Cool News
Mr Beaks does the dance with THE TWO TOWERS
Hey folks, Harry here... Currently I'm overwhelmed by my reaction to TWO TOWERS - there's so much I want to say that I don't really have a clear starting point. My review will be a bit late, but that's because I just want to watch it again, because any and all critical faculties left my body upon watching the film. All I'm left with is to see this again... For now, I give you Mr Beaks' look...
THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE TWO TOWERS (d. Peter Jackson, w. Jackson, Fran Walsh & Philippa Boyens)
It’s a transcendent moment in a film filled with them: Gollum, the twisted, erstwhile owner of the Ring, is at battle with himself. The last clinging vestiges of decency and sanity within this disturbed being are revolting against the dark-hearted creature he has become over too many years of tortured existence; the upheaval fomented by the compassion of Frodo Baggins, the current ring bearer who has recognized somewhere deep with Gollum a kindred spirit worth saving. That spirit is named Smeagol, and for the first time in hundreds of years he has been empowered to claim dominion of his now-decrepit body. Finally, after an anguished internal combat rendered with unbelievable emotional texture through the work of actor Andy Serkis and the geniuses at WETA, the rightful owner wins out. Gollum is banished; Smeagol is free.
So is Peter Jackson. Unburdened at last of the oft-crushing exposition of his otherwise wonderful FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, this brilliantly brazen bastard juggles multiple plot threads with astonishing ease while crafting a three-hour thrill ride that builds inexorably toward the much-anticipated battle of Helms Deep. Though the first installment was no slouch, THE TWO TOWERS is outfitted with some blessedly souped-up pacing. As Jackson plunges us back into Tolkien’s expansively fantastical universe via a dream sequence that recalls one of FELLOWSHIP’s most harrowing moments – while taking it one thrilling step further – the director is clearly announcing that the set-up is over. It’s time this tale got cookin’.
Which, narratively speaking, is easier said than executed, especially considering that Jackson and his co-writers, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens, must manage four separate story arcs throughout the first leg of the film: the three splintered factions of the Fellowship and the drama unfolding in the mountainous region of Rohan, where its King Theoden (Bernard Hill) has fallen under a spell cast by Saruman (fantasy franchise MVP, Christopher Lee), who is aided in his treachery by the evil Wormtongue (the ever eccentric Brad Dourif). Though two of these threads are united once Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli arrive at Rohan to free Theoden from Saruman’s grasp, one still has to marvel at how effortlessly Jackson and his collaborators balance these, for now, divergent arcs, all of which sport wildly different dynamics.
The wisest decision made by Jackson in the first half of this picture is the way in which he almost instantly drops Gollum into the story. And, really, believe the pre-release hype: he’s the absolute star of this film. Pathetic, pitiable, and unbearably tragic, Gollum is a maniacally covetous monster whose pernicious intent is often masked by his painfully expressive eyes, which makes it easy for us to understand why Frodo, over Sam’s persistent protestations, fairly unquestionably takes him on as their guide to Mordor. And though he’s mostly trouble for the Hobbits, he’s wonderful company for the audience, earning almost immediate sympathy which pays off beautifully in his showstopping, schizophrenic soliloquy.
Gollum’s value to the story is even clearer in retrospect when one realizes how his entertaining screentime is used to offset the gradually building arc of Aragorn, who essentially serves as this installment’s protagonist. Upon reaching Rohan, and seeing the dire straits into which his fellow men and women have fallen, his transition from ranger to king begins to take on a real narrative heft, but there’s still some setting-up that needs tending to before it becomes engrossing enough to be the film’s focal point. The hand-off finally occurs as the citizens of Rohan flee the approaching army of Orcs. Here Jackson begins to more fully explore Aragorn’s sense of responsibility to his people, as well as the consequences of his bond with Arwen, which is further complicated as he warms to Eowyn (Miranda Otto), the tough but lovely daughter of Theoden. It’s after his moment of death and resurrection following the Warg battle that Aragorn emerges as a hero and leader to his people. Backed into a dark corner at Helms Deep, Aragorn becomes their sole flickering light of hope, but even though he’s newly emboldened to lead them into battle, his doubt and fear is quite palpable. And because he senses a grim end to their looming battle, our hope is diminished as well.
Tricky as these elements might be, they’re nothing compared to the challenge posed by the Ents. Long feared as the most potentially hokey characters in the transition from novel to film, the Ents – sentient trees known for walking and talking *very* slowly – are integrated seamlessly into the film, though they end up being represented almost solely by Treebeard, who rescues Merry and Pippin from a ravenous Orc. Visually, the sight of the Hobbits astride the moving Treebeard is probably WETA’s shakiest work on the film, but the John Rhys-Davies voicing of the character, along with the performances of Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan, put it over almost effortlessly. This is terribly important, because it’s the Ents plight that comprises the film’s most potent, practically central metaphor – Industry versus Nature – and it’s carried off intelligently and affectingly. The Ents dilemma is, at first, one of intervention, but when they realize Saruman’s path of destruction brutally extends into their world, claiming many of their fellow beings, they realize the cost of inaction. By driving this theme home, Jackson is tending to one of Tolkien’s most fervent concerns. One imagines that, despite the author’s likely misgivings over Jackson’s story alterations, he’d have been proud of this thematic fidelity.
That said, he almost certainly would’ve been knocked on his scholarly ass by the battle of Helms Deep. Shot mostly at night over the course of several months, Jackson’s staging of this massive battle has been compared to the best work of Kurosawa, and it is absolutely in their league. From the tragic pressing of young men into battle, to the false start caused by the arrival of the elves, to the accidental first shot, and on through to the unending flood of Orcs that slowly pummel their way into the stronghold, it’s a magnificent sequence of astounding physical scale and seamlessly applied CGI. There’s so much to take in that multiple viewings are an absolute must, if only to watch the whirling dervish that is Gimli, who literally throws himself into combat with a hearty zeal that strikes one as hysterically compensatory for his diminutive stature. Dropping Gimli into a throng of foes achieves the same effect as lobbing a grenade. He’s unstoppable.
Unfortunately, the film is not. Eventually, it draws to an agonizingly unresolved conclusion that will send many rabid viewers overseas to New Zealand in search of a rough assemblage of RETURN OF THE KING, but there’s so much to pick over in this far superior second installment that the wait seems far less torturous than last year’s. At the end of FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, one felt things were just getting started; however, at the end of THE TWO TOWERS, there’s more than a tinge of melancholy as one senses the nearing of the end. I’ll happily prolong that eventuality for as long as I can.
Faithfully submitted,
Mr. Beaks
-
+ Expand All
-
TTT kicked ass.
-
In the same way that Gollum both loves and hates the ring I both loved and hated the movie.
Need to see it again to watch it as a film and not an adaptation. -
I absolutely loved this movie. already wrote my review and submitted it to theonering.net's fan review section. If anyone cares to read it, the keyword is 'tanhauser'
-
even at near 3 hours TTT feels a bit like a "best of" reel, because SO many important events occur in such a short span, but then again, what would work? a ten hour version? probably. but i certainly can't complain about what we did get. here's to ROTK!
-
I have yet to see the film (opens boxing day in Oz) and I expect it to be awesome, but my question is......would you post a serious negative review for this film? I really think you are just too obsessed with it being the best thing ever.
-
Dec 19, 2002 3:09:04 AM CST
C'mon Harry, get your big butt in gear and give us your thoughts
by monkeybrains
I have to disagree with Mr, Beaks. I thought that the pacing was some what slow, especially with Aragon and all his flashbacks/dreams/whatever. But thats just a minor quibble. This is a very good film, Is it EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, or GODFATHER II? NO. But a very very very good movie that I plan on seeing a few more time in the theater. Gollum was just fantastic. I just wish that there had been a more clearer ending to the Helms Deep battle instead of the Charge of the Light Brigade. Again, just a minor quibble. Can't wait till next year, and then in 2004 to watch the extended cuts of all the films on DVD. What, that will be like a 10 1/2 hour movie!!!!
-
Tolkiens story was about plain folk, who lived in the Shire who got caught up in the evil of war. Being a veteran himself, he recognised the comraderie of the fighting men, but hated wars effect._____________________He would have been mortified by the "hollywoodization" of his tale. In fact, his kids have already politely rebuffed Jacksons attempt by saying "Its a nice movie, but it doesn't captured our fathers efforts." Tolkein himself believed that no movie could ever do his work justice..and he hwas right.__________________________________but on the otherhand, it had some pretty cool action on that thar screen.
-
Those were the words thrown around last time Mr.Beaks reviewed a film in these parts - so no Harry's comment on his work this time, huh?
-
ok, i'm pretty sure quite a few people loved this movie, but i thought it was utter crap. i can understand peter jackson leaving out some stuff in fellowship because it might have slowed the story down a bit, but what he did in towers is unforgivable. first off, what are elves doing at helms deep? this is crap. when they showed up, i couldn't help but wonder if tolkien was turning over in his grave. second, we've got frodo, sam, and gollum is osgiliath. tell me if i'm wrong here, but i remember faramir letting them go on their way. this was just a lame attempt to make the frodo story a bit more exciting. next we've got aragorn supposedly dying in a short battle that's not even supposed to be taking place. i seriously have no idea what peter jackson was thinking of when he added this. all he's accomplished is making true fans of the books dislike this movie. also, what's with the ents not deciding to fight at first? this was just a poor decision. why not just have them decide to fight from the on set. the only reason i can think of is to show that pippin has a little backbone. another thing that really bugged the hell out of me is how orthanc isengard was flooded. who the hell dams up a river and builds a tower in a flood basin? that just seems utterly stupid, and for some reason i just can't believe any type of leader (even george dubya) would do something this idiotic. now these are my really only major qualms with this movie. granted, there were many more things i dislike, but i'm too baffled to think of what they might be now. however, some stuff from towers was used that was introduced in fellowship, but never explained. the tower errors being the lembas and elven cloaks, which, if you have seen the extended dvd edition you know they were explained. i don't know why peter jackson didn't leave this in fellowship, along with the giving of the gifts. it just seems crucial to explaining some of the story. shelob, not shown, but mentioned. i'm assuming this will be in return. i just didn't care how this movie ended. actually, i was just relieved when it ended, i wanted to ask for my money back. i might, and i stress might, consider watching towers again before i see return, but i doubt i'll ever want to see it again.
-
--along with the IMAX AOTC. Gonna be sweet. Now you LOTR and SW fans play nice together or I'll turn this car around this instant, I swear I will! Toppu o Nerae.
-
You should check out the Two Towers review roundup on http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/TheLordoftheRingsTheTwoTowers-1118285/?beg=55&int=35&page=1
It lists 107 different reviews, and of them only 2 are negative!
-
I knew going into 2 Towers that Gollum was going to be a star, but what I can't get over is just how good the use of Gimli was...I'm still laughing just thinking about his lines...
"just don't tell the elf" -
I cant see TT for another week yet, stuck in Oz. Being that Ive looked forward to this film intensely and loved Fellowship...Ive had to break downthe negative reviews of TT with a simple formulae.
If they start the review with I hated the Fellowship, they get safely ignored. If they hate TT because it doesnt stick with thebook 100%, once again safely ignored.
What I am worried about is reports of too comic relief and dumbing down of Gimli. Also the Warg attack and Faramir are coming under a slag-off for being weak. The Warg attack preview I saw on TV looked crappy, so I am a bit worried. Bloody hell, 1 week to go...
-
Was anyone else reminded of Magnolia? The way there was a moment when you would be absolutely infuriated as they left one thread for the next, but then you would remember how much you were in love with that second thread, and it would be OK again. And Gollum was as near photo-realistic as makes no difference - it was awesome. Even the liberties with the plot were for the most part spot on. Waow. In the immortal words of Marlene Dietrich "falling in love again....dah de dah something I forget". Can't believe I have to wait a whole further year for more.
-
I saw the movie on Tuesday at midnight and it was a blast. I saw it again the next day at 10:00 and it felt like somebody sucked the life out of the audience compared to the previous night. I know EXACTLY why Harry didnt want to see an critics screening, and wait to see it with friends. On Tuesday people were clapping and cheering at every one of the great momments; the first reveal of Gandalf, Legolas jumping on the horse and riding the sheild, they were roaring with laughter at Gimli's exploits and Gollums funny moments like singing at the Forbidden Pool, and the great delivery of "Stupid fat Hobbit!". And responded greatly to Helms Deep - and the absolutely stunning return of Gandalf at the break of dawn. Its was a great fucking crowd! It was almost as energetic as when I saw Braindead at a midnight showing a few years ago ( which was probably one of the best movie going experiences ive had - it was roudy as hell, after the lawn mower scene a guy in the middle of the theater gets up and yells at the top of his lungs "BEST MOVIE EVER!!!" and the crowd went NUTS!). The wednesday night showing of TTT was quite different. Despite having waiting in line for more than an hour just like the night before, the mood was very restrained. There was little laughter and few applause. The difference in reactions was pretty jarring. I found that very odd indeed, root and twig very odd! Did anybody experience anything similer?
-
I saw this movie twice in 12 hours. The first time I saw it I was very disappointed. The ending was lame and too much of the story was changed. I can accept some parts being changed, like in FOTR, but this movie ended soooo bad. Where Shelbob and why is Sauraman defeated? Theres already so much stuff to put in ROTK why add stuff from this movie? Gollum was the best part while the rest was..... The score was nowhere near as good as the first(with the exception of the Rohan theme) and when the movie finally got to the last battle, I was too bored to get back into the movie. I'm not saying the entire movie was crap, but when compared to FOTR this movie doesn't hold a candle. The Two Towers was my favorite book of the series, its too bad it won't be my favorite movie.
-
I saw this movie twice in 12 hours. The first time I saw it I was very disappointed. The ending was lame and too much of the story was changed. I can accept some parts being changed, like in FOTR, but this movie ended soooo bad. Where is Shelbob and why isn't Sauraman humiliated? Theres already so much stuff to put in ROTK why add stuff from this movie? Gollum was the best part while the rest was.....meh. The score was nowhere near as good as the first(with the exception of the Rohan theme) and when the movie finally got to the last battle, I was too bored to get back into the movie. I'm not saying the entire movie was crap, but when compared to FOTR this movie doesn't hold a candle. The Two Towers was my favorite book of the series, its too bad it won't be my favorite movie.
-
After the snoozefest that was the Fellowship of the Ring is anyone else out there mildly (or rabidly) indifferent to TTT?
I so want to be part of the excitement, I really do- I love the idea of it- I'm a sucker for fantasy novels- I love the artistry of the boxed DVD set. I like the scale and the grandeur of the films- the scenery looks incomparable. I just have this niggling doubt that deep down these films aren't really as good as everyone is making them out to be. Am I alone in this?
-
How can you be negative? Here's the thing about the bits they left out of this one - the last battle finishes halfway through the third book, and then there is a very thorough round-up of events - I hope that isn't too big a spoiler for anyone. But that wouldn't work on film, so they have to import some stuff into the third book. And for my money the only unsatisfying thing about TTT was the fact that the end credits were not immiediately followed by RotK. And just to nitpick for a moment, Eowyn is Theoden's neice, not his daughter. Otherwise, good review Beaks.
-
You're not the only one. These movies are incredibly dull and ininspired, not to mention horribly overrated. I swear it's a conspiracy.
-
Thats fine, if you don't like it, but don't the Ents flood Orthanc in the book? And why did you think adding Elves to Helm's Deep was such a god awful insult to Tolkien? Just wondering.
-
Dec 19, 2002 5:07:49 AM CST
Two Towers moans -spoilers if you haven't seen the film
by commander vimes
Don't get me wrong I loved the first film as it was true to the book for the most part. The second installment I feel fell down in quite a few places.
I must say I felt a bit like Stevie Wonder shaking my head all over the place in a few places ;)
As a film, it worked if you hadn't read the books, 9 times.
And I'm not talking about small picky little things either. Whats the deal with Faramir being corrupted by the ring... that just p*ssed me off no end. He overcame that in the hidden refuge Heneth Anun. Thats where you see his true spirit coming forth and is more wise and less ambitious than his now dead brother.
Whatabout the Elves deciding that lets help out at Helm's Deep, its a long sea journey so lets make the most of the time we have here... Haldir getting killed ( I certainly don't remember that).
What about Frodo standing on the walls of Osgiliath showing the Ring to the Wraith?
I loved the Ents, the Fell Beasts. Gollum / Smeagol was excellent. I felt Mirando Otto was very well cast and it showed..its not a chick flick and it shouldn't be, she came out of it with a far better female role than Arwen.
I will be extremely p*ssed off if they alter the script to get Arwen following the Grey Company through the Paths of the Dead instead of Eowyn...
Oh well...I'll only be watching this once more to see if my attitude changes but I've got a feeling it won't
Anyway for die hard Tolkien Fans, see it but you will be disappointed.
FInally I feel better after having this rant....
-
Dec 19, 2002 5:17:41 AM CST
Actually, I thought the pacing in "Fellowship" was tighter
by st.buggering
There's a long, actionless haul here getting to Helm's Deep, which, no doubt, was worth the wait. But I think that this one is more likely to test the patience of those who are not already fans. And personally, I found Gimli's reduction to comic relief almost Jar-Jar-like in its insulting silliness (before you get all pissy...I said ALMOST). I wanted to like Gimli, and I thought he was reduced to a buffoon during the worg battle. And finally, what was with separating Aragorn from the party just so he could have a flashback and then return? Couldn't he have had a flashback at Helm's Deep? This just seemed to burn up screen time. In the final balance, I enjoyed it, but it doesn't measure up to Fellowship by any stretch. One final negative note, though: shield surfing. Oy.
-
I can't believe I'm writing these words. I loved FOTR, despite its (few) flaws - I've seen it dozens of times in the theatre and on DVD and it has many superb qualities. But now I am forced to conclude that FOTR was a lucky accident. Because TTT is, in one, dreadful, regretful word: shit. It's an unfocused, incoheret mess. It's in the same league as TPM and AOTC - and I don't use that comparison readily. My worst fears for this movie came true: Jackson has tried to juggle about ten balls at once - and has dropped ALL of them. I sincerely believe that, like George Lucas, he has lost all notion of how to make a film and the success of FOTR has freed him from whatever constraining influence the studio or his collaborators had on him. I don't know where to start with describing how this movie fails so badly. Well, let's start with the word 'movie'. This is NOT a movie, but a collection of random, weak, meandering scenes which have absolutely no connection with each other. Jackson has abandoned any attempt to hold together a coherent narrative and has settled for making a blind stab at creating some sort of visual accompaniment to the book - but this 'movie' absolutely cannot stand on its own feet. The cutting between the different scenes which accelerates towards the end of the movie is a misjudgement of monumental proportions. I will go into this more at a later date, when I've had time to think about this, but here's some general, random impressions: There can no longer be any doubt: Jackson cannot do action scenes. The Helm's Deep seige is unbelievably mediocre - a massive anticlimax. There is absolutely no pacing or rythm or coherence to this 'battle' which is edited so strangely that I challenge ANYONE to have the slightest idea of what is actually taking place. The constant cutting between pointless scenes is excessively tedious which is something I never thought I would say about LOTR. In fact, the word 'pointless' is one that crops to mind when I think of most of these scenes. They are dead weight, they drag the plodding narrative down and just add up to nothing.... Question: why are the orcs all a bunch of 'china plates' from South London? I can see them being in a mockney Guy Ritchie film, but they're completely out of place here, me old mucker. Question: Why on earth does Faramir suddenly decide to let Frodo go??? After 'overhearing' an impassioned speech from Sam about there being good in the world? Surely not. No way could Jackson come up with such a bargain-basement motivation("Mom, the biggest problem in the universe is that people don't help each other...") Surely not....Question: What on earth is the purpose of Aragorn 'dying' and being brought back to life? Anyone? That was Gandalf's gig. It serves absolutely no purpose.....Frodo Vs winged nazgul: hello? Now Sauron knows who has the ring and where it is. Goodbye element of surprise: now all Sauron has to do is take it instead of wasting his time building armies and conquering the world. End of story - no need for Return Of The King. A bold revisionist move from Jackson, designed perhaps to save the cost of making a third movie after this one SINKS LIKE A STONE.... Return of the Balrog: Oh Jesus, Gandalf stabs him in the heart and that's it. A far cry from the amazing metaphysical/symbolic/abstract confrontation in the book. After all, why do something brilliant when you can get by with something mediocre? The Eye Of Sauron: Yes this wonderful symbol/metaphor from the book and 1st movie is now.....an ACTUAL GIANT 3-D EYE floating on top of Barad-dur like a gas-filled weather baloon. Oh, and it's got those electrical lightning bolts running through it that Jackson promised he would NEVER use as it is so crap. You're right, PJ - it IS crap. Thanks for showing us how much. And I could go on and on and on...but there are two things I will say to put into perspective how I feel about this movie: Firstly, that when the closing credits appeared, I fully expected to see the words: "Directed By George Lucas". And secondly: I have no desire to ever see this movie again. Or Return Of The King. I'll be sticking to my FOTR DVD -the THEATRICAL cut, thank you very much.
-
I saw TTT last night and all in all I loved it, and though I have some gripes I distinctly remember having quite a few more problems with FotR and loving it more after each viewing, until it has become one of my favourite movies, so I expect the same from this one. While the first movie was basically about characterdevelopment, the second is more action oriented and I have no problem with this, though at times I missed the more subtle psychological conflicts within the characters as well as the sense of wonder I still have from the first one, for example the pure cinematic beauty and magic of Lothlorien.
Ah yes, the deviations from the book. Well, some I could understand, some I couldn -
Being a critic who takes himself very seriously, I can't help but pay attention and be passionate about other critics' opinions. It is not just movies that I love, but Movie REVIEWING as well. Essentially, you have to pick what reviewer(s) works best for you and go with them. Believe me, just because they are an official "critic" doesn't mean a whole lot. Yes, it means they have seen TONS OF MOVIES. And it also means that they do indeed have some knowledge (usually) of the filmmaking process and of the individual components that make up a finished picture. But look at Ebert. The man is quite possibly the most famous film critic on the face of the planet, and he's a complete idiot. He wasn't always, but he is now. I mean, look at the evidence. He has thumbs-upped all of the following cinematic atrocities this year: Colatteral Damage, Undisputed, K-19: The Widowmaker, Femme Fatale, XXX, and Storytelling. He even gave Harry Potter 2 an A+!!! I mean, Harry 2 was fun and charming, but it was practically identical to the original. There was hardly anything new. The first thirty minutes were terribly-edited blatant exposition. An A+?!? Well... the point is, Ebert is an idiot. Did I mention he also thumbs-upped Blade 2 and Die Another Day? And look at his Two Towers review. The beauty of this film is that Jackson DID NOT transform it into a modern action picture. He did with Fellowship, but not Two Towers. For a three-hour epic, there is really very few action sequences. This is a movie about the characters. About their hope and their love and their triumphs and failures. Jackson did not construct an action vehicle for which a great big battle like Helm's Deep could be staged. He created human drama that makes that finale so much more powerful. So yes, Roger Ebert is an idiot. Then you have Owen Gleiberman. Man... this guy's weird. Most of the time, I don't like him. But sometimes, he just hits it on the nose. He is the one major critic I know that agrees with my on the shittiness of the Coens' "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" And he gave "Femme Fatale" an F. And he named "Far From Heaven" as the best film of the year (it is currently no. 1 on my list, too). But then he goes and gives Die Another Day an A- and describes Lee Tamahori as "a true filmmaker." He also put Soderbergh's flat, weak remake of "Ocean's Eleven" at no. 2 on his Top Ten Best list of 2001. So his comments about Two Towers don't really surprise me. He is less of an idiot than Ebert, but he still fucks up about 70% of the time. I'm not sure what Travers has said about this film, but I'm always happy to throw an insult his way. Peter's problem is that he likes practically every movie that gets released. You can't trust the guy because he seems to have hardly a critical bone in his body. I mean, seriously, he claimed that "A Knight's Tale" was one of the coolest movies of summer 2001. Riiight. What a knob. So who do I trust? My favourite movie reviewer out there today is Lisa Schwarzbaum, who makes up the female half of EW's reviewing team (Gleiberman is the male half). We have our disagreements, but she is continually insightful and intelligently analytical (as well as critical) with her reviews. And what did she say about "The Two Towers?" It sits firmly at no. 3 on her Top Ten Best list of 2002. Of the film, she has this to say: "So focused is Jackson's vision and so forceful his storytelling momentum that the yearlong hiatus is instantly bridged by the even grander grandeur of the spectacle."
-
Well I've just woken up from seeing TTT last night. My mind is still awash with thoughts and imagery from this film. As Harry says, I reckon I'll need to see this film again to be able to fully digest what I've just seen. It
-
I have a reputation for being a purist - fine. Aragorn "dying" was dumb, but it doesn't impact on the story too much. Expanding female roles - don't like it, but understand it, so lets move on. Did we really need to corrupt Faramir to prove how evil the Ring is? Ah well. But Sauron knows where the ring is. He knows how close it is to his boundary. Lets examine this. He now knows that one of the Council aren't trying to use it against him. That was Gandalfs big defense at the Council in the book. Also, when Aragorn uses the Palantir, it was to show himself to Sauron as Isildur's heir and so Sauron was to assume Aragorn would use the Ring. No need for that now. Why would Sauron bother sending his army to Gondor? Why not just patrol around Osgiliath looking for the Ring? Now, I'm sure all the Gushers will say how the Witch King almost sensed the Ring, but that is actually quite different. The Witch King did not know the Ring was there, he sensed something. The Nazgul can "sense" the Ring, but not very well. Sauron knows where the ring is and for no reason other than a stupid action sequence. I'm glad all you gushers will love it, is such a departure worth it just to have a version of the books?
-
I've no problem with the Ents flooding Isengard.
The fact that it wasn't in the book is a liberty I'm happy with.
It is in the book it should be either be shown or cut out.
The first film worked for me as the changes were only minor and it still showed a lot of truth. The second installment changed I mean CHANGED the story, not altered it. That just depresses me a bit.
As Ralph Bakshi said, if you keep true to the book then it will be a success. That should have been adhered to for this film. The point of the Elves leaving Middle Earth, signified Men standing alone for face the perils, it was a time for redemption and great deeds and sorrows.
Look it was a great epic if you hadn't seen read the books a few times. I'm just upset he fell short of the mark the first one set.
-
Saw it last night and although I enjoyed it, it was not as good as FOTR (I saw that 8 times at the cinema). All the reviews I had read on this site said it was way better than the first film (which I love), but I have to disagree. Even the battle at Helms Deep didn't live up to the hype - yes, it was the best part of the film, but still not as good as I'd imagined it to be. When the defenders ride out at dawn down the narrow bridge they somehow manage to knock about 100 Uruk-hai (spelling?) off with half a dozen leading horses. Until the battle the film seemed to drag - not a lot really happens - I kept looking at my watch to see how much time had passed (and I don't remember doing that when I first saw FOTR). I can't really put my finger on exactly why this doesn't match up to the first film - I'd give this 8 out of 10, whereas FOTR got the full 10 from me. Thanks for reading these meanderings.
-
the only people who didn't like TTT are the ones that don't understand that it is just 1/3 of one long ass movie, and whiney Tolkien-purists who don't understand film-making.
-
Eowyn is Theoden's Niece actually.
-
As a film fan, I loved it. As a bit of a sad Tolkienite, I have a couple of pretty serious qualms:
1) Faramir (Tolkien's favourite character) is ruined in the film. In the book, he is the anti-Boromir, a pupil of Gandalf and a wise, sensitive warrior who understands instantly the corruptive power of the ring. He is not some sub-Boromir, who lets Frodo go just because he has a bit of a scare with a Nazgul. I hope his character is better represented in RotK.
2) The amount of material left out in TTT for RotK makes me think that the whole Scouring of the Shire at the end of the Book is not going to make it into the film, even though the destruction of the Shire is one of the most crucial parts of the book, showing the hobbits that evil doesn't just exist in huge entities like Sauron, but also in small petty acts of malevolence. There hasn't been any foreshadowing (Sam doesn't see the Shire in Galadriel's mirror, doesn't get the magic soil from her which will rejuvenate the Shire), so I guess it won't happen. Makes you wish that some of the more pointless episodes in TTT (Warg attack, Arwen flashbacks for example) had been jettisoned. -
Interesting analysis. But I was curious, specificaly, what did you think about Gollum in the TTT? (e.g. His integration into the story, the visual presentation, did you find he was appropriate / inappropriately comical, dramatic, during the wrong times, etc.)
-
I'm an EXTREME fan of the books. I'm 36 and have read them each and every year (at least once) since I was ten. I have loved both movies. I did not dislike the Two Towers because of Pj's additions. You know why? Because the books will always be there for me to read. The movie and the book are two different things. There is no way they could ever be the same things. I don't know if my attitude about this includes you because I don't know you, but I would be willling to bet the the people on these talkbacks that are bitching about how "the Two Towers was SHIT or SUCKED" are pretty souless, joyless individuals in most other areas of their lives as well.
-
The Faramir change was puzzling along with the change of the Ent
scenes. They never enraged me though like some of the posts I've read. The movie was awesome. I have read the books many times but seeing the movie, even an altered version, is beyond words.
Let me compare it to masturbating and actually sleeping with a real woman. The angry posts written by ear bleeding stressed out uber geeks have only known the touch of their own hands but when a woman comes along and fucks the shit out of them, confusion sets in. They don't like having their small stature exposed. So then comes anger.
Everyone who is actually enraged over the changes needs to go back into their caves and lube up. Don't come out again. Go back to playing your XBox.
-
to make me realise that my confusion for not being happy with the changes in the movie is because I masturbate and women don't sleep with me. Don't you children realise that all those taunts do is show how young and stupid you are?
-
Dec 19, 2002 10:12:11 AM CST
Sorry, but "i told you so" is pretty pathetic and meaninglless w
by minderbinder
And what's up with people who hated the first one bitching about the second? If you hated FotR, why did you go back for more? Idiots.
-
I did not read the books or have not seen the Towers movie.Aragorn dies in Towers.
I do know that Aragorn is in the third book at the end of it.
Why does PJ have him die?
And on IMDB, for Return of the King it is listed
Viggo Mortensen .... Aragorn/Strider/Elessar, King of Gondor -
...It's not THAT good. What's BAD: WARGS. GAG. Hyenas on Steroids. Pac-man level graphics. Yikes. ENTS-look like someone took a few too many acid hits when they dreamed up these. The attack was kinda violent fun-but you don't believe it for a second. The Cave Trolls are all quite claymation looking too. I agree about Helms Deep too-you can't really tell what is going on half the time, the Huorns are missing at the end, Gimli 'going on tour'-yeah I'll be here til Friday-' I half expected to see Billy Barty show up from Willow. Oh-and bringing in some Elves to fight-that was stupid. Not in the book. They hi-jacked Faramir's character too-what was up with that? Nazgul dive-bombing time. Gimme a break. Smeagol-good-but the audience was razzing him after awhile. 'My Precious-My birthdayyyyy present-' etc etc. hiss hiss. That got old too. I can't imagine how Jackson is going to alter ROK-what, Shagrat and Gorbag come out dressed as Laurel and Hardy? Benny Hill is CGI'd into the Cirith Ungol? Could happen...
-
It amazes me how many people out there refuse to like a popular movie, no matter how well it is done. I was overwhelmed with TTT last night. However, I get on this morning and I see people deconstructing every bit of it, trying to knock it down and tell everybody they're idiots for liking such a movie.
However, the goobers also pay their 8 bucks like everybody else just to see a movie they've already sworn to hate.
I must echo a previous post..."idiots". -
Dec 19, 2002 12:12:36 PM CST
Corrections and opinions. (and isn't that why we all come to thi
by wardog
Excuse me, Commander Vimes, but even though you're right about a lot of the added deviations PJ puts in TTT, the Ents did flood Isengard in the novel. I'm not exactly sure, but I think they did release a dammed-up river like they showed in the movie ******* Vox Millennium, while the whole sequence of Osgiliath should not have been filmed, I think Sam's speech was NOT preachy. It was right on, especially for the times we live in. Okay, whatever your views on that may be, Sam hit it on the head by saying what is good in the world is worth fighting for. I was so afraid he was going to utter some trite sentiment like what they had was "each other" as being worth fighting for. Nope. Sam's appeal was simple yet so profound, people have mostly forgotten what good things there are in life. *******ptindy, Aragorn does not die in the books, and I didn't get it that he is supposed to have died in this movie. Maybe that's why PJ put that whole stupid sequence in TTT. I don't think it worked, and even if it had on some level, it wasn't necessary to the main plot. ******* doc_loggins, yes, this movie is very much about the characters, but it is also about the events they're caught up in like a massive fucking hurricane of violence. Just which version of TTT did you see which has "really very few action sequences?" I feel sad that you didn't get to see the one I did which has a huge battle at Helm's Deep. Then there was the preceding Warg attack on the Rohirrim fleeing to Helm's Deep. And the Ent attack on Isengard. Also the fight between the Uruk-hai and the Orcs who had capture Merry and Pippin, and the culminating attack on all of them by the Rohirrim. Oh, and let us not forget the attack on the Haradrim/Southrons by Faramir's men and the attack on the Rohan village and the attack on Osgiliath. Gee, that makes EIGHT action sequences...NINE if you count the two-part battle between Gandalf and the Balrog. Too bad you didn't get to see all that. No wonder you were disappointed. ****** FINAL ANALYSIS: Aw, shit, I didn't like some of the things not in the book that were put in the movie either, but several worked and worked very well. Some were even logical, given the lead-in discussions, like the Elves sending a contingent to Helm's Deep. Or the regretable changes in Faramir's personality and outlook leading to their move to Osgiliath and then his finally letting Frodo, Sam & Gollum go. They should have been faithful to the book there, dammit, but considering how they played it out, it worked fairly well. We get to see the motivation for Gollum's regression later because of (unjust) feelings of betrayal, and we get Sam's speech which was EXCELLENT. And while we didn't see the confrontation of Saruman and his banishment by Gandalf, nor the Cirith Ungol sequences, those should help pad out the shorter third novel quite well. SO! BE YE PATIENT! This movie series isn't over yet, and PJ may redeem himself greatly with ROTK for what some perceive as sins committed upon TTT.
-
Dec 19, 2002 12:18:04 PM CST
Mr. Beaks is still posting here after what Harry did to his Neme
by clavius
Wow! I'm glad to see Mr. Beaks is a big enough person to continue posting here on AICN after Harry called him "delusionally retarded" and sabotaged his ST: Nemesis review. Me? I would've taken my business elsewhere after that.
-
Thanks for the info.
-
Arwen was a only present in flashbacks? The kings daughter
-
Ok...I have spent an hour reading the talkback for Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers and some of you people really need to get a goddamn life!
I'm from London, England. 24 hours ago I was watching Aragorn telling a young boy about to go into battle at Helm's Deep that, "there is always hope" A whole day later and I can't get TTT out of my mind....I'm going to see it again at the nearest opportunity.
Was it just me who felt that sence of melancholy as the strains of Gollum's Song faded in and we were treated to our first view of Mordor proper before the credits roled? What I felt was akin to the emotions I experienced as a child, when Christmas was finally over and a long year of normality lay ahead...I'm telling you, these movies are something special.
To people who are, "fans of the book and know about film-making" I would say this - get off your self satisfied, bandwagon jumping butt and make a better version!
I am currently on my tenth reading of LOTR (inspired to pick the book up again by Peter Jackson's FOTR, incidentally)- so you can assume that I quite like it - and I have nothing but admiration and praise for Peter Jackson, Philippa Boyens, Fran Walsh, Richard Taylor and everyone involved in the production of this remarkable adaptation.
I could ramble on about pace, linearity, plot digressions and exposition all night - but what you have to remember, is that these are people making a 9 hour movie on a subject they are all passionate about, so anything that was sacrificed, or added was done so out of necessity...or for dramatic effect (remember this is a movie not a book) ....I cannot imagine what Tom Bombadil would have looked like on screen, especially to the uninitiated. I remember thinking he was a bizarre, verging on the ridiculous, character when I was ten years old - and people were worried about how treebeard would come across!
Tolkein wrote amazing books, Peter Jackson has made an amazing film....and remember, we have only seen two thirds of it. Wait until all bets are in before you rip it to pieces.
A great deal of the material omitted from TTT will appear in ROTK (though how it's all going to fit into three hours is beyond me!) so may all the naysayers hold their tongues until the credits roll in December 2003.
Personally, I can't wait...this is history in the making people! -
I loved the film, but couldn't help but think there were some tough editing decisions when watching it. This one seems that it will definitley benefit from a Special Edition much more than fellowship did, at times something just felt to be missing........especially the Gondor stuff......Peace M
-
Let me begin by saying that the problem with sites like these is that they empower every jackass on the planet to act like he knows something about film. How about some damn perspective, assholes! This is a project that people have poured their hearts and souls into for an INSANE amount of years (perhaps even the bulk of their entire careers), and the results are ASTONISHING! What in the hell is wrong with you people? Does nothing impress you? This "seen-it-all" attitude that everyone has adopted is the REAL problem with cinema today. It saddens me deeply that people have become so jaded that this beautifully conceived work of art can be scoffed at and called things like "boring," "snoozefest," and "lame." FOTR was the setup, and this was the PERFECT payoff. This is perhaps the most epic struggle ever depicted in the history of film-making, and all some of you can muster is, "it was OK, but it wasn't like the book." F*CK the book. This movie is a helluva lot more than "OK." This movie was STEEPED in character development. We see the developing friendships, people losing all they've ever known and loved, people sacrificing their very lives for one another. Isn't this MORE like life? Do soldiers usually sit around bullshitting endlessly about world affairs and current events while the war is going on around them? These characters were developed by their ACTIONS...they didn't need pages of dialogue...it was time to ACT! And in the real world, isn't our true character is revealed in our most desperate circumstances? I'm just blown away that you geeks were finally given something that was almost SOLELY intended for you...something so stark and fully realized and fantastic, and you just SPAT IN IT'S FACE! Stop being so damn sarcastic and full of yourself and try to show some appreciation and respect for someone who's not only trying to ENTERTAIN you, but to bring to life something that is insurmountably difficult to film!! This is an INCREDIBLE achievement, and anyone who doesn't acknowledge that has some conflicting personal agenda.
-
American filmgoers are fucking morons. Each one of these negative reviews bashing this film as drivel, is going to rebut this claim by lying about their place of origin saying there's no way I could know where they are from simply by reading their posts. They will attack me and say I am wrong because I am 'mistaken' about where they are from. I know that much of the negativity surrounding this movie comes from the American side of things, because we are SO FRIGGING SPOILED as a people that the majority of those with access to such an outlet of free speech use it to carp about something they usually have no knowledge of.))))))))))))))))))))))))So much of this film was dead on to the spirit of the tale that I find NO fault in it. My only qualm was that the Faramir character was too subtle in the film. I believe his goodness and level-headedness shows when he is presented with the choice of keeping Frodo or letting him go and does the OPPOSITE of his brother. Also, for my tastes, the book is far from 'perfect' storytelling. Wading through hundreds of pages of history of a place drains all of the life from a story and side-tracks it.)))))))))))))))))))))))And to the guy who complained about the flooding of Isengard, in the book it is exactly the same. The Ents flood Isengard, and begin trying to tear down Orthanc. Why would a wizard build his tower so close to a dam? Well, genius, ask the Reverend Tolkien, he WROTE the damned thing.)))))))))))))))))))))And now for no vitriol: Man, this movie had so many good points that it was hard for me to go away from it with a negative feeling. Here's a nugget from the movie that shows Jackson knows exactly what to put into the story: Faramir, "Who are you? His bodyguard?" Sam, "No. I'm his gardener." Great stuff...Also the Ent battle where you think there will be a small victory for evil when the orcs set one alight, and he puts himself out...Powerful imagery...and Anthony Serkis' performance was uncanny...His voice gave life to a creature that needs to have a life that we care about...Great film. I'll see it again.))))))))))))))))))))UltimateDoom is outta here.
-
I hope no confused terrorists try to fly a plane into the print of Two Towers that I'm going to see tonight.
-
For those who claim that there's no "action" until Helm's Deep, let me save a lot of people calling you stupid, and give you a rundown off the top of my head of the action sequences in this film...And yes, I do count the OPENING SEQUENCE. ))))))))))))))))1. Opening sequence/Balrog Vs. Gandalf. 2. Gollum Vs. Frodo and Sam 3. The chase for Merry and Pippin 4. The taking of the small town where the children were sent away. 5. Worg fight 6. Encounter with the Rohorrim, which is totally badass. 7. Merry and Pippen Vs. Orc heading into Fangorn 8. Orc Vs. Treebeard (albiet short))))))))))))A lot of action sequences make me think that this movie you 'saw' was one that you slept through. Jeebus.
-
So perusing the Talk Back I had to add some thoughts:
-I guess the whole Aragorn "death" thing was a nod to the hero cycle, where the hero has to die to be reborn in their new incarnation- (like Gandalf) here a physical "rebirth" through the water. So I bought it and the English major in me loved it.
-I totally enjoyed Gollum/Smeargol's arguments (although the way they used the camera to depict his dual nature reminded me of "Geri's Game") - my favorite being the return of Gollum after Frodo's betrayal when you see him consoling himself by patting himself on the back - so GOOD!
-Shaky camera and insanity in the battle scenes made them confusing? Good God, man, what do you expect battle is like? I thought it was a fantastic depiction! I never felt lost (like I did in the shaky cam at the beginning of "Gladiator"), I felt a part of the madness and action. Really fabulously done.
-The scene in the marsh is just creepy - I read an article of how this mirrored JJRT's battle experience of seeing the dead and having to crawl past them; here you FEEL that.
-So despite any license taken with the source material, I think PJ's best accomplishment is that he captures the emotion and feeling behind the original text. I couldn't ask for a better set of fantasy films. -
Dec 19, 2002 7:00:04 PM CST
Never thought I would say this, but Beaks, yours is actually a b
by empyreal0
Normally Mori's the guy I count on. The guy who doesn't let me down. Lately... I haven't agreed with him as much as I used to. Maybe it's a matter of taste, I don't know. But thank you, Beaks, for saying in so many words exactly what I felt after seeing this. And that ending could have worked even if unresolved. CLIFFHANGERS WORK, especially in ACT 2. (See the Back to the Future trilogy for details.) If only we'd ended on more of an "oh shit" note than "yay, we kicked ass, what's next."
-
Where has the magical feeling gone? I thought TTT was visually stunning but lacked the passion of FOTR. Much of the script was forced and uninteresting. What I liked most about FOTR was that it not only succeeded as an epic film production, it also was one of the most intelligently scripted book-to-screen adaptations I've ever seen. TTT by contrast had only a Star Wars level of clunky dialogue, with the exception of Gollum. Frodo's struggle with the Ring was overdone to the point that there is really nowhere else for it to go - it's obvious he won't be able to destroy the Ring on his own in the end.
Faramir was totally off-mark. Where was the noble countenance? I hope Denethor is portrayed more effectively.
As a sidenote, what was with the cheesy lightning bolts going through the Eye. What happened to the Eye "wreathed in flame"?
The editing also disappointed me. We could have used less of the added scenes of Rohan (especially the superfluous Aragorn "death" scene) and more of Fangorn Forest. I know this is the dark second act, but it is important to contrast the ancient beauty of Middle-Earth with the darkness and destructive power of war. The scene of Treebeard's house would have been a big help. Also, the singing drone of the Ents and the Entmoot was sorely missed.
The Good: I loved Gollum and Sean Astin also impressed me. Gimli's comic relief was enjoyable, though a bit overdone at times. The Balrog fight scenes were amazing as was the reunion of the three hunters and Gandalf the White.
All in all, I like the movie as a fantasy epic, but it is not on par with what I've come to expect from Peter Jackson. I only hope that the ROTK script sticks closer to the source material (on the level of FOTR) and that the editing is approached differently. Bring back the passion!
-
The world rises and falls like a great heaving chest as it breathes in and out. A great sigh of relief echo's. The Two Towers has been released. Is it glorious? Is it Epic? Is it TRUE to the books?
Working in reverse-Peter Jackson has repeatedly said that the movies are not the books, but they are as close as you can get. I believe that. Tolkiens masterpiece was a work of art and to translate that art to a Movie screen; You would need a million hours. In our minds, those that have read the books, the movies are a great let down because of forgotten points. But what he has done with what he had is absolutely astonishing and breathtaking. Because of him millions of young people clamored to the book stores to read the real mccoy. So, did he really do such a bad thing by trying to put flesh to our fantasy? I don't think so. No other studio wanted to touch it. No other Director, no other living soul could have done it any better. Would it have been better to let that Tolkien masterpiece set on book shelves and simply fade in and out of our lives without ever tasting of those brilliantly Epic worlds that filled our imaginations? I don't think so. What Peter Jackson has done is flesh out the people, as best he could, inescapably create a world we can feel and see, and lend reason to believe that what Tolkien did was not only great, but that it can never be done again quite possibly. My children now read the books they swore they never would. So, Peter Jackson is okay in my opinion. Is it True to the books? No. But how many other books have we seen made with low budgets, bad actors, bad screenwriters, and terrible, God Awful crap in them? Too many. This is as close as it comes, as close as it will ever come. For that I will be grateful. Is it glorious? Yes. Is it great? Yes. -
Dec 20, 2002 11:36:05 AM CST
The only PROBLEMS that really bugged me all that bad about TTT..
by empyreal0
...was the lack of any punch to the ending. Any thoughts on why? All we needed was to see what horrors were beyond the black gates, ever so briefly, to know that the world was in trouble now that Sauron is pissed off. We needed to see that Frodo was losing it by the end of the story, not that he had a couple episodes here and there, but that something was truly and terribly wrong and there's a very real risk they'll lose the ring to Sauron. Pull the rug out from under us, stir us up, make us uneasy, something to get us salivating for ROTK, to legitamize the running in circles that was TTT, so that we know that the story has actually gone somewhere. That's all I wanted. That's the point of part 2 in a trilogy. Part 1 sets up the problem. Part 2 expands the problem, and pushes toward Part 3 which resolves the problem. Part 2 has to end with uncertainty, because resolution is the entire POINT of part 3. Instead, PJ's Part 1 set up the problem and complicated it, Part 2 set up new problems and resolved them and most of the problems from Part 1, but didn't remind us (viscerally, with emotion, gut feeling and all) that we've still got the biggest problem of all left. The ring. My suggestion: (and I didn't read ROTK, so I'm making things up, bear with me...) Frodo loses the ring to Gollum. BIG cliffhanger. Very nice. Ties up all sorts of loose ends (like giving a purpose to Gollum who is a great character but does little to advance the plot thus far) and pushes toward ROTK. If that's how it happens in the book, then damn it, that's how PJ should have done it. And if that's how it happens in the books, sorry for the spoiler. But hell, PJ's taken so many liberties with the text, I think that would have been just one more (and a good change at that!) Think the battle's over just because we won Helm's Deep and trashed Isengard? The ring's in enemy hands. We're fucked. Now that's an ending.
-
Does anyone know if the Narsil is ever going to make its way to the movies? I mean I thought the reforging of the sword was a symbolic and good part of the book, but it still hasn't been reforged in the movies yet.
-
I read all the notes and had further thoughts. It seems to me that the complaints are from people who just wanted it to be better! Yes they want it to be the best possible, and Jackson probably wanted to do the same. And yes when he departs from the book the most, is when it feels the weakest! He tries to show what is in the book and mostly succeeds. If the story progresses than he has achieved his goal. And in spite of my reservations about Faramir's treatment and the elves' appearance, especially Haldir dying,I know I will think he did a good job after seeing it a few more times. So what if he did not do a perfect job? I'm sure that now he realizes also the major problems, which probably were not clear when it was first cut. Hopefully the 'extended edition' will improve the continuity, as it did for the first one.
I must conclude that it did feel weaker, more objectionable, than the first. But not a failure, not bad. So lets warm up to it. Try to gloss over the points we like the least, and think ahead to the glorious conclusion to come. -
we're all gonna be in line when the delicious TTT ultra dvd with biggie fries comes out, forking over our hard earned loot! in how many months? merry christmas!
-
Well, I was going for my 2nd viewing yesterday but overdid it on the J-meister and took an inadvertent nap on the old sofa. But I'm on my way today - I'm falling too far behind! I'm homesick for Middle Earth. And that darling Gimli can do no wrong in my eyes since his beautiful "She gave me three" line in the SEV. Can't wait to see Legolas draw down on Eomer again in defense of his stocky, smart-assed buddy on their road trip of all road trips. And I know I'm gonna cry (Don't you even know your Sam???) but that's OK. Happy New Year Tailenders!
-
...kind of like the 'slinker/stinker' arrangement you know? (Although I personally could not tell you which is which!) I'm out the door to veiwing #5. Will talk at you all a bit later... AND: Let's all just stay HERE now? Ok? All the jumping around is getting to be MORE confusing, not less. HAPPY HAPPY NO F*$#ING TRILOGY NEW YEARS YA'LL!!!
-
I'm fresh back from seeing "Chicago" with my sister and brother-in-law, and can hardly wait to get to TTT tomorrow to wipe all that glitz and cynicism from my brain. I know we will be in the minority. I enjoyed the first two or three numbers, and think Catherine Zeta-Jones is the most beautiful woman to appear on screen in several decades. (And I loved "All That Jazz" back in the 70s or 80s or whenever it was - enough to see it several times.) But it just made me/us tired, watching this energetic bump-and-grind about people with no values, no brains and no inner life beyond their lust for fame and money, and it doesn't matter how many sequins you tart it up in.... So, here I sit, TTT score playing, glass of Santa Margherita in hand, ready for a bit of posting, and perhaps a pre-midnight course of FOTR, washed down with another chapter of TTT. ***Elanor, so glad you're back. I'm beginning to wonder whether the Paths of the Dead will be in it, or the ships, or any of it... they have so much ground to cover (pushing a good third of TTT to ROTK), and so little time left to do it, and so many explanations needed if they do include it (not to mention a bigger map)! And actually, it is the part of ROTK that leaves the least impression on me and feels the most distant, though I don't suppose Jackson will leave out anything with dead people in it.... I should think Arwen has the banner and shards in her luggage, and will promptly veer south, or what's the point? But at least if she came with a ship, Anduril, banner and more elvish warriors, it would involve fewer explanations as to where the extra army came from. ***I am very mixed about the Arwen scenes in TTT, because while I find the ones that back the appendix deeply moving and love the image of Aragorn dead/carved and Arwen veiled, the rest actually subtracts from what we think we know. One of my favorite additions to FOTR was the scene of Elrond blessing the Fellowship and Frodo turning to lead them out... and my clear take on Aragorn and Arwen in that scene was that they were covering their deep emotion with dignity and that they were both thinking that THIS was when he either won through to his crown and to her, or was going to his death. What is the point of the scene on the bridge in FOTR, if they are not truly pledged from that moment on? The thought that he has tried to return the necklace, just moments before setting out...! Too much of it felt like an attempt to give Arwen screen time, and certainly a violation of the screenwriters' rule that every scene should accomplish several things, not to mention Jackson's repeated assertion that this is Frodo's story. I would cheerfully have traded screen time with Arwen for screen time with Frodo, Sam and Gollum. Bring on the elven rope down the cliff in the rain and the extended coney scene! ***And I simply cannot believe people who complain that Frodo and Sam in TTT just "walk around" or "meet people and talk" or whatever the complaints are that these parts are boring. (Nor do I see that film-Faramir is less "boring" than book-Faramir, as I don't find Un!Faramir any more dynamic for being less noble.) An extended interrogation of Frodo could have been simply riveting.... If movies are all about "imagery" and dialogue is no longer "cinematic," then we have gone full circle to the silent era, when there was imagery aplenty. ***A week or two ago, I happened to catch a bit of "Lawrence of Arabia," including the scene in Prince Feisel's tent where Lawrence annoys his superior and intrigues Feisel, quoting the Koran that "the desert is a sea in which no oar is dipped," leading to the "miracle" of the assault on Aqaba. Now, that scene would be cut in half so that "Lawrence" could clock in under three hours - and it's dialogue scenes like that that make "Lawrence" the second-greatest epic of all time (after LOTR). Images and words should work together, not be in a battle for time.
-
I was going to quit and go watch FOTR, but realize I haven't tackled Elanor's question. (And by the way, it's not fair to the theatrical audience to offer THEM no explanation why Faramir knew of Boromir's death - and don't you love the idea of "scouts" reporting the going-on in Rohan all the way to Ithilien as events are transpiring!) The only explanation I can offer is that Sam in his slow way put two-and-two together into a theory. He's actually the one that hasn't seen ANY of the orc attack, but just heard swords clashing in the woods. Frodo must have told him of Boromir's crazed behavior; Sam knows the Fellowship has scattered and that some kind of battle is going on. He may just assume that if Boromir is dead, it had something to do with his betrayal of Frodo - that if they'd all stuck together, they'd have gotten safely away. But it's just a theory. There really IS no reason for Sam to know more than Frodo can have told him. And it's a pity Frodo never gets to learn that Boromir died well (at least as much as a description of Faramir's vision might have told him). ***Visions another thing book-Faramir and Frodo have in common.
-
Thanks for the email Elanor. There's no problem though. I've got excellent anitvirus software. Cheers.
-
and I'm sticking right here from now on! As for Elanor's question, I agree with DoT. I always assumed that Sam just put two and two together in his mind (and came up with three), and his idea of Boromir's death lies there. Though in a way he's right. If Boromir hadn't gone temporarily wacko, he wouldn't have had such a need to prove his worth protecting the hobbits in the battle to his death. (Well, I think he still would've battled and most likely would have died, but I don't know if he'd have put himself SO out there instead of retreating more with the hobbits, if he wasn't feeling so guilty.)
-
Jan 01, 2003 1:44:09 PM CST
I think I've figured out the whole "unFaramir", Osgiliath, final
by skyway moaters
... When Faramir says: "I Think we finally understand each other Frodo Baggins" he is not referring to Sam's "good worth fighting for" speech per-se but rather, indirectly to Frodo's "I can't do this!" and Sam's response of "You're right it's all wrong". Faramir doesn't want HIS job any more that Frodo wants his. Neither Frodo nor Faramir are "masters of their own fate" by this point in the tale. Faramir is not the 'pure warrior' that Boromir was. He is the reluctant captain put forward in Boromir's stead out of his sense of duty to his father and Gondor. It is this sense of duty that he and Frodo share. Faramir wishing to be the dutiful son decides to send the Ring to Minas Tirith. Frodo realizes that the destruction of the Ring is HIS appointed task; HE is the dutiful son of all Middle Earth. Faramir recognizes the parallel after the confrontation with the Nazgul AND Sam
-
*SIGH*
-
Jan 01, 2003 2:00:05 PM CST
Let this out of the previous post (near the bottom of this TB)..
by skyway moaters
...Setting the Frodo Faramir scenes in Osgiliath is MORE cinematic device. First, it lends urgency to the plight of Gondor. But more importantly it makes the whole idea that Sauron believes the the Ring to be in Gondor more plausible to film audiences. There's that damn phrase that seems to set purists off again: "Film Audiences"... Tch Tch. Books/Movies? Can't ever be identical, not possible...
-
It's almost noon, but I slept in after staying up to watch FOTR, completing ignoring the fireworks right outside my window, as just as that moment the Uruk-Hai were carrying off Merry and Pippin (made for a rather loud accompaniment). FOTR is still my favorite.... For one thing, MORE FRODO! Though darker and increasingly more angsty Frodo is definitely a plus.... Elanor, I am way ahead of you, having been in love with Elijah-as-Frodo from his first moment under the trees, and wherever else I may pick nits, that will never be one of them. He just nails it in scene after scene, his soul in his eyes. When you think how close the emotions are that he has to play, and yet he continually finds all the subtleties in those layers of fear, strain, anxiety, stark terror, grief, hopelessness, determination, courage, defiance... which make all those little flashes of joy and relief and tenderness and gratitude all the more poignant. I will be just insane if he goes on being overlooked in the acting accolades. ***Moaters, excellent points about Faramir coming to an understanding of Frodo, but still feel "understanding" runs one way, as Frodo is given no similar revelations about Faramir. One would have to extrapolate a lot of missing dialogue between Frodo and Boromir for him to know that much. I'm sorry, but the film Faramir is NOT the book Faramir without his REAL gentleness and compassion/respect/affection for Frodo - he is merely a fairly blank template onto which we can paste what we would like to see. ***Unfortunately, I'm trying to rest my hands, which are showing nasty signs of repetitive stress syndrome, so must log off. Planning a nice walk around Coronado, and then #5 for TTT.
-
... Both Elanor and DoT pointed out aspects of Faramir's characterization in the book that I have seemingly (even wilfully perhaps) forgotten or ignored. The friendship between Frodo and Faramir won't come accross in the films, and it is a loss to those of us that love the novel. Even so, I think the term "unFaramir" is at least an exaggeration, and at worst, a case of purist pedantry. I personally like the 'film Faramir' quite a-lot, but I do agree that it's a shame we won't get to know him as well as we do the 'book Faramir'. Rationalization Elanor? I think it just took me a while to wade through my own preconceptions to be able to understand how and why Pj&Co have handled Faramir as they have.
-
Ah, just came back from my second viewing. Now I can finally start to adjust to this film. Still not as good as FotR because, as elanor and dot have already stated, there is not nearly enough Frodo! We needs more! I think I adore gollum and Frodo now, but why can
-
Jan 01, 2003 9:19:40 PM CST
Scouring Of The Shire is out - Dumbing Down Of The Shire is in!
by billy budd
Hmmm, just got back from my third viewing of TTT and it's still a bit of a mixed bag for me. I've no problem with the changes, and there are parts of the movie I love..... but does anyone else think that the story has been significantly dumbed down since FOTR? I mean, some of the plot devices and motivations seem childish and patronising - like Pippin telling Treebeard to go north, and the constant spelling out of the plot - we get it! Oh, and Sam's cringey speech at the end - I'll say no more! I realise that this makes TTT more audience-friendly (nobody ever lost money from underestimating the audience's intelligence) but I miss the FOTR approach which was to throw the audience in and let the story tell itself. In TTT some of the speeches have become quite hokey and I think the Arwen scenes are now too laboured (they were perfect in FOTR). Okay, I don't want to be a grumbly old curmudgen 'cause there's lots to admire - my favorite bit is when the ents make mincemeat of Isengard - a scene of utter majesty. Best bit: the shot of the ents "digging in" as the flood swirls around them. Strangely poetic. Oh, and did anyone notice that when the first orc is accidentally shot at Helm's Deep, they use the 'game over' sound effect from the Pac-man video game as the orc keels over. Not quite Tolkien but hilarious!*******Mr Skyway Moaters, slow down there, sir! I don't know where you are getting Faramir's motivation from - but nothing you describe is actually in the movie - and I've seen it three times. I'm afraid that you are applying your own (highly imaginative) interpretation to the movie - good for you, but I'm afraid that if it's not actually on the screen, then I can't go along with it. Just judging by how this scene is staged, shot and edited in the movie, I would have to say that Faramir changes his mind because for the second time in this movie, he has been listening in on Sam+Frodo's conversation (PJ's Faramir is a bit of an eavesdropper!) and has been deeply 'moved' by Sam's cringey speech. Like it or loathe it - that's how it's presented in this movie. Though you could definitely argue that this, combined with all the preceeding events in the Sam/Frodo/Gollum freakshow has convinced him that the ring should be as far away from Gondor as humanely possible.
-
Jan 01, 2003 10:39:47 PM CST
Scouring Of The Shire is out - Dumbing Down Of The Shire is in!
by billy budd
Hmmm, just got back from my third viewing of TTT and it's still a bit of a mixed bag for me. I've no problem with the changes, and there are parts of the movie I love..... but does anyone else think that the story has been significantly dumbed down since FOTR? I mean, some of the plot devices and motivations seem childish and patronising - like Pippin telling Treebeard to go north, and the constant spelling out of the plot - we get it! Oh, and Sam's cringey speech at the end - I'll say no more! I realise that this makes TTT more audience-friendly (nobody ever lost money from underestimating the audience's intelligence) but I miss the FOTR approach which was to throw the audience in and let the story tell itself. In TTT some of the speeches have become quite hokey and I think the Arwen scenes are now too laboured (they were perfect in FOTR). Okay, I don't want to be a grumbly old curmudgen 'cause there's lots to admire - my favorite bit is when the ents make mincemeat of Isengard - a scene of utter majesty. Best bit: the shot of the ents "digging in" as the flood swirls around them. Strangely poetic. Oh, and did anyone notice that when the first orc is accidentally shot at Helm's Deep, they use the 'game over' sound effect from the Pac-man video game as the orc keels over. Not quite Tolkien but hilarious!*******Mr Skyway Moaters, slow down there, sir! I don't know where you are getting Faramir's motivation from - but nothing you describe is actually in the movie - and I've seen it three times. I'm afraid that you are applying your own (highly imaginative) interpretation to the movie - good for you, but I'm afraid that if it's not actually on the screen, then I can't go along with it. Just judging by how this scene is staged, shot and edited in the movie, I would have to say that Faramir changes his mind because for the second time in this movie, he has been listening in on Sam+Frodo's conversation (PJ's Faramir is a bit of an eavesdropper!) and has been deeply 'moved' by Sam's cringey speech. Like it or loathe it - that's how it's presented in this movie. Though you could definitely argue that this, combined with all the preceeding events in the Sam/Frodo/Gollum freakshow has convinced him that the ring should be as far away from Gondor as humanely possible.
-
Xyzan, agree with you about favorite characters in TTT (Aragorn not being one of them). I can't think of any moments that I really treasure that are his in this one - unlike FOTR, when there were so many: explaining the Nazgul to Frogo, his fighting on Weathertop and against the Uruk-Hai, etc..... Both my sister and the friend who went with me the first time agreed that Aragorn just seems a weaker and less interesting character this time around. Conflicted is one thing, but he's just taking up way too much screen time Not Ready To Be King. I'm starting to get the impression that the scriptwriters are far too into indecision: we have a waffling Aragorn, a waffling Theoden, and a seriously less-than-charismatic Faramir. The ones with charisma for me are Frodo, Legolas, Gimli, Haldir, Merry and Pippin... and actually, a few moments of Eomer. He looked the stuff out of legend right before the charge.... And now for the really evil thought (take note, Billy Budd): that speech of Sam's may be a fine voice-over for the mopping-up operations and to try to get that note of hope into the finale, but it is just WRONG for what has just happened with Frodo. This time around (#5), I wanted Frodo to slam Sam back against the wall and snarl, "The problem isn't that I don't think there is GOODNESS in the world, Sam! The problem is that I just went into an ecstatic trance, offering myself and the Ring to a Nazgul - and we're not even inside MORDOR yet! Do you think my belief in goodness had ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT?!!!" That scene of Frodo surrendering himself is so powerful that for Sam to be offering the kind of pep-talk he'd give Frodo if he were merely discouraged and exhausted is just obscene. Frodo's defeated "I can't do this..." deserved better. God, a hopeless SILENCE for a few beats would have been better. He could just close his eyes and fade back to Galadriel's "If you can't do this, no one can...." and open his eyes to the realization that it's still up to him, and look grim and purposeful again.... If there is a single moment in the book where Frodo thinks of quitting, maybe someone can point it out to me, because I don't remember it. It is his will and Sam's love that keeps them going, and his will should no more falter than Sam's love, once they've crossed the Anduin.
-
Jan 02, 2003 4:53:54 AM CST
Magical random TB posting ahoy! Elanor, Daughter Of Time, can y
by billy budd
Well, let's not be too negative, but you make some interesting points, Daughter Of Time and Elanor. Yes, it never occured to me but it's true: Sam's speech has nothing to do with what just happened. Ooooh, Elanor, is Sam's speech really written by Tolkien? Even the 'there's some good in the world' bit? Doesn't really sound like it, because Tolkien loathed such overt speechifying. I think some uplifting speech at this point in the movie is a fine idea but I find that it is just too baldly sentimental, i.e. when he says, "I think I understand now, Mr. Frodo" I expect him to say, "I love you, E.T." or "I'm going to miss you, Mr. Scarecrow, and you too, Mr. Tin Man...." Also, I get distracted by Sam's accent which seems to travel between Yorkshire and Tipperary. I still maintain that Faramir likes listening at keyholes and hiding around corners. And why not? It's quite funny! As for the constant voiceovers and 'explanations', well, part of my problem with these speeches is that they are surprisingly badly written, occassionally using language which sounds out of place. Compare Galadriel's narration in the prologue of FOTR which was beautifully worded to the rather clumsy and awkward phraseology in her TTT speech. Yes, I find myself cringing again! Well, never mind: as Elanor has pointed out, ordinary decent cinema-goers don't mind having everything explained to them. As for Daughter Of Time's disappointment with Aragorn etc: I know what you mean. I thought the whole Aragorn/Arwen deal was better left the way it was after FOTR, rather than 'revising' their commitment to each other in a game of Pass-The-Parcel with Arwen's heart (the little white jewelry thing). Perhaps we could play the game ourselves, tracking the movements of this little jewel. Arwen gives it to Aragorn; he takes it but later gives it back; she immediately gives it back to him again. Then an orc takes it and is thrilled to now be in possession of Liv Tyler's heart. But tragically he dies, so Legolas takes over - a more suitable boyfriend if you ask me - he can live with her forever in Valinor - problem solved! But no! Legolas has so many admirers that he finds it impossible to commit to just one girl and quickly becomes bored of the relationship. And now the jewel comes back to Aragorn which puts us right back at square one. In ROTK, Arwen's heart will be auctioned off to the highest bidder. And that would be Gimli, 'cause his family is dripping in gold and have many 'jewels beneath the earth'. Gimli will insist that Arwen grow a beard and take steroids to deepen her voice......you see how far we have come? Anyway, I still love the warg attack, Helm's Deep, Gollum and the return of Gandalf. And I especially love the flooding of Isengard - an astonishing scene. Despite all the nit-picking, this is still one of the best fantasy movies ever made. "What's 'taters', precious, eh?"
-
Xyzan: I sort of have to disagree on your Faramir theory about believing Denethor could handle the Ring. Being a student of Gandalf's (who would not dare to touch the Ring, no matter how good he is, even though he is one of the Maiar), I don't think Faramir would assume the Ring would be safe in anyone's hands. Hell, it also twisted Isildur, who could be considered mentally stronger than Denethor merely by being of more pure Numenorean blood. *Also disagree on Sam's reaction to Gollum. Yes, it could be considered strange that Sam can't understand the Frodo/Gollum connection, but that's what it was like in the book. He lacked a great deal of understanding or empathy towards that situation or Gollum in general. I guess that's always been one of the reasons I really started disliking Sam as a reader. I always felt to sorry for Gollum, that I got infuriated with Sam kicking him around and calling him names. That annoyance is still there when Sam pulls Gollum down off the rock by tugging on the rope and calls him names in TTT. Man, and just as Astin was winning me over to the character, too. Still, at least it's being faithful about the feelings the characters are invoking in me. ***Billy Budd: LOL! Great stuff about the "pass the parcel" game taking place. Actually, on watching FOTR and TTT, I'm thinking that "Legolas can't tie himself to any one girl" bit should be changed to "Legolas has already lost his heart to Gandalf". No, seriously. He's the one that pulls Gandalf from the brink when the avalanche comes. On the stairs of Moria, he immediately calls for Gandalf to jump to safety (and his arms). He's totally crushed after Gandalf's death (his teary-eyed "for me, the grief is still too near" takes the cake). And I don't know, but for some reason the first time Gandalf walks into Edoras and Legolas supports him, I almost started giggling because I had a mental image of a bride and groom walking down the aisle. And Gandalf's long, all-white gown didn't help. I'm joking, of course, but the natural elf/Mithrandir bond does occasionally get twisted in the mind after a night of partying.
-
Jan 02, 2003 10:42:44 AM CST
Excuse me Billy Budd, but: What makes your interpretation any mo
by skyway moaters
... The subject line of the post in question begins with "I THINK". I didn't come to this interpretation of the "Film Faramir" until after my 5th viewing, which in it self suggests that PJ fails to some degree, with this portrayal of Faramir, at least for careful readers of the novel if not for "non LOTR reading" viewers in general. *** Just because you didn't see what I did, doesn't mean the ideas I expressed aren't on the screen. PJ's Faramir bugged me, I couldn't figure it out. I'm at peace with it now. I didn't just pull that post out of my ass in sycophantic support of PJ's adaptation. I was quite sincere and thought about it for quite a while before putting fingers to keyboard. *** At the risk of offending, now that I've "sown the seeds" of this take on PJ's Faramir in your mind, I submit, that after your next viewing, you MIGHT find that you and I are closer together in our respective opinions that you now believe; that is, if you can keep an open mind. Your last post demonstrated (at least to me) that you are not currently in possession of one;
-
Jan 02, 2003 11:23:59 AM CST
Nice post Elanor, and it confirmed something with me.
by conan_the_humble
I am not terribly fond of some of the changes to the story made by PJ et al. Castigate me as a purist if you will. That's fine, I consider it an honour. I do not consider it necessary to have Faramir decide to take Frodo to Minas Tirith. The central theme of these movies as stated by PJ and others is the destruction of the Ring. It does not advance this plot, to have the Ringbearer and his assistant brought backwards from their journey by the Brother of a man who tried to do exactly that. If anything, the way that TOLKIEN wrote it originally does far more to advance this plot than does the re-write. To me it smacks more of arrogance and pride on behalf of the screenwriters than what was necessary to tranfer the material from Literary to theatrical form. Elijah Woods during an interview (available on theonering.net) states at the very end of the interview, "It's like you can't complain too much, because we are trying to be as close to the book as possible; it's just that certain things are moved around and changed just to make that film format a little bit clearer to better tell the story, I think." Well to a certain extent, yes I can!!! I applaud the desire to stay close as close as possible to the books. I also want you make the VERY best movie you can. That doesn't mean that both are mutually exclusive however. In my view, the elements of dialogue that have been 'adapted' from the books are the least successful parts of these movies. I far prefer the SEV of FOTR to the theatrical version, because most of the additions are literal translations. I am hoping the SEV of TTT is the same!!! Anyway, it's late where I am, so I will continue this argument, anon!!! Cheers.
-
Ack! >sob!< http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Entertainment/story_44482.asp ....Oh, godammit. [heaving tear-soaked sigh] *** Hullo all, and thanks for the heads-up to here, elanor y SM/FC! Busy as all get out until next week at least (workplace still righting itself after insanity of holiday scheduling), but here is where I'll be coming to! Can't wait to (a) see T2T a fifth time this weekend, (b) spend a luxuriously long lunch next week, pretending to dutifully work while eating at my desk but really catching up on all of this TBin', and (c) seeing at least one other movie (out of a sense of movie-geek guilt overcoming the Tolkien-geek) before seeing T2T a sixth time. *** Woo-hoo Miami Mofo! Yep, it was a sloppy as hell nailbiter that came closer than I expected or wanted, but a W's a W. And with y'all's tromping of OSU tomorrow night looks like the Big East is getting the Cup! I don't often say this ;) but GO 'CANES!
-
It's got good ol Gollum on the cover in all his "Is it CG or flesh or rubber puppet or..?" amazing self. Just as in-depth and interesting as last year's Fellowship issue! And puts aside any doubts that there'll be enough material for 7 hours MORE of making-of features on the T2T SEV. *** Also where I learned the answer to morG's question! (Yes I took some time here to skim and lurk about this morning;) You're right near it, Fister, Skyway, or whichever of you it was that took a crack at it, but I believe morG asked who in the MOVIE T2T is Sharku--er, you did, didn't ya? Anyway, they called the Warg-rider Captain Orc Fella "Sharku" for the sake of naming him (he did have dialogue, after all). He's the dude with the huge clawmarks down his face, whom Saruman gives the order to and Aragorn rodeo-stunt-rides with. Right? Some great character descriptions of who they envisioned that Orc being in the Cinefex, too (why they gave him "old man" for a name). Of all the folx to imagine a backstory and motivation for! In other words, Taylor and Weta are mad, mad, mad geniuses the lot of em. So, what did I win again? :) Anyway, I guess with that puts the final kibosh on "Sharkey" showing up in ROTK, eh? Alas.... Namarie til next week!
-
Jan 02, 2003 1:14:07 PM CST
ACK! Totally misinterpreted morGs 'Sharku contest question'...
by skyway moaters
... seen the damn thing 5 times and I'm still missing details! No memory of the Warg Rider "Captain's" name what-so-ever!... Oh well, just more provocation for the inevitable 6th viewing! This old conexxion bloak's ears are a-burin somthin' fierce! Red faced I am. Namarie, Trubba Not, blah blah blah...
-
...I thought you, of ALL posters would remember the footnote on page 298 of ROTK (red leatherette collector's edition): "*It was probably Orkish in origin: sharku, 'old man'." Still, I did misinterpret the question, thought you were talking novel, not film...
-
Jan 02, 2003 1:37:59 PM CST
Last one morG, you've brought up the only real problem I had wit
by skyway moaters
...how the heck DO Sam and Frodo get back across Anduin with Sauron's forces holding the eastern shore?! "Changes begetting further changes ad infinitum.
-
I can't even figure out how Faramir got his party to the WEST bank of Osgiliath in mid-assault. Certainly looks like the bridge is down, and has been down a while. And boats would look like a scene from the Siege of Stalingrad.... And sewers do not go UNDER rivers; they empty into them.
-
Mithril - thanks for the laughs. You gave me some too, I must say. LOL! So you reckon Legolas is more fairy than elf? The facts, as you present them, will bear that out, I guess. He does gaze at Gandalf rather adoringly. I can hear the shattering of a million female hearts though. **********Whoa, Mr Moaters sir, sorry if you took offence, it's all harmless fun. I never said your interpretation was bad! I think it's imaginative, passionate, intricately thought out and articulate. But it's just not in the movie! I'm sorry but for me this movie leaves little or no room for interpretation. PJ paints his canvas with extremely broad strokes - everything is clear, simplified and spelled out. Again and again and again. That's what makes Middle-earth so accessible to the general public and keeps the tills ringing. Really, there are no hidden meanings - everything's up there to see. So I'm not interpreting the Faramir thing at all. I'm going purely on what PJ shows us. Which is that Frodo and Sam have a little altercation and Sam makes an impassioned speech, at the end of which Faramir, who has been listening, says, "At last we understand one another, Frodo Baggins." Plain and simple. I think that's okay butI understand if you find this too sloppy and want to read betweeen the lines or project deeper psychological meanderings - that's fine, why not? I'll even go along with you a bit: if you watch closely, you'll see that Faramir is obviously perturbed by the complete wierdness of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum/ring sideshow (who could blame him!). And that may or may not have a baring on his final decision to get the ring out of his sight. If you want to say that, then I'll say, yeah, what the hell - it's a fun movie.
-
... I didn't mean to over-react, but you did take me to task whether you meant to or not. You maintain that the grounds for my interpretation aren't in the film, I maintain that they are. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree. It's all good. I'll try to site specific script points supporting my interpretation after viewing #6. Trubba Not, we're cool...
-
No hard feelings, I hope - and apologies if I was a bit flippant before - flippancy can come across badly without tone of voice etc. I will say though, that I'm happy with the changes to the Faramir subplot - we get to see Osgiliath + flying Nazgul + cool Gondorian knights. So: going to see TTT again? Be sure to come back and give us your overall impressions after the sixth viewing. I have seen FOTR dozens of times and TTT thrice and have a theory...(crackpot theory coming up)....I really feel that TTT won't stand up to repeated viewings the way FOTR does. Good and all as TTT is - it's a different kind of movie to FOTR. I see TTT as a superb blockbuster/popcorn movie which doesn't suit being analysed too closely. FOTR is very different. It is, in one word: resonant. No matter how many times I watch it I am still spellbound by the many iconic moments of cinematic grandeur - the way the words, images, music and performances complement each other so well. I don't feel the same way about TTT - it just doesn't quite have the same mythic quality. I may be wrong, I may change my mind - only time will tell. Anyway, let us know what you think after the show.
-
Here's the link to an excellent article by Tom Shippey: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/01/02/do0201.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/01/02/por_right.html
-
...in not thinking TTT will stand up to repeated viewings like TTT. I have seen it five times, and it is not for the whole - it is for the parts. There are already so many places where I am longing for the DVD so I can move on to what I care about - the parts that really ARE wonderful. I was all the more struck by this as I spent the last hours of 2002 watching FOTR. Yes, there are a few places where I hit the skip button (there are only so many times I need to watch the Uruk-Hai being de-podded) - but many more where I hit the freeze-frame. And this is after 25+ viewings, not five. I still think it's 95% perfection. It flows; it has magic. TTT is part masterpiece, part popcorn-movie, when I was led to expect another masterpiece - when we thought the filmmakers had learned to TRUST the audience and Tolkien. (If the revisions to Faramir REALLY worked, would we be debating it? If it's just the purists, does anyone know a non-Tolkienite who came out with a strong, positive response to the character on the screen - anything like the love and admiration we feel for him on the page?) My overwhelming feeling coming out of FOTR (and yes, I know exactly what bothered me and how quickly I got over it after another viewing) was that it was in the hands of people who really could be trusted to give me more than I had ever imagined. That still may be true visually, but it's no longer true emotionally.
-
gotta agree billy on the point about ttt and Fotr. I think it
-
definitly the opening shots, falling backward with th camera over the mountains (if there is any way to travel apart from backwards, then i want to know about it. ;) i thnk i loved everything about the first half of the moie, but it's when we get to helms deep, which i agree with everyone it looks fantastic, but i'm not as keen on battles as on the other moments. The only fault i have with the movie is what has been left out (my geography is bad enough to not know what mos people are talking about when the say it's on the west side. how do you know? what am i missing?). i think i need a few more viewings to come to terms with all the plot points, but i don't think it will stand up to me watching the film everyday once the dvd is out, as fellowship did in september through to november.
The main part PJ missed the chance on was to include one line that may have made sam's speech fit a little better, with Frodo's reation from the book that they are in the worst part of the story now. Maybe i'll get that in Rotk, cos i'd ben waiting for that for the entire movie, and it wasn't there.
but i have to want to read something deeper into the movie, because otherwise i don't see the pont in the movie being viewed more than a few times. and if i want to defend this trilogy (ahem, sorry skyway, long film in three parts) from all the star wars fans around me, then i have to be prepared to look at it the same way they look at their trilogy. -
Elanor, I had no idea I had such power that my own disappointment could be affecting your rapturous enjoyment of TTT, though I understand your being sorry we aren't in the same place with it. Honestly, I only wish we were - and because I do respect your opinions, I was all the more unhappy when the film simply failed to work for me the way it has worked for you. I think I have said quite a bit about the parts I love - and I have also said or implied what would have improved it for me, which would have been less abrupt editing and a de-emphasis on the non-Tolkien inserted action scenes and flashbacks in favor of more thoughtful dialogue. And I can certainly fade away from these boards for a while if my input is too upsetting.... If I jumped in, it's because I didn't think the people who, like me, ADORED the first film and were disappointed in the second should be left alone out here. In fact, Bjarki and I held back awhile, hoping TTT would improve on subsequent viewings - and it did, up to a point. Read my posts. I am with you in every minute of Frodo (and Gollum, who is brilliant), in the Elves' arrival at Helm's Deep, in the Legolas/Gimli exchanges, the Merry-and-Pippin scenes, in the epic visuals, in the destruction of Isengard.... But it does not come together for me as FOTR did. I'm sorry. Really I am.
-
Jan 02, 2003 9:08:37 PM CST
Everyone is discussing the virtues of FOTR vs those of TTT...
by skyway moaters
...and while I have sympathy for the disappointment that I perceive in some Tailenders' posts, I just can't agree with many of the reasons cited. I swallowed FOTR whole. I think TTT is actually going to take MORE repeat viewings for me to be able to digest it all. Maybe I was more prepared for FOTR
-
Very sorry if we're spoiling things for you, lady. I didn't realise I was saying such nasty things! Your own experience of the movie is the correct one and please don't forget that. I'm green with envy to hear how much you were thrilled by TTT. The only reason we are complaining and commiserating with each other is that PJ & CO. set the bar impossibly high with FOTR. We are all very highly strung when it comes to these movies and any lapse or deviation jumps on us like cats on poor mices, precious, yes it does. Now please relax and listen to the unqualified nice things I say about TTT for a paragraph or so (in no particular order): the battle with the Balrog - utterly stunning! The kind of thing that's never been shown on film before - straight out of a William Blake poem: '"Fiery, the angels fell..." Faramir: he may not be quite the same as the book but he's still a damn fine captain of Gondor. He's got a commanding presence, he is grim (fighting a loosing war + severe parental pressure) and he thinks things over a lot and speaks only when neccessary. He does NOT take the ring for himself, but only sees its value in turning the tide of the war - which, let's not forget, is a very convincing and valid argument! Has anyone else apart from me been almost swayed by Boromir's passionate argument for using the ring in FOTR? Even though I know better it still seems to make sense! And look at all the riches we get from the visit to Osgiliath! Beautiful Byzantine ruins, the knights of Gondor (where can I get one of those suits of Armour? No woman will be able to resist!), and the vision of Frodo in front of the flying Nazgul (iconic LOTR moment #63) And here's a prediction: Faramir will make total sense in ROTK when we get to see his crotchety old dad.......Elanor, there are parts of Sam's speech which are really good - the bit about characters in stories is one of them....Really, there are so many good bits in the movie that I won't be able to list them all - like the majestic Charge Of The Light Brigade at the end - all shamelessly heroic stuff. And poor little Gollum! Give the man a cup of tea and a biscuit for the love of God! He's heartbreaking and you just want him to be happy and free of his addiction....Gandalf's funny moment when he tricks the doorman at Edoras, makes me chuckle each time. Wormtongue - as creepy and tricksy as you could want. Oh and Elanor - your question about the Arwen/Aragorn thing: you do realise I was just being silly with the whole pass-the-parcel routine? Just a bit of fun, I assure you. The ents - aren't they great? They had the potential to be a bit cheesy but in my three viewings there hasn't been a single laugh or snigger from the audience. They're funny-looking, yes, but quite intriguing too. And I love the way PJ makes Treebeard talk r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w-l-y just at the point when we are in the middle of the battle at Helm's Deep. We all know exactly how Merry+Pippn feel: get a MOVE on and DO something, you big talking trees! Whew! That's all I'm going to say for now. Let's not forget that LOTR has been considered unfilmable for the last forty years or so - and not without reason! Making three movies at once is a gigantic task and PJ is making as good a job of it as we could reasonably expect....Hope that's of some use to you, Elanor!
-
... gleeeful I am that his jocular view has graced this tailend TB. I grovel at thy feet good sir!... er, grumble grumble, self important old wall builder...
-
Tis a hard thing to live without access, my ducks. So, tell me, what the hell has been going on?
-
I love TTT, almost entirely unreservedly. I think the editing is a touch funky, I'm still whingeing like a little bitch over Un!Faramir, but otherwise, I'm quite satisfied, thank you. I thought the bit with Frodo on the tower ruled. I think Sam's speech to him is not to counsel Frodo, but to inspire him - in that sense, it does not matter about Frodo having been in an ecstatic trance at the time. I really really liked the ecstatic trance by the way - in fact the phrase "ecstatic trance" perfectly describes my own feelings at the time. Gollum was awesome. The Ents were awesome. Merry and Pippin were awesome - they felt much more useful, a more organic part of the movie than they did in FOTR, much as I loved them there. I can whine, slightly, about the prominence given to humans in the film, but I did know it would be a bit Hobbit!Lite, so I can deal, and it's not as if that stuff wasn't handled well, indeed exceptionally. And I liked Gimli's comic relief. It was necessary, considering the darkness of the subject matter. Gimli rules, anyway. Even Legolas betrayed a bit more of a personality this time out, which he didn't really in the last one, though that was still far more than he did in the books, to be fair. And that final shot of Mordor really did kind of crush the whole "Why couldn't Eagles have carried the Ring to the Crack of Doom" argument. So there. That's what I think. Actually, I think loads more things, but this is what I'm writing. For now. Roll on ROTK!
-
Jan 03, 2003 10:53:29 AM CST
Worth un-lurking for, or, "Ditto what elanor and Alice said"
by pallando blue
Thanks for getting that going, elanor, cause it's also been on my mind. I'd hate for the TE to revert into some sort of "TWC" or tokienonline.com kind of place. Go to that latter and read some of the negative T2T reviews there, almost as nausea-inducing as TWC attempting rewrites of "Mount Doom." Anyway, not a lot of time to post, but thought I'd put On Official Record my own review, then some other third parties'. First, my day-after e-mail (after having seen it twice the 18th) to a review-demanding friend who was forced by sick kids to wait until the weekend, and insisted he wasn't worried about spoilers. Note that it isn't 100% gush, either. So, unedited except to fit this paragraph-less format--and if he somehow reads this, I'm outed! ;) --my 12/19/2002 write-up, 1st draft, copied and pasted. [elanor, look for a reference to your review! and, just noticed, to mr beaks' up there! Also, this friend's the SW geek to my LOTR geek, although we're both close seconds behind each other in that regard, hence THAT comparison being safely broached :). Pardon all filthy language, I was exuberant.] ****** So, whaddaya wanna know? Covering some basics here, first: * Gollum. I don't know nuthin 'bout no CG, cause they hired the freakiest, most disturbing-looking little fellow to play that part. Seriously. That was a goddamn ACTOR up there, playing one helluva unique character. Frightening, disgusting, funny, pathetic, sad... Really, the "marvel" of seeing one amazing special effect wears off pretty damn quick, because you're watching the PERFORMANCE. And THAT is what has you marvelling. * Treebeard. Merry & Pippin's storyline, of the three it's the one most shortchanged IMO. Not badly DONE, just less on the screen, and less plot involved there. Less conversation. I thought Treebeard was great looking but some of the hobbits-on-his-shoulders shots were the only places the bluescreen broke down for me a little. Hey, exception that proves the rule. As for CG quality, I thought it was fantastic (sound effects went a long way toward giving weight to the image). Some of the other Ents' designs were also the only other place where... I may have not made the same choices, let's say. BUT I keep wondering if that may have been more intentional than I first thought, because the PAYOFF at the end of the movie.... Whatever the M&P thread may have been lacking in comparison to the other storylines, the Sack of Isengard pretty much steals the fucking show. Yep, even Helm's Deep. Well, as far as spectacle goes, because humanoids fighting on a large scale, sure, there's precedent all over the place, but never in my life did I ever reeeeally think I'd be watching Ents sack Isengard. * ...But Helm's Deep is FUCKING INCREDIBLE! And it goes ON and ON! It starts about 45 minutes or so before the END of the movie, and so there lay much of the confusion. It's intercut some with the other threads, and the film closes elsewhere, so it's not just 45 minutes straight carnage. But MAN is it a long battle! SUPERBLY paced. From the approach of the baddies, to the first drops of rain, to the tense quiet before the storm... and "So it begins." Just turn off the logic side of your brain, the analytical lobe that unconsciously/automatically seeks out the seams in the effects. Otherwise it'll blow out on its own, doing possibly serious cranial damage. You're not seeing CG, or miniatures, or MASSIVE, or whatever. You are seeing a BATTLE. * The geography is MASTERFULLY laid out beforehand without being obvious; the structure, pace, and timing throughout the battle, all of the what's-happening-where-and-when matters that let you follow the big picture, all of that is handled perfectly. You always have a sense of where everyone is, what's going on and WHY. This is NOT just another Bronze Age confusion of extras running arund and yelling at each other, mud and blood flying willy nilly. These are two clashing military forces, acting accordingly. Take Gladiator: perhaps the coolest part of the entire film was the Romans vs. Barbarians at the very beginning. But after the first couple of minutes... impossible to follow. At Helm's Deep you never lose the sense of the large scale battle and tactics because of the close-at-hand action, NOR are the characters, hard action, and visceral ground-level combat-photography that was so great in FOTR lost sight of in deference to the Epic Shots. It's all so well balanced. * It is, quite simply, one hell of a thing to watch. * But I don't want to build you up too much, oversell your expectations. :) * Faramir. The Merry/Pippin storyline may have gotten the short end of the three, but I think Faramir got the most shortchanged as far as his role goes. Not that his character is really so far off from the book, not at all the more I think about it. He just, to put it quantitatively, has the least lines, it feels like. The least screen time! Maybe he got the worst of the edits, and there'll be more in the (yes, it's coming!) SEV DVD. He doesn't show until, I'd say, almost halfway through the movie (though how he and his men enter... YOWZA!) and the second half of the movie is more weighted to the Rohan/HD/Treebeard stories. SO, I'd say the biggest difference with him in T2T is not that he's a different character, it's that his character is so much more minor than he is the novel. The FOTR-equivalent would be, he got Galadriel-ed (but not in the Ring-temptation scene sense, just screentime vs. page-time sense). BUT I can see that changing quite a bit in ROTK. His last line definitely will have some repercussions.... * Now then, brings me kinda to the caveat: HOW TO WATCH THE MOVIE ;) * Don't go into it expecting, as much, the adaptation of the book The Two Towers. Instead, go into it as seeing the next part of the movie that started last year. Make sense at all? 'Cause * 1) It deviates VERY much from the book. As in, invented scenes and dialogue, not just abridged and omitted ones. Can be jarring the first time, just like FOTR was. Only this time it's done much moreso! You really gotta leave the book outside when you walk into the theater. Because it's one hell of a MOVIE, but it's not Tolkien's Two Towers. Now, that might sound like a knock, like bad news. But it ain't. What needs to be covered is covered, the characters all behave how one would expect them to behave if Tolkien had written THESE scenes as opposed to THOSE. Like that one person said in her review, they all end up where you expect them to end up, it's just as if they found a different route to get there. * 2a) It's the bridge, the middle child, the Part 2 of the 3-parter. More than anything, it stands up the weakest as a stand-alone film. But no more than the 2nd book (as published) would be satisfying if read by itself. That's cause it's all really one book, and these maniacs really made a 9-10 hour movie. There's no "beginning" and no "ending" in the normal sense--it ends on more of a treacherous-feeling "cliffhanger" than even FOTR did. The titles come up, and it kickstarts into high gear like a motherfucker--man you've got no idea the sights you'll see in the first 5 minutes--and then doesn't let up until you realize, hold on, it's... it's OVER?!? It doesn't have the closure that ROTK will have--the three storylines are STILL 3 threads of the fellowship at the end, ya know--but it doesn't have the humble origins of FOTR to anchor it. Not that there's no change or progression--the peril is larger yet the focus is tighter, if you get me. But it's the ACTION after the INTRODUCTION but before the CLIMAX. It's Act II. * Also. 2b) There's a period right smack in the center of the film (I think--never looked at my watch!) where the pace slows down dramatically, that's potentially the most jarring for the unexpecting. We revisit the Elves briefly, have the Aragorn/Arwen dilemma laid out further through some concurrent action as well as flashback and even--ballsy move IMO--flash-forward. Plus we finally get Elrond's position on the matter (he ain't for it), and Galadriel lays out a slightly the-story-so-far monologue in a kind of implied communication with (the increasingly disgruntled with humans) Elrond. Trying to track it all--and some natural impatience with the unexpected, cause we're still mentally juggling 3 other exciting storylines--pulled me out of the film a little bit the first time, but on second viewing it came across as more natural. Especially when I see it as being really smack in the middle of the middle movie--it's the middle of the Big Movie in that way, and that's a role it fits well I think. In the 9-10-hour-movie scheme, that's probably a good point in time to let the audience take a deep breath before throwing them in the deep end. And anything with more sheer-gowned pointy-eared Liv talking contralto Elvish is Good Vittles. :) * 2c.) Unlike Empire (the most obvious comparison structure/theme-wise) it isn't a true sequel or (more accurately I guess) the "next episode." It's simply... further along in the same Large Story, and the scope is widening as the story grows. So, in that sense Empire is still well-enthroned as The Greatest Geek Sequel of all time. No sweat :) Because even with its cliffhangers ESB feels like its own story, its own film. You know? Maybe because the 3 different directors over 7-8 years for Eps 4,5,6, vs. one all over LOTR in the span of one year-and-a-half marathon shoot--I dunno. Also, obviously no "Frodo--I am your father!!" moment ;) * Man am I rambling. If you can't tell, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. :) * Anyway, I'd say pop FOTR in the DVD player and have THAT fresh in your head as you go into T2T. (And theatrical release is fine I'd say. There's nothing in the SEV that you "need" to see before T2T, except maybe a direct reference to the usefulness of their new elf cloaks. Come in handy they do!) ...Don't try to "anticipate" Towers as you watch, even when things start to seem familiar. But it does end up so that if PJ had a billion dollars and 7 more hours he could now do the rest of the tale verbatim from the book. :) * Grima: oily obsequeous poisonous perfection. * Gimli: Takes over as the major comic relief. But man it never gets old. Didn't for me. Even if 90% of his dialogue is comedy, it delivers. Well-written and performed--and I mean, really fucking funny!--and never distracting from or intrusive to the action. Comic RELIEF not comic GROAN. Audience reacted well to all of it, and there's one bit... Won't ruin it, but holy god I'm gonna laugh out loud every time, no matter how many times I see the movie. ...Works 'cause, the thing is, and most importantly, you never lose your respect for Gimli. Cause, the thing is, and most importantly, he is one tough fucking ass kicker. Like I heard someone say, dropping him into a group of orcs is the equivalent of lobbing a grenade in there. Shorty's a stone cold KILLAH! * Okay, I almost got busted by The Man just now, must wrap up. Overall impressions as the credits scrolled: * "No! Keep going! Don't stop NOW for gods sake!" * "Must see again. Must see agin. Must see again." * "Peter Jackson is one fucking insane genius and he has gathered all of the world's insane geniuses about him to do his bidding (weird that they're almost all Kiwis)." * "You know, I don't think I trust that Smeagol fellow." ;) * "Holy shit--what the hell is it going to be like to finally see all three movies at one sitting... HOLY SHIT" * Yeah, okay, sum this all up in 2 words. Holy shit. :) C
-
Here's another long'un, two more opinions. First, my friend's reply, to the above, on Monday the 23rd (sorry, pal! But you didn't copyright it!). **** Yes YES! Woohoo! * FINALLY saw it yesterday. I even had to miss the second half of the Redskin game, the first decent game they've played in weeks. But such are the sacrifices I must make to retain my standing of Geek of The First Order. :) * I'm not sure what I could say to elaborate on your review. Just that you were spot-on. Gollum was
amazing. Helm's Deep was amazing. The shot of Gandalf and the Riddermark riding over the hill, while formulaic "here come's the cavalry" fare, STILL gave
me chills. It was just done so darn well. * Treebeard and the Ents didn't bug me at all. I thought they was pretty well done. The pared down dialogue
there was very necessary. * The changes in the Frodo/Sam adventure weren't too terrible. As I said before, I was a little bummed about Faramir, but I can get over that. :) * And whoever plays Eowyn is quite the hottie. I'd take her over Liv any day, although the non-aging thing
would definately have to be factored in. :) I can't wait to see her skewer the Nazgul. * Great Movie. I'm buying all the editions they make of
this one. :) ******** Me again. Now, here's some of an e-mail I sent Miami Mofo last week. For reference, Pop's 67 and a Guy Movie Afficianado across the board, who can enjoy the stupid popcorn pleasures of "XXX," discuss the reasons "Godfather III" was a betrayal of I's and especially II's intentions, took me to see SW 7 times when I was 7 and waited in line 4 hours with me to see ESB opening night, and accidentally took me to see "Atlantic City" when I was 9, not knowing it was R and so corrupting forever my innocent little mind with graphic nudity and violence. :) [Whenever Sarandon was lemon-bathing herself, he'd mutter "Oh Jesus," and lean over to whisper "Cover your eyes"--though he never did so himself, and we didn't leave early. Parking garage stabbing, my first on-screen murder! Do you remember yours? :)] Lest he come across as neanderthal, I should mention his thing for Sandra Bullock, and that Mom never really has to twist his arm too hard to get him out to the "chick flicks" (she let's him see "his flying-body-parts movies" with his golf buddies), which, if they're any good, he'll recommend. All of which is to say, here's a completely different perspective than I've found Online: ***** Took my Dad to see T2T last week (my 4th trip, and yep, better each time), and he was suitably blown away. I was surprised, actually, that he was more looking forward to seeing that than Gangs of New York! Which is more up his alley, historically. He even, get this, watched the second half of the FOTR SEV beforehand that day, just so he'd be up to speed again. The opening scene stunned him into an uncharacteristic gape-mouthed (when I peeked over) silence, followed by a "Jesus..." when the Two Towers title card finally popped up. Heh heh, I thought. When Gollum showed up he was positively cackling, loved that "crazy little monster." When he saw the trolls opening the Gate, he let out an audible "HO-[mutter-level] ly..." I was wondering if he'd have any patience for the Treebeard segments, or if they'd be too "childish" for him, but he chuckled warmly at the right places. And during the Entmoot he leaned over and said, "That's neat and really well done... but [and he was laughing a little at the idea] how the hell are trees going to help with that war?" I just mumbled something with a wry smirk and a "just you wait" point at the screen. Later, the trashing of Isengard illicited another "HO--ly" ...And Helm's Deep, needless to say, blew his damn socks off! When The White Rider appeared on the hilltop, he actually said out loud, "Gandalf!" and during the charge down the slope, he came down with what I think Moriarty once described as "a bad case of the holy shits." * He definitely thought it was better than the first one "Which was still pretty cool, man." :) He's making my mom rent FOTR this week and then he's taking her with him to see Towers again--and he almost NEVER sees a movie twice in the theaters. Not bad, PJ, not too shabby! * PS: He's never read the book and probably never will. So, I feel no need to disabuse him of the notion--his guesswork/assumptions, certainly not my suggestion--that Smeagol does indeed "come back" to "being good" in the end. He heh heh. Oooooh, man, 12 more months?!? ****** I'll add here, that while he didn't so much with the first one, this time he's since mentioned twice over the phone his recommending LOTR to his cronies, and his cronies' positive reactions. And believe me, these folx ain't Tolkienites! -
and Happy Birthday, JRRT!!! 'Thankee' indeed for the support back there MorGy. I really do think that TTT is perfect, excepting the changes to Faramir of course. I can't abide THOSE changes and don't agree they enhance the movie in any way. There, it's out of my system now. Enough harping on the negatives. I loved Gollum, the Ents, the battle of Helms Deep (although Anduril being present would have RULED!!!) the destruction of Isengard, Gandalf's battle with the Balrog and the scenes at Meduseld. I would have liked to seen Saruman overthrown at the end, but oh well. We don't seem to be able to have everything on screen... Cheers.
-
Jan 03, 2003 11:40:28 AM CST
...And last of me trilogy, an opinion that might actually matter
by pallando blue
Some of you might remember my Insider Pen Pal in NZ, welp, it'd been a couple months so I figured I'd try to reestablish contact, hopefully get another conversation going. What better way than a heartfelt Congrats and Thanks to all for T2T, and the SEV material? So, here's his brief response, the applicable to here bit anyways (suck up real nice and I may share more, but not on a TB ;)--you might be surprised at how familiar it sounds: *** "Yes, I think everyone has survived 2 Towers. It was a close thing. A year between movies may seem like a long time, but ... some signs of the wobbles in the finished film, I think, although I thought much more of it on 2nd viewing, which is a good sign. PJ says number 3 will be biggest and best, and I believe him. Number 2 was always going to be the hardest, logistically, and in terms of the dramatic content - 3 hours of middle act, with all characters caught in midstream, and plot lines unresolved ... nightmare! ...." [His ellipses, not mine, no edits on that paragraph.] ****** HAPPY BIRTHDAY PROFESSOR!! Hey, morG, open up the damn Club already, willya!? It's time to PARTY! I do hope you gathered a full Gross of guests! (I'm sure someone somewhere's turning 33 today.) Hopefully by Monday the hangover'll have worn off.... Namarie til then, mellyn!
-
I have but one complaint and that is the movie should have been longer. A minute more with Faramir, a few minutes more with Elrond and a bunch of minutes with the ents...wasn't Sean Bean suppose to be in this one. The movie is just a little rough around the edges and I think I can see it after comparing FOTR with the extended version. I hope New Line will give PJ that much more time for ROTK. Not asking for hours just a few minutes. Please... new line. Watching the extended version on a tele just isn't the same as the big screen. Please with sugar. Actually when ROTK comes out in less than 50 weeks they better also have another one the next year. Sam and Rosie visit the Tooks. Hell I was up skiing this weekend and people on the bus talked the whole way twenty minutes about The Two Towers.. It is good to finally no longer be a closet tolkien geek.
-
I had an e-mail last night from an old friend. We used to work at the newspaper together in St. Paul; we were news clerks in different departments, had apartments in the same building... and used to say our lives would make a good sitcom. He's a longtime movie buff (in fact, we bonded over our mutual love of film scores) so I was very disappointed when FOTR left him indifferent. No more. A week or two ago, he said he was using some Christmas money to get the FOTR SEV and both scores, and was planning on seeing TTT after he had watched the SEV. He reported back that he REALLY liked it and wanted to go again. Last night he announced that he had sat through it twice back-to-back(!) and said "I am now one of you!" And he hasn't even read the books (though he is now planning to). I thought the TTT score would hook him in, if nothing else did. (He loves the hobbits.) Our ranks do grow....
-
And my interpretation was a three-and-a-half hour movie (followed by the four-hour SEV?). Seems as if it will have to be that long, with events from TTT already crowded into it, and not just Shelob. In the meantime, however, I want the four-hour TTT SEV (the one that will make me truly happy). I also want a poster of Frodo and the Nazgul. Oh, it's going to be good to live across the street from Comic-Con this year. And I have a four-day pass.
-
Xyzan: okay, now you've lost me. What is this about Gimli knowing Elvish? *As for Legolas bowing, yes I did spot that, but just didn't feel like it was worth a particular mention. Actually, I just watched the FOTR extras this morning, and in every shot of Gandalf, he's either by himself or has Legolas walking a foot behind him (and once holding his arm). Man, the drunken theories continue. ***And on that note, Billy Budd, well, I don't necessarily believe this is the case in all seriousness, but you should hear the stuff that comes out of me and my Aragorn-obsessed roommate when watching the SEV at 3 a.m. Honestly, you put together two partied-out fag hags and FOTR, and you end up with endless double entendre giggles about Frodo/Sam, Frodo/Gandalf, Legolas/Gandalf, Legolas/Gimli (well, honestly, the dwarves are a mostly male society where the women even tend to wear beards to fit in... sheesh), Legolas/Aragorn (Legolas does seem very adamant about standing up for Aragorn during the Council of Elrond. "This is no mere Ranger..."), Boromir/Aragorn, Haldir/Aragorn, Haldir/Celeborn, Gandalf/Saruman etc. Not to mention the obligatory Aragorn/Arwen "blade of Westernesse" jokes. Aah, the magic of no sleep and partying on the cinematic experience. ***Elanor: yep. Well, you can't miss Theoden's Hammerhand reference. I gotta admit, I laughed when I noticed the credit for "hammerhands". It's like a little hidden joke. ***Pallando: well, I'm actually desperately clinging on to the idea that Faramir is TTT's Galadriel. That way, I could hope for vast improvement in the characterisation in the SEV DVD. I mean, there's some of the Faramir we all know and love in the movie Faramir (the "peering into the soul" looks he gives everyone he talks to etc.), but he comes off kind of one-dimensional, and in a threatening direction. It was exactly the same with Galadriel in FOTR. They showed a part of her character (the intimidating part), but not her good and gentle, humorous side. I'm hoping the SEV of TTT will do for Faramir what the FOTR did for Galadriel: show the other, kinder and gentler side of the character.
-
and of course, it's better every time. So much to take in, so much beauty. And I'm finding that it's just as or more emotionally devastating as FOTR. I found myself with tears rolling down my cheeks throughout the movie. Elijah is not being given his due. In my mind he is the glue holding this thing together, despite having less screen time and fewer lines in this one. Theoden King strapping on his armor, chanting the poetry; God, it gives me chills. My daughter (and I) have a question, though. In the Arwen/Aragorn dream sequence when he "tries to break up with her" (as my daughter puts it), was that something that really happened? I know it didn't it the book, but was it a flashback to something that happened prior to the Fellowship's leaving Rivendell?
-
yes, it's apparently what happened in Rivendell. The first talk between Arwen and Aragorn in the morning is apparently the morning after their meeting on the bridge and happens just prior to Aragorn going to the Council of Elrond. The later talk with Elrond is a continuation of the discussion they have on Aragorn's mother's grave in the Extended edition of the movie. The "giving the Evenstar back" scene with Aragorn and Arwen after that is from that same morning, the morning the fellowship is leaving Rivendell, some time before the scenes seen in FOTR as the fellowship take off and Aragorn and Arwen look at each other sadly as he leaves.
-
Yes, that explains the sad looks at their parting. Another scene I was thrilled and surprised to see was Arwen wandering through the trees (of Lothlorien in the appendice) after Aragorn's death. That's haunted me since I first read it. Thanks, PJ and Co., for including that scene.
-
Jan 03, 2003 5:05:06 PM CST
"ROTK as long as it needs to be" an ecouraging thought indeed...
by skyway moaters
...I mean just think of all the stuff they have to cram into the "finale". Short list: Imlad Morgul, Shelob's Lair, The Choices of Master Samwise, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, Flotsom and Jetsam, The Breaking of Curunir's staff, and if the rumours be true the dreaded "Istar Kabob", Aragorn wresting the Orthanc stone from Sauron's control scaring the bujeezus out of old Gorthaur in the process, Mithrandir and Pippin's mad dash to Minas Tirith, (I wonder if a certain obtuse old wall builder will make an appearance hmmm(?)) The Ride of the Rohirrim, Ghan-Buri-Ghan, The Siege of Gondor, The Paths of the Dead, The Corsairs of Umbar, The Pyre of Denethor, The Battle of the Pellenor, icluding the Halfling/Warrior Princess-Nazgul Smackdown, The Houses Of Healing/"The Steward and the Shield-Maiden", The Black Gate Opens/Mouth of Sauron, The Land Of Shadow, The Cracks of Doom/Slinker and Stinker take a Lava Bath with their Precioussss, Mithrandir and Gwaihir rescue the The nine fingered wonder and his gardener, The Field of Cormallen, The Crowning of the King, The Marriage of Arwen & Aragorn, Homeward Bound, The Havens, The End of the Third Age... WHEW! Talk about your information overload! Gotta give Pj& Co the benefit of the doubt though considering their track record so far... 11&2/3rd FRIGGIN MONTHS TO GO. Arg.
-
...sent you e-mail explaining the whole Skyway/Fister conundrum. Take a look at Fister's post of Skyway's TTT "review" on both Harry's and Moriarty's TTT review TBs for a proper "Riddley Speak" explanation iffen ye has a mind to do so... Trubba Not Mellyn.
-
Jan 03, 2003 5:34:49 PM CST
Oh what the hell, "third time's the charm" maybe. Probably only
by skyway moaters
... Since you asked: ***
My names Fister Crunchman. Im one of the hevvys what roads with the Howe Fents crowd and Im frendy with SM{;-0 . He askit me to tel his review of this Two Towers pitcher thing what you all ben moaning and blubbering over. Hes done roadit out on what dyer callit? A sabaticool. Poor little bloak. He jus kep mummeling an hispering an moaning and carrying on about some pontsing littl barsets over this way what he names trolls who ben showing and making a bunch-o-cowshit conexxions an about some thing which he callit tatow. He shown it to me. Nasty pink and grean slimey thing with poison fairly dripping offen it. And what a pong! Perwel knocks you down! It stinks bad! lemme tel you. I said -
..regretfully, I don't think Pippin will get his peep at the Palantir, as the whole "Frodo raptured by the Nazgul" sequence has already established the "Sauron thinks Gondor has it" plot. Which by extension means that Pj&Co will have to 'invent' some other reason for Gandalf's taking him along to Minas Tirith on Shadowfax. Anyone got any theories on how they might keep Peragrin's little "Mignight Peep" in? Hope I'm wrong and they do figure a way to keep it...
-
meant to say he appears to understand elivsh more in this movie. I'm sure he replies to something either aragorn or legolas says in elvish just before the battle of helms deep. maybe i imagined it, but it wa still great. still trying to get over the look in Frodo's eyes with the lines 'they're coming'
-
Yes, a wonderful moment. Itching for the freeze-frame.... And while we're on the subject, does anyone read lips enough to know exactly what Sam is saying to him when Frodo can no longer hear his voice?
-
when Legolas gets on the horse. when pj pans the camera back for the first time on the fell beast. when the horse and the warg collide in the charge. one of eomer's horsemen using a bow. the whole gollum smeagol debate. the look on the orc's faces when one of there guys was wrongly done in by an arrow, and last but not least and my all time favorite scene replacing the coolest moth ever has got to be when the frodo is standing in front of the nazgul about to put the ring on.
-
before i forget or the clock runs out, happy birthday Tolkein. I wanna see the film agan!
-
Yes, Frodo about to put on the Ring in front of the Nazgul goes over the top and breaks the swoon-o-meter.
-
...the whole free fall Gandalf vs Balrog battle. This sequence had me gripping my seat arms to the white knuckle stage, while wide mouthedly whispering OH MY GOD! The choral crescendo as they fall through the ceiling of the cavern heading for splashdown evoked scenes from Genesis and Revelations not to mention various William Blake passages. *** Gandalf's yell just prior to crashing into the Uruk picket line had me grinning like a drooling imbecil! Shades of Michael and Gideon! *** That's it, I canna' stand it any longer!: Viewing #6 first thing tomorrow! *** Anyone see the South Park LOTR "parody"? I'm starting to feel like Butters whining for his precious movie! Show it to us again, pleeeeze precioussss...
-
...what was I a thinkin'?! Happy Elenventy First dear professor! "Amin harmuva onalle e' cormamin"! - "I shall treasure your gift in my heart"! Not that JRRT would need the translation mind you, that's just for the re-o-this here crowd...
-
...friggin 'fat fingers'...
-
Jan 03, 2003 7:52:24 PM CST
Don't know about that Miami, maybe a few too many "goddamits"...
by skyway moaters
... in that South Park episode, not to mention Stan's Dad's graphic explanation of 69 sex! Don't get me started: Cartman's wizard warding of the "dragon cars" with his staff: "Blblblblblblb!" Token's. "I dont know, I don't want to know, and I'm not playing anymore". Jimmy's "NO you friggin mmmorons! Video STORE!!!" *** Got to STOP this!... before my ass really does get laughed off...
-
We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you this special News Alert! Please be on the lookout for an unsavory Gondorian wall builder currently going by the name of Ingold. This man is wanted for grilling (pun intended) in regards to suspicious terrorist threats against the wildly popular Club Angband. This man is considered to be armed with masonry tools and is subject to delusions of grandeur. Any information leading the apprehension of this criminal will be suitably rewarded with an Authorized CAP (Club Angband Pass). Thank you for your attention and Good Night!
-
... not exactly a ROTFL moment, more of a UYBWC - "under your breath wicked chuckle" moment, I would say, (considering how close to home you actually hit). We SHOULD be vigiliant! Even when it comes to defending edifices possessing the somehwat, er, questionable, socially redeeming qualities of a place like um, 'Club Angband'...er, considering the climate in the 'good ol' US of A at present; what with the whole Homeland Impurity , er, SECURITY agenda, and anti-pharmacist, er, TERRORIST, um... mission, quest, thingy, and what not... *** BTW JD, check your e-mail dear, there may be a problem with "the book"...
-
Well howdy. I just wanted to talk about some bits of the movie I really loved. The opening, with that awesome shot of the mountain that just appears so swiftly in the camera... well, the whole damn thing, actually. Especially the "fiery the angels fell" bit. That's indecently cool. I also loved Aragorn shoving open the doors iconically (Swoon), all of the Merry and Pippin conversations (especially the one about the Shire burning), and I have ginormous love for the Desctruction of Isengard. Vast affection also goes out to Legolas and Gimli on the walls "Should I describe it to you..." and for some reason, the fact that they are clearly mad to kill orcs and are having a weird kind of fun is actually desperately effective. It really made me warm to Legolas. Next, orc dialogue! Always at home for orc dialogue! Any scene with Gollum in it also rules from on high and chastises other CGI character creations with whips of flame. And top of the charts, with a bullet, is Frodo facing off against the Nazgul. Holy shit - divida of this, come to mama. I expect to be swooning over this far into the forseeable future. Bits I didn't like - whatever weird backtracking thing is going on with Aragorn and Arwen's story (though I loved her whole mourning section) and, I must reiterate, Un!Faramir. Boromir actually comes over as more sympathetic and helpful though conflicted, and that's *got* to be wrong.
-
The exorcism thing. I love the whole bit of Gandalf walking forward in his regal wizardly way while what looks like a spectacularly ugly barroom fight is going on all around him. It's cool. I also like the transformation of Theoden. I have some issues with Saruman seeing Gandalf the White this early though. I think that should have been saved till their confrontation later on. Oh, and there better be a confrontation later on. Just so you know.
-
Complete, unqualified approval of your last two posts. You may put me down for every word.
-
check your email. I replied last night to your yahoo account. *** Alice - ditto on the Aragorn sweeping open the doors scene. Actually, anytime he is doing the alpha male bit. Bah, and I swore that I wouldn't become a swooner in a public forum. Well, I suppose that thousands of years of genetic memory IS hard to overcome. *** I do feel a tad left out here, tho. I've only seen TTT once (hangs head in shame & remorse to admit this amongst such devoted fans). Once is definitely NOT enough to be able to savor each nuance. FotR had all the wonder & magic of seeing ME for the first time and that's a high standard to surpass. It made me feel young and innocent. TTT was still ME, but the world was changing. I felt it in the air. Push was coming to shove and the war was seriously heating up. I felt like a frightened hobbit lost in the great & terrible world (That sounds like criticism, but it's not, for that's exactly how I feel when reading the books). I must say, tho, the humor was a welcomed relief and I'm grateful that PJ included it. *Sigh* I really need to get out more! I don't know how you folks find the time. What with working full time, keeping up with 3 homes (ours, my parents, and my disabled sister-in-laws - that's allot o' yard work and snow removal), supervising the aforementioned sister-in-law (at the age of 37 I inherited a 44 year old with the sense of a tweenager - mom & dad had always bailed her out of difficulty and I'm not too comfortable in that role). Ack! No more whining. I promise. *** TTFN, dear tailenders, for I'm off the Club to restock & cleanup after the big birthday bash!
-
Years ago, if I had been told about the movies to be made, I would have bet that I'd be right in the middle of all this analysis & critique. Now that it's here, I find myself outside the circle watching the debate, with no real desire to join in. Over decades, during my pre-internet days, I discussed Tolkien's works with others, but never personally knew anybody with as much interest and passion regarding Tolkien as I had, and I don't recall anyone having a negative opinion. I own many books about the works - reviews, essays & such - but published books are much "safer" to read than many of the posts on this tb, which naturally focus more on the movies vs the books. I guess I'm late in waking up to the fact that movie reviews can be much more harsh, negative and insulting than published reviews of a respected author's collected works. Duh, if someone took the time to write the book, he/she must share many of the positive feelings I have, and they are likely to discuss the works with a high degree of respect, even when making criticisms. The point I'm poorly making is this: any other topic, book, movie, philosphy whatever that is of interest to me, ok, I'll nit-pick it to death with other interested folks. I now realize that Tolkien's works, and the movies by extension, are something that I want to associate with my heart & feelings. Bash me if you want, but it's magical to me, and I want it to stay that way. The depiction of Middle Earth, be it on page or screen or cd or whatever, is the ONE thing in my life that I want to keep as far from the real world as possible. Our modern culture seems to have such a "me me me first" mentality, that it's not only our RIGHT to be heard, it's our OBLIGATION to be as direct and explicit and rude as we feel we need to be to get our point across. I've read and scanned many of these posts, and I think someone expressed some distress about all the negativity, and then wham, here comes more negativity for having the nerve to say THAT. I just don't think I'm the only person to feel this way. Yes, I understand that books and movies are different. Yes, I understand that film making is an art, and is subject to intense scrutiny. Ok with me. I even realize that Tolkien's works are not perfect. I'm am just realizing that this is one movie that I don't want to dissect and examine under a microscope. No, I don't like everything about it. Some of the changes bothered me, but overall, it was a magical experience, & I'm grateful that the movies were made by people who so obviously loved and respected the concept. Therefore, I am going to incorporate the movies into my circle of Middle Earth, and enjoy the enchantment of them whenever I want to escape. Ok, I'm in denial, I'm turning a blind eye to the flaws, I don't care. This is not to say that I don't respect any of the opinions here, to the contrary. I am struck by the insight shown, and intrigued by many of the interpretations. I am just definitely being a wuss here, because 1) I won't post my own thoughts & interpretations (specific to the movies) because I don't want the resulting & insulting backlash, & 2) I gloss over posts that are harsh, and read the ones that relect appreciate of the magic. And before anybody feels the need to beat the following into my head, let me assure you that I KNOW this site is fundamentally concerned with reviewing movies, and I KNOW that if I don't like something, I don't have to read it. I also KNOW that this tb is a place to express opinions, and I am humbly expressing mine. ****My first post was on the other board, before everyone moved to Beaks, and I am still curious if anybody else had crying babies in the audience on opening day****
-
... the "synchronized time-lines" of my various e-mail account's and TB posts obviously, aren't... er, trubba not ya'll
-
interesting point about the nazgul, and i'm voting for one of the other nazgul. got the impression that the first time they see the 'wraiths! Wraiths on wings', it's the witch king, and Frodo's shoulder goes barmey! that didn't happen on the wall, so i don't think it was the witch king.
-
... during my second viewing, (the first left me in a kind of daze so I went again a mere 48 hours later), there was a little boy (7 to 9 years of age I'd estimate) sitting just behind me in a stadium seating style theatre; so that it sounded like he was about an inch from my right ear, who simply WOULD NOT shut up! I swear to god he talked through nearly every single second of the film despite repeated polite shushings from me, the gentleman immediately to my left, and the young lady immediately to my right. Not to mention repeated admonitions from his own mother, immediately to the child's left. To make it worse, they weren't even intelligent questions or comments, even for a 7 year old. An example of this inane play-by-play follows: "Is he dying? (first [audibly] uttered during the opening shot of Sam and Frodo under the title card), What's going on? Who's that? Is HE dying? Is SHE dying? What are they doing now? (Fervent whisper by mother interjected.)Why did he do that? Where are they going? Are THEY dying? Is that a real horse? Why are they doing that? (More fervent mother whisperings.) Is the horse dead? Are those trees dying? Why are they going there? Who is THAT? Are those real dogs? Is IT dying?"... and anon. AAAGGGHHH! I was ready to stick knitting needles in my ears by the end! The only times it wasn't a nearly infuriating distraction was when the volume level of the soundtrack rose to a sufficient level as to effectively drown the little bastard out! Now my family are big film fans, and we have had a standing rule, laid down to children from the time that they become capable of communicating in complete sentences, about talking in the cinema: "If I have to tell you to shut-up more than twice, we're outta there". Cut and dried, it's simply regarded to be good manners. In the spirit of "good manners" as well, I make it a practice to never confront a parent about their children's negative public behavior, regardless of how awful or annoying said behavior might be. On this occasion however, my level of frustration had risen to such a level, feeling like my second screening had been largely wasted, as to make it nearly impossible to not say something as soon as the end credits rolled. I did not confront the child, he didn't know any better, I turned to the mother and said: "Madame, I would be remiss if I did not express my heartfelt gratitude for enhancing my enjoyment of this film by allowing your child to speak through nearly every single minute of it! Thank you VERY much, fine job of parenting I must say..." Everyone that had been within earshot of the child's running deluge of questions fell out laughing. The rest of the folks in my actual seating row for several places in each direction actually gave out with kind of a little cheer: "Yeahayy"! The poor woman tried to interject with a smiling "I did the best I could" just after the "Madame I would be remiss" part, but I had a head of steam up and didn't even pause for breath. Her smile turned to open mouthed disbelief, I turned on my heel and exited the theatre, feeling terrible for taking the poor woman to task. Well, I felt bad for a good 10 seconds anyway; you have to teach kids how to behave in public, they don't just "pick it up on their own" ...
-
Clipyhed, I've been absent from these talkbacks for a while but.......your post is one of the nicest I've read on this site. So free of hate, so free of grudges and nit-picking (I can be a nit-picker myself sometimes). You rule, clipyhed. These movies are for you: enjoy them, you deserve it. Here's one (occasional) talkbacker who won't shoot you down in flames.........Alice: I have a strong suspicion that we will not be seeing the Voice Of Saruman chapter (with the breaking of the staff etc). No, I think that Gandalf's exorcism of Theoden - where he totally over-rules Saruman - is the closest we'll get to this. A pity, because Saruman's speech from the window of Orthanc is possibly my favorite moment in the book - an example of oration to rival that of Marc Anthony in 'Julius Caeser'(sigh). But not cinematic enough for PJ's vision, I think. I now realise that PJ favours action over dialogue. Similarly, Elanor: I have a feeling that the lines you are quoting about Theoden being 'very polite', do not apply to PJ's Theoden - even after his exorcism he comes across as wayward and a bit cantankerous. I can't see him being chatty and familiar with a couple of hobbits...
-
Jan 04, 2003 9:31:44 PM CST
Oh, Lordy, the TB's have been scrambled - I'll post this a secon
by billy budd
Clipyhed, I've been absent from these talkbacks for a while but.......your post is one of the nicest I've read on this site. So free of hate, so free of grudges and nit-picking (I can be a nit-picker myself sometimes). You rule, clipyhed. These movies are for you: enjoy them, you deserve it. Here's one (occasional) talkbacker who won't shoot you down in flames.........Alice: I have a strong suspicion that we will not be seeing the Voice Of Saruman chapter (with the breaking of the staff etc). No, I think that Gandalf's exorcism of Theoden - where he totally over-rules Saruman - is the closest we'll get to this. A pity, because Saruman's speech from the window of Orthanc is possibly my favorite moment in the book - an example of oration to rival that of Marc Anthony in 'Julius Caeser'(sigh). But not cinematic enough for PJ's vision, I think. I now realise that PJ favours action over dialogue. Similarly, Elanor: I have a feeling that the lines you are quoting about Theoden being 'very polite', do not apply to PJ's Theoden - even after his exorcism he comes across as wayward and a bit cantankerous. I can't see him being chatty and familiar with a couple of hobbits...
-
I have a few questions to ask anyone who can help. Do all elvish blades glow blue? I was reading those 101 observations they hve over at ign.com, and it was mentioned. Also, i've decided i love this film a lot, and i'm getting annoyed at all the people who criticse it only for being an adaption, thinking it should all be word for word. Ag lastly, to finish off this slep deprived rnt, when wormtongue cries, what's everyone else's view on this? So many reviews have been saying they love the bit where wometongue cries at the sight of Saruman's army! Weren't they listening to the dialogue?!? This is exactly the point in saruman's speech where he says that no one in rohan will be left alive. INCLUDING EOWYN! The one person in ME that wormtongue cares for, maybe in sick, twisted, warped little evil way, and he's got no chance of getting her, but i got the impressio that he ws crying because he knew she would die, not at thee sight of the army. This even gave me sympathy for him (admitidly not too much, cos he doesn't do anything else to stop saurman, but it bodes a little better for the possibility of what he might do next.) Did anyone else think of this? swoon moment; 'this creature is bound to me...and i to him.'
-
...I could be wrong, morG would know for sure I think, but I believe that only Elven blades forged in Gondolin before it's fall for the Goblin wars "glowed blue around their edges" when Orcs/Goblins are near; a-la Sting, Ocrist, (Noldoran for 'Goblin Cleaver', entombed with Thorin Oakenshield following his death at "The Battle of Five Armies" in "The Hobbit") and Gandalf's sword Glamdring, ('The Foe Hammer' once weilded by Turgon the king of Gondolin himself). Ocrist and Glamdring were blades of such renown that they are still rememebered with terror by the goblins of the Misty Mountains at the time of "The Hobbit" who fearfuly refer to them as "Beater and Biter". Bilbo applied the moniker 'Sting' to his blade during his encounter with the giant spiders of Mirkwood in "The Hobbit". *** Grima's tear: My original interpretation was that Grima, being a slave of Saruman who is reverent of the fallen wizard's power and 'majesty', is just simply overwhelmed by the sheer size and magnifigance of Saruman's army. However, his infatuation with Eowyn is well documented in both novel and film, so maybe it's a combination of these feelings that 'turns on Grima's waterworks'?
-
clippyhed, to a tailend talkback. With such fair words you should have no fear of a backlash. Not from the tailenders, that is. We usually wait for the riff-raff & obligatory trolls to depart and then the real discussion begins. That's not to say that everyone agrees but different opinions & ideas can be debated without insults. There is some light hearted teasing, as old friends will do. As to your question, no, no crying babies. Just one ignorant moron whose cell phone went off during the death of Haldir. Fortunately, for him, he turned it off before I could grab him by the neck, rip out his spleen, and nail it to his forehead as a warning to others. I am generally a very tolerant person, but my Number 1 pet peeve is the lack of respect and consideration for others that is so prevalent these days. Anyhoo, welcome and please pull up a chair, have a shot of old #7 (on the house), and spend some time here.
-
It seems to me that it would be very inconsistent with everything else we've been told in the films about the Nazgul being called by the Ring, if any Nazgul, Witch King or otherwise, could fail to sense it from mere yards away, and with the Ringbearer under its spell. It would also be inconsistent with a theory offered by a fair number of people here: that this very scene exists so that Sauron will think the Ring is in Gondor. If the Nazgul has not indeed sensed the Ring in Osgiliath, then that theory makes no sense (though whether it is correct remains to be seen - and if it is correct, the Eye of Sauron has been drawn uncomfortably close to the Ringbearer's position.) I submit that it makes no sense for the Nazgul not to recognize the Ring and CERTAINLY not when Frodo appears to be in some kind of psychic link with the Nazgul, as he also was after being wounded at Weathertop (when his wheezing cries seem to be linked with the Ringwraiths'). He not only sensed the Nazgul before anyone else ("They're here...") but seemed to be obeying its command by offering up both himself and the Ring. It would greatly lessen the drama and horror of the scene if the juxtaposition of Frodo and Nazgul is mere coincidental. ***By the way, I almost hesitate to offer an opinion about anything to do with the film, now that any kind of serious discussion or debate risks being condemned as negative or egotistical. I had thought for the past many months that we were having an honest discussion of our varying opinions of one aspect of the films or another, and that opinions about the adaptation, both negative and positive, were given respect provided they were not trolling or abusive. But somehow, even making long lists of everything you find wonderful about a film becomes less fun, if you discover that you are not "allowed" to mention what you disliked, or to elaborate on it. I'd say where Bjarki and I differ is that our approval-to-disapproval rating of TTT is running at 80/20 for both of us, but my approval rating of FOTR went to 95/5 and has stayed there, whereas he says his FOTR approval rating is the same as for TTT. I am not yet ready to take the point of view that if I take exception at any point to PJ's adaptation, the problem must be with ME, and I should somehow sort myself out before I mention it. Jackson and the hundreds of people working with him have indeed given us a wonderful gift that has given me personally many, many hours of pleasure, emotionally and intellectually, and I expect ROTK to be an overwhelming achievement on all levels. But I think it's still alright to say, I think there were other ways of doing this, or even BETTER ways of doing this, without calling out the wargs.
-
Still think Frodo swirls his better than any of them. (Think about him climbing Amon Hen in Ring Vision, in FOTR.) And of course, that was a pretty swoony cloak-swirl that covered both him and Sam under the very eyes of the Easterlings. You know, they had a terrible time coming up with just the right weave for those cloaks - finally found it on a New Zealand farm with their own unique breed of sheep! - and couldn't have done better for color and texture - now green, now grey, now thick and comfy, now translucent. I hope we will really see them work as camouflage in Mordor. ***I know Alice mentioned it above, and I already seconded, but my favorite Legolas moment in the whole film is his "Shall I describe it for you, or do you want me to get a box?" He is so radiant with affection for Gimli, and a kind of pre-battle joy. And yes, I think he is really coming into his own in the second film. ***Favorite Faramir moment (and no, I am not backing down from Un!Faramir) is by the falls with his archers. He begins to have possibilities. Elijah Wood plays that whole scene beautifully. I only wish Faramir could have explained to Gollum that Frodo was saving his life, not betraying him. Would have liked to have seen, "Don't want fish!"
-
In case any of you are not subscribers to the LOTR fan club (trust me, it's worth it for the articles), they had a good one on the banners, in which it was mentioned that the designer's favorite was Arwen's wedding banner and second favorite was the one in her bedroom. (Please take note next time around, all you who have been noticing the character and not her draperies. It really is exquisite.) Frankly, I would like one for my own bedroom - if not that one, then an elven battle banner or two. The moment of the Rohan banner tearing loose and floating down in front of Aragorn was really a gorgeous touch (though it bothered me that no one stopped to pick it up - must have been priceless). Do you know they created these gorgeous things, in hand-dyed silk with hand-embroidery, and then had to MUCK THEM UP for the battles? I could just cry.... ***Well, speaking of draperies, it is almost midnight and I forgot to put the sheets back on the bed after washing them. Don't you just hate it when that happens? JD1866, I don't know how you manage - you are doing well to have seen it once, though I wish you well in escaping many more times to our fantasy world. ***I really thought it was a great touch to have Frodo flashing back to being wounded on Weathertop, and would vote for that being the Witch King. It also sets up nicely that the trauma is not going to go away. I'm not sure that anyone has mentioned this, but might Frodo's later mental state have been at least partially inspired by Tolkien's memories of all those young men coming back from the trenches permanently shell-shocked? It seems to have been particularly acute after WWI, whether from the long-term horror or just because it was first given wide-spread attention. ( Though I have read that it was a greater problem after WWII than has been generally acknowledged, because that was supposed to be a "good war" and the troops weren't supposed to have been as demoralized, so "shellshock" was just called "battle fatigue" as if it could be gotten over more readily, with rest, and veterans were more afraid to own up to it.) I can recommend a wonderful book called "Achilles in Vietnam" that parallels case studies of battle trauma in Vietnam with passages from the Iliad, citing the various stages of de-sensitization, rage, , disillusionment with authority, post-traumatic stress syndrome, etc. At any rate, one of the points made was that victims tend to be less able to bear stress with repeated exposure (rather than becoming immune to it) so it is entirely appropriate that Frodo would be flashing back at this reminder of earlier trauma - and further proof of his strong will and courage that he goes on.
-
Jan 05, 2003 9:21:36 AM CST
Clipyhed, Elanor, Alice, Daughter.....posting this again 'cause
by billy budd
Clipyhed, I've been absent from these talkbacks for a while but.......your post is one of the nicest I've read on this site. So free of hate, so free of grudges and nit-picking (I can be a nit-picker myself sometimes). You rule, clipyhed. These movies are for you: enjoy them, you deserve it. Here's one (occasional) talkbacker who won't shoot you down in flames.........Alice: I have a strong suspicion that we will not be seeing the Voice Of Saruman chapter (with the breaking of the staff etc). No, I think that Gandalf's exorcism of Theoden - where he totally over-rules Saruman - is the closest we'll get to this. A pity, because Saruman's speech from the window of Orthanc is possibly my favorite moment in the book - an example of oration to rival that of Marc Anthony in 'Julius Caeser'(sigh). But not cinematic enough for PJ's vision, I think. I now realise that PJ favours action over dialogue. Similarly, Elanor: I have a feeling that the lines you are quoting about Theoden being 'very polite', do not apply to PJ's Theoden - even after his exorcism he comes across as wayward and a bit cantankerous. I can't see him being chatty and familiar with a couple of hobbits....Daughter Of Time: Yes, you are perfectly ewntitled to express your opinion. Each person's experience of the movie is correct FOR THEM - and there are legitimate reasons for having issues with TTT. Personally, I regret that the story has been dumbed-down a bit since FOTR. If I were to sum up my problems with the movie, I would say that there are several points where PJ's powerful storytelling crosses the line and becomes plain heavy-handed. So I'll be skipping those bits when I get the DVD and enjoying all the great stuff! Yours, raw and wriggling, Billy.
-
Jan 05, 2003 9:23:49 AM CST
Indeed DOT, for these movies to be consistent to be internally c
by conan_the_humble
I really fail to see how the Nazgul could not have sensed the presence of the ring. Why else would he have got so close? He may very well have felt that the overwhelming fear he inspired may have been sufficient to keep him or the 'Fell-Beast' from harm, but that clearly wasn't the case as the steed WAS wounded a number of times with Arrows. If he didn't sense the ring I can see no other reason the Nazgul would have got so close. I always felt from the books that the Nazgul generally avoided battle and used the fear they inspired to demoralise the enemy and allow their own troops to triumph. Now don't howl me down as I know there are plenty of times the Nazgul directly engage in fighting, but I'm refering to the 'big' battles, the Pelennor fields etc. I felt the Nazgul, particularly with their winged steeds, were particularly well-suited to the reconnaisance task, not the actual fighting. Look what happens to the Witch-king when he tries to take a hand in the battle directly... Cheers.
-
Btw, I forgot to mention in my last post, welcome Clipyhed. One other thing. I saw 'The Tuxedo' tonight. My god, what storytelling, the scale and scope of the movie making was BREATHTAKING!!! I was simply awestruck for the 87 minutes or so it seemed to run for... Seeing movies like that, REALLY make me appreciate the LOTR movies. Still I thought it was better than the latest Bond movie, and Jennifer Love-Hewitt added some nice scenery... Cheers.
-
...as usual on AICN talk backs. Just check the dates mates!
-
I agree. The Wraith must have sensed the presence of the Ring, this would make sense from what we have seen so far. Happily enough this stuff goes down in Osgiliath, which makes life a little easier, but doesn't make sense if Aragorn looks into the palantir and "reveals himself" (fnarr fnarr) as he'll be somewhere else. As far as Theoden goes, he definitely chats up the Hobbits as there is a common still of Merry swearing fealty to him. And Theoden is polite, mainly. He's just kind of stressed in TTT. Hell, I was stressed in TTT, and I just sat in the audience.
-
... could find evidence of the
-
Skyway Moater: I'm hoping for the palantir bits to still be in ROTK, but I doubt they'll be there in the same form. So, as per your request, this is how it might go down: Gandalf has to take Pippin to Gondor, because 1) after Grima throws the palantir down, he struggles with Saruman on the balcony. Because Gandalf, Aragorn and all the rest are so intently watching the struggle and the resulting Saruman-kebab, they don't notice Pippin picking up the palantir and gazing into it. When they do notice (Merry probably first, calling Gandalf for help), it's too late and Gandalf takes off for Gondor, or 2) Pippin is wounded in some other way, e.g. Saruman somehow hurts him, causing Gandalf to hurl some magic at him, resulting in the Saruman-kebab, and then Gandalf takes off for Gondor with Pippin (Aragorn still looks into the palantir, though, even in this version). *Don't know if either one of those will be the way it will go down, but they're ways to get to the point more quickly. ***Xyzan: I thought that might be the scene you were talking about. Of course that whole bit is a joke that Gimli DOESN'T understand Elvish. See, Aragorn yells to the elves "Ladders", meaning that the orcs are coming and we have to get ready. Gimli doesn't understand a word but tries to act encouraging, and yells out "Great" or something. Thus, he doesn't understand a squat but tries to act like he does, saying totally the wrong thing. It's another example of "comic relief" Gimli. ***elanor: I'll second that request for Pippin's wonderful, mouth-full-of-food line about Theoden! Oh, and speaking of Legolas running, I always laugh at one of the wide shots of the three companions running as they're chasing the Uruk-hai, because Legolas stumbles and nearly falls down! Hahaa! I think if it had been a more close-up shot, it wouldn't have been used (just in general and especially as elves are supposed to be so cat-like and constantly agile, never stumbling), but as it is, I have an extra thing to enjoy when I watch TTT. Watch for it next time, as they're running on the cliff side. ***DoT: yeah, all those beautiful banners destroyed made me weep. So did that bit in one of Harry's on-set reports when he mentioned the big pile of hobbit feet and orc masks that were piled up in a corner waiting to be burned! I just thought, "hey, send me one! Don't burn them! Sell them on eBay or something!" Not to mention the news that the Shire set is now just a mud hole. All those lovely hobbit holes dug up and destroyed. Honestly, if they had any sense, they would've converted the place to a hotel. Hell, who wouldn't want to travel to such a beautiful, verdant place and spend the night in a round, lovely hobbit hole? ***Alice: yep, Aragorn will be elsewhere than the Ring if he shows up in the palantir. But, being the rightful King, he can control the palantir (which is also why he can wrest control of it away from Sauron), so maybe he can obscure his location from Sauron. After all, that was possible with the palantir. Thus, all Sauron would know is that the Isildur's heir has at some point gotten Saruman's palantir (and if Pippin looks into the palantir, that he has a halfling with him, connecting in Sauron's mind with the halfling spotted with the Ring in Osgiliath). The news of the King of Gondor, the halfling and the Ring in Gondor will probably come together in his mind (kinda like Sam connects the dots the wrong way with Boromir's death), leading him to believe that the King and the Ring are to be (or already are) united in Gondor.
-
...Thanks for the response! {;o)And I personally wouldn't have any issues with any of the scenarios you describe, except of course for the "Dreaded Istar Kabob"! As much as I appreciate PJ's adaptation, the only reason I can fathom for such a device is to get Saruman's fall/death 'out of the way' "dramatically" (whatever THAT means). Surely they could have come with something better than this after jettisoning TSOTS...
-
I don't believe that the Nazgul knows that Frodo has the Ring. This scene reminds me of two particular passages from the book. Reference TTT The Stairs of Cirith Ungol. The hobbits have just passed the Cross-roads and are in the valley before Minas Morgul. Then while crossing the bridge "Frodo felt his senses reeling and his mind darkening. Then suddenly, as if some force were at work other than his own will, he began to hurry, tottering forward, his groping hands held out, his head lolling from side to side." After being stopped by Gollum and Sam, "Frodo passed his hand over his brow and wrenched his eyes away from the city on the hill. The luminous tower fascinated him, and he fought the desire that was on him to run up gleaming road towards its gate. At last with an effort he turned back, and as he did so, he felt the Ring resisting him, dragging at the chain about his neck; and his eyes too, as he looked away, seemed for moment to have been blinded. The darkness before him was impenetrable." Then there's the passage when the Morgul host, being led by the Lord of the Nine, is marching to war. "...the Rider halted suddenly, right before the entrance of the bridge, and behind him all the host stood still. There was a pause, a dead silence. Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley. This way and that turned the dark head helmed an crowned with fear, sweeping the shadows with its unseen eyes. Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach of a snake, unable to move." Now, Frodo was able to turn his thoughts from the Ring (with the help of the phial of Galadriel) and disaster was narrowly averted. So, there is a precedence for Frodo going into a hypnotic state, to have the desire to (dare I say it??) expose himself to the enemy, and, with a bit of help, to avoid detection. It seems to me that PJ took these two scenes, combined them and then punched them up a bit. That's my opinion and it is, of course, subject to change upon subsequent viewings of the movie.
-
We're having a really gorgeous Santa Ana (clear sky and temps in the 70s along the coast) and the waves are really crashing in La Jolla, so my sister and I took her Pomeranian up to the Cove for the afternoon. (Weekends frequently revolve around giving the dog a good time.) There's a short stone wall where we were watching the waves, and it was quite a show, between the many shades of turquoise, the foam, the rainbow spray along the big breakers, the sparking droplets shooting up like crystal along the cliffs.... Anyway, we suddenly noticed Amber hopping desperately up and down on her hind legs, unable to see over the wall. So of course we said, "Would you like us to describe it to you... or shall we get a box?" (as we picked her up). ***Runelord has suggested to me (and I hope she won't mind my sharing) that the incongruity between Sam's "goodness" speech and the devastating loss of will Frodo has just been through can be made to work, really by just accepting Sam's cluelessness. Sam's just trying to offer something, anything, to help Mr. Frodo get back on his feet... it isn't really that he grasps that Frodo came within a blink of handing over himself, the Ring and all of Middle-Earth to the Dark Lord. (For one thing, he didn't see Frodo's face, as we did.) And conversely, Frodo, though he knows it doesn't fit the situation, is grateful to Sam for the effort. **JD, those are excellent points from the book about the Witch King's radar being jammed in Morgul Vale, but I do think PJ - in order to be "cinematic" - has made the Ring's call much more direct. (In the book, Frodo was fading into the shadow world after Weathertop, but not psychically linked to the Nazgul, as it seems clear he was meant to be in the film.) I guess we will only really know when we see how all this plays out in ROTK, but my own sense is still that the Nazgul was actively reaching for the Ring when Sam knocked Frodo down the stairs at the very last half-second - and was only driven away by Faramir's arrow. ***Adding to further question of continuity: Faramir is currently retreating from Osgiliath, so will he be sent BACK by Denethor? One would not like to be in that vicinity, after the Nazgul have had a bona-fide Ring Encounter. ***Am REALLY tempted to make it back to TTT tonight, except my sister also wants to spend a gift certificate she got for Christmas by hosting the whole family for dinner at The Prado - which happens to have the best margueritas in San Diego. A very tough call, indeed.
-
JD1866: well, actually, the second passage shows that the Nazgul can sense something when the Ring is near. Considering that Frodo is standing right in front of the fell beast, about a foot away, the wraith undoubtedly feels it, especially as the Ring is more powerful that close to Mordor. ***Miami Mofo: I still stand by the view that Gimli doesn't understand Elvish and it's meant as a joke. After all, he can't see over the wall, so he has no idea what's going on. And the fact that Gimli can't understand Elvish is already established in the SEV, where he complains when Haldir and Aragorn talk in Elvish that they should "use a language everyone can understand" and starts swearing in Dwarvish.
-
My post is lost somewhere in the middle reaches of the TB and will never find it's way home again. Hmm... I wonder if this post will join it?
-
...was just looking around over at blade.com. Apparently reproductions of the swords used in the films are a smash hit with knife collectors. Anyway it occured to me, I havent seen the name "Anduril" "Flame of the West" used anywhere in association with the reforged Narsil. What's up with that? Think they'll leave the "re-christening" out?
-
Saw it again last night (so call a cop...) and had the following thoughts - Faramir is pretty Faramir-like until he says "The Ring will go to Gondor" and we all follow him into the alternative universe, and also he is pretty easy on the eye, I must say. I think David Wenham wouldn't have had a problem playing proper Faramir. I like the bit above the Forbidden Pool - I took away that he was clearly testing Frodo, and actually would have been pretty dissappointed in Frodo if he'd just allowed Gollum to be stuck full of arrows like a pincushion. Especially while Stinker/Slinker is singing his comedy song and indulging in his comedy fishslapping. And something else occurred to me. If you had no book knowledge, Sam and Faramir would seem like bastards to you since as far as they seem to know, Gollum is guilty of nothing worse than being somewhat overly attached to his Preciouss, and indulging in the odd bit of Fellowship stalking. Sam doesn't even overhear Gollum going on treacherously with himself in the films. It just comes across as prejudice against skinny Ring addicts. Definitely a scene missing there, methinks. Also, it seems to me that the audiences in general prefer TTT - it seems to garner a better reaction than FOTR did - which is peculiar, as it seems to have more logical errors and mistakes - Gandalf being surprised at being called Gandalf after meeting Merry and Pippin, how do Merry and Pippin get their swords back (maybe we see this in the next movie), that sort of thing.
-
Prepare to have the breath sucked right out of your body by the calendar pages for ROTK that you can access here: http://hollywooddreamsonline.com/
Don't know if that's Frodo paralyzed by Shelob or Frodo in a faint being rescued by Sam, but either way (DoT falls splat! on the floor....) And Frodo heroically wielding Sting and Phial! Also, is that Sauron rising in smoke as he dissolves? Unfortunately, it says this is IN HOUSE only, and I do not have $300.... Sob! -
Jan 06, 2003 12:28:49 PM CST
Faramir escapes from his boy-band image and becomes a respected
by billy budd
Alice, I gotta disagree with you there about Faramir. Saw TTT for the fourth time last night (totally contradicting my own opinion that it's not a repeat-view movie). I think Faramir is damn well going to shoot Gollum and comes within a hair's breadth of doing it. He is actually starting to give the signal to shoot when Frodo stops him. I now see clearly that it was essential for Faramir to be portrayed as a baddie. For the purposes of the movie we NEED Frodo+ring to be in major jepordy here. The three main threads of the story have to reach their climaxes at the end of the movie (I was going to say simultaneously - yikes!). If Faramir had been a nice guy who immediately refuses the ring then this would ruin the movie! No, the audience has to believe that Faramir is a hard-hearted SOB who is deadly serious about sending the ring to Gondor. PJ's Faramir serves the movie much better than his wishy-washy counterpart in the book. And check out the look on his face just after Gollum is captured - he is looking very evilly at Frodo. This guy clearly means no good and this is exactly what creates tension and danger in this story. Perfect. So I'm afraid I have little time for complaints about how Faramir has changed from the book. The last thing I want to see is a movie that follows the book exactly. I have read the book a dozen times - I know it too well! I want to be surprised with an alternative version of the same story - which is exactly what PJ has given us. I think it took four viewings for me to finally put my 'bookish' expectations to sleep and actually enjoy the movie for what it is. And I can now see why the ordinary cinema-going public prefers this to FOTR. This movie is not shackled by the book and works much better as a popcorn movie. Now, must go and see it again soon. Cheers! BB
-
...I mean, at this point it's only fair. Lord can I load up a bandwidth. Besides, I've got hours of cloak-swirling practice to get going on! >snort< ;) *** Foistly, as for having negative reactions to negative reactions, far be it from me to tell someone what to think or how to express themselves. I guess my own exasperated reaction to initial nitpicking was just, It's Too Soon! Be drunken in the 80, save the 20 for the hangover! :) I think that's the page elanor and I were on. By all means, there's lots of room for the picking of nits, and debate over which of the nits to be picked. I hope to have more time soon to do so! *** Complete sideways change of subject--Miami Mofo, sorry about the game, but MAN what a game that was! I defintely think that was a horrible PI call that kept the first OT alive, the game should have ended there. But OSU definitely kept themselves in the game to the point where it COULD hinge on a wrong call. (You have to admit, it's hard to retain a championship with 5 turnovers!) And then they earned it with the 4-down stop on the 2-yd line in the 2nd OT. Amazing game all around, and I don't look forward to meeting you guys next year, with in all likelihood an even HUNGRIER squad, and that much more experienced. HORRIBLE shame about McGahee, hope he bounces back as fast as Suggs did for us. *** Back on topic! I don't have the Cinefex on me right now, but there is specific mention of what Mithril conjectured about the Frodo/Nazgul scene being an adaption of the scene in the book, on the stairs, with the WK sensing something and Frodo's pull toward 'em. Pretty much what they were going for. Have to find that bit and see what it may say specifically about that. morG, you've got the issue, li'l help? I'll probably never remember to bring it into work with me! *** Go here http://hollywooddreamsonline.com/ for some calendar images from ROTK! Yep, that's Denethor's mug in August. Pour le swooners, note Aragorn on horseback, Sam cradling Frodo (who has, apparently, swooned!), and o'course Lego and Gimster mid-battlefield. Also like Frodo holding up the phial in Shelob's cave. And notice that Merry & Pip are ankle-deep in H2O! Curious if November is just a random Orc baddie or... a face of The Dead? *** Speaking of which, yes indeed The Paths of the Dead are definitely IN. Mentioned specifically in the Cinefex article, but not in detail. Just that it was another FX project being worked on. Also seen in stills on TORN, or maybe it was a scan of one of those trading cards, Merry & Pippin standing in front of a well-stocked larder, amid the rubble of Isengard looked like, with gleeful expressions at the discovery. So, not inconceivable that they'll meet the others while half-asleep and bellys bursting! *** Had to share this with the TE Swoon Club: During a drinking-establishment postmortem of viewing #2, a couple of our female members were bemusedly agreeing with each other that for some reason they couldn't put their finger on, Pippin had suddenly become very, very attractive during his "We have the Shire" scene with Merry. When they finally came to the conclusion that it was because he'd momentarily lost his scarf and "had his white shirt open a few buttons" me ale almost came up me nose. :) *** Brief I said, right? HA! As for the corner animation, man, Cartuna really is behind in his job. That American Beauty one is SOOO two years ago. Where's the helicopter shot pulling back from Harry in the white windswept gown on the front porch of Edoras?
-
the TB hoisted my post to about halfway up the TB. So tailenders (esp. Miami Mofo and JD, who I was responding to), check it out. Oh, and Alice, that's what I've been saying. That line and his "gift" line in Osgiliath are what screws up the character of Faramir. Otherwise, I'm quite pleased, even with the changes.
-
the calendar is $30, not 300. So go buy it, me lass! Sorry about that, slight touch of scotitis hit me at the end of that sentence. Anyway, cool pics. Notice Faramir over Denethor's shoulder? Now if only Denethor was holding the palantir... Aah, who am I kidding? Those pictures are frigging cool. And I'm hoping the last picture is of one of the dead. If only they'd show the ears better. They're cut off a little too soon. If we'd see the tops of the ears, we could see if they had points (=orc) or not (=one of the dead, as they were human spirits).
-
Which puts it into that awkward range between the "I'd have to be insane" $300 and the "buy it now" $30. (It's the one with the Legolas errata that is $300.) ***Will have to think about Pippin having an unbuttoned white-shirted moment.... I just knew he made me cry. ***It begins to look as though they are cramming everything wonderful into the third film, and it will have to be four hours long in the theatrical release. Which is fine by me. (If ONLY they could dispense with those #%&# previews!) ***Am planning on getting to TTT again tonight, so will take particular note of whether Faramir looks as though he is really intending to shoot Gollum. By the way, strong disagreement with the concept that natural nobility and strength of mind is "wishy-washy"; on the contrary, it represents enormous power. It was the movie line about sending his father a "great gift" that suddenly made him seem smarmy.... Remember, we really don't know ANYTHING about film-Faramir's relationship with his father - he could be the apple of his eye, for all we're told. All we learn in FOTR is Boromir's "My father is a noble man, but his realm is failing. He looks to me to make it right, and I would do it...." And now we have Faramir's "Boromir was my brother." Really, I think one of the weaknesses with Un!Faramir is that we simply don't know enough about him to make some of the leaps explaining his on-screen character that some have posted, unless we have read the books and so can fill in the blanks. So far, it's Boromir that's STILL coming out ahead in the empathic and sensitive range, thanks to his scene with Frodo on the flet. ***As for the Nazgul, I still don't see how they could be "drawn by the Ring" enough to track him at all, and not recognize the Ring that close (and that much closer to Sauron). But agree the evidence cuts both ways. I assume the Witch King took three passes over the marsh because he was sensing something. However, the idea of a Nazgul trying to land and comb the marsh just begs too many questions....
-
...at my fourth screening. Actually, he was kicking the chair next to me (those people moved before it started), but the vibrations were bad enough, though I made polite "will you please make him stop" eye contact with the mother. His sister-and-friend, the Legolas groupies, were on my other side, though I chatted them up before the show to make sure we had established rapport and I could count on them to behave. (The mother, before the show, promised to keep them in line... sigh.) I don't mind the kids half as much as the adults, like the 20-something male in my fifth viewing, who kept making sotto-voce (but not whispered) remarks to his female friend every minute or two, until I finally turned on him and said, "Sir, I paid to listen to the dialogue on the screen, NOT YOU! So will you please STOP!" Anyway, it worked.
-
..and they ask me how I was reduced to such a sorry pass, I will answer, "Frodo swoonage" (combined with San Diego rents). I think I am going to get that calendar. For one thing, that picture of Sam holding Frodo reminds me of this great sketch that was inside the cover of the original LP of the "Spartacus" soundtrack, a few decades ago.... Just a black pencil sketch against a red background, with Spartacus cradling Antoninus, whom he has just killed. That sketch was so compelling that I owned the record for probably years before I ever realized it could be peeled back to reveal color photos from the movie inside the flap. (Vitaly, where are you? You probably remember this.) I think the sketch might have been done by the same artist that did the pencil sketch for one of the "Lawrence of Arabia" posters, showing Lawrence with upswept blade, which was always my favorite of that movie's poster art. Anyway, I'm not making the same mistake twice. When something calls to me that much, it has to end up on my wall. (Well, give or take the $6,800 oil painting I spent months gazing at in a Gaslamp Quarter gallery. There are limits.)
-
creature is venting some serious spleen over on the TB for Harry's review. Someone, please, let him feel the TATOW! He's really harshing my buzz. Goes by Universal Noir. And you will know him by the trail of pretentious allusions.
-
Well, that gave me a good giggle on my lunch hour.... I will KILL if anyone misbehaves post-Shelob. By the way, I ordered the calendar! (Looks sadly at dwindling bank account, especially because I have to do some work for She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed this afternoon, and never know if I'll have a job at the end of any prolonged contact with her, or if I'll be led away in cuffs... and I still have to pay for this computer, on top of any Frodo swoonage being offered.) In theory, if I simply see TTT half as much as I saw FOTR, it would pay for the calendar... in theory.
-
Jan 06, 2003 5:13:58 PM CST
"Wishy-washy? I wish I'd washed that ring right out of my hair,"
by billy budd
Nah, Daughter Of (the endless decay of) Time - Faramir is cool in the book, but if they tried to show his nobility and gentle wisdom in the movie, he'd look like a damp squib - and then Frodo+Sam would be wandering happy and free for the last 1/3 of the movie, rather than facing perils and having epiphanies. Nice, noble Faramir just isn't dramatic enough for what PJ has in mind, methinks. I wouldn't have rascally Faramir changed for anything! BTW, I presume you know that the 'mighty gift' line is straight out of the book? Denethor says to Gandalf that if Boromir had been in Faramir's place, he 'would have sent his father a mighty gift'. Great line, glad they got it in somewhere. Now if only PJ had put in a rapping duel between Faramir and Frodo - where Frodo wins with a crushing put-down and Faramir lets him go out of 'respect' - ah one can only dream...
-
Yes, but that was one of those lines that made me loathe Denethor. Putting the words in Faramir's mouth is still smarmy. ***SHE is cracking the whip, but I'll see what's going on at 14060 on my home computer. TTT plans off for tonight, but going tomorrow with a neighbor I recruited coming back from lunch. She asked if she could bring her (grown-up) daughter. That's two recruits....
-
pippin in a white shirt moment? My dreams are coming true. i can't find the calender images, why do i ave to go from the link? ** anyway, important matters, i always assumed the wraths ouldn't sense the ring until it had been put on, but that they were under general orders to find hobbits away from the shire. (if the only hobbit Sauron had seen was gollum, he must have realised that they didn't travel often.) I'd thought that was the reason he reacts to pippin peeking in the plantir. So it could be the wraith is responding to Frodo's presence but not the rings, (although the ring is responding to it's presence). the only problem with this idea is how good th nazgul's sight is. if they're meant to be near blind, can they distinguish hobbits from human children? or are they trying to find anyone who fits the right height? (if so, could they take away all the annoying children who spoil viewings?). *** i was lucky on my first viewing, no trailers or adverts! I think the cinema decided it wanted more showings, at least on the first day. But it did mean that the title scene was spoilt, as people were still walking in when th gold etter were on the screen.
-
Here's the link to the calendar swoonage:
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1041895042
-
Thanks for the link. i didn't think to ook around a TORn. but oh my god! The swoonage here is pretty good. Who wants to bet Sam's about to lift the ring from around Froo's neck? I can't wait for december!
-
Since passages and themes from the books can appear almost anywhere - and they have already used the "tale" dialogue - do you suppose there's any hope of this being put in its place, for the final night before Mordor? "I don't know how long we shall take to--finish," said Frodo. "We were miserably delayed in the hills. But Samwise Gamgee, my dear hobbit--indeed, Sam, my dearest hobbit, friend of friends--I do not think we need give thought to what comes after that. To do the job, as you put it--what hope is there that we ever shall? And if we do, who knows what will come of that? If the One goes into the Fire, and we are at hand? I ask you, Sam, are we ever likely to need bread again? I think not. If we can nurse our limbs to bring us to Mount Doom, that is all we can do. More than I can, I begin to feel." Sam nodded silently. He took his mater's hand and bent over it. He did not kiss it, though his tears fell on it. Then he turned away, drew his sleeve over his nose, and got up, and stamped about, trying to whistle, and saying between the efforts: "Where's that dratted creature?"
-
Faramir as he says "Then it is forfeit"; Aragorn and Gimli on the ledge during the HD Battle - "It's a long way.."; profile of Haldir on the battlements (I used the call him the "seedy elf", but no more!); Frodo's smile and dark, dark eyes at the very end as Sam muses "Samwise the Brave". Oh, and you're right, guys, best to ignore that jerk UN.
-
I just checked in, and I was really touched by the welcomes and nice responses. The stories about the chair-kickers, talkers, and eaters were hilarious, and make me feel lucky that I only had to endure a crying baby. Actually, my second screening only had a teenaged ice-cruncher (which makes me crazy not only because of the noise, but because it makes me feel like my spine is being jack-hammered) but she did stop when I asked her to. Elanor, I feel compelled to explain my name, since people have asked if it's because I have a Flowbee, or because I perform circumcisions. It's just because I have longish hair, and when I'm computering, I pull it back with a "clippy." As advised, I did re-read some posts and checked the dates, and it's true, the flamers have definitely faded by now. I am all in favor of sincere & respectful discussion of my beloved Middle-Earth (and like I said earlier, the movies are now part of that for me). Heck, I even have a sense of humor about it - Bored of the Rings was one of the funniest books I ever read. It's just the hate-filled bashing that I don't even want to process. Probably like a lot of you. Anyway, I plan to re-read a lot of these posts over the next few days because there are some intriguing opinions, and maybe I'll write up a couple of my own some time, although I can't promise anything new or profound. Thank you all for making my day.
-
Was on my way to the library this evening to pick up a book they were holding for me (nothing to do with Tolkien) and passed a newstand which just happened to have one copy of last Friday's Daily Variety... the one with the full-page spread of suggested Oscar nominations over a really lovely view of Frodo sharing a tender moment with his Ring.... (TORN posted it two days ago.) Cannot imagine why New Line would be so wrong-headed as to suggest Elijah Wood for "Supporting Actor" - I know the categories are muddy but who, pray tell, is he "supporting"? No, it's Best Actor or nothing - and next year, it'd better be Best Actor. ***I really, really wish we could go back and fix typos. That should have been "master" in the passage quoted above. As I'm sure you all know.
-
agree wholeheartedly! The line is fine in Denethor's mouth and fits his personality, but putting it into Faramir's mouth is just plain wrong! ***Have not had any bad experiences with other viewers at TTT yet (just good things, like no commercials for the first two showings I went to, and the ringwraith in the audience - mind you, if he's been sitting right behind me, I might've been a bit nervous during the movie. Plus the hissing and shrieking might have disturbed the movie experience, and there's no way I'd tell a wraith to shut up). It was the same with FOTR, though there I'll always remember the two times I had couples sitting in front of me and the girls both would shudder and softly go "Oh..." every time Boromir was hit by an arrow. One of them also said "Oh no..." when Lurtz walked over the top of the hill, because they could guess what was coming. I just really enjoyed those moments, because it showed they were emotionally connecting with the films. ***But to continue the "bad movie experiences" list, I could mention the time years ago when I went to see Jurassic Park with my father and brother. It was my second time (hell, you go once alone and then decide to accompany the family), so I wasn't too perturbed, but I was still totally annoyed and also upset for my dad and brother when this frigging 6-year old kid sitting right behind us, who's seen the movie before, starts telling his mom about what's to come next! He does it all through the movie. "The T-Rex will attack next." "It'll jump out of there!" "He's gonna get killed soon." He's giving away every plot point and scary twist. And the mother did nothing to shut her miserable brood up! If I'd been a bit older I could've ended up a "Movie Theatre Massacre" headline in the papers.
-
A white shirt will boost your attractiveness level through the roof - it's worth more than a pure mithril shirt in the Raising Swoon Awareness Factor. Speaking of swoonery, those bloody ROTK pics have vanished! Would some kindly soul mail them to me at my TB addy if they have them, in a ZIP? I want to bask white-shirted distress, dammit!
-
Jan 07, 2003 8:36:10 AM CST
And the prize for most miserable person in the universe goes to.
by billy budd
I must say that I have zero tolerence for people making noise, especially during my beloved LOTR. My policy now is: Three strikes and I ask them (politely) to stop. This is after one of my FOTR viewings where a lady behind us was translating the entire movie into cantonese for the benefit of her non English-speaking companion - who squealed with enthusiasm as the plot developments were revealed to him. Hello? Usually if you ask people politely, they are so mortified that they shut up.*****Hmmm. I've been reading some of Universal whatsisname's angry rants: he has totally missed the point of these movies and is whipping himself over a gigantic misunderstanding. These movies were never going to be arty black-and-white minimalist character studies - which would only please a handful of crusty purists covered in dust and owl-droppings. These are blockbuster movies. Of course they have been simplified. This is not neccessarily a bad thing. The studio has to make its money back which means giving the public what they want and telling it in broad strokes. And let's be grateful that PJ has managed to squeeze a fair amount of 'authentic' nuggets into the formula. I have found that to really enjoy TTT, you have to put yourself in the mind-set of some-one who's never read the book. Then you can see what a terrific movie it is!****Which leads me onto Frodo and the flying nazgul. I must say that I prefer not to pick TTT apart too much - I don't think its 'logic' stands up to much book-related comparison. You have to remember, that these movies are designed to make sense to the general public who have not read the books and can only draw conclusions from what they've been shown on the screen. From this point of view, I think they would conclude that the nazgul has seen or sensed that the ring is now in Osgiliath because Frodo clearly held it up in front of the winged creature. And I'd say that most non-readers will have no clue where Osgiliath is in relation to Mordor and won't be bothered by any lapse in logic.
-
But the quality of the scans at TORN is amazingly poor. My swooning heart needs a bit better than that! I thought someone here might have mo'better saved images. Or not. Jeez. The last movie is only just released and I'm already angsting for imagery from the next one. I think I'm staring down some serious battle fatigue here.
-
I did order the calendar, and while I don't have a scanner myself, my brother-in-law does, so I'm sure I can find a way to share. I wonder how soon it will ship? (I'm already wondering what they will be using on the New Zealand stamps and cards next year, as they do such a bang-up job with those.) I really was no good for anything yesterday, after one look at pale Frodo.... ***My neighbor wants to go TOMORROW night, but I shall certainly check out extended claw of Fell Beast, at earliest opportunity. But I agree, if this is intended for mass consumption, the average audience member is not thinking, "Nazgul don't see well by daylight," etc., so the clear sense is that the Ringbearer has been seen in Osgiliath.
-
Heya morG, don't want you gettin complacent! ;) Now then, you say "I
-
(1) "*Aragorn's* learning How to Be A King" (B) "The T2T *SEV* may prove this completely wrong" (III) At least one "their" for "there" and, hell I dunno how many other goofs. Still, my first drafts are improving! ;) *** how long now until * special extended version * of two towers? shit!
-
Arwen
-
Am quite sure those are not elf "souls" (any more than they are elf bodies, after 3,000 years) in the Dead Marshes - just nasty snares and delusions of the Enemy.
-
I will have to crack open the book, because I could have sworn that Tolkien referred to them as such. It has been a while though. Maybe I shall have to read the Two Towers again. I have distanced myself this last year.
-
Walrus, surely you've seen the classic "Peanuts" were Lucy comes by as Linus is watching "Citizen Kane" on television, and just HAS to spoil it by telling him, "Rosebud is the name of his sled."
-
;) Ask me some time about my friend's Worst Spoiler Story Ever. Apparently, the Big Revelation and Plot Twist of Empire Strikes Back... wasn't what you thought it was! :)
-
"...wasn't the one you think it was" or... oh hell, stopping now. Too bored to work, but too busy for actual anecdote. Curse us and crush us!
-
I actually thought buying a home computer would put a stop to all this time-wasting activity at work, but I'm just as bored (and busy) as ever on the job, and it still calls to me....
-
Jan 07, 2003 1:31:19 PM CST
"Now, the last thing Gollum wants me to do is put this rope arou
by billy budd
Thanks for the welcome, folks. Pallando blue: your theories make a lot of sense. I like the Aragorn 'aprenticeship' thing - I hadn't noticed that before. I think PJ may have felt that explaining what the huorns are would have been just a little bit too much information in a movie already loaded with multiple characters/creatures/cultures (still thinking about the non-book fans). We may see the huorns in the extended DVD though! Love that scene in the book. *****Slightly off-topic: there was something nagging me throughout TTT - not annoying me - but there was something at the back of my head that was trying to surface and I've now realised what it is: does anyone else find that Sam is looking more and more like that Australian crocodile-hunting guy? Especially when he's manhandling Gollum and gets bitten in the shoulder. "Oooh, he's not one bit happy to see me!...Crikey, he's a biter!" Maybe I've seen this movie too many times, and with all this talk, I feel like seeing it again....was supposed to go and see City Of God, but looks like it'll have to wait....
-
It just occurred to me that one of the things that makes that picture of Frodo and Sam so desperately appealing is that Sam is also having a disheveled white-shirted moment.
-
I can see the resemblance!
-
She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed just summoned me, so I don't have time to look yet myself, but apparently high resolutions of those ROTK pics have just been posted over on TheOneRing.net!!!
-
Walrus: thanks for the laughs. I wouldn't mind a croc hunter -inspired look at Merry and the Witch King. "Crikey, that's a huuuge fell beast. A real naaasty bugger too. I've got this handeh little blade made 'specially for the puuurpose, while me lovely waehf stands there in front of the ringwraith, a creeature some mates call the "witch king of Angmar", distracting the bugger. Allrighty, the witch king is distraaacted. Naugh I'll jast jab this blade op his cloaca... Crikey, his pissed! Aagh, he's gat me with his black breath... Ah'm gauin' undeh... Crikey!" *And you were spoiled the twists in Sixth Sense and The Crying Game? Sheesh! Poor guy. ***Pallando: I too noticed the "learning to be king" aspect. Which is also why I'm a bit concerned when TBers talk about Aragorn being more wussy in TTT. What are they on? His path to becoming king is clearly there. *As for the beginning of ROTK, I've also thought that it would mirror the beginning of TTT and be an addition to already seen material. I just always imagined it being Arwen walking over to the altar in Rivendell and taking the shards of Narsil. But I gotta admit, I like your idea. Huorns, damn straight! Also, it would be a more seamless way to cut to Isengard and the palantir and so on.
-
Walrus: thanks for the laughs. I wouldn't mind a croc hunter -inspired look at Merry and the Witch King. "Crikey, that's a huuuge fell beast. A real naaasty bugger too. I've got this handeh little blade made 'specially for the puuurpose, while me lovely waehf stands there in front of the ringwraith, a creeature some mates call the "witch king of Angmar", distracting the bugger. Allrighty, the witch king is distraaacted. Naugh I'll jast jab this blade op his cloaca... Crikey, his pissed! Aagh, he's gat me with his black breath... Ah'm gauin' undeh... Crikey!" *And you were spoiled the twists in Sixth Sense and The Crying Game? Sheesh! Poor guy. ***Pallando: I too noticed the "learning to be king" aspect. Which is also why I'm a bit concerned when TBers talk about Aragorn being more wussy in TTT. What are they on? His path to becoming king is clearly there. *As for the beginning of ROTK, I've also thought that it would mirror the beginning of TTT and be an addition to already seen material. I just always imagined it being Arwen walking over to the altar in Rivendell and taking the shards of Narsil. But I gotta admit, I like your idea. Huorns, damn straight! Also, it would be a more seamless way to cut to Isengard and the palantir and so on.
-
but the site or my net connection is acting up.
-
Jan 07, 2003 4:46:17 PM CST
Not just a Spoiler Story, but a Cautionary Tale On Over-Geeking!
by pallando blue
Okay, this is how it was told to me, by a friend here at the workplace. Heard it a couple times since. He and his pals were around 17-18 years old when Empire was coming out, and like a lotta guys their age REEEALLY jazzed up for it, having seen SW about a dozen times, and a couple times more each rerelease (and there were, like, 2 or 3 rereleases between '77 and '80, right?). They were all big fans, but there was only one of em that was the uber-fan, the convention-going fan. While they'd all happily wait all day in a movie line, he'd wait 2 days for a Chewbacca autograph, and would spend weekends poring through bookstores and comic shops for every article, tie-in merch, whatever. They all called him their "source." [Kind of what my friends call me on LOTR things... oh no] *** As we all know this was the days before the Internet, and unless you had some connection to The Biz there was no way you would ever find out What Happens Next. Everyone's heard, and has their own, "I am your father!" experience and story, so I won't repeat mine (other than to say, being 10 at the time, it was CRUSHING in a true, couldn't-draw-breath couldn't-talk-til-we-were-in-the-car way). *** As circumstances played out, my coworker's friends were all going to the first matinee showing opening day, but he couldn't blow off his summer job and so got tickets for himself and his girlfriend for the late show. He gets off work, meets "the source" for a bite to eat. Asks him, obviously, "SO!? Was it good!?" * "Man, you have no IDEA." Wow, the source is really stunned--genuinely stunned! "Seriously, you got no idea how COOL..." * "Yeah? Well [can't help himself] give me a little, but don't ruin anbything!" * "Oh man, there's this asteroid field..." * "ASTEROIDS? Oh COOL! Like, a dogfight in an asteroid belt? COOL!" * "Oh MAN, there's this thing, I do NOT want to ruin for you!" * "Yeah?" * "I swear, I did NOT see this shit coming." * "Oh, man, I can't WAIT." * "...And, like, Darth Vader's really Luke's father, and..." * "........Holy shit, what?" * "Yeah, man! Vader is Luke's dad! Kenobi totally lied to him! But that's not it!" The source has got this big wild grin going on. * ".......WHAT?!? Vader is Luke's father... oh my GOD... Man that kinda makes sense, but... no way, no WAY... oh my GOD..." Slack-jawed, brain reeling. * "No! Man! That's not the BIG surprise! Watch, man! You'll see!" *** So off he goes to see The Empire Strikes Back that night, trying to wrap his head around two world-changing concepts: That Darth Vader is Luke's father, and that there's something Even Bigger Than That that freaked out The Source. Sees the movie. Loves the hell out of it, but during that Big Scene is obviously not as shaken to the core as everyone else, moving though it was. He can't for the life of him figure out what the hell the guy was talking about. What in the world was bigger than THAT? Meets him the next day. "So, was I right or was I right? Wasn't that fuckin' incredible!?" * Stares at "the source" for a minute. Slow burn's been heatin' up fer 12 hours or so. "What the hell were you talking about? First you tell me, you fucking TELL ME that Vader is Luke's father, and THEN you tell me that that's not THE surprise. What the hell? What the HELL was bigger than THAT!?" * [I can quote now verbatim, as the following sentence was etched with acid into my friend's bitter memory] To which he replies, with the innocent glee of a child, "Man, I could not fucking BELIEVE that Lando Calrissian originally owned the Millennium Falcon! Wasn't that fucking INCREDIBLE?" * "................." Whereupon "the source" promptly got his nose broken and the holy living hell beaten out of him right in his own front yard. They never spoke to each other again. The End. And Aesop's moral is, kids...? :)
-
Here's the direct link to the big, beautiful photo from the calendar. I expect some serious swoonage (and Elanor, DON'T tell me you're not going to look at it). http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/5807
I am going to buy some proper photo copy paper tonight! And by the way, you can tell that Sam is wearing Sting, so it's definitely after he's decided Frodo is dead (and I hope, before Ring removal and kiss). -
But I just got an e-mail from my friend, the one who works for the newspaper and just became a LOTR convert... and he was offering me the calendar for FREE! One of the editors got an advance copy, and it wasn't wanted, so he picked it up for me.... I could have saved $100 plus postage....Gah! (Knocks head against table.) Of course, now he says he's glad I don't need it, as he was starting to think he might enjoy keeping it....
-
can someone remind me which talkback was the discussion about (i think it was called) chi yen? Sorry if i got that wrong, but i want to review the tb for some help on an esay. thanks.
-
Ah, glad Sam the Crocodile Hunter rings bells with others - I was afraid I was losing my mind. But he does get a gleam in his eye when he sees those oliphaunts. ***update! Just saw TTT again and I noticed something hilarious! When the ents are flooding Isengard there is a shot of some orcs fleeing towards one of the gaping chasms with the torrent right behind them. As they reach the brink and are overtaken by the water, one of the orcs does a gigantic leaping dive over the edge. He lifts his knees up into his chest in an I'm-going-to-make-the-biggest-splash-in-the-pool type dive. It's totally incongruous and when I saw it I shrieked with laughter - I mean they're all plummeting to their doom but this guy is just trying to impress the girls! When I get the DVD I must look out for other little jokes the animators have put in...**** Pallando, just gimme the name and address of that 'source' and I will send six dozen wargs to sort him out.***** Elanor, when I say 'blockbuster', I am not of course referring to what passes for a 'blockbuster' nowadays - I am talking more about your Wizard Of Oz, your Gone With The Wind etc - epic sweeping 'motion pictures' that appeal to a very wide audience, across all age groups and generations. I do not mean this in a perjorative way. I find, for example, that the LOTR movies hit very similar dramatic beats and emotional notes to the 'Titanic' movie of a few years ago. I think these movies are operating in a similar 'emotional register'. Aragorn's farewell to Boromir is not a million miles away from Kate Winslet letting go of Leonardo di Caprio. None of which is a bad thing at all. I admit that hokey as 'Titanic' undoubtedly is, I still found it gripping and moving - in an unashamedly cornball way of course - but this is precisely what made it the most successful movie of all time! Powerful storytelling, painted in broad strokes. (I note also, that Bernard Hill finds himself in charge of what is essentially a sinking ship in both 'Titanic' and LOTR).
-
Totally off the board now, i hope the film isn't even nomiated. It's not fair to do so, beause all that happens is they get our hopes up, tire out director and actors in endless interviews, DISTRACT PJ FROM COMPLETEING THE DVD EARLY, and then not award the film anything bcause it's fantasy. much better if they just gloss over till the films finished next year.**** billy, walwas and mithril, thanks for the imagry, and that's gonna stick in my head. and belated welcome and manic grin to clippy and billy!**** definitly sooning ove those piture, and that's one of the first aragorn pictures to properly do him justice. Sam does have sting!
-
Jan 07, 2003 7:43:44 PM CST
Theoden King watches as a sea of orcs pours through the breach a
by billy budd
Further to my comparison with Titanic - does anyone else notice the Titanic-style hubris of Theoden in constantly claiming that Helm's Deep is unassailable? "Saruman's hand will have grown long indeed if he thinks he can reach us here," he says - followed shortly after by him crankily telling Gimli, "I have fought many battles - I know how to defend my own keep". This particular line he says while standing before the very flimsy-looking wooden door which the orcs make short work of later on (Theoden tries to reinforce it and bolster it AFTER the Uruks have made a big hole in it. Why not reinforce BEFORE the orcs arrive? Apparently the steel plates on the Titanic were of inferior manufacture...). Then Theoden continues to boast about how they can outlast the siege and it is at this point that Aragorn tries to talk some sense into him ('send for help' etc.). The wierdest bit though, is during the siege. The orcs are streaming up the ladders and are already fighting behind the walls; a battering ram is being used on the paper-thin front door and there are ten thousand orcs outside baying for blood. Things could hardly look worse! And then Theoden says, "Is this it? Is this all you can conjure, Saruman?" Er, sorry to bother you, Captain, but have you thought about getting contacts? Perhaps this is why Gandalf says he fears for Theoden. The man has already sunk the 'unsinkable' and is the WORST possible candidate for defending the 'unassailable'!
-
i don't think this keyboard agrees with me anymore. hoping to have rotk preview in march! I can pray.
-
Sweet mother of God, can you believe that picture of Aragorn on horseback?????!!!!!! THAT, my friends, MUST be the poster for ROTK. If they do another ridiculous floating heads poster, I will personally go around and eat every last one of them. Oh, and the perfect poster for TTT? Frod Vs Flying beastie of course! Iconic poster right there.
-
I'm now swooning so hard that I've hyperventilated myself and am now hiccupping unattractively at my desk. Those pics are *gorgeous*. The one of Sam and Frodo produced a real reaction in me - you know, after years of imagining that scene... oh my. I have to go sit down quietly now with a mug of hot cocoa and think of dull things to calm my mind. Oh, and a big wave to the newbies!
-
Jan 08, 2003 8:18:18 AM CST
He tasks me! ... this trilogy making wall maintenance man!...
by skyway moaters
... he tasks me with his threefold posts and I shall have him! I weel chase heem around the maelstrom of Antares unto perdition's very flame befor I give heem up! FULL POWER!... Most vexing indeed Ingold. Do I have to call Fister into the fray? Are we not all friends here?
-
Actually, Frodo vs. The Nazgul would make desperately delicious wallpaper. Anybody seen it as a still on the internet anywhere? Oh, and Sam the Crocodile Hunter is making me laugh too hard, so you'd better put a stop to it.
-
Jan 08, 2003 8:34:10 AM CST
Geeze morG I was just only wondering if the Narsil/Anduril 're-n
by skyway moaters
...ye sooty old nucklepate...
-
...naaaasty big bugger indeed! ROTFL!
-
... I rememeber being so surprised by the revelation that I argued with the other geeks in my circle at the time that Vader was lying! Spoilers were hard to come by in those days unless you had a friend in the industry...
-
I think I got it now. Basically the elf 'spirits' are just whispers of their passing. Not their actual souls. I broke down and took a peek at the pictures from ROTK. 49 weeks is just too long a wait. And stop calling Sam the croc hunter for gods sake I won't be able to watch it without thinking of him that way. Like the Council of Elrond has forever been corrupted thanks to MTV. I too would be interested in the Frodo v. Nazgul pic, of course I'm still pining for a Aragorn and Boromir pic from FOTR.
-
Jan 08, 2003 12:14:49 PM CST
Dammit Moaters, I am FED UP with all your offensive Pollandock j
by pallando blue
Actually, just wanted to point out you keep spelling me handle wrong. :) Man, that new TB's the same as it ever was, same as it ever was idn't it? Eh, couple days more and it'll be off the front page. Then it'll be up stakes again, eh? Til then, I'll hang here with anyone else who cares tuh wif me. (Though I will say, that Jar-Jaromir link someone posted was pretty damn funny!) *** Caught up on this TB and holy SHITE I can't stop laughing at Sam the Croc Hunter, Walrus' and Budd's takes! Alice is right, guys, stop before my ribs become compound fractures. :)
-
The only one I've seen is the one in Cinefex magazine, and that's not quite the right long shot - it's the later shot with Frodo's cloak billowing sideways that we want. Trouble is, I want long shot AND close-up of Frodo... maybe as an inset in the corner. ***Know what you mean, Alice. I couldn't breathe (or think) properly for a good long while after I saw that picture. It was everything I'd ever imagined, and more. ***Daily Variety (which is an excellent source, if you can get your hands on them) had a full-page spread last year of Aragorn kissing Boromir's forehead, but I haven't seen it anywhere else. Still expecting a $150 coffee table book somewhere down the line, with all the great tableaux.... ***My friend called last night, and we discussed "the calendar" - seems he has a standing order with the local film critic to save any LOTR-related promotional material for me! (Can you imagine, an entire newsroom... and nobody else cares???) I told him, next time CALL ME INSTANTLY. And also, hang onto the calendar, in case my order turns out to be illegal (officially, they seem to have withdrawn it from the market, as it was never meant to go outside film circles - which I guess includes Midwestern movie critics). Very, very unfair that something of this quality is reserved for critics... while Ballantyne publishes calendars leaning heavily to orcs. I wonder what scenes we may seen in March?
-
Yes, the three-quarters shot of Frodo Vs Nazgul is the most dramatic. Why on earth this didn't become the official poster is beyond me - it would be #1 movie poster of all time and I'm saying that from the point of view of a graphic designer/artist. I am very disappointed at the persistent use of amateurish 'floating head' posters for these movies. I know it is the (absurd) Hollywood convention but you would think that Newline would by now be confident enough in their product to break that rule and use some of the amazing imagery that is right there in front of them! It seems to me that the incredible image of Aragorn on horseback is just BEGGING to be the poster for ROTK. I mean, it's the Return Of the flipping King, isn't it? And there he is coming right at us in full armour + Sword Of Kings + Heroic Horse (the same one that was kissing him in TTT? looks like it...) COME ON Newline!
-
Couldn't agree more, Billy. There should be a ban on floating heads for the duration.... And that Aragorn shot is utterly epic. Better than "El Cid." ('Course, I want equal attention paid to the Ringbearer and his faithful companion, so there may have to be more than one "final" poster.) Which brings me to another pet peeve: movie credits (generally). I didn't realize how ordinary they'd gotten in recent decades since I saw a documentary on the particular artist responsible for the "Spartacus" credits and many others from the late '50s-early '60s. Remember the crumbling Roman busts set to Alex North's overture? How many opening credits these days set the stage with their dramatic power? Not that I think LOTR needs anything other than it had.... ***(I'm going to risk a negative) It really bothers me that in the shot that opens TTT, we are shown a completely different time of day AND landscape than what would actually match the scene with the events in FOTR. What happened to the mid-morning moonscape onto which they should be emerging in roughly five minutes?! Instead, the camera goes in at dawn (or sunset) straight through the rock - and from halfway up the mountain (which shows no sign of an exit, and has a dark, frozen valley far below). If anything, their last dash takes them UP a few more stairs and then out - at a MUCH lower altitude. It just seems to me that they fell in love with the helicopter shot, so much that they were willing to dispense with continuity to use it. (Or unless we are supposed to think the complete lack of continuity is part of Frodo's "dream" - but I don't think I'm the first person to observe an over-reliance on swooping helicopter shots that show off the New Zealand scenery - at the expense of continuity and "matching the map." Would have liked to see far more grassy plains in Rohan, even if they had to do it in the computer....
-
Ooooooh, Daughter Of Time, you're right - that never occured to me about the opening mountain shot - and I've a feeling 99% of viewers won't notice. According to Cinefex, this particular shot was farmed out to Sony Imageworks and involves some composite plates - so maybe they just weren't in tune with the story as much as WETA is....However, such inconsistencies are bound to srop up in a movie of this scale and don't really bother me personally. Agree with you about a poster for Sam and Frodo. My girlfriend remarked to me that LOTR is one of the very few movies not to be ashamed about showing overt affection between men. (which doesn't have to be homosexual etc)
-
Reading/skimming that latest talkback just makes me want to shoot them all.... They are shown four photos that should have their hearts in their throats, and they're off and running on Star Wars vs. LOTR and gay-bashing.
-
... and to counterbalance that other TB. Regarding the Sam holding Frodo shot, you can really see how pale Frodo's lips are (further evidence that he is "dead")... and I just love that romantic streak of dirt on his cheek. He is looking especially elvish, too. And yes, it just frosts me that we have lost the epic tradition of males openly showing affection; it is considered highly attractive by every intelligent woman I know, and is one reason we gravitate to war movies (the one place it is allowed, since they have presumably shown their "manliness" by killing people). Spartacus cradling Antoninus, after killing him to save him from crucifixion... The Captain in "Das Boot" gripping the Chief's shoulder as the sub is sinking.... These are magic moments. As they should be. And it looks like Sam mourning Frodo's death will top them all.
-
Frodo just looks too perfectly, romantically dead. After Mt. Doom, they'd both be gasping their last, sinking down together... not to mention looking even worse than they do here (covered in burns, according to one source), and probably wearing Orc rags. And besides, Sam looks exactly as if he's about to tell Mr. Frodo that once he's finished the job, he'll come back to him....
-
If it were after Mt. Doom, I can't imagine Sam just holding Frodo and not taking care of his hand! ***I am going again in two hours! Huzzah!
-
Just kidding! ;-) AAAH! The warm glow of the TE talkback. No loonies, no idiots, just sensible people engaged in intelligent discourse. It's a pity the UN isn't run by the TEers, we'd have the planet sorted out by tea time and still have time to catch the afternoon showing of TTT.
-
GW:"So, the hour grows late, and Tony the Prime Minister phones the White House seeking my council, for that is why you have called, is it not?", TB:"GW... what are we to do about Iraq?", GW:"Sadam's power grows in his fortress of Bhagdad ...you know of what I speak Tony, a great big Arab bloke, charmless and wreathed in medals", TB:"How do you know these things?", GW:"I have seen them ... on CNN", TB:"CNN is a dangerous tool, GW. You never know who else may be watching!", GW:"Why should we fear to watch it? Besides it came free with my subscription to the Playboy channel."
-
Haven't heard from you in ages! Have you been lurking? ***Had a very hard time not thinking of Sam the Crocodile Hunter as Gollum was biting his shoulder tonight. And honestly, Un!Faramir struck me as more of a bastard then ever... he only truly began to shape up after Sam's speech about Boromir. I did notice Gollum's pupils changing to large as Smeagol and small as Stinker... it's really quite effective as a replacement for the green light in his eyes when he's being nasty in the book. Could NOT spot the cannon-balling orc. Decided maybe the Fell Beast WAS just trying to eat Frodo (though why indeed would the Nazgul be seeming to scan Osgiliath from the air, if not capable of spotting or sniffing what matters most?). I also decided that Frodo not really hearing at least the first part of Sam's speech is a valid interpretation. As he sits there with his chest heaving and his eyes flooded with tears, he looks like it's all he can do to keep breathing, let alone pay attention to anything outside his private hell... and then you can see him becoming aware of Sam, who's trying so hard....
-
DOT, I just saw Das Boot the other day for the 1st time and it rocks! The cannonball orc is (deliberately) hard to spot because he is just one of a whole crowd of tiny orcs in the shot. It's the shot where they are all running TOWARDS the camera and with the water right behind them. The flood catches up with them just as they reach the gaping pit and plummet over the edge. It is at this point that the fun-loving orc decides to go out in style...I can't tell you if this is before or during Sam's voiceover...
-
Has anyone ever tried to take a picture off of a dvd. That is if you ran the movie on your computer and paused it upon a particular scene that you liked and wanted to 'download' that picture. What is the quality? Could you then take it to a print shop and say give me a picture of that moth please. OR the scene where Aragorn kisses Boromir farewell. Hell there could be a million pictures that I could steal...and would it be stealing?
-
When I first saw the tiny November picture, I thought it might be Sauron rising in smoke before dissolving... though probably more likely it's one of the "Dead." ***Billy, once is not enough for "Das Boot" - like LOTR, it rewards repeated viewing, as you get to know and care about every individual crew member.... My sister and I saw it 13 times in its initial release (my previous record until FOTR, and I'm sure still hers). We were completely gripped. And the Director's Cut was the first thing I bought on DVD (though I do NOT like the subtitles as much as I did on the original release, when they were much more colorful and pithy - and truer to the German). For example, in the original subtitles, the Captain refers to the raw recruits as being all "wind and piss" - the Director's Cut has him calling them "blowhards." Other people have also remarked on the newer translation being weaker. (I'm not a German expert, but we did study enough to translate the dialogue. "April, April" had us stumped for a while, until we realized it was the German equivalent of "April fool!")***I do think TTT has made a horrible botch of Elrond's motivations. What, he holds a Council, sends them all on this horrendous quest, and then says, "Let's get packing" before the outcome can be known? And then there's Galadriel, whose one scene in TTT is to spout (false) gloom-and-doom prophecies and then do an abrupt reversal.... Both of their scenes muddy the narrative more than they advance it. (Wouldn't Haldir's announcement be cooler WITHOUT the scenes of negative-Elrond that preceeded it?) If there is any area where I disagree with PJ's interpretation, it's this constant harping on "the world of Men" as being what the evil forces are out to destroy. Whatever happened to "the free peoples of Middle Earth"? Why send an Elf, a Dwarf and four hobbits on the quest, if it's all about Men? I miss the theme of various peoples under siege, as the Ringbearer threads his lonely way to the heart of Evil.
-
Jan 09, 2003 12:52:17 PM CST
Let's see, Walrus, for the arcade there can be some Minas Tirith
by pallando blue
Where you try to land the mutilated heads of fallen men in the highest city rings... There's the Khazad-dum Bungee Drop... The Lothlorien Tunnel Of Love (with swan boats, of course)... The Council Of Elrond Cafe, 20 chairs for every two-foot-wide table and "It's A Small World After All" playing over, and over, and over... Hmmm, still thinkin... Somewhere on the menu, "Frodo-Finger Fisheses Sticks(R)"... Maybe for the parents, Pyre Of Denethor Heated Massage Tables?
-
DOT: Sound points about illogical motivations of Galadriel + Elrond. And THAT is why I try not to think too much about the plot when I watch TTT - it just spoils the fun! Er, can we just say that the elves are wayward and contrary folk who change their minds every full moon? But then again, the light of the Evenstar "does not wax and wane"....Stuck again. Oh well.*****Well, I actually watched Das Boot twice - the second time with the (highly entertaining and informative) commentary from Peterson and Prochnow. The subtitles may be weak but the movie is so powerful it easily overcomes this. Absolutely gripping. They do comment that a lot of the nuances of the accents/dialects are lost to non-German speakers. Always the case if you don't understand the language. Good luck spotting that orc next time!
-
But no doubt they'll do it. As sure a way of killing Tolkien's work as any...
-
...but I could go for a very discreet and luxurious resort, along the lines of Rivendell, with the more modest, adjacent Hobbiton featuring individual hobbit-hole "casitas" among winding paths around a lake, with central pub and a few discreet shops selling only the finest LOTR reproductions (leatherwork, jewelry, Elvish banners, costumes). Of course, none of us could afford what this would cost per night, more than once in a lifetime. The closest I've ever come was the Hotel San Pietro outside of Positano; it makes every list of the top hotels in the world, and is terraced into a cliff overlooking the Amalfi Coast, where the clouds and light are always shifting dramatically. My sister and I agreed it was where we would like to go to die happy.
-
Isn't it really disappointing that Frodo never gets to eat any of it, in the film? His one chance at a hot meal... unless Un!Faramir has fed them, and in that case, I'd like to see it. (I am one with Sam in obsessive protectiveness regarding Mr. Frodo.)
-
Yeah, I was very disappointed in the no-stew as well. Especially since it caused such a fuss in the first place. It looked delicious too. Sam even had some basil or coriander to chuck in - which means that another 5 mins and it would have been ready! Such a waste! Perhaps Faramir let them bring it with them as a take-away but I doubt it! And what happened to the pot etc?
-
BG: oh, I did love the Rankin-Bass Fangorn's leafy breath. It actually would have been cool to see that in the movie, but I can live without it. ***DoT: say, you couldn't send that other calendar coming this way, could you? Naah, probably not. *As for the inconsistency in the opening shot, very true. Of course the actual rock the shot goes through may be very thick, so that when we see the Gandalf/Balrog scene, we've actually travelled a long distance within the mountain's rock. Then again, maybe I'm just trying to excuse everything in the movie. ***I too think that the Sam/Frodo shot is from the near Minas Morgul, not Mount Doom. In addition to the clothing, and Sam not desperately bandaging and cradling Frodo's hand, there's the point of Sam having Sting. I don't think he has it at Mount Doom. I could be wrong, of course. I can't remember right now. ***And after just looking at some illustrations by John Howe, I've got to say that the movie Treebeard is pretty damn identical to a Howe picture in design. I guess the ents are the most clearly Howe-sque aspect of the movies' design. ***Bought the DVD of "Forgotten Silver" today. I do think this is the work that shows PJ's abilities for LOTR the most out of all his previous works: the love of good movie-making with artistic integrity, the love of epic movies, the ability to make a fictional story seem like reality. ***And to get some more discussion up on this board (I'm not going near the TB connected with the ROTK pics until the trolling calms down a bit), I'd like to share some of my ponderings. The subject: the three hobbit ringbearers, Frodo, Sam and Gollum. *The three characters are essentially three sides of one person, and three sides of being the ringbearer. Gollum is corrupted by the Ring, and in the end, cannot be saved. His obsession with the Ring leads him to evil deeds and in the end kills him. Frodo, meanwhile, is slowly breaking under the Ring's power, but in the end (despite being broken) is saved. But his role as ringbearer doesn't come without a price. He is scarred for life and cannot find peace in his beloved Shire anymore. The only release for him is going to Valinor, a fate comparable to dying and going to heaven. Sam, meanwhile, is the only totally uncorrupted ringbearer. He is the only one who can give up the Ring without hesitation, and who doesn't act against his nature or do evil with the Ring. Consequently, he is also the ringbearer who can go home and have a full life and a family, and live a long, happy life. Gollum dies, Frodo is turned into an outsider who finally leaves the world behind after just a few years, but Sam gets a lovely family and a long life. *But if we are to take this examination of the connection of the three characters a bit further, we could say that Gollum and Sam are in many ways the two aspects of Frodo. Their hostility, bickering and fraught relationship with one another show the ongoing struggle within Frodo himself. Gollum is the side of him that is weak to the Ring and its lure, while Sam represents his good side. Sam carries Frodo on to Mordor, supports him when he falters, is always there to help him succeed in his mission. Gollum, meanwhile, sets obstacles in his way, but I think his most important role is in the end. Let's face it, Frodo actually fails his mission. Right at the end, he gives over to the Ring and claims it as his own. But what happens? Gollum takes the Ring and falls into Mount Doom with it. He completes the mission, but also sacrifices his life, in an essence paying for Frodo's failure and saving the mission. That part of Frodo has to die in order for Frodo to survive. *Actually, come to think of it, Frodo is pretty passive on the trip inside Mordor. He hardly says anything, and is often supported, carried or tugged along by his companions. Sam and Gollum, meanwhile, are the active ones in Mordor. They talk, they bicker, they physically scuffle, they are in essence fighting for Frodo's soul. It's almost like an externalised expression of Frodo's internal struggle. ***So, anyone agree? Disagree? Think I'm out of my puny little mind? Think I have way too much time on my hands?
-
...is that wonderful shot they've tantalized us with for the last year, of Frodo and Sam huddled together in the grip of Faramir's men - in which, take note, Sam's pot is on his back - and Frodo is looking exceptionally white-shirted and despairing. Will this appear in the SEV (as did the FOTR publicity shot of Frodo with pipe in the fork of a tree)? Keeping fingers crossed....
-
Your analysis is probably valid, from an overly-analytical point of view (this is why I refused to major in English lit/psychology and majored in equally-useless classics instead), and only breaks down for me because I prefer to see characters standing as their own individual selves and not "representing" parts of another's psyche and having parts of them projected onto others. And I somehow think Tolkien would agree, unless someone can quote a letter to the contrary. So much of his writing is about free will and personal integrity, that I think he would be actively hostile to a "splintering psyche" interpretation. I also think that Frodo is only "passive" inside Mordor if you COMPLETELY discount his ongoing spiritual struggle (which is not taken over for him by anyone else) and his enormous act of will in putting one foot in front of another and finally crawling, until Sam picks him up. Yes, Sam gives aid and comfort and grows spiritually in the process. But he was only a Ringbearer for a matter of hours, and tempted for mere minutes, in a setting where his own simplicity and his love for Frodo were more than enough to compensate. It is nothing like equivalent to what Frodo has endured in physical and emotional scarring.... Furthermore, Frodo succeeds in getting the Ring to the very brink and only "fails" where no one could have succeeded. Tolkien makes this very clear. It is not a moral failure, and need not be paid for by some kind of penance. Frodo has been wounded beyond healing in Middle Earth, but his sacrifice is beyond price, and he is given the reward of Valinor.
-
Jan 09, 2003 3:59:44 PM CST
All TWELVE pics blown up, even bigger and way cleaner! Wallpaper
by pallando blue
Oh, swooooooooneeeeeeerrrs... Here ya go! http://www.elbakin.com/film/images/retour_du_roi.htm *** Now then, it appears our blue-faced November has been finally identified as a plain ol' Orc. (Gotta give a page to the Evil Minions, after all!) That may be only what those Frenchies decided to label the jpg -- oh by the way, annoyingly there's a typo in their url. When you click on the image, and the "page not found" thing pops up, in the url window up top you have to insert the "." before the "jpg" ...Where was I? Oh yes, whether it's really just an orc or not. In the bottom left hand corner, there's a wee little "c" that was left widowed by whoever cropped the scans. My guess, what's missing is "Or". D.O.T., did you get your friend's calendar in hand yet? Can ya confoim? Hello? Anyone there? Oh dear, the ladies have all fainted dead away already...
-
[Cut off, Blue-Orc-like, from previous subject line.] Ah, bitter irony. :)
-
I totally agree. I was going to add that to my post, but thought it was getting a wee bit long. I do think that all the characters should simply be seen as standing on their own two feet, but they three ringbearers are a kind of spectrum of fates. ***Sam and Gollum are very much the active parties (on a superficial level) in Mordor I think mostly because Frodo is so quiet and introverted (as one would be in such a desperate situation), so someone needs to talk and act for the readers to be kept in the story better. But in a way, this supplementary action thus also becomes a mirror of the action taking place inside Frodo. Certainly it's not meant as a straight symbol, but it probably mirrors Frodo's internal struggle very well, and illustrates it for the readers, as Frodo himself is silently going through a kind of purgatory. ***And yes, the quest is impossible to succeed in. But that's the point of the book in many ways. Frodo is, in many ways, a hero that fails, but that doesn't take away from his heroism or the magnitude of his struggle and the miracle of how far he got. But the deck was stacked against him from the start. It was pretty much impossible for him to succeed The fact that he got as far as he did is thanks to his own strength, the love of his friends, and a kind of serendipity (the same serendipity that meant for him to get the Ring), an unnamed higher power. But the fact that the odds were totally against him, that his duty was inherently unfair is, I feel, one of the points of the whole book. In a way, Tolkien seems to be saying that hope, pity and love are more important and greater powers than justice. Bilbo and Frodo's pity of Gollum and Faramir's pity of Frodo are all instrumental in the eventual success of the quest, as is the love between all of the fellowship, especially between Sam and Frodo, and as is the hope all of the fellowship have about good prevailing. "Justice" might have punished Gollum for his crimes, but that would've meant the failure of the quest. Gondorian laws and justice demanded Faramir to take Frodo and Sam to his father. And Frodo's fate is certainly not just. But justice is secondary to the forces of hope, love and pity. ***And yes, I'm overanalysing again, but it's late here and I'm on a roll.
-
... yes I have been lurking. The problem is, just when I think of something profound and insightful to post somebody else posts a more eloquent version first (Damn that high average IQ of the TEers). Yes, I also thought the whole Elrond/Galadriel bit in the middle of TTT was crap and a complete waste of time. I also have the Das Boot Director's cut DVD, it's one of my favourite films (great minds think alike ;-). I don't know about a theme park, but I think it's tragic that they had to demolish the Edoras set. It could have been a fantastic tourist attraction.
-
Calendar is to be mailed tomorrow! I hate to think how many work hours I have already lost to swoonage, and I suspect having calendar at home will no more stop this than finally owning a computer, though I'm getting a little nervous about today, and how little I have accomplished. Good thing I agree with Mithril's last post, so I don't have to debate Frodo's splintered psyche! ***Could also add... Gollum is NOT a mirror of Frodo, though I can see PJ is going to beat that into the ground. Gollum began with murder; he was a nasty little subject to begin with, all-but-friendless for good reason, and he actually murdered to GET the Ring (he wasn't the one that found it). Frodo, by contrast, has lived near Ring-wearing Bilbo for years without feeling covetous; actually handles it when he begins his ownership and is still able to put it aside and forget about it for months/years (book/film version); learns what it is and tries to give it away (to Gandalf); carries it and feels its compulsion, but is still able to surrender it on request (Council of Elrond); months later, offers it on open palm to Galadriel; and ONLY when he has fully claimed the quest (crossing the Anduin) does he become unable to relinquish it. He also shows compassion to the (murderous) Gollum, EVEN when Gollum is actively trying to repossess the Ring and when the hobbits could clearly claim self-defense if they did "tie him up in the cold hard lands" and leave him to die. (Ack! My presence is demanded elsewhere...)
-
I read an article today (I think it was linked from TORN) containing an interview with Andy Serkis. He said that PJ and Fran assured him that the Smeagol/Deagol scene will be in ROTK. Sure hope so.
-
To somewhat continue my last post, note that in the book, Frodo NEVER raises his hand against Sam. In the Tower, he snatches the Ring back from Sam's hands, calls him a thief, and stands "staring at Sam with eyes wide with fear and enmity." That's enough for Sam to drop to his knees, "his face wrung with pain, as if he had been stabbed to the heart; tears welled from his eyes." And Frodo immediately begs forgiveness.... (In answer to your question, Mithril:) Inside Mordor, after Sam finally has time to tell Frodo "all he could find words for" of Gollum's attack, Shelob and the orcs, Frodo tells him to keep the Phial safe for him, and adds, "Sting I give to you.... I do not think it will be my part to strike any blow again." The nearest Frodo comes to any violence toward Sam is when Sam offers to carry the Ring (within a day of the Mountain), when Frodo cries, "Don't touch me!" and "His hand strayed to his sword hilts. But then quickly his voice changed. 'No, no Sam,' he said sadly. '...You can't help me in that way again. I am almost in its power now. I could not give it up, and if you tried to take it I should go mad.'" The conversation continues (rationally) to where Frodo admits, "'No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.' Sam went to him and kissed his hand." This is not Frodo becoming Gollum. He has lost everything but his own will to continue and Sam's very present love - but there is tenderness even in his admission of madness. If only THIS could be considered "cinematic"!
-
1. Moaters, it seems that you are off the hook. E-mail to follow. Please proof read. Very Carefully {;o) 2. Ingold, you are not off the hook. Keep lookin' over yer shoulder! Noone threatens MY Club and keeps their innards, well, in. Which brings me to 3. MorGy, you senile old lump o' coal! Fifty percent (50%) of Club Angband is mine. Don't you think you're gonna muscle me out. Oh, and I wouldn't hook up with that scurvy, good for nothin', by-blow of yours for all the mithril in Middle-Earth. 4. Pallando, I like The Pyre Of Denethor Heated Massage Tables idea. Sounds like a great addition for the Executive Sauna. 5. I broke open my tip jar and ordered the calendar. I just couldn't resist. DoT, you are a bad influence.
-
Jan 10, 2003 2:38:47 AM CST
AWP! pAllando! Just call me knucklehead or on of the Gaffer's...
by skyway moaters
... other disparaging appelations! I never even NOTICED the danged A! DUH! BTW, how did JRRT spell it?
-
DoT: I'm not saying Frodo's becoming Gollum, but it's as if his inner struggle is a struggle between characteristics that are also the dominant characteristics of Sam and Gollum: love, tenderness, hope, commitment and duty vs. madness, weakness, despair, Ring-obsessiveness and violence. In the end, Frodo does succumb to the madness and Ring obsession, and occasionally to despair, and forgets his sense of duty when he claims the Ring for his own, but he still retains much of his better characteristics. *That's it. I think I've said all else in the last two posts about the impossibility of the mission and about the characters. ***But I'd just like to write something I just found in the book "Meditations on Middle Earth" (just bought it, and it's weird, there's even an essay that says somewhat the same I said in my first post). An essay by Michael Swanwick had this interesting thought that in many ways the true purpose of Frodo's quest is that he acts as an unwitting "integrity test". The way the people he meets react to the Ring is important. Gollum, Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, Boromir, Denethor, Saruman, Denethor, Bilbo and Frodo himself are all, in essence, tested. So the quest's purpose would be "to test all creation and decide whether it's worthy of continuance." I don't know if I totally agree with that, but it's an interesting point.
-
I wasn't so much continuing a debate with you, Mithril, as offering evidence that Jackson is presenting a rather extreme view (or seems to be going in that direction) in his take on Gollum as mirror of Frodo. The quotes were specifically about the book Frodo, and he (Jackson) has already gone WAY beyond book Frodo's behavior toward Sam even in complete extremity. Not sure, however, that you could consider putting on the Ring "forgetting his duty" - it's more like being overwhelmed by a hostile force, or (as Tolkien put it) breaking under prolonged torture. Also, as far as Sam representing Frodo's goodness, or Gollum his despair... this is where I reject the English lit. analysis, because Frodo (as a whole, integrated character) has too much of both goodness and despair in his own make-up for us not to see it unless it's physically projected onto another character! Interesting point about Frodo acting as an integrity test of other characters, which I do think is true (and I have read that, too). Of course, anyone who isn't immediately in sympathy with him would lose points with me, in any case!
-
I thought the film did an excellent job of portraying Gollum's wiry and almost-unnatural strength, especially when wrestling with Sam and Frodo, and pulling Frodo out of the marsh. Can see why Sam would want to keep an eye open at all times, as unless the promise on the Precious holds, he's a real threat even with both wide awake. And that's not even mentioning his nassty pointy teeth.
-
Well now that DOT has started the ball rolling on wobbly plot points in TTT, I can't help but be bothered by Wormtongue's failure to spot the ten thousand ROARING APES outside his window. Luckily, I have a theory to cover it: From the looks of him I'd say Grima sleeps till very late in the afternoon and has just gotten out of bed when we see him in Orthanc. Saruman is a bit of prankster who has ordered his orcs to assemble SILENTLY whilst Grima slept - all for the purposes of a gigantic practical joke. It is this 'gag' and others that finally cause Grima to shove his employer out the window later on. I've also been wondering about that hanky that Grima carries around with him - something to do with his weepy eye, I suppose. Oh, here's a prediction: I bet we get to see Sauron in the flesh in ROTK. In FOTR he was "not yet able to take physical form" but no doubt, ol' conjunctivitis-head will be strutting his stuff in the final act. ****** Just saw Gangs Of New York. Question: when did Scorsese become crap?
-
How does Faramir know that Gollum's "My PRECIOUSSSSSS! GAH!" refers to the One Ring? I mean, really, that's one big intuitive leap... given that he doesn't know anything of Gollum's history (or even what he is), that he is in any way connected with the Ring, that the hobbits are connected with the Ring, or even that there IS a Ring, though since Boromir seemed up to speed at the Council, maybe things lost weren't all that forgotten, after all. In any case, Gollum's speech quirks can't have been known to many: Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo and maybe a few of the Wise. It doesn't seem likely they would be general knowledge to the Rangers in Ithilien. And then, they talk about the Ring in front of the whole merry band! Aside from the dangers of Ring-covetousness arising in the ranks, this means that any ONE of Faramir's men could be captured, and the secret would be out. Or, the ones that make it back to Minas Tirith could tell their wives, a few of their best friends... "You know, we had our hands on the Ringbearer, and the Captain let him GO! Yeah, that's why his life's forfeit.... No, I couldn't believe it, either."
-
...just the editors knife. I can't imagine being Faramir and this wretched creature screems "Myyyy Precioussss!!" and I don't ask him what the hell he's talking about, and I would wring the answer out of him by whatever maeans necessary. It just happens after the cut...
-
Funny thing, it took the Dark Lord's Best to get two words out of him... I can't imagine Faramir getting a good answer in a hurry. Though he obviously did, or he wouldn't have gone straight to the Ring with nassty cold steel.... It certainly put a new spin on the Captain of Gondor showing his "quality." ***I just re-read that whole section of the book, and aside from the joys of the Faramir I know and love, I was struck by a couple of things. One was Faramir's speech about the Rohirrim: "...we love them: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed and strong...." Note, VALIANT BOTH ALIKE - not cowering and wailing with gaping mouths and acting UTTERLY HELPLESS. Why couldn't THEY have been throwing stones from the battlements? What of Eowyn's speech that made it sound as if she was NOT the only woman in Rohan to know how to use a blade? I found myself being embarrassed for them, with their "We're safe, milady!" and their sackcloth and bad wigs. I want golden-haired, bright-eyed and strong WOMEN!!! ***Second point: Faramir and Frodo have been having a serious conversation for a while, when Sam perks up and turns the conversation to Elves. He talks for something like a page and a half before blurting out about the Ring, and gets an aghast "Sam!" from Frodo, who "had fallen deep into his own thoughts for a while, and came out of them suddenly and too late." In other words, Frodo doesn't always pay attention when Sam is speaking, even in a fairly fraught situation - though I would love to know what his thoughts were, that he was so deep into them.
-
... Gollum would be just as supicious of Faramir taking the precious as he was of anyone/everyone else. And I agree there was a bit too much wailing going on among the Rohirrim. The only caveat I have is that Rohan is a feudal society. It is doubtful that Faramir would know any Rohirrim personally other than nobles, and at the risk of appearing politically incorrect: it's perhaps a bit more believable if you consider that the ones doing the blubbering and moaning are mostly "peasant" women and children. Are these rather large departures from the source? Yes. Do they lessen my enjoyment of PJ's creation? Not one whit. I hope they doint spoil it for you, and am sorry if they do...
-
Jan 11, 2003 8:12:03 AM CST
DOT, can you not see that Elanor is wearied by your malcontent,
by billy budd
Aaaaaagh,DOT! Where are you going with all this? TTT is a crap movie? Is that it? It won't be long before you're telling us George Lucas kicks PJ's gay ass!....Just kidding. There are many movies out there - even the best ones - that are full of inconsistencies and plot holes if you look at them too closely. In the end you just have to decide to ignore this and enjoy the movie for what it is. I get the strong impression that your enjoyment of TTT is hampered by your love of the book. Frankly, comparing this movie to the book is just not helpful. In order to adapt a book for cinema, you have to throw the book out the window. Strong men and women of Rohan undaunted by a legion of menacing orcs just doesn't create the same sympathy as cowering peasants who are about to be annihilated. For the purposes of a blockbuster movie everything HAS to be exaggerated and polarized to generate drama and tension. So TTT may not make any logical sense from the point of view of the novel - but in cinematic terms it works perfectly well - which is why the public are responding so strongly to it!
-
Having said that, I am a bit bothered by the fact that the Rohan women aren't shown as more pro-active. I applauded the fact that PJ had Arwen stand up to the Nazgul at the ford - an improvement on that section of the book in my opinion. And yes, after Eowyn's speech about the women of Rohan being able to use swords you would expect them to defend Helm's Deep too. But then you wouldn't get the tear-jerking scenes of cowering women in the caves which PJ had his heart set on.
-
I have to second what MorGoth is saying. Yes, there are plenty of things in TTT that stick in your throat, particularly if you've read the book. But in the end, the movie is done and dusted and.......there's nothing we can do about it. So now we have a choice: to accept it and enjoy a terrific action/adventure movie or to torture ourselves over something which we can't control...
-
But that's just the trouble, Billy - I did NOT find the cowering women tear-jerking. I found them annoying. (As have plenty of other people.) They sucked me right back out of the movie every time they appeared, and it has NOTHING to do with them not being the heroic Rohirrim of the book. They wouldn't have to FIGHT to be heroic. They could look grim and tight-lipped and pale, and clench a household FORK, for God's sake, and I'd be feeling WITH them. It's not because they weren't straight from the book, it's because they were a cliche I've seen in too many OTHER movies, and I wasn't expecting that from THIS movie. As for not liking other changes... I think I understand book-to-film adaptation as well as anyone here. I do not expect line for line, or scene for scene. I approved most of the changes in FOTR. But if something doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for me, and no one can "argue" me into being moved by something that failed to move me or that truly bothered me (as opposed to carrots in the rain, or Faramir instantly understanding "MY PRECIOUSSSS!"!). I have seen this film six times, and after a year on this talkback, I think I've earned the right to comment honestly about what I liked AND DIDN'T LIKE about this film. I thought 80% of it was perfection, and have been doing my share in ranting about THAT, as well.
-
Whoa, DOT, No-one's trying to make you like what you don't like - but what can anyone do about it? The movie's already out there. As I said round about viewing #3 (way above somewhere), I regretted that this movie had been significantly dumbed-down. Scenes like the cowering women are exactly what I was referring to. But now after viewing #5 I have decided to like the movie and not complain any more. It's just a glass-is-half-full way of looking at it. I have decided to look at the cheesy parts with a sense of humour. I still have the book and that's not going to go away. And as well as that, I have to accept that the movie is not made just for me. I am something of a film snob. But I have talked to people at work who have seen TTT - and they think it's one of the best movies they've ever seen. They have NOT read the book. They are regular people who work long hours and go home to their screaming kids. TTT is exactly the kind of movie they WANT. Uncomplicated, bold, nice to look at and with clear signals as to who's good, who's bad and who is under attack. So whilst I don't find the cowering women + children tear-jerking either, the general movie-going public finds this easy to relate to. For the people who have never read the book and are never going to (who are probably the majority of the tarket audience) the image of cowering women and children comunicates the situation clearly and powerfully. It's no accident that during the World Wars, propaganda always revolved around images of women and children - "The Germans eat babies!!", "If you tolerate this, your children will be next!!! etc etc. These are the stock hot-buttons to signal danger and threat to the populace. So this is what Jackson uses 'cause he wants to appeal to the broadest audience possible. And it's working! I keep comparing this movie to Titanic for that reason. Remember the scene of a 'peasant' Irishwoman reading a bedtime story to her children as the water crept into their cabin. Same thing going on there. I'm just glad that PJ throws in the odd iconic moment now and then, which elevates this movie a little bit above your standard blockbuster.
-
Billy, you seem to be saying - no, you ARE saying - that if I can't change anything about a film, then my having opinions about it and expressing them is without purpose, which would invalidate any film criticism, or for that matter, pretty well do away with any analysis of any work of art. Or for that matter, any honest discussions between friends. You seem to think that if I love something as a whole, I am spoiling my own enjoyment by giving voice to any problems I may have with it. Well, I don't agree with you. I also think there is a difference between iconic and cliched. And I will always be more deeply moved by the B&W "A Night to Remember" than by "Titanic." ***And MorGy: what do you mean, make up my mind? Make up my mind about what? If you will re-phrase the question, I will attempt to answer.
-
Hmmmm, I thought I'd give this TB a try to see if it was possible to have a good humored and anger-free discussion about TTT. But I find this TB a bitter and unfriendly place. I'm reminded why I stopped coming here in the first place. Well, you can stick to your ugliness, folks - without me, though - I don't want any of that stuff sticking to ME!
-
Right, until i get bored of it, i'm gonna put a gollum quote in the subject line instead of racking my brains over witty comments. Billy, come back here, and DoT, don't even think about not critiscing if you see something you don't like. i think i partly agree with both of you on the rohan women issue. i understand it's meant to be emotive, but it was slightly annoying to see all the women weeping piteously as their teenage and child sons were taken off to be armed. when an older woman in late twenties is probably goning to be a better fighter than a twelve year old boy anyway!***Mithril, you've got an interesting idea with the gollum and sam reflecting an outward struggle of what's happening to Frodo, but i would disagree with your idea that hope is as important to the resolution of events as love pity and loyalty. Hope can go either way, be used as good or can be misleading. that much is clear in mythology. but i do hink that Frodo is a strong enough character to display his conflict alone.**** i'm offically swooning for pippin right now, and i want someone to confiscate his scarf, he's better without it!
-
MorGy, it still seems to me that when Eowyn says that women of her country have learned that even those who can't use swords can die on them, and then brandishes a blade, it translates to me as ..."so the smart ones among us have learned to use them (not just me)." This is going ONLY by the movie, and of course it's just my interpretation. (Or are we supposed to think that instead of a land of equally valiant men and women, we have a country where only the royal family has managed to produce a few with some spunk in them?) Theoden, who is not all THAT old, once he's been exorcised, says he's been through many wars. (I'm paraphrasing here.) Which - put with Eowyn's line - ought to mean that the women of Rohan have some real experience with being under attack, and shouldn't be acting like sheep being herded by the few calm heads among them. When I see adult women cowering in caves while their 12-year-old sons are being armed in a DEFENSIVE situation, it makes me nuts. (And by the way, as a lifelong amateur medievalist, I can tell you: women under siege did NOT do nothing while the men fought.) Why was it alright to have Arwen rescue Frodo and brandish a blade, and Elves to show up at Helm's Deep (one of my favorite parts of the movie, by the way), but we can't have a few females other than Eowyn that shut their mouths and pitch in to help? They could boil water and wrap bandages, if that's all they are up to. As far as Eowyn's future actions, I don't know how the movie is going to handle it, but I thought Tolkien was actually disapproving of her going off with the guys - but like many other things in the novel, it turned out for good. I seem to recall her being gently chided a bit by Faramir for folowing her heart and not her duty - which is how I saw it. She had been left IN CHARGE, and instead chose to disobey and fail her duty to her people so that she could wilfully do what she wanted to do, and go in pursuit of death and glory. It wasn't so much: you can't come, you're a woman, as: you're the only member of the royal family that can rule in the males' absence. ***I am ALSO going by my own experience, both with a blade (once, at St. Andrews, I did a feint and lunge and ended with my foil in a perfect arc under the armpit of a male Texan with about a foot longer longer reach then me - and it was such a purely beautiful moment I realized the joy would have been the same if I'd actually killed him in battle) and also, in the few situations where I genuinely thought my own life was in danger, I did NOT react like a cliched (or iconic!) "threatened woman," but got grim and purposeful and kept my head, even if I felt like throwing up afterward. My sister, also a strong woman, agrees with me on the Rohirrim women issue, as does the woman I attended my first showing with - that we really are tired of women being portrayed as crying and clutching each other when in danger, and we didn't expect to find it in TTT, though neither did we expect some revisionist women-fighting-equally-with-men at Helm's Deep. Just some quiet dignity and purposefulness, such as one would expect of a warrior people.
-
From my point of view, I was rather shocked to have you come down on me so strongly for my negative views, when we seemed to be aligned about quite a few other things. I certainly don't think that there is anything wrong in posting opposite views. There's probably nobody here I always agree with, or who always agrees with me. It's when a discussion shades into "how dare you think this/spoil my enjoyment by saying this" or the equally offensive, you don't "get it/understand the difference between book and film/see what PJ was trying to do" that I get up in arms. I don't think anyone here - including me - is slapping you down personally, but if you come down on me for MY views, you shouldn't assume I won't debate yours. And a talkback that was uniformly "Praise PJ and all his works!" would be distinctly creepy - to me, at any rate.
-
I hope DOT the shield maiden hasn't dispatched Billy permanently with her nifty sword work ;-) Anyhoo, good discussion all round (although a little heated :-)
-
I just wanted to thank all of you for your insightful and informative views. I'm definitely not a diehard fan of Tolkien ( I'm just a green lizard ), however, these TE discussions have been a richly rewarding experience for this Tolkien newbie. I've been lurking around here for several months now and I thought I'd pop in and tell you how much I appreciate all of your TE contributions. But as a way of introducing myself, I thought I'd share a few tidbits with all of you: I've just finished reading LOTR for the second time; I've seen both FOTR and TTT three times in the theater; I own the EE of FELLOWSHIP and prefer this version ( I give it four out of five stars and I expect I'll do the same with TTT: EE ). If there is a four-hour version of FOTR released, I'll be there! On a similar note, I can't wait for the extended edition of TTT -- plus a four-hour release version of ROTK would be supreme. Regarding these film adaptations, more is better in my opinion. Personal "swoon" moments: any scene with Arwen. Be seeing you!
-
The offending article has been read, duly noted, and earmarked for the trash bin. Also, one very angry email has been dispatched to The Times. What a load of trite and condescending drivel. "Because actually, guys, women have heard of the books, even though we probably didn
-
Nah, I'm not going to read the article, it would clearly annoy me too much. So books are wasted on women, eh? Charmed, I'm sure. Anyhoo, just to chime in on this, that, and t'other... I always assumed that Faramir kept questioning Gollum after he screams about his Preciousss. It just wasn't necessary for the viewer to see it - we already know Gollum means the Ring, it would have been a waste of valuable screen time. And the impression that I took away was that Sam and Frodo could hear this going on - hence their escape conversation. Exactly how Faramir could have gotten Gollum to pony up so much info without torture is another question again. Canon!Faramir is strangely prescient, and sifts Gollum quite quickly in the book, whereas Un!Faramir maybe *did* torture him, it's hard to say. As for the Rohan women, they never bothered me - they are essentially farmer's wives, and to be honest their husbands probably aren't much handier than they are. In an Anglo-Saxon-based community like that, most of the fighting would have been done by the chief and his clients and their clients and so and so forth. So while the occasional high-born chick can swing a blade, it's unlikely that the local peasantry of either sex would even have access to something as expensive as a sword, which was a luxury item well into the Roman period. It was a different kind of warfare back then. When Faramir speaks of the Rohirrim, I don't doubt he's referring to the fighting noble classes, which is where his acquaintance as the Steward's son would probably lie. So none of this ever bothered me, particularly. I have my own little niggles, which bother me - like Sam talking back ("Offering sauce") to Frodo. I know that it's hard to film the parts in the book where Sam has internal debates regarding the wisdom of bringing Gollum along, but still, this doesn't sit right with me. And I also want to add, scarfless Pippin was indeed very cute. Personally, this pervy hobbit fancier can't wait for Armoured!Hobbits. That ought to be fun. Hmm. If anything were to be considered almost as affecting from a swoony standpoint as a white shirt, it would be armour. Oh yes, indeedy. Oh, and it's our birthday today, my love, and we wants a present...
-
Happy birthday alice! And hello to captain Gorn! i'm gonna wait to read the article so i don't annoy anyone whilst i'm shoting at the computer. lessons much learned. But why would a woman write that?
-
...And forget about gettin' 'em to read! ;) Heh, not being of the offended gender I look forward to the guffaws reading that article, and am already mentally toting up them fair distaffs of the weaker sex to e-mail the link to. It's a twisted sense of humor that enjoys fomenting outrage, I'll admit! :) *** Anyway, just a quick pipe-in on the Wailing Women of Rohan. Firstly, I pretty much agree with Alice's assessment, AND secondly I also agree there were probably two or four too many shots of the weepers and despairers. But what I wanted to remind y'all of was that one particular shot in one preview or another, of Eowyn in the caves, coolly with blade in hand as an Orc creeps about the other side of a stalagmite... Methinks you'll get some shots of the women (well, at least Eowyn) putting up a small stand in the Caves come November. Chalk up the cut to editing and pacing? Won't really know how or where it was going to fit (or what type of scene it was to be, really--furious action, quiet taut suspense, both?) until the SEV arrives, I suppose. *** As for gaffes, are the Hornburg and the Caves connected in some way? Or how does Aragorn, when he asks if there's another way out of the Caves for the Women and children to escape, plan on getting the women and children the order? Of course, I could be mistaken. ...On a side note, Gamling says, "yes, there's path from the Caves that leads deep into the mountains" or some such. Right, and it goes to The Paths of the Dead I betcha! Just thinkin thinkin. *** Some other movie topic I had a thought on, but it's disappeared like rain on the mountain, into shadow. *** How do, Captain Gorn, feel free to remain unlurked I hope. And I agree completely. To quote my inestimable self, "...anything with more sheer-gowned pointy-eared Liv talking contralto Elvish is Good Vittles." :) *** Happy birthday, Alice! And so in the true Hobbit fashion I say, before Ingold beats me to it: Where's my present?
-
What does it mean then that I share a birthday with Britney Spears? *** I saw T2T for viewing #5 Saturday, so I did my part in the war effort. Er, it was a matinee, however... Augh! The guilt! Number 6, full ticket price, coming up! *** "Carpal Tunnel Vision"--HA! Beautiful! :)
-
[TRYING AGAIN--TRIPLE-POSTING?!?] But seeing as how the AICN server's acting wacky at the moment I wouldn't be surprised if I'm suddenly... FRIST!! *** Actually, since I gotta retype from scratch I suppose that technically it'd be less a "double-post" than it is "tediously redundant"... [NOPE, PROBABLY A DOUBLE-POST] *** Enough with my belly-aching, on to the box office comparison. At box office mojo dot com there's side-toside comparisons of both LOTR movies vs. the SW prequels http://www.boxofficemojo.com/ franchises/vs-lotr-sw.htm and vs. the Harry Potter movies http://www.boxofficemojo.com/ franchises/vs-lotr-hp.htm [NOTE spaces after both .com/ 's] ...And it is interesting to watch the parallel box office of FOTR and T2T. Makes me think I better start checking Fandango.com NOW, every hour on the half-hour, for ROTK tickets....
-
...most people never see ANY movie 5 times. And yet here we are, friends, getting testy with each other and nitpicking ad-nauseum over a movie we obviously like at least SOMETHING about quite a lot. There's no such thing as a perfect movie, much less a perfect adaptation. The goal is to come as close as possible. The outcome of any film project depends on a million little details, and the personal tastes and interpretations of the filmakers. To criticize their choices is an exercise in futility. TO criticize or praise the end result is perfectly reasonable and is to be expected. BUT, said praise or criticism depends entirely on the persoanl tastes and perceptions of individual viewers. Is someone going to seriously try to tell me DoT won't go see ROTK? Time to chill Tolkienoids. I don't understand hostility over this stuff. Fister's sitting across the room lovingly stroking TATOW (Yeeuch!), iffen ye catches mah drift ayuh... Apparently he's hostile towards hostility. Trubba Not.
-
...that in the SEV after Eowyn dispatches that Orc in the caves, she turns to the other Rohan women and says, "Well girls, it looks like meat's back on the menu!" ;-) Did anyone else notice that in FOTR Gandalf says "Fly you fools", then falls, then Frodo yells "NOOOOOOO!". But in TTT Gandalf says "Fly you fools", then Frodo yells "NOOOOOOO!", then Gandalf falls (this is for obvious reasons). Also, the biggest plot hole in FOTR(the movie), IMHO, is that Gandalf knows that Gollum was captured by Sauron and that he tells him "Shire, Baggins". How does he know this?
-
...I don't think you were being overly hostile towards DOT, but I can also see how it could be misinterpreted as such. The intent of posts are frequently misinterpreted. It just goes to show how much we rely on vocal inflection and body language to get our message across (Which is why we have to draw a face to show intent(which you did):-). I guess the main thing to remember is that, no matter what anyone says, we are all friends here. Group hug!! (There morGy, how's that for PC? ;-)
-
.... for rolling out that welcome wagon for this reptile dude from another franchise! Happy Birthday, Alice! I'll send you some delicious gorn grits for a present ( much better than lembas! ). Pallando -- I'm right there with ya on that wonderful quote of yours concerning our beloved Arwen! But not to ignore Eowyn: I wanted her to swing that blade and kill plenty of orc and I didn't gets it and me wants it -- NOW! I can't wait until November! I just can't ........ ARRRGH! In the meantime, I'll be there again at a matinee this weekend. I just gots ta see Marilyn MonRohan ( I can't believe I missed her! ) and that cannonballing orc!
-
No, I haven't been sulking, just impossibly busy at work, and too stressed at the thought of continuing to work for the new boss that I can't even sleep. People keep wandering by to sympathize and tell me they've never heard anything but good about me from any of the partners, so it's not that I'm being punished... so why AM I being forced to do slave labor for a woman who lives on caffeine and adrenelin and has no life? If only I could challenge her to a duel.... ****And now, a big welcome to Captain Gorn, and a big Happy Birthday to Alice! And MorGy, no offense taken here, but I will say - Elanor interprets me correctly as to Rohan women. No direct fighting demanded; just less weeping and wailing. But... why are these "peasants"? And if they are, where are the others? You know, the non-peasants, the other members of the court, the people living in the royal city, the wives of Eomer's loyal band? That's part of my annoyance: it's all sackcloth and bad wigs for them, all multiple changes of gold-and-velvet for three people. My own impressions of Anglo-Saxon society (and I don't think it's meant to be an EXACT parallel) is that it was pre-feudal and therefore, a bit more egalitarian than the Norman feudal system. As in Scotland, where in medieval times, they had 1/5 the population of England, but five times the numbers of the "nobility".... And the King was considered head of the people, not the owner of all the land (hence "King of Scots," not King of Scotland). But lest I become pedantic.... A big swoon for Theodred's bedroom! I just loved the floor, and another great wall hanging, and all his various belongings. Clearly, the prince had taste. I hope there's a few seconds more of him in the SEV, where I do indeed expect it all to come together. ***Does the 6th time I went last Wednesday count for the weekend? Actually, if I remember correctly, FOTR held the top spot for four weekends, but TTT is predicted to surpass its total in two more weekends. I will do my part. Yesterday, I saw "Adaptation," which was brilliant for the first 90 minutes and sagged a bit (for my sister and me, anyway) in the last half hour, but is well worth your money. I'm hopelessly behind on other movies, since I would still rather be at TTT than almost anything. (Its 80% perfection still beats 100% of most movies of the last few decades.) ***Elanor, I printed out your long post, and it ran to almost three pages, so I'm not sure I can touch on everything, but I am with you on Sam's brush-off, Legolas being given his due, would indeed like to think the Nazgul is being drawn, glad Aragorn finally borrowed some clean clothes, Gollum's tail-wagging "We've led you out!" (and the look Sam gives him as he scrapes by him).... However, nothing "willful" about genuine disappointment. It's just there. Trust me, I didn't work at it. ***No, honestly, I did assume Faramir got more out of Gollum than we see on screen, though I also think Gollum wouldn't be all that quick to elaborate.... Could be a reason he's SO bitter at Frodo's seeming betrayal, depending on methods used. I do think that quiet scene between Frodo and Sam is one of the best in the film. Elijah just nailed it. If the SEV adds more like it, it will tip the balance back to the 95% approval rating for FOTR. ***Speaking of still-my-favorite-film-of-all-time, one of the things that impressed me about FOTR was how well they did manage to match the light in almost every scene - when so many films with outdoor settings don't even try (and which TTT has considerably more problems with). I was REALLY impressed with the last half hour of FOTR, when the lighting remained consistently late afternoon and slanting from the west. Mountains being in the wrong place (such as leaving the Shire) bothers me less. But as long as the camera was going to swoop right through the rock to the Bridge of Khazad-Doom, how much more wonderful it COULD have been for us to see the exit door and moonscape around the corner. (For that matter, it would have been rather cool if the beginning of the scene had been Frodo's p.o.v. - though then we'd miss watching his gut-wrenching "NOOOOO!!!") ***Well, I go back and forth on Galadriel. Yes, she does ultimately hint that Elrond should get involved, and it's certainly a plus that her line about Frodo is altered from the preview - it's about time SOMEONE thought about him! - and perhaps the line IS meant to raise doubt about Frodo's condition after Shelob (my calendar still hasn't come!) but she does seem to be uttering false prophesies about the Rohirrim. And it's hard to get around the way Elrond in particular is so eager to turn out the lights on Rivendell.... (Frodo is REALLY going to have to scurry, if he's worried about Arwen missing the last ship!) ***And lastly, yes, the other races ARE intimately involved, which just makes it the more odd that we keep getting these "world of Men" lines. The Dark Lord, at least, seems to bear them all equal animosity - elves, dwarves, Men and hobbits. **MorGy, so you don't think I should be talking about equally valiant men and women because the line's not in the movie? OK, but if we're talking about the spirit of Tolkien, never mind the letter of the law, these people are supposed to be rather special, an IDEALIZED warrior people, if less rarified than the Numenorians. ***Never thought it made heroes shine the brighter if their followers were dull.... Lawrence of Arabia had Omar Sharif and Anthony Quinn. Spartacus had John Ireland and that cocky little guy, even if Antoninus was more decorative than useful. And I hope Eowyn has a couple of good-looking friends brandishing forks behind the stalactite with her! ***I just caught a show on the History Channel yesterday, all about how various nasty weapons evolved to counter knightly armor, and most of them seemed to have been suggested by peasant tools, such as hooks and flails. Where WERE the men in the village being overrun by Hillmen, we wonders? ***By the way, my fencing teacher (in a moment of camaraderie) once demonstrated to me the maneuver by which, with a flick of your wrist, you tug your opponent's foil from his hand and make it go flying, and - after a long speech about how many people never COULD pull it off and not to feel discouraged if I couldn't get the knack of it - she let me try it, and I did it in one - and then did it again just to prove it wasn't a fluke and that she hadn't been making it easy for me. We were both rather stunned. This was my Second Most Satisfying Fencing Experience, after potentially skewering the tall Texan. And I really have no idea how I did it; it was indeed a kind of instinct. (And by the way, lest anyone think I'm an athelete, only at 20 did I have knees that would stand up to that kind of punishment. If I tried a simple lunge now, I'd be crippled for weeks.) ***More than willing to go for seven this weekend, as I simply cannot bear that a truly awful comedy (according to all reviews) can have topped TTT at the box office. ***By the way, I just finished rereading "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol," and I really do think it may be my favorite chapter. Aside from Frodo and Sam, there's Morgul Vale and - oh, I hope we see something like this in ROTK! - that wonderful bit where Frodo's will is not even tempted to respond to the Ring's call, but he still sees his hand moving toward it, and DOES will his hand to close around the Phial and so breaks the spell. It's such a powerful little moment (not to mention a good reminder about the hitherto-forgotten Phial), and I would love to see something like that to counter the idea that he has somehow become completely helpless against it. ESPECIALLY post-Nazgul.
-
....why?
-
The other day, my sister (who has seen TTT twice with me) asked, "So it is me, or does Frodo's hair keep changing color?" Probably we've all noticed...but is it the lens filter or the lighting or did they deliberately use different wigs for subtly different moods? Because it really does vary quite a bit, from dark brown to dark auburn to black, and while I can imagine dark brown/auburn merely being a difference in lighting or film processing, I don't see how that same color could look black. It's quite obviously dark brown in the calendar photo, where his head's lying back across Sam's arm (sob! swoon! you can just see the dead weight of it, convincing Sam he's really gone....), but it looks black when he's going into the Nazgul-trance. This is NOT a criticism, just an observation. I don't notice quite the same variation in Sam, but then...ahem... it could just be that I'm not quite as fixated on the details of our little Croc Hunter. ***Am definiely read for a spoiler picture or two of Merry and Pippin in martial garb. ***And I do know how to spell "athlete." Really.
-
Thanks for the birthday greetings, guys - your presents are... um... in the post. And I share a birfday with Orlando Bloom - who knew? He's a nice boy. I liked him on the divida commentary - he's always full of this kind of chirpy enthusiasm for everything ("Oh, this is soooo cool..."). My favourites were the Hobbits though. Anyhoo, saw TTT again on Saturday (along with GONY and 8 Mile - weirdly themed day's movie viewing - the theme was "rabbit abuse". In GONY, people hang dead rabbits on spears and railings, and call themselves "The Dead Rabbits". In 8 Mile, a character called Rabbit gets the shit kicked out of him. In TTT, some rabbits get stewed with some herbs in Ithilien. If I'd've seen "Donnie Darko" on the same day it would have probably driven me over the edge. If only they had been white rabbits, I could have followed them into Wonderland.) Anyway, all of these movies rocked and I'd recommend all of them. That said, I'd be surprised if GONY won 13 oscars or whatever it was, so I think morGy is still good for his beer from Miss Aura. Regarding Frodo and his amazing multi-coloured barnet, I think that's a lighting thing. Those wigs are real human hair (from Russians, I seem to recall from the divida) and caucasian human hair is rarely purely dark, but tends to have red/brown lights in it. This is why hair dyed black looks awful against a pale face - dyed hair doesn't reflect light the way natural pigments do. I do think he has two wigs though - happy go lucky Hobbity curls from FOTR and "I'm getting my arse kicked from one end of Middle Earth to the other", slightly more defeated, flatter, and dirty-looking hair in TTT.
-
...and you've been infected. I always thought I was a purist canon nazi, but clearly I'm a backsliding decadent recidivist because I am never bothered by the fact that the Gandalf/Balrog battle exterior at the beginning looks like it's happening at dawn and not matching the light when they come out. And in any case, whose to say that they didn't cry for six hours? The orcs don't do daylight and wouldn't have followed them out. Likewise on all of the map references. The fact that Frodo and Sam appear to be on the wrong side of the Anduin at Osgiliath does bother me a little, however. The Anduin is kind of like the Rubicon in terms of the Quest, in my view, and nipping back and forth across it seems unnecessary, in my view. Oh, and SWOON UPDATE - Alice Is Currently Swooning Over: Frodo vs. the Nazgul. Still. Sorry.
-
Jan 14, 2003 12:38:17 PM CST
Just my 2 cents on the whole Women in Combat thing,
by conan_the_humble
For the life of me I cannot understand why any woman would WANT to be in the front line of combat, especially in the Infantry corps, knowing a thing or 2 about it. It's in the family as you might say... People shoot at you for gawdsakes!!! Everything you own has to fit into a pack (and you have to carry it yourself over VERY long distances.) The shoes you have to wear are VERY unattractive, the clothes you wear aren't particularly flattering. You do get to wear make up, but it's a choice between Light Green, Dark Green and Brown, or combinations of same. It is hot sweaty extremely ardous and dangerous work even when people aren't trying to kill you. Quite frankly, there's much better jobs around that pay better and provide better conditions. That's the way I look at it anyway. I find it rather funny when people try to tell me that women should be 'allowed' to be infantry soldiers. I don't know and have never met any woman who actually WANTEDto be an infantry soldier. I have known plenty of female soldiers and NONE of them have wanted to be in the Infantry. I HAVE however met many people who have never been in the Military who insist it's a woman's 'right' to be in the infantry if she wants. To me it always seemed like the Month Python sketch from 'the life of Brian,' where Stan aka 'Loretta' wanted to have babies. " From now on I want you all to call me Loretta." "But why do you want to be called Loretta, Stan?" "I want to have babies." "You want to have babies?" "But you can't have babies!" "Don't you oppress me!" "I'm not oppressing you, Stan. Where's the fetus gonna gestate, you gonna keep it in a box?" "Suppose we fight for his right to have babies." "What." "Suppose we fight for his right to have babies. We agree that he can't actually have babies, which is nobodies fault, not even the Romans, but that he can have the right to have babies!" "We will fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, Brother! Sister, sorry." "What's the point?" "What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can't have babies?" "It is symbolic. It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression." "Symbolic of his struggle against reality..." Just felt like throwing in a bit of Python. Oh, finally saw TTT for the 2nd time today. Liked it more than the first time. Not so bothered about Faramir. Still not entirely impressed by some of the changes though. Welcome Captain Garn. Cheers.
-
I'd register a new handle with every single post forevermore, each with a slightly different misspelling of "Pallando Blue." Smartasses! :) *** Jumping subject tracks here, had a thought on viewing #5 concerning Un!Faramir, that I hadn't seen come up before. With all the kvetching on how what a jerk the movie Faramir is, don't forget that FRODO broke his trust first. Faramir's still (rightfully) trying to figure out if these are spies or not, when Frodo denies any knowledge of Gollum--lies, right to his face (and let's face it, he's a pretty poor liar. Much to his credit I suppose). So, at the Pool, Faramir calls him on it, forces his hand, and confirms that this little fellow lied to him, and let's Frodo know he knows as much, all in one quietly arched eyebrow. In the book, Frodo always maintains a very agile tapdance [reminds me, saw "Chicago" ...meh. >shrug< "Adaptation," however, yes, genius!] ...but while book-Frodo's careful to hide what he can, he never outright lies to his captor. Canon!Faramir sees this and respects this, "You spoke with great care in a tight spot" etc. Un!Faramir was fed a whopper right out of the gate, and, really, acts accordingly. Not that it's exactly a "better" characterization, just saying that there IS a logic to his behavior toward the hobbits. Watch the incremental progression of information he gets from them through the rest of the movie. First he's lied to, and then all the hobbits do is yell at him! Why should he trust them? But the info they drop gets more and more dire, and seeing as how they were such bad liars before, now it's starting to sound like they ain't lying. The look on Faramir's face is constantly one of reluctant listening, of slowly being convinced they're telling the truth. But it takes eyewitness evidence to not just convince him they're telling the truth, but to agree with their mission. A 2-step process necessary for them to be let go. Also to acknowledge they were justified in deceiving him, which is hard for anyone to swallow, especially (I'd imagine) a military officer. ....Well, rambling redundantly as usual, so I guess to sum up: Say what you will about Un!Faramir, but you have to lay the same character-rewrite complaint at the feet of Un!Frodo first. (What would Canon!Faramir have made of being baldly lied to?) That, I'd be quick to agree with. Anyway, something new to ponder on our next viewings, eh? I'd be curious of y'all's assessment of that assesment. *** Okay, lunch is over, gotta split til tomorrow. Oh yeah! Other reason for Aragorn's separation from the group, he has to witness the encroaching army, report the numbers and ETA for that night. Later! --Pallandeaux Bleu
-
i did like the fact that even on the rocks below he golden hall, they'd put a shed up. just goes to prove you can have one anywhere! And yes, aragorn finally gets a wash. it's not a clothing inconsistency though. saw the film again yesterday and was looking out for it. he's just got his tunic and cloak over the top, so you can only see a bit of the front of the mauve shirt.
-
Pallando, I'm not sure where "breaking trust" comes into it, when your interrogator has captured you, roughly thrown you to the ground a couple of times, bound you, blindfolded you and carried you where you don't want to go. No moral imperativeness toward truthfulness THERE, any more than there would be toward any other kidnapper. So I'm not going along with the "Frodo lied first" argument.... Trust has to be earned (as it is in the book). Frodo isn't quite the pathetic liar Sam is, though, with his eyes shifting to Frodo to make sure he's got the lie right! ***Conan, this is one woman who's going to wait for war to come to her. I don't go anywhere without good plumbing. Besides, you all have much better upper body strength.... On the other hand, it's not fair to send others where you wouldn't be willing to go. Wonder what would happen if every time they declared war, there was a lottery forcing one in ten members of Congress and Cabinet to go along? We might see a lot more scrambling to find peaceful solutions.
-
Just finished re-reading TTT last night, and those last chapters really give the lie to anyone who thinks Tolkien is only beloved for the detail of his backstory or vivid imagination. Sentence for sentence, it's some of the finest descriptive writing I've ever come across, both for the horror and the beauty (the various ways the light of the Phial shines through Frodo's - and later, Sam's hand - for example. This shield maiden will go to war if Frodo is denied his amazing heroism against Shelob, though. After not giving him his moment on Weathertop, or at the Ford... and I suppose his dragging Sam to his feet and willing him forward inside the worst stench of the lair will be too subtle to portray... but I MUST have the phenomenal courage of his determined advance toward Shelob, with both Sting and Phial blazing away, and Sam in awe and wanting to tell the Elves so they can make a song about it! Stars and glory, indeed! For that matter, he's pretty amazing scything away at that web across the entrance.... And I do love the word "fey" being used properly, as a kind of joy and energy usually granted only to those fated for death. Thus, when Sam agonizes that his master is in a "fey mood," he is not just being ordinarily anxious, but senses the worst kind of disaster.
-
First, I wanna note that I'm just debating for the sake of debating here, and that I really reeeaallly hope Faramir gets a solid SEV treatment that fleshes out his character better, makes his actions more palatable, like Galadriel in FOTR. I don't think he's fundamentally so different from the book only going by the very little we've actualy seen of him, just that there's too little to determine that for sure one way or the other. And I like giving 'em the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, just trying to argue the screen-logic some; even if we're not on the *exact* same page, DoT, we ARE reading the same book. ;) *** Anyhoo, you're right, "break trust" was a sloppy, incorrect choice of words. I meant more that Frodo was the first to be false. Even if he fears for his situation and the quest, he at least knows the Men of Gondor are not the Enemy. He just watched 'em slaughter the enemy. They're ignorant of him and the Ring, and should probably stay that way, but they aren't the Bad Guys. A potential threat to the mission, to be ditched ASAP, but not bad guys. Faramir, however, doesn't have that benefit of the doubt. I think in the book (correct me faulty memory please!) they parley some right on the spot when the hobbits are found, establish identities somewhat, and THEN the skirmish with the Southrons, and then the forced hike (they were hardly Faramir's invited guests, despite being treated less roughly) to the caves to keep on the move, regroup and resupply, etc. In the movie, though, that Faramir just slaughtered some Bad Guys, and THEN found two strange halflings. But these Gondor Berets stay on the move like the book Gondor Berets, so instead of sitting about right there by the battlefield to interrogate, he takes the hobbits with them, in the only way he reasonably can, bound and blindfolded. Yes, that scares the bejeezus out of the hobbits, but it's hardly an unjustified act on Faramir's part, knowing the very little he knows. Er, which is nothing, really, until he gets them to the caves and starts the interrogation. Which is when Frodo says to his face, "Third companion, bug eyes, walks on all fours, anorexic, talks in the third person? Never heard of him." From there, see my above argument. Frankly, I'm not sure why PJ/FW/PB/SS had Frodo tell that lie in the first place--except to set up his getting caught in it later at the Pool, to sow that distrust I've been talking about. There's no real reason for Frodo to deny knowing who/what Gollum is that I can think of. Doesn't jeopardize the mission anymore than they already are, except maybe to keep Smeagol free from a hunt. Is the question put to him in the book, before Gollum's discovered at the Pool? (I can't remember!) But instead of trying to explain as vaguely as he can that he and Sam are Good Guys too, and so the Men need not worry about the weird skinny guy either, he takes the quick and "easy" way out and fibs--hardly showing his own quality. Un!Frodo gives movie-Faramir nothing to work with! [Stands, officiously holds jacket lapels] So, good people of the jury [makes dramatic eye contact over his spectacles], I say to you that movie Faramir is only so varied from his novel counterpart [pointing to the sky] in that the different timelines of their respective events [milks the giant cow!], and the changing of FRODO'S actions [points a "J'accuse!" finger in the hobbit's direction!], by the editors and writers, respectively, necessitated. [Takes seat, takes drink of water with trembling hand; chokes and coughs as he reads the unparseable horror that was the previous sentence] Um, call for a 24-hour recess? :~)
-
If only to research the nifty line where book-Faramir tells Frodo he's already decided he's a good guy, before they ever get them to the cave. Yes, he's still angling for information, and Frodo's still withholding, but as far as what Frodo IS, in himself, his instincts tell him that the little guy's solid, though he doesn't know yet whether to speed him along on whatever errand he's on - or to keep him from getting into deeper trouble. ***It isn't so much that I think film-Faramir is inconsistent, as that I miss the swoonage factor. So far, he's shown plenty of sense and some decency, but not much warmth or empathy. But then, maybe the people of Minas Tirith won't react with quite such strong emotion when he's wounded, either.
-
Yes, it was a bit of a jar to have Frodo actually utter the Lie Direct, but I think we are back to the question of whether long stretches of interesting interrogation are "cinematic" (which I think they are) or have to be dispensed with (which was apparently the filmmakers' idea). And for shorthand, I think if I and my sister had been kidnapped, we'd probably try not to involve third parties. (Nyah, nyah! You MISSED one of us!) Given his experience with Boromir, the mere fact that these men are Gondorians and have been seen in action against the Enemy would not lead directly to trust. There are two other reasons for lying: Gollum free might actually help rescue them (if only to keep the Ring out of worse hands than Master's) and also, Frodo might be afraid that Faramir might be quicker to hurt or kill Gollum than themselves (after all, Sam would have been quite ready to do it, and he's a seemingly kinder person than Faramir), and so his motives are protective. I do agree that Faramir's eyebrow-list and raised finger are as close as he comes to swoonage... but he loses it with that Mighty Gift line. Ugh! Without that, one might at least pretend he was starting to have some real understanding. And after Frodo's frantic pleas on the trail! (Sound of DoT's blade being loosened in its sheath, itching to give Un!Faramir a good smack for that.)
-
Interesting article and a rather cool little photo of Frodo looking at the Black Gate here: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,406318~1~0~oscarracebeginswholl,00.html The critic seems to subtly back my own thinking, which is that the Academy is saving up the big award for ROTK next year. Too many people in Hollywood genuinely love LOTR for it not to win; I don't care that it's a fantasy film. But they also probably think three years in a row would be a bit much, when they have their own projects to push....
-
Jan 14, 2003 8:40:07 PM CST
Dufusyte Reviews The Two Towers [repost from "Harry Marvels at T
by dufusyteii
Yes, I finally saw it. The first hour is simply masterful, hopping from story line to story line, like an artist who puts a dab here, a dab there, or a conductor calling on one instrument then another. The new characters helped *alot*. King Theoden holds the screen in the palm of his hand every time he appears; Eowyn provides an emotional attachment with the audience that PJ often has difficulty communicating; Gollum turns in one of the best performances of the entire cast. These three charcters are a big boost to the film. Wormtongue is also excellent in his creepy way, and Eomer and Faramir are serviceable enough. ******* The score continues to rock mightily, and the cinematography featured a number of unforgettable shots which I have forgotten since they were so numerous. All in all, a better film than Fellowship. I could go on in a vein of praise, but let me nit pick since there is always room for improvement. ******* Emotion. PJ (or the film editor, or somebody) just does not have the knack for portraying sincere heart rending emotion. For example, the young lad being pulled from his mother's arms to fight at Helms Deep, or the Death of the Elf Dude at Helms Deep: these were potentially heart rending vignettes, but they just do not have the emotional punch that they could have had in the hands of another director. When the Elf Dude dies, I have to ask, "Who cares?" We never bonded with the elf dude, so we don't really care when he dies. With the mom & son it is similar, perhaps: we never particularly bond with them, so when they are torn apart we do not care. There needs to be a shot where we bond with them, like a closeup of their face as they exchange a look we identify with, and then show us the tragedy. See how Cameron handles such vignettes in Titanic (did I mention it is the greatest film of all time?). For example the elderly couple lying side by side in their bed as the waters of the sinking ship rush in to drown them in their cabin: isn't the shot of the tragic waters *preceded* by a shot closeup of the couple exchanging a tender glance that we can all identify with, and then the camera pulls back to reveal the tragic waters? So first you have the closeup shot where you can bond with the people intimately and identify with their mind and heart, and then you have the wider shot where you see the tragic event engulfing them. When PJ shows emotional events, they are always shown from a safe distance, and we are spectators rather than participants in the emotion. Plus there is always the sense that he is one step away from mockery, as with the Olympic Orc running with the torch to light the bomb at helms deep. Come on, are we supposed to laugh at that guy or feel the horrible suspense of the moment. It makes the blowing of the Wall a comedic punchline rather than a heart-rending blow to the defenders. Similarly with Gollum being almost shot by the archers at the pool: the comedic lines of Gollum are funny, but they break the emotion of what could otherwise have been a very emotional scene for him, where the poor fellow is almost shot down in cold blood. The director seems a bit uncomfortable showing truly emotional moments, and is always ready to crack a joke to break the moment. TTT is more emotionally sincere than Fellowship, but it is still somewhat emotionally guarded, and mishandles what could have been its most emotional vignettes. ******* Arwen's Immortality Crux: ok, there was plenty of focus on this crucial aspect of the love story, and Elrond's narrative accompanied by the images of Aragorn dying certainly got the point across that Aragorn would die, but what remained confusing is Arwen's fate, because the film seemed to be showing that Arwen would continue to live immortally as a widow forever in MiddleEarth, wandering the forests alone. Now, that would be a touching destiny in itself, but that is not what Tolkien says. He says that Arwen will herself *die* if she weds a mortal, and *that* is the painful destiny she embraces. This still has not been communicated clearly by the film. The audience knows she is an elf; they know elves are immortal, and based on the images of Arwen walking mournfully in the forest, they conclude that her fate will be an immortal widowhood in MiddleEarth. As I said, that makes a good story in itself, but it is not Tolkien's story, and I'm not sure the filmmakers were trying to give such an impression. ******* TTT attempted to clear up another cloudy issue from Fellowship, namely the relationship between Frodo and Sam as Master/Hired Hand. True enough, Sam says point blank, "I'm his gardener," but the audience in my theater laughed at the line, interpreting it to be a sarcastic remark by Sam. "Are you his bodyguard?" asks Faramir sarcastically; "No, I'm his Gardener," replies Sam (sarcastically). So this line, just like Sam's line in Fellowship, "I was just trimming the hedges" comes across as a sarcastic joke, and the audience still does not believe that Sam actually *is* Frodo's gardener who trims the hedges. The audience believes the two hobbits to be peers; to be close friends. It would be more touching if the audience knew that they were Master/Servant, because then the fact that Frodo befriends Sam becomes all the more touching. The journey is one of Sam being elevated from the status of Servant to the status of Friend. This progression is lost on the audience because they believe the Sam already enjoys Friend status from the beginning, so there is really no *development* in the relationship between Sam/Frodo, other than that they move from Friends to Good Friends. It would be more touching if they moved from Servant to Good Friend. ******* Some clips in the trailers were better than in the film. For example, the shot of the armies assembled in front of Isengard, where the camera pulls back through the spears and banners. In the trailer the camera pulled back at a breakneck pace (very fast) and it added tremendous excitement to the shot - one of the classic shots of all film making! But in the film, the camera moves much slower (it seemed to me at least), and the leisurely pace lost the fabulous energy of the shot. Another example, the trailer where Eowyn and Aragorn clash swords, and without any dialogue being spoken they exchange glances, and she looks at him with love in her eyes, wide open like a deer caught in headlights, like she is a girl who has never been in love and now Girl sees Boy for the first time, and Aragorn without a word shakes his head no, as if to say, "Do not love me," and then Eowyn looks back at him with eyes wounded and questioning, Why Not? This was another classic of filmmaking - a fabulous romantic exchange, all conveyed without words, masterfully! That was the trailer. But in the film, the scene is much different, much less powerful; there is dialogue, and the scene is not about the love relation of Eowyn/Aragorn, instead it is about Eowyn's aspiration for glory on the battlefield (which nobody cares about except perhaps some literally "militant" feminist), and the powerful romantic moment has been frittered away into something very much less emotionally powerful. ******* TTT was, however, a more sincere film than Fellowship. The scenes between Arwen/Elrond were fabulous (go Liv!), and alot of the cast turned in heartfelt performances (mainly the new characters, Eowyn, Theoden, Wormtongue, Gollum). The actors who were in the first film (Gandalf, Gimli, Sam, Frodo) never seem to be taking their roles very seriously, and their performance was not heartfelt in Fellowship, nor in TTT. Frodo always looks like he is about to crack a smile and his mind seems to be on surfing New Zealand as soon as the shoot wraps. Sam seems bored with the film and seems to be thinking, "Are these the best lines you can give me?" Gandalf is wondering, "Is playing a wizard too corny for my career?" and Gimli sees his part as "just another comedic role" rather than being on a life threatening quest. They all do OK, I suppose, but Fellowship needed a few actors with more heartfelt sincerity like Miranda and Mr. Theoden (forget actor's real name) have. TTT strikes a nice balance between heartfelt sincerity (new characters) and people who do not take the film too seriously (old actors from Film One). ******* Oscars: Gladiator was an action flick that won best picture because: it had a tragic melancholic ending, and Crowe died. If Crowe had not died, Gladiator would not have been Best Pic. A Happy Triumphal Ending reduces a film to mere Action Flick, and removes it from Best Pic Eligibility. So far lotr has fallen into the Star Wars syndrome of having a happy triumphant ending: the defeat of Lurch in Fellowship, and the defeat of Saruman in TTT (btw, thank you for not skewering him. It's much more exciting to have him running scared in his own tower. Btw, I was expecting to see the Ents topple Orthanc; why was that not shown??). So Film One and Film Two are both basically films about Sad Hopeless Quests, but they both end on a Happy Triumphal Note. Ending on a Happy Note removes them from Best Pic eligibility. The twist will be Film Three, which is about the *Triumph* of Good, which will hopefully end on an unexpectedly sad and melancholy note, with an epilogue (preferably all shown in images and music, without dialog - like in Titanic, did I mention it is the greatest film of all time?) an epilogue that shows Aragorn's death, Arwen's melancholy widowhood and Death, elves slinking away foresaking MiddleEarth, a Shire that is Scoured, and yet will never be the same even though it has been scoured, etc. There needs to be a very melancholy epiloge at the end of Rotk in order to finally get PJ his much deserved Best Director award. Everybody should leave the theater crying, and there should be a sense that even though Sauron has been defeated, the magic of MiddleEarth has died, and the grim era of Man is beginning, and it is an era without the magic and charm and grace of the prior world. So in a sense, all has been lost. The Baddie has been cast out, but also all Charm has left the world, and all that remains as the curtain closes on Film Three, is the bleary dawn of the age of Man - not an Era of Peace and Happiness, but a bleary dawn of warlike man.
-
Over at TORN there is a story from a German LOTR fan who took a guided tour of New Zealand. He/she states during this story (which at one point was guided by the guy who played Gamling in TTT, thus lending some credence to her claims) that they were shown the Mountains where the door of the paths of the dead were filmed. Cheers.
-
Jan 14, 2003 10:24:02 PM CST
I am Gorn! That's G-O-R-N -- ya know as in chop off the first th
by captain gorn
And I'm damn sure that's just how Gene L. Coon ( the true genius behind STAR TREK ) came up with his militant reptile alien in that classic episode, "Arena." Speaking of being 'militant,' I truly care about Eowyn achieving her glory upon the battlefield, but I ain't no radical feminist ( 'cos I'm a freakin' green lizard from beyond the stars! ). I'm just a ( gorn ) guy that wants Eowyn to slash plenty of orc with her blade! Why? 'Cos I think it's most righteous n' cool! Plus I grew up watching Emma Peel kickin' ass on The Avengers television series. Talk about a THE female role model from the 60s, eh! Emma had it all ! But I digress .... In other words, I empathize with Eowyn and her desires for valor and I'm a ( gorn ) man. Is everyone okay with that? Dufusytell? Hello?
-
John Cleese as Ann Elk and her brontosaurus theory on Monty Python. I also agree with your new Arwen theory in ROTK. I pray this comes true! Be seeing you!
-
But first, wow, if anyone ever thinks I was hard on TTT, read the above. Don't think I'll respond, however, as you all know which few points I might agree with, and which are fighting words.... However, I promised to quote Faramir's line just before Faramir "requests" that Frodo and Sam accompany him back to Henneth Annun: "'Whatever befell on the North March, you, Frodo, I doubt no longer. If hard days have made me any judge of Men's words and faces, then I may make a guess at Halflings! Though,' and now he smiled, 'there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air, maybe. But more lies upon our words together than I thought at first. I should now take you back to Minas Tirith to answer there to Denethor, and my life will justly be forfeit, if I now choose a course that proves ill for my city. So I will not decide in haste what is to be done....'" Aside from the obvious - that he no longer doubts Frodo, that he smiles at him, that he detects Frodo's "elvishness" (if Frodo is a test of people's goodness, then a consciousness of his "elvishness" takes them one step higher) - we also learn that though Faramir's knows his life will be forfeit if he makes a wrong choice, it is his city - not his father's favor - that he thinks of.
-
God, time flies when you're having fun. I might treat myself to this again on Friday night. But what will I do when ROTK comes out and there's no more? There will be a little false dawn while I wait for the extended edition, but after that, all that will be left is a life of despair, anguish, and sleeping in doorways clutching a half-empty bottle of meths. Ah, the life of a Tolkien Crack Whore is a hard one. Perhaps I can cheer myself with the thought of a Michael Bay directed version of "The Hobbit". Presumably starring a shrunken down Nicolas Cage or Vin Diesel as Bilbo Baggins.
-
Your's was a mildly interesting read, I don't agree with all your points, I do with some. The reason Orthanc wasn't shown being 'toppled' over by the Ents was the fact that the Ents never did topple over Orthanc. Orthanc due to some power of the Numenorean's was impervious to anything they might have done to it, by the Ents. That was how Saruman managed to survive the destruction of Isengard. Also you don't seem to be able to make your mind up. Are you coming here to discuss this movie or are you seeking to get a rise out of us? You have demonstrated considerable knowledge of LOTR on previous occasions, but then state you were 'expecting' Orthanc to topple. Why? Where had you heard this? I regrettably did not remain spoiler free for this movie. If anything I went silly reading every review on this site and many others. Looked at every picture and viewed every trailer and never saw anywhere that Orthanc itself would be destroyed by the Ents. From this that I can conclude only that your recollection of the story is mistaken, and that seems unlikely given my earlier comment or that you are intentionly trying to bait us. If so, well done, you have succeeded. Cheers.
-
Much less time to milk giant cows today, dagnabbit. But, wanted to rejoinder atcha real quick-like, DoT. :) Telling quotes indeed, but they also serve my argument somewhat. At that point in the book, Faramir and Frodo had already had a bit of a sizing-each-other-up parley, right? He doubts Frodo "no longer" (so he did before), he can judge the Halflings' "words and faces" (having heard and examined them), and "more lies on their [earlier] words together than [he] thought at first." Movie Faramir has had no such luxury, and must postpone his judgment of Frodo until the sancutary of Henneth Annun. And that's when Un!Frodo ;) goofed up, underestimating Faramir's quality right off the bat. He hasn't had much to go on to be sure, but he doesn't have to assume Faramir's wholly untrustworthy. Where'd HIS judge of character go alla sudden? As much as I love PJ's (and Elijah's) Frodo also, he IS vastly different from book Frodo, going all the way back to Weathertop. *** Now then, I completely agree that there was absolutely way too quick a turnaround from "a mighty gift, a weapon in this war" to "you know what? you can go." Which is mostly because "great weapon" was a notch too far to come back from. Although I still hold out that there's lots of room in the editing to (re?)insert additional character moments/dialogue to temper Faramir out a bit, put us in his POV rather than only seeing him from the scared-hobbits POV. Which I think that long wordless hold on his stoic face, after learning he's Bormir's brother, was intended to do. Just falls short, unfortunately. OH YEAH! Almost forgot to mention! Who else remembers this? There was one of those Leo Spoilers way back when, in which it was disclosed that Faramir was given Sam's lines regarding the fallen Southron (in truncated form, no doubt). The "Who was he? Did he know who the Bad Guy was or was he deceived? etc." monologue. [Actually, on first viewing I suspected Sam was going to have a "stare wonderingly at the corpse" moment when the fella falls off the Oliphaunt in front of them, and just before Frodo says "Sam! Shake yer bacon, we're outta here!" But I digress. As is my WUNT] ...Which would go a long way to make him a Conflicted Good Guy rather than a Potential Bad Guy, ness pah? Alas. C'mo-o-o-on SEV! The other speech that'd go a long way toward tempering one's opinion of Faramir would, obviously, be the "I don't love the sword for its sharpness, only the city which it defends." A version of that would DEFINITELY go over well in Osgiliath! And nicely mirror Sean Bean's great "I wish only for the strength to defend my PEOPLE" [slams down the firewood!] Buuut, never heard boo about that speech one way or the other, written, shot, cut, or not. Here's hoping... *** Miami Mofo, sorry 'bout that! I never saw your initial mention of Forod's Lie [which is now starting to sound like it should be followed by "BUM BUM BUUUUUH!" in the Tailend Soundtrack. My bad.]. My bad! :) *** Hey, where's INGOLD? He's been holding out on us! I'm around halfway through the second History of LOTR and it turns out he really IS the hero! "Wall-builder" my shiny blue arse, that name's got a PAST!
-
Jan 15, 2003 11:33:45 AM CST
Of course, Forod's lie [Buh-buh buuuuh!] is nowhere near as trag
by pallando blue
...as Fodor's Lie. "You call this a four-star hotel!? Wraiths screeching at all hours, the stables raided overnight... This 'Pocket Guide to Bree' SUCKS!" ...Goddamn typos. Sigh.
-
That Faramir has had no real time to assess Frodo and Sam in the film before Frodo lies to him, but then... what does he expect? He doesn't even bother to take the hobbits to his (off-screen) curtained alcove to make discreet inquiries. No, he starts right off in front of the whole gang, never thinking that if they DO have some legitimate errand in Ithilien, it might be secret enough for them to worry about spies in HIS ranks. Which makes at least as much sense as his thinking these transparently non-Orcs could be spies for Mordor. (And especially given that Faramir, of all people - and I know it's not in the movie, but I think we should assume SOME connection with book-Faramir - should know something of hobbits, if anyone in Gondor does. And really, his men don't act all that amazed by them.) As for Frodo's assessing Faramir's face and manner, his face doesn't do a lot for ME on first glance, nor does his manner, and I should think it would do less if he'd just roughed me up a bit and hauled me around blind-folded. I think we badly need that missing speech, or a maybe some true solicitude for a wounded subordinate, or some kind of shorthand that would humanize Faramir for Frodo and for us, because what he mostly shows is military efficiency, and that, in itself, would not lead to confessions in a tight place. Without explanations that are not offered IN THE FILM, I don't think his face is particularly expressive when he says that Boromir was his brother; for all we know, they could have been bitter rivals, or Faramir could have been the favored one and suck-up (which the Mighty Gift line lends credence to), or he loved him but it doesn't mean he's more than average decent, himself. The look he gives Frodo is what you might call a Significant Look, but it's also unreadable. Somehow, Sean Bean's Boromir could smash kindling in front of the Ringbearer (and try to throttle him!) and still have my sympathy, not to mention deep sobs at his death; Faramir, at this point, has yet to get the sympathy chords vibrating.
-
YES!!!! I have indeed been wondering all along how Gandalf (or anyone else) could know what happened in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, or even that Gollum had been captured, without serious inside information. ("I was a Mole in the Dark Tower.") How did Gandalf learn of "Shire! Baggins!" and warn Frodo in less time than it took for the Nazgul, exploding out the front gate, to reach the Shire? We most definitely wonders.... ***And Alice, thanks for the speculation on the wigs (though the change in highlight color is still amazing). At Halloween, two different women at the office wore cheap black wigs, and it was truly awful how it aged them.... (Especially scary, since they are both about my age.) I wanted to take them aside and beg them not to do it again.
-
Jan 15, 2003 8:48:42 PM CST
I am Gorn, not Garn! That's G-O-R-N -- ya know as in chop off th
by captain gorn
And I'm damn sure that's just how Gene L. Coon ( the true genius behind STAR TREK ) came up with the name for his militant reptile alien in that classic episode, "Arena." Speaking of being 'militant,' I truly care about Eowyn achieving her glory upon the battlefield, but I ain't no radical feminist ( 'cos I'm a freakin' green lizard from beyond the stars ). I'm just a ( gorn ) guy that wants Eowyn to slash plenty of orc with her blade. Why? 'Cos I think it's most righteous n' cool! Plus I grew up watching Emma Peel kickin' ass on The Avengers television series. Talk about THE female role model from the 60s, eh. Emma had it all! But I digress .... In other words, I empathize with Eowyn and her desire for valor and I'm a ( gorn ) man. Is everyone okay with that? Dufusytell? Hello? ; ) **** Greetings, Frija! May I please have my bonus points for getting the Monty Python reference last night? It was John Cleese as Ann Elk explaining "her" brontosaurus theory. I also agree with your new Arwen theory concerning ROTK. I pray this comes true. **** Are any of you as steamed up as I am that there aren't any Warg plush toys available? Sheesh. **** I vote we all move over to that silly Sauron discussion thread, too. Be seeing you!
-
I always assumed that events played out in the movie the way that they played out in the book. They're just not shown, as this would confuse the non-cognescenti. On the FOTR:EE, with the maps, they make plain that Gandalf goes to Rohan before heading back to Rivendell. This isn't shown or alluded to in either movie. After Gandy finding Isildur's diary, he would have gone looking for Gollum. As he tells Frodo, "I looked everywhere for the creature Gollum, but the Enemy found him first." Presumably he did this looking after going to Gondor. Doubtless he (and Aragorn) did find Gollum, after he "escaped, or was set loose".
-
Obviously, one thing we have to throw out the door is any real worries about distances/travel times in the film(s). Otherwise, Nazgul erupting on VERY urgent errand from Dark Tower would beat Gandalf (not on Shadowfax) to Frodo's door, if Gandalf (or Aragorn) still has to learn of Gollum's capture (and release), track him down and interrogate him, etc. (Actually, I thought the 17-year gap in the book was equally implausible, in the other direction.) And you truly can't stop to worry about other Ents appearing in minutes after being summoned by Treebeard (and when they've already voted NOT to get involved). ***Funny thing, isn't it, how people use BOTH the "it must have happened off-screen" and the "but we must only go by what we see on-screen and judge the movie separately" to make their points. ;-)
-
It's still killin me! :~D *** Well, d.o.t., I guess we'll just have to agree to... well agree actually. You're right, across the board! Blasted woman. ;) Actually, I just enjoy pointing at people and yelling "J'accuse!"
-
Jan 16, 2003 5:28:57 PM CST
DoT Dances the Happy Dance all the way back to work!
by daughter of time
The calendar came! And it is UNBELIEVABLY gorgeous! I don't even mind that I paid for it. Swoonage on every page, give or take Gollum and the Orc... (and I don't know, maybe if you were a female Orc, this one would be pin-up material...). Best picture of Faramir I've seen yet, behind Denethor - some real intensity there at last! Not Un!Faramir! As for Aragorn, and Frodo and Sam, and Frodo wielding Phial... (clunk!) Nothing posted has done it justice. It came sandwiched in the heaviest cardboard I've ever seen, in perfect shape, on elegant paper, with a gorgeous cover, and inside, a waxy parchmenty paper with this: "The board is set... The pieces are moving... We come to it at last. The great battle of our time...." Gandalf
-
Whichever is the shortest and off the board.
-
And a good thing too, because I just went to Sauron, and was going to say that it still offends my delicate sensibilities.
Readers Talkback
User Login
Top Talkbacks
- Whitney Houston 1963 - 2012 -- 419 total posts 209 posts
- WTF HOLLYWOOD: SOLARBABIES -- 131 total posts 129 posts
- Herc’s Seen Tonight’s Return Of THE WALKING DEAD!! Discuss Also DOWNTON ABBEY, FEAR FACTOR, PAN AM, ONCE, SIMPSONS, DYNAMITE, LUCK, SHAMELESS, BAIT CAR, THE GRAMMYS And More!! Sunday Is Sweeps Day 11!! -- 123 total posts 122 posts
- New JUDGE DREDD post production footage pops up -- 124 total posts 58 posts
- There's a STAR TREK video game that is going to lead into JJ's STAR TREK 2 apparently... -- 191 total posts 47 posts
- Avid Comic Reader Hercules Does Battle With Tedium During Kevin Smith’s COMIC BOOK MEN! -- 43 total posts 43 posts
- If the Behind the Scenes Pics of the Day drops her pen, pick it up, but don’t look at her legs or else it will be on your record. -- 60 total posts 42 posts
- I am The Behind the Scenes Pics of the Day! No, I’m the Behind the Scenes Pic of the Day! -- 27 total posts 27 posts
- To Commemorate The 3D Release Of STAR WARS EPISODE I: THE PHANTOM MENACE, George Lucas Wants You To Know...Greedo Shoots First!! -- 506 total posts 26 posts
- HANNA's Saoirse Ronan to boss around seven little people -- 77 total posts 24 posts