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TWO TOWERS Reviews Storming In From Movie House Screening! So Why Does Everyone Want To Feed MTV To The Wargs'!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Hey, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab.
These are the strangest reviews. You’ve got people here who have just seen a film they adored in a situation they loathed. Odd combination. You’ll see what I mean as you dig in. This first guy couldn’t even quite manage to review the film he was so angry...
Hey Harry - Just back from an MTV "Movie House" screening of "The Two Towers." This is not going to be a review of the amazing movie I just saw (which I believe I can say is my favorite of the year) (so you have an idea of my tastes, that list also includes Adaptation, Punch-Drunk Love, Bowling for Columbine and About Schmidt (in that order)). No....this is not a review of "The Two Towers," this is a criticism of the devils who work for, and represent, MTV.
I wasn't aware of what MTV's "Movie House" was/is (hopefully it will only be "was" after this season). Apparently the show consists of watching movie-goers walk into a theater, watch them fake scream 'n' holler, and then interview them a bit afterwards and ask what they thought of the film. Oh...maybe I forgot one other part of the show...they also GO INTO THE THEATER WITH A CAMERA WITH A BIG LIGHT ON IT D! URING THE FILM AND ASK RANDOM PEOPLE WHAT THEY THINK OF THE MOVIE WHILE THEY'RE WATCHING IT!
Now I guess I'm not supposed to complain because they did provide me with a free movie, but can we please talk about the sheer stupidity of having a show where the movie-goers are interrupted DURING the film to see what they think!? OK, ok...if that's what they want their show to be about, who am I to stop them....but COME ON - how about a night-vision camera.....and if that IS what they use...how about a night-vision camera that doesn't need a big, bright freakin' light on it that shines RIGHT IN THE EYES OF THE AUDIENCE! MTV obviously doesn't care for The Two Towers....they obviously don't care about the moviegoing experience either.
OH YEAH - I forgot another important detail....the camera crew & "host" come in RIGHT WHEN THE BIG FINAL BATTLE BEGINS and they don't leave until it's over. You can hear the host asking questions during quiet moments in the film....there's a HUGE glare on the screen, completely RUINING the moment for everyone caught up in it, they even asked certain people to get out of their seats so the host can sit there and interview the person sitting next to them. Now I understand that maybe MTV as a whole is not responsible for this blatant disregard for the moviegoing experience, but the people who represented MTV tonight surely don't give two shits about it. Often times the cameraman would keep the light on for up to a minute after they stopped filming a particular segment.....for no reason....like he just FORGOT that the light on his camera
was creating giant shadows on the screen. They also shut off the movie the SECOND it went to black, no credits, no end title score, nothing - and when you see this movie you will understand the importance of needing to bask in its glory for a few moments after the final image fades. This movie is like nothing else, watching it I felt like what it must have been like to see "Star Wars" for the first time (the level of fun, excitement, and the thrill of seeing the best CGI to date) - and the fact that I can still love it as much as I do is a testament to the film - it easily combated the dark, evil forces of MTV's "Movie House" crew.
So please....everyone who loves film...do NOT watch MTV's "Movie House" - do not support this show in any way...I DESPERATELY urge any and all studios to not allow their films to be ruined by this dumb excuse for a clever idea - I mean, how can you help but be negatively affected by something as distracting as the giant shadow of host Nick something-or-others head during the CLIMAX of the film! PLEASE - what is wrong with you MTV? Just because you don't have a respect or even appreciation for the art of film doesn't mean you have to go around ruining other peoples' experiences - I will never get that FIRST experience back, I can only imagine how much more I would
have liked the film if I could have watched it properly.
At one point - after almost 2 hours of fake cheering for the camera - one of the show's producers said "one more thing and then we'll start this stupid thing" WE WERE ALREADY DOING THE "STUPID THING" - how dare this woman refer to the ! film as the "stupid thing" when she's busy trying to make money off someone else's brilliant idea. Anyway - sorry for ranting...but I can't just sit quiet while people who don't know shit about creativity go along
bastardizing the moviegoing experience (and I apologize for saying "moviegoing experience" so many times - I just like that phrase).
AKASozeYikes. It couldn’t really have been that bad and that obtrusive... right?
Long time reader of the site, first time contributor of information....
Imagine if you will: Aragorn stands along the wall of the Helms Deep fortress, looking down on 10,000 orcs ready to attack. The music swells, my heart begins to race as I'm about to experience what I had been waiting all year to see, the much talked about and anticipated Battle for Helms Deep. Then, the moment the action is about to really begin, a camera makes its way into the theater. Not just any camera mind you, an MTV movie house camera. The host of the show walks in, and the camera, bright lights and all follow
him around the theater for 25 minutes as he "chats" with audience members trying to watch the film. The lights of the camera shinning either in the eyes of the crowd trying to watch the film, or directly at the screen, blocking the brilliant colors and images on screen with light and shadows of this host guys head.......
A friend of mine called me earlier today with an invitation one just cannot pass up, the chance to see The Lord of the RIngs: The Two Towers. I thought it would be your average sneak preview screening. This however was an MTV Movie House screening. Ok, I can put up with them filming me walking into the theater a few times, and a few shots of me happily cheering in a crowd...so long as I get to see The Two Towers. But I was not prepared for them walking in on THE CLIMAX OF THE ENTIRE FILM!!!! with a camera and basically disturbing everyone watching. I know, I'm being greedy by going to see a sneak screening of this film, and complaining...but who out there could honestly turn down an invitation to see The Two Towers???
Let me put all the movie house stuff on the side, and tell you about the film. It is breathtaking. My worst fear going into the film was that I would over anticipate it. I would build it up so much in my mind, and get let down massively. Its happened several times to me in recent years, and I did not want it to happen now. I wanted this film to be everything I hoped it would be....IT WAS MORE!
I'm a big believer that your entire movie going experience affects the way you perceive a film. On any given day, you could walk into any film and just love the hell out of it, or really dislike a great film....all based on what mood you were in at the time you saw it....
Well, with what happened during the film, I should have been in a crappy mood. There was plenty of reason for me to have a bad feeling walking out of the theater. And i did in many ways, but it wasn't directed towards the film. I was angered because this film is OUTSTANDING in everyway. I'm pissed because I can never have the experience of seeing this film for the first time back again. There are so many moments in this film that will astound everyone. From as dramatic as the Battle of Helms Deep, to as simple as Legolas getting on a horse....these are images I want to see...need to see again, several times in fact. But I will never get to see them for the FIRST time ever again. My first experience with this film was tarnished by the MTV people who decided to walk in and film during the most amazing sequence of film I've seen this year....
A lesser film would not have stood up against such an experience. The Two Towers did. The effects in this film are better than anything I've ever seen. Gollum is the best CG character ever on film...imagine a CG character more involving and interesting than half of the actors working in Hollywood today. The film is beautiful. After seeing The Fellowship of the Ring, I couldn't imagine how any film could make me want to visit New Zealand more....well, The Two Towers has....The actors not only are good, they OWN these characters now...Every expectation I had was exceeded. After leaving the theater I only had three thoughts on my mind, When can I see this again??? I Want the third film NOW!!!! and COULD SOMEONE PLEASE SHOOT THIS IDIOT IN THE HEAD (referring to the MTV guy)....
I only have two things to say to your readers in conclusion: See The Two Towers on the big screen. Even if you didn't like the first one, your eyes deserve the treat...Secondly, if ever given the opportunity to see a film in sneak screening given by the MTV Movie House.....DON'T GO....spend the 8 bucks to have an enjoyable trip to the movie theater instead.
Thank you for your time, and I hope this letter is of some use to the readers of your site. Also, thank you for having this site in the first place...it is a joy to read, and has been a favorite daily stop of mine.....I am not a plant......
Most people have a made up name to hide their identity, so you can call me...
SUPERGSome people were so excited by the film that they didn’t even seem to notice the MTV crews...
Hey Harry, it's my first time writing you, but I couldn't pass up this opportunity. My friends and I were going to see Solaris the other night (that's obviously a whole different topic and review) when we were approached by a guy who said "Hey, you wanna see The Two Towers?" I don't even think he had finished the word "Towers" before we had already taken the papers out of his hands. So we show up tonight for the MTV screening of the film, now I'm not a huge fan of MTV-but I am thankful they gave me this opportunity. Unfortunately, I got placed in the center of the FRONT ROW for the showing, but luckily my neck is as thick as a dwarf's and my eyes as keen as the elf.Let me just say that this film is AMAZING. Beyond amazing even. Take everything you thought the first one was, and make it ten times better. GOLLUMGeorge Lucas eat your heart out. I'm sure you've already received other reviews discussing this and that about aspects relating to the book, I'll just say this-my goal was to read the book before the movie came out, but I didn't plan on seeing it 2 and a half weeks early, so I'm only halfway through the book. Yes, there are differences (most notably Helm's Deep being the climax of the movie) but I don't care. This movie hooked me in the beginning with Gandalf's fight and I was literally cheering out loud through the rest of it. When the Elves arrive at Helm's Deep I wanted to stand up and cheer. It was also nice to get to see some of the unexplained parts of the first movie get used in this one (the cloaks and the rope). Also-how freaking cool is it when Legolas jumps up onto the horse!!
Harry, I realize I'm not horribly knowledgeable on this trilogystop teasing me!! Take this for what you will, and if you do end up posting this just say~
It's Always 57Want another?
Hello Harry and everyone out there in Middle Earth. I had the glorious fortune tonight of catching an advance screening of The Two Towers with the MTV Moviehouse people. For those that may not know, Moviehouse is a show on MTV that tries to be a hip Access Hollywood. I think "tries" is the active word in that sentence. As an audience member for this screening we were asked to clap and cheer and look happy for the camera which was present at almost all times before during and after the movie. This was to say the least, highly annoying. I did not mind the cameras before...nor would I have minded them after.....but during....this would prove to be a HUGE, HUGE....bitchslap to us all in the end. Nightshot cameras? Fine....we can't see a light....but imagine this my fellow movie watchers..imagine getting ready for the battle of HELMS DEEP! The batlle which we have all heard so much about...imagine having your fists clenched in suspense, ready for the battle of orcs versus men that the film has been leading up to...imagine your heart beating with anticipation for the kick ass battle of all battles when......HERE COMES MTV INTO THE THEATER WITH A BLINDING FUCKING LIGHT AND A CAMERAMAN BLARING INTO YOUR EYES!!!!!! This followed by an interviewer ( the show host) holding his own tiny ass camera sitting down to do interviews with people while the battle wages on!!! Can you believe this? I was in complete dissarray....and this LIGHT and CAMERA which took image away from the screen due to it's harshness continued for the next 25 minutes non stop. Awful....just awful! MTV...you should be ashamed of yourself. If Peter Jackson were there....he would have strangled that cameraman right then and there yelling,"What the hell are you doing, I spent months on this freaking scene and you are ruining it!" Most in the theater covered the light with their hands...others clo! sed their eyes to it's brightness. Yeah...it was annnoying. Aaaaargh! Okay...okay.....I am a bit bitter due to this. But with that in mind...and all that off my chest....here is...finally....a review of The Two Towers.
I will start by saying this....The Two Towers is an amazing accomplishment. The battle scenes are gritty, raw, and feel very real. The sheer scope of the film is astonishing, truly epic, and yes, it does feel much bigger than Fellowship ever did. Everything here is much darker. Where Fellowship was green and earthy, The Two Towers is brown and muddy. The whole film has a very real intensity to it. Once again the world of Tolkien comes to life right before your very eyes.
And it really does take off right away.
From the first frame we are thrown right back into Middle Earth. We get to see exactly what happened to Gandalf in a mind bending fight down the endless corridors of Moria with the Balrog. We find out how he became Gandalf the White. From that we see Frodo and Sam....and for the first time Gollum. I was pretty impressed with how Gollum looked. It's pretty damn convincing. He is just like we all would picture and hope him to be....right down to the sweat, teeth, eyes, and skin.
He moves so smoothly....I forgot I was watching a CGI dude every once in a while. He wears these kickin' shorts through the film...if Gollum had hair i could see him with
a surfboard hittin' waves. Blue Crush 2 maybe? Gollum is just cool. You gotta see it to believe it. I am glad the trailers hide him....he is worth the surprise.
So what about Aragorn? Gimli? Legolas? They all kick some serious ass in this movie. Aragorn as always weilding his sword...Legolas with those sweet dead on arrows...and Gimli....ha....Gimli is the comic relief in this movie. There are countless gags with Gimli that had me giggling like a child throughout. I missed those guys and was glad to see them again. Aragorn just feels so intense in every scene....so glad they got Viggo to do this role. He is perfect. His love for Arwen is brought into the foreground...and Eowyn ( not bad, could have chosen a prettier more intense actress) comes along to throw salt in his game.
There really is so much in this movie. Orcs on wolves battling our heroes, marsh graveyards with evil ghosts, Wormtongue and the sickened king, the ENTS revenge on Isengard, The Black Riders on flying horses...the Nazgul! Breathtaking. This is still an image I cannot get out of my head...Flying Nazgul....scary as hell, visually amazing
stuff. The whole movie has this mood of forboding doom.
Merry and Pippin are a bit overlooked....they spend a lot of their time in a tree. And maybe that is why they are overlooked....the tree steals the damn show. Yeah, the ENTS are pretty awesome. Treebeard is an astonoshing creature to look at. The voice and eyes shook the room.
One thing that stands out as a reader of the book is the large amount of liberties that Jackson and company have taken. It didn't really bother me too much. However, I did feel that Sam and Frodo spent a little too much time under the custody of Faramir. Where in the book, I remember their meeting being very short lived...here it becomes a huge part of the journey. There is also much talked about addition of Arwen and Aragorn's love story which I felt was slightly out of place but also neccessary.
It is something that was left unexplained in the books that i am glad exists here. Aragorn does end up at Helms Deep in a different manner. One big thing is the ending....no Shelob....no cliffhanger like the book. But after all is said and done it all seems to work.
The pace of the film is pretty damn brisk...moves right along as we go from each character's story back and forth. Just when you get bored with one thing you are off to another. From Frodo, to Merry and Pippin, to Aragorn and so on. Although it is three hours it moves right along.
The action is the true star of this movie. The battle of Helms Deep seemed to be very exciting and suspenseful to me (damn those MTV people). Whenever there is action this film is at it's best. I love the fact that a lot of the action is shot from far off vantage points. We really get to see the size of these scenes. Always a far off angle allowing us to get a sense of how HUGE things are. Jackson is great at doing shots without cuts that take us right in there! For instance...when those ENTS go into Isengard to show Saruman whose boss...we get a full on pulled back view of the anarchy and chaos.
On the downside...I felt the ending was a bit weak....it definitely would have been better with a cliffhanger ending. I wanted to leave that theater begging for the next chapter. Instead it ends like Fellowship....there goes Sam and Frodo to that scary Mordor place again...sigh. Would have been cooler to get us to Shelobs Lair. I wanted
that Han Solo in carbonite ending... you know... goosebumps... fear.... all of that. I also think the effects here and there could have used more man hours. Maybe this print was grimy....maybe this was not a final cut print. Some of the wolves and gandalf scenes looked a bit rushed. But hey other than that....a great film. In my opinion, Fellowship is better just because it is a more emotional journey. This one does not bring us as close to Gandalf or Frodo, the approach is more cut and dry....let's kick some ass.
I will definitely be seeing this one again so that I may truly watch it. I cannot fairly judge that Helms Deep battle due to the MTV interruption. I will be pissed about that til' my dying day.
I know there is so much more I could say....and this has been a bit jumbled. But it all feels like a dream....like it happened to someone else....i still can't believe i saw the movie!!! I am totally out of it...too much Shire weed....ahhhh.
Well, until next time.
Call me
GooseHow about one more?
I'll use very few 'spoilers' in this review, nothing that will ruin anything truly important for anyone. Plus, the other reviews pretty much covered the plot. Oh, and I haven't read the books, and loved "The Fellowship of the Ring"
I caught a screening of "The Two Towers" in LA at The Bridge theater tonight, which was run by MTV for the TV show "Movie House." So throughout the screening they'd be walking up and down the aisles, asking people what they think of the movie, blasting their camera light all over, which was annoying as hell. Especially since they started doing it during the battle of Helm's Deep. Other than that, the screening went great. We even got nifty "Two Towers" shirts afterwords! And I mean nifty.
Having just seen the movie, my feelings about the film are very similar to those directly after my first viewing of "Fellowship" - I definitely liked it a lot, but there is so much to take in that it just requires a second viewing to catch everything and really love it. After my second screening of "Fellowship," it solidified the fact that it's a great movie, and I think the same will go for "The Two Towers."
I guess the major question people are asking is whether it holds up to the original. Since "The Two Towers" really doesn't have as clear-cut a opening or a closing as the first, it's kind of unfair to say it's "better" or "worse;" it's just a continuation of the story. Picking up directly where "Fellowship" leaves off, it feels like it's part of the same film, which is definitely a good thing. So, uh.. if I had to answer the question I would say "The Two Towers" is equal to "Fellowship"... both great in their own rights, but neither of them really better than the other. Judging the film by itself is like picking a favorite chapter from a book - you need to have read the book as a whole rather than just looking at certain chapters. And I think to properly judge "The Lord of the Rings," we'll need to see the whole trilogy.
If I had to point out any qualms I had with the film, I guess I missed some of the quieter moments from the first installment, like the Hobbiton sequence. But "The Two Towers" is a much darker chapter, so I can't say I would have liked it more if there were more of the cutesy moments in this film... I think I just missed them, if that makes sense. Actually, I suppose that's a good thing, since the film is so much colder in tone, we're supposed to miss such warm scenes. So never mind that.
But I did miss Gandalf the Grey. I loved McKellan's portrayal of Gandalf in the first... he was so likable, so subtle in his portrayal of the wizard, that you just can't help but miss the geezer in this one. While it's nice to see him alive in the form of Gandalf the White, his character plays a much smaller role in this film. But overall, I really had no noteworthy problems (Okay, maybe one -Samwise's speech near the end comes to mind, where he preaches for "the need to fight evil for the sake of good," which I found a tad too corny, even for a Hobbit. But still, it was brief...)
Gollum was amazing. This will probably become somewhat of a cliche to say, since you can't help but be blown away by Andy Serkis'/the CGI's (which isn't flawless, but works wonderfully well) performance. His struggle within, over whether he should lead the hobbits or kill them for 'his precious,' is fleshed out wonderfully. There is one scene where his two personalities clash that I found to be pretty much genius (reminiscent of Willem Defoe's mirror scene in "Spider-man," but far superior. Faaar superior). Gollum was just so multi-layered, and I felt for him so much, that he might just be my favorite part of the film (definitely the most memorable). There was that much to the ugly bastard.
Concerning the CGI, most of it was quite amazing. To nitpick, the Wargs (wolf things that orcs ride) looked pretty fake. It didn't detract from the scene (which was a great little battle), but they were the weakest point of the CGI in the film, if I had to choose. Other than that... I found the CGI on par with anything Industrial Light and Magic can put out.
The fact is, "The Two Towers" has no real problems that take away from the film, just maybe some niggling thingies here and there. (I really had no complaints about Arwen's scenes in the film, as an earlier reviewer did. I think it added depth and drive to Aragorn's character.) There is just so much to love in this movie. Your opinions of it will most likely mirror your feelings for "Fellowship."
"The Two Towers" is amazing. It may suffer a tad from being the middle movie, but once "Return of the King" comes out (which I'm positive will be great... no pressure, Mr. Jackson, it will be), it'll tie the three chapters together into one solid story. I think then the three films will really be seen as one, just as Tolkien intended with the novels.
Oh, Helm's Deep doesn't really require much description - it was just mind-blowing. And sorry if I say "amazing" too much . Ehh, once more: amazing. That one felt good.
-- Poop MobileAnd after all... if you can’t trust a man named Poop Mobile, then who CAN you trust?!
"Moriarty" out.
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That's a HORRIBLE way to see a movie, especially TTT.
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sucks
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This post on aint it cool may just be the tipping point this show needs. this is going to receive mainstream media attention...fantastic. great job folks
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... soon enough it can't come.... (See, Yoda likes LOTR). That MTV thing sounds like the WORST way to see a film. I get irritated by a small cough, a guy with a camera would have me into Beserker Rage!
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MTV IS THE FUCKING ANTICHRIST!!!! I CAN NOT BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE HEART TO CREATE AN IDEA LIKE THAT TO FUCK UP AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE!!!! MTV IS SOULLESS, DOES NOT SHOW MUSIC, IS STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE AND IS MORE ABOUT CORPORATIONS SHOWING WHAT AUDIENCES DON'T WANT!!!!!! IT SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN, except for MTV2 which is quite alright.
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MTV IS THE FUCKING ANTICHRIST!!!! I CAN NOT BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE HEART TO CREATE AN IDEA LIKE THAT TO FUCK UP AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE!!!! MTV IS SOULLESS, DOES NOT SHOW MUSIC, IS STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE AND IS MORE ABOUT CORPORATIONS SHOWING WHAT AUDIENCES DON'T WANT!!!!!! IT SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN, except for MTV2 which is quite alright.
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MTV IS THE FUCKING ANTICHRIST!!!! I CAN NOT BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE HEART TO CREATE AN IDEA LIKE THAT TO FUCK UP AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE!!!! MTV IS SOULLESS, DOES NOT SHOW MUSIC, IS STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE AND IS MORE ABOUT CORPORATIONS SHOWING WHAT AUDIENCES DON'T WANT!!!!!! IT SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN, except for MTV2 which is quite alright.
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I would have made them eat that mictophone if they tried to stick it in my face - especially during TTT, hell, during any movie. Another great idea from MTV - let's courage people to talk during films. As for reviews, they seemed positive but I'm from now on I'll go on spoiler free - see ya on TTTTB's after 18th.
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Dec 03, 2002 9:04:11 AM CST
I have never had the chance, and have probably missed it already
by hildebrand
FIRST. I am such a geek.
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Thanks for the reviews. While TTT may not be the 'prefect' film. It will surely blow away whatever myths and legends might remain of Star Wars Ep 1, 2, and 3.
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Vader porks Portman. Empire rises to power. OB1 saves Portman with some betral heavy drama. Lots of running and special effects. Bad dialog. Portman squeezes out a couple of kids to be hidden. CGI Yoda reappears because that seems to be the only thing anybody liked in EP1 or 2. Lots of new vehicles and creatures to make toys out of. Lucas says the movie is "dark" in every interview. The seeds of the Rebelion begin the sprout. Vader gets burnt up and puts on the mask. The end.
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We simply have no choice at this point. MTV is the leading exponent and facilitator of the Solipsist Nation. Our culture simply cannot survive if it crawls an further up its own ass, devouring and vomiting back up any and all crusty turds it finds along the way. Everyone is NOT interesting, everything is NOT po-mo campy fun, everyone's opinion is NOT valid. Some people are morons. We don't care how they dress, how they sing, and how they feel aobut the movies they watch. We don't care about how they get along with their roommates, or their teammates on some dopey, fake island set-up. They cannot string two intellegent sentences together and likely cannot utter one that does not reference their own internal emotional state. -- Thought experiment, an MTV show called Book Club. How fucking funny would THAT be? -- Some things are timeless and stand apart from the 15 minute sales cycle SonyAOLDisneyViacom has the weak-minded on. Whomever is responsible for New Line promo in the US shoulda said thanks but no thanks to MTV. The film, the story will do fine without the MTV treatment. MTV Must Be Destroyed.
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Cheers for the reviews. Pity about the camera crew coming in.
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Look at me! It's cool and hip to fuck up movies for everyone now. What a stupid shit concept. And I thought a baby cryin' and loud candy wrappers were bad. This is the worst. MTV is a bunch of assholes.
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Peter Jackson is a shrewd dude. By making all three films back-to-back he ensured one, essential ingredient in his movies - continuity and consistency. The Two Towers really isn't a sequel in the Hollywood sense. First off, most sequels are written long after an original film. The Two Towers is simply the continuation of a story that existed before the first film was even made. The comparison with the "prequels" of Star Wars is stark: In that case, despite Lucas' revisionist histories and claiming that these stories always existed, it is clear that they did not in all but the most sketched of forms, and the films that those story background elements have been expanded into simply do not "fit" into the Star Wars universe established by the originals. Two Towers was never going to have that problem. Kudos to Peter Jackson but even more to Newline for having faith in him - after all, as good a film maker as he is, he did not exactly have what might be considered a "solid" CV that would recommend him as ideal for tackling a project of this size. Oh. And may MTV burn in the forgotten fetid sewers of hell for all eternity.
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I tell you, if MTV come anywhere near the cinema when i get to watch TTT, then I will burn them.
What good do they serve anyhow? Crap music aimed at promoting only 3-4 artists and trying ever so hard to be in with the crowd. Fucking corporations who try to brainwash the masses should be shut down!!
Sorry they messed up your viewing of what promises to be a fantastic film for the rest of us who WILL wait.
Riandor -
MTV = CANCER FOR THE MIND OF YOUR CHILDREN...i would've punched the guy in the face and burn his fuckin camera..FUCK MTV, burn their studios!
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They are the Antichrist! Bunch of boners.
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You people deserved a MTV showing. The MTV cameraman was the best thing about the film, I am pretty sure. You should have saved your time and rented Attack of the Clones -- the Best Film of the Year 2002, hands down -- Star Wars Episode II. It is far superior to the Two Towers trailer, I have seen clips online of Gollum. You people can't be serious, he's not half as excellent as Jar Jar. As I said somewhere else, and should repeat, care to agree or disagree, it is a free countryu, America, where the best filmmakers are from, that New Line should get George Lucas to direct Return of the King. He knows how to end movies properly, with swelling music and celebrations. If GL re-writes and directs the last installment, then he will steer it in the right direction and at the very minimum make one of the movies good and probably save the franchise, which so far sounds like a creative disaster (which isn't to say it's not a financial disaster, only because the geeky Tolkien fanboys buy toys.) Lucas will change that!! I am Jar Jar, and I am out!!
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Dec 03, 2002 9:52:56 AM CST
Fuck MTV, From Kelly O. To Carson D. OR... "Um, Like, The Movie
by jollydwarf
You know, I didn't even read the reviews (beyond the first couple paragraphs of the first one), but seeing the letters "M","T", and "V" consecutively gets me frothing mad. Not "angry", but "mad". I was listening to Howard Stern going over the top five on the way to work today, and it occurred to me how impossibly shitty the music scene has been for the last 5-7 years. And what happened in that time to make this happen? Another three letters. "T", "R", and "L". It's music that soccer moms and their secretly-blowjob-giving-after-school teen princess hussies can BOTH ENJOY!! It's all about the Britney paradox. You know, the Disney slut. And no, it ain't ever gonna "cycle around" again so that Radiohead pictures are posted on junior high locker doors everywhere. Between turning Ozzy into a pathetic farce, turning his obnoxious daughter into some bargain bin pop-star and making one's music talent measured exclusively by how low his or her jeans ride,MTV is primarily responsible for creating the mental sinkhole underneath Western culture that's threatening to cave in very soon. I may sound like a loon, but I don't think there's any stopping this particular cartoon snowball. If I could walk away from this 'bling-bling' shit to live in the Shire, even without film, Internet access, hell, electricity...I would. Just THANK GOD and Peter Jackson that this trilogy hasn't been contaminated (content-wise) by what's going on out there. Take your fuckin' "Movie House" and screen "The Hot Chick" or its sequel next time.
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MTV is a soulless corporate monster with no respect for it's viewers? they'd ruin a wonderful movie because they think they have a good gimmick? They're absolutely retarded when it comes to knowing what people want? Really? No! God do I hate that fucking station. I'm GLAD I don't get it at my house. Fucking worthless morons. MTV wouldn't know a good, original idea if it walked up to them and introduced itself. Ya know, when I went to see A.I. last summer, someone's cellphone rang. FIVE TIMES. And TWICE the person actually HAD A CONVERSATION. It was summer in Philly, and the a/c was broken in the theater. I honestly thought that was the worst filmgoing experience possible. I realize now I was wrong. I feel for you, reviewers, that's a terrible trick for those rotten MTV assholes to play on you. MTV, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Of course, since your mindless drones, you have no conscience or shame. Ah, well.
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Dec 03, 2002 10:06:03 AM CST
At least we have LOTR to help pass the time until 2005!
by atticus finch
Only 897 more days until Episode III. HURRY UP!!!
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Dec 03, 2002 10:09:25 AM CST
At least we have LOTR to help pass the time until 2005!
by atticus finch
I mean, come on, FOTR was loved by some, hated by some, but most people, including me, found it was just a good movie, nothing more, nothing less. I don't see TTT being anything more than that at best, especially after seeng a clip of Treebeard, which looked so bad both me and my friend laughed out loud. The clips I have seen of Gollum prove that PJ really needs to talk to Rob Coleman and figure out how they did Yoda so well. At least there are only 897 more days until Episode III! HURRY UP!!!
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MTV2 is actually pretty cool, oddly enough.
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MTV2 is actually pretty cool, oddly enough.
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Dec 03, 2002 10:10:28 AM CST
At least we have LOTR to help pass the time until 2005!
by atticus finch
I mean, come on, FOTR was loved by some, hated by some, but most people, including me, found it was just a good movie, nothing more, nothing less. I don't see TTT being anything more than that at best, especially after seeng a clip of Treebeard, which looked so bad both me and my friend laughed out loud. The clips I have seen of Gollum prove that PJ really needs to talk to Rob Coleman and figure out how they did Yoda so well. At least there are only 897 more days until Episode III! HURRY UP!!!
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Dec 03, 2002 10:11:32 AM CST
At least we have LOTR to help pass the time until 2005!
by atticus finch
I mean, come on, FOTR was loved by some, hated by some, but most people, including me, found it was just a good movie, nothing more, nothing less. I don't see TTT being anything more than that at best, especially after seeng a clip of Treebeard, which looked so bad both me and my friend laughed out loud. The clips I have seen of Gollum prove that PJ really needs to talk to Rob Coleman and figure out how they did Yoda so well. At least there are only 897 more days until Episode III! HURRY UP!!!
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I suppose it would have been to much to expect..but MTV is based on sound/visual bites and its no surprise really that they would act like a f***ing bunch of pricks.
I think if i`d been in the audience my first reaction to the camera and its lights might have been to insert it into the host where the sun dont shine.. -
MTV has M2 just to complete their dominance and to pay its guilty conscience to go away. M2 DOES have quality music, though. But it's not a cultural factor. It's more like what this kind of site is: something for the fans and those who have not been permanently intellectually stupefied. M2 is the film that the studio puts out so that they can't be accused of making exclusively lowest-common-denominator drivel. And just like Prodigy and techno didn't hit like Spin was hyping it back in '97, do you REALLY think that the "The" bands are going to replace the ever-adorable Freddie Durstie, Scotty Stappy, and Mr. "8 Mile" himself? Aw, Hells no! I'm gonna get it from some of you pitiful PC-sensitive types, but what ever happened to the white guys who play live instruments (or even keys), don't mind beating themselves up a bit lyrically, and REALIZE "Yes, I'm white and there's very little I can do about it"? Since when was being articulate and Caucasian something to be downright ashamed of?? Hunh?
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These reviews are meaningless. The only review that will hold any weight for me is Moriarty's. His Fellowship review was one of the most empassioned I've ever seen, and it captured in words basically everything I felt about the film, only he said it a lot better than I could probably. Bring on Moriarty's review, it's the only review that matters.
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Dec 03, 2002 10:57:42 AM CST
What kind of asshole pontificates about what "most people" thou
by minderbinder
And cut it out with the "I saw this footage of gollum/treebeard" crap, there's only been a total of what...about a combined three seconds of the two characters released, none of it showing their faces. Nice reviews, sounds like we're in for a treat in a few weeks.
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I was one of the (un)lucky ones able to see Look Whos Talking 2 at the MTV Movie House a few weeks prior to wide release and the MTV fuckholes had Menudo dancing up and down the isles the whole time selling nachos. Needless to say the movie was ruined for me....although I did get head from one of them during the film....I think his name was frito or something.
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some idiot parents decided to bring their baby to a screening of Red Dragon I saw. This idea is THE single worst one MTV has ahd out of all their bad decisions. I canty believe they would ask people what they thought during the movie and ruined the Helms Deep battle. When did MTV forget it is supposed to be about THE MUSIC VIDEOS? MTV just sucks now, except for the osbournes.
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Dec 03, 2002 11:31:26 AM CST
Turn off MTV, and turn off MTV2 as well. My Soapbox Moment.
by trav mcgee
If you want to listen to music, if you want music to improve, then improve your ability to appreciate music, and remove it from moving pictures. Save the TV for dramas and comedies. Listen to the radio, and all of the radio. Go up and down the dial. Listen to Corporate Top 40, Listen to Classic Rock, listen to the Oldies station, listen to hip-hop, listen to the local college radio, don't fear the C&W, find the jazz and the classical and the World Music. Find metal, find electronica, find psychedelia, find bluegrass and soul. Listen to it all, and pay attention, and learn, and trace the influences and styles, or lack thereof, and know the trends and musical history and music's cyclical similarities and artificialities. Put in the time and effort and discover the timelessness of good music, so you can learn to recognize it when it happens today. Separate the music from the music industry's categorizing and demographic labelling. Take chances on albums by artists similar to ones you love, or who have been claimed as influences or source material, and avoid Greatest Hits compilations as much as possible if the artists' complete albums are still in print. Make use of www.allmusic.com, an IMDB of sorts for music. Support your local music scene, if you're old enough. Essentially, separate the Sound from the Image, because the Image is just a distraction, no matter what the music. Develop your own opinions and tastes toward music, based on a solid foundation of diverse musical experience, and make those opinions and tastes heard by those who make and sell music. Turn off MTV and turn off MTV2. Listen to music, don't watch it. Who would have thought, The Buggles had it right from the start. Too bad nobody pulled the plug after that first one. ......As for Two Towers, HOLY SHIT. If it can impress even with those fucking distractions, HOLY SHIT. Two weeks and 23 hours to go, goddamn it.
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Dec 03, 2002 11:33:19 AM CST
I just posted a question to MTV's You Tell US board, to see if t
by wungolioth
Here's the URL in case anyone else wants to give it a shot: http://www.mtv.com/news/youtellus/
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Seriously, this is the most retarded thing I've ever heard in my life. Someone should have knocked those MTV guys on their asses.
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Dec 03, 2002 12:05:47 PM CST
MTV is a granule of corn in the lump of shit that just ejected f
by glass
I hate MTV. I hate it. I hope MTV dies a painful, horrifying death. I hope some pathetic, wishy-washy MTV executive is reading this post right now and cringing and sweating in his fancy women's underwear because he knows IT'S OVER FOR HIS COMPANY. No one likes MTV. NO ONE. MTV is over. Finished. Who watches MTV? Who, I ask you, WHO? Who wants to see Sorority Girls, a bunch of fucking ugly cunts with shaved chins and pimply foreheads and big fat khaki-clad asses crying and bitching because one of their roommates ate all the fucking icecream in their gross, fat ass refrigerators? Not me. BAN MTV.
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Is Jack Black, America's newest edgey fat funnyman, next?
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I haven't watched MTV in 10 years! I stopped watching MTV as soon as I realized that it would be the driving force in the kind of music we would listen to. This is unfortunate. We have seen, time and time again, artists who may look good, but can't sing or play an instrument. Meanwhile, people with real talent, will not be able to realize their dreams because of the Corporate assholes who run MTV and think they know what good music is. And the record industry wonders why no one is buying music anymore?
I am sorry to hear that this MTV House Thing ruined, what could have been, a wonderful moviegoing experience. I am sooo glad that I did not attend anything like this upon my first viewing of TTT.
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Dec 03, 2002 12:12:37 PM CST
RE: I just posted a question to MTV's You Tell US board, to see
by diskjokk
Wungolioth:
I can't find the question you posted. Which one is it? Or did MTV refuse to post it?
If they did, fill us in. What was your question to the asswipes at MTV? -
Dec 03, 2002 12:13:03 PM CST
I think Thomas Edison needs a hug....whats the matter little bea
by retrace
lets turn that frown upside down.
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...and I remember thinking how annoying that camera crew must be for any audience member who actually cares about the movie. Rest assured that if I were approached by "MTV Movie House" to attend a screening for a film that I had never seen and that I actually cared about seeing, I would not participate, regardless of how tempting the specific screening might be. That first experience is just too important. The t-shirts sound cool, though. Maybe I would have gone in with the crowd, spent three hours in the restroom, and then picked up the t-shirt. It might be fun for crap movies, though. You could MST3K to your heart's content.
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Anyone know where any bootlegs are?
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Dec 03, 2002 12:36:55 PM CST
We "Whiney" Bitches OR... Fanboy Anger Towards Fanboy Anger
by jollydwarf
If it's an AICN talkback, especially a particularly rabid one, then you can be sure that someone is going to be the "voice of reason" and tell everyone to "shut the fuck up". I know, I know, no one wants to be part of the gaggle of geeks freaking out, clutching their Beanie Ewoks in one hand, feverishly typing with the other. But you can't tell me that deep down, we're all on the same page when it comes to the Mordors and Orthancs of the Real World (not the show!). Like MTV. And Bill Gates. It's just that for whatever reason, some people feel the need to criticize the critics rather than acknowledging the real issues. Sure, work 'em up s'more. And sadly, no, MTV is not dying or dead. If anything, it's gaining more and more power. Witness the Osbournes. Witness Carson Daly with his own late-night NBC show. Witness Justin Timberlake being treated like Michael Jackson, circa '83 and "Thriller". Witness the debacle known as "J-Lo". We may be the Morlocks in our "parent's basements" and on our "fanboy sites", too jaded and (maybe) too socially ostracized to enjoy the collective lobotomization going on around us, but neverthless, it is going on. And speaking of 'collectives', who knew that the real Borg more closely resembled Jeri Ryan on "Boston Public" than on "Voyager"? Not that that's ENTIRELY bad....
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If MTV had given me free tickets, I would gladly spend an hour after the movie doing whatever shoots and goofy crap they wanted me to do, but to interrupt people at the climax of a movie seems pretty obnoxious. I think I'd rather wait a few weeks and pay for it than have to endure that.
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How is the screening? "It's the worst I've ever attended, I'd like to thank MTV and MOVIE HOUSE for that!" "Can we ask you a few questions?" "No, F*CK OFF!" Anyway, Gollum in shorts is 'cool', huh? I think Arwen was left out of TTT because she wasn't a part of TTT's story, I don't think it leaves us with any questions! The hobbits are the heroes of LOTR, Aragorn is ultimately just the one who is given all the credit. Since a lot of the scenes are far-off and distant, the detail will likely look like a goat's ass on a non-widescreen brand new 27" tv, I'll have to pick up the full-screen extended version... (hopefully it's cheap this time!)
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Dec 03, 2002 1:25:46 PM CST
Way to go ,Thom Edison, standing up for the corporate hacks, and
by timbenzedrine
Would it have been so difficult to rent a ballroom adjacent to the theatre and staged an informal "cocktail party" AFTER the the screening? They could hae edited clips from the movie to coincide with people's comments. Was it necessary to ruin everyones viewing experience just to get a few "on the spot" reactions( which they obviously didn't didn't care about anyway, hense the staged cheering ahead of time) No, that would have been too difficult, the walking mannequins that host the show would have had to come up with real questions to ask the audience members instead of shoving a mic in someones face and asking "how do like show?"(Besides creating a better experience for everyone all around,They could have saved money on the filmcrew by having them only work 2 hours instead of 4+ hours.) I remember when MTV first started, when music videos looked like they could e the new experimental cinema, they had a few off the wall shows that took chances, now the network only exists to sell tampons and zit cream.
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they would think it was great if someone sent them a copy of these posts, a bunch more people talking about them endlessly...Great! we aren't their target audience for this show anyhow, so we really don't matter. they aim at the 12-18 set that might not even know this is based on books. and I must agree that these reviewers should have anticipated this if they took these tickets. not to say that I disagree about MTV being the Great Satan in this country, but you had to already know that going in to the theater! and all of you that say you would've assulted the camera man are full of $hit. you geeks hardly ever see a real boob without a cover charge, none of you are hitting anyone. besides, MTV would just kick your lame a$$ out of the screening.
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O.K. I left out a few verbs and pronouns on that last post,but I'm sure most of you will be able to decipher it. Sorry-TimB
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Dec 03, 2002 1:47:13 PM CST
Bloody Hell. And I thought Saved by the Bell: the next class was
by smoking squirrel
Talk about the worst idea in the world for a tv programme!! Maybe they were tricked and actually it a prank. It just sounds too stupid to be a real show. (By the way, i live in england and don't receive MTV)They should have shuved the camera up they're arse.
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Dec 03, 2002 1:49:07 PM CST
Bloody Hell. And I thought Saved by the Bell: the next class was
by smoking squirrel
Talk about the worst idea in the world for a tv programme!! Maybe they were tricked and actually it a prank. It just sounds too stupid to be a real show. (By the way, i live in england and don't receive MTV)They should have shuved the camera up they're arse.
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Dec 03, 2002 1:49:53 PM CST
Bloody Hell. And I thought Saved by the Bell: the next class was
by smoking squirrel
Talk about the worst idea in the world for a tv programme!! Maybe they were tricked and actually it a prank. It just sounds too stupid to be a real show. (By the way, i live in england and don't receive MTV)They should have shuved the camera up they're arse.
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Dec 03, 2002 1:50:01 PM CST
Bloody Hell. And I thought Saved by the Bell: the next class was
by smoking squirrel
Talk about the worst idea in the world for a tv programme!! Maybe they were tricked and actually it a prank. It just sounds too stupid to be a real show. (By the way, i live in england and don't receive MTV)They should have shuved the camera up they're arse.
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A shame MTV had to ruin so many moviegoer experiences - but just the same this is (as Moriarty implied) a tribute to how good this film must be: that the putrid taste left in so many mouths did not mask the savory taste of Jackson's latest morsel. Ultimately I am minded to agree with the guy who urged that Moriarty's review is the one most of us are really waiting for, though I can't help but note that Big M nearly ruined FOTR for me and a few others given that he built our hopes up for the cinematic equivalent (no, probably the real thing) of the Rapture, when what we ended up seeing was merely one of the finest films we'd ever seen. But I'll forgive him this time.
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As soon as I saw Sting doing promos declaring 'I Want My MTV' I knew this 'channel' was surely the hellspawn of Satan, sprung fully formed from Sting's rectum to spread it's Treacle and Fecal matter all over God's green earth. Surely it is not too late for us to take up arms in the struggle against all that Sting and his minions have unleashed upon us. I recommend we begin by firebombing the TRL studio and parading Carson's severed head on a pike up and down the streets of middle America in an attempt to awaken our fellow-citizens from their terror-war, bad-pop-music, McDonald's french-fry induced slumber. Oh, sorry, wrong message board.
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Your rancid hatred of Sting is pure comedy, my man.
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Dec 03, 2002 2:42:32 PM CST
Helm's Square OR... "Carson" is ALMOST an Anagram for "Sauron"
by jollydwarf
Especially if you turn the "C" on its side. Wouldn't it be funny to have us fanboys (of all shapes, sizes, ages, states of employmeny, etc) storm a TRL taping and attack the screamie-meemies outside MTV? Could someone rent a white horse? I'm kidding. Funny image in my head, but kidding. Kinda.
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I think it's cool that MTV wants reactions from audience members about a film. But first, I don't think it warrants a TV show, and second, you talk to me during a movie like that and you're gonna be told flat out to shut up, camera or no. To some of us, movies are pretty holy things, and it's just not cool to interrupt like that. I mean, I try not to fart in church. They shouldn't take a dump in mine. But audience reaction afterwards, hey, knock yourself out. And for God's sake, don't shine such a bright light that you can't even see the screen! That's just wrong. Other than that, you can film all you want, and ask me as many questions as you want AFTER the movie. Just be fucking respectful. I don't care if it is your screening, that's not being very fair to the FILMMAKERS.
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OH MY GOD...I truly didnt think I would get this excited over a film ever again!! FOTR pretty much crept up on me and took me by surprise. I mean I knew it was gonna be good but not THAT good!! Now with TTT I've had to endure a long punishing year desperate for this film to arrive and now with only 15 days to go.....the wait it almost over!!! These initial reviews all seem to good to be true and not knowing whats gonna happen is the real bonus for me!!
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Oh and for the record, if anyone, and I mean ANYONE, DARED to interrupt ME when watching TTT, I'd tear off those fucker's heads and piss down their throat-holes!!!
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Dec 03, 2002 3:05:12 PM CST
As said by a better rock band than anything MTV ever plays: Pret
by nordling
...pretty vacant.
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Dec 03, 2002 3:16:14 PM CST
Ah, The Safe Anonymity of the Internet OR... The Colombian Summe
by jollydwarf
All of us cynical music lovers can stop wasting time being clever and bashing the music scene today. The Colombian wonderfully summed it up in like, 100 words. And T. Edison. Who is this guy? He acts like he's NOT "one of us". Is that you, Ben? Freddie? Leo? Carson? Jimmy Fallon? Yeah, go ahead and condone MTV's ever-augmenting emphasis on physical perfection (which goes beyond simple lookism). I can't wait to see that Dr. Phil where the eight-year old girl cries for holding "oral sex parties" with her fellow third graders before Mom 'n' Pop got home. That's what, next year? This summer? Next week?
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Dec 03, 2002 3:17:31 PM CST
Fuck Bowling for Columbine, and anyone that lists it as a favori
by bannthisucommies
Okay fuck MTV too. Whats with these quarter-wits listing a bunch of movies to show their taste and then orgasm over a movie that is the complete opposite of everything on their list. Face it the fat dripping anal sack that is Mike Moore couldn't think to fill the giant ocean of talent that is Peter Jackson with his thimble full of bile. "Ahhh dude I liked Terminator and Weekend at Bernie's and now on to my review of Pulp Fiction....." And if you see that Facist Moore spit on him once for me!!
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"Freaky-deaky little white mutha fukkas with hairy feet." Good stuff, good stuff.
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this might be the best. talkback. ever. nice animation harry.
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I've seen that MTV bullshit, did they have you go to the board and express your feelings about the movie through magnetic slang labels? Leave it to those assholes to capitalize off something so wonderful and awe inspiring by packing a bunch of people into a movie theater, most of them in faded jeans and Abercrombie(cringe), and ask them their inane thoughts during what I assume is one of the best battle sequences ever. Only Ian Robinson knows whats up at MTV, all those other VJ's are puppets.
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It's good to see another good old punk reference lying around here. And Thomas Edison - you need to relax, man. Criticizing, nay, insulting people because they had their movie experience constantly interrupted by obnoxious cameramen? Where is your head? Oh, that's right. Look down. Little farther down... and turn around. There it is.
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Dec 03, 2002 4:15:13 PM CST
Maybe annoying the audience was the whole intention of MTV's Mov
by cooldan989
After all, if these reviews are any indication, hell hath no fury like a Lord of the Rings fan scorned. But since MTV always looking for new entertainment to appeal to the teenagers, maybe they'll enjoy watching Lord of the Rings fans flip out on television just like in this AICN story and say "God, what a bunch of dorks!". I personally think this is a bad idea if it's true, and very very scornful of faithful moviegoers, but hey, if teenagers can like Jackass, they can sure as hell like watching movie fans have a fit. And who knows, maybe one day there will be a movie so awful the audience will be thanking the host and cameraman.
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that someone puts a gun to my head before I EVER use the plotline of "Legally Blonde" to make a point. MTV is very lucky to have veiwers like you.
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Well, one of them anyway. 1) Your comment on MTV's being entitled to do what tehy want. OK, sure, I guess that's right. But, if you want to gauge audience opinion of a film, is it not smarter to ask your questions AFTER the movie is over, instead of during it? And how do you know the reviewers knew all this was going to happen? And your second, and far sillier, flawed argument, is your ridiculous theory on geeks and pretty people. The basic flaw is your assumption that Nordling, and the rest of us on this site, for that matter, are ugly, and therefore envy the "pretty people". Why do you think that has anything to do with it. And how can you judge such a large group of people that you don't even know? And don't you realize that you ARE one of those people, you jackass? You've consistently prejudged people with nothing but your ridiculous assumptions, yet yell at the rest of us for criticizing MTV of all things? And the final problem I have is that you appear to be something of a moron.
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Dec 03, 2002 4:26:01 PM CST
*geek slober gets all over interviewer as he tries to do his job
by tall_boy
hahahhaha. sounds funny. stupid idea for a show. Funny that people got screwed. serves 'em right to go to something MTV sponsored
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You see, Georg-, er, sorry, Thomas keeps coming here, and Melie-, sorry, Edison's argument about the "pretty people" seems pretty funny tom me since he's still reading these Talkbacks. I mean, we're all geeks, right, Meli-, sorry, Edison?
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When geeks start calling each other ugly, it's a sad day in AICNville. Oh so what if we have a little extra acne, a few extra pounds or a few extra ribs sticking out. Haven't I told you enough times that all true geeks have a magical sparkle to them which the mundanes/muggles just don't have? Maybe it's not something you can catch with a camera or a tape recorder, but it's there all the same. I invite ChickenMonkey to step in and show you how to sparkle pretty, and be the most beautiful freaky geek you can be.
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The only thing that was any good on MTV was Beavis and Butthead. Everything else is crap.
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...I think about mtv. I dream that someday they will get their heads out of their asses. I remember when mtv's staff consisted of nothing more than drunken frat boys who cared for nothing else but kickass music (notice how i only mentioned MUSIC and not any other medium of entertainment). This transfered to what the audience saw on the television screen. It was a little unprofessional, but it was fucking brilliant. Take a trip to the 80's mtv. Recreate a time when you were all about music. LONG LIVE MTV2!
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Okay, MTV sucks & MTV2 is cool. (I do enjoy the Osbournes, regardless of all the hype.) But this show is horrible. What genius thought it was a good idea to blind everyone with a hot light? How obnoxious.... And for the TBers who think the new Star Wars movies are better than this are either overly sentimental, or have a really dry sense of sarcasm. I'll give GL props for his ACTION scenes. They are impeccably shot, edited, and composited. Some of the best ever. But for me, that's where the appeal ends. The whole movie suffers if everything else is glossed over. PJ is one of my favorite directors because he's great with action AND he can effortlessly juggle plot, character, tone, pacing, and get great performances from his actors.
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But that kind of creativity scares people. Pander to the lowest common denominator and you'll never go broke.
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So you guys get to see TT way before us normal mortals, and you have the gall to COMPLAIN???
If the actual reviews here are at all accurate, I'd probably be willing to sit next to Carson Dailey as he does a running commentary on Hobbit fashion and their impact on pop music if it meant I got to go to a FREE, EARLY screening.
Geeeeesh. Some people have no class... -
The killed it when they added voices.
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Suits...suck.
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Seriously, that is just too funny. MTV rocks!!!!!!!!!
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You're an a$$ and you know it to, don't you?
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No, sorry. I got nothing. It is time to calm down, though. I'm sure when we all go see the movie, the camera crew will not be there.
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Whoever wrote that review dissin MTV made him( or her)self look bad because they are dissin a show they probaly dont even watch on a normal basis. Anyone who watches the show knows that whole premise behind Movie House is to get movie fans input on movies before they even come out. If they did not want to be inturuppted then why did they go in the first place!!!!!!Think people, before you criticize!!!!
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Did anyone think to say "FUCK OFF" to these MTV vermin. Also... just to send shivers down your spine. Can you imagine if you were watching "The Empire Strikes Back" for the fist time and some annoying fool shoved a camera with a huge LIGHT in your face just as Darth said "I Am Your Father". I wish I hadn't thought of that now it's made me quite sad.
I feel sorry for all concerned. -
This whole fiasco was done to fuck with fanboys. Note the producer derogatory remark about "starting the film". They wanted to rile them up and rain on their parade. Face it...they spooged you guys. Time for payback me thinks.
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when I see TWO TOWERS opening day there certainly won't be any cameras in my face.
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I was at the screening last night (I know the reviewer Poop Mobile actually, a friend of mine.) And goddamn, FUCK MTV! They are putting on a show about movies, but had no respect for what a movie IS. It was completley obnoxious, I had a light in my face as the Battle of Helm's Deep was just starting. The movie was just as amazing as the first one, but good god, if you are doing a show about film, respect the filmgoing experience. I was jazzed to see the film early and for free, but I probably would not have gone had I known what I was in for. Anyway, great movie, but you all knew it would be anyway.
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A couple of points. 1) It's not too surprising that MTV disrespects "The Two Towers" or its fans. It goes without saying that they've never read the book; it's likely that very few people who work at MTV are able to read (I'm not kidding). 2) To put a tombstone on the "pretty vs. ugly" argument: pardon me if I sound too Nietzsche-esque, but attractiveness equals weakness. Intellect arises from study, and character arises from dealing with life's adversities. Attractive, popular children do not need to learn anything because they are simply handed good grades so as not to piss off their attractive, popular parents. The only way one could fail to notice this is if one were home-schooled, and the same rule applies there since it's known that parents favor their pretty children over plain-looking siblings. By the same token, good-looking adults who get a Free Pass through so many of life's trials & tribulations develop personalities that are, at best, shallow and at worst, seriously defective... even psychopathic. This isn't jealousy; it's an observation of fact. End of discussion.
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Soon will be video of Orc-dancers by new group Snaga-kaka on MTV! Snaga-ape laugh a lot when he look at surface-monkeys on their internet. They fight and squall like sub-snaga in fight over spilled crevice slug mash. Oh, we don
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'nuff said...
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Just reading about these MTV assholes got me pissed off. Reminds me when I went to Star Wars ep 2, and sat next to 12 year old kid who brought a boomerang,(a fucking boomerang!), and pretended to jack off with it for over 2 hours. He even had the balls to tell everyone to shut-up when they were all cheering for YODA. I hate Fucking 12 yearolds and I hate MTV. Fuck you MTV....and Fuck you kid who sat next to me in the movie.
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Will somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in where a camera and bright light gets shoved in your face while you're trying to enjoy a movie? Regardless of whether those people knew what they were in for, it shouldn't have taken place because of simple logic... if someone wanted your opinion of a meal, would they ask you BEFORE you've finished the entire meal? Sure you can comment on individual items, but until you're finished, it's not a valid opinion. And people are actually dumb enough to critize us naysayers?
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WOW! THat was soo nice of MTV! To let people see TTT and stuff, I cant believe how dedicated they are to the fanbase! I mean, wow, like, wow! And for free?
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ok STUPID MUTHAFOKKAZ will pay dearly for destroying everything that movie was to those poor souls who got roped into that. MY GOD, dearest GOD why would they do that? What does it prove? ARE they that retarded? (YES) appearently so. (that last post was BS in case you didnt get it...) I live here in NYC and see MTV doing stupid shit all the time. They are self-absorbed assholes with no regard for humanity. How could they do that? ???? ? I mean, my GOD?????? That goes against some laws of physics, does it not?
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yep...they should've kick em in the balls or something...how can someone stand this shit?..or even have the patience? this is simply unfucking believable.
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Look, i fuckin' hate MTV as much as anyone but it's not like these guys were forced at gunpoint into the theater...when the movie is released go to the midnight screening, with Gandalf and Frodo and the rest of the Cloaked ones and quit your bitching.
Beef lo-mein rules, by the way. -
Sure, it's intense music, but what's up with Clint Mansell's Requiem For A Dream theme in the new TV ad? Is this going to be the next Goonies/Aliens "used for every ad" music?
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Dec 03, 2002 9:38:10 PM CST
Yo, MTV sucks! Remember when they used to play videos? MTV jumpe
by truthseekr1488
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Um, I'm the first to curse evil corporations, but if one goes to a free movie preview, especially hosted by MTV, expect the worst. ** If they bugged you, walk out! It was free, what do you lose? And a walk out shows what you think of them. ** I don't get why they bloody sat there if it was so horrible.
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They have no idea of what the fuck they are talking about.
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Why did the organizers of this event have someone conduct an interview during the movie's climax? I have no idea. I suppose someone figured that a lot of people that would not normally see this movie would pay to see it again, because someone kept talking during the free preview. *** "Ya know, I got to see 'The Two Towers' for free courtesy of MTV." "How was it?" "I dunno, someone was conducting interviews during the film to see how we liked it - with a bright spotlight and everything." "Oh man, that sucks." "Yeah, guess I will have to go see it again - so I can hear everything and figure out what happened."
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.......if we could throw MTV into the Cracks of Doom. That would be a helluva movie too.
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I was at the screening last night, and sent in my thoughts on the film, and the experience...To answer the question why didn't we do something? well, people were saying, turn it off...in fact when they turned the camera lights off (as they did a few times) we clapped and shouted "good, keep it off"...I wasn't about to walk out of the theater because i kept hoping they would get the shots they needed and get the hell out...they did 25 minutes later. I tried to see as much as I could of the Battle through what they were doing, and let me tell you, you would have done the exact same thing...theres no way I was going to walk out, especially since after they left there was only about 10 minutes of film left. I needed to have some sense of closure with the film, if that makes any sense....Also, why did I go knowing that MTV was doing a show....PLEASE any one of you would have gone to see it early and you know it...I willingly and gladly put up with all the extra crap they made us do. I could tolorate them walking around a little along the aisles to get nightcam shots of us watching the film, I would have even been willing to be interviewed before and after the screening...but when a big Fu@$#%ing light and camera come in and start filming for 25 minutes DURING the film....not only that but they waited until THE CLIMAX of the film....There were many parts they could have walked in and filmed and I would have been slightly less pissed....it just showed they had no understanding of the film, or how to shoot and organize a TV show. I'm not even a big Lord of the Rings "geek", I'm just your average film lover....at that point the experience was ruined anyway so I tried to make the best of it and see what I could of the remainder of the film...Sure, I admit, I was greedy...but again I say if you were offered an invitation to see The Two Towers without really knowing what you were getting yourself into, I'm sure you would go.....
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Anyone would have done the same thing. You had no idea some asshole with a floodlight was gonna walk around the last 25 minutes of the movie. And you stuck it out thinking the intrusion would have a lasted only a minute or two. So much for Marketing TeleVision.
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Dec 03, 2002 10:42:21 PM CST
When MTV Cancelled 120 Minutes was the last time I watched that
by tallscott
I guess at the end of the day the suits of mtv will look at thier bank accounts, masturebate, then sleep with the sweet sweet thought that they helped kill american music.. Nothing agianst pretty people but when your good looking it does not mean that you insantly have talent..
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Well, it certainly does suck that their movie was interupted. Perhaps if they read the fucking fine print or paid attention to the directions, this would not have been a surprise. But knowing MTV, they probably didn't mention it. Either way, Shut the Fuck Up, at least you didn't have to pay to see it.
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All you MTV sneak complainers: nobody forced you to see TTT or any other movie in this way; perhaps you should have learned what their shtick was before you went to the screening, and if it was me, I would have simply walked out of the theater as soon as I saw a single reporter. If the movie meant that much to all of you, you should have left and waited to see it properly on opening day with the rest of us. So quitcher bitchin'
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SPOILER ** Apparently Lucas is in the planning stages of making this film suck more ass than the last two combined. ** END SPOILER
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So the argument goes - you're a moron if you watch MTV. And you're a moron if you did'nt know MTV pulls this kind of crap, so you deserve it. Which means you don't watch MTV. You're a moron if you watch... No. You're a moron if you don't... No wait... Norman coordinate!
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Fucking MTV sucks! I'm with y'all on this outrage! Enjoyable and intelligence-simulating moviegoing experience is crucial to final opinion whether the movie is awesome, mediocre or pure shit. I'd get medieval on MTV crew's ass if they burst in during Scorsese's grand epic Gangs of New York or Terrence Malick's next yet-to-be-produced masterpiece adaption Catcher in the Rye! Can't believe these jackasses have the audacity to fuck with the audiences' enjoyment in the dark and ruin the worldly experience of The Two Towers because of their hyperactive, ignorant, materialistic and greedy ratings-grabbing egotism. At least I don't have MTV on cable anymore - too bad I'm missing out on the 2nd season of The Osbournes. MTV was great in the 80's then went downhill in the early 90's with talkshow and reality bullshit overwhelming music videos. The dawn of the 21st century is the mid-stage for the MTV generation and it's gonna get worse in terms of ego and inferior quality inundated with Michael Bay/McG-esque rapidfire and boom editing reducing the youth demographic's attention span to reject anything that don't look and sound fast and cool thereby reducing the overall quality of Hollywood movies. Nowadays Hollywood movies are shit action and schlock comedy movies starring SNL has-been and aging stars. At least the only good MTV movie I've seen is Election and that's another great political satire from the demented duo of Payne/Taylor (until they sold their souls for fat paychecks to write the script for Universal's dinoshit flick Jurassic Park 3). FUCK MTV
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Quote after Quote echoes reviews we heard from the faithful after initially seeing Episode I. The movie is amazing; I have to see it again to get the scope. Once the next one is done...The CGI is good, not great...It's amazing but well...wah
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Dec 04, 2002 12:49:34 AM CST
Holy shit dude, you're right. This IS eerily similar to the Epis
by peterpotamus
Except for the fact that all the critics and fans hated Episode I, and all the critics and fans love The Two Towers.
Fucking idiot. Learn to read, and stop listening to the voices in your head. That's the only place you're hearing "Episode I excuses." -
Ahh, capitolisum. . .
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well, after reading everyone's reviews about MTV'S moviehouse i'm not sorry i was kicked out of the line. apparently i don't look young enough anymore :(
ok so i'm not 24 but who could blame me right? i wanted to see the movie ahead of time!
but in the end, i'm glad i didn't. i just went through 5 mins. of embarrassment and not hours of torture.
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we give you a gun and one bullet? You know what to do.
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Kicked out of line? Thats funny, man. No offense, I'm not trying to make fun of you, because aren't we all big nerds, but would you say it was because you single handedly filled their nerd quotient or are you "really old" for MTV, as in 30 or so? How did they get you to leave? What did they say? I would have pitched a fit, faked a seizure, or threatened to call the ACLU, or just yelled out "Attica! Attica!" or something ridiculous like that until they let me go in. ** I'd have bombed them with my soda if they had entered with a bright light while the movie was on. That would have been some good tape.
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dumbass
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Take the gun and the bullet, and pop a cap in you ass.
Bye Bye. -
good stuff. They had a new clip too: Sam tries to comvince Frodo to put the ring on and escape (from Faramirs custody I'm assuming - theyre sitting in a small room with some barrels) The best part of the interview was Viggo's opinions on the applicability of Two Towers to current foreign politics. I have more respect for Viggo everyday. He really is a very interesting person.
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"Music Television... should be covered in jizzum!"
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I haven't really watched MTV on a regular basis since Martha Quinn was there, boy, now I'm feeling old. I bet the girl asking questions was really pretty, that's probably why none of these guys protested. It is their show, but they really should tell people what to expect.
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Dec 04, 2002 4:52:59 AM CST
I tell you this, because as an artist I think you'll understand.
by billy talent
Oh it's silly of me to wish for any sort of a hegemony or detente, but i'm going to throw my hat into the ring. First off, I'm going to guess that most of us have seen the Star Wars movies, The Fellowship of the Ring, and numerous other movies. We've made up our own minds how we feel about these films. We don't need a bunch of loud mouthed shit for brains telling us what we do or don't like. Which brings me, ironically enough, to my next point. I quite admire aspects of Fellowship, and it certainly looks and feels like a hell of a lot of work, but ultimately its flaws are too glaring for me to ignore. My expectations of Two Towers are considerably lower than they were for Fellowship. I don't want to take away from anyone else's enjoyment of these films, but you people can get downright fascistic. There's this insistence that these are the greatest movies ever made, and that they are everyone's favorites, and it just ain't so. I won't say that they're better or worse than any other films, they're just completely different. Where would you begin trying to qualitatively compare Fellowship of the Ring to The Exterminating Angel? Tolkien's work (with which Jackson's must not be confused) may well be some of the greatest literature of the last century, but it's not the only great literature, and it's grotesque to paint his non fanatics as some type of phillistines. Anyways, I'm just sayin', and I'm tired of writin', and I'm only sayin' it to some of youse. What was I saying?
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I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Of course I'm jealous that I didn't get to see the movie, but I don't fault anyone for that. Why wouldn't I care about their movie going experience? I certainly don't care about their reviews. I don't care about anyone's reviews on this site (except for Herc's). I thought this site was ABOUT the movie going experience, because it sure as shit isn't about the reviews. But like I said, I'm not sure what you're talking about, if you're referring to my questions to the guy that was kicked out of line, then yes I am interested in his story, as well. It sounds like a humorous anecdote. What level of humanity are you talking about? "If it was a showing of K-PAX instead of THE TWO TOWERS." Well thank you sir Isaac Fucking Newton. No shit, pal. You want to know why? Because this is a geek site. K-PAX doesn't make the news because it
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As much as I enjoy seeing films - especially free screenings - I have to shout out and remind all of you that were in the same movie house screening as me last night that we were totally informed about what we were getting in to. Trust me I would rather not have the host and camera guy in my face, but before we even got in to the place while we were in line a guy producer came around and told us what to expect - and almost the exact time we would get out. I saw the tv show once before and kinda knew what was going to happen - but the camera in the face stuff was far from a surprise for any of us. So stop the whinin' people - if you are freaking about what mtv totally explained would happen - don't show up next time - just be happy you got a free movie and the chance to see TTT weeks before its released. TTT was awesome and I'm trippin so much that I got to see it weeks before anyone else. Very cool mtv.
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i don
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I don't know if you've already read this, but in my opinion this is a very nice review:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101021202/story.html
/freddie -
...*slaps myself in forehead* Sorry if I got your hopes up..
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Dec 04, 2002 7:13:47 AM CST
I would expect eMpTV to pull this crap at a showing one of their
by red raider
...but to do this at a showing of THE TWO TOWERS is unforgivable! Fuck that corporate bloated, so called music television station! I wonder if Carson Daly ever read the Lord of the Rings? If wonder if Carson Daly can even read? Do those corporate wankers at MTV, who greenlight the atypical movie premiere, camera-in-your-face-while-watching-the-film bullshit, even realize that Peter Jackson has spent the last 4 years of his life, busting his ass to make these films, out of his pure love for the books? In other words, movies like TTT are not made for lame-ass publicity stunts like this. MTV needs to seriously circle the drain and then descend down the pipe. And good fucking riddance when they do...
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a very bad paranoid experience....
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I stopped watching MTV over 10 years ago when they stopped playing actual music. I mean what's the point of calling yourself "Music" Television when there's no music involved? MTV has been the American Idol network for the past decade or so. They're in the business of manufacturing pop culture. They don't care about art, nor have they for a long time now. So why should we expect anything different with "MTV Movie House"?
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That is a fair argument about MTV giving out free passes, then they should be able to do whatever they want. But I do not think people should automatically know what they're in for. Know what to expect... And then to just take it without the least bit of a complaint. If MTV was going to pull all this crap at the movie, then there should be a warning. They should warn the audience before the start of the film that their film crew will randomly interupt the showing with their camera and crew for audience interaction and reaction. They should warn people prior to the film and give the option to leave if they want the full experience of the film. They should be mindful and respectful enough to tell you these things no matter how generous they or anybody else thinks they're being. I find it a silly notion that people should no what they're in for. Not everybody is familiar with MTV or "MTV Movie House." It's easy to considerate, MTV or no.
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Go for the Mtv return of the king screening and then someone please bash that camera!
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Those MTV losers will burn in hell for messing with TTT! DIE YOU BASTARDS!!!
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Dec 04, 2002 10:00:13 AM CST
MTV SUCKS!! IT S0 D0ES! ITS LIKE ... THE DEV1L! LOLOLOLOLORZ!
by shad0wfax
YEAH! IT DOES TOO! TALKING DURING MOVIES! HOLY SHIT YEAH! KILL THEM ALL!
OMG!
THEY ARE BETRAYING ME BEAUTIFIUL BOOKFILMTYPE CONVERSION! AH SAVE ME!
LOLOLOLORRZ!
Most of you guys are all sad fucks.
Let's be honest here. Especially those who are dissing in the vain hope that it will make LOTR any better than the films that they are.
FOTR was a good movie. Period. No work of majesty. No piece of art. It was, in terms of movie enjoyment (and what it was proposed itself to be), quite slow.
The acting was pretty decent, although doleful eyes for Frodo isn't exactly enough and dialogue like "Lets Hunt Some Orc" and "YOU WILL BE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING" kinda gave it a Jerry Bruckheimer feel.
I feel the same will happen with this movie. It will be good. Have some tremendous set pieces, stupid monsters like those warg riders.
You guys remind me of the people who felt that the Jack Black rip-off of The Council of Elrond scene defiled the entire extended DVD edition. What retards. It was a deliberate move by Jackson to include in the vain hope that his fanboys weren't sadder than Lucas's were...unfortunately, this is not the case. -
Stopped watching regularly when Ray Cokes went off the air (I'm in Europe, so no need for the US TBers to go "Who?"). Nowadays it's pretty much "The Osbournes" and the occasional award show and then off. But man, what are they smoking over there?!? And to the guys saying "you should've expected that", 1) not everyone watches MTV or that particular show, 2) even if they did, seeing the normal, MTV-type, fast-clips-everywhere show they are entitled to think that the crew would ask questions for a heck of a lot less than 25 goddamn minutes, 3) you'd expect the crew to ask questions during slow points in the movie or during the credits, not during the CLIMAX of the damn movie! I mean, they didn't even show the credits, just cut the film when it faded to black. They could've just showed the credits and asked questions with the music in the background. 4) You'd expect the crew to shoot using a night vision camera, not to flash a huge bright light into your eyes, casting big shadows on the screen and causing flare that makes the screen invisible! ***Sheesh, MTV! If you had any sense at all, you'd use your head when it comes to the timing of the interviews and the kind of equipment you use! Oh wait... MTV, using your head... the oxymoron is painfully obvious. ***Oh, and Thomas Edison, no, all supermodel-looking people are not dumb, but you gotta admit that most of the attractive people on MTV and stuff are fucking airheads. You can be smart and stunning, but MTV ain't looking for that combo. "Pretty vacant" is sadly true in this case. **And as for being "discriminated against by the ugly elite"?! What are you smoking there, little buddy?
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http://www.thewb.com/Index/0,7349,,00.html
8 PM Eastern Time, 7 PM Central time
AOLTimeWarner(NewLine) is so damned incestuous, here's Smallville's Lex Luthor doing a special on The Two Towers. Why couldn't they have had someone from Angel do this? Oh yeah, the WB wants to kill Angel so they can replace it with a second hour of Charmed. Er sorry, I'm going off topic, but all three Joss Whedon shows are in reruns or hiatus right now and I'm feeling rather deprived of Coaxial TBs. -
If MTV gave TTT a brilliant review, you lot would be on here saying how good MTV's opinion of a film is. Sorry, but I am laughing at all of you in that theatre and good on MTV for doing this. I cant wait to see this episode, it will be one of the funniest things ever seen. The looks on the fans faces when asked questions during helms deep will be worthy of the greatest scene ever on tv this year. YOU GOT IN FREE AND SEEN IT EARLY, quit your bitching. Most fans wouldnt care about MTV interviewing people, its a free visit to see the movie they have waited for all this time. MTV has gone up in my opinion after this, get this episode on the small screen now. You got to see the film, so why bitch? Shadowfox is correct, youre a bunch of Saddo's. Its not like you aint going to watch this film about 10 times anyway is it? Moaning over nothing, its not worth the time. Did you expect anything else from MTV? They have moronic presenters who are fake as fuck and their programmes are fake as fuck too. Its television, it screws you. Now get used to that fact. BRING ON MTV MOVIEHOUSE, IT SOUNDS GREAT!!!!
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At least the end result would be funny, if they'd brought Triumph in with the camera crew. http://www.ifilm.com/ifilm/product/film_info/0,3699,2456970,00.html
"May the force be with you - for me to poop on." -
I don't normally post about other reviewers...but his review is eloquent. Other than Mori's his was the one I was waiting for. "The Two Towers proves that the Lord of the Rings series will probably stand as the greatest fantasy film trilogy of all time. It
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Dec 04, 2002 12:04:27 PM CST
Knowing What You're Getting OR... Is That a Pageant Title?
by jollydwarf
Miss Aura? Is that title only applicable through the remainder of '02? Did you lose out on Miss Grammar? Anyways, I'm willing to bet that very few people who agreed to go to this viewing knew that it was going to be what it was. Hence the bile and disgust. It was an ambush, which is a tactic that reality TV thrives on. If you're angry at MTV for this, you have a right to be. Hell, if it took you this to hate them...what took you so long? If you look at revised edition of Dante's "Inferno" from the Divine Comedy, you'll see maps of Hell where MTV is right underneath Satan's ass in the ninth circle of the Pit. I heard that they were going to let Bill Gates personally hand out XBOXes on the air during a TRL this month, but he wouldn't agree to the mosaic distortion over his face. I heard that they're already lining up one of those tribute shows for Avril Lavigne next year. And now, bands and artists that we would've never heard of if today's MTV were around back then...Aerosmith, DEVO, The Cars, the Rolling Stones, Radiohead, Elvis Costello, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan...can you think of more? Plus: Would Jim Morrison have been turned from a drunken, leather pants-wearing "poet" into a cleancut, tight sweater-wearing "cutie-pie songwriter"? Discuss.
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Dec 04, 2002 12:28:57 PM CST
Give a thing and take it back and God will punish you for that
by toshlines
I'm hoping so anyway. Maybe that new tenth circle of hell will come in handy. Miss Aura - These reviwers have every right to complain. Just becuase its free doesn't mean MTV had any right to interrupt, certainly without any prior warning. You expect MTV to be crass, simpering and hosted by morons but this by any reasonable yardstick this has been handled appallingly, with little or no thought given to the actual experience of the majority of people watching the damn thing in the first place. I'd be bloody livid - I have every sympathy for those people. Incidentally - I'm seeing it next Wednesday! Who wants to touch me? Eh? *Silence*
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Jollydwarf, these people were probably for weeks telling all their friends that they are seeing it early and shoving it in their faces. Even these friends must be laughing at them, its hilarious. As someone said above about Triumph the Insult Dog, this is the alternative. I am sorry, I wont be able to keep a straight face when its shown on MTV. I hope they were all dressed up in their LOTR gear too, it would make it even more brilliant. Pure brilliance MTV, pure brilliance. MTV MovieHouse TTT edition, the one to watch.********I do say this though, they should have given them another screening without the cameras straight after the showing but that would take the fun away. Anyone know when this is going to be aired?
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Viggo might have called George W. Bush "Saruman," as one poster here just mentioned, but writer Justin Raimondo called it much better in his review of FOTR last year titled "Sauron in Washington". Fans should read that review at: http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j122401.html . Raimondo makes some great points. Fact is, Bush is lying through his teeth and manipulating American people (so ignorant that more of them participate in votes for AMERICAN IDOL than they do their own democratic ELECTIONS) to get support for unprovoked wars in foreign lands, so he and his business partners (Dick Cheney, Condy Rice, Paul O'Neill -- come on down!!) can control the region and exploit it's resources. Oil = Power, you can't put it any simpler than that. That's why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor; that's why the Nazi's went after north Africa. Oil = Power. He who has the oil has the power. That's the Industrial Revolution for you. Oil = Machines = Energy = Power. If it was about democracy and human rights, America wouldn't be in bed with totalitarian regimes in Saudi Arabia and China. If it was about weapons of mass destruction, America would be provoking war with North Korea, not Iraqi weaklings. (Oops, no oil in North Korea. Scratch them from the "Axis of Oil", I mean "Evil"). Face it: It's all about the oil. Dubya's granddaddy Prescott Bush (who was a major finacier and profiteer with the Nazis) knew it. So did Dubya's daddy George Snr., who coddled Saddam and still slums with his Carlyle Group partners -- that's right, the Bin Laden family. And like the evil offspring and liar he is, Dubya knows it too. When will the rest of America wake up...?
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Er I was going to say, if you think the U.S.A. has never knowingly killed an innocent person, I've got some real estate in Florida to sell ya.
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Didn't someone stand up and shout "Turn the fucking light out, you dipshit, we're watching a fucking movie!"
I would have, and yes, gotten thrown out.
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Thank God for Viggo "Daylight" Mortensen's t-shirt. If it wasnt for that, I would have turned off the TV. A political debate was far more intersting than Jackson and his little friend Mr. Wood, gushing over what they did with TTT.
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Come on folks, Dubya may be in way over his head, but he's not evil. It sickens me that an empty suit like that is the President, but don't turn him into somekind of monster. I'm a liberal to moderate democrat, but I understand that when we are attacked, we have to fight back. I would be all for turning the other cheek, if it worked, but you have to show these assholes that if you kill our people, then the ones responsible will be tracked down and killed, it's the only thing these barbarians understand. The showdown with Iraq is another story, I think that is mostly for politics, they got the focus off the lousy economy before the elections, and now that the elections over, you'll notice Bush has backed off some. That being said, lets not cry any tears for Saddam Hussein, a man that gassed his own people. I think Viggo whateverhisnameis should stick to making movies rather than commenting on U.S. policy. But hey, this is America, and he has every right say whatever he wants. He should just remember that the military, that I'm sure he despises, is the reason he has that right.
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So Viggo wears a political t-shirt...like most Hollywood actors, he is probably misinformed, uneducated, and generally out of touch with what the rest of us recognize as reality. Maybe these actors see their heads projected on screen, and think their brains have grown in size to match...or that because they are famous, their opinions are somehow more signficant. So Bush is Saruman, and America fights war for oil. Guess what. The day Viggo stops driving a car, turns off all the heat and electricity in his house, and advocates a return to a rural agrigultural based society, his political statement is nothing more then the usual hypocracy that comes out of Hollywood actors.
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They give us the most inciteful political commentary...Bush=Sauron. Dick Chaney is Saruman. Wait, that would make Saddam Gandalf and Bin Laden is Aragorn! The ring is Oil. Mordor is America. Moslems are Hobbits. And Viggo is a vacuous left wing airhead who makes a rather mediocre Aragorn. Ever notice how Harry's site attracts America haters like dogshit attracts flies? Of course much of the vitriol is posted by Harry himself under various names. "Hatespeech" is "fodder for deletion" on this site. Unless you hate the same things the owner of the site does. Then its great!
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The WB will have a 1 hour special on TTT,chill the bier! :)
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Mori,were is your review brother?
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"Misinformed and uneducated" is a term that does not apply to a man who is clearly highly articulate, well-read and intelligent, whether you agree with him or not. Unfortunately, in the United States, we tend to be exposed only to one point of view. Try living abroad (not in an American compound) or even traveling abroad and listening to people, and you will hear other views, and I am not talking about third world countries (though theyhave a voice, too) but other Western democracies that do not see violence as a first resort. The problem is that we are NOT bombing Bin Ladin or Saddam Hussein; we are bombing the people who are just as much their victims (and ours) as the victims in the World Trade Center. Does it really "punish" terrorists to rain death on Iraqi or Afghani civilians? I think what Viggo was saying is that we are all too quick to think that only American deaths are important; the numbers of living, breathing human beings on the other side are only statistics, people who "deserve" death because of where they live. By that logic, Americans deserve death because one of us (Timothy McVey) bombed the Murrah Building. Any possible reading of Tolkien (if you care) would see how firmly he comes down on people who would rashly "deal out death in judgment." And Bush does not have to be an evil man (or the United States an evil country) for our policies to have evil consequences. It really IS about oil and power, or we would not have been hand-in-glove with some of the most corrupt regimes on earth in our fear of losing both.
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he'd put things right; he would.
just 14 more days and i'll get to go back to middle earth. -
...never dies.
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I'm one step ahead my friend. If they really did mean to annoy the audience, they shoulda sent the Jackass crew in.
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Jezus Christ! Of course this whole moviehouse thing sucks, but REALLY AKASoze, don't bitch that they ruined your experience!!!!! You got a FREE TICKET and you could have LEFT THE THEATRE ANY MOMENT YOU WANTED!!!!
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i HATE mtv and can not understand for the life of me why others like it.
its not like they play diverse music anymore (popity-pop-pop-pop), the VJs say "like, ya know" about fifty times in 30 secs, and the "musicians" they interivew are just as dull.
blah.
and is Nelly's new song about sneakers? what the hell?
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Daughter of time, by your rationale, we could never take action against any aggressor since they are all surrounded by "innocents". Defeating Nazi Germany involved the killing of millions of civilians on both sides. But, the only other alternative is surrender. And collaboration. Which is what many "enlightened" European countries in fact did. This moral relatism of the "enlightened" can only lead to one thing - the triumpth of facism world wide. The Islamofacists are counting on precisely that type of moral relativism to prevail in the west. They attack us, we do nothing because we are too afraid of hurting innocent people. But, through our lack of action, we are killing innocent people ON OUR SIDE. Pacifism never works against dictators and facists. A lack of response is always perceived as a weakness by those who's only ambition is personal power. Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden and all their ilk have justified their various aggressions by stating that America is "too weak", and afraid of the Vietnam syndrome. In other words, easy prey. Since the ultimate goal of the Islamists is to place the entire planet under Sharia, Islamic law, and convert all the infidels to Islam, its hard to see how a defensive war is to be avoided. If history has taught us anything at all, its that the appeasement of facists, nazis, communists, Islamists and all other forms of totalitarianism never works....or it works in their favor. Would you really feel morally superior if Hussein built nuclear weapons, gave them to terrorists and they blew up the city you live in? Action has consequences....but so does inaction.
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MTV2 is a good channel and pisses all over VH1. VH1 promotes child killers and other criminals, I could never watch a channel that gives airtime to them. Give me MTV2 anyday.*******Walrus, now that was good.
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Anyone who criticizes Bush, Republicans, or any official government action undertaken by Republicans should be smeared as an evil anti-American hippie and hauled off to Guantanamo immediately. Because only right-wingers know what is good and right and what constitutes a true American. Only right-wingers enter the military service, pay taxes, and are law-abiding citizens who never stray from their marital vows, take illegal drugs, shoplift, or become serial killers.
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Sorry gypsy, but Im in the marine Corp and Im a liberal(one of the very few), so I dont think your arguement holds up.
Plus I agree a lot with Viggo on this.
Viggo for president gets my vote!
Its better than anything else we have seen lately. -
TONY BLAIR, he seems to be the intelligent one out of the the both of them which isnt hard considering George Bush is an alcoholic.
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Dec 04, 2002 6:09:14 PM CST
I'm Ted Koppel, and THIS...is "Knightline" OR... Is Bono Tom Bom
by jollydwarf
Admirable how long this talkback has prospored. Impressive it is. See kids, a well-placed but pertinent tangent, here and there, is all it takes. TRL. Viggo. Modern symbolism. Jennifer Garner as Elektra. Oops...not that last one. But, ah, what the hell! Anyway, I think that it's better that actors don't go into the political forum and campaign so openly, either liberal or (in the extremely rare instance) conservative. You just alienate a good chunk of your audience. Have political views, don't get me wrong, but offer support behind the scenes ($$$). It's like when politicians host on SNL. It doesn't go too well. The fact that Bono is doing this over a protracted period of time is even more astounding when you consider he had to overcome the "entertainers don't know shit" stereotype. But he's the exception. And while themes from Tolkien are prevalent today (but hey, so are Rowling's and Lucas'), it's silly to equate certain characters with world leaders. I mean, I still see Beetlejuice (from Howard Stern) as 'fro-doo, and Howard himself as Gandork, but that's my little apolitical daydreaming. Dubya: Episode II is not a paragon of evil. He's far too incompetent to be that. And no one really likes him. The Devil will be much more charming than that. All in all, I'm sure Viggo means well, as he's always very thoughtful, but wisdom and knowledge are two different things, as they say. There are far too many factors and shades or grey for someone who doesn't LIVE in the realm of international politics to truly consider. But for the impossibly jaded, I'll just quote a show from yesteryear: "Trust No One". And don't sweat it too much, 'cause damnit, there's organic webshooters to bitch about! P.S. I'd like to see the people who are kickin' it on the MTV bashers in this TB. I'll bet most of them don't look good in a belly shirt or tight v-neck either. Just a hunch.
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Dec 04, 2002 6:20:43 PM CST
Reminder: Return to middle earth is on TONIGHT on the wb at 7 ce
by tuesday
and oh yeah - MTV sux!
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semper fi Jimmy. i served in the suck from 86'-90' when there sort of was a bad guy to fight against who then turned out to be a not so bad guy. any way i'm not sure i would serve again.... it is just to complicated a world, but at least you don't have to sit around as much. I always thought liberal stood for change and conservative for don't change it. sooooo to be conservative means to not go out pickin fights with little countries. Viggo can say what ever he wants; it is after all still a free country. Me I am like Jimmy. In fact I thought I was one of the last hippy Marines.
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I didnt know that MTV and VH1 were together. I will have to find somewhere else to watch my music vids, there is no way I am about to give any credibility for what VH1 put on. If VH1 want to showcase Child killers then they can fuck off and MTV for that matter. Thanks Ebonic, I guess I have to choose carefully when watching music vids. This will also mean I will miss out on watching MTV MOVIEHOUSE, sigh. At least by doing this, I am not supporting child killers like VH1 does. Thanks for the info.
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Dec 04, 2002 6:36:35 PM CST
MTV Jumped The Shark When ALTV Ended OR... The "Weezer" Incident
by jollydwarf
Actually, there are TWO Weezer incidents. Back during the promotion of the "Green Album", there's a video clip (floating around on Ka-zam and all those great shareware programs...I know, it's KaZaA...Jesus!) of River and co. mocking the shit out of this blond BJ--I mean VJ--hussie for her obnoxious laugh and insipid questions. You almost--ALMOST--feel sorry for her, and then you remember who she's "representin'". But the greatest tribute to the fucked-up state of "Music Television" has to be when I was watching M2 back in May of '01 and the video for "Hashpipe" came on. Only it was the video for "H***pipe". And they bleeped "hash" everytime. No open drug endorsements on OUR STATIONS!! Hmph! Anyway, right after the song's over, fade to commercial, and it's a thirty second spot for the "Green Album", which was a clip from the "Hashpipe" video. And sure enough, during the PAID ADVERTISEMENT, you could hear the words "hash" and "pipe" in perfect sync with Cuomo's lip movement. That sums it up to me. Do I make myself clear, Mr. Bender? "Crys-tal..."
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Dec 04, 2002 7:09:33 PM CST
Okay, I understand why Charlie Rose was talking to Peter Jackson
by thewoodman
...what was Kurt Cobain doing there? I thought someone told me he died or something. Did he do the end-title song, like Enya did for "Fellowship"? And how come they kept putting up Viggo Mortensen's name?
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What YOU recognize as reality doesn't necessarily have to coincide with the direct experience of a misinformed and uneducated actor who quite probably is out of touch with the world that he has seen more of it than you ever will in your whole lifetime.
I wouldn't talk in derogatory terms about other people's education when your own is sorely lacking. -
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely that was sarcasm from GypsyTRobot(look at the heading); at least, that's how I read it. And I think the main point Viggo was making (seconded by Elijah) was that we should actually listen to and DISCUSS alternate points of view - particularly before rushing headlong into war. Thoughtful listening means actually considering the points that are being made, not just waiting for the next silence to jump in with your own knee-jerk arguments. I do not understand the argument that actors are not entitled to political opinions or that they should not express them; they are citizens like the rest of us, as likely to be well-informed (or ill-informed) and as well or badly-educated, and we could probably use MORE citizen involvement on every level, not less. I also find the liberal/conservative divide not particularly useful (it is just another example of the Us vs. Them mentality that is more busy establishing blame than solving problems). Most people have some attitudes that fall along either side of this artificial "division" - or would, if they were at all bothering to collect information and think for themselves. (An attitude I do find reminiscent of Nazi Germany is the idea that "people in power know best" and we should not question their judgment.) As others above have pointed out, there are liberals as well as conservatives in the military. I personally refuse to accept the stereotyping that as a liberal, I am opposed to all force, which was not something I ever said or believe. But given that the primary threat in the world today is from terrorists who could exist in any country (including our own), I hardly think my world is made safer by bombing any one country, with unforeseeable long-term consequences. ***Did stopping Hitler justify bombing Dresden? Or are there absolutely NO moral problems involved, once a country decides it is justified in its war(s)?
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Errmmm someone please explain me why that actually is something to cheer about? And then, please, explain it to the good professor.
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Dec 04, 2002 9:17:27 PM CST
I just got finished watching Return to Middle Earth on the WB...
by red raider
Amazing. I haven't been this fired up about a director and his films in a long, long time. Simply amazing. ___GO P.J.!!!
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Then we can talk about the film,or am I in the wrong forum?
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Dec 04, 2002 9:48:23 PM CST
Catch Me If You Can & Gangs Of New York >>>> The Two Towers
by nickfoley
Its true. No use in denying the facts.
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THE WARGS ARE SO FREAKIN' FAKE!!! WORSE CGI THAN STAR WARS!!!!! but other than that this movie looks unbelievably cool. I always thought that Gimli would actually be a much better source of comic relief than Pippin. Oh, and no matter how realistic Gollum may look, nominating him for the "best actor" oscar is ABSOLUTE LUNACY. there, I said it. don't kill me.
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First of all, MTV has not been MTV since the beginning of the 90's. All they show now are rap videos, the Real World, or this piece of flaming shit show that ruined TTT for these good patrons. Everyone should boycott MTV for the rest of their lives. Unless of course you like rap videos, the Real World, or this flaming piece of shit show that ruined TTT for these good patrons. Anyway, they should really change the name of the station.
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Im sitting here at work right now and the AWEFUL Entertainment Weekly just showed like, WAAAY too much of TTT, with all the actors and stuff outside the movie. I became somewhat sick, cuz it was being forced waaaay too much. Made me pretty upset to see THE HYPE MACHINE in FULL GEAR.
BUT! They showed that shot where Aragorn says, they're coming, and then the CGI of the wargs, and I thoughts uh-oh becuase it really didnt look too real. Im nervous, now, and I have ordered my two tix last week.... -
I mean, no doubt, if its in context, I will cheer and cheer. But really.
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I think you are probably too fair, open-minded and intelligent to be involved in Talkback. I've seen this behaviour from you more than once. You really stand out among the Neanderthal grammar and homophobic slurs. You're simply too good for this! Really. But thanks for lowering yourself to this level. It gives me hope.
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First of all I think the Wargs look fine. So what if they look a little CGI or fake. THEY'RE FUCKING WARGS FOR CHRISTS SAKE. My God they are creatures that don't exist. Just have some fun with it. Now I'm not saying that all bad CGI is justified but when they are trying to portray characters in a fantasy movie that do not exist I think a little suspension of disbelief on our parts is not too much to ask. And Sherlock Holmes I have often wondered the same thing about the term "geek" myself. I think by calling someone an "enthusiast" it somehow takes away the sheer geeky stupidity that all hobbies have and gives it some sort of importance. Personally I call myself a beer conosieur (sp?) because it somehow justifies my drinking way too much on the weekends. But hey, what else is college for?
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Dec 04, 2002 10:31:54 PM CST
Decourm Broken and Norms Broken its the MTV way....
by 20th century fox
While I'm not surprised that Viacommunist owned MTV would do such a thing. What does surprise me is the surprise by people here on this site that they would ruin thier movie experience of LOTR:TTT for MTV (whos ratings has been sinking even with the Osbuornes being played 30 times a day) to make a quick buck for its child murder loving parent company Viacom. When they forced grunge music and herion was OK on us it was OK ,cause they were shattering decourm and breaking norms. So now MTV broke your decourm and shattered YOUR norm and now you bitch and moan. After all there are a whole bunch of 13 y.o. kids who think you old guys got what you deserved. Your norms were shattered and to MTV that was good. Yeah to MTV you are getting old , But hey your still going to watch MTV at the end of the day. They know it and you know it. Send all hate mail to Bankofkev@hotmail.com
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hello people - I was there at this movie house thing the other night and they totally warned me and sure seemed like everyone else about what was gona happen inside before we even walked in the damn place. Maybe it's the holidays - but im thankful i got the chance to see TTT in the first place. If you can't respect that - go buy TTT on pirated dvd in china town and shut the heck up. sheesh!
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When North Korea announced it was building Nuclear Weapons in Violation of a treay created by the American Left were was the anti-war crowd? Did they go to the DMZ and protest Kin-Jung-Il? NO! When Saddam is budilng WMD's in the late 90's and selling them to terrorists did the anti-war movement protest at the Iraqi embassy? NO! When Hamas blows up kids in Israel. Did the Anti-war crowd protest Yesser Arafat? NO! They were out protesting that the US should give future homiside bombers here illegally in the Us a tution break. Yeah I sleep very well at night knowing republicans control all three branches of goverment...Send all hate mail to bankofkev@hotmail.com
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Dec 05, 2002 12:25:45 AM CST
The Greeks Don't Want No Geeks OR... Why Ogre Became a "Neeeerrr
by jollydwarf
You remember "ROTN2: Nerds in Paradise", right? The reason why certain hobbies/pursuits/OBSESSIONS don't have aficianados called "geeks" is because a.)geeks do things that stupid people are afraid of and don't comprehend and b.)the geek-associated hobbies are just that: usually liked by people who are considereed "geeks" before anyone even knows what they care about. Look, football players get pussy JUST BECAUSE THEY PLAY FOOTBALL. It's so primal, it's not funny. Guys don't "get some" for being able to sketch the map of Middle Earth on a cocktail napkin, while pretending to enjoy a pint of Romulan Ale. It just ain't happenin' (And if it is, please tell us now, so we too can escape to whatever alternate dimension you're posting from). If (hoo-boy, here we go!) pretty AND vapid chicks dig what you enjoy, then you're not a "GEEK". If not, well, take the money from the "dating" part of your budget and splurge on another set of Dragonball Z figures. It's beyond rational these days. It's just accepted. But the good news (?) is that as video games and computers are now (fanfare please) ahem...MAINSTREAM!, the stigmas are getting less rigid. And it works both ways. Don't think that there aren't bona fide SPORTS GEEKS. If you've ever listened to Jim Rome or ANY SPORTS RADIO, then you know whom I speak of. You think obsessing over casting decisions is pathetic, just listen to some of these guys lament greedy free agents and multi-millionaire illiterates. Now I like the entertainment/multimedia industry first and sports like third, so I can enjoy them with a detatchable passion, as paradoxical as that may sound. But some of these guys would put you AND Rainman to shame on statistics alone. But back to the second part of the topic. Why DID Ogre become a nerd? Because "geeks" are simply fans that go a little bit farther than the next person and deviate at least one degree of separation from the super-homogonized and lobotomized Ken and Barbie that we're all supposed to be, according to pop culture. And you can have attractive geeks. Like the person whose inner beauty goes largely unappreciated, attractive geeks are usually not perceived with the depth that they'd like. And they're usually smart enough to refrain from telling the girl at the bar about how out of touch George Lucas is or about the Biblical parallels of the Matrix trilogy. While I'm not going to get into it here, I have kind of over the last 10 years been on both sides of that equation. But nevertheless, the last few embers of the fire are dying out, so I'll tell that tale when it's warranted. But let me leave you with this: once a geek, always a geek. Some people (actually, the majority) will never understand your passion, be it cars, Starcraft, vampires, Quidditch, hoops, seven-string guitars, fashion...you name it. You're hardwired differently. And no matter how you tweak the outside, that good ol' taped-glasses, slicked hair "Nerd" is going to come up and bite you in the ass eventually. But again, that's for some other time.
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i'm sick of reading all this complaining about MTV ruining the two towers. you ingrates got to see the movie two weeks before the rest of the country and not have to fight for tickets. what the hell did you expect when entering a theater that mtv was shooting a show at? of course they were going to shoot you dumbasses! stop your whining and pay $10 like the rest of us come december 18th.
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for posting that jollydwarf,
I promise not to toss you. -
There is a lot of use of the "f" word on this site! This political banter is boring. MTV is boring. On a movie subject, I just saw the WB's TTT special and I just can't wait to see the movie. I can't believe that the reviewer on EW gave TTT a "B" review and gave Die Another Day an "A-" and Harry Potter a "B+". Harry Potter was boring in parts that I kept wanting to scream "cut" and Die was just a fun popcorn average movie. Based on other reviews, it seems like TTT should be better than a "B".
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Dec 05, 2002 12:59:40 AM CST
The Excuse OR... AICN: It's Not Just For Kevin Smith's Inspirati
by jollydwarf
Look, I think that if nothing else, it's safe to say that a shitload of us were looking for a reasonable excuse to go off on MTV. It is indeed everything that even reasonably intelligent people should despise. Yeah, I know (in a cartoonishly dour voice) "Well, den don't watch it!" And how about "Huh-huh, yer lucky dat dey don't scramble yer signal, ya ugly (say it with me) 'basement-dwellin' virgins'!" (Incidentally, AICN, can you have a confetti flash animation on the screen when the one millionth person types "basement-dwelling" and "virgins" in the same post. I'd hurry, because if my projections are correct...let's see here...you're lookin' at, oh, February for that milestone. Probably on VD, just because irony rules the universe) Whew! As I was rambling, the people who went to this screening probably did not know EXACTLY what they were getting into. Across the board. Will they know next time? Shit yeah. But this frothing at the collective mouth is obviously about so much more than a single screening. Doesn't this entire TB indicate as much? It's really about a cultural force that IS wielding the ONE RING, so to speak, wrecking everything that we love (movies, music, the English language, you name it)and catering to some sort of infantile mind that's pituitary gland has already kicked in. In short, to reference what Ms. Garafolo (sp?) already said a couple months ago on Conan, it's the "jingling keys in front of a baby" syndrome. It's just that on this chain of keys are bare mid-riffs, rapid-fire cutting, blunted emotions, the paradox of sanitizied hip-hop, boys not to men, and sex, sex, SEX. Listen, I hardly needed to read the reviews, before I was off and ranting. MTV has really fucked things up but good and it all started WAAAYYYY before this debacle. Not sure about the exact moment, but the mental implosion is long underway. Now I'm all cranky again. Thanks. For nothin'.
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And they suck. What a wierd list.
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Dec 05, 2002 1:59:42 AM CST
TTT Trailer- Theoden:"I will not risk open war", Aragorn:"open w
by antoniusbloc
Viggo's comments were ignorant and inappropriate. It's like he's using the media attention the success of the films is attracting to preach his politics, in a similar way one would abuse the ring of power.
A young looking Aragorn or Sean Bean as Aragorn is looking real good right now. When I first read his comments, my first emotional reaction was dreading how difficult it might be to watch this guy in the TTT and not have those ignorant comments come to mind,and possibly ruin the film for me.
At the same time, as someone pointed out about big hollywood actors: What else is new? How many actors out there do I have to forget that I completely disagree with their politics and root for them on screen? Well, IF i knew all their positions on politics, probably all of them. (thank God for Mel Gibson ).
But the point is not to have to agree with an actor's politics, but the fact that Viggo used an opportunity to preach his ignorant pacifism at an inappropriate time, essentially using the attention the film is getting as a result of its success as an opportunity to make a political speech. At least most actors are either smart enough to keep it to themselves, or make such speeches where they are supposed to be made, such as a political rally or event, or a funeral for a Democratic Senator.
Despite his stupidity, I know I can get over this initial emotional reaction, and logically separate the actor and his performance. I know his ignorance of politics doesn't change the fact I think he is a good actor,and could give a great performance in TTT.(unlike Viggo, i have to distinguish my emotions from logic, which pacifists seem incapable of doing). I'm also confident PJ will make me forget about this by keeping me engrossed in a well told story.
Having said that, I think what Viggo actually said on the show is dead wrong ( giving a non-answer as to why he takes the position against the U.S.), and he is dead wrong about how he relates Tolkien's story to the present situation.
Clearly Tolkien did not intend his story to be specific alleghory, however, he does acknowledge that the themes can be applicable. So, instead of saying Hussein is Saruman, and Bush is Aragorn(or vice versa as Viggo would have it), let's look at the themes. As someone pointed out earlier, it's almost laughable that Viggo is preaching pacifism while being interviewed about a story about a just war. Tolkien clearly was not a pacifist, and that was reflected in his story, because in Middle Earth, as in our own world, he believed in objective good and evil, not the moral equivalency of pacifism that Viggo preached. Good and evil are very real, and a heavy price will be paid for non-action against evil. In the book, this is one of the major lessons the Hobbits must learn, and do learn by the end of the book. If Viggo himself were Frodo, he never would have volunteered to take the ring to Mordor. He would be afraid of offending Sauron, and they would have to kill innocent orcs, which is wrong. If Gandalf had taken Viggo's view, he never would have considered Moria to face the Balrog. Viggo seems to take the attitude of the hobbits in the new Green Dragon scene on the SE where they advise Frodo to mind his own business and no trouble would come. That's exactly the attitude the Hobbits grow out of. So, in real life, Viggo is kind of like that Hobbbit, and President Bush is more like Aragorn/Strider "all that is gold does not glitter." No one expected Bush to be the great leader he is showing himself to be, against a very real evil. The latest TTT trailer comes to mind when Theodon says, "I will not risk open war", and Aragorn replies, "open war is upon you , whether you risk it or not." What if Theoden took Viggo's attitude. Instead, he takes a stand, as the U.S. and President Bush is doing. Viggo sounds more like Wormtongue. Again, Viggo offered no alternative. Like Wormtongue, he would have us be gradually destroyed by these terrorists before taking action. But Wormtongue is a little harsh, because he had evil purposes, the ignorance of the Hobbits is probably a closer reflection of Viggo's comments.
I wonder if PJ knew anything about this, and if not, he must be PO'd because, although I can seperate the actor's politics and his performance, I know there are a lot of patriotic people out there who can't. If Viggo keeps it up, I can see it possibly hurting the box office numbers. Then again, if the movie as as great as the initial buzz, it probably won't matter.
MTV sucks. -
Thats a weird turn by, kiss ass publication "Entertainment Weekly". I would have thought they would gush all over it like the mindless Jackson lovers in here and give it a A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
like every other movie besides Star Wars. -
is made for stupid people to enjoy.
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Dec 05, 2002 4:42:05 AM CST
To all of you that are saying that actors should shut up and not
by enigmainyourhead
...you must realize that Ronald Reagan wasn't only the US president from 1981 to 1989, but also starred in such films as Bedtime for Bonzo and Million Dollar Baby.
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Dec 05, 2002 4:46:16 AM CST
"Everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference and the promise o
by billy talent
Come on. It's great to have someone in the puplic eye speaking out against this ridiculous "war on terrorism". I mean, Ol' Doc Strangelove himself, Henry Kissinger has been assigned to get to the bottom of 9/11. Could Dark Lord Bush's administration make it any more explicit that they have absolutely no intention of ever getting to the bottom of 9/11? When it comes to killing innocent people, Americans included, the likes of Bin Laden and Saddam are little leaguers compared to Kissinger, a man who ranks along with Hitler and Stalin among the great evils of our time. The bottom line is that the Bush administration is even more secretive than Nixon's, they've offered no evidence, they're going out of their way to silence dissent, and they're demanding that the rest of the world go along with a war against Iraq that makes no sense at all, except as an extension of Bush Sr's war for gulf oil.
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Some of you americans are so.. funny? pathetic? I can't decide really..
You call the US "the greatest democracy" in the world, sometimes even "the only true democracy"..
What the hell are you guy's smoking?
Can you spell I G N O R A N T ?
Now, before you start boiling, let me just say that I LOVE many, many aspects of the US,
and that I know that you guys have made a lot of improvements in the world, but..
The fact is, you need to get yourselves informed a bit better.
I didn't se the Viggo interview, but what I've read from it, it seems Viggo's right on the money.
If you don't believe him, then why is it that the US are so friendly with Saudi Arabia or China?
Those countries are just as bad as Iraq, in many cases even worse.
I'm sure most of you even think that Iraq is a Islamic country. Well ofcourse many of them are muslims,
but the fact is that a very large part of the population are Christians (just as many of the Palestinians).
Even Tarek Aziz (spelling?) is christian. But then again, you probably don't know who that is.
Iraq is a secularized country and Saddam Hussein probably don't gives a rat ass about any other religion than
the "whorship-of-saddam" religion
Don't get me wrong, I believe that for the sake of all good, Saddam should be taken out.
But you should do it of the right reasons, in the right manner, and it is not up to George W Bush to decide this matter by him self.
There is something called International Law. Why do the US feel that they, and only they, are above it?
If you were the only true democracy on earth, then maybe you should be above all others, but the fact is,
that the US is one of the least democratic countries of western civilization.
If you knew anything about the world outside the US, you also would know this.
BTW, did you know that only Mexicans are worse when it comes to geography than the Americans? -
Ofcourse I don't mean all americans.. Even jerks like Ryalto can manage to surprise you..
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Could you point out that how LOTR says it's accetable to kill innocent people if your final goal is a good one? It doesn't. The good guys in the story kill only enemy soldiers, and they kill them only for self defence. Also, the whole story is about the destruction of the ultimate weapon. USA is clearly not interested in destroying the nukes they own themselves, they just want nobody else to have them. Even if I disagree Ryalto all the time, he is kind of right. Bush would use the ring for a "good cause". And I guess so would you. The fact is that this "war on terrorism" and 9/11 are both straight consequences of USA's own immoral actions around the world. USA has even gone to the extent of overthrowing democratically chosen goverments in other countries, and those goverments have been replaced by military dictatorships which have worked under the control of USA (Guatemala). I don't think I have to point out how much USA is responsible for the heated, anti-american situation of Middle-East. Viggo pointed out that you should try to look things from all perspectives before making hasty decisions which will affect the lives (and deaths) of countless of people. Apparently you don't agree with him, but it's not him who is being silly. He tries to act responsible and doesn't act like a populist. I have never been able to say the same thing about Bush, who is clearly being dishonest and likes to twist things so that they fit his own goals. For example I have always find it funny how the terrorist hate USA for your "freedom". Erm... Hello? If they hate your freedom, why in 9/11 they wanted to destroy the symbols of your military and economical power instead of Statue Of Liberty? They don't hate you for your freedom, they hate you because you have interfered with their lives in violent manner for decades. Sometimes you have even taken their freedom from them. I'm sure that Viggo is willing to protect his country when it is in danger. But Iraq is not a threat to USA. It's a country on the other side of the world and it wants to have nothing to do with USA. It's not intending to conquer you. Personally I don't mind it if USA goes to war with Iraq, I'm pretty neutral about it. There *might* be good results to it, and there *might* be disastrous results to it. But there are other sides to things than just blind, misguided patriotism. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you have the right to kill others because you are morally superior. You have the "right" to kill others simply because you are bigger and stronger than they are. I'm not arguing about that "right", you obviously can do as you please. Just prepare to pay for the consequences.
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Dec 05, 2002 6:57:40 AM CST
It IS pretty funny. Providing it doesn't happen to *you*, of cou
by aliceinwonderlnd
I know I shouldn't laugh, but I can't help it. It's like somebody's worst nightmare come
to life. Somebody gives you FREE, ADVANCE tickets to see TTT. Yeah, you have to do lame
cheering and camera-mugging, but like, you should care, because it's TTT and it's FREE and
ADVANCE. And then, just as the final climactic battle comes up, somebody starts shining
a bright light in the cinema, and talking to you, loudly. God, it's a good job no-one in
there was armed. It IS pretty funny, when you think about it, but possibly I only find it
so because it didn't actually happen to me. Anyway. TTT sounds like it could be good. But I am anxious because it sounds like the hobbit contribution has been downgraded, and I'm very partial to my crying midgets... -
All this moralising about who (BUSH or anyone else) is right and wrong is boring me to tears. You're all having heated arguments about something that is basically a media tag-line. The "war on terror" is nothing of the sort. If that were the case, Al-Quaeda, the IRA, Jemia Islamia, Hammas, Hizbollah etc would all be blown to hell. This military action is nothing more than face saving for the United States. The events of September 11 2001 were an absolute outrage and those who were involved should be brought to justice. However you forget that the US tried (very halfheartedly) to kill Osama and his cronies a long time ago with Tomahawk Cruise Missle attacks on Afganistan. The US had to demonstrate to the world how powerful it was by bombing the fuck out of a Third World backwater and demonstrating it's superiority. Now my country can't be complacent, we contributed (an entire 150 troops, but that's an entirely different debate...) to this 'war,' however it's interesting to see a 'war' on TV that is hailed a huge success that doesn't achieve it's primary goal. It's amazing to see the change in the wind, ie: Rumsfeld etc, "oh no. We've greatly reduced Al-Quaeda's capability..." All the US achieved in it's 'war' was a temporary fragmentation of Al-Quaeda and the restoration of some national pride. You did not get the main baddy and you did not stop terrorism from happening again, witness, Bali, Kenya etc. Anyway, TTT is gonna rock despite PJ's apparent vicious cutting of the story... Cheers.
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Dec 05, 2002 8:11:53 AM CST
What more needs to be said -- MTV has fucked up this country
by sofalord
It is good to see that people recognize MTV for the bottom-dwelling scum hole that it is. But then I've known that since it started over twenty years ago.
It alone has probably lowered the intelligence levels in this country more than even forced lobotomies.
And look at the cretins they have "raised" to the level of stars for no apparent reason other than they had to have someone to fill up screen time. -
Point 2: I'm just glad that America has stopped funding the IRA ( officially ). All that money given in those fancy New York dinners. I wonder how much got back to Al Kaida and if any of the fundraisers got blown away on 911. Just a thought.
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http://film.guardian.co.uk/lordoftherings/news/0,11016,854301,00.html
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Dec 05, 2002 9:05:40 AM CST
"I love fantasy films and read part of a Noam Chomsky book, I kn
by sparkdog
It's astonishing to me when foreigners--who get into a twist when Americans try to tell them how to live their lives or whatever--lecture Americans about the current situation. It's fun to piss on "the straights" isn't it? It makes little folks feel big to say "shocking" things. Too bad you don't have facts to back up your statements, just generalities like "US foreign policy" caused 9-11 (yeah, the foreign policy that affected the multi-millionaires and upper middleclass religious nutcases who flew those planes--excuse me, by that logic I guess people who shoot abortion doctors are acting on similar impulses--them doctors and pregnant women caused those attacks). Such wacky rightwingers like Christopher Hitchens (who also hates Kissinger) are behind the attack on Iraq. So forgive me if your generalities don't convince me.
Some history for the LOTR fans who think that that's Viggo and Charlie to you are the height of intelligence. Saddam is NOT violating US agreements: he's violating an agreement forced on him by your precious UN. (You know the UN, made up mostly of representatives from countries that aren't democratic?) This was after he took over an adjoining country, lit oil wells on fire, killed Kuwaitis (the rich ones got out, the foreign servants didn't, so Saddam's murderers took care of quite a few of them). After harassment and spying caused the UN inspectors to leave the inspections...there were no reprisals. The UN said "You will let us inspect your weapons." After awhile, the man who has killed hundreds of thousands (@170,000 Iraqis have "disappeared" in the last ten years, according to Amnesty International) of his own people, simply said "No more."
The UN did nothing.
After 9-11, Bush started doing the incredibly horrible thing of striking back against the terrorists, which resulted in...an Afghanistan on the very, VERY long road to democracy. But on that road. Women free to go to school, yup, that Bush sure be eeeeevil.
Saddam allows el quaeda to train in his country. He funds terror. He has accumulated weapons of mass destruction--NOT in violation of some US law but UN law. Bush wants to crush Saddam, thus breaking the backbone of the terroist network.
Yeah, GW is quite the warmonger. For his oil buddies. Someone please explain how these oil darklords have ordered Bush to do this -the price of oil dropped through the floor after Gulf War One, you might recall. Or not.)
Is oil an element of this? Of course it is--but the US gets a tiny percentage of its oil from Iraq, and is getting more from Russia and Canada, anyway. No one has ever explained HOW oil is connected to this situation--they just point and say "Oil, see?" The US wouldn't be able to just walk in and take the oil--you can say that is true, but dream on, or at least prove your point, don't just repeat it.
This is what happens when fantasy fans who know the name of the digital technician who worked on Gollum's left hand think that means they're intellectuals.
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that's what you get for trying to get something for nothing, son. You don't have a complaint coming. Either go legit, get press credentials, and go to a press screening, or suck it up and be a good little monkey and play your part in the media organ grinder show. One way or the other, please shut the fuck up.
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Your post is not related to my post in any way, except for the "USA foreign policy caused 9/11", so I will comment on that. The quoted statement is of course true. Terrorists didn't just pick up a random place to attack. If they did, they could have just as well attacked Sweden. I don't have a vast knowledge of the Middle-East situation, but USA does heavily support Israel, it has had many past conflicts with muslim countries, it has supported military attacks against muslim countries. These are the reasons why 9/11 happened. Are you telling me that these things are not part of "foreign policy", eh?
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Well Sparkdog, the thing is that a lot of us foreigners knows more about international politics than the average american. And this is International politics, it
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Andy Serkis should win a special Oscar just for flailing around in a freezing mountain stream like a madman, several times over. The man is either insane or the most dedicated professional I've ever seen. Oh and the Wargs did look fake, but the scene itself was pretty intense. Despite all my misgivings, by the end of the WB special I was emitting a high-pitched shrieking noise similar to Bilbo's at the beginning of the Hobbit. P.S., this special should have been called "Legolas 2, Electric Bugaloo." "Legolas and his companions, blah blah blah" - like that poofy elf is the star of the movie. Gimli got hardly a mention and Gandalf fared little better. Damn WB and its teenage demographics! + and totally off topic, do you think James Martser is gay?? http://www.lovely-misery.net/spike/en/layout2.jpg
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There's a new agency in town. Perhaps you've heard of it: The Information Awareness Office. And a fun new Program that the IAO runs called the Total Information Awareness Program. Ring a bell? It should. Kiss your civil liberties bye bye, boys and girls. Check out the American government's new Information Awareness Office ( http://www.darpa.mil/iao/ ). While you're at it, check out the IAO Resource Center ( http://www.geocities.com/totalinformationawareness/ ) And, yes, that logo is for real (the eye of Sauron, indeed). For those that don't know, the IAO's Total Information Awareness Program hopes to build a database containing every citizen's transaction history, travedl history, website usage, and more. Just do a little search on Google for it, and you'll realize that no one but the Administration, the Pentagon, and a few related lawyers is for this thing. And yet it already has been slipped into existence by the Homeland Security Act. Creepy! This should freak ALL of us out, liberal and conservative alike. Knowledge is Power and we all know what power does...
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Bush stated yesterday, "We are not a country of conquerors; we are a nation of liberators." I don't know why but it couldn't stop laughing. Watch out world the US is going to liberate your poor ass rather you like it or not... the man is rather scary.
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jello was right
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that Poindexter of Iran-Contra fame is running the Big Brother show. Meanwhile Kissinger is appointed to investigate 9/11. Is this a crazy mixed-up world we're living in or what?
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Dec 05, 2002 11:50:29 AM CST
this reminded me of a less then happy experience i had....
by kicker_of_elves
it was during Star Wars episode 2..... right when jango and obi wan are bout to go at it.. a guy in back of me farted... this wasnt a quiet one this was loud like a fat bastard one.... and it made me look at my buddy instead of the movie...thats my worst moment spent watching a movie i really want to see...
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We really don't care what you think...really. Worry about yourselves and your own country. This is a forum discussing LOTR:TT. Thanks and be good.
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I notice the warning against "OFF-TOPIC BS," and I have to wonder what exactly is the topic? We have the pro and anti MTV groups, the people arguing about the war, and the whole question of what is a geek.I think I'll start with the MTV subject first...
I'm sorry, Tom Edison, but barging into a movie while it's running under any circumstances (unless the theater's under attack) is plain rude. Yes, MTV paid for the screening. But that doesn't mean that they can't wait until *after* the screening to ask people what they think. If MTV did this in any movie, it would be rude and appaling, but to interrupt the climax like this is unforgiveable.
As for all the people saying that these people shouldn't complain because they saw it early.... so what? These people are obvioiusly grateful for the opportunity to see this. That doesn't mean they should be forced to watch it under lousy circumstances and still be grateful.
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What's with the virulent homophobia Sherlock? Who cares if Ben Affleck is gay?
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Dec 05, 2002 12:49:44 PM CST
I really, REALLY don't want to call the President stupid, but, u
by cooldan989
http://www.valiant.co.za/praat/1036655243/This_man_is_about_to_start_a_war.jpg. This is a bad sign if I ever saw one.
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The Two Towers (Being the Second Part of The Lord of the Rings), J.R.R. Tolkien, Boston, 1954, 1973,
Ballantine Books.
The title refers to the two towers the company encounters on their trip down the Great River just before being separated.
The continuation of the story of the company of Gandalf, the wizard, and Frodo Baggins, the hobbit, and their mission to unmake the One Ring by casting it into the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, located in Mordor, the land of the Dark Lord, Sauron. Book 4 follows Frodo and Sam. Book 3 follows the remaining five.
The fellowship becomes separated. Frodo was alone contemplating their destination--either to Mordor to destroy the Ring, or Gondor to help save Boromir's homeland from the imminent invasion of the Dark Lord, Sauron. Suddenly orcs attack and Boromir sounds his horn.
Frodo and Sam were already on their way to Mordor.
Pippin and Merry were captured by orcs and are bound for Isengard, the castle of Sarurman the White. Saruman was at one time the head of the Wizard's Council but now he has turned from good to evil, and is even attempting to undercut his master, the Dark Lord, Sauron, by grabbing the Ring for himself.
Boromir died bravely defending Pippin and Merry from the orcs.
Strider was looking for Frodo when he heard the horn of Boromir; when he returned the orcs had already gone, leaving the dying Boromir, covered in arrows and lying beside him, piles of dead orcs.
Legolas and Gimli were also looking for Frodo but on hearing the horn found and killed many orcs themselves; they found and rejoined Strider and the deceased Boromir.
Strider, Legolas and Gimli put Boromir into one of the elfin boats and laid beside him his own sword and at his feet assorted of the orc weapons. Then they struck out on the trail of the orcs. The orcs were traveling quickly, too fast for the three to keep up.
While in pursuit they met with horseback riders of Rohan returning from the direction the orcs had taken. Strider hailed them and their leader, Eomer, told him they had slaughtered the orcs but found no halflings among them. He gave Strider horses and the three continued their search.
That night an image of an old man appeared to them and scared away the horses. The next day while walking they saw another old man. This one it turned out was Gandalf, not dead after all but not the same either. Older but stronger, Gandalf the Gray now wore the color White. The vision of the previous night must have been Saruman.
Gandalf told them the hobbits are all right, but the Rohirrims needed help. He called for his horse Shadowfax and it brought along horses for the three. They rode to Edoras to Theoden, the king of the Rohirrims.
Gandalf breaks the spell of Wormtongue, the king's counsellor who was secretly in league with Saruman and arouses the Rohirrims to arms to defend their kingdom.
Ah, the love interest: Strider meets Eowyn, the king's niece and Eomer's sister.
Arrangements are made. The king will lead all of the able bodied men to fight the forces of Saruman. Eowyn will lead the rest to their mountain hideaway.
The king and Eomer, Gandalf, the three and the troops ride to Helm's Deep and successfully stave off Saruman's forces. At the end, the Ents arrive and finish up the orc stragglers.
The king, Gandalf, the three, Eomer and twenty soldiers ride to Isengard to confront Saruman. Gandalf has already spoken to Treebeard and knows his plans.
Merry and Pippin found themselves prized possessions of the orcs, who were admonished to do them no harm. Pippin maneuvered his hand bindings so that, when the Riders of Rohan attacked the orcs, he could free himself and Merry and so they escaped.
They disappeared into the Fangorn Forest, a wood that even the elves of Lothlorien had warned them against. As luck would have it (and hobbits tend to be lucky) they met Treebeard, an Ent. Ents are creatures that take care of the trees. They are older then any other living creatures and Treebeard was the oldest of the Ents.
After hearing their story, Treebeard made a rash decision (Ents do nothing quickly so this was unusual). He will call an Ent council about Saruman. This was done and decided. The Ents moved en masse to Saruman's castle. When they arrived, Saruman's army was already leaving, en route to fight the Rohirrims. After they left, the Ents attacked the castle itself and reduced much of it to rubble, trapping Saruman inside.
Merry and Pippin are reunited with Strider, Legolas and Gimli when all arrive at Isengard.
Gandalf offered Sarurman forgiveness if he turned away from his evil. Saruman refused. Gandalf rebuked Sarurman, revoked his color White and broke his staff. Wormtongue hurled an orb at Gandalf. It missed but Gandalf picked it up and took it away.
The Ents promised to guard the castle, to not let Saruman leave.
Merry gazes into the orb and sees and is seen by Sauron. Gandalf takes it from him and gives it to Strider. The orb (a palantir) allows those who possess it to communicate with another who possess one--Sauron had one also.
The company parts again. Gandalf and Pippin ride to the Steward of Gondor at Minas Tirith. (The Steward, Boromir's father, is a descendent of a long line of Stewards who ruled Gondor in the absence of the true king. Strider, his given name is Aragorn, is a descendent of the true king and heir to the throne but none in Gondor know it yet.) Strider, Merry, Legolas and Gimli ride with King Theoden and Eomer back to the troops at Helm's Deep. From there they will ride to their mountain hideaway and then on to Gondor to fight the Dark Lord.
Meanwhile, Frodo and Sam, on their way to Mordor, are attempting to climb the mountain Emyn Muil, but can find no passage. And, too, they see, feel and hear Gollum (Smeagol) following them. Sam finally has had enough. He confronted Gollum and together the hobbits overpowered him. Frodo made a deal: they will not kill Gollum and they will see that no harm comes to him if he will guide them through the mountains into Mordor. At that point, he will be free to go where he wishes as long as it is not to give them away to Sauron. Neither side fully trusts the other (and Sam is especially skeptical) but the deal is struck.
They cross the Dead Marshes where the faces of the dead peer up at them through the murky waters.
They come to the Black Gate at Ephel Duath, at the north end of the Mountains of Shadow range. It is closed and heavily guarded by the troops of the Dark Lord. Gollum tells them there is another way. A passage further south. They follow.
They meet Faramir, the brother of Boromir. He feeds them and tries to discourage them from their destination, the pass of Cirith Ungol. He learns more about their mission than Frodo wishes, due to Sam's exuberance. Faramir, however, is not his brother. He knows what they carry is better left unexercised, especially by himself and his people.
Gollum leads them into the trap he had been planning all along. To cross the mountain they must enter the cave of Shelob. Shelob is a spider-like creature with whom Gollum bargains--she may have the sweet hobbit meat but he might take possession of the useless articles that they carry.
Sam stabs her with Sting, Frodo's elfin sword and she crawls back into her lair but not before she pricks Frodo, who falls down as if dead. Indeed, Sam thinks he is dead and battles with himself what to do. Stay by his master's side? No, he must go on and finish what Frodo started, so he takes the ring from around Frodo's neck and takes his sword and leaves in its place his own sword. Then he heads off toward the pass.
But immediately he finds himself trapped on the road by orcs coming from both directions. He slips on the ring and becomes invisible. Frodo's body has been found. Some orcs are carrying him back into the cave, not to feed him to Shelob, but rather to lock him away in a part of the tunnels that she cannot reach. The Dark Lord wants him alive. Oh, yes, he is alive. Shelob was only stunning him. Sam follows but can not go past the door that closes behind them.
And so ends the second of three parts.. -
The Return of the King (Being the Third Part of The Lord of the Rings), J.R.R. Tolkien, Boston, 1955, 1973,
Ballantine Books.
The title refers to the return of the rightful heir of the title of king (Aragorn, a.k.a. Strider) to Gondor.
The continuation and culmination of the story of the company of Gandalf, the wizard, and Frodo Baggins, the hobbit, and their mission to unmake the One Ring by casting it into the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, located in Mordor, the land of the Dark Lord, Sauron. Book 5 follows the remaining five. Book 6 follows Frodo and then brings the fellowship back together and returns them to their respective lands.
The fellowship remain separated. Frodo and Sam were making their way to Mount Doom. Pippin and Gandalf rode the horse Shadowfax quickly to Minas Tirith in Gondor to warn the Lord Demethor, Steward of Gondor, of upcoming trouble from Mordor.
Demethor was in despair for he had another of the palantir (the orbs that allow the holder to see the future) and all he saw was ruination for Gondor. He was despondent over the loss of his favorite son Boromir and, when his other son, Faramir, returned victorious he sent him off on a mission that would surely cost him his life. He resented his second son for the loss of his first and he felt Faramir was too much under the influence of Gandalf.
Faramir did return and successfully so but he was on the verge of death. His father had him carried to the crypt (still alive) where he ordered his servants to lay kindling about them both and light it.
Pippin, who had offered himself and been accepted as a sword bearer for the Steward sees there is madness in master and ran off looking for Gandalf. Gandalf returned in time to save the life of Faramir but not that of the Steward.
Meanwhile, Aragorn, had planned to accompany the king of Rohan back to his mountain hideaway and then onward to Gondor but had a change of heart. He looked into the palantir and challenged Sauron. Aragorn, being the rightful king of Gondor, was perhaps the only person who would be able to look into the orb and not be overcome by it.
He, Legolas and Gimli and a small troop of Aragorn's kinsman rode off to Gondor by the direct, non-hidden route. They arrive at the Rohirrim hideaway and rest the night.
In the morning, Eowyn, the king's niece, begs to go along with him. She feels wasted here and wants to fight. He forbids it and tries to convince her she is more needed where she was.
Aragorn and company ride off toward the Path of the Dead. No one who ever attempted to travel the Path of the Dead ever succeeded but Aragorn believes that the legends will admit his entrance, he being the heir to the throne and on a mission to reunite the kingdom. Legend also has it that the dead remain trapped there because long ago they broke a vow to the previous king. If they will now help him, that vow will be rectified. His companions are not as sure but they willingly follow him.
They are allowed passage and they travel to the south of Gondor where enemies are already gathering. Aragorn calls for the dead to fulfill their vow. The enemies scatter before them, fleeing the spirits loosed upon them. He releases them from their vow and they rise up like dust into the air and are gone.
Here in the south, Aragorn gathers those loyal to the king and to Gondor and boards ships on the Great River and heads upstream toward Minas Tirith.
Eomer and Theoden king of Rohan, and Merry the hobbit, and their troops arrive at their mountain hideaway. Eowyn tells them of Aragorn's arrival and departure. They rest the night and make ready to depart for Gondor, via a longer but more certain route. The king tells Merry he must stay behind. He would be too small for the coming battle. He begs but to no avail. As the last rider leaves he bends down and asks if Merry would want to ride, hidden, with him. Merry has never seen this rider but somehow feel he knows him and assents.
At Minas Tirith battle rages. The walls are well fortified but the door has been breached. Gandalf has taken charge in the stead of the Steward. Orcs fall and others come forward to take their place. The enemy has dug a trench round the city and lit some substance placed in it on fire. The sun is blotted out by the smoke and stench. Hope is waning. There has been no word of the Riders of Rohan. The troops within the city have lost their spirit. Then there is a horn sound.
The Riders have arrived but the enemy is overwhelming. Theoden charges. The Rohirrims leap for the joy of the fight. Orcs fall before them. But they are still out-numbered.
And then Theoden falls. He is struck down by a Nazgul, a Ringwraith of Sauron (one of the Black Riders who were now riding flying beasts).
Merry is on the ground now and at his king's side. The Nazgul swoops and lands, the flying beast's claws dig into the side of Theoden's white horse. Merry raises his small hobbit sword in defiance but the Nazgul only laughs.
Then the rider who carried Merry in secret rides up. The Nazgul defies that any man should harm him. "What about a woman," the rider says and removes her helmet. It is Eowyn. She strikes and kills the Nazgul's flying beast but is thrown to the ground.
Merry now strikes the Nazgul in the calf and as he turns to see, Eowyn cuts off his head. The unnatural scream is heard over all of Gondor. Eomer rides up and sees those he loved lying dead, his king and his sister.
Then black sails are seen on the river and troops of the enemy take heart once more. Reinforcements. But the reinforcements are those Aragorn is leading. The rout commences. The battle is over but the war has only begun.
Theoden and Eowyn are carried into Minas Tirith. Then it is discovered that Eowyn is not dead. She and Merry are taken to the Houses of Healing but their wounds do not heal. The evil that was the Nazgul have caused it.
Legend says that the king was also a healer. Aragorn requests herbs and works them over Faramir, Eowyn and Merry. They do their work and the three start to revive.
Gandalf and Aragorn decide that, though they are still greatly out-numbered by the total strength of Sauron's troops, they must attack and soon, to keep the attention of the Dark Lord away from his own land (and the progress of Frodo and Sam toward the Mount of Doom)
They cross the river and head toward the dark gate.
Frodo, who lay in a state that resembled death from the sting of the spider creature, had just been found and locked away by the orcs. Sam put on the Ring and tried to follow but couldn't.
The orcs began arguing among themselves about what to do with Frodo: keep him as Sauron directed, or kill and eat him. Before long, the two groups were killing each other. Sam found Frodo and got him out of there and they were once more on their way to their doom.
On the way, Gollum once again was found to be following them. He no longer feigned friendship. He tried once to take the ring but, while Frodo and Sam were tired, hungry and thirsty, Gollum was more so, literal skin and bones. He retreated into the blackness.
Finally they came to Mount Doom. They found the Crack and Frodo made his way down it to the edge of a precipice. Down there was nothing but molten volcanic lava. He took the ring from the chain around his neck but, as Sam watched, he was taken by the Ring. 'I will keep the Ring,' he heard him say and then Frodo disappeared. Next thing Gollum was on him fighting for his Precious. Gollum's teeth sparkled and he bit and the next thing he was holding the ring with Frodo's finger still inside it.
Joy, elation and lack of sustenance intoxicated him and he lost his balance and down into the Crack of Doom he fell taking with him the One Ring, to be with his Precious forever.
Sam got Frodo outside but as the Ring fell the mountain resounded. The two sat down and waited. They had done their work and the world was safe but all does not always end as one wishes.
Gandalf and Aragorn challenged the black gate and expected to be overwhelmed. They walked into a trap -- a trap they expected. But the unexpected happened.
The sky that had cleared when they drove the orcs from Gondor now blackened again and the Black Tower of Sauron crumbled. Mount Doom belched and the orcs, astonished, took off in all directions.
The forces of Gondor blackened the earth with orc blood but Gandalf looked to the sky. He called the king of the eagles to him. 'You carried me once before. Can you do it again?' The eagle picked him up and, along with several other eagles, flew to Mount Doom. There they found the two hobbits, trapped by lava and smoke.
When Frodo and Sam woke up they were in beds. Gandalf was by their side. Soon all was ready for the return of the king to the city of Minas Tirith.
During their recuperation together in the Houses of Healing, Faramir, son of the Steward of Gondor and now the last Steward, himself, until the king returns, and Eowyn, sister of Eomer, the new king of Rohan fell in love. But Eowyn was torn between Faramir and Aragorn.
When Aragorn returned he called for Faramir to come down and greet him but he did not ask for Eowyn. But Aragorn had never loved Eowyn except that he saw her sorrow and wished to sooth it.
Aragorn was crowned king of Gondor and all rejoiced. Aragorn made Faramir, who was now not needed as Steward, a prince and gave him one of the cities of Gondor. Eowyn accompanied Eomer back to Rohan for a time but when the Rohirrims returned to Gondor for the body of their fallen king Theoden, she married Faramir.
The company of the Ring stayed in Gondor for a season until mid-summer. Then Aragorn's turn arrived. Elrond, the elf king, and his daughter, Arwen arrived in Gondor. Aragorn had met Arwen many years ago and fell in love with her but her father knew that Aragorn must walk through many trials before he could be free to marry. Now was the time. They were married.
Finally it was time for all to return to their homes. The hobbits accompanied Elrond and Gandalf to Rivendell to see Bilbo before returning to their home in the Shire.
Bilbo was now 129 years old, just one year shy of the oldest hobbit. He mostly slept and he obviously hadn't done much work on the red covered history book he was writing. He had filled in the pages concerning his adventures but those of Frodo's were little more than scratches of notes lying about his room.
After staying in Rivendell a while, Gandalf suggested it was time for them to go home. They were needed there. Bilbo gave Frodo his red book and all of his notes.
Gandalf and the four hobbits set off for the Shire but when they came to the turnoff for Tom Bombadil's house, Gandalf said goodbye. They would meet once more he said but his time was over. The third age of the world ended when Sauron was overthrown and the forth, the age of Men, has started. The hobbits now had to take care of themselves. But, he added, he had little doubt about their ability to do that.
When they got to the Shire they found gates and guards. It had been only a year and a half since they had left but things had changed quite a lot. The inns were torn down and so were many of the trees.
They found that Lotho Baggins, a cousin of Frodo's, an unscrupulous cousin, had taken over government of the Shire. He called himself the chief sheriff, or just 'The Chief.' He hired many other sheriffs to do his bidding and there were orc-like men to provide strong-arming if the hobbit sheriffs were not obeyed. Lotho never liked beer so all inns were torn down and in their place were built square sheds where the sheriffs stayed. The crops did well last year but most was taken from the hobbits (reassigned and shared) so that now most were poorly fed.
The Chief had not been seen lately but another thug had recently arrived, one Sharkey. It was assumed that Sharkey was the true boss, anyway and that the Chief was only the Chief while it suited Sharkey.
Merry and Pippin stirred the hobbits up to revolt. Frodo counseled restraint. Never had a hobbit killed another hobbit except by accident and now was no time to do so, even though there were a few that collaborated with the enemy. The revolt lasted only two days. The orc-men were killed or frightened away.
Then off to confront the Chief, who was living in the house that Bilbo had left to Frodo and that Frodo had sold when he left the Shire. When they got there it was empty, though quite dirty and foul smelling.
As Frodo walked out the door, he met an old man. Saruman! A.k.a., Sharkey. While Frodo and the hobbits tarried in Rivendell, Saruman, the wizard whose powers Gandalf had revoked, took a more direct route to the Shire. They had spoiled his house and his plans so he hurried here to spoil the Shire for them when they returned. Gandalf was right. Even though he lost his power as a wizard, he still had devilry in him.
Merry, Pippin and other of the hobbits intended to pounce on him but Frodo stopped them. While there is life, there is still hope for conversion.
But Saruman would not be tortured by Frodo's compassion. As he walked away he drew a knife and thrust it toward Frodo. Frodo's mail shirt protected him and the knife broke. Again the hobbits went to pounce but Frodo restrained them.
As Saruman walked away, Frodo called after his traveling companion, the one called Wormtongue, the evil counsellor of the king of Rohan who had had him under a spell until Gandalf freed him. 'You don't have to go with him. You have done nothing wrong that I know of.'
But Saruman turned and chided. 'Is that right. Who do you think killed Lotho, your Chief, and buried him. You did bury him didn't you?' 'You ordered me to kill him,' Wormtongue responded and Saruman just laughed. Wormtongue pulled his own knife and thrust it into Saruman. The hobbits shot at Wormtongue with arrows but too late to save Saruman. Both were dead.
Work began immediately on rebuilding the Shire.
But what of all the trees. Then Sam remembered the gift the Lady Galadriel of Lothlorien had given him, a small box of dust. He planted trees all about and added one grain of the dust to each. The next spring the trees burst forth and soon appeared to be many years old already.
Sam wanted to marry his childhood sweetheart but was torn because he didn't want to leave Frodo. Frodo solved the dilemma by suggesting they move in with him. That was done to everyone's liking.
But all was not well with Frodo. The wound he had received from the Black Rider had never healed and at times it caused him great distress. The following year Frodo called Sam to him. He showed Sam the book Bilbo had given to him. He showed him the various chapters concerning first Bilbo's adventures and then Frodo's and Sam's adventures. At the end were a few blank chapters left undone.
He asked Sam to accompany him on one last and short journey. He assured him he would be gone no more than a fortnight.
The two were off again. But shortly they encountered four more that they knew very well. Elrond, the elf king, Galadriel the queen of Lothlorien and Gandalf the White, each of who wore one of the three elf Rings. And behind rode Bilbo on his pony, barely awake.
Frodo told Sam they were all Ring-Bearers and so, now that the third age has ended, must also leave. Sam, too, bore the ring for a time but he had many years left here in the Shire. But wouldn't he ride with them a bit?
They arrived at the Grey Havens where a ship awaited them. There Merry and Pippin rode up to greet them. Gandalf had tipped them this time, where at the beginning of their adventures it was Sam who kept them informed on Frodo's doings.
They all embraced and kissed. Then the Ring-Bearers boarded the ship and sailed off into the West where elfin folk found rest.
Frodo had willed all his belongings and property to Sam, and Sam, his wife, Rose, and girl child, Elanor, lived very happily. Sam became mayor of Hobbiton seven times and had thirteen children. And the blank chapters at the back of Bilbo's and Frodo's red book were for him to fill in. This he did and quite happily. Sixty some years later Sam's beloved Rose died. That year, on September 22 (the anniversary of Bilbo's and Frodo's birthdays) Sam gave the red book to his eldest daughter, Elanor. He was never seen again. It is said he rode on to the Grey Havens and from there boarded a ship and passed over the Sea, the last of the Ring-Bearers. -
Tomten and Virkku: You can say foreigners know more about international politics than the average AMerican, but I'd like to see you prove it--just being against Administration policy don't make you a deep thinker, and asserting your patronizing attitude toward the people of the nation where thousands of people from other countries come for their education ain't proff, my friend. As for the US hurting a lot of Muslims, are you referring to those we saved with our military intervention in the Gulf War (them Kuwaitis sure weren't Jewish), the Baltics (an almost total botch by Bill Clinton, resulting in horrible civilian casualties, which also helped stop the fighting)and our millions of dollars of foreign aid? These things are part of "foreign policy", eh? Accusing me of "black and white" thinking is an old, old tactic, much like your superior attitude toward this little burg called America--where are the greys in YOUR view of 9-11 as being caused by the US? Saying I don't want to find out what was behind 9-11 is a real straw man--I don't see things your way, so I guess I don't want to know The Truth. Right. As for the causes, I don't recall US foreign policy coming up in the rich boy bin Laden's rationale except for the part about the US being in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War--the US was invited there, and only religious bigotry causes this hatred, that evil Christians were allowed so close to Mecca. (I guess if Jerry Falwell flew a plane into a Mosque because dirty Muslims were allowed in America, you'd say "Well, they had it coming." GETTING ON-TOPIC ALERT!:I wonder how viewing fantasy films affects people
s views of good and evil. The battle between G&E is at the core of so many such films, and I wonder how many fans carried their simplistic black and white (!) views into the real world, ala the dullard Viggo Mortensen. OK, sorry, sorry--Seriously, did viewing Star Wars or reading Rings set the foundations for some people's ideas about good and evil in the real world, and did that make it tough for varieties of grey (!!) to color people's views, as opposed to kids who came up in homes with abusive parents (the one you love is also the one you hate), broken homes, poor sections of cities (a guy I really liked as a kid was a drug dealer, I later learned)? I think Spielberg films, for example, are horribly black and white, for the most part, while films noir by their very definition star anti-heroes. -
By the way, they DO hate us for our freedom. These are religious psychopaths, who despise that we are a nation that is The Great Satan. Look at pre-attack Afghanistan, run by the Taliban--destroying artworks, killing women in soccer fields, forcing women from schools, etc. THAT is the world these "freedom fighters" want, folks, and saying this is some romantic battle of "little people" (yeah, Osama is from da street, bros) vs. eeeevil George Bush. As George Orwell pointed out about people who wanted Britain to stay out of WW2, if you're against those trying to stop the evil bastards out there, you're HELPING the evil bastards. This does NOT mean you can't disagree with the Bush administration--all I ever hear nowadays are anti-war people complaining they aren't being heard--when are they not being heard??? They don't like protesting and then have others counter their protests--most of the protesters are used to their campus protests, among people who think the way they do. What the anti-war peeps want is for the rest of us to shut up and let them have the stage. That's as wrong as Ashcroft and Cheney claiming critics of the Administration are anti-American. ON TOPIC ALERT! I will say that one of the most bizarre things about talkbacks are not those who want to discuss certain aspects of films which don't work, but those who HATE a film and post talkbacks about it. Weird.
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Nobody mentioned MTV at all until we were in line. The "Wana' see a free movie...?" guy didn't. The call-in/directions sheet didn't. If I'd known it was an MTV production I'd have stayed home. We were sequestered from 5:00PM until almost 11:00PM. Before were seated we were run up and down an escalator 4 times while clapping and being filmed.
The MC/First AD was a jackass that treated us like animals. The words "SI' DOWN!' and "Shut the fuck up!" were heard. Old T-shirts were given away. xXx and Bourne Identity. As mentioned above, mini-cam lights in the eyes during the big battle scene. They even kept us afterward to do some pickup audience claping shots for their "Maid in America" Movie House so they could save some money! They pushed us right to the edge and had security guards just in case. If we were a bunch of frat guys and not the gen-public things would have been otherwise. Bet on it. -
Bush has liberated Afghanistan. And now he's going to "liberate" Iraq. Why wasn't this done after the gulf war? Why now? I guess it's just coincidence. If 9/11 didn't happen, would Bush have gone in to "liberate" Afghanistan, as you have glorified him as doing?
What about North Korea and the rest of the world? Where are the plans to "liberate" them? -
Poop Mobile, Poop Mobile, Poop Mobile, Poop Mobile, Poop Mobile, Poop Mobile, Poop Mobile, Poop Mobile.
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The Palastineas hate America because we provide Isreal with all of its weapons. Weapons which it then uses aganst innocent cevilans or rock thowing cevilans. The half of this conflict that involves Isreal commiting atrositys goes vastly under reported in our press. I'm not defending Palastinan terrorists. I'm attacking Israli terrorists. The Palastins are just as durty in this game. But we need to understand and be infomed about our roll in it.
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Redneck wrote:"Why wasn't (the "liberation" of Iraq") done after the gulf war?" You ask this in a post about Bush being evil or not, but I don't know what liberating Iraq after the Gulf War has to do with him, he wasn't president then. The UN called for Kuwait to be liberated and no more. Those who condemn Bush 41 for not getting Saddam them are the same ones who say we have to do everything by UN mandate.***Redneck wrote:"Why now?" Bush has been talking about this since his state of the union speech in January, if you recall.***Redneck wrote:"I guess it's just coincidence. If 9/11 didn't happen, would Bush have gone in to "liberate" Afghanistan, as you have glorified him as doing?" I haven't glorified Bush as doing anything, that's what the US forces did, they liberated people who have been living under an oppressive system, and are now struggling to put together a democracy. Or do you think things were better before the US intervention? (liberate, v.: To set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control)(as in the Taliban)***Redneck wrote:" What about North Korea and the rest of the world? Where are the plans to "liberate" them?" I love when people bring up North Korea in this context: they always blast black and white thinking, then ask why we aren't dealing with every situation in the same way. North Korea recently asked the US for $210 million for food aid through the UN; the UN, China and Russia are encouraging N. Korea to end its arms program, and they are talking to S. Korea. So let me get this straight: You piss on Bush for not taking the diplomatic/UN route with Iraq, even after he DOES take the diplomatic?UN route....and then you hate him for NOT using military threats against N. Korea and using deplomacy to defuse that situation. Okay, gotcha.
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Our "diplomatic route" where taking with Iraq is little more then an excuse, a pretext for war. This seems quite clear. There have been instances here where we just can't take yes for an answer. Most people bring up North Korea to point out the dubble standard in US forgen policy. We voilently appose the possablity that oil rich Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. We sweep under the rug the possablity that pritty girl rich North Korea has weapons of mass destruction. By violently aposing reshems that have oil, we stand a chance of, by force, opening up oil markets and alowing big busness to make big profit. Pritty girls, it would seem, are no longer reason enuff to go to war. . . shame on the world.
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You can characterize the Bush posture as you wish, the point is we have engaged Iraq diplomatically. I wish I lived in the world some of you folks live in, where you don't threaten a murderer like Hussein with force and he just shows you around his weapons factories. As for the oil conspiracy, you don't seem to understand how the oil business or OPEC work. "Big Business" doesn't get to just sweep in there. OPEC nations pool their oil and it gets sold. ANd I don't quite understand how cheap oil means more money for the oil companies....ON TOPIC ALERT! I know we're all anxious for the movie to come out, but why would someone ruin the surprises and watch specials, like the one that was on the other night? I meant to tape it to watch later, but I've waited a year for this flick, I don't want my first view of this thing to be on a television set. I think my reaction to those shots would be a secon'd pleasure followed by regret that I wasn't going to have my first look be on the big screen.
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I don't know where you get your information, but Palestinians have a much larger arsenal than rocks: machine guns (many coutesy of Israel during the "peace" treaty), lethal bombs filled with nails and shrapnel, and even missle launchers.
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Anyone who follows even a couple of reports of fighting between Israeli's and Palestinians would know that the Palestinians have automatic machine guns, various other weapons, explosives, and those rocks???? Well if you know your history of the region, they aren't just tossing pebbles. They use a little invention called a "sling" that is popular in that region. Those slings can toss a rock far enough and hard enough to kill animals, people, etc. And McCormic.... read a book, learn to spell. you'll feel better.
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QUOTE: "Tomten and Virkku: You can say foreigners know more about international politics than the average AMerican, but I'd like to see you prove it--just being against Administration policy don't make you a deep thinker, and asserting your patronizing attitude toward the people of the nation where thousands of people from other countries come for their education ain't proff, my friend." RE: I have never claimed any of these things, so why are you mentioning my name? QUOTE: "As for the US hurting a lot of Muslims, are you referring to those we saved with our military intervention in the Gulf War (them Kuwaitis sure weren't Jewish), the Baltics (an almost total botch by Bill Clinton, resulting in horrible civilian casualties, which also helped stop the fighting)and our millions of dollars of foreign aid? These things are part of "foreign policy", eh?" RE: Yes, they are. Just like the examples I gave are parts of foreign policy. So what did you prove? I have never claimed USA or Bush to be "evil". Only some of your acts can be considered as bad. QUOTE: Accusing me of "black and white" thinking is an old, old tactic, much like your superior attitude toward this little burg called America--where are the greys in YOUR view of 9-11 as being caused by the US? Saying I don't want to find out what was behind 9-11 is a real straw man--I don't see things your way, so I guess I don't want to know The Truth. Right." RE: Again I haven't claimed that you refuse to see the "truth". I haven't stated anywhere that I feel "superior" ro USA. Where are my grays in stating that foreign policy caused 9/11? I have never said that USA is "guilty" of 9/11. I have said that the terrorists acted against USA because of a reasons which felt morally justified to them. We all have to think WHY they felt it justified, and this reason has all to with USA interfering things in foreing countries. This doesn't mean that they are right (I don't think they are) or that they are "evil" (which they are not). As for B/W thinking, you constantly assume I have said things I haven't said or that I think in a way I don't think. You also include me in the same "group" as Tomten even if we have nothing to do with each other. This is artificial "us vs. them" thinking which doesn't have any base on reality and can be considered as black and white thinking. QUOTE: "As for the causes, I don't recall US foreign policy coming up in the rich boy bin Laden's rationale except for the part about the US being in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War--the US was invited there, and only religious bigotry causes this hatred, that evil Christians were allowed so close to Mecca. (I guess if Jerry Falwell flew a plane into a Mosque because dirty Muslims were allowed in America, you'd say "Well, they had it coming."" RE: I'm not entirely familiar with personal motivations of Bin Laden, but I doubt he hates USA simply because "Evil Christians" were temporarily too close to Mecca. Don't you think you are over-simplifying the situation a bit? For example don't you think that the Israel situation is a more reasonable motivation for hatred? Of course it's only a part of the entire motivation.
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QUOTE: "By the way, they DO hate us for our freedom. These are religious psychopaths, who despise that we are a nation that is The Great Satan. Look at pre-attack Afghanistan, run by the Taliban--destroying artworks, killing women in soccer fields, forcing women from schools, etc." RE: If they hate you for your freedom, why didn't they try to destroy the symbol of your freedon (The statue of liberty), but instead they wanted to destroy the symbols of your military and financial power (Pentagon and WTC)? They didn't pick those targets randomly, you know. They wanted to make a point. QUOTE: "THAT is the world these "freedom fighters" want, folks, and saying this is some romantic battle of "little people" (yeah, Osama is from da street, bros) vs. eeeevil George Bush. As George Orwell pointed out about people who wanted Britain to stay out of WW2, if you're against those trying to stop the evil bastards out there, you're HELPING the evil bastards. This does NOT mean you can't disagree with the Bush administration--all I ever hear nowadays are anti-war people complaining they aren't being heard--when are they not being heard??? They don't like protesting and then have others counter their protests--most of the protesters are used to their campus protests, among people who think the way they do. What the anti-war peeps want is for the rest of us to shut up and let them have the stage. That's as wrong as Ashcroft and Cheney claiming critics of the Administration are anti-American. ON TOPIC ALERT!" RE: Personally I'm not against Iraq war. I'm neutral, since the war *might* have good result in the long term, but it also *might* have bad results in the long term. However, there are reasonable, logical arguments against this war and it's silly to make B/W generalizations about the anti-war people, just like it's silly to make such generalizations about the pro-war people. What I find sad is the simple-minded, pretentiois approach to these complex issues that Bush has taken in media. Why not to just be honest about it? Say openly all the potential good and bad effects that might come out of it. Realize that the people on the opposite side are not "evil" and they are not trying to destroy your "freedom". There can be reasonable reasons to go to war even without living in a B/W comic book world. I hope that Bush doesn't really believe the stuff he says, hopefully it's just a publicity stunt to brainwash people.
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Not all Palasteans are terrorists. And not all the people that the Isreali army kills are terrorsts, as evedenced by yesterdays attack on the refugie encampment. Missle attacks that target unarmed cevilans have a way of bringing men to arms. (This notion of targeting of civilians is based on many imparshal eye witness accounts, in both this encounter and many many others.) Unfortunatly many Palastinans embrace the consept of eye for an eye. If they can kill our civilians in unprovoked attacks, we can kill theirs. Make no mistake. This is a terror war, with both sides hands dripping with innocent blood. The diffrence is one side has overwelmingly high powered weapons, (ie, Apachie helicopters, tanks. Rocks don't do much aganst tanks.) because of our suport. Isreal is running an apartid state, suppored by US tax dollors.
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Am I special?
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No one said that every Palestinian is a terrorist or that there have not been many civilian casulties. However, you should be aware that terrorists very deliberately hide among civilians so that kind-hearted folks ike yourself can condemn those bloodthirsty Israelis who try to get them. And as for being an 'apartid'[sic] state, I don't think most Israelis feel comfortable making it easy for potential terrorists to live next door. When the violence goes away, perhaps you may have a point. And please use spellcheck.
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I don't know how else to say that other then what has been in the reports and newspaper articals I have read. For instance, the refuge camp. They stomed the camp with tanks and helicopters and according the eye witnesses, began shooting at random. Near by mosks began using their loud speakers to throw up a call to arms, but before a shot was fired in return, two weamon where dead. Its a terror war. I don't know what else I can say.
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Dec 07, 2002 8:13:15 PM CST
I like the way I spell. Why don't you try spelling things incor
by mccormic
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You can hate Israel as much as you like (although I strongly suggest that you read the Israeli p.o.v. as well, not just wherever you are getting your 'facts')but ask yourself -- why would a professional army, defending a country waging a public relations battle for world sympathy, start firing at random just for the hell of it?
End itz sientificly pruven that gud spelers get mo respict. -
No offence, sparkdog, but please... First off: "the Baltics"?!? Well, I wasn't aware of the US having a major military campaign in Estonia. Hmm... Some more georgraphy lessons, please. ***And for the record: I oppose what GWB is doing right now. I'm not opposed to getting Saddam the hell out of there, but using fake reasons to do it (oh yeah, he could have WoMD, he may have terrorist connections... let's forget the fact that the US's little faves Saudi Arabia have a horrible human rights record, have much stronger connections to terrorist organisations, especially Al-Qaeda, and were recently caught carrying out spy activities in the US). The White House should just admit that they hate Saddam and want him out of there. Stop trying to come up with excuses. Otherwise, (if the reason was human rights or WoMD) they would've attacked long ago. It's the same with Afganistan. Human rights groups of all kinds were asking foreign powers, including the US, to interfere for years. The US did nothing about the sorry state of human and women's rights in the area. But then comes 9/11 and all of a sudden the US is really concerned about Afganistan and in addition to taking out the terrorists they want to "liberate the opressed people" of Afganistan. Oh please, if you cared about that you would've gone in ages ago. ***And I am somewhat opposed to taking Saddam out now, since there's no credible alternative. If the White House had given more aid to the Iraqi resistance groups when they were at the height of their popularity and were ready to take Saddam out without causing too much destabilisation in the area instead of abandoning them when Saddam's troops came close, I would've supported it way more than going in there now when there's no more resistance or credible other leaders left. Now, the only alternative to Saddam are a couple of poseurs who will probably end up being just as bad as Saddam is, and who will be treated by everyone in the area as US puppets and lap-dogs, thus adding to instability, violence and US-bashing in the area, which will probably lead to Iraqi civil war (heck, Afganistan is still unstable as hell) and more terrorist activity because of "US manipulation" in the area. Sorry, but acting without thinking about the long-term consequences will only come back and bite you in the ass (as the arming of the Afgans and Saddam have come back to haunt the US).
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The reason they can get away with their end of the genocide is because of people like you, with all due respect. People who only listen to the slanted view of the US media. People who are too quick to see things in black and white, us vrs. them. This is, by the way, not the first highly suspect move the Isreali army has made in this war. This isn't something that's just started. Isreal is murdering Palastinans and giving utterly luticris justification for it, in this case saying that they where going in to arrest one man. Funny then that they didn't bring a police vehical capable of transporting a prisoner. It is these justifications only these justifications that get played in our media. I can give you other examples, if you want them. "It is a poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word", Andrew Jackson
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McCormic: how do you know what sources (and how many) I get my news from? If Israel is practicing "genocide", why are healthy Palestinian babies being born in Israeli hospitals at a greater rate than Jewish ones? How do you know that the army didn't bring a vehicle with them? Do you think the militiamen (*not* kids)would let the soldiers just waltz in and take him? And finally, do you know anything about Israeli society itself, or do you just read what the foreign press "reports" about it?
But your spelling does seem to have improved a bit... -
I just got back to the office from being home with sore throat/laryngitis, or I'd have noticed your post and thanked you sooner. You're probably gone on to other talkbacks, but in case you're still here, I really DO appreciate your kind words. (And tried to tell you so privately, but my e-mail bounced back.)
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I assume you get your sorces from the American news because it is the American news, and, it would seem, only the American news that isn't also presenting the Palastinan side of things. And unless you are mearly ignoring that other side, it would seem clear that you are only getting your information from the nightly news, absolutly no personal insult intended. Either that or you have some sort of overwelming information that I don't know about, which dosn't seem very likely as you are unable to reputeate the facts that I have presented to you, and are questioning wheather they are indeed facts. All I am doing here is regurgitating peices from news sorces outside of the US coperate media. But hey! I could be wrong about you. So, what are your sorces? I think your Israel vrs. Jewish hospital statement is misworded. I think you ment Palestinian hospitals. I can only point to the fact that the Jews are in a much better posistion to provide helth care the Palastinans, most of whom are now living in refugie camps because of being unfairly forced from their homes. I am under the impreshion that Jewish doctors have taken the Hypocratic Oath, just as Palistinan doctors have. Doctors arn't at the heart of this though. The report indicatated that 5 tanks and 2 helocopters broke into the compound. Its always possable that they would have sent in from a armored vehical I suppose, but it dosn't change the fact that two weamon where killed before the fighting began. It also dosn't change that fact that the Palastins where incredably out gunned in this incounter. My forgen press "reports" are, again, from the BBC, which is arguably the most trusted news agency on the plaint. I honistly don't care about Israli socioty any more then I care about Palastinan socioty. Right now they are both engaged in a genocidal war and therefore I oppose them both. The only diffrence is that one side is armed and armored by the US, and that is not right. I have a say in my government and will keep rasing an infernal noise about this untill it is changed.
My spelling is still none of your consurn. -
Actually, I think the American ("corporate owned") media tries to be "even handed" -
see www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mideast/
www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/mideast/html/framesource_mideast.html
What troubles you is that it provides Israel's side at all, since that country is obviously in the wrong 100% of the time. I rarely watch the nightly news, since it's basically orchestrated showbiz and soundbites. When I have viewed it, I do notice the sympathy they display to grieving Palestinian relatives of casulties, kids with stones etc. And just because the sources you "regurgatate" are not from the corporate media, doesn't make them correct. I usually read Israeli websites, including the anti-occupation left of center Haaretzdaily.com as well as other sites ike guardian.co.uk, which is even less sympathetic to Israel than the BBC. My questioning the account of the attack is based on logic -- why would the Israeli army just start shooting wildly everywhere without any provocation? Was the BBC reporter there are was s/he just repeating the official Palestinian Authority account?
I brought up the hospital issue since you used the word "genocide" ("the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group"). Bringing more Palestinians into the world doesn't sound like genocide to me. The Hippocratic Oath didn't stop German doctors from from participating in mass murder.
One last thought -- if you could, would you try to prevent arms from coming to the Palestinian militias?
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I don't understand. You say you read the Guardain and yet you say the US media is even handed here? Did you hear about things like the Israli army using a fleat of bulldosers to demolish intire Palastinan naborhoods while the people where still in their homes? Did you hear about Isreali soldures mudering -suppected- terrorists in the streets? I didn't hear about these things from our coperatly owned media. I'll I've seen is a glossing over and dismisive attidued paid to the Palastinan posistion, often times negleticting, or bending the facts. But I don't think you understand me. I do sympithise with the Isreali people. These are people who can't even get on a bus to go to work without worring about getting blown up. I understand that. It dosn't bother me at all that their side is shown. Their pain is ligitamet. What bothers me is how little Isreali atrositys are looked at, and, more then that, how little the US's roll in this conflict is explored. The BBC report interviewed refuges in the camp. The only offical report was from the Isreali army which was recycling American rederic with such prases as "pre-emptive strike." With everything I have seen here in this confict, I don't think that the word genocide is unwarented. There is a deep hatred here that either side feels about one another. Each is, in a very real way, trying to exterminate the other. That is not to say that every person on either side is going to feel that, and doctors, it is good to hear, least of all. As far as why the Isreali army would attack, the answer is symple. This has become something like a gang war. Your blow up a bus? We'll blow up your nabourhood. You blow up our market? Well shoot you dead in the middle of the night. Hey! They where supsected terrorists and we have to be alowed to defend ourselves. No, I wouldn't be happy with just one side being disarmed here. Both sides are tremdusly gulity. Both sides need to be made to lay down their arms and come to the peace table. I'm confused as to why someone who has all the facts here, can't see this.
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I said that the mainstream US media (corporate owned and otherwise) in their 'mind' makes an effort to appear "evenhanded" and even provided a few URLs to look up. Why exactly large corporations (which do a great deal of business with the Arab word should be exclusively pro-Israel is something you must explain).
And I've heard about the home demolitions -- call me a naive sucker or a liar, but I sti believe that the Israelis didn't know people were in them. And as for executing terrorists in the street -- he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
If you sympathize with the Israeli people, perhaps you can understand why the vast majority of them support the actions of their government. If true "genocide" realy was being practiced, there would be no Paestinians left by now -- we're not talking about a huge population to begin with. Feel free to disarm Israel while disarming everyone else in the area. However, those who call for an end to aid to Israel either 1. blame Israel exclusively for the conflict and see the rest of the Middle East as peace loving people, 2. want to see Israel destroyed or 3. both. As long as there are armed nations (Syria, Iraq) and militias (Hamas etc.) pledging Israel's destruction, the atter has every right to arm themselves.
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I don't understand exactly what your posistion is about the US media. I am confused about your wording. As for why the US media is fuzzing over the facts, I don't know if I have a quick answer there. But you and I both know they are. Did you hear about these home demoltions from the US media? That is an important bit of news, and it at very very best bliped. . . I think that prehaps, for what ever personal reason, your having difficulty looking at the Israeli's as co-culprits here. You need to understand that the people excuted are -SUSPECTED- terrorist. Killing an unarmed man exuction stile in the street, is at very least an act of war aganst the Palastinan people. I am desperatly looking for the peice of photo jurnalisum I saw on this excution. I think it will change your mind, but I have to find it first. I sympatise with the people, but I cannot understand any mentality which would have innocent people die on either side. I have never said Isreal was alone in needing to be disarmed, quite to the contrary. There are a number of countrys in the reagon in desperate need of. . . a bitch slap to the face. . . sorry. I'll shove that one back in. I know you are not correct in your caricterization of those who wish to see an end to military aid to Isreal because I'm on the inside of that movement. I can't speak for everyone, but the vast vast majority of people on my side view this conflict the exact same way I do, and, what's more, they are far better informed then I am. I don't argue against the consept of a country needing to arm itself against possable attack. I argue aganst a country using its arms to destroy non-combatints. I thought that was clear.
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Dec 11, 2002 9:54:19 PM CST
Untill I am able to find the photo jurnisium I'm looking for, th
by mccormic
http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine52.html
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http://www.adbusters.org/home/israel/
They have the pictures here small. . . but they still speak volumes. -
In fact, he's down to his underwear before he's shot. Strange this.
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The Jenin operation took place after a series of suicide bombings culminating with one at a communal Passover meal at a hotel. I'm not happy about what happenened in Jenin, but if it was deemed necessary to invade the area, so be it -- I doubt the decision was made lightly. And please don't use Michael Hoffman's site as a source -- his archived articles: "The Enslavement of Whites in Early America and Industrial Britain" "World War Two Revisionism [i.e. Holocaust denial]" "The Talmud and Judaism" and "Christ or Judeo-Churchianity?" speaks volumes about where he is coming from.
As for the photo of the execution of Mahmoud Salah, allow me to quote from a message posted somewhere below those photos:
"I'm a 23-year-old Israeli and a big fan of your work at Adbusters. I saw your piece about the execution of a Palestinian. I know exactly what happened there ,a close friend of mine was at the scene, and that story is causing great controversy in Israel right now. Tthe man who was killed WAS a terrorist wearing an explosive belt. The soldiers were given orders not to kill him unless he posed a direct threat to them. Finally the order came in to kill the man because he was seconds away from exploding. This is the controversial part - was he an immediate threat to the soldiers or not. You'll be glad to know that the officer who gave the order is about to stand trial. Israeli soldiers are not killers. I too was a soldier and if you knew me you would have seen that this notion is just crazy. 23 of our men where killed during our operation in the West Bank, those lives could have been saved if we had no consideration for the Palestinian people, we would bomb the city from afar with missiles, like the USA did in Iraq! I realize it's not "cool" to support an army, but please do some research and straighten this out.
atomheart79"
Also, please look into the ownership of the European press and media. I suspect much of it is just as "corporate-owned" as that in the U.S. -- the ony difference being that they dislike Israel a lot more.
Good luck on disarming all the world's belligerent powers. As a favor to me, could you start with Iraq, Iran, Syria, Hamas and Islamic Jihad? Once that's done, many Israelis will gladly beat their M16s into plowshares.
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I don't know who Michael Hoffman is. I gave you that site because of the compelling peices of photo jurnalisum presented on it. If I had known his anti-symitic views I wouldn't have given you the page. However, you cannot help but be moved by the pictures presented on it. They are by their nature, unbiased. How can you not be moved by images of men being hearded up aganst walls and shot??? The posted comment is controctary to the images presented. The man is not wearing his belt when he is shot, this is quite clear in picture #4.
By way of counterpunch I offer another peice from that site:
Clarity of conscience causes some Israeli soldiers to refuse service in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
"Suddenly you are asked to do things that should not be asked of you." Everyone knows this feeling, this moment of decision between obedience and refusal. For Lt. David Zonshein, the stakes were unusually high. He was being asked by the Israeli army to shoot human beings, to destroy houses in which there might be living people.
Zonshein refused, and the reserve combat soldier helped draft a statement of objection to military service in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. As of late May, 462 reservists in the Israeli Defense Forces have signed the document and now refuse to serve beyond the borders of Israel as set in 1967. They will no longer participate in the occupation of contested areas that are home to over three million Palestinian Arabs.
"How can a man say -
I just don't know about you. You have all the facts. You've seen objectionable actions and yet you keep beliveing. I don't understand. At very very least you know that people have been unfairly forced from their homes. And that is at very least an act of horrable agreshion. I don't get you. You see behond reason to me.
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. . . why was it not removed from where he could reach it? After all they had enuff control over the man to be able to remove ever artical of clothing he was wearing. If his belt was a bomb and that bomb was in the prosses of being activated then what was that camra man doing standing in the shot. There is no way any photojurnalist would be that dedicated. If his belt was a bomb that he was activating then why dose he apeare to be handcuffed? And here's the kicker. If his belt was a bomb, then why did the Isreali's lie about when they shot him? Yeah, I take it back. I think you are gullable. Peace out, I'm done with this argument.
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I checked the photo of the militants crouching against the wall and another photo of a body being carried away. Since all I have by way of context description is Hoffman's commentary, I still have no idea what really happened. You might be interested that the Israelis recently apprehended Mahmud Muhammad Mahmud Amro, the murderer of one year old Shalhevet Pas. He was not shot, nor will he be executed. For all any of us know, he may he be set free one day as part of a prisoner exchange. "I have all the facts" -- do either of us? For some reason you seem to believe that "even-handed=anti-Israel". Sometimes the truth is not 100% favorable to either party. I do know about Yesh Gvul. Similar sentiments led to Israel's hasty withdrawal from southern Lebanon which is now manned by Hezbollah, which has since kidnapped three Israei soldiers, fired missles into northern Israel, and has made numerous threats as well. Finally, if Salah, is wearing no belt, what is the robot removing? Perhaps you are an expert in explosives and can tell, I'm not.
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