afforded him protection from Buffy and the Scoobs. His love (which, I'll admit, is genuine now that he has a soul) grew out of a profound, obsessive infatuation with Buffy and he realized that a soul was the only means to his end, which has always been winning Buffy for himself. Paint it any way you like, he was forced into his humanity just as much as Angelus was into Angel's.

  • May 14, 2003, 4:13 a.m. CST

    Qwerty Uiop

    by Scribe34

    I'm sure she would change her diapers, after you did yours.

  • May 14, 2003, 8:01 a.m. CST

    Sorry to see Cordy

    by Jrzlee

    go, but I guess she could make guest appearances since she won't be a regular. As far as Spike, all I could say is: Mmmmmmmmmmmm.

  • May 14, 2003, 9:29 a.m. CST

    Would somebody ban this jerkwad loser Qwerty already??????????

    by gwencannotact

    Qwerty, why don't you just shut the fuck up and stop harrassing PissedLibrarian and everyone else who dares to give an opinion you don't like? Look, we all feel sorry for you being such a pathetic little bastard, but enough is enough. And why are you so obsessed with PissedLibrarian's vagina? Charisma Carpenter gained weight BECAUSE SHE HAS BEEN PREGNANT ALL SEASON!! Only a shitfaced little retard like you would attack her for that and throw a tantrum if anyone defends her. As for Connor, I think you must have a huge lusting crush on the kid, and that is why you profess to hate him so much on this board, to try to convince yourself (and everyone else) otherwise. You are way too obsessed with him and hysterical over him. If PissedLibrarian or anyone else likes the character, good for them. What the fuck do you care, loser? Take someone's suggestion and put that exhaust pipe through your car window already. What a dick.

  • May 14, 2003, 4:37 p.m. CST

    Poor, poor Qwerty

    by PissedLibrarian

    Qwerty, I'm just so embarrassed for you today. That was the lamest, most cringe-worthy attempt at an insult ever. I can't even get offended, it was so very, very infantile. Has anyone ever actually heard another person older than 12 years of age try to insult someone else by saying "Boo hoo, I am you and I need to change my diapers, I have sand in my vagina, boo hoo"? Excruciating. I know 7th graders who would find that painfully immature. Now Qwerty, I know you are all hysterical because I, a woman, refuse to agree with your lameass "Angel is fat and Connor is stupid" lament (which you have repeated several hundred times now on this board). Like most rabid geekboys living in their mommy's basements with no girlfriends and living through sci-fi television, you are threatened by women and so afraid of us that you have to attack us anonymously on the web with misogynistic slurs about our private parts. It is the closest you will ever be able to come to dominating a woman, I am sure. But try to calm down and get a grip, boy. There is no need to humiliate yourself so completely. I enjoy laughing at geekboy losers like you as much as the next person, yet I just can't help pitying you after that embarrassing display. There could not possibly be anyone lamer than you. It must be awful knowing that.

  • May 14, 2003, 7:10 p.m. CST

    Put that exhaust pipe through my car window?

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Uh... ok, whatever you say... Anyway, PL, you say "living in their mommy's basements with no girlfriends and living through sci-fi television" as if it were a bad thing. Surely its not as bad as being a bitter, lonely, middle aged fat chick who haunts message boards aching for a fight for anyone who even hints at being male, in order to gain even a modicum of revenge for the infamous "hogging incident", can it? CAN IT? Anyway, Angel = Fat. Fatdelia = aggressively chunky. Connor = sucks. Neiner.

  • May 15, 2003, 3:15 a.m. CST

    Sigmund Freud, get real

    by dxgarten

    >>Jeez--what is it with you guys' fixation on James Marsters' bare chest?*******Don't ask us. Ask Mutant Enemy. They're the one who keeps shoving the skinny bones Spike to you fangirls. Some of us simply think it's scary and creepy that they keep focusing on it episode after episode while there are much better things to focus about like....hey, how about stories??!! Or character development for Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles?

  • May 15, 2003, 9:44 a.m. CST

    I second the motion to ban the asshole Qwerty....

    by J2

    This is beyond ridiculous. The jerk has nothing to contribute to the discussion about Angel or Buffy, he just posts on here over and over to attack other posters (particularly women - he seems to like to degrade them with hateful comments about their gender. PL, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said he is afraid of women and uses the internet to attack them anonymously because he can't stand up to them - or probably even talk to them - in real life). I am a man, and even I am offended by the asshole's comments. The guy is a troll. I apologize on behalf of our gender. At any rate, it is long past time AICN banned the cretin.

  • May 15, 2003, 9:48 a.m. CST

    I second the motion to ban the asshole Qwerty...

    by J2

    This is beyond ridiculous. The jerk has nothing to contribute to the discussion about Angel or Buffy, he just posts on here over and over to attack other posters (particularly women - he seems to like to degrade them with hateful comments about their gender. PL, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said he is afraid of women and uses the internet to attack them anonymously because he can't stand up to them - or probably even talk to them - in real life). I am a man, and even I am offended by the asshole's comments. The guy is a troll. I apologize on behalf of our gender. At any rate, it is long past time AICN banned the cretin.

  • May 15, 2003, 12:44 p.m. CST

    Need a third for that motion?

    by PissedLibrarian

    You just have to shake your head in wonder at this Qwerty idiot. "Neiner"? It is almost as if he really is a bratty little kid, but his relentless hatred of women and any opinion they express seems to indicate that he is a repressed, grown loser mad at all the women who have laughed at him and rejected him over the years. Just imagine the kind of resentment toward the opposite sex that it takes for a guy to vent anger and vulgar attacks on a pregnant woman for not being skinny (and then to write rude comments about the genitalia of any woman who defends her for it)! I have absolutely no idea what the "hogging incident" is, by the way, nor do I really care. And while I am in my 30s (which some people might call "middle-aged"), I am neither fat nor lonely - I am happily married to a great, secure man who would easily kick Qwerty's pimple-covered ass (actually, I could probably do that myself) if Qwerty were not such a cowardly loser that he has to launch all of his hatred toward women anonymously on the web. The fact that you have no friends and no significant other should not lead you to believe that other people who enjoy Joss Whedon's shows are the same as you, Qwerty. So thank you for the apology on behalf of your gender, J2, but I assure you it is not necessary - a few misogynistic idiots like Qwerty do not make me or any other woman think you are all like that. We actually like men quite a bit. Qwerty, however, is not a man - waste products like him, we hate.

  • May 15, 2003, 5:57 p.m. CST

    Oh, poor baby, baby girl

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Oh, PL, my nearest and dearest. I don't hate women at all. I don't even hate you. I just love to rile you up. I mean sure, some people may say poking angry retards with sticks is mean, but I say its simple Darwinism. I've been here awhile and you come out of nowhere and attack me, did I complain? Short answer: No. But I return the favor and now you call uncle? For shame. You can speak your opinion as much as you want; garbled, sycophantic gibberish that it is. Just like I can speak mine. My opinion just happens to be that Angel is fat. And I happen to be right. This is my favorite line: "And while I am in my 30s (which some people might call "middle-aged") (Read 40s with lots of cats), I am neither fat nor lonely (I am a bitter hermit who is morbidly obese)- I am happily married to a great, secure man (And who is also imaginary and a handsome fireman or possibly J2 super white knight of the message boards) who would easily kick Qwerty's pimple-covered ass (Did you put a camera in my shower, you pervert!).

  • May 15, 2003, 6:03 p.m. CST

    Oh and...

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Fatdelia was fat, even though she was pregnant. Pregnant woman are fat and should be skinny. Young teenage girls who are fat should do everything in their power to make themselves skinny, including starving themselves and throwing up. Anyone who disagrees is a dirty commie scumbag. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

  • May 15, 2003, 10:08 p.m. CST

    Ladies, ignore this asshole

    by Scribe34

    Really, just ignore him. Its obvious what gets him off is not the arguments or the rhetoric or the any of the swill he's spouting, its the fact this is the only way he can get ANY woman to notice him. I say let him get his rocks some other way by not encouraging him any further. PS. I am also not overweight and married to a great guy....so I must be imagining it too.

  • May 15, 2003, 10:57 p.m. CST

    Yeah! What she said!

    by Qwerty Uiop

    I am also not overweight and married to a great guy! Lets form a club!

  • May 16, 2003, 9:44 a.m. CST

    Why ignore him and when he is so much fun to laugh at?

    by PissedLibrarian

    Yeah, that's right, Qwerty...any women who don't like you (read: all women) must be obese and unmarried hermits, since that is all you are and no woman could possibly be better than you, right? What a joke. You have been laughed at by a lot of women in your life, haven't you? Who could blame you for being so bitter against us and making up such absurd and idiotic fantasies about how we are really as unhappy and alone as you? Of course, we are still laughing at you - more than ever. You just keep making a jackass out of yourself, acting like a rejected little boy no girl would go to the dance with, stamping your feet and shrieking about how all girls have cooties anyway and you never really wanted them to like you. Poor, sad little Qwerty. You just keep believing any woman who laughs at your lameness must be fat and lonely - yeah, that'll work. You'll never have to face the fact that you are just an ugly, retarded, unfunny loser no one likes that way! What a clever plan!

  • May 17, 2003, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Not to mention that she couldn't ignore me if she tried...

    by Qwerty Uiop

    She sought me out, after all. I think she's lonely. Its kind of sad that a woman in her "30s" has nothing better to do on a Friday night then post on an old Talkback that is off the main page. Your husband must have been on a secret mission for the government, huh?

  • May 19, 2003, 6:52 a.m. CST

    Spike's gonna kick some asses

    by bratchick

    I see that lot of AtS Fans are pissed because of Spike. I just don't understand it. james is a great actor. I can see a bright future when it comes to the upcoming storylines... as long as there's NO Buffy involved. Ok, I do understand that some fans are scared... I mean after what Spike did to BtVS... sure, it's called buffy the vampire slayer but in fact... it was the Spike show... Also, many fans do belive that Spike could take something from Angel when in fact, he adds something to the show. Great acting and 'ass kickin looks' I am a VK fan so ask me how sad I am about the whole Connor situation. And leave Charisma alone. I mean just because you don't have a life besides the shows doesn't mean noone else can have one... :D Im actually glad that Spike's goin to be a full cast member. Im just curious about how Joss will work the whole two vampires with a soul thingy out... Im excited!

  • May 19, 2003, 9:58 a.m. CST

    Oh, sad little Qwerty - surely even you can learn to tell time!

    by PissedLibrarian

    I realize you are not the sharpest crayon in the box, Qwerty, but even a short-bus rider like you should be able to tell time. I never posted on a Friday night or any other night for that matter - the time 9:40 (the time I posted) on a 24-hour timer such as the one on this board obviously refers to 9:40 A.M. - if I had posted at 9:40 P.M., the timer would have read 21:40. Think you can understand that? YOU are actually the one who spends his lonely nights haunting this board, begging for attention. I have never been here in the evening at all. Clearly, I have a life and you do not. As for your continuing insistence that I am unmarried, who cares? I am married, and very happily, but what kind of a neanderthal moron would consider it an insult to call a woman single anyway? Being single is great, unless you are a pathetic loser like you with no friends or interest from the opposite sex. Believe it or not, single women these days do not sit at home wishing they were married! Yes, you are a lonely loser and no woman will have you, but just deal with it already. It won't make you any less sad or lonely to pretend that women are just as alone as poor little you.

  • May 19, 2003, 10:25 a.m. CST

    Uh, Qwerty....

    by gwencannotact

    how would you know that PL or anyone else had posted on a talkback that "isn't even on the main board anymore" unless YOU were going to talkbacks that were not on the main board and saw it? And YOU then posted on the same talkback, which had been off the main board even longer than it was when PL posted on it, you asshole. You really must be the dumbest geekboy on the planet - if you are going to try to put someone else down by implying that posting on talkback boards once they are not on the main page makes them a loser (a brainless argument anyway), then at least have the sense not to then do exactly the same thing! You just can't seem to stop embarrassing yourself with your idiocy, can you?

  • May 19, 2003, 6:56 p.m. CST

    You just can't seem to stop embarrassing yourself with your idio

    by Qwerty Uiop

    And you two can't get enough of my sweet, sweet loving! WHA-CHA! Y'all my bitches! WHA-CHA! Recognize!

  • May 20, 2003, 10:38 p.m. CST

    Angel upcoming

    by Darlaholic

    Just bring back Darla.

  • May 21, 2003, 4:03 a.m. CST

    Cordy gone!!!

    by cordysguy

    oh my fucking god no!!!!!! what are the people involbed with cordy not comming back thinking of are they stupid! must be because cordelia is the hearta nd soul of angel! angel is the leader, gunn is the muscle, wes is the brains, cordy is the heart thats how it is and without her angel will sucka nd should ahve been canceld! is this offical or just what people are buzzing about? maybe the wb didnt put ehr as a cast member because we are supose to wonder if she lives or dies. this is the worst thang i have evr heard how could theyn not have cordy??? everyone involved with this has lsot thare mind. i know lots of people that watch for cordy nd with her gone i think the ratings will drop,. to bad angel wasnt canceld! cauz it shoulda been without cordy

  • June 1, 2003, 4:56 a.m. CST

    Let's get it straight...

    by Cecily Halfrek

    I'm going to sum up the reason BtVS went to shit over the past two seasons in two words. Marti Noxon. Yeah, the one who gave us the Magick as Crack storyline, the one who tried to paint Spike as the Bad Boyfriend, when it was obvious to everyone on the other side of the TV screen that it was Buffy who was the abusive "boyfriend", then tried to ram the point down our throats by ordering SdK to write the AR scene. Marti Noxon should never have been left holding the reins of BtVS. She made Buffy into a hateful bitch, Spike into a pussy-whipped ho for said bitch, Xander into an inconsistent, morally bankrupt hypocrite, and Willow into a Mystical Crack Whore. Marti Noxon is no longer employed by Mutant Enemy. Spike will be a wonderful addition to AtS, which is a wonderful show.

  • June 27, 2003, 11:31 a.m. CST

    just wanna say...

    by Auron_rules

    All you sceptics should have faith!! after all JW DID say he gives then fans what they need, not what they want, and Angel's a constantly evolving show, just like buffy was. It cant just stay the same for a few seasons; thats the point, for it to change. I personally think Spike will screw up the dynamic- which is what I WANT to happen, cos that why I love the show. I want it to continually change, becuase it stays interesting. Sad to see Cordy go, tho :-( I'm even sad to see Connor go, i kinda got to like him in the last few episodes of season 4...