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AICN COMICS! TalkBack League Of @$$Holes Special Edition: A Look At Daredevil Comics!!
Hey, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab.
As you guys start to weigh in on whether you think the movie worked or not, our resident comic freaks decided to take a look at the source material and steer you towards some great stories that have been told before with these characters. Nice work, guys...
@$$terpiece Theatre
Good evening ladies and gentlemen (cue cellos). Welcome to the very first episode of @$$terpiece Theatre. I am the Moderator, the omniscient and lonely voice of reason haunting the halls of @$$hole HQ. Over the next year quite a few comics are getting the big screen treatment and The Talkback League of @$$holes have made a vow to be there to gab about the comics that made the movies possible. If you want a review of the movie, look elsewhere. I suggest you check out the million and one other reviews on the web. The @$$holes are going to talk about the comics behind the films because that’s what they do.
This week, we shine the spotlight on DAREDEVIL. On February 14th, the world will see Big Ben Affleck don a red leather costume and chase the ALIAS chick across the rooftops of Hell’s Kitchen. The @$$hole clubhouse is abuzz with anticipation for the opening of this film. As we join the meeting already in progress, we find Buzz Maverik doing his best Kingpin imitation, chomping on a Cuban cigar and icily watching Cormorant and Jon Quixote holding mock-trials in the @$$hole Courtroom/ Humidor. Superninja tosses her deadly sais at a bound and gagged Sleazy G. The Comedian practices kung fu blindfolded, while Lizzybeth sits in a sensory deprivation chamber and curses the day she hooked up with these spandex-clad, superhero-worshipping morons. Village Idiot is on the phone trying to get us advance screening passes for the film. To commemorate the occasion, Vroom Socko shaves a target symbol on the forehead of our mascot, Schlepy the Defecating Monkey. And Ambush Bug can’t seem to stop saying, “I am the Man Without Fear.” Let’s listen in, shall we?
AMBUSH BUG: I am the Man Without Fear. I am the Man Without Fear. I am the Man…
VILLAGE IDIOT: (on the phone) That’s ten tickets. Ten. For DAREDEVIL.
MODERATOR: Okay guys listen up. I know you’re all excited about the upcoming DAREDEVIL film. But could you tell me who this Daredevil is? Is he a Spider-Man knock off? A grim and gritty urban warrior? A flamboyant, fly by the seat of his pants do-gooder?
BUG: Sounds like a good time for a re-cap!
VROOM SOCKO: Sweet Jesus! Kill me now.
LIZZYBETH: Ugh! Wake me when he’s dead. (Closes sensory deprivation chamber)
BUG: Daredevil was created by Stan “The Man” Lee in 1964. Young Matt Murdock selflessly pulled a helpless old lady (or was it a man?) out of the path of a truck carrying radioactive chemicals. The chemicals blinded the brave lad, but heightened all of his other senses and added a cool radar sense for no extra charge. By day, Matt Murdock enforces the law as a fancy pants New York lawyer, but when night falls, he patrols the rooftops and alleyways of Hell’s Kitchen as Daredevil, the Man Without Fear.
MODERATOR: But what is it about Daredevil that stands out to you guys? Does Daredevil have a credo that he follows like so many other Marvel characters or is he a character that transcends all of that?
SLEAZY G: Like all of the original group of Marvel characters, Daredevil has always been a metaphor in tights for a more universal message. Daredevil is about showing that with hard work and perseverance one can overcome any obstacle. Daredevil is about the mysterious and deceptive nature of life -- the very events that seem to take away something precious, like Matt's sight, also granted him new opportunities to accomplish things he otherwise never would have imagined. We have a conflicted, tortured character we can all relate to with real-world problems who also happens to wear blood-red spandex and kick some ass. When Stan Lee's “angst + radiation = hero" formula worked, it really worked.
BUG: You see, I never saw Daredevil representing something as much as the other Marvel characters. "Justice is blind" may be a good motto, but kind of points out that Matt is a hypocrite. He doesn't have enough faith in the law that is the bread and butter of his job, so when he doesn't get his way, the throws on tights and whips out a billy club. That doesn't smack of any type of moral for me. Daredevil has always been more than a single flowery line describing what he does. He comes from tragedy and tragedy just seems to follow him. He's probably the most human and most accessible hero out there today.
JON QUIXOTE: Daredevil is in possession of one of the more interesting dichotomies in literature - by night a vigilante dedicated to putting criminals behind bars; by day, a lawyer whose goal is to keep his clients FROM prison. It's not as though he's a crime-fighting DA who uses his mask to do the job the lawyer can't; his role as a lawyer would often put him in direct conflict with the goals he aspires to as DD. He's far less an icon than he is a character. The same can't be said for most other super-heroes.
SUPERNINJA: To me, DD's always been the guy who can't sustain the boundaries between his personal life and his super hero life. With Daredevil, when something falls apart, it REALLY falls apart.
VROOM: My first impression of Daredevil was the impression that this was a person who above all else FEELS. He does what he does because he feels for the people of Hell's Kitchen. DD has always been the most empathic character in the Marvel U, which also makes him the most driven character.
VI: (on the phone) Ten. Ten tickets. Hold on a minute. My interest in heroic fiction has been based a great deal on identificatory investment, with the hero as my proxy or aspiration. since I would never aspire to being blind (and despite whatever souped up extra-sense Daredevil possesses), the comic did not immediately appeal to me.
CORMORANT: Whatta goof – back to rustling up tickets, damn you!
BUZZ MAVERIK: When I was a kid, Daredevil and Iron Man were the Marvel heroes who seemed like adults. Really cool adults. Spider-Man was too close to being a kid himself. The Hulk was a big baby. The FF and Thor were too far removed from real life. But Daredevil had a cool job, cool girlfriends and had a really cool hobby. This was the brand of adultery I aspired to attain!
CORM: Exactly Buzz, the first thing that struck me about Daredevil was the "adultness" of his adventures. I know Daredevil started out as more of a swashbuckling super hero than the dark, urban avenger he became, but it's the latter version that has become one of my favorite super heroes. The character supports a wide-variety of stories, but he seems to have found his niche as the most street level and adult oriented hero of Marvel's pantheon. He’s certainly more flawed than most super heroes, and that's why we love him.
MODERATOR: Matt's love life seems to be the most popular theme of the comic. So many of Daredevil's stories focus on his love life and his bad choices in that field. Elektra. Karen Page. Typhoid Mary. Echo. What do you guys think about the popularity of the ongoing adventures of a guy who continually chooses all of the wrong girls?
JQ: All the wrong girls? A Ninja Gymnast (bendy!)? A Porn Star (no limits!)? A Chick with multiple personality disorder (different girl every night in a box!)? Ain’t nothin’ wrong about dat!
BUZZ: For a long time, Daredevil was involved with the Black Widow. In the early '70s the title of the book was even changed to DAREDEVIL & THE BLACK WIDOW. She is probably the right woman for Daredevil.
JQ: I liked the Kevin Smith/ Joe Quesada Black Widow. Fuckin' sexy. What was the line she asked, as she unzipped her catsuit? "Roof or Couch?" SPECTACULAR! You’re right...she IS the one for DD.
BUZZ: So, of course, they can never be together.
CORM: I dig that Daredevil is one of the more sexually active characters in comics, even if his relationships tend to end with somebody dying. The darker side of love is a universal standard with which nearly everyone has at least a passing acquaintance. Daredevil feels more "real" than other super hero comics for acknowledging it.
JQ: Do you think that DD's promiscuity has anything to do with his heightened sense of touch? I mean, if you think about it, not only is DD one of the more sexually active characters in comics, but he's also one where it makes a lot of sense for him to be that way. He could very well be addicted to sensation. It's already been touched upon that his senses make DD a better lover...it might also make him need it, crave it more.
SUPES: I have to disagree that his powers would enhance his sex drive. It would be like walking around with blue balls 24/7, and you guys know how that is.
THE COMEDIAN: What I wanna know is how do you know how it is?
BUG: Nahh. DD would never be a sensation junkie. Now if Tony Stark had that power, I could see him going overboard with super-touch power. Daredevil is too much of a choir boy. He would be even more tortured due to his Catholic upbringing.
JQ: DD’s not a choir boy. The guy has schtupped porn stars and assassins. He dropped Bullseye off of a building. What type of church do you go to?
CORM: Alright now, Jonny Q, let's try to remember context. Daredevil had as good a reason as you're gonna find for what he did to Bullseye and it only seems like he sleeps around a lot in comparison to the chaste sex lives of other super heroes
LIZZY: (chamber door opens) Is Bug still giving his re-cap?
VROOM: No, now they’re debating whether or not Daredevil has a super-sex drive.
LIZZY: Oh for the luvva Christ! (chamber door slams shut)
SUPES: I'd think the heightened senses probably make Murdock feel very isolated, at least emotionally. He has all of these amazing senses, but it's probably more about what he can keep out just to make it through the day and retain his sanity. He's pretty together all things considered.
VI: (on the phone) No! Not KANGAROO JACK. DAREDEVIL. Ten tickets to DAREDEVIL! Dammit, they put me on hold.
COMEDIAN: I for one think that even with all of his hyped up super senses, his lack of sight plays a significant part in his failed dealings with the opposite sex. Why? Well, the eyes are the windows to the soul and romantic relationships thrive on eye contact. Many powerful unspoken moments between lovers are communicated chiefly through looks and glances. Since DD can’t read those moments it leaves him vulnerable.
SLEAZY: Jeebus, Comedian. Who’da thought you were such a romantic sap?
COMEDIAN: Now that I think about it, most people fall in love or at the very least flirt via eye contact. So how the hell does DD even start up relationships? Does he radar a chick's shape from across the room, trip out on her pheromones and heartbeat and then, when he get's close enough, stumble into her to cop a feel and do the whole "I'm sorry, I'm blind." schtick. That's what I would do.
SLEAZY: I stand corrected.
COMEDIAN: Yeah, I’m a creep.
BUG: And I am the Man Without Fear!
MODERATOR: Let’s move on. There seems to be three aspects of Daredevil's character that get the most attention. We've already touched on his love life. How about his job as a lawyer?
BUZZ: The important thing about his job is that he actually is one of the few classic Marvel heroes with a real job. I always assumed Captain America got a government paycheck and I never bought Thor as Dr. Don Blake ("I'm sorry, Dr. Blake had to cancel. Yes, it was trolls again."). But even as a kid, you understand what a lawyer is and the job kept DD grounded.
CORM: Daredevil's daytime job as a lawyer has generally been irrelevant to me. Like Buzz said, it established that he's a rare super hero with a truly professional job that rounded out his character, but I was always more interested in his rooftop adventures than him reading legal briefs.
BUG: I disagree. The legal aspect of Daredevil has always been of interest to me. Mainly because it seems to be an aspect of the character that hasn’t been done to death by one creator or the other. There is a lot of potential for interesting hard edge stories set around the workings of the law. In a way, Daredevil could be the version of the LAW & ORDER TV show, with the spandex clad crime fighter cast as the cop and Matt Murdock playing out the courtroom drama.
CORM: Honestly, I think that if you look too closely for meaning in the fact that this guy defends the law by day and breaks it by night, you end up shattering a somewhat delicate premise and undermining his integrity as a hero. I'd rather Murdock's legal career be something that percolates in the background, but doesn't come to the fore that often.
VI: (On the phone) Aww, fer christ sakes! THE BANGER SISTERS isn’t even in theaters anymore! DAREDEVIL! DAREDEVIL! Ten tickets! And now I’m on hold again.
COMEDIAN: DD's day job has been classically used as a plot device to link whatever case he's working on as Matt Murdock to whatever creep he's pummeling that night as Daredevil. It adds something to the character but I always enjoyed the cheesy Silver Age practice of having Matt Murdock show up to represent whoever's book he's guest starring in as their lawyer. "Your honor, I know Dr. Strange owes $12,000 in unpaid parking tickets but I have evidence that it was actually Fing Fang Foom driving the good Doctor's Pinto."
MODERATOR: The last major facet of DD's character is that he is a blind man. What about the fact that, despite his super-human powers, he is still handicapped?
JQ: I relate to Daredevil for reasons that have little to do with his blindness. He's been drawn as one of the more "human" super heroes. He's short-tempered, flawed, he's religious, and - most importantly - confused about his role. I never really noticed the blindness. Most of the comics tend to underplay it, use it for flavor, character depth and distinction, rather than a means of defining DD.
CORM: Call me an uncritical reader, but I never equated DD’s blindness with "blind justice" or any particular metaphor. It was always just a cool gimmick to me, like the blind swordsman in Japanese legends. This guy seems like he should be so cut off from the world, yet actually lives in a far more heightened reality than most of us.
COMEDIAN: One of the hooks for DD character-wise is that no one knows he's blind. So as Daredevil he basically has to fake it. Kind of makes him all the more amazing. When you think about it, a regular guy would be nuts to go out and do the shit DD does. Adding on the blindness really brings home the "Man Without Fear" idea.
CORM: Yeah, but sometimes writers are so focused on how DD's super-senses compensate for his blindness that I think they sometimes forget that it still *fucking sucks* to be blind...and that there might actually be some consequences beyond his questionable debut in mustard yellow tights.
MODERATOR: So what about the current state of DAREDEVIL comics? Some high profile creators have worked with the character. Are they doing a good job?
VROOM: Brian Michael Bendis, the series’ current writer, is more interested in the life of Matt Murdock than Daredevil. It's probably the reason he outed his secret ID. I'm not really sure how this run will end up comparing to Miller's work, but it's different, and that ain't bad.
BUG: My main problem with the current DD arc is that it started out with Daredevil single-handedly tipping over a limo filled with four people. Daredevil was never one to show off any kind of brute strength. Sure the guy is in good shape, but he ain’t super-human in the strength area. That said, I am enjoying Bendis’ run although he may have painted himself into a corner by revealing his secret identity.
CORM: Yeah, is he screwing up the character for follow-up writers? I can see him ending on a high note, but I can also see him dropping the ball and leaving the run as a noble failure. His endings tend to be hit-and-miss, so we’ll see.
BUZZ: The current state of DD comics? I don't read them. I like Bendis a lot but I just don't read monthly books. It sounds like Bendis is putting in more action, though, which is good, because no matter how anyone justifies it, if DAREDEVIL doesn't have action it's a cop out.
CORM: We gotta get you some new sources, Buzz, 'cause Bendis has turned DAREDEVIL into one big-ass gabfest, punctuated by a page or two of quick action maybe once an issue. I'm digging it, though. What can I say? He writes some of the most entertaining-for-its-own-sake dialogue in comics, and even though he damn well needs an editor to tell him when to tighten it up or get a cigar burn, he inevitably wins me over with the sheer number of memorable scenes he writes.
MODERATOR: What about Kevin Smith’s stint as writer on the title?
SUPES: Kevin Smith writes great dialog, but as always with Kevin Smith writing any super hero, they’re not really themselves. They’re Kevin Smith characters having Kevin Smith conversations, dressed up like super heroes.
JQ: That’s a valid criticism of many Kevin Smith super hero comics, but I don’t think it holds true with DD. For all of Smith’s straining to write a “landmark” run on the title, it’s a very well characterized piece.
SLEAZY: Since Smith came over to the majors, the only series that I actually liked was his run on DD.
CORM: But the incessant in-jokes to his movies were just painful for me to read. I credit Smith for having a solid take on the characterization of Daredevil and his compadres and for having the clout to get fans looking back at the character again...but nothing else.
LIZZY: (Chamber door opens) What are you tools talking about now?
BUG: Kevin Smith.
LIZZY: Is he releasing another CLERKS mini-series?
BUG: No, but I am the Man Without Fear.
LIZZY: (Chamber door slams shut)
BUZZ: Well, I may not follow DD’s current run, but all I really want to say regarding Daredevil is that he is a character who brings out the real comic book fan. Sure, we all have our cult favorites, but MOON KNIGHT and THE METAL MEN are too far under the radar. DD is the character who separates the average person who knows Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, the Hulk and maybe the X-Men from someone who is really into superhero comics. Kevin Smith was instantly legit among fanboys because it wasn't BATMAN he wanted to write, it was DAREDEVIL.
MODERATOR: Okay, so it's a mixed bag of opinions on the way DD has been handled today. So what about a time when you think Daredevil has been handled right? Any recommendations.
SUPES: I recommend DAREDEVIL #41 (a.k.a. The Twenty-Five Cent Issue). Why? First, because I've probably read all of the collections you guys are going to recommend. Second, #41 was intriguing enough to make me actually buy the issue that followed it, and it's the third single issue of Daredevil I've slapped money down for in my entire life. Only this time, I wasn't buying it because of hype (the Kevin Smith DD run), but because it was good. Though not a big Daredevil fan, I instantly dug it. And having not read anything leading up to #41, I didn't feel lost at all, just left wanting more. Promising stuff, with great art, characterization and dialogue. The only drawback is that it's very talky and not action-oriented.
VROOM: For some strange reason, when it comes to the top DD stories I think of the art first, the writing second. The one that sticks out in my mind the most is THE MAN WITHOUT FEAR. John Romita Jr's work in MAN WITHOUT FEAR is wonderful, especially in the moments with Matt running around on the rooftops of Hell's Kitchen. Of course, Frank Miller does a bang up job on the writing, but it's the two page splash of Matt and Stick that I think of first when I think of this book.
CORM: It goes without saying that Miller’s stuff is the definitive modern take on the character, as reprinted in DAREDEVIL VISIONARIES volumes two and three, but my favorite Miller collection is the Martin Scorcese-esque DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN. Best Daredevil story ever and one of the best superhero stories ever. On a more nostalgic level, the cancelled 80's comic, MARVEL FANFARE, had a heartwrenching Daredevil story in issue #7 where he tries to find a blind kid's lost seeing-eye dog. Oh my god, it will fucking tear your heart out. Right up there with "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man".
BUG: I suggest Ann Nocenti’s entire run on the DD series. I believe she wrote issues #248-290. Nocenti was the best thing to happen to Daredevil after Miller left the title. She introduced us to that she-bitch, Typhoid Mary, had DD face the Blob and Pyro in an Old West showdown, and even sent Daredevil to hell and back. Favorite issue of that run: Issue #267 entitled “Cremains”. The story centers around a young boy who is obsessed with nuclear war and hides out in a fallout shelter preparing for the worst. At the same time, he watches his hitman father, Bullet, slug it out with Daredevil. It is a heart wrenching story, told with sensitivity and style. The issue is filled with beautiful lines like: “All you need is one person to believe in you, and you shine.” This was a truly great overlooked run. As an added bonus, most of the issues are pencilled by John Romita Jr.
BUZZ: For essential DAREDEVIL reading, I recommend none other than ESSENTIAL DAREDEVIL VOL. 1. From DD's origin through issue # 25 or so, most of the stories were written by Stan Lee with a revolving door of gifted golden age pros or (then) newcomers like the great John Romita Sr. For me, Daredevil’s art was defined by Gene Colan, a moody, cinematic artist who was able to capture motion in panel better than any artist I've ever seen. You won't see Stick or Elektra or the Kingpin in this book and that's fine. That's another vision of Daredevil. Equally good, but not definitive by a damn! There is some fluctuation in what the concept of Daredevil actually is here, but overall, the stories and artwork hold up nicely!
VI: (Slams down phone) Got ‘em. Ten tickets for DAREDEVIL. Let’s go. Someone wake Lizzy.
LIZZY: But I don’t want to see DAREDEVIL.
VROOM: I’ve got liquor.
LIZZY: Let’s go.
SLEAZY: Sorry, Moderator. No ticket for you.
MODERATOR: But…but…
VROOM: Don’t forget to change Schlepy’s diaper. It’s quite full.
MODERATOR: But…
BUG: I am the Man Without Fear.
MODERATOR: You guys are @$$holes.
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I'm first!!!
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Comic Books/Graphic Novels/Superheroes, no more please.......It's time for the Gangs of AICN to meet at the 5 Points.....because I'm the Ward Heeler for The European Association of the Anti Comic Book League......so if any of you Cgi'ers, Daredevilers, or the Dead Geeks Society want a fight.........lets go!!!
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Vroom, man, the word is "empathetic," not "empathic." You just gave the man psychic powers.
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1980. Moon Knight. Micronauts. Couldn't get enough...
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Thank you. Now I get the subtext.
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Or a Dave Sim comic. I mean, I think the @$$holes are great, but I started dozing about a quarter of the way in. Sometimes less is more, guys. sk
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Stupid gurlfriend won't let me see it today(something about naked cooking). I'll be first in line tomorow for it, KNOWING Benifer will get the job done and shuting all the fanboy's pie holes. Damn playa haters ain't gonna ruin my DD.
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Not only are you a troll, you are a mind-buggeringly mundane troll. At least say something interesting if you want to pick fights. "I want someone to argue with me because I hate comic books" just ain't gonna cut it.
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They nail the big details - the characters, the context, the heart. They nail the small details - the comic geek moments, the "real world" grounding, the coolness of the powers, etc. I do wish they spent a little more time on the "middle" details, the stuff that would make it a good movie if it wasn't a DD movie (plot, plausability, etc) - the last 20 minutes are about as stupid as I've ever seen in an action movie. So my rating: The first 70 minutes:A-. The movie as a whole: B.
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Feb 14, 2003 11:31:24 AM CST
You know how Stan Lee was a hot-dog vendor in "X-Men"?
by rev_skarekroe
Well, I think he should have been a hot-dog vendor in every Marvel movie! So in "Spider-Man," instead of a grandfatherly guy, he should have been selling hot-dogs! And in "Daredevil"? Selling hot-dogs. Same with "Hulk". That way, you can slyly establish that all these super-heroes live in the same universe together without having to worry about the hassle of a bunch of studio lawyers! There, just had to get that off my chest. sk
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Thanks very much.....Troll (n.) Supernatural being in Scandinavian mythology and folklore (Collins English Dictionary).........now if I'm a supernatural being that means that I'm........on my god, could it be, yes.....I'm a
f%#@king "Superhero", now were is my rubber suit, the one with the nipples will do for today........and boy do I love winding you poor saps up!!!!!Ta Ta -
I'm not sure why I like it but I do...anyone want to start up a petition for Stan Lee to play a hot dog vendor in every Marvel movie?
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How so? Without spoilers is it that bad a climax...how can the films till be a B? My girl won't let me go either sod on't feel bad guys. This movie may have a huge next day first show.
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Didn't Stan play a sunglasses vendor in Spider-Man? He could still have a theme like that. Maybe in Hulk he can run a newspaper stand or something. I really do like the idea of some consistency between the films being implied through him. Clever idea. :)
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Without spoilers, hmm....well, if you've read the comic or seen an action movie, there's no real spoilers, but let's just say it's retarded. The climactic stuff that happens makes NO sense - this movie is pretty stupid when it comes to stuff like the legal aspect of DD, and it shows, and they have no idea what to do with The Kingpin (seriously, he has about 5 scenes, 4 1/2 are absolutely awful...how did somebody this stupid become the crime boss of New York.) Basically, the movie needed a quick rewrite regarding the framework, and it needed some balls when it comes to leaving a few plot threads dangling or some morals ambiguous when the credits hit. It's still a comic book fan's wet dream when it comes to...well, everything about the comic translation. It's too bad they didn't put all that love and attention into a movie with a plot that developed sensibly. *** But, keep in mind, there's nothing wrong with a rating of B. B is good. I'm happy with B.
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First of all, thanks to "Ruelz-Rock On" man for screwing up the Talkback frame.....Second, thanks to the League for the amazingly faithful reproduction of a conversation that might take place in a comic book shop. Myself, I can hardly wait to see this movie. I've never been a WHITE HOT fan of Daredevil, but have always been fond of the character more in concept than in execution. I feel the character finally clicked into place once Frank Miller reinvented the character in the early 80's...after nearly two decades of being not *quite* there as one of Marvel's more conventional, interchangeable heroes. I recall the years when DD and Black Widow would fight guys like Stilt-Man or even aliens and it never feeling quite right. Miller's "re-introduction" of the street level grit only *suggested* at in Daredevil #1 was just what the character needed. Others have veered the character off track since then, but overall Daredevil has remained true to Miller's reimagining. Hey Corm: Whenever I see clips from the movie, I swear that I see the Gene Colan Daredevil looking back at me. That's gotta be the visual model that Mark Steven Johnson used for Daredevil's visuals. Hey....speaking of Mark Steven Johnson, here's a link to a great article written by a local St. Paul newspaper on Mark Steven Johnson, who grew up in a Twin Cities suburb, and his "journey" to bring the Daredevil movie to life_____ http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/entertainment/5174151.htm____While you're at it, a Daredevil review pops up on the arch-conservative website "The Weekly Standard" written by an online editor who knows his comic books:____http://www.theweeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/241jjsfm.asp______Enjoy!
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on another set of brilliantly conceived posts that again defy the staid, conventional wisdom that one should have something of value to contribute before posting. Congratulations! You've actually made that Fett fellow seem clever by comparison.
I'm pleased to see so many (relatively) positive reviews for a film that seemed to try to tackle too many story points all at once. I'm also surprised to see so many who didn't appreciate Kevin Smith's stint on DD. I thought making himself the villain was endearingly humble of him. Yeah, he's verbose. So was Feldstein. Still emminently readable. My two cents. -
http://darkhorse.com/community/boards/topic.tpl?_messageID=406903538092365
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Feb 14, 2003 2:56:32 PM CST
Oh, Mistr Mind Screwed Up The Talkbacks. I Thought I Was Just S
by buzz maverik
...I think gang fights are a great idea! Let's see, who took the AR-15s? You guys gotta sign those out! Somebody pry open that big box marked Heckler & Koch. Remember, when you strap on those knives, have the blades pointing up! When they come out, they should be ready to use! Now, if you'll excuse me, my napalm is boiling over.
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the whole lawyer who fights crime is very tricky not to do right. Too bad theymessed it up. So if they messed up that and the kingpin and the plot why doesn't it sucklike Batman. It just sounds pretty bad the way you describe it. The Kingpin was a great villain (I like the way John Rhys Davies played him in the crappy Hulk film) so if he sucks and the end fight sucks and they screw up the law stuff how do you get the whole blind justice thing across which should be the point...I am confusa-ed. Thanx for the review anyways. Mastermind should be taken out back and shot in the head like George Lowe and Fett btw.
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Most of the criticisms I have are of very little consequence to the movie. Take the court stuff; there's only one courtroom scene, where a rapist gets acquitted and Murdock's the attorney for the victim...but there's no DA. Even an idiot should know that you need a prosecutor. But, ultimately, it's of very little consequence to the movie (other than it makes you think that either the filmmakers are morons or they think their audience is)*** Same with Kingpin - he's of very little consequence to the movie. It's really a Matt-Elektra-Bullseye show. *** And, while my criticisms may make it sound bad, I'm not really talking about what makes the movie work- it grabs you from the opening scene, Affleck is awesome, Foggy is really funny, the character of DD is translated faithfully (and translated well...for all the liberties they take with everybody else, DD is perfect. Absolutely perfect.)...and in some ways, they even improve (or expand) on the comic - pen and ink doesn't convey blindness the way film does, and the whole battlescars/painkillers thing is really jarring. One review I read say that this movie sucks and thrills on such equal levels that it's going to polarize the audience - and he's right. For me, despite the lows, the highs are high enough, and there are enough of them (especially for the first 70 minutes) that my thumbs are pointing up.
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I will give it a try saturday and see what it has to offer up...
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I'm cancelling my membership to AICN's lesser known group: Leauge of cornchip smelling weirdos. Excelsior!
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Totally packed. I thought it'd be safe, going so early, and then I could barely find a seat. It was pretty good for the most part. I really liked Favreau's stuff. I feel like we didn't get to know Elektra well enough to really feel her death, but it was okay. I was also a little annoyed by the alteration to Dd's origin; it took something away from the character. I had more problems with it than some of the other guys here--for example, DD essentially kills some guy early on and throws Bullseye from pretty far up, and then won't kack Kingpin even though he knows Pinny killed his old man. Just doesn't follow logically at all. That said, it's still a really good movie and well worth seeing. I almost shat myself in the scene where Matt wakes up in the hospital room after his accident. The new abilities Matt wakes up with are so overwhelming and that is communicated so well it just bowled me over. Oh, and my favorite thing in the whole movie appears in the credits, so it's not a spoiler: "Man With Pen In Head: Frank Miller". Classic.
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Some complaints, but not many. The action was a little off at the end. Also, Bullseye's shirt... you can see the area where he had a target in white that was blacked out. It's distracting as all hell, and it would have looked all kinds of cool if they'd left it. Still, the fight between Elektra and Bullseye is straight off the page. Plus, the trailers for X-Men 2 and the Hulk were super sweet. The CGI Hulk looks a lot better up on the screen than he does on a monitor. As for X2... this year the movies Marvel puts out may turn out to be better than most of their comics.
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Hey guys, I'm new to comics so I wanted to get your opinions on what you think are the better comics out there. I'll probably like the ones with good characters and dialogue over the ones that are all action. Not that action's bad. It's just not the end all be all. Anyway, any help would be sincerely appreciated.
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I tried, and some of it was funny, but who could read all that? I appreciate the effort I guess. I hope somebody mentioned that B.M. Bendis is writting the best DD stuff in a long, long time and maybe ever...............Anyway the movie, which I was MUCH afraid for, turns out to be okay. There are some weaknesses but it sure didn't suck and I enjoyed it. The chance to be better next time is absolutely available. Hell, the Washington Post liked it!
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I think you guys are missing the point in that, justice is not always found in the legal system. Matt can be a lawyer during the day and "try" to see that justice is served - at night, DD can make sure that it is. Also, Matt as a defense attorney does not neccessarily conflict with his role as DD because most of the folks he defended were innocent. Plus, the built-in lie detector came in pretty handy when they weren't. And if they weren't innocent - DD made sure they got caught in something that removed all doubt. Ahhh, the good old days.
As for the movie, way too many internal inconsistencies for me to like it that much. And yes, the last 20 minutes were pretty stupid. My grade - C. -
.........they should call it the Glaucoma Monologues. This stuff makes for terrible comics. C'mon, if I want that much dialogue; I'll watch Crossfire or something. Worst. Writer. Ever.
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On comics to try: "Daredevil" right now is fantastic, fun to read and well written and I strongly recommend it. "Alias" (not related to the show) is also very good if you don't mind F-bombs and an occasional sex scene. "Y - Last Man" is good stuff. To me, that is the current best of the best but there is a lot of good stuff around. A lot might depend on your taste. Welcome aboard the geek wagon.
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If possible, get a copy of PREVIEWS from a comic shop. A lot of shops give them away. It'll tell you about comics coming out 2 months into the future. It's a good way to find things that might be of interest to you. I recommend trying a lot of different books. You'll soon find your favorites.
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Feb 15, 2003 3:44:43 AM CST
So I went and saw that there DAREDEVIL picture show...(minor spo
by dave_f
My overwhelming reaction is one of disappointment, and my big three pantheon of superhero movies remains untouched. The terrifically comic-booky SPIDER-MAN clocks in at #3, the more emotionally involving X-MEN at #2, and at number one, the superhero movie that'll *never* be taken down: SUPERMAN. DAREDEVIL ranks somewhere down in the realm of BATMAN RETURNS and BLADE II, and I didn't think much of either of those flicks beyond some of their visual flair and occasional moments of inspiration or cool action. That might be a little harsh, but the fact that DAREDEVIL flirted with getting it right only makes its failure that much more painful. In short, I thought the direction was either too flat or too showy (gah, all those POV shots of flying weapons!), that two many stories were being shoehorned in, and that the movie never caught me in any sort of compelling emotional grip. Despite what JQ is saying, I didn't really have a good feel for Matt Murdock's character, or much empathy, and the sparks between he and Elektra ranged between cliched and outright ridiculous (that initial sparring). Granted, even the mighty Frank Miller painted his characters with pretty broad brushstrokes, but I think the X-MEN movie was a far better example of translating "comic booky" characters to more realistic big screen counterparts. Actively painful elements in DAREDEVIL: that initial misstep with DD in the subway (you know the one I mean), the monumentally shit-tastic alterna-rock score, Daredevil's goofily over-designed billy club (less is more, production crew assholes!), Daredevil's laughable sensory deprivation "coffin", the fact that the Kingpin had not been shown to be a physical threat in any way when Daredevil faced him, the overuse of CGI for Daredevil's leaping and climbing, and the suspension of disbelief-shattering comic creator name-dropping during the vital opening scenes of the film. What I liked: moments of Affleck's performance (sorry, but it was still *Affleck* I saw up there, not Matt Murdock), Colin Farrell's hammy but very watchable Bullseye, random action scenes, the fact that the movie didn't feel the need to kill its villains (yay for the trend X-MEN started!), and...uh...that's about it. Garner was merely passable, Kingpin was as misused as JQ admits, and I walked away feeling depressed about comics-to-film adaptations in the future. I still hold out hope for X-MEN 2, which had a pretty snazzy new trailer, and I actually think HULK has the potential to surprise everybody and be the best superhero movie of the year, but in general, DAREDEVIL reminded me that we're due some clunkers.
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I think I've only got two or three issues from Nocenti's run, and I remember the writing falling flat because DAREDEVIL felt shoehorned into her existential storylines, but I'd probably buy a trade to give her a second chance. To be honest, the Romita Jr. art is a major factor in that - I especially remember a cool rendition he did of Black Bolt, and his art on MAN WITHOUT FEAR is probably the best of his career. On the other hand, I didn't actually like that storyline much, either, probably because it felt like Miller was on autopilot. If memory serves, it was written "Marvel style", with Miller doing plot, Romita doing full pencils, and the script only being added *after* the thing was drawn. That worked for the fast-paced comics of Lee and Kirby or Lee and Ditko, but I think it's a little painful on what should be a more structured work.
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And I think I read it at almost the exact same age you did. I actually got it as a Christmas gift, and believe me, nothing says "Christmas" like a story in which longtime Daredevil shakedown victim, Turk, steals a Santa suit as part of a scam and stabs a broken Matt Murdock while wearing it. Jesus, that comic left me depressed, but *exhilarated* too. The scene where a borderline insane Matt Murdock violently assaults a couple of muggers on a subway was especially shocking (including Matt choking a cop into unconsciousness), as were the various murders carried out or attempted by that giant nurse-chick working for the Kingpin. The most mind-blowing scene, and still one of the most visceral scenes for me in all comicdom, is the shootout in the interrogation room that ends with Ben Urich bashing in that crook's head with an empty gun. Simply amazing staging there, and the same goes for that scene where Ben gets a call from the nurse, and has to listen to her choking a witness to death while about half a dozen stressed-out conversations overlap behind him as a five o'clock deadline hits the Daily Bugle. Miller loves the theme of redemption and has played with it over and over in his stories, but with BORN AGAIN he nailed it better then ever before or since, and that, above all else, is why I want to throttle Kevin Smith for murdering Karen Page...in his first goddamn attempt at comics no less! Sheeeit, that's as pathetic as killing off Newt and Hicks in the opening five minutes of ALIENS 3 - way to negate an infinitely superior prededing work! As if all the Kevin Smith in-jokes in his DAREDEVIL story weren't bad enough...
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You fuckers never tell me anything. Dibs on Treasurer.
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Newt NEEDED to be killed off, you know it as well as me.
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Feb 15, 2003 10:46:26 AM CST
Shazam and Kavalier & Clay...................................
by doc cock
Now you are all probably aware that I have no love of the yanks pre-occupation with comic books/superheroes, etc. But I have just read that Jude Law has signed up to play a character called "Kavalier" and before you all get wet knickers over Jude Law playing a leather clad superhero, the role is actually from a pulitzer prize winning novel called "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay" by Michael Chabon. Apparently it chronicles the lives of a Jewish artist and magician who along with his Brooklyn cousin create comic books. It is supposed to be unfilmable, but no doubt about it I would really look forward to seeing this film about "comic books", when it does eventually come out..................Anyway, back to my usual self, New Line have signed the rights to the DC Comics character Shazam (Billy Batson), does this ever stop, are their anymore comic book characters left that can be filmed, because if you start "diluting the stock the brew loses it's potency"
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As we would say in Scotland........"Gon' yersel wee man"
I knew someone out there in the ether liked me (sob, sniff!)....... -
Okay, I saw the film and I thought it was pretty damn good. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. Im not as critical as most on comic book films. To me, I am just glad that a property is given a chance to be on the screen. And if it's good. Bonus. As for Daredevil, the pros outweighed the cons for me. I loved the radar sense. I loved the scenes with Bullseye and Kingpin. I loved the fight scenes and even the fact that DD kills some poeple. This was a film about DD accepting responsibility and coming to terms with his own actions, so when he decides not to kill, it is a powerful statement about the character. The CGI was rough at times, but not enough to take me out of the film. It served its perpose at the times it was needed. John Favreau was hilarious. I want to see a FOGGY NELSON film, now. Joe Patalino was good, but I think Dennis Leary would have been better. And I never thought I would write these words, Ben Affleck did an amazing job. He was tortured. He was brutal. He was charismatic. Everything Matt Murdock shuld be. The scenes with him dealing with these accursed powers were some of the strongest in the film. Now the bad. Still don't like the Eggo on Colin Farrell's forehead. I wish they would have let him say "I want a fookin' costume." instead of "I want a bloody costume." The name dropping got a bit thick. John Romita was good. Miller, okay. But I don't think Bendis, Mack, or Quesada should have been mentioned. Especially when there were other creators who actually contributed something legendary to the character. Kingpin figures out his connection with Matt's father's death a bit quick. DD somehow knows Bullseye's name. And guys, trust me, if you see a woman in a coffee shop, don't follow her into a park and start a fight with her. This pick up maneuver will only get you a night in the slammer and some swollen testes. The DD/ELektra love story needed to be fleshed out. She's beautiful, yes. But there needed to be more for me for this story to have the impact it did in the comics. It told the story, but that's about it. And I agree, the fight at the end was a bit rushed and needed the same brutality and excitement from the bar fight scene. All in all, the movie is avery strong, very short, and does a great job of filling in to the rest of the world just what it is that makes all of us comic book fans love Daredevil. I will be seeing it again.
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Good job, BadAss. I agree with most of your choices - though, depending on how we're ranking them, I might put Rocketeer higher, as that movie is just about perfect (for what it tries to be). Me, because most of these movies are disappointing in some way, I'm interested in top 5 film superheroes who've done justice to their origins. 5)Alec Baldwin - The Shadow. Underrated movie, highlighted by Baldwin's dark, winky performance. 4) Tobey Maguire - Spider-Man. Nails the heart of the character, but too bland (And banal) at times to rank higher. 3) Ben Affleck - Daredevil. Maybe it helped that his eyes were obscured, but he's probably the biggest name to ever play a superhero on screen...and he completely melted into the part. 2) Hugh Jackman - Wolverine. The hardest to translate, but wow. Everything's right and everything's perfect. Too bad nobody will ever knock off...1)Chris Reeve. Well, d'uh.
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Feb 15, 2003 2:37:14 PM CST
Wow, "The Adventures of Kavalier & Clay" isn't a comicbook, but
by qwerty uiop
Wow, thats.... thats REALLY OLD news. Thanks for the time warp, fucko.
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Here in the UK it is news......so,take your steaming pile of comicbook shite and burn the fucking lot of it..............
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So, what you're telling me is that your news sites "over there" are on par with your dentistry, right?
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Your darn right qwertyuiop our news is a bit behind, also we only have five (non-satelite) TV channels, our trains don't run on time, and some of us live in houses smaller than some American cars.....but you know what we fucking love it.......and as Bob Hoskins said in "The Long Good Friday".....'we (as in Britain) have given more to the world than the fucking hotdog'.............his words not mine!
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Saw the film last night with a crowd that really seemed to enjoy it. Most of what was in it was good, but at times it felt like a few additioanl scenes to develop characters whould have helped. Will there be a "special edition" DVD someday? When Matt stays with Elektra instead of going off to fight crime I heard a 12-year old kid gasp and say "He's so selfish!" to his mom. It brought a smile to my face - you didn't see Spider-man going for the girl instead of crime fighting. I guess that highlights a differnce between the two characters. Spidey feels guilt over Uncle Ben and never feels worthy of enjoying himself. DD is out for justice, and it's only fair for him to enjoy himself once in a while. I also liked his more vicious, "devilish" side in the subway scene. Some of the recent comics really highlight this aspect. When in costume he is always yelling or gritting his teeth in rage, but as Murdock he's usually calm or smiling. Perhaps it'soverly simplistic, but its effective.
BadUnkleFucka - The 80's Shadow series - wasn't that by Chakin? That version of Cranston was a real bastard. the movie was a nice set up for a possible franchise that never happened. Oh well. I remember an interview with Jonathan Winters at that time where he said he was originally up for the Shadow part. It would have been a completely different Shadow . . . A huge Cumulonimbus Shadow. -
Colon was doing DD when I first began reading the book and will always have a warm place in my heart.These issues may not be what most readers consider to be the definitive DD,but they do hold up well.Gene captures the fluidity of Daredevil like no other artist(sorry Frank).It was a simpler time for DD,with a lot less bagage.I think I'll go dig some of them out right now.'Nuff said.
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We (as in Americans) don't give a shit.
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Feb 17, 2003 12:38:34 AM CST
Buzz Maverik's DAREDEVIL REVIEW: As always in comic book movies,
by buzz maverik
...talking up a storm while popping and crackling. The rest of the Emissaries of Evil were a mixed bag. Andy Garcia exuded his usual lack of energy as the Matador and I kept imagining the zeal that Banderas could have brought to the part. Likewise, Jesse "The Governor" Ventura was about two decades too old to really pull of the Gladiator. Jesse in 1983 would have nailed the part. Jim Belushi made the perfect, deadpan Leap Frog, playing him as a guy who is somewhat embarrassed that his supervillain identity requires him to dress like a frog. Aside from Leary, D.J. Qualls was the best evil doer...I had my reservations, but from now on he IS Stilt Man in my book. As for the love interest, when they hired that girl from the hit action T.V. show, I scoffed but Elisa Cuthbert made a wonderful Karen Page. She seemed like she was really worried about Matt being blind and all, and I believed her conflict between dashing, rugged Daredevil and Foggy who was the only guy to actually ask her out. They were wise to sign Cuthbert for the sequel, tentatively titled DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN DEVIL. The major flaw in director John Mark Stephenson's screenplay seemed to be the character of Mike Murdock, who was actually Matt impersonating a non-existent twin brother in order to fool Karen and Foggy into thinking he wasn't Daredevil. Also, you could tell that Damon clearly considered the role beneath him. Over and over, I spotted him mouthing the words, "Paycheck, paycheck, paycheck."
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I can understand your whole "comic fans take themselves too seriously and we should have fun with it" attitude. I think that generally speaking, its a good attitude to have. But seriously man and this is straight out being honest with you, you ARE NOT funny. I'm sorry, but its true. You're not. At all. Please, please, let the dream die, man.
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it's colan. gene colan.
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Feb 18, 2003 1:35:54 AM CST
Hoof Hearted, I Admit That My Silly Attempts At Humor Could Neve
by buzz maverik
...if we saw you naked but a man has to know his limitations.
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