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The Farmer's Son comments on the scoring for THE TWO TOWERS and tells us how the film opens - as of now!!!

Hey folks, Harry here... OH MAN... OH... Not Fair... ARGH! Gollum in the marshes... ACK!!!! TWITCH TWITCH!!! ACK!!!! Man, ya know... I get lucky in life quite a bit. More than I ever deserve. In exactly 7 days from the moment you read this I'll be atop a mountain in China at a Shaolin Temple watching the shooting of Tarantino's latest film, KILL BILL. That's pretty cool. In fact, that's unbelievably fucking awesome beyond words. In fact... I'm totally sated with that being my future reality. But - oh man... They're scoring TWO TOWERS... LIVE!!! ARGH!!! Oh man, that's just... too cool. Well, perhaps I need to beg some god or goddess out there to get me bigger ears and eyes to see with, because... there's so much coolness in this world, even as there is so much badness... I, like most of you, just wish to be at all the cool spots of the world, and right now... Watford Town Hall in the UK is possibly the coolest fucking place on Earth! Here ya go...

Hey Harry.  

A friend of a friend is involved in the recording of the Two Towers soundtrack at Watford Town Hall in the UK. This is a recording location of particular significance, some would say the best orchestral venue in the UK. Simon Rattle, possibly our most famous conductor, refused to record orchestral music anywhere BUT there for years.  

They are doing it reel by reel, syncing the orchestra with the movie. There a monitors dotted around with the film running, and the players have a lot to deal with. Usually, you simply watch the conductor, but in this case, they are using a 'click' track, to exactly match up moments in the film with the playing. This is very hard to deal with, as Howard Shore is conducting at the same time, kind of like having two conflicting directors. There is lots of stopping and starting to deal with, editing the score while you're recording is no easy feat. Mr Jackson has been seen around offering his input.  

My personal query is.... how the hell can you do this stuff knowing that the edit of the film is bound to change between now and the film's release?  

I thought I might name the opening scene for you: Gollum in the marshes!  

I may provide more info as recording continues. I know you want to hear the sessions Harry, but I can't ask for that!  

You can call me 'The Farmer's Son'

Readers Talkback
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  • Aug. 16, 2002, 8:39 a.m. CST

    So it begins.

    by Nordling

    YOu know that funny feeling? That addiction, that need, that HUNGER? Just kicked into overdrive today. Mmm...LOTR goodness.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 8:45 a.m. CST

    I knew i should have kept up my violin lessons..

    by BigMother mother was always telling me it would pay off someday! Damn it. Mind you, if i was in that orchestra, i would be finding it VERY difficult to concentrate on the notes on the page!!! And Gollum in the marshes....ugh,nugh....eeerhgah...ftttp.......TRANSLATION: Geek speak for "ROLL ON DECEMBER!!!"

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 9:27 a.m. CST

    PJ apparantly had a rough cut of TT a while back, so he's mo

    by Coatsy UK we are just waiting on Mr Shore and the people at WETA to weave those last few magical threads.... Fuck, i can't wait!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Appetite: sufficiently whetted.

    by Edison

    With the appetizer 2-disk DVD to the main-course 4 disk behemoth coming later, and little tidbits like this, I am chomping at the bit for The Two Towers. Bring it on, Peter! We wantses it!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 9:53 a.m. CST

    still over 100 days to wait

    by fun guy

    we have to wait four damn months to see this movie. we all need to relax, watch our FOTR dvd, and try to maintain composure.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 9:54 a.m. CST

    These soundtracks simply suck ass, hard..

    by elf_killer18

    The music was nothing special, neither was the film. It was long and boring and bombed money wise. Every LOTR fanboy regards this at the the shitty, boring edition anyway.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 9:55 a.m. CST

    I'm sorry, I cannot possibly wait.

    by Haldir_is_Fat

    On another note, the same way when I was a kid, all British Accents reminded me of Monty Python, now stuff like this in New Zealand makes me think of "Braindead": 'In comments published Friday, Ted Matthews said he amputated his finger earlier this week. Another finger had already rotted off.' (remove the space between news? and tmpl for the photo) tmpl=story2&u=/020816/168/21sru.html

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 10:25 a.m. CST

    Hobbit Love

    by MinasTirith

    Still hum the Hobbit Theme a lot. New TTT film and 3 hours and 14 minutes so far, Helms Deep is at 50 minutes long!!!!!! WHOAH!!!O!O!O!O!O!O!!!!!!!!!!!!! On a side not, ATOC has not surpassed $300 million yet in the USA, LOL!!!!!!!! Talk about one suck of a movie that was!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 10:25 a.m. CST

    ". It was long and boring and bombed money wise"

    by spideyman1218

    Yeah, I know!! It's only the 5TH highest grossing film of all time!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 10:35 a.m. CST

    I thought I heard a while back that one of the first images of t

    by Ralph Cifaretto

    I do hope we get an extended sequence of the wizard fighting the Balrog. & I hope we see some flying Ringwraiths.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 11:09 a.m. CST


    by Aranel

    Oh god shit help when's the next plane to UK???? This is totallz awesome! I just can't wait any longer! I want to seee itttt!!!:o)

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 11:31 a.m. CST

    It can't start in the marshes

    by ArPharazon

    The film can't start with Gollum in the Dead Marshes. They have to go through the Eymn Muil first. Heck, we've watched the scene where Gollum creeps down the cliff face. That HAS to occur before the Marshes. I like the idea of starting the movie with Gandalf's battle with the Balrog and "death" on the mountaintop. It would be better than doing it as a flashback like they do in the book.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 11:41 a.m. CST

    In regards to elf_killer18 or what ever it is

    by Harrierthanthee

    If you don't like the movie why don't you just watch somthing you do like you shitting on the keyboard and letting it write for you. I thought it was a Great movie but I don't think anyone really wants to hear it.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 12:11 p.m. CST

    Re: starting in the marshes

    by RulingRing

    I seem to recall that FOTR was rife with trips down memory lane and other such tricks dealing with time. Maybe it flashes back, maybe its a "things to come" bit. Im sure PJ will handle it all just fine. On another note, Harry it would be a great service if you guys would ban all *killer + *elf handles. He was funny once upon a time. But nowadays his bile and poor grammar just bore me.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 12:26 p.m. CST

    Just watched FOTR for the second time...

    by Aquafresh

    ... and I feel qualified to make some objective statements. I did not care for the music, specifically the awful, Titanic inspired flute noodling. just plain bad and unimaginitive. Ian mc Kellan is simply awesome. Can't wait to see Gollum as he is my favorite character in the books. Elijah is creepy. Real creepy. Don't care for hobbits in general... the special effects look better on the small screen, particularly the Balrog. All in all, a soid B+ in my opinion...TTT will be better , simply because of the Gollum/ Dead Marshes. They cant fuck that up. Some other thoughts.... LOTR nerds now rival Star Trek nerds in nerdliness. If you spend your time complaining about how the "horn of Gondor" sounds, abandon all hope. Oh and I would like to remind all of you that Spider-Man kicked both AOTC and FOTR's asses. There can be only one franchise champion this year, & Spidey is it! In your face!!!!!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 12:33 p.m. CST

    A little piece of history, people

    by Seepgood

    This is probably the first and last time that anyone will ever describe Watford Town Hall (or anywhere else in Watford for that matter) as "possibly the coolest fucking place on Earth". A special moment.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 12:49 p.m. CST

    Jedi Killer

    by MattO

    Yes, Elf Killjoy, the FOTR score sucked ass- all the way to an Oscar! And FOTR kicked AOTC's ass in both domestic and worldwide gross! Deal with it, Laser Brain. You just can't stand that the Star Wars scene is completely "UN-cool" now, and that LOTR is everywhere and will be for the next 5 years. Everyone knows that the last two Lucas films were soul-less techno-orgies that raped millions more childhoods. We should put out an "Amber Alert" every time Lucas issues one of his "Soap Opera-Level acting" trainwrecks. I think Lucas is setting some kind of record for exposing people to bad cinema.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 12:58 p.m. CST

    Watford - Epicentre of Cool?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Well, sounds unlikely to me, but we do live in strange times. Dammit. I was invited to London this weekend and said no, like a tool. I hate everybody and everything. Especially you, reading this right now. (Waves at morGy) Hello there!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 1:11 p.m. CST

    It's going to be good....

    by brena

    so good! I can't wait for Two Towers to get here especially since my precious LOTR DVD has me salivating again....I wish that they would release these movies closer together and not a year apart.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 1:25 p.m. CST

    distortions of continuity--Jackson can do it.

    by Karma Police

    For all of you bitching about the correct order of events and how implausible it is for the film to open with Gollum in the marshes--just chill out and enjoy this news. We've been waiting how long to see what Weta, et al. can do with Gollum ... We only got a few dark shots in FOTR, a few vague shots on the FOTR DVD, and some scattered pics on internet, and that's it. But now Jackson's (supposedly) showing us Gollum at the opening of the film, which I couldn't be happier about. That said, even if it does distort Tolkien's continuity, Jackson can handle it--FOTR was rife with such flashbacks/forwards and the like, and yet he still managed to stay true to the spirit of the books and tell the story as well as anyone possibly could while transferring mediums. I love both the book and film of FOTR--for very different reasons--and even if Jackson is opening with a flashforward or whatever, I'm optimistic that the same will be the case for TTT.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 1:29 p.m. CST

    FoTR won an OscarTM for that score?

    by Aquafresh

    'Cause i really hated it. C'mon you guys, it sounded just like Titanic! Didn't that win an OscarTM for the score? I'm not trying to troll here, I just feel really strong about that score kind of wrecking parts of the movie for me. Remember when scores for big budget blockbusters were actually good? Star Wars, Raiders, Superman, Alien, Blade Runner.... all classic, perfect scores. Hell, even the first Batman was good. Now we get this Howard Shore crap, and Williams and Elfman just recycling their better moments.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 2:05 p.m. CST

    Ocho, I think you meant "subjective"...

    by daughter of time

    ...because you are only expressing your opinions, and "objective" they are not. You are entitled to 'em, but at least call them by the right name. As for Shore's score being "Titanic"-inspired, what rubbish! The flute, objectively speaking, is one of the world's oldest instruments, and neither Horner, nor the Irish, have a corner on it. What the flute does very well is convey pastoral simplicity. Tolkien many times makes references to flutes, harps and drums, these being the instruments that would be accessible to the cultures he describes. If anything, I was surprised at how much Shore shied away from Celtic-inspired music, particularly in the Lorien scenes. As for Enya, she has one of the purest, most timeless, and therefore, Elvish-sounding, voices around today, and I think (subjectively) her use was entirely appropriate, if not perhaps as exciting a choice as (might have been) Loreena McKinnett.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 2:07 p.m. CST

    Oh, that reminds me....

    by Aquafresh

    ... the best score in recent memory has to be "Signs". It was brilliant. Kind of like "Jaws" meets "Psycho". Givew that guy an OscarTM!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 2:19 p.m. CST


    by Roosterbooster

    Watford cool. Whatever next? Anyway I just wanted to whine about the Fellowship dvd, there were digital artifacts visible in many of the dark scenes on my copy. I don't think it's my hardware at fault. Also the 5.1 track wasn't much cop, lacked oomph. One thing ticked me off - in the preview of the extended edition it shows Boromir being swatted by the troll. This is ridiculous, nobody could possibly survive that, every bone would be shattered and every organ pulped. I know it's a fantasy film but it's a "realistic" fantasy film grounded in reality. The laws of physics remain the same. I suppose that scene must have made the final cut but it'll undermine my suspension of disbeleif a hell of a lot.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 2:22 p.m. CST

    Ok, Im spending too much time on this thread...

    by Aquafresh

    What I meant by "objective" is that I am not a completley dyed in the wool LOTR's fan, so my opinion may be seen as being more objective than others that regularly post on LOTR threads. The whole reason we get this ridiculous SW vs. LOTR "war" is that fans of these franchises tend to lack objectivity concerning the franchise of their favor. It should go without saying that an opinion is subjective... I hold all opinions in equal regard and try not to make any statement without first qualifying it as an opinion and nothing more. Talkbacks are all about exchanging information and opinions, after all. Also, I am a musician myself and am a big fan of traditional Irish or gaellic music, so I am well aware of the influences Howard Shore references in his score. Unfortunatley, rather than crafting something more unique by using authentic Irish instumentations (handdrum, banjo, fiddle all come to mind... tell me that wouldn't sound cool.) Shore relies on a tired orhestration that is very much reminiscent of the cloying Titanic theme. Just my opinion, of course. Sorry for any typos I make today, I'm kind of out of it.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 2:23 p.m. CST

    Works for me!

    by Dr. Theopolis

    Hey, I for one love the music for FotR, though I also feel that some of the Celtic flute pieces bear a lot of similarity to those from Titanic. I was very disappointed with Danny Elfman's score for Spider-Man however. Sounded a helluva lot like his work on Batman to me. Spider-Man is a younger, light-hearted hero. I'd hoped they would have kept the alternative music from the teasers in the film. I can't stand a single thing on the soundtrack CD though. Oh well. I loved the film itself, so I guess if the music is my only complaint I should be pleased.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 2:43 p.m. CST

    LOTR Soundtrack

    by Harry Proudfoot

    I thought the soundtrack was the dogs bollox. Every track just great. The first track, however, is not in the film, and the main theme (which is used in the menu on the DVD disk One) is not on the cd! I am sure Howard Shore is again putting together something special for the Two Towers. Probably the same theme running through all three movies, with variations. By the way someone said on here that Spiderman kicked LOTR ass. What a load of crap. Its over 100 million behind and will never close the gap. LOTR will dominate the fantasy market for the next three years. The biggest rip off of 2001 was the film, A Beautiful Mind, stealing the Oscar from LOTR. never in a month of Sundays was Mind better than Rings. I think the people that voted should hang their pae brained heads in utter shame. Cheers

  • Except for maybe Wojciech Kilar or Clint Mansell. Yes, Shore borrows freely from obvious influences, but he uses all these techniques for emotional underpinning and psychological impact. This is not John Williams bombast -- it is music that has the sole intent of enhancing the mood and atmosphere of the scene at hand. How anyone can listen to the FotR score and deny the beauty and/or power of tracks like "The Great River" or all of the Moria music or "Lament for Gandalf" or "The Breaking of the Fellowship" or the mournful cue that comes in right after the fall of Gandalf...well, it is frickin' beyond me. But, if that's your opinion, okay. Still, FotR deserved that Oscar, big time. It was easily, EASILY the best score of that year, which was pretty lackluster in terms of original film music. No other score even came close. And it certainly isn't the first good score that Shore put out... his Silence of the Lambs score and all of his scores for Cronenberg and Fincher are great pieces of work.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 3:11 p.m. CST

    Hmm.. (spoilers if you haven't read the book)

    by paleobio84

    I wonder what opening he means? The opening with The Lord of the Rings title, Cate Blanchett narration like in FotR, or the actual start of the film's story? If it's the former I wonder if there's going to be some explanation of Gollum's origins...this could be taken to be "Gollum in the marshes", I don't know...because how can the film open with Gollum in the dead marshes when FotR ends with Sam & Frodo still in Emyn Muil? from trailers they're still in Emyn muil at some point in TTT....and that's where Gollum technically should meet doesn't seem to make sense. ack. anyway i can't wait for this damn film!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 3:11 p.m. CST

    Ocho, I LOVE Irish music...

    by daughter of time

    ...though it sounds like what you wanted in FOTR was something even more authentically Irish (and therefore, less authentically hobbit) than what we got. My own CD shelves are about equally divided between classical/opera, classic film scores, and Irish/Scottish (go Battlefield Band!), and I think Carolan should be esteemed as highly as Mozart (as should Miklos Rozsa). But, each to his own. Slainte.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 3:26 p.m. CST

    I agree with Ocho

    by Lizzybeth

    I found the FOTR score to be terribly pedestrian, and it actually detracted from the film for me. Music is a crucial element to Tolkien's work and this was a big disappointment. The "Fellowship Theme" just makes me cringe. Nevertheless, I eagerly anticipate TTT, and aside from the score I thought PJ did Tolkien proud. I can always pipe in some Stravinsky or something for the proper effect down the road.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 3:29 p.m. CST

    more rantings...

    by Aquafresh

    It would be naive to expect an "authentic" Celtic score for a big budget opus like LOTR. The scope of the story demands a sweeping, majestic score. But my hopes are that for the smaller, quieter moments of the story we will get more imaginitave, smaller arrangements from Shore. I am certainly not debating that as a film composer, Shore is a hack or anything, I just have not fallen in love with any of his pieces. In fact, a poster above listed off some of his credits, and I have to say that I was not big on the scores for any of those films. Certainly in most cases Shore's work does not DETRACT from the films, but really nothing jumps out at me... Silence Of The Lambs fares best I think. Also, I have to retract my (facetious) statement that Spider-Man kicked LOTR at the box office... I stand corrected. I really didnt think FOTR had made that much... it certainly did it quietly. Good for PJ, he deserves it.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 3:29 p.m. CST


    by Lizzybeth

    (obviously, Stravinsky is the wrong cultural vantage point, but I'm thinking "sense of magic/grandeur/wonder" here.)

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 4:06 p.m. CST

    The FOTR score..

    by Sepulchrave

    didn't really gel for me the first time, though I've grown to like it more and more, as I have the movie, once I realised with a giant shock that, for once, someone had done everything, not right, but from the right motives. The score, I have to say, seems to be incorporated in to the soundtrack a little too high, it drowns out the words sometimes,and that can't be right. Casepoint: Gandalf enters the main halls in Moria and lets out this nice line about 'Let us risk a little more light' the score here is ay its best, with a lovely swell as the pillars emerge from the darkness, but the volume almost completely erases the phrase. I thought that the score might have been more effective if they'd left more periods of silence, especially during lulls in the action, short conversations. McKellan's voice is like music anyway, it hardly needs augnmentation. And, for the record, Irish tarditional bands don't use the banjo, and the hand drum referred to is called a bodhran (pronounced bauwrawn), so there you are..

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 4:10 p.m. CST

    On the people worrying about the opening sequence with gollum...

    by Halloween68

    I wouldn't worry. I've actually seen a film score being recorded... They often times film sequences out of order. It's whatever the schedule dictates, and it often times has to do with which musicians are available for that particular day. For example, in the first film... All the choir bits were more than likely done at separate times from the straight forward orchestral bits. Just thought I'd let you know. A lot can dictate how a score is recorded, and in what sequence. So before you get too excited or disappointed about which scene comes first, remember, we're talking about recording the score here, not the final cut of the film. It's all part of post-production.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 4:23 p.m. CST

    objectivity vs. personal taste

    by Aquafresh

    OK, I don't want to go into this much more because I really don't want to seem like the kind of person who "wrecks the party" for everyone else. For the most part, I liked FOTR. I wasn't crazy about the score, particularly the cloying celtic flute theme used to bash you over the head that it was hobbit friendship time. morGoth, all due respect & all, but you are a constant presence here at the LOTR threads, you are very vocal about your love for the film & books. And more power to you. But you cannot be OBJECTIVE about the subject matter. You are already sold on anything LOTR that doesnt totally suck. What I'm getting at here is that if I was a third party who was looking for criticism of LOTR, I wouldn't look to you, I would look to someone like myself who doesn't have a lot of personal investment in the franchise. This is probably the wrong place for such objectivity, but I am here nonetheless. And of course it is all just my objective opinion; I am not confusing the two, they work in tandem. Anyway, I look forward to TTT and ROTK and won't try to diminish from anyones enjoyment from the films. If new-agey Enya music is your bag, knock yourselves out!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 4:33 p.m. CST


    by Aquafresh

    I am a banjo player, and many of the "traditional" Irish bands I have seen perform have featured a tenor banjo (4 strings as apposed to the American 5 string version.), hence my interest. Now I may not be talking about truly "authentic" Irish music, but I grew up in Boston and the Irish pub circuit there is pretty formidable. The songs these people play are all traditional standards. The Pogues, while not strictly traditional, also have a tenor banjoist. It seems pretty common to me.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 4:52 p.m. CST

    Shore's Score

    by Movietool

    I loved it. Sweeping, emotional, memorable. I'm really looking forward to hearing what he does in TTT.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 5:08 p.m. CST

    A Gollum - Todd McFarlane figure

    by KONG33

    May we all live to see it. The marshes must be great, but we all have such different imaginations... I'm concerned about them adding Gollum scenes, because if you add or remove something it tends to stand out, like Sam dancing or the other two hobbits setting off fireworks, I hadn't read the book and it was noticeably 'off'.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 5:22 p.m. CST

    FOTR Score

    by KONG33

    It was nice, but still too repetitive (I know it's the fashion). I hope TTT score is very different, but with consistency...

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 5:50 p.m. CST

    uncool star wars "scene"

    by mr. smith

    is there a star wars "scene"? a lord of the rings "scene"? one is "cool" and the other is not? As Triumph the Comic Dog asked-which arcade is your honeymoon at? jeez. take a shower.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 5:53 p.m. CST

    lots of (subjectivley) bad music resonates with people, morGoth.

    by Aquafresh

    ... I'm sure "We Built This City" by Starship resonated with plenty of people, but it's still the worst pop song of all time, in my opinion. For the record, all I said about Enya was that her music was "new agey". Is that point really up for debate? I have no problem with you defending your opinion. I never did. My comments about you were not meant as personal attacks; I don't presume to know you. But in the talkback arena, you have demonstrated an extensive knowledge and love for all things LOTR, and you rush to its defense whenever someone starts a trollin'. In my mind, this qualifies you as a LOTR fan-person. By your own admission, LOTR fanpeople generally seem have a problem with objectivity, at least when it comes to LOTR. I never said you weren't objective about ANYTHING. Just LOTR. And I don't know many musicians who don't feel pretty strongly about different types of music. So, if you want to throw it back in my face, you might say that as a musician, it would be hard for me to be OBJECTIVE about music, since I have a personal investment in it. And I'll accept that criticism. But I still don't like Shore's score.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 5:58 p.m. CST

    What you are missing altogether, Ocho...

    by daughter of time

    ... is that "objectivity" has absolutely nothing to do with music's power to move us, and especially film music, which is its whole purpose for being. Film music EXISTS to heighten and underscore the emotion of a scene. The words in an opera are usually dreck; the music expands and makes the emotions universal and timeless. (The same could be said for folk music.) Music tends to be MUCH MORE POTENT than words. If FOTR's score did not succeed for you, if it failed to move you, that doesn't make you any more "objective" than those who listened to it (like me) and were moved to tears, because it DID strick a chord in our hearts. It was only on repeated viewings (many more than two) that I realized how successful the score was, because some of it is so subtle it is practically subliminal. That "cloying... flute theme" you cite (which may or may not have been inspired by the hymn "This is My Father's World," with which it shares its opening phrase)is perfect, in my subjective opinion, in its subtle evocation of both nature and spirituality, but that is because I BRING TO IT many different experiences, including memories of that hymn (before I even made the conscious connection), whereas you, bringing entirely different emotional experience to it, do not care for it. For me, its recurrence throughout the film was a gentle tug at the heart, NOT a "bashing ... over the head." (You think a phrase like that is objective?) If there is any objectivity, it should come from Shore's peers and rivals, and we know how they voted.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 6:13 p.m. CST

    daughter of time...

    by Nordling

    Well said. PERFECTLY said. I personally think LOTR's score is the best score to come down the pike in some time. The only score last year that comes close (and I'm not sure if it got a nomination or not, but it certainly deserved one) was AMELIE.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 6:14 p.m. CST

    Damn, I wish there were a way to go back and fix typos....

    by daughter of time

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 6:33 p.m. CST

    ummm... daughter of time...

    by Aquafresh

    its the LYRICS that tend to be important in folk music. Not the music. Its the narrative of the words, passing down stories, etc. Often times, musically, folk songs are the same few chords repeated, add infinitum. Many songs are really just the exact same song structures with different lyrics. At least in American folk music. I suppose you could debate me on this if you want, but I know what I'm talking about here. Now, let me clarify things by saying that what I have been saying all along, is that I feel that I can be more objective about FOTR ON THE WHOLE than most of the people here. And the music is just one small part of that whole. And sure, to you the score worked. (And let me say that your statements stregthen my "new agey" remarks; you say the hobbit theme invoked nature & spirituality for you. Well, thats just what new age music is trying to do, even though it really doesnt have much to do with nature or spirituality. Synthesized flutes do not equal nature. We've just been conditioned to think that they do.) For me, the score was trying to hard to pluck my heartstrings. I'm not manipulated so easily, I guess.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 6:38 p.m. CST

    "Manipulated so easily."

    by Nordling

    That's funny. I guess fans of the score can't appreciate "real music." Thanks for clearing that up, Ocho. I guess I'll get my tone deaf ass to some banjoing! Fuck yeah! Got my Big Red right here. I'm ready.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 6:44 p.m. CST

    don't put words in my mouth, Nordling

    by Aquafresh

    Never said anything about "real music". And I certainly couldn't give a flying fuck if you like banjos or not. You are usually an intelligent poster. What gives? Bad day?

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 7:52 p.m. CST

    Not everyone is going to like the Score

    by nazismasher

    Personally, I really don't veer toward gaelic music - not my cup of tea - and I'm not a huge fan of contemporary film scores but what Howard Shore did for LotR is real stand out work. I remember a few months after it came out and having a conversation about it in the lobby at the Houston Opera and thinking how great it is to have film music again you can discuss and appreciate interspersed with arguments about Wagner or Eugene Onegin without it seeming too geeky or hokey. I really feel you guys that try to name a list of great film music and can only come up with the likes of Superman, Star Wars, etc. or try to compare with Titanic have missed the forest for the trees. Pick up a copy of "Ivan the Terrible", "Alexander Nevsky", wonderful pastiche like the "Gadfly", and "Poruchuik Kizhe". Film music didn't begin in the late 70's. I'm glad Shore decided to steer against the superficial rewards of contemporary film scores and instead brought back that much more rewarding feel of the great masters when orchestral music was nearer to the time when it was popular art instead of being confined to a clique.

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 8:10 p.m. CST

    Melody vs. Lyrics in Folk Music

    by daughter of time

    Ocho, to just use one example, do you think more people love the lyrics of "Greensleeves" or the melody? Ralph Vaughan Williams'"Fantasia on Greensleeves" manages to be a deeply moving piece of music without a word in it, by EVOKING a complex web of thoughts and emotions through a familiar folk tune. The very fact that folk tunes appear over and over with slight variations over great distances (Scotland, Appalachia, China) with entirely different lyrics means that it is the music that endures, long after we have stopped having any direct experience of arranged marriages and highwaymen. I loved the tune "Sally Gardens" for years before I ever heard the lyrics, which added nothing to my enjoyment, and "Rosin the Bow" (which must go by 101 names) is equally haunting as a song in Scottish Gaelic and a wordless piano accompaniment to Ken Burns' documentary on the Brooklyn Bridge. *** As for flute music being perceived (again by emotional association) as spiritual and pastoral, I'm afraid that goes all the way back to Pan pipes, and can hardly be linked with "new age" music. Try the Swedish choral recording of "God in Disguise," circa 1930s. ***I am more curious how on earth you perceive Elijah Wood's Frodo as "creepy"! And please don't tell us that's an objective response....

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 10:01 p.m. CST

    It's Trollariffic!!

    by Nocturnaloner

    Y'ever think there might be trolls who specialize in LOTR talkbacks?.... NAAAAAAHHHH!!!

  • Aug. 16, 2002, 11:02 p.m. CST

    Does anyone read any of the posts here... if so...

    by cureff

    Turn off your computer and go outside for like the first time in probably a week. Stop pretending to be a Morlock, the sun is your friend. Enjoy life, well... get one, THEN enjoy it. Gez. I read like three posts than gave up once again on this site. These threads need some moderators or something just so that there can be actual intelligent conversation and we can weed out the retards... But if we did that... who would be left, probably like three people. Ah well. No one is going to read this post, and I'm not coming back looking for any replies anyways, so as they say in these boards. You sux your cocks backside front you whore of the fuck nuts. Spielberg has sex with Lucas and their ugly babies are films they make when the suck like Tom Cruise is so Gay, and OH SHIT, I'm first, FIRST!!! oh and you have a beer and cheat on your dad and sleep with me! Bwa ha ha Cause that dude raped my childhood and any movie with walkie talkies sux azz fuck bolts and dick nuts! Sigh. This post wasted three minutes of my life. Damn.

  • Aug. 17, 2002, 12:04 a.m. CST

    Titanic/LOTR score

    by burden_you_bear

    I've read various talkbacks on people complaining about how the LOTR score sounded like the Titanic score. While this may be true(only sometimes), the Titanic score sounded nearly IDENTICAL to the Braveheart score. Watch Braveheart and you'll see what I'm talking about.

  • Aug. 17, 2002, 12:26 a.m. CST

    The flute

    by SFA

    Jesus H. Christ. Just because a soundtrack uses a certain instrument doesn't automaticaly mean they are simliar (or even stolen). The Hobbits Theme from FOTR is the only part of Shore's score that sounds 'Celtic'. The same instrument was used in Titanic, which is why some of you 'musical' people compare them. Shore's score is brilliant.

  • Aug. 17, 2002, 4:34 a.m. CST

    Hoofin it

    by Pabodie

    TTT will feature a lot of walking/running. Maybe it will inspire you all to get outside and get some exercise? =)

  • Aug. 17, 2002, 7:02 a.m. CST

    No one will read this anyway

    by jollysleeve

    I just gotta say. I know when everyone loves a movie, the temptation is to praise every single aspect of it. But guys, come on. You've got to admit that Howard Shore's music for FOTR was pretty damn mediocre. I was actually surprised at how lame it was (now that I've finally seen the movie) considering it was nominated for an Oscar. (Did it win?) In a way, it reminded me a lot of the music for Costner's The Postman, or ID4. (Of course, FOTR was way better then either of those movies, but I'm just talking about the music here.) You know. Generic sounding, "hero" music with a lot of bombastic trumpets and drums. Jeez, *I* could've written some of those heroic themes heard in FOTR, and I suck! The only really good parts were that subtle, queasy, dissonant strings Shore associated with the the evil of the ring, and *maybe* some of the Celtic vocal music. But other than that, it was just an empty vaccum--a wasted opportunity. Nothing to stir the soul. No haunting/memorable themes. Nothing to live in the mind for years to come. Man, that scene when the Fellowship finally begins their journey and we see them crossing the mountains, talk about a blown opportunity. That scene should've and could've been glorious, but the whole things was brought down by that turgid music. Someone agree with me. Please?........ and yes, the picture quality of the DVD transfer is appalling.

  • Aug. 17, 2002, 9:23 p.m. CST

    Jollysleeve, you sir are a Baboon, A Baboon!!!

    by Conan_the_Humble

    If you think the DVD transfer was "appalling" then you are obviously looking to get a rise out of people. Congratulations you've succeeded mightly. I currently own 85 DVD's , and it is my considered opinion that FOTR is the best picture I have seen on a DVD to date. The score is also magnificent and anyone who doesn't agree with me can kiss my arse. I couldn't care less about being "objective." I knows what I likes, and that's it. I am not a musician, (although I'm pretty handy with a triangle...) and couldn't care less what influence Howard Shore used for the score of this movie. I think it sounded lovely, and no arguments that you or anyone else could raise will ever change that. Btw we must be getting close to the time when a new trailer is released no? I've got my Broadband all fired up for some massive trailer downloads, 30meg, 40meg, piece of cake, bwahahahahhahhaha. Cheers.

  • Aug. 18, 2002, 5:02 a.m. CST

    as a film maker... I'm getting somewhat worried.

    by TheGinger Twit

    See I just didn't think FOTR was THAT great a film. Guess I'll have to see it again after all. Oh, and I have over 200 hundred soundtracks. FOTR is not what I'd class oscar winning material. Is this going to get my butt banned?

  • Aug. 18, 2002, 9:38 a.m. CST


    by jollysleeve

    Wow. That sucks. I criticize one *aspect* of a movie, and the geeks go ballistic. I wasn't even making a lame 2-line flame-bait post. If I had, then *maybe* it would've warranted so "passionate" a counter-atta--uh, response, but I didn't. I tried to cite specific examples to back up my (not-so-outrageous) point.......... Look, I wasn't lashing out at a popular movie in some attempt to look cool. I was simply criticizing one aspect of it--the music. Is it really so hard to fathom that a movie can generally be good--great even--yet not be perfect in every single way? Yes, the music was mediocre. Not terrible, just mediocre. I honestly didn't think I was making any kind of renegade statement by saying so. Spiderman was enjoyable, but I'd be damn surprised if many of that movie's fans would go to bat for Danny Elfman and say that it was one of his finest scores. (In fact, Elfman's batting average has been pretty low in recent years. Or am I wrong about that too?) ................. Yeah, I didn't know that Fellowship's score won the Oscar. So what? First of all, how is winning an Oscar validation of anything? And secondly, are you honestly telling me that keeping up on the latest tally of silly movie awards is a sign of a true film fan? Yeah, I guess I wasn't "paying attention" to who won the Oscar for best score. I also couldn't tell you any of last year's Blockbuster winners ...............Of *course* a lot of people praised the movie's score. They love the movie, and Shore's score accompanies the movie, so they make that association. The score isn't terrible. I never said it was. (For "terrible," see Eric Serra's music for The Messenger.) It's just not good enough to actually elevate or enhance the material. For many scenes, it's simply there. When I say it was a blown opportunity, I'm just thinking of what could have been........... And I'm a baboon, am I? Well I guess I can't argue with that, seeing as how you own 85 DVD's. (I could list the hundreds of movie soundtracks I own, in an attempt to add credibility to my statement about Shore's score, but somehow I don't think it would be seen as relevant.) Come on, how can someone get so threatened when someone criticizes the picture *transfer* of a DVD? I wasn't even talking about the quality of the movie--or the quality of the movie's picture--just the transfer-- and you act like I've insulted your mother. What the hell? That doesn't even make any sense. Does a family member work for New Line or something? That would be the same as getting all huffy if I criticized Balantine for choosing a hard-to-read font for their editions of the LOTR novels. If I said the extras on Disc 2 were kind of lame and repetative, would you go on a killing spree?............ Yes, the DVD transfer isn't too hot. (I used the stronger word "appalling" only because this is an epic, high profile blockbuster that deserved the red-carpet treatment.) I can only assume that it's the inevitable drawback of trying to fit a 3 hour movie on one disk, but I don't know. (Assuming it is, then I'm looking even more forward to November's expanded 2-disc DVD release.) I'd also be surprised to find many people willing to make the same claim that the Fellowship DVD is simply the absolute best looking DVD they own. (Have you ever seen The Others?) Is it the best sounding DVD you own too?

  • Aug. 18, 2002, 9:46 a.m. CST

    Re: Rereading the above

    by jollysleeve

    Okay, so my above post might've been a bit strong. (Of course, I still stand by everything I've said.) Still, it was a bit strong.

  • Aug. 18, 2002, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Fine. I'm a baboon with questionable "equipment."

    by jollysleeve

    I suppose it's possible that my setup is making the DVD picture look worse than it actually is. Although I would think that such a thing would negatively effect every DVD I played and not just a few. Either way, it will be some time before I can definitively find out, as I don't have the cash to upgrade anything ................. And as far as Howard Shore's score is concerned--I'm right, and everyone else is wrong. So there.

  • Aug. 18, 2002, 2:39 p.m. CST

    jollysleeves, you are not alone

    by Aquafresh

    As you can tell from the posts above, I've been arguing this point for a while. In defense of my detractors however, most have been quite civil. Lets face it, I think anyone who posts here enjoys a little debate. For me, the bottom line with the FOTR soundtrack is that you will find people who thought it could have been better. Whereas, if you talk about a score like say, Jaws, virtually NOONE could argue that that score could be improved in ANY WAY without sounding like a complete fool. I realize we're dealing with apples and oranges here, but my point is that there have been moments in cinematic history where the score to a particular film has achieved perfection that really cannot be sensibly debated. This simply is not he case for FOTR. Despite the awards it has won, many people found the score to be derivative and unremarkable.

  • I'd better put on my asbestos underwear before Miami's flame onslaught :-) (actually I own "Born in the USA" on CD).

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 12:45 a.m. CST


    by BG

    ...I'm afraid elanor is right. Even though we are each free to express our opinions and revel in the learned discourse that inevitably follows and to celebrate and rejoice in the glorious differences the Human condition has to offer, we must never lose sight that this is an AICN TB. Therefore, since your opinion is in the minority, you must be burnt at the stake like the heretic unbeliever that you are! And as the flames lick higher we shall taunt you with calls like, "You are a Baboon with questionable equipment!" and "I find traditional Irish and Gaelic music to be derivative and unremarkable!" ;-)

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 12:58 a.m. CST

    movie music

    by Bobo_Brazil

    I was listening to the London Philharmonic version of John Williams original Star Wars score the other day and I suddenly realized that the only reason this movie ever attained the status of cultural sensation was because the music provided an emotional depth this hack sci-fi serial otherwise lacked. GL's failure to move beyond the simplistic moral calculus of the first three films has utterly undone his attempt to chronicle the rise of Darth Vader. A nuanced conception of evil is obviously more than he can manage...and no musical score can make up for it.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 2:15 a.m. CST

    Continuing the "discussion"

    by Conan_the_Humble

    When engaged in a discussion, particularly when arguing so vociferously about your objectiveness, I hardly think it unreasonable to 'qualify' your reasons for a particular viewpoint. THAT is the reason I mentioned the number of DVD's I own. I was not trying to boast, I was attempting to illustrate that I have literally watched movies in the DVD format hundreds of times and believe that FOTR is the best transfer I have seen to -date. That's got nothing to do with my opinion of the movie itself, (which is well known to persons who frequent these TB's.) I am simply refering to the technical aspects of the picture, with the vividness of the colours et cetera. My previous comment was perhaps a bit hasty, and certainly doesn't reflect my namesake, however I intensly dislike those who criticise in order to make others react, which is what you seem to be doing Jollysleeve. You state earlier in your post that, "I wasn't even making a lame 2-line flame-bait post." If so then why wasn't this statement qualified, since as you state later in your post that you tried to qualify these statements? You spent the whole post mentioning your dislike of the score and then tacked onto the end of the post how "appalling" the transfer was. Your arguments are inconsistent. Still don't feel bad, I don't feel threatened by your statements, but I am interested, why did you bother posting if you didn't want people to respond? I was under the impression that the reason these TB's existed was to give 'fans' the opportunity to discuss these matters. I also as usual find the accusation of being a geek interesting. Why is that, because I post on this site occassionally? Why don't you check who posted first Jolly? You or me? Cheers.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 2:17 a.m. CST


    by Runelord


  • Aug. 19, 2002, 2:25 a.m. CST

    re: the Baboon comment

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Jolly, I don't mean to patronise you but that line about you being a Baboon, is a classic (IMHO) line from the Simpsons. I didn't mean it personally, only as a humourous (well, I thought so anyway) start of a post that was intended to demonstrate my thoughts about your post. BG Well done!!! Nice post, like it, like it. Cheers.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 3:24 a.m. CST

    The LOTR soundtrack

    by jesseo

    Is one of the few that I feel enhance the movie it is attached to. My view of a good soundtrack is one that recalls specific scenes when it is listened to sans-pictures. I guess you could call it "theme" scoring. A few examples are the scores to the original Star Wars trilogy, Crimson Tide, Gladiator, Braveheart, Terminator 2, (by the way, the T3 teaser gave me chills, and it was little more than the music), and Jaws. Shore's work on LOTR was the best I've heard in quite a while. I've never looked for his name in the credits of movies before, but I may now.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 5:50 a.m. CST

    The longest talkback post ever.

    by jollysleeve

    I realize that sometimes adding a simple "I think so" goes a long way toward softening your listeners. More flies with honey--and all that. But I don't always think of these things. And sometimes it's nice just to say what you think without having to worry about diplomacy. Perhaps this time I should've gone with the diplomacy. On the other hand, I think it's fairly obvious that all these posts are opinions. A lot of "I think so's" or "It seems to me's" might seem redundant. (And I know I'm sick of seeing that dreaded "IMHO" acronym in internet posts.). But I'll try to watch myself in the future........... .....I often don't read every post in a talkback before posting. In this case I just skimmed, and the general vibe I got, was that some people loved the music, while others thought it was merely "acceptable." So I didn't think I was bucking against the majority when I criticized the music, just adding my vote to one side. Of course, rereading the thread later, I saw that it wasn't "some people" who weren't impressed with the score, but basically one person engaged in a multiple post debate. (Ocho, you magnificent bastard, you. Preach on, brother!).......... Elanor I absolutely was not trying to be insulting, when I said that people love the score because they associate it with something else they love--the movie. (Even though it does sound rather Pavlovian.) I believe EVERYONE does this. *I* do this. I have a big "The Tick" T-shirt which I'm rather fond of, but I doubt I'd feel the same way if I'd never seen the show. My favorite tracks on soundtracks are often my favorites simply because they're from my favorite scenes in a movie. I love "Manifest Destiny" on the Ravenous soundtrack because it brings to mind the crazy, kick-ass sight of Guy Pearce rolling his eyes with his guts spilling out. Yes, I still believe that many or most fans of the Fellowship soundtrack love it because they associate it with the movie. Some soundtracks are haunting enough or "catchy" enough that they're loved by many people who've never seen, or even hated, the movie that they're from, but to my ears, the Fellowship music doesn't have that stand-alone quality. (Which, in and of itself, doesn't make it a bad score.).... .......... About the score. (I hope I don't get into much more trouble here.) Yes, Shore's choice of instruments is perfect. The vocals, folk instruments and flutes are all appropriate. And his actual arrangements of the melodies he wrote are fine too. (For an example of someone who can't arrange for an orchestra--see Randy Newman's paint-by-numbers technique---whoops, more controversy). It's the melodies themselves that I found to be lacking--as in, they weren't there. It felt like it was all ambiant music, which is fine for many scenes, but not during those instances when it was clearly the filmakers' intent that the music take over. Like the aforementioned scene when we see the Fellowship crossing the mountain in slow motion. The music swelled and--well, it just swelled. Shore could've written one of those great haunting, epic themes. I'm thinking Horner's Willow. I'm thinking Hisaishi's Mononoke. But instead of haunting, I felt it was merely non-offensive. It's often been said that a great score can make a bad movie seem good, and a good movie great. Well, I feel like the Fellowships score makes a very good movie seem very good. I find it to be an enjoyable pleasant-enough score. I might even pick it up, myself. I just don't think it's Oscar-worthy, or as good as it could've been.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 5:52 a.m. CST

    Longest post continued.

    by jollysleeve

    Conan, point taken about your DVD collection........."however I intensly dislike those who criticise in order to make others react, which is what you seem to be doing Jollysleeve"...... Well, then I guess you don't like me and we'll have to leave it at that. Although, I think it could be argued that it's the *best* criticisms that are the ones that make others react.......... "You state earlier in your post that, "I wasn't even making a lame 2-line flame-bait post." If so then why wasn't this statement qualified, since as you state later in your post that you tried to qualify these statements?"...... I would respond and defend myself, but I don't quite understand what you meant by this.......... Why did I tack on the "appalling" comment at the very end of my original post unsolicited? Well, because I believed it to be true, for one. But also, my hand to God, I could've sworn I saw someone make a similar off handed comment about the DVD transfer. I thought I was concurring. Now of course, as I go back over this thread in a desperate attempt to find this mystery poster I feel like John Nash in his rubber room, trying to find that radium implant that dissolved. I misread the thread, but who cares? No harm resulted. It's not like I falsely assigned negative comments to a specific person. It just resulted in me making an off-topic (non-score related) comment.... .......... "why did you bother posting if you didn't want people to respond".... I *do* want people to respond. I just enjoy it more when they agree with me.......... "I also as usual find the accusation of being a geek interesting. Why is that, because I post on this site occassionally?"......... Conan, we're at the AICN talkback. We've been arguing fervently about the merits of the Fellowship of Rings. We're *all* geeks here............ "Why don't you check who posted first Jolly? You or me?"............ While it's true that I posted first on this thread, my post was simply criticizing the movie, while yours criticized me directly. Surely you see the difference.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 6:14 a.m. CST

    LOTR DVD & score are...

    by sjmaatta

    ...perfect. The best looking and sounding DVD I've ever seen and certainly the best of those that I own (I do have mid-to-top-of the line Yamaha equipment, no subwoofer though - the bass is still incredible). The score (which I downloaded and then bought before the movie was out) is IMO the best aspect of the movie. Especially the moody orchestral parts where Shore is very good at using intervals which avoid the minor/major characterisation... modern classical music (think Arvo P

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 6:55 a.m. CST

    re: My incoherent thoughts

    by Conan_the_Humble

    I concur with your sentiments, Jolly, it&#39;s not that I don&#39;t like you personally, it&#39;s just that I much prefer those who agree with me... I also agree with the use of IMHO, I detest it myself, I don&#39;t really know why I used it. As to the geeks comment, you stated, "I criticize one *aspect* of a movie, and the geeks go ballistic." As I was the only &#39;geek&#39; who had responded (flamed?) at that point, please excuse me for feeling that your statement was directed at me. (I&#39;m not really paranoid you know, it&#39;s just that everyones out to get me, ahaha ahaha, ahurrr, <imagine Krusty the clown saying that last bit...>) As to the rather confused sentence of mine, in my earlier post, (I was too busy frothing at the mouth at that point...) what I actually should have said is, "If so then why wasn&#39;t this statement qualified, since as you state EARLIER in your post that you &#39;tried&#39; to qualify these statements?" There that should clear things up a bit and if it doesn&#39;t, oh well. As to the difference between critising the movie and critising you, indeed I do see the difference. I (stubbornly) still think my earlier comments are valid, as do an increasing number of other persons on this site. So there!!! Cheers.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 8:47 a.m. CST

    I&#39;m also sick of "LOL."

    by jollysleeve

    Because you know they&#39;re not. If people laughed as frequently as those letters were typed, half the population would be locked in insane asylums............. I know I&#39;m probably needlessly dragging out the torture of this thread by adding another post, but............. "If so then why wasn&#39;t this statement qualified, since as you state EARLIER in your post that you &#39;tried&#39; to qualify these statements?"....... I think I get it. You&#39;re asking why I qualified my statement about the score, and didn&#39;t qualify my statement about the DVD picture. Well, I guess since this is an article specifically about the score, I thought it would be appropriate that any comments I made about the score were elaborated. Also, as I said, in my skimming, I thought someone had already made an off-hand comment on the DVD picture, and so I was just trying to agree with him by adding a comment of my own. The fact that this other poster apparently doesn&#39;t exist-- well, that&#39;s a more troubling matter for another time............ "I (stubbornly) still think my earlier comments are valid, as do an increasing number of other persons on this site. So there!!!".............. I seriously considered responding to this by calling you a "big poopy head," hoping you&#39;d take it in the spirit of fun, but ultimately I decided that the likelihood of misinterpretation was far too high. So I&#39;ll just sign off by saying *hhummmph,* *grumble* and *bah-humbug.*

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 8:49 a.m. CST

    This discussion is far too well informed. You need a total ignor

    by Seepgood

    Et voici! I don&#39;t know much about film music. I don&#39;t know know much about music of any sort. I do know that sitting here right now I can&#39;t remember the music from FOTR. Not a note. I remember the images, the dialogue, I even remember the inspired use of sound. The music? No. And that alone makes me think that words like "great" don&#39;t really belong around that score. Do you think that anyone could watch Blade Runner or Taxi Driver or Once Upon a Time in America and not remember the music? Not have it bound up permanently with their memories of the film? Now of course everyone&#39;s going to declare that they could have hummed the whole score note-perfect after seeing the film for the very first time, but I just didn&#39;t find it terribly memorable. It certainly didn&#39;t jar, it was a good workmanlike job, it may even have been the best score on a film released that year (although FOTR is as good a demonstration as you could ask for that Oscars don&#39;t always, or even usually, go to the most deserving nominee). Nevertheless, on the basis of a highly scientific sample of one respondent I think that "mediocre", while perhaps a little harsh, is probably a more accurate description than some of the superlatives that have been flying around.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 8:56 a.m. CST

    Re: This discussion is far too well informed. You need a total i

    by jollysleeve

    Holy mother! Look! *Someone* agrees with me! Lordy lordy, we&#39;re having bisquits tonight! And I didn&#39;t even pay him........ much.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 9:54 a.m. CST

    Lawdy lawks

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Didn&#39;t this get heated.. didn&#39;t read in any depth, but I&#39;m inclined to exercise my right to free spech and agree with jollysleeves, Ocho and the ever sensible Seepgood - .. much as I loved the film, I can&#39;t recall the soundtrack, which sounded fairly okayish-generic-epic. I think I recall PJ stating in the 20 questions that he wanted a similar celtic-inspired OST to Braveheart. I also loathe "artists" who only ever release "product" in time for Christmas. Meaning Enya, who has released EXACTLY THE SAME ALBUM six times under different covers. My chanteuse of choice would have been Lisa Gerrard, or even Eithne Brennan&#39;s big sister Maire.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Watford Town Hall??

    by flipme

    You&#39;ve got to be kidding? I live here and have been to the Town Hall many times. It&#39;s just a big room with a stage at the front. You&#39;re telling me that this is the place with the best accoustics in Fair old Blighty? They do a 70&#39;s disco here every weekend for Crikes sake!!!

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 11:41 a.m. CST

    I feel a lot of love in this room

    by Pallando Blue

    What a great read. I&#39;ll throw my pointy hat in with them&#39;s that love the hell out of the FOTR score (you know, the people here who are RIGHT >snort<) but the quality of the debate&#39;s certainly appreciated. In My Hubristic Opinion (IMHO), more than any other creative/performing art music is the one least able to be judged empirically. From film soundtracks to the Old Masters to pop zydeco, beauty resides in the ear of the behearer, and every set of ears is different. [Myself, I&#39;m almost positive I&#39;ve been steadily going deaf since I first discovered my brothers Stones LPs when I was 13 (To quote "Let It Bleed"s original liner notes, "THIS ALBUM SHOULD BE PLAYED LOUD") so my own musical opinion&#39;s suspect no matter what.] ...But saying so&#39;s pretty obvious and moot, isn&#39;t it? Because music&#39;s also the most fun to argue over, because everyone WITH a working set of ears DOES have a valid opinion (two words that&#39;re almost always a redundancy). The lone yuckapuck who firmly believes "the Spin Doctors totally out-rocked that way-overrated Beatles oldie shit" is, sadly enough, just as "right" as the other people who routinely jump down his throat whenever he dares to say so, because it works that way for her/him. Er, just exaggerating to make a humorous point! Not saying you Shore non-lovers are a bunch of Spin Doctor fans--but hey, you never know, obviously your musical taste is questionable at best ;~). (L)icking (O)ff-white (L)inoleum! *** To finally give Runelord some peace of mind, "TATOW" is a leftover of Tailends ages past. Long associated with, and copyrighted to, Skyway Moaters (who doesn&#39;t come around nearly enough anymore), who loves few things more than to fly into a rabid rage at the trolls and, hell, other people with whom he vehemently disagreed with. TATOW stands for "The Acid Tongue Of Westernesse"(c), I believe so dubbed by morGoth once upon a time, and Messr. Moaters set a new standard for creative, imaginative, picturesque swearing in his vitriolic rants. Heck, I&#39;ve still got a few scars and scorchmarks myself (you think I wear heavy robes in this heat cause it&#39;s comfortable?) but twas all in the spirit of loving the Good Professor T. Skyway&#39;s a good sort, just that, a-hoy-hoy, you think morG&#39;s got a short fuse, hee hee HEEEE..! If you&#39;d care to formally meet the ol&#39; conexshuns (sp?) man himself one usually needs but to say the T-word to summon him. "So the other day I was flipping through my copies of THE TRILOGY..." *** One last kindly-meant word: jollysleeve, that may be YOUR longest post ever, but it sure ain&#39;t THE longest post ever. Believe me, I know of what I speak in this matter! :) Rinsing Out The Fondue, Lathering My Alpaca Over!!!111

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 11:59 a.m. CST


    by The MasterBaiter


  • Aug. 19, 2002, 2:48 p.m. CST

    Elanor, Eloquent as Always

    by daughter of time

    Loved your comments about the score... and nice to hear you&#39;re a fellow walker, though I do most of mine in urban settings (since, alas, my days in Scotland). And speaking of music and the Witch&#39;s Guards, does it detract one whit from the magnificent background score for "The Wizard of Oz" (I&#39;m not referring to the songs) to discover how much of it is taken from classical sources? I think the "oreos" are original, but I could be wrong. *** I personally think the Oscar that was given to Horner for "Titanic" should have been given to him for "Braveheart," which truly IS a magnificent score and richly deserved it, much more so (in my opinion) than "Titanic." Then again, I&#39;ve never gotten over "The Mission" losing for Best Score the year it was nominated. Now, there was a score you never forgot, once you heard it. But I don&#39;t think "remembering after one hearing" is the acid test. Not too many people could hum more than the first few notes of Beethoven&#39;s Fifth after one hearing. Does that mean it lacks greatness? ***Having watched FOTR again over the weekend, and, believe me, CLOSELY listened to the score, I stand with the majority: Shore&#39;s work is brilliant!

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 3:11 p.m. CST

    not posting in anger here

    by Aquafresh

    Elanor, I think you need to reread my posts. You seem to imply that I was not trying to keep this debate civil, and in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. The only time I showed any venom was when Nordling came out of nowhere & insulted me. The fact is, you will find numerous supporters of my opinion on this thread, so I cant be that big of a dickwad. I feel that I deserve a wee bit of credit for helping to make this one of the liveliest LOTR talkbacks in months, as well as one that managed to be pretty well thought out on the whole.(I&#39;m speaking about everyone here. Yes, morGoth even you. My comments sure stick in your craw, don&#39;t they?) Oh, morGoth, I think you know damn well what I mean by derivative. I mean that moments from the soundtrack are aping Braveheart & Titanic, ie; DERIVATIVE. But whatever, I&#39;m sure that style of humor really cracks them up at the Renfair. Just a little kidding around here, folks. Anyway, to put an end to one thread of the debate, I will concede that I am not as objective as I think I am when it comes to film scores. See? I gave an inch. So please don&#39;t imply that I&#39;m not magnanimous.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 3:13 p.m. CST

    Let&#39;s be careful, folx

    by Pallando Blue

    ...Like Moaters and the T word, much more slagging on Titanic and we can expect to provoke a yard-long post by a certain Titanic-loving dufus... ;) *** Oh man, The Mission. Thanks for jogging that D.O.T., been far too long since I&#39;ve watched that film. What a visual and aural feast. *** The Wizard of Oz&#39;s Oh-ee-ohs? Hm, could have sworn Shore was sampling The Time&#39;s "Jungle Love" Oh-ee-oh-ee-oh&#39;s. You sure?

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 4:04 p.m. CST

    Can anyone define "derivative"?

    by daughter of time

    Because it does seem to me that it&#39;s a phrase that gets used far too much, by people who are too literate to say "ripped off." Could it just be that the work of any artist tends to resemble his other work - that he or she has, in fact, a "style" which makes us prefer one artist over another? Would you go up to Renoir and say, "Gee, all those girls in bathtubs are starting to look alike," or tell Van Gogh, "You know, you really ripped off your sunflower painting when you did those irises..."? And how much more difficult for a film composer, when he was presumably not only hired for his style, but must also match his style to the images on screen. It seems to me that Williams&#39; work is instantly recognizable (far too much so for my taste, these days; you should hear his early, delicate "Jane Eyre"), as is Horner&#39;s, as was the immortal Miklos Rosza&#39;s... which says nothing in itself about the quality of their work or its appropriateness for any given movie. Mozart freely and cheerfully used the same musical phrases in multiple works. And this doesn&#39;t even take into account that any composer or other artist stands on the shoulders of all the masters that came before him.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 5:19 p.m. CST

    2. derivative adj (ca. 1530)

    by Pallando Blue

    1: formed by derivation 2: made up of or marked by derived elements -- de-riv-a-tive-ly adj -- de-riv-a-tive-ness n ...Thank you, Merriam and Webster! That oughta clear EVERYTHING up. *** "Jane Eyre"?!? Oh PLEASE, that score is SO made up of or marked by derived elements! For my money, John Williams hasn&#39;t written anything new since "Daddy-O" ;~)

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 5:55 p.m. CST

    And in the begining, ...

    by BG the very dawn of time, the Universe was created. And all the creatures which dwealt whithin stared in astonished wonder at the incredible beauty of creation... except Ocho, who thought it was derivative ;-)

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 9:02 p.m. CST

    Elanor, I don&#39;t need schoolin&#39; mama I ain&#39;t foolin&#

    by Aquafresh

    Sung to the tune of "Whole Lotta Love". I&#39;m going to assume that you are all familiar with Led Zeppelin, as they reference Tolkien in "Ramble On". First off, I&#39;m probably not as young as you are assuming, as I am rapidly approaching my Christ year. Secondly, I don&#39;t believe any of you for ONE SECOND when you tell me you don&#39;t know what parts of the FOTR score I find derivative! I&#39;d be willing to bet my left arm that you know DAMN WELL what I am talking about, you just want to pick my argument apart by focusing on the minutuae. I don&#39;t own any of the three soundtracks in question, so I can&#39;t point to specific tracks. But i&#39;ll tell you this much; the "Hobbit" theme (which yes, features a flute, but thats not neccesarily why I find it derivative) sounds like the love theme to Titanic, and sounds like many passages from the Braveheart soundtrack. I am not such a musical genius that I can rattle off the exact chord structures or melodies, all that I know is that when I saw FOTR for the first time and heard that theme I immediately thought "Titanic". Now, OF COURSE this is because both composers where referencing Celtic scales, melodies and instumentations. But the fact is, that in context of major big budget motion picture soundtracks, they sound eerily familiar. In addition to that, these scores came out within five years of each other. Now say what you will, but you will NEVER convince me that Howard Shore was not aware of these scores when he was writing the music for FOTR. PJ himself even requested a "Braveheart" like score from the get go! (So if it makes you feel better, blame him.) This, my friends is the very definition of DERIVATIVE in my mind. Please don&#39;t ask me to clarify this any further. In closing, its been nice chatting with y&#39;all, but my mind is made up on this point. I&#39;m glad you love the score, but i&#39;ll be spending my money on the "Signs" CD. Thank you and goodnight.

  • Aug. 19, 2002, 10:09 p.m. CST

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

    by FireAndRain

    Salaam, all. I loved the LOTR soundtrack, so de gustibus est non disputandum to all you nay-sayers. That gothic music that cranked up whenever we saw the Nazgul? Right on the money. And while we&#39;re talking about The Wizard of Oz, the guards aren&#39;t chanting "oo-ee-oo, e-oooooo-ah," it&#39;s actually "all we owe, we owe her." Seriously. Give it another listen. I&#39;ve seen FotR on VHS only so far, so I&#39;ll stay well outside firing range of the DVD transfer debate. I know it&#39;s blasphemy in here, but like many others I&#39;m holding out for the 4-disc Super Happy Family Wish Edition. Frothing pestilence to your enemies...FireAndRain

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 12:02 a.m. CST

    Ocho : "I&#39;m glad you love the score, but i&#39;ll be spendin

    by IAmLegolas

    It took that quote for me to pop in here! Uh... wasn&#39;t that score "derivative" of Bernard Herrman&#39;s work ala PSYCHO (with a touch of Williams&#39;s JAWS) because that is all I was thinking of when the beginning credits were on screen. Anyway, in the beginning, I wanted the LOTR sdtk to be like Basil Poledouris&#39;s CONAN THE BARBARIAN crossed with James Horner&#39;s BRAVEHEART and that&#39;s basically what it is, in a nutshell, and then some. So many great parts, they just get better over time whether you are watching the movie or listening to the sdtk on CD. Mad props for having the chick from The Cocteau Twins doing the ethereal vox on "A Lament For Gandalf." Now if they can get Lorenna McKennitt to be involved some how in one of the next 2. THE LORD OF THE RINGS : THE TWO TOWERS it&#39;s music will school you all! ALL I SAY! HA ha HA HA!!! *blasts his LOTR sdtk on his way back from Toys R Us*

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 2:59 a.m. CST

    more patronising

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Jolly, I included several (attempted at least) humorous portions in my last post, the &#39;so there&#39; part obviously was meant to be funny. If you&#39;re walking off grumbling then I&#39;m afraid I&#39;ll have to claim the victory. In this battle of wits BWAHAHAHAHAHA... ( although I&#39;m usually accused of being unarmed in these...) Anyway I don&#39;t intend to continue that discussion, I&#39;ve said my piece. What does everyone (anyone?) think of the new Gif? I think it bears a passing resemblance to Denethor, no? (except for the palantir.) Cheers.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 5:17 a.m. CST

    Re: more patronising + another Oscar-worthiness "test"

    by jollysleeve

    Conan, I realized the "So there" part was a reference to the "so there" in my earler post. My response was supposed to be humorous as well, but I guess I didn&#39;t quite achieve that. The *grumbles* were in reference to the fact that more people agree with your point of view than mine--a bothersome fact that is very grumble-worthy indeed. So, until we meet again (i.e. the next idiotic talkback.), I bid you farewell ........................... Elanor, I greatly appreciate your compliment (and the free round). Thank you ........................ .............................I figure I haven&#39;t given people enough reason to stone me, so here&#39;s something else I thought of regarding the score. Some of the score&#39;s detractors have suggested that the score is in no way memorable, and they have a point. (I&#39;ve seen portions of the movie several times now, and I couldn&#39;t recall a bar of it.) But the score&#39;s supporters have said that memorability is not necessarily the requirement of a good score, and they have a point too....... .......What about this? *Indispensability* ..........Examples: "Jaws" "Gattaca" "Ravenous" After watching those movies it&#39;s pretty much impossible for the viewer to imagine the movie with different music. You walk away from those movies thinking that no other themes, no other tempos, no other musical decisions could&#39;ve served the movie any better than what was already on that screen........ ..........It&#39;s similar to acting/casting. When you&#39;ve seen perfect casting, you can&#39;t imagine anyone else having done the role. I can&#39;t imagine anyone but Christopher Lloyd and Michael J. Fox as Doc Brown and Marty McFly.......... Steering this toward LOTR-- After seeing the movie, I can&#39;t imagine anyone other than Elijah Wood being cast as Frodo. Same goes with Viggo, McKellan and Blanchett......... However, I *can* imagine a LOTR movie in which they recast Liv Tyler. (Not that she was bad--just not that great.) And I can also easily imagine the music being replaced with any number of alternatives--each one serving the movie equally as well as the current score, if not better. I can even imagine Shore himself writing a more effective score than he did...... ........As it is, the music isn&#39;t bad, but the highest compliments I can seem to muster for it are words like "serviceable," "gets the job done," or "doesn&#39;t clash with the subject matter of the movie." These are phrases which aren&#39;t exactly on par with "indispensable."

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 5:20 a.m. CST

    That Godzilla soundtrack really ripped off Kashmir!

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Oh wait, I see Jimmy Page... by the way, I&#39;d like to go on record here as revealing my age as six years, eleven months and 30 days. Tomorrow I am seven. Beat that, oldsters. Anyway, my opinion on soundtracks is usually formed when they play it on Radio 4 as I drive home from my brutally old-school kickboxing class. LOTR OST sounds fine in and out of context, it just didn&#39;t move me as much as say, Michael Nyman&#39;s score for The Piano, and the Conan score just blows me away. Purely difference in tastes, but there it is. Anyway you can shoot me in the head with a 56-lb composite recurve for missing Elizabeth Frazer&#39;s vocal, I.Legsie. Now if only they&#39;d brought in the Mediaeval Baebes as Aragorn&#39;s personal chorus, rather like Sir Robin&#39;s bards in The Holy Grail (or not...)

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 5:40 a.m. CST

    At the risk of starting the &#39;war&#39; up again

    by Conan_the_Humble

    I didn&#39;t actually notice that you had stated &#39;so there&#39;. It wasn&#39;t meant to be sarcastic, I meant it in a humorous and conciliatory way, although upon reflection (and a closer read of the earlier posts) I can certainly see how it might appear to be sarcastic. Anyhoo, I look foward to the next controversial TB topic, I&#39;m clenching and flexing my typing fingers (2) already. Cheers.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 5:57 a.m. CST

    Hey, do you remember those Rohirrim accent debates?

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Read [p] as Norse/OE character "thorn", and [d] as that d-shaped other "th" sound.> - - - Meanehwael, baccat meaddehaele, monstaer lurccen; --- Fulle few too many drincce, hie luccen for fyht. --- [D]en Hreorfneorht[d]hwr, sone of Hrwaerow[p]heororthwl, --- AEscen aewful jeork to steop outsyd. --- [P]hud! Bashe! Crasch! Beoom! [D]e bigge gye --- Eallum his bon brak, byt his nose offe; --- Wicced Godsylla waeld on his asse. --- Monstaer moppe fleot wy[p] eallum menne in haelle. --- Beowulf in bacceroome fonecall bemaccen waes; --- Hearen sond of ruccus saed, "Hwaet [d]e helle?" --- Graben sheold strang and switch-blaed scharp --- Sond feorth to fyht [d]e grimlic foe. --- "Me," Godsylla saed, "mac [d]e minsemeate." --- Heoro cwyc geten heold wy[p] faemed half-nelson --- Ond flyng him lyc frisbe bac to fen. --- Beowulf belly up to meaddehaele bar, --- Saed, "Ne foe beaten mie faersom cung-fu." --- Eorderen cocca colha yce-coeld, [d]e reol [p]yng.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 7:09 a.m. CST

    So, I see everyone&#39;s been having tons of fun while I&#39;m a

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Chalk me up to one who likes the score a lot. I have it on my RealJukebox at work which is constantly set on shuffle all tracks, and every so often I will be surprised by "The Ring Goes South" (which I think is gorgeous) "The Prophecy", and "The Breaking of the Fellowship". I think the music is lovely, entirely memorable, and couldn&#39;t imagine the film without it. In addition, anyone that gets Elizabeth Fraser to sing for them earns eleventy jillion cool points in my book. Cocteau Twins as the music of Lothlorien. Awesome. Somebody was paying attention. Oh well, back to the grind...

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 7:23 a.m. CST

    Nice Work SP

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Good to see those plugs in there...

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 7:35 a.m. CST


    by MrBabbage

    I set up a DVD studio and know quite a bit of the technical "ins and outs" of DVD production. I&#39;m not surprised that some people have issues with artifacting on the LOTR DVD. A quick look at the disc shows that the entire movie is crammed into 6.5Gb. Just to give you a point of reference, most two hour movies occupy the same amount of space on a DVD as LOTR does in its nigh-on 3 hour form. Therefore it&#39;s not surprising that you&#39;re seeing visual deficiencies in the picture.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 8:28 a.m. CST

    Re: LOTR DVD picture

    by jollysleeve

    Augh! Where were you two days ago when I really needed you? Oh well, back to the cave.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 10:05 a.m. CST

    Ah, no, sadly not bjarki,

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    it was sent to me by a friend who got it as a random quote from somewhere. I was put in mind of it by #1 Troll, and also by furburger&#39;s lovely Ciceronian prose. I&#39;m more fluent in middle English than old. ** Thank you MrBabbage, for giving me even more reason to wait for the special edition.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 1:31 p.m. CST

    Shared observation for all who did not like score:

    by Tinuviel70

    Everyone gets chance to share his or her opinions here. This IS public forum, however. This means anybody can have opinion challenged, argued, agreed with, belittled or praised. Just expressing opinion doesn

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 2:48 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    You may, of course, count me firmly among those who can no longer imagine any other score for FOTR. Nor can I imagine any one other than Elijah Wood as Frodo. In fact, it was when I first heard that he had been cast that I thought this movie might stand a chance.... Now, it&#39;s hard to remember there was ever a time when I didn&#39;t visualize Frodo exactly that way. I can imagine other actors as Gandalf, though none of them could have been as perfect as Ian MacKellan (including Sean Connery, who is very engaging, and I adored him as the Raisuli, but at this late date he is simply too... Sean Connery). I CANNOT imagine anyone else as Frodo. Nor do I want to. The more I watch his performance, the more I think it was as deserving of an Oscar nomination as MacKellan&#39;s, but I have not lost heart that he will be rewarded as he deserves to be after TTT and ROTK. And Sean Astin with him.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 3:18 p.m. CST

    Forgot to mention...

    by daughter of time

    ... I just got back from the dentist this morning, and the dental technician said her boyfriend had been having fits during the Oscars each time FOTR lost in a category, and, of course, cheering each time it won. They both wanted it to win Best Picture and thought it was robbed. My dentist hung his head and said he has yet to see it, but he had the grace to admit this is very wrong of him and he hopes to redeem himself shortly.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Elanor, to call you condescending would be an understatement.

    by Aquafresh

    Lets get this straight, Elanor. I do not know you. Other than the fact that you are a 49 year old Tolkien fan who likes long walks and spending time on the web, I know nothing about you. SO WHY THE FUCK SHOULD I ASSUME YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LED ZEPPELIN? Just because you were of age to enjoy the albums on thier initial release? Guess what. So was my mom. She also is a Tolkien fan. AND SHE CANT NAME A SINGLE ZEPPELIN SONG. The fact of the matter is, I said that I DID asume you were familiar with them. But instead of thinking it through, you had to be reactionary and insulting of my intelligence. You know Elanor, if you are so interested in "helping" poor stupid people like me, you might want to be a little less condescending. From the moment you have shown up on this thread, you have been telling me that I could learn something from the likes of you and your internet "friends". What exactly is that? How to speak elvish? Sorry sister, thats not going to cut it. Now, you all may be people with many great accomplishments under your belts, but I cant assume that fact just &#39;cause you love hobbits and Howard Shore! You are GUILTY of the very crime you accuse me of, which is not backing up anything you say. Maybe I could learn something from you. But until you show me something concrete, I have no reason to listen to a WORD of your advice. Do you understand? And as for IamLegolas, tell me, how EXACTLY is the "Signs" score similar to "Jaws"? Is it the same key? Same chords? Same progression? Just because it has violins, that makes it similar to "Psycho"? If you have been following this thread, you would know that these geek tactics are what I&#39;ve been up against from the beginning. So see? I have LEARNED something after all.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 4:18 p.m. CST

    Ocho, for what it&#39;s worth...

    by daughter of time

    ... I don&#39;t know a thing about Led Zeppelin. No doubt it was all around me in college, but I was busy playing my collection of soundstracks and tuning in to classical music on NPR. So you are quite right that there is no automatic connection between being part of a generation, the music one listens to, and LOTR. ***And Elanor, I know what you mean about being life being accompanied by certain soundtracks. When I was kicking around the Orkney Islands, I frequently heard the "home" theme from "Lawrence of Arabia" (not the main theme) playing in my head. But then, I decided it was appropriate, because the liner notes said it was about "man&#39;s ever-present longing for his native land," and I&#39;ve always felt more native to Scotland than America, even if I was born in Cedar Rapids. (Yes I was. Really.)

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 5:18 p.m. CST

    Oh look! morGoth comes to the aid of his lady faire!

    by Aquafresh

    Was I talking to you? Look pal, I already conceded to one of your points, let Elanor fight her own battles. I could go back and re read all your posts and point out contradictions if I wanted to, but frankly, I have better things to do. The fact of the matter is that if someone had been as insulting YOU the way I have been insulted by you and Elanor, I&#39;m sure you woudn&#39;t stand for it. SO GET OFF MY BACK! And spare me the religious metaphors, I don&#39;t subscribe to your faith.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    A Religious Metaphor? And I missed it?

    by daughter of time

    Where, where? Ocho, you are getting paranoid. Lots of secular figures have their words chiseled in granite (if that&#39;s what you meant).

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 5:58 p.m. CST

    DOT- Moses, ten commandments

    by Aquafresh

    Thats what I&#39;m assuming morGoth&#39;s comments were referencing. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. For the record, you are the only one involved in this exchange (including myself) that has been any where near impartial. Don&#39;t think that it went unnoticed.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 7:07 p.m. CST

    The Case for Metaphor

    by daughter of time

    Ocho, of course my last posting was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as I can certainly see why you might have leaped to the Mt. Sinai interpretation, just as I think some of the apparent abuse and condescension was intended humorously, but can see why the ruffled feathers. However, I don&#39;t think religious metaphors should be banned, unless they are abusive of one&#39;s religion (or lack thereof). Such is the stuff of Western civilization, after all, for good or ill, and I&#39;ll take any metaphor I can get, Western or secular, provided I can make sense of it. Case in point: the sometimes over-analysis on the Art of the Ring site comes up with a great religious metaphor from time to time, and I personally love the suggestion that Frodo and Sam, in that last shot of them gazing across Emyn Muil toward Mount Doom, combine the attributes of Christ as perfect Master and perfect Servant. (You can play around with the stop-motion button and contrast the light in Frodo&#39;s eyes with the earthy devotion in Sam&#39;s, though you don&#39;t need the freeze-frame to pick up on that, as it is so beautifully shot and acted.) My point, really, is that anything any of us can suggest to deepen the experience for others here is (usually) warmly welcomed.

  • Aug. 20, 2002, 8:32 p.m. CST

    Nagging worries

    by daughter of time

    Bjarki, this looks like a good time to address your earlier post. I swear, one of these days I will stay away from this until my desk is clean... so if you don&#39;t hear from me, I am either 1) actually working, or 2) someone has finally caught on to how I spend my days, and I have no job. And any thoughts I had of getting my very own Dell were obliterated by my dentist today, who tells me I&#39;m in great shape - except for an old crown that needs replacing as soon as I can scrape together the $765.... Sigh. But moving on to "The Two Towers"... I think my biggest fear for both the next two movies is that at some point Frodo will go all CGI (like Galadriel, or even Bilbo) which I might accept at the very point he claims you-know-what for his own (if anyone needs a SPOILER warning by now, you are on the wrong talk-back), but I am very much against it until then (and even then... his voice should be strong and clear, NOT distorted!). I am particularly worried about the scene in the tower with Sam. It should be more than enough for Frodo to simply lash out at Sam with real loathing, just when Sam has... well, you all know the set-up. If PJ turns Frodo into some kind of CGI troll at that moment, I will be VERY upset. There may be subtle things that can be done... but I emphasize subtle. I guess one of the reasons I&#39;m worried is that everyone seems to just love the BBC radio version, and I really loathed it (give or take the music and Merry and Pippin&#39;s nice voices). I simply could not stand Ian Holm&#39;s sniveling, whining Frodo (as contrasted with his wonderful and touching Bilbo) and that scene in particular just went over the top. (I wasn&#39;t very crazy about Robert Stephens&#39;Aragorn, either, even though I have very much enjoyed Robert Stephens on the London stage - but that nasal twit Aragorn!) But back to the film(s)... I do wonder to whom Galadriel is addressing her "the quest will claim his life" remark. She already had the most unnecessary tooth-grating line in FOTR ("even the smallest person..."), so I hope she&#39;s not standing around in Lorien, monitoring Frodo&#39;s progress in the Mirror (which theoretically can&#39;t be used that way) making sententious remarks. Why is she even in TTT we wonders, yes we wonders? Bjarki, you seem to hint (maybe you&#39;ve read something I haven&#39;t, or else I just missed it) that the Rivendell gang moves south for the duration... bringing shards of Narsil, I presume. *** Well, I must go, and this is probably a bad post to leave, when I&#39;m trying not to get drawn in tomorrow!

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 5:27 a.m. CST


    by Conan_the_Humble

    Bjarki, interesting thoughts there, to show off a bit, Morgoth actually means, "Black foe of the world." Pretty damning stuff eh? I too have the same concerns as those mentioned above. If that polls still running, MorGy, count my vote as positive for the score if my little war of words with Jolly, didn&#39;t already indicate this. I think Ocho you are taking these discussions far too seriously, as made abundantly clear by others it is a discussion about a movie score. I don&#39;t see any real value or interest in personal attacks. I admit that I haven&#39;t read all the posts in great detail, but your vitriol towards the &#39;exquisite Elanor&#39; seems a bit uncalled for old chap. Perhaps if a person sharing a different opinion to yours, causes you such heartache, perhaps you should have a lie down, take some deep breaths, and realise that perhaps this matter isn&#39;t quite so important as it first seems? You certainly don&#39;t need to swear at her. Cheers.

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 5:47 a.m. CST

    2 quickies

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    morGoth, I just scanned back - how can you slate Darby O&#39;Gill and the little people? It&#39;s one of the finest films of all time, you wrongheaded poltroon! See Sean sing, see Sean dance! Also, lets be clear about this - Which one is going to get the hundred dollar bill first? the man-hating dyke, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny or the objective opinion? Answer: The man-hating dyke. Why? Because the other three are figments of your fucking imagination! There&#39;s no such thing as an objective opinion, least of all on an AICN talkback. Crystal?

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 5:59 a.m. CST

    just to clarify

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    the second point was not aimed at you, morGy, but at Ocho, who started off okay but has been getting more and more pompous as time goes on. And that&#39;s my opinion.

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 11:37 a.m. CST

    "Except elfkiller -- he&#39;s just a turd."

    by Pallando Blue

    Oh, but he&#39;s OUR little turd! Heh heh, anyone else read Harry&#39;s "500,00th Talk Back" article? I wonder if he IS at all aware of the TE-ers? I mean, we have really done far more than our share to pump that number up the past few years! Should we go over and crow a little? Of course, there&#39;s quantity of posts, and there&#39;s quantity of long-winded verbiage. :) [aw heck, elanor, I&#39;m 500 words long just gettin&#39; out of the pool! ;) And I figure HOME&#39;ll keep me occupied and distracted while boycotting T2T early reviews here, like last year... So, some leftover lost board in November, probably?] *** Heya, a quick Rambling On before crawling back under the workload, i.e., D.O.T. I feel your pain. Now here&#39;s hoping I can remember any of what I just read over two coffees. *** The Great Score Debate--nope, not touchin that one anymore with a 20-foot battlelance. But on a a coimpletely tangential side note, it still baffles me why anyone would want actual Led Zeppelin tubes IN the movies, which people still sometimes crop up about. Good Gravy how intrusive and out of place that would be! Maybe someday it would be fun to cut together a video for Ramble On or Battle of Evermore USING LOTR film clips, but keep the score unplugged, please. Yep, that position statement right there was obvious and apropos of nothing currently discussed, thank you very much. But someone has to take the tough, controversial stances. >ahem< *** SpacePerv, that Beowulf parody had me choking. Is there ANY more of that? Wassail, in Mazers of Mead! *** I agree completely about the No Nuclear Frodo (now THAT would make for an interesting placard to pace with before the White House). But I&#39;m pretty confident that won&#39;t happen. One, way back at the 2-script-version reviews (tho everyone has long since pointed out that there&#39;s virtually NOTHING left from that script), the one consistent comment was that the Sam & Frodo storyline was flawless and true to the book. Of course that doesn&#39;t mean pyrotechnics couldn&#39;t have been written in since... and I only thought of this here while I&#39;m typing, but perhaps there&#39;ll be a brief physical transformation like Bilbo&#39;s Lunge (hoping NOT)... but I&#39;m pretty confident PJ will keep it grounded, if only because he&#39;s repeatedly said he wants that storyline to be more psychological, which I take to mean less "magical." If&#39;n ya get me. Second, and more encouraging, is waaay back when, when everyone was freaking over The Cannes Footage. (Ah such heady days... Go back and read Harry&#39;s and especially Moriarty&#39;s reviews of the Cannes Reel--brings it all back) The very last shot of that reel WAS Frodo claiming the Ring--one hell of a spoiler for the virgins, JAYzus!--and all anyone remarked on was how stunned they were to see that look on Wood&#39;s face and the tone of his voice. Er, not in any "enhanced" manner, but the quality of Wood&#39;s pure performance. (Can&#39;t remember, did anyone here actually get to see that reel?) So I&#39;m bettin that&#39;s what we get. Chalk up Galadriel&#39;s Hulk-Out to being one helluva Elf. *** bjarki&#39;s list, now. Er, what I can now recall of it... Anduril--I&#39;ve never had a problem with that being saved for ROTK. Of the major shifts of PJ&#39;s translation, I like that one a bunch actually. The manner of its delivery, however, of that I&#39;m wary. Gollum--his 20-second close-up in Moria is one of my favorite moments of the FOTR DVD, if only for sheer jaw-drop effect. It&#39;s hard to remind myself that that IS a digital creature. And the frames of animation we&#39;ve seen in the T2T preview... if they get throughout the movie the same level of detail to texture and expression that&#39;s exhibited in Moria, Holy Cow. It won&#39;t take long for the audience to stop having to willfully suspend disbelief--they&#39;ll just be watching this bizarre new Character. (I HOPE--cause elanor&#39;s right, too.) As for Serkis&#39; voice, morG, I haven&#39;t had one problem with understanding it--perhaps it&#39;s blasphemy but for me he&#39;s been giving Peter Woodthorpe a run for his money. Ents? elanor&#39;s Gollum point is even more right in their case. I think that&#39;s the front we&#39;re all really holding our breath about. Such a tricky balancing act necessary there I&#39;m afraid to even discuss it for fear of jinxing anything. Trust Weta, Trust Weta, Trust Richard Taylor, Trust Richard Taylor, Trust Lee & Howe, Trust Lee & Howe.... Saruman on a spit: I am from here until I see this flick gonna hold out that that has been SCRAPPED. Either corrected with this year&#39;s reshoots or even during the continuing rewrites over the principle photography. And ROTK will be getting as much or more (it&#39;s been speculatively reported) reshoot work NEXT year... Perhaps still no Scouring (Hobbiton&#39;s been dismantled for, what, 2 years now?) but still, maybe, some better resolution for Saruman and Wormtongue than Rotisserie Maia With a Side of Grima (fresh, still squirming!). Again, like the Ents, on the matter of the wizard spike I prefer not to know til I KNOW. :) So til then, tra la la la, in the happy place, la la laaa... Ah hell. Just to throw some gas on THAT fire, over at Leo&#39;s board he or someone mentioned months ago that in the script they had access to, Legolas shoots Saruman off the balcony! Or maybe he said Grima? Either way, it sounded like such utter horseshit (and not Leo&#39;s previously proven source) I never brought it up. Actually, it&#39;s been a long long time since Leo&#39;s posted ANY new info dumps from his source. Oooooh, it makes me wonder....

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 11:45 a.m. CST

    "Led Zeppelin tubes"

    by Pallando Blue

    Obbiouzee I hab a code id by doze. Ban, deze dummer codes are de BURST.

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 12:10 p.m. CST

    Quick One Before Work

    by daughter of time

    Good input on death/Death/the void.... Well, yes, I had picked up that certain elves were going to Lorien, but somehow missed that the ENTIRE Rivendell contingent was decamping south. I suppose, dramatically, it opens up a lot more possibilities for dialogue, but I&#39;m still a little uncomfortable about everyone knowing too much what everyone else is doing and sitting up nights discussing it... such as, particularly, Frodo&#39;s fate. If they are somehow monitoring his progress, then what becomes of the Mouth of Sauron&#39;s "revelation" at the Black Gate? If there&#39;s anything to compare with the last sentence in TTT for sheer cliff-hanging horror, that is it. Much of the heroism of the whole story involves people risking their all, not knowing whether any back-up will ever materialize or whether their friends have already lost, and I would hate to see that muted. But then again, I do think that all involved know what they are doing... so I am not losing sleep over this. Yet. *** Thrilling report about the Frodo spoiler at Cannes! I had NOT heard of it, partly because that was before I had thrown caution to the winds at work. Speaking of which, I am going to try to stay away for a few hours....

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 1:56 p.m. CST

    "rid your mind of Ralph Bakshi&#39;s Treestump abomination! I ac

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I think, Black Foe of the World, this goes some way towards explaining why you have trouble hearing the Ring go "thud" when Bilbo drops it. Might be time to get a new VCR, dude. Firstly - I guess I&#39;m in the minority here, cos I think the Ents look good. I think their hands in particular look suitably Entish, the sort of hands that freeze onto rock and just break through it. And remember, that&#39;s a toy picture. I never had strong thoughts on the Ents appearance (like a lot of people - I guess the imagination just sort of refuses the jump when it comes to Ents) though I am a huge Gollum fan. I also think Serkis&#39; voice is overproduced and not terribly natural sounding, but I don&#39;t think that&#39;s Serkis&#39; fault particularly, but a sound production thing. Gollum may be warped and twisted, but he is basically a hobbit. THAT said, he does sound a bit more natural in the TTT trailer, but only a little. I also think Wormtongue is made up too much. And I also have to say Nie Danke to Nuclear!Frodo. No WAY did some lucky bastard see the whole Mount Doom denouement thing. I hate them, whoever they are, and wish death and darkness upon them. Okay, death and darkness is a little strong. I wish hay fever and boils upon their bottoms upon them. And oh, oh, oh! I wrote something into TORN about a question in the Green Books and Anwyn wrote back and said she&#39;s going to update it at some point. So I feel full of tenuous celebrity right now. Regarding the nomadic Elves of Rivendell, I&#39;m kind of over it by now, since I am still fretting over where the movie will end. Incidentally, there are some stills up at, but I haven&#39;t checked them all out yet. Nice one of Eomer.

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 1:58 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I do so command!!! I did a big post and it got lost and I HATE it when that happens!

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 3:19 p.m. CST

    Photos at Empire! Go Look!

    by daughter of time

    Yes, yes, yes... I really did mean to stay away, and it looked like no one was posting, anyway, and then I realized it was just HOSED AGAIN, and that was after I had just come back from seeing ALL NEW PICTURES over on the TORN link to Empire, which you must all drop everything and go see. NOW! Finally, a full-length (well, hobbit-length) shot of Frodo and Sam, captured.... (Now for giddy female rant:) They got the white shirt thing right! I mean, the fact that it is just essential that at the moment when any hero is captured, he must be wearing a romantic white shirt, open at the collar, with nice full sleeves...preferably a vest... and, of course, the cloak thrown back is always a good touch. And it&#39;s ALL THERE! PJ has clearly been watching the right old movies.... (The rest of the photos are really cool, too.) I just found the LAST Empire on the stands this weekend (the one with Gandalf in white on the cover), and it&#39;s going to be a long, long wait stalking the newsstands for this one.

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 4:04 p.m. CST

    TTT trepidation

    by Seepgood

    It seems to me that there are two kinds of changes that get made in the course of an adaptation: the ones that are driven by the requirements of the new form into which the work is being adapted and the ones that occur because the adaptor thinks he can tell the story better than the person who originally created. The former sort are fair enough, and in the case of LOTR would include axing the Bombadil episode, turning retrospective exposition into direct narrative, the great uruk-hai dust-up and (arguably) the Arwen business. Even the, er, (trying to think of an alternative to "wizard-kebob" (incidentally, why "kebob" and not "kebab"), um, skewerunir? istarbecue? sarumallow?) Saruman-killing-off-business could be fitted into this category: there&#39;s a case to be made that the Scouring would, in a fundamental way, work less well on film than in print. If that case is accepted, Saruman can&#39;t get out of Isengard alive, so some way has to be found to kill him off. The other, gratuitous sort of change would include delaying the appearance of Anduril, evacuating Rivendell, Elvish battalions at Helm&#39;s Deep and so forth. These are a much more dodgy affair, since they go beyond interpretation into rewriting. We saw refreshingly little of that in FOTR (uruk-hai pods aside, grrr) and it would be a great shame if that were to change in the remaining films. As for leaving Shelob for ROTK, well, I&#39;m not too keen on it, because I think the "Choices of Master Samwise" cliff-hanger would be a perfect ending to the second film - the end of "Fellowship" needed extra dramatic oomph, the second volume doesn&#39;t have that problem. On the other hand, there are other ways it could be ended well: for instance, you do the whole "messenger of Mordor!" bit with everyone dashing off and then cut to Frodo and Sam above Morgul Vale, seeing the signal go up and then watching the army march out, unit after unit, column after column, on and on, driving home the point that if you thought Helm&#39;s Deep was big you ain&#39;t seen nothing yet, and ending the film with a really forceful contrast between the scale of the armed might of Sauron and that of the Ringbearer&#39;s quest against it. That would work. The important thing is *why* the division of the story is being adjusted in this way. If it&#39;s to give due space to the earlier part of the quest story and the development of Gollum, and because, with much of the end of the book chopped out, there&#39;s more room to spare in the third film, fine. If it&#39;s a case of everything else being squeezed up for the sake of the Helm&#39;s Deep show-piece, not so good. But I think the latter possibility is unlikely.

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Good Points, Seepgood

    by daughter of time

    I thought you really hit the nail on the head regarding necessary and unnecessary adaptation and indeed, specific instances of it. I&#39;m not sure whether PJ&#39;s changes to the Breaking of the Fellowship count as unnecessary, and yet, for me, they improved it immensely, removing the mildly annoying hobbit hysteria and substituting hobbit heroism, not to mention providing some real emotional closure (the Frodo/Aragorn scene was a heart-wrenching little gem). If Jackson&#39;s other changes come up to this level, I will have no problem, necessary or otherwise.

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 7:59 p.m. CST

    Hoglir? Vanyar of the falling ears?

    by Runelord


  • Aug. 21, 2002, 8:12 p.m. CST

    DOT!!! Bring out the white shirt! Sing it, sister!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I couldn&#39;t agree more! It is SO important to remember to put the captured hero is the distressed looking white shirt! So many film-makers forget to do this, turning their noses up at the symbolism of the purity of thin white material, with hopefully a button or two at the top undone exposing an inch or two of vulnerable skin, and it really does make all of the difference! Then again, I&#39;m an exotic dancer in a nightclub existing beyond the Door of Night, so that&#39;s the kind of thing I might be expected to say. But still!

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 8:13 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

  • Aug. 21, 2002, 8:18 p.m. CST

    I vote we stay here...

    by daughter of time

    ...and avoid the riff-raff. *** Had another chance to go over those Empire photos, a few of which I missed the first time. My enthusiasm reduces me to complete incoherence. All those shots of Men Behaving Sublimely, noble women in flowing dresses (and a couple of obligatory orcs).... Love Legolas. Love Aragorn and Theoden reviewing the troops! Love Faramir. But most of all, love Frodo and Sam, and the amazing colors and composition in that photo, the steel blues and greys, the shiny pots and tweedy cloaks... the white shirt. FOUR MORE MONTHS! I guess these infrequent images are like lembas: a little nibble keeps you going for days. But with a three-hour-plus movie, surely just a bit more wouldn&#39;t spoil our appetites?

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 8:34 a.m. CST

    "It&#39;s A Riddle..." or, Where Will This Post End Up?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Those pics are awesome, actually. Faramir is hot. Actually there is major hotness factor all round. Must be the whole Freudian Guys-With-ENORMOUS-Swords thing.

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 10:30 a.m. CST

    Spooky telepathy moment

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Ingold, I was just thinking of that Samuel L. Jackson line last night in relation to this TB, and here I see you beat me to it. Anyway, yes, Alice, I also think that Freddy Kruger/Swamp Thing ent look might be okay if you allow for the screen to plastic toy conversion factor. Just look at how realistic He-Man was compared to his bendy toys ( wait, I mean...). *** That Harry Potter TB looks like it might stoke up to a 3 topic flame if I&#39;m lucky. Maybe if I go and mention LOTR I can provoke elfkiller and Pud into joining in. Anyway thanks, elanor, but I should come clean and admit I was fibbing about my birthday. *** That Beowulf quote: after some research, it&#39;s apparently by Tom Weller, in a book called "Culture Made Stupid", or possibly "Cvltvre Made Stupid".

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Whilin&#39; away down Memory Lane

    by Pallando Blue

    Here&#39;s Mo&#39;s review of the Cannes Reel, from almost exactly one year ago. Well, forgot to copy the url, but it&#39;s #10098, and he links to a few other folx&#39; looks at the stuff. Great read; even though he misquotes sometimes (like I&#39;d be able to retain dialogue after that screening) it&#39;s some of Mori&#39;s best scribbling. Even after countless viewings of FOTR, it gave me the same anticipatory chills and sweats I was going through this time last year. Yes, Alice, you may wish them all bottom boils. What&#39;ll really get the blood bloiling is when they get to the T2T and ROTK quick-cuts. Mo especially is moved by two poignant Frodo and Sam scenes. Holy crap, how the hell am I gonna make it til December. And then a whole &#39;NOTHER year? >shudder< *** Hm, SpacePerv, grazie, I&#39;ll maybe hunt that up!

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Alice, Still Here?

    by daughter of time

    Spotted you over on the Harry Potter talkback, but what is Harry Potter to rhapsodizing together about the white shirt? And especially when we know the throat is not only exposed and vulnerable, but will soon come up against the point of Faramir&#39;s dagger in another delicious moment. And since PJ seems to have grasped white-shirt-coolness, do you suppose he will manage to get Faramir into one, say, when he is lying around being all wounded and delirious? I am definitely prepared to have my withers wrung when they bring him in on a stretcher.... Damn, that is SIXTEEN MONTHS away!

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 12:56 p.m. CST

    Where is 10098?

    by daughter of time

    Pallando, I am only semi-computer literate. Please talk me through how to find these wonders...or at least quote extensively. Though it may be perilous, if it renders me completely unable to function on the job.

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 1:11 p.m. CST

    The Joy of a White Shirt...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Oh, hell yeah sugah... the dagger point at the throat, just kind of touching the skin beneath. Perhaps captured person could swallow, nervously yet defiantly, whilst meeting captor stare for stare. They ought to. It goes with the White Shirt like peanut butter goes with jelly. Actually, LOTR is littered with potential White Shirt moments, and I would certainly be at home for Extended (Scenes) Faramir swooning away in ROTK. Actually, while we&#39;re doing the whole "liquid fangirl" thang, those pics of Aragorn slouching moodily through Helm&#39;s Deep in dark clothing and full of grim purpose also hit the spot. Ah. Yes. Hmm... (Dissolves into puddle of eostrogen). I did mean to tell you that I thought your line about "the Perfect Master and the Perfect Servant" was uber-cool, by the way. That&#39;s kind of how I think of them. When not reflecting on Frodo&#39;s white shirt, anyhoo. Anyway, SpacePerv sir, people seem happier with the Ents on other sites. But I think TailEnders are a little harder to please, myself. Nearly as bad as Usenet, and *that&#39;s* saying something. (Blinks) There&#39;s so many TBs going on that I&#39;m lost... who am I supposed to be fighting now? I&#39;ve forgotten.

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 1:21 p.m. CST

    ...and the Joys of Moody Darkness

    by daughter of time

    That is, of course, the sexy flip side of white-shirted vulnerability... the cool edginess of the prowling panther, essentially alone: dark, deadly, graceful.... (Melts into puddle.)

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Though of course you realise...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    That we have to be careful. If our posts fall below a certain level of testosterone-injected vitriol, the TB Police will call around our respective homes at four in the morning and cart us off for "Behaviour Modification". But before that evil hour, I&#39;d just like to say how wholly I&#39;m in agreement about Sexy Prowling Panther-type Lost Kings of Middle Earth. It&#39;s what makes the Geek Life worth living. Especially when you work in IT.

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 1:42 p.m. CST

    A-h-h-h-e-e-HEM!! ...>ahem< Hey GUYS, that Miranda Otto&#39;s a

    by Pallando Blue

    Good lord, ladies, you were gettin ME worked up in a light sweat! Haveta undo a couple buttons of this white shirt, here, ta cool off... *** Pardon me D.O.T., I&#39;ll clarify. If you look at the url window of your browser up there, you&#39;ll see this is TB number "13012"--since you&#39;re reading this, there&#39;ll be a "#" and other numbers after 13012, that being the number of whatever TB post you clicked on. So, if you hit Back, go to the full article, the url ends in 13012. Now, in the url window up there, backspace over 13012 erasing it, and type 10098. Hit return, and time travel! Works for the TB # Runelord shared (that one&#39;s way before MY time!) too.

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 1:49 p.m. CST

    So, tell us Pallando...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    How do you look slouching moodily about in black with a sword? Think you could go there? Think maybe you could come round to our places and do a bit of moody slouching before reclaiming the throne of Gondor? Cos, I promise I would make it worth your while... If you don&#39;t fancy that much, do you know someone else that might be up for it? Somebody deadly and rugged looking and yet noble and kingly and hot and good with a blade (so to speak?)? No? Goddammit. Well I&#39;ll keep trying. It&#39;s *got* to work eventually, it&#39;s the law of averages...

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 2 p.m. CST

    Thanks, Pallambo!

    by daughter of time

    Though it is just TOO HARD to concentrate after even a few sentences of Frodo and Sam at Mt. Doom.

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 5:21 p.m. CST

    Ingold, You Misunderstand Us, Sir

    by daughter of time

    We do not fall for the hackneyed cliches of the romance novel, let alone their silly covers. I abhor such. No, these are the very ARCHETYPES of male heroism that all of that cheap rubbish tries pitifully to emulate, just as Tolkien&#39;s women are archetypes of beauty and nobility. Fabio, HA!

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 7:20 p.m. CST

    The Dangers of Swooning

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    (Rubs bumped head fretfully) DoT, I saw your email to me today, you posted on the 10th but I rarely check this email account since it&#39;s such a spam graveyard - anyway, thanks! Ingold, if I want to swoon I damn well will swoon and you won&#39;t stop me (though you could try catching me, I don&#39;t think my head will take another knock like the last one) and what material to swoon over! PJ is, indeed, God. And God favours Geek Chicks, clearly. Okay ladies, since we&#39;re nearly all here - what do you reckon is A) the most swoonsome moment of FOTR (the movie) and B) What do you have high hopes of being the most swoonsome moment of all three?

  • Aug. 22, 2002, 8:11 p.m. CST

    A&#39; Swooning We Will Go

    by daughter of time

    Hmm, Alice, that is one difficult question, there being so many kinds of swooning, and in this case, so many moments where the physical, intellectual and emotional/spiritual just melt into one endless out-of-body experience. Some of the swooningest moments have nothing to do with sex (well, NOTHING in LOTR has anything to do with sex, come to that) but just the idea that anybody could be that perfect for the moment, look that gorgeous on camera, move that gracefully, etc. So in that sense, I damn near swoon over any moment involving Frodo by firelight, giving (as the one reviewer said) new meaning to the term "beautiful youth" in all his lovely courage and innocence, not to mention his face at the end, lit with that other-worldly light.... And Legolas displaying elvish grief - the look on his face immediately post-Moria, and again when he comes upon Aragorn with the dying Boromir. Wow, is he beautiful, with that little cat-like tilt to his head... Aragorn on the bridge with Arwen, just welling up with feeling.... Definitely a swoony moment. But even though he&#39;s poetry in motion in battle, his peak moment HAS to be that slow, lazy walk toward the orcs after he has left Frodo.... (Shiver of delight.) As for the future movies, white shirt moments aside, and my decades-long love of Faramir, the swooningest moments are likely to be anything to do with Frodo and Sam... and NOT because I see any homoerotic undercurrent, but just because that much love between two people is so incredibly moving, and watching them go through absolute hell together.... OK, where do swooningest moments become all-out sobbing melt-down moments?

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 12:34 a.m. CST

    And ...

    by BG

    ...don&#39;t forget the way Aragorn&#39;s eyes smoulder whenever he looks towards the camera with that oh so sexy expression on his ... um ... face .... um ... why is everyone looking at me like that? ;-)

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 3:01 a.m. CST


    by Runelord

    Nice post elanor! I think you covered everything so I

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 3:05 a.m. CST

    Pointers for free!

    by Runelord

    Pay attention fellas, this is a rare opportunity. Points to Pallando and morGoth for catching on early. ;-) Fear not, BG! If you can objectively keep this line of thought you can use it to your advantage. You

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 7:12 a.m. CST

    poor old Sean Bean

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    doesn&#39;t even get a mention from you ladies, and yet not so long ago he was Mr Period Drama sex god cos of Sharpe and Lady Chatterley&#39;s love. Mind you the beard doesn&#39;t help and he was a bit too busy acting his socks off in a minimum-swoonage role. He didn&#39;t even get much of a chance to show off his fighting skillz, and I seem to recall he specialised in screen and stage fighting at RADA. But if you want to see why he had the housewives of Britain weak at the knees, check out a few episodes of Sharpe, which was very big on white shirts. *** Miranda Otto recently appeared in BBC&#39;s The Way We Live Now as the jilted but proud Mrs Hurtle, and I still don&#39;t understand why that idiot Montague threw her over for that ditzy porcelain doll airhead, Hetta. Anyway Miranda will rule in that part, trust me.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 7:29 a.m. CST


    by Buck Teeth Soh

    that&#39;s Lady Chatterley&#39;s Lover...

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 9:40 a.m. CST

    And the swoonage rolls on...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I&#39;ll give love and swoonage to Boromir. Poor tragic Boromir. Sigh. I am aware of Bean&#39;s work in Sharpe, very nice. Pretty much all of the main notes have been hit already - the one where Aragorn stalks in slow motion towards the Uruk-Hai being a shining moment. Though no-one has mentioned the shot of Frodo staring off down the road, and the leaves blowing up - that look of concentration. Also all of the hobbits meeting Galadriel, the expression in their eyes. I expect to be in a state of more or less continual swoonage during the whole Choices of Master Samwise affair. I am thinking of investing in an oxygen tank to bring into the theatre with me.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Curse this rugged deadly life of quiet mystery!

    by Pallando Blue

    [criminy, can&#39;t believe I left the ladies hangin&#39; like that!] The worst part is the outfit. But the loose dark cloak cast about my shoulders and these tight, black breeches are the only option when you have a sword of this length and girth swinging around your legs. It&#39;s all I can do to keep from slouching moodily by the firelight here, and after a long afternoon slaughtering bad things even the slouch can&#39;t erase this knotted brow and the shadow it casts over my square, stubbled jaw. Oop--dammit, now I&#39;ve gone and spilled baby oil all over my pectorals! So now I&#39;ll have to, let&#39;s see, open this white shirt down to the second washboard... Ah you&#39;re home, my dove. There&#39;s wine chilled in the bucket there. Take the glass with you into that hot bubbled giant bathtub I&#39;ve just drawn, and I&#39;ll come join you after you&#39;re good and relaxed. I can&#39;t wait to get my hair washed. [more, my dears? ;^D ]

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 11:47 a.m. CST

    (That&#39;s a, um, figurative shadow)

    by Pallando Blue

    (I hope nobody was momentarily grossed out by my grotesque, shelf-like, moonlight-eclipsing brow. Curse this rugged deadly life of unfortunate phrasing!) *** morG, I certainly was uh_Clem, but that ol&#39; TB was before HIS time. I think I merely lurked until well into principle photography had begun... Yes indeed, new Firesign! And thanks for the NPR tip! *** Miami (had a chance to play the CD yet?), I did come through the other end of that weekend, but barely. At least I didn&#39;t ruin the hotel after-party, like apparently one other fellow who decided to paint the walls and ceiling organically, if you get me, around 3 a.m. *** Man, I&#39;m just doing EVERYthing I can to squelch the swoonage at this point, aren&#39;t I? Sorry, girls! That is to say, I&#39;m so very, very sorry. I... I don&#39;t know what to say, ladies... or do... except [bring the camera in real tight, please] bore deep into your eyes with mine... even as they threaten to unembarrassedly well over with emotion... and plead, in my deep gravelly whisper, "My love(s), forgive me..." ...What the--? Hey! Now where the hell did THIS baby oil come from? This makes NO sense, but now it&#39;s all over my broad shoulders and wide, strong back, and trickling down to the hollows of my narrow waist. Sigh. Welp, back in the tub.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 12:47 p.m. CST

    So, was it this that sparked the current discussion?

    by Pallando Blue

    TORN had the link a few days ago, cracked me up then: /archives/001367.html [space after frodo] ...Now then, off to rool up my sleeves and untuck this shirt so it will billow about me as I bathe my tall horse in the moonlit meadow.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Swooning at my desk

    by daughter of time

    Elanor, you managed to hit just about all of them, though we could perhaps break it into subcategories, such as particular swaths of Aragorn&#39;s sword/torch at Weathertop, or any moment when Frodo appears to be hurt or dying (I am just SO happy they milked his anguish over apparent skewering by the troll for all it was worth, though I WOULD have appreciated a little more solicitude on the road for his poor bruised internal organs - and oh boy, didn&#39;t you just love the way Aragorn crawled to him and turned him over...) and especially any moment when he gasps, "Oh, Sam!" (Alice, I will need to share your oxygen for the Choices of Master Samwise). And that moment when the leaves blow up - that&#39;s actually my sister&#39;s favorite Frodo moment. I have been meaning to mention this for some time, though not precisely a swoon-worthy moment: in a lifetime of seeing people scream "NO!!!!" in movies, I have never seen or heard it done better than by Frodo as Gandalf falls. EVERY SINGLE TIME (and you all know that&#39;s been a lot of times) it goes straight to my heart and innards and gives them a little twist. And goodness, let us not forget Boromir... though I do think we are getting away from swooning moments to just great cool moments, of which he has a fair number. (Actually, I think what we are proving is that the entire movie is just one big swoon, give or take orcs and wizard slap-downs.) How about that moment when he comes running to Merry and Pippin&#39;s defense, his draperies swirling, or his pure adorableness teaching them fencing? And he got more and more points the more I watched it and noticed how really protective he is of them all, a manly shoulder squeeze here, a quick hug there, not to mention his famous plea to "Give them a moment!" after carrying Frodo out of Moria (and how swoon-worthy was THAT?). Actually, I&#39;ve always thought Sean Bean was deeply attractive, and regret we haven&#39;t seen his "Lady Chatterly" in this country. I began reading Sharpe a decade or so ago, and thought he was perfectly cast in the role.("Hornblower" also gets votes for white-shirted manliness.) But I degress.... Anyway, I could hardly breathe after reading all the posts this morning, and wanting to run home and revisit every swoony moment, and knowing we have at least six more hours to come. (Yes! to Faramir and Eowyn on the battlements, hair streaming in the breeze....) *** Runelord, nix the chest oiling (very Fabio-ish), and slouching may ONLY be done with pantherish grace, as generally, a graceful and confident carriage wins almost as many points with me as an attractive speaking voice... two traits sadly lacking in most of my compatriots. ***Back to Aragorn, his whole speech about the Nazgul at the inn and especially "Sauron the Deceiver"... VERY swoonworthy! I hope certain trolls are not listening in, because what I most swoon over about his final scene with Frodo is that it plays like a great love scene - the intensity of the eye contact, the hand gently folding over Frodo&#39;s with the Ring, the relinquishment and "I would have died for you" and farewell...all of this NOT in any erotic context, but just pure love and respect and protectiveness. I must quit while I can still breathe and before I collapse in a heap at my terminal....

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Daddy&#39;s cotton grows so high it sucks the water table dry!

    by Shards of Narsil

    Levelland, written and recorded by James McMurtry; also recorded by Robert Earl Keen. I emerge from my lurking to claim the billion points! I grew up in Plainview (not far from Levelland geographically or appellatively - is that even a word?) Played Smoke on the Water and Joy to the World in the PHS marching band. Don&#39;t you think my user ID would make a great name for a band?

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 1:16 p.m. CST

    A billiob points?!? No WAY I&#39;ll catch that up

    by Pallando Blue

    Congratulations are owed to my better, Shards. And welcome! Hmm, not BAD for a band name, but I&#39;d sooner see a live show by, say, "Arwen&#39;s Navel." ...We ARE talking an all-girl-punk combo, no? ;) *** And just to clarify two points: by "rool" I of course meant "roll," and, while it surely goes without saying, I feel I should emphasize that the aforementioned moonlit meadow is clearly visible from the terrace outside the bedroom.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 1:17 p.m. CST

    Should also have mentioned...

    by daughter of time

    ... that I was choking back the howls of laughter reading some of the posts this morning.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 1:19 p.m. CST

    And by "billiob"

    by Pallando Blue

    I of course meant "billiub." Chrissakes.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 1:29 p.m. CST

    I&#39;ll have to ask

    by Shards of Narsil

    my 11-year old daughter about her favorite moments of swoon...she&#39;s totally smitten by young Elijah. We&#39;ve watched the movie many times at the theater and at home. During one of our viewings, she looked at me and said, "Mom, we&#39;re freaks, aren&#39;t we?" I answered, "No, dear. You should check out the Tailenders. They say things like "Gandy" and "Leggy"!"

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 2:06 p.m. CST

    Shards of Narsil

    by daughter of time

    You may tell your daughter that she has exquisite taste and that I, for one, would happily put down money for a coffee table book called "Frodo&#39;s Face." ***Alice, how could I forget the utter radiance of Frodo gazing up at Galadriel for the first time?

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 2:17 p.m. CST

    Lets Start a new Thread.

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Seeing as though Ingold mentioned it above, what does everyone think of Harry&#39;s Book? I must admit I read it VERY quickly (in less than a day actually) and didn&#39;t find it all that great a read. There were interesting bits and pieces, (mainly about Harry&#39;s life) I enjoyed, but his long rants about Hoolywood etc I didn&#39;t find too thrilling. Harry, start living more! I found the things you wrote about your personal life interesting, your sermons on Hollywood, less so. maybe because, I&#39;ve heard all that before in your reviews, no? Anyway that&#39;s my quick thoughts about this matter, and perhaps no one else will find this interesting. If so I&#39;m gonna go and sulk. Be warned! Cheers.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 2:34 p.m. CST


    by Shards of Narsil

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 2:41 p.m. CST


    by Shards of Narsil

    Tab, not enter! As I was saying, thanks for the welcomes. The more I watch the film, the more I appreciate Elijah&#39;s performance. His face at the Dimrill Dale after Gandalf&#39;s fall makes me cry every time. Can&#39;t wait to see the evolution of his Frodo. A scene that makes me swoon and giggle with delight: Aragorn watching Boromir, Merry and Pippin sword fighting. When the hobbits attack Boromir ("For the Shire!"), he laughs! Does he laugh, or even give us a big smile, in any other scene?

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 3:20 p.m. CST

    (Choked with emotion)

    by daughter of time

    Lump rising in throat... the White City... those trumpets at dawn... a little big-brotherly ruffle of Faramir&#39;s hair as they greet each other... maybe bracing for another session of withering contempt from ol&#39; Pa, after risking life and limb and gaining the adoration of their men in their hopeless battles against the foes of Gondor. Ah, but it means nothing, if you can&#39;t get where it matters most. Sob! (By the way, Shards, we welcome weepers. So glad you&#39;ve joined us!) I do love the revelation that Boromir, too, feels he can never be good enough to please the old man; that he wasn&#39;t some smug-jock bastard basking in the glow of Dad&#39;s approval, after all.... That he is, in fact, worthy to be Faramir&#39;s brother, and more like him than we knew. He IS so lovely when he laughs; I hope we get a flashback or two of larking about with Faramir, in happier days. (Oooo, I can just imagine Denathor breaking in with something cutting about how there&#39;s a job to do, and if they aren&#39;t mortally wounded, why aren&#39;t they back at their posts, making him proud....) ***Sigh, speaking of posts....

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 3:22 p.m. CST

    Meant to say

    by daughter of time

    ..."if you can&#39;t get approval where it matters most."

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    WARNING! Lengthy Swoonage! And plenty more where that came from!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Pallando! I&#39;m swooning for you! You catch on quick. By the time the sun rises on a dark dawn full of fell omens you will be up to your neck in Elven and human totty with comcommitant relationship complications, I do so foretell. I advise you to lose the baby oil. But, anyway, on with the LOTR swoonfest. Tell me if you think you&#39;ve heard enough. It won&#39;t *stop* me in any way, but it&#39;ll probably make you feel better to let your objections be known. See? I am capable of generosity. Favourite Frodo moments (in addition to all of the ones named above): when he looks at Gandalf prior to Gandy letting the fireworks off the back of the cart - when realises at the birthday party that Bilbo is talking to *him* - when he comes out of his sickroom to gaze out over Rivendell. His white-shirted "Stay away from me!" to Aragorn. The determined look of contempt combined with "Oh fuck"ness whilst Boromir is describing how he will beg for death. How he commands the others when he sees the Black Riders approaching at Weathertop. When he reappears in the cornfield to Sam... hell, the whole frigging movie while we&#39;re about it. Aragorn moments missed over: when he calls the hobbits "Gentlemen" in that slightly "Look, you&#39;re hopelessly naive idiots, but I&#39;m going to try to not treat you like that". The way he sniffs the air as they go "into the wild". The way he sucks on his pipe in the Prancing Pony. His little respectful gesture as he replaces the shard of Narsil that Boromir has dropped. His stunned disbelief when Gandalf takes his header. (That&#39;s actually my second favourite, come to think of it, just behind his Uruk-Hai scene). Favourite Legolas moment: though not a huge fan of poncy Elves, they pitched his sensitivity to good and evil just right - the lost look on his face as he listens to the lament for Gandalf (urgh! Just had a flashback to the Bakshi song that was sung! Gaah! Must concentrate... must get back in the zone... think happy thoughts, happy thoughts... ah, that&#39;s better) "I have not the heart to tell you". The way he looks like he&#39;s enjoying himself when fighting the cave troll. The whole stab-orc-in-face-with-arrow-then-shoot-second-orc-with-it deal. His smile when Aragorn says "Let&#39;s hunt some orc" and Gimli goes, "Yes!" Favourite Boromir moment: when he&#39;s describing Mordor in the council. His loathing of the whole Mordor deal is so transparent. And the sword-fighting with Merry and Pippin. Though my favourite Merry moment is when they first see Galadriel and Merry&#39;s got his mouth hanging open. Favourite Sam moment: there&#39;s a billion of them, but the hawklike look he has when he sees that Frodo is missing prior to the Fellowship breaking always gets an "Awww..." out of me. I could go on to describe more but I think the guys are probably feeling a little clammy right now, and I&#39;m so gooey that I&#39;m having trouble holding enough solid form to actually type at my keyboard anymore.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 5:49 p.m. CST

    Some Freeze-Frame Moments

    by daughter of time

    Walked home and treated myself to a few scenes during lunch(from Lorien through Aragorn facing the orcs).... Good moments for hitting the freeze-frame button: 1) Frodo&#39;s face during his initial confrontation with Boromir ("It would sound like wisdom but for the warning of my heart") and, most especially, 2) Aragorn&#39;s face right over he has folded Frodo&#39;s hand over the Ring. Wow.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 5:59 p.m. CST

    White (Ecru?) Bed Shirt Moment

    by daughter of time

    ... and then there&#39;s Frodo barely able to hoist himself up on his elbows and looking so peakedly at Gandalf... and Sam running in.... (I did want him to stroke his hand, though.) The elves did fit him out nicely, with the little French knots on his bedgown and all.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 6:54 p.m. CST

    Hey, Guys!

    by daughter of time

    We do deeply, deeply appreciate your patience in letting us vent. It has just been pent up for so long, you know. And besides, I think we may just have covered every possible frame of the movie that makes the female heart beat faster. You may now emerge.

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 8:25 p.m. CST

    You May Now Emerge, Guys

    by daughter of time

    And as I said in my earlier (but hosed far up the line) posting, we really do appreciate your not only putting up with all this, but getting into the spirit. This should pay off for you big time whenever you want to spend a day or two discussing all the cool beheadings.... Wait! That was another very satisfying Aragorn moment, wasn&#39;t it?

  • Aug. 23, 2002, 9:14 p.m. CST

    I&#39;ve been lurking too long...

    by Xyzan

    and now there is so much i want to respond to. thanks to everyone for making me laugh. i&#39;ve had to keep it quite but fits of giggling histerics are always helped by serbet. Anyway, staying strictly on topic first. i absolutly loved the score, and while i&#39;ve been having problems with many versions of the story, (i cant stand the radio version, and couldnt watch all of the baskhi cartoon) i&#39;ve decided i love the films. I agree with all the swoon suggestions, but have to add when frodo first enters bag end after bilbo leaves. its a white shirt moment that hasnt been mentioned! Also, i think i will just collapse into sobbing during the coices scene in TTT! So i apologise in advance to anyone in the same thearter as me!!! Also slightly off topic, if you liked the soundtrack for instrumental and choral purposes (thinking mainly of Aniron at this point)then i recommend any of the Adiemus albums, but especially the Eternal Knot which is celtic inspired. anyway, off to be now!

  • Aug. 24, 2002, 2:43 p.m. CST

    Are you sane?

    by jd04

    If you think the LotR soundtrack isn&#39;t topnotch, I have to question how sane you are O_o

  • Aug. 24, 2002, 3:59 p.m. CST

    After reading this TB again...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I&#39;ve decided that the thing that would hit the spot is to make some popcorn and watch this puppy ONE MORE TIME! Yay! And no, am I not sane, but yes, I think the soundtrack is top notch. Thanks for asking. You must have hunted out this TB cos it&#39;s fallen off the main page.

  • Aug. 25, 2002, 2:14 p.m. CST

    A warm welcome, Xyzan!

    by daughter of time

    Glad to hear from you! I lurked for several months myself before coming forward, so a double welcome from me! Yes, Frodo entering Bag End was a very white-shirt moment, not to mention a stroke of genius: the way the camera focuses on Gandalf sunk in thought, smoking away, oblivious to the fact that the REAL fatal moment is going on behind him. You want him to NOTICE! But again, the white shirt adds that touch of vulnerability (sigh). *** And come to think of it, Frodo coming in to Bag End in the dark, when Gandalf returns... framed in the doorway (as the Art of the Ring site points out) as if he&#39;s already in the Eye of Sauron. Well, I am borrowing a friend&#39;s computer for this, so must close. See you Monday!

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 12:12 p.m. CST

    BBC Radio Version

    by daughter of time

    Xyzan, I&#39;m glad to hear there&#39;s at least ONE other person who really hated the radio version. After reading all the five-star reviews on amazon, I almost BOUGHT the thing (shudder) but fortunately my reserve at the public library came up with it before I could break down. Actually, I&#39;d been avoiding it for years because Ian Holm was just about the LAST person I could imagine as Frodo (his having in my mind made rather a specialty of groveling types), and he definitely exceeded my worst imaginings by sounding (when he wasn&#39;t doing that high-pitched whining and moaning and whimpering) like some aged relative snorting as he almost falls asleep on the couch. Clearly they didn&#39;t pick up on the fact that Frodo isn&#39;t supposed to have aged a day since his coming-of-age party. But I didn&#39;t have to get that far to stop taking it seriously. It began with the Nazguls&#39; ridiculous galloping about like frenzied coconuts! The Frodo and Sam bits were particularly unforgiveable. Maybe its defenders will jump in to the fray here, but I couldn&#39;t start erasing it from my brain fast enough. And now, my desk is just heaped with work to do....

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 12:13 p.m. CST

    So unfair. Poor Gimli--forever to be relegated to "best friend"

    by Pallando Blue

    Seriously, now. That poor dwarf. Do you think it can possibly be easy for him, being constantly ignored by all the swooning? Nobody DISlikes, him, of course, all of you have nothing but respect and affection for him. "Oh don&#39;t get me wrong, I LOVE Gimli! He is SUCH a great guy, really, just wonderful! ...I just, well, you know, don&#39;t think of him that way." Good grief, how galling that must be to hear how many hundreds of times! Of course the rest of the Fellowship are his companions, his best friends even. But you can&#39;t tell me there&#39;s no simmering resentment, on some level. He has a huge share of Hero Moments, as much as any other. But nope, Gimli always goes completely looked over. His purposeful stride into Rivendell! His grief-induced rage, growling "Let them come!" etc. His own one-leg-on-a-rock stance before the crebain buzz over. The only Council member daring to actively confront, and attack, the Ring: Grabbing an axe and swinging down a mighty WHACK! His wail at discovering the bodies of his kin strewn about Moria, his naked, open weeping at the Tomb of Balin. ALL his brilliant axe-work, especially at Amon Hen where he saved your pretty Aragorn&#39;s skin at least twice. His resounding "YES!" at the prospect of Hunting Orc.... But, still, he continues to go unnoticed by the Society Of Tailending Swooners (SOTS). Do you really think he doesn&#39;t see that, doesn&#39;t feel that? What kind of empty-hearted loneliness must he be constantly choking back, always keeping the brave face? Well of course he&#39;ll blow up once in a while, like when Aragorn treats him so patronizingly on the lakeshore. Geez, Strider, rub his face it in why don&#39;t you. Even then, Gimli mostly keeps his cool, keeping his temper down to a heavy grumble. He DOES have friends, and they mean him well, but as often happens when folx try to aid in such affairs, affairs just get worse. Case in point: They finally get Gimli set up on a blind date, but, unfortunately, with a gorgeous Elf Queen who, to be painfully blunt, is completely out of his league. So what happens? The predictable: She goes on and on about what a charmer he was and what a great time they had, but goes completely mum when pressed beyond that. And he comes away with a shattering mortal crush, but no hope of a second date. (That she was already seeing someone seems to have escaped everyone&#39;s attention, which could only have made the situation that much more humiliating for the poor dwarf.) And now that the whole episode is being recut into the movie, he&#39;s going to have to relive the gut-wrenching experience over and over, and know that millions of others will be watching it over and over as well. Dammit, women! Why are you so blind to this noble creature? Why can&#39;t you look past the superficialities of "traditional beauty," and see in this sturdy rock of a dwarf all the qualities of Deadly Bravery and Heart-On-His-Sleeve Sensitivity you&#39;ve been insisting is what separates these other objects of swoon from glossy Fabio book covers? I present to you the TRUE embodiment of the Tragic Romantic Figure of The Lord of the Rings: GIMLI Gloin&#39;s Son--SWOON before him! Name your Gimli Swoon Moments, you SOTS, I challenge you! Time to reassess your priorites! Give that dwarf some LOVE! Or I&#39;ll button this white shirt up to the collar for good, by crikey. And no pity-swoons, either, you know he&#39;ll justc see right through that and feel even worse. Mean it! He deserves it!

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 12:29 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    Pallando, you make a wonderful case. But, alas, you can&#39;t force love.... And it&#39;s still better to have loved and lost (Galadriel) than never to have loved at all. Given the male to female dwarf ratio, at least he has plenty of company at home.

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 1:08 p.m. CST


    by Shards of Narsil

    How true your words, but.....the heart wants what the heart wants. Personally, I want to laugh that hard every Monday morning. But back to Gimli, the damsel-deprived delver. His charms have not gone unnoticed by my daughter. Just the other night she remarked that his beard looked very soft and silky. Yes, I was frightened but tried not to show it.

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 1:44 p.m. CST

    I meant, Gimli has plenty of MALE company...

    by daughter of time

    ... given that Tolkien said that there were not all that many dwarf women, and quite a few of THEM preferred the single life, so any dwarf&#39;s odds of EVER finding romance are not good. ***Gimli does win points for grooming, though. You&#39;d think while he and Legolas are helping each other with their silky braids, someone could run a comb through Aragorn&#39;s hair. Just once. (It&#39;s a good thing he&#39;s going for dark-moody and not white shirt-vulnerable. I would hate to see his collar.)

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 3:33 p.m. CST

    I&#39;ll have to admit

    by Xyzan

    that i almost brought the damn thing. i only read the books in november, and went through a LOTR craze fro a little while. When i heard there was a radio version, i thought, "wow! that&#39;s worth a look surely!" The the BBC played it again on Radio four, so i didnt have to! That was a relief! I have to give praise where it&#39;s due, whoever voiced Bilbo was really good, likewise merry and pippin. Gandalf was quite good as well, and Gollum was acceptably spooky. But i think Ian Holm was awful as Frodo (although he played Bilbo in the film brillantly!). He didn&#39;t portray the character very sympathetically, and it just got annoying. But nothing was annoying as whoever was playing Aragorn! (or, as he was (ahem) "affectionatly" termed: "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn! See me Swash and buckle!")

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 4:04 p.m. CST

    That Radio Version

    by daughter of time

    Xyzan, I agree with everything you said. Merry and Pippin&#39;s voices were very attractive (and clearly much more of Frodo&#39;s class than the film portrays them), and I had no complaints about Gandalf or Bilbo or Gollum (other than the adaptation missing, in many cases, their best lines). But Robert Stephens was purely awful as Aragorn (and I do not mean AWE-ful). That overly-plummy, nasal, drawling accent was just so WRONG... and it&#39;s not that I have anything against Robert Stephens. In fact, I once had front row seats for his performance in "The Beaux Strategem" with Maggie Smith - a white shirt role he carried off very well. But whatever he had there, he did not carry over to Aragorn. I don&#39;t even know how to define that particular type of English accent, but it goes way beyond Shakespearean into "nobody-talks-like-that" territory - or at least, they shouldn&#39;t! Still, nothing could compare to the outrage of what was done to Frodo....

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 4:30 p.m. CST


    by Runelord

    I sent my address to your handle

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 4:33 p.m. CST

    I could tolerate Sam

    by Xyzan

    One of the only parts of the series i could bear to listen to often was Sam&#39;s Gil-Galad song. other than that, most of his scenes were a average. I think the biggest problem with Frodo was that he seemed too cynical from how he was portrayed in the books, and the idea that he&#39;s introduced to us sounding a bit drunk, (in my oppinion) discredited what sympathy we could have. Pallado, you tell me where i can find Gmli and i&#39;ll propose! I think he&#39;s at a disadvantage with the beard, but at least he could keep the side up in a bar fight!

  • Aug. 26, 2002, 5:33 p.m. CST

    FOTR Wins Poll

    by daughter of time

    Just saw the post over on TORN that the FOTR had been voted "Best Soundtrack of All Time" in a recent U.K. radio station poll. Now, while I suspect most of those voting probably have short memories due to youth and inexperience with several critical decades of great scores, it goes deserve to be on a short list with the great ones. Congratulations, Howard Shore! And I am definitely going to snatch up the "Two Towers" score the moment it appears at Sam Goody. Hang the discount; I&#39;m not waiting for the post. Besides, in case they have a choice of covers, I&#39;m going with Faramir.... Between the Extended Version, the new soundtrack, and whatever Houghton-Mifflin comes up with, I&#39;m not going to be much good to anyone in November.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 9:32 a.m. CST

    Radio play and stuff

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Well I thought it was terrific, and in some ways it scores higher than the film (WHAT! you cry). Yep, great though Fellowship was, it lost out on Tolkiens&#39;s folkish charm and the fireside storytelling feel that the radio play had in spades. Also, if you take the songs out of it, is it Tolkien any more? When you read the books, those songs are integral. The film works without them, but c&#39;mon diehard JRRT fans who read it as a kid, under the bedclothes by torchlight til 4am, don&#39;t you feel there&#39;s something missing besides the smell of old paper? I&#39;m not getting into a which is better debate, because they both have fine qualities, but I&#39;ve got to defend a great piece of work. And if you think Ian Holm sounds odd, bear in mind that he&#39;s a Brit. We all sound like that, all the time. Anyway if Sam doesn&#39;t get to sing "In western lands beneath the sun" at Cirith Ungol to raise his own spirits, I&#39;ll consider it a flaw in the film. Sorry, but there it is. As for Aragorn, until VM&#39;s performance I always thought he was an arrogant berk by time they go to the paths of the dead. Now I&#39;m looking forward to more. *** Gimli doesn&#39;t need swoonage, he has Legsie! A million slash fiction writers can&#39;t be wrong. Legsie is drawn to Gimli&#39;s gruff, stumpy charm, while the Dwarf is attracted to Legsie&#39;s smooth skin and beardless face, so soft, so unlike the stonelike complexion of the daughters of Durin... STEEL yourselves - LEGOLAS: Oh Gimli, handsome rockhewer and anklebiting bane of uruks! Let me climb among your foliage and build bird&#39;s nests in your curling cascades! GIMLI: Legolas, handsome nature boy and bow guy, how I yearn to delve beneath your soft valleys and mine the treasures from your soft hollows! etc...

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 11:07 a.m. CST

    SpacePerv is da man!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    But is it just me, or is life too short to spent imagining love scenes between Elves and Dwarves? I suppose it depends, really, on what else you would have been doing with your spare time instead. I really liked the radio play, and don&#39;t have a problem with any of the actors. Though you are on the money sir - if Sam doesn&#39;t burst into Disneyesque poignant song stylings in the tower of Cirith Ungol, the whole affair will be like a broken pencil: pointless. And before you ask, yes, I&#39;m perfectly serious. Oh, and Runelord! Got your addy! Now, who is it that needs mine?

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 11:48 a.m. CST

    Me and my imagination

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Thanks for the nod, Alice. Correctamundo, life is too short to dream up kinky lemon fanboy fiction, but I&#39;m at work in my very unglamorous job, and today has a special on losers phoning up to give me grief. Mind you, I&#39;ve just survived a Bank holiday weekend of DIY hell including but not limited to chiselling away at unwanted stonework, so I&#39;ve got dwarves on the brain.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 12:08 p.m. CST

    British Accents

    by daughter of time

    SpacePerve, you malign your countrymen if you think you all sound like Ian Holm&#39;s sniveling Frodo. It wasn&#39;t his accent I objected to (in the radio play) so much as all the snorting and whining that went with it. (Somehow, every time Frodo&#39;s been asleep, they have him wake up clearing his sinuses and smacking his lips.... Could they NOT have found another way to indicate "Frodo: waking from deep sleep"?) Forgive me, but I&#39;m a romantic where Frodo is concerned, and I really don&#39;t want the mental images that go with Ian Holm&#39;s version. ***My bet is on PJ not including "In Western Lands," simply because they haven&#39;t established hobbits as singing at every turn and the general audience might not buy it. I always thought that was the best song in the book published in 1969 or &#39;70 and used to love singing it (until I lost my upper range) - like a very defiant hymn. But then, of course, if they do use it, it will be with a different tune. It would be wonderful if they could somehow work it in. I would love to hear Frodo&#39;s voice faintly answering, and then the orc with the whip.... (Serious swoonage, here.) Since he&#39;s not going to be naked, there will have to be a (bloody) white shirt.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 12:29 p.m. CST

    Swoonage Swoops In!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    DoT: What do you mean he&#39;s not going to be naked? Are you KIDDING me? I mean, bloody hell, if Gandalf can be naked, what&#39;s the problem? At the very least he should be shirtless! I DEMAND confirmation! And M and Ms! And Chardonnay! It&#39;s been that kind of day...

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 12:31 p.m. CST

    By the Way, MAJOR Spoilers over on TORN

    by daughter of time

    At least, much of it was new to me. Comments, anyone? The one that most alarms me is all that messing about with the Mirror.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 12:38 p.m. CST

    Naked Hobbits

    by daughter of time

    Well, PJ did say at one point there would be no naked hobbits in the film. But then, maybe that&#39;s one of the parts they&#39;re going to refilm for ROTK.... Seems to me that if the filthy rags were distributed correctly, they could pull it off and still let the kids in. Though it&#39;s probably the e_k&#39;s of this world they are most worried about.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 12:50 p.m. CST

    Pervy Grumbling...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Well, I suppose... so long as he&#39;s shirtless. As much as I wouldn&#39;t want our little Elven lovebird to overexcite his greasy little self and start stalking the actors. But getting whipped through a shirt is a cop-out. (No! Them rumours about my Mum being a Uruk is all lies, and I&#39;ll squeeze the eyes out of any of you filthy dunghill maggots as says otherwise! Garn!) As is having Sam not sing. Dammit! PJ is raping my childhood! Or possibly that was somebody else.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 1:09 p.m. CST

    And in a moment, I really will start working...

    by daughter of time

    Alice, thought I should call your attention (and that of fellow swooners) to one of the aforementioned spoilers, which says that Faramir doesn&#39;t just lift the Ring with his sword, he rips Frodo&#39;s jerkin to get at it. (The negative aspect being that this doesn&#39;t sound like gentle Faramir.) But it does make a nice progression from ripped jerkin to shirt ripped OFF by foul orcs.... These images make it VERY hard to concentrate on boring job.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Mirror, Mirror

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I s&#39;pose. I guess we won&#39;t know til nearer the time. Anyhoo, regarding all the inserted Elvishness, yeah, I am nervous. Though, in all fairness, I always did wonder what the Elves contributed to the War of the Ring other than one - count him - ONE warrior and a lot of poncy types that will only give advice at swordpoint, and make a big deal out of that. I&#39;m not whaling on Galadriel and Elrond, they did their thing, but what about all the rest of the Elves in ME? Was Legolas the only guy that was handy and didn&#39;t have a hairdressers appointment that day? So I think I see what they are trying to do. I just wish they wouldn&#39;t, so much, cos Tolkien&#39;s version made sense. As a book, mind. I guess I will have to trust PJ. After all, he cut the hobbit nudity we didn&#39;t want (after the Barrow Downs - what the HELL was going on there?) so I guess we can compromise on Torech Ungol. I guess. For now.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 1:39 p.m. CST

    ***MAJOR SPOILER CLEARANCE!!*** How Do We Stay In Business With

    by Pallando Blue

    Heh heh, but before I get to all THAT-- real quick-like: Nothing seems to quiet the swooners quicker than suggesting they ponder a short, uber-hairy Open White Shirt. ;) Just looking for a new angle on the topic; like elanor pointed out earlier SOME of us were getting, um, a mite bored. :) I&#39;ve never felt sorry for Gimli; whenever he wants he can make Aragorn uncomfortable by going on and on about his date with Strider&#39;s hottie future Grandma-in-law. And while, D.O.T., I&#39;d certainly never call unrequited love & rejection "having loved and lost," The Gimster has the consolation of getting farther with G than anyone other than an Elf Lord. (Who was it in the Sil she refused a strand of her hair? Or am I misremembering something?) He can rub THAT into anyone&#39;s face at any time; plus, constantly bringing up her relation to Strider&#39;s fiance, he has a squirm-inducer on the King for LIFE. And like SpacePerve points out, any time he wants he&#39;s got that pervy dwarf-fancier Legsie hangin about to "relieve the pressures of the day" with no more suggestion on Gimli&#39;s part than a wink and a jerk of the head to the bushes. *** BBC Radio: I think the SCRIPT is one of the best adaptations I&#39;ve come across. Performances: Woodthorpe DEFINED Gollum. Phenomenal. Gandalf, too many pregnant pauses, but otherwise excellent. Frodo, enjoyed Holm&#39;s quite a bit, myself. The waking-snorting never registered too bad for me, and I like his transition/arc from beginning to end. A lot of tough, actorly changes through there, which I think are a lot harder to bring about without any visual cues for the audience. Last chapter, beautiful. But SAM, good grief he drove me up the wall, especially by the last third. Fine, nice singing voice, but put him in the slightest bit of duress and he gets so damn SQUEAKY. No other word for it. "Choices of M.S." sends the pets running under the furniture. And Strider: I only knew Stephens previously from his Pistol in Branagh&#39;s Henry V, and I thought he was incredible there. Voice-only theater work, however, I kept wanting Aragorn to spit the food out of his mouth, or swallow the gobs of saliva that were pouched in his cheeks, or SOMETHING. ...But at least I have no complaints about any major characters! ;) Again, my love for the adaptation stems largely from the incredible script that was produced from it. So many structural hurdles, as PJ knows so well. Plus, excellent use of narrator, and the sound and voice FX were top notch and brilliantly produced. I&#39;m just a large fan of pure-audio theater anyway, and so my appreciation for the BBC job is greatly influenced purely by its high production values. Although, again, in choral parts (Boromir&#39;s dream, Pellenor, Eagle at the end) the singers&#39; voices are NOT mixed well and often unintelligible. Like morG&#39;s complained about, my only major gripe about a scripting decision was Sibley&#39;s treatment of the Pellenor. Plain annoying, and a lot of lost potential. *** NOW then, here&#39;s what you really clicked here for! Turns out the reason Leo hasn&#39;t been dropping spoiler bombs in his own Grey Havens MB lately, is that he&#39;s returned to "The White Council" message board! He&#39;s been there since late July! His new thread&#39;s already 13 pages long! WARNING!!!! Potentially (if all true, but he was pretty much on the money with FOTR) PILES OF MAJOR SPOILERS THERE! Or, I should say, HERE: fthelotrmoviesitegeneraldiscussion [space after .com/ ] The thread in question is "ASK LEO RETURNS!" I blew yesterday afternoon off completely reading the whole damn thing, and he&#39;s still updating a few times a week. I won&#39;t divulge his spoilers here (even some we&#39;ve already heard about) until there&#39;s some sort of consensus that we&#39;re all spoiler whores and will gladly sop them all up, and the people with actual, unbelievable reservoirs of willpower at their disposal know not to look here. Or, are fine with us talking amongst ourselves as long as we keep spoilers out of subject lines and mark *SPOILERS* clearly in our posts. Because MAN there&#39;s some stuff in that thread! Okay, can&#39;t resist entirely. Here&#39;s one non-spoiling tease he JUST dropped: "P.S. I have received new information on a BIG issue, but I can&#39;t reveal it do to the nature of my source. :( I will just say this: everyone will be very happy come December that a major change we were worried about won&#39;t happen." After much pushing and pleading and begs for even a HINT, and any number of "No, sorry, I really can&#39;t" and "I can&#39;t think of any hints that wouldn&#39;t give it away" etc. on his part, the last thing Leo posted, in response to "Why did you mention it in the first place if you couldn&#39;t tell us what you&#39;re referring to?" was "To reassure you that something you are worrying about isn&#39;t going to happen... just let your anxiety level drop. :)" ......Was that a hint? "drop"? Hmm? Shall we indulge in some wild speculation and flirt with the idea that Saruman does NOT play Reverse Lawn Darts off the balcony? AAAHHH this kinda stuff is so much fun! *** But on a more serious note. No baby oil, huh? Well then, any requests? ;^)

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 1:57 p.m. CST

    How Weird!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I&#39;ve had some mail from someone sending me links to - was it one of you guys? I just got the header not the messages, and assumed it was some kind of mad spam. Most strange and peculiar! Anyway, you sure about that link, my moodily slouching wizardly babetoy? Cos I can&#39;t get it to work.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Count me in for spoilers

    by daughter of time

    It&#39;s not like we&#39;re dealing with a surprise/twist ending here, so the way I look at it is: any spoiler we like the idea of just adds to the delicious anticipation, and any we don&#39;t like, well, it gives us time to brace for it before we hit the theatres. Since no great book or film was ever ruined by knowing "how it turns out," and every book or film I love holds up to repeated exposure, I&#39;m not worried about knowing too much. Does knowing that the Greeks won spoil the "Iliad"? It&#39;s all in the details. (Though I&#39;d have strangled anyone who betrayed key scenes of LOTR before I&#39;d read them for myself.) On the other hand, any Tolkien novice who saw FOTR and did not immediately go out and read the series deserves no mercy from us.... *** I&#39;m willing to concede that the radio version was a considerable accomplishment and that a lot of talent went into it. It just wasn&#39;t *my* LOTR, and certainly not my version of Frodo. I like Tolkien&#39;s songs and poetry, but if I have to choose, my inner vision tilts away from the folksy toward the romantic and heroic, and for that I&#39;ll take Jackson&#39;s version, any time. However, it would be lovely if we could have a few more voice-overs like the "Ride of Eorl."

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 2:48 p.m. CST

    The Greeks WON?!?

    by Pallando Blue

    As for the link, Alice my backlit-in-soft-focus nymph-in-fluttering-wispy-nightgown up-on-the-moonlit-stone-terrace watching-my-horse-get-that-spongebath, it works FINE. Didja take the space out? The long way to get there, howsoever, would be to go to, find the White Council link down the left sidebar, got to the "General Movies Discussion" board (2nd from top) and LO there should be quite visible the "Ask Leo Returns" thread. Now then, work is on me like a conventioning geek-grrrl on Elijah and it WON&#39;T LET GO. Be back... tomorrow? GNAARR.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 3:30 p.m. CST

    I am british

    by Xyzan

    And i know what we all sound like, but i just couldnt accept some of the actors and FX. i did like the majority of the script, (apart from some of Aragorns lines, and that singing in the middle parts as a narrator took over the story). But i have to agree, if sam doesnt sing in the tower then we&#39;ll have to start smashing things! hopefully not disney, but definitly signing. Also, could someone help me with a question that would probabaly be obvious once i&#39;ve read the silmarilion (i&#39;m getting there, but theres a lot to do). If Melkor was a Valar, what was Sauron? Thanks. (And bring on the spoilers!)

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 4:15 p.m. CST

    No Naked Hobbits????

    by Xyzan

    Damn, that means the (ahem) "hobbit bondage" scene that&#39;s been playing in my head since i read the books wont be realised on film! (Sniff, gonna go hide in a corner and close my eyes!) ah well, we can dream. there was definitly potential swoonage there!

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 5:29 p.m. CST

    Alice Bursts Into Tears and Throws Up on the Lawn...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Ooh... read too many spoilers too quickly... must go and lie down... should have eaten something before I came out... ooh, feel *sick*... though am faintly pleased to see that I am not the only female pervert on the boards. Whip that Hobbit! But, to resume, as I can safely assume we are scaring the lads quite badly by now, those spoilers made my head spin. Most of all I&#39;m disappointed in the notion of a potential shift away from the Hobbits point of view to a more manly point of view. To a certain extent, I was never too fussed about all the battles and whatnot - I mean they&#39;re great and all, but I was more of a sucker for hobbit angst. Awww, poor Frodo. He goes on a perilous Quest, becomes marginalised in his own country, gets too ill to stay and has to go and live with poncy Elves, and then, when someone gets around to filming his memoirs, he&#39;s being marginalised in his own story! It&#39;s not right, it&#39;s not...

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 6:19 p.m. CST

    I&#39;ll Throw Up, Too...

    by daughter of time

    ..if Frodo is anything less than the heart of all three films. Alice, what have you read??? My head swims trying to reference the LEO RETURNS page.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 7:15 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Pallando - I did read that - I have no idea of what he&#39;s referring to. I don&#39;t know if he does mean the Wizard-kebob, as he talks earlier as though Saruman definitely dies. It&#39;s common knowledge that Arwen isn&#39;t at Helm&#39;s Deep anymore (at least amongst crazed obsessives like ourselves) but there are definitely Elves there. So what can it possibly be? Inquiring minds want to know. Elanor! Love and kudos for bearing the tokens of the Tailenders into the stronghold of the Enemy! And daring a talkback of your own too - really, posting an article on this site is asking for about 10,000 Uruk-Hai to camp on your virtual doorstep for three days. Hip hip hooray!

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 7:17 p.m. CST

    (Waves at TB-Fixing Gods) Thank you!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    May Allah pour jewels and sweetmeats upon you.

  • Aug. 27, 2002, 10:40 p.m. CST


    by Runelord

    You guys may have seen this already but I wanted to make sure. It

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 12:19 p.m. CST

    Elves and Spoilers

    by daughter of time

    Bjarki, you make some excellent points that less is more where elves are concerned, aside from the fact that (judging from the Appendix) they ought to have their hands full with their own skirmishes as the War heats up. As I alluded to in a post a while back, there is also the problem that casting elven extras from among the available super models in Wellington doesn&#39;t exactly accentuate their wisdom, immortality and attunement to nature. They merely seem like unusually thin people with good cheekbones and a very great sense of their own importance! And I do think some of the "specialness" of Elves was lost in not seeing the Elvish minstrelsy in Rivendell or suggesting the timelessness of Lorien (though I appreciate the time constraints). However, I would prefer that they serve more as inspiration to the Fellowship in their further trials than that they be rubbing elbows with them! ***Ingold, you have a point about spoilers. I was thinking in terms of major scenes and alterations, where forewarned is indeed forearmed, so that I&#39;m not (mentally)screaming "NO!" in the theatre. Small character moments I DO resent having spoiled, very much, not to mention those little shocks that are not shocks if you have already seen them in previews.

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 1:36 p.m. CST

    Want a little joy in your life?

    by daughter of time

    Pull out your DVD and freeze-frame on Frodo&#39;s face right after he shoves Sam at Rosie.

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Now I&#39;m Triple Posting

    by daughter of time

    ...Unless someone gets in ahead of me, and I wish you would, because it&#39;s very boring working with nothing fresh to read. I did ignore my duties and wander back to the Leo information. Did a fair amount of mourning contemplating the shortening of several powerful speeches, especially Faramir&#39;s not "loving the arrow for its swiftness" etc. And I will never understand anyone thinking that Frodo&#39;s journey is less interesting than all that warfare in the west.... If I could memorize entire chapters, nay, absorb them into my very soul, it would be those. I wouldn&#39;t lose a line of dialogue to Helm&#39;s Deep, and this is coming from someone whose favorite movies are about men in battle, or on the fringes of it (it&#39;s the lulls and the waiting that usually brings out the drama). Well, I&#39;m not going to get upset about it until I see how it all plays out. But it does make me want to leap ahead to ROTK to make sure Frodo and Sam get their due!

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 4:06 p.m. CST

    A brief respite from spoilers

    by Pallando Blue

    Still swamped, typing quick! *** One thing had to mention, with the raging estrogen bursting this TB&#39;s seams, anyone else note the irony that the author of the original article up there is "The Farmer&#39;s Son"? Haveta rewrite all them old Farmers&#39; Daughters jokes now... *** Speakin o which, Runelord my bedroom-eyed tousled-haired siren whose smirk is more knowing than her years should allow, the knife-point of your keen insight has ripped the pearl buttons of hypocrisy off my white brocade jerkin of self-satisfaction, exposing my baby-oil-free pectorals of backpedaling clarification. To wit, obviously I ain&#39;t BORED with this swoony stuff per se, but I sure am tasked to amuse myself in such a throbbingly turgid thread as this. This stuff&#39;s hard work! :D *** Nice one, elanor, on the JRD tip! I&#39;m curious what directions you gave him specifically, for finding these weeks after they&#39;re off the Cool News board? Cause I&#39;m pretty sure in my loquacious way I thoroughly confused the poor bugger Botes out of ever even attempting the hunt... *** Speakin of old jokes... (well, two ***&#39;s ago, but needed a segue dammit)

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 4:27 p.m. CST

    YOU&#39;RE **HOSIN** ME? YOU&#39;RE HOSIN **ME**??? YEAH? WELL

    by Pallando Blue

    A dark, panther-like Gondorian man dropped his tall white horse off to get shod. The smith couldn&#39;t do it while he waited, so the man decided to walk home, not living very far off. On the way home he stopped by the hardware store and bought a bucket and a small anvil. Then he stopped into the feedstore/livestock dealer and picked up a couple of chickens and a goose. However, he now had a problem: how to carry all his purchases home. The store owner said, "Why don&#39;t you put the anvil in the bucket, carry the bucket in one hand, put a chicken under each arm, and carry the goose in your other hand?" * "Hey thanks!" the (strong, moody) man said, and out the door he went. But just outside he was approached by a little old lady who told him she was lost. She asked, "Can you tell me how to get to 1603 Denethor Lane?" * The (rugged-yet-handsome) Gondorian said, "Well, as a matter of fact, I live at 1616 Denethor Lane. Let&#39;s take my short cut and go down this alley. We&#39;ll be there in no time." * The little old lady looked him over cautiously, then said, "I am a lonely widow without a husband to defend me. How do I know that when we get in the alley you won&#39;t hold me up against a wall, pull up my skirt, then ravish me?" * The man said, "Holy smokes, lady! I&#39;m carrying a bucket, an anvil, two chickens and a goose. How in the world could I possibly hold you up against the wall and do that?" * The lady said, "Set the goose down, cover him with the bucket, put the anvil on top of the bucket, and I&#39;ll hold the chickens."

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 5:23 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    I keep forgetting to mention how much I liked Andy Serkis slapping that fish into the rock.... And his tentative little crawl to the higher rock (toward Frodo, I presume) with fish in mouth was just as I pictured it. I agree with whoever posted it on Leo&#39;s Return: they really MUST keep in the line, "Don&#39;t want fish!"

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 5:36 p.m. CST

    Ohhh, the spoilers

    by Xyzan

    Thanks elanor for the information. i&#39;ve not been avoiding spoilers infortunatly. i couldn&#39;t see the point as my willpower isnt that strong. I wasnt as aware of the films this time last year, so that wasn&#39;t a problem. I am avoiding the book for a bit, but that&#39;s getting harder. Can anyone help with the spoilers. i read the first half of leo&#39;s post but seem to have missed the bit ****SPOILER with aragorn getting injured, as well as the mirror (unless that was later in the post) END SPOILER******. As it is, the materials all there for an x rated version. Whips, ropes and frodo. hmmmmm.

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 5:44 p.m. CST

    (Much soothed)

    by daughter of time

    The order isn&#39;t just hosed; it&#39;s sand-blasted! But I think I&#39;ve tracked down everyone. ***Elanor, of course my thinking is much like yours. I&#39;ve read descriptions of PJ and partners watching the rough footage and sobbing their little hearts out over what&#39;s happening on the slopes of Mt. Doom, not to mention all the added mind-games, so there&#39;s not much fear they won&#39;t give us all the suffering-with-Sam-for-Frodo we&#39;re hoping for.

  • Aug. 28, 2002, 11:34 p.m. CST

    In answer to your question, Miami

    by Shards of Narsil

    I would lick a hobbit&#39;s toes &#39;til he spouted purple prose***I would lick a hobbit&#39;s nose when it&#39;s battered by his foes***I&#39;m so bold as to propose to lick him anywhere he chose***But I&#39;d never ever ever lick a hobbit&#39;s hidden rose.

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 12:40 a.m. CST

    Ah, Pallando

    by Runelord

    Hallaer, my swoon-inspiring bard, my horse-loving knight in shining white shirt, you backpedal most elegantly. I mourn your brave struggle against the offensive fits over other, lesser men. As I write I am contemplating provocative poses and sinful clothing styles for your future action dolls. I do so in the heartfelt hope that your harem of crazed fangirls will keep you suitably entertained whilst your other loves ignore you so cruelly. Your magnificent words are too good for this foolish field-plough waif. I am grievously wounded

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 11:45 a.m. CST

    NON-SPOILER from "miami mofo":

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Dude, you&#39;re famous! Name up in lights and speechmarks.. not as famous as "the Exquisite Elanor", but I guess being written up by Hyperbole Harry has its advantages.

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Thank you, Miami!

    by Runelord

    You scared the

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 1:03 p.m. CST

    There is one lonely post left hanging (NT)

    by Runelord

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Tolkien&#39;s Words

    by daughter of time

    Elanor, I&#39;ve been re-reading FOTR, too (I&#39;m just a few pages from the end) and have been pleasantly surprised to find out how many of Tolkien&#39;s actual sentences WERE incorporated into the film, even if they have been given to other characters or transferred to other settings. I was very impressed at how much of Boromir&#39;s dialogue with Frodo was retained, during his attempt to take the Ring. I do hope this is a trend that continues (as seems likely given PJ and company&#39;s respect for the source). ***Spent another happy hour or so before bedtime, fast-forwarding and freeze-framing some of my images in the first half of the film (I don&#39;t ever want to dilute the last half hour this way). Ah, the clarity of those DVD images.... Will not swoon specifically, but my fellow SoTS know which I mean. Even fast-forwarding, I got tears in my eyes when Frodo stepped up at the Council - and (Ocho, the hobbit theme does WORK, here and everywhere!) when Sam and Merry and Pippin all came tumbling out to jine up. ***Alice, there must be SOME way to get you a DVD! I can&#39;t bear the thought of you unable to share these freeze-frame moments. It is too cruel.

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 1:44 p.m. CST

    Typos, Again

    by daughter of time

    ..."some of my FAVORITE images," that is. It is a wonder that last post got out at all, considering that my first draft vanished when our computer guy came around to mess with my printer settings.

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 2:35 p.m. CST


    by Shards of Narsil

    I don&#39;t know what to say about that bit of doggerel either except that I may have taken too much of my medication. Your eloquent response to Pallando was pretty darn funny. Miami is quoted in the VMA article in the Coaxial section, in case you&#39;re still wondering.

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 3:57 p.m. CST

    Hobbit toes

    by Xyzan

    Miami, after resding those bagenders, definitly always, especially if the wax their feet first. I cant stop laughting. going to find all the other storries they have on the website. "tinkletoes!"

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 6:58 p.m. CST

    The following contains SPOILERS and speculation.

    by BG

    Over on the &#39;Ask LEO&#39; spoiler board I&#39;ve noticed something interesting. At the beginning of the thread LEO replies thus, "Q:-what happens to grima in the end?A: Killed by Legolas after he cuts Saruman&#39;s throat and pushes him over the balcony.", then in the middle he says, "P.S. I have received new information on a BIG issue, but I can&#39;t reveal it do to the nature of my source. I will just say this: everyone will be very happy come December that a major change we were worried about won&#39;t happen.", then at the end he replies to a question thus, "Q:I read a rumour somewhere that Wormtongue slits Saruman&#39;s throat before pushing him off the balcony. Is this true? If so, I&#39;m surprised that he holds on to the palantir, which he is reported to have with him when he falls. A: No comment." So what we have is at the start of the thread LEO is happy to answer questions about Saruman&#39;s demise, then he says something we were worried about won&#39;t happen, and from then on says &#39;no comment&#39; to questions about Saruman&#39;s death. Hmmmmm ...

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 7:56 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    Based on the very little we&#39;ve seen, Brad Dourif may be a good choice for the role, but the make-up seems a bit over the top, maybe even more so than Saruman&#39;s pointy finger nails, which should have been sending up big red warning flares to Gandalf about his choice in confidants. Pale and stouped over is one thing; runny black eyeliner another. *SPOILERS* The various demises mentioned for S-and-W all seem lacking in something, and I cannot get truly excited about whose throat gets slit or who gets impaled first or who takes a header from the tower. Reminds me of a long-running exhibit at the Museum of Man here, "Torture Through the Ages," which especially upset a lot of newlyweds who were planning on posing for the usual pictures in the park, and found a guillotine in the background. Not what you would call auspicious for the wedding album. It has been replaced by (I think) a whole new exhibit on the Spanish Inquisition. Anyway, I miss the whole Frodo assassination-attempt thread, irony of mercy perceived as cruelty and, ultimately, the very BANALITY of Saruman&#39;s end. Which is not to say the whole audience won&#39;t stand up and cheer.

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 9:07 p.m. CST


    by BG the book Frodo does NOT kill Saruman, nor does any other Hobbit. The fact that Frodo does not kill Saruman and that he prevents any other Hobbit from doing so is what really shows his &#39;growth&#39;. Grima kills Saruman. This is why I have never had a problem with &#39;Saruman on a stick&#39;. If we accept that the SOTS must be cut from the film (for whatever reason, eg time constraints or cinematic structure) then what do you do with Saruman? If Grima kills Saruman in the book, then Grima should kill Saruman in the film. If the SOTS is out (which it is(PJ)) then how would you have PJ deal with Saruman?

  • Aug. 29, 2002, 11:32 p.m. CST


    by BG

    ...we are in agreement :-) What do the rest of you TE&#39;s think?

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 12:01 a.m. CST

    Yeah I guess

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Is there&#39;s not gonna be a SOTS then Saruman&#39;s (and Grima) have gotta be finished off in some way. But (and please understand that my final judgement will await actually seeing this movie!!!) that the complete removal of SOTS seems to be another one of those &#39;unnecessary&#39; changes. I trust PJ, but that doesn&#39;t mean he&#39;s perfect. I recall PJ talking about all his and Fran&#39;s &#39;clever&#39; ideas and the more they looked at them the more they decided to revert back to JRRT&#39;s ideas. Lets hope this continues with TTT and ROTK? Eh? Cheers.

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 7:36 a.m. CST

    Scouring The Internet...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I don&#39;t know... if no SOTS, then it doesn&#39;t really make much difference how Saruman dies, does it? Though there is something delightfully seedy about having your throat cut by a snivelling toady that turns on you. As for the absence of Scouring, I mourn it deeply. It rounds off the story. That said, you&#39;d be amazed at the number of people that disagree. I think things like SOTS are what seperate LOTR from the usual classic fantasy arc hokum, myself, which is kind of what made it famous.

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 10:36 a.m. CST


    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I remember when that stood for Saga of the Swamp Thing, or similar. Anyway I think it&#39;s been said before that the scouring is where LOTR is brought down to a "human" level (I say human because JRRT always meant hobbits to represent *us*, the ordinary people), and therefore is more emotive than the huge epic ending. The evil is on a smaller scale, but brings it home. Although LOTR is not intended as a WWI allegory, imagine if Tolkien had returned from the war to find that his own home had been invaded; possibly the thought occurred to him how terrible that would be. By removing the scouring, the film trilogy stays at the epic level of Gladiator, Star Wars, Braveheart etc - comfortably far away for most audiences. You may feel differently from your personal perspective, but I suspect that the final impact, when audiences emerge blinking into the light, will be lessened by the loss of that chapter and that&#39;s a shame. On another point, I&#39;m avoiding spoilers but if Saruman is no longer getting shish-kebabed then that&#39;s good, because the unforeseen hilarity of the Prince of Darkness getting staked one more time would damage that scene. Dracula falls on a spike in at least a couple of Hammer classics.

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 12:25 p.m. CST

    Death by the Road

    by daughter of time

    To continue the themes of banality and irony, there was real satisfaction in having Saruman - with his immense pride and ego and sense of himself as fit to reign over Middle Earth and control the destinies of all lesser beings (that is to say, everyone not Himself), his contempt for even trees that to him are only fuel for his engines - brought down NOT by a rival as the climax of some grand, apocalyptic duel in the sight of their armies, but dispatched in an instant, on a backwater road, by the most despised of his lackeys, and with only hobbits to witness it.

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 12:51 p.m. CST

    How WILL Jackson End It?

    by daughter of time

    We know the Grey Havens are in, but are 99.9% sure the Scouring is out, so how, precisely, are they going to make the transition from triumph to loss? The Mirror scene was NOT a compensation for the Scouring, since the one was "here&#39;s what happens if you fail," and the other is "here&#39;s what happened EVEN THOUGH you succeeded (and will you now have the strength to deal with it?)".

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 2:06 p.m. CST

    Deep Thoughts on a Friday

    by daughter of time

    I knew this would happen.... Everyone starts posting all kinds of profound insights and speculations, just when I have things I should be doing and not sitting here soaking in the communal wisdom. Ah, those last chapters... dealing not in some banal Triumph over Evil, but in loss and sacrifice and redemption (or failure thereof). The endless choices running through Tolkien between pride and humility, damnation and redemption, comfort and sacrifice... without these, we merely have a grand adventure; with them, a story that explores almost infinitely our place in a moral universe.

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 6:24 p.m. CST

    Bjarki, Good Post

    by daughter of time

    Though I&#39;m sure you meant "canNOT stay isolated from evil".... Without the Scouring, what comes of Galadriel&#39;s words about fighting the "long defeat," or the idea that evil is NOT something that can be destroyed once for all, even if its dark center is now gone from Middle Earth? And what of Frodo? Does he merely return home, wander about feeling sad and remote compared to all the happy hobbit normalcy (no quiet work to be done, rebuilding), rub his shoulder and wince a bit, and a few months later decide to be off? I know, 15 months away is too early to speculate... but the ending is so critical to the whole.

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 8:14 p.m. CST

    Bare Essentials

    by daughter of time

    Elanor, I think you have stripped it down to just exactly what cries out to be included. I would enlarge on this, but my day draws to an end. But do keep the conversation going.... If I get a chance, I&#39;ll plead for time on a friend&#39;s computer over the weekend (which is our Labor Day weekend, so I&#39;m out of here until Tuesday). Believe me, I will miss you all.

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 9:26 p.m. CST

    The Long Awaited Psychotic Incident

    by Runelord

    Xyzan - I forgot about the waxing! Miami, I

  • Aug. 30, 2002, 9:32 p.m. CST

    And the morals of the story are...

    by Seepgood

    Speaking of redemption, does it seem odd to anyone else that in the work of a Christian author, heavily imbued with Christian themes including the idea and the possibility of redemption, actual redemtion is conspicuous by its absence? Whenever evil characters affect to have repented, as Morgoth does at his "parole hearing", or Sauron after the War of Wrath, their "reform" turns out to be fraudulent, or at best shallow-rooted, fear-driven and short-lived. Maedhros and Maglor fail to escape the grip of their oath. Saruman, as has been observed, is offered chance after chance and turns them all down. Gollum strains poignantly towards redemption but ultimately falls short, reverting to his bad old ways. Granted, he plays a vital role in defeating evil, but he could hardly be said to derive any moral credit from it. The same can be said of Grima, Saruman&#39;s Gollum, who proves as incapable of detaching his destiny from that of Saruman as Gollum is of detaching his from that of the Ring, in spite of sharing the same yearning to escape from his corruption ("Even when he goes out at night it is only to look at the stars" - possibly the saddest words in the book). It just seems odd, and depressing, that in Tolkien&#39;s world the fallen never seem to make it back to the light. If his only infuences had been pagan myths that might not be so strange, but considering his own faith it&#39;s rather peculiar. Perhaps the only exception, and that a far from direct and literal one, is the salvation of the peoples of Beleriand through Earendil&#39;s plea for forgiveness. Even there, in true Greek tragedy fashion, Maglor and Maedhros follow their oath to the bitter end. Now, to counter all that bleakness, I think you people are severely over-egging the pudding with this loss of innocence idea. The point about the return of the Travellers is not what they have lost, but what they have gained. The renewal of the Shire after the Scouring leaves the impression not of innocence destroyed, of a land once pure and joyful irretrievably sullied, for all Saruman&#39;s vain boasts. Rather, it is an affirmation than evil need not endure, that pain and grief and ugliness need not leave an indelible contamination, that life and love and hope can overcome and joy shine out as bright, or brighter, than it did before the dark times. The Grey Havens is the final manifestation of the melancholy theme of loss and mortality, but the message of the Scouring and its aftermath is that life goes on, wounds heal, malice fails, that "they cannot conquer forever!".

  • Aug. 31, 2002, 3:13 p.m. CST


    by Xyzan

    The conversation changes so quickly now. i think i agree that the SOTS will be missed. i really liked the part merry and Frodo played in it. But they have to include the grey havens and it wont be the same to have Frodo leave without the full explanation. Another idea is will they include anything from the apendix? Having a scene with Sam as major could be interesting, but might spoil the impact. As to the aguments about redemption, one of the themes i gathered from the books was the corruption and flaws of all the characters. Tolkin didnt settle for an easily defined good versus evil story, and that shows in the fact that so many of the good characters are tempted and corrupted, but they are allowed to redeem themselves, if only in the oppinions of a few of the characters. (I&#39;ve always wondered if Frodo ever forgave Boromir because he did not see his redemption.) i think these themes help the books to remain somethig intrinsically special, and it&#39;ll be a shame if they dont translate to film.

  • Aug. 31, 2002, 9:30 p.m. CST

    Not convinced

    by Seepgood

    Bjarki - I never meant to imply that the story did not contain wounds that don&#39;t heal, at least in Middle Earth, of which Frodo&#39;s sufferings are clearly an example. The point is that the harm inflicted on the Shire is not such a wound, indeed it is quite emphatically the reverse. The fact that the hurts suffered by Frodo lead to him being unable to enjoy the renewed life of the Shire, and his consequent need to leave Middle Earth to be healed, is entirely unconnected to the Scouring. The passing away of so many fair things after the breaking of the power of the Rings is entirely unconnected to the Scouring. I&#39;m therefore a little puzzled as to why people seem to think that it&#39;s the Scouring that gives the story&#39;s end its bittersweet tinge. It is important in a number of ways, but that isn&#39;t one of them. Certainly, the theme of "Arda marred", of apparently irretrievable loss, is there at the end, but it isn&#39;t there because of the Scouring, the Scouring doesn&#39;t seriously contribute to it and it won&#39;t disappear for want of the Scouring. In fact, the Scouring and renewal of the Shire is a counterpoint to that theme, an affirmation that not all hurts are indelible and not all losses are irretrievable. Now, if the Grey Havens were to be cut, that would undermine that theme, but I believe it has been stated that they will be retained. I don&#39;t really see how incorporation into the revived kingdom indicates any change in the nature of the Shire - the Shire was a part of Arnor while it lasted, ceased to be a part of it when it fell and becomes a part of it again when it is revived. All that changes is the context surrounding the Shire, not its own character. Indeed, "recognising the borders of the Shire", and its autonomy within those borders is a confirmation of its separate status, not an abnegation of it. On redemption, I&#39;ll concede where Thorin is concerned. However, the confused and ambiguous legalistic stuff about Galadriel&#39;s exile, which to my mind never made a great deal of sense, isn&#39;t really a matter of moral redemption. Something similar could be said about the Dead Men. The absolution of Frodo and particularly of Boromir is fair enough as far as it goes, but their momentary lapses (especially Frodo&#39;s) are a world away from the long-term corruption of characters like Gollum and Grima. The book offers us potential Prodigal Sons, with the suggestion that a character can go all the way down into the darkness and then come back again, but in each specific case this potential remains unfulfilled. The opportunity to portray the triumph of good over evil in its profoundest form, the salvation of a lost soul, is therefore not taken, an ommission which I continue to find rather odd.

  • Sept. 1, 2002, 12:16 a.m. CST

    Understanding Galadriel 101.

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Galadriel was a High Noldor of the House of Finarfin. (Actually Finarfin and Earwen&#39;s daughter.) I believe Galadriel travelled to Aman with the Noldor originally from the birth place of the Quendi (the people, Elves,) &#39;Cuivienen&#39;. (Although I&#39;m willing to be corrected on this. Maybe Vanyar or perhaps MorGy might know?) Galadriel resided in Aman during the times of the Two Trees and up until the point that Morgoth and Ungoliant slayed the Two Trees. Galadriel was exiled from Aman during the First Age, not because she took part in Feanor&#39;s rebellion or the kinslaying at Alqualond, (she actually fought against Feanor and thus met Celeborn, at least in one of Tolkien&#39;s versions. She was also one of the Noldor who crossed the Halcaraxe with Fingolfin.) She was exiled because of her desire to rule her own realm, or kingdom (Queendom?) if you will and her refusal to obey the Valar. At the end of the first Age after Morgoth&#39;s overthrow, Galadriel refused to return to Aman with the rest of the remaining Eldar, as she (at that point had not yet ruled a realm, having lived in Doriath with Melian and Thingol.) Galadriel was only allowed to return to the West (Aman) after demonstrating to the Valar that her desire for her own power was well and truly extinguished, ie by the refusal of the one ring, the ring that would have allowed her to rule all of Middle Earth. Quite simple stuff really. Any questions? Cheers.

  • Sept. 1, 2002, 8:21 a.m. CST

    What does that "101" thing mean, anyway?

    by Seepgood

    Elanor - please don&#39;t worry about sounding condescending, because you didn&#39;t. As it happens, the "pre-Christian" factor did occur to me after I posted, and I was planning to mention it today if nobody else had done so already. Honest. But hey, you beat me to it. Conan on the other hand...snarl...yes, I am familiar with all that, you patronising whatnot, and since you&#39;ve evidently read "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" you&#39;ll be aware that there&#39;s a profusion of mutually-contradictory information on the subject of Galadriel, that her history is a mess wrapped up in a conundrum, heavily seasoned with contradictions, in which it is not possible to tell which version of a particular episode ended up being the "official" one, if any. Now, I&#39;m working from distant memory here, but your account seems to mix and match elements from various versions of the story which you have presumably selected for your own reasons. I called it "confused and ambiguous" because that is exactly what it is. "Quite simple stuff" it emphatically is not. As for the specific question of Galadriel remaining under the Ban of the Valar after it was lifted from the rest of the Noldorin Exiles, by my recollection more than one version of that crops up, providing various explanations, none of which seemed (in my personal and strictly subjective opinion) to be very satisfactory. They all seemed more like contrivances to get around a problem than something arising naturally out of established elements of the story. Personally, I found the suggestion that Galadriel remained in Middle Earth by her own choice (along with other leading Noldor such as Gil-Galad), for reasons including those you mention, far more convincing. Or am I quite mistaken? Has some new document in Tolkien&#39;s handwriting entitled "The 100% Definitive Account of the History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Superseding all Previous Versions, Notes and Allusions, No Really, I Mean it This Time" been discovered in a laundry basket somewhere? Because if it hasn&#39;t you should think twice about sounding off so airily on the subject. Grrr.

  • Sept. 1, 2002, 8:32 p.m. CST

    I would like...

    by BG direct your attention to an interview with Walsh and Boyens that appeared in &#39;Script&#39; magazine last November. I know most of you have read it, but it&#39;s always good to refresh the memory with the writer&#39;s point of view. The scans begin here Start with the pic of Gandalf and work your way upward.

  • Sept. 1, 2002, 11:11 p.m. CST

    Them&#39;s Fightin Words...

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Seepgood, you&#39;re not Jollysleeve posting under another name are you? Ah well nevermind, Ahem, all right here we go... Given that you&#39;re obviously so well read, have you ever heard that it is generally considered that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit? My last post was not intended to patronise you (or anyone else for that matter.) I haven&#39;t got the faintest idea of of how much of TOLKIEN&#39;s work you have read. As stated by others above there ARE a large number of people who post in these TBs who have not read the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales, the book of Lost Tales etc and don&#39;t have the benefit of your extensive knowledge. As you don&#39;t seem to be a regular tailender and stated in relation to Galadriel&#39;s exile that it, "to my mind never made a great deal of sense." Forgive me for assuming that you&#39;re knowledge of this lore was rather limited. As to the Quite simple stuff really, remark, again that wasn&#39;t meant to be patronising however I do seem to have stooped to your level and used sarcasm in an (obviously) vain attempt to be humourous. I&#39;ll try not to let that happen again, lest you accuse me of being a hypocrite as well as a Whatnot!!! To that insult I&#39;m afraid I can only reply in as juvenile manner as I can manage that you sir, are a Tomnoddy. As to the &#39;official&#39; story, I&#39;m going by the story of Galadriel and Celeborn as Elanor correctly stated. That seems to be the most fully developed of TOLIENS works in relation to Galadriel. But if you don&#39;t want to believe the professor&#39;s own (and probably latest) thoughts about this matter, then I&#39;m not sure why we&#39;re arguing as nothing I can say will be compelling enough to change your mind. Cheers.

  • Sept. 2, 2002, 8:32 a.m. CST

    Up stakes, chickadees!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Looks like we might have a new TB... Muster, Eorlingas! Gather up your bows, swords, axes, and canisters of tear gas. If you feel like it. It might take a day or two to settle...

  • Sept. 2, 2002, 10:15 a.m. CST

    To Bjarki, on the off-chance that you siphon this from the reces

    by Seepgood

    You make a good point about the "pagan" mythology used by Tolkien being transmitted by Christian writers, while remaining largely devoid of Christian themes. However, in these stories the very idea of redemption, never mind the possibility of it, is never really on the cards. The peculiar thing about Tolkien&#39;s work, and the Lord of the Rings in particular, is the fact that redemption appears prominently as a concept and as a possibility for various characters, but this potential is not fulfilled. I think it would also be fair to say that Christian themes and patterns of thought in general are a much stronger influence on Tolkien&#39;s work than on his models.

  • Sept. 2, 2002, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Sarcastic? MOI?!

    by Seepgood

    I knew I should have said "thingummybob" instead of "whatnot". I could probably even have got away with "so-and-so". But of course I was foolish, and now I&#39;ve gone and caused mortal offence. Well, can&#39;t be helped. In defence of my testiness, I would just point out that had I not been familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales etc I would not have had any inkling that there was any confusion or ambiguity whatsoever about the story of Galadriel, therefore I assumed that my post implied pretty clearly that I was aware of said material, therefore it was hard not to see your response as patronising. As for your version representing Tolkien&#39;s latest thoughts, the account identified by Christopher Tolkien as his father&#39;s last writing on this subject (and on any subject relating to Middle Earth) has Galadriel crossing the sea independently on her own ship, not passing the Helcaraxe with Fingolfin, and receiving the permission of the Valar to return into the West but refusing to take advantage of it, not being forbidden to return. "The Professor&#39;s own (and probably latest) thoughts" is thus hardly a fair description of your version. Most wounding, however, is your charge of sarcasm. To irony I would plead guil-diddly-ilty with regard to that "100% Definitive Account" remark, but sarcasm? A gross calumny. **** Elanor - I was not complaining about the ambiguities in that part of the story, simply remarking their existence. In the words of the esteemed editor himself, "There is no part of the history of Middle-Earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings." As for the word "contrivance", it was probably ill-chosen, and not meant to cause umbrage. I was simply trying to indicate my reasons for finding one type of explanation for Galadriel&#39;s continued sojourn in Middle Earth more satisfactory than the other.

  • Sept. 2, 2002, 7:33 p.m. CST

    Bjarki - one more plunge into the murky waters of the posting or

    by Seepgood

    Final point? Well, I wasn&#39;t trying to make a point as such, just remarking on something that I found odd, which the discussion had brought to mind, in the hope of getting some other people&#39;s thoughts on the matter and maybe a solution to my puzzlement. I defer to your superior knowledge of Beowulf etc and withdraw my suggestion that Tolkien&#39;s works carry a stronger Christian emphasis in general, but I still think that the fact that redemption is clearly a live issue in the Lord of the Rings means that there is a distinction to be made between the two on this subject, and therefore something needing to be explained about Tolkien&#39;s approach. As for finding an actual answer to that question, the matter of the story&#39;s pre-Christian chronology keeps cropping up and seems to me to constitute a pretty solid explanation. In any case, it is probably as good a resolution to the problem as we&#39;re going to get. I suppose, tying in with another thread of the discussion, that the whole concept of "Arda marred" could be attributed to the idea of a world still waiting for salvation, rather than simply an imperfect world whose flaws cannot be made good before its end. Don&#39;t all say "of course it is, have you only just realised that?" at once. Anyway, seeing how much disarray this TB is in now, can I suggest that if you have any further remarks to make you might make them on the new TB or, if that violates some principle of tail-end ettiquette, send me an email. If you have nothing more to add, well, don&#39;t, obviously. Nice talking to you, anyway.

  • Sept. 3, 2002, 1:50 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Just testing to see where this ends up. Who do I have to sleep with to stop this from happening, that&#39;s what I want to know... Anyway, is Leo still doing his thang? Thanks for the tip, Elanor - I&#39;m off to check out Tasmanian Wolves on google - and the other TB is hosed too, so we&#39;re damned if we do and damned if we don&#39;t.

  • Sept. 3, 2002, 2:50 p.m. CST

    Let&#39;s try again... <NT>

    by AliceInWonderlnd

  • Sept. 3, 2002, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Forgiveness vs. Redemption

    by daughter of time

    **SPOILERS** While agreeing that redemption is a strong theme in Tolkien (and have discussed this myself), I don&#39;t think it applies to Frodo, as he has nothing to be redeemed FROM. As seems to me quite clear in the text, and as Tolkien himself said in his correspondence, Frodo&#39;s "failure" with the Ring is not a moral failure, but the equivalent of breaking under prolonged torture, and there is never the suggestion that any of those who knew the truth assigned him a moment of blame, or that he had any need of redemption. I and others have elaborated on this in earlier posts. If Frodo required any forgiveness, it was probably from himself. Boromir&#39;s is a greyer area, because, while it could be said that he gave in to the same torture (though far more easily), there were probably things he could have done to counter it - for example, by removing himself from the path of temptation - and of course he was particularly susceptible (out of all the members of the Fellowship) because of his very evident pride. He then lays down his life in defense of two small and insignificant members of the Company - a negation of the pride that was his failing. He is also shown redeemed by his love for the hobbits and (in Jackson&#39;s version)for his acknowledged king, Aragorn. He has achieved his own redemption. I doubt very much that Frodo would have any problem adding his forgiveness, any more than Aragorn does.

  • Sept. 3, 2002, 5:17 p.m. CST

    Innocence vs. Experience

    by daughter of time

    Wish I had the exact quote here, but for my money, the most important theme of the book is expressed in Frodo&#39;s "some people have to give things up so that others may keep them." Put that next to Gandalf&#39;s speech to Frodo (the one transposed by Jackson into Moria), and all else is secondary.

  • Sept. 3, 2002, 5:26 p.m. CST

    Tasmanian Wolves

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Found some awesome pics of these... what a sad story! Very much dug that yawn they could do, that was completely freaky. If anyone else wants to check it out: thylacine/ (gap before thylacine needs removing) and it&#39;s a fascinating visit. Oh, and I asked Leo for a spoiler! It&#39;s all so exciting! SWOON UPDATE: Alice is Currently Swooning Over: That shot from the TTT preview where Frodo is showing someone the business end of Sting. Go, you little bad-ass!

  • Sept. 3, 2002, 6:30 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

  • Sept. 3, 2002, 6:40 p.m. CST

    OK elanor,...

    by BG;s schoolin&#39; time! (Assumes professorial voice and mannerisms) The Tasmanian "wolf" or, as it&#39;s better known in this part of the world, the Tasmanian "tiger" is, surprisingly enough, from Tasmania. Tasmania is an island off the southern coast of Australia and is a state of Australia. There has never been a Tasmanian "wolf" in New Zealand, it therefore has no more significance to NZ or NZers than, say, the American Bald Eagle has to Bangladesh. So to cut a long story short, there is no obvious reason why the WETA designers would base their Warg designs on the Tasmanian "wolf". Maybe the person who created the design is an Aussie, or even a Tasmanian?

  • Sept. 4, 2002, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Frontline Special (in case anyone finds this)

    by daughter of time

    Did anyone else happen to watch the PBS Frontline special last night? Can&#39;t remember the exact title, but it was something like "Faith and Doubt at Ground Zero," and it was a profound and fascinating look at how people&#39;s relationship with God and their concept of evil has changed post-9/11. I would urge anyone who missed it (and who has access to U.S. television) to watch the repeat. One image worth remembering was presented by a woman who said that evil has a strong undertow, like standing knee-deep in the ocean, and that the compulsion to surrender to it should not be underestimated. Which I think is very pertinent to what we have been discussing. (As was Vladimir Putin&#39;s saying, "To them, we are as dust," regarding the tendency of evil to de-personalize others.) And that is all, unless this talkback unhoses!

  • Sept. 4, 2002, 6:13 p.m. CST

    Something peculiar... Possible virus?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Was chatting to Pallando today... (I tell you, follow the Swooner&#39;s Code and women will look you up) but seriously, has anyone else been getting weird posts purporting to be from other Tailenders that only contain a subject line? I wrote to him last night over an enigmatic email he supposedly sent to me earlier in the week. He knew nothing about sending me anything. But he also had received something strange, and last week I received something from someone with the addy thatswguy@...forget the rest, but the name is familiar, I think from here. Anyone else getting these? I think if they are we should tell the webmaster. Personally, I think it that Elfy is venting his spleen after his last sordid banning. It&#39;s not damaging, but it is quite strange.

  • Sept. 4, 2002, 6:18 p.m. CST

    Good God! Unhosed! Sing hosanna! Thank you, TB Gods!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    SWOON UPDATE - Alice is Currently Swooning Over: Aragorn&#39;s menacing, muttered "Boromir... give the Ring to Frodo" whilst clasping his hilt.

  • Sept. 4, 2002, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Alice, At Last!

    by daughter of time

    I was starting to think I was alone here.... You forgot the crucial conclusion: the shot of Aragorn&#39;s knuckles (which would presumably be white, were they not already bruised) releasing his grip on the sword hilt as he realizes he will not have to whack off Boromir&#39;s head to protect Frodo, after all. ***By the way, NOT counting swoony character moments, what is everyone&#39;s vote for the freeze-frame with the most purely beautiful cinematography? I am torn between the Fellowship starting to paddle away from Lorien (not the first shot, but the second, where you can really see the pastel clouds in the distance) and the long shot of Frodo on the shore, in profile, facing the boats. Also rans: 1) the first shot of Frodo and Sam looking out across Emyn Muil to Mordor (it&#39;s stark, but awesome), 2)the blue-tinted foggy downs, just as the Nazgul looms darkly into the frame, 3) the Nazgul scattered around the woods at dawn, outside of Bree, feeling the Ring&#39;s presence, and of course, 4) the Argonath. However, I think Frodo at the boats gets the prize for both pure aesthetics and emotional content.

  • Sept. 4, 2002, 7:23 p.m. CST

    Odd E-mails

    by daughter of time

    I did get a couple of odd e-mails shortly after I began posting here. No text - just something about playing someone&#39;s new game. I had the impression it might be a child rather than a pervert, and anyway, they stopped.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 12:35 a.m. CST

    Excellent post Ingold...

    by BG

    ...your silence says more than words ever could ;-)

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 7:24 a.m. CST

    Cinematic vistas...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Actually, that shot of the Ring lying in the snow, forefront, with the rest of the mountains in the background is pretty damn sweet. Ingold, yes, I am interested and will mail on my detaily things. I already have Runelord&#39;s address so this should be a brisk business. I know the game thing is definitely a virus, but the others were strange. The one from Pallando was titled "Language", which I thought was perhaps the moody sloucher himself gently scolding me for my Orcish mouth. (Not drawing room, my dears, oh no not at all...)

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 7:27 a.m. CST

    And putting that Orcish mouth back to use...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    This is starting to get on my tits.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 10:32 a.m. CST

    The Screaming Trees

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    morGy - never thought of it. I&#39;ll have a listen tonight. (Sigh) A fangirl&#39;s work is never done. Must send details to Ingold! And what is up with the hosery lately? This blows goats. Many goats, of all different breeds and colours. DoT: I didn&#39;t *forget* that moment! I was just too distracted to write it down! SWOON UPDATE - Alice is Currently Swooning Over: The whole, 1000-long novel called "The Lord of the Rings", which is essentially one long White Shirted Moment for Mr. Frodo Baggins.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 1:21 p.m. CST

    The Nature of Evil

    by daughter of time

    Before I tackle Bjarki&#39;s question, I did find out the PBS special is going to be repeated next week (8 p.m. on Sept. 11 on the local PBS station), but anyone can check for listings AND read the transcript of the whole two-hour program on the website. ***As for my own thoughts about Evil, I do lean toward its existence as something separate from human nature, which is certainly capable of evil (lower case) on a large scale. I have only known one person I would have truly called evil. When I first moved to San Diego, I worked with my sister at a small, Victorian hotel that was slowly going under (we managed to keep it afloat longer than anyone expected) but was eventually bought out by yuppie sharks. One of these, the new general manager, was someone I could see shoveling people into boxcars to keep in with his superiors. (The irony was that he was Jewish.) I was not alone in this thinking. An Italian maid used to routinely make the sign to ward off the evil eye whenever she saw him, and would vehemently warn people that he was evil. The thing that stood out about him was his utter indifference to the staff as human beings. We were, to quote Putin, "as dust" to him. Needless to say, I was one of the first to go; he&#39;d probably have had me shot, if he could, after I stood up to him at a staff meeting. (I think it half killed him that he couldn&#39;t!) But the point here is that evil is as likely to be found in the ranks of middle management as in heads of state - among the Wormtongues as much as the Sarumans. But as for Evil, my sister and I have sometimes speculated that there is a great cloud of it that circles the world, descending one time in Nazi Germany, another in Chile or Cambodia or Bosnia or Afghanistan, only to lift and concentrate elsewhere. For it to manifest argues that it exists independently of human psychology. An Islamic scholar on the PBS program suggests (as I think would most Christian theologians) that Evil exists, but that humans have to open the door to let it in - in some cases, en masse. I also think that evil is something cold-blooded, rather than hot-blooded, and crimes of passion, desperation and ignorance would not come under its umbrella. Well, I could spend the rest of my life trying to work this one out, and have already taken up too much of my morning, but in balance, I would have to see that Evil does exist, though we have to be careful what we blame on it, let alone how we choose to fight against it. It would be a matter for a whole separate discussion how LOTR presents these choices.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 3:24 p.m. CST

    Evil: Awesome Quote from PBS Frontline

    by daughter of time

    The following is one of the quotes I mentioned earlier, from Dr. Ann Ulanov, Psychoanalyst, Professor of Theology: "...I believe that evil, yes, you can get to it yourself. You can go to the place you&#39;ve been hurt or threatened to be destroyed, or pieces of you have been destroyed, mangled, treated as if they are of no value. You can get to your outrage, your absolute determination to retaliate for vengeance, and you can understand how you feel that because of something done to you. But deeper than that, it&#39;s like an undertow of the ocean. It&#39;s like an undertow current, a force that invites you to join it. As your feel are being pulled out from under you by the undertow, and you get caught in that, you&#39;re in something outside yourself. The personal explanation is not enough. Even the psychological explanation - archetypal patterns of energy, unconscious instincts of hate and cannibalism - even that isn&#39;t enough. That&#39;s involved, too, but it&#39;s as if one has a spell cast on one. But you feel you are caught in what the New Testament calls principalities and powers. It&#39;s a power that catches you, and you are not enough by yourself to defeat it."

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 3:30 p.m. CST

    The Nature of Evil... a musing...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I haven&#39;t made up my mind whether evil is a real active external force in the world or merely a product of human consciousness. The jury is still out there. The irony, however, is that whenever I&#39;ve met evil people (happens very rarely, but does happen) they are characterised less by the presence of some kind of evil force/anima/presence, and more by the *absence* of something. They were all energy vacuums, and the people around them merely fuel. Maybe it&#39;s true - evil is what there is when God isn&#39;t there. Though I&#39;m not sure I believe in God, though I do beleive the notion of God more likely than the existence of an active, independent evil. Anyhoo. Enough about what I&#39;m not sure I believe in - lest I be accused of being an intellectual vacuum - yet again. SWOON UPDATE - Alice is Currently Swooning Over: Boromir, noble Man of Gondor, pleading for forbearance for his overwrought little halfling friends. "Give them a moment, for pity&#39;s sake!"

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 4:01 p.m. CST

    Evil is Definitely an Absence

    by daughter of time

    But that would go with the undertow theory, wouldn&#39;t it? Evil is the call of the Void, if you will. The sucking of everything that IS. Sauron cannot create, he can only pervert. I absolutely agree, Alice, that evil is a coldness and a lack of soul/anima. I believe that people can turn from God or goodness or connectedness with others so consistently as to extinguish their own souls (I do not mean, not BELIEVE in God, as I think people can be quite close to God, or the Center, or Absolute Good, without any personal belief in God, per se). I still think that the ultimate reality is Love, even though the human experience would argue the contrary. Many years ago, I was lying on my bed reading, listening to music, a very ordinary evening... and without warning had the most overpowering sensation/flash of the reality of God-as-Love and the absolute loving interconnectedness of all beings; I KNEW in that instant that I was neither separate from God nor separate from anyone else. It would have literally knocked me flat if I hadn&#39;t already been lying down. It would be nice to think I arose from that and become a saint, but I didn&#39;t. Not was it ever repeated.... The thing is, though, that was the most "real" moment of my life, and no matter how cynical I am about the human condition, or how distant I might feel from God at any given moment, I can&#39;t get away from thinking that the negative is the illusion - that beyond all the wars and famine and torture is something just inconceivably beautiful and loving and eternal. Which I think Tolkien would agree with. ***And just to lighten up a little before lunchtime, have I mentioned two swoon-worthy freeze-frame moments? Frodo in the dark hollow just as Legolas says "A lament for Gandalf..." and Legolas as he says, "The grief is still too near." ***And I, too, think the trees are groaning.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 5:23 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    You are correct, sir. Each Swooning Moment has its own Swoon Focus, as it were. So technically, Aragorn&#39;s stunned disbelief at Gandalf&#39;s death is one, Merry and Pippin sobbing is another, and Frodo&#39;s tear is another, even though each follows hard upon the other. Gimli&#39;s rage to get back into Moria would be another, were Gimli prominent on my personal swoon calendar, which he isn&#39;t. However, if he asks for a strand of Galadriel&#39;s hair with the book speech, that may well change. Openings could be made. Way to chat up an immortal Elf Queen... Anyway, DoT, really funny you saying that. I was once crossing a main road, smoking a Silk Cut, after eating an unpalatable lunch at the trendy local vegetarian restaurant, and hurrying back to my unrewarding job, when I suddenly understood why God had created Man. And it made perfect sense - the whole thing. And I felt lit up from inside and glowed all day. Can I remember the actual *reason* God created Man now? No, I can&#39;t. And the religious experience of the world is thereby diminished. Oh well. Daresay I&#39;ll find out again, one fine day. SWOON UPDATE - Alice is Currently Swooning Over: Sam and Frodo gazing out into Mordor at the end of the movie.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 5:35 p.m. CST

    The Aftermath of Gandalf&#39;s Fall...

    by daughter of time

    ... is definitely an extended sequence of swoon-worthy moments, most of which we have mentioned, but how about the moment Frodo starts forward toward Gandalf BEFORE the fall, and Boromir reaches out to pin him back with his arm? He is so instinctively protective of them all, maybe even more so than Aragorn, if you add up all these little moments. I don&#39;t care if Aragorn was right, militarily, in forcing them onto their feet, it was Boromir&#39;s plea to "give them a moment" that earns him my eternal devotion. Also, Frodo&#39;s turn with that tear running down his cheek may be his most poignant moment in the whole film. And that&#39;s saying something. But the whole thing: Frodo&#39;s "NO!!!", Boromir carrying him out, the silence except for the thwack of the arrows and the boy soprano, the emerging onto that stark, pale "moonscape," the desolation of grief on the rocks, Frodo in isolation, slowly turning his head.... If any other movie had ONE such sequence, it would be an automatic Oscar.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 6:22 p.m. CST

    Ingold - It&#39;s a Britishism, dude

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    And a rather coarse one, but perfectly summed up my feelings at that moment. I know I&#39;ve heard that damned quote - it&#39;ll probably bother me all night! Hell. Well, I&#39;m trapped in the office for the forseeable future - it&#39;ll be sometime before dawn before I get out of here. May as well amuse myself with a bit more swooning and related chatter. As for the trees groaning, I&#39;m sure the sound people would have designed it to be quite traumatic sounding on general principles. Saruman is raping the earth, and he&#39;s going to get his good and proper, bad boy that he is. Actually, has anyone checked out the Lego LOTR site lately? He&#39;s done an awesome Treebeard! It&#39;s fantastic! Have a link: /lotr/lotrstory/book3/chapter304/ lotrstory304-01.html. (Remove the spaces after bricktales and before lotrstory304-01). SWOON UPDATE - Alice is Currently Swooning Over: Legolas, clearly annoyed but holding back his Elven mates as Gimli mixes it up with him at the Council of Elrond. Clearly got the most sense out of all of them.

  • Sept. 5, 2002, 8:26 p.m. CST

    Entertaining Alice

    by daughter of time

    Alice, I know what it&#39;s like when you&#39;re bored out of your skull and the posts just don&#39;t appear. So I won&#39;t wait until I actually have anything to SAY, but just ramble on here.... I was thinking the other day how great it&#39;s going to be when we finally get some new stunning moments (swoon-worthy moments will probably keep us going until December 2003. I am thinking of things like first seeing those stairs in Moria (I was babbling mentally through the whole sequence, being afraid of heights and not really great with stairs; I knew I&#39;d have turned to the Orcs and said "Shoot me now!" rather than face THAT) - and speaking of which, can you really imagine a race built like dwarves incorporating quite so many flights of narrow, impossibly steep stairs? Other shocks that lost their immediacy (but were still appreciated) with repetition: the first shot of Barad-Dur, when the mere out-tower is dizzying enough, and then the camera turns and begins to climb; the swoop from Orthanc into the pits below; the big chunk of snowy mountain barely missing the Fellowship; the shot emerging from Moria. I hope we don&#39;t get the kind of visual spoilers in trailers for TTT that deny us this "first" experience in the theatre.

  • Sept. 6, 2002, 12:02 a.m. CST

    Can I just mention...

    by BG

    ...that NZ has made the semifinals of the basketball world cup and the USA hasn&#39;t!!?! ...freaky. P.S. LOTR rules! (Ahhh... back on topic).

  • Sept. 6, 2002, 12:43 a.m. CST

    A mOm chimes in...

    by JD1866

    Hullo tailenders, old and new. Just thought I&#39;d step outta my lurker mode to add my .02 cents on the nature of evil. I read once that absolutely anyone is capable of absolutely anything and I believe this. We all carry within ourselves the so-called seed of evil and if not guarded vigilantly it will germinate and grow. You can trust people to people, especially when pushed too far or backed into a corner. *** morGy - how funny that you should mention the trees! Me and JD the Taller were watching FotR last weekend and we both remarked on the same thing. Those poor trees WERE groaning and I JUST can&#39;t WAIT to see the repercussions when they bite ol&#39; Saruman in the ass!

  • Sept. 6, 2002, 11:54 a.m. CST

    Original Sin, Anyone?

    by daughter of time

    Isn&#39;t that what it means, that the seeds are in all of us? And we all face temptation, all the time, to let the seed grow (or to let evil in), though usually the moment is petty and almost unrecognizable, and other times monumental. Which is why I think its important to flex our moral muscles from time to time on the small stuff, and our imaginations on the large, which is where truly great fiction (such as Tolkien&#39;s) is important. Aside from being endlessly entertaining.

  • Sept. 6, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Seeds of Evil

    by daughter of time

    Ingold, my own argument would never be that we are all capable of everything. For example, take the famous experiment where college students were asked to deliver electric shocks to fellow students in another room, and a horrifying number of them kept delivering well above the pain threshold to please the instructor. Now, I am as certain as I can be of anything that I would have refused absolutely to assist in what I WOULD have recognized as torture. But is that because at a very early age I began asking myself moral questions, and that one had, for me, an easy answer ("You don&#39;t HURT people in the name of education!")? I&#39;m just not sure we can tell exactly what we&#39;d do in many situations until we are pushed to the wall. Lots of otherwise "moral" people disintegrate completely under military occupation, for example; others buckle under "mere" loss of livelihood, and others under the threat of making a few million less than they were expecting. You might not torture voluntarily, but what if someone you loved were threatened with death or torture if you refused? The permutations are endless, never mind the genetic predispositions, issues of culture and education, etc. (By the way, I think it was C.S. Lewis who pointed out that Nazi Germany was the product of the most educated and cultured society on earth, which is a scary thought.) But I think to consider what we&#39;d do ourselves under various stresses(and what we&#39;d do to stand up to others doing it) is immensely important, in case the moment comes before we&#39;re expecting it (as it did with Frodo, who yet managed to turn terror into "What must I do?").

  • Sept. 6, 2002, 5:10 p.m. CST

    Milgram/experiments and evil

    by Xyzan

    It sounds like the student experiment is another version of the one conducted by Milgram in the 1950&#39;s. (Originally designed as a psychological experiment to prove that the people of Nazi Germany were different, it ackfired on its aims). of all the people tested, 64% were willing to administer the total amount of shocks, i think it was just over 400 volts. only a small handful of people refused. It was eventually concluded (and its been supported by retries, but more often in a different format because of all the ethical problems the experiment caused) that the compulsion to oobey orders is stronger than was thought. As to the nature of evil, i&#39;ve always taken a view that there is evil in all of us. It&#39;s only my belief, but i think there is a balance of both good and evil in each of us, and its only when an imbalance occurs, whether through circumstance or oppinion, that the scales are tipped and an action becomes evil. most people probably lean towards good actions, or at least fall between indifferent and good, and there is potential for all actions to be good. it is generally harder to be unconciously evil and not to feel guilt afterwards. but i dont think there is an external force that is evil, but that there&#39;s going to be balance and choice in all beings. Maybe t&#39;s just a little harder in this society to define the differences between orders and right. *****"I poked a badger with a spoon", "I&#39;ve never heard that one before"******.

  • Sept. 7, 2002, 12:19 a.m. CST

    Geez, you guys are still here?

    by Runelord

    Well, it

  • Sept. 7, 2002, 10:24 a.m. CST

    Yes, we&#39;re still loitering

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Just waiting for the next proper TTT Talkback, not those piracy ones... Cheers.

  • Sept. 7, 2002, 4:10 p.m. CST

    Ingold, I seee Yoouuuu too

    by JD1866

    You do recall that not all of the Palantiri are accounted for? *** morGy - Yes, dim, as usual. While I have no problem with a Legitimate CAP, I do have issues with those that are Unauthorized (you know, the ones that are usually written in crayon and signed by Ingold wall builder extrordinaire and would-be King of Gondor in a wacky, crazed out alternate universe). BTW, whatcha doin&#39; at Alqualonde? Consorting with the riff-raff? Come back to the Club, as your prodigal son has skipped town and left me to run it solo. Perhaps then I could find the time to post more often! *** I stand by my assertion that all people are capable of anything (great beauty and courage and well as great evil). No, none of us (hopefully) could stand the realities of murder and torture as we are now. However, most serial killers don&#39;t go from law-abiding and morally upright people to the monsters they end up being overnight. Many start by torturing insects and then move on to small animals before making the jump to people. The journey goes in degrees. Once you cross that first line, it becomes easier and easier to go farther down the road to ruin.

  • Sept. 8, 2002, 9:27 p.m. CST

    Check out...

    by BG

    ...the cool TTT pics over at TORN! There&#39;s a nice one of Gimli smoking his pipe while sitting on a dead orc, with Gimli&#39;s axe imbeded in it&#39;s head.

  • Sept. 8, 2002, 11:40 p.m. CST

    New pics!!

    by JD1866

    Thanks for the heads up, BG. Great pic of Gimli. After I checked out TORN, I went surfing around hoping that other new pics would be out. I found some new ones at set/image_08-09-2002.html (remove the space before set). Spoiler Warning. They have a supposed pic of Aragorn fighting a warg rider. I say supposed because the warg is facing away from the camera and from behind it looks like a horse. They also have a nice one of Legolas looking very intent while riding to battle. Some people might even find it swoon worthy ;o)

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 12:28 a.m. CST

    Thanks for the link JD.

    by BG

    Don&#39;t you think the thing the Uruk is riding is too hairy to be a horse?

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 10:14 a.m. CST

    Milgram told me to do it

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Just skimming when I saw that classic study mentioned - I don&#39;t think anyone&#39;s pointed out that the subjects of that experiment often actually wept, tore at their hair and exhibited other behaviours suggesting that it was contrary to their nature to torture a fellow human, but that they felt locked into a situation. They&#39;d signed a contract, after all. but that was back in the fifties, we&#39;re all rugged individualists now.. In context, this would explain the frequent SS war crime excuse about following orders, and also the behaviour of Vietnam war pilots dropping napalm. An example of dehumanising your victims would be the infamous Unit 731 in Manchuria where the Japanese practiced vivisection on the Chinese. The victims are regarded as less than human, but the purpose is handed down from above. Are these people evil? I don&#39;t think so. They&#39;re ordinary people in an extraordinary place. I&#39;d like to think I&#39;m not like them, but I won&#39;t know for sure until I&#39;ve been there. Jeffrey Dhamer, Fred West, Ed Gein are different. Their cruelty stems from a complete inability to recognise and allow for other peoples feelings while seeking their own gratification, sexual or otherwise. You see the same behaviour in children before they learn to decentre and allow for other children&#39;s feelings. Are they evil? They inspire revulsion, they seem evil, but its at core just extreme selfishness. So is there a cosmic evil? Hitler didn&#39;t consider himself to be evil, and neither did the Taliban. They had an ideology. Similarly, the Inquisition felt they were working for the highest good. Most global evil occurs when people commit extreme acts which they think will make a better world. Dubya scuppered the Tokyo accord because he felt it was bad for his own country. Not evil, just narrowminded. I work in contact with financial services, and all the time I deal with people who have been saddled with unspeakable debt arrangements, and the only motive is greed for commision. There aren&#39;t many people with a true, epic urge to destroy out of hatred, jealousy and resentment. If there&#39;s an original sin, its expressed in minor petty acts of selfishness and prejudice, sometimes on a grand scale. Nonetheless, people seem to have this urge to do good, sometime even to work together to improve the world. Stories are important because they communicate this infectious idea of goodness, and they illustrate what can be achieved if people overcome their own selfishness and prejudice. I&#39;m not at all Christian, BTW, but I accept that the universe has twin urges to create itself in more complex forms, and also to dissipate itself. We can personify these urges as Satan, Sauron, the Big Bad Wolf or whatever, and maybe in an infinite universe they can even take these shapes, but I feel that what we perceive as evil is this negative drive, and its in all of us. That probably puts me somewhere near Taoist / pantheist / Gaia theorist. Anyway, Tolkien might not have been an allegorist, but he borrowed enough archetypes to create a strongly moral fable.

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 2:01 p.m. CST

    It&#39;s Frodo&#39;s Story

    by daughter of time

    That&#39;s the word from John Rhys-Davies in the latest LOTR fan club magazine. There was an extended interview with him, and among other things, he mentioned that while the other characters are expanded in the next movies, the actors were told and understood that this is Frodo&#39;s story, for which they are supporting cast. This is, of course, VERY encouraging to those of us who want the continuation of the "Frodo-centric" version. He also said he had a hard time swinging the ax from his knees, and fell over the first time he tried it! There was also Part 2 of a fascinating story on the costuming, including how they finally came up with the elven cloaks - hand-woven from the wool of a breed of sheep existing only on one farm. I meant to bring the exact quote with me to work, but Ngila (?) was asked what moment stood out for her, among what was obviously many months of magic moments, and she said she was privileged to watch the "transformation" (I think that was the word) of Gollum, and it moved her to tears. This was not a computer-generated scene, but the live actors. If anyone has the quote, feel free to jump in here! Anyway, it is all very encouraging, and whets my interest more than any number of wargs or oliphaunts. ***And though I&#39;m almost exhausted on the subject of evil, I will say that I&#39;ve always considered evil (small "e") to be a complete breakdown in imagination or compassion - a lack of "there but for the grace of God go I." I would put many politicians in this category: people who can&#39;t imagine the struggles of the working poor, when they are rich; people who can&#39;t imagine being at the other end of the missiles flying, if it serves the "national interest," etc. If I was ever able to stand up to bullies in childhood and beyond, it was -despite being a well-behaved child and a physical coward who didn&#39;t even like to get dirty - I simply could not STAND watching other people be hurt or humiliated, and my sense of outrage would override my fear. (Add to that a strong identification with my martial Scottish ancestors!) So, yes, I figure if I could yell at bullies in a middle school cafeteria, I would have no problem calling a halt to experimental torture.

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 3:45 p.m. CST

    Passage of the Marshes

    by daughter of time

    It will be interesting to see how the Dead Marsh is expanded, since it only takes up two pages of "The Two Towers." That chapter does contain some brilliant writing, however. I was particularly struck, as I re-read them last night, by the passages describing Frodo&#39;s growing sense of the thinness of the veil between him and the will of Sauron, and also the description of the desolation outside of Mordor, ending with Sam&#39;s, "I feel sick." ***I&#39;ve thought of a new topic, if anyone wants to chime in. What specific sentences from TTT would you like to see included in the film dialogue? Specific swooning moments OK, too. I, for one, will be very unhappy if we don&#39;t get to see Frodo go all wobbly, blurt out his mission (and his fear) to Faramir, and pitch a faint into his arms.

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 4:57 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I will see your white-shirted Frodo swooning into Faramir&#39;s arms moment, and raise you a "Smeogol&#39;s going to end up in real true hot water", and "Hobbits go all the way to the bottom, and light little candles!".

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 6:06 p.m. CST

    Handicapped by Lack of Book....

    by daughter of time

    I will have to do serious research tonight, particularly as to Gollum-speech. I believe "Don&#39;t want fissh!" received a vote earlier. There&#39;s just so much to choose from.... "Is it crunchable? Is it tasty?" I should not even try to quote without references, especially in the matter of sibilants. Paraphrasing heavily, there MUST be the bit where Sam is trying to estimate the rations, and Frodo cuts in with, "If the Ring goes into the Fire and we are at hand, I ask you, Sam, are we likely to need food ever again?" (Hope I didn&#39;t botch that too horribly! Will try to bring the whole speech tomorrow.)

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 7:33 p.m. CST

    Not Going There

    by daughter of time

    So LOTR could have used a Han Solo character to lighten things up a bit...if only PJ hadn&#39;t been so "slavishly devoted" to the book. (Deep, deep shudder as I contemplate that THIS MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED, in other hands.) No, I am staying right here until the other talkback wears out their short little attention spans, and then we will see. Though I do like the sword vs. blaster debate. It&#39;s right up there with "could Mighty Mouse beat up Superman"?

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 10:14 p.m. CST

    DOT, what do you mean?

    by BG

    Of course MightyMouse could beat up Superman, and I&#39;ll have words with anyone who disagrees. :-)

  • Sept. 9, 2002, 10:32 p.m. CST

    SPOILERS follow.

    by BG

    Here is an answer from Leo: &#39;Does no Scouring necessarily = no Saruman death in the Shire?&#39;

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 10:02 a.m. CST

    To move or not to move?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I kind of like it here for the moment, and am checking both. The impression I take away from Ask Leo is that he doesn&#39;t have much time for Hobbits, and that&#39;s kind of skewing his presentation, as it were. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ll bother asking again unless something really pressing comes up. Lines I want to hear "Gandalf, I don&#39;t know how you feel with all of this small rag-tag dangling at your tail, but this small rag-tag would like to stop dangling and lie down". SWOON UPDATE - Alice is Currently Swooning Over: Moodily Slouching Smoking Bree-Lounging Strider with Glowing Pipe Action.

  • Sept. 10, 2002, noon CST

    Lots of Quotes

    by daughter of time

    Here is what Ngila Dickson had to say: "I have a lot of wonderful memories, but one that really stood out for me was standing on the set watching the transformation of Gollum and crying. It was one of the most moving pieces of performance I have ever seen. I thought to myself, &#39;This is why I am in the film industry, because I get to see these people deliver these fantastic performances.&#39;" Now, what I&#39;m wondering is, which transformation? ***Magnificent passages referenced yesterday: 1) "The Eye: that horrible sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to piece all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to pin you underneat its dead gaze, naked, immovable. So thin, so frail and thin, the veils were become that still warded it off." 2) "They had come to the desolation that lay before Mordor: the lasting monument to the dark labor of its slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void; a land defiled, diseased beyond all healing - unless the Great Sea should enter in and wash it with oblivion. &#39;I feel sick,&#39; said Sam. Frodo said nothing." (My own words inadequate here.) ***Major swooning/sobfest passage: "If the One goes into the Fire and we are at hand? I ask you, Sam, are w ever likely to need bread again? I think not." (And then Sam dropping tears onto Frodo&#39;s hand, and then stomping around and trying to whistle....) ***Some favorite Gollum-isms: "They jumps on us like cats on poor mices." "Cruel little hobbitses. Tie us up in the cold hard lands and leave us." (Also, "Where are they going in the cold hard lands we wonders?") "Ashes, ashes, and dust, and thirst there is; and pits, pits, pits, and Orcs, thousands of Orcses." - Puts you off Mordor almost as much as Boromir&#39;s and Gimli&#39;s eloquence on the subject! ***Good ones, Alice. And now I&#39;ll go take a look at that other talkback. And then maybe do a spot of work.

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 2:16 p.m. CST


    by Pallando Blue

    "Alas, my axe is notched. The forty-second had an iron collar on its neck." There&#39;s my pick for desperately awaited T2T quote! tho it seems PJ may be reducing the scores, downplaying The Competition? Accordin to Leo? ...Saw that Saruman/Shire comment, and yep flipped my lid too. But good grief I can&#39;t believe their ideas over there for rewriting the frigging MOUNT DOOM chapter. Ye GODS. To quote D.O.T. quoting Sam, I feel sick. Leo&#39;s got great spoiler connexions, but sounds like his taste is in his mouth. *** Actually, surprised to find y&#39;all still here. No go on the Drudge TBs, eh? Give the newest one &#39;til it&#39;s off the board? Feel bad for dropping a limerick on the poor bastards over there (my pearl! those swine! ;D ) but, shoot, when inspiration strikes, you know. Able to steal more time today than I expected, hopefully can again tomorrow... Alice, I promise I&#39;m not ramping up for a new Limerick Jam. Can&#39;t help when the muse wants to sneak up and nibble my ear, is all. ;)

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 2:26 p.m. CST

    Great Discussion of Uruk-Hai Battle

    by daughter of time

    My compliments to BG, Miami and everyone else who contributed to that masterly analysis of the Uruk-Hai battle. Wanted to join in, but you were all handling it so well, and anyway, I do have a job and hope to keep it. I&#39;d have posted my compliments there, but it looked as if the talkback was going downhill from that point.

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 3:01 p.m. CST

    Reeling in Horror

    by daughter of time

    After Pallando&#39;s post, I went over to take a look at Leo. Oh, ye gods and little fishes, can there be so many Tolkien readers that absolutely don&#39;t get it? Those suggestions for a better Mount Doom: Sam pushes Gollum in... Gollum dangles but grabs for Ring instead of hand... and best of all, heroic little Gollum jumps in VOLUNTARILY! (Pause while I put the brown paper bag over my head to stop hyperventilating.) For one thing, the only POSSIBLE objection to being absolutely true to Tolkien is that (cinematically) it might be difficult to portray Gollum&#39;s struggle with an invisible Frodo, but this is EASILY solved by use of Jackson&#39;s brilliant Ring Vision. In fact, that could be Ring Vision&#39;s finest hour - even compared with Amon Hen. How anyone could think of changing a climax that is so shocking and tragic and PERFECT and that every other moral choice by these characters leads to...!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 4:31 p.m. CST

    Gollum - Brave, heroic, self-sacrificing... um...?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Yeah, that&#39;ll do it. If you really want to see JRRT roll in his goddamned grave, just pervert the moral underpinnings on which the whole catastrophe DEPENDS. Gollum has to be slain by his own evil, just at the point where the Hobbits are simply too knackered to do a damn thing either way. Sam pushing Gollum in is MURDER. SWOON UPDATE: Alice is Currently Swooning Over: (Badly recalled Frodo book dialog that kind of went like...) "If there is no other way, then this is the road I must take. I do not ask for any to go any further with me." when faced with the Black Gate. Just before Gollum starts up about his "secret way". You know, *Gollum*. The self-effacing, true-hearted hero of the piece. Faugh! As Faramir might say.

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 5 p.m. CST


    by Xyzan

    I know the quote i most want in ROTK probably wont be included, but i really wanted to hear Merry telling Frodo "You cannot save the Shire by being sorry and sad my dear Frodo". That would make my day. theres currently several quotes for TTT that i really wanna hear! Gandalf telling Pippin off, "A fool, but an honest fool you remain.", as well as the little dialouge between frodo and gollum. ("Don&#39;t ask smeagol. Poor, poor Smeagol, he went away long ago. They took his Precious, and he&#39;s lost now." "Prehaps we can find him again, if you come with us," "No, no never. He&#39;s lost his Precious.") That scene would be cool, after that, theres just a quote between faramir and gollum after the fishes scene. "No name, no busines, no Precious, nothing. Only empty, only hungry; yes, we are hungry. A few little fishes, and they say death. So wise they are, so just, so very just." "Not very wise, but just: yes perhaps as just as our little wisdon allows." i cant wait for this movie!

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 5:36 p.m. CST

    Very well... but it was kind of nice here, once the order stoppe

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Oh, very well. Mind you, people are calling the Queen of the Harpies over there, so I don&#39;t know about "civil"... mind, I&#39;m not terribly civil myself...

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 5:41 p.m. CST

    So you were caught by the very person who was after you all alon

    by Seepgood

    His own evil? Well yes, but it seems to me that the Ring&#39;s evil (and by extension Sauron&#39;s) is also very much to the point. The enslaving power that is the Ring&#39;s raison d&#39;etre proves to be its undoing and Sauron is brought down by his own malice. Poetic justice and the basic self-destructive futility of evil, style of fing. **** Incidentally, did Conan ever read my latest post on the Galadriel business? I only ask because I never got a response to that one.

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    (fine, morG, in a minute!) Now then, SCENE: Gollum, on the Fiery

    by Pallando Blue

    Strides up so the balls of his feet are to the very edge. Rears up, back straight, shoulders squared. Places stubby finger, with The Ring still lodged between the second knuckle and the gory end, delicately between his teeth like a rose. Extends arms fully to either side. Closes his eyes. Dangling toes give a slight wiggle; takes deep breath around finger. Crouches slightly, eyes fly open, then HUP! ......Now then, a crucial directorial decision for PJ: A precise, perfectly executed jacknife, or slow-motion tear-jerking swan dive? *** Of course, if I had my druthers (and I do like me some druthers), Gollum would chomp off the finger giggling a Simpsons-esque "Yoink!", get a big running start the entire length of the ledge, then, right at the tip, jump off, tuck his legs up into his chest, and yell "CANNONBAAAAAAALLLLLL!!!!!"

  • Sept. 10, 2002, 6:21 p.m. CST

    Great Quotes, Alice and Xyzan

    by daughter of time

    Alice, I would have included Frodo&#39;s determined little speech at the Black Gate, but my hand was getting tired scribbing down all the rest. And who could forget, "How wise they are, how very just..."? Tonight, I&#39;m reading "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol," in which one of the most heart-felt and touching scenes in all literature is followed closely by Gollum&#39;s almost repentence and the fateful triggering of his ultimate damnation. Whole pages must be lifted from this one.

  • Sept. 11, 2002, 6:38 a.m. CST


    by Buck Teeth Soh

    not familiar with Manchaeism, but I know of Zoroastrianism (that Darius; what a psycho!). Quite interesting, and I&#39;ve always preferred polytheistic faiths on account of my short attention span and craving for variety, especially since you can watch them evolve. But personally I recognise the importance of evil/negativity/destructiveness as an opposing force - evil inspires good, and death is an essential part of life. Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Islam and all their pedigree seem to my mind to seek to annihilate evil and death instead of acknowledging them as part of a dynamic process. Just my weltanschauung.

  • Sept. 11, 2002, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Not a Dualist

    by daughter of time

    Destruction can be creative (as when one chisels marble to uncover a David or burns wood for light and heat); Evil never is. Evil creates nothing, not even the "reaction" of good; the good that comes from evil is a function of goodness itself. Terrorists did not "create" heroes a year ago today; their evil actions created circumstances in which latent heroism could emerge. I would not thank them for it.

  • Sept. 11, 2002, 7:35 p.m. CST


    by daughter of time

    Just posted a nice little message to you on the OTHER talkback, by mistake.

  • Sept. 11, 2002, 11:39 p.m. CST

    I believe so Seepgood

    by Conan_the_Humble

    If your post stated things about Galadriel not crossing the Halcaraxe in TOLKEINS last version of their story. Maybe when Christopher TOLKEIN releases the Ultimate/Special/Collectors Edition of the Silmarillion, thius argument may be solved one way or the other? Cheers.

  • Sept. 12, 2002, 8:23 p.m. CST

    Fair enough then Conan

    by Seepgood

    What with the mess the posting order was in at that point I thought it was worth checking. I&#39;ll shut up now.

  • Sept. 12, 2002, 8:32 p.m. CST

    music of the spheres

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    bjarki, you are of course correct, about the Christian if not the Judaeo- tradition, although that philosophy is not common to all denominations. I only know Boethius through Chaucer, as "Boece". Sadly my attitude to divine ineffability is coloured by wading through Paradise Lost, which is a very bad advert for Christianity. ** DoT - I stand by my previous point, humans rarely seek to consciously achieve evil, it is their intention to accomplish selfish aims at the expense of others. Goodness is often, but not always, an act of revulsion against that selfishness. For example, as a result of 9/11 various nations have fought harder for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. I wish them luck. Since we&#39;re all intelligent people, I think I can safely make the unpopular point that bin Laden and Al-Qaida did not consider themselves to be evil - they considered America to be the great evil. You&#39;d think that&#39;s a terrible, misguided assumption, but the rhetoric from our leaders about "freedum" and "democrucy" as justification for a pre-emptive attack on another nation is fundamentally no different. You&#39;re correct that heroism and goodness are latent. I&#39;m of the opinion that evil and selfishness are also latent in all of us, but people are defined by their actions, not their potential, and actions are a reaction to circumstance.