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Herc's Seen BUFFY 7.7!!

Buffy 7.7 FAQ

What’s it called?

“Conversations With Dead People.”

Who’s responsible?

Teleplay is credited to perhaps the two best “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” writers not named “Joss Whedon”: Jane Espenson (“Same Time, Same Place”) and Drew Goddard (“Selfless”).

What does TV Guide say?

“In a jarring episode filled with returning characters, Buffy, Dawn and Willow encounter deceased people from their pasts. While out on patrol, Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) squares off with a former classmate and current vampire (Jonathan M. Woodward), who goads her into revealing her insecurities. Back at home, Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) is thrown into a panic when an invisible force trashes the Summers' house and deposits the corpse of her mother (Kristine Sutherland) on the sofa. Meanwhile, nerdy villains Jonathan and Andrew (Danny Strong, Tom Lenk) return from Mexico.”

Ew! Is Joyce all Griffin Dunne from “American Werewolf in London”?

Joyce takes many forms this week, and I guess you could argue that’s one of them.

What is TV Guide not telling us?

It fails to mention both Adam Busch (who played doomed Nerd of Doom Warren) and Azura Skye (who played doomed psychic girl Cassie Newton a few episodes ago in “Help”) both guest star this week. Also? Buffy, Willow and Dawn do not interact with each other, or with any of the regulars. And the Nerds share no scenes with any of the girls. It’s one odd episode.

The big news?

This episode is devoid of Xander and Anya. Plus? Spike is seen repeatedly, but not heard, not even once.

The bigger news?

Buffy expresses real regret for her shabby treatment of Spike while the two were an item. “My best friends don't even - you'd laugh if you heard some of the things I've done to them,” she confesses to her prey. “The last guy I was with got really... I behaved like a monster. Treated him like...”

I heard Willow talks to Tara, but I also read Joss Whedon said Amber Benson wouldn’t be back. So who plays Tara?

Azura Skye, back from the dead, speaks for Tara. (Begging the question: Would Amber Benson be appearing this week if her talent agent and the studio had come to terms?)

Is it true, as rumored, Morphy is back this week and manipulating Spike?

Morphy is back this week. He likely continues to manipulate Spike, but we see no specific evidence of it this week.

Is it true, as rumored, Spike is siring vampires to attack Buffy?

This will remain, at least this week and in Herc’s view, purely heresay. And when Morphy lurks about, who can trust their own eyes?

What are the surviving Nerds of Doom up to?

Jonathan has hatched a plan to gain the surviving Nerds admittance into the Scooby Gang. That's right: he wants them to rejoin the forces of good.

Is it true, as rumored, that Andrew takes to wearing a Spike-esque leather duster?

Not this week he doesn’t.

Is it true, as rumored, that Andrew kills Jonathan?

That would be telling.

Any news on Spike’s condition?

Well, again, James Marsters is dialogue-free this week, but there are hints that Spike continues to not babble insanely.

Any sign of Giles?


Any hooded figures this week? Slayers-in-training?


But they’ll be back, won’t they?

This I swear. And don't be surprised if one takes a liking to Will!

What’s good?

The goofily self-deluded expression on Dawnie's face when she repositions the houseplant. The regret in Buffy's voice when she confesses, "Because I'm gonna win." Jonathan M. Woodward, wherever they found him, was a great choice to play the vamp who chats Buffy up; it’s a tricky role as he’s a bloodthirsty killer who’s also somehow an engaging and charismatic student of psychology at Dartmouth. The stuff with Dawn is genuinely scary and creepy and disturbing; viewers may particularly marvel at one shot of Dawn early in the second act, a seamless and jarring marriage of camera tilt and digital effects sorcery. There's a great final shot of Jonathan. And it’s neat to have Azura Skye back so soon; though I think most of us would have preferred Amber Benson, Skye makes a swell foil for Alyson Hannigan.

What’s not so good?

While it's easy enough to appreciate all the superior artistry at work, it's also pretty easy to sense a lot that rings kinda false. Dawn is too quick to take an axe to the family's not-inexpensive electronics - and too quick to believe mom's come calling. Buffy is too quick to be civil and trusting with the monster who was moments earlier trying to throttle her to death. And Herc can't bring himself to fret much about Spike this week. Inviso-text on: The guy has a chip and a soul. Are we seriously meant to believe that's the real him? On a closing note, "Conversations" is undeniably teeming with wit, but for Mr. Strong's money, no true knee-slapper. With Espenson and Goddard behind the word processor, Herc may have been expecting something a few notches higher on the guffaw-o-meter. But, of course, Herc's a spoiled little princess.

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

“Oh, not it. Me.”

Herc’s rating for “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” 7.7?


The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

  • ***** better than we deserve
  • **** better than most motion pictures
  • *** actually worth your valuable time
  • ** as horrible as most stuff on TV
  • * makes you quietly pray for bulletins

8 p.m. Tuesday. UPN.

I am – Hercules!!

To order boxer shorts adorned with the image of a green, differently abled “Buffy” fanatic, click here.

Readers Talkback
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  • Nov. 11, 2002, 7:12 a.m. CST

    amber benson

    by FatXander

    does anyone else think if they can't have amber benson playing tara they should have just forgone her involvment? casey speaking for her makes little to no sense. seems like a cop out to me.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 7:14 a.m. CST

    one more thing

    by FatXander

    now you little bitches can't come in and claim first. Ha Ha

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 7:21 a.m. CST

    Sounds like a cool episode...

    by Rick McCallum

    Hoping this will be a good one. The whole idea of Joyce's corpse being dumped in the Summers' living room sounds totally fucked up. Is Marti going to write any episode this season? Crossing fingers hoping that she will not....

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 7:22 a.m. CST

    sounds great

    by cordynharm

    this sounds like a great episode lets just hope we dont get another shot of a vamps reflection's. i'm sick of seeing them, hell in bargaining part 1 and the buffy rape scene in seeing red you can clearly see spikes reflection in the mirror.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 7:28 a.m. CST

    No Xander and Anya -- yay!

    by Rick McCallum

    I have found them progressively annoying. They're like that couple you know who go through their stupid relationship drama and drag down all their friends around them. That's Xander and Anya. I figured that since Emma Caulfield said this would be her last season on the show, regardless of whether it goes on for another season, it would have been cool for Buffy to have killed her in "Selfless." This would have created a rift between Buffy and Xander. Xander needs to be punched in the balls a few more times. Spike may have been evil, but Xander has always (and continues to be) an insecure asshole, who deserves his bitch-boy lot in life.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 7:50 a.m. CST

    Marti is writing episode 10

    by allnamesaretaken

    its called Bring on the Night.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 7:53 a.m. CST

    Oh, well, FUCK...

    by Rick McCallum

    Then in all likelihood everything that is being carefully built/repaired this season will be torn apart in Episode 10 by Marti "witty" Noxon.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:19 a.m. CST

    great season so far...

    by closthebuffyfan

    This sounds like a another great ep. this week. I am really looking forward to this season unfolding, it's going great so far. I do however agree with a previous poster, that without Amber Benson, there really is no reason to have brought Tara back. Although it might make sense once I actually see it.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:36 a.m. CST

    re: Marti

    by shameless

    Man, another anti-Marti person. Heh, you'd think I'd be used to seeing that kind of shit, but it still pisses me off every time! Marti is a great writer, nuff said. Look at her track record, there's probably 3 or 4 bad episodes out of 22. My maths really isn't all that good, but I know 4/22 means a nice low percentage on the suck-o-meter. Anyway, this episode sounds kinda potentially great. I'm thinking it'll either fail dismally or be really creepy... I guess the director will seal its fate.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:55 a.m. CST

    But does Dawn share any scenes with HOTPANTS?

    by Gellar's Ass

    Seriously, if they kill off Jonathan I'll go apeshit. **** In other news, Buffy has been kicking Angel's ass this season.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 9:18 a.m. CST


    by RogueScribner

    Learn from my mistake, people. DO NOT READ THE WILDFEED!!! This episode has one of those OMIGOD endings. I can't believe I ruined myself. GRR! ARGH! Stay ignorant and revel in the surprise! I think I'm going to write a book called "Confessions of a Spoiler Whore". I seriously need help. Ha Ha. SHIT! L8r

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 9:39 a.m. CST

    re:marti, and dead johnathan

    by FatXander

    First, marti is a damn fine writer. I've been watching the first 3 seasons with my girlfriend and i've noticed how many of the best episodes are martie eps. yeah, her season 6 offerings where a bit anti-male, but remember two things, one: men are assholes to women in our society, marti was just a bit militant on it and two: it's a female lead show! thier showing thier trials, and often their right on, we just hate admiting it as men. i think it's a little early to write her off just yet. look through her history, i guarantee you'll change your mind. Also, please kill johnathan, his use has past. and that way we dont' have listen to faith/johnathan people either. that may be the worst idea EVER.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Rogue's Warning

    by AngelTash

    ... makes me want to read it more. Can I wait until tomorrow night? I don't know... I can. No I can't! <breathe> Yes, I can. I was fine until you said not to...

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 10:34 a.m. CST


    by RogueScribner

    I'm only trying to spread the word. I can't make you NOT read it. :) But if you have the will power, stay away. Far, far away. This ep is best viewed with untainted eyes, methinks. I'll say this much, though. Remember the end of "Lessons", how OMIGOD that was? This is even worse. Hold on a sec. ::thump:thump:thump:: There, I'm done hammering nails into my head. I need flogged for spoiling myself, for not letting ME take me on the ride they wanted me to. Damn me and weakness for spoilers. :sigh: - - - - - - - - - - RE: Marti and S6 Considering all the female characters were made victims last season and all the males were oppressors, I'm wary of Marti's take on the male-female relationship. Could Buffy literally busting Warren's balls in "Seeing Red" have been any more overt? BUFFY sank to a whole new low last season, and here we are 7 episodes in to the new season still picking up the pieces. L8r

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 12:41 p.m. CST

    Morphy's Back!

    by joshuaonenine

    Yay! It's about time! Spike is better this season than he was last season.He has become one of my favorite characters off of Buff:TVS!

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 1:50 p.m. CST

    Amber Benson

    by GypsyTRobot

    would have been cool taking a turn as Morphy. In Season 6 she was becoming everyone's favorite lap to fall into when the emotional going got tough. Thus it would be especially cruel for Morphy to take on Tara's appearance and taunt the Scoobs. Amusing-yet-cruel scenario: Willow is taken in by Morphy looking like Tara, tries to get some Tara sugar and Morphy gives her a lap full of Warren (or Adam, the Mayor or the Master) instead.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 6:41 p.m. CST

    I haven't been to a salon in months

    by chickenmonkey

    It's about time for a wingy/pedi. About Tara: does anybody know the real skinny on why our favorite lesbotron won't be making an appearance? The news story from a couple weeks back really didn't illuminate. Is it money? Time? Loss of faith that her character would be put to good use? But I will say again ('cause usually I save the funny til after the ep's aired and none of you wankers stick around for it) that showing Morphy embodied by lesbionic Tara would make the prophecy "From beneath you it devours" kinda licky icky. Lord knows I didn't need to see her levitating during OMWF: "You make me cumpleeeeeet...." Wonder if Aly gave her hubby Alexis pointers for his big scene with Lilah. And I wonder also if there were musical instruments involved...

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 6:43 p.m. CST

    To some this is a 3 1/2 star episode...

    by Bob X others (including myself) a complex and gripping masterpiece worthy of at least 4 1/2. Herc should probably rethink his rating for "The Body" - that one wasn't so "funny" either. Sorry for sounding bitter, but I've just been floored twice. First by the incredible episode and then by Hercs rating (even though he will probably reconsider).

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:02 p.m. CST

    GypsyTRobot, godrefla, Qwerty Uiop, SYSTEM MAINTENANCE, Others..

    by chickenmonkey

    Gypsy: I vote for Adam, 'cause who knows WHAT the mads put down there... ***** godrefla: Nice article, thanks for the referral. And no, I didn't get to go to the conference -- my job these last few weeks kept me here in the states. I got roped into living in a room with an infinite number of actual monkeys and typewriters. We're ghostwriting for J.J. Abrams (sorry about that Supes script -- we're still working on it -- half of them wanted Lois to be from Krypton, too) and the pay ain't nearly enough to go gallavanting off to jolly old England for a naked Spike clip. (Although...) ***** Qwerty: What's up with your fan club, huh? I haven't gotten my commemorative doily yet, did you get my money order? ***** SYSTEM MAINTENANCE: Glad to see you're off the Fox Programming Executive's Calendar and back in non-random mode. Now hurry the fuck up! My nails are already dry... ***** Others: I apologize, not all of you are wankers. Some of you are spankers. And I know which are which. Mm-hmm.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:34 p.m. CST


    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    I agree completely. There was nothing metaphorical about anything in S6. My feeling is that if Jane Epsenson had been in charge, S6 would have been executed more as the flip side of S2. It would have exhibited a similar darkness. Except where S2 was "romantic" (Buffy and Angel) Jane's S6 might have been played as a more "twisted" (Buffy and Spike) but balanced with a sense of "mechanical whimsy" which Jane seems to have a good knack for. She probably would have handled Warren better too, since she was the one, after all, who introduced the character, and perhaps even created him. One gets this feeling that Joss knows he picked the wrong writer to lead S6, when he's asked about this touchy matter. It wasn't what happened in S6 that was the problem. It was how all of it was played out and its overall tone. The theme was supposed to have been "oh grow up" but in the end it felt like "men are all rapists; girls like Buffy are dumb sluts."

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:45 p.m. CST

    Herc are you crazy?????This episode is freakin brilliant!!!!

    by DawnsHott

    I saw the ep and then read your review. When I saw 3 1/2 stars I almost shit myself! This episode deserves at least 4 1/2 stars. The writing is brilliant, the editing is awesome, the pacing is perfect, this episode is truly a masterpiece, definitly the best episode of Season 7 so far. Just because an episode isnt hilarious does not mean it isnt worthy of 4 1/2 stars. This episode was truly a brilliant episode, and I hope you change the rating. Actually, keep it at 3 1/2. That way when people see the ep, they'll be expecting "Him" standards and theyll be blown away at how good this episode is.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:50 p.m. CST

    I agree Marti changed the Tone and feeling of the show

    by warlock411

    It was almost like she wanted us to dislike all the the gang. S6 felt forced , you said bitter tone and I agree, it felt as if Marti dislikes Buffy,Spike,Xander,Willow and wanted to hurt them. The story felt unnatural and did not flow the way S1-S4 did.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:53 p.m. CST

    Question ? In what order do you care for the gang

    by warlock411

    From most to last my list is Spike, Giles, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Dawn.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 8:55 p.m. CST

    This is a 4.5 Star Episode

    by Hamlet3145

    I just watched it and it was great--totally sets up the rest of the season. And just wait till you hear what someone tells Dawn near the end of the Episode!

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 9:13 p.m. CST

    Adding more fire to the Marti vs. Jane thing...

    by Rick McCallum

    Don't quote me on this, but wasn't Riley's first appearance written by Marti? Is it true that she was instrumental in creating the character? Marti's Riley and Jane's Warren...there is a very interesting dichotomy there, since Marti was in charge of last season and the dominant antagonistic presence was Warren, a creation that was perhaps Jane's. I thought I read somewhere a long while back that Jane originally envisioned Warren's descent into evil being more in line with Lex Luthor's. Supposedly, she saw him as Lex Luthor to Buffy's Superman, where Lex's origins are tied to Supes and he blames Superman for his lousy lot in life. Is this true? That would have made a fuckload more sense -- Warren blaming Buffy for his fucked-up life, for his girlfriend leaving him -- and opened the possibility for interesting plot developments. This would have tied in more with the theme of growing up, and particularly the entire Legion of Doom analogy. Didn't anybody else notice that these two ideas went to shit toward the end of last season, and were all but forgotten?

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 10:58 p.m. CST

    The Poem of Prophecy: Skipping Toward Gommorrah v3.1415...

    by chickenmonkey

    From a certain point of view we all see. This poem sucks so majorly. It's obviously not about about tempo and rhythm. Or the intelligent discourse that goes with'em. Be mindful of this evil loon. He nurses on a used tampoon. (Sorry, instant hypocrite.) bwstarwars is behind this tripe, I fear. He gives a bad name to those who are queer. Under his tongue too much acid has gone. Once, through his behind, he smoked a bong. The poet who called himself the authoritah. Will cause all us TB'ers to withdraw. It's bad enough the server's so slow. Now we have to put up with this suck-ass schmo. Just what kind of evil is he... Slouching in front of his mom's PC? The last shall be first and the first shall be last. (Oh wait, that was SYSTEM MAINTENANCE. Blast.) I don't even have the heart to finish it. Changing his bad poetry into worse is shit. Can't even think up something clever. Brain shut down like when I saw Ecks vs. Sever. Yeah. It's that bad. Where's my lodine?

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 11:19 p.m. CST


    by gusteroid

    Did anybody else notice that Spike didn't appear to have neurological issues when he bit the blond?????

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 11:22 p.m. CST

    Barry Woodward

    by chickenmonkey

    I'm man enough to admit that I'm jealous you got on the Buffy set and met Drew, Michelle, etc. (If you are being real), but I must emphatically state that I do not care for your poetry. I did like it the first time, but this reposting of version .5, .6, .whatever has got to stop. If you want to write a brand-fucking-new poem and post it, fine. But you're basically spamming us with this cold rehash, kid. It's old. It's tired. Kill it.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 11:40 p.m. CST

    It better be Andrew who dies, not Jonathan

    by Drath

    Because the Scoobies need a guy like him anyway! With Willow holding back, Anya no longer mystical, and Giles gone the Scoobies NEED a guy with Jonathan's magical expertise. And frankly, letting Andrew kill him would be such a huge injustice to this ongoing character. It's long over due he become a memeber of the Scooby Gang. Kill him off and receive our wrath, fool!

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 11:41 p.m. CST


    by Qwerty Uiop

    "Qwerty: What's up with your fan club, huh? I haven't gotten my commemorative doily yet, did you get my money order?" Ah.... No, I didn't... please resend...

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 11:50 p.m. CST

    Hey Barry Woodward

    by Qwerty Uiop

    You know who'd love your poems? Chicks, my man, go try it out on some, they'll love it. Then you'll be gettin' laid and shit and you won't have to come back here anymore. It'll be great. Trust me.

  • Nov. 11, 2002, 11:52 p.m. CST

    "From Beneath You It Devours" --> "Not It, Me"

    by Vaebn

    Does this mean we finally figure out who 'It' is? I imagine that the last line is in response to the prophecy... I can just picture 'Mommy Dearest' saying something like 'you're all going to die, the world will be swallowed' and Dawn saying, in a hushed, awed whisper, "From Beneath You It Devours" and mommy dearest responding with "NOT IT, ME." And that ends the episode. OOOOOOOOOOOOH.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 12:26 a.m. CST

    the poetry and review coax journal..

    by SkiffyPup

    ::::EYEROLL::::********* Lets just keep it to Buffy talkback from now on, shall we?** I read the wildfeed, and I agree it should not be read. I also agree that Tara should not appear at all unless Amber shows. That said, her agent is a fool if he thinks not coming back to Buffy whenever its offered is a good idea!**** Don't hold yer breath waiting for your client to get her own show/ starring role in a movie! This character is her claim2fame.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 1:13 a.m. CST

    the last line

    by punto

    I wonder if Tara was supposed to say that last line.. That would have been sexy. Anyway, after watching the ep. and reading that interview with Wanda the other week, it's kinda ovbious (and a pitty) why she didn't came back.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 1:23 a.m. CST

    gusteroid--did you just give away the ending of this ep???

    by Lily Drop

    If so, damn you! I know there are spoilers here, but I was trying to stay spoiler-free for the ending! Learn me not to look at the TBs until after an episode airs... [grumble grumble]

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 1:54 a.m. CST

    The negative talkbacker rap

    by Feudal Fetus

    Finally bw, you write a poem I like. If only it didn't describe me so well.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 2:32 a.m. CST


    by thezeppo

    Anyone know who is the artist and what is the song that played as the ep started? mucm 'preciated

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 4:16 a.m. CST

    heres a poem for ya

    by Bored Man

    bwstarwars suck my dick/your a prick/and while your at it give my balls...a lick

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 4:18 a.m. CST

    Why can't it be spike?

    by SG7

    Who says the victims are real? I certinaly hope it is becuase anything else is a cop-out. Also, as to Dawn falling for "mom." She's a self doubting highschool kid who needs guidance. It made perfect sense to me. Predicto meter: the big bad is Satan. Deception and misdirection are his tools. Turn Spike evil eliminates an ally for Buffy. Get Willow to stop using her power eliminates a powerfull ally for Buffy. It's all about eliminating Buffy's support system and allies. Get Dawn to mistrust Buffy and cause her to fail at a critical moment. It's all pretty up front.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:15 a.m. CST

    buffy 7.7-

    by sn435

    Saw this episode last night and thought it was great - a wonderful and ominous setup for what is to come. (Just so everyone knows, I'm about to make comments that are spoilers). I don't agree with Herc's comment that this is obviously not Spike. I agree that is a strong possibility, but I also think it's more likely that it is Spike. He is probably being controlled by the Big Bad - after all, he was down in that basement a long time, and there is no other way to explain why his chip doesn't stop him - but he may also be going along with it. After all, having a soul did not prevent Andrew from committing murder. Re: Amber Benson: I'm still hoping that she may make an appearance as Tara late in the season. As I understand it, her negotiations to appear as another recurring character fell through, but why should that stop her reappearing, briefly, as Tara?

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:59 a.m. CST

    Ah, the laughter

    by GypsyTRobot

    For some reason the coaxial TB's, Buffy especially, get really serious and convoluted instead of reaching the laffriot proportions of another Superman script TB. This TB is certainly a welcome anomaly. Thanks everyone for almost making me pee my pants this morning. Chickenmonkey, in case you missed my post in a previous TB: you are COMEDY GOLD. Don't ever stop posting!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:45 a.m. CST


    by Billy the horn

    Who cares if she's coming back. Most people hated her when she was on the show. A year ago this time people were screaming for her to be killed off, anyone remember that? Perhaps not, most of you seem to be only concerned with bad poetry and fat jokes now.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:56 a.m. CST

    usa today gave this episode 4 stars out of 4,re:tara

    by allnamesaretaken they said this episode was a classic. Re:Tara,Amber Benson was supposed to appear in this episode as the first evil,she would be doing the part that Cassie was doing,tormenting Willow,Amber Benson actually turned down the role,because she has respect for her fans and they would be crushed if she went through with the part.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 2:05 p.m. CST

    it is not satan

    by allnamesaretaken

    Satan does not exist in the buffyverse,just like theres no Angels and more than one god,more than one hell dimension. Morphy is The First Evil from Amends in season 3,that was 4 years ago,Spike said in Lessons 'A 4 year old could figure it out' thats what he was talking about. The First Evil is probaly not the only big bad though. and Spike did turn Buffy's friend into a vampire,he killed the girl in the episode,he doesn't know he did it though,he's possessed by The First Evil,thats why he's been so quiet lately,he probaly started killing when Buffy took him out of the basement. He was guarding the seal that Andrew is going to open in tonight's episode.(Jonathon is the sacrifice to open the seal.)

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 2:43 p.m. CST


    by FatXander

    God damnit, warn people before you ruin the whole fucking episode!! great, might as well go read the wildfeed now. inconsiderate bastards. OH, and BW, i'm sure you realted to the vamp tonight. and I'm an elderly dutch woman.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 3:01 p.m. CST

    I'm with FatXander

    by brother_seamus

    WTF? Please please pleeeeease stop putting spoilers in the TBs! Oh, and omit the crappy poems too while you're at it.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 3:36 p.m. CST

    Why? (Don't Read If You Haven't Seen It)

    by Stranger87

    Why did they kill him off. Why. He's gotta to come back. After all the stuff he says, they gotta bring him back. He talks about redemption, and how sorry he is, and then he just dies.Out of nowhere, they decide to kill him off, even though he's a fan favorite.They can't do it. He's one of the only characters i can still stand. Hes one of my favorite characters, and they just kill him off. I hope it is Buffy's last season now, if their gonna kill off the best characters, it might as well end.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Spoilers in the TB

    by ArchDiver

    Guys, this TB is to discuss the spoilers Herc has posted in this article. If you want to wax poetic about your masturbatory fantasies while remaining spoiler-free, I suggest you wait to visit the site until you see the episode or find another forum to "get your Buffy off." **** BTW, I am really excited about this ep, and I don't believe it's Spike siring vamps. This season is about confusion and distorting reality. Morphy is playing a slick shell game to throw everyone off. Mark my words. AD out

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 3:45 p.m. CST

    Stranger (spoiler)

    by Billythehorn

    When has death ever stopped anyone from coming back? I agree though it would be a shame if he is gone for good. But, I thought that about other characters that I don't notice are gone anymore.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 4:18 p.m. CST

    Well said, ArchDiver

    by SkiffyPup

    You rock!**** As for the rhyming fanboys of talkback... Flames that rhyme are still flames./// So, exchange your e-mail addresses, and have your little pissing contest out of our sight! You are gaining no respect here.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    An Open Letter To Barry Woodward

    by chickenmonkey

    I went to Barry Woodward's links courtesy of godrefla hoping for some good ammo for next time he posts his little poems. But you know what? That little graph on his Hypermatch profile kind of got to me. Here's a guy who's been looking for acceptance, who wears his heart on his sleeve, who is open, honest, and above all: optimistic. It's that kind of blind optimism that leads one to repost rough drafts of borderline-plagiarism fanboy poetry ad nauseum until somebody finally gets it. Well, Barry, I get it. I used to be you. Not to sound like an old pro (I've only been on AICN TalkBacks for two months), but I've posted my share of lame fanboy stuff in the hopes that someone might appreciate it. Hell, I once copy/pasted the entire Yeats poem into a post, simply because I'd thought noone else had made he connection. Silly me. There are some smart cookies out here in TalkBackLand, and once some of them showed me the ropes, I started feeling right at home. Now, I'm not saying "CONFORM CONFORM -- Make every other line be a witty jab at Marti Noxon or a fat joke about Angel!" No, diversity is expected and appreciated in this family of TB. Where else could a chicken with a monkey head coexist with a giant purple robot head-on-a-hose that regulates a spaceship's higher functions? But if you're getting "subtle hints" from your fellow family members that you should lay off the poetry slam and save it for some other forum, I'd take heed if I were you. It wouldn't take much for anyone to organize an angry mob that'll ask the system admin to toss you out of town, buddy. I guess it wouldn't be the first time either, since you were banned from Episode-X forum after only 4 posts. See how nice we've been so far in comparison? So please, Barry. If you absolutely must post poetry on this site, limit yourself to ONE poem per article -- and think about it hard, first. Come up with something creative and new -- DON'T REMIX YEATS OR WHEDON. That's doing basically the same as when I pooped all over your poem which was itself a poop of Yeats. And DON'T POST THE SAME SHIT OVER AND OVER WITH MINOR CHANGES. I for one think poetry is anathema to TalkBacks, but others may disagree. Diff'rent strokes and all that. But if you don't want to find yourself banned from yet another forum, I suggest you restrain yourself. Because I think I DO speak for everyone when I say that we all see a little of ourselves in your fanatic fanboy antics. And when you're rhymes are lame, you bring us all great shame. Consider this your final polite warning. Oh yeah, and don't post spoilers in your TalkBacks, either; unless you want a broken broom handle in your man-hymen. Damn fuckers.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 7:52 p.m. CST

    Okay. Never Fucking Mind.

    by chickenmonkey

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 8:05 p.m. CST

    That song... was it...

    by coop

    That song at the beginning sounded like something Joss would write. Anybody know?

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 8:24 p.m. CST

    Goddamn it.

    by Mr Smartypants

    As an English person I feel entitled to say, in my nancy-boy Mary Poppins accent, that Andrew is a PONCE, a useless prancing lightweight that should not have got to kill Jonathon. Who's going to star in The Matrix Reloaded now?!?

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 8:26 p.m. CST

    Oh, and "bwstarwars"

    by Mr Smartypants

    For the love of God, give it a rest with that shite poem. If you're that proud of it, stick it to your fridge or something..

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 8:30 p.m. CST

    QUIT with the lame ass poems!!!

    by Dink88

    No one reads them and no one cares about 'em. They are just a waste of good webspace. Jump off a tall building please.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 8:37 p.m. CST


    by SamBluestone

    I just realized something: I really, really, really, really, really hate Dawn. The anchovies song and the crossbow scene actually made me physically ill.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 8:47 p.m. CST

    Bit of a digression - too scared to post this on the appropriate

    by Mr Smartypants

    I. liked. Episode 2. (sorry) OK bring on the lynch mob...

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 8:58 p.m. CST


    by Daireen

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:01 p.m. CST

    I agree with Bob X!!!

    by dp4m

    Holy schnamoly!!! That was an awesome ep... WAY more than 3.5 stars. Just... wow...

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:02 p.m. CST


    by Daireen

    ACK!! JONATHAN!! NOOOOOOOO!!!! I am SO depressed now. He was the fringe boy, there from the beginning, hell the 4th ep, I think. Dammit. I am VERY upset. Plus side: Offhand, I think Cassie was better than Tara would've been. She's got more of that creepy girl vibe. (And yeah, what's with "next week on buffy" previews being so damn perky and cutesy all the freakin time?)

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:03 p.m. CST


    by LordWeymont

    I got the fucking shivering feelings running down my spine after seeing that episode...anyone who thinks Buffy is dead can lick my nuts becuse that ep. ROCKED. the party that rocks the body!!!!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:03 p.m. CST

    Holy Crap!

    by Skanky_Tony

    Now that was an EXCELLENT show! There are so many clues as to what will happen, and the way they are speaking is making it seem that this will be the final season. Joyce said that Buffy will go against Dawn or something like that... This ep was freaky!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:04 p.m. CST

    Oh my God....

    by thewoodpecker

    Wow. One of the busiest, jam packed, simly insane episodes of Buffy ever. I'm still shaking. West Coasters: you are in for the ride of your life. The dialoge was great, and the Vamp shrink was incredible. I would love quote dialoge, but I wouldn't want to ruin anything. This episode was one constant mind-fuck after the other. I'll be back at 12am NY time to yap further. Prepare to have your ass whupped? Harry, you could not begin to compare. Wow.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:04 p.m. CST

    5 stars

    by jerkstore

    The first truly great episode in almost 2 seasons.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:06 p.m. CST

    Is there a rating higher than 5 stars?

    by kobayashi

    If so, this one deserves it. WOW. My chin was on the floor... One of the best episodes EVER.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:06 p.m. CST

    ...and another thing.

    by Skanky_Tony

    I too hate the previews UPN is doing for Buffy. After this dark ep they make the next episode seem like a fluffy ep, even though it won't be. I thought this ep was going to be funny after seeing the previews. Also.....Buffy better get a nod at an emmy award or whatever the awards are called. This season has some great episodes!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:07 p.m. CST


    by Drath

    They killed Jonathan! How fucking dare they! I hate them for this! Those fucking sadists shits! GODFUCKINGDAMNITALLTOFUCKINGHELL!!!!!! AND they killed the likably evil Vamp psychiatrist, AND they made Spike iredeemably evil again! FUCK them for this! I hate you whoever is responsible for this--and that includes you, Joss! Damn it!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:10 p.m. CST

    what it aaaaaall means (maybe)

    by Daireen

    Joyce saying Buffy will turn against people follows with psych vamp telling Buffy she is in fact all alone, with no one to count on (I paraphrase, of course), so I betcha Buffy will go nutso at the end, bringing in Faith.. I think the whole Willow will use magic and kill everyone thing was just the Mighty Morphin Power Villain messing with her. Good call. heh.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:16 p.m. CST

    Spooky. Whacky. Did I mention spooky?

    by daffyclan

    Why in all that is anything on God's green earth for Pete's sake was that NOT the Halloween episode??!! How much crack do you have to smoke to NOT put this episode at the time when everyone does a really poor job of trying to be spooky. I think this will be my favorite thing ever to watch on Halloween night. Especially if it's windy and tornado-y. I believe the "fake Spike" theory. The real Spike hasn't shown up since he burned himself on the cross. Jonathan's not gone forever. The end of the season will bring back to life anyone who died and is missed, like that episode of Dallas (am I dating myself with that one?). Tara should stay gone. I love Amber Benson, but Willow's struggle needs to be Tara-less. And why was Xander left out of this episode? Couldn't the guy pirate-guy from high school have haunted him? And one last question: There have been advertisements where Dawn was breathing fire. When does Dawn breathe fire? Do we get to see it? I WANNA SEE DAWN BREATHING FIRE!!!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:17 p.m. CST

    references to previous episode

    by kobayashi

    I am loving how they keep bringing up the past - The 'Scott Hope' bit cracked me up. On top of that we get: 'Stong like an Amazon', 'Mom, Mom, Mommy', Joyce's pose on the couch, Jonathan, Warren, and the whole Buffy talk. Man, the writing in this episode deserves some recognition... it was so tightly woven into the whole Buffy lore. And the dialog - priceless! Warren's, "Well, no, he IS our last hope" line was a killer...

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:21 p.m. CST


    by RenoNevada2000

    I don't think that was Spike tonight. I think it was another aspect of Mighty Morphin' Power Baddie. Come to think of it, I think that all the appirations tonight where aspects of ol' Morphy, just sitting up all sorts of havoc...

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:23 p.m. CST

    7 for 7

    by Anyawatcher

    ME is definatly going out with a bang. get the season 7 DVD out asap. Great F'N episode. Everyone was great in it, esp. Dawn. She was awesome. And that can't be Spike making vamps. It's Morphy. Seems like Morphy is pulling a Yoko Factor. trying to get them to think they are against eachother. Probably cuz Morphy knows a combo of Buffy, Spike, Willow, and Dawn will kick his ass. can't wait to watch it again.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:24 p.m. CST

    Oh, and one more thing...

    by kobayashi

    I think that not having Amber Bensen made the Willow scenes much, much better than they would have been otherwise. Not that I dislike A.B., but having Tara talk thru Cassie just gave it an emotional punch that it wouldn't have had if Tara would've been sitting there. My heart sank when 'Cassie' explained why Willow could'nt talk to Tara directly... thats so cruel!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:25 p.m. CST

    whoo that was great

    by carouselambra

    boy i'm spent now! that was a really great episode. it was seriously creepy, seriously funny, seriously intriguing. everything good about the show, really. i liked how simple it was too, in the writing and stories. i don't have the slightest clue what's going on because i remain steadfastly spoiler-free! and i'm loving it! this is the best show at surprising you, from week to week. hell, from commercial to commercial. i urge everyone to stay away from buffy spoilers, it's truly magical WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:26 p.m. CST

    I think I have that same Predicto meter...

    by Melestopheles

    I have to agree... I'm guessin it's Satan himself. Anyone else have that thought as they stayed focused on the large pentagram with the goat's head on it??? As for Spike, we know he can't bite anyone or else his head goes spastic. Hense the close-up on him wiping his smiling lips drenched in the bloodshed. Personally, I'm interested in that thing that was on top of Joyce that Dawn killed. Was it trying to protect her by covering up "Joyce's" voice? All in all... I thought it was apretty good episode. It's getting my brain synapses firing.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:27 p.m. CST

    dawns great

    by narky

    i liked the anchovy song...heh and yeah, this episode was A-W-E-S-O-M-E, possibly even better than Selfless..maybe. I can't believe Herc only gave it 3 and a half. >>I like how it answered some things but left most things up in the air. Like what the whole house fight was about, i dont get it. Unless it wasnt morphy. And how is Buffy gonna pay for all the repairs?? >>Thumbs up for Buffy psychology, inferiority complex about her superiority complex. at least she finally admitted it to herself. >>>>I also kinda liked Cassie filling in for Tara. It actually made more sense, if morphy's intention was to make Willow want to see her more desperately. >>>AND HOW MUCH DID JONATHAN RULE! I was floored when they discussed the Klingon dictionary, cause i actually had a conversation about it with my friend just yesterday. I'm gonna miss him a whole freakin lot. But at least we got this episode out of him. you know they coulda just never had them come back at all ever so who ever complained should stop. It makes sense and if that is where they want the story to go then more power to them.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:28 p.m. CST


    by Anyawatcher

    That wasn't Joyce talking to Dawn. How Faith comes is up in the air but Joyce was all morphy. When is Morphy gonna turn into that clown from "IT"? He's fucking scary. When Cassie showed her teeth It was so like IT. creepy flasback. It's getting harder and harder to pick the best episode of the season.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:33 p.m. CST

    Does anybody know -

    by kobayashi

    Was there any signifigance to having a title on this episode? I dont remember any other episode ever having a title splashed across the screen. And what was up with the "November 12, 8:01pm"? These must have had a deeper meaning? Did they?

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:33 p.m. CST

    Not dead yet

    by Googly

    No way Jonathan's really dead. Leaving someone lying there all limp and lifeless-looking at the end of a scene or episode is the oldest trick in the book - how many times did they fool me with that on Doctor Who? A bazillion, that's how many.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:34 p.m. CST

    How the show will end

    by vampirehd80

    The biggest-bad will be none other than Satan and Dawn will kill Buffy. 'Nuff said.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:35 p.m. CST

    Johnathan...... nooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

    by Melestopheles

    BASTARDS!!!! He's been there since the first season!!!!!! My god, they could have at least let someone believable kill him. But Andrew? The klingon dictonary was probably the heaviest thing he had ever picked up next to that weapon he rammed through Johnathan's gut. That's it. I is pissed now....

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:38 p.m. CST

    Joyce theory

    by daffyclan

    Here's one. Stop me if you've heard it. What if the thing on top of "Joyce" that Dawn "killed" was actually Joyce trying to stop the bad from feeding Dawn bad info. Monumental struggle between a mother's desire to protect her children vs. big bad evil sent to destroy everything good and nice. And how exactly are Dawn and Buffy supposed to get the money to fix up the house this time? are they finally moving out?

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:39 p.m. CST

    time and date

    by Melestopheles

    kobayashi... i noticed that to. granted it's today's date and the time it aires but here's a a theory. It's a great way to determine an alibi. we all know what buffy, dawn, willow and "spike" were doing. lets see if any of them mention there whereabouts later on in the season. could provide some answers to that "spike" thing we saw.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:40 p.m. CST

    Joss on character deaths

    by RenoNevada2000

    Last Friday on NPR's "Fresh Air" they reran an interview they did with Jossback in May 2000. When asked about character deaths on the show he said something along the lines of if he goes online and sees that fans are pissed that a character was killed then he did a good job as a writer. (The interview is available at He must be very happy with how ticked everyone is. The bastard. :)

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:41 p.m. CST

    you know

    by narky

    it is entirely possible that morphy took the chip out of spike's head.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:42 p.m. CST

    I have not yet seen this ep.

    by chickenmonkey

    How loser am I? I'm stuck at work til 11, reading about a kick-ass episode that's still two-and-a-half hours away for me. But I'm going to stay off the spoilers from now on. I realized today that there ain't nuthin' goin' on in these ME TalkBacks pre-show except buzzkill spoilers and must-kill poetry. With a defeated heart, I bid you adieu until tomorrow, and then not again until Wednesday next. I guess I'll be slouching away now... <<sob>>

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:42 p.m. CST

    And P.S.

    by Googly

    3.5 stars is ROBBERY!! As in, "we was robbed!" 4.5 minimum, a half point shaved off only because some of the Buffy/vamp scenes started to drag on a little. Other than that, perfecto. Anyone else think that Mr. Vamp might have been yet another manifestation of Morphy? Cause of the Spike comment. I can recall no evidence of Spikie's chip being out of whack. Yep, could well have been titled "Conversations with Morphy." And yet, remember ep. 7.1 wherein the basement was filled with dead people? (OK not really filled maybe.) I'm thinking Morphy either just has a thang for dead folks or HE IS ACTUALLY MADE UP OF ALL THE EVIL OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO EVER DIED!! Whoa.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:46 p.m. CST


    by RenoNevada2000

    Intriguing thought, i.e- Morphy being made up of all the past evil of people

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:47 p.m. CST

    Time, Date and Title

    by kobayashi

    maybe "November 12, 2002, 8:01" was the time of the Hellmouth opening... Crazy things have gone on tonight...

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:48 p.m. CST

    what to say, what to say...

    by Melestopheles

    I am personally shocked, nay stunned that the accusation that this episode was as low on Herc's point scale as it was. I demand a recount. (I am in FL you know. I can demand that kind of stuff)

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:48 p.m. CST

    BTW, does anyone wonder if Spike will sire Dawn?

    by Drath

    I mean there have been hints something might happen along those lines, and it would explain Joyce's warning, because Buffy will see the need to kill vampire Dawn the same way she was going to kill Anya and, as she pointed out in that episode, the way she killed Angel too. Not sure how Buffy appearing with the Big Bads fits into that though, so Buffy going evil somehow(probably via the old mental ward delusion) seems to be the more likely. Just a thought. Anyway, there is NO FUCKING WAY I will applaud these bastards for an episode where they killed Jonathan---and he was done in by that spaz Andrew no less! Unforgivable bullshit! And don't give me "death doesn't hold 'em back" nonesense. Apart from important players like Buffy, Angel, and Darla no one has been resurrected for real--so unless he's going to be a ghost semi-regular he's gone and that sucks rocks. If he turns up alive next week, saved by the real Spike or principal Wood or something then I'll give them some praise again, otherwise I am sharpening the tailnail clippers and making some voodoo dolls of Marti and Joss and Jane. ********** Fully agree that Cassie worked better than Tara would have in her place. It gives Tara more importance not to be able to see her. It also suggests FE knows Willow would see through a false Tara. Nice work. I really liked the vampire guy, I was disappointed when he died as well. Him AND Jonathan was too much. Kiss your "orbs" goodbye Joss unless you've got a miracle to pull.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:50 p.m. CST

    This was an AWESOME episode!!!!!!!

    by Devylsgoddess

    This was SUCH a COOL ep!!!!!!! I was FREAKING out with the whole Dawn and then the Willow cassie chat, I was laughing at the Buffy-vamp talk.....the only thing missing was Anya and Xander!!!!!!!!! so I just read that about Spike so that WASNT him doing the siring of such........SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO happy about THAT!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:51 p.m. CST

    Answer to Warlock's question:

    by onetrueking

    Spike, Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Anya, Xander, Giles.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:52 p.m. CST

    we DEMAND a recount!!!!!!!!

    by Devylsgoddess

    Im with the other poster...Im in Florida too and this was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better then a 3.5!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:53 p.m. CST

    by Melestopheles

    About that recount... I respectfully decline that demand. Johnathan died at the hands of that pansy-arsed, he wishes it would eat him begining with his bottom Andrew. It got what it deserved. Way to go Herc.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:56 p.m. CST

    by Melestopheles

    I'm changing my mind again. 4 stars. but that's it. (tampa bay is in the house and we STILL get as many re-re-re-re-counts as we demand. It's an EVIL thing... you wouldn't understand... except for maybe devilgoddess)

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:56 p.m. CST

    this was the best ep since "the body"

    by CookieGirl

    This was an amazing ep!! Dawn took care of herself (even if the house got trashed) Spike got some bloodlust (even though it was Morphy, not Spike) Twenty questions were answered while 30 were asked! YEA! Joyce telling Dawn that Buffy would be against her in the The first evil sure knows what he is doing playing them off eachother. This season rocks. I can't wait until next week. I am so happy I didn't read the spoilers!!

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:58 p.m. CST

    episode review

    by onetrueking

    I'd give it 4 stars. The ending really slammed me upside the head. Willow's encounter seems pretty self-explanatory. I'm not really sure what the hell was going on in Dawn's house. And the whole thing with Spike is just way too confusing. He's evil. They give him a chip. He's still pretty evil. They give him a soul. Now he's even more evil so now what? It's going to be a torture for 7 days until next weeks episode.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 9:59 p.m. CST

    Concur - Great Ep!

    by chaingunsofdoom

    I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't watched yet, but I especially liked how we saw each Scooby Gang character dealing with what I thought was each one specific part of the good vs. evil spectrum.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10 p.m. CST

    Here's something to ponder:

    by Melestopheles

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10 p.m. CST

    agreed 3.5 way too low add a star atleast

    by Anyawatcher

    I know people rip gerc when he keeps giving out 4 stars to Whedon's show but this one was awesome. But don't let anyone from Florida do the recount. If they do it will end up as Pat Buchanon writing this eppy and Al Gore as Morphy. give it 4.5

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:04 p.m. CST

    lmao anyawatcher

    by Devylsgoddess

    That is sooooooooo true.....lmao!!!!!!!! I live here Im allowed to laugh.....

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:08 p.m. CST

    no really... i have a brain here somewhere...

    by Melestopheles

    just like me... casting my balot without even making an effort. sorry about that.*****Honestly, this was what I was going to say. At the "previously on BTVS" section, they put in what people need to know. Tonight they showed Spike getting his soul and leaning on the cross, and the "Anya: how did you do it? Spike: i don't know what you're talking about. Anya: No really, I can see it" dialogue. Why do that? They clearly want us to remember these things before showing the episode. But here's the big one... we all know how Spike got his soul, but who was that? If it was just another demon, why didn't Anya know about it? She's been around much longer than Spike. And do demons have the power to give out souls? (do you see where I'm going with this?) I think that whatever gave Spike his soul is the same thing behind albiet IS morphy. "Coincidence? I think not," quoted Jack Palance.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:17 p.m. CST

    Dead People and those who talk to them

    by DyslexicHeart

    On the next Sally Jesse Raphael. OK bad joke. But anyway that was a 4 1/2 star episode. Wonderful atmosphere and a totally different tone than we have seen a long time. It was easily better than the "Spin the Bottle" episode of Angel, which I did like very much. And I am looking forward to Marti's next episode, considering it might be a while before another Joss Buffy ep. Marti absolutely redeemed herself to me with "Villians", not that I disliked her to begin with, I was just repulsed by Season six eps 9-12. This whole competition of which show is going to have the nastier, Bigger Bad is very intriuging.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:17 p.m. CST

    It seemed obvious to me

    by coop

    They were all morphy (even the vamp) they were all there to screw with everyone and as another poster said, create a rift in the group. The fake monster was there to make Joyce seem more real to Dawn, if Dawn didn't have to fight a monster to save her, she would have questioned what she said about Buffy. Morphy was lying to Willow so she wouldn't use her powers to take any threat out of the picture. And the psychology vamp was there to cause Buffy to mistrust Spike. Of course Spike may or may not have been Spike (why fake that? who was watching?), but if it was him, he was under control.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:18 p.m. CST

    Spike's soul...

    by dp4m

    ... after thinking on the ep... do we know FOR A FACT that Spike got HIS soul back? 'cause if it's someone else's soul (or someTHING else's)... whoa boy... I still can't figure out what was real or not in that ep (other than the obvious "not good Cassie")...

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:25 p.m. CST


    by BornAmazing

    This episode necesitates a reordering of my favorite character list... Spike, Anya, DAWN(up 3 spaces), Giles, Buffy, Willow, Xander. I sat for more than a few minutes after the episode ended thinking about the possibilities..and I think I have it all sorted out. BUT Im still up in the air over whether that was actually Joyce..Im leaning towards the theory that it was.At least I hope so... It make for an interesting scenario. If Im not mistaken Joyce said only that Buffy 'wouldnt be there for her' not that she would be all evil crazy. It seems this may set up a possible spinoff of a Buffyless Buffyverse. Also why the date and time stamp at the beginning of the episode..and I missing something obvious? My only thought is that it marks the turning point..Anyone else have thoughts? The demon that little Dawny dispatched was one of the creepiest not seen things ever! Michelle really worked it out tonight and I appreciate Dawn more than ever, and my initial dislike is long gone. The scene was really built around Dawns Terror, Strength and her will. This episode goes up there in the scheme of Buffy in the top 5 and I scoff at anyone who denies this is not one of the best seasons of the show yet. Without danger of a scoff you can disagree when I say that this may be THE best season of Buffy EVER. And therefor possibly the best season of ANYTHING ever, Since quite obviously Buffy is the best show ever to come on television. SO I leave my comments at apologies for any mis spelling as Ive spent the past 3 hours watching Buffy then writing here when I should have been working on the Urban Geography paper I have due in the morning. I just dont have time to proofread. BTW--Definantly a ***** 5 star episode. Now--back to my S&M and Bible study

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:37 p.m. CST

    coop- why Morphy would choose to look like Spike

    by RenoNevada2000

    Two reasons- 1) in case a Scooby accidentally crosses paths of Morphy/Spike seeds of confusion will be sown, 2) To allow any vampires Morphy/Spike/First Evil (?) sires to think that Spike was responsible, so if they are questioned by Buffy spike becomes a suspect...

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:41 p.m. CST

    Great Episode

    by quim

    I am shocked that Herc is downplaying this one. This is easily the greatest episode this season and the best since Normal Again last season. It was the perfect blend of funny and scary, which is Buffy at its best. In fact, to me there have only been three momments of Buffy that have been truly scary and two of them come from this episode: 1. The shot in Hush when Olivia(?) is looking out the window only to see one of the Gentlemen float by inches away. 2. The strobe shot in this episode of a screaming, bleeding Joyce being violated by a demon and 3. The final shot of Cassie/Morphy. The way her smile just seemed to grow until it engulfed her creeped me out. Herc gets so excited over mediocre episodes, his lack of enthusiasum for this one is strange.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:43 p.m. CST

    big bad spoiler

    by allnamesaretaken

    Vamped out Spike was not morphy,it was Spike,you'll find out how he could bite without pain next week and why he's siring vampires.(up until now Spike hasn't been one to sire people,he had Dru as a companion so no reason to sire anyone,just eat them.) The Big Bad is the First Evil from Amends,The First Evil can not take corporel form,it can not physically touch people,so the vampire that Buffy was fighting was not morphy and Vamped out Spike was not morphy. If Morphy could touch people,it would kill them all itself,not manipulate others into doing its dirty work.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:46 p.m. CST

    obvious and subtle

    by ReesRacer

    lots of stuff going on here. was that really spike? hell yes it was. no motive for morphy to be slinking around in bars only to kill some chick on her patio. buffy finding out about spike siring psych/vamp would have been enough already. perhaps the trip to africa restored his soul AND removed the chip (never really bought into the headache after impaling snake-boy anyway). did i miss something? ****** love the generally high-quality writing, again, that has been fairly consistent this year, but i didn't really buy into the lack of persuasive power morphy had on willow. what a waste of time if its intent was to get willow to not use magic or kill herself. the fact that willow saw through it does not diminish the fact that it was a shiity argument in the first place. ****** interesting stuff in the newly demolished casa del summers. monster or joyce or who was trying to protect whom there? not sure which camp i'm in yet. ******* liked the reference to the yoko factor in an earlier post. definitely thinking the same thing, but also reminded me a bit of OMwF in that talking to the dead were devices for our heroes to talk about things they obviously can't discuss with each other. emphasizes the solitude we bring on ourselves, like the vamp said. sad to see jonathan's demise (?), but great dramatic effect to be sure.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:55 p.m. CST

    good points Reno but...

    by coop

    it didn't look like Spike was doing any siring tonight. He was feeding and she looked pretty dead. I tend to think it was Spike and somehow morphy is tricking him.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 10:59 p.m. CST

    Someone Watching Dawn?

    by Ortega

    Question - In the beginning of the episode, after Dawn fires the crossbow into the wall, we switch to a "monster cam" type thing outside the window, seemingly spying on our little heroine. From whose perspective are we watching? Is this the Big Bad? Doesn't seem to fit to me... Is someone (something) else spying on her before things get all creepy? Or is this just a device to get us to feel a little dread?

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:08 p.m. CST

    The Good, the Bad and the Dawn

    by ArchDiver

    Good- The vamp shrink was truly inspired. "I see your in pain, and I'm actually enjoying it, cuz, I am evil." Bad- Dawn screaming again. Arrgh. But Dawn took a serious ass-whoopin to cast out the allegedly evil spirit to talk to the alleged Joyce. What a shit message to get. And I'm leaning to every dead person was MMBB. This season is about confusion and subterfuge. Nothing should be taken at face value. Everything will be placed on its ear this year. (DAMN! bwstarwars is contagious!) AD out

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:10 p.m. CST

    Buffy IS Satan You Clods

    by Mr. Smegma

    Remember? Cast out of heaven? A fallen angel? Feels superior to not just men, but man? And why are we so sure that the siring Spike is Morphy? That's a helluva power for some being, not just LOOK like something but take on all their attributes. Vamping is what makes vampires unique. You're telling me there's stuff out there that can vamp right along too? That's big damn jump in the Buffyverse. Why do we have vampires if their signature aspect can be so easily duplicated? No, that has Spike I'd wager. Maybe vamping is saving these folks from something even worse, ergo it works with the soulness. Good is evil and evil is good. Like Joey Ramone said, my brain is hanging upside down.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:20 p.m. CST

    One Amazing episode!!!

    by Vonfolger

    I was on the edge of my seat for the whole thing, I seriously can't wait for next weeks episode. this is the first Buffy episode that really scared the pants off me...The scenes with Joyce were just intense. *Spoiler* I cannot believe that after 7 seasons Johnathan is dead. It really came as a shock to me, I never expected to see Danny Strong laying there dead. Andrew is going to pay bigtime eventually for that one. I was always a big fan of Johnathan it's sad to see him go. Oh well until next week. Oh yeah, do you talkbackers think SPike is going to die this year?

  • geesh, talkback really comes in trends. "It's not Spike, no it WAS Spike," blah blah blah. If Morphy can't take coporial form or hurt people, and that was Morphy haunting Dawn then how was she cut up and flung all over the place? Does morphy have demon henchmen like the devil, or is FE a one-monster act? Oy, it doesn't matter, Jonathan's been killed and Whedon is needing preperation H right about now. ****** I think it was the real Spike only because it's too easy if it's not him. What I want to know is what does he think he's doing? Why did he sire that guy? Why kill the girl tonight? I think the chip DID hurt him when he stabbed worm boy, but he didn't react this time. What's the deal? Is he possessed when he does it, or what? In any even, he's killing people, which makes him a threat that Buffy has to kill. Given how cheaply they did in a beloved character this week, who know what the heartless bitches will do now. ******** I suspect the line about no longer being alone when you die is important. That was sort of what was happening last year when Buffy described "heaven." ******** Coincidentally, I'm tired of people bitching about how wrong it would be to leave room open for religion. In fact Buffy's "nothing solid" comment seemed pretty dumb considering crosses are affecting vampires. It's not what they're made of since wood and stone and metal crosses all burn undead flesh. The cross and what it represents either means something or don't use it. If it's just a symbol of faith that hurts them then why not show other religious symbols(eg the Star of David) having some affect? I don't think it could be any campier than what they normally do. And personally, I don't think it would hurt anything for First Evil to lay claim to the name "The Devil" one time since that figure has been around a lot longer than Christianity and the names of Lucifer and Satan. Tying the First Evil to a vicious evil figure that has existed throughout human history shouldn't be offensive--and if it is, frankly, I think you're looking for an offense. But I know, they've made it clear they don't want the headache of explaining anything specific and Noxon has said they want nondemoninational stuff. So there's not much point. It's their ship to crash. Whatever. But get off the backs of people calling FE the devil. It's their right, and it's not totally inaccurate.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:34 p.m. CST

    why no Xander and Anya

    by Nada Lives

    From a writing stand point, I think these two were left out because they didn't have someone extremely close to them die that Morphy could use to manipulate them. You've got Willow/Tara (through Cassie), Dawn/Joyce, and Andrew/Warren. Buffy's storyline was more to clear her conscience than anything else, and the scenes of Spike compliment those (almost to say that Buffy's actions have driven him to sire vampires - if that really was Spike). And on the Spike note - did anyone else notice that in earlier episodes this season, when he went all vampy he didn't have his vamp teeth? Great episode - one of those, "grab on to something folks, because things are going to get interesting" shows. Some genuinely creepy moments (the Evil Dead eyes were a nice touch), and some honest to goodness laughs ("I've got shin splints") make for one of the best of the year so far.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:56 p.m. CST

    What OUGHT to happen, but probably won't

    by dkmonroe

    Both Buffy and Angel are facing The Ultimate Evil this season. They're both being set up to meet the biggest bad of all. What SHOULD happen is that BOTH series come to an end this year, with both plot lines inexorably lead our heroes deeper and deeper into a deadly, vicious firefight that looks increasingly hopeless, with familiar faces becoming casualties on the way. NONE of this gets resolved at the end of each series. What happens instead.. is.. THE MOVIE! YES! The long-demanded (at least by me) blockbuster theatrical "Buffy" breaks out, reuniting Buffy, Angel, Giles, and whoever else is left alive to finish the job, close the hellmouth, and vanquish the first evil once and for all. At the end of the movie, Angel is laid to rest (peacefully, without being staked, you writers figure it out) in consecrated ground. Buffy becomes a normal human being, as the Slayer's millenia-old mission is complete. She is free to become the normal girl she's always wanted to be. She deserves it. After all, she saved the world. A lot.

  • Nov. 12, 2002, 11:59 p.m. CST

    On a ridiculous note. . .

    by daffyclan

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:03 a.m. CST

    Those Bastards!!

    by RockNRollPaddy

    They killed Jonathan. For what is worth - I found the scene when Jonathan is talking about high school with Andrew very effective and moving. When Jonathan explains how he misses high school and has come to terms with its harshness, leaving within him a positive feeling for those people and things that were associated with it, and Andrew tries to attack him verbally, stating: "well, those people never think about you" -- and Jonathan responds truthfully that it does not matter because he still thinks of them - with a bittersweet but content look on his face as he speaks, it is a profoundly telling moment. Jonathan certainly came a long way from sitting in the high school clocktower with a highpowered rifle looking to shoot himself. It took seven years, but it seems that he finally came to some kind of peace with himself and his place in the world. His character will certainly be missed. ****** As a counterpoint, we have Buffy, I believe, starting to walk a pretty dangerous path, which was hinted at when she delivered the Judge Dredd "I am the law speech" a couple of episodes back. Her belief in her own rightousness, inability to really trust anyone elses judgement - the feeling that she is someone superior - are truly dangerous. When you start believing everyone else is wrong, and you are right - and there is no moral check on your action, it becomes quite easy to justify some fairly evil behavior. A showdown between the Scoobies and Buffy, as has been suggested already, could be forthcoming. Assuming that Giles handles the planning end of things - I have a feeling it would not be one sided fight by any means.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:09 a.m. CST

    On a ridiculous note. . .

    by daffyclan

    Here's what will probably be the most far-fetched and stupid theory ever. But what the hell. I've got some time to kill. What if there really is no "big bad" this season. There's a presumed bad because weird shit is happening, but it's not one of those "end of the world" things. Maybe it's actually something coming out of Spike's conscience, or subconcious even, that's becoming all of the things he's pissed off about, or trying to work past. Willow showed him up on the "big bad" scale, so he's got reason to go after her. He spent time in season 4 trying to separate the gang, so that's maybe coming back. He's got good enough reasons to point out to Buffy that her relationship problems really are all her fault. He resents Dawn because Buffy died to save her, and he was stuck taking care of her, and she doesn't even appreciate it. The trio are convenient scapegoats, even if two of them are dead. Or maybe the Hellmouth is just feeding off him to create the big bad, so he is and isn't at the same time. I love Spike. If he and Buffy aren't going to live happily ever after, I wanna see him kill her good. Truly. Thank you for sharing my insanity momentarily. Let the ridicule begin now.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:10 a.m. CST

    Fuck me and fuck sports

    by MVisco

    First I go and read thru some of the TB's and the wildfeed, ruining the surpirises. Then I go to my TiVo to see, this week's episode won't air till Saturday due to fucking hockey game. Oh shit, now I have to wait to be somewhat surprised. Damn it. Stop coming here me. Moron!

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:13 a.m. CST

    PREDICTION: and are y'all on crack? ITs BUFFY the late seasons

    by SkiffyPup

    Hello? The Stuff will turn on the revelations in this ep. Namely, the guy named by Buffy's Vamp. Psychaitrist who is still in the crazy wing at the hospital ( otherwise, why bring it up during sweeps?) AND the Warren giveaWAY IN THE school, NAMELY, HIS LOCKER COMBINATION: 36-19-27. Otherwise, why give it? I bet these are pivotal. They are Whedonish... in the crucial locales ( and therefore syndication even out of order sense...) and make SENSE in the BUFFYVERSE!*********** Thats the last word.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:16 a.m. CST

    and please forgive my "tyopid mary" action.

    by SkiffyPup

    I have some hand troubles. sorry

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:20 a.m. CST

    Wish it had been Tara to say the last words...

    by Medox

    All I can think of is how much creepier and painful it would have been if Willow had heard Tara, not Cassie (who she never even met), say "Not it, but me." The shock and betrayl on Willow's face, hearing this thing talk from her dearly departed loved one's form, would have killed. I guess I feel a little disappointed that whatever the hell happened with Benson and Whedon prevented this scene from playing out the way it should have. It would have sent chills down my spine. And I'm really starting to see the First Evil as Satan thing. The giant pentacle with goat's head (and it sure looked like the blood of the innocent was neeeded to activate it)and his persona as the "Prince of Lies" (I believe at least some, if not all, of the "apparations" in this episode were not who they appeared to be)are my main reasons. My main question if of Xander and Anya. Just not enough time in this episode, or were they spared for some other reason?Hmmm.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:30 a.m. CST

    Medox and Nada lives

    by thewoodpecker

    I read the the spoilerslayer.comk site that Joss really wanted AB back, but the studio fucked it up. Oh well. As far as Anya not having a close death, what about Halfrek? Shit it was what 3 weeks ago she died? Might have hit a nerve cluster. Anyway, with Spike now Xander's roomie my question now becomes where is Xander to what happend to Xander?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:58 a.m. CST

    Damn UBER episode.....

    by Smugbug

    Cuz it was. Wow. The scenes with Dawn were creepy good. I could barely watch....and Dawn proved the mettle against a very scary, unseen, demon-thing. Yes, having Tara, instead of Cassie may have made a more effective ender...but I digress, Cassie was effective. "Not it, me". Ahhh, creepy goodies. And dammit - they killed Jonathan. "He's our only hope". A human sacrifice to open the Hellmouth perhaps? My only hope for next week's ep is that the Scoobs get together and compare notes on their experiences. Oh, and yes! The Psyche Student Turned Vamp (sorry, forgot the name, but not the 'tude), was PERFECT. This episode definitely had it all. Laughs, witty dialogue, great timing, and horror. The season's looking bright.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:03 a.m. CST


    by Qwerty Uiop

    Hey "fat joke about Angel!" Don't rain on my parade, bitch!

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:12 a.m. CST

    angel is so fat

    by allnamesaretaken

    his lard is getting a spin off 'Lard the ratings slayer'.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:14 a.m. CST

    Pretty good, but

    by Qwerty Uiop

    I'm going to miss the Nerds of Doom, they were my favorite. That episode with the van and the star wars mural and horn. Pure Comedy. I'm wondering if Joyce was even there if the whole thing was a trick of the Evil's to drive a wedge between Dawn and Buffy. How else could Dawn, of all people, drive out the First Evil? I hope Spike goes evil again. This show needs someone making constant fun of the Scoobs. Especially Xander and his love of baked goods...

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:15 a.m. CST

    Wrong Board, man

    by Qwerty Uiop

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:16 a.m. CST


    by Steve57

    If Whedon and Co. are playing this as the last season of BTVS, and we assume that Spike is indeed evil or being manipulated, than isn't it logical to assume that Spike killed Xander? Anya, too. That kind of explains why they were suspiciously absent from tonight's episode. If that was not Spike, then perhaps the whole time thing is an alibi set up and Xander was with Spike. Anywho, great episode, definately the best of the season, and probably the best since OMWF. This seems to be building up to a great season, but I think we all felt the same way at this point last year. I only hope that the ME don't run out of steam in the middle of the season like last year. I still contend that S6 consisted of a bunch of quality episodes with a relatively few mediocre episodes placed in such a manner as to suck the flow of the season out. What made earlier seasons so great IMO (especiall 2,3, and 5 in this regard) was that towards the end, they felt like they were building into something huge. I am beginning to get that feeling back, but I hope I'm not being premature.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:18 a.m. CST

    On this board, its...

    by Qwerty Uiop

    XANDER is so fat, the shadow of his ass weighs 50 pounds.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:20 a.m. CST


    by EDraven

    Is he some type of homo.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:21 a.m. CST


    by Qwerty Uiop

    Are you looking for a date?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:31 a.m. CST

    bad things are a'comin...

    by Darth Lechon

    After watching this ep and "24", I've just completed the two most tension-filled hours of television I've ever experienced. Geez, this BB really knows how to fuck with people, don't he? Or, she? Jsut some ramblings: even though it would have been even freakier to have Tara talking to Willow, Cassie worked out fine. Now that I think about it, if it had been Tara there, Willow wouldn't have been able to talk for a few minutes, and all we would have had to look at would be Alyson Hannigan crying and gasping for air.(j/k) Anyway, everything was incredibly creepy, especially the Dawn stuff. Both her stuff and Willow's stuff were neck-&-neck in the creepy department in my book. Okay, Dawn's was a little scarier with the disappearing-reappearing body. Also, her getting cracked in the mouth. They must have given her about 10 blood pellets for that one. The psycho-analyzing vamp was cool, although, I don't know if Buffy would necessarily turned her back on a vamp she just met. Yeah, the stuff they were talking about could make her drift off, but given that she's been doing this for 7+ years, you'd think she'd have her slayer reflexes on hair-trigger. Overall, a GREAT ep. I think this one will go down as the marquee ep of the first half of the season. Now I know why they had such a goofy ep last week. Kind of a anesthetic/misdirection for the viewers.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:31 a.m. CST

    Was Warren also Morphy?

    by kfahmy

    That was a great ep but I have some questions: 1. Was the "Warren" that Andrew was seeing also Morphy? Can Morphy be at two places at once? 2. Was the Mrs. Summers that Dawn was seeing also Morphy? Or was that dark creature that was destroying the house a version of Morphy? Did Morphy have anything to do with the Dawn subplot. And really, what was that whole Dawn thing?? It sure looked cool, but what did it have to do with anything? 3. Did anyone else find Buffy's inferiority/superiority complex speech a tad stupid? It seems like the writers don't want to allow Buffy to lighten up and enjoy her friends. Why is that? So much of the joy of the show came from the Scooby Gang and how they were a family. Look at the theme of Season 4, about how they needed to come together to fight Adam... I miss that. 4. Why would they have Andrew kill Jonathan? Is Andrew really capable of such a thing? Sure, Warren messed with his mind a little but he always seemed harmless and a kind of a pansy. 5. Did anyone comment on the absolute funniest line: "It eats you from the bottom." Hysterical

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:46 a.m. CST

    A Curious Gesture

    by HDB

    Some sharp-eyed soul check out Spike's "Yum-yum!" shot, the close-up during the closing music montage--at the end, he seems to raise his left hand to the right side of his face, just in front of his ear. If this were _Mission: Impossible_, in any of its incarnations, I'd expect him to rip off a latex disguise. Is some other vamp posing as Spike, leaving a trail of sirelings and victims picked up in public places in front of lots of witnesses to incriminate him? On other subjects, Amber B goading Willow to suicide would have perhaps been the meanest trick ME ever played on us, even if wasn't going to work. I'm almost sorry it didn't happen. I'm liking that Morphy can appear as anyone dead, undead, or returned from the dead, but may need others to do the physical, like frame Spike, kill potential Slayers-to-be, put a _Poltergeist_-style trashing on the House of Chicks and so on. One thing seems certain: this big bad has studied the game films. He has figured out who his enemies are and how to divide and conquer. That has almost been the Scoobies' undoing before. He's doing a fine job of picking the right wedges for the characters featured tonight. What does he use on Xander, Anya, and Giles? Oh, and one other thing--I have a "friend" with a theory that, this being Buffy Year One and all, that hunky principal (who, she insists at his every mention, look like he smells really good) is a Watcher.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 2:25 a.m. CST

    My prediction on whats going on. Let me know what you think,

    by slopreilly

    Here is my predicition. Buffy is not evil yet but soon will be. Here is why I think so: 1. On the season premiere, she was the last vision that morphy morphed into and she was the first person that said to Spike "From Beneath you it devours." 2. Tonights episode she told the vampire shrink that she feels like she is from beneath everyone. 3. She has more and more been deviating on her own path. 4. Momma Summers told Dawn that Buffy would not choose her because she will be on another path. Also this season on Buffy will mirror the season on Angel. Both shows are facing the same big bad. And on that show the gang will turn Angel evil so that he can fight the evil....this brings on the need for Faith to save the day by bringing down that shows hero. She is also going to be called to Buffy to bring down this shows evil hero. The prophecy on Angel says that the only Vampire with a soul will play a part in the apocalypse. I believe that vampire to be Spike. Spike is not evil and yes he did sire the vampires. But this is the reason.... He is creating an army of vampires to help him stop Buffy. This is just my prediction. Anyways...this is shaping up to be the best season of Buffy yet.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 2:54 a.m. CST

    Not the First Evil?

    by DarkZero

    I scanned the talkback to see if anyone else noticed this, but since I haven't seen any mention of it, I thought I'd throw it in. I'm usually not the speculatory type when it comes to Buffy, but I noticed that the "First Evil" in the form of the psychic girl mentioned being fed up with "balancing the scales between good and evil" or something very similar about MAINTAINING A BALANCE between good and evil. That really doesn't seem like an "ultimate evil" kind of comment to me. It actually sounds like a hero talking. Evil tries to conquer the world and spread its evil, but most heroes just end up endlessly pushing evil back in an effort to keep a 50/50 world from becoming 100% evil. --- Rather than being some kind of Satan or "First Evil", which just seems way too obvious to me, I wonder if the Big Bad is actually someone a lot like Buffy, if not some twisted element of Buffy herself. Then again, that description still fits the biblical description of Lucifer, so whatever analogue to Satan that the Buffy writers create could be both a fallen hero AND a mass of pure, overwhelming evil.

  • But anyway, how about this: Morphy is not Evil but THE EARTH. It has teeth. The reason it can take so many forms is because they're all dead and thus BURIED. And hell, even vampires are dusted (from ashes to ashes, dust to dust) so it can use their forms at any time. Everything's connected, except you're alone until you die (or Buffy dies as the case may be). As for the time and date, watch for it on Angel. Serious Apocalyptic shit is going on there next episode (this Sunday) and I bet that time reference will be important as a clever little non-crossover crossover. Who wants to bet that Jonathan's blood will be what calls this Beast that Cordy's seen in a vision/memory? Besides, Morphy as Cassie specifically stated is tired of the whole Good vs Evil bit (something W&H loves, which isn't chaos). I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the shows even more intertwined even though they're seperated so. /// DRATH- key blood and vampirism: it's too big a thing to not explore. ///Is anyone else getting the big chills? I've never ever gotten them this early in a season, with all this big dread hanging over everything. I got it with GD 1&2 and post-Forever S5. Ain't it delicious? For one thing (not to mention this may be the last season), it just makes you nostalgic and winsome every time you watch the opening credits, not to mention makes you feel that much more for all our characters considering the peril they're in. ///And my view: it was all Morphy in the best mindfuck I've ever seen since Keyser Soze, Spike included. For goodness sakes, he was punching out Zach Ty Bryan in Help and getting extreme migraines only 3 eps ago; there are rules and it would be illogical for them to be broken. If anything Morphy as vamp was setting up Buffy to stake Spike out of the picture, hell, he wanted B/S/W all out of the picture, they're that much of a threat.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:18 a.m. CST

    Are Buffy and Angel's arcs tied together this season?

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    Logically, it would seem to be that way. After all, why would they run two Apocalyptic story arcs for both series' current seasons? But who the heck knows -- it seems as if anything is possible at this point. As for what happened in this episode, I'm going to stick to what I call the First Appearances Theory -- what things appear to be is what is actually happening. Furthermore, the simplest explanations tend to lead to complicated consequences. Thus: That really was Joyce and her warning to Dawn was the truth. It really was Spike who sired the woman (as for why and whether he was under the control of some other force, this remains up in the air). And Jonathan is dead -- he's not going to show up in the hospital in the next episode. To say that it wasn't really Joyce would be too complex to explain later on, same thing with Spike. Jonathan not actually having died would probably be seen as cheesy, a cop-out. Yes, it does look like that Buffy is the Ultimate Big Bad. I doubt that the First Evil has a singular, physical form. It's not like he/it/whatever is going to appear as a demonic creature with giant horns. It's a PRESENCE that exists in all forms and throughout the world, and this presence is starting to gather together. Somehow, it's all going to well-up in Buffy. It wants Buffy, it needs her, in order to fulfill its plan.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:20 a.m. CST

    Spike and his chip -- it's still there

    by Executor

    The difference is now, since he has a soul and can differentiate right from wrong, it only hurts when he's trying to HURT humans. When he stabbed the guy with the pole, there was no intention to hurt. He was trying to kill a demon, not a human. When he punched Home Improvement kid, he WAS trying to hurt a human, so it it hurt Spike. So there could be something beneficial he is trying to do by siring the vamps. Which is why it doesn't hurt him.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:43 a.m. CST

    Here's one evidence why it probably really was Joyce...

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    The First Evil or whatever tried to have Dawn leave the house. But Dawn voluntarily stayed. Of course, it could be rationalized that the First Evil knew that Dawn would stay, but I don't think so. Otherwise, why would this same presence think that it could convince Willow to commit suicide? It seems that the First Evil knows the superficial FACTS about the Scoobies, but not necessarily exactly how strong or weak each person's personality and character is.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 6:12 a.m. CST

    Tisk, tisk, tisk...and I had such high hopes for you, Herc

    by SuperXY

    I am surprised Herc didn't mention the "from beneath you it devours" dreams the Nerds were having. After the first commercial, while they are driving in the car they mention that they were tired of the dreams. After some brief Klingon ramblings we hear the English translation of "it eats you starting with your bottom" Now you could just think they are talking about the explosive diarrhea you get in Mexico, but I think that is a little too close. The weird wording is probably just because they translated their dreams from Klingon. Herc must be slipping in his old age.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 6:38 a.m. CST

    good as it gets

    by Freak_of_nature

    ok, that was just awesome. no doubt about it. The lack of AAnya and xander? cool. I used to love anya all the time, but she's been getting kinda not-like-y lately. Never really liked xander. anywho, I'm still crying over that scene in the library;liked the "strong like an amazon" reference.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:28 a.m. CST

    MUSIC and the chip

    by jinX

    MUSIC: Pretty sure that was the band FRENTE doing the music. They had a remake of the song "Bizarre Love Triangle" a while back. CHIP: If Spikes chip was confused by Buffy being returned from the dead and allowed him to hurt her....I bet Spike having a soul back has made it completely inoperable.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:36 a.m. CST

    It eats you from your bottom

    by seanbateman1985

    AWESOME ep. Comment: If there is a hellmouth then there is a hell. If there is a hell, then there is a heaven, if there is a heaven then there is a God. And besides, doesn't Buffy think that she WAS, in fact, in heaven at one point? So what's with the doubting of a supreme being for the good. (IN REGARDS TO THE SHOW,OF COURSE...I AM NOT INTERESTED IN ANY REAL DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS)

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 8:23 a.m. CST

    "Anchovies, anchovies. You're so delicious! I love you more th

    by RogueScribner

    "It eats you starting with your bottom." LOL This ep was more than I could take. I really need to sit on this for a while, but I wanted to come in here and throw out some quick thoughts. - - - - - - - - - - Dawn's thread was creepy cool. She really took a beating! I think she's stronger than she even knows. And yet I have to ask: is taking an axe to a microwave really the smartest thing to do? =) And "Mommy?" Ugh. What a heartwrenching way to go to commercial. - - - - - - - - - - Joyce's dead body on the couch was down right creepy. ::shudders:: Wild thought. Could Joyce communicating through the house have been foreshadowed by Joyce being walled up in "Restless"? Talking through the wall? - - - - - - - - - - Buffy: "I'm beneath them." From beneath you it devours much? Couple that line with Joyce's, "When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you," and you've got some heavy stuff being foreshadowed. Willow may or may not kill her friends. That could have been just a ruse to get Willow to take herself out of the game. So Willow is probably pivotal in stopping the FE (or BB). Buffy is alone. The cheese stands alone. I wear the cheese, it does not wear me. Dawn must prepare for badness and go on her own path. How convenient Xander is seemingly left out of all this portenty goodness. It's not like he matters or anything. - - - - - - - - - - Like I said, it still has to sink in, but I think we can all agree that this ep is the beginning of something. Will "From beneath you I devour!" be the new line? :) L8r

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 8:58 a.m. CST


    by EntropyGirl

    Great episode. My jaw was dropping as the last minutes unfolded. Damn good show. I assumed that Joyce and possibly Spike were the BB as well as Cassie. Cassie and Willows final scenes were chilling. It seemed as if the goal was to weaken the team dynamic but feeding on the scoobies emotional hot buttons. I think Spike was either another BB doppleganger or is working under the influence of the BB. It's been suggested that he is building an army of vamp foot soilders for the inevitable BB showdown that will come later in the season. I am loving this First evil business! Was jonathan 's body on the doorway to the hellmouth? Dude, I love jonathan.Is it just me or is DAWN so much more likable this season. Team Whedon is making her less of a brat. Michelle T. is growing on me after 2 seasons of general " I hate her"

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:01 a.m. CST

    Maybe, just maybe

    by AngelTash

    First of all, I LOVED this episode. Very creepy things going on. I am also surprised that this was not the Halloween episode. **** My initial impression was that FE was manifesting itself to the characters who have power. Willow has magic - take her out of the picture (either get her too scared to do magic because of consequences or to eliminate herself) and you get rid of a powerful foe. Dawn - I'm still not convinced that she doesn't have an important role to play (as the Key) in closing the Hellmouth for good. If you get her to leave Buffy, you no longer have to worry about the Key locking the gateway to hell. I don't think that the psych vamp was a manifestation of the FE. I think that part could have just been about explaining what's going on in Buffy's mind (which, I think has been requested on previous TBs). As far as the NOD, I think that FE was manipulating Andrew (just because he's totally clueless) to spill an innocent's blood on the seal - thereby activating it. BTW, I think we should refer to Andrew as a "Spastard" from here on out (Spaz + Bastard). With Anya and Xander being human and having no special powers, FE probably doesn't see them as a threat - therefore, no creepy visitors. **** Finally, Spike. Perhaps FE is making Spike sire all of these vampires to keep Buffy occupied. That way, she will not be available to stop it from opening the seal and releasing hell on earth. Maybe soul-Spike is in "sleep mode" during his siring. At any rate, I can't wait to see what happens next!

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:13 a.m. CST

    A bad night for heroes; father of lies

    by godric

    Wow, we lost Jonathan here and potentially the great George Mason on 24, all in one night. I hope Andrew gets some major payback. I think the the BB this year is the First, or we could just call it Satan. The Bible says that Satan is an "angel of light" and the "father of lies." The angel of light thing refers to his ability to make something evil look good--to look beautiful and pleasant all the while it's destroying you. I think this is what's happening here: we got four basic scenarios (not including Spikes) and four people buying into lies. I do not believe that was Joyce, but rather the BB's knowledge of how deep the bond was between Dawn and mom (remember, Dawn tried to bring her back from the dead as a zombie), and so pulled this whole haunted psycho house scenario before speaking the lie to her, to make it more convincing; Buffy is believing the lie given to her about Spike; Willow, thankfully, was smart enough to recognize the lie being fed her (though no one has mentioned the one thing we learned here--the BB is afraid of Willow, and wanted to get her out of the picture); and Andrew is believing the lies of the BB Warren, thus killing Jonathan, not realizing that his own destruction will probably follow soon. All built on lies.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:16 a.m. CST


    by Daireen

    I think the reason I'm so cheesed about Jonathan's murder is that there was absolutely no reason for it. Jenny Calendar, you kinda figured something would happen (at least I did). Tara, you saw it coming the moment she & Willow became an item (damn you, Marti!!). Jonathan, however, came back for ONE EP and *poof* got knifed. And this dude's been fringe since ep 1.4! Grr. So cranky. //Mighty Morphin Power Bad(tm): I agree with whomever said this is the biggest mindfuck character of the entire show, cause damn. I also agree with whomever said that having Tara say "Oh not it... Me." would've been even creepier, but I liked Cassie. I almost wonder if in fact Tara COULD have been able to visit Willow, and it was actually FE keeping her away and giving that explanation to Willow to make her guilt-ridden and remorseful (perfect entrance for suicide hints). I also agree (dang, aren't I just the agreeable person today) with the whole "Dude, you were in heaven, how could you NOT have the inside scoop on the Big Good(tm)?" thing. How can the jury be out when you were in the courtroom for 3 months?? Anyhoo. The fallen angel thing with the superiority bent is delightful, and Buffy is SO going to be the BB at the end. In a way, I am kinda curious why they just don't do a series of temporary deaths of the active Slayers to bring more in. Take Faith, stop her heart for about 5 mins, then poof, through the wonders of modern science, she's back to normal and a new Slayer is activated. Then take THAT Slayer... you see my point. I wonder why they stopped after only two Slayer-in-training deaths. Are they returning to that? Giles! Bring back da man! We need his info, his feedback on the big happenings. Doggone it. OK, back to work. Heh.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:18 a.m. CST

    Daireen re:Jonathon

    by allnamesaretaken

    Jonathon was a sacrifice,thats the reason for his death. Plus in a way he's redeemed and at peace.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:21 a.m. CST


    by joshuaonenine

    This was a great episode! The only thing i didnt like is the fact that Jonathan is dead!!! But other than that it was real good. The scences with Willow were pure genius! Excellent!!!! Spike once again did it for me, he was excellent!! Although i dont think that was him who's doing all this siring stuff. Lastly, I also want to give props to both the writers of Angel and Buffy for coming up with some great Big Bads for this season! Morphy from Buffy and the Beast From Angel appear to be great opposition for theboth shows.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:46 a.m. CST


    by Daireen

    I know the plot reason he was killed, I just meant there was no logical reason. Jenny was killed by Angel because she was a threat to him. Tara was killed because we knew it was coming (damn you, Marti!) and it was the final straw that broke Evil Willow's back. It's logical (in a twisted way) because Willow was making progress in her rehab, and.. well.. we can't have a successfully rehabbed witch so close to a finale. ;) With Jonathan (thAn, not thOn), the logic is just out there. Ya have the guy come back for ONE EP just to kill him? Aargh! At least two eps so he can come back, try to get into the gang, they reject him, THEN he goes on the mini-quest of redemption that gets him killed. Ah well. RIP, kid.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:49 a.m. CST

    Spike on a leash

    by Synn

    Morphy could be controlling Spike. It would be rather easy to do in Spike's current condition. All Morphy would need to do is keep Spike in more pain than the implant causes, letting up only when Spike is putting the bite on someone. That way, the pain of the implant would be a relief by comparison. As for Jonathan, I'll miss the character, but killing someone and blocking their attempt to earn redemption seems perfect for a ritual demonic sacrifice. Excellent episode!

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:56 a.m. CST


    by Daireen

    So actually, Morphy is secretly B.F. Skinner? Reverse behavioral conditioning.. That IS evil.. ooOOOoOOOOoooo... heh. Does bring up a good question, though. What's the deal with his chip? It works, it doesn't, is he ignoring it, is he faking it (the pain), is the Mighty Morphin Power Bad(tm) controlling it/him? I'm getting a little confused with the apparent mixed messages.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 10:11 a.m. CST

    Help me Obi Wan, you're my only hope!

    by GypsyTRobot

    So I was the only one who thought Joyce looked a little bit like a Princess Leia hologram?? I thought Joyce was just a Morphy trick. Morphy is trying to sow the seeds of self doubt and divisiveness among the Scoobs. If Joyce just showed up and delivered her unpleasant message while Willow was getting the suicide coaching, Dawn might figure out Joyce was a Morphy trick. However with the Poltergeist crap as a cover, it might make the Joyce stuff seem more believable. Her "ghost" seemed so Star Wars-ish, Morphy must've tailor-made the manifestation to appeal to a teenager. + When Dawn screamed, she was getting really close to "get out GET OUT GET OUUUT!!" ME better watch the thin line between cute Dawn and shrieky/whiney Dawn. + Jonathan, the bell tolls for thee. Goddamm ME for giving us likable recurring characters and then callously killing them off! Andrew is a dead man. Hope he gets eaten by the First Evil. P.S. I smell shades of the Sopranos with having the lead get psychoanalyzed.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 10:24 a.m. CST

    You know what would have been interesting?

    by rev_skarekroe

    Having Xander have a conversation with his old friend that got vamped in the first episode. sk

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 10:30 a.m. CST


    by Braider

    I think ALL of the dead (incl Spike - maybe) were Morphy. Morphy is setting people up to distrust each other. I'm not so sure Johnathan is dead, precisely. I think he'll become part of the hellmouth, and maybe end up saving them all with his last shred of humanity.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 10:32 a.m. CST

    theory on Spike for next week

    by Darth Lechon

    I've got a theory (it could be bunnies...sorry, I digress) on what could be going on with Spike next week. The ep is titled "Sleeper." Spike could be sleep-stalking. He goes to sleep, and then sleepwalks out of Xander's apartment. He's under a lot of stress (ie. his soul), which is one of the major causes of sleepwalking. He meets these people and sires them. All the while, he's still asleep. His brain isn't really functioning on a higher level, so the chip doesn't activate. After he's done, he goes back to Xander's. Sure, you can't really carry on a conversation with another person when you're sleepwalking, but that's where the FE/BB comes in. He takes control of Spike when he starts sleepwalking and has him do all these things. Thoughts? Thayla, I want to hear your opinion.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 10:38 a.m. CST

    Random thoughts, 'cause the White Room

    by 93curr

    is down -yeah, you guys are my SECOND choice. Live with it. (Actualy, third chouce, 'cause I haven't been able to post anything to the Cross + Stake either. Bugger. Oh, well.) Is it any wonder that Spike's gone all homicidal, what with the company he keeps? Seems pretty clear to me that Willow and Anya are a bad influence on him. Wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Xander starts killing any day now. Is it just me, or was having the episode title, date and time on screen the creepiest, scariest part of the show? It just wasn't right. Anbd they wanted us to think that Joyce was part of the evil just a little too much. Mayhap she's the genuine article, methinks. And every fibre of my being is begging that Andrew's line about hoping that Willow kills him comes true. Was I supposed to assume that the room Jonathan got himself sacrificed in was the same one the three bad-guy-thingies from 'Lessons' wanted to keep Buffy away from? And Jonathan's locker combination? Was that just inserted to keep us trying to find secret messages? I suspect that the writers see the audience as a bunch of obsessive nuts with way too much time on our hands. Hey man, got any weed?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 11:50 a.m. CST

    Thoughts on "Conversations."

    by Spidey_88

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:01 p.m. CST

    Thoughts on "Conversations."

    by Spidey_88

    D'oh! Rotten enter key! Anyways onto my stream-of-conscious take of this episode... I have really enjoyed this season so far and this was by far one of the best episodes in a long time. I was severely creeped out by Dawn's haunted house experience and the whole "Mother's Milk Is Red Today" was enough to give me the willies for the rest of the evening. Loved the Klingon translation of "From Beneath You It Devours." My initial thoughts while watching was that Buffy herself may indeed be the big bad this season. Being on a "different path" than Dawn -- if it wasn't Morphy, the feeling "beneath" and yet superior to everyone else. I see that of the other TBers seem to have gotten the same impression. I did like Cassie's standing in for Tara though. If it couldn't be AB herself, Cassie was a good choice. (Although isn't it funny how everyone complained that they hated Tara and yet we all felt her presence would've made this ep doubly disturbing?) I'm not so sure that Willow would've even thought about the suicide thing if it had been Tara. It's too unlike Tara to suggest such a thing. Since Willow never met Cassie, it may have been easier for her to believe some of the things she was saying. As for Spike - if that was indeed Spike - would it be possible for him to vamp someone without major migraines if he was psychotic enough to not know it was wrong? Just a thought...

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:04 p.m. CST

    TB Order

    by AngelTash

    Why did my "Maybe, just maybe" post get put near the top and everyone else is still showing up in order? Maybe I don't want an answer to that.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:50 p.m. CST

    November 12 8:01

    by breet

    Simple...November 12, 8:01...its a something.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:53 p.m. CST

    Great Talk Back!!!

    by GPL Racer

    I just want to say that reading this talk back today has been almost as much fun as watching the show.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 12:57 p.m. CST

    the date/time thing in the opening

    by Anyawatcher

    The date, time, title thing reminded me of when I used to watch the West Wing. They always do that. Maybe it's a lil' dig at WW or a way to confuse Emmy voters for when they put up Best Show they remember the title. Since Emmy voters are dummies, some of them may get confuse with the Buffy opening and all those stupid ass WW episodes and put Conversations with Dead People up for an Emmy.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:27 p.m. CST

    Darth Lechon & stuff

    by Thalya

    It sounds like a strong hypothesis to me, but really I have no general clue on that since all I really know about next week is the title (just the way it needs to be). /// As for some other thoughts: 1) I have to smirk to say the least at how much we all hated Jonathan getting offed. This guy was a bit recurring character and look how much we all grew to love him. Darn you ME! You cause us pain in the most twisted way possible! (and Joss's immediate response is naturally "Thank you!".) 2) Here's another bit in the argument for why Joyce was nothing but Morphy. Morphy-as-Holden-Webster-vamp was deliberately keeping Buffy from Dawn, keeping her talking and vulnerable and keeping her away from the fallen cell phone. Buffy could have been home in minutes after her sweep if she had just offed the vamp in the first place, but no, Morphy wanted not just to deliver that message to Dawn and drive a wedge in, but also to test her. Look at Dawn's last cast-out line or two: "I cast you out with the strength of every God (or sth, but something religious pertaining to good Gods)" (nothing), "I cast you out with the strength of those who love me" (very telling right there, but also nothing), "I cast you out with all the strength inside of me!" (BINGO!). 3) Something I can't remember: were Jonathan and Andrew in the teaser? I'm going to go check for clocks or references to time in their bits when I get home, but what if Jonathan died right at 8:01 and thus set everything off?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:30 p.m. CST

    So what part does Wood play in all of this?

    by Lily Drop

    I don't think anyone's mentioned him (forgive me if I'm wrong, I skimmed some messages). I think he's a key player, due to the fact that he seems all mysterious and his office is right above the Hellmouth. So what part does he play? Good? Bad? A neutral, balancing force? ---------------- Great episode. Really makes one think. This new writer is amazing, he writes these characters as well as Joss does. What a find! Too bad he's only been on board for this season.------------------ I think the date/time stamp was used so that we understood that all of these events were happening at once. Let's say Morphy can only be in one place at once. The question then becomes, what were the other dead things real? If not, what were they? -----------Thalya, LOVE the theory that the Morphy is the Earth.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Herc made a huge mistake

    by Rude_Kaiser

    I can't believe you gave this episode only 31/2 stars. This was the best episode of the season. My mind was so twisted after watching; I had to watch again when 24 went off. The writing and production value were so sharp. I would laugh and then get creeped out in the next second. Brilliant. herc, you blew it on this one. Quick question: When did the FE gain the ability to be in more than one place at the same time? I'm wondering if this is the First. I'm going to say that all of the dead were evil, even Joyce. The psy. prof. vamp was no coincedence either.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 1:50 p.m. CST

    From beneath you, it devours

    by Braider

    When I heard them talking about "from beaneath you..." last night, what came to mind was a tarot deck. With the first card in the cross formation you're told, "this is beneath you, it is the sum total of what has past to create you". What is "devouring" them and destroying them now are their fears and insecurities, egged on by Morphy.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 2 p.m. CST


    by Thalya

    Dude, that's an awesome analogy, and it totally fits with all the episode references they've been doing in these eps. You know I've counted maybe nearly 40 by now? There were distinct references to The Body, Forever, Listening to Fear, Homecoming, GD2, and possibly the Harvest among others. Is anyone other than me keeping track of them all? I'd love to compare notes (and just to make a handy reference, I've got a thread going at the White Room devoted to this. Interested? You know how to contact me for directions.) /// And Lily Drop, thanks, but really it was more of 2GOLD's idea, he just has some computer trouble getting in here anymore.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 2:06 p.m. CST

    Spike is creating an army of vampires to fight evil Buffy!!!!

    by slopreilly

    . Spike is not evil and yes he did sire the vampires. But this is the reason.... He is creating an army of vampires to help him stop Buffy. Oh and I think that Principal Wood is Morphy in Human Form. It would explain alot including why he would give Buffy that job. I mean come on, what Principal in their right mine would let an untrained, uneducated, and former "trouble maker" counsel his students. He gave her the job to keep her close to the hellmouth and let the hellmouths magic work on her soul...much in the way it was eating at Spike. Buffy will be the big bad along with Morphy and it will take Faith to bring her down.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 2:23 p.m. CST

    *bing!* Idea!

    by Thalya

    "It will take Faith to bring her down." I KNEW they were waiting to put that name to good use. This really is a season about religion/morality, except I don't know how they're going to incorporate everything just yet. /// Um, guys... one thing to remind you of... BUFFY CAME BACK WRONG!

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 2:27 p.m. CST

    An army of vampires to defeat Buffy?

    by 93curr

    Say what? What on earth would make you, the first evil, or the Mutant Enemy writers think that an army of vamps would pose any kind of threat to Ms. Summers? Maybe she'd get some bronchial discomfort from breathing in so much dust, but that would be about the extent of it. They haven't been building up the mythology for this long only to have her be threatened by something as pathetic as vampires.

  • HOLY SHIT - where to begin... 1) Jonathan dying is perfect because it is so wrong. It indicates to me a reckless pulling-out-all-the-stops - i.e. if they can kill Jonathan who else can they kill? Also, Jonathan's character has come around so full-circle from that clocktower, it just makes it that much worse. And Holy Shit, Warren scared the bejeezus out of me! 2) Spike is not Morphy, although he may be influenced somehow - jury's still out. I think it's just more comforting to think that he is possessed or Morphy than to admit that HE'S EVIL. 3) Silent Spike juxtaposed with Buffy psychoanalysis makes him seem like her evil construct, one more thing pointing to the aforementioned spiral of Buffy as the BB. 4) Whether it was Joyce or Morphy or Morphy fighting Joyce, the result is the same: disconnection. And why would Joyce appear as her corpse self? And it is so out of character for Joyce to ruin her house. And the exorcism thing was way too easy, thus making it all seem like a ruse. 5) Amber Benson's trademark grin going all evil would have been priceless, but because it was Cassie, not Tara, that moment when we might wonder if Willow would off herself was really diminished. In an episode when we are so desperately seeking reassurances, Cassie's transparence gave it too us. Oh well, that'll keep the W/T fans happy. 6) All in all, it is almost irrelevent whether these were all Morphy or the dead. It's the confusion/dissconnection that is important. It's almost like we want it to be Morphy because an external villian is easier to defeat than inner demons. (Whimper) I miss Giles.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 2:37 p.m. CST

    Trying this again

    by AngelTash

    First of all, I LOVED this episode. Very creepy things going on. I am also surprised that this was not the Halloween episode. **** My initial impression was that FE was manifesting itself to the characters who have power. Willow has magic - take her out of the picture (either get her too scared to do magic because of consequences or to eliminate herself) and you get rid of a powerful foe. Dawn - I'm still not convinced that she doesn't have an important role to play (as the Key) in closing the Hellmouth for good. If you get her to leave Buffy, you no longer have to worry about the Key locking the gateway to hell. I don't think that the psych vamp was a manifestation of the FE. I think that part could have just been about explaining what's going on in Buffy's mind (which, I think has been requested on previous TBs). As far as the NOD, I think that FE was manipulating Andrew (just because he's totally clueless) to spill an innocent's blood on the seal - thereby activating it. BTW, I think we should refer to Andrew as a "Spastard" from here on out (Spaz + Bastard). With Anya and Xander being human and having no special powers, FE probably doesn't see them as a threat - therefore, no creepy visitors. **** Finally, Spike. Perhaps FE is making Spike sire all of these vampires to keep Buffy occupied. That way, she will not be available to stop it from opening the seal and releasing hell on earth. Maybe soul-Spike is in "sleep mode" during his siring. At any rate, I can't wait to see what happens next!

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 3:28 p.m. CST

    First Evil

    by Qwerty Uiop

    When did the First Evil get the ability to be in more than one place? I think it has always had it. It

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 4:13 p.m. CST

    Is Xander dead?

    by Forget_Byron

    Seriously, there wasn't even so much as a mention of him. Plus, Spike is living in his house now. I also noticed Xander's not in UPN's "happy, happy, joy, joy, feel good" promo for next week either. And BTW, what's with the silly promos when the eps this season are far superior to those from last year? And Anya's attempt to stake Spike would further the belief that Xander may in fact be dead. She'll not be far behind, though. And may in join with those of you who say WTF to the untimely, and unbeliveable death of Jonathon. Guess Andrew really is Warren's lovechild, if he's willing to do something in last night's ep that he wasn't able to do all of last season. I still believe that Angel and Buffy's finale are going to be tied together, within the restraints handed down by the spiteful, petty, WB. Eg, Faith will be the tie that binds. That's all for now.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 4:28 p.m. CST

    You are so naive

    by austpow507

    If you really think you've seen the last of Jonathan, you obviously are on sonething.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:11 p.m. CST

    Season 1 = Genesis?

    by stosh

    To further the line of thought regarding "From beneath you it devours" and the tarot cards and all of that...Could FE be doing what the serpent (first evil) did to Adam and Eve, basically make them aware of themselves and therefore ashamed, and as a result of this knowledge they were expelled from the Garden of Eden. And remember, later in the story Cain (who was tainted) kills his brother Abel (who was "pure")...

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:13 p.m. CST

    Why Xander wasn't in the episode. The Inside Scoop.

    by Qwerty Uiop

    I have this from a source in the know. Apparently he got stuck in his trailer, too fat to fit through the door, you see. So they greased him up with butter to try to slide him out, but he kept licking it off his body, then demanded more! So they scrapped his scene which would have been Xander haunted by all the cakes he'd eaten through out his life. But it turns out that the cakes weren't his delicious friends from the past, at all, they were actually the First Evil and had made themselves with salt instead of sugar, turning a delicious heaven into a bitter hell. Afterwards Xander would have sworn revenge. DAMN YOU FIRST EVIL, DAMN YOU TO HELL! But, it was cut from the episode.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:23 p.m. CST

    no wait- I missed it. Why isn't Amber Benson coming back?

    by Naia

    Is it something with her agent? I thought she was writing a movie that she'd star in with James Marsters. Did I pull that out of thin air or something?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Is there any reason to think Morphy really exists?

    by Billythehorn

    He's only shown up one time before last night(I think), and if Morphy is a real entity is it the First Evil. Didn't the thing talking to Willow say something like (and I know I won't get this exact)"I'm done with the mortal coil"? That doesn't sound like the First Evil to me. I may be missing something so please correct me if I am, but it seems too easy.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:35 p.m. CST

    Another reason why Buffy will probably end up being the big bad

    by fladnaG

    Spike was able to hit her without the chip being activated. He even commented that when she came back she didn't come back "quite right". When she fell from heaven it obviously changed her but we don't know how. I'm betting it made her evil. Any thoughts on this?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:42 p.m. CST

    Buffy didn't come back wrong

    by Anyawatcher

    Tara told her she didn't. Remember all that crying Buffy did. I like the idea(forget who) of The Principal being a Watcher. She still does work for the council and they know sending another Watcher would be useless, she wouldn't want anyone but Giles. The fat jokes are still dumb, let it go. Anyone still think Angel is better than Buffy this year?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:48 p.m. CST

    "Anyone still think Angel is better than Buffy this year?"

    by Qwerty Uiop

    If by better you mean when it comes to a hot dog eating contest, then yes, I do.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Being in more than one place at the same time

    by GypsyTRobot

    Sure Morphy can be in as many places as It wants to be, at the same time. There is mythological precedence for this phenomena. Enter one Sun Wu Kong, a demonic monkey king of Chinese Buddhist legend. This crazy mofo could pull any number of hairs off his body. Each hair could become another Monkey that could walk, talk and fight independently, in separate locations if necessary. And shapeshift into anything, too. Bet Joss thought he was being sooooo original. Sorry charlie; there is nothing new under the Sun.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 6 p.m. CST

    Damn you Qwerty!

    by GypsyTRobot

    you nearly had me spraying Coke all over the keyboard. I better start avoiding fluids during or before reading AICN TB's, or one of these days there's going to be an accident.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 6:34 p.m. CST


    by fladnaG

    If she didn't come back a little wrong then how come Spike could hit her after she died but not before? I'm just curious if you know the answer because I obviously don't.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 6:37 p.m. CST

    $240 Worth Of Pudding

    by chickenmonkey

    If FE wanted Willow off the magic, could it be that it wanted Dawn to start up? What with the whole reverse "Exorcist" scenes (daughter trying to drive away a demon that's tormenting her mother -- and she sure looked Linda Blairish toward the end of that beating), maybe FE's trying to get Dawn to dive into the black arts again, knowing that she can't handle the power. Lulling her into a false sense of security because, fer shure, her last combo of magic and dead mom turned out so nice. *** I actually thought Cassie instead of Tara worked better. Not only for the muting of the wetworks, but the no-touching aspect as well. I liked how ME made the "Tara couldn't be here" excuse plausible, emotional, and perhaps even with the subtext that Amber felt the same. *** I'm with SkiffyPup on the whole "Buffy's still in the mental hospital" thing, but it could just be a red herring tossed to the rabid fanbase. Who else enjoyed the set design of Buffy's therapy couch/coffin with her head resting on an open book? Genius. So many good touches throughout... *** Wasn't salsa playing in the kitchen during Joyce's bout with madness and space herpes? *** Stosh: thank you for the Cain and Abel analogy. I knew there was something tickling my brain during that whole scene. And yes, Warren freaked me the fuck out. The flashlight scene, and then later when the Spastard is looking up at him -- he looks like a propped-up corpse spookier than that final scene of Blair Witch. UuuuhghwhhaAAAAahhh. <<shiver>> *** Braider, I like your theories. I hope that Jonathan does come back to save the world. Everyone else has had their turn. *** Here are my hopes for the next ep: That they start up IMMEDIATELY from where the last left off. That would leave room for Mission Impossible Spike to tear off his latex mask, Buffy to come home and see the twister's remains, Willow to contact Giles to calm her fears about losing control, and everyone to catch up on the general freakshow that was the last night. I hope also that someone finds Jonathan's body, and there is a moving scene involving a tattered, glittery umbrella. *** As for the Buffy/Angel crossover bits -- UPN and WB need to get over their damn selves and let the two intermingle to the betterment of all involved. Hash out some kind of deal for Spring Sweeps NOW, and do a couple of trade-offs of characters. That kind of thing will make ratings SPIKE (hint hint).

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 6:44 p.m. CST

    I actually meant to say "muting of the WATERWORKS"

    by chickenmonkey

    as in "CRYING", not as in "covert ops specializing in bloody coups and assasinations." Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 6:54 p.m. CST

    You always hurt the ones you love

    by Anyawatcher

    Didn't Buffy say that. And for crossovers, I don't think the people at Angel want them. They want to say the shows are seperate. I've heard David B talk about Buffy and it seemed he wanted to say the shows have nothing to do w/ eachother anymore. Are all these Xander/Angel is fat remarks jealousy or a secret desire to be with them? It's like your pulling his hair or punching him the arm. you really like them don't you. You want them. You need them. Got and jailbait jokes about Dawn?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:02 p.m. CST

    ok, this may be to late to post but...

    by FatXander

    Xander and Anya are alive and well. Do you honestly think they would just off those two off camera? think about it. They just didn't seem a threat to FE, and he left them alone, leaving Anya and Xander as the level headed ones and the ones to make a difference. As far as the chip, we know it works, so this whole "he's doing it for a good cause thing" is BS. He was attacking Zach "home improvment hasbeen" for a good cause, but it still hurt. I think spike was with xander the whole time and morphy is fucking with them. Also, FE can touch people. watch amends. it touchs angel quite a few times. It could easily have been the vamp, cassie, and joyce. as far as johnathan, i bet he opens the hellmouth. think of 'doomed.' they needed sacrifices to open it. It's simple deduction. and dawn is going to end up exrtremly powerful, she showed a pentchent for magic this ep, possibly leading to her tapping into her "key" energy. I havn't been this excited about Buffy since season 3. excellent

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:03 p.m. CST

    the song in the ep people seem the lust for

    by Afext more specifically: ==ANGIE ON BUFFY== "i will be appearing on buffy again, with a song that joss and i wrote together. the episode is called 'talking to dead people' and i believe it airs on nov the 12th, but i'll let you know if that changes. that's what i've been told. the song is called 'blue' and it is under the 'angie hart' project. we dubbed the band 'the hardened arteries', which features jesse (duh, as if it wouldn't)on guitar. he produced the recording of the track for the show...what a little team. p.s. i hired him for the job." Sorry MP3 hunters, it doesn't seem to exist.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:08 p.m. CST


    by chickenmonkey

    If Spike seemed a bit insane recently, maybe it's because the FE has been doing some rewiring of synapses to bypass the chip? Or perhaps it's just a century's worth of nicotine withdrawal.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:22 p.m. CST

    Finally cranking it up (spoilers)

    by Jack Burton

    This episode was excellent. Best of the season by far. It is truly sad that Amber Benson could not some back because if she had been there then I think the payoff would have been extraordinary. Watching Willow as she realizes she has been betrayed was good, but watching her with Tara as the betrayer would have been stunning and hinted at the depraved depths i think this season is going to go. The Dawn/Joyce/It scenes were intense and scary. And who knows if it was really Joyce making with the prophetic remarks? The Buffy scenes had the only humor to be found and were interesting but not terribly revealing. Just more of her admitting what a shit she has been. All in all, it was a great "what the hell is going on?" episode that seemed to show that the "good times" are pretty much over. But how/why is Spike attacking people. Has he been faking the chip thing? I swear when he staked the worm boy right as he turned back to human a few eps back it looked like he reacted more out of habit then pain. Good stuff.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:34 p.m. CST

    "I'm done with the mortal coil."

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    I think the key points to remember here is that The First (which apparently is the official designation that ME is using) is not an individual person or entity. Nor do I think it's the Earth itself (though it is tied directly to the planet -- Teri's Rape's vision of how the Hellmouth would open, as a gigantic ever-growing crater, fits with this. It would be the ultimate finale of finales to see most of Sunnydale crater under the ground). The First is a virtually omniscient "thing." It probably won't appear in the finale as a giant demonic creature or the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. The First is, in all likelihood, Buffy. When Cassie/The First said to Willow that she's "done with the mortal coil," imagine Dark Buffy saying this and the other words that The First said to Willow in the end. It seems to fit with Buffy in her darkest psyche moments.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:39 p.m. CST

    Evil Spike

    by asantiago72

    ME has spent a long time developing Spike's character. That is not a guarantee against making him evil, but I believe that it would at least force ME to come up with a plausible (and time consuming) explanation to make such a move digestable. Jonathan, for instance, was a relatively marginal character in the show and still, his gratituous and glamourless death is creating a minor rebellion. +++++ So far we haven't seen such a story, and on the other hand, the FE seems very able at using lies and half truths as tactics to cause mistrust and self-doubt within the group. Therefore, I tend to believe that Spike is either being framed or forced by the FE to do his bidding, although we probably won't know for sure for a while.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 7:54 p.m. CST

    Theory: The history of The First

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    The First was the darkness and evil presence throughout the ancient Earth when demons ruled. ("First came darkness...") It was defeated by humans, probably shamans. Most demons were cast out of the world upon its defeat, but The First poisoned humanity with vampirism, to seed the possibility of an army for its return someday. The literal power, or essence, of The First (its "heart") was divied up -- part of it used to create The First Slayer (ME calls her The Primitive) to fight the vampires. (This is why vamps are weakest in the heart.) The remaining parts of The First's essence was parceled out to Slayers-In-Training. This is because no one Slayer can handle all this dark essence at once within her. Followers of The First are now helping to kill Slayers-In-Training because this will cause The First's essence to well up in the last surviving Slayer. This time, the plan is to use the Slayer herself as the means to bring back The First, and to return demons to the Earth. Thus, the more Slayers-In-Training that are killed, the more powerful and darker Buffy (and Faith, too) are becoming. The Slayers are all "daughters" of The First -- and "daddy" is now coming home. (Notice how there has been a father-daughter theme throughout this series, with Buffy and her deadbeat dad, and with Giles.)

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 8:24 p.m. CST

    T. has an eye for detail

    by RogueScribner

    Good call on Andrew and Jonathan being on a different timeline than the rest of the characters. I think you're absolutely right. Jonathan's death is what released the FE (or whatever) to go do its nasty business. So the question remains: was that really Warren or the FE fucking with Andrew? L8r

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 8:26 p.m. CST

    "Are all these Xander/Angel is fat remarks jealousy or a secret

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Yes, I wish I was a ham filled bean bag. I'm like Pinochio, only different. "I'm not a boy, I'm a ham filled bean bag." Of course, its not my nose that grows when I lie, but whatever...

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 8:35 p.m. CST

    "Are all these Xander/Angel is fat remarks jealousy or a secret

    by chickenmonkey

    I'd much rather be with Olaf. He at least had some meatballs. Anya WAY lowered her standards to be with 5th Wheel. And while we're on the subject -- Barry: Your brother is HOT! And talented! Are you sure you weren't adopted?

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 8:43 p.m. CST

    Buffy can't be the big bad!

    by thezombiedude

    Cassie said that Buffy'd make a differance, and she certainly didn't do that with a "You'll eat your friends!" sort of way. Unless the writers are planning to take the time to unearth Cassie's corpse and give a whole "she's a really good guesser or something now go slaughter dawn explanation" I seriously doubt Buffy'll be turning evil.

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:10 p.m. CST

    I see your point Prof. but

    by Billythehorn

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:15 p.m. CST

    just another brick in the wall

    by Melestopheles

    As I watched the episode again (god bless video recording technology) "cassie" mentioned during the unveiling that "it" was her, about willow's friends. Hense she knew who was in the scooby gang and who wasn't. I think the Morphy/FE/Big Baddie/creepy thing looked like she was smiling herself into a freakin langolier is just trying to cause a rift between them all. Like the other poster said, we just saw the finale with Adam on FX. The way Adam was going to win was getting Spike to break the Scooby Gang apart. I think that's exactly what the aforementioned thing from IT was trying to do. Willow saw through it. Hopefully she will relay that to the others and the realizations start filtering through. another note*** Dawn nuking the marshmellow kicked serious arse because I ALWAYS did that whilt growing up in the poor and unknown lifestyle that is my life. 1000 ghetto points for whoever slide that into the script!!!!!

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:16 p.m. CST

    Is it possible for the First Evil and First Slayer created at th

    by warlock411

    As in 2 halfs of a whole or as in balance, keeping the balance of good and evil ..... Perhaps brought about by the spell Giles,Willow,Xander,Tara did at the end of season 4 to help Buffy kill Adam. .....

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 9:21 p.m. CST

    Maybe it's the First Evil Slayer!!!!

    by Billythehorn

  • Nov. 13, 2002, 10:43 p.m. CST

    "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"

    by mmmspike

    About this whole "Spike is evil and siring vampires, ah crap, this sucks!" stuff; too many people are jumping to conclusions. Reasons against Spike going evil: 1) He still has the chip in his head. Am I the only one that thought he was in pain when he stabbed Robbie the ex-worm? What with the screaming and all. I'm thinking along the lines of Morphy-Spike or (more likely) Spike being controlled by Morphy; 2) Has anyone else *watched* the first 6 episodes of the season? Was there any reason for anyone to believe that Spike was an evil murderer in disguise or faking his insanity to trick Buffy? Because I have the feeling he was in that basement for a long time ... and he never knew Buffy would show up; 3) If ME was going to do a storyline as big and important as 'Spike goest evil -again!', they would do it later in the season; and 4) Too much time spent developing Spike's character for him to go bad for no good (ha ha) reason. I know that I could in no way be right, and Spike could go evil and Buffy would (for some reason) not stake him (because JM's contracted to be around the entire season). I'm just saying my piece. I said it. It's done then.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 12:14 a.m. CST

    Folks, Nick Brendon is NOT FAT. Xander might be, but Nick is RIP

    by Lily Drop

    Just needs to be cleared up. Check out his arms when he wears short-sleeved tees. And there is photographic evidence of his ripped-ness from a convention this year when he had his shirt off. But I think ME does want to give the impression that Xander is fat, it fits his character. Must've worked, because everyone thinks he really is fat.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 12:49 a.m. CST

    Nick Brendan's mom, ladies and gentlemen!

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Give it up for Nick Brendan's Mom!

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 12:53 a.m. CST

    "I guess that would be you, nibblet."

    by dalis

    I didn't really mean that Spike is totally evil. I think he's much too multi-faceted for that. I just wanted to say something cool with the Caps Lock button down. And he did speak, right? to the chick he picked up? We just didn't hear them because it was all O.S. Buffy psychoanalysis, which is why I think they are trying to say that Buffy somehow is responsible for the direction Spike is going (assuming it is Spike).

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 12:55 a.m. CST


    by dalis

    ...and sure the chip hurts, but, you know, it's a good kind of hurt.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 2:08 a.m. CST

    I can't let it go...

    by Steepdog

    I although it's been beaten to death, as an English major, I have to cast a pox on Bwstarwars for comparing his ripped off crap to Yeats, and suggesting that it is better. Yeat's left ass cheek could have written better than that schlock. I will admit, your slam of talkback haters didn't suck, but re-arranging lines from other people's work (and don't think we didn't notice that what you didn't steal from Whedon and Yeats you stole from George Lucas)does not count as being "better" than one of the best poets of the 20th century. Originality gets you respect, copying a bunch of other people and then shoving it down people's throats saying its original makes you look like a dork. If you insist on posting it every time you change something, CHANGE something, and throw out all of the unoriginal crap. You actually seem like you might be able to come up with something that isn't complete crap so why insist on annoying people? So anyway, what's the deal with Spike? If he's morphy, how can morphy make somebody a Vampire? I'm leaning towards the possesion theory.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 3:50 a.m. CST

    Whatever, Qwerty Uiop

    by Lily Drop


  • Nov. 14, 2002, 3:56 a.m. CST

    Okay, Lily Drop

    by Qwerty Uiop


  • Nov. 14, 2002, 4:14 a.m. CST

    chickenmonkey, where did you get $240?

    by Lily Drop

    Awww yeah...

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 4:19 a.m. CST

    hurumph, Qwerty

    by Lily Drop

    ...! (I'm not Nick's mom, that's why I'm all indignant.)

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 4:54 a.m. CST

    Nick Brendan's girlfriend, Ladies and Gentlemen

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Give it up for Nick Brendan's girlfriend!

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 5:20 a.m. CST

    "we're going to have a big blow out at the end of the year?"

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Too... much... cake.... stomach... expanding.... BOOM! "Angel and Xander have just had a blow out, I repeat, Angel and Xander have just had a blow out."

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 8:46 a.m. CST


    by EDraven

    Was Xander doing with out a shirt on? Showing of his bitch tits.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 9:26 a.m. CST


    by AngelTash

    ...said "Spastard"! woo hoo!

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 10:18 a.m. CST

    Superiority-inferiority and other stuff

    by GypsyTRobot

    I thought this was a brilliant stroke on the part of ME. Oldstyle comicbook superheroes are so one-dimensional, there is nothing there to psychoanalyze. But here we have Buffy living in a Buffyverse where people have conflicts and issues in a way that almost approaches reality. They can be analyzed. Think about it: in real life, if you had superpowers you probably would develop a big ego complete with feelings of superiority over one's friends. And if Buffy has enough self-awareness to recognize her "superiority complex" and to see her own flaws, and if she feels that she's betraying her friends by feeling above them - well that could certainly lead to some issues. Buffy's pronouncements like "I was always brave and kind of righteous" and "I am the law" are possible evidence of a superiority complex. That and all the crap she said to Spike ("You're just convenient") while having a sexual relationship with the poor guy. And being a little too bossy with Dawn. OTOH she also has had a lot of humbling and painful experiences (Spike, working at Doublemeat, trying to kill her friends are just a few examples) and Buffy's always had a certain air of humility (contrast her dialogue with Cordy's in the early seasons). Although that humility has definitely diminished. The vampire's analysis makes perfect sense to me. I had been wondering why Buffy's been so unlikable lately . . . maybe with Giles gone, the power has finally gotten to her head. P.S. I watched the ep. again last night, noticed that A) the walls at the Summers house shaked a tad too much for a real house and too much like a set. B) did Dawn see her mom in that couch pose? I thought Buffy discovered Joyce on the sofa and then the paramedics collected the body; then Buffy went to the school to tell Dawn. C) Did you see the extra set of arms on that demon? Yuck! D) My cat was a little bit scared of the demon breathing. E) Jonathan reminded me of the episode from several years ago where he was super Jonathan, I wonder if he was reprising his noble self because he knew he was going to die.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 10:35 a.m. CST

    This week on Buffy, the role of Xander Harris will be played by

    by mr stay puft

    The 'vampire in the graveyard' served as the 'quick-quipping' confidant role that Mr. Brendan so personifies. His character would have been a bit redundant. You are correct, Professor Pop-Cult; I have not been contacted by Mr. Whedon, nor anyone at ME to appear on BTVS this season.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 10:44 a.m. CST


    by Daireen

    Mortal coil - the earth itself? WAY back when, don't even remember when, someone had mentioned that the Slayer's power might very well have a demonic source, i.e. to fight demons, you gotta be a lil bit of one yourself. Well, considering the Slayers are mystically chosen (I mean really, a snobby valley girl as The Chosen One [re: movie]?), it could be that the mystical energy tranference thingamabob is actually a bit of the First Evil. I want to know more about the Watchers, frankly. Did they used to be shamans, who imbued the First Slayer with a bit of the demonic energy they were fighting, and only later became the bureaucratic Council they are today? To me, it would be incredibly awesome if just before the Big Happenings(tm) of the last few episodes, they had two or three eps completely dedicated to the beginnings of the whole Slayer line, the early Watchers, etc. Hellmouth opens, stuff goes wrong, Buffy goes insane, then we get the origins backstory, then we go to the series finale. Just me. :)

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 10:59 a.m. CST

    suprised nobody mentioned this

    by Saltate

    Spike is siring vampires. Last season on Angel, the prophecy that sarjon was trying to thwart was "The one sired by a vampire with a soul will kill Sarjon." Maybe there are other prophecies about Conner that Spike read and somehow got confused by.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 11:12 a.m. CST


    by Daireen

    Saltate: Good point, and it's seriously frustrating that ME has to be sneaky about crossovers because UPN/WB can't get the capitalist rods out of their corporate asses and just let these Whedonverse shows do their thang. </rant> Since SahJahn isn't in the cast of either show (like Faith, hence her crossing ability), it would be very interesting to have him appear on Buffy and say "Crap! I thought I took care of this with Connor! Is there some kind of bargain bin of souls now?" OK, amusing visual of SahJahn running around, trying to stop multitudes of vampires grabbing souls from a spiritual K-mart.. Tee hee. OK, back to the point: How much of either canon can we apply to the other show? Since all this vamp w/soul prophecising happened before Spike got _his_ spark back, does that suddenly negate the Angelverse prophecy? I think it's a safe assumption that The Apocalypse [insert ominous music here] is not coincidental on either show (handy lil non-crossover crossover), but what does it mean for the people? Stoopid corporate asswipes! WE NEED CROSSOVER MADNESS!! OK, gonna go detox from this caffeine..

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 11:25 a.m. CST


    by jmctalker

    Although the cross-over idea is a big possibilty, I don't understand why Satan would be such a big-go on Angel, and not on Buffy. It doesn't take a mastery of symbolism in the chronicles of human history to understand, very simply, what a pentagram and a goat head mean. That goes way beyond catholic symbolism. And anyways, a four year old would understand the devil a lot faster than they would the first evil.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 11:44 a.m. CST


    by Daireen

    Actually, the goathead is entirely dependent upon catholic symbolism. The concept of Satan as we perceive it now (mega-evil dude who runs hell and wants all our souls, muahaha) didn't even exist until the 1100's or so when the church was looking for something to tell the decidedly unrepentant "Look, accept Jesus as your savior, or else THIS guy will getcha." In the bible, Satan is a bit player whose only real leading man appearance is in Revelation. God is the scariest thing in the Old Testament, second only to the Ark itself. ;) The inverted pentagram itself never meant evil until much much later. (And really, why the heck does it mean evil now? An upside-down cross would make more symbolic sense.) Pride is considered the greatest of the 7 deadly sins, cause that's the reason Satan fell, so in a way, the First Evil is really pride itself. And that fits with Buffy's superiority complex, and Faith's entire existence (up until her voluntary incarceration).

  • Nov. 14, 2002, noon CST

    of all things goat

    by jmctalker

    I do agree with you - there are grey areas of symbolism - but the pentagram itself was a symbol before christianity (as I understand it - it's my opinion, not fact) it was of man, with each point representing the extensions of human power and earth's power. This goes back to Ancient Mesopotamia). Christianity revived it for sure, but even then it was for good. It is the usage in CWDP of an inverted pentagram which I see as kind of linked to Pagan/Wiccan/etc. views of demonology and satan. In fact, the goat head and the inverted pentagram go together in what you have said, and others, in that the goat head represents the earth and from beneath it, satan. Hence - - "From beneath you, it devours" - If Buffy's speach had meaning in CWDP, then I would concede that after Satan, Buffy is the best candidate for the Big Bad.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 12:16 p.m. CST


    by Daireen

    Yep, Pythagoreans saw the pentacle as representative of the human body, as well as the elements + spirit. The goat = evil thing is actually the church's reversal of earlier beliefs - Pan was the goat-footed nature god of the Romans & Greeks, and while thought of as unpredictable (panic is a derivative), he wasn't considered evil. I won't get into comparative mythology (though email me if you want to be subjected to a rant.. heh), but suffice it to say that yes, based on modern symbolism and belief structures, the First Evil in the Buffyverse is basically Satan. Dammit! I'm STILL upset that Jonathan got knocked off by that prissy little twig. I hope he gets to come back as something.. OMG it would be NEAT if the First Evil used Jonathan as his avatar.. That would just be damn creepy, cause Jonathan has such a sweet face..

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 12:27 p.m. CST

    Season Seven - Spuffy-Hell!

    by Pachelbel

    As a Englander who has just seen a tape of the first seven episodes of BtVS I have one burning question - what are they going to do with Buffy and Spike this year? We have the wonderfully dramatic, beautifully delivered, emotionally draining "Beneath You" where Spike reveals that he has embraced mental agony 'For her, to be her's' with Buffy crying at the sight of him burning on the cross. Then in the next episode, nothing, almost as if its been forgotten, like a passing dream. (And nothing focusing on this since which I can't understand). Then in ep 4 the cryptic prophecy that 'Someday she will tell you.' Presumably referring to Buffy telling Spike that she loves him (ps note to writers, do not on any account have this being said when either of them is in the process of being viciously slaughtered to death). Buffy has been described as behaving like a bitch towards him, a fact she has admitted in ep 7 but is the ice thawing? I can quite understand her reticence what with the attempted rape in Season 6 and his Byron-esque babbling in a basement this series, neither of which is entirely conducive to romance but I truly think some groundwork is being laid. I don't expect a return to the serial-shagging, bed-breaking of last year but something deeper. Buffy is starting to admit, however slowly that her feelings for Spike remain unresolved and that something complicated and deep remains between them. I just can't help thinking that the second half of the season will see something happen. I can't believe that after all this build-up over two years, with all the chemistry between them they'll let it end in a damp squib with them declaring their friendship for all eternity. It is the most interesting character relationship in the entire show and I really think that apart from ep 2 they have rather glided over it so far. Are they setting us up for a packed finale? Just my thoughts, long-winded as they are (a genetic trait of my nation I'm afraid) what do others think will happen?

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 12:54 p.m. CST

    Satan aint the one

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Whedon is not going to use Satan as his big bad. The man uses Pseudo mythology for his world. We might get an Asmodeus( who predates Satan by about 1500 years), Ariman (ditto), Annan(in fact all these demon names predate the Old Testaments Satan), Azazel, Baal, or Belzeebub, but its still going to be called the First Evil. Still it would be cool if if introduced itself with all the names man has been calling it over the centuries.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Something to consider....The opening of the hellmouth on Buffy i

    by slopreilly

    Think about. On Angel, Lorne and Cordy both saw an evil coming, and evil beyond all comprehension. IT hadn't happened yet, but was coming VERY SOON. Now on this weeks Buffy, Andrew opens the Hellmouth and The First Evil will obviously come out. This is the crossover that ME is doing between the shows. The First Evil on Buffy will be the same villian, maybe in a slightly different form that will come on Angel. As far as the prophecies go about the one vampire with a soul having a part to play in the coming apocalypse....think about this for a second. It is well known that the gang on Angel is going to remove Angel's soul because they figure their only hope of defeating this evil is with the use of Angelus. If they do remove his will leave only ONE vampire with a soul.....SPIKE. Perhaps it is Spike that the prophecies are referring to and not Angel as everyone thinks. Just some food for thought.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 1:27 p.m. CST

    Some good points Slopreilly but...

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    The BB on Angel is a minion of the thing coming to SunnyD i believe. Some kind of super tuff demon or hell god. I think you might be right about the prophesies being about Spike instead of Angel, but if that were true that would pretty much undercut the primary arc running throught that shows history. Oh course if Joss has no problem undercutting Willows entire past i dont see why he couldnt do it with Angel too.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 1:41 p.m. CST

    Vampire with a soul

    by Billythehorn

    Maybe the Angel gang summons Angelus because they find out "the vapire with a soul" is going to be on the side of evil. If they don't know about Spike they might think they could stop it that way. It would answer the question of why they need Angelus at all.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 4:36 p.m. CST

    zodiac symbols

    by dalis

    Did anyone else notice that there are more symbols than just the pentagram and the goat's head on the seal. On the other two points were the zodiac symbols for libra (on the left) and taurus (on the right). Any thoughts?

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 5:05 p.m. CST


    by Pachelbel

    It seems that episode 9 is going to be called 'Never Leave Me' - are we FINALLY going to get another Spuffy-centric episode? Will there, at long last, be some recollection of and reaction to what Spike told Buffy in the church way back when? Given, as I believe this will be the last episode before the xmas break will they leave us with a spicy slice of intrigue before the holidays?

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 5:39 p.m. CST

    RE: We haven't heard much from the "Dawn is hot and almost legal

    by Jack Parsons

    "I can only assume they're all still sitting on their living room floors, drooling, their heads tilted back like Homer Simpson, stunned by Dawn's little butt wiggle and then the sight of her eagerly licking off hot, sticky white goo off her fingers and face. HELLO!!! Had to go there. Just too good" -- godrefla. Ummm. I count myself as pre-voited as the next drooling Dawn worshiper, but you are alone in this one. I just thought the song, and Dawn, were cute as hell. The only TB pervert seems to be you :) Shame! Hiss! Hellbound you are! (Amazing how most of the U.S. was safe for "perverts" too drool over Dawnies about twenty years back or so. She was marrying age! then we went Victorian recently. What "perversion" is depends on the most vocal moralizers of the age, and the acquiesence of everyone else in the face of being labelled a perv.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 6:18 p.m. CST

    "It's the Apocalypse, man! Fire from the heavens! Chickens and

    by chickenmonkey

    As for the Zodiac symbols, Buffy's a Capricorn like me (birthday ep always falls in early January), so, if the symbols weren't just cheap set design, whose might they be? Hmmm... Must consult the Watchers tomes...

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 6:20 p.m. CST

    godrefla, don't worry about being "that guy."

    by chickenmonkey

    I am he most oftenly.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 6:39 p.m. CST

    And speaking of overposting...

    by chickenmonkey

    Anybody heard from a certain bloody-awful poet recently? (I dare not speak his name else he be summoned...) Perhaps the villagers gathered their torches after all...

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 6:41 p.m. CST

    All right, ya yo-yos, I am no relation to Nick, nor his wife, no

    by Lily Drop

    ...nor anything but a fan, but I hate to see a good looking guy get a bad rap. Here is the evidence, and note that the caption says: "Sunday Beefcake

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 7:05 p.m. CST

    Man i miss old school Season 3 Spike

    by BJC0410

    I kinda wish that spike had remained the "Q" of the Buffyverse. Like in season three when he popped in and dropped knowledge on Buffy and Angel made us lauigh and dropped out. Honestly they're Pulling a Borg/Venom on us. What i mean by that is that spike was such a cool bad guy that they've oversaturated us with him. Season five got it right towards the end where they made him evil but noble. Spike and Buffy should have never been romantically involved. And I agree the rape thing was indeed tacked on. I think they need to establish spike on his own outside of buffy. Maybe have him head over to AI to seek some counseling from LORne and pick a fight with angel?

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 7:06 p.m. CST


    by chickenmonkey

    Lily Drop, I take back all slander Xander Talk Backs. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways. (And props to you for catching The State reference! I miss that show.) Now, if you'll excuse me, I think someone microwaved a marshmallow in my pants.

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 7:27 p.m. CST

    Thanks Lily Drop

    by ArchDiver

    That rap was getting tired. Thanks for settin em straight. But be prepared to have to repeat yourself next week... AD out

  • Nov. 14, 2002, 10:29 p.m. CST

    "He isn't as flabby as this angle suggests girls,"

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Sure he isn't, SURE he isn't...

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:04 a.m. CST

    Between Buffy, Angel, and 24...

    by Smegohki II SUCKS to live in California. (But maybe the bomb could take out the Beast.)

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:50 a.m. CST

    The best episode of the season thus far, and possibly one of the

    by a goonie

    Okay, so last week I said "Him" was the best episode of the season, and now I'm already singing a new tune. I know... to some it may seem silly. My love for Buffy is so strong that i find it impossible to give any episodes thumbs down. And a lot deserve five stars in my opinion. But "Conversations With Dead People" was genius. The "previously" sequence and opening pre-creds bit were among the best I've ever seen. Buffy's "Here we go" line in response to the vamp's hand shooting out of the grave. Amazingly affective. The fact that all three of these tales are eventually wrapped in darkness. The images with Joyce and that devil creature were quite creepy. Buffy's opening up was sweet and heartfelt. Willow's response to Tara's messages was insanely powerful (Will is my favourite character.) In fact, all the Will stuff was amazing. and then... the best part of all... Azura Skye's closing statements... holy shit... that is the big bad right there. That's Morphy. The dialogue was dead-on. The effect of somewhat turning inside out and then into thin air was incredible. That whole moment just absolutely knocked my socks off. An incredible episode for me. I will be singing its praises for a long time to come.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 4:19 a.m. CST

    Daireen- Pan connection

    by Thalya

    I don't know how many saw this earlier spec by some, but basically Pan -> Puck -> Robin Goodfellow -> Robin Wood. It makes sense that his base is right atop the Hellmouth and he has excuses for staying there late to do work and such (Him, for example, and him just listening to that muzak...erg... He's Evil I tell you!) But I'm unsure now if it's some neutral figure that's doing all this. Clearly from this week's ep the thing is Evil, and while it says it's tired of the whole Good vs. Evil thing, I think what it's really tired of is a balance of power. I think it wants all the power for itself, and that can only happen if Humanity, the big source of Good, is wiped out. Also, here's something to chew on for anyone who wants to, just to get the thought out there (from a larger argument on why Holden Webster vamp was really Morphy (Earth) in disguise, or at least under the thrall of Morphy): "Everyone is [alone], until you die." There's a good double entendre. Everything's connected, but not in Morphy's (Earth's) preferred way (death, thus burial, thus connected to evil by giving way to the nature of one's physical/mortal self.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 9:33 a.m. CST


    by Daireen

    I wanna know more about that teacher, Mr. Lonegrin (Lohengrin?)... ;) He was mentioned in Lessons, but we've never gone back to him.. --- --- Considering Lohengrin is one of the guardians of the Holy Grail, damn, it's almost a waste of a potential good guy. I'm thinking not enough viewers know opera (dammit!) to get the reference, so they dropped the concept. ----- Robin Wood as Puck: while it makes perfect sense etymologically, he hasn't done a lot to make me believe it isn't just a quirky coincidence on the part of the writers. For an avowed trickster, this Robin has been positively sedate. :) He's a hilarious character, and since they've made the effort to give him more than a few lines and a definite presence, you know something's gonna happen to him (dammit! Jonathan!!! waahahahaaa), but so far, he hasn't done anything to make me buy the Puck aspect. I look forward to being proved wrong. :)

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 10:01 a.m. CST

    Humanity - the big source of Good

    by GypsyTRobot

    You're joking, right?

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 10:02 a.m. CST

    Brendon the Beefster

    by GypsyTRobot

    OK, he's not a lardass. but he's not ripped like Marster by a long stretch. Let's call him "well-marbled" and leave it at that.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 10:21 a.m. CST

    Bah to beef!

    by Daireen

    I would hardly call Spike "ripped".. the guy's a beanpole... Now Riley... mmmmmmmmm gimme somma dat Iowa lovin any day... I like my men a bit on the smooshy side anyway. So much more fun - it doesn't feel like you're hugging a rail. I've been watching S2 on DVD, and it's almost shocking how gaunt Buffy looks in comparison to the early years. Seasons 4 and 5 are on the weekends, and I think it's around season 4 that she starts to get unusually skinny. Willow, thankfully, looks pretty much the same, so huzzah Willow!

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 11:49 a.m. CST

    Whoever showed pic of flabby Xander...

    by Rude_Kaiser

    your a RETARD. That only shows that he needs to do more repetition and get ripped fast. His flabby pale body makes me shudder and I'm a guy. Spike does have the best shape of all the guys on both Angel and Buffy. Gunn, Angel and Xander have become hefty, but seriously, what's the big deal. Everyone can't look like Superman. Querty's jokes were funny but are getting tired with repetition. Let it go. Let's start picking at the skinny women now. As far as Spike being boney D, I think he does that for the role. I've seen pictures of that guy at 200lbs and ripped. It wasn't great though. I don't think short guys with a lot of muscles are that good looking. But again, I'm a guy so there.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 12:41 p.m. CST


    by The Last Vampyre

    SPIKE: Why is Spike biting again? Remember Amemds? Not long after ANGEL got his soul back he began having dreams and seeing ghosts telling him to give in to his desires and kill (Buffy). The same could be happening to Spike, this supreme evil is obviously a shape-shifter, who cannot fight only pusuade people, when they're vunerable, to turn against each other. Can Johnathan really be dead!?

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 1:23 p.m. CST

    FE vs. Earth

    by _trick

    Have to admit that although I'm very convinced by the evidence that this season's Big Bad is FE, I came to the same conclusion of a few other posters that it seems an awful lot like Earth. Without rehashing some of the good clues that support the Earth theory, I'll just add this snippet from a Marti Noxon interview at Prevue mag: NOXON: We

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 1:48 p.m. CST

    zodiac signs2

    by _trick

    good catch, dalis, on the zodiac signs. libra and taurus. have to go home and slow-mo through this on TIVO to be sure, but would be another good clue that the big bad is actually earth, which Taurus most closely represents among the zodiac. the fact that it is linked with libra (balance) only supports what Willow has been learning about how everything in the earth and magic are all connected. good and bad all come from the same source. And since the Big Bad just told us how tired it is of keeping the balance, maybe it is not so much after the good, but getting ready to in effect commit suicide, or devour itself. maybe that was what we saw it do in the form of Azure Sky's fantastic exit.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:01 p.m. CST


    by chickenmonkey

    You sir, have blown my mind. I think that is the coolest, most interesting, in-depth analysis of the BB so far. I am in awe. Just goes to show that Season Six apparently depressed EVERBODY -- even driving the Earth to commit suicide. Perhaps it's first attempt was by using Willow (Earth=source of all magic), and showing her the pain of all the souls trapped in their mortal coils. And now it knows that if Will has the power to bring about Armageddon, she might also have to power to stop it, thus FE trying to take her out via Cassie/Tara. Hmmm? Am I going along with this right, or getting it messed up?

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:07 p.m. CST


    by Daireen

    That's a really awesome theory, but I'm disturbed by the notion of the earth being evil, re: the other evidence of negative imagery (goathead/pentacle, usually acknowledged as satanic, the entire concept of a _hell_mouth, etc.) which seems more like a First Evil thing. And we already know the FE exists, thru Amends, so it's a teeny bit of a stretch to suddenly imply the earth itself is evil. It's certainly an interesting concept; Earth is tired of all these people walking around & messing things up, and so buh-bye, mortal coil. I wish I had taped it so I could see if there were other signs on the (door? plate? hellhole cover?)... Does anyone remember any other signs or just Libra & Taurus?

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:17 p.m. CST

    Fatuous note about that picture of Nick.

    by Mistah Kurtz

    Is that Robert Leeshock next to him? 'Cause if so, ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Can't this guy's awful career just end already?

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:24 p.m. CST


    by chickenmonkey

    When Willow was linked up with the Earth and could only focus on the pain of all people (since she was in a very grieving mindset), her grief transferred to the Earth, and got locked in to its worldview (bad pun?) when Xander severed her connection. Then it wouldn't be that the Earth is EVIL, per se, just that Willow left it bent on self-destruction. The fact that Willow can get connected again (as shown in the first couple eps this season) doesn't necessarily mean that the Earth notices this -- since she's no longer using such a powerful connection. And is it just me or does talking about the Earth as a character and capitalizing and stuff just look a little... I don't know... silly? Maybe that's why Joss hasn't given the BB a name this time around.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:33 p.m. CST

    See? NEW poetry can be good... Maybe...

    by chickenmonkey

    Please don't call me a stupid slug, but maybe the Hellmouth is Earth's butt-plug. Give it a yank to burst the balloon, kinda like those slave-dudes from Dune. Maybe Earth's done with this mortal coil, and wants release from this strife and toil. If you've a problem with what I've just stated, think about it again next time you're constipated.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:36 p.m. CST


    by twitaman

    I just saw last week's episode (thank god for friends and VCRs). I have to agree with everyone who said it was one of the best in years. It had chills (the scenes with Dawn); it had emotion (Willow's story); and it had wit (Buffy and her wannabe psych-vamp). Cheers to Jane and Drew for concocting such a terrific teleplay. And for everyone who thinks it wasn't Spike but some sort of imposter who was biting that girl at the end of the show...YOU'RE WRONG. Spike has a soul now, and that said soul can be possessed. That was Spike, a possessed Spike, but Spike none the less. ...oh yeah, and I too was sorry to see Jonathan bite the dust...oh well

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 2:41 p.m. CST

    To Dalis and Qwerty

    by Nerdalicious

    Dalis, I thought you offered the best reason yet why Joyce was not real: out of character for Joyce to trash her own house. Too true!// Qwerty Uiop, you crack me the f*ck up. Your 'fat Xander stuck in his trailer' and your response to the Andrew being gay question with 'why, are you looking for a date?' ... Too goddamn funny. I laughed for untold minutes over the ham-filled bean bag comment. Don't let 'em tell you you're getting redundant. You're not. No way. Not at all. Not even a little bit. Absolutely impossible. Don't even think it. Not a bit redundant. Mm-mm. Nope. Uh-uh.(shuffles off mumbling to self ...)//

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Morphy so can touch!

    by Thalya

    Just, in order.. GypsyTRobot: Um, where else are you going to find a source of Good on earth then? /// Now for Morphy: Lessons: Drusilla stroking Spike's cheek. Selfless: if White Buffy was Morphy, then she was touching him. Now for my big Morphy was H.W.vamp in CWDP argument (it's a little all over the place, but it builds). *** Ok, first off on Holden Webster vamp guy, just listen to the various bits on him trying to get Buffy to recognize him. Buffy doesn't in the least but she's playing all nice and polite since he threw her with that intro right in the middle of the fight. Basically he mentions things and she keeps agreeing with him so as to appear that she wasn't a self-absorbed ignoramus in high school. It's a linguistic language game thing, btw, and I bet that was all Jane (I was just reading her interview in the Watcher's Guide 2 and she was a linguistics grad student). ### "No no. Feels great. Strong. Like I'm connected to a powerful all-consuming evil that's going to suck the world into a fiery oblivion." ### Um, gee, how many people missed that line? And the vamp wasn't Morphy? "And fun catching up. I haven't really kept in contact with many of my friends from high school. Guess I'll be looking them up pretty soon." (Jonathan foreknowledge much?) Dawn line: "Are you hurting my mother? Are you keeping her from coming back to me?" Immediately after that is when we get the first image of Joyce being strangled by the monster. Morphy is preying precisely on Dawn's fears as she reveals them. And then Dawn goes and gets angry, telling the beast her mom is trying to talk to her, and boom, there's Morphy's tactic laid right out. H.W.vamp: "Oh well, you know, not my God, because I defy him and all of his works." Um, rather elaborate propaganda phrase for someone who didn't even know the word "sire" and had a problem remembering it (supposedly). "And I thought I was diabolical. Or at least I plan to be.." That second sentence is what's known as a hedge. Had the first been left on its own, Buffy might have suspected something if it hadn't been deflected in another direction immediately afterward. I think we can all surmise that Buffy and Morphy have some undefinable yet close mystical relationship, and Morphy-as-vamp seems to be gloating subtly and hiding it behind hedges and double entendres. "Everyone is[alone], until you[Buffy?] die." There's a good double entendre. Everything's connected, but not in Morphy's preferred way (death, thus burial, thus connected to evil by giving way to the nature of one's physical/mortal self), so thus alone, or everyone's not connected by death until Buffy as the last line of defense dies. What kind of psych major says a line like that anyway? B: You know, that stuff with Spike, it's pretty... V: Hold it. Did you say Spike? (And note once again, where Morphy reacted almost immediately to what Dawn had said, so too does he here) B: What do you mean? How do you know Spike? V: What do you mean how? He was the guy that, um, oh, what's the word? B: Sired.. V: Yeah, he was the guy that sired me. And right there he lets Buffy fill in the blank, gloating all the way at how she's buying right into it (that idea gets planted right at the end as some sort of aside, but like with Dawn, it likely was the big purpose all along).

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 3:54 p.m. CST


    by chickenmonkey

    Okay, twice now blown away. I bet you had "Usual Suspects" figured out on first viewing, too. You know, these TalkBacks really color my day. Tuesday, I felt numb and lame as a result of reading too many bad bwstarwars postings. Today; awake, aware, and looking for connections. Thanks all of you for making my little monkey brain work. ;}

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 3:57 p.m. CST

    earth evil

    by _trick

    I'm not sure you have to make the conclusion that the Earth is evil, but that it is the source of pain. What it is doing is just trying to put an end to pain, much like Willow did. We know from Buffy's return from the dead that it is only when she is not "of this earth" that she is truly happy and connected. And like Holden said, to be alive is to be alone and in pain. As this season's big bad, the earth doesn't necessarily necessitate a fight against evil, but a fight against giving up, which is what Buffy has been psychologically battling, too. It is a battle between pure physicality (which is the source of life and magic) and whatever it is that exists without physicality (maybe where Buffy was when she died). What would be interesting, IF this is the big bad scenario, is if what Joyce said is true: Buffy and Dawn don't wind up on the same side, because essentially Dawn is made up of the non-physical stuff that makes her the key. Her physicality - her life - is secondary to her real nature, so this may be what separates the two of them. Buffy gets her power from the earth, and magic, and the first evil.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 4:51 p.m. CST

    For the nerds in the back...

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Ahem... Xander is SO fat, when he has to haul ass, it takes him TWO trips! Thank you, I'll be here all night. Try the Veal. And remember to tip your waitresses.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 5:10 p.m. CST

    oh the humanity

    by GypsyTRobot

    don't pull this Star Trek "humanity is beautiful and good" bullshit on me. If anything an intelligent earth would want to eat us because we're the plague to end all plagues. Buh-bye biodiversity. Hello exploding homo sapiens species inflicting pain and death on itself and other species on a regular basis. Hello Rwanda, 9/11, Jeffrey Jones sexually abusing kids, Harry typing "MAN IN SUIT" 100 times . . . you get the picture. If I were an alien master race I'd make sure no human ever left the confines of the solar system. In fact who says I'm not???

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 5:15 p.m. CST

    If I were an Alien Race...

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Anal Probes for everyone! Cover your poopers ladies, its time for an abduction...

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 5:56 p.m. CST


    by chickenmonkey

    Don't let your mouth write checks your probe can't cash, bucko.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 6:30 p.m. CST

    Everyone, Chickenmonkey

    by Qwerty Uiop

    They're all brown where it counts, as they say.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 6:31 p.m. CST


    by Qwerty Uiop

    Way to steal MY Angel material, bitch! Did you think you'd get away with it? huh? HUH?

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Yeah, I meant you, godrefla

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Just to be clear.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 6:42 p.m. CST

    "Or did you use the flesh-eating bacteria joke before for David

    by Qwerty Uiop

    As a matter of fact, I did, on the last Angel TB, but I don't really care, I was just being dramatic in a over acting Sunset boulevard kind of way. Any fat Xander joke is a good fat xander joke, if you ask me. That goes for your replacement, too. Good one, my man.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 6:48 p.m. CST

    The Earth Conscience

    by A-Train2000

    Personaly I hope the BB is not the Earth, thats a little too much hippie, circle of life lion king for me. A side from that I been wondering something that maybe someone in the TBs might know. With out sparking a warring debate of the existance of "God" and "Satan" in the judeo-christian belief (becaus it seems to polarize people so) why do crosses and holy water affect vampires in the buffyverse? Other than going with the flow of generic vampire mythology. I started thinking about this when people thought this season's BB was/is the Devil/Lucifer, but people are quick to scream there is no "God" or "Devil" according to Joss in the the buffyverse. So why do judeo-christian holy icons hurt vamps if there is no "God" to suport them, I mean why not the the star of david or the book of islam or buddist items effect vamps as well. Has this question every been answered? Does anybody know? I actualy think it would be quite couragous of Joss to have a "God" and "Lucifer" in his buffyverse since it pushes so many people off the deep end.. By the way Qwerty, you used the two trip-ass hauling joke in the Angle posts. If you have to make lame fat joke at least don't be a repeater.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 6:51 p.m. CST

    By the way Qwerty, you used the two trip-ass hauling joke in the

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Damn, caught with my pants down! Who's up for a probe! (Atrain wants me, everyone, he follows all my posts.) Wouldn't it be cool if they had a jewish vampire hunter who threw Stars of David at the Vampires like a ninja?

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 8:31 p.m. CST

    For the Guy in the Back Row...

    by chickenmonkey

    Are you so named because you arrive late to all entertainments? Well, I don't remember the sequence perfectly, but after the "previously on" bits, there are close-ups of a band tuning up at the Bronze. (People have posted here that the band might be Frente, but nothing is confirmed. The song played is also the same as at the end. The refrain, and perhaps title, is "Where were you?") As the song begins, (and for the very first time in Buffy history) the title of the ep, "Conversations with Dead People" flashes on the screen. Then, a time stamp of "November 12, 8:01 pm" (I may have the exact time wrong, sorry.)During the playing of the band's song, we see Buffy patrolling in the graveyard alone. We see Willow about to doze off studying in the U.C. Sunnydale library, alone. We see Dawn arriving home to an empty house, alone. We see Spike at a bar (perhaps the Bronze), drinking, alone. Then Buffy again, kneeling down near a fresh grave -- a hand thrusts out -- she takes a deep breath and says, "Here we go..." *** Very cinematic. *** After the commercial, Andrew and Jonathan are returning from Mexico under cover of night in an El Camino, whining about their lack of being able to speak "Mexicoan," debating Klingon vocab, and seemingly plotting to join up with the Scoobies. They are returning so as to stop the recurring nightmares -- Jonathan says something in Klingon, and Andrew translates, wistfully looking out the window, "It eats you starting with your bottom." There's some other funny, but I forget. Then we cut to Dawn in "Home Alone 7," and the rest you know.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 8:33 p.m. CST

    Actually, though, godrefla is right.

    by chickenmonkey

    Nothing much happened, except for setting of mood, locations, timeframe, and alibis.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 9:38 p.m. CST


    by monkeychicken

    Bwa Ha Ha Ha Ha! Prepare to taste my wrath and Chickenmonkey Chow Mein! Foolish Alferdog, by speaking my name, you have unleashed a terror upon the land of TB, and sealed the fate of a certain Monkey-With-A-Chicken-Head -- sealed to be basted in his own juices! Again: Bwa Ha Ha Ha Ha! Behold, I am one great pecker! Bwa!

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 10:16 p.m. CST

    Oh, shit.

    by chickenmonkey

    I'm no good at posing as my own evil nemesis. I just realized I typed the damn Monkey-With-A-Chicken-Head thing all wrong anyway. Ah, it's late, I've been working a 13-hour shift (only two more hours to go) and I'm full of free cheeseburgers. Oh, and that e-mail address for monkeychicken is not mine -- it belongs to a friend who once asked me to check her e-mail for her. And she has no idea about all this chickenmonkeybusiness, so please don't spam her. And no, I don't work at DoubleMeat Palace. Actually -- TruthTime: I'm just a freelance Graphic Designer, currently employed as a Reprographics Clerk (Xerox Jockey) at a financial printing corporation in Houston. Chickenmonkey is just a cartoon character I made up last year. Once I get my website up and running, the world (well, at least you) will be able to see him. Sorry to be such a bummer, man. We now return you to your previously scheduled fantasy.

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 11:18 p.m. CST


    by raisingarizona

    ok, so those of you who think spike is morphy - so maybe he's lying about the real spike siring him, right? i'm trying to follow all these posts but there are just too damn many! btw, did anyone else go to that cassie newton website and email "her?"

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 11:24 p.m. CST


    by raisingarizona

    Oh I forgot I wanted to kind of defend Xander. You know Nicholas Brendan got married pretty recently . . . my husband and I can both testify to the fact that this causes weight gain! It's a very depressing fact of life . . .

  • Nov. 15, 2002, 11:36 p.m. CST

    First Evil?

    by ZeroC

    Is it just me or are people jumping to conclusions with all these assumptions that it's the First Evil doing all of this? I mean, the First Evil only appeared in ONE episode, Amends, and hasn't been mentioned since. Seriously, just because there's morphing involved isn't enough evidence for me. On a side note, is it just me, or did the whole "I'm through with balancing the scales between Good and Evil" speech by the Cassie look-alike at the end of the ep sound a lot like something Whistler said in Becoming, Part 1?

  • All the supernatural beings in the Scooby Gang were talked to. It makes sense that Morphy would want to mess with them and not the non-supernaturals. I know my whole theory needs some fleshing out one way or another, but it's the one that makes most logical sense for trying to rattle Buffy the way the rest were rattled. To go abstract, it really seems like this is being set up to be a grand struggle between Heaven and Earth (or Hell, as Holland Manners would have Angel believe), between one's higher spiritual self/soul and one's base instincts and need for power: it really seems to fit with the characters on macro and microcosmic levels as for their struggles getting set up too. Buffy's inferior/human side vs her superior/Slayer side (and come to think of it, putting her in such a confused state makes her vulnerable, more easily swayed to the Dark), Willow's control vs power, Spike's soul vs inner demon.. /// And chickenmonkey, thanks, but when I saw U.S. I wasn't even near as literary-minded as I am now, it's only been in about the past year that I've gotten so hyper-mental. But you are right, this TB is so good it's probably the best I've ever seen. /// _trick, dude, great analysis! /// godrefla, I get what you're saying, but the tactics used against Buffy and Dawn were rather similar is what I mean, there's a certain style there. And HWvamp, well, his lines just seemed a bit off for what was supposed to be a newborn vamp, at least to me, like he seemed to let on that he was more powerful and knowledgeable but hid it with his words so as to get close to Buffy. As for the "diabolical" bit, well, it does mean devil-ish, and it's reminiscent of what Morphy was doing with Dawn not to mention the rest all at once (definitely diabolical in my book). But then again, Morphy may not have been just about rattling Buffy, but about taking away some of her Guilt. The less she worries and frets about doing the right thing, the more likely she'll do the wrong thing, which may mean taking out Spike. It doesn't make sense for him to work on the other three, but not Buffy. ///GypsyTRobot, I wasn't doing anything of the like and never intended it like that. But where else are you going to find a better source of potential Good on earth to wipe out? Besides, the way Morphy/Cassie said it was tired of Good vs Evil, it means it didn't want to fight on that level anymore, but use its innate power to completely unbalance the scales in its favor.

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 1:41 a.m. CST

    the song from the beginning and end of CwDP

    by allnamesaretaken

    if you want to download it you can sign up for this group and then download it. anyways the song from the episode is called 'Blue' the singer is the lead singer of the band 'Splendid'. this is her 3rd time in the show,she was in 'I only have eyes for you' 'The Freshman' and now 'Conversations..' the lyrics of the song were written by Joss Whedon.

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 1:28 p.m. CST


    by raisingarizona

    I must've been half asleep when I wrote that one message - what I meant was, for those who think that the psych vampire was Morphy, maybe he was lying about Spike siring him. I still don't know why he bit that girl at her house though. If it was Morphy possessing him, why wouldn't he have made him do it in a more public place so Buffy would for sure know about it?

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 1:58 p.m. CST

    Spike Question

    by Johnny_Canuck

    I have a quick Q for all who've been rabid Buffy fans for far longer than me. I know some generalities about Spike being captured, getting the chip put in, what the chip does, yadda yadda yadda. However, I need details on a Specific. Two Specifics, actually: 1) What side of Spike's head was the chip put in? and 2) What side has he been holding lately? Just curious.

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 4:43 p.m. CST

    the seal

    by _trick

    After some laborious freeze framing on tivo, I've gotten a closer look at the symbols on the seal of dalzofra-whatever. like dalis said, it is libra and taurus on either side of the typical goats head pentagram, but it has a strange marking on the forehead, as well. looks like the symbol for infinity intersected by the letter C. The infinity symbol is a nice reference to the tarot, which sits in the very same way on the major arcana card called magus (or magician). I think this continues to support the theory that BB is Earth/physicality/the source of all magic. But the 'C' is kind of confusing. Any ideas out there on what this might be?

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 5:09 p.m. CST

    Why willow?

    by _trick

    I'm not convinced yet that Joyce, Holden, or Spike are Morphy, but the fact that Morphy reveals itself specifically to Willow suggests that there is a real link between this season's BB and Willow's power. She was the one that nearly destroyed the earth. She is the one that got to feel all the pain of living things. She's the one that already senses the teeth deep in the earth. This all goes back to the Earth as the BB theory again (I promise I will let it go), but what if this is all because of Willow? She threw off the balance by nearly destroying everything and the Earth is pissed off at her for making the job of balancing good and evil so difficult. It would all be about power then. Not about who is good or who is evil, but who gets to hold it all in check. Willow has overstepped her bounds too many times.

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 6:13 p.m. CST

    by vivia89

    Finally Buffy confesses about treating Spike badly? Yeah, he deserved more I think

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 9:57 p.m. CST

    Re maybe just maybe

    by Corpus

    I'm gonna out On a limb here and agree with you. All of the Dead People were all extensions of this Season's Big Bad. Yes even the pschological helpful vamp. Think about it. With Willow, who catches on, we get a positive identification that whatever is out there wants her dead or gone. Whichever is best... With Dawn we get a reasonable, NOT, copy of Mommy Dearest telling her that she shouldn't trust Buffy. With Buffy we get a sympathetic, newbie vamp who is supposedly able to control his bloodlust around the SLAYER?! Please, so obvious...that the newest big bad was using a guise to get Buffy to open up about all of her fears which she's kept to herself. How convenient was it anyway to make Spike the Sire? Which leads me to the point. I think this season's gonna kick ass. The badie isn't sparing time to play, instead it's going for the characters throats and making good stabs at emotionally manipulating them, through fear and belief. Evil Angel is nothing and has nothing on that. oh yeah this season's gonna be great. I just wish Joss would stop torturing us with lines in the episode all about demon Anya. You know where Buffy accuses/reminds Xander and Willow about them cheering her on when she sent Angel to hell? Really wish they'd resolve that as opposed to leave there hanging.... ah well

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 10:29 p.m. CST


    by raisingarizona

    I don't think I'm blowing any major secrets here by talking about these slayers-in-training that are supposed to show up soon. How can there be slayers-in-training? They are only supposed to be called when the old one dies, so how can these new girls be training for it? I remember Kendra talking the same way - how her parents gave her to her watcher when she was a baby. Why was Buffy not trained this way? Was there some explanation in the original movie or the first episode that I missed?

  • Nov. 16, 2002, 11:31 p.m. CST

    Raising arizona

    by Qwerty Uiop

    Yes, there was. The movie just said that they couldn't find her, but that doesn't matter becuase the movie is largely ignored by the TV show. I remember something about a Slayer in line before Buffy that died in a car accident, so they were unprepared to deal with Buffy and had no one in place to train her. And besides, I'd assume that its hard to convince American parents that your child is the choosen vampire slayer, or has the potential to be one, and to get them to let you take her away for training.

  • Nov. 17, 2002, 1:14 a.m. CST

    Yup, Its' SATAN!

    by delwin

    I am really thinking that its Satan himself. And has anyone noticed that the face on Angel looks like a Satan image???? Maybe there's a connection after all. Both shows say something huge and horrible is coming. And yes, I do think that Morphy was in every aspect of the show, with Dawn, Buffy, Willow and Spike. Joss is proving again he is a genius, because whatever is coming is HUGE!

  • Nov. 17, 2002, 2:47 a.m. CST


    by Qwerty Uiop


  • Nov. 17, 2002, 10:35 a.m. CST

    occam's razor2

    by _trick

    you are right, silveragent. the simplest explanation usually is true, and in the case of Spike/Joyce/Holden, it does seem to require more work than is desirable for TV to justify how Morphy is all of these characters. In fact, that is the most boring explanation. the whole episode can then be reduced to Morphy trying to fool everyone. You don't need a whole episode to show that. What we see on BtVS far more often than not are situations that explore and further the complex psychological motivations of the characters, which is what Joyce and Holden helped do. Obviously, Spike siring vamps is a teaser, but why force it to fit in the same box with all the other events? I say let Cassie be Morphy. Probably Warren, too, but the others probably served enough purpose on their own. The writers aren't going to make it overly difficult to discover who is and who isn't Morphy (because, folks, BtVS isn't Law & Order). What they do want us to wonder is what Morphy is up to. What does it mean by saying "give up the mortal coil?" and "stop balancing good and evil?" and "Not it, me." These are the important clues. Has anybody gone back to look at Becoming 1 to see if there are any textual connections to what Whistler said to Angel? That seemed pretty interesting.

  • Nov. 18, 2002, 4:24 a.m. CST

    want occam? you got him

    by mauk

    how's this for occam's razor?? I submit that this is the last season...and that morphy appeared as all the big bads in the first episode simply because morphy *is* all the big bads and has been since the show started. Morphy has been watching and testing Buffy for the last 7 years and this is the final test. Just an idea - and forgive me if this has already been discussed...I'm new and haven'r read everything....

  • Nov. 18, 2002, 10:04 p.m. CST


    by chickenmonkey

    Fuck last posters. Fuck me up my tight white ass! Tee-Hee!