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Herc Gives BUFFY 7.5 Five Stars!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Buffy 7.5 FAQ
What’s it called?
“Selfless.”
Who’s responsible?
Teleplay is credited to series newcomer Drew Goddard.
What does TV Guide say?
“A wish granted by Anya (Emma Caulfield) has devastating consequences in this alternately witty and wrenching tale. Anya's breakup with Xander (Nicholas Brendon) has driven her to return to her vengeance-demon ways with, well, a vengeance. But that changes after she takes a humiliated coed's desire to make frat boys “feel what it's like to have [their] hearts ripped out” too literally. Horrified by the carnage she has caused, Anya struggles to wash the blood from her hands. Juxtaposed with this “Macbeth”-like scene is a hilarious flashback detailing Anya's transformation from medieval Swedish housewife to demon. Back in the present, Willow discovers the bodies and alerts Buffy.”
What was the nature of the humiliation?
The boys have a game. They lead on girls and then break up with them in front of the whole frat.
What is TV Guide not telling us?
Inviso-text on! Dark Willow is back!!!
The big news?
Before D’Hoffryn named her “Anyanka,” her name was “Aud.” Also? The phrase “From beneath you it devours” makes a return appearance – from a slightly unexpected source.
Did you say Olaf the Troll-God was back this week?
He’s back (in both human and troll form) and funnier than ever!
Does he hunger for succulent babies?
“I am so hungry I could eat a small child,” the pre-troll Olaf confides merrily.
Is it true we learn the origin of Anya’s bunny-phobia?
Not really. We do see that she once liked to breed rabbits.
What’s Anya’s ex up to during all this?
Xander, of course, is a major player in all this. He repeatedly tries to intervene as Buffy sets out to kill Anyanka.
Wasn’t this the one with the flashback to “Once More With Feeling”?
Yes, and it’s a true and moving highlight, a glimpse at Anya at her happiest and most adorable. It’s as if someone decided to add a new number to “Beauty and the Beast” or something! (Listen carefully to the singing outside Xander’s window and you’ll catch the prequel tune to “They Got the Mustard Out!”) Actually, all the flashbacks are highlights, comic counterparts to the very dark situation that’s just emerged in contemporary Sunnydale.
What’s the song called? Was it authored by Joss Whedon, who wrote the songs for “Once More With Feeling”?
Let’s call it “I’ll Be Missus” until we hear otherwise. I noticed nothing in the credits, but the thing sure sounds like it came out of Whedon.
Any hooded figures? Slayers-in-training?
Not this week.
Are Xander and Nancy boyfriend and girlfriend now? I forget how we left that.
Yeah, me too. But one senses Nancy is no longer in the picture.
Any news on Spike’s condition?
Spike has one scene early on, and we see that he continues to hallucinate the big hallucination. Buffy encourages him to get away from the hellmouth already, but Spike counters, “I don’t have anywhere else to go.”
Is Dawn in need of rescue at any point?
No. Like Spike, she only makes a brief appearance in the early going, and then only to help Willow prep for her first day back at UCSunnydale.
Any sign of Giles?
No.
What about Morphy?
No.
Is it true last week’s loveable psychic Cassie Newton left behind a Web site that tells all with regard to the future of Sunnydale?
What’s great?
The comedy, the pathos, the scares, the pacing. Anya, D’Hoffryn, Olaf, Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Spike. Xander’s enduring love for Anya, still strong enough for him to defy even his determined slayer pal. The super-extra-creepy spider demon. The monstrously entertaining flashbacks. The overabundance of generally geniusy dialogue (where pray did they find this Drew Goddard fellow??).
What’s not so great?
The solution is a tad tidy, but if one considers the alternative, the tidiness is more than forgiveable. In truth, this is the kind of “Buffy” we signed up for – all sad and humorous and what have you – and this is rapidly shaping up to be the best season of “Buffy” ever (which is, admittedly, saying a lot).
How does it end, spoiler-boy?
“That’s a start.”
Herc’s rating for “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” 7.5?
*****
The Hercules T. Strong Rating System: 8 p.m. Tuesday. UPN.
To order boxer shorts adorned with the image of a green, handicapable “Buffy” fanatic, click here.
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Another song ... that's ... happy happy joy joy... This soundslike Buffy at it's best. Moving, funny, scary ... all the ingredients that count.
I hope they'll do another season.... -
dammit you all, i had to spend 3 plus hours trying to get this frigging site to work, and on top of it the trailer that is so good is for THE HOT CHICK? BULL POOPIE!
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Ok, well Herc isn't always on the money with the episode ratings (let's not forget the four-star DMP review), but in this case, he's right on the money. This is the best epsode of the season, and really the best one in a couple of years. It's dark, violent, and funny. Although this season has had some high marks, much of the best stuff has happened in the last five minutes. Not so here. I won't spoil, but there will definitely be cause to watch this one more than once, just to catch everything. I don't post much here, but I almost always enjoy reading the TB's. I hope this week doesn't regress into last week's name-calling and insults. Here's hoping Drew Goddard pens more ep's in the future because Buffy's future is decidedly bright (or dark depending on how you look at it).
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I've been trying to get to this review for like 5 hours on and off today! Are you guys still doing maintainance to the site? If so, than stop it! I've been waiting to see this episode since I first heard about it having a musical number, and showing Anya's orgin. If I can't catch the wildfeed, I will definately be taping tomorrow!
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This is going to to be GREAT! I had a feeling it would be when I first heard about this ep this summer. And about the inviso-text spoiler, I said that they needed to have that happen this season or it would be a betrayal of last season's developments! YEEHAW! I am going to have a grin on my face for the next 24 hours! AD out
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....just uploaded to Kazaa for those out of the country, or what have you. Be back with reviewage.... // e.
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No seriously does he. Because Herc here has to be the only critic/fan who thinks this season is the best so far.
Virtually every other critic is bored by it and even hardcore fans are dismayed. Everyone it seems except Herc. I mean the ratings are so bad that UPN is serously thinking of dumping the Buffy before May sweeps. Even the UPN suits think s7 has been a stinker so far.
Honestly Herc we get you like the show, but if your going to give a review please at least give an honest account rather then Joss Whedon puppy love which is what we've got so far this season. -
Smoked Salmon, where the hell do you get this UPN wants to dump Buffy stuff? Where do you get the critic pans? If it is in fact out there, show us...........
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btw,herc forgot to mention that morphy is posing as Buffy in this episode,the odd thing is Morphy!Buffy is alot nicer than the real deal.
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Usually Buffy seasons start off slowly and then get better as time progresses.
Some examples:
Season 5 intro with Dracula... Then we get one of the best seasons to date.
Season 3 with "Anne" .... Then we get a really good season.
etc... etc...
The only seasons that this really didn't happen with is 4 and 6 IMHO.
This season however has had the best overall first set of episodes that I can remember. Sure the guidance conselor thing can be annoying and there are things that you can pick apart but it's looking good. My group of Buffy friends all agree that this season is looking like it is going to be a good one and it's making a good recovery from season 6.
Current ratings are probably caused by loss of viewership during the 6th season and the TOUGH competetion that Buffy is going up against in the Tuesday at 8 PM time slot. There is "Gilmore Girls", "That 70's Show", etc. -
Oct 22, 2002 2:34:42 AM CDT
Oh baby! Give me some of that geniusy dialog any night Herc hone
by junior d-girl
I'm wet already. Rip their black hearts out and turn them all into lezzies, baby! Dark Willow Rules. :-)
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Considering that Morphy turned into Buffy on ep1, I'd say he was on this apisode, as one (or maybe both) of the Buffys that were talking to Spike.
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Allrighty, I've been hearing many a good thing about this ep. I hope it doesn't disappoint. Too bad Emma's song wasn't a hidden track on the OMWF soundtrack that just came out. That would have been cool. BTW, to the poster above ranting about UPN wanting to cancel the show, you don't know jack shit. Ratings overall are up (that's UP), the only downside is the demographics. 18 - 45 they're down. BUFFY is pulling a more consistent audience this year compared to last and word of mouth is growing strong. Notice the increased ratings for STSP over the first two weeks. So while UPN may be discussing how to increase their demographics again (gotta steal away that GILMORE GIRL audience) BUFFY is in no immediate danger of being canceled. Quit reading heresay on other boards and acting like it's the gospel. L8r
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Indeed some fun can be had trading barbs, but only when it doesn't dominate the discussion like it did for awhile last week. It was just a bit mean-spirited, and some don't seem to understand the tone. --- As far as 'Selfless' goes, it will not disappoint. There is so much going on in the DETAILS that there will be be much to be said about it all after everyone gets a chance to digest it all. Tiny bits of dialogue, background scenery, numerous references.
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What's with this talkback? Everything is all out of wacky. Is it that SYSTEM MAINTENANCE movie I keep hearing so much about? =p BTW, I meant "hearsay" not "heresay". Chock that up to a brain fart. L8r
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Tried to post yesterday and it went into a black hole. Loved the "Lady Hackaway" reference. Very good episode. My wife and I are way too old for this show's demographics, but a good show, we already watched the wildfeed yesterday, is a good show. Herc got it right this time. Definitely a five star episode.
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"heresy" then may have just as an appropriate word for the suggestion that buffy is going anywhere. demographics notwithstanding, the numbers are fine enough and buffy now represents one of two signature shows for upn. yeah, wildfeeds are great, but it's hard not to share until 36 hours later. still, with this deep-thinking bunch it's not a bad idea to get a head start. anyone who says this ep does not represent some of the best buffy in a while is just looking for an argument for argument's sake.
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Add two stars for Angel Reviews and subtract two for Buffy Reviews. Buffy has not had a standout episode since "The Body"....or a good season since Season 5.... or any ladies weighing over 50 pounds with ample breast since Cordy Left...People she's a freaking Counsler at the school she blew up how many times do we need to go to the Sunnydale High well?
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Does Joss and Co. have to spell everything out? Bunnies are fertility symbols. Olaf wants to breed.Anya couldn't have babies. Her hips are small like a Baltic woman from a more arid region. Anya is as sterile as a newly-autoclaved ovum forceps. Olaf betrayed her for a fertile load-bearing bar matron. Betrayal=infertility=bad bunnies.
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I'm still not getting this. Anya's willing to lose her life and soul to un-do the wish, when all she has to do is smash her pendant and everything reverses to before the wish was granted? WTF? Is there anything in this episode that deals with this or did the entire writing staff give Godard a pass for not having ever watched 'The Wish'?
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O.K - my Head of Technical Operations: Earth is out to lunch at the moment and people each week keep mentioning this 'Wildfeed' - what on earth is it? Since we are currently orbiting your planet somewhere over England - it will be months before we see this episode - but we do have a modem! Any help we be appreicated and when we conquer the planet I will give you New Zealand and an army of Glory-clones for your basic needs! - Call me Zoddd!!!
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I have to agree that it's a five star ep. I love Anya. I want to hold her and pet her like a bunny.
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Is it like a kitty fantastico?
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Argument for argument's sake? Hell yeah! But. Now, I still haven't seen this yet -so I'm still hoping there's some explanatory implication or some such, but I still don't get how it makes sense for Anya to want to try and kill herself (and destroy her soul) or for Buffy to want to kill her when all they have to do is smash her damn pendant! We even got the rules re-explained for the forgetful back in 'Older And Far Away' No one's calling me on this, and I just know that I'm gonna end up with a headache over it. It may be a five-star episode with the funny and all, but plot-wise, it appears to have been writen and produced by people who haven't bothered to watch the earlier episodes. Or couldn't be bothered to work in a few exceptions to the rule (magickal protection around the pendant, d'Hoffryn putting ber under probation -having lost her pendant LAST time, Anya castng a more recent wish since the carnage, and it's only the LAST wish that gets reversed (Giles smashing it didn't do much for the guy in 'Hell's Bells' did it?),SOMETHING to explain why all the sturm und drang when there's a simple and easy solution.
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Herc has been right giving Buffy really good ratings this season. Every episode has been good so far. Now if he starts giving 4 stars to Firefly i think he might have a penchant for anal sex from Joss or something. Wait just read his FF review, pass that man some lube.
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Took me forever to get onto the board....whassup w/that? This has developed into a sense of urgency - hence the subject of my post: nevertheless, I completely agree that this season is shaping up to be one of the best. Great peformances by all of the cast, good dialogue, great stories - can't wait to see tonight's ep....okay I'm done. NOW let's see where this post will fall on the board.....
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(maintenance) !SYSTEM THE FUCK .ridiculous pretty gettting It's ?TalkBacks these of order the with up is What // I as might put well random these words order in. // I am kind of worried about the Vengeance Demon Necklace Issue. I wonder if I would have even remembered about that had I not read these posts. As for the bunnies, I'm kind of glad they don't explain outright why she's leporiphobic -- explained secrets are never as interesting as a good mystery. Unless it was because some guy wished that he and Anya could f*ck like bunnies and she accidentally granted that wish, and then there she was, trapped in a moldy aquarium filled with the scent of cedar chips, old droppings, and horny bunny glands, with a hot and heavy hairy hare humping her hard against the steaming glass, without lube, until her little bunny eyes almost popped out of her little bunny head. Actually, that should also make her afraid of BadAssUncleFucka.
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I was gonna post on the Aimee Mann/Breeders thing, but AICN was fucked for the last couple o' days.
Cibo Matto didn't form until '94... after Cobain removed the top of his noggin. The band you saw opening for Nirvana and the Breeders was Shonen Knife. I don't know if they're still around or not. They did rock shit up tho'. -
now then, i'm all about story continuity and all. even in a show that pays more attention to complicated story arcs than perhaps any other in history has had a few bumps in the road. remember who was first thought to be spike's sire? anya's pendant never made a return appearance after it was destroyed in season 3. i'm not sure there ever was a good explanation how she did her granting of wishes after she took up the trade again, but it seems the pendant was not involved. let's hold ME accountable, but it's not a hanggng offense given the excellence of the rest of it. and by the way, and again, argument is what keeps this board interesting. it's the personal attacks and misunderstandings that bogged it down before.
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So far we have seen a few Slayers-in-training that get killed. Where are their watchers? Do they get killed also (just off camera)?
Even though the Council and Buffy aren't on the best terms. Wouldn't they notify their "only" Slayer that is out there about the danger? Or wouldn't Giles hear about it from old council friends or contacts?
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Mojo_Jojo - depends on the contest, my friend. If it's "who I want to pet the most" then Anya wins. If it's sheer battle to the death, I gotta go with the bunny. She'd be too scared to do anything useful.
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If it's "who I want to pet the most" then Anya wins. s not so bad. She could be back to bribing homeless men with twinkies to pose for schizophrenia fetish photos. In comparison, fuzzy feelings towards ex-ex-vengeance demons is much more sanitary ;P - DE
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You're just jealous becuase you don't get to watch ;P
-DC -
The sucking wound was created by Clem having taken over a job that was previously Xander's and currently no one's. And now we don't even have the dark bitter Spike funny. We've got kind of a "make your own joke here" thing going on. And I'm not usually as funny as Joss and the crew.
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Were the flashbacks in real Swedish or in Sveedish as in the best traditions of 'The Muppet Show'?.Also is Anya still a demon as d'Hoffrin said that she was out of the vengance business, but didn't say she was fully human again?. Oh and btw Buffy is some cow- the guy is in tortured soul-driven pain -can't she cut him some slack ffs and go kick Clem out of the crypt so that Capt'n Peroxide has an alternative place to rest his tortured bones!
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Does anyone else think that was the saddest thing ever?! I mean, she's been through so much already. She finally has her beautiful non-blonde hair back and she's gone. And without even the benefit of the friendly handshake. For god sakes, Xander, hug the girl one last time. What's she going to do, kill you?!!!!!!
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Great ep! The lines were fantastic. The humor and drama were well-balanced. And I don't think this was a cheap ending. That was totally D'Hoffryn's style, and Anya had been definitely questioning her return to the vengeance biz. And for those wondering, I believe that was true Swedish. Of course, my Swedish is limited to crude compliments and rude propositions. AD out
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Best episode for this season thus far.
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Why is everyone saying that the "nice Buffy" talking to Spike was Morphy? We all know he's a little insane at the moment, he she disappeared way too quickly when the real Buffy appeared, unless he's got some sort of teleporting power or morphed himself into the floor T-1000 style. Anyway, there's no indication at all that it was Morphy and every reason to belive it was Spike hallucinating about what he wants to see and hear.
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This episode was great. Five Stars all the way. Everything about it seemed a notch above the 'average' episode; the action, the continuity, the revelations, the twists, even the soundtrack (anybody else notice the music, or was it just me?) By not reading the spoilers, I had no idea what was coming next - and I felt the emotion of the events. Poor Anya, Poor Hali. And contrary to Silveragents remarks about the end - it was definatley NOT cliche... maybe on paper, but not on screen - try watching the episode before you post your opinions, S.A. The fact that Anya's has to deal with her insecurities is perfect... She's always come across as the most secure Scoob. Great character development. Next week - a rerun already... then I expect we'll get getting heavy into the arc of the season starting with episode 7.6. Sad to think that there may only be 17 episodes left...
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some cool quiz questions here, some spoilers too.
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?2894829471 -
gotta go with doc brown here. not thinking the buffy in white talking to spike was our resident basement dweller. his references to dru's visions kind of alluded to that. to revisit the pendant thing, it looks like hallie and anya were both wearing them in sunnydale, but not in st. petersburg (clashing with the ornate costume jewelry maybe?). anyway, we may never get a great answer for that since it seems to be a moot point anyway. dark willow's reappearance, however brief, is most interesting.
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I totally enjoyed that ep. Here's my thoughts...Spike wasn't talking to Morphy, he was hallucinating. I miss Clem, flappy face and all. I loved the Abercrombie and Fitch line (the offices for A&E are in my hometown and all jokes on them are funny to me) I think Anya deserved a hug, if only for walking away from someone she loved to find out who she truely is. Everyone is still working out the forgiving of Willow, and that is good. Nice to see D'Hoffren noticing her power. I can't wait to find out what is going to be devouring from beneath. OK, enough of my rambling...can't wait to see what the rest of you think.
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are you stupid! of course that thing was the shapeshifter,this is not all in Spike's head,that is what you are supposed to think,just like with the chip last season! but Spike has never met the master or the mayor..so it is not all in his head. and why bring in the old big bads and old characters through the season just for a spike hallucination,when they could save money and not show them at all,that does not compute.
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or just girlfriend/boyfriend. I thought that Xander was the first boy she had sex with. Overall I liked this epsoide, but I agree with an earlier poster the gang seem stuck in the boxes season 6 forced them into. I say forced because it did not seem to be a natural progression.
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I loved this episode,definitely the buffy of old.
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Where indeed did they dig up Drew Goddard? I hope we hear a lot more from him, this was excellent. Who is he? ***** So is next week's episode just a rerun of the season premiere? ***** AND MOST IMPORTANTLY; When do you suppose they'll give Spike more than courtesy face time? I miss Spike. He adds an entirely new dimension to every scene he's in. Also- how many people know Spike has a soul? Were the Scoobies told and I missed it?
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next week is a repeat of Lessons,then we go into november sweeps. it hasn't been shown if the other scoobies know that he has a soul but based on what we've seen in the show only Buffy knows and Anya sorta knows but she probaly hasn't told anyone since its obvious Spike didn't want them to know (he punched her when she started blabbing)
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Not a cheesy ending, perfect way o screw with Aud, er Anya. This epy had everthing, humor, fighting, drama, great lines-the Aberchrombie & Fitch line was priceless. Emma can sing, sing, sing. I hope the Once More With Feeling soundtrack has a Special Edition with that diddy added. Me thinks Joss had alot to do w/ this eppy than just the song. If not have this new guy write more. I can go on and on. So anyone have the balls to say this was a so-so average eppy and back it up?
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Herc, you said no MORPHY, but I spotted MORPHY! DOY! How could you miss that?!? Over all good episode, btw. Best Buffy in a long time. Anyone else here feel like they could watch Buffy and Anya kick each others ass for hours and hours. The Angel speech was awesome and so was Xander calling Buffy on her hypocrisy with Spike and all.
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What are you watching. The great eppy's include Once More With Feeling, Tabula Rasla(spell), the final 4 of season 6, The Gift, Lessons, and Selfless. And they are many more very good and good eppy's. Angel is awesome 2, but to be honest I don't miss Cordy. And it's not better than Buffy. You may have not like season 6 but to say season 7 blows is nuts. If you say Buffy jumped the shark after season 6, you'd have to say she jumped in the water and staked that shark. Buffy's back(she never left IMO).
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Sorry....just had a freshman year flashback....though that humilated coed chick was kinda cute....well, getting back on topic, excellent ep. tonight. The flashbacks with Olaf seriously cracked me up, and I was liking Anya's new veageance demon makeup...very scar-like.
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...those frat boys were there dead a pretty long time. Did no one notice they weren't in class, or having lunch with thier girlfriends or out humilitating other freshmen girls? You know...if I lived in Sunnydale and I don't get a answer to a phone call I'd immediately think the worse and go see. Anyway, nice to see some kind of continuance with the whole Season Two finale Xander being deceitful thang. My jaw kinda dropped there. Cool. And it has to be said again about last week's show: "What kind of lame ass, stupid, Season One-without-the-wit style episode was THAT???"
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I've been a huge Buffy fan since season two and have faithfully followed the show. I was wary when Angel went on the air and have grown to love that show as well. Watching "Selfless" I was compelled to write about what makes these shows so great...and also some of the things that have gone wrong (and right). Buffy has always been a show that took risks. It's very format was riksy: a season-long build up to one final confrontation with a "Big Bad". Many "stand-alone" episodes but that still manage to service the overall plot. Rich characterizations and interactions. Season two was great. Buffy sleeping with Angel and enacting the curse... Him torturing Giles and killing Jenny Calendar. When Buffy made reference to how she had to kill Angel in "Selfless" I was blown away by the emotion. Season 3 was a marvel. The Mayor, the Ascension, Faith, Faith, Faith. And episodes that blew your mind. "The Wish" in particular. The introduction of the Anya character (always my personal favourite). Season 4, which some people have maligned, I also found outstanding. The way they were referencing the entire Initiative plot from the very first ep...the "Hush" episode, even the interaction between Buffy and Riley (granted, not the best character ever, but still...) I loved season four. Season 5 was also kick-ass. Sure, the Dawn thing was a bit convoluted, as was Riley's decision to depart but the interplay of Ben/Glory with the whole madness of the townsfolk when they had their brains sucked. That season really had momentum. I'll get to Season 6 in a minute, but I want to talk about Angel first. Angel's first season was pretty awful. No dominant theme. The weird way they spent so much time setting up the Doyle character just to kill him off (sure Joss said he always planned to do that, but come on!) But then season two and the reintroduction of Darla, a masterstroke. And bringing in Drusilla. I was totally on board. Sure, it went a bit wonky when they went to Pylea but in the end they brought back Fred and she's turned into one of my favourite characters. Season 3 was the shit. The end of every episode made me gasp. Darla staking herself. Holtz taking baby Connor into void. Wow. And now Wesley's turning to the dark side...Wolfram and Hart is getting more and more interesting as Lilah is climbing the ranks (how amazing is it that they've been able to sustain Wolfram and Hart as an adversary over four seasons and never make it boring). To be honest, over the last season I enjoyed Angel much more than Buffy. And that brings me to Buffy Season 6. Oh God, what went wrong?!? Of course, "Once More..." was amazing and I enjoyed an ep here and there...but could the show have taken a worse turn. I know some people will disagree but I think the problem lies in the Spike character. Don't they get it. Spike was a bad guy, he worked as a bad guy. He was even interesting when they brought him back at the beginning of Season 4 with the chip in his head. The moment that character started going wrong was the moment he started developping a crush on Buffy. Oh come the fuck on! Why don't they just give it up. I know a lot of you like this drivel but it destoyed the show last season. I just don't buy it. And the way Buffy justifies how she feels for Spike...it seems to change every week. She loves him? She was using him? She was exploring her dark side? Which is it? And what does Spike see in Buffy? Did they explain that. Some people are saying that Season 7 is shaping up to be great. I don't agree. "Selfless" was amazing...but I'm biased, I'm in love with Anya, think she's the best character in the Buffyverse and have always felt she needed more to do. But overall, the dragging on of Spike's insanity in the basement. James Marsters simply is not convincing trying to portray insanity. And Buffy's reaction to him, non sensical. "From beneath you it devours..." Ominous, for sure, but let's go guys, show us something. By this point in Season 4 we at least new something of the Initiative. In Season 5 Buffy was already figuring out Dawn wasn't her sister. Buffy has gone down in quality. Season 5 was the last great season. I'm never going to give up on it, I've invested too much into it. But Angel is the way to go. This season has been amazing so far what with Fred freaking out and tazering Connor, with Gwen the lightning woman, with the Vegas ep...all genius (yup, the Cordelia stuck in heaven thing is a bit tedious and I'm not sure if I buy Angel's undying love for Cordelia...um, excuse me, don't you love Buffy?). I just wanted to put my very long two cents in.
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Oct 22, 2002 11:17:34 PM CDT
Aww, it could take a few days to figure out that an entire frate
by archdiver
And you guys who think that wasn't Morphy are off your rockers. One, we only know him from his first interaction with Spike. Two, Morphy has not interacted with anyone else. Three, Morphy offers false solace the first time we see him, and this faux-Buffy was doin the same. Four, we have no idea what the powers are of Morphy. Five, if Morphy is First Evil like some think (not including myself), it can torment a vampire with other people in the room. Remember Ms Calendar messing with Angel at Giles' place in Amends? Get with the program, gentlemen! AD out
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I'd say that was about $3.89 worth. AD out
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I understand why everyone is complaining about the necklace. When buffy was saying she has been thinking about dealing with anya for a long time "I was like wait didn't it take Giles one ep to figure out the necklace was her source and don't they remember why she did the spell that brought out vamp willow?" Then I thought "if they smash the necklace don't they just make another dimension but.."
then I got a headache and decided to just watch it and give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean its a show about a vampire slayer.
I still have to say this is one of the best episodes. I love when they show how falable the scoobs are even though they are champions of good(*cough* unlike some "saints" i know); when buffy went off about xander cheering her on when she had to kill someone she loved. And hopefully when we get the big payoff at the series i mean season finale the whole morphy/spike think will be revealed ala glory/doctor dude. -
I believe it was the X-wing squadron's Red leader "Dutch" that said: "Stay on Target." Damn kids....
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something to be said for both sides of this argument. i'm not thinking 7.1 morphy was offering much solace to spike. also, although we don't know what its powers are, that's not proof that what spike was seeing was it. i'm not in the first evil boat either, but angel could see both buffy and miss calendar together. no evidence that was going on the the basement. lastly, what possible motive would this thing have to help spike get through anything, except to keep him in the basement? i'm not going to be surprised if it turns out to be this morphy thing (which didn't morph!), but at this point i'm taking another card before i call.
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Wow. What a kick-ass ep. No real gripes tonight. I loved the real Swedish spoken, loved seeing Olaf back, loved the grainy look they gave the Swedish portions of the flashbacks, loved the partial sequel to last year's OMWF. Overall, a great ep. I just can't figure out why they're running a repeat of the season premiere this early.
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Hey, if you read my post I never say that the being at the end of 7.1 wasn't real. I belive it was for the reasons you stated, but tonite in 7.5 there is no evidence that it's the same thing. Like someone else said Spike even talks about Drusilla, known for being crazy, even more reason to believe that the "nice Buffy" from tonite was a product of his insanity. BTW I loved the Angel speech too, I love Xander but he needed to be put in his place there. Doc out at 88 mph>>>>>>>>>>
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BTw, I have a theory about Morphy/Buffy on tonight's ep. If you noticed, the first Buffy was wearing all white. The second Buffy was wearing all black. My theory is that either one of the Buffys was morphy or both of them were. Or, as someone stated earlier, they were both in Spike's head, and Buffy never really stepped foot in the basement this ep. This could be the start of the audience finally seeing what Spike is seeing. Guess time will tell. Again, great ep tonight. Damn, what I wouldn't give for a job on the writing staff. Good job Drew!
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I think the big bad this season is actually Xander. He's very subtle too. Notice how he's gotten bigger every season while all the women have gotten smaller? Its obvious Xander is some kind of Fat Vampire and he's been sucking the fat from the others this whole time. Judging by how stick thin Buffy is and how large Xander is, he is has obviously kicked the fat suckage into overtime. I hope Buffy wakes up in time to stop this tubby menace. BTW, whats happened to buffy's eyebrows? Apparently theres some kind of eyebrow stealing demon loose in Sunnydale, as well. Is it just me or are the bad guys getting much more pedestrian this season?
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I actaually missed the ep. How, exactly did it end? Does Anya die? What speech about Angel? Dark Willow? Spike Hallucinating Buffy? PLEEEEEEAAAAASSSSE someone help me out. I am kickig myself in the balls for missing this but my damn tivo didn't tape.
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I actaually missed the ep. How, exactly did it end? Does Anya die? What speech about Angel? Dark Willow? Spike Hallucinating Buffy? PLEEEEEEAAAAASSSSE someone help me out. I am kickig myself in the balls for missing this but my damn tivo didn't tape.
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I actually missed the ep. my damn tivo didn't tape. Can someone PLLLEEEEEEAAAASSSE help me out withe facts. A little more in depth than what herc gave?? Did Anya Die? How did they leave it? What comment about Angel? Spike hallucinating about Buffy...maybe? Dark Willow? Is there a new ep next week or no? please help a brutha out.
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oooookay....I just posted three versions of the same posts. Don't I look the fool. Well maybe that will up the chances of someone seeing/replying to it. Don't mean to be annoying....
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The only way Buffy would know about the necklace is ehen they were locked in the house. And if she went to stab Anya, she must have forgotten about it. Did Hallie mention her power was in the amulet thingy in that eppy?
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*beams* That was just wonderful. I must've been recovering from my long day the first time around, but on second viewing I was wrenched in all the right ways.. It's finally happening. The Scoobs are having passionate arguments like we've been having all along! They're dealing with issues!!! They're DEALING! And making constant references! I swear, ME is trying to reference all 122 previous eps in S7.. What fun! I get the whole thing about the pendant issue though I guess it's moot now that Anya is human and not dead. And all the flashback references "goods and/or services" was actually a Willow line mocking Anya with chickens feet in Into the Woods, and the whole thing about Communism! What a 180 she did. And I have to ruminate. The ep was entitled Selfless, mainly to make us think of Anya in a new light, but Buffy was the exact same way. I think ever since Normal Again she's been all Slayer and none of the whiny teen who just wanted to have a life. Buffy's given up a bit of herself, though it seems as though it was the good part about her: this ep she was all darkly driven and nothing else. As for everyone else, all the characters save Dawn had rich things to do and it's nice to see ME can still do simultaneous evolution in one ep. And one last thing about an old debate from last year. This settles it: Vengeance Demons have souls, listen to D'Hoffryn's price.
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finally, ME is proving good on the hopes that they'd use drama for good this season instead of.....well, i won't mention my overall distaste with last year.
But wow. Daffyclan taped it for me while I was at work and damn do i need to say thank you. That was the best Buffy episode in recent memory. I loved how they intercut the murderous intent with the proper ammount of whimsy.
Also nice seeing that D'hoffryn has teeth, instead of being just a "see, he's a demon, but he talks nice a lot. It's totally original, Trust us." cliche. I also really love how they're handling willow now, Aly Hannigan pulls off "cheerful but bittersweet" much better than "broody and miserable". Keeping my fingers crossed that the below-ish devourer lives up to the hype. -
Perhaps I was the only one who noticed this, but for all of you people who are asking why Buffy didn't simply smash Anya's power center aka the amulet...need I remind everybody that nobody remembers The Wish? Seriously, Giles has no idea what he did. Sure, they could research it, but then...this new scooby gang doesn't really seem very in to the whole book aspect of slaying. Anyways, I just wanted to point out their lack of knowledge about that whole incident and throw in my two cents...THIS EPISODE OF BUFFY WAS BRILLIANT!!! And as for Salmon guy? What are you talking about? Where did you get your info? Buffy's scoring about 4.3 million per episode which is about how it normally does. It's consistent and is still one of the higher watched shows--to put things in perspective The Parkers barely makes 3.0 million. There's no way in HELL they're getting rid of Buffy and the fact that you think there haven't been any good eps since the body is just absurd. I mean, just to name one, Once More With Feeling SHOULD have been, according to MUCHO critics nominated for writing and directing and they're even talking about Grammy nominations. And if you need a list of critics that praise Buffy, feel free to e-mail me and I'll give you plenty. OH! Last thing...I also wanted to say how great I thought that entire seen in the living room was where Buffy's going on about how she's the law. Everything about that was just brilliant. Bringing back the whole "Kick his ass" after SOOOO long. That was just great, although I was watching it with my slightly less Buffy obsessed friend and she was mucho confused. Right then...that's all. Great Ep!
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Buffy has been averaging about 4.9 million viewers an episode. This is up over what the show averaged last season about 4.33 million. Also, last Tuesdays episode "Help" went up in viewers to over 5 million.
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Oct 23, 2002 3:20:25 AM CDT
silveragent,you do realize that Joss runs both Angel and Buffy
by allnamesaretaken
so its kinda odd to criticize the runners of Buffy for doing something that Angel does do..when its pretty much the same person,you're giving them props for doing it here and not there,I like that Angel is not the same as Buffy,it would be very dissapointing to see the 2 shows ripping each other's plot lines and atmospheres. even though its the same guy running both shows....very odd.
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Jumping the shark? So many to chose from. Angel Back from Hell. Willow Ghey. The oldest trick in the book:Bring in a baby to make the show fresh, although in this case they have the setting of Buffy to work with so they make the baby a "Key" and a teenage girl named Dawn. Buffy pushing up daiseys again (end of season 5)I mean we all know shes would come back so the pay off was kinda weak. I mean I like the show I even have DVD's and maybe a poster but it just my opinion that the best Buffy's will and can only be seen on FX in the form of re-runs. Although tonights episode did give me a nice slice of some old school Buffy Goodness.
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#1 Very entertaining episode. There's almost too much stuff going on. I'm going to rewatch it tomorrow just to see what subtle details I missed. Outwardly this is an episode centered on Anya, but it revealed a lot about everyone. #2 That's not the last we've seen of Willow's dark side. #3 Do I detect a subtle shift in the foundation of the Scoobies? Could Xander go through some role definition this season? #4 The Buffy we saw tonight was the product of living more than six years over the Hellmouth. Cold, calculated and to the point. When it comes to her Slayer duties Buffy seems to be more matter-of-fact than ever before. Been there, done that. It's almost like she's jaded. #5 Where's the Dawn/Willow rift? All's forgiven? What the f-! #6 There's something in the basement with Spike and it's playing him like a violin. He's going to turn against Buffy. And he's going to think that he'll be the Hero for doing so. #7 Emma Caulfield. Black top. 'Nuff said. L8r
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I don't know if anyone said this already, cause i'm too lazy to read the posts, but that wasn't swedish! one could argue it was viking language, but whatever....
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Loved the part where Buffy brought up killing Angel and how Xander cheered her on at the time, esp the part where she brings up the message from Willow "Kick his ass" and Willow says "I never said that!" because her actual message was that she was restoring Angel's soul.
That little detail has been hanging a long time and Xander needs to face the music on that score. -
So much to say: Do you think she was named Aud because it is pronounces "Odd?" Anyway, the impact of this episode is still hanging over me, something that hasn't happened since Once More With Feeling. It felt like a Joss-directed ep, except for some continuity errors: 1. Xander mentions not having talked to Anya since the worm-boy incident...which would be nice, except they saw each other when Willow was invisible. 2. The lyrics to Anya's song imply that the scene takes place after the "I'll Never Tell" duet, which comes after "They Got the Mustard Out," and yet we hear the mustard being spilled.
But those are minor things. That last scene tore me to pieces. Yes, Xander blew it last year, but with maybe good reason, and you just want someone to have something happy in their lives, and I keep hoping X. and A. will make it through. I just wanted him to embrace her at the end, or for her to follow him, but instead they went in different directions in very obvious symbolism. And by the way, the Soviet Union is Anya's fault? My wife grew up in the SU and she isn't going to be too happy when she finds out...Favorite quote: "The troll is doing an impersonation of Olaf!" Can't wait to see what's to come... -
Another great moment: Anya Jenkins? Otherwise known as "lame-ass made-up maiden name" in the song. And did anyone else notice that OLD WILLOW was back? Old sweet nervous book-loving Willow? I know the darkness lurks there just underneath, but I so like that old Willow, way more than the Willow of the past two or three years. In-love Willow was much less interesting.
And I do not get this whole thing that Angel has been way better lately. The last two episodes of Angel have been so mediocre, and if "Gwen" is going to be a big character this season I am so not interested. Plus, I haven't missed an ep for awhile and Wesley's journey to darkness has seemed so illogical to me, so out of place. I just don't buy it. Buffy rules! -
You know, I thought Anya was the stereotypical "teach the alien how to be human" character, pretty much borrowed from Star Trek, but I was wrong. She's always been rather stiff and literal. And as she said, clinging to whatever came along. Also apparently she used to be a witch, if she comes back into the Scoobie fold perhaps it'll lead to more sexy spell time with Willow. BTW how come no one remembered the one dead guy in the woods? Was that a freebie as far as Anya's conscience goes? That's hypocrite, wasn't Hippocrates the ancient Greek physician who is the root of modern medicine? The Hippocratic oath is to do no harm. (Correct me if I'm wrong here). Willow's outfit was AWFUL! And man, she's getting rude. I thought she was going to tell the weepy co-ed "shut your damn piehole!" Whatever happened to our "softer side of Sears" Willow? Yep the A&F catalog slaughter joke was priceless. I am sorry to see Halfrek die since they never did explore the William/Cecily thing. Nice death though.
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Wow, what a powerful episode. I loved the ending
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So you chipper American's are finally getting the magnificent 3rd season of Buffy on DVD. In January 2003. Well over a year after us forsaken Brits had it. And a couple of months before we get season six on DVD in full Dolby Surround, Widescreen, Once More With Feeling glory. Eben though you get season 7 on TV three months before us. I'm confused.
However you do get it at half the price we do. So that's good huh? I bought the Buffy (season 5 out Monday) and Angel (we're up to season 2 with 3 out next March) DVDs on region 2 and all of them come in a truly gorgeous hardback 'book' with the pages holding the dvd's, which are truly a pleasure to behold. The only exception is Buffy season 1 which is a digipack affair which opens out into a nitty crucifix. So why do my buddy's imported region 1 sets for season 1 and 2 of Buffy (no Angel yet, huh kids?) both come in crappy fold out sideways boxes with no books or crucifixes in sight? I hope for your sakes that FOX US sorts out season 3 and gives you the lovely book style sets because although the content is the most wonderful thing about these sets, the packaging sure is darn sexiful. -
OK, I'm just past the halfway point of the talkbacks (uff da!), and I just wanted to quickly post this --- For people who were wondering why they didn't just smash her necklace and get it over with, remember: it was the alternate-universe Giles who smashed it; no one in the current universe knew about that. They probably could've just looked it up, but I don't think they really equate (Anya + necklace = power) iff (necklace = not busted). :) I'm sure everyone just assumes that D'Hoffryn is the be-all and end-all of the vengeance demon powers.
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Sorry to rain on everyones parade but 5 stars is a bit much. A five star episode would be something like OMWF, The Body, Fool For Love, Hush, Barganing 2, etc. I think this was a good episode and good start to sweeps. But I found it to be just another solid episode, basically what we have been getting so far this year. Where this episodes stands out is in the production value and pacing of present day scenes. I felt that it slowed down with the flashbacks. The flashbacks were not humorous to me at all. I thought they brought nothing new to Anya's character. I have to say that Willow was great in this episode. She was better here than in the Willow-centric episode. Xander was also likeable in this episode. And that has been a while. I loved the scene between Willow, Buffy and Xander at the house. Although, Buffy is becoming a little too preachy for my taste (you...without sin, cast the first stone). Overall, good episode. Just not bowing down to the gods like some people are.
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I know how you feel - whenever I miss an episode I come here to try to find answers but it seems even more confusing - here goes - Anya summoned some sort of spider demon to rip the hearts out of College guys when this chic wished "I wish you can feel for a second what it feels like to have your heart ripped out" or something like that - the guys had a joke of getting with a girl then breaking up with her in front of all their friends as a prank. After the spidery thingy kills all the guys and there is blood everywhere and Anya - not been feeling very vengeful deamony lately anyway - is feeling really bad about what she's done - Willow, going back to college stumbles on the scene - Anya not there - Willow and the wish girl almost get attacked by the spider and Dark willow comes back for a second telling the girl to stop her whining and uses a force field of energy to fend the spider off. Willow finds out about the wish and tells Buffy - after Buffy kills the spider - that it was Anya - Buffy feels she needs to kill Anya and reveals she has been thinking that it might come to this - she is a demon after all. Xanders all
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Oct 23, 2002 1:31:35 PM CDT
Herc's rating is right on the money--and this ep was Awesome, ex
by drath
that lame ass explanation that Willow doesn't have that much power and that she never did. What happened to "no one person's ever had this much power"? No, I don't buy that one bit. It's an obvious attempt to backpeddle their way out of making Willow too powerful, but it doesn't work. Especially since they don't need to bother. If anything her Dark Willow bit this week shows us EXACTLY why she shouldn't try to use all that power again. Maybe Willow was just lying to avoid mentioning that little snag to her friends. I hope so. ------------ My god, this episode was outstanding. You people bitching about Herc's ratings for Buffy, SHUT UP! Just accept it, he LOVES this show. Love isn't rational, and I don't think he claims to be an objective journalist/critic with his reviews either. He's a fan, anyone whose read his reviews can tell, and if you wanted to do anything more than bitch about him you'd have understood this long ago and left it alone. Besides, this episode answered SO much that's been hanging over the show. How much of Dark Willow is still around? Do vengeance demons have souls, and how has Anya changed during her time as a human? D'Hoffryn's interest in Willow and the charm he gave her have finally came into play. And Xander's sonofabitch double standards regarding Buffy and the women in his life finally bit him in the ass! I'd been dying to hear Buffy give it to him over that "kick his ass" thing--and for Willow to set the record straight that he'd lied! As for Anya, at last we see she had a soul, and that vengeance demons are monsters because they are in eternal denial. They don't acknowledge the consequences of their actions, and when they do they convince themselves it was all justified. Halfrek did that when she'd cursed everyone to live in Buffy's house, and Anya tried to do that with the Frat boys, but after all that she's experienced with the Scoobies, she can no longer ignore these consequences. She's been put back in touch with her conscience--not her soul. I am a little curious why Anya(who WOULD know it's the power source no matter who remembers what from "The Wish) didn't just destroy her amulet to undo her wish. Maybe there was a safeguard over it this time--small glitch. And I don't quite agree with Herc that the ending is overly tidy--Halfrek's death was arguably harder than Anya's because as D'Hoffryn said, he went for the pain. No matter what, Anya has to live with blood on her hands, and I think that's worse than her getting off easy with death. Finally, I know there was no morphing, I'm with the camp saying the fake out with Buffy and Spike was First Evil again. I mean, FE stayed in Jenny Calendar's form after a while because it tortured Angel's psyche the most, so that's probably what it's doing with Spike. Eventually though, I think it'll take Tara's face when confronting the Scoobies. It's just so wrong it's right.
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So is it just me, or does Olaf greatly resemble a great, fluffy, harmless teddy bear? How could a big fluffy guy like that be menacing? This is my picture of the typical huge hulking viking: http://www.lostvikingshoard.com/VLT.htm. Olaf isn't real far off.
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Don't be stupid, of course it was morphy. Morphy Buffy was actually nicer than the real Buffy. Buffy really needs to come down off the mountain. I think she could have dealt with Xander better than that. Any and Xander were going to get married and I didn't seem like she was too sensitive to that. She is really turning into the Queen B and worst character on her own show. Am I the only person who didn't feel sorry for Anya? She would have deserved anything she got. Killing 12 people at a college! Has Anya really changed any from the time she became a vengence demon? Also, can anyone explain to me why I laughed when Halfrek was killed? Thank God. Another waste of space gone.
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I don't see why Buffy was so upset. All those dead guys were frat boys, no big loss. In fact, if they had stayed dead, Anya had probably prevented like 10 date rapes a piece from ever happening. Thats 120 date rapes. C'mon people! If Buffy had been thinking clearly, and not been so much under the evil fat vampire Xander's spell as he sucks the fat out of her into his own body, she would have seen that the Frat House cleansing was a good thing. Go Anya!
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I don't see why Buffy was so upset. All those dead guys were frat boys, no big loss. In fact, if they had stayed dead, Anya had probably prevented like 10 date rapes a piece from ever happening. Thats 120 date rapes. C'mon people! If Buffy had been thinking clearly, and not been so much under the evil fat vampire Xander's spell as he sucks the fat out of her into his own body, she would have seen that the Frat House cleansing was a good thing. Go Anya!
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I agree Jinx, its about time Xander was busted. And Daireen's right about the necklace, it was an alternate universe.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know if I believe that was Mr.Morphy. I think it was lonely Spike who wished he could have comfort from the girl he loves. Possible Morphy Buffy was caressing his head. If you noticed when real Buffy walked up, Spike had his own hand rubbing his head. I think he imagined her. I'm still not 100% sure either way, which is why I'm loving this season, I can't figure out the future in Sunnydale, its blank. That's what I like. **** Star ep for me. -
I agree Jinx, its about time Xander was busted. And Daireen's right about the necklace, it was an alternate universe.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know if I believe that was Mr.Morphy. I think it was lonely Spike who wished he could have comfort from the girl he loves. Possible Morphy Buffy was caressing his head. If you noticed when real Buffy walked up, Spike had his own hand rubbing his head. I think he imagined her. I'm still not 100% sure either way, which is why I'm loving this season, I can't figure out the future in Sunnydale, its blank. That's what I like. **** Star ep for me. -
This site is so freaky. And "Q" your killing me with the Fat Xander Vamp jokes. I think the Queen B/Ice Queen/Bufftress/ St. Buffy Aquinas needs to get off her high horse and join the rest of the gang in reality. She's becoming a bigger hypocrite than Xander. Does Anya deserve all the problems she can get? I think so. But Buffy doesn't have to rub it in Xander's face. Who the hell made her "the law"? According to her logic, all the scoobies should be behind bars. And technically, Buffy should kill Spike, Angel, Clem, and Halfrek (oh she's already dead, yea). I do agree with her from last episode when she said she needed to stay away from Spike. Hell, why does she keep going down there? He was perfectly happy talking to Morphy-Buffy until she showed up and drove him crazy. Spike should dump that Biaatch and get sane again. P.S. Thank God Kali Rocha is off the show. Now only if Ats would kill off Cordy, Fred or Gunn I'd be ecstatic. And for those people who say that Angel is better than Buffy, last weeks episode was mediocre at best. What a waste of a location shoot. At least Buffy gives you meat to chew on.
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Xander is muttering about things turning out well. Just because Anya mentions "I'll never tell" doesn't mean it came after. It was happening the same time Buffy sang Going through the Motions, the 1st night of song. This song was pure joy, before they started to learn about the problems.
Saying Buffy jumped when Angel came back is a joke. Season 3 rocked.
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...this season? Just because you have a separate forum for discussion, you can't leave the TB's alone, people! Get with it! // On the flipside, we now have live chat in The White Room, so that's always handy. // I still say it's the best episode since OMWF, and if you spend all your time taking digs at Herc's ratings system, you're proably missing a few other things as well. // e.
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...Season 7 shaping up to be the best ever?! It certainly beats last season, but Seasons 2-3 were the gold medal years.
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an obvious title on its face. it refers to anya's willingness to sacrifice herself. contrast with the selfishness that plagues every character on this show more often than not. so much so that that reverting to form reveals hypocrisy for anyone who is the least bit selfless at any other time. buffy sends angel to hell to save the world, but then hides him from everyone when he comes back. xander and willow cheating on oz and cordy. giles hides his violent past (ethan rayne) at everyone's expense. willow goes dark and hurts everyone at tara's death. xander leaves anya at the alter. dawn all the time. when they're not acting in their own interest, rarely does it turn out well. buffy sacrifices her life and is later ripped from heaven. spike does not give up dawn at glory's torture session, and buffy uses him for a year. anya offers herself up at the end of 7.5, and another dies. there are so many other examples of selfishness for everyone punctuated by brief, mostly fruitless acts of selflessness. the exceptions are the big picture i guess. buffy saves the world, but the cost is she is now a jaded sheriff. xander saves willow and the world, but the price is coming. this show emphasizes balance and price. it has been said there are no truly selfless acts. even if there are, in this show they are expensive.
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Restoring to life an entire fraternity takes a lot more juice than destroying the world. Willow may have been one of the most powerful witches to walk the Earth, but bringing back to life- not resurrecting- would be beyond herculean. If she could have done that, don't you think she could have saved Tara? AD out
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I Have to agree on the most part. It was a really good. I liked the whole Anya thing, The flashback and song. Only one thing bothered me though. It was Buffy. I have watched the show since it started and I have to say she was out of charachter. The new writer may have been okay with the rest of the episode, but he couldn't nail Buffy's character. She did make the decison to kill anya way to quick. And even though he reasons she gave made some sense, It was valid enou to kill a friend and was out of character.
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Although no one remembers the events of "The Wish", I'm fairly certain the Scoobs know that smashing a vengeance demon's amulet = reversing wish/demon loses powers. It was a plot point of that episode last year when Halfrek trapped the crew in Buffy's house (Older and Far Away, I think?). Also, Anya must have mentioned why she was no longer a VD to the Scoobs at one point or another.
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That was the best Buffy since OMWF. Absolutely awesome episode, great comedy, great drama, this is what I've been wanting for the past two seasons. There was some great mirroring going on in this ep, especially the last two scenes (D'Hofrin showing up like Giles, Xander and Anya outside like when she got mad at him for not telling about the engadgement, and Xander walking away shot from behind, opposite of the wedding ep). Really well done, incredibly well thought out stuff. Very impressive. Clearly the regular writers have gotten a bit, well, tired of Buffy. Sad but understandable, it's been seven seasons and Firefly and Angel have such wonderful freshness. Good luck to this new writer, he/she has certainly gotten off on the right foot!
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Oct 23, 2002 9:19:05 PM CDT
The title "Selfless" comes from Anya's identity issues, not her
by roguescribner
Some afterthoughts about the episode: - - - - - - - - - - I'm disappointed that Dawn and Willow seem so buddy-buddy now. Where are the consequences of Willow's actions? She practically cut Dawn's heart out last year and now it's Willow's back and she can be our friend again. Yay! - - - - - - - - - - The confrontation between B/X/W was there for a reason. You couple that scene with the end of the episode and I get the feeling that seeds are being planted for a shift in the group dynamic. Willow is obviously more powerful than Buffy, but she's third string? That flash of Dark Willow not only illustrates her need for power and control but also it serves as a reminder of just how much power Willow could unleash if she chose to. - - - - - - - - - - And I think that thought has crossed Buffy's mind. Hence her big "I am the law" speech. When it comes to the supernatural the line stops at Buffy. Giles isn't around, so it's Buffy's way or the highway. She cannot let doubt enter her mind. That would weaken her resolve. She was full of doubt and yearnings in the early seasons of the series. Buffy is a machine now. When the going get tough Buffy turns into the Slayer-nator. She uploads her mission and does whatever it takes to complete it, leaving no room for side missions. Which explains her seemingly cold interactions with Spike, the fact that she didn't help that kid with the demon bite, her uncaring attitude towards the ghosts (whathaveyou) of her past victims in "Lessons". They were all obstacles to her mission. And once the mission is completed she returns to being happy quippy Buffy for her friends to see. This is leading somewhere. - - - - - - - - - -
So we have the evil (presumably) presence in the school basement ingratiating itself to Spike, the start of a power struggle within the Scooby Gang, an ignorant and conforming Dawn, an ex-vengeance demon wandering the streets of Sunnydale desperately searching for an identity and a principal who knows more than he lets on. Is anyone else getting goosebumps and the groundwork being laid here? I guarantee come episode 7.9 (which I think is the last one of sweeps) we'll all be jumping up in the air in excitement over the beginnings of the plot of the season. - - - - - - - - - - That's it for now. I've rambled long enough. L8r
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extremely valid point about the title, although i don't believe her identity crisis is the SOLE explanation for what is selfless here. this wouldn't be the first time we've has episode titles with more than one meaning. certainly anya's (or aud) definitely has an identity established 1122 years ago. she then says "vengeance is what i am." abandoning her demon ways left her clinging to xander and struggling for sense of self, when it's obvious she was almost exactly what she was before becoming a demon. the song about being mrs. xander harris reinforces this idea for sure. i hope that's what you meant in your post, because that's the way i understand it. nevertheless, i sticking by the notion that the other interpretation applies equally as well.
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Ah, but Willow tried and failed because Tara's death was the result of a human gun, not a "mystical death" like those of the Frat Boys this week(the term was even used in the episode). More importantly, Willow was saying she didn't have enough power to reverse a wish granted by a Vengeance demon. Seeing as the events of "The Wish" proved such a thing was possible for unmagical Giles, it should have been within Willow's abilities--regardless of the fact that no one remembers "The Wish." God I'm such a geek.
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That wuz sadd.
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I'll concede that the ep title may have multiple meanings, but the main one lies in Anya's identity crisis. She never fit in with her village. She wasn't normal enough (in the sense that normal women tend to procreate) to please Olaf. She found a pleasing identity as a vengeance demon, but was it a healthy identity? Was it who she truly was or simply what she had become? After being humanized in S3 she was desperately searching for a new identity. She didn't enjoy being human at all until she latched onto Xander. Xander, despite himself, fell for Anya and she became complacent with being Xander's g/f. And if you'll notice her role on the show has rarely gone beyond that. That's who she had become: Xander's s/o. After the wedding debacle she was desperate for a new identity again. She fell back to the only other one she was comfortable with: vengeance demon. Except after living as a human with Xander for the past few years she'd grown a conscious and the vengeance game just wasn't in her anymore. The frat incident was something she did to force herself into her new identity. Except it didn't work. She's never had a good sense of self. She's always looked to others for her identity. Olaf. D'Hoffryn. The women she granted wishes to. Xander. The Scoobies. She doesn't know who she is or that it's okay to simply be just who she is. She's got a little bit of a Willow-complex here, looking for affirmation from others. The reason she was so destroyed after "Hell's Bells" last year wasn't simply because Xander stopped the wedding. He tore her very identity from her and she was floundering. For the first time since S3 she didn't know who she was or what to do. When the offer to go back to something she knew came up, she took it because it was easy and comfortable and was an instant identity-restorer. She learned in "Selfless" that she isn't that person anymore. And I gather that she'll spend a good deal of this season figuring out who she is and what role she has to play. I hope that makes things clearer. :) L8r
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concessions on both sides then. however (of course), i am reminded of aud's desire to give her excess bunnies to the townspeople in what might be referred to as either a generous or selfless act (thinking of others), or just as an effort to gain the affection of her village. everything that anya did in between that and the end was exclusively selfish behavior. virtually every action between seasons 3 and 6+ were a desire to get, or keep xander, down to her reluctance to even help the scoobs (particularly willow) from time to time. and i do think the title refers to the many backfired acts of selflessness exhibited by all of them at onetime or another. on a purely technical point, your friendly dictionary defines selfless as "without thought for oneself", which can be seen in your interpretation in a frightengly literal sense (as anya is literal): and "unselfish", which can be seen in mine. i like both...thanks for the different point of view.
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I thought it was Spike hallucinating. Maybe you all know something I don't, but for the record, I thought it was a Spike generated illusion. **** Thanks for answering my Spike soul Scooby knowledge question, allnamesaretaken. Thank you kindly. ~Naia
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A demon killed those frat boys. It was brought by Anya's magic but magic did not kill those losers. And let's hope D'Hoffyn isn't psychic and is seeing Anya's death. Let her leave town on her own. That A&F line still cracks me up.
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I've been giving it a lot of thought and I think Anya's bunny fear comes from nothing more than Monty Python. I mean, becoming a demon had to be traumatic, and the bunnies probably served as a happy memory for her, then to see the full power of those evil creatures unleashed, it must have been too much for her.
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They even CALLED them mystical deaths in the episode. Death by a demon summoned through magic is a mystical death, where as deaths rooted in the normal human world are not. That's how they've been playing it.
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Here's my take: The sweet, angelic "let's work this out" Buffy was Spike's hallucination, his secret hope that all would be well, when in comes cranky, bitchy "bite me, you big loser" Buffy which was Morphy just layin on the charm like in the first ep when it mocked Spike in many different forms (including Buffy's).
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This show has gone nowhere since Giles left, except maybe down the toilet. Ok, so this season isn't that bad...but being just that...its gonna take alot more to recapture my faith in this show after having to deal with Buffy doin Spike for a whole year. I think they have about exhausted everything for Buffy to face, except perhaps the devil...bring back Dracula or something cool....the last few big bads blew donkey.
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Sorry. Nope. Anya knows all about her power center. What I have trouble buying is that SHE wouldn't smash her own pendant rather than lose her life and soul. And she must have told the whole gang SOME explanation at the end of 'Doppelgangland' when they were preparing to send vampWillow back. She might have lied, but why? From that episode on they all knew about her being a demon. And she must have told them about the pendant to explain how Willow was able to accidently bring vampWillow into this reality in the first place. So, as far as I can see, EVERYBODY knew about what happened. And Drew Greenberg made a specific point of re-iterating the pendant rules in 'Older And Far Away' just in case anyone had forgotten.
It's not enough to make me like the episode less. It's just weird.
And Anya's song obviously took place BEFORE the 'I'll never tell' song the next morning or else she wouldn't have stopped herself in the middle of that line. Besides, Sweet was only around for about a day. He went away before they would have gone to bed that night. So, before.
And Xander talking to Anya? Well, they were both together in 'Same Time' but they sure didn't do much talking. In the context of the discussion, I'm willing to buy that he didn't consider working with her as the same as dealing with the issue at hand. He still wanted to believe that she was only granting "harmless" wishes.
And Old Willow? Tha was a desperate attempt on her part to try and play the part of who she wishes she still was. I ain't buying it. More than anything else, she wants to be Willow again, and she's doing her best to play the part. Overcompensating much? -
Oct 24, 2002 11:38:53 AM CDT
still not a mystical death and They don't know about Cordy's Wis
by anyawatcher
Drath-Just cuz Xander said it was mystical doesn't make it so. If that is the case all demon kills are mystical. Buffy died from that mystical magic energy portal. That Spider was just summoned. Xander was just hoping it was mystical like Buffy. And why and when did Cordy mention the alternate universe of Cordy's wish-never. When Vamp Willow came they just new she was from an alternate reality. The only time the pendant may have been mentioned was when they were trapped in the house and Hallie came. There is no evidence to support that Anya said anything.
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but, not surprisingly, still very good. every second Will is on screen shines, and Buffy has some wonderful moments as well. i'd give this one three stars. but anyhow, gotta go! work calls!
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Look at what the Buffys were wearing, and consider what appeared to be the continuity of the following scenes when we see Buffy again. Real Buffy was never down in the basement. Logically, Buffy in White was probably Morphy keeping Spike stuck in the basement. Buffy in Black was probably Spike's own hallucination trying to get him out of the basement. Neither was Real Buffy, folks.
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I'm more than willing toacknowledge that no one knew what had happend at the end of 'The Wish.' But at the end of 'Doppelgangland' EVERYONE knew that a. Anya was a vengeance demon b. there was an alternate timeline created wherein Willow and Xander were vampires c. vampWillow arrived here when Anya and Willow tried to do a spell to get the pendant back (from the sofa IN HELL!!!) If anyone can come up with a reasonable lie that Anya could have told the scoobs to explain all this, I'll back down. Otherwise I'm gonna stick to the assumption that she told them the truth.
And how come the police never show up any more? I woulda thought a slaughter at a frat house would have at least involved a few patrolmen. But I guess if the cops couldn;t be bothered to show up when Buffy got shot, why would they care about this? Damn, Sunnydale cops are even worse than Springfield's. -
I think the cops in Sunnydale learned really quickly to genrally not respond to any kind of "strange death/creature/phenomenom" type of calls. I think they used to, and then figured out that they were just the "Ensign Johnsons" of Sunnydale. You want to make it to retirement as a cop in sunnydale, the best rule of thumb is, mind your business.
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TRUE-Scooby's new she was a vengence demon. Talked about many times season 3. The Prom, Graduation Day part 1-2. TRUE-There was an alternate reality where Willow and Xander were vamps. TRUE- VAmp willow came when the pendant spell backfired. But your conclusion that Anya told them anything is wrong. All the demon stories Anya told never mention Cordy's wish or the alternate relhm where Willow/Xander were vamps. It never happened in the Scooby's memory. Vamp Willow told Xander that there was A vamp Xander at end of Dopplegangland. Xander said it was cool to vamp Willow, not Anya. Anya LIED to Willow about the pendant. She could't tell her the truth about it because Willow wouldn't help. At the end of Dopplgangland Anya really wanted to be a demon again but never mentioned how she became human again. It was never brought up in any episode how she lost her demon powers. You can't conclude that she told Anyone anything. The only person she would have told is Xander. And if Xander knew anything about how Anya stopped being a demon he would have done it to save her. And if Buffy knew about the pendant she wouldn't have stabbed her-she obviously didn't remember Hallie getting stabbed and that not working. I'm not even sure why the alternate reality still existed if the Wish was cancelled but I'll accept it. But unless we see or it's referenced I won't accept that Anya told anyone how she stopped being a demon. But Anya did go for Hallies pendant and may have mentioned that was her power souce but I can't remember. If someone has the tape from the eppy where Hallie gets stabbed please look. It was never in Anya's interest to tell the Scooby's the truth about how she lost her powers.
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Does Anya even remember "the wish"? After the pendant is broken and every thing is back to normal, she still tries to grant Cordy's numerous wishes and seems shocked that she can't. Does she herself know that the pendant was smashed in that other reality, or does she think it was just lost? And maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen Anya wearing a new pendant? Is she? Although I admit, I wondered the same thing about the pendant for this episode, but then I remembered that in "the Wish" only Giles knew to smash the pendant, and that was from research. After the pendant was smashed, everything was undone, so it was like he hadn't done the research and in this episode, there was no research at all. Maybe Anya doesn't know her own weakness, because she did misplace her pendant so that Giles found it on Cordelia. Or maybe it was just a continuity mistake.
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exist any more until Anya and Willow's spell at the beginning of 'Doppelgangland' re-created it for the specific purpose of getting back the amulet.
Buffy: "So WHY were you trying to bring back the other Willow from the alternate reality in the first place?"
Anya: "I wasn't. I didn't want her back. I wanted something else"
Buffy: "What?"
Willow: "The necklace. You said it was a famly heirloom. What was it doing in the alternate reality in the first place?"
Buffy: "You lost your necklace in an alternate dimension where everyone was a vampire?"
Anya: "Yeah"
Buffy: "And then you just STOPPED being a demon? What, did your demon license expire or something?"
Anya: "You're being sarcastic. Why aren't you taking me seriously?"
VampWillow: "Are you SURE you don't want me to stay? We could send the OTHER Willow back and it would be SO much more fun."
Giles: "Oh, do shut up. Now, let me see if I have this straight. You wanted this necklace back WHY exactly?"
At which point we're well past the forty-two minute mark of the show, and the "grr-arghh" monster has come and gone. End credits. -
I think the second buffy was actually buffy, because she urges him to move out and I've read spoilers that he and Xander end up living together. At the end, Spike says "I have no where else to go." So, I think the spoiler was right. I can't wait for the Odd Couple wacky fun that will ensue when they move in together. Plus, the shippers will go nuts. And she has been queen bitch to spike lately, at the very least, the first buffy was wishful thinking on Spike's part, if not the First Evil.
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I think Anya's appearance in the singing part was due to what she was singing. Yeah Anya didn't look like that last season during that epi, but she was singing about being someone's little woman ... their wife and she looked the part. She looked like one of those June Cleaver type wives ... even the outfit she had on screamed it, because we all know Anya does not dress like that. The long blonde hair, the sweet wife dress, the way she ran around like the attentive wife. It was part of the song.
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But what's with the instant costume change? Right in the middle of the song Anya changes into her wedding dress! How does that happen? She wished it and it appeared??? L8r
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... but no one else brought up the things that bothered me about this episode (well, accept that they still didn
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maybe it's part of the spell. And on Dopplegangland. Anya still didn't mention Giles smashed her pendant(if she even knew he did) and in that summary-she said she lost it, not how it was taken from her.
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maybe it's part of the spell. And on Dopplegangland. Anya still didn't mention Giles smashed her pendant(if she even knew he did) and in that summary-she said she lost it, not how it was taken from her.
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EVERY SINGLE vengeance spell I've seen on this show has had disastrous results not only for the "victim," but usually even MORE for the wisher. Sure, the girl in the closet got traumatized by insensitive frat boys, but ya think maybe she was slightly more traumatized by a giant spider goring people right in front of her? An abusive ex-boyfriend gets turned into a giant worm that, sure, can't give you a shiner anymore, but can chomp you to pieces from underground! The ones where EVERYONE gets screwed are the worst -- Cordelia's first wish, Dawn trapping everyone in the house, and... umm... I guess the Russian Revolution as well. Not a single person who ever wished vengeance giggled with glee afterward, or was even that wronged to justify the results. Is the point of all this that Vengeance Demons are like the Bad Cops to Buffy's Good Cop -- dishing out tough love with a side of morality sprinkled with a healthy dose of irony? Are they skewed forces of good, teaching lessons by bloodshed? Or just Buffyverse plot devices with interesting personalities? Oh wait...
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I think you're wrong to dismiss Xander's line, the writers put it out there and don't think we're supposed to go second guessing it. Death at the hands of a demon, a supernatural being, is mystical. It's hardly a death caused by the human world, and for argument's sake, there are only two kinds of death: those caused by the human world and those caused by the non-human world(aka mystical, demonic murders, vampire killings etc.) which can be reversed with magic. Even Darla was resurrected after being vamped and staked. Yes, Buffy's death through the portal was mystical, that's the whole reason Willow was able to resurrect her when she couldn't do the same for Tara or Joyce! But that's not even important for this discussion, these deaths were the direct results of a wish granted by a vengeance demon. That's a mystical death. But more importantly, its easier to reverse than most of the deaths we see week to week because it was the result of a wish. In the Wish, Cordelia was killed by vamp Xander and vamp Willow(gee, two demons), not even as the object of her wish but just as a consequence of it, yet that death, and quite a few others, was reversed very easily by destroying the pendant. Given that, Willow should have had enough power to undo the WISH. Maybe she doesn't have a clue about how to do that, but it's not a power issue and I don't like them making it one. I liked the episode, I actually don't find this a tremendous sticking point, but I hate them downplaying Willow's power now after they built her up so much last year. It's a cop out. Thus I choose to believe Dark Willow's appearance is a sign that her *real* motive for not using her full power this week(and probably in future episodes) will be the threat of turning evil again. Certainly messing with life and death again, mystical or not, is a dangerous endeavor for her. Yeah I'm second guessing, but it's a theory based on hints they've laid out.
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Dingoes ate my first post, so here's another try -- fresh squeezed... --------EVERY SINGLE vengeance spell I've seen on this show has had disastrous results not only for the "victim," but usually even MORE for the wisher. Sure, the girl in the closet got traumatized by insensitive frat boys, but ya think maybe she was slightly more traumatized by a giant spider goring people right in front of her? An abusive ex-boyfriend gets turned into a giant worm that, sure, can't give you a shiner anymore, but can chomp you to pieces from underground! The ones where EVERYONE gets screwed are the worst -- Cordelia's first wish, Dawn trapping everyone in the house, and... umm... I guess the Russian Revolution as well. Not a single person who ever wished vengeance giggled with glee afterward, or was even that wronged to justify the results. Is the point of all this that Vengeance Demons are like the Bad Cops to Buffy's Good Cop -- dishing out tough love with a side of morality sprinkled with a healthy dose of irony? Are they skewed forces of good, teaching lessons by bloodshed? Or just Buffyverse plot devices with interesting personalities? Oh wait...
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Was it originally filmed for the musical episode last season but cut because of that episode's running time already running way over? It just looked (EC, NB and the set) and felt like something that had been shot a year ago but wasn't used. Joss didn't want the sequence to go to waste and, thus, that was one of the reasons why this Anya centric episode was written? Is this what happened?
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That was all new material. There are a couple of sly references to OMWF weaved into that scene that wouldn't have made much sense if it aired in OMWF. L8r Oh, P.S. I choose to believe that Willow is playing scared with her power and is choosing not to weild it if she doesn't have to. She probably could have undone Anya's wish, but was afraid of the consequences to herself if she did. L8r
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I agree with RogueScriber. Willow doesn't want to use that much power, because she is aware that the consequences could be major. She is playing it cool so that she doesn't bring on too much all at once and go on power overload.
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Oct 24, 2002 11:15:56 PM CDT
If bringing people back from the dead was so easy, everyone woul
by anyawatcher
It's not that easy to bring someone back from the dead. Buffy died from mystical "Key Energy" There is a huge difference from the way Buffy died and how everyone else died. If all vamp and demon kills were the same as Buffy's death you could bring anyone back. And Xander never said they were mystical deaths, he asked if they were "These are mystical deaths, right?" Willow then says she doesn't have that kind of power ect...Vamp and demon kills are not mystical and can't be reversed with magic. Could Jenny Calendar's death be considered mystical? Angel killed her. Are Wearwolve deaths mystical? nope. Like i said big differance between Buffy and the rest. The vamps and demons that live on earth are part of it and once there when they kill can't be considered mystical. Buffy's death was special and in Bargaining Willow said as much when she said Buffy died from mystical energy.
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for Buffy's resurrection, didn't they use the last Urn of Osiris in the world, which was then broken? So that makes Buffy's resurrection EXTRA special.
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I lay off the whole "Fat Xander" thing, but did you guys see the gut on that kid when he was asleep in the chair. That guy is living well!
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Has it occured to anyone that there is no Morphy, and that it was all just in Spikes head? Or that Spike also has all of these other "peoples" souls in there with him. At some point he has to get the chip out. Then the show will get really good. -
It's not his gut I'm worried about. It's the end view. His butt is expanding faster than Anna Nicole Smith getting out of a spandex dress.
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It is good to see you all of you finally. When Xander left Buffy's to find Anya, his ass is so large, I'm surprised it fit through her door and yeah, the gut in the chair, hilarious. Ah... Fat Xander, so tubby, so stupid.
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I can't believe how academic this is getting. Look, no one said mystical deaths in general are *easy* to reverse, but they ARE reversible where deaths brought about by the human world are, according to Buffyverse continuity, not. Yes, a death caused by a werewolf, vampire, or demonic clown is a mystical death at least in part because a those are a mystical creatures! Why aren't people being brought back all the time then? Because it's HARD and there's usually a cost that's tantamount to another death--Buffy's resurrection having the lightest consquences, unless you count the depression that plauged all of last season. These deaths, those of the frat boys, weren't quite the same as most mystical deaths we've seen because they were tied to a WISH, and it's the magic of that WISH that makes it relatively easy to undo these as opposed to Angel killing Ms Calendar, or even Buffy sacrificing herself(btw, first you say her's wasn't a mystical death, now it is, make up your mind already). There was a cost to undoing the wish in the episode of the same name coincidentally, it was Anya's demon immortality and power. What would have been the cost for Willow intervening this week? I'd like to know, but again her excuse to Xander shouldn't have been about power. Hell, even in the outcome the writers chose, ONE character had to be sacrificed. Are you arguing for argument's sake now? I've read your posts, you're better than that.
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Oct 25, 2002 6:54:12 PM CDT
Why was it then that Buffy's death was the first time they talke
by anyawatcher
What I'm saying is Buffy's death was totally different than anybody else-that's why they could bring her back with the Urn.(And i don't think i ever said her death was anything but a mystical/magical death) I forget the exact words from Willow when she said why they could bring Buffy back. But the writers stressed that point on how Buffy's death was different. The frat guys and everyone else still die in a human way. Vamp-massive blood loss, spider-heart ripped out, wearwolve-ripped apart. The writers have stated you can take Wishes back. That's why these frat guys are alowed to live. That's a better way to put it than I did before. Besides only a vangance demon can undo her own Wish so Willow had no chance to save these guys. Even though I don't think they were saveable because they died a very human death-heart ripped out. On your point I don't agree that all deaths by the hands of vamps and demons are mystical deaths. This has never been stated in any Buffy eppy that I can think of.
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I'm sorry, I misread your post about Buffy's death, my snide jab was unfair and is cheerfully withdrawn. In Bargaining I remember they emphasized Buffy's death was "different," but that was never explained. It seemed to me they meant different from Joyce's hence the reason magic could bring Buffy back fine when it couldn't help Joyce--which had been brought up big time if you'll remember when Dawn tried to resurrect Mommy Summers. Actually, if Buffy's mom died of normal cancer or as a side effect of Dawn's energy wasn't made clear either, but for the sake of saving money on aspirin, let's say that her's was a natural "human" death. I don't think that was proof against my argument at all. But apart from that, I think it's nuts to say having your heart ripped out by a demon is a human death. That's just a silly destinction in my book. But if you agree about the wish, why did you start arguing with me? That was my point before I brought up demon death=mystical. These were mystical deaths because they were the result of a wish and thus were within Willow's range to undo. You said how these weren't mystical at all, but they were on several counts, whether you agree with me or not about demon murder. If I was unclear, I apologize, but we seem to think the same thing about the wish. As for only Anya being able to take back her wish, you're wrong. Giles was able to do it by smashing her pendant before, thus someone else can force the wish to be reversed. Given the build up Willow got last year, she could have done it. There might have been other reasons (she didn't know it was that easy, she's afraid of Dark Willow), but for the hundreth time, it couldn't have been because she didn't have the power as she told Xander when he asked if these were mystical deaths and inferred an attempt to magically undo them.
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