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BUFFY 7.10 Spoilers!!

I am – Hercules!!

Herc’s at Butt-Numb-a-Thon, spending time in Austin away from the computers and the VCRs and the thing and the other for once, so no reviews this week for “Firefly,” “Alias,” “24,” “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” etc. etc.

But to make up for the lack of Coax’s traditional Monday-morning “Buffy” report, here’s a load of Thursday-morning spoilage on 7.10. It’s big stuff, so inviso-text is invoked:

* Giles is not in the teaser. He shows up at the very end of Act I.

* First, Willow tries a locator spell and is overtaken by The First (“Cool effect!” notes our objective spy) but Xander saves her by smashing the cauldron.

* Giles shows up moments later with three potential slayers. He says they are the only ones left. Buffy asks if the others have been killed. “Along with their watchers," notes Giles.

* The First, he says, wants to kill all the slayers and potential slayers. There's very little info on The First, but what the council had, Giles swiped before the building blew.

* (One of the potential slayers actually handles this swiped info. As long rumored, Giles does not touch or move things. Is he really a manifestation of the First Evil? The First has so far impersonated only dead people; is Giles really dead?)

* Giles to Buffy: “You're the only one who has the strength to protect these girls, and the world, from what's coming.” Adds Xander: “But no pressure...”

* The uber-vamps (yes, there’s apparently more than one) are the vamps that vampires fear, Giles says. Until now - having seen one - he thought they were myth.

* Meanwhile, the First, in Drusilla-face, seems to be trying to drown Spike. (Which is nutty, since vampires don’t have a lot of use for air.)

* Here’s how it ends. One of the slayer-trainees gets killed by an uber-vamp, who also nearly kills Buffy. At the end, the Scoobies (including Giles) and the surviving slayer trainees admit they don’t know how to fight The First. Buffy at first underscores everyone’s frustration, then resolves to take the offensive. "We just became an army. We just declared war. Any questions?" Executive Producers Joss Whedon Marti Noxon

If you’re lucky enough to have a ticket to ride? See you at BNAT 4!!! Herc returns to the Coaxial next week.

I am – Hercules!!





To order BBQ aprons, bibs, clocks and special edition BNAT lunchboxes adorned with the image of a green, differently abled “Buffy” fanatic, click here.

Readers Talkback
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  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:40 a.m. CST

    Cheers!

    by GeneralZoddd

    Thanks Herc! This season is actually shaping up to be my favourite yet! I would suggest to anyone who gave up on this show with Season 6 (yes it was badly handled) to tune back in because it is ALL happening! Just hope that they haven't peaked too early. General Zoddd!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 5:28 a.m. CST

    impersonating the dead

    by Latenighter

    It may be splitting hairs, but technically Buffy isn't dead. Not now, at least. So it's not true that The First has so far only impersonated those who are dead.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 6:31 a.m. CST

    Thats the thing with Joss's Vamps

    by Qwerty Uiop

    They don't stick to the rules much. Ever notice how Spike and Angel will stand in a window full of sunlight, all the fucking time, and not seem to give a shit?

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 7:21 a.m. CST

    Extreme geekyness ahead

    by FatXander

    ok, this is extremely stupid, but in Becoming II when spike chokes drusilla, he's probably just cutting off the circulation to her head. We obviously know that vamps have working circulatory systems, so it's more likely he's getting her to pass out by cutting off the blood supply to her head. And Giles better not be fucking dead. I'll be really pissed off.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 7:39 a.m. CST

    Its true

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Giles is dead, its a big twist that we're all not supposed to see coming. Don't be fooled!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 7:43 a.m. CST

    Yeah but...

    by Ryo

    If Spike was cutting off Dru's circulation, that implies that her heart is beating, which they make a big deal out of (Buffy says that she felt Angel's heart beat back in Angel S1 etc.) I think it's just that they don't follow the rules (just like with the SiT)

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 8:36 a.m. CST

    Inviso-Text.

    by Valrist

    Ok. When did everything Buffy/Angel spoiler related become Inviso-Text only? Can someone please turn that OFF? Please...PLEASE! We all know it's spoilage. Nasty, rotten, spoilage. Oh, and $750,000/episode for the Buffster to do another season sounds good to me. She has my blessing.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 8:56 a.m. CST

    GIles is not dead

    by jerkstore

    Does anyone remember the upcoming show Ripper that Joss says he still wants to do. Kind of difficult if Giles is dead. He fine, don't worry.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 8:58 a.m. CST

    If he's dead...

    by RobertVanGraham

    ~FIRST POST EVER!~ If the G-man is really dead, I think that will be the proverbial nail in the coffin for me. It seems that Josh & Co. have been trying to end this show for three seasons now for a variety of reasons. The big Buffy death/rebirth. Giles leaves, comes back, leaves again, and now is back again. Break up Z and Anya, Kill off Tara, Kill off Mom, Kill off the Nerds of Doom...anyone else starting to see the pattern? It seems they can't have consistent character development because they don't know which actors are going to want to be around next season. In my humble opinion, SMG should not be counting her movie chickens before they hatch. She should invest herself into the Slayer role for as long as she can. Two more seasons or so as Buffy isn't going to typecast her anymore than these 7 seasons already have.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 9:02 a.m. CST

    Yep; he's dead

    by unwell_arena

    I always knew that if Giles didn't show up without some sort of bandage on his head, he was a goner. And now he's not touching anything...You think there's actually going to be a Ripper series? You're all dreaming. And Whedon himself confirmed that this is the final season a few weeks ago. Anyone remember that? Thus, Giles' death would not be that surprising. Yeah, it pisses me off royally, but its true. Wait and see.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 9:04 a.m. CST

    First impersonates only dead people?

    by Kauzi Sezso

    Excuse me, but the First has impersonated Buffy (not currently dead) and Drusilla (not confirmed dead anywhere that I know of), and Spike (ok Spike and Dru are undead. So nitpick.). So the First *could* be impersonating Giles, whether or not he is merely dead (or really most sincerely dead). Or it could be magical Giles. How does the current Giles life status affect the "Ripper" BBC series, anyway?

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 9:11 a.m. CST

    anyone who can't see the is-giles-dead storyline is a fake out

    by allnamesaretaken

    needs to go and review their tapes of season 7 and the end of season 6 again,when they make it look like Spike is getting the chip out,he goes and gets a soul. when they go and make it look like Spike is killing again,he's really being controlled. its ANOTHER FAKE OUT! just like the Dawn the SiT spoilers are! in episode 11,theres 3 more sit's show up,then in episode 12 one of those sit's are gone,that sit that is gone by episode 12 is the First while the viewers will think its giles,but its not people,its a fuckin fake out!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 10:03 a.m. CST

    Ripper is a story about ghosts right???

    by BannthisUcommies

    So whos to say that Giles isn't that ghost? Hey maybe its robo-Giles?

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 10:05 a.m. CST

    give me a damn break

    by Forget_Byron

    Giles, doesn't touch anyone?! WTF?! Buffy and the gang not knowing where he is AND knowing the other watchers are dead. You'd think they rush him for the relieving embrace when he shows up. If there aren't hugs all around just so ME can continue its foolish cop-out coy play a while longer, I'm done. And I hope some of you have the good sense to demand the level of REALISM Buffy writers have always shown in their scripts. Joss, stop playing coy with the loyal fans and freaking tell us what the hell is going on with the G-man. Otherwise, BTVS RIP!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 10:07 a.m. CST

    Why can't Giles be dead?

    by Doppelganglander

    Who says "Ripper" has to take place AFTER BTVS? The title alone would tell me it's about Giles' early days, either pre-Buffy or even pre-Watcher.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 10:33 a.m. CST

    It's not holy water, you idiot.

    by Asmodeus

    Not unless it's been diluted like crazy. That's beyond retarded.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:03 a.m. CST

    Good ole' Barry

    by FatXander

    just yesterday I asked myself "I wonder what ever happened to bwstarwars? Maybe he finally got botted off for beinga dumbass." And then, low and behold, you appear. Thanks for reminding me why i loathe and detest you. Baptizing a vampire? thats beyond stupid. far beyond it. We all know that having a soul doesnt mean shit as far as holy water, and we know what it did to Angel when dru tortured him, how would spike possible survive without major disfigurment? exactly. fuck off

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:15 a.m. CST

    more important issue here

    by ArchDiver

    Does anyone feel that the ubervamps have too much of a Blade2 feel to them? Is this something to be concerned about? ... nah, ME can handle retreads just fine. AD out

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:25 a.m. CST

    giles

    by sjanich

    Giles is most likely not dead. However, that does not mean that the "Giles" who shows up in Sunnydale is the real Giles. I suspect the first Evil can immpersonate whoever. It just happens to impersonate the dead more often for the psych efect on the living.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:39 a.m. CST

    Spike's "drowning"

    by dorfer

    Do people forget Spike draping himself all over a cross earlier in S7? That's pretty disfiguring and brutal. I bet he could come back from some holy water dunkage. But, even if it isn't holy water, it's still annoying as hell. He doesn't have to drown or risk death to be tortured by something. Shit, the Chinese Water Torture (in which a person is tied down and water drips on their head at regular intervals) is a well-known form of torture that does not threaten death to the victim. ___________ If Giles is dead, can I have his tweed jackets? --d

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 12:15 p.m. CST

    well at least barry isn't posting those fucktard poems anymore

    by allnamesaretaken

    but the troll needs the boot for making up foilers.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 12:42 p.m. CST

    Uber Vamps

    by Josquin0

    I don't claim to be an expert on the Buffy mythology, but I usually catch the show. Back when the Mayor was preparing for the ascension, didn't Anya say something to the effect that the demons seen on earth are not the actual forms the demons would have in their own dimension? The ascension was to allow the demon to come forth in it's true form. They've also suggested that vampirism is sort of a demonic infection which can take hold once the soul leaves the body at the point of death. When I first saw them, I just assumed that the "Ubervamps" are just those vampire-causing demons without the benefit of a human host?

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 1:32 p.m. CST

    Gdamned Starwars

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    As scary as it may be I think i actually found the poems less annoying than the shit he is posting now. Use that Mouse O Spite Harry and delete this damn kid.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 1:41 p.m. CST

    If bwstarwars is right

    by GypsyTRobot

    do we all owe him hotpockets, or do we have to eat hotpockets? How does that work exactly.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 1:44 p.m. CST

    testing

    by Randy Giles

    testing

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 1:46 p.m. CST

    "ONE MORE BUFFY THIS YEAR!

    by Ravenwing263

    I dunno if this has alread been covered, since I skipped the review and the TB as to avoid sources, and I'm not even sure if it's true . . . but reliable sources tell me that a new Buffy will air next Tuesday, on December 17 (or 18, I forget which one is Tuesday). Just making sure y'all know so no one misses it.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Josquin0's Theory

    by Randy Giles

    Yeah, sounds good to me. I agree.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Theory on Giles

    by Gudlyf

    I was thinking that it still could be possible for Giles to be dead AND have the Ripper series. Who says the Ripper series has to be based on present day? First of all, it's going to be a shorter series (from what I read, something like 8 episodes?). I was thinking that the series could be based either on the time before he met Buffy (doubtful), or the things he did in England after he left Buffy and before we saw him get the axe.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 3:07 p.m. CST

    Anthoney Stewart Head ain't getting any younger

    by Bored Man

    I have a hard time believeing that the Ripper series will be anything like a prequel because he just isn't young enough for that. Although I don;t put it past Joss to kill off Giles (He has said in many interviews that killing off a main character is something he likes to do) I think that killing off Giles woudl be a mistake. The killing off of Tara was a mistake because the whole evil willow storyline was heavy-handed and cliche. If they kill off Giles it will only serve one purpose, to show that the First evil means business, we can get that from massive beating of Buffy (like Glory, Adam), and the killing of the watcher's council. Besides, we all love Giles and dont want him dead, so Waaaaa. Anyway he probably is dead, as the axe was in full momentum right before it hit his neck, and if they don't immediatley mention it like "I almost got killed by a minion but it barely missed" then its not realistic for him to be alive and must either be dead, or a product of bad writing (and that couldn't happen on this show). I realize the Slayer is supposed to have a tough life but man, there is such a thing as being too realistic, everyone important to her dosnt have to die just for the show to be dramatic, for god's sake come up with something more origional.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 3:09 p.m. CST

    And dont you think Faith and Willow

    by Bored Man

    Should gt it on? No wait think about it. Willow has seen the darkside and its easier for her to relate to Faith now. Faith has never had any relationships with men, MAYBE because she really likes women. I think the second to the last episode should be one big bedroom romp between faith and willow, depicting graphic lesbian sex between the two, occasionally involving Anya and Buffy. What do you all say? Eh? Sound good?

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 3:18 p.m. CST

    This one is for Anyawatcher....

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Xander is sooooooooo fat, when he ran away, they had to put his picture on the milk truck.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 3:46 p.m. CST

    In Faiths own words:

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    "So Red stopped driving stick eh?"####I think Faith found it amusing that Willow was in a lesbian relationship not envious. Still I think their character catharsis now is so very obvious...that of course the writers will fail to capitalize on it. Faith shares much more in common with Willow now than she ever did with Buffy. But of course some Fillow action would be cool too.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 3:57 p.m. CST

    Faith

    by Randy Giles

    I fail to see why the TBers find Faith to be such an "interesting" character. Oh, wait, i forgot. She's a "cleavagey-slut-bomb." I'm not really reaching here. Those are the only two Faith observations I have seen in my days on the TalkBacks. Faith is "interesting" and "hot." I'm beginning to wonder if that doesn't mean the same thing to you fools. Here's hoping Buffy kills that shit out of her.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:02 p.m. CST

    Once again

    by Qwerty Uiop

    A good example of how the Vamp rules for Whedon are never set.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:21 p.m. CST

    The scar

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    The chinese Slayers sword was blessed by a priest thats why the scar didnt heal. Hows that? Damn almost hurt my arm on that fanwank.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:33 p.m. CST

    The First HAS only looked like Dead People

    by WhiteTrash2000

    Actually, Buffy's been dead 3 times. 1.12 - Prophecy girl 5.22 - The Gift 6.20 - Villains Spike is technically dead, and so is Drusilla. So it's only looked liked dead people. Vampires are considered dead. It doesn't say anything about formerly dead yet.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:35 p.m. CST

    Can't wait to see this... Season 7 just keeps getting bigger and

    by a goonie

    I'm happy to hear there's more than one uber-vamp. Good for them. These Giles rumours are getting freaky. I can't wait to see how his entire storyline unfolds. Only a few Slayers-In-Training left?!? Man, those hooded figures have been busy. Sounds like it's for sure: Watcher's Council HQ is gone. And the Scoobies declare war!!! Oh man, air it now!!! Please!!!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:41 p.m. CST

    Stanley Tweedle and Spike's Scar

    by Randy Giles

    Here's the deal on Spike's scar. James Marsters got it in the process of being mugged. Rather than cover it up, the writers went with it. Go to bed, spotty.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:43 p.m. CST

    Stanley Tweedle and Spike's scar

    by Randy Giles

    Here's the deal on Spike's scar. James Marsters got it in the process of being mugged when he lived in Queens. Rather than cover it up, the writers went with it. Go to bed, spotty.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:44 p.m. CST

    posts

    by Randy Giles

    It's so exciting trying to guess where in the TB your post will end up next! YIPPEE!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 4:45 p.m. CST

    Spike's Scar

    by Cardiff Giant

    When they were doing James Marster's make-up for the first time, they wanted to cover up his scar, but James thought it would be cool to leave it in. Anyone know if it's there in Fool For Love? That's the only look at William of the past. Tuesday's Buffy is going to freaking rule!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 5:27 p.m. CST

    Shut up barry

    by Hoof Hearted

    I hate you.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 6:33 p.m. CST

    barry sucks...nevermind

    by corteth

    i have full-fledged bwstarwars envy. why can't I be a dick? I try really hard, but I can't seem to do it as well as good old Barry. Ok, let me try one more time. Giles wasn't killed by the axe because he's the First Good and can no longer interact with physical objects. This is why he doesn't touch anything. He was also in charge of booting Cordy from the boring bright place...he couldn't take the incessant whining. heh. I know. Not even close.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 6:33 p.m. CST

    Just read a great story on bwstarwars...

    by chickenmonkey

    http://www.theonion.com/onion3846/nation_afraid_to_admit.html

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 6:45 p.m. CST

    my theory

    by sigma957

    my theory on giles....and just so everyone knows....this is a completely uninformed theory since i really haven't been watching the show much in the last couple years...i like this theory...he's not dead, but is in a coma back in the UK, but is astral projecting....yeah..cool...i like it....works for me.....anyone anyone...Buehler?...ok...i'll just shut up now....

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 7:20 p.m. CST

    A Giles theory

    by slaystuff

    Ok, I have a theory. Didn't Giles and his buddies back when he was Ripper go into a temporary death like status to be possesed by the demon Eyghon in the 2nd season episode "The Dark Age"? So when you think about it, if the First Evil is taking the shape of the dead, undead, or once dead, he could be doing that with Giles if he is impersonating him. I really doubt that Giles is dead. So Buffy was once dead, and if the FE can only take the form of those touched by death then it is possible if Giles did do this at one time the the FE is doing this. Also, all those that bitch that Buffy is not a good show anymore, please, get over it. It is an excellent show. Sure, 6th season was rocky, but it's back with a vengeance and better then ever. All the characters are awesome. Oh, and get over the fact that Nick Brendon is bigger then before, this happens, so stop being such a**holes about it.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 7:22 p.m. CST

    Oh, one more thing

    by slaystuff

    It did look like the Harbinger came awfully close to whacking Giles' head off, but, remember, Giles could have been protected by a spell of some sort. He is not stupid, and he seemed to know what was going on so he wouldn't just walk around unprotected.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 7:33 p.m. CST

    Huh?

    by Hoof Hearted

    Whats an a**hole? Di you mean: asshole? Pussy.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 7:44 p.m. CST

    Giles dead, alive, or both

    by Hyperspace

    I think Giles is alive, but the Giles we see in ep 10 is not the real giles. I think the group will find out about the first's hoax when Giles shows up. They will realize the first can impersonate anyone, so they can not now who to trust. My thoughts, Hyper

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 8:06 p.m. CST

    they can't get rid of the scar because

    by allnamesaretaken

    its a real scar! on jm's eyebrow duh!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 8:08 p.m. CST

    where the hell did my post land at? i can't see it!

    by allnamesaretaken

    pop luck!

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 8:12 p.m. CST

    by slaystuff

    Oh, I know what an asshole is. It would be that overused thing you've got behind you. I also know what a pussy is, it's something you never get.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 9:16 p.m. CST

    Spike's scar

    by Doppelganglander

    The scar is covered up in the first flashback scene in "Fool for Love." So presumably Spike acquired the injury as a vampire. (I'm fairly sure he has the scar in the second flashback, taking place in Yorkshire just a few months after Dru turned him.)

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 9:18 p.m. CST

    Spike's scar part deux

    by Doppelganglander

    Of course, my mistake -- Spike does get the scar from the Slayer during the Boxer Rebellion. Well, it's a very sexy scar any way you slice it.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:02 p.m. CST

    The best part of Buffy these days

    by Entilzha Proph

    is trying to guess where your Talkback will end up - so true.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:08 p.m. CST

    Ok, a couple of things

    by Entilzha Proph

    1. Whats the deal with Bwstarwars/Barry? Clearly there is history here I am unaware of.- - - - - - - - 2. I suspect (whether we like who it came from or not) that it is some sort of holy water torture. - - - - - - 3. Josquin's theroy on Ubervamps - I think that might be the case, although I've always thought they would look closer to the Angel monster we saw in Pylea. - - - - - - - - - 4. One aspect of the Buffy/Angel mythology disregard that bugged me - The whole pure demon thing that the mayor was - If what Anya said was true, then what was the deal with the pure demon's on Angel (I think they were called the scourage, or something like that) that killed off Doyle? - - - - - - - 5. How are the SIT's breaking Buffy mythology? Not certain I see how - help me out here

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:11 p.m. CST

    Oh, one other thing

    by Entilzha Proph

    I think the Astural projection does make a certain amount of sense. I don't think Giles is dead, but I don't think that is necassarily him walking around. Interesting question - the line that has been tossed around is that the first can only inpersonate those who "are or have been touched by death." If thats so, then Giles mightn't have to be dead to be impersonated - you can be touched by death, and never have died IF you have killed someone (and we know Giles has done that). Just a thought

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:53 p.m. CST

    Why cant anyone in the Buffyverse Ever Be Happy?

    by Vnhaln1

    I have watched BTVS and Angel since day one and never missed an episode. One thing I have noticed is that there is not a single character on either show that ever gets to remain happy. No relationships last. They should have let Xander and Anya get married and live happy together. At least show us that there is some hope in the Buffyverse for happiness.

  • Dec. 12, 2002, 11:56 p.m. CST

    Vnhaln1, for that to happen,

    by Entilzha Proph

    there would have to be hope in the real world - something distinctly lacking

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 1:58 a.m. CST

    Spike's Scar

    by PandaDiddy

    In "Fool For Love" Spike gets the scar in his eyebrow when he is fighting the Slayer during the Boxer Rebellion.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 2:54 a.m. CST

    Hey Herc! How about some friggin Spoiler Warnings next time!

    by Bari Umenema

    Jesus now you've gone and ruined my Buffy watching pleasure with all those fucking spoilers and no warning about them! Thanks Herc! Thanks a lot you jerk!

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:15 a.m. CST

    bari, you friggin moron

    by Custodes

    what the hell do you think inviso-text is for, unless youre being sarcastic, youre almost as bad as bwstarwars. goddamnit

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 9:10 a.m. CST

    First Evil impersonations

    by Hyperspace

    Where has it ever said that the first could only inpersonate the dead? Most of who he has impersonated it the past where dead, but that does not create a rule. I think he can impersonate whomever he chooses, but he usally impersonates someone who will bring others pain. Impersonated angels victims only because it would cause him pain. I guess you could say he can only impersonate people that have been touched by evil, but then again we have no canon rule to base this on. I think it's much more interesting to say he can impersonate anyone he chooses. This way later in the season you won't know who is who. This will make it much scarier for the scoobies and will help to shake up the cohesion of the group, making the question everything. My thoughts, Hyper

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 9:39 a.m. CST

    I am still bumed from previous spoilers that

    by spike fan

    Faith is going to bite the big one (WHY THE HELL HAS SHE NOT BE GIVEN A SPIN OFF) in favour of Dawn the Vampire SLayer which Joss and ME have been clearly trying to set up this yr.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Firefly canceled!

    by BrotherKofi

    New hope for another Buffy season?

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 11:28 a.m. CST

    THE SIT DO NOT CONTRADICT BUFFY MYTHOLOGY

    by Randy Giles

    Look, folks. It's not that difficult. It doesn't go against continuity, it's not a cop-out. There IS only ONE slayer. The SITs are not slayers. None of them WILL be slayers until Faith dies. They have merely been recruited by the Watchers Council, because they show slayer potential, and are being trained in the off-chance that THE slayer dies and her powers are transfered to the next (which is what it means to be "called" or "born" as a slayer). The SITs don't have the slayer package. They are missing the final, supernatural, piece of the slayer puzzle. Most likely, none of them will even be called. What makes Buffy special is that she fell through the cracks. She wasn't found before being called, so she had to learn as she went along. As Kendra said, it depends on where you grow up. The society Kendra grew up in took the slayer mythology very seriously, and Kendra was taken by the Watchers almost immediately. However, she didn't become "THE" slayer until the Dutchess Of Buffonia "died." It's not complicated. There is only ONE true slayer. Technically it is Faith, but, if you ask me, Buffy is the true slayer.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Firefly RIP

    by Randy Giles

    Buffy, to me, will always be the best show on TV, but Firefly just blew me away from the very first episode. It was such a tremendous show, great for completely different reasons than Buffy. I have never felt that close to a cast so quickly (not even Buffy's). Fuck FOX. I really hope UPN picks it up.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 2:20 p.m. CST

    to Randy Giles: no, it doesn;t conflict with canon,

    by 93curr

    but I gotta wonder why Buffy didn't lose her slayer powers when she died at the end of season one. There should only be one active slayer at a time. When Kendra accessed the powers, Bufy should have been deprived of them.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 2:30 p.m. CST

    93curr

    by Qwerty Uiop

    What do you mean lose her powers? Thats complete crap. You just made that up. You have nothing to base that on. Quit making stuff up. Quit speculating to further your arguement. Now somebody is going to argue the opposite point to correct you and we'll have a day of posts argueing over complete made up bullshit. Shame on you!

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Buffy the Slayer

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Actually I havent thought Buffy was truly the Slayer since she died. I think she is something different now, something maybe transcendent or greater than the average Slayer. But she is definitely not THE Slayer. Thats Faith.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:15 p.m. CST

    Sarcasm is just lost on this board with you literal geeks.

    by Bari Umenema

    Yes I was being sarcastic, I'm sure Hercules got it but not you two. You are the types who really would complain about not enough spoiler warnings in a talkback. Keep up the good work Herc!

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:22 p.m. CST

    The Buff

    by willowesque

    Heres what I want to address, they went through a hugh climatic story line with Willow last season and now shes back and all were getting is info about Fantastico kitty? Where is this character going - whats your speculation!

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:23 p.m. CST

    A day of posts arguing over complete

    by 93curr

    made up bullshit? Why, we can't have that! Heaven forfend that we waste our valuable time debating pointless minutiae from five years ago. Mayhap the debate could (should?) centre on more substantial things. Such as who's gonna get the primo parking spaces at the Mutant Enemy lot now that Firefly's DOA. For the record, though, neither Buffy nor the other SITs had access to the slayer power until after the previous one kicked the proverbial bucket. That's canon. Once said power has been passed, why would the deceased still have use for it? Ready, set, discuss!

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:32 p.m. CST

    If Firefly is cancelled...

    by sjanich

    ...UPN should pick it up and run it after Entrprise (a natural geek lead in for it). They will most likley need to reduce the budget of the show so that UPN doens't loose money money on it. They could also agressively market it overseas right away to get more current income. They can move the Twilight Zone to some other time.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:43 p.m. CST

    Asmodeus, huh

    by Mojave

    quote from Asmodeus :Not unless it's been diluted like crazy. That's beyond retarded. Um what exactly do you think holy water consists of? ... water maybe? As far as I know holy water is just water that has been prayed over. So that water would be diluted by ummmm... water. Seems like the bloody ocean could be holy water so long as you were catholic and believed.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:53 p.m. CST

    valid point, 93curr

    by Randy Giles

    You are speaking the truth here, my friend. There is no doubt. I'm not sure why Qwerty jumped on you that way. However, I think the supernatural force that fuels the slayer expects that, when the slayer dies, she will stay dead. I think the fact that Buffy came back (twice) just sort of mucked-up the process. She stumbled upon a loophole of sorts. I buy it. What do you think?

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 3:55 p.m. CST

    or, more accurately...

    by Randy Giles

    the supernatural force that fuels the slayer works on the principle that, when the slayer dies, she stays dead. i don't want to personify said force by giving it the ability to anticipate. peace, and i'm out.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 4:48 p.m. CST

    Mojave : Diluted Holy Water.

    by Asmodeus

    Simply take one small bottle of Holy Water and pour it into the 1st's BIG ASS vampire/fish tank. Proceed to dunk vampire. Of course, this is still retarded. What's next, tying Buffy to a slowly moving conveyor belt that feeds into a wood chipper? Please. Furthermore, it would have to be like one teaspoon of Holy Water poured into one swiming pool of, uh, secular water unless Firsty wanted to off Spike immediately instead of "torture" him. The Buffyverse has already establised that it doesn't take much holy water to off a vampire. Whatever this dunkarama scene is, it's not Spike being submerged in holy water -- not unless it's been ridiculously diluted. Either way, it's asinine. What is this? Vampire Fear Factor?!?!

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 4:54 p.m. CST

    Spike

    by fireworks

    is James Marsters really 40 years old?

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 5:02 p.m. CST

    Inquiring minds want to know

    by GypsyTRobot

    what is JM's real age? And, sexual orientation? I don't have the link any more, but I've seen a photo of him that looked like an ad for a gay 900 number.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 5:15 p.m. CST

    Holy Water

    by Randy Giles

    Can you all drop this stupid ass holy water debate? I haven't seen anything this ridiculous on the boards since the completely retarded Alias vs. Run Lola Run debacle from episode 7.02 (you know, when everyone used the German title of Run Lola Run to show how worldly they are?)

  • I've always wondered how Spike could have sex with Buffy without a circulatory system. I would think that it would be rather hard to turn in a--ahem--manly performance, so to speak, without one. And how come Spike can smoke and pant, when Angel told Xander "You'll have to do it--I have no breath" when Buffy needed CPR at the end of Season One? All this pondering just goes to show how great BtVS is--I actually find myself wondering about it like it's real and supposed to make sense! Thank God Joss gave the thumbs-up to allow fanfic writers to play with all these fun little details. All hail Joss and crew!

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 6:24 p.m. CST

    Gypsy and Spikey, sittin' in a tree...

    by chickenmonkey

    Call me if you need a photographer... **** Anyway, as far as the whole holy water thing goes, if I were the kind of person to posit theories (*give excuses*) on why certain rules are bent in the Whedonverse (a place where Connor tosses a vamp a CAR CIGARETTE LIGHTER and the vamp, upon catching it, EXPLODES), I'd say that since Spike has a soul, the holy stuff only stings a lot instead of kills. Take the naked-on-a-cross scene. Sure, he sizzled a bit, but he didn't scream or go flamey or nuthin. And speaking of going flamey, I'm sorry Gypsy, but I don't think Marsters bats for our team. But I'd be willing to start a rumor about D.B. Woodside, if you'd like... Woof.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 6:41 p.m. CST

    And FYI

    by chickenmonkey

    James Marsters was born August 20, 1969, which makes him as old as Jesus.

  • Dec. 13, 2002, 11:53 p.m. CST

    (a place where Connor tosses a vamp a CAR CIGARETTE LIGHTER and

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Chickenmonkey, you forget that the vampire was doused in gas and in TV land, heat plus gas means explosion. And I wasn't seriously attacking 93curr, just hoping to provoke a ridiculous debate on just what exactly constitutes ridiculous debates.

  • Dec. 14, 2002, 2:09 a.m. CST

    Jesus was born in 72,

    by Qwerty Uiop

    so being born in 69 makes him older than dirt.

  • Dec. 14, 2002, 3:12 a.m. CST

    MST3K was right

    by Maki Maus

    You wonder how they eat and breathe, and other science facts; Think to yourself, 'it's just a show, I should really just relax.'

  • Dec. 14, 2002, 3:16 a.m. CST

    Another MST-ism

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Is that Spike ina sunny window? Yes, it is. Example #642 that the producers of this show just don't care about "Vampire lore" And I aplaud them for it.

  • Dec. 14, 2002, 7:59 a.m. CST

    Some Ideas... and Big Burning Question

    by Helena

    To Spike Fan: Let's hope Joss will make Buffy and Faith trade bodies again. He can get away with it: Faith dies (in Buffy's body), Gellar leaves, Dushku takes the baton as BUFFY! To bwstarwars: do you mean that holy water turns Spike into a human? Or some kind of super-being? In any case, that's really intriguing. And One Big Burning Question: has anybody noticed Spike in Istanbul in 7.01 Lessons? Was it really him behind the door SIT tried to enter? Or I am hallucinating? And if it was him, why was he a week ahead of the current timeline? He acquired that look towards the middle of 7.02 Beneath. Hey? Any ideas?

  • Dec. 14, 2002, 6:15 p.m. CST

    And, may the Emmy go to.....

    by Buff-Angel

    James Marsters. If he gets passed up for an Emmy nomination this year, the folks in charge are sorely not doing their jobs. I know that Buffy has been passed up many times in the past, but geez, if 6 Feet Under gets a nod...Spike definitely should. He is doing an Awesome job this year. Shall we petition for it?

  • Dec. 14, 2002, 10:03 p.m. CST

    I kinda think Giles isn't dead but in hiding.

    by IdFuckAvril

    And when he arrives to Sunnydale, it won't really be him. Nor will it be the First. I think the Giles-clone will be somebody else hiding as Giles for Giles' own protection.

  • Dec. 14, 2002, 11:29 p.m. CST

    Giles

    by Qwerty Uiop

    I bet the real Giles is in a coma at the bottom of the ocean and the imposter is actually this cosmic entity called the Phoenix Force...

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 4:07 a.m. CST

    no SNL Algore talkback?

    by SmutGirl

    Herc still away?

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 8:28 a.m. CST

    "Buffy" wildfeed

    by Maki Maus

    I'll be seeing 7.10 tomorrow morning, but I don't do spoilers for general consumption. That's Herc's job. However, in Herc's justifiable if lamentable absence (shall we all hear a dirge ... ready ... set ... wwwwwaaaaaiiiiillll!!!!) if anyone has a question they just have to have answered before Tuesday night, you can let me know and I'll contact you through private email. According to "TV Tome", "Ripper" starts shooting in May of 2003, will premiere on BBC in September or October of that year, then come to UPN in early 2004.

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 4:30 p.m. CST

    Tara!

    by AmberTara

    You guys, joss whedon talks outa his ass with the interview with BtVS mag. Hes said "i didnt think of political issues when i introduced tara and i didnt think about poilitcal issues when i killed of tara" he said he just thought it would be great in the willow evil_majic arc thingy, if that is so then why didnt they kill of Xander or...miss kitty cuz willow was an ADDICT they gotta realise that anything remotly negative would start her off, but it must of been an issue for Joss clearly or they wouldent of killed her.....God im so Pissed off they killed her, i know its a bit late to speak up now, but ive given up hope compleatly for buffy if there gonna kill of everyone they can lay there fingers on. what do you guys think? ps; Does anyone know when S7 airs in the uk cuz its December 15th already and usually advert would be all over the box now. Merry Xmas you guys. XxXxXxAmberTaraxXxXxX

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 6:01 p.m. CST

    In another talkback someone said that Joss said .....

    by warlock411

    that he first thought of this plot twist when OZ and Willow were a couple and that had Seth stayed on buffy it would have been OZ that was killed. In other words the death was thought of before Tara even existed. ............... If the person who first posted this is here maybe he/she could repost all that was said.

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 8:14 p.m. CST

    am I at the top or the bottom.

    by superfriend

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 8:53 p.m. CST

    ALIAS review/talkback?

    by mondoz2

    Where's the Alias review?

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 9:18 p.m. CST

    herc is out of town

    by allnamesaretaken

    no alias talkback.

  • Dec. 15, 2002, 11:15 p.m. CST

    Hmm

    by BuffyKat

    Buffy this season has been good. But I think it probably peaked in seasons 2 and 3.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 2:22 a.m. CST

    This post has little or nothing to do with Buffy, However...

    by fladnaG

    I just wanted to say that I hate final exams. I really really do. I just needed to say that and to get it off my chest. I was ranting and raving like a lunatic a second ago but typing it out is rather relaxing. *phew*. Anyway, Buffy rocks and Giles isn't dead. At least I hope not.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 4:35 a.m. CST

    what the? insightful people original on this board??

    by 81666

    who are you guys? why the fuck should we care what you think. you may have your points whoever you guys are but no one is green with envy over anything... you're just another tool using the keyboard... now go watch the show, snobs.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:48 a.m. CST

    7.10 kicks serious butt

    by Maki Maus

    And ASH is back! YAYYY! Probably the best fight scene I've seen in this series, ever; certainly the most wince-worthy, and Buffy's speech at the end is one for the books. Everyone is in top form, and there's such a sense of mystery and foreboding ... dang, that was good.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 11:14 a.m. CST

    to AmberTara:

    by 93curr

    Pissed at Tara's death? Hell, you bet! Who wasn't! Her absence from s7 is almost as bad as Giles's from s6. You should do what I did, though -get a new kitten and name it after you-know-who. It helps a little. I stomp around my apartment yelling "Tara!" almost as much as Ozzy shouts "Sharon!" Although I'd like to hold on to the illusion that the REAL Tara wouldn't piddle behind the television quite so much.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 11:32 a.m. CST

    Gore, Gandalf on SNL and 007 SMG

    by GypsyTRobot

    "Domo aragato Mr. Roboto" - he took off the android mask. Who knew, Gore is funnier than John McCain and some of the SNL regulars. "I just got out of a relationship with someone from the South and I'm looking for something new." Did we really need to see him topless in a hot tub though? And whatever happened to Tipper's previous incarnation as a music censor? In other related news, Ian McKellan is going to host SNL again. Oh and to make this Buffy related, um, I hear SMG wants to be the next 007. If a woman becomes Bond, will there be a succession of Bond boys? Will they have dumb, suggestive names like "Mike B. Long"? Will the opening credit sequence feature male silhouettes floating around? Oh, the possibilities.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 12:39 p.m. CST

    Giles/Ripper

    by ZombieBunny

    This may have been addressed further down....I'm too lazy to look... But, regarding the Giles/Ripper show: I thought it was supposed to be about Giles when he was younger. Hence the whole thing with it being called "Ripper"...since that was his nickname in his younger years. So Giles being dead now would really have no relevance...

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 2:33 p.m. CST

    "Ripper"

    by Maki Maus

    As far as I've been able to tell, the "Ripper" series is not a flashback. "Ripper" is still his nickname, it's just that some not very nice people tend to use it. The series timeline is supposed to take up immediately after the "Buffy" series leaves off, as from Joss' first comments on it, one of the big conflicts is Giles' inability to get on with his life without the Slayer. As mentioned before, the series is supposed to start shooting in May, 2003, with British release later that year and American release early in 2004.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 3:57 p.m. CST

    Everything You Know Is Wrong

    by Maki Maus

    The Watchers' Council hasn't been destroyed. We saw them meeting, and we saw a building blow up, but we were only indirectly told that the one has anything to do with the other. Also, so far the only one who has said that the First can only impersonate the dead, is someone who may be an impersonation himself, so I'd put a little less credence in that. And somebody needs to do some serious killing on Andrew. That guy gets more nauseating every time he opens his mouth.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 6:21 p.m. CST

    Buffy sucks balls!

    by earthsmoke

    Who the hell would watch such a juvenile piece of crap as Buffy? The plot line is aimed at a 13 year old boy just hitting puberty

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 6:29 p.m. CST

    RESTLESS references, buffy big bad, slayer as the first

    by the_smite_key

    "it's not like anything we've faced before" --> not only is this an EXACT duplicate of Giles's line in "the exposition song" from Restless (4x22) when he is TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST SLAYER, but it is so singled out and obvious that it is most definetly a reference to restless and to the first slayer. also the FIRST SLAYER'S MUSIC (that always played in the background when she was around), played at the 30:25 minute mark when Joyce talks to buffy. All these references mean to me that the first evil (to which these references that once referred to the first slayer now refer) and the first slayer are the same and that ME is aiming to make the slayer the big bad this time around (isn't the slayer made from the heart of the first ?). So, big bad buffy. P.S. : they did a great job with the beat-up-buffy makeup. Also, were they making fun of "Signs" with the trap-it-in-the-pantry reference ? P.P.S : having buffy say that the first would kill the SITs, then faith, then her (buffy) would indicate, as much as it sounds VERY stupid, that ME was trying to make buffy the most important because they are aiming to somehow make buffy the actual, activated slayer again (as in, her death can trigger a new slayer [dawn, for season 8])

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 7:15 p.m. CST

    Idiots in the pantry

    by Maki Maus

    Earthsmoke ... I take it that you speak from personal experience.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 7:57 p.m. CST

    earthsmoke

    by FatXander

    note the "juvenile" crack from someone who uses the phrase "sucks balls" Irony?

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:11 p.m. CST

    And since when...

    by chickenmonkey

    ...is ball-sucking a bad thing, eh?

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:14 p.m. CST

    ball sucking is a bad thing...

    by fladnaG

    ...when she accidentally bites. OUCH!

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:19 p.m. CST

    Or when...

    by chickenmonkey

    ...you have to floss afterward.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:30 p.m. CST

    or maybe when....

    by fladnaG

    ...the dog stops licking and begins to chew. Hey don't look at me funny. Its ok because its your dog. This sounded so funny in my head. alas.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:38 p.m. CST

    Also when...

    by chickenmonkey

    ...the hamster starts to wriggle.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:44 p.m. CST

    Also also when...

    by chickenmonkey

    ...you taste backsplash (a.k.a. "The Poor Man's Bidet")

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 8:48 p.m. CST

    Also Also Also when...

    by chickenmonkey

    ...your Mom's trying to get them to drop. BAM! Just crossed a couple borders into the land of extraordinarily bad taste, on oh so many levels. Such evil.

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 9:57 p.m. CST

    wow, what

    by the_smite_key

    a bunch of sick fucks. I like it ;) ;) --> smite

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 9:59 p.m. CST

    does she want to eat ?

    by the_smite_key

    was anyone else AMAZED that they got away with the carpet munching joke ? SIT to willow : "I hope you don't hog the covers" + meaningful look + Willow gets wierded out. Dawn : "Do you think she wants to eat ?" + willow gasping. Dawn : "Macaroni". GIVE ME MORE ! I know I would like to eat. Yum Yum. mmmmmmmm. Stickily yours, --> smite

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 10:29 p.m. CST

    Sucking Balls and carpet munching

    by Entilzha Proph

    clearly its a sign of the arival of the first :D

  • Dec. 16, 2002, 11:56 p.m. CST

    Questions , predictions and some spoilage

    by Expert

    Hey posters I have a couple brain puzzles and a little spoilage. I don't know how many of you read the spoilers for Episode 13 but from what I've read, Spike is chained up in Buffy's basement because his chip is violently malfunctioning. She has to call Riley and her and Spike take a field trip down to the old initiative hangout. There Buffy has to make a decision whether she trust Spike or not. I'm guessing her delima is whether or not she should deactivate his chip. Or she may find out something troubling about Spikes true nature while rummaging through the old files. Tell me what you make of it, the possibilities are endless. On another note Faith definately dies this season activating one of the potential SIT's. No doubt she will go out like a warrior in some huge battle making amends for all her sins of the past(It will be one of the best Ep's ever). Im sure Kennedy will inherit her powers and become the next Slayer, since there toying with a relationship with her and Willow. Also another possibility is that Dawn also becomes Slayer, because Buffy dies(again) and she is made up of Buffy, so the Slayer gene is activated. This would give the show a spin off entitled "The Slayers". Also no one has touched on the possiblity that buffy may be killed by Spike(accidently of course)and she tells him she loves him with her last breath knowing hes not himself, as Casey perdicted. Once he realizes what he's done he kills himself leaving the two new slayers to go on a vengeful rampage wrapping things up. (Just a thought tell me what you think, I have others).

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 12:31 a.m. CST

    Giles DOES touch things...

    by Kelvington

    Just to be clear, I watched it tonight and Giles DEFINATELY touches things, he leans, he sits and he rests on things. Not very ghost like. You could even make the argument that he touches his glasses to put them on and off. I think the best theory here so far is a protection spell. But they do seem to go out of their way here to make Giles seem a bit off. We'll wait and see. Just my 2

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 12:37 a.m. CST

    spike's bones don't show

    by the_smite_key

    I've seen the ep. His bones don't show. He doesn't glow. starwars, wtf are you talking about. BTW : I didn't read the whole talkback, so sorry if this has been asked&answered already. --> smite

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 1 a.m. CST

    did I miss something?

    by punto

    Did buffy meet The First in the episode before this one? She kept talking about how she fought him, but I don't remember that. She also said it 'nearly got Angel to kill himself'.. Did I miss an episode (a big one aparently), or was that a reference to something from previous seasons?

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 1:18 a.m. CST

    yep, you missed one

    by the_smite_key

    season 3, ep 10 I think. called "amends" --> smite

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 1:45 a.m. CST

    ??????

    by Lexie

    i am not happy with the experts theories. except for faith dying. that would be a plus. james marsters is 30 years old. and his scar is sexy!!! you people are full of useful info!!! so faith was the ONE slayer before buffy. does that mean buffy only became the actual slayer because they thought faith was dead because that kikistos guy killed her watcher???? just askin. please don't melt spike's sexy skin... i'm outie

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 1:47 a.m. CST

    Correction

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Buffy came BEFORE Faith

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 1:54 a.m. CST

    sadness

    by Lexie

    oh and i really don't like the idea of buffy and spike dying like that. c'mon, the show is tragic enough! no more drama! please...... it was sad enough that buffy had to kill angel in season 2. don't end like that!!!somebody really needs a happy ending. maybe spike could get ahold of one of those demons that turned angel human for that day and he could become human! buffy could pass the torch to sis and company and they could leave town happily ever after! yes i am dilerious.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 1:57 a.m. CST

    buffy came before faith

    by Lexie

    that doesn't make sense. kendra came because buffy died. ok never mind. faith came because kendra died, right? sorry buffyverse can be mind-boggling at times.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 2:19 a.m. CST

    Lexie,get the seasons 1,2,and 3 dvd's please!

    by allnamesaretaken

    Buffy died in the season 1 finale and was revived by Xander,at that moment Kendra was called,Buffy was no longer in the slayer loop(HER DEATH CAN'T BRING A NEW SLAYER)Kendra was killed in Becoming part 1 in season 2,then her death called Faith. Though,based from some episodes it can be interpreted that Faith is older than Buffy in age.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 3:06 a.m. CST

    Faith's age, and SMG's departure

    by Entilzha Proph

    k, I've always been under the impression that Faith is older than Buffy - not necassarily by a whole lot, but definatly older. Do we have any info on that? Also, I hate to be an annoying one her - whats the 411 on Faith being Bi? I mean, yea we all know she has a libedo that rivals Xev's on Lexx, but I've never gotten the impression she goes both ways - someone wanna enlighten me? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - As far as Buffy leaving the show, I can't see Joss outright killing her off, for a whole variety of reasons. However, neither can I see her leaving the show like Oz or Angel (ok, not exactly like those to, but you get the general idea). So my guess is assuming SMG leaves after this season, we may see Buffy do what Cordy did at the end of S3 on Angel - some sort of ascension kinda thing. Hell, maybe she'll get Cordy's old job :)

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 5:21 a.m. CST

    faith & buffy

    by lottie276

    as far as I can tell in s3 there are comments that sound like, when kakistos killed Faith's watcher it was her crucimentum-thing, like when Giles gave her that stuff to get rid of her slayer powers on her 18th birthday. This shows that Faith had hers in the summer before she came to see Buffy so she is older but not by much, a couple of months or something. I think the plot with the slayers in waiting sounds like the btvs book 'pretty maids all in a row' anyone else think that? anyone know how much $ smg has been offered to make s8?

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 8:57 a.m. CST

    bwstarwars = BANNED.... HOTPANTS = Good.

    by Gellar's Ass

    Congratulations for being so annoying that I actually took the time to write a Proxomitron filter just for you. Now all your idotic jabber automatically gets turned into Inviso-text so I never have to read your crap again... not even on accident.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:11 a.m. CST

    Say What?

    by Maki Maus

    Cordy didn't have a job. The only thing she evidently got to do up there was her nails over and over.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 12:06 p.m. CST

    posters are funny

    by Greener44

    i've got to hand it to everyone on this board. You give me a good laugh. Kudos to Querty whose fat jokes never grown tiresome and to all those people who just can't stop insulting bwstarwars. Well onto the ep. Only caught a bit of it. It was on twice last night too what kind of fan am I. If SMG leaves the show and Dawn the vampire slayer is next. It will be cancelled faster than Birds of prey and slower than Girls club. No offense to Michelle T but she's not headline a major tv show material. She just misses something. Xander is so fat when his beeper goes off people thinks he's walking backwards. He reminds me how on Seinfeld how George was skinny for the first few seasons then just balloned when the show got hot. Is Giles alive? I think that if this is the last season if Buffy goes, so does Giles. They started this show, they'll end it. Let's say Buffy dies or goes into hiding and Faith bites the big one, who would you choose to star in the spinoff instead of M.T? I have to go with Ashley Scott. She can definately hold her own on the screen. The scripts for Birds just sucked so I would like to see how she would do as a slayer. Either than or a hot girl with an english or austrailian accent. MMMMM...accent.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 12:18 p.m. CST

    if faith is killed off to call a new slayer

    by allnamesaretaken

    more than likely it'll be kennedy(dawn is the fake out,she won't be chosen) hell Kennedy already looks like a Faith rip off in terms of attitude and they aren't setting up her ship with Willow for nothing!

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 12:27 p.m. CST

    Triumph the Dog

    by allnamesaretaken

    herc is out of town so we'll have to make due with this TB after the episode airs tonight.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 2:01 p.m. CST

    giles dead?

    by cooper2000

    If Giles was killed without any good death scene and goodbyes, thats really crappy. Thats a sure way to lose a lot of people. Thought I think this season is better than last. Time to end while they are a head.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 2:29 p.m. CST

    I demand 24 spoilers, Herc.

    by Stile

    Bloop Bleep Bloop Bleep

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 4:07 p.m. CST

    Greener44 why don't you think

    by Entilzha Proph

    MT is "headliner" material?

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 4:12 p.m. CST

    Huhj????

    by Entilzha Proph

    I thought Animated Buffy was canceled. Is it uncanceled? Am I thinking of something else???

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 5:17 p.m. CST

    WE WANT OUR 24 REVIEW

    by OGREISHERE

    WAKE UP HERC AND GIVE IT TO US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 7:35 p.m. CST

    Who's the Slayer?

    by Maki Maus

    Buffy "died" and Kendra was called. Kendra was over-structured and over-trained and rather quickly bit the big one. Whereby Faith was called. Unfortunately, being somewhat psychotic rather interfered with Faith's ability to perform her duties properly, and landed her in stir. Faith may be the official "Slayer", but it's evidently Buffy who still possesses the actual strengths, both physical and ethical, of the First Slayer. At any rate, her name's on the front of the show, that makes her the Slayer in my book.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 7:46 p.m. CST

    Clarification to all the nonsense

    by Expert

    Buffy was nearly killed(legally dead) and the powers that be activated Kendra. When Kendra was killed by Drusilla Faith was activated. Because there are SIT's this proves that these things are predetermined by the powers that be. Buffy is a special case because she didn't completely die, but was dead enough to cause the powers that be to activate a new Slayer. Buffy is no longer in the slayer lineage line, if Faith dies a new slayer is activated. Buffy is a glitch in the cosmic system, making her special(END OF DISCUSSION) Questions/Comments

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 7:52 p.m. CST

    Chinese Water TORTURE.

    by dorfer

    Not death. There's no way in hell that Chinese Water Torture would kill in such a ridiculous manner, poopeater. Besides, the victim would probably die of dehydration long before his/her head turned to mush. And I don't think the slayer has infinite power. She still gets her ass kicked every season. Shit, she was staked by a run-of-the-mill vampire in S5. --d

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 8:04 p.m. CST

    Ripper series

    by Hann1bal

    last thing i read about the Giles spin off from the BBC was that it was going to be made next year & possibly screen in the UK by the end of the year. so unless Giles is going to be a ghost, helping solve crimes & other such stuff (done to death on tv already) I dont think he can be dead. of course, if he isn't dead, the explanation on how he is suddenly axe-proof is going to be interesting....

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:03 p.m. CST

    Tonight's Buffy (SPOILERS)

    by dorfer

    Kinda. Good fight scenes, I thought. So sick of Willow's "unable to use my magic" arc. If the enemy is this powerful, what's the harm in letting ol' Red go off for a bit? And how was Joyce able to touch Buffy's arm? Hmmm.....

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:05 p.m. CST

    what the heck was that????

    by Freak_of_nature

    ok, what was that?? cool episode, but where was the waving american flag during the "we daclared war" speech and the patriotic music??? Willow's out of control thing got me all sad, but whatever. and am i just imagining it, or was one of the potentials totally flirting with Willow??? oh, one last thing: i loved the trying to wake andrew up thing with dawn and anya.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:13 p.m. CST

    Yeah, can we get NEW Slayers In Training?!!

    by Drath

    Because it was practically tattooed on their faces which one would die first, second, and third(assuming all three die, if one lives it'll be the bitchy one). I expected the nice one to die from the instant she spoke! These writers KNOW what they're doing, but that's the kind of thing that drives you nuts even if it was intentional!! And can't we have some international Slayers in Training? Can't we have a Peruvian Slayer-to-be, and a Malaysian Slayer-to-be, and a South African Slayer-to-be, and on and on? Not that nationality is the same as character, but I was hoping we'd see our first real kick of international slayers, a sense that this is really a global phenomenon. Maybe the two were English so that no one would think anything of the nationality/ethnicity of the first one to die. *************** I'm really sorry the Uber vamps are just dumb monsters. Come ON Joss, make the vampires intelligent, dammit! ************** I still really like Principle Wood, and I'm really hoping he'll work as a love interest soon--how much time is left, we're half way through the last season. If that new slayer series starts, he'd be a good perennial Giles-like figure, but only if he's used a lot now. ************** As a long time fan, I just can't accept the idea that Giles is really dead. That would be the most unforgivable act on Joss's part, I can't see it NOT alienating me and nearly every other Buffy fan out there. I don't think even a fan-favorite-killing cuss like Joss is willing to do that, but you never can tell. Anyway, is it possible Giles IS dead, but has manifested as some kind of ghost? I wouldn't buy it unless they did it, but I think his not touching people is going to be important even if he's not First Evil. Maybe they killed the obviously bullseyed Slayer to Be in order to imply that they WILL do the obvious and predictable on occasion.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:17 p.m. CST

    Annoying....

    by Buff-Angel

    Did you notice that after Buffy had the shit beat out of her, her face hammered to a bloody pulp, she still looked beautiful at the end of the show, and apparently wasn't even wearing any makeup. BITCH!

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:30 p.m. CST

    Giles, touching and shadows...

    by dp4m

    ... I'm still not sold on Giles not being dead (I didn't see him touch anyone ELSE just things) but he at least cast a shadow. Did anyone see if Joyce did when she was around?

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:31 p.m. CST

    No one's saying Buffy's not a Slayer

    by Drath

    She's just out of the Slayer's-death-calls-another deal because she's already died once. I don't think the Slayer powers have been affected by Buffy's presence. One would assume that ordinarily, the Watchers would have had Faith assassinated by now so another more moldable Slayer could be called. But who knows. Maybe if Buffy had not been there Faith wouldn't have gone bad to begin with. Or maybe the world would be a living hell several times over by now. What WOULD a battle between the Ascended Mayor, the Master and the Hell Mouth, and Glorificus over who would gets to swallow the world have been like anyway? Probably just annoying like those FIRST talkbackers.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:42 p.m. CST

    Already looking forward to the next episode.

    by mrfan

    Tonights show was not that bad. So many questions so little answers. I guess we will have to wait.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:50 p.m. CST

    Giles was leaning on stuff-it's a fake, holywater? Is it Harbin

    by Anyawatcher

    If the First Evil wanted All the records gone why hand deliver them to Buffy? Why bring the Slayers in Training to Buffy? The supposed fake Giles could have just led the SiT to their death and then went to Buffy by himself. Like someone said it was a fake out. What is this Holy Water shit. Spike would have no face. Did the FE go to church and carry the water to the pit? Didn't the first Evil as Spike call these guys his harbingers. Where did this Bringers shit come from?

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:51 p.m. CST

    Principal Puck

    by Regenhund

    Has any one considered that maybe the Principal is Dawn's watcher? He may have been sent there by the watcher's council and doesn't yet know of the big badda boom. Oh, and they may not be able to kill spike by drowning him, but they could probably still torture him (sure, vamps don't have to breathe, but maybe they still like to?) Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass... **** Firefly: Rust in Peace (Damn those FOX morons) <woof>

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 9:55 p.m. CST

    Buffy is the Ultimate Big Bad?

    by IdFuckAvril

    The First could be the red herring Big Bad for this season. Or, here's an even better possibility: The First's ultimate plan could be to possess Buffy. Notice how Buffy has been wearing a lot of black lately. And notice the words that she spoke toward the end of the episode. Joyce in her dreams could be representing Buffy's subconscious telling her that she and The First are one and the same.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10 p.m. CST

    Two plausible theories about Giles:

    by IdFuckAvril

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10:03 p.m. CST

    The Jack Bauer Power Hour= 5 STARS!!!

    by BLADE

    No 24 Talkback sux. But mother puss bucket that was some good shit tonight!!!!! Sherri Palmer-Nina and the Gift Card-Kate getting Jumped- God damn!

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10:03 p.m. CST

    Sarah Michelle Gellar is Awesome!

    by NYC

    I always knew she was a fierce actress ever since All My Children(Shut up, I know, but she was hot, I had to watch) and she still proves to be such a powerful performer. She doesn't need an Emmy but I am still dumbstruck how that retarded Alias and it's pathetic, weak and quite ugly and horsefaced lead actress jennifer garner can get a nod. She sucks. Sarah rules and she can have a major Hollywood career, she should just dump the crappy Scooby movies.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10:05 p.m. CST

    Two plausible theories about Giles:

    by IdFuckAvril

    1) He's near-death and in a coma back in England. What we are seeing is an astral projection of himself. Giles will only be able to maintain this visage of himself for a limited time (for the remainder of this season). 2) "Giles" is actually somebody else, but it's not The First or a minion of The First in disguise. The real Giles, in turn, is in disguise as somebody else -- probably one of the SITs who will arrive in the next episodes. (Remember that last season Jonathan made himself look like Warren's ex girlfriend, so this is something that's possible/doable within the Buffyverse.)

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10:09 p.m. CST

    Giles died-mentioned in season 2 ep.

    by Mike K

    Does anyopn remember the episode in season 2, the one in which Giles mentioned his wild phase (as The Ripper)? He and Ethan Rayne and group did something involving causing your own death, and then being revived, causing, as Giles said, an "incredible rush". Thus, he did die in the past, and can be presented by the first, while he is alive somewhere else. In support of this theory, Giles (The First) told Buffy to go to sleep, as Joyce (The First) kept telling her to do, which would explain his purpose in being there. But despite all of this, as a friend said, JW is too clever to be second guessed, and the answer will suprise us all.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10:20 p.m. CST

    Giles Touching...

    by badtouch

    Sorry, that sounded like Giles did something to me that's illegal in 49 of the 50 states (there's always wacky ol' vermont). Anyway, about the argument that Giles put on his glasses so he can't be the first, wouldn't all the first's manifestations be completely naked then? And yeah, maybe he isn't dead, but it was obvious that we aren't just speculating... they did go out of their way to keep him from touching anything. Since when would him and buffy not hug when she sees him for the first time after months? And why wouldn't he help her out of the hole when she was trying to climb out? ME definetely has something up their sleeves...

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10:36 p.m. CST

    spewing random bullshit

    by daffyclan

    Principal: I'm probably the only person here who thinks this, but based on his comments about seeing true evil and you're never the same again, and likinig mysteries because you get to dig down and find out what's below, I'm willing to bet that he's actually the Big Good. Mr. I-Know-All-The-Answers-But-I-Don't-Know-Who-To-Give-Them-To-Yet. He's pretty much there to sit on his ass, monitor the situation, and dole out morsels of saving the worldiness when he feels it's finally necessary and he knows who to tell. And it ain't gonna be Buffy. Dawn, maybe. Or Willow. Here's a silly thing: Anyone else think the episode in season 6 where Buffy goes all crazy and tries to kill everyone might have been the first attempt by the First to wreak havoc in Sunnydale? Hell, if you get a Slayer to do your evil bidding, who can stop you? And that didn't work and Spike gave them another opening. I know no one's going to read this, but I needed to discuss it with someone, even if it is just a nameless computer screen.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 10:38 p.m. CST

    The most eventful '24' in weeks ...

    by Groovy_Chainsaw

    ...and you don't even give us a space where we can provide our own comments. And we thought you loved us !

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 11:05 p.m. CST

    Is Buffy afraid to go to sleep?

    by GPL Racer

    Joyce can touch Buffy because Buffy is dreaming both time she sees her mother. You can't use that to rule the First in or out as Joyce. The larger point is that Buffy seems almost afraid to go to sleep. It reminds me of Jamethiel's brother Torisen in the books by P.C.Hodgell. He had prophetic dreams too. But when he could feel a prophetic dream coming he would avoid sleep as long as possible. So, how bad is the dream going to be when Buffy finally does sleep?

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 11:15 p.m. CST

    drath

    by narky

    there were no foreign slayers because giles just picked up who was handy. two brits and a southern californian. he said the others were coming, he just didn't have time to pick them up.

  • Dec. 17, 2002, 11:53 p.m. CST

    Let's Fix Some BS

    by DarkZero

    I thought I'd chime in to fix some of the BS in this talkback and maybe make for a better conversation overall. Maybe answer some questions, too. ---- The First taking the form of the dead: Folks, we've gone over this before. In every talkback, there's been about three people clarifying it, and here it is again. The First Evil can take the form of people that HAVE BEEN deceased. How do we know this? Because there's a pattern. Whenever the FE takes the form of someone that isn't dead, it's always the form of someone that has been dead for a short time or is a walking corpse, such as Buffy, Spike, and Drusilla. ----- Giles: Sitting in chairs and resting on things does not count as "touching". If those counted, then Drusilla "touching" the ground by standing on it would count and that would mean that she would be the real Drusilla, Warren would be the real Warren, etc. As far as I saw, Giles has yet to actually exert physical influence on something, such as picking up an object, touching a person, etc. He also didn't help Buffy out of the hole and looked really uncomfortable when she was closing a door and it nearly touched him, so obviously there's something wrong with him. Either he's the First Evil, or one of Giles' magic tricks, or something, but it looks like he's definitely not the actual Giles. Then again, the Buffy writers suddenly started caring about continuity again when this season started and the fact that Giles may have been temporarily dead as a college student could mean that the FE is taking Giles' form, but Giles is alive. ----- Slayers-in-Training: No international slayers? WTF? Did UPN cut part of a scene out of the wildfeed or did that many people really miss Giles saying "more will be coming" after introducing *THE BRITISH SLAYERS-IN-TRAINING*?!?! All three girls are British, all three girls are just the ones that he could round up in the UK, and he said that "more would be coming", presumably from other countries (since all the ones that he brought were from the country that he came from). I'm surprised that no one mentioned this because this is actually one of the best pieces of "evidence" (unless it's a fake-out) for Giles actually being the First Evil. He's gathering all of the slayers-in-training into one place, allowing the forces that the FE is gathering to fight Buffy to pick off slayers-in-training along the way, just like the UberVamp did tonight. ---- Buffy: This is just my personal thing, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet. The UberVamp, a vicious, bloodthirsty monster incapable of speech or, it would seem, intelligent thought, just ignores Buffy when she's down and doesn't drain her? WHY?! Does the First Evil have some Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain hangup about winning and getting everything that it wants? Killing Buffy won't have any more negative effect on the FE than killing a slayer-in-training, because killing Buffy won't create a new slayer. Not killing her was just stupid and I'm sure we'll see some half-assed explanation in the first act of the next episode about how the UberVamp was full from snacking on the slayer-in-training or something.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 12:25 a.m. CST

    The real Giles please stand up

    by 2

    Man, everyone sure did poo-poo my post when I first said that Giles was really dead...but there's an awful lot of converts now that we see there weren't any hugs all around, huh? Hmm...Maybe I should write for this show?... Oh well, guess I'm a few seasons too late for that... (I'm in general agreement that it is a sad way to see ASH/Giles return to the show, and a lame way to bid him farewell...but I'm still hopefully Joss can pull something out of his bag of brilliant tricks and blow my mind for the finale.)

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 12:34 a.m. CST

    Anya's glasses and Dawn's HOTPA... whatever.

    by Gellar's Ass

    Are Anya's glasses new? I don't remember seeing them before. In any case, Anya with glasses is freaking hot. **** These current episodes do demand careful scrutiny (e.g., did Giles touch anything, etc.), but they also require the writers to be extra wary of continuity errors. I don't want to spend all season looking for clues only to see them throw it all out the window with an "a wizard did it" moment. **** Dawn needs more stuff to do. Wasn't expecting to say that. Maybe it's just because she's filling out so nicely. **** So who dies next week? My money is on the British Slayer in Training not named after a former MTV VJ. **** Ubervamp was nowhere as cool as his whole raising made him out to be. Apparently he's just another dumb kung-fu lackey who doesn't finish off Buffy when he has the chance and then gets himself killed a few episodes later. He only happened to be staying in primo Evil real estate by coincidence. **** The crap with Spike and the water was stupid. Let us never speak of it again.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 12:43 a.m. CST

    My Theory About the First

    by Stev

    The First Evil is not so much an insigator of evil as a maintainer of balance. In the JudeoChristian sense, death is a consequence of man's disobedience. Perhaps the FE works in a similar way in Bufffy universe to prevent the world from becoming too good, but not completely destroying it either. In Sunnydale, prior to Buffy, the presence of evil was muted. The Master's first attempt to open the Hellmouth was thwarted by an earthquake, and so forth. That is why the world did not end before Buffy's presence there. Cordelia's wish took for granted the events that occurred, just not Buffy's presence. That is why Buffy shows up there (not just because Giles called for her), to restore balance. Buffy balanced the ledger sheet between good and evil at first in Sunydale. The problem was her friends either saved her life or helped her do what she might not ordinarely do on her on, and they tipped the balance sheet too far in the favor of good. In this way, all the major threats acted as minions of the FE, though not in a direct sense (we know the first evil influencess people through deception). The menaces were more and more adverse, yet Buffy prevailed time and again because of her unique band of Scobies. The "shallow cuts" guy was probably an agent of the first evil. That is why he said "this should be interesting" when Buffy approached him and gave up no fight. The reaction had started and three things would be possible: 1) Dawn dies and Buffy quits (like she said she would), 2) Buffy dies and balance is restored, (in those 2, good goes down and evil remains constant) or 3) evil reigns on earth while Buffy continues to be the slayer (evil goes up while good stays the same). Any of those things would restore balance, except that Buffy's friends, again, brought her back to life, unsettling things. When Cassidy visited Willow, she mentioned she was tired of worrying about the balance between good and evil. Perhaps the first wants to destroy the slayer lineage so it can stop producing evil to the extent that it has had to. If this is the case, then maybe Buffy must give up her powers to "win." Since the first can't really be defeated, then maybe it can be bartered with. In that case, perhaps Buffy picks out of the three (including dawn) possible slayers (to make Joyce's prophecy come true), or maybe the slayers are no more (until Fray). This theory explains numerous things. First, it shows how the world survived before Buffy, Willow, Giles, and Xander. Next, it shows why the original slayer did not want Buffy to have friends in the season finale of season 4. It knew the slayer was meant to only bring balance to the world, and not "win the war." Also, it explains why the FE brought Angel back. Until then, he came the closest to getting to Buffy. She quit for several months after killing him. Even if she killed him again, the suffering could very well cause her to hang her hat up forever. BTW, a cool followup after Buffy would be a Fray series 20-30 or so years in the future instead of 600 years in the future. That way, production costs wouldn't be so high (not so many special effects like in Firefly), and we could see some old characters like Spike and an old Xander. Maybe Xander could be her watcher (hey they'll be in need after this season, and he'll be Giles' age by then) and Spike could be the initial love interest, like Angel. There are some interesting conflicts here already. Both these actors are already signed up for an additional season. I think a lot of the reason Angel was so successful was because of the familiarity of at least of few repeating characters, so this series already has an audience. The only thing they need to watch out for is to retread on old Buffy storylines. Make the series about rebuilding the slayer stuff after years of no slayers, of how Xander must overcome his memories of Buffy (who should be dead) to train a completely different slayer (maybe more timid or something to differeniate her from Buffy), how Spike looks to her to replace Buffy, but she always comes up short in his eyes, and how this slayer must coop in the shadow of a slayer everyone says is successful, even though she clearly wasn't. Maybe include something about how it was a bad deal Buffy made with FE and that evil returned shortly after her death (of brain cancer or something), so that the world worse of for her presence despite her galantry.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:10 a.m. CST

    Some observations...

    by ianiiixvi

    Hi all. Don't really post all that much but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents - 3.127 cents Canadian. Regarding Giles. Yes, as someone posted earlier he does say that other slayers are enroute. He does touch a wall and a counter when he leans against/on them. Does that count as touching? When the Nearndervamp comes out of the hole to chase Buff the sun is coming up behind Giles. The Neandervamp is repelled NOT by the sun (well, initially) but ultimately by G hisself cloaked in a most interesting "glow" that obscures him. Sooo, what does that make him? hmmm? Perhaps the First Good as somebody alluded to earlier? On a related note if you have had the opportunity to peruse the New Testament of the Christian bible (John 20:17) you'll note that after the resurrection Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene but at one point he advises one of the women who attempts to hug (touch) him not to "hold onto me as I have not yet returned to the Father". Granted I may be reaching for that one but perhaps JW is cribbing a bit from the #1 bestseller of all time. So, maybe G is dead, ressurected and ....hmmm. Christ figure. Interesting. Anyone? On to other points. During the fight in the warehouse/factory how about that T2 score underpinning the Neandervamps exit from the pile of piping? hehe. Oh and finally, I seem to recall something about vamps being unable to cross running water. All of this due to the vampire legend stemming from the time of the plague or somesuch and running water was a purifier of sorts. (If I'm incorrect on that please feel free to comment) Once again I may be stretching that thing about the water to make it fit what they're doing to Spike but... Why not? Until next time... Have a Merry Freakin' Christmas.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:19 a.m. CST

    Wow. What a talkback

    by Cory849

    This is the worst Buffy talkback I have ever read. It's like all these parents of special ed kids went out to the Swinger's Club to sleep with each other and left the kids with access to the TV and the computer. I really would have thought that by now in the run of the Buffy TV series newbies asking dumb questions would have been weeded out. Apparently not. Also, I would have thought that some people would realise answers to their questions while typing and realise they didnt need to post after all. I'm not actually trying to be petty and I'm not usually one for flaming but this time. wow. Ok. Lessons: 1. The First can only impersonate the dead, the undead, and the used to be dead. Take it to the bank. I wish I had the power to have it never be contested again.sigh. 2. "was that reference to the pantry a signs reference?" I know this doesnt matter but Dude - Xander referenced Shyamalan in THE NEXT LINE. So the answer is yes, but the lesson is you need to work on your powers of observation before posting anymore theories about anything. 3. Buffy. then Kendra. then Faith. That is the order. Caused by Buffy's first death. then Kendra's only death. Next slayer happens upon Faith's death. Again - never let it be spoken of again. 4. Giles is either dead or he isnt. No one knows anything else so theories based on some logical analysis are just pure speculation. You dont have enough information to think so stop it and enjoy the ride. But would Joss kill Giles in the last season for dramatic effect? How does "in a heartbeat" grab you. Read his interviews. Also might want to point out that the only reason we are having this discussion is because of a leaked script that we werent supposed to know about that told Giles not to touch anything. My bet would be that he's dead but only the Whedon and the Noxon know for sure. If they want him alive they can just say that he had his witch coven cast some invulnerability spell on him before he went looking for dead watchers and the axe bounced off. ah magic. It makes for great Deus Ex Machina. Better than Dylithium crystals and a warp core. 5. Eliza Dushku just starred in a Robert Deniro movie. She wants to rock the feature films and win an oscar. Career on the way up. I've said this before but I'll say it again. No Faith spinoff. She's coming on to die so that Joss can have a brand new slayer with an actress that costs a lot less. (Incidentally, while I'm on about THIS point - why do you people seem to think actors are all sitting on shelves waiting to be plucked up and put in the roles you want to see them in. All sorts of considerations go into whether an actor can or will play a particular role including - among other things - what they are already scheduled to act in. For instance Sarah Michelle Gellar wants to leave because she cannot shoot lots and lots of projects because she is already busy shooting lots and lots of episodes 6. Cut the poor bastards a LITTLE slack. When they say "it's like nothing we've ever faced before" the second time ITs probably just because its true twice. The producers put a lot of thought into finding a way to introduce the most evil thing ever every year. Calling into question little stretches and bends to make this happen in a show you otherwise love is...I don't know...kinda just bad manners. It's weeny. OK. that's enough for now I guess. ciao.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:20 a.m. CST

    where's giles hand?

    by mochamix

    I was wondering why giles kept hiding his hand.Do you think he might have gotten it hacked off. Maybe they'll give him a chainsaw to stick on the stub.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:31 a.m. CST

    they chopped his hand off

    by mochamix

    It's way to obvious, the whole giles is dead thing.His right hand was constantly hidden.I think he got it whacked off defending himself from the axe blow.That's why he doesn't touch anything. Plus he's probably in a lot of pain

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:53 a.m. CST

    I've got it...maybe...

    by mochamix

    Aren't the slayer and the first somehow connected?Maybe if the first kills the slayer it to will vanish,maybe it just wants to bring buffy over to the darkside,and then destroy all the other slayers so that there's only evil left.Then maybe the slayers in training find a way to ward off there callingor they all die.Then maybe faith sacrifices her life as the last remaining slayer to rid the evil forever,like Jesus.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:08 a.m. CST

    God,

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Lets hope not...

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:12 a.m. CST

    "sacrifices herself to rid the world of evil forever, like Jesus

    by Tiffany Case

    Yeah, bang up job there, JC I think it makes sense to kill Faith - but only for a few secs. Have Willow standing by with the magic (or a defibrillator, whatever), and make sure the next slayer is called. Then kill her. Repeat. Get lots of slayers Makes much more sense than trying to make an army out of regular teenage girls, no matter how much 'battle training' they've had.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:21 a.m. CST

    Theories

    by Expert

    Mochamix is correct, the slayers and the first are connected like ying and yang. Remember what buffy's mother said in the episode tonight, "you cant defeat it its a part of all of us". This is true there is no way to defeat evil, only come to terms with it, or ward it off. The slayers role is to maitain the balance so that niether side can win. Evil exist only because there is good, to destroy all good would destroy evil aswell. This is what, in the end will be Buffy's weapon. On another note Buffy's mother is definatly NOT the first but REALLY Joyce. She tries to explain this theory to Buffy to help her in her battle. She tells her she cant defeat evil or stop the night. Some may see this as the first playing tricks, but I see it as Joyce trying to give Buffy strategies on how to maitain the balance. If this is true Buffy may go evil, because remember when Joyce told Dawn, "in the end she will not choose you" meaning she will not choose good(meaning Spike probably vamps her out, which I know is unlikely) or it could mean in the end she has to give up her powers to restore balance, and she does not choose Dawn to have them, because she knows its a huge burden. (Remeber these are just theories not Expert opinions which are 99.9 percent of the time accurate)Questions/Comments

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:39 a.m. CST

    I can tell my presence is needed here..

    by Thalya

    Ok folks, some stuff to consider. 1st Slayer, 1st Evil, related? Um, remember Restless and BvD. Buffy's power is rooted in darkness and the fact of the matter is she's barely tapped into that power in her struggle to stay in the Light. Furthermore, the power of Evil and Darkness is specifically rooted in death (any objections?). Evil is rooted in the World, in Earth, that's where magic's power comes from, that's where Willow gets her energy to heal herself in STSP, that's why the manifestation of the 1st Evil cries out "You only make me stronger" when she does the locator spell in tonight's ep. That Buffy died, remember in Prophecy Girl after she was revived she mentioned she felt different (stronger? forget exact quote) and only then she was able to defeat the Master, perhaps because she was now on his level because they had both died and come back? Just imagine Buffy's connection to the 1st Evil now that she's died even more and been BURIED (as in, put in the Earth, you know, the thing that has its teeth with the Hellmouth?). As this show has shown us, death is easy, life is hard. Evil is easy, Good is fighting, controlling yourself, having a conscience.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:51 a.m. CST

    two things

    by Darth Lechon

    One of the things I know has been touched on in this TB, so I'll keep that one brief. The other, I'm not so sure about, since I skipped all the posts not originating on the 17th. It's this whole thing about me not going insane trying to follow the threads. Okay, 1) I think we've found Willow's new love interest for the season. Yeah, she's a little young, but I don't think Will (or the audience for that matter) will mind. 2) This isn't an explanation for whatever Giles' current condition is, but its an piece of evidence that everyone seems to have forgotten or overlooked. Back in the season 5 episode "Tough Love" (the one where Tara gets brain sucked) there's a part in the magic shop where Giles Anya and Willow catch one of Glory's minions. The minion refuses to speak about anything and Giles tells the girls to get some rope to tie him up. As they turn away, the minion suddenly shrieks and starts talking. For those of you with this ep on tape, listen closely. As the girls turn away and start walking, there is a sound similar to the one they use for the vamp transformations. The girls turn and ask Giles what happened, and Giles says he changed his mind. So what happened? What did Giles do in the span of a second to make this tight-lipped minion start talking? And what was that noise? Just a loose end we might want to think about.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 3:06 a.m. CST

    One More Thing

    by DarkZero

    I already griped about the UberVamp not killing Buffy, but there was one other thing I noticed in that fight that bothered me. What kind of moronic slayer runs into a construction site, lingers near a circular saw (possibly two, I couldn't decide from the camera angles), then runs PAST the circular saw and tries to drop some frickin' PIPES on her enemy? She could've tried cutting his head off or maybe just limbs off with the circular saw, but concussive attacks never do anything to vampires in this show. You would think that in her seventh season, Buffy would be somewhat resourceful... or at least the writers would be.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 3:25 a.m. CST

    Bye bye, Giles

    by Ged

    He's dead, folks. I don't like it, but let's review the evidence. 1. When last we saw Giles, a large axe was getting ready to dance on the back of his head. 2. When he appeared in Sunnydale with the slayer wannabes, he didn't touch anything or anyone. 3. In Giles first scene there were at least three references to M. Night Shyamalan and 'The Sixth Sense'. Let's face it, we're seeing dead people. Plus, when Buffy was climbing out of the hole after battling supervamp, just stood there. I'm not sure if ghost Giles is brought to us c/o the First Evil, but it's definitely not our favorite ex-librarian.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 3:54 a.m. CST

    Details, details

    by Maki Maus

    Darth Lechon -- good point about the interrogation, but I always heard the sound of someone's neck being adjusted with more than chiropractic abandon, and generally that causes a bit of pain. Ged -- I agree that what we are seeing isn't Giles, but if you watch the scene just after Buffy crawls out of the hole, he isn't just standing there, he's running toward her. But that does beg the question, since she left him standing right by the hole, where did he wander off to in the meantime, and why didn't he come when he heard the thumps and screams? In general, I've noticed that when either "Buffy" or "Angel" is on temporary winter hiatus, they tend to show as reruns the shows that will have some pertinence to understanding the plot later in the season. As this coming weeks' episode is a repeat from Season 6, the episode (sorry, forgot the name, and don't feel like going to look it up right this second) where Buffy gets delirious and dreams that the last five years had been a fantasy, I'm thinking there's probably a clue in there somewhere as well. Since watching Season 6 was pretty much a moot issue for me once Giles had left the scene, I wouldn't hazard a guess as to what that is.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 5:50 a.m. CST

    Darth Lechon

    by RogueScribner

    Regarding your #1, I mind. Lesbian SIT? Is this necessary? The only reason to go there is if she in fact becomes THE Slayer with Willow as s/o for a spin off. Would people honestly be interested in this? Not once in the entire episode did she spark my interest or display any unique quality of character. I hope Uber Vamp bites her soon. L8r

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 6:38 a.m. CST

    ianiiixvi

    by RogueScribner

    Good catch with the T2-like music in the fight scene. I caught that, too. That fight did seem awfully familiar in a way, didn't it? Heh heh. ///// Oh, and does anyone think Joyce's comments regarding the sun bear significance? Especially in light of the fact that the rising and setting of the sun is being controlled in L.A. (in a way) as they speak? Food for thought. L8r

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 7:23 a.m. CST

    interesting point rogue

    by Entilzha Proph

    If this is to be Buffy's last season, I would like to see them do some stuff together. We shall see what happens

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:16 a.m. CST

    Best... 24... episode... EVER...

    by DudeNYC

    And no Talkback?? Shame, shame...

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:18 a.m. CST

    Stupid Frickin' Cable

    by zer0cool2k2

    Stupid cable...sound kept cutting out and picture got all pixellated all during Buffy. Of course everything was fine before and after the one show I wanted to see last night! Damnit...so I missed a couple of points. What did the SIT say to Willow at the end of the "sleeping arrangements" segment? (I'm assuming she hit on her in some way). What was the whole "Spike and the water" thing? Now I was watching Giles closely, (as well as I could with jacked up cable), and more than the touchy- Sixth Sensey stuff, what I found strange was how he was so unsure and indecisive, almost like he was trying to hurt the Scoobies confidence. Or maybe that was all just setup for Buffy's take-charge speech. (Which I'm glad she's stopped being whiny Buffy, but it would be nice if she actually had a plan for kicking Evil's ass). And speaking of the whole "First Evil not touching anything" what about Joyce touching Buffy on the arm? Or was that just something buffy imagined? And Anya's glasses rocked!!!

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:22 a.m. CST

    The line about the Principal liking mysteries was great!

    by rev_skarekroe

    And if Giles is dead, how can they still make "Ripper"? Also, and this is off-topic, let me be the first on 12-18-02 to say "Two Towers" wasn't nearly as good as "Fellowship". sk

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:27 a.m. CST

    buffy the movie.......2

    by lottie276

    has anyone else heard the rumours of a new Buffy movie?

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:29 a.m. CST

    a script worthy of the Noxon name

    by Forget_Byron

    Last night's ep had more holes in it than a wiffle ball (not the best analogy, admittedly). Let's see if we can sum this up. Might-be-dead Giles shows up at the Summers' home to find the gang rebuilding the house. Buffy starts to hug him, but is interrupted when the SIT's walk in. So surprised that three young girls are accompanying MBD Giles, she completely forgets that she's glad to see him. Nice coy ploy. And somewhere along the way the Scoobs became mind readers, cause I don't remember Andrew ever telling them he killed Jonathan. Maybe it was in an earlier script, but got caught, and no one saw fit to tell this week's writer (who's the co-exec producer, hmm). Then Buffy and MBD Giles go the cave where MBD Giles conveniently stays up top and Buffy gets pummeled. MBD Giles, completely out of character, never comes to her aid. Somehow, Buffy gets away and hobbles (presumbaly without Giles help) all the way home. Then, completely without warning, explanation, or reason, one of the SITS runs away and dies. Then, and here's where all plausibilty faded from a show known for its realism in the face of complete fiction, then, Buffy goes out WITHOUT A SINGLE FREAKING WEAPON to find the SIT. And GUESS WHAT? There's the Ubervamp. He promptly pummels Buffy again, and for some reason leaves her buried, even though he's tasted her blood. Can someone explain the point of this total farce, please?

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:44 a.m. CST

    THANKS YOU JESUS FOR SMILING UPON US ALL, READ

    by the_smite_key

    Very little new information in the mix at this point. However, there is a major plot point that was revealed. Apparently, Dawn is not a potential SIT. The gang is mistaken in their assumption and in actuality it's another student of Sunnydale High who is a potential. There is no name that they could provide, but I'm presuming that this is the mysterious 'Amanda' THANK YOU JESUS!!! ---> smite

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:49 a.m. CST

    BoredMan

    by the_smite_key

    ...that's my kinda thinking!!! Except I would include buffy at all points, make it a three way lesbo orgy :) heading for the bathroom now, --> smite

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 9:51 a.m. CST

    btw, I took the info about dawn from...

    by the_smite_key

    ...the spoilerslayer (spoilerslayer.com) --> smite

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 10:11 a.m. CST

    HAHAHAHAHA I'M BACK MOTHERFUCKER!

    by FromHell

    hey, been a while, fucking good news, Buffy rocks! I was getting tired of the melodrama early on this season, but things are picking up! The ubervamp is an awsome foe, and i look forward to anything else they have to throw at us. The slayers in waiting are nice, I especially like Molly, and I hope she becomes an integral part of the season. Drusilla's return (as the First) is welcome and Juliet was perfect as Spike's tormentor. Now lets get back to that vampire, can't remember what it's called, but it rocks, the best fight scenes in Buffy for a long time! Buffy's speach about declaring war could've benifitted from being a little horter and snappier, but i've come to except the fact that Buffy will forever be just a little overwritten. They have my attention, and I fucking hope they don't go and screw it up now. Long live the vampires!!!!!!

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Random Musings

    by locke1230s

    Up until last night, I thought principal Wood was an agent of the Watchers Council. That line about myster movies, then that evil grin was awesome. I really want to know his story.****Giles is as dead as fried chicken. I just hope the real giles comes back in the form of a ghost, so all the scoobies can laugh and call him "Nearly Headless Giles."****The slayerettes were a little annoying, but man o man, im glad to see some lesbian action starting up again.****Buffy needs to bust out the troll gods hammer, beat the shiznit out of the ubervamp, tie him up, and hang him out to burn in the sunlight.****The Dawn and Anya torture was awesome.****I think buffys mom that talked to Dawn was definately buffys mom warning her about something, and last nights buffys mom was either the same, or just one of buffys prophetic dreams telling her she needs rest, and that the rasing and setting sun is very importing.***Finally, did you notice how Giles intentionally told Buffy to wait to fight the evil after the sun set? Definately a manifestation. Thats all I have james

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 10:58 a.m. CST

    RogueScribner

    by Darth Lechon

    Of course, its entirely possible that the SIT in question is just an uber-slut. In which case...well, Faith will be back soon. I do agree, none of the SIT's held my interest. I was a bit confused as to why Buffy felt like holding back on them in the first place. It wasn't like with Dawn before. These girls have presumably had some training, and therefor would be somewhat versed in weaponry. Also, I agree with the issue of why the ubervamp didn't finish Buffy off. Seemed a bit out of character for all the evil guys we've seen so far.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 11:19 a.m. CST

    by Big Ted

    This just in!!!!! Buffy recieves 5 Golden Satellite nominations, tying Alias for most nods in Drama. Nominated for: Best Drama Series Best Actress-Drama(Gellar) Best Supporting Actress-Drama(both Hannigan & Caulfield) Best Supporting Actor-Drama(Marsters)

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 11:59 a.m. CST

    Oh, Giles is so very dead

    by Doppelganglander

    I agree, very Sixth Sense. In fact, I believe he's wearing the exact outfit he was wearing when he got his head cut off, much as Bruce Willis wore slight variations of the same outfit throughout the movie. More evidence: did you notice how when the UberVamp crawled out of the hole after Buffy, Giles was conveniently blocking the sun? I think when the First appears, he has some physical attributes (ability to block the sun or cast a shadow) but cannot hold or manipulate objects or hit someone. I also noticed that Giles was very discouraging in everything he said. He kept telling Buffy to get some rest, wait till later, etc. Even implying to the others that Buffy might have internal injuries and could even die! If the real Giles thought she was that badly injured, he'd get her ass to a hospital. I just hate it that Giles is dead, but what a great way to piss Buffy off and motivate her to take out the First once and for all. Appearing as Giles is the ultimate betrayal--she will be so loaded for bear once she finds out what happened, nothing will stand in her way.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 12:08 p.m. CST

    Giles not dead- proof and bring on the "R Kelly like" hot lesbia

    by Anyawatcher

    Giles said he went to get the books after he found out about the First and what was happening. He found this out when he was about to be hit. So if Giles died there he never would have stolen the books. Giles did survive the attack, stole the books and papers, FE didn't want more info out so he blew up the council. and to Ged's evidence that Giles is dead(and others) that he never touched or leaned on anything. In his first scene he sat n the table next to the couch and when Buffy and He got back from the first fight he leaned on the wall next to the door. And it wasn't Sixth Sense reference, it was Signs. Anyone know if that Kitten board is pissed about the Willow/SiT lesbian love action? I hope so they are so annoying. I wonder if Willow's Sit is 15 or a little older. Do her R KZelly style Willow. And the principal, it was only an "evil" grin if you think Woody is evil. I saw it ashe knows Buffy's secret but she doesn't know his, that he's a good guy.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 12:08 p.m. CST

    Gile's ain't dead.

    by dorfer

    I don't know how, but he's not dead. There is no way in hell that Joss and Co. would not give a character of his magnitude the proper "goodbye" scene. They like to shake up the fans, but the old schoolers (of which I am not really a part) would probably revolt over this completely. When Tara died, Willow was there to witness it and hold her... it was a moment for the audience as well. When Angel "died", the audience was there with Buffy to watch him go. There may have been physical contact with Giles, but we didn't see it. I was perturbed that he didn't help out at the tree lot, though. If he was a manifestation of the First, then anything he said could be wrong. So his "confirmation" that The First can only impersonate the dead cannot be trusted. Eh? ####### Is anyone else SICK of the "I can't use magic/don't let me hurt people" schtick for Willow? It's driving me nuts. The team at ME really needs to find a DIFFERENT reason why Willow cannot use her magic. If the First is trying to destroy her confidence, could we see a little of it coming back, please? Halfway through the season and she's already had her head bashed in by a Bringer, she's been taken over by the first (presumably), she hasn't TRIED to protect the house with a spell... it's getting old. ###### The reason Buffy is always going out there alone is because everyone else seems useless. There is NOTHING for Anya, Dawn, Xander and now Willow to do. I'm sure they could be reintroduced into the fray in a creative way. Let's see it. --d

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:08 p.m. CST

    Buffy, Giles, the Hellmouth

    by jamsun1227

    I, too, got the Sixth Sense feeling that Giles is dead. As for not touching things, keep in mind Bruce Willis's character also sat on chairs, leaned on walls, but never physically manipulated objects. Just like Giles. As for whether this Giles is dead Giles or The First Giles, we know The First can be in 2 places at once and we know it was at the house (through Willow). Is it just leading all the SITs to the Hellmouth to kill them? It did take a vampire's blood to bring back an Ubervamp...does it take many slayers' blood to bring back true evil?

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Wesley and the Council

    by jamsun1227

    One other thing, if Giles is dead, there is another Watcher still alive. I don't remember Wesley ever getting fired. Maybe he returns to Sunnydale with Faith. Maybe.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Keep calling for the 24 Recap, Manuwalde...

    by dorfer

    ...maybe one will MAGICALLY appear here in the Buffy talkback.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:50 p.m. CST

    Shouldn't Spike be dead by now?

    by dorfer

    I am a fan of Spike, but there is NO reason for him to be "alive" right now. He better damn well play a REALLY important part in the upcoming fights or this whole torture thing is simply a waste of airtime. The First better REALLY NEED him for some reason. Otherwise, this is an insult to viewers' intelligence. --d

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 1:54 p.m. CST

    Wood is Dawns Watcher

    by superzario

    After the speech about evil in movies and young people I got the impression that he was definately a good guy. I'm going with "Dawns Watcher" and like with Giles and Buffy, he is staying back and not training her. besides could he really do a better job then the slayer?

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:16 p.m. CST

    Giles is Dead but he is not the First.

    by slopreilly

    Giles is Dead. He never handled the books, never did any research, and never touched anybody. His hands stayed in his pocket the whole time. Also when he flashbacked on what happened to him his flashback stopped with seeing the hooded figure weilding the axe. This was his last memory and never actually saw the end result. Think about it people, since when does Giles not grab a book and research shit to help Buffy. He didnt because he couldnt. He is a ghost. He is helping everyone by leading them to the answers. He lead the SITs to Buffy. He is a ghost, a good Ghost, but a ghost none the same. And we (the audience) will get the big goodbye at the end of the season when the big bad is defeated and Giles reveals he is a Ghost and now must return to heaven. That will be the big goodbye. It will also be a fitting end to the series because now once and for all Buffy is on her own and must forge her own destiny without anyones help.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Sadly...... Giles Is Dead..

    by delwin

    I love Giles and I will miss him, but he's dead, or in a coma someplace, using astroprojection. He's dead. The reference to "The Sixth Sense" was a dead giveaway, no pun intended. I was in denial also, but he's dead. He seemed very uncomfortable, hands in pockets, or arms crossed. AND let's face it Giles is always holding a book in times like these. Don't you think he would have helped Buffy out of the hole in the ground, and wouldn't he be holding a weapon, like an axe?? Then when Buffy got out of the hole, Giles had the sun behind him looking very spiritual like. I'm pretty upset about this, but Giles is dead or very, very hurt someplace.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Different networks means no connection at all?

    by saybaby97

    I understand the business reasons why actual crossovers between Buffy and Angel are not feasible, but is anyone else bothered by the complete lack of continuity between the two shows? For example, on last night's show, Buffy comments on how they'll need help...so she thinks of Spike. Yeah, okay, I'll buy that, but what about Angel and company? Buffy and Giles realize they are facing an impending apocolypse, and they don't think of asking for help from Angel and Wesley, a Watcher that's still living? And do they even know about Connor? I know he's a pain in the ass, but he is super-powery. And they haven't thought about finding or warning Faith yet? And vice versa on Angel. It's raining brimstone, and no calls to check in with Sunnydale?

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:21 p.m. CST

    Sadly...... Giles Is Dead..

    by delwin

    I love Giles and I will miss him, but he's dead, or in a coma someplace, using astroprojection. He's dead. The reference to "The Sixth Sense" was a dead giveaway, no pun intended. I was in denial also, but he's dead. He seemed very uncomfortable, hands in pockets, or arms crossed. AND let's face it Giles is always holding a book in times like these. Don't you think he would have helped Buffy out of the hole in the ground, and wouldn't he be holding a weapon, like an axe?? Then when Buffy got out of the hole, Giles had the sun behind him looking very spiritual like. I'm pretty upset about this, but Giles is dead or very, very hurt someplace.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:32 p.m. CST

    Forget Byron

    by Qwerty Uiop

    I'm with ya, man. Why didn't it kill Buffy? I mean, I don't want Buffy to die, but it makes no sense. And the SiT is sitting there chatting, buffy spins in a circle and BAM! the SiT makes a break for it. Why? This episode had some good ideas as far as forwarding the storyline, but mostly it felt like a misstep and stumble. Sub-par for Buffy.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:36 p.m. CST

    Giles Is not Dead!

    by Superfuld

    Okay C'mon guys. Do you REALLY think that Whedon would kill off one of his most beloved charecters? He still has plans to do "Ripper," he's NOT going to kill off one of the main charecters And here is five reasons WHY Giles is still alive and kicken1: Notice that no cast member that has ever spent more than one episode in the opening credits has ever died and stayed dead. All the other charecters that have died on Buffy vave been technichaly guest stars: Jenny Calander, Kendra, Joyce, Tara(Who was in the credits in one ep.), The watcher council, Jonathen, None of them were ever in the actual "Cast" 2: have you ever considered that maybe Whedon and co. WANT us to think Giles is dead by making it so obvious that he is? Remember last year when the big rumor at the begining of the season was that Willow was going to go evil and have a big showdown with Buffy? Yeah, it happened, but only after everybody was sure that he whole "Willow hooked on Magic" Plotline was dead in the water. They're fucking with us! I cn't be the onlyone that thinks that. 3. If Herc can discover that Faith is going to meet her maker at season's end, Don't you think he'd be able to find out and inform us if Giles died as well? 4. Giles was able to lean and sit. No other member of the FE was able to do that. 5. If the FE is spending so much time killing allthe SIT, why in the heck would he bring them all to sunnydale to the doorstep of the Slayer? Why not kill them?

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:51 p.m. CST

    Barefoot Giles

    by zer0cool2k2

    OK, I heard a rumor that if you hold the cover to the "Once More With Feeling" soundtrack up to a candle, there's a hidden image of Buffy, Xander, Giles, and Willow crossing a street. If you look closely, you'll notice Giles is barefoot! They bury people without shoes, so I'm guessing giles is indeed dead...plus I also heard Phil Collins was given a copy of Joss's script for the season finale, and he wrote a song for it about how Spike gets drowned, and Buffy(?) sees the whole thing, but doesn't do anything to save him.......... actually, in any of it's manifestations, has The First been visible to more than one person at a time? The whole gang is seeing Giles, so it leads me to believe there's something different about his appearance, though i don't think he's the real Giles, at least not in physical form. Discuss.........

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 2:56 p.m. CST

    The Principal

    by clserafini

    Gotta say, that scene in the basement of the school can be looked at more than one way. If you buy into the principal being evil, then he now knows Buffy is onto the plan...BUT what if he is good...a different good, one that is not aligned with the council. In fact, maybe he is unaware of the council and slayers, altogether. If that is the case, perhaps he doesn't yet know what to make of Buffy or worse, thinks she is aligned with Evil. In that case, his comment about liking "Mysteries" could have been about trying to figure out what her role is. Just a thought.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 3:01 p.m. CST

    jamsun1227, Wesley was fired

    by Entilzha Proph

    in the Angel ep Parting Gifts, he tells Angel he was fired. (I think it was parting gifts) They did offer him his old job back when the Conciul went after Faith, but Wesley didn't help them, and so they left him. I do agree, would it kill WB and UPN to allow mentions of the other shows? I do wonder if may perhaps there is some corilation bewteen the 2 shows. One thought as to why this is all being brought on now - we now have 2 Vamps with souls and 2 slayers. Somehow, I think there is more going on than just an upset balance (although I think there is that as well)

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Sorry, Anyawatcher, but no.

    by DarkZero

    "Giles said he went to get the books after he found out about the First and what was happening. He found this out when he was about to be hit. So if Giles died there he never would have stolen the books." - The Watchers' Council was looking for Giles before the incident with the harbinger with the axe, so presumably they were looking for them because he stole their most relevant documents and was hiding from them. As for Giles leaning on things, several people have already explained that. When you lean on a wall, you don't exert any influence on it. It's no different than any of the FE's manifestations "touching" the ground by standing on it. Incorporeal beings can stand, sit, lean, etc. because they control their own bodies, but they can't actually move something other than their own body (or, in this case, extensions of their body like clothing and glasses).

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 3:43 p.m. CST

    Could Buffy pull a Dallas on us?

    by citiprime

    With all the talk of whether Giles is dead I have a thought, do you think Wheedon might have the whole season play out with Buffy, Faith, Giles, and the Watcher's council ending up dead or destroyed, only to say it was all a dream? Could we get to the end of the season only to have a reset button pushed. If this season was just a dream it could explain why ANGEL's apocalyse in L.A. is not mentioned on Buffy. Don't tell me one show's on UPN and the others on WB is the reason they can't mention the other, because last night they mentioned Angel on Buffy. The show could go even further and say that all of Buffy was imagined. I can't remember the name of the episode, but it was the one where they alluded to the fact that Buffy's world of demons and vampires were only a figment of her psychotic imagination, and that she was really locked inside a sanitarium (similar to Captain Sisko's Benny on StarTrek:DS9). If this is the show's last season, do you think he might just make it all a dream, since in there own words: "we're going back to Buffy year one".

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Could Buffy pull a Dallas on us?

    by citiprime

    With all the talk of whether Giles is dead I have a thought, do you think Wheedon might have the whole season play out with Buffy, Faith, Giles, and the Watcher's council ending up dead or destroyed, only to say it was all a dream? Could we get to the end of the season only to have a reset button pushed. If this season was just a dream it could explain why ANGEL's apocalyse in L.A. is not mentioned on Buffy. Don't tell me one show's on UPN and the others on WB is the reason they can't mention the other, because last night they mentioned Angel on Buffy. The show could go even further and say that all of Buffy was imagined. I can't remember the name of the episode, but it was the one where they alluded to the fact that Buffy's world of demons and vampires were only a figment of her psychotic imagination, and that she was really locked inside a sanitarium (similar to Captain Sisko's Benny on StarTrek:DS9). If this is the show's last season, do you think he might just make it all a dream, since in there own words: "we're going back to Buffy year one".

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 4:07 p.m. CST

    CitiPrime

    by zer0cool2k2

    That ep where buffy is in a mental hospital and the whole series is just a figment of her imagination, I believe is next week's repeat episode, so as someone mentioned earlier, that could be a clue. Personally, I doubt that's where we're headed though. And speaking as someone who's been around since the series' very first episode, I can understand the point someone made about fans being pissed off if Giles were to die without a big dramatic death scene, but Joss has always insisted that he wants to give the fans what they need, not necessarily what they want. Plus, if it comes to that, I'm sure we can get some big emotional moment with the Scoobs and "more powerful than you can imagine, at one with the force, blue glow-ey" Giles.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 4:32 p.m. CST

    I hope to God I'm wrong...BUT GILES IS MOST LIKELY DEAD

    by twitaman

    Giles is dead. I'm convinced of it. He's either a first evil doppelganger playing the role of the "mole" with his half-hearted, defeatist attitude or he's going to be similar to Bruce Willis in "The Sixth Sense." I watched last night's episode again, and Giles doesn't touch the books he brought (the girls do) and actually he doesn't touch or hold anything! Not a weapon, he doesn't reach out his hand to help Buffy when she's stuck in the cave. Also, we were never shown just how he was rescued after he was about to get his head lopped off. And even a casual observer of BtVS knows that nothing happens on this show without a darn good explantion. If they haven't shown us how he got rescued it's for a reason...HE DIDN'T GET RESCUED! HE'S DEAD. He's dead. This is the last season and they feel the need to "top themselves" and since they never kill off regular cast members just recurring players (these are people who aren't a part of the opening credits sequence, just guest stars...i.e., Robia La Morte aka Jenny Calendar, Kristine Sutherland aka Joyce Summers, Amber Benson aka Tara) Giles is dead. Damn them! Damn them all.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 4:47 p.m. CST

    total war, what the scoobies can do; some thoughts

    by sjanich

    Here

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Giles isn't dead. But ME lives for sure.

    by dorfer

    ME got their discussions, that's for sure. Kudos for the ambiguity that leads to such arguments. All the fans (myself included) are going back and forth with the "he's dead/he's not dead/he's kinda dead" discussion. Good stuff. Now, I will bet that Giles is NOT dead. Too easy. Way too easy. Just because the Watchers Council was looking for Giles, doesn't mean he had already stolen the files. I'll bet he stole them AFTER we saw him get "almost axed". And if he IS dead and NOT the First, ME is gonna have a hell of a time explaining how Giles can astrally project himself from beyond when a witch like Tara couldn't. But, I think Giles has a better afterlife agent, no? --d

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 5:09 p.m. CST

    DarkZero-where in the TB will this land???

    by Anyawatcher

    Forgot this in my post. The FE has been telling Spike that it's pissed that he tried to spill info to Buffy. So why would the FE hand deliver the only documents on him to the only people that can stop him? Giles stole the documents- while you can argue when he stole them I think it's safe to say he did. If the FE took the trouble to blow up the council so no info or no more info would get out why give the only info to get out of the council to Buffy? The FE said it was tired of the balance between good and evil. It doesn't want to help her so it can spy on her as Giles? While I believe it's possible he's dead it's more likely a fake out to mess w/ us. back to when Giles stole the documents. Sure he could have stole before he was told to gather them and that's why they were looking for Giles. Or Giles learning that "it has started" broke into the council and took the documents and went to gather the SiT. There is evidence both ways and that just makes Buffy better.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 5:21 p.m. CST

    "Amends" on FX monday 23rd

    by Anyawatcher

    prob an wed as well.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 6:26 p.m. CST

    don't you talk bout SHAFT

    by the_smite_key

    yes shaft, because if ANYONE besides Marsters wins that fucking golden satellite or whatever award, then that is what I would call a goddamned SHAFT! Same goes for the emmy's and all those other awards shows. I ain't gay and I don't even like Spike's character all that much since he got whipped, HOWEVER, I can recognize damn good acting and Marsters turned out the best. For anyone who would dispute this, watch 7x01 and 7x02 again (well, those in particular, though any ep with him recently will due (besids 7x09)). I can see Gellar MAYBE not winning because she's either dead on or off my a longshot, but I still hope she does. Hannigan and Caulfield ? Fuck em (and I would too :>), who cares. --> smite

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 6:31 p.m. CST

    what EVERYONE HAS FAILED TO REALIZE

    by the_smite_key

    (at least, I don't think anyone has pointed this out) is that Buffy then and Buffy now are not the same. Remember Tara explaining that Buffy could be hit by Spike because she was slightly changed on the "molecular" level, enough to confuse the sensors in his chip about her humanity ? Well, I'm guessing that it's the same for the first. Buffy as she was is dead, and can be impersonated (wow, impressive fanwank, yes ?). Also, I think some special rule may apply because I think that buffy is more connected to the first than is currently realized. The slayers all share a connection with the first, and buffy's seems to be the strongest. Afterall, when she went to the desert her guide was the first slayer, who was made from the heart of the first evil (i believe that is correct). --> smite

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 7:45 p.m. CST

    Thalya, RE Death/Evil, Earth/Good

    by Drath

    I don't know if you noticed this, but in your post you neatly contradict the set up of Earth=good because Buffy went into the Earth with the Hellmouth. Also, interestingly, "Death is your Gift" associated with Heaven has often been seen as the escape from the evil that's integral to being the Slayer. So there's a sort of Yin and the Yang thing going on here, where there's a little evil in the Earth and a little good in Death(uh, from a thematic stand point at least). Very interesting. ************ About Giles, why are people trying to guess this one? Isn't it obvious that they are doing EVERYTHING the writers can to throw us off? They showed us his apparent off-screen death. We know he might be dead, even those of us who aren't internet spoiler-reading geeks, and the writers know we know it, and WE know they know that too, and we are a knowledgeable bunch of assholes. Giles flinching as Buffy moves to hug him, followed quickly by a reminder that FE is non-coporeal, was not hard to miss even for "average" viewers. It might even be proof he's NOT First Evil because we saw Drusilla FE and Buffy FE both touch Spike and he reacted to the sensation, so FE can make you THINK you're being touched but still can't inflict pain or tie you up and hoist you up to bleed over a door. So why hasn't "FE Giles" faked a hug? Of course Giles touching his glasses or leaning on a sofa is not proof Giles can touch--by that logic FE shouldn't be able to wear clothes when it morphs into people because that would be touching. We can argue these nit pick points over and over again, there is no sure fire way to know what they're going to do. If you guess right, it's still a guess, why be so smug about it? The one thing that I keep remembering was in season 4 when Giles was turned into a demon and Buffy recognized him, saying "who else could give me that look you gave" or something like that. So if Buffy doesn't recognize this isn't Giles now, what does that say? She's not as close to him anymore? Our parents change as we get older until we find ourselves finally totally without them? Thematically, I think there's a lot to chew on here, no matter what they actually do. Given that Spike saw through the FE's Drusilla, we know the entity doesn't mimic people THAT convincingly, so Buffy CAN see through the First Evil's trick, but will she? Damned sweeps tradition. I hate worrying about the fate of Giles every time he appears though. The end of season 5, the end of season 6, and NOW, they've threatened to take him away for good, and I'm really angry about it since I don't see him as just the father figure. He deserves better than to just die in the background, and so does Spike. Whatever they do, even if it's Giles's ghost, it won't change that killing him was a mean-spirited thing to do to us as much as to Buffy. And RE Ripper, a show about young Giles would suck because Head wouldn't be in it and a show about his time in England during season 6 would be even worse because we'd know he's still going to die in a year and in an attack from behind no less! Crap on that! Kirk's "Bridge on the Captain" death was more satisfying!

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 8:01 p.m. CST

    Narky

    by Drath

    As long as there are more on the way! I'd like them to be more than just cannon fodder, but I know that can't be easy for the writers. If the whole last half of this season is going to be the uber-fight we usually only get in the last five episodes of a season, here's hoping the Slayers-to-be are a home run in the supporting players department the like of which we haven't seen since season 3 with the Mayor, Faith, Mr. Trick, Wesley, and Snyder(and Joyce of course). I hope they aren't all played by the generic white girl crowd of California's thespian population. I mean, there HAVE to be some non-white actresses with talent in that state who could bring some characters to life! I hate tokenism, but when it's that or nothing... Well whatever, it's not in my power, and this talkback is rediculously out of order, so what can you do?

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 8:07 p.m. CST

    Some Theories, not hot pocket worthy, but theories

    by DomisInnerChild

    First off, I'm leaning towards dead Giles. My variation? It's a good ghost Giles who doesn't know he's dead. It would fall in line with the M Night references and why he wouldn't start giving REALLY BAD advice like "the uber vampire is vulnerable only to garlic". There was serious foreshadowing in this episode. I think Mom's comment about "you can't make the sun rise" coupled with the uber-vampire seemingly only having issues with the sun and Willow afraid to cast spells means... Willow will cast a huge draining spell to make the sun rise in the middle of the night to kill the uber vampire. Why are Spike and Buffy still alive when they seemed like toast in the episode? The First is thinking it has won and is just looking for icing. It wants Spike to kill Buffy. No fun letting its lesser minions kill the Slayer when it can have a dual Vampire with a soul conversion to evil/extinction of the Slayers finale to all this. Buffy didn't give L.A. a ring because the First messed with Angel so much in their first encounter. All the Slayers and Slayers in training will die in the finale. When Buffy's Mom told Dawn "she won't choose you", it's because Buffy will choose herself to be sacrificed again.

  • Dec. 18, 2002, 10:59 p.m. CST

    bwstarwars your a fucking moron

    by Anyawatcher

    I'm not sure if the "spoilers" you posted were real or fake, I didn't read, but you suck to put them in a talk back. Are you retarded? Mental? I think the First Evil said it right when he said the world would be a better place if you killed yourself. I know I've pissed one or 2 people off but not the whole friggin board. DIE DIE DIE you piece of shit.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 12:48 a.m. CST

    Pogo was right...

    by dalis

    We have met the enemy and he is us. All four (Buffy, Willow, Dawn, and Spike) have a connection to dark mystical forces, and I thought of them all when Joyce started in on the whole 'evil is inside of us' spiel, so my question is, what has to happen to all of them if the Fray plotline of this last battle occurs, since they are all so intimately connected to evil? And how do you fight evil? Is it like fighting terrorism? It's not exactly quantifiable. I love how the only morally resolute character in the whole episode was kiddie-raping Spike - "get bent". The thing about Buffy, and I know this because I too am sleep-deprived, is that she has critical voices from all directions and she isn't making good decisions. And isn't it interesting that two of the most prominent voices, Joyce and Giles, may or may not be there? Also, I don't think it's wierd that Joyce would be interacting with Buffy in her dreams. It kind of reminds me of Greek mythology where the dead contact the living in dreams, and you know who the Greek god of dreams was, Morpheus (hmmm) - of note, he could impersonate any mortal, dead or alive, in dreams. See what being an English major got me...

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 12:52 a.m. CST

    Oh, and I hate Marti Noxon...

    by dalis

    why does her writing of Willow never mesh with any of the other writers? I'm tired of Willow being a whiny, ineffectual retard. Why can't she just go evil and sort out the bodies later in between muff dives?

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 12:54 a.m. CST

    I hope we aren't hooking Xander up with Dawn

    by Entilzha Proph

    that just doesn't set well with me. Ideally I'd like a Connor Dawn, but failing that, either someone new, or build Andrew up somewhat. I definatly get the impression he's gonna be a scrappy gang member. But not xander, please?? Or spike.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 2:46 a.m. CST

    Giles is sooo not dead

    by GPL Racer

    I'm not sure why I am bothering with this this late, especially with the TB order so screwed up, but here goes. Have any of you people flown on an airplane ever? There is no way in hell an incorporeal being could check in with tickets and passport, which must be handed to the agent for examination, board the plane and FASTEN HIS SEATBELT. Do you have any idea how small airplane seats are, except in First Class? You pretty much cannot avoid touching the person next to you. I guess the SIT's could have been on a different flight than the fake Giles so he didn't actually have to fly, but that doesn't make sense either if he claims to be protecting them. BTW, Giles has both hands. They are occasionally visible if you watch closely. ASH keeps his arms crossed or his hands in his pockets so he doesn't accidentally blow the take by touching something. They're just trying to mess with our heads, and if this talkback is representative, they succeeded beyond their wildest expectations. Just in case you missed it in someone else's post, the movie reference was to Signs, not Sixth Sense. Drusilla casts a shadow in the ep, so that is not a determinative test. If you were with someone who fell into a hole in the ground, wouldn't you go look for a rope or something? Eyghon possesed Ripper and the boys when they went to sleep so the First can't impersonate him because of that.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 4:27 a.m. CST

    Drath

    by Thalya

    Actually, that whole Death Is Your Gift is really what screwed Buffy up and created season 6, I think. At the end of my argument there, I was trying to echo what Buffy was pleading to Angel in Amends, to not kill himself. Also, to add to the dichotomy, it looks like there's a definite line between Heaven=Good/Earth=Evil, particularly with the general mundane corruptive power of the world, of everyday life which is the show's central conceit. // Also, anyone else think that Joyce's line about Buffy being unable to make the sun rise has anything to do with Dawn? // And here's a wacky idea. What if the First Evil and a possible First Good or God are one and the same, and the Evil side is the destructive half of the persona, so we've got this giant worldwide macrocosmic struggle going on while at the same time it is precisely the inner struggle of each Scoob, no metaphor. The evil within is the evil without. // I love working in the abstract if you couldn't tell.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 4:55 a.m. CST

    I predict that Giles is "sorta" dead...

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    He's in a coma. The off-screen witches -- mentioned briefly in the S6 finale (who powered up Giles to fight Willow) and whom Willow learned from during her time away from Sunnydale -- have astrally projected Giles conscience to Sunnydale to help Buffy. So it really is Giles, but he doesn't exist in corporal form. And I'm afraid that time could be running out for his life. This is why Giles has not revealed his condition to Buffy and the Scoobs. They've gone through enough death with the loss of Joyce and Tara, so he's putting off this news for as long as he possibly can.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 5:06 a.m. CST

    GIles in a coma.

    by IdFuckAvril

    This sounds very plausible. Giles actually being The First seems so obvious. So I'm banking that it really is Giles. But the twist is that he no longer exists physically. Those witches who sent Giles to Sunnydale in last season's finale to fight Willow are behind this. Giles is in a coma in a hospital bed in England, but his brain and conscience are still active. The witches have projected his image astrally to Sunnydale. Yes, that works. He's sparing Buffy and everybody else the bad news. They have dealt with enough death of loved ones. He's on borrowed time. This spell they're using won't last. Imagine the angst when Buffy finally learns the truth and Giles starts to fade away in the finale. I don't think Giles is going to die when/if the series ends this season, but rather his body will remain in a comatose state -- until Joss can finally get this Ripper spinoff series off the ground. Only then Giles would recover physically and get back into action.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 5:35 a.m. CST

    Drath - International Slayers

    by dalael35

    In Fool for Love, you know, the one where Spike tells Buffy how he killed those two slayers, the first one he killed was CHINESE! Sounds globally international to me.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 9:01 a.m. CST

    I'm convinced that Giles is not dead

    by kobayashi

    Its a simple slight-of-hand trick people... they're MAKING us watch Giles, wondering if he's dead... but watch the background.... someone is Morphy - but its not Giles.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 11:25 a.m. CST

    More Problems with Giles Being Dead

    by GPL Racer

    We have never seen Morphy appear to more than one person before. I don't think we have even seen Morphy in daylight. Giles must have come to chez Summers in a car or taxi. Who drove or who paid for the cab? Surely not one of the SIT's. If he had enough power to teleport himself and the SIT's to Sunnydale, the axe couldn't have hurt him. How did the SIT get the files on the First? The simplest explanation is that Giles is still corporeal, although I do like the idea that Ubervamp (is there in fact more than one) was repelled by Giles and not sunlight (no smoke). But if UV is immune to sunlight too, then why does it have to wait for dark to attack?

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Giles Spoilers

    by Synn

    If you really want to know what's up with Giles, they have posted some major spoilage at TVTome.com Don't say I didn't warn you.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 12:22 p.m. CST

    "Giles" is the First Good

    by emvan

    . . . or something like that. Yin / yang, darkness and light. Josh loves these balance themes. If there's a First Evil, there obviously is its ancient antagonist, too. Probably with a connection to the First Slayer and the founding of the Watchers. Dreams have been very important in this season, especially this ep, and that's how the First Slayer first manifested herself. And it will turn out that Buffy having sacrificed herself, and having been brought back from death by her friends, will be necessary to stop the First Evil. This ties in with the notion that the First Good and Evil can manifest themselves only as the dead (which right now seems arbitrary.) Thus, big massive themes connecting Life and Death to Good and Evil. Which will of course resonate beautifully against the huge question of Spike being Dead but no longer Evil, but Good. And also of course making "death is your gift" do double duty, and tying this story arc to the last two seasons. And making it All Worthwhile. In short: everyone talks about Art being about the Meaning of Life, but in fact the Meaning of Life is actually pretty obvious: it's to have fun. (Something that Spike has always understood -- think of his "happy meals on legs" speech -- and something that's virtually been denied to Buffy because of her Slayer duties). But the Meaning of Death: that's a bitch. That's the toughy that we all spend our lives banging our heads against the wall about. BTVS is all about the Meaning of Death. And Josh actually has an answer. Maybe not the "real" answer, but one that, after 7 seasons, we will look back and find metaphorically and artistically satisfying. True. And that's why BTVS is not just the best TV show in history, but one of the great works of Western art.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 2:16 p.m. CST

    But...

    by Anyawatcher

    you'll be a jackass and post them in a talkback that's about episode 7.10 I believe there was a TB for fute Buffy/Angel eppy's go there bwstarwars. Better yet just go back to writing your stupid poems. Atleast then when everyone scrolls past them they won't catch something about Buffy they don't want to know.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 3:27 p.m. CST

    Ditto

    by Anyawatcher

    Ditto. Admit you are wrong and smash your computer. You don't know how to use it. mmmm Kennedy and Willow. Hope Kennedy has a BIG appetite.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 3:30 p.m. CST

    Stupid Phoenix & Emmy goes to...

    by shadojava

    To Chastain86, I feel your pain. I too am deprived of my Tuesday fix when the NBA season kicks off. UPN has a long standing contract with the Phx Suns to televise, prepaid and not in any threat to be changed for the likes of a cult fave like Buffy. If the team was worth any shit, the pre-empt might not be so painful. So far, UPN has been pretty consistent about airing the week's episode on Saturdays at 9pm. Pray they stick to this. To Buff Angel about Emmy noms, dream on as the cast members do. If WB was totally lacking in any thought to support their cash cow for TV high honors, the UPN marketing unit exists with their collective head up the ass. The cast must be satisfied with the praise showered upon them by those of us who give a damn (and pay the bills for the show). So to all, keep those words of praise coming. Happy Holidays!

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 3:40 p.m. CST

    Golden Globes denies Buffy again

    by Anyawatcher

    What a shit award show, shouldn't be surprised. Best supporting actor(tv movies inc.) had 9 friggin nominations and no James Marsters. Sopranos has a shit season and still gets some nods. how the hell did The Simpson's sneak in there. Here's hoping the AFI awards nominate Buffy again this year.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 3:53 p.m. CST

    Question regarding opening titles

    by fireworks

    Sorry this is not in connection with any of the preceding but had a question. For the past 2 seasons, the opening titles end with a fake Buffy

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 4:11 p.m. CST

    A few thoughts on Giles (what else?)

    by slaygal21

    I believe Giles is still alive. They just want to mess with us, make us think he's morphy. Similarly to in Seeing Red, when for the very first time Amber Benson was in the credits, but by the end of the episode she was dead. It was a mean trick. Another thought, someone mentioned before, about how Giles is leaning on counters and sitting down. Drusilla leaned on the rock Spike was on. So I guess the fact that Giles can lean on something doesn't mean he's not Morphy. But as I said before I believe he's alive. He has to be, hes Giles.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 4:28 p.m. CST

    Fellowship music, anyone??

    by GypsyTRobot

    During Buffy's rah-rah speech, I recall some music which sounded suspiciously like music from The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring. Anyone else notice this? My VCR ain't working so I can't rewind for further investigation.

  • Dec. 19, 2002, 11:48 p.m. CST

    There is honor among thieves...

    by dalis

    Barry, hi. Normally, I don't comment on you or your poetry or your naysayers, but I have to make a point about your spoilers. I know you have access to some great exclusive knowledge of what is to come - whoop-de-doo! What I have a problem with is the COURTESY OF A WARNING, or the lack-thereof on your posts. Please, please, please, there are some of us who care a bit more about comments, questions, and insights about the current episode than whatever you can dig up. I have one question. Are you trying to punish the people who bitched about your poetry by surprising us with spoilers that carry no warnings. Why? You know it will get you booted.

  • Dec. 20, 2002, 12:26 a.m. CST

    Shut up Barry,

    by Hoof Hearted

    I hate you.

  • Dec. 20, 2002, 1:51 a.m. CST

    Fireworks and Herc

    by Thalya

    Fireworks, you know that's a damn good observation and if you ask me, indicative that Buffy truly came back wrong. I'm not sure if you're going to get much discussion on it here, but I can recommend a place where you'll get a more fair shot at getting it discussed. Send me an e-mail and I'll reply with the address of the place if you're interested (and that goes for anyone else who has an urge to discuss Buffy during this next hiatus). //// Herc, I have to agree with all the others complaining about bwstarwars. He's not adding anything, throwing in giant loaded spoilers with absolutely no warning, and hasn't contributed to this place in a credible way at all. I come here for the ideas and discussion about each episode that takes place and tend to avoid spoilers like the plague, especially since I OD'ed last year. He's not appreciated.

  • Dec. 20, 2002, 11:18 a.m. CST

    the prom episode

    by casmcthorn

    Hey just watched the prom episode again.For you Danny strong fans I saw jon,in the background walking with a hot lonlegged lady wonder who she was.Also Jack Mayhew won class clown, wonder where he is now?For you everything is a clue people Buffy says When do i get my day of glory.Well she got a lot of them in season five. Five By Five Im out.

  • Dec. 20, 2002, 1:48 p.m. CST

    Speculation based on internal evidence in ep 7.10, so not techni

    by GPL Racer

    Someone in chez Summers scared the SIT so badly she ran out of the house. It's not Giles for all the reasons I cited in my earlier posts. The other SIT's have all been seen manipulating physical objects in the ep, sheets and blankets, cereal and cookie boxes and coffee cups, etc. So who is it? I think we can safely rule out Buffy, Xander and Anya as there is no evidence of them having been exposed, therefore the logical suspect is Willow. After the locating spell goes bad, Willow says she can feel it, presumably the First, inside her. Buffy tells her it has left, but how could she know? Answer, she can't possibly know and is just trying to calm Willow, who is now, in fact, possessed. There is a definite aspect of Greek tragedy here with Willow as the tragic hero punished for excessive pride. Willow never claimed to be powerful until episode 6-3 when she threatened Giles after he read her the riot act and it has been downhill for her ever since.

  • Dec. 20, 2002, 2:18 p.m. CST

    opening titles &why the SiT left

    by Anyawatcher

    The first two seasons i believe it ended with Buffy after she Killed Luke and the camera moved in on her from underneath. In the commentary Joss likened this to Spielberg and his hero shots. The next end shot was from Anne, same thing camera moves in from underneath. This was used in seasons 3/4. Pretty sure it was used in season 5 too. It was replaced by The Buffybot in season six which was camera moving in and i believe from underneath. The morph Buffy of season 7 is a tilt up and not in but still a hero shot. While it could mean something I still think it's more to show Buffy in the best light. And the Sit leaving, she seemed way uptight and scared. She just cracked.

  • Dec. 20, 2002, 4:24 p.m. CST

    Reason for SIT Leaving

    by GPL Racer

    Just cracked? The busy little note taker who writes down Buffy's every word in her handy notepad (or was it a PDA)? Sorry, but if someone in the house just cracked, I would expect to see them huddled in the basement or under a bed, not running through the known to be extremely dangerous streets of Sunnydale at night. The SIT's haven't been shown to be in any immediate danger since they arrived. Besides, it's a drama, nothing important just happens. If she had just cracked, they could have shown it. The fact that it wasn't shown is evidence in itself that something is being hidden. Not to mention the extremely smelly Giles red herring which appears to have been amazingly successful in misdirecting everyone's attention. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that something in the house was so frightening that the streets seemed safer. That something can only be a possessed Willow.

  • Dec. 21, 2002, 5:24 a.m. CST

    something else to add to the mix, specifically concerning GPL Ra

    by Entilzha Proph

    Did anyone else notice WHO was carring the books? It was annabella (Sp), the slayer who ran. You can take that a number of ways, but at the very least, assuming what Giles said about the first being incoporial, Annabella is not the first - doesn't mean she's not on its side.

  • Dec. 22, 2002, 4:16 p.m. CST

    Now, the questions are

    by Entilzha Proph

  • Jan. 5, 2003, 9:14 a.m. CST

    Faith & Willow and the LAW!

    by SkurdJ

    Question: Why did Buffy force faith to go to jail after she had "mostly accidentally" killed a human being, but when Willow deliberatly kills a human being she gets a slap on the wrist? Shouldn't she be doing time? Or does the fact that the scumbag accidentally killed Tara outweigh the laws of the land? I thought killing humans was a no-no?