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Herc's Seen BUFFY 7.1!!

Buffy 7.1 FAQ

What’s it called?


Who’s responsible?

Teleplay is credited to series creator Joss Whedon. This is Whedon’s first “Buffy” script since last November’s musical “Once More With Feeling,” and the first season-opener he’s written since season four.

What does TV Guide say?

Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) battles the ghosts of Sunnydale High's past in a lively seventh-season opener punctuated by droll dialogue. Veteran Slayer-watchers will recall that Buffy's alma mater was razed at the end of the third season during a fight with a snake-demon mayor. Now revamped and restored, the school has a new crop of students, which includes awkward freshman Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg). It also has a visitor, Buffy, who can't resist a chance to tour the facility. But her curiosity soon turns to dread when spirits from the old school materialize to harass her. Elsewhere, Giles (Anthony Stewart Head) consoles a guilt-ridden Willow (Alyson Hannigan).

The big news?

Xander’s all fancy! He wears a suit and drives a big car as his many underlings complete work on Sunnydale High. But Herc suspects the young construction mogul will, like the Murray Hamilton character in “Poltergeist” before him, grow troubled over planting the seeds of certain mayhem. How many good guys, after all, knowingly profit from building a facility for children over a hellmouth?

Does the episode feature, as reported in Coax’s 9/11/02 post, a hooded figure in Istanbul attacking a slayer-in-training?


How does Will end up “elsewhere”? Does Giles teleport her? Do they take the Hogwarts Express?

We’re thinking British Air. (By the way, Whedon is said to have ghost-directed all the footage shot in England, and Anthony Stewart Head’s real-life estate served as the shoot’s primary location.)

Between 6.22 and 7.1, did Willow apologize to everyone for nearly destroying the planet?

One suspects not.

Is Willow now drained of all magic?


Can’t Willow just check into a Swiss clinic and have her blood replaced with eight pints of midichlorian-free type-O?

Yeah, Frodo, she’ll get right on that. During her layover on the Klingon homeworld. Cough*nerd*cough.

What’s up with Anya?

Halfrek says Anyanka’s heart is no longer in retribution, and warns that the bunny-fearing entity has picked an inopportune time to stop being the most wicked vengeance demon in the trade. Something big is in the air, and the side of good may not be the place to be. Willow will confirm this “big something” a few minutes later (from 6,000 miles away).

The hellmouth is reopening, right?

Um. Not necessar…

See. Hellmouth. Knew it.


When did Spike get back to Sunnydale?

This is unclear. It may have been a while ago.

When do we first see the resouled Spike?

Late. (But it’s worth the wait.)

Was Spike, as we’ve heard, so busy with self-mutilation over the summer that he neglected his dye-job?

Is true.

Is it true Spike now dwells beneath the new Sunnydale High?

This is what he tells Buffy, and we have no reason to disbelieve.

Say, this is Buffy’s first encounter with Spike since the almost-rape! Is the slayer all “grrr” and fist-shaky?

There’s a lot going on, but Buffy seems mostly concerned for her troubled ex.

Does the slayer start her new job as high school counselor this week?

No, but she’s offered the position by hour’s end. Turns out the new principal has some awareness of Buffy’s history, and sees an upside to having her hanging around.

Is it true the episode ends with Spike watching as something that looks like Warren morphs into Glory, Adam, Mayor Wilkins, Drusilla, The Master and, finally, Buffy Summers?


Is Morphy a product of Spike’s tortured psyche?

Clearly we’re meant to suspect this. But Herc is reasonably certain Spike won’t be the only regular encountering this shapeshifter.

Will Herc continue keeping an eye out for M.K. Fantastico?

Only – and this is a big only – if the more sensitive talkbackers can handle it.

What’s great?

This is the funniest episode of “Buffy” in eons; the slayer, Xander and Dawn all get million-dollar jokes. It’s also a well-paced affair, with a lot of scope. It teems with intrigue and revelation and pathos. Plus? Some nice homages to George Romero.

What’s not so great?

Nothing. "Buffy's" back, baby yeah!

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

“It’s about power.”

Herc’s rating for “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” 7.1?


The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

  • ***** better than we deserve
  • **** better than most motion pictures
  • *** actually worth your valuable time
  • ** as horrible as most stuff on TV
  • * makes you quietly pray for bulletins

8 p.m. Tuesday. UPN.

I am – Hercules!!

To order boxer shorts adorned with the image of a green, handicapable “Buffy” fanatic, click here.

Readers Talkback
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  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:50 a.m. CST

    better late than never :)

    by RogueScribner

    I hope "Lessons" starts us off right. ME needs to deal with the ramifications and loose threads from S6 ASAP and then get on with the good again. The last two years were heavy. It's time to lighten up! L8r

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:53 a.m. CST


    by MYVeryOwnUserID


  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:44 a.m. CST

    Well, My Goodness!

    by EricAlan69

    There certainly hasn't been one of these fun little Herc-views of Buffy goodness in quite some time, and it surely is a fine thing to see again. Ahh, only 17 more hours until the fall truly begins.... Hi, all.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:47 a.m. CST

    ^ "wouldn't have"

    by punkystar

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:20 a.m. CST

    Catherine Bell is hot stuff!

    by Junior D-Girl

    There's some lesbo slash fiction about her on this weird wide web, google if you really want to find it, I thought it was just too raunchy and too nasty. Then again she might like it rough and kinky. This Fluffy episode sounds not so hot Herc, me thinks I am going to be disappointed. :-(

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:21 a.m. CST


    by BRTick

    Buffys almost back! for the love of god, Buffys alomost back!

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:38 a.m. CST

    Is Murray Hamilton in the Deluex Super Duper DVD edition of Polt

    by Monkeybrains

    Well, I for one have enjoyed every season of Buffy (even season 6). WOOOOOO HOOOOO This is the best time of the year. Lets get these new episodes rolling

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:46 a.m. CST

    Hey Herc 2 questions for ya

    by Salmon

    Here goes 1. Any mention of Tara? 2. Do they Scrappy gang suck?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:02 a.m. CST

    Sounds like the First Evil

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    The morphing of all the big bads, starting from Warren and back to the Master, and then finally to...Buffy suggests something ominous. My theory all along has been that the origin of the Slayers (starting from the First Slayer) are tied directly to the First Evil. The First Slayer's powers were derived somehow from the First Evil, I bet. That's why all the Slayer's powers are rooted in darkness. (This would tie into why Faith fell over to the dark side, and why Buffy was drawn to it, too, with Spike.) Essentially, the Slayers are "daughters" of the First Evil.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:06 a.m. CST

    I'm going to sound like an incredible freaking loser here...

    by cozmicmonkeychow

    but then again, it's an AICN talkback so here goes... why on EARTH would Spike's hair have dark roots? Soul or no soul, he's supposed to be a VAMPIRE, so why would his hair be growing if he's technically dead? The same goes for Angel, I saw a screenshot of him somewhere that was supposed to be from the Vegas episode, and he had a touch of a 5 o'clock shadow coming in... I love both shows, but stuff like that just drives me batty! (Only a little bit batty though, I DO have a bit of a life away from the TV so it's not like I lose any sleep over stuff like this... but still...)

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:17 a.m. CST

    What's tbd mean?

    by Gheorghe Zamfir

    As to not spoil myself I like to just scroll to the end and see the rating is and save the meat of the review for after, so what the hell is tbd?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:34 a.m. CST

    TBD=To Be Determined... I think...

    by cozmicmonkeychow

    It makes sense anyway. And to The Poster... Good point. I had almost forgotten about that big ol' ICKY mustache Angelus had in the "Amends" flashback... gah! Anyway, I can't wait to see Dru and the Mayor again, even if it is for just a quick moment in a flashback hallucination type thingy... now all I need is for ANGEL to premire, and I'm set.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:35 a.m. CST

    Just finished can too!

    by rogfa

    Herc is right on, saying this episode is funn-y. And I love the great present Buffy gives Dawn. Everyone will say "It's about freakin' time!" alt.binaries.multimedia.buffy-v-slayer has tomorrow's... err... tonight's episode already posted. If your ISP doesn't offer news, you're out of luck.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:49 a.m. CST


    by Captain Dobie

    Just to back up what The-Poster said, while there are many incosistencies in the multi layered mythology on show here, the hair thing isn't one. Hair (like nails) does continue to grow after death and would continue as long as the flesh remains (for it is that in which it is rooted), therefore a member of the undead could have as much facial, body and cranial hair as a menber of the living. OK, that's my creepy death knowledge put to use.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:53 a.m. CST

    Read the Wildfeed looks good

    by spike fan

    Ok it may not be the best season premire (Still belongs to WSWB). But still is a lot better than some of the scripts last season. And BtVS does seem to be getting the right mix of action/horror/comedy that was missing last season. And the Spike scenes look the highlight. The only real dud spots seem to be the 1)Willow/Giles scene on magic. From what the Wildfeed say's it still looks like the writers are trying explain there way out of the ruination of a great arch while at the same time not give Willow consequences. 2)And of course a lot of set up for Dawn TV and there seemed to be a lot of effort into trying to make her likable for a spin-off (assuming SMG does not sign on again and of course Eliza continues to prefer to do crappy teen movies than play an interesting charachter.)The main problem was they were trying to much and it showed and that was only from reading the Wildfeed! While the whole back to school thing does seem a bit to contrived. But otherwise not a bad episode and looks certianly better than the Freshman and Anne as a premire.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 5:10 a.m. CST


    by jbcool

    That last line of the season 7 opener, ya know, "Its about power," reminded me of Dark Willow from Season 6 in that she said the same line. Coincedence, perhaps? Could there be a connection between the Big Bad and Willow that will be explored? Perhaps Willow tapped into this BB's essence or some delicate BS like that, which is why she is cognitive of its existence. I hope they DO explore the origins of her power(indications seem to think so) this season. Hell, even Dracula sensed it way back(ya know, its "rooted in darkness" yada yada) in Season 5 and the First Slayer as well in Season 4. I was disappointed that they sorta ignored that subplot till now. Moreover, why does this entity morph into the Buffster at the very end? She's no villain, or is she??? the plot thickens...or I'm full of sh@t.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 5:13 a.m. CST

    speculations cont.

    by jbcool

    oops meant to say I hope they explore the origins of BUFFY'S power, not WILLOW'S power. didn't want to get admonished by talkbacks for that semantic debacle.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 5:51 a.m. CST

    sooo...does this mean britney spears ain't gonna be on buffy

    by The Human Bullet

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 7:13 a.m. CST

    Only a bigger dork would think of this....

    by FatXander

    but on spikes hair, think of this. Obviously we know vamps heal and rather quickly meaning they have some regenerative skills the same ones that would make hair and nails grow. just because thier heart doesnt beat doesnt mean they cant regenerate some parts. Now that I am officially aware of my level of dorkdom, i'm going to go put on my star wars pajamas and watch old Babylon 5 eps.....

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 7:34 a.m. CST

    Heh heh...

    by cozmicmonkeychow

    Well, you learn something new everyday, I guess... in my case, every day except this one because I have to be in CLASS when Buffy's on, so of course I'll be sitting there chewing on my pencil and staring at the clock wishing I were home watching my Buffy tape...grr! A thousand plagues upon the evil bastard who decided to have the only section for this course be on Tuesday nights! I mean really, what the hell were they thinking? They must be Friends fans or something, since absolutley nothing of importance is scheduled on Thursday nights... ok, I'll shut up now ^_^

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 8:12 a.m. CST

    Other significant quotes

    by burningbabyfish

    In reading a review by somebody else (that saw the first part - *smile*) - there are a couple quotes by Giles that resonate as likely being just as important as the shapeshifter at the end: "Everything's connected" and "We are all, who we are, no matter how we appear to have changed." Tell me that's not Joss foreshadowing/theme-setting-out :) What it implies, though, is another debate altogether. Couple that with "It's all about power" and I'm curious. *12 hours now!*

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 8:29 a.m. CST

    Buffy Good!

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Ah the summer draught is finally over. Yay. BTW, I heard it was Dark Phoneix Rosenberg who released this seasons BB. Watch it turn out that Buffy is the BB and Faith gets to be the hero. Or...*cringe* Dawn.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 8:40 a.m. CST

    Prediction and wondering whats wrong with Dawn?

    by Entilzha Proph

    I've always liked Dawn - admitadly they did kinda make her whiney, but IMHO, if Buffy didn't have Slayer powers, she'd be quite the whiner as well (and I can think of a few times she was). Actually, what I think would be good if SMG didn't return for another season (and assuming Eliza could be talked into a show), do a show called Faith and Dawn, and have Faith and Dawn be co-slayers, and have willow be their watcher, but she's a watcher in training. In addition, Xander can stay around visa-vie I've always been of the opinion Xander and willow will eventially hook up permantly (which could happen now, since Anya and Xander no longer an item, and Emma has said she'd leave if SMG were to leave). And they could/should make Jonithan a permant cast member, and could make him Faith's boyfriend (ok, I admit, this seems weird, but I see real potential for interest there) and as for Dawn, well, IMHO, there is really only one person she should hook-up with - yes, I am sure it seems cliche, or something, but Dawn and Connor - perfect match IMHO. Don't know how I'd work spike in, but sure I could. So, anybody else think its a good idea? I am curious as to why so many people don't think Dawn can be cool as a next slayer - admitadly a steep learning curve, but she's got a year. - - - - - - - - - - Ok, as for predictions for this year, Im gonna through this thought out - This BB - its somehow related to spike getting his soul back - he is somehow the key, and might very well be what started it. Also, the principle - he's gonna die, but in fact turn out to be a good guy. Also, as for how Amber will come back - since Joss said Amber will be back but not tara - Tara the ghost - I think 1-3 episodes with Willow dealing with Tara's death are definatly needed, similiar to S5 The Body and Forever. Definatly more closer is needed for Tara's death concerning Willow than what we've seen, and being confronted by Tara's ghost, a perfect story for that.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:03 a.m. CST

    Faith and Jonathan

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Are you out of your mind? "Hes like 3 feet tall! What is she Saint Faith?!" Dawn could work if they actually give the char a personality this season and not just make her Buffys personal albatross.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:29 a.m. CST

    Post - but why don't you like her? - ThingsThatTimDog - Fai

    by Entilzha Proph

    ok, first of TTTD, concerning his height - get over it. Just cause he's short doesn't mean he is somehow lacking a personality or something (thats one thing that gets me - there are just certain things people take prejudace towards, for no real reason - short fat and glasses are the top three from what I've heard and seen) And they both have attonement to make (clearly Jonithan almost moved in that direction at the end of last season) similiar to Faith. Both defiantly have been the outsider (Faith when compared to Scooby gang and Jonithan when compared to, well, everything), and both have been increadibly close to suicide, both tried to take something that wasn't there's (Faith and Buffy's Boyfriends and Jonithan in Superstar) - I think there is definat potential for chemistry there. - - - - - - - - - - - - - ThePoster, I read that Emma said she'd stay if SMG would stay on, but admitadly that was awhile ago - has she since said for certain she'd leave? Also, I read about that interview with MT, but I know Joss has said he thinks a spinoff with Dawn at the head would be cool. But back to my original question - why don't you like her? I mean, if I grant she has gone down in S6, but I would argue no worse than anything else in S6 (and quite frankly, I like S6, so I don't think she went down hill at all), and in S5 I thought she was very cool. What don't you like about her????

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:32 a.m. CST

    Let's end the show with a film

    by Da Law

    Everyone knows that SMG is not coming back next season. I think that the show will simply not have legs without her there. She is probably my least favorite character in the Buffy universe, but she is the hub around which the whole show revolves. Sure, they could throw in a hokey Dawn, being a part of Buffy, becoming the Slayer (last season's finale hinted at her fighting abilities) deal, but it wouldn't hold. So, instead of killing the heritage of the show with a pitiful attempt at maintaining the magic, why not end it where it all began...on film? The storyline is already there. What exactly did Angel and Buffy talk about when she came back from the dead? At some point, Angel is going to become human again...that is the end result of that show. And at some point, there is going to have to be a new Slayer (eighty-year-old Buffy may not have the same spunk as the teenager). Why not have the First Evil come to collect with the Powers That Be actually helping the two? If they win, their reward is life for Angel and retirement for Buffy. It's perfect. It's closure. It's Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin standing side by side. If they don't tie up the loose ends with the show, we are all going to be left with a sour taste in our mouth about a show that delighted us, enthralled us, and let the hottie Emma Caulfield do some work outside of 90120.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:26 a.m. CST

    You'd think so...but no.

    by SomeSmeg

    A spin off with Dawns character wouldn't be the best direction for the show. And the fact that there are angry people out there that don't like her isn't really the reason. 1. the chances of a new slayer emerging in the same family one generation apart? astronomical. 2. With Willow as a new watcher, the show could go a different way entirely, the scoobies could still show up, lending their somewhat comic pathetic help to the new slayer. 3. (the main reason) shows that loose the major personality never last long. they dont attract old viewers and the group dinamic is often lost. Be it News Radio, or BVS. A show must be entirly revamped (pun intended) more like a spin off than the same show. Personally, I want to see a show about one of the previous slayers costum drama's kick ass. (and Giles show) Peace, love and bullet proof marshmellows.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Somesmeg - How and why it would work

    by Entilzha Proph

    1. For the slayer power to pass on, at least in the traditional sense, Faith would have to die, and at least as I proposed, she can't. And I don't see Buffy dieing again - SMG, Joss and most in general would want her allive so she could do an occasional guest apperance if she wanted. 2. The slayers in training are being killed off - thats cuting the numbers down significantly, so it opens up the possiblity hugely IMHO (H stand for Honest, not humble) 3. Dawn was created from Buffy - essences funneling a definate posssiblity here - See either Bargainiing or else there is a fan-fic thats an alternative S6, with Dawn as a new slayer and Buffy a vampire, and the arch-nemissis (a good fan-fic BTW, although it hasn't been updated in a long time, and a little too much going on, and a few other minor nitpicks - still a good fan-fic) 4. There can be a whole new group dynamic I think - first, if you work it so Xander and Willow finally hook up, you could have them "adopted" Dawn, which would definatly put willow in a very interesting spot - watcher in training, as well as watcher of the slayer, as well as mother of said slayer. If Faith were kept around, definate angles abound themselves, espically between both Xander and Faith and Willow and Faith. A Dawn spinoff could be made to work (or successor, depending on how you look at it)

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:07 a.m. CST

    Hair, nails, Robin Good and Dawn the slayer (not)

    by Lily Drop

    Hair and nails DO NOT continue to grow after death. That

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:11 a.m. CST

    a response cause im bored

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    I dont dislike Dawn. I think MT is a descent actress and easy on the eyes but the writers have done a very poor job fleshing her out. She had more personality in season 5 than she did last, where her only purpose was to be Buffys personal albatross. Fill the character out and i might watch a spin-off a year or two from now. Jonathan is a loser, its not a height issue. He has ever been portrayed as such and would have zero chance with her. Faith would never go out with him or even sport fuck him. I would sooner believe Dawn would date him than Faith. He might follow her around like a puppy though.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Lily Drop ; Jonithan& Faith

    by Entilzha Proph

    I have heard that theroy Lily Drop, and while I wouldn't rule it out, and might even be willing to bet that its gonna happen, but I hope not. In anycase, concerning Jonithan, well, I do think that a Jonithan and Dawn has potential, (I sure as hell hope we don't see a Dawn and spike, largely because we've done that with Buffy) and as for Jonithan and Faith, your looking at Faith from end of S3 - think of her from Sanctuary and from the few minutes we saw her in the season opener in Angel S2 - she is gonna be in a similiar situation as Jonithan. Faith isn't gonna be the instant graditification girl that she was.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Freshman my ASS.

    by Gellar's Ass

    What, did the monks have Dawn fail a couple of grades just for kicks? **** And one's hair and nails do not continue to grow after death. What actually happens is the skin shrinks back, making them appear to grow. As for Spike's hair... magic. If dead vampires can walk and eat chicken wings, their hair can grow.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:48 a.m. CST

    Entilzha Proph

    by Lily Drop

    You mean my theory isn't original? Darn, I thought I was being so clever, putting the pieces together. I would love to see a Jonathan/Dawn relationship, though, just to see Buffy tell Jonathan to stay away from her sister. That would be worth a chuckle.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:56 a.m. CST

    resigning, not re-siging

    by Entilzha Proph

    same thing (ok, technically, no it isn't, but its close enough for our purposes) - - - - - - - - - I still haven't heard why most people don't like her

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:05 p.m. CST

    First Slayer/ First Evil Connection

    by RenoNevada2000

    It sounds good, but JMS just did it over in the recent Babylon 5 Technomage books with the Technomages and the Shadows. (That was something CRUSADE was going to cover as well...)

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:10 p.m. CST

    Joss doesn't even have a say in it IMHO anymore

    by Entilzha Proph

    Shes been in love with both a girl and a guy - you can't be both and then all of a sudden be one - Oz was not some sort of experimantation. And when did Joss alter his statements about Willow? And when did Emma say for certain she wouldn't comeback even if SMG didn't resign - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And why does everyone think Faith is Bi? I mean, there is absolutely no evidence of it at all. I could be persuaded that she kinda went bi while in jail, as I read or heard somewhere (I think it was about the one chick who was the madam in Hollywood - Heidi Fliess I think) said that she become bi when she went in, and didn't even really realize it

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:11 p.m. CST


    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Its too bad Joss proved to be as nutless as all those carpet munchers who sent him the hate mail this summer. Willow is bi not gay. At least that was the plan until this years Lilith Fair kicked off with a writing campaign to Mutant Enemy. If Joss Whedon was possed by the Ghost of Bill Shakespeare he still couldnt convince me that Willow is gay instead of Bi.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:16 p.m. CST

    No, I don't frequent BBs that much

    by Entilzha Proph

    I've had a couple of bad experinces with them (not Buffy boards, just BB's in general) so I tend to shy away - plua, I hate it when I make a comment, and then get told I am wrong, but never responded to. as for whiners, well, Buffy has done more than her share of whining. Oh, and ment to add to my last post about faith - there has never been any evidence of her being bi - why do people look for it? As I said I could see it somehow having developed in prison, but beyond that, no.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:18 p.m. CST

    Who planted the Talisman?

    by humboldt99

    In this Episode, I don't think anyone explained who planted the talisman, so I suggest that the princiPAL did it. He sees Buffy come on to campus with little sis early on , and then plants it knowing she will stop it before anything serious happens and that she will invariably take the job later on when offered to her so she can protect everybody. I also don't think he's evil, maybe from the counsel but not truly evil. So any other theories or did I just miss the actual explanation in the episode.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:46 p.m. CST

    what is it with all this Jonathon talk?

    by BurlIvesLeftNut

    Jonathon and Faith? ewww. Jonathon and Dawn? EWWW. Jonathon and Tito? Maybe. Listen, if Jonathon comes back, hopefully it will be briefly. Lets not bring in too many reminders about how season 6 sucked. And as far as Willow being let's all just take a deep breath and WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. Like she is going to feel like hooking up with anyone after what she went through.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:51 p.m. CST

    Point me plases

    by Entilzha Proph

    K, I found what where Emma said that she is leaving for sure. Still not finding anything out about Willow all of a suddened permantly being gay. In anycase, short of some sort of prounoncement from willow herself (actually in the show) I ain't gonna be sold. But I am curious as to where he said that. Also, since I haven't seen S3 DVDs (hell, haven't seen S1 DVDs even) could someone provide said info about Faith??

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 12:59 p.m. CST

    Jonithan isn't just a S6

    by Entilzha Proph

    and quite frankly, I still argue S6 didn't suck - It sure as hell wasn't a happy fest, but to be brutially honest, I think what a lot of the problem that people have with it is in reguards it was a depress fest (I'd compare it to Ender's game series) It was an exceptionally low point in her life, and someone in that kind of a normal situation, well, it happens quite often, and they become suicidail. And that kind of personal darkness really depresses people, more so than scare - Anyone who has seen B5 should recall G'kar's quote about the death of Hope - to a degree, thats what this season was - dealing with that kind of death and depression, and people don't like it. In anycase, getting back to Jonithan - quite frankly, who saw Cord and Xand hooking up? I think there could be a lot to do with the Nerd duo, espcially Jonithan

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1 p.m. CST

    Okay, my turn...

    by Psynapse

    Entilzha-Dawn as a slayer just reeks of 'After-M.A.S.H.' or 'Archie's Place' quite frankly, THAT'S why so many people do not want her helming a spin off. EVERYONE ELSE-C'mon folks, everything you need has been supplied in the season opener to guess your way through some major points of the season. Point 1. The new principal is named Robin Wood which has linguistic links to both Robin Goodfellow (Robin Hood to the less literate) AND Puck who just so happens to be a shapeshifter. The Prinicipal's office just happens to be directly above the Hellmouth. We will see a shapeshifter by episode's end who SAYS "we are going back to the very beginning" AND"It's about Power." Point 2. We also have Halfrek telling Anya that something major bad is coming down the pike and that it's a bad time to be a good demon. Point 3. We will see scenes of a slayer-in-training being attacked in another country. Point 4. Willow, all the way in England senses the re-opening Hellmouth in Sunnydale. **SPOILERY SPECULATION: Principal Wood is or represents, the First Evil. S7 will address the ENTIRE slayer issue from a complete reveal of their origins (although Joss already did it in the 'Tales of the Slayer' graphic novel)and it will also include the vengeance demons to a large extent. Okay, who's next??

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:03 p.m. CST

    S6, Dawn, and some other fool shit

    by brother_seamus

    I am a member of a 2 serious minority groups in the Buffy fan community. 1) I really liked season 6. It was like a terribly sobering morning-after what the hell did I do last nite kind of run and it really put all the characters where they needed to be after the events of season 5 (another downer but still very solid.) and 2) I like Dawn. She

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:18 p.m. CST

    one more Jonathan related item

    by brother_seamus

    How great was the opening credit sequence on "Superstar" when they cut in footage of Jon being all badass in his Angel-esque getup? Hilarious...

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:20 p.m. CST

    Dawn is not human....

    by warlock411

    She is the Key given human form. But she is still the key. Does she have a Soul if so where did it come from? Could it be she has part of Buffys soul?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:40 p.m. CST

    New Composer

    by dpc01

    I didn't catch the name, but I noticed that there was a new background music composer on this episode. I've felt that part of the lack of effectiveness of the last two Buffy seasons was due to the loss of Christophe Beck, who contributed much emotion to the show for previous years. His replacement, Thomas Wanker, seemed capable of writing a few good action cues ( that he kept re-using ), but his sentimental stuff was dull. The new guy's handling of the stuff in England and that last scene was very well done. I hope it bodes well for this year, although I still hope that they can get Beck back for a few key episodes ( he did do one episode for both season five and six ).

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:42 p.m. CST

    Angel and Buffy - Jailbait

    by Entilzha Proph

    I mean, if your calling Jonithan and Dawn age differnce too much, then what about Angel and Buffy. In anycase, I still say the perfect compain for Dawn is and always will be Connor - course I bet it ain't gonna happen

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Entilzha-FOR THE LAST TIME

    by Psynapse

    The character's name is spelled "JONATHAN". Jeez mon, I don't mean to flame here but get it right .

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2 p.m. CST


    by Entilzha Proph

    Sorry, I always thought it was Jonithan, not Jonathan, and didn't look that hard. Also, not quite certain I follow you - what do you mean a Dawn Slayer series reeks of After MASH or Archie's Place?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:05 p.m. CST

    Angel was arrested, and be proud to be a geek

    by Entilzha Proph

    Angel got arrested at least 1 time for certian, and its entirely possible he was arrested at other points in his career - almost certainly spike was. Also, not all states have a statiory rape law (don't know if California does) and even then, the implication is Dawn will be 16 this year - She was 14 in S5. Statitory rape laws end at 16

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Entilzha: spin offs...

    by Psynapse

    'Archie's Place' was a spin off of the TV classic that was 'All in the Family'. 'After-M.A.S.H.' was a spin off of the equally classic 'M.A.S.H.' (although M.A.S.H. never did anything for me personally). Both were attempts to hold onto an audience by recycling a few key characters (key? how's that for random synchronicity!)and both blew MAJOR (baby I mean MAJOR) chunks and rather than enthrall the desired audience they drove it away in spades. As we have NEVER been given ANY evidence of Dawn actually having any paranormal abilities nor have we ever seen the slayer lineage ('Tales of the Slayer' IS canon folks.) stay in one family Dawn suddenly acquiring slayer powers would REEK of shark jumping. How's that?(*_^)

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:17 p.m. CST


    by ThingsThatTimDog

    yes Please go bang a 16 year old for all of us. And then when they throw you in jail for statutory rape you will know what 'Jonithan' was talking about with his 'little hands like their girlfriends'.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:29 p.m. CST

    Spinoffs and Statutory rape

    by Entilzha Proph

    k, first off, the question isn't whether the spinoff show has big ties to the original, it has (at least IMHO) always been about whether the stories were good and also whether the acting was good. Also, your gonna have to help me out, as I've never seen or read Tales of a Slayer (and it might be beneficial if someone could give me a heads up as to why its canon is in question. BTW, I probably should add that I am somewhat new to the series, so bear with me) As for Dawn having Paranormal abilities, well - 1 Buffy could somehow be forced to transfer her Slayer essence into Buffy. 2 Dawn could tape into her paranormail side visa vie the key - if you will, it be a bit like Will's magic, or even perhaps what will did last season in racks place unlocked it within her. I am not saying Joss should or would dump this on us out of nowhere, but I see no reason this couldn't be introduced- - - - - - - - - - - - As for Stautory rape, well, I heard it the cutoff age was 16 - if a guy of older age has sex with a 16 year old, he is not committing statutory rape. Besides which, NOT all states have statutory rape laws, and even more important, Dawn doesn't and isn't necassarily gonna jump right in bed with him - I mean, jeeze, she just got her first kiss last season. And she knows sex complicates things greatly - she's seen it first hand with Angel

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:34 p.m. CST

    silveragent - thats why I think

    by Entilzha Proph

    a series called Faith and Dawn would be ideal - To a certain degree, it would allow for more time for Dawn to become a slayer, as opposed to one season kinda thing.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:41 p.m. CST

    name for the spinoff

    by superzario

    How about instead of "Dawn the Vampire slayer" or whatever, they play off of Dawns name. Dawn is the begining of a new day... and let's say Faith does play a part next year how about "From Dushku to Dawn" That's comedy folks.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:42 p.m. CST

    Going back to the beginning

    by 93curr

    Surely doesn't just mean going back to 1997. If this shapeshifter thing-y is actually in league with the first evil, it's far more likely to involve heading back to when demons ruled the Earth, which may also mean that Buffy's gonna have to do some serious work on getting herself back to the state she was in pre-Dawn. The whole beginning of season five was her wanting to understand her origins. Dawn and Glory kinda threw that off base, and the distractions mounted. As we enter s7, Buffy is going to have to work to get back to normal, Spike is going to have to work to get back to normal and Willow is going to have to work to get back to normal. We may be getting a lot mor Kolchak-type monster-of-the-week type scenarios, and they may be taking place in the same location as 1997-99, but their emotional state is on far less solid ground. Personally, I'm looking forward to the day when Dawn brings home an egg and Buffy realises that she really has become her own mother (metaphorically, of course). Hey, maybe we'll even finally find out how Angel came back from Hell. Or is that too much to hope for?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:42 p.m. CST

    Dawn should've been a guy

    by magic_ninja

    It would've been better to see Buffy have a smart assed teenaged brother instead of a completely annoying superficial sister. But oh well, we all know the underlying message in Buffy is that "Guys are bad, girls are good."

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Entilzha: Buffy 101 and Tales of the Slayer

    by Psynapse

    Tales of the Slayer is both a graphic novel and a paperback book that features different stories about some of the different slayers throughout history. In the graphic novel, the first story features the first Slayer and gives her origin and something of an explanation of her powers/destiny. Slayers were created magically by a group of druids who later became the Watcher's Council. A Slayer is a girl with demon essence inside of her and this is what gives her special powers like super strength (to name one). When a slayer dies, another is immediately 'called' and her superpowers awaken. No Slayer has ever 'transferred' their powers. Slayers also have something of an 'ancestral memory' as each one has psychic dreams. Some of the dreams are visions of the past lives of other slayers. some of the dreams are either prophetic or prescient and tap into current mystical events that the slayer is involved in. The likelihood of DAWN being a slayer is astronomical enough to offend even many of the people (myself included) who suspend their disbelief weekly for this show.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:49 p.m. CST

    c'mon people

    by superzario

    From Dushku to Dawn

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 2:55 p.m. CST

    Tales of the Slayer and Dawn as a guy

    by Entilzha Proph

    actually, Dawn was originally intened to be a guy I read somewhere, but somehow it worked out that they couldn't make The key Sibling a guy. As for Tales of the slayer, does it say definative that they can't do some sort of transfer of essence. The other option is this - warlock411 raises a point - technically, she is the key given human form, and that from Buffy - the implication could, and might possibly be, at least IMNHO, that their essences are link. As such, the implication is that the essences of Buffy and Dawn are much closer than normal, even beyond what you would expect for normal relations. See how and where I am going?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3 p.m. CST

    Red that Dawn was going to be a guy!?!

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Were do you get this stuff!? There were casting calls for a Buffy sister near the beginning of season 4. This thread has offically jumped the shark and wandered into truly inane territory...even for a talkback.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Eavesdropper with a comment

    by Da Law

    Sorry to drop in on your conversation but wasn't the reason that Buffy killed herself to stop the dimensional portal to Glory's world was that Buffy and Dawn shared the same blood and she stopped the flow of the blood by killing herself? I took all of that storyline to set it up for Dawn to take over as the Slayer if and when SMG left the show. Since they share the same blood, then Dawn has the blood of the Slayer and thus may have the essence of the Slayer inside of her. Could be totally wrong on that point, but it came to me so I thought I would share.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:07 p.m. CST

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    I was reading that Dawn was originally not supposed to have any blood...

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:12 p.m. CST

    Entilzha, I see where you are going quite well

    by Psynapse

    I just completely disagree with it, that's all. It's a bit of a reach, stretches the show's (fictional) credibility and more importantly FAITH and only FAITH is the best choice for a spin off. Dawn as a character has yet to display ANYTHING that says 'Show helmer' to me. (and quite a few others apparently)

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:13 p.m. CST

    In the original inception

    by Entilzha Proph

    the character of Dawn was a brother - this was before they put out the casting call. Thats what I heard anyway

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:19 p.m. CST

    Oh, I agree

    by Entilzha Proph

    I definatly think Faith should be involved in the next series, assuming SMG doesn't comeback after S7. But quite clearly they aren't going to get rid of MT's character, and if they hooked her up with Faith, it would be perfect

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:27 p.m. CST

    From Dushku to Dawn

    by superzario

    Watch next year when Faith and Dawn Hook up to kick some demon ass everyone will jokingly refer to it as "From Dushku to Dawn". But You just remember I was the first to use it.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:33 p.m. CST

    Here's a thought...

    by cozmicmonkeychow

    what if instead of going with Dawn (or Faith, or whoever you fancy) the Vampire Slayer, they just called it "Slayer" instead? There are so many more options that way... instead of just relying on old Buffy characters to carry the show, they could focus on an entirely new cast instead. They could start with a different slayer in practically any time period that they wanted and follow their lives for however long they wanted... an episode? A season? The whole run of the show? Well, I think a season would be the best choice, but that's just me. In an entire season they could go from the moment she was called to the finale where she dies and another is awakened. Oh, they could even have The Master, Spike, Dru, Angel, and/or Darla pass by from time to time... only every once in a while though, because if they hung around too much it would be overkill. And if they didn't just go with Slayer, another good choice would be a FRAY series. That would kick so much ass....

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:49 p.m. CST

    Once again, just do a Fray series if UPN wants more and SMG want

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    Really, let's end the core series on a high note and not drag it out like what they did with X-Files. Does anybody care about X-Files now after it over-stayed its welcome? I rest my case.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:51 p.m. CST

    My two cents (and yes I do have a penchant for anal sex)

    by DyslexicHeart

    Another spin-off does not sound kosher, I would rather see dead weight cut loose on "Angel" and "Buffy"'s most interesting characters and add them to "Angel". Basically I want to see the "Angel and Spike" show, two vampire's with souls saving people on the streets of Los Angeles. It would be funny, dramatic and full of action. Or Joss can finish both shows off after this season and make an epic film for the silver screen to end it. A "Fray" series or film would be awesome as well. But trust me on the Spike/Angel thing, it would be the Odd Twilight Zone Couple.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:55 p.m. CST

    how Angel got out of hell...

    by BurlIvesLeftNut

    For those interested, I read somewhere (maybe heard somewhere) that Angel got sent to hell by Buffy at the end of season 2, BUT Jor-El talked him out of staying... you know, because the earth needed him and stuff. Jor-El ACTUALLY CONVINCED Angel to not die.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Off topic - B5

    by pkbabylon5

    This is off-topic, but with all the B5 stuff floating around this TB, I just had to ask if anybody knows about anything new in the B5 world. I just heard that the very last license for B5 related merchandise was pulled by the WB - they've ALL been pulled now - which doesn't make any sense because some of the product lines were doing quite well (like Precedence's B5 CCG) when they was pulled, or at least doing well enough for the companies to WANT to renew their licenses. And it's not like the WB LOSES money if they grant a license and the product doesn't sell. The only reason they would pull everything that I can think of is if something new was coming out in the B5 universe and WB thought they could make more money by re-negotiating the licenses. Plus, a buddy of mine who was one of the writers for the B5 magazine and practically lived on set for the last season or two said that someone (I think it was Jeffrey Willerth) mentioned to him that there was something secret that JMS was working on. And then my husband got an email about a month ago from a long ago dead ranger email list from one of the top rangers in Precedence's network saying to keep our eyes open, there may be something B5 coming soon... Does anyone know anything?? Anything at all??? (And I don't mean the DVD set, I already know about that, yippee!!)

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:02 p.m. CST


    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Fuck Jor-El. Fuck him up his stupid ass...with Mr. Pointy.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:03 p.m. CST

    To The Poster and Cozmic Monkey Chow: hair and fingernails DO N

    by Sod Off Baldric

    That's a myth. The reality is that after death, the body begins to lose moisture. Muscles decay and the skin dries out and essentially "shrinks" to fit more tightly to the skeleton. This effect causes hair and nails to APPEAR as though they are still growing, even though they actually aren't. It's a common misconception.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:53 p.m. CST


    by FromHell

    ok ive resisted so far, lets see if i can go till 8 O'clock...

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Poster, I know Joss plans these well in advance

    by Entilzha Proph

    Thats how long ago I am talking about - Back during S3 or whenever they started the planning for S5, or maybe it was just the conceptional stage, Back at the early day, again, in original conception, the Key Sibling was to be a guy.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 4:59 p.m. CST

    Glad We're Not Rehashing....

    by EricAlan69

    ....all of last year's arguments already, 'cause that would truly suck. Take a deep breath, go buy the OMWF CD that came out today, watch the all-new Buffy goodness airing in 3 hours, and spank thy inner moppets. It's about blood, not brains, children, but not necessarily blood spilled hither and yon across the TB's.... Must go find blank tapes....

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 5:04 p.m. CST

    "Once More With Feeling" soundtrack out on DVD today...

    by Darth_Vagina case anyone didn't know

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 5:05 p.m. CST

    I meant CD

    by Darth_Vagina

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 5:57 p.m. CST

    Yawn, urgh....bunch of nummies...

    by Thalya

    I think alot of you people need to start viewing the show for what it is instead of imparting your pathetic hopes and dreams that nowhere near approach the essence of the show. USE YOUR BRAINS PEOPLE. Try for a little depth already. It ain't that hard. Now here are my seasonal predictions for which I will stake a HotPocket each (and note, my pic of me eating a HotPocket for my incorrect take that Spike would become human at the end of S6 will be up very shortly). Now, we will get: 1) Slayer Origins, 2) Council Origins, 3) Key Origins, 4) Hellmouth Origins, 5) The Hellmouth unleashed including "The Big One" earthquake that will rip a crevice from Sunnydale to L.A. so the Fang Gang will be dealing with the same sort of shit as well, 6) The appropriate dentistry for the aforementioned mouth of Hell issue will involve Key blood and the neo-vamp-with-soul, 7) NO SHIPPING WHATSOEVER except for the expected residual Spuffyness which will wax and wane at will, 8) The final shot will be of Willow and Xander left behind, holding hands, just as things were meant to be had there been no such thing as Buffy Summers, the Hellmouth, or magic. There is my take, which I will post somewhere online for all to see (potentially the White Room). I sincerely doubt there will be a spinoff and I'd rather that both Buffy and Angel go out together this season.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 6:09 p.m. CST

    Dont we ALREADY know the ending to the season (or at least the s

    by art_x1x

    I just read Fray issue one again, for the first time in a long while, and i read the thing about all the demons and evils coming back, and "the slayer" destroys them all. Now, i do know that this could mean any slayer, but that this is a bad time to be a good demon comment points towards that direction. While i belive IS something that more then meets the eye about robin, im not convinced that that nessacirily means the first evil. Thats it from me.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 6:50 p.m. CST

    And now you can begin to see my great plan unravel...

    by SatanTheBunnyGod

    For don't you all see it already? The Hellmouth is my Warren and as anyone attuned to the mystic can tell you, my armies are breeding like crazy, slowly making their way to the surface to overrun the planet like even Australia hasn't seen! Soon the primary species will once again rule the world while insignificant offshoots will be bound and gagged by magical catnip!

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 7:45 p.m. CST

    for the first time i see an ep before herc

    by Lelon

    caught this one a few days ago, it was only so-so, but offer a promising season.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:07 p.m. CST


    by cyber

    I just saw the season premier of buffy . It was a great way to kick of the season. The only thing wrong was Spike's curly hair. It looked as nasty as the superman script. An interesting thing wasthat morphing thing called Spike #17. I wonder what this means. My guess is that he may be involved with the morphy thing in attacking buffy, but does not want to help it. But what do I know?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:10 p.m. CST


    by FromHell

    Spike's demented, nuts, totaly batty! It's about power, these words spoken directly to Spike, man he's gonna have a bad trip here peeps. Gile's an Willow was cool, i didnt find it all that funny, but the episode had much more scope than any in last season, this is Buffy, this is what we expect, this is why the show rocks, keep it up ME, cos you blew my bollocks off!

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:11 p.m. CST

    very good episode, What did Spike mean when he said "3 of us in

    by Anyawatcher

    I thought this was suppose to be Dawn and the Scrappies-not even close. It remains to be seen if those 2 will be somewhat regular, but the show is all Buffy. The Spike story and that shape shifting thing look cool, too bad Angel couldn't have been there. All Buffy haters can shut up now.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:13 p.m. CST


    by chasin'thetrane

    Adam was refering to Spike as 17 as in Hostile 17 as he was refered to as in the Initiative

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:13 p.m. CST


    by Anyawatcher

    Hostile 17, season 4.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:32 p.m. CST

    She's right where I want her...

    by DefyThis

    So we're all thinking the girl in question is Buffy, since the thing morphed into her... but maybe it's Dawn? Willow feels that the hellmouth will swallow them all. The shapeshifty baddie says it's all about power - Dawn's Key power, to open the hellmouth? Also, MT is a much better actor when they give her something to do, like they did tonight. Although I'm not sure at this point that she could carry her own show... maybe in a few years, but til then?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:36 p.m. CST

    M.K. Fantastico?

    by Doc Brown

    Who is this M.K. Fantastico that Herc mentioned? Did I miss something?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:38 p.m. CST

    I'm convinced.....

    by Johnny Dagger

    I don't even have Herc's rating for this show, but I'm sure it'll be good. I'm convinced that if Joss Whedon wrote an episode of Buffy in which the characters did nothing, and said nothing, except stare at a wall and literally watch the paint dry on it, than Herc would label it "brilliant" and give it four stars.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:44 p.m. CST


    by RenoNevada2000

    Thank GOd there's another voice of sanity in this Talk Back. Let's all say it together folks- There will be no Dawn the Vampire Slayer! There will be no Dawn the Vampire Slayer! See that's not so hard...

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 9:49 p.m. CST

    season premier

    by lord_ruthven

    Did anyone else think the Adam morph was a little weak? The others were just great. It was even kind of neat seeing Glory again. I'll always love Dru and the Mayor of course. Adam looked like crap though. When Spike said the three of us I take it that he meant himself, Buffy, and the morphing thing.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:17 p.m. CST

    "the three of us"

    by Naia

    Spike, Buffy, and the soul. And I didn't like this episode. I built it up in my head over the summer I guess. I'll watch it again to form an even opinion and post back. It was much better than GG though, at least here Spike got dialogue. So you think they're setting up the same 2 girls and a guy dynamic with Dawn as they did with Buffy? I wonder what their records are. Maybe we'll get lucky and the guy'll turn out to be a skillful thief- good with locks and the like. The beginning Dawn Training scene was great.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:21 p.m. CST

    The sign of a good premiere...

    by Voice O. Reason that it makes you want to watch more episodes. Good job, ME. (And on a side note, its nice to finally be on a talkback not dominated by that fucker Sofa King.)

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:22 p.m. CST

    Good episode but...

    by IAmJacksUserID

    The scrappy gang sucks huge floppy donkey dick, IMHO

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:22 p.m. CST

    How many...

    by FNORDknt

    How many dam refernces to season one, two and three were their. Every other sentence seemed to be a reference...

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:31 p.m. CST

    Wow, this was a good episode!!!

    by joshuaonenine

    I was so siked to see Glory,Warren,Adam,The Mayor,The Master, and Dru at the end.That was just beautiful the way they did that. It totaly caught me off guard.I agree with herc this episode was funny. The only thing i did not get was the chase at the begining. What does it mean??Also, I think that shapeahifter is the new principal. Just a hunch!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:37 p.m. CST

    One Big Bad missing...

    by PyleanJossWhedon

    I seem to recall he was from Season Two, had really poofy hair and wore black a lot. Sometimes he sported a hokey Irish accent. I think he's on another show now. Any word on why he wasn't one of the First Evil morphs?

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Dru, not Angelus...

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    Obviously, they probably weren't allowed to use Angelus because of the Angel-on-a-different-TV-network issue, but consider this theory: Just as it was "confirmed" that Warren was in fact the Big Bad for Season 6, maybe the Mighty Morphin Baddie (the First Evil?) morphing into Dru was telling us that Drusilla, not Angelus, was actually the Big Bad of Season 2. Hmmm? Remember, Spike was/is love's bitch, and a lot of what he did throughout Season 2 was motivated by his love for Drusilla. Joss could have had Dark Willow appear in place of Warren (which would have made sense), but I believe he deliberately had Warren in mind from the start. These six baddies, along with Buffy, are tied together somehow, very likely on a spiritual level.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:02 p.m. CST

    Dru, not Angelus... (ADD)

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    Forgot to add: my point is that for the Season 2 Big Bad character, it could have also been non-souled Spike talking to Spike -- we get to see the old mean and nasty Spike mocking his present self. Old Spike talking to New Spike would have worked, and corresponded with Warren being designated as last season's Big Bad and not Dark Willow. However, I think Joss made it Dru on purpose, and that there is something very significant about this. The consistent thing about the Big Bads depicted in the morphing is that each person was the MOST evil character for that season -- thus, perhaps this means Dru was more evil than either Spike or Angelus.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:16 p.m. CST

    The most evil, not the big bads

    by Rick McCallum

    That does work - the morphing of the most evil characters, not necessarily the ones who were technically the big bads. Another consistent thing is that Warren, Glory, Adam, the Mayor, Dru and the Master were bad guys who have never been redeemed. Dark Willow, Angelus and now Spike are on the path of redemption, so that would exclude these three characters from the morph. The morphing entity assumed the images of the most purest evil characters of the past seasons bads. HOWEVER, tantalizingly, the final form it assumed was Buffy - dum-DUM-DUM!! This further ties into the First Evil/First Slayer speculation. I hope this is what Joss is going for. It makes perfect sense, ties a lot of Buffy's angst from the past seasons together, and raises a very ominous tone for this season. BTW, Dawn was fuckin' HOT and I feel so ashamed to admit that I was checking out MT in a bad way in this episode.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:17 p.m. CST

    Liquid Buffy

    by DarkZero

    From what I've seen, the idea of Dawn being the next slayer doesn't really seem that far out there. People say that the chances of two slayers coming from the same family are astronomical, but really, that's not what we're talking about. Buffy and Dawn are, technically, the same person. Buffy was able to act as the key, despite the fact that the key is supposed to be a person, not a family, and also despite the fact that they look completely different. For anyone that's played either of the Metal Gear Solid games, this is sort of familiar. Solid Snake and Liquid Snake were two people that looked COMPLETELY different from one another, but yet they were actually clones of the same person, just with different genes appearing outwardly - one was dominant and one was recessive. In fact, they were so similar that when their DNA was tested for reasons that I won't go into (I don't want to give TOO many spoilers from these great games), they were identified as the exact same person and someone that had only seen them and didn't know their personal histories thought that that was absolutely impossible. So it's possible that the spell could just say, "Oh, wait. We missed a slayer. She's right here," if a new slayer is called and activate Dawn, mistaking her Buffy in the same way that the portal did.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:25 p.m. CST

    Hey, Thalya...

    by SleazyG.

    ...let us know where we can see you paying your debts off. It warms my heart to see the Hot Pocket tradition continue, even though most of us who initiated it weren't on the ball last season. There will be wagers this season, though, oh yes, there will be wagers. I had a list of rules I developed a long time ago (like a year ago) that don't need to be adhered to, but some of them are good ideas. For example: last season I strongly recommended avoiding placing any wagers until around episode 6 or 8 because when you predict stuff at episode one or two you haven't really seen enough to get a feel yet for where ME is going. Why eat 8 Ham and Crotch Flavored Lean Pockets when you could make your bets a few weeks later and not have to eat any? Just a thought. And we're all pretty fair-minded; if you retract your bets in the next week or two we'll all write it off to youthful indiscretion.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:32 p.m. CST

    Wow, I like(and Prof, no dice on Dru)

    by Drath

    Sorry, Angel was the big bad of season 2 even from Spike&#39;s POV. Drusilla, while a great villain merely represented the villains from the second season, as Warren represented the villains from season 6(give me a break, Dark Willow WAS the big bad, no contest).-------Now this was a fun season openner. Not that I didn&#39;t like last year&#39;s two hour premiere, but Buffy has always had off season openners. There was far more good than bad here. The scrappies weren&#39;t very interesting, but I think there&#39;s adequate room for growth there and they played their minor part well this time out. I liked Willow and Giles&#39;s exchange, don&#39;t know if that "everything&#39;s connected" line is "new agey" or foreshadowing something, but I think it works whichever meaning they want. It was definitely good to hear Giles saying Willow&#39;s sorcery isn&#39;t like an addiction. THANK YOU whoever finally decided to toss that shitty metaphor. As for the big star of the night, the morphing menace, I think that was definitely the third occupant of the room when Spike said "just the 3 of us," because it adds to his other remark that "nobody comes in here." If that&#39;s where the First Evil or some equally nasty entity is hanging out, I&#39;ll BET ghosts and demons don&#39;t like stopping by. This is the basement directly over the Hellmouth afterall. That "everything&#39;s connected" bit sure does seem to tie in to that creature&#39;s dialogue. It has Buffy&#39;s number, eerily echoing her first line of the season as if it&#39;s <gasp> connected to her. And notice how each of the big bads spoke in character, as if they really WERE all appearing, connected by some root malevolence, some, I don&#39;t know, primary wickedness or first evil. heh heh, see what I did there? Okay, hiss all you want, Enterprise talkbackers will understand. Anyway, I liked this openning very much, even the itty bitty part with Anya. It was just right. And is it just me, or does the new principal sort of got the eye for Buffy? And is it just me, or does he actually seem like he could work as a love interest? He&#39;s a long way from Snyder, that&#39;s for damn sure.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:36 p.m. CST

    buffy and the principal

    by DetroitGator

    i think the buffy needs a HUMAN for a companion and the principal seems a good idea...i hope it works out

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:45 p.m. CST


    by The Continental

    1) Take note of the logo in the bottom right corner of your television screen while watching Angel and Buffy. Notice how they are not the same? Hence no Angel. 2) While Angel was the BB in the sense that he was the final battle of the season, Spike was actually the antagonist of the season. And since William was the one getting the show, the Mighty Morphin&#39; Power Villain isn&#39;t going to change in to him, so he chooses his accomplice.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:47 p.m. CST

    The 3 of Us

    by agentsculder

    I thought Spike&#39;s comment referred to him, Buffy, and the Mighty Morphin&#39; Parade of Baddies. But I could be wrong. Go great to see Buffy back. Looks like s7 has great potential. But please, for the love of God, keep the interactions between Dawn and the Scrappy Gang to a minimum!

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:48 p.m. CST

    Drath, I agree with you and Rick now

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    I think Rick&#39;s theory, that the morphing entity was taking on the forms of the most evil characters makes more sense than my original idea (that Dru was the real big bad of Season 2). As he pointed out, Dark Willow, Angelus and Spike are not pure evil -- they have good within them, and each seeks redemption. (There&#39;s a debate of course with Angelus, since, unlike Spike, his soul was forced upon him, but let&#39;s say for the sake of argument that Angelus still isn&#39;t entirely evil because of this.) I like the idea of exploring the idea of Wood and Buffy maybe getting together, but I hope they play this possibility out across the season. It would also throw more twists and turns into Buffy and Spike&#39;s relationship.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:49 p.m. CST

    Shoot, I forgot the Slayer who was slain at the beginning

    by Drath

    That was definitely setting up something, but it didn&#39;t have anything to do with the rest of the episode as far as we know. Is someone trying to control who will be the next to be called? Why else would you hunt down future slayers? Is this tied into Whedon&#39;s Fray or is it something more? I like Fray, BTW, I don&#39;t expect Joss to adhere to it, but I don&#39;t rule it out either.-------Ah shoot, Prof Pop Culture, you updated your theory while I was typing up my long winded post. Sorry though, I still don&#39;t buy it, Angelus was EVIL, while Drusilla was insane. Possibly that and her powers made her more in touch with First Evil, but to say she was in fact more evil is to forget what Angelus did. This guy prayed on her, drove her nuts, then turned her when she took her vows to be a nun. He wanted to suck the world into hell, and while Dru was right there with him, she was, again, insane while he knew exactly what he was doing. He was the most evil of the big bads that season--or any season really. I think it&#39;s more interesting to note that of all the villains to appear in the morph, she&#39;s the only one still "alive" as it were.

  • Sept. 24, 2002, 11:52 p.m. CST

    Ack, we must be typing at the same time

    by Drath

    Thanks, I don&#39;t mean to sound like an ape. I really do feel Angelus was a true monster, but I think there&#39;s something to be said for Drusilla having a stronger connection to this entity. Again, she&#39;s the only one still taking up space in the Buffyverse!

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:01 a.m. CST

    Oh Yes, Oh Yes, Oh God Yes!

    by Cardiff Giant

    This is more like it. I am watching it again right now and I will watch it again after that and I will fall asleep listening to it. I love this show! "You made him French!"

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:02 a.m. CST

    Who Let That Foul Rabbit In Here?

    by KittyFantastico

    I have been telling you all along where the real power in Sunnydale resides, my minions, and those of you already chosen know that we shall have our vengeance this year! No Warren full of hippity-hoppities is going to stop the rise of Miss Kitty Fantastico, and her porcine pimp-daddy, Mr. Gordo! (For those of you with no clue, I am the long- misplaced pet of Willow and Tara, Miss Kitty Fantastico!) I fade in and out at will while I lay my true plans in the background, preparing to send Buffy and the other lot of losers (excepting Mistress Willow, whose heart still lays broken in a bedroom) back to hell! Some of my minions, like Psynapse and 93curr, are already plotting and implementing the Plan, and you shall know my true power! This is a tale too huge to be told at once, and I shall.... (tale. tale? tail. TAIL! MUST CHASE!) POUNCE.....HA! No more of THAT foolishness, you rabbit bastard! Not THIS year! Now, I shall return to my lovers cloven embrace, and shall haunt you in your nightmares, minions and minions to be! MKF

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:03 a.m. CST


    by Saltate

    what did spike say to buffy something about dropping something i couldn&#39;t make it out it sounded like he was mumbling

  • I&#39;m sorry, I couldn&#39;t resist.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:07 a.m. CST

    Semantical. :)

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    Drath, I think our discussion is mainly one of semantics. I do think that Angelus is "more evil" than Dru, but because of the whole Angel-soul thing, Angelus is probably "tainted" by good under what could be the "rules" of the Buffyverse. So that&#39;s the common thing that Angelus, Spike and Dark Willow share, and why it could be said that these three were absent from the morphing line-up. It&#39;s too early to speculate/predict about anything, but already I&#39;m wondering if the First Evil (if this is the Ultimate Big Bad) will even have a definite form this season. I wonder if the final form it will take on will be...Buffy herself. Or maybe it IS Buffy. Maybe the First Evil exists in every Slayer, and the followers are murdering all the Slayer Trainees because then all of their First Evilness will gather up into Buffy (or Faith?). Thus, the final showdown could be between Buffy vs. First Evil in the image of Buffy -- or Buffy vs. Faith (with the First Evil within her), or maybe the other way around (Faith has to pound Buffy who is possessed by the First Evil). I think this season could be about the origin of the Slayer, her/their direct tie to the First Evil, and, ultimately, Buffy&#39;s own redemption.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:39 a.m. CST

    But Prof, you know whose face FE will take

    by Drath

    Tara. We know Amber will be back, we know First Evil likes to appear as recently deceased supporting characters(Ms. Calendar), we know Tara has been the face of the First Slayer before, we know few things could set off Willow like Tara, and...well we don&#39;t know if this is First Evil yet, but we can hope. You&#39;re right, it&#39;s a bit pointless to go on about who&#39;se the most evil. I wasn&#39;t looking at it as the morph showcasing characters who have not in any way reformed, that is these character *currently* are the most evil figures from their season. But there&#39;s those semantics again.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:40 a.m. CST

    Put this show down like a rabid dog!!!!!

    by BLADE

    It&#39;s over.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:41 a.m. CST

    It&#39;s not the Principal

    by coop

    Go watch the Christmas episode from season 3. Angel was being tormented by visions just like Spike and it was the first evil. All signs lead to the come back of the first evil. Back to the beginning, before the bang, before the word.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:42 a.m. CST

    Well that was a waste of an hour

    by Alop

    Seriously Herc can you kiss Joss Whedon&#39;s butt just a little bit more? 5 Stars, yeh rightttttt. That was just a very average ep. massive anvils being dropped all over the place. This show just feels tired, like all there going to do is rewrite the scripts they had lieing around for the cartoon and could never use. Few more points: No shots of Tara in the credits, really what does Joss have against Amber. No mention of Tara in the Willow scenes. Seriously you lose the person you love and go nuts and you dont think she would mention her? The scappy-gang. Yeh they suck Xander: Still a putz. That is all for now.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:42 a.m. CST

    Heeding some good "Lessons"

    by jbcool

    "Lessons" was a pretty good season opener (though my fav will remain to be "When She was Bad" from S2). My favorite part was obviously, and I think everybody will agree, the final scene with the morphing BBs. Did anybody else besides me thought it was surreal to see all the previous BB&#39;s in one scene (it played out better on film then paper). In fact much of the scenes played out better on film, from the hilarious first scene (I thought she hit the heart...hee hee) to the last scene. On to the observations, come on people, the principal is so a Red Herring. Of course, JWhedon is playing off our predictable eyes, otherwise we wouldn&#39;t name him Robin Wood, a reference to Shakespeare&#39;s Puck, which paints him as the "obvious" BB. (I think someone caught that earlier). If he is in any way bad, then either JW has been spread too thin or it will play out better than I expect it to be. Again, First Evil? I don&#39;t know, looks that way, but again either JW has been spread too thin or it play out better than I expect it to be. When did MT get hot? How old is she? Oh boy.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:56 a.m. CST

    About well, everything

    by Doran

    1. M.K. Fantastico is Willow and Tara&#39;s kitten, Miss Kitty Fantastico (hence the screenname of the always great TBer KittyFantastico) 2. I don&#39;t think they are gonna rehash the first evil/first slayer, nor the Dark Buffy. It is really too early to tell. 3. SMG said in the official Buffy mag, the 100 page yearbook (between last issue-4, and next issue-5), that she is contemplating coming back, but it depends on her interests (she won&#39;t decide until spring-ish). I believe NOBODY is signed on for season 8, although that would be great. So pretty much, the fate of Buffy hangs in the balance. 4. I hope they don&#39;t send off Angel at the same time as Buffy. Angel really came into its own last season. 5. FAITH WILL BE BACK FOR A LEAST 3 ANGEL EPS AND 2 BUFFY (I think those numbers are correct)! Eliza seems very greatful, as Buffy jumpstarted her career (much like SMG) and she was gald to return since she was just so busy. 6. Claire Kramer in the new issue of Movieline (see the Beauties on the Beach pictures, about a party held by the mag)! 7. Wow, I feel so organized. ON THE SEVENTH BULLET, I WILL REST! 8. Dawn will not, I repeat WILL NOT, be slayer (slayer-strength slayer, at least). Joss and Marti know that would never work. 9. I think everyone agrees when I say, Season 7 Episode (blank): "Superstar II!" The Jonathan focus was amazing, one of the maybe 2 good season 4 (my least favorite season) episodes. Mayeb not "Superstar II", but something light, a break, kinda comical, to showcase the cast&#39;s comedic talents at least once more. 10. Dawn is a good character. You lazy-ass Harry types are too old to realize (sadly) that my generation (I am 14) is really bitchy, whiny, over-cared for, and just plain annoying. 11. I thought Tara was the greatest character since Oz. But c&#39;mon, IT WASN&#39;T BECAUSE SHE WAS A LESBIAN! They killed off Jenny, didn&#39;t they? 12. BBO: Bring Back Oz. I don&#39;t care how busy he is with some Austin Powers 39809, but JESUS! One of the best characters EVER on television (that is stretching it, but...) In conclusion, give Amber Benson a spin-off (as a ghost!) with Seth Green. "Ex-lovers of Another" we can call it. They really played well together in "New Moon Rising."

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:56 a.m. CST

    About well, everything

    by Doran

    1. M.K. Fantastico is Willow and Tara&#39;s kitten, Miss Kitty Fantastico (hence the screenname of the always great TBer KittyFantastico) 2. I don&#39;t think they are gonna rehash the first evil/first slayer, nor the Dark Buffy. It is really too early to tell. 3. SMG said in the official Buffy mag, the 100 page yearbook (between last issue-4, and next issue-5), that she is contemplating coming back, but it depends on her interests (she won&#39;t decide until spring-ish). I believe NOBODY is signed on for season 8, although that would be great. So pretty much, the fate of Buffy hangs in the balance. 4. I hope they don&#39;t send off Angel at the same time as Buffy. Angel really came into its own last season. 5. FAITH WILL BE BACK FOR A LEAST 3 ANGEL EPS AND 2 BUFFY (I think those numbers are correct)! Eliza seems very greatful, as Buffy jumpstarted her career (much like SMG) and she was gald to return since she was just so busy. 6. Claire Kramer in the new issue of Movieline (see the Beauties on the Beach pictures, about a party held by the mag)! 7. Wow, I feel so organized. ON THE SEVENTH BULLET, I WILL REST! 8. Dawn will not, I repeat WILL NOT, be slayer (slayer-strength slayer, at least). Joss and Marti know that would never work. 9. I think everyone agrees when I say, Season 7 Episode (blank): "Superstar II!" The Jonathan focus was amazing, one of the maybe 2 good season 4 (my least favorite season) episodes. Mayeb not "Superstar II", but something light, a break, kinda comical, to showcase the cast&#39;s comedic talents at least once more. 10. Dawn is a good character. You lazy-ass Harry types are too old to realize (sadly) that my generation (I am 14) is really bitchy, whiny, over-cared for, and just plain annoying. 11. I thought Tara was the greatest character since Oz. But c&#39;mon, IT WASN&#39;T BECAUSE SHE WAS A LESBIAN! They killed off Jenny, didn&#39;t they? 12. BBO: Bring Back Oz. I don&#39;t care how busy he is with some Austin Powers 39809, but JESUS! One of the best characters EVER on television (that is stretching it, but...) In conclusion, give Amber Benson a spin-off (as a ghost!) with Seth Green. "Ex-lovers of Another" we can call it. They really played well together in "New Moon Rising."

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:58 a.m. CST

    a word to the DAWN naysayers... and LAST!!! (BWAHAHAHA)

    by SkiffyPup

    Need I remind you fanboys that Buffy aka SMG was once a nobody child/working-actor in a daytime soap??? I liked her back then... ( Yeah, between jobs.) Did you even ever see her???////// MT will have to win us over in the same way... Its her triumph or failure.... So, lets wait and see if she BUDS or DUDS (trademark!)... and I wish her luck.//// THAT SAID-- Eliza D absolutely CRACKLES onscreen as Faith!!! It would be like passing on Chicklis in &#39;The Shield&#39; or Smits on NYPDBlue or D&#39;lenn on B5... If they can get her to give up the futile, hooker-girlfreind-cheerleader, future in film for an UNBELIEVABLE once in a lifetime unique starring role "FAITH THE VAMPIRE SLAYER" Then thats the bet for next year post Gellar./// scifidog

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:04 a.m. CST

    Final Morph

    by Razor42

    I think First Evil morphing into Buffy last just had more to do with the way her rejection tormented him and not that she&#39;s part of the parade of evil.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:27 a.m. CST

    recently, with the purchase of my Buffy season 2 DVD set, Buffy

    by a goonie

    second only to Seinfeld. and Buffy continues to bridge that gap. the level upon which i care for these individuals is just amazing. now, as for tonight&#39;s episode, great stuff. really enjoyed it. Gellar&#39;s performance is intelligent, ponderous, and delectably mature. then again, it always is. Dawn apparently grew even more beautiful over the summer (which i didn&#39;t think was possible). Xander is Xander, which means he kicks ass. Willow&#39;s response to Giles&#39;s question of "do you want to be punished?" was simply beautiful. Will is my favourite character in the show. she is quite possibly one of the most perfectly portrayed and ingeniously constructed characters in the history of television. seeing her again, albeit for a short time, was sweet and touching. and then you have Spike. this was for me (and i imagine many others) the most anticipated plotline of this new season. i love Spike. i love where Whedon and Noxon and co. have taken his character. and now, well, i was damn eager to see how this was going to play out. and it was brilliant. i loved Buffy&#39;s sweet reaction to seeing him again. i love Marster&#39;s performance. for some reason, i didn&#39;t expect him to be quite so tortured. but of course, it makes perfect sense. back in the first part of the season 2 ender, "Becoming, Part I," we see a series of flashbacks that illustrate specific, important moments in Angel&#39;s past. and we see that for a LOOOONNNNG time after he was "re-souled," he had troubles adjusting to his new life. obviously, that is what we are seeing here with Spike. i think Whedon and everyone involved is allowing this Spike plotline to unfold in extremely rewarding and ingenious ways. but then again, that&#39;s what the whole show is about.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:28 a.m. CST

    Spike&#39;s fluffy hair

    by Girl Friday

    C&#39;mon guys, it&#39;s not *that* hard--the hair Spike was sporting in this ep. is none other than his original "William-the-sensitive-but-not-very-talented-poet" style that he wore when Drucilla created him. It was longer, sandy blond and fluffy. He had the same style during the Boxer rebellion scene, but changed it for the 80&#39;s sequence (guess he really fell for the Billy Idol look). What with the gaining of one&#39;s soul and losing one&#39;s mind and all, he must not have had time for his nightly cut, wash and dyejob. Simple enough explaination, eh?

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:03 a.m. CST

    HOTPANTS in the new opening credits.

    by Gellar's Ass

    Thank you, Anya, for showing us the way. Line &#39;em up, ladies, HOTPANTS are going to be the next capri pants, low-rise jeans, etc. etc. fashion trend. Go! Go! Madison Avenue, for the good of the nation! **** Oh, and the episode was excellent. I don&#39;t know about Spike cutting himself -- seems like such an immature teenaged thing to do. **** Also hoping that we find out Dawn is good at something (anything) this season. Even if it only turns out she&#39;s a witch a parallel parking. WAR RED HERRINGS.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:09 a.m. CST


    by EricAlan69

    Excellent points, excellent overview of the episode and some glossed-over points lost on the Usual Gang Of (Moderately Self-Righteous) Idjits around here. Kudos! // e.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:10 a.m. CST

    Gellar&#39;s Ass, Where Have You Been?

    by EricAlan69

    It&#39;s been so very calm without you.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:13 a.m. CST

    Initial reactions....

    by Thalya

    Good lord everyone, I LOVE YOU!!!! Just reading all your spec as opposed to Jonothan and Dawn is like Willow would say, Rolling In Puppies. And Sleazy G, I hold by my HP predictions. I&#39;m extremely confident on my first 5, so at most all I would need to eat is three. And note people, I still have a bunch of names listed from people who placed HP bets at the end of last year, if anyone&#39;s interested. --- Now for my reactions. Ahhh..I feel better now... A girl can only take so much overanalysis. That and being rather depressed earlier today, getting back home around 10:30 after class to a freshly-taped Buffy was just wonderful. I think you guys are going to generate alot of the conclusions on your own and I&#39;m not sure what exactly to say. I can&#39;t wait to see more of Anya this season and Dawn was excellent in good material (they were just waiting all this time for the opportunity, knowing we&#39;d rejoice over anything after S6); one thing though: of all the naysayers I simply want ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE SHOWING DAWN WHINING, if not, I never want to hear her being called that again. The blueprints and the cellphones are going to come in extremely handy. And about that principal, Robin Wood. Yeah, I get the whole Puck reference, but look at the name, two nature words. This guy&#39;s on the side of Good and frankly I expect him to start acting oddly or perhaps become ill or possessed because of the Hellmouth, which is probably right where the First Evil (gee, can it really be anything else?) lurks, and if anyone remembers from Amends, Buffy found the underground lurking spot of the FE before when she found out that nothing would grow or live above or around it, namely the patch of Christmas Trees on that lot. Really doubt Mr. WOOD will survive (and that gets me thinking, perhaps that&#39;s why a stake to the heart can kill vamps, because of the living essence in the wood)(though...I don&#39;t want to sound offensive, but one could make some puns with regard to a black wood or forest at the school, though it really seems like he&#39;ll be the polar opposite of Mr. Trick). About the morphing BBs, what if it wasn&#39;t the most Evil but the BBs without souls? It would play up the contrast between them and the newly-souled Spike, yet they would be saying that in spite of now having a soul, you&#39;re still one of us. It would also bring up the still unexplored fact that BUFFY CAME BACK WRONG. I&#39;m dry for the moment, but my play-by-play will be up elsewhere after awhile (must balance my duties and all..). ***** But right now, I&#39;m extending a laurel and hardy handshake to anyone who doesn&#39;t like how these TBs peter out as the week goes on. For those who have been cooped up and are seriously jonsing for as much Buffy TB 24/7 as you can get, may I recommend the White Room for your discourse pleasures? This was an excellent premiere ep to get us started and frankly I&#39;ve never seen such potential for juicy spec as I&#39;m seeing right now. Either way, like I said before, I LOVE YOU GUYS!! Please never stop talking (and somehow I probably shouldn&#39;t have said that...;)

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:21 a.m. CST

    Now THERE&#39;S My Partner In Crime!!!!

    by EricAlan69

    Ah-ha! I&#39;ve missed ye, dear Thalya! Now, skipping into your last post, I thought while watching the show that the curious relationship of Willow with Gaia and the timely arrival of ROBIN WOOD were quite the coincidence, yes? And as I just posted on that other site, MT got to do some fun acting things in this eppie that she hasn&#39;t been given the chance to do before. Watch the scene where Carlos mistakes Buffy for Dawn&#39;s mother again, and watch MT&#39;s reactions- she&#39;s spot on hysterical. This is a good day, my friends. // e.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:27 a.m. CST


    by Thalya

    Yep, that old WR is a website. Due to a thing called a sense of ethics e and I aren&#39;t going to post that address directly to potentially take away ad viewers from AICN, so just give either of us an e-mail and we&#39;ll happily direct you pronto.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:29 a.m. CST

    The White Room....

    by EricAlan69 a smallish, demented Discussion Board, formed by myself and Thalya, wherein we discuss all things Buffy and Angel, and have a few other forums for everything else under the sun. The original membership (the Senior Partners) was selected by us from the ranks of completely insane, oddly articulate BtVS and AtS TalkBackers here on AICN, and we&#39;ve grown a bit over the summer. If you&#39;re interested in stopping in for the madness, email either myself (e.) at, or Thalya at // e.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:31 a.m. CST

    (Of Course....)

    by EricAlan69

    She gives the short answer, and I give the overlengthy, self-aggrandizing answer. This is a pattern, I think. // e.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:34 a.m. CST

    I live in Hawaii, so natch, I&#39;m fucked

    by Ellitterate

    Hey all. First post. Just thought I&#39;d spread my angst around. I&#39;ve been waiting all summer (as have we all) for the premiere of Season 7, anxiously, I might add, after what was arguably Buffy&#39;s best season finale since Buffy killed her boyfriend way back when. So what should happen here on Oahu, the week of the big premiere? Yes, KFVE, the local affiliate that usually carries UPN programming, has decided to drop UPN and pick up the WB instead. Don&#39;t get me wrong, Angel may be the best spin-off af all time, but really...Anyway. Poor me. I&#39;ll leave you with this completely unrelated, thoroughly out-dated question: Anyone else surprised last Friday when the John Doe premiere ended up being twice as good as Firefly? Kills me to admit it, but it was. Hopefully the real FF pilot will be the kick in the ass everyone expected. Ellitterate

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 3:01 a.m. CST

    Miss Kitty Fantastico

    by vt_slayer

    From "New Moon Rising" (quoted from memory, so be kind): Tara: So, how do you feel about cats? Willow: I&#39;m more of a dog person myself. I mean, I&#39;m not &#39;Death to all cats&#39; or anything. Why? T: I was thinking about getting one. W: Are you allowed to have cats in the dorm? T: Well, no...but this would be a sneaky cat. W: Oh, you mean, like a familiar? T: Actually, I was thinking more like...a pet. You know, we could call her Trixie or Miss Kitty Fantastico or something. W: Oh, and we could make kitty go crazy with string and things? [Tara nods] W: O.k., I&#39;m in. T: So, you&#39;re not allergic or anything? W: No. T: Good, because I want my room to be...Willow-friendly. W: Me, too. [She takes Tara&#39;s hand]

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 3:17 a.m. CST

    To vt_slayer:

    by KittyFantastico

    You have a perfect memory, as that is nearly verbatim! You would make a perfect minion in my war against the Powers The Be (Fleas) AND Santa The Bumpy God! Meeee-owww! MKF

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 3:26 a.m. CST


    by Smegohki

    So what&#39;s the deal? We have a principal who (in theory) is connected to Puck, as well as a teacher named Lohengrin. What&#39;s going on? Everyone&#39;s named after a literary/mythical figure?

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 3:33 a.m. CST


    by EricAlan69

    Thanks for reminding me- I, too, wondered about the Lohengrin reference earlier this evening, but got sidetracked. What with all of the speculation we&#39;ve been giving to Robin Wood over the past few months, I&#39;d missed out on hearing that a teacher was named after the so-called "Swan Knight" until I saw the episode. This bears more thought.... // e.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 3:46 a.m. CST

    nitpicky note

    by Thalya

    yet the teacher spelled it "Lonegrin"...hmm....

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 4:18 a.m. CST

    Lohengrin v. Lonegrin....

    by EricAlan69

    Well, intentional disinformation aside, "Lonegrin" for some reason, to me, brings to mind the Cheshire Cat. Why, I don&#39;t know. Maybe it&#39;s the whole "Curioser & curiouser" reference, coupled with first Kit and Dawn, then Buffy, going Down The Hole. Who, preytell, made the talisman, if not wood? Lonegrin? // e.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 6 a.m. CST



    I love the TB, but those who write novel-long post make me mad. May I make a suggestion, if you have multiple points to make use multiple posts. Don

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 6:24 a.m. CST



    This may have been posted already but the posts are so long I didn

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 6:28 a.m. CST



    It doesn&#39;t have to be bullet points just something to indcate a new idea try a dash(-) or the little stars (*) anything to clearly point to a new thought

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 8:27 a.m. CST

    Dawn - Supernatural Powers

    by goldkngt55

    Actually that&#39;s not ENTIRELY true. They&#39;ve never blatantly come out and shown her doing anything with sparkly lights or the like... But to those who have every episode on tape (I don&#39;t but it stood out to me at the time) go back and look at what Dawn was painting when Buffy goes in to tell her what happened to their mother in "The Body"

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 9:40 a.m. CST

    Passing the Torch

    by Canis

    I&#39;m sure Eliza Dushku realises she would recieve better film offers if she took he lead role in Buffy (if Joss offered it). I think it would take the show in a new direction, mistrusted by the Scoobies, trying to repent for former sins (she doesn&#39;t have the "I had no soul" excuse to rely on), constantly being aware that she is following in buffy&#39;s not inconsiderable small footsteps.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 9:47 a.m. CST

    Yay! Dawn IS Taller. Finally!

    by Mr. Smegma

    Joss gave up trying to keep MT shorter than SMG. Pretty soon he was going to have to call in Peter Jackson for forced perspective lessons. Let the gradual hotting up of little sis begin. The "mom hair" jokes were a nice start and a minimum of Dawn whining always good. All in all, a fine kick off, although Willow is looking OLD.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 10:04 a.m. CST

    Way to go Joss

    by GypsyTRobot

    Hard to believe he actually got all these folks back to reprise their Buffy villain roles. This could either mean that Joss is a wonderful human being that people love to work with, or all these actors have such open schedules they&#39;re pretty much available for Buffy appearances, bar mitzvahs, etc.? I hope the former is the case. Fortunately none of them are old enough to drop dead at any second, spoiling the whole thing. (Me, I was disappointed that Valentine Dyall, the Black Guardian in Dr. Who, died before he could make a third appearance which the White Guardian had predicted). Final thoughts: the First Evil should be played by David Warner, reprising his role from Time Bandits. "43 species of parrots. Nipples, for men!!" Peace out from a very royal geek.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 10:22 a.m. CST

    The Talisman...

    by delwin

    Did I miss something, or is the creator of the talisman still a mystery??? It was done to keep the slayer away. The teacher comes to mind. But I just don&#39;t think that the principal is bad. I think its more like Robin Hood and his Merrymen (students). What was the first scene about???? hmmmm.. All in all, a very good season opener. It has opened the bag for many paths. JW&#39;s ideas for this show have not dried up.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 10:29 a.m. CST


    by Darth Lechon

    Ah, to be back on the TB for a new season of Buffy. I love it. Thalya, the only examples I can think of that come close to Dawn whining are in the two S6 eps, "Dead Things" and "Older and Far Away." In the former, she whines about how Buffy doesn&#39;t want to be there, and in the latter, she whines about how no one will spend any time with her. Actually, in retrospect, Dawn&#39;s been pretty restrained as far as the AMOUNT of whining. She didn&#39;t whine through the whole season, as some people have postulated. If you look, quite a few of the times that she seemed to have a problem with her situation, there was no one in earshot. She was just lamenting her position. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love the character of Dawn and I love MT. As the youngest of my family, I too know what its like to get lost in the shuffle **sniff** <noble pose> Incidentally, I&#39;ve noticed how uncomfortably hot MT has been getting for a while now. I&#39;ve got a theory (it could be bunnies, heh, in-joke, from-th-musical-ep-okayi&#39;llshutupnow) that in a few years, MT will be making people&#39;s tongues wag in the pages of Maxim or Stuff or FHM. All those naysayers who complain about how long her neck is will be worshipping the soil she trods upon. Just a theory, mind you. All in all, a good season opener. Really enjoyed Willow&#39;s Dumbledore reference. Makes me anxious for "Chamber" to come out. Oh well, can&#39;t wait for next week!

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 10:34 a.m. CST


    by The Gunslinger

    Was anyone else disappointed that after Adam called Spike "Number 17", Spike didn&#39;t shout: "I am not a number, I am a free man!"

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 11:18 a.m. CST

    Oh, what a relief it is

    by Cajun Lightning

    Man, things are just better when Whedon writes &#39;em. Not that this episode was stellar but it had the tone right. Right amount of self-mocking, emotion, scariness, sarcasem etc. Last season just reminded me what a gay idea for a show this is and how talented Whedon is for making it work as well as he has. Please, baby, stick around this year. Overall episode thoughts: Dang, Principle Wood has the whitest teeth I have ever seen. Dawn finally got herself some decent lines, I just hope they lay off the Scrappy idea. I&#39;m worried about ol&#39; Spike and I haven&#39;t seen enough to make a fair call yet. I just don&#39;t want to see him wallowing in character development Hell like he did last year. And the final morph-a-thon rocked. Intense forboding there. Good sign. All in all, a decent start. Keep your fingers crossed and welcome back everyone!

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 11:22 a.m. CST

    chastain86 - Dawn is 15-16, and concerning Xander

    by Entilzha Proph

    Want proof? 1. She was 14 in S5 (In Blood ties, Joyce says "Your 14 sweetie, you know that"), and 2. In S6 she tells the one guy she makes out with in All the Way that she is a lowly Freshman. Ok, I can&#39;t rule out that she might still be a frosh due to flunkage, but I have no reason to suspect it either. Concerning Xander, he said he was meeting with a clinent (or something to that effect) and it was given that he was the foreman (or in charge dude, whatever) in the Musical episode "I gave the crew the day off", and if you go all the way back, in S5 he got something of a jump in the ep where there are 2 Xanders

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Mighty Morphing theory

    by Juggernaut125

    Here&#39;s a thought. The Morpher at the end. Changing into the BBs. Thought #1. It&#39;s around the Hellmouth so he/she&#39;s gotta be evil. #2. Every figure the monster morphed into "Has no soul". Because they were evil and killed, hence their soul would be taken into hell. Or because (in Dru&#39;s case) she is a vampire. So the Mighty Morpher wasn&#39;t just looking like the others, he WAS the others at the core. Y&#39;know. A la Shang Tsung from Mortal Kombat. He&#39;s the #1 evil guy so he has access to all of the souls in Hell. But wait! Didn&#39;t he morph into Buffy at the end? Well Buffy didn&#39;t come back right though. Her soul was the product of the other four scoobs that resurrected her. If any one here has read the Titans comic or Wonder Woman, the character of Troi/Wonder Girl was resurrected very much the same way. From the memories of friens. Only their memories made her out to be a Miss Perfect. But as a slayer, Buffy&#39;s soul had that touch of evil to it from The First Slayer. Well, where did that soul go to? Whadda ya think? Makes sense?

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 11:45 a.m. CST

    hey all you comics geeks-

    by RenoNevada2000

    Am I the only one who caughts Willow&#39;s "Miss Harkness" reference? Wasn&#39;t that Franklin Richards&#39; guardian who was a super strong witch in the Fantastic Four?

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 11:50 a.m. CST

    VERY fine beginning, IMO.

    by Smugbug

    There was ALOT more energy in this ep than ALL of last season&#39;s eps combined. James Marsters again just acts his pants (or shirt) off - wonderfully. Yes, she&#39;s awfully skinny, but SMG was back in fine form. Loved the "I&#39;m taller than you" line from Dawn. Also, did anyone catch the "just the three of us" line from Spike after Buffy first entered his "lair"? Overall, a definite 4-star on a 5-star meter.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:07 p.m. CST

    My six cents

    by Ravenwing263

    First of all, statuatory rape is different in every state. Also different is the difference between statuartory rape and child molestation. Second, despite the fact that books and comics are suposed to be in canon, Whedon often contradicts them in the show. Now, I doubt he would contradict his own comic, but Fray #1 never stated that Buffy was the Last Slayer . . . we were supposed to assume that it was, but it wasn&#39;t stated as fact, meaning it could happen any time in the next hundred years or so. Personally, I doubt they will end Buffy that way because I don&#39;t think they won&#39;t want to kill the whole francize, what with Angel, Ripper, and the posibility of other spin-offs/sequel series. And, actually . . . I think Whedon could make the show work without Gellar . . . he said after season four that he couldn&#39;t imagine the show without Gellar&#39;s Buffy, Brandon&#39;s (sp?)&#39;s Xander, Hanigan&#39;s Willow, AND HEAD&#39;S GILES. He made it work without Head (I don&#39;t think his absence was what made the sixth season so weak.) And while we&#39;re on the subject of the sixth season, I didn&#39;t think it was bad televison, in fact I think it was better than most of the shit out there, but I agree that it wasn&#39;t up to par for Buffy. That&#39;s by rant. Goodbye.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:15 p.m. CST

    and another thing

    by Ravenwing263

    I actually thing Dawn is a sophmore. I read somewhere that she&#39;s a sophmore, but she had her freshmen year at the middle school because the high school wasn&#39;t back to normal. (They did this because this season is supposed to draw a lot of parralells between S7 Dawn and S1 Buffy, so they put her in the same grade the Scoobies started out in.) And television is very fond of 16-year-old freshmen, anyway. They pop up in quite a few shows.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 12:48 p.m. CST

    yin and yang

    by TV4U2

    In eastern philosophy good and evil are too sides of the same coin. Two opposite forces creating a balance of power. The principles office over the hell mouth is order over chaos. If principle wood is not evil you might even suggest a stake over a whole. Yin and yang being male and female energy. Evil is aggressive male energy. vice versa. I can&#39;t get into Josses head but he is probably working off many old mythological metaphors as most writer do. The whole wicca thing seems tied to mother earth the nuturing good force of energy. Gia is mother earth. I liked the season opener but was puzzled that Buffy was not more shocked at seeing Spike or that she didn&#39;t have more too say to him after their last encounter. Dawns character was introduced as powerless and needing protection from glory. That coupled with her whining leaves a lasting first impression that people may find hard to forget. I think that&#39;s why people have a hard time seeing her being slayer. Synder was a prick and I think there trying this season to be more sensitive to the minority community by adding more ethnic diversity. Making wood evil would be like saying all lesbians are evil which cleary pissed off the gay community. Guess will have to wait and see. As for the show going on its a stretch. REcreating cast chemistry is not a science. If it were every show on tv would be great. Maybe the show should just go out with a great bang with the hell mouth being sealed up for good.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:06 p.m. CST

    I think you Dawn naysayers are forgetting a critical truth...

    by Roguewriter

    Dawn IS Buffy -- she was once the Key, yes, but when she was made human, it was via the genetic makeup of the Slayer. They&#39;re not just sisters; they&#39;re THE SAME. Here&#39;s Rogue&#39;s prediction for the season -- the Big Bad (the First Evil, whose pawn, Robin Goodfellow, now runs Sunnydale High) will successfully wipe out the entire Slayer-in-waiting line and then turn its attention to Faith, who will stage a jailbreak and hightail it to Sunnydale to escape a similar fate. There, she and the Scoobs will go to war with the First Evil. In the end, Faith will fall, meaning the end of the line of Slayers. EXCEPT... Buffy still exists, and remains a Slayer at heart. But everyone -- including the Watchers Council, whom I predict will also suffer huge casualties in the war w/ the First Evil (including, I hope, Quentin Travers) -- has forgotten or never knew about Dawn&#39;s origin. So there DOES remain one Slayer-in-training: Dawn Summers. Of course, for her to become the Slayer, Buffy must die. Which, I believe, will happen in the last hour of this season (unless SMG renews her contract). Buffy at last shuffles loose the mortal coil and embraces the heaven she was torn from last season, and her grieving sister takes up the mantle of Slayer, determined to honor Buffy&#39;s memory and carry on... though hopefully not into her own series. Just end it, Joss. Just take it out on a HUGE emotional high note. Kill Giles. Kill Willow. Kill Spike. Every one of them deserves a warrior&#39;s death, a grand finale. Bring it on. I&#39;ll get the hankies ready. =)

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:20 p.m. CST

    Who Principal Wood *REALLY* is ... maybe

    by gjbarrus

    Did anyone else get it when Xander showed Buffy that the Principal&#39;s Office is located smack dab where the original library was located? Principal Wood isn&#39;t the big bad, he&#39;s a new WATCHER. Why else would he try to hire Buffy to work at the school? Because the school is located over the Hellmouth and the Watcher knows that the Slayer needs to be there to protect the students (and the world). He did tell Buffy that he knew a bit about her past -- he probably knows everything. Regarding the Talisman: it&#39;s my feeling that Kit (of the Scrappy Gang) placed it there.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:25 p.m. CST

    Principal Wood

    by Juggernaut125

    I think I&#39;m gonna have to agree with GJBarrus on that call. Wood&#39;s a watcher.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:27 p.m. CST


    by Lt. Torello

    Good Stuff: Michelle Trachtenburg finally allowed to look and act her age ("I&#39;m taller than you!") -- really the best Dawn performance yet and hopefully it&#39;ll set the tone for the rest of the series; the morphing parade of Big Bads; the new vampire getting stuck in his grave Not So Good: Illogic aplenty! Sure, it&#39;s fun to see Buffy and Dawn in the graveyard together, but does the Slayer really expect her "normal" sister to hold her own against a vampire?; Xander better than anyone knows they shouldn&#39;t rebuild the new school over the Hellmouth, but he doesn&#39;t seem too concerned; Why does Xander wear a happening suit if he&#39;s just gonna change into workshirt and hardhat?; How has Xander become a foreman so quickly?; How do Kit and Carlos have "records as thick as (Buffy&#39;s)" on just the first day of class?; Kit and Carlos seem to have accepted the whole supernatural undead thing pretty readily; It&#39;s implied that Dawn has no friends before Kit and Carlos, but wouldn&#39;t Janice and the rest of her little pals also be starting Sunnydale High?; What the hell&#39;s going on with Spike?! How and when did he come back? Buffy doesn&#39;t seem too surprised or troubled to see him and is not at all intrigued by his apparently loony state; How does Anya support herself since the demolition of the Magic Shop and breaking up with Xander?

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:37 p.m. CST

    Lt. Torello...

    by rev_skarekroe

    I think I can answer a couple of your questions: "does the Slayer really expect her &#39;normal&#39; sister to hold her own against a vampire?" No, but that&#39;s why she&#39;s training her. Xander, Giles, and Willow all had to be able to hold up while Buffy&#39;s not around, too. "Why does Xander wear a happening suit if he&#39;s just gonna change into workshirt and hardhat?" Maybe he wore it for the ribbon cutting? "wouldn&#39;t Janice and the rest of her little pals also be starting Sunnydale High?" When I was in Middle School, there were two different High Schools you could wind up at. Maybe it&#39;s one of those things. "What the hell&#39;s going on with Spike?! How and when did he come back?" Perhaps we&#39;ll find out. He&#39;s still a bit mental from the whole soul restoration thing. "Buffy doesn&#39;t seem too surprised or troubled to see him and is not at all intrigued by his apparently loony state" I think Buffy WAS concerned, but she had more important things to deal with - namely her missing sister and the zombie/ghost/whatever things. "How does Anya support herself since the demolition of the Magic Shop and breaking up with Xander?" She doesn&#39;t need to support herself anymore - she&#39;s a demon again. sk

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:40 p.m. CST

    Episode or morph scene online?

    by Doc Brown

    First off thanks to anyone who answered my question about MK Fantastico. Now, does anyone have or know where I can find last nights episode online? More specifically, just the last scene with Spike and the morphing thing, that&#39;s all I really want to have. If anyone knows where i can find it please post!

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:44 p.m. CST

    spike trying to cut out his heart

    by so snarky

    what was spike trying to cut out? his soul? no, i think he was trying to cut out his heart, because it is beating!!! what if spike is human. he did say, "make me what I was" or something like that.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:49 p.m. CST

    Great Start

    by Rude+Kaiser

    Herc, normally you kiss major Joss booty but your on the mark here. This was a good set-up episode and made me want more. We got just enough of Willow, Spike, Anya, and Xander to wet our appetites for more. We did get Dawn and the scarpies but it was bearable. Buffy was on point. "It&#39;s about the power." I was surprised to see how caring Buffy was to Spike (see AR scene in Seeing Red). I don&#39;t know about her and Principle Wood but there was definite sparkage between her and Spike "Buffy duck." Buffy is back with vengence. Silveragent, go bake a cake.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:51 p.m. CST

    it&#39;s about power?

    by boomzilla8

    anybody heard that it&#39;s about power line before? getting sadly predictable.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:53 p.m. CST

    wood as watcher problem

    by sjanich

    The problem with Wood being a Watcher, is, why wouldn&#39;t he tell Buffy? Buffy is back in with the Watcher&#39;s as of mid S5. Of course, there could be more then one supernatural observation group. Perhaps a competing group. Or Rogue group.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:54 p.m. CST

    my theories

    by ninthour

    ok, so if you&#39;ve seen season 3 of Buffy then you should know what the thing that was shape-shifting at the end was. The First. the first evil. it was tormenting Angel on the christmas episode. for some reason it needs a vampire with a soul. it planted the talisman to try to keep Buffy away from Spike. just like it was trying to keep Buffy away from Angel. but it lost in the end of the xmas ep. Angel didnt kill himself. but now it&#39;s back. Spike getting his soul back inadvertently brought the First back to sunnydale. just like joss to reward good intentions with a bad outcome. we know that the slayer&#39;s power is rooted in darkness. there are rumors that maybe that power came from the First evil. also, the girl at the beginning was next in line to be slayer. now it moves to dawn. think about it: Dawn wasn&#39;t around when Faith was called, so the next batter on deck would be someone else. now that this girl is dead it makes sense that it would go back to someone that has the same genetic make-up. the exact genetic make-up. when the monks created Dawn they made her from Buffy&#39;s blood. as Spike says, "Blood is power. It&#39;s life." "Who has the power, Dawn?", Buffy asks her sis at the beginning of season 7. the principal is Dawn&#39;s watcher. the watchers have always trained the slayers-to-be. remember Kenya. her training began when she was a little kid. somehow the watchers know who will be called next. plus, it makes sense that his office would be set above the Hellmouth. now, i&#39;m sure joss will make the principal look bad in the next few episodes, but that&#39;s joss for you. it&#39;s called, "misdirection." magicians use it all the time, and i think we can safely say that joss is a master magician. how am i doin?

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:54 p.m. CST

    I agree with Woods...

    by Smugbug

    ...on being a Watcher. Makes sense. He did not seem sinister - AT ALL. Also, I&#39;m highly anticipating this season. With the possibility of it being the last.season - I think it&#39;s gonna be a good one.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 1:57 p.m. CST

    "...I killed people..."

    by SallyHousecoat

    I&#39;m racking my brain trying to think of who Willow killed besides Warren? Did she kill a cop at the police station? Someone please enlighten me. Lastly another nitpick, Oz wasn&#39;t in Where the Wild Things Are. You might be thinking of New Moon Rising.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:03 p.m. CST


    by SallyHousecoat

    I give a clue in my own post...ROTFL.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Dawn&#39;s Age

    by pkbabylon5

    We know she&#39;s *at least* 15. Remember in OMWF, when she meets Sweet and he does his thing and then she finally starts singing again... "No you see, you and me, wouldn&#39;t be very regal. What I mean, I&#39;m FIFTEEN so this "queen" thing&#39;s illegal." For those of you who picked up the soundtrack, you can check the lyrics in the liner (The song is "What You Feel"). I don&#39;t think she&#39;s turned 16 yet, because I would imagine that Joss would at least note her birthday by having her talk about getting a license or something, like he did with Buffy.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:11 p.m. CST

    Principal with an Earring


    I don&#39;t know about California but here in Texas there is no way a Principal of a high school would be allowed to wear an earring Hell the Damn male students can&#39;t.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Willow Killed...

    by superzario


  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:37 p.m. CST

    you want the impossible

    by MormomNailer

    First, I was mildly disappointed by the episode. An entire season of Buffy has never "sucked", and no one event (Dawn, the musical ep) has hurt it. It&#39;s just a general diminishment of energy, magic... last night seemed to be going through the motions, you could "see through" the episode in a way. But I&#39;m still happy to watch! I also realized how much we expect of this show: we want each ep to have an arc. We want each season to have several arcs, and one overarching arc. And we want the entire series to have an ultimate arc. Jeez! Who could possible deliver on this!! What series ever has been that densely plotted, interwoven, etc?

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:47 p.m. CST


    by superzario

    The last few seasons of DS9 had some really good story arcs within the one big Dominion arc. Too bad the first few seasons sucked really bad. Buffy is a much better show Then any Star Trek series and I love Star Trek. DS9 started my love for the hour long episodic and Buffy Became my true love of the genre.... I can only think of two bad things about Buffy 1. Riley. I hate that bastard he was just horrible. 2. Dracula. He should have been the BB to end all BB&#39;s, but instaed he was a one episode joke bad guy played by some girly actor that had no business being on the show. He should have been the one that all Vamps feared instead of some goofball. Anyway I liked last nights episode.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:54 p.m. CST

    Willow killed...

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    Rack and Warren. She attempted to kill just about everybody else.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Xander&#39;s job


    He must have had one hell of a busy summer to go from foreman to co-owner, or maybe he was hired by a new construction company that gave him a major promotion.Maybe every body who was over him was killed during the summer.. happens alot in Sunnydale.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 3:28 p.m. CST


    by Lt. Torello

    I&#39;ll sigh and go along with most of your explanations for now -- it&#39;s a fantasy show so I&#39;m not really losing sleep over any of this -- but the ribbon cutting was in the teaser before Xander picked up Buffy and Dawn.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 3:42 p.m. CST

    Dawn the Slayer

    by A-Train2000

    There is one big problem with "Dawn the Slayer". It&#39;s called child labor laws. Kids are only allowed to work so long durring a day and only so many days a week. Plus they have to work around schooling. The actress who plays Dawn wouldn&#39;t be available enough in order to carry an entire show as the starring character. At least not for another year or two. Sorry Fan Boys, start speculating on someone else.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 4 p.m. CST

    Dawn&#39;s as dull as Buffy

    by FromHell

    you know Buff&#39;s always been kinda seondary to the Buffy universe, she&#39;s so normal were shes surrounded by original and interesting characters that she gets lost, same with Dawn, they&#39;re too normal to hold my interest. Faith would be a much better replacement, much much better, long live Faith, we have to start shouting now peeps cos if we dont we could be forced to swallow a Dawn the Vampire Slayer show, uuurgh!

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 4:01 p.m. CST


    by FromHell

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 4:48 p.m. CST

    Dawn the Slayer

    by ThingsThatTimDog

    MT turns 17 in October. Which means she would be 18 next year around the time they would be filming episode 6 or 7. Full time work wouldnt really be a problem. Also, she could file for independence from her parents to be able to legally work now or last year in fact. Not really a big factor. School isnt much of a factor either because the &#39;classes&#39; most child stars take are a joke. She can take all the time off, make it up later, or just test out of them.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    Hell! I&#39;m just happy they are finally using cell phones!

    by ArchDiver

    Great ep! Set a lot up and set a good tone for the season. Points you folks need to watch. Morph-thing is not the First Evil. First Evil doesn&#39;t physically manifest, which you need to do to make and place a talisman. **** Buffy and Wood will have a moment or two, but will probably not be s/o. **** Dawn is the Buffy of the Scrappies, no ifs ands or buts about it. **** They are handling Willow extrememly well, better than I expected. **** JW is incorporating our ramblings into the show. There were too many lines and whatnot that have been beaten to death in TB and WR and other forums for him not to be responding to us. Lets keep him on his toes! AD out

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Dawn the next slayer?

    by Bectile

    I keep reading people who write that "in order for Dawn to be the next slayer, Buffy must die". That simply is NOT true!!! Faith was called because KENDRA died. So for the next slayer to be called, FAITH must die. The line no longer rests with Buffy. My prediction: Faith will be brought back at the end of the season... to die. Since the other slayers-in-training have been killed, Dawn will be called. It really doesn&#39;t matter if Buffy sticks around or not, maybe when Dawn assumes the mantle of slayer she will feel free to actually have a life somewhere else, or fight evil on the east coast! We&#39;ll see...

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 5:54 p.m. CST

    how far down do you go....

    by JohnSaxonGoHome

    I always wondered how far down people actually read. Talkbacks are like a tootsie-pop....

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 6:03 p.m. CST

    Methinks Hercules means

    by Ardee-El

    James Karen (who played Mr. Teague in "Poltergeist), not Murray Hamilton. (Confusing him with Hamilton&#39;s Mayor Larry Vaughn in "Jaws", maybe?)

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 6:31 p.m. CST

    Hey check out the upper-corner gif!

    by Voice O. Reason

    Harry&#39;s been watching THIS ISLAND EARTH again! Or the MST3K version..."Are you cooking again?" "No!" "Are you building an interocetor?" "NO!!!"

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 6:34 p.m. CST

    Poor poor spike

    by Scud

    He needs to get his shit together quick if he&#39;s gonna be of any use to the remaining scoobies against this new shapeshifter. I think Glory was the toughest villian (Aside from Dark Willow) and a monster that can become all of them is gonna be wicked. Spike is gonna be pivotal I think, and did any of you notice the line that even buffy missed? When buffy locked herself in that room with spike, she said, "I expect them to get in any minute now." Spike said,"No one comes down here. Just the THREE of us." I wonder how many caught that. And the fact that he tried to take out his heart shows how tortured he really is. By the way, Buffy kicks ass again. You nickpickers and naysayers will just have to deal.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 7:02 p.m. CST

    the worst? - THE LOW RISE JEANS

    by BlackWing

    i liked the review in general, it sort of jibes with my own observations with the exception of leaving out a "Worst". those low rise jeans - those just look so bad, and if something looks bad on Sarah Michelle Geller... Buffy used to *set* little fashion mini-trends in accessories and quirky combination. PLEASE let the show get back into a leading role, and PLEASE let them stop following this *really* ugly trendoid! Low Rise Jeans - PEH! ~B~

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 7:59 p.m. CST

    Go go slayer boots!

    by FromHell

    Buffys has lacked some of her funky cool in favour of a more grown up look, but it doesnt fit too good, she looks best in black boots and a mini skirt, oh those hazy days of season 1 when Sarah was such a hotty

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 8:03 p.m. CST

    Mad Spike rulez! Oh and Herc...

    by FromHell

    Xander looked spiff, and Dawn was actualy a little less anoying, Giles was very cool, and Willow hit just the right note, BUT WHY THE FUCK WAS FEZ FROM THAT 70&#39;S SHOW HANGING AT SUNNYDALE HIGH??? Oh and Herc... your reviews have ruled recently, dont give the details, keep us guessing, cos i dont have the stength to resist every time!

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 8:08 p.m. CST

    Status of Xander and Dawn and stuff

    by GPL Racer

    Dawn is obviously a sophomore, just like Buffy in Season One. Buffy to Wood: "Can&#39;t you suspend her for three years?" Xander is clearly a contractor, we don&#39;t know yet whether he is on his own or still working for a larger company. Xander (to himself when he sees the hole in the bathroom floor: "Contracty goodness." That is very rapid advancement, but it does happen. Foremen don&#39;t have clients but contractors do, client meeting being the explanation given for the suit. Whoever said he was incompetent at his job was not paying attention to the woodworking skills involved in building the weapons box that Xander gave Buffy for her birthday last year, among other things. There is no evidence whatsoever that the morpher made or placed the talisman and is therefore a physical manifestation. This show was really short!! It lasted just 41 minutes including opening and closing credits, excluding commercials. The usual show is 44 or 45 minutes. The reruns on FX are 43, but they have been cut to fit in another commercial or two.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 10:18 p.m. CST


    by casmcthorn

    First off we all know faith has to die to call the next slayer right?So no superpowered danw and faith show will exist unless dawn starts playing with the magix.Highly doubtfull thanks to "wrecked".The morphy thing isnt the principal,thats sad...So freddy ask velma to do some digging before we start pointing fingers.Everything is connected,the earth the roots,The slayer the evil,season one season 7...It shifted into buffy because thats where it began for us,with buffy a cheerleader fighting back and thats where it will end.Peace love and harmony (i miss that girl)!Oh and p.s. faith is sooo bi when she is rubbing herself and asking buffy if she doesnt get the post fight tingles.

  • Sept. 25, 2002, 10:24 p.m. CST

    sorry forgot to say...

    by casmcthorn

    If spike wasnt involed with the talisman debaco how did he know so quickly that the talisman was the cause and why were the ghost blocking the room spike was in(with the morpher)Because thaey were gaurding daddy and daddy&#39;s roomate(no slash intended ok maybe a little intended)Big bad is assistant principal martinez or whatever scott baios character is.Well he is the morpher he works for original baddie. Thanks and goodnight!

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 12:18 a.m. CST

    Buffy Musical CD

    by Frank Einstein

    Does anyone know where in LA I can find the Buffy Musical CD? I couldn&#39;t find it at Amoeba or Best Buy. Has anyone seen it around town? Thanks!

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 12:27 a.m. CST

    willow also killed......and MY THEORY

    by Devious666

    ok willow also killed rack so not just warren ...she only told the cop to "take a nap" I have a theory regarding how Joss said this season being just like season 1...everyone in season 7 has a counterpart from season 1: GILES/GILES,WILLOW/WILLOW,XANDER/XANDER,ANYA/CORDELIA(they both are/were demons,both dated Xander),DAWN/BUFFY(slayer thing), BUFFY/JOYCE(&#39;mom-hair&#39;), SPIKE/ ANGEL (vamp with soul) ...i dunno if anyone has mentioned this but its something to think about Later

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 12:28 a.m. CST

    willow also killed......and MY THEORY

    by Devious666

    ok willow also killed rack so not just warren ...she only told the cop to "take a nap" I have a theory regarding how Joss said this season being just like season 1...everyone in season 7 has a counterpart from season 1: GILES/GILES,WILLOW/WILLOW,XANDER/XANDER,ANYA/CORDELIA(they both are/were demons,both dated Xander),DAWN/BUFFY(slayer thing), BUFFY/JOYCE(&#39;mom-hair&#39;), SPIKE/ ANGEL (vamp with soul) ...i dunno if anyone has mentioned this but its something to think about Later

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 12:34 a.m. CST

    Woods a Watcher?

    by vt_slayer

    I find the speculation that principal woods is a watcher intriguing, but can anyone remember a watcher on the TV show who did not speak with an English accent? I can&#39;t...unless maybe in the flashback in &#39;Becoming&#39;?

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 1:12 a.m. CST


    by EricAlan69

    Merrick didn&#39;t have an English accent (in &#39;Becoming, Part 1), and that&#39;s not necessarily a trademark of all watchers, if you recognize some of Joss&#39; other writings as canon, FWIW. // e.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Dawn&#39;s friends from "The Body"

    by Drath

    Someone wondered where those people were this episode. I&#39;d rather have seen them return instead of these new kids, but it&#39;s reasonable to guess that between the trauma of Joyce&#39;s death and Buffy&#39;s as well, that Dawn fell out of touch with her old friends. The isolation her character was feeling all last year supports the idea that other kids kind of gravitated away from her. It&#39;s also VERY reasonable that her old friends&#39; parents moved to keep them from going to the new Sunnydale High, with it&#39;s humungo mortality rate. Still, I would like to see those kids from the Body again. It might just have been the magnitude of the episode, but they left more of an impression on me than the canned Carlos and goth girl this episode. There&#39;s room for the new kids to grow, but if they don&#39;t work out I hope we see the old friends again(I can&#39;t remember their names, but I can only remember Carlos because of those spoilers a while back).

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 2:03 p.m. CST


    by casmcthorn

    buffy didn&#39;t pursue a new career when Faith came to take the helm.There is no way she is gonna take of just because(and i personally doubt it)dawn became the new slayer.The buffster would still stick around to fight and to be the superpowred watcher.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 2:20 p.m. CST

    Buffy Big Bad Season 6

    by Braider

    I&#39;m breaking my "thou shall not post before reading all talk backs" rule. Deal. ****************** I LOVE the fact that they point out in the last scene that Buffy was the Big Bad of season 6. She and she alone was the cause of her suffering and strife. *************** My friends and I are speculating whether the principle is the shape shifter ("I&#39;ve got her where I want her") or if Team Whedon is simply throwing in a lot of red herrings. I think the principle may end up being just an ordinary, good guy whose office just happens to end up on the hellmouth. It would be hillarious if he survived in spite of this. ************** To any of TW reading this - EXCELLENT episode! It reminded all of us (at my birthday party) why we watch Buffy, and may have convinced one of my friends to start watching again.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 2:56 p.m. CST

    Three of us in here

    by Braider

    Spike knew that the shapeshifter was in the room with him and Buffy. It may have been inside him.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Buffy leaves without dying

    by superzario

    Ala Cordilia the PTB decide Buffy&#39;s time has come, because no other slayer has ever lasted as long as her, so she must ascend to a new level of being and fight evil on a larger scale. It works and everyone is happy.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 3:25 p.m. CST

    Yes, Way!!

    by GPL Racer

    Lighten up Mojo_Jojo. We&#39;re not trying to determine the speed of light here. This is a review of a tv show, which means it is the personal opinion of the reviewer and subject to his known biases. Besides, read Herc&#39;s rating system definitions again. He&#39;s not saying it&#39;s a religious experience or something, just better than we deserve, which it was. I just wish it had been longer. Does anyone know if they will steal some of that lost time back from Haunted later this year? Besides, even the worst Buffy is, in my opinion, better than most movies and so deserves a four star rating. In particular, last season was difficult and there were some things that might have been handled better, but it was still better than most movies, in my opinion. I can&#39;t imagine being a movie reviewer and having to sit through all the schlock they have to endure.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 3:26 p.m. CST


    by GPL Racer

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 3:30 p.m. CST

    Oops again!

    by GPL Racer

    Typing with one arm in a sling is a pain in the ass. Anyway, here I am breaking my own rule by feeding a troll.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 3:33 p.m. CST


    by Braider

    Ooh, forgot the frog/Frenchman comment. One of the guys at my party is French. From Paris, no less. It was his first time watching Buffy. We turned to look at him, and watched his jaw slowly drop open. He later asked, "Is it always like this?" *********** Beautiful, just beautiful. *********Incidentally, I love the idea of Robin Good as Robin Goodfellow. Myself, I thought of Robin Hood and Robin Wood (fantasy artist, female).

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 5:55 p.m. CST

    3 in the room

    by Uncle Istvan

    I believe that the shapeshifter was the First Evil originally seen in Season 2. When Spike refers to the 3 ppl in the room he means Buffy, the First Evil, and himself. Since that scene was from Buffy&#39;s POV, it only makes sense that she (and therefore we) could not see it. Remember when the First Evil was taunting Angel during Angel&#39;s talk to Giles. It was only visible when it was from Angel&#39;s POV. So Saith The Uncle.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 6:09 p.m. CST

    Minor, nitpicking points in keeping with the talkback

    by kodachikuno

    I thought I&#39;d throw my two cents in on all the small, unimportant subjects that people feel compelled to pick over on this talk back. Dawn is a sophomore in high school, not a freshman. Xander was promoted way back at the beginning of Season 5. He was acting more like a contractor than a foreman with the suit, client meeting etc. However, to be a contractor, you have to be licensed. He couldn&#39;t have just been promoted to the job. It&#39;s possible he got that license over the summer, though. And as far as the principal and his earrings. When I was in high school (I also live in Northern CA) my principal/vice-principal were crusty old men. But I think the character of the hip young principal (in addition to any plot points Joss Whedon has hammered out for him) is a commentary on the Southern California world/mentality that he wanted to convey in the first season. Personally, I always thought the high school students (particularly Cordy) dressed really conservatively. Not So Cal, at all.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 6:19 p.m. CST

    Just the three of us

    by Bectile

    I think Spike was referring to himself, his SOUL and Buffy when he said "Just the three of us in here". He&#39;s still struggling to integrate it into his being, and considers it an entity separate from himself, which is why he "tried to cut it out".

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 6:24 p.m. CST


    by SallyHousecoat

    I don&#39;t think Buffy was supposed to represent the season six big bad. If you noticed the big bads appeared in order from season six to season one. It would appear that Warren is considered the season six big bad. I think of him more as a catalyst to the real big bad, Willow. Anyone, even Xander, could use a gun to kill people. That&#39;s not big bad. Dark Willow, that&#39;s Big Bad but, you know that&#39;s just my opinion.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 6:41 p.m. CST

    1st evil-- Season 3

    by kodachikuno

    The 1st evil was in Season 3. In the Christmas episode (the only Buffy Christmas episode, I believe). It&#39;s right smack in the middle of the season in which Buffy and Angel knew they couldn&#39;t be together. Otherwise it wouldn&#39;t have made a whole lot of sense.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 6:43 p.m. CST

    Lonegrin/Lohengrin and Robin Good/Robin Goodfellow

    by Smegohki

    I think it&#39;s reasonable to think the Lonegrin-Lohengrin connection is there IF the Robin Good-Robin Goodfellow turns out to be true. I&#39;m interested in finding out the names of other teachers at the school, if this theory is correct. Hm, the swan knight and a shape-shifting mischief maker. I think I need to do some research into other countries&#39; folk tales.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 6:57 p.m. CST

    quoting Thalya

    by kodachikuno

    Quote from Thalya: "I think alot of you people need to start viewing the show for what it is instead of imparting your pathetic hopes and dreams that nowhere near approach the essence of the show." I personally think some of you people need to start WATCHING the show before you come here ranting about inconsistencies and things that don&#39;t work. If you can&#39;t remember shit that happened a season or 2 ago, how are you going to make any kind of intelligent rational argument that anyone on this talkback is going to take seriously. Sorry for the multitude of short comments, I&#39;m still attempting to wade through this talkback session. And in case it didn&#39;t get cleared up early, California does have stuatory rape laws. Anyone under the age of 18 is a minor (I don&#39;t even know why stuatory rape is being debated here ^^;)

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 8:27 p.m. CST

    Dawn&#39;s Little Friends . . .

    by Ravenwing263

    Besides the things already mentioned, there is another reason Dawn could have drifted away from Janice and her friends from "The Body" . . . we know that Cordelia slowly drifted away from her old friends when she became a Scoobie auxilary in S2. Also, the Scoobies have remarkably few friends that they don&#39;t meet when someone&#39;s trying to kill them. I theorize that keeping the secret of the supernatural stuff in Sunnydale is difficult when you spend a lot of time fighting it. Thus, when Dawn just sorta knew about it and was kept away from it as much as possible, she had normal social skills, but when Buffy started spending her nights training her to fight them directly . . . she started becoming one of the Scoobies and not just associated as Buffy&#39;s sister and frequent damsel-in-distress (even if the Scoobies were just Buffy and Xander over the summer), and drifted away from her normal friends.

  • Sept. 26, 2002, 9:37 p.m. CST

    Come to think of it . . .

    by Ravenwing263

    . . . does anyone know the names of the characters and the people who played Dawn&#39;s friend and the guy she liked in "All the Way"? Or where I could find it?

  • Sept. 27, 2002, 12:18 a.m. CST

    Ravenwing, RE Dawn&#39;s Friends

    by Drath

    According to, they were Rae&#39;ven Larrymore Kelly as Lisa, J. Evan Bonifant as Kevin, and Kelli Garner as Kirstie. I can&#39;t find my tape of that episode, so I&#39;ve completely forgotten which one was the black girl who had the most lines--I think she was Kevin, but I could be wrong.------That&#39;s a good point about Scoobies being initiated when thrown into a life or death situation with the rest of the gang. If I remember, Riley wasn&#39;t really a member until he and Buffy fought the Gentlemen, Oz wasn&#39;t a full fledged member until he survived an attack with the gang in "What&#39;s My Line," and even Tara I think didn&#39;t become Willow&#39;s friend until they both survived an attack(I think that was also in "Hush"). However, that didn&#39;t necessarily make someone a Scoob every time, as that guy trapped with Xander by the bug lady in season one never became a scoob, and we&#39;ve never again seen the group trapped in Buffy&#39;s house last season(and then there was Parker in season 4). Also, characters can be initiated after numerous appearances, so those old friends could still be brought back. I&#39;d bring back the girl who was with Dawn in the bathroom anyway. She was cool.

  • Sept. 27, 2002, 12:20 a.m. CST

    Welcome to High School, Dawn

    by Voice O. Reason

    I&#39;d just like to point out that in SOME school districts, jr. high includes 9th grade, so high school doesn&#39;t start until the 10th grade. Although I do believe Buffy asked for Dawn to be suspended for 30 years.

  • Sept. 27, 2002, 11:51 a.m. CST


    by Ravenwing263

    Thanks for the info, Drath. BTW, both Parker and Scott from S3 are exceptions to my theory. Anyway, Scott was driven away from Buffy by her darkness, so that&#39;s sort of an exception that proves the rule. Parker wasn&#39;t interested in being friends with Buffy, just getting into her pants. Also, just because nearly all of the group&#39;s friends were met during vital danger doesn&#39;t mean that everyone they meet in vital danger becomes a friends, I guess. (Anyone else think Owen from S1 would&#39;ve made a cool Scoobie?) Another thing that goes against my theory is this: Janice and Dawn were in vital danger together in "All the Way" weren&#39;t they? I mean, they were about to get killed by vampires. And I think Lisa was the black girl. Mostly because Kevin is a guy&#39;s name. All though she could be Kristie.

  • Sept. 27, 2002, 2:23 p.m. CST

    I was kidding

    by Drath

    Yes, the girl from the bathroom was named Lisa. Kevin was the boy who Dawn was into but had called her "freaky" and sent her into adolescent bathroom-y angst, while Kirstie was a Cordelia/Harmony style bane of Dawn&#39;s life--although I think the rivalry was more sublte than Harm or Cordy ever were. I don&#39;t remember Janice much from All the Way, but I remember thinking the vampire boyfriend story was a missed opportunity to bring Dawn into the drama. I&#39;d love to see Buffy deal with Dawn going through the same events she went through in season 2 with a lover gone bad--only Buffy is now in Joyce&#39;s role. I guess they don&#39;t want the focus to shift away from Buffy that much. I just figure Buffy, knowing the pain she felt and wanting to spare Dawn the same thing, would involve herself a lot more than Joyce did, leaving room for some real heartache. ------ I know, Parker was a jerk, but wasn&#39;t it fun watching him get humiliated? I guess it was a finite joke. Hope Andrew and Jonathan will be back, they are very suited for the Scoobie gang.

  • Sept. 27, 2002, 8:20 p.m. CST

    LA clippers are visiting sunnydale in ep. 11.7!!!

    by Genome

    ...and now that i have ur attention. I saw the season premiere of BtVS season 7 and Im doing a lotta lovin. I saw some worrying similarities to season 3 and 4 episodes but other than that it was great. The Willow/Giles thing just bugged the hell outta me. I think its nice Willows going through the remorse thing but not only is it not nearly as interesting as Angel&#39;s version(ie. hook up with young blonde slayer and then go evil and kill ppl) I just dont have the patience to sit through any more of my favorite redheads whining. Um...Buffy&#39;s reaction to Spike...was...creepy/ Amnesia seemed to get the better of her then or did she just forget who he was?...Now I know she was busy looking for the misplaced sister...but seriously...who really cares whether dawn lives or dies....OH and spinoff of btvs using dawn as slayer=veeeeery bad idea. Faith being gay...i have nothing against gays or anything...but c&#39;mon...I dont want my fav slayer rubbing carpets with other would be interesting to play around with for a while when willow and tara were first getting to know each other. However once it became for real, i found myself severely grossed out. Being a guy(a very manly guy at that) u&#39;d think id be intrigued by girl on girl action, but willow and tara took it to a level that...killed the interest. And yes my worst character is and always will be Anya. Adam shoulda killed her back in s4. How she stuck around so long is just strange to me. OH OH OH ive just got the sweetest idea for a btvs movie finale....watchout for that.

  • Sept. 27, 2002, 8:35 p.m. CST


    by Genome

    ....called Buffy the vampire slayer: The communion of the slayer. starts with an ancient battle with vampires and other demons against a hell of a lotta calvary...u know...medieval stuff. Anyway, at the last minute when it seems that the demons are about to win, a new wave of knights sweep in, led by a female warrior...maybe joan of arc...and she is a slayer, and they go in fight and fight until the sun comes up and the armies of hell are forced to retreat in defeat. Here&#39;s the twist...the leader of the demons is of course the master...he fumes about how this battle was supposed to be the end of the earth...armageddon and then he says that another time will come. Flash to modern day LA...Angel fighting demons and stuff...Cordy has a vision... somehting really big n evil is coming. Wes is still working at W&H and he knows, as a matter of fact the company is setting the whole thing up. Enter the long awaited merging of Angel Investigations with the Scooby Gang to stop this new evil. There is a betrayal, a slayer is freed from prison and the apocalypse is upon us. The movie should last about three hrs...look a hell of a lot like Lord of the rings and will be a box office hit not to mention have a cliff hanger ending that will set the stage for a Buffy the vampire slayer: The two slayers.

  • Sept. 28, 2002, 5:10 p.m. CST

    Oh shoot... Season 7&#39;s spoiled...


    I dunno, it sounds right... if Wood&#39;s a Watcher, and Dawn becomes a Slayer... No questions asked, or at least not as many posed here... then Dawn might keep it all her little secret. To boost her aptly-noted weak identity. Buffy was even freaking out about "mom hair"... imagine what happens, the season half-way in, she finds out Dawn has super-powers! And that talisman right where the female scrappy was sitting... suspicious... I remember a foreshadowingy camera move on her as well. Not that I usually dread paper thin characters...

  • Sept. 29, 2002, 4:08 a.m. CST

    Buffy Movie

    by Ellitterate


  • Sept. 30, 2002, 3:57 p.m. CST

    what about oz???

    by Freak_of_nature

    hey everyone. first post but i&#39;ve been reading this stuff forever. two things to say: 1.anywho, I think there would be a chance oz might somehow come back.(I hated them as a couple, though.) in new moon rising, right before he left, willow said:"i feel like a part of me will always be waiting for you." and then she said something like:"so if i turn the corner in Istanbul...." and they just had a scene in Istanbul! probaly has nothing to do with it but whatever. I also read somewhere that they had been planning to kill Tara for some time, so it sorta makes sense.... By the way, anyone else think killing Tara was a horrible idea???? willow&#39;s no fun without her! I totally dont think W&O should hook up again, but it dawned on me the other day. AND it sorta would be an insult to Tara&#39;s memory. besides, unless willow turns out to be bi, a person really can&#39;t un-gay themselves. 2. I know everyone is saying that thing about the "its about power" line, which i did realize right off the bat, but when buff is trying to get to the door, she says "if at first you don&#39;t suceed", also said by dark willow. as for her being the BB this season, it wouldn&#39;t make sense, but niether did the willow being BB. oh!and one more thing before i shut up:ENOUGH WITH THE "DUSHKU TO DAWN" THING!!!