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Hey, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab.

F the Oscars. F them up their stupid ass.

This year, the Saturns have once again released an interesting list of genre nominations, and we thought it’d be a good idea to post them and let you debate the merits or demerits of what got included. Check it out:



Men in Black 2 (Sony)

Minority Report (20th Century Fox)

Signs (Buena Vista)

Solaris (20th Century Fox)

Star Trek: Nemesis (Paramount)

Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (20th Century Fox/Lucasfilm)


Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (Warner Bros.)

The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (New Line Cinema)

Reign of Fire (Buena Vista)

The Santa Clause 2 (Buena Vista)

The Scorpion King (Universal)

Spider-Man (Sony)


Blade 2 (New Line Cinema)

Eight Legged Freaks (Warner Bros.)

Frailty (Lions Gate)

Queen of the Damned (Warner Bros.)

Resident Evil (Screen Gems)

The Ring (Dreamworks SKG)


The Bourne Identity (Universal)

Die Another Day (MGM/UA)

One Hour Photo (Fox Searchlight)

Red Dragon (Universal)

Road to Perdition (Dreamworks SKG)

XXX (Sony/Revolution)


Ice Age (20th Century Fox)

Lilo & Stitch (Buena Vista)

Spirited Away (Buena Vista)

Treasure Planet (Buena Vista)


Pierce Brosnan, DIE ANOTHER DAY

George Clooney, SOLARIS


Tobey Maguire, SPIDER-MAN


Robin Williams, ONE HOUR PHOTO


Kirsten Dunst, SPIDER-MAN

Jodie Foster, PANIC ROOM

Milla Jovovich, RESIDENT EVIL

Natascha McElhone, SOLARIS


Naomi Watts, THE RING


Ralph Fiennes, RED DRAGON



Toby Stephens, DIE ANOTHER DAY


Robin Williams, INSOMNIA



Samantha Morton, MINORITY REPORT

Connie Nielsen, ONE HOUR PHOTO

Rachel Roberts, SIMONE


Emily Watson, RED DRAGON






Jeremy Sumpter, FRAILTY






Bill Paxton, FRAILTY


Steven Spielberg, MINORITY REPORT


Scott Frank and Jon Cohen, MINORITY REPORT

Brent Hanley, FRAILTY

Hayao Miyazaki, Cindy Davis Hewitt and Don Hewitt (English language adaptation), SPIRITED AWAY

Mark Romanek, ONE HOUR PHOTO

Hillary Seitz, INSOMNIA

Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens, Stephen Sinclair & Peter Jackson, LORD OF THE RINGS: THE TWO TOWERS


Danny Elfman, SPIDER-MAN

Reinhold Heil & Johnny Klimek, ONE HOUR PHOTO


























Yeah... a list like this won’t cause any dissension among you guys in the Talk Backs. Not at all.

"Moriarty" out.

Readers Talkback
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  • March 6, 2003, 6:12 a.m. CST

    stargate sg1?

    by astroboy

    isnt that nominated?

  • March 6, 2003, 6:23 a.m. CST


    by Rogue_Leader

    Jesus! Did you people read the friggin sci-fi nominations?? I mean Jesus! I thought I was reading the list for worst sci-fi films of the year with most of those choices. Man! This must have been one of the worst year's for sci-fi ever! Come on! Star Trek Nemesis? Solaris? Star Wars Episode II? Men In Black II? These movies all sucked! Hell, even Minority Report was not that great. Only Signs deserves a nomination. Come on! I don't buy for a secon those were the best sci-fi released in 2002. That list shows no imagination. They just picked the 5 biggest sci-fi name films released.

  • March 6, 2003, 6:35 a.m. CST

    OH yeah and best horror film is a joke too! So are all the categ

    by Rogue_Leader

    Since when is Blade II a horror film? 8 Leggfed Freaks is horror as well? PLEASE! Resident Evil is one of the worst movies ever made. Queen of the Damned is the movie that made it easier for me to accept Alliyah's death. Sheeesh! Come to think of it all the categories have terrible choices. Santa Clause 2 for best fantasy? Trasure Planter for best animated film? OH and what kind of F'd up category puts One Hour Photo in the same category as Vin Diesel's "XXX"?

  • March 6, 2003, 6:43 a.m. CST

    Someone nominated Hayden Christiansen for an award?

    by Bloodied Fox

    How the fuck did that happen? He sucked more then any actor in living history! Still, it's easy to see all the winners in this little lot, with the exception of best actor. Some of these nominatioins were just gap filling though...

  • March 6, 2003, 6:55 a.m. CST

    What the freaking heck????

    by Heleno

    Men in Black 2????Nominated in a category not featuring the word "worst"? ALL THREE BOND LEADS up for a Best Actor nod? Are these people on drugs? Have they seen ANY films this year? I don't usually use quite so many question marks in the average talkback, but honestly, this is just insane. OK, it's a joke, right? It's a joke. I fell for it. Ha ha. Silly old me.

  • March 6, 2003, 6:55 a.m. CST

    TB geeks beat me to it...

    by earthworm

    ...but Hayden Christianson, nominated for any award other than suckiest actor you'd most like to disembowel? I stopped reading there and then. Saying that, I think Signs was the best film I saw last year.

  • March 6, 2003, 7:10 a.m. CST

    Hey, Mori! Don't steal my stolen schtick, you stolen schtick ste

    by Dog Of Mystery

    I'm trying hard to sound indignant. Is it working?

  • March 6, 2003, 7:17 a.m. CST

    no soderbergh?

    by Thin Red

    Solaris should win best sci-fi. but where the hell is soderbergh for best director, when Chris "its-the-book-on-film" Columbus is nominated for HP?

  • March 6, 2003, 7:19 a.m. CST


    by Agador

    At least Frailty got a bunch of nods. Other than Minority Report, it was the best film of any listed above.

  • March 6, 2003, 7:49 a.m. CST

    you've gotta be kidding me

    by plushkelly

    queen of the damned, resident evil, star trek, die another day and (to a lesser extent) hayden christensen can all fuck right off.

  • March 6, 2003, 8 a.m. CST

    crack smoking fools

    by devil0509

    nuff said

  • March 6, 2003, 8:25 a.m. CST

    Mori, are you high? The TV Guide Awards and The Latin Grammys ar

    by TheFoywonder

    The Saturn Awards are a colossal joke!

  • March 6, 2003, 8:47 a.m. CST


    by radio1_mike

    The Saturn awards are industry awards specifically for sci-fi, horror genres, etc... So, in that light, their choices are narrowed substansially.

  • March 6, 2003, 10:03 a.m. CST

    This is a misprint.

    by Nice Marmot

    Natalie Portman is up for best special effect, not best actress.

  • March 6, 2003, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Andy serkis yay!!!!

    by DavidCamp

    Sure there may be some debates as to why MIB2 and Attack of the CLones are there, but the saturns are the type of awards where The two towers will be appreciated fully, and win in nearly every nominated category. Andy Serkis will receive his just reward for the years best supporting performance.

  • March 6, 2003, 10:52 a.m. CST

    Younger Actors Award?

    by twan_deeth_ree

    Elija Wood? Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's like 20, isn't he? That makes him an adult last time I checked. Strange.

  • March 6, 2003, 10:54 a.m. CST

    The Mothman Prophechies deserved a Best Horror Film nod.

    by Osmosis Jones

    SEVERELY underrated film (made Signs looks like the absurd claptrap that it was). Oh, and shout-out to Frailty!

  • March 6, 2003, 11:11 a.m. CST

    As the only film awards not biased against Lucas and Star Wars,

    by darthflagg

    AOTC was the most fun (not the best, mind you) movie released last year, and its visual imagination was second to none. It deserves far more recognition than it's got elsewhere.

  • March 6, 2003, 11:17 a.m. CST

    Men in Black 2 - Bobbins

    by Lord Ted

    MIB2 - a huge festering pile of eye watering shite. Should get the Non Achievment in Effort Award. Had the misfotune of seeing this film again recently in Spain. The dubbed version was infinately better. And I do not understand one word of Spanish.

  • March 6, 2003, 11:22 a.m. CST

    The Saturn Awards are for shit

    by T-MACK 1.01

    Look, they're just trying to fill up space for their awards. That's why Men In Black got a nomination it didn't deserve. Where's Gangs of New York? That surely is an action film at least. What the hell is Blade II doing up there? My God! And they should've put Daredevil up there becaue frankly, its a FEBRUARY release. Where was Mel Gibson for Signs? Or Mirando Otto for Two Towers. Or Soderbergh for the excellent Solaris. OR RAY LIOTTA FOR NARC! My God, these awards are a joke, and only exist to promote Cinescape magazine. It's an insult to genre, and Moriarty, why didn't you post the TV noms? Surely they deserve recognition, right?

  • March 6, 2003, 11:31 a.m. CST


    by TheAtarisFan

    how did they decide if Spider-man was a scifi, action, or fantasy film??

  • March 6, 2003, 11:37 a.m. CST

    "This is a shortcut ... I think"

    by Aronld Scazziger

    Hahahhahahahhahaaaaa ... these awards suck donkey balls. Hayden "Obi-Wan is holding my dick" Christensen???Muahahahahaaaaa. What a joke. The rest of dem noms isn't prettier either. Well, except Frailty of course.

  • March 6, 2003, 11:56 a.m. CST

    uh...Santa Clause 2?

    by Pulzar711

    This is a joke, right? :::shudder:::

  • March 6, 2003, 11:57 a.m. CST

    this award sounds like they would nominate anybody

    by liljuniorbrown

    But we all have to agree that the two towers should sweep this thing,and frailty should win every catergory it's nominated in,that was some original story telling at it's best.

  • March 6, 2003, 12:59 p.m. CST


    by Stifler's Mom

    OR ANY AWARDS-RELATED MATERIALS, for that matter, as soon as you see Men in Black II or Star Trak 10 nominated for a Best anything... why dont you just do a whole story on MTV's Best Kiss Award why you're at it, Harry?

  • Nuff said.... ....what an incredible lame list of pisspoor movies and there were so many good genre pictures last year,

  • March 6, 2003, 1:11 p.m. CST

    Hayden and Natalie, but NO Ian?

    by Shaner Jedi

    Let me get this right: Hayden and Natalie get tipped for noms in acting, but the great Ian McDiarmid doesn't even get a "Supporting" one? Ian deserved one far more than Hayden and Natlie, imo. Nice noms overall though. The Saturns do a nice job usually.

  • March 6, 2003, 1:13 p.m. CST

    Saturn Awards

    by Barron34

    Of course there will be clunkers amongst the nominees, because how many decent genre films get made in a year? Usually, not too many. Only a few good ones. Thus, a list in a category with five or so nominees are bound to have a few mediocre films/actors/etc. Still, such awards are worth it, to seperate the wheat from the chaff in genre films, and give the few decent films (Two Towers, Solaris, etc.) their props. In any case, the list is not news for anyone who reads cinescape online (which I do semi-daily prior to visiting AICN). What ANNOYS me is that both here and at cinescape (the media sponsor of the awards) THEY DON'T TELL US WHEN THE DAMNED AWARDS ARE!! Stupid, huh?

  • March 6, 2003, 1:31 p.m. CST

    Hey, Mori! Longtime Poster Here!

    by Barron34

    I want to be nice about this, especially since you are the most level-headed of the folks who run this place: WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON WITH ALL THE TALKBACKS!?! I have been a regular here for years, and what keeps me coming back are two things: 1) Getting the inside dope on genre films from you guys (Harry, you, and the rest of the AICN crew); 2) Feeling that I am part of the AICN community via the TalkBacks. The point is: with all the TalkBacks out of chronological order, chaos rules. Normally, people post and sometimes a good conversation gets going, especially amongst regulars. With the TalkBacks out of order, there is no thread, people are not talking TO each other, but AT each other. It becomes impossible to get a real back-and-forth going (hard enough to get a good discussion going when TalkBacks ARE in order; when they are out of order, it is impossible). TalkBacks are what keep me coming back to the site. I read a cool article, I read other people's resposne, I respond myself. I look forward to coming back later in the day or the next day to see if any fish have bitten and responded to my posts. Occasionally they do, and I have the satisfaction of that old, hackneyed internet term: "interaction". I prefer to call it "a sense of community". Without that interaction, there is no sense of community for me. If no one is likely to both read AND respond to my posts (which is very much so the case with TalkBacks out of chrono order), I have little incentive to write any sort of posts, much less well-thought out ones. I have little incentive to post, I have little incentive to come back the next day, since I know no one is likely to get a good discussion going on a TalkBack that is out of order. No continuity, no communication, no sense of community. At that point, it is really the point of diminishing returns to read and post at all. Frankly, if AICN does not have that TalkBack community going, I do not want to come to this site at all anymore, after years of being a loyal reader and regular poster. Without the interaction of the TalkBack, the place would be a shell of its former self to me, and that would be sad. If I want insider information and movie news, there are other places that I can go. I come here to AICN instead because it is a fun place with its own character and personality. Without real TalkBacks, that personality is no longer accessible to me. And these consistently mixed up TalkBack chronologies make it impossible for me to be properly involved with the site. I do not want to stop coming to AICN, but if this TalkBack problem persists, there will be little reason for me to come here other than very briefly to quickly persuse articles, which would make this like just about any other news and information site that I use on the Net: impersonal, boring, and not a real destination, but a mere blip on my radar screen. Please fix the TalkBacks. Thanks. (BTW, the e-mail link to my nick is not active anymore. If anyone wants to e-mail me regarding this stuff, I can be reached at: Barron out.

  • March 6, 2003, 1:33 p.m. CST

    They nominated MEN IN BLACK II?!! As BEST SCI-FI FILM?!! ARE T

    by Uncle Sam

    Seriously, that movie was utter shit. The most paper-thin, feather-light, unoriginal, piss-poor excuse for a sequel EVER. And NO ONE in AOTC should be nominated for best actor/actress/supporting whatever. The performances in Episode II were non-performances. My CAT could portray a more convincing Anakin Skywalker than Hayden Christiansen did. I hope Darth Vader shows up early in Episode III. - I WANT YOU, but not in that way.

  • March 6, 2003, 1:37 p.m. CST

    Well, That's Embarrassing

    by Barron34

    As soon as I start to complain about TalkBacks being out of order, my posts start being put in order! Crazy! For the past several days, I have been frustrated, because everytime I have posted to AICN (several times in several different locations on the site over past days), my posts have been out of chronological order, as have all the other posts on the TalkBack boards, as I have looked them over. Can someone please explain to me why TalkBacks are not simply put into normal chronogical order? I have seen the phenomenon before, and have yet to get any good explanation for it. It seems to me thta it would be better for the site and everyone involved if posts were simply in time order, so that way we (the TalkBackers) could have coherent conversations about the articles and each others responses. Elementary, right? Someone talk me down out of this tree I've been driven up over the past few days. Thanks.

  • March 6, 2003, 1:54 p.m. CST

    Ewan McGregor

    by Lazarus Long

    Come on, if there's anyone from Star Wars that deserves a nom it's him. Great work, and the only actor who really stood out. Christiansen wasn't as bad as people want him to be, but he really only came alive halfway through the film. But Pierce Fucking Brosnam? Give me a fucking break. I thought The Bourne Identity is the only action film that actually exceeded expectation, and was made with some actual craft. Road to Perdition was too full of its Oscar baiting self. And Minority Report should be disqualified for selling out Dick's original material, whatever its achievements.

  • March 6, 2003, 1:59 p.m. CST

    Men in Black II. Resident Evil. Queen of the Damned. The Scor

    by Demosthenes2

    <<breaks into hysterics>>

  • March 6, 2003, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Hayden Christiansen. . .Best what?!!! I must be reading things

    by BigPoppi

    Hayden Christiansen for best actor? You might as well nominate Steve-O for Jackass the Movie while we're at it.

  • March 6, 2003, 2:31 p.m. CST

    What about "DOG SOLDIERS?"

    by Uncapie

    Sure, the edited version was on the Sci Fi channel first but, it played at the Egyptian Theater for a week.

  • March 6, 2003, 2:31 p.m. CST


    by O.L.Jesus

    yeah, seriously if Hayden Christensen wins anything but a rasberry Im shitting a holy brick.

  • March 6, 2003, 3 p.m. CST


    by tom_joad

    Cant believe they nominated Resident Evil and not Below. Below although not a lot of people watched was so much better than some of the nominated films.

  • March 6, 2003, 3:56 p.m. CST

    That's an awful lot of categories

    by daughter of time

    Other than "straight" dramas or comedies, is there a film made this year that didn't get a nomination? Which tends to make the whole thing rather worthless. Science Fiction? Fantasy? Horror? Action/Adventure/Thriller? Up to six nominees for each? And then a whole separate category for "younger" actors. Isn't Hayden Christensen in his mid-20s by now? Younger than what? And I'd put Elijah Wood straight into a "Best Actor" slot. SURELY no one can say he doesn't deliver more depth and complexity as Frodo than Pierce Brosnan as James Bond!

  • March 6, 2003, 4 p.m. CST

    Spirited Away! WOOHOO!!!

    by PsychoFire

    Normally I don't do this whole "TalkBack" thing, but I just want to say after seeing the many nominations that Spirited Away got, I feel like the movie is finally getting the recognition it deserves. Miyazaki-san is a genius, and his work definately deserves more attention than what he got at the Oscars. Although.. The MIIB and SW2 nominations make me cringe. Both were mindless summer fare I could care less about.

  • March 6, 2003, 6:11 p.m. CST

    Mori - Can you put up the TV noms too please?

    by DonnaDarko

    The films noms are abysmal. All I know is Farscape is up for 3 Awards in the TV catagory: Best Syndicated/Cable Television Series, Best TV Actor - Ben Browder, Best TV Actress - Claudia Black. I hope the show wins all three. The awards will be held on May 18th.

  • March 6, 2003, 6:29 p.m. CST

    Dog Soldiers producer speaks

    by DAllen24

    Hey Guys, David Allen here. I know some of you have asked why our film didn't get nominated. I don't know why Moriarty didn't put the entire list from The Hollywood Reporter, but DOG SOLDIERS did get nominated. We are nominated in the category of DVD RELEASE. You can go to the Saturn Awards website and look at the entire list. We are very very honored to be nominated and feel very fortunate to be recognized by the Academy of Sci-fi, Fantasy and Horror. Again, thank you to all of you guys who have enjoyed it for supporting us. Look for our next project soon. Sincerely, David E. Allen, Kismet Entertainment Group

  • March 6, 2003, 8:48 p.m. CST

    Not enough to snub Pacino for an Oscar...

    by zenda he even gets snubbed for a Saturn Award! His performance in "Insomnia" was his best work on film since "Godfather II"! Why no nomination!?!?!?!?!

  • March 6, 2003, 9:51 p.m. CST

    Apparently all you have to do to get nominated for a Saturn Awar

    by a goonie

    Seriously, why don't they just change the name of the Sci-Fi Picture category to EVERY SCI-FI MOVIE RELEASED IN 2002. This list is ridiculous. One of the biggest sacks of awards shit I have ever seen. Without hyperbole. First off, Hayden Christensen is one of the worst actors ever to walk the earth, and his performance in AOTC is on a level of atrocity the likes of which are very very rare. Milla Jovovich signs on to a crappy video-game movie and does nothing but look pretty and she gets a Best Actress nod? Star Trek: Nemesis and AOTC for Best Sci-Fi? Die Another Day sucks, by the way! Man, seriously... I haven't been this peeved by other people's ignorant stupidity since I saw Dark Blue. This is flat-out, without doubt, completely ridiculous. The only good thing about this fucking list is that Emily Watson received recognition for her work in Red Dragon and that FINALLY someone noticed the brilliant performance by Connie Nielsen in One Hour Photo. Other than that, fuck the SATURNS in their stupid asses, not the Oscars.

  • March 6, 2003, 9:58 p.m. CST


    by Meier

    Well, Spirited Away not getting nominated in direction is a crime, but nice to see it get a few noms outside of animation. :)

  • March 7, 2003, 12:14 a.m. CST

    What a fucking joke. I would have put "Below" on the horror lis

    by CranialLeak

  • March 7, 2003, 1:33 a.m. CST

    Too Many Award's Shows

    by Weeble

    These categories all have one thing in common. A few winner's, a whole lot a loser's.

  • March 7, 2003, 1:37 a.m. CST

    Did anybody check the Worth of 2002 on

    by DomisInnerChild

    Attack of the Clones (specifically Portman and Christianson) and Men in Black II is all over that thing. I don't know if this is DVD release marketing payoff genius or just says something sad about the state of science fiction in cinema when these are the best movies. I mean, seriously, there have been a whole lot of counter nominations. What else is there? Simone? Jason X?

  • March 7, 2003, 5:03 a.m. CST

    Awards suck!

    by Xphile69

    Eat it Losers!!

  • March 7, 2003, 5:50 a.m. CST

    AOTC IS deserving of being nominated, fanboys, and here's why:

    by darthflagg

    It got a 63% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes, which is very good as most critics dislike sci-fi/fantasy film. The people who diliked AOTC are in the MINORITY, accept it. Having said that, I'd rather McGregor, Lee and McDiarmid had been nominated for acting, instead of Christensen and Portman. Oh, and Signs was extremely overrated. Anyone who criticises AOTC's plot, then praises a movie which has the WORST ENDING IN HISTORY, has no credibility in my book. That is all.

  • March 7, 2003, 5:51 a.m. CST

    And I'm aware that I can't spell . . .

    by darthflagg

    But that doesn't change the fact that AOTC owns all your arses.

  • March 7, 2003, 11:04 a.m. CST

    My Winners (according to the Saturn Nominations)

    by RevengeOfTheJedi

    Best Sci-Fi: Star Wars: Episode II AOTC / Best Fantasy: LOTR The Two Towers / Best Horror: Blade 2 / Best Action: Die Another Day (only until the ice castle, from there on it's best of the worst, except the car). Otherwise it would be Road to Perdition, but is this an Action Movie? / Best Animated: Spirited Away, plus most fun to watch: tie ICE AGE and LILO & STITCH / Best Actor: Tom Cruise or maybe Viggo / Best Actress: tough one: aaehm i'll go for Natascha or Naomi / Best supp. Actor: Andy Serkis ;-) / Best supp. Actress: Samantha Morton (she was a real scene stealer in MR) / Best Young Actor: Elijah Wood / Best Director: Peter Jackson / Best Writer: LOTR: TTT Writers / Best Music: Howard Shore / Best Costume: LOTR TTT / Best Make-Up: BLADE 2!! / Best F/X: LOTR TTT because of Gollum otherwise it would be AOTC.

  • March 7, 2003, 1:20 p.m. CST


    by OsamaBinBlofeld

    I don't know about these, I mean XXX being on here is not a good sign. I am really glad though that Toby Stevens was nominated for Die Another Day but what was Halle Berry doing in best supporting actress category because she pulled the worse performance in that movie. I would have rather seen the wonderful Rosamund Pike get a nod.

  • March 7, 2003, 4:46 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    Orson, are you here? Check out the 3-D puzzle of the Golden Hall, especially the stonework on the floor: I would love a floorplan, to see how they imagined Theodred's chamber fitting inside this space. How could a people of such dazzling design consciousness not have more than three combs among them?

  • March 7, 2003, 5:08 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    I just read that the TTT extended edition will include more Ents vs. orcs at Isengard - it sounded like mostly to show off the designers' inventiveness in orc-destruction. Does anyone else think they risk tampering with perfection? The scene as is has such great momentum and power, and there are other less-perfect segments that would benefit more from being extended (such as the quiet, character-driven scenes, where you can almost feel the cuts).

  • March 7, 2003, 6:37 p.m. CST

    Good and bad . . .

    by William-Miller

    Nods for Signs, Road to Perdition and Solaris is a bonus when the Oscars didn't give them the credit they deserved, but I'm not sure about the rest of the list. I was frustrated by the academy award nominations, but in an other way, this list is still just as flawed.

  • March 7, 2003, 8:19 p.m. CST

    The War

    by daughter of time

    Frija, I'm assuming that when Merry and Pippin talk about "the war," they mean the whole struggle against Sauron that their friends were already engaged in, even if they have no knowledge of Rohan. Since they did meet Gandalf (and I know this is not in the film, but perhaps it's one of the things we can assume), he might have filled them in a bit, though it's rather frustrating not knowing what he said to them - and surely whatever he knew, Treebeard would know! Much as I want more of Frodo and Sam, it's Merry and Pippin's thread that really needs the extra scenes. However, it would take a MAJOR re-edit to completely change Treebeard's motivation, so I'd put my money on just the Ent draught scene showing up - and maybe a longer approach to Isengard, because you are right, we don't even see them approach the walls. Among other things, it would be a plus to see Saruman react to their arrival - it is so completely outside his calculations. The one real weakness of the Destruction of Isengard is that Saruman just runs around feebly, without his big moment of realizing his plans are laid waste. For that matter, I miss the gloating he did in last March's preview. ***Which leads me into another thought: didn't the preview give the impression that Aragorn was going to accept his heritage in this movie? In the preview, his throwing back the doors seemed much stronger, because it was grouped with the lines about Sauron fearing him, and Gandalf thinking he's found the lost king of Gondor, etc., so that the moment had a greater resonance (I think) than it does in the theatrical version. To use the popular phrase, he looked like he was there to kick ass - in the long term, Sauron's. Yet in the movie, he simply doesn't act confident until after his scene with the boy - and never DOES have the kind of confidence the preview implied, of a man finally in touch with his destiny.

  • March 7, 2003, 10:19 p.m. CST

    MINORITY REPORT and THE TWO TOWERS were the two best films of 20

    by Rollo Tomassi

    Genre or otherwise, those two were the best films of the year, in my opinion. And it's great to see someone acknowledge SOLARIS as well. So I can accept whatever other mistakes the Saturn Awards may have made.

  • March 7, 2003, 10:44 p.m. CST

    A.K.A. The retarded nerd awards

    by Wee Willie

    MIB 2? Pierce Brosnan for Best Actor? There are too many awards out there.

  • March 8, 2003, 1:06 a.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    Frija, I think one of the most nonsensical moments in TTT is when Aragorn reads the tracks leading into Fangorn, and everyone acts so appalled about "what madness drove them there?" Uh, the fact that otherwise they were going to be speared, trampled, burned, or eaten...! Considering the alternatives, why would they be deterred by a few groaning trees?

  • March 8, 2003, 4:34 a.m. CST

    What should win and what probably will.

    by alpha

  • March 8, 2003, 7:43 a.m. CST


    by Spacesheik

    Oh, shit, more like the Golden Turkey Awards LMAO

  • March 8, 2003, 7:01 p.m. CST

    Glorious News

    by daughter of time

    According to quotes from PJ over on TORN, the special effects for the Extended Version almost all revolve around more scenes for Merry/Pippin/Treebeard and Gollum (which I hope includes Frodo/Sam, as he can only do so much talking to himself). Hurrah!!!

  • March 9, 2003, 12:59 a.m. CST

    Aw, Man

    by BowelMooovment

    Granted, Nemesis was a great, great movie (JK), but do you really think anything other than Frailty desrves to win an award this year? Get the DVD - Paxton's commentary is pretty good; humble yet educated in a film school way.

  • March 10, 2003, 10:34 a.m. CST

    That's some funny stuff there, Elanor & morGoth...

    by mortsleam

    And some much needed sanity as well. It was getting to the point where I didn't want to come here anymore if all there was to read were a bunch of self-congratulatory slams at PJ & Co.'s mistakes. Which is not to say that DoT and Frija's problems with the movie are legitimate, and that I don't share many (though certainly not all) of those veiws. But damn, enough's enough. Hell, OrsonW is still railing at the wind over at the Hobbit Fan Trailer TB. Let's get back to talking about what matters. So...who's playing Ghan Buri Ghan again? I vote for Patrick "Cro-Magnon Forehead" Swayze...

  • March 10, 2003, 10:39 a.m. CST

    "Which is not to say that DoT and Frija's problems with the movi

    by mortsleam

    Sorry about that. Them darn double negatives don't always not get me...

  • March 10, 2003, 2 p.m. CST

    Frodo of the Niiiiiiine Fingers...

    by daughter of time

    and the Ring of DOOM. Which should clue you all in that I finally checked out the Rankin-Bass ROTK and spent late Saturday night/early Sunday morning alternately cringing and wheezing with helpless laughter. Even though it isn't due back until next weekend, I refuse to watch it again for fear I might actually REMEMBER the songs. "Where There's a Whip, There's a Way" with its "Crack! Slash! Duh-duh-duh-duh" is quite insidious. And "Frodo of the Nine Fingers" would rise up and make me choke even when no one was singing. Could they have made the hobbits any uglier? Or Elrond... with his resemblance to a ghoulish Abe Lincoln, and that ring of sparkly flies circling his head! And the Phial... ("Hmmm, what is this in Mr. Frodo's magic cloak?" "Sorry, Sam, I can't tell you how it works, or I might have to kill you." Or something like that.) Still, give it credit for (in its own bizarre fashion) retaining large stretches of authentic dialogue, particularly during the Tower scene, though I'm not sure if I CAN forget the close-up of Frodo's vibrating bulbous nose as the Ring asserts itself. Oh, dear. As is my wont, it was hard not to imagine how all of this might have been fixed, within its own peculiar terms. (Is that self-congratulatory?) Because they were TRYING; I just can't imagine what was its intended audience. Probably the worst thing for me was John Huston's overwrought narration - and high-pitched Gandalf. (Have I ever expressed anything but rapture at Ian McKellan? I don't think so....) And how about that dream sequence - or whatever it was - of Frodo and Sam, on the brink of Mt. Doom, dreaming of just pitching the Ring into the lava, and then lounging about in the Shire, waving at friendly orcs! ***Enough of that. I have the most amazingly wonderful screensaver on my home computer, now that I've spent hours successfully downloading screen captures from FOTR, the SEV and TTT from and Everything but the money shot of the Nazgul... and how they missed that, when there's a perfect shot of Frodo about to put on the Ring, another of Sam grabbing him from behind, and another of him just as he slumps back against the wall and drops his sword.... (The same blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot they used during the SAG clip last night.) I don't think anyone else has praised that particular moment, so I'll have a go. It is simply brilliant the way Frodo flings UP his arm to drop Sting, as if it has become unclean, and he has to distance himself from it as much as possible. Not just drop it, or sheath it, or even hurl it away from him, but recoil from it completely. Now, if they'd just give us a longer clip at the Oscars and put that in context....

  • March 10, 2003, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Oh, come on, MorGy, you can do it

    by daughter of time

    You might even laugh as hard as I did. ***Re: Brian Blessed - yes, what a presence. He was the only Long John Silver that ever gave Robert Newton a run for the money. And then there was "Flash Gordon" and "I, Claudius." He is indeed bear-like, with all that almost CRUSHING energy and sly intelligence.... ***I suspect ROTK will lose quite a few peripheral characters, however - and I hereby give notice that I won't be complaining (about that, at least; no, really, I swear). Not with five hours or so of key plot points to cover. My bet is that the Rohirrim will just ride like hell to Minas Tirith. After all, these places are just hours apart now, aren't they?

  • March 10, 2003, 3:30 p.m. CST

    You mistake me, Stumpy McCharcoal...

    by mortsleam

    I appreciated yours and Elanor's jokes. They were a breath of fresh air in an ever more stagnant puddle. Individual Extended Versions. Classic. Pallando's gonna kill himself that he didn't come up with it. *** Please take no offense DoT, my mini-rant was aimed more at Orson than you. He basically admits to actively hating the movie now, yet he's seen it a 7th time. Either he's just looking for more artillery to fire (or perhaps pikes to hold against the horsies) or he's some sort of masochist. Again though I have to repeat that I agree with the majority of your objections, just not to such an intense degree. And really steams me that they've apparently cut down on the Merry & Theoden scenes to shove in the stuff they left off the end of TTT. And now I'm starting to fear that the scenes with Aragorn & the Rohan boys (The Helm's Deep Irregulars perhaps?) will take the place of some of Pippin's scenes in Minas Tirith. And I actually mourn for the inevitable loss of the Pukel Men, or the Woodwoses, or the Druedain or what have you. And yes morGoth, I meant Neanderthal. I was complaining elsewhere about one of the prime contenders for the new Superman movie looking like Matt Dillon's Cro-Magnon ancestor, and the phrase got stuck in my head. The whole Drug side story is fascinating, as it is a perfect example of introducing a new concept into "fantasy" literature that was only recently taking hold in scientific thought. And it appears that Tolkien unwittingly solved the question of the final fate of the Neanderthals: they weren't killed off or out-performed by Homo Sapiens, they were taken along with our more advanced cousins, Homo Sapiens Dunedainensis to Numenore, where many perished when the shape of the world was changed. I'll bet Runey is spinning in her pith helmet right now...

  • March 10, 2003, 5:03 p.m. CST

    If anyone is up for ROTK trailer spoilers, here's a link

    by daughter of time Of course, none of it is confirmed.

  • March 10, 2003, 7:08 p.m. CST

    The Money Shot

    by daughter of time

    Elanor, yes, that's a nice view, but not *the* Nazgul shot, which is the one with Frodo's cloak billowing transparently sideways and where it actually looks like him, and not a rear view of his (stumpier) stunt double. Why do they never show us THAT one? I'm sure SeatofKings will capture it, eventually, though I may need more memory if this jpeg downloading keeps up. My friends assure me that new computers come with lots of memory these days, so perhaps I don't have to worry at least until the ROTK jpegs begin mounting up. ***Re: the presumed ROTK preview: So Sauron will indeed take bodily form? Not entirely unexpected.... In fact, so predictable that I will just try to live with it.

  • March 10, 2003, 7:42 p.m. CST

    Funeral Pyre

    by daughter of time

    Perhaps Pippin just gives Faramir a tug to get him off the flames; if the loose faggots scattered, he could get the leverage to move him, if not run with him. Would like to see the clip, though.

  • March 10, 2003, 8:03 p.m. CST

    Another thought

    by daughter of time

    Maybe Pippin gets singed pulling Faramir off the pyre, which would make him look extra pathetic when he finds even-more-pathetic Merry dragging himself from the battle.

  • March 10, 2003, 9 p.m. CST

    Laughing Again

    by daughter of time

    Yes, MorGy, we saw the Eye, or at least, we saw something that looked more like a vegetable than an eye - somewhere between an eyeBALL and an onion - but I think it was meant to be Sauron's, because it had a vague flame-y effect radiating out. Eye flambe? I just can't tell you how strange the whole thing was. If you are going to bother to read the book at all, wouldn't the Eye suggest more a cat's eye than an onion? Then again, would you ever surround Elrond with a halo of flies/glowing planets? Or START with Bilbo wondering vaguely (after blowing out the candles at his 129th birthday party) where Frodo lost a finger? Or have Gollum as a very bright green frog? And someone before me must have mentioned the wraiths as red-eyed skeletons - except for the Witch King, who has eyes but no face, which reminds me of the spectacles in Disney's "Alice in Wonderland." And we get Denethor ranting about burning with his city - the speech was so long, I left to get a drink - but no Faramir, unless you count whoever's on a horse next to Eowyn during the general triumph. Strange is hardly the word.

  • March 11, 2003, 1:41 a.m. CST

    All right, all RIGHT!

    by Runelord

    Yes, I

  • March 11, 2003, 11:13 a.m. CST

    To paraphrase another epic "trilogy"

    by mortsleam

    That trailer report is a load of fetid dingo's kidneys. It has to be. Really. 'Cause if it ain't, y'all be lookin' at one angry Sea Mammal-Turned Master Assassin. I don't doubt that the powers that aren't at NewLine would be pushing for a physical manifestation of the "Big Bad" (curse Whedon and his sappy teen soap for saddling us with such a stupid name for Ultimate Evil.) But it really strikes me as something that could've been cobbled together by anyone who's familiar with the books as scenes that are very likely to appear in a trailer. With just enough twisted "adapted" scenes to piss off the purists. Does anyone remember them giving away any spoilers about changes to the text in the past trailers? Aside from XenArwen that is? I'm not a regular visitor to TORN, is this guy a reliable source? It just feels off to me, and rather than gnashing my teeth at unconfirmed rumors, I'll sit tight and quiety, methodically, sharpen my tusk blades. Just in case it's true...

  • March 11, 2003, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Why DO people lie?

    by daughter of time

    I mean, seeing a video clip is not something you imagine, though I suppose you could dream it. But as for Sauron taking shape before the end, I wouldn't be at all surprised, in terms of what PJ seems to think he needs to give the audience. Still think a few decent stills at this date would not be amiss.... What could it give away just to show us Pippin in livery of Gondor? Scarf-less, of course.

  • March 11, 2003, 1:56 p.m. CST

    The very least they could do

    by mortsleam

    Is to make sure there's a four minute ROTK trailer in the TTT DVD. I mean sure, by that time the regular trailers will be out in the theaters, but just give us a little bit more. NewLine can put it only on the theatrical version, that way they can ensure that people won't just buy the TTT SEV (or the IEV of their choice for that matter!)

  • For me, it's the line in the movie that hurts me the most. Because I sympathise with Theoden here. I mean where ARE the people of Gon? It seems that you just can't rely on them. Were they present at the 2nd-last Alliance? Or did they chicken out on that occasion too? I think it's time the people of Gon took a very hard look at themselves and asked each other why they are so spineless and half-formed.**** I am really looking forward to that SIE DVD that Elanor is talking about. I was dreaming about this and I can't believe it's actually happening! PJ and Fran, you have my eternal gratitude! But I wonder how you are going to manage it? Here are my suggestions... and PJ and Fran, if you're reading - and I know you are - I'd appreciate it if you could include some of the following features on the DVD......#1 an "edit" option on the DVD so we can stitch the scenes together any way we like. Personally I would be happy if I could just choose to NOT play certain scenes. Out with the Rowoks, the explanatory voiceovers, 90% of Helm's Deep, Sam's speeches etc.. #2 Even better would be a tool to cut INDIVIDUAL LINES and SHOTS here and there (like the "where was Gon?" line, "Our friends are out there", two thirds of the there is hope" lines etc etc etc etc). #3 Shots from the trailers that didn't make it to the DVD. Like the close-up on Aragorn's face when he says "ten thousand strong" and a better edit of the "Where is the horse and the rider" verse - both of these bits were much more powerful in the trailers. Oh, and PJ, if you want other ideas on how TTT could be improved generally for EVERYONE, you can read my posts over on the Hobbit talkback - though I'm sure you already have. Thanks PJ.

  • March 11, 2003, 3:20 p.m. CST

    Good lines/bad context

    by daughter of time

    Orson, I think you're talking about the effects of laying down the track too fast - and, you know, it's really understandable, given that they were writing these lines at midnight or even on the set; I just wish they could re-do at enough leisure for continuity. There are far too many "dramatic" lines that make no sense at all, when you think about them - one of them being Aragorn (in all apparent seriousness!) begging Theoden to send out for help - to people who haven't helped them in recent memory - across hundreds of miles of difficult terrain - in time to get there and back by nightfall! Put that with Gandalf's impatience that Theoden doesn't just ride out and "defend his people" instead of taking them to Helm's Deep - the only thing that saves them. A wizard should know better. I won't go into all the others, as it annoys people on this board, and we know what they are. And then there are all the great lines in the preview that would have seemingly drawn it all together and strengthened the idea of Aragorn's destiny, but were left out. (Apparently, it was more important to weaken his sense of destiny, in his vacillating with Arwen - and when she gave him that great line about going with Frodo and his path being laid at his feet...!) Darn, I could use that IEV - though first, I'd like the FOTR IEV, the one that gives back the original opening (but with the few bars Howard Shore's score added in as Frodo is running down the hill), so we get no additional Bilbo freak-out scenes and no hobbits sleeping with pigs - though I would like to retain Frodo's little giggle about "the rest of them will show up anyway" - and keep in the Green Dragon, but absolutely lose "Ash Nasg" at the Council, and from there on out it's lovely. ***Speaking of lovely, I am still waiting for Film Score Monthly or some such to explain the beautiful little theme as Frodo turns his head to lead them out of Rivendell - and never appears again (so far). I am not musically-trained enough to know if it's some kind of inversion of the Fellowship theme (representing Frodo's loneliness?) but it is just heartbreaking. And I want more of it.

  • March 11, 2003, 4:50 p.m. CST

    Reposting my bile. Bile is fun!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    So THIS is where you're all hiding? A girl comes out of therapy and nobody sends a card! Anyway, here's what I posted with only kindly Mortsleam to read - "Anyway, you're probably all wondering where I've been. Or not, as the case may be. So I feel I owe you an explanation. It all started innocently enough, you know. Pontiac Bow asked me if I'd watched Rankin-Bass' ROTK. I said, no, not yet. He said, sinister enabler that he is, that he wanted to know what I thought of "He's gone looney, I tell ya!" Oh, I laughed at the time. But I KNEW NOTHING! I was still innocent! I was still free! I could still have turned back!!! But no. Noooo. I... welll... I... I watched it. I think I told you guys that it had been something I'd lived in a state of perpetual curiousity over, because my friend in the US wrote me a letter when it first aired that was about 10 pages long, ranting about how truly fucking dreadful it was. I just thought that a) the movie was probably a bit lame but b) she was an insatiable purist (this pretty much mirrored our respective Bakshi experiences). So, anyway, I got the divida player and saw it on Amazon and thought to myself... well, why not? Can it be that bad? Can it? Oh yes it fucking well can. The less offensive bits made me feel like my eyes had been popped out of their sockets the better so that my skull could be raped. The more offensive bits rendered me so apoplectic that I've spent the last three weeks tied up in a darkened room on a constant drip-feed of valium. And I still ended up gnawing off my own feet in my frenzy. Happily, I don't need them to type." When I feel better, I will discuss the particulars of this experience, but just for now, I shall lie in quietly in a darkened room for a bit.

  • March 11, 2003, 5:50 p.m. CST

    Recover quickly, Alice

    by daughter of time

    I want to know what you thought of Sauron as a flaming onion!

  • March 12, 2003, 12:35 p.m. CST

    Re: why the people of Gon didn't turn up....

    by Orson W

    DoT, there is absolutely NO reason not to express your opinions, even if they are unpopular with some. I mean, you TOTALLY disagree with some of my opinions but I still feel I've a right to post them. So post away - if people get upset by what you say that's THEIR problem - not yours! Also - you are far from being alone in your opinions. ****** As for the people of "Gon" - I think this is purely and simply a piece of bad over-acting and/or directing. Would they really have written "Where was Gon?" in the script? It would have been so much better if Theoden simply said, "where was Gondor when the Westfold fell? Where was Gondor when our enemies closed in around us?" and LEFT IT AT THAT!

  • March 12, 2003, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Hey, Orson

    by Runelord

    Every time I hear that cut-off line I automatically fill in

  • March 12, 2003, 5:04 p.m. CST

    Exactly Rune...

    by mortsleam

    Orson was so busy cross-referencing the line with the book to make sure everything uttered by the characters wasn't added by PJ & Co. he never paused to consider there may be anything more to it. If they truly meant "The Men of Gon" then I'd agree that it's a fairly laughable line, as bad as (showing my full geekhood here) when the Star Trek Next Gen writers tried to name fugitives from the Klingon homeworld "The traitors of Kling." But there's actually far more to it, both in terms of the intended meaning and the emotional impact.

  • March 12, 2003, 8:32 p.m. CST

    Looks quieter over here

    by daughter of time

    Orson, I think the "Where was Gon--" line ends that way because Theoden is biting back his own frustration. It worked for me. What didn't work for me was the "No parent should have to bury their child," that others found so moving. Bad grammar! In Tolkien! And the sentiment smacked of too many talk shows. Really, it's a very modern concept. Ancient and medieval people were lucky if their children grew up at all. I don't mean that Theoden's grief would be any less real at the loss of his son and heir (and judging by the affection of his cousins, a prince in every sense of the word); I just wish the writers had found a less modern way to express it.

  • March 13, 2003, 7:32 a.m. CST

    "Sniff...First of all I'd like to, sniff, thank the wonderful pe

    by Orson W

    Yes, the "Where was Gon?" line IS expressing "frustration" - frustration as spelled out in the book "101 Bad Acting Cliches" - right next to "Milking The Giant Cow", and "The Joey Tribiani hard stare". Later on on in the movie we also see a demonstration of acting technique #61: "mildly concerned", which is the expression worn by Theoden and the Rohirrim throughout the Helm's Deep battle. And then there's technique #101 - "Weepy Oscar Clip Speech" as performed by Samwise the Brave several times.

  • March 13, 2003, 8:22 p.m. CST

    Sneaks in to say....

    by daughter of time

    Orson, you are rather near the mark about the acting cliches. Oh, your evil influence.... (Sings) "He's here... the Phantom of the OperAHHHHH." Maybe if we talk here they won't notice. Anyway, it made me laugh.