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CptTrekkie's Alleged look at STAR TREK: NEMESIS!!!
Hey folks, Harry here... If in addition to the fun I'm having with this summer's films... If Paramount has actually made a kick ass STAR TREK movie, I'll be so delighted. I love a good Trek film. Though, this does come from a reviewer that prefers DS9 and 'Enterprise' to the Classic Series, which is just damn near boderline indicator of lead paint ingestion. Here's CptTrekkie...
Hey Harry, CptTrekkie here; (yes, I have "geek" spelled all over me)
A friend of mine in Paramount recently lent me a roughcut (and I mean *rough*) of Star Trek: Nemesis. I just finished watching it, and before I begin my review I'd just like to list some of my favorite films, to give anyone who reads this an idea of my tastes: Blade Runner, LotR, A.I. (the most underrated film of all time), Star Treks 2, 3, 8, and now 10, Raiders, Empire, and Life is Beautiful. DS9 is the best Trek series, followed closely by Enterprise (the new show) and Kirk & Co. Anyhow...
Once upon a time, it was cool to be a trekkie. Now, however, Star Trek is generally considered to be too preachy. First Contact sort of addressed the problem with its higher level of action, but never quite hit the mark. I'm proud to say though that Nemesis does reach that point, in remarkable fashion.
**MILD SPOILERS AHEAD**
For those that hated the online draft of the script, I must inform you that most of the dumb jokes in that draft ("Is that your final answer?") have been obliterated. The climax battle has been abbreviated slightly, probably due to budget problems, but it is still easily the longest and most impressive space dogfight of all the Star Trek films, beating the living hell out of 'The Wrath of Khan' finale ... and this was a rough cut.
Tom Hardy was excellent as the film's villain Shinzon, and I can easily say that this will be his breakout performance. For instance, when he's being confronted by Picard via holotransmition during a comma in the climax, you can just see him emotionally tearing apart as Picard tells him what he could be if he was good.
Patrick Stewart gives his usual charismatic preformance, although coming off a tad bit corny on occasion (this is usually because of a bad line though.) As far as the lesser stars go, Marina Sirtis (sp?) is too weepy, but the rest of them give solid preformances.
The plot and pacing are perfect to rescue the franchise from it's stereotype of being slow and talky, though this film might have come too late to change that. The action is abundant, and there is enough substance to keep the story from becoming brainless. From what I could tell, the special effects will be eye openers once they are finished, and I hope they aren't ruined by being totally exposed in the trailers and ads, like what happend with First Contact (one could take all the Borg Cube battle footage in its ads, cut/paste them in the correct order, and make the entire battle without a shot missing.)
Now for the nits. While 'Nemesis' on the whole is outstanding (don't let the online draft fool you), it does have some elements which blatantly borrow from other Star Trek films, and even Return of the Jedi. Picard's attempt to convert Shinzon to, quite litterally, the good side of the force are way too similar to Luke & Vader in Jedi. The way that the climax is structured is also a bit too similar to The Wrath of Khan, despite being far superior to TWK's already superior action sequence. Other then that and one or two lame jokes that could still be edited out, 'Nemesis' will likely be a pleasant suprise for most who think it will suck. This is the Next Generation film we've all been waiting for. This is the film First Contact never managed to be. This is the first Star Trek film since #6 that does not look cheap and made for television. Stuart Baird did an outstanding directing j! ob, far better then I expected from the same man who directed the pedestrian (for lack of a less sophisticated word) Exectutive Decision. Enough said.
Cpt. Trekkie out.
PS: This is my first contribution to AICN, so sorry if the review is awkward.
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but I'm thinking plant.Maybe not,actually I hope it's not as I would love to go see a good Star Trek movie again.It's too bad this is the last film being made,as I really would have liked to see DS9 and Voyager tied in somehow,even in small amounts.Oh well.
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Not if this one makes a profit, I bet !
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perhaps picards persuades 'shindig' to come over to the federation side of the force by offering him a plot of land on bajor. I hear the owner has disappeared?
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any of you have read the previous spoiler of this movie would know, the villain is camp as it gets, the plot convoluted and we end up with a cheesy new robo-buddy by the end. OOPS! DID I SPOIL IT FOR YOU? Aw...shucks
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I don't hold out much faith for this flick, but you can never discount an even numbered Trek film. As far as best Trek series it's easily DS9, then TNG, then ENT, then TOS, then VOY. Sorry Harry, but TOS was all soft focus chicks, bad acting and styrofoam rocks. Although it was still miles better than the train wreck that was Voyager. Am I alone in thinking that VOY got worse AFTER 7O9 joined? And they managed to fuck up the Borg, de-mystified them too much.
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I've always liked Star Trek, the so called preachiness of the whole thing I can deal with, considering so many people out there could do with a bit of moral education.
I want this movie to succeed, and if if this review is real, then hopefully it will. -
It really is quite bad, and I can't see this film being any better than the last nine turds. Just my opinion. Nemesis won't even be as good as the first minute of AOTC. Star Wars ROCKS and will live forever.
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I just hope it's more of a film this time and not just "one long episode with a slightly higher budget" like Generations.
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Jun 20, 2002 8:41:19 AM CDT
Fool! You can't top Wrath of Khan! It is very cold in spaaaa
by antiriad
I never forget a faaaaaayce!
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As much as I like the TNG characters I couldn`t be bothered to see the last film (can`t even remember the name even) and probably won`t be seeing this. Would love to see a mega montey DS9 film which IMO was the bst of the series by a LONG long way. Bring back Sisko!!
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Jun 20, 2002 9:16:07 AM CDT
Trek XI Cast? Ryker, Data, Seven, Worf, Ro, Tuvok, Quark, Docto
by fuckleberry hinn
Well, that's my dream cast. I'd include Spock, of course, but he'd never show. And Sulu would be dead anyway...
Hope I'm not forgetting anyone... -
Jun 20, 2002 9:17:15 AM CDT
I hate to get involved because it means admitting I watch this s
by snuggleskunk
But seriously, I have never met anyone who prefers DS9 and Enterprise. Except girls (of course being a girl this is confusing because I love next generation and every time i hear that it might be the Romulans I jump up and down with glee) (its ok I have a boyf already so I don't have to be cool). I've always figured this was due to the fact DS9 and Enterprise focus on the touchy feely aspect of human life and have touching episodes about small children. This is all that is evil about Star Trek. What is cool about Star Trek is when you hear the word photon torpedoes and you know some alien ass is going to get kicked. Judging by this guys taste in films (AI???????????) and tv series I have a feeling this is going to be a touchy feely film with way to much data going "Ah so this is the human emotion of pain,love something else cheesy". Never know though could be cool if theres enough ass whooping (is that how you spell ass whooping? )
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Forget "Star Trek: Nemesis"! They need to make a picture based on Shriekback's 1980's club smash "Nemesis"! "We drink elixers/that we refine/from the juices/of the dying" - some really wacked out imagery there. Will somebody please get this into production? Or do I have to do everything myself? sk
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The Dominion War on DS9 featured some of the best action ever to grace a Trek series. DS9 was Trek for grown ups.
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If the public thinks TOS was just "soft focus and styrofoam rocks", then this could explain why garbage like "Scooby Doo" makes $56 million in its opening.
Nemesis will probably be like the other TNG films: A bloated TV-movie in Panavision. Probably some kewl eye candy in some shots, but overall empty.
What's really hysterical about the storyline isn't just the continuously bad lines, but the fact that the writer assumes the audience is so STUPID, that they would believe that Picard and his clone Shinzon would be like "The Corsican Brothers".. feeling each others thoughts, etc. They really think the audience doesn't understand that clones are like twins; they are individuals just like any two people. It's just so achingly awful.
However, maybe their target audience really IS that stupid. They've managed to carry this bland, colorless, passionless version of a once truly great franchise for quite some time now, so they must have learned not to OVERestimate the intelligence of its viewers. Of course, one would think the fact that the Trek franchise has lost 70% of its audience would force people like Berman to learn. Enterprise was promised to be something different, and it was given a chance, then it turned out to be the same old Berman mess with a different paint job, and it wound up losing 58% of its audience. All that's left are a few that keep hoping it'll improve, people who think TOS was just about foam rocks, or people will watch anything associated with "Star Trek".
Ah, well. At least this is the last TNG film. Wait till you see the last few scenes in Nemesis... cornball to the very end. -
It had better be a (relatively) cheese free zone, though Roddenbury isn't still around with his sodding whales so it won't be that bad. At least if this is the last film we'll never see the cast old enough to run around in corsets. Hmmm....fatboy Data- now that would have been funny.
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Last NG film? Umm...yeah. Like Spock was really, truly dead at the end of "Khan." Until they offered him a boatload of money and some creative control and he turned up in all of the rest, plus the ST:TNG TV series. By Jebus, I don't doubt he'll turn up on Count Backula's show, either.
It's all about the Benjamins, kids.
Me? I'm still waiting for the sequel to "Buckaroo Banzai." -
..........."once upon a time, it was cool to be a trekkie.." Ah, CaptT, you slay me.....
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...but that is such an obvious fake. I doubt it's even a plant, just some kid that want's to get his review posted. A friend of his who works at Paramount lent him a roughcut? Oh please. who's he trying to kid. Rough cut's aren't like porno's. You can't just pass them around under the table like that. I'm surprised this was even posted.
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eh maybe not.
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I have been a trekker longer than some of you have been alive. I admit that Berman has allowed the franchise to sink to pitiful and pathetic levels (Insurrection and the Unfortunate Enterprise)But why does the community continually display the utter rejection of DS9? WAKE UP PEOPLE and watch the show. The reason people have such disdain is because they NEVER WATCHED IT! Of all the incarnations of TREK, DS9 was the most human, best written and definately most watchable of the entire collection. You want Deep Space battles between massive warfleets? you got it. You want mysticism and philosophy? you got it. You want interesting characters? (See Odo, Quark, Garak and any character played by JEFFREY COMBS) You got it. You want great villians, think DOMINION. Much better than the Borg.
Deep Space Nine defined the Klingons and Cardassians. We learned more about them here than in any one of the other series. DS9 advanced the mythos and gave depth to what were shadows and smoke. DS9 defined and developed the Ferengi, finally explaining thier culture which is something that TNG never did, instead relegating them to comic relief villian status.
Now admittedly, the first 2 seasons were slow in development. But if you go back and look at ST:TNG from the beginning you also see some of the squeakiness in that construction too. But DS9 after WORF arrived? Stellar, absolutely gripping television. I say without reservation that DS9 was and is the Best TREK ever and If the quality of writing of that show were apparent in the newer incarnations ST would return to the primacy which it deserves. And Nemesis? I will reserve judgement until I see it. Besides just about anything will be better than that steaming pile of Buffalo feces, INSURRECTION. -
...to know that this "review" was a plant. "I guess I have geek spelled all me!"... Oh please!
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I thought real Star Trek die-hards preferred the term "Trekkers" over "Trekkies".
I loved that Shriekback song!!! Maybe they could throw in a nightclub scene where the Crew get freaky to that tune.
And for the record, the full title of Star Trek 9 was ............Well Crap, now even I can't remember! -
It was Insurrection!
Now that one really played out like an extended television episode. -
why am I the only one who likes ST:TNG better then all the others? It had originality from the original, interesting and unique characters, and gave us a message for nearly every episode just like the original.. DS9 and Voyager were fine.. but they just didn't interest me like ST:TNG, character design was not as good and they were too repetitive.. Generations is looking good though, finding the time to watch it is something else entirely.
Will I go see the new ST movie.. not in the theature.. but I will prolly end up owning it on DVD! -
What the frell is that supposed to mean? Now I'm so confused I'm not even vaguely curious anymore. But seriously...I still have reservations about this new Trek film. First Contact had some really stupid humor, and it didn't deal with some of the moral questions thoroughly and forthrightly, but it kicked ass with the battle between Federation and Borg. ****** As for Nemesis, even if they dispensed with some of the bad jokes, did they throw out some of the BAD plot devices, such as that gimmick with Data and his beaming over to save Picard (can't remember the exact details, but I know it sounded really, really stupid.) Alas, they probably kept that in. ****** "Oh bother," said Pooh. "Now I'll have to go to Hollywood and kill Brannon Braga. Well, it's not as if this wasn't a long time coming."
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Jun 20, 2002 11:40:51 AM CDT
During a comma, during a pause, during a lull, during a timeout,
by christopher3
Since when was it ever cool to be a Trekkie?
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I agree that TNG was an excellent series. It set the stage for some great things to come and dragged television into the 21st century. I watched it like it was religion. But by going away from Gene Roddenberry's prohibitions on conflict between humans DS9 was free to explore the human condition more. I do believe that this "review" is from some gloryhound looking for recognition. "Rough Cut? " Please! I barely even believed it when Harry got to see the rough cut of AOTC. And some geeky fanboy gets to see a rough of NEMESIS? To say that it strains credibility is like saying that Harry's beltline isn't tight.
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Sorry, but after all the negativ script reviews and my own humble impressions of that other draft, I think this is a bit too enthusiastic and too clumsy to be believable.
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...I can't believe you just dropped some Shriekback on our talkbackin' asses. I knew what you were up to as soon as I saw your subject line, and I was terrified. "Big Black Nemesis" indeed. Y'know, come to think of it, a lot of these TB's end up more like a shriekback than a talkback...
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Jun 20, 2002 12:05:02 PM CDT
And who knows, just what other adventures this wacky crew will h
by bigw
I liked First Contact, and I'm deeply concerned that somebody who liked AI and thought DS9 was the best Trek series of all time is commending this film.
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If they used any element of that script, it will blow. It's the same crap Berman and Braga shove every 3 years. This smells like a plant too. The horrible jokes weren't the only problem in Nemesis, the derivative bullshit plot was the main problem. Mark my words come November.
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This guy, this reviewer here, I wouldn't trust him at all. He thinks TWOK's finale is lame? Sorry if there weren't enough explosions, laser brain, but FUCKING SPOCK DIES! And upon seeing your viewing prefrences, it's easy to see that you probably got your first pubes around 1998, if at all. You see, at the time, much to Bill Shatner's chagrin, Spock WAS the franchise. SPOCKIMANIA! I GROCK SPOCK! MR/ SPOCK FOR PRESIDENT! Anyone 'round in the 1970's is bound to be familiar with one of those slogans. So I find your opinion to not mesh with my own. I have a sinking feeling that this is going to be a steaming pile of twice-baked shit. Bad bad bad. I think I'm going to watch my "Babe: Pig in the City" tape and have a bourbon. Ezra Brooks 90 proof over ice with a glass of water to chase it down. Ahhhhh!
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It would seem our reviewer is from the Mirror/Mirror Universe, where Spock has a goatee, the Federation is evil, and it was once cool to be a trekkie.
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Jun 20, 2002 12:59:19 PM CDT
AOTC rules! Why a clone army could easily bring order to the St
by screamingpenis
How many clone troopers would it take to defeat the Enterprise? Not too many. That is why AOTC rulez and trekkies are lame. Clone troopers could also easily defeat a hobbit army. When fully armed and operational, they will control all.
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PLEASE MAKE BB II:AoTP. You could make the badguy be the bad guy from Howard the Duck. (The principal from Ferris Bueler's Day Off).
As the love interest use three chicks (charlie's angel ripoffs that keep getting in trouble)... Jennifer Love Hewitt, Jamie Presley, and Mena Suvari.
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Ain't true where I watch TV. I mean, casual viewers who'll watch any old crap like Andromeda will quite happily watch an episode of Voyager and think it's the best thing since Sapphire and Steel, but everyone I know who's actually watches Trek in any quantity places DS9 in a higher league. And for many reasons, the main one being simply that DS9 managed to shrink their reset button and run major arcs involving, for instance, the Dominion War. You could actually get interested in DS9 because the characters would end up in different places after an arc, unlike most of the other series in which you can't tell series one from series three hundred and twelve. And the last episode of DS9 actually had its cast going off to different things - Sisko transcending, Word going off to be ambassador, Garak finally returning to a home in ruins, Odo returning to the Great Link. And don't even start on "well, Voyager got home, waaah." Just don't. Rant over.
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If there's one noticable feature of the new Star Wars movies, it's that they borrow heavily from Star Trek. This is one of the reasons I hated TPM and AOTC so much. Now, I like Star Trek, but it has no place in a Star Wars movie! All the spaceship interiors are very Star Trek influenced - from that plastic, rounded-edge look to the animated computer read-outs in the cockpits - pure Next-Gen Trek. And then of course, there's the midi-chlorians - a Star Trek-type idea if ever I heard one: a scientific explanation for The Force! D'oh! And even worse is that old standard Trek plot device of having the characters' spaceship break down and need repairs on some desolate planet - D'oh! It was getting to be lame in Trek and it's twice as lame in TPM. They should have had Scotty on board Portman's ship to cook up some solution involving channelling the midi-chlorians through the hyperdrive flux capacitor. D'oh! D'oh!
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Now they're making a movie out of it?
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Jun 20, 2002 2:20:23 PM CDT
So let me get this straight: they have a movie about Romulans...
by spacephil
When the hell are they going to resolve that plot line ? I mean, Leonard Nimoy isn't getting any younger -- are they just going to let one of the best-known characters in scifi to ever exist die offscreen ?! Christ. Get some balls, Paramount.
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Do any DS9 episodes come anywhere close to "Best of Both Worlds", "Yesterday's Enterprise", or even "The Inner Light"? DS9 couldn't tell a stand alone story for shit. It was only until they added the Dominion plot and added the action element that anyone seems to like it, which I always thought was a cop out. They basically ditched interesting stories like the Cardassian-Bajor conflict and the Maquis storyline in favor of it. If I want to see space battles, I'll watch Star Wars. Now the last season or two was kinda interesting because the serialized nature of the show was something they'd never done before. And TNG definitely went out with a whimper that last season. But I'll take those great stand alone episodes over one war plot anyday.
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Do you think B&B could rip off Star wars any more than they already have? First they have a "Prequel" TV series and now a Picard Clone Villian with ROTJ style ending.
B&B don't have a creative bone in their Studio Sellout bodies. They just want to hire Big Boobed Women and give them big roles in exchange for sex. Go make Baywatch In Space assholes! Quit ripping off Star Wars and fucking up Star Trek. -
Jun 20, 2002 2:40:45 PM CDT
Kirk &co. are the #3 best Trek show??? Executive Decision was no
by tarl_cabot
This guy doesn't know shite about good Trek. DS9 was crap. The new show is pretty damn good though. The whole STNG cast is gettin mighty old! Worf is a pussy. He is always getting his ass kicked. Ryker is inexplicably still not a captain: why? he wants the Enterprise? That ship is a fecking lemon!
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It's amazing how some folks who consider their opinions worthy of broadcast can't even learn to SPELL THE NAMES.
Ahem...
For the record, it's not "Ryker," it's "Riker." It was only plastered up on the screen for seven freakin' seasons, you morons.
Sorry, had to vent.
I'm not saying this as a Trek die-hard...there's plenty of bad, bad Trek out there (ST5, Insurrection, most of Voyager, some of all the other series).
But really, how seriously would we take someone's opinions on, say, Star Wars if people kept referring to "Darth Vadir?"
That's my piece. Flame away. -
Jun 20, 2002 3:06:43 PM CDT
BLASPHEMERS! Star Trek is the sci-fi equivalent of Shakespeare!
by moderator
Now that I've let that out of my system, let me say that Star Trek: First Contact was the best ST film ever, not to mention one of the finest sci-fi films of all time. Star Trek practically gave birth to intelligent TV sci-fi, without it there would not have been Battlestar Galactica, and therefore there would never have been Star Wars. You little ingrates owe ST a LOT more respect than it is usually attributed.
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Ugh.... people are idiots.
>>Do any DS9 episodes come anywhere close to "Best of Both Worlds", "Yesterday's Enterprise", or even "The Inner Light"? DS9 couldn't tell a stand alone story for shit.
Sooo... then the most critically aclaimed Trek episode ever, the Pasenger (DS9), does not count then? Read a bit before posting sometime.
DS9 is renown for it's writing, even more so than any other incarnation of Trek. Those who don't like this fact just have to deal with it. TNG was great and was the highest rated syndicated show of all time (until Baywatch). No other Trek series has hit those numbers, but they have gained more praise than this show for development. DS9 has gained more praise for writing and Voyager (aka Trek lite) has gained more praise for special effects.
Do some research and you will see that from a critical standpoint DS9 is regarded as the best Trek production so far. If your tastes do not agree with that, sorry. :)
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I gotta great idea! I think they should make a movie that has the enterprise go through a time space thing and they come out on Tattoine and Data falls in the sarlacc pit but gets out and pulls Boba Fett out with him. Then Riker gets a light saber. He goes with Luke and lives on Dagobah and learns the force. Then Riker has a big fight with Boba Fett later. Data teams up with R2 and 3po and they buy the Millennium Falcon from Han and start a smuggling business with Lando. JAr JAr and Worf's kid Alexander go to Naboo and die at the hands of a new Sith lord named Darth Walrus Man. Then Picard and LaForge face off with Walrus Man and almost die, but Masters Riker and Skywalker save em. The enterprise blows up at the end. Whaddya think?
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I think Worf and Troi should run off and get married in the first part and then not be in the movie any more. Also, Han and Leia have a kid. Their kid will be powerful in the force and grow up to be the bad guy in the next sequel. Chewbacca becomes a good buddy with Neelix (who just happened to be on the Enterprise). They build a new ship that looks like a cross between the Falcon and Voyager.
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Jun 20, 2002 3:42:03 PM CDT
Rich Palpitine or however you spell your user ID: I never gave
by tarl_cabot
Riker is not the icon that Darth Vader is anyway so lame analogy!This is not a spelling B and talk backs don't have a spell check so don't be so anal! Sheeesh! It's the ideas and debating of opinions that makes talkbacks fun-it's not about the opportunity to read an A+ English paper...
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every trek talkback eventually becomes a war with who loves ds9 and who hates it. Can't we all just get along? As trek lovers we should all just get together and have one big intergalactic hug. um, well..except you voyager fans..you guys can go down the hall hang out with the fans of Farscape.
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I've watched every episode of every trek series. (Sadly, this may be why I am still single) I love TOS and TNG but I have to say the best of all the series is truly DS9. It was rich with character and complex plots that evolved over time. You had to watch it regularly because the plots were so intricate, but if you did, you got it. but hey, to each his own. of all the trek series and actually of all tv shows aside from Twin Peaks, I miss DS9 the most.
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Jun 20, 2002 4:52:08 PM CDT
Harry, what the hell? DS9 was the best Trek series. Did you ev
by brattain
Yea, TOS rules the universe. I'm 33 so I know the devoted love some hardcore fans have for it. But, honestly, DS9 was the Trek that really impressed me. Obviously, the bragaberman crapfest of VGR and ENT is beyond shit, but DS9 should not be lumped into that mess. I know very few people who actually watched the entire show, beginning to end, that don't at least respect it. The only people who seem to hate DS9 are the teenage boys Braga caters to, hardcore TOS fans, and those who never watched the show but just bash it anyway. Other than ENT, CptTrekkie had a pretty damn good list of favorites. DS9 belonged on that list along with Raiders and Empire. Now, I just hope he is right about NEM. The Next Gen movies have been awful, especially the wretched Insurrection. I loved Rick Berman's quote before INS came out. "You can't out Borg the Borg." Jeez, Rick, why even bother, then? He had the nerve to think he made the best possible action Trek film with First Contact, so they weren't even going to try with INS. That movie was a lazy embarrasment. I hope he had a different attitude going into this one.
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You're so right, Tarl. I read the talkbacks so that I can peruse the exquisitely rendered thoughts of sophisticated posters like you. I think your most trenchant insight was "Worf is a pussy." Wow. I bow to your superior analytical skills.
P.S. Ryker sux, Pikarrde sux, Kurk rulz dood! -
How Star Trek talkbacks are soooooooo much smaller than Star Wars talkback. First Contact was just passable entertainment, but everything else from Star Trek is just boring. Even TPM is a hundred times better than anything thats had the Star Trek label so far. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I ain't going to see no Trek film in the cinema. Never have, never will.
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Jun 20, 2002 5:06:52 PM CDT
Wil Wheaton cameo still in? DS9 was the best startrek also
by thematarife
The order of goodness in startrek series (with some added comparison for voyager) is
Ds9>Tng>Ent>Tos>Tas>Scat Porn>Voyager. Yeah, Voyager really is that bad. I hope the Wil Wheaton cameo is still in. -
...are some scaaaaaaary shit, man. But I guess it's why I love this site - sheer, unadulterated geek freedom. Beautiful, I tell ya. Beautiful. I suppose it's no worse than my obsessions with comic movies. Well, I apologize for interrupting with this little bit of non-tangential irrelevant crap-o-la.
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I can honestly say that, until today, I haven't met or heard from anybody that even likes DS9, let alone thinks it is better than Next Generation or the Original Star Trek series. Maybe you guys can clarify this: do you mean you think it is BETTER than TNG, or that you liked it more? There's a big difference. You know, it's OK to like things are are low quality, you don't have to defend every show you watch as if it is some work of art. For example: for some reason, I get a kick out of DragonBall Z (much to the dismay of my girlfriend). I would never pretend I thought it was any good, in fact, I realize it is terrible all around: dumb stories, poor animation, takes forever for anything to happen, however, I find it strangely compelling...So I guess my question is: is the case with you DS9 lovers, do you just prefer DS9, or do you really think it was an overall better quality show than every other series?
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Jun 20, 2002 5:33:37 PM CDT
brattain: PS - I watched most of the DS9 episodes, and yes, I th
by bigw
I'm not a teenager or a hardcore TOS fan either. I liked TOS, and really enjoyed most of TNG. I've watched most of DS9 because it used to be on late night TV when I got home from hockey, and I couldn't fall asleep until I ate something and got the adrenalyne out of my system, and it was DS9 or infomercials.
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Jun 20, 2002 5:52:20 PM CDT
Only good Star Trek film made after '91 was Galaxy Quest....
by togmeister
Generations and Insurrection sucked out right, First Contact had some nice ideas and pacey direction but still came off looking cheap. Strangely, though, i actually have no small amount of faith in this one. Getting outsiders such as Baird and Logan involved is a very smart (desperate?)move, and should rescue Trek from it's own inwardness.
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Jun 20, 2002 6:41:05 PM CDT
I know this is off subject but- GEORGE LUCAS SHOULD NOT DIRECT E
by blue devil
Upon second viewing of Ep.II, I was shocked by how mediocre Lucas directed the film. There are two basic styles: high action and static. If you notice, whenever any of the characters speak, they are always static shots. The beginning sequence in the council chamber, anything with Obi-Wan and Anakin, the terrible sequence in the ship where Amidala does everything from one control panel before leaving for Geonosis. No one ever gets up and moves. There are no dynamics to the scene. A major cause of this is the writing might I add. Then, the high action sequences. These are generally high action because they are all CGI. Basically, Lucas could sit on his rear, have an actor in front of a green screen, and have his artists create everything in post. I agree with the Wall Street Journal (I believe it was him) writer who stated that Lucas is what's killing the prequels. He's no longer young and hungry, he doesn't have to bust his ass- and you know what- he doesn't!!! That's why the film is so uneven. It goes from boring to action and back. How can anyone get into a film like that?
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When the hell wasn't it preachy, except for DS9? The white/black faced guys and space hippies of the old series, the platitudes about a galaxy without money, religion or personal problems of any kind (with no explanation on how it got there) in TNG, the sand dwelling terrorists in Enterprise and I didn't watch much Voyager but I'm sure there were important life lessons in that as well. All I hear is about how clever they were for taking real life situations and making them sci-fi. It isn't clever. It all has the subtlety of a Paul Verhoven movie. At least DS9 was marginally realistic in its characters and situations. And Blue Devil, shut the fuck up about Star Wars already. The children who frequent this site don't like Star Wars. We get it.
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How can you say that TPM - TPM of all movies - is BETTER than Star Trek?????? Especially when it owes its very existence to ST (read my above post for details)!! TPM is like a very very poor Trek episode. It's embarrassingly bad. The plot is sub-Shatner Trek and I choose my words with care. As for AOTC.......shudder!
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has become in recent years with Voyager and Enterprises generic stories and writing, as a Big Trek fans since childhood, I really want this to be a great movie. Really!
Does it have a chance when it is being released though?
Right around the time of the next Harry Potter and the Two Towers?
Trek has an audience out there but those movies are gonna kill its chances from being a Huge Blockbuster. Too much saturation. -
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was set before Raiders of the Lost Ark; doesn't that make it a prequel?
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Then everyone will see how "good" this shit show really is, I guarantee it won't be more than 2 weeks in when the ratings tank worse than the week 6 box office on Attack of the Clones (that in the trade is what we call a bank shot, two for the price of one). Yeah sure, DS9 is often "renown" for its writing, most often by people who are "renown" for sub-literate grammar and spelling best utilized in shitty fanfic and pinheaded talkback posts in forums like this. To paraphrase the late great Mr. Lennon: DS9 will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue the point, I'm right and I will be proven right. (And please note that at least when I plagiarize someone else's riff, I manage to acknowledge my source. Piller who??)
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I agree with the poster who said that the recent Star Wars trilogy has turned into movies for kiddies. All effects, dumb dialogue and bad storytelling.//
The last Trek movie was much the same...Boob jokes, zit jokes and a joy stick on the bridge. Need I say more? Why are studios targeting these movies to little kids werent around during the early years of it's popularity????//
These writers need to watch some real gritty sci fi stuff like Farscape.//
Now thats real good Sci fi that kicks the above mentioned asses.
Characters actuall evolve and develop on that show.
Do your homework boys!
A whinny Troi in the next one? Oh no. Brings back memories of her first season on TNG. "I feel Deep sorrrroowwww". -
I am always surprised when fans talk about KHAN and it seems to be about the space battle that takes place toward the end of the movie. To me, THE WRATH OF KHAN was about more than a "space battle". To me it was about theme and subtext...about "Life, Death and Mortality". It hurts a little when I see and hear science fiction fans still hung up on FX and CGI. When I think of great scenes in KHAN, I think of the close-up where we see Kirk's glasses broken; the close-up of Khan's books on his bookshelf where we see the books, MOBY DICK and PARADISE LOST; the scene where McCoy gives Kirk Romulan ale to lift his spirits and glasses to see his life in "better focus" and also so Kirk can better read the birthday gift from Spock: the book, A TALE OF TWO CITIES, about a man who SACRIFICES himself for another; the scene where Kirk tells his son, "I know nothing"; or how the theme of life and death are intertwined in the Genesis Device, a device that bring "life to dead planets", or the Kobayashi Maru test, that judges how cadets handle "life and death" situations; and of course the quote from, A TALE OF TWO CITIES at the end of the movie. These are the things that will make NEMESIS equal or surpass KHAN. If NEMESIS doesn't have that kind of aesthetic quality, it will NEVER equal KHAN. I contend that it is UNDERSTATEMENT that makes great art not the comic book visuals we have been getting since STAR WARS.
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If anyone is doubting the availability of rough cuts of movies, let me tell you they are common and easy to come by. I'm the lowest of the low on the ladder of the british film industry and I have seen in recent months rough cuts of Spidey, AOTC, Resident Evil and such. I've seen a little footage from nemesis, but not enough to form an opinion on.
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Sure, remember, the curse of Star Trek--even episodes are good, odd episodes are bad. 2, 4, 6, 8, all good (First Contact being my favorite of them all). Insurrection? I don't even remember the movie! How sad is that? I forgot it even existed! I'm almost glad I came here, or I might have thought this movie was the 9th film in the series. Anyway, what they really need to do is start killing off the characters. Throw us off guard and finish the Next Generation series... it's pretty much dead in the water. Nobody cares about it anymore. The whole Star Trek franchise is kaput. Move on. Kill Picard and Riker... just let it go. But let it go with a bang. Why can't we have the power and imagination of "Best of Both Worlds" or even the series finale (which had a surprisingly intelligent conclusion). Action + intelligence = good movie. Oh fuck it, just let me write the next damn movie.
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TNG is hands down best out of all of em.... Now don't get me wrong, DS9 was very good indeed.. but never better than TNG.. the only reason half these people say that DS9 is better than TNG is because they had a massive war that TNG never had... I mean the whole dominion war was a complete cop out to save the show.. and look at the series finale too.. pure cop out.. oh yeah.. the series is finished lets end the war in one episode... yeah that's "real good" writing.. To be fair, in terms of character development, DS9 was more ranged and better developed than TNG, in TNG besides Picard or Data.. everyone else was pretty much the exact same character they were in season 1.. TNG was a thinking man's Trek... the last seasons of DS9 were an action cop out.. Just like how Voyager milked the borg for everything it's worth to save the show.. but that's a different topic completely..
So in order: TNG, DS9, Ent(at least so far from what I'm seeing), TOS, & Voy..
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Hey, each person has their own opinion about which Trek show they like. Some grew up with TOS, and some like me grew up with TNG, DS9, Voy, and Enterprise. I am 25 years old and nothing stands in my way. Not even some remarks I find here at AICN. I have my interests in entertainment, and you people have yours. We all see what we want to see, whether it be Farscape, B5, LOTR, Stargate SG1, The X-Files, SW, or STrek. This is a definate. We go see movies no matter what. We watch television no matter what. It's funny that, in these forums, people talk about the same things over and over and over. Star Wars this, and Star Trek that. LOTR this, and Spider Man that. Arguments fly around all the time. It's obviously human nature to talk and argue about things. ---Ok, let me add my 2cents about DS9--->>>>DS9 is the best Trek show, but by a narrow margin. TNG is my second favorite. But DS9 comes with awesome qualities, like expansive character development and history, story arcs that span seasons, alien development, and space battle action galore. Sure, DS9 is a space station. But it was much more than that. It was a small city right next to a major crossroad in the Alpha quadrant. This small city was dark and gritty. It was alien, and not Federation. All of the major alien classes were on the show, from the Borg to the Romulans. During the third season a ship was added to help the crew expand its exploration. Someone mentioned the whole Dominion War thing as a cop-out due to poor writing. How shallow can this talkbacker be? This war was very expansive and devastating. It also created and expanded on characters/aliens I love watching, including Garak, Damar, Dukat(the bloody Cardis), the changlings, the Vorta, and the Jem'Hedar. I also loved the growth of the main characters. Cheif O'Brien was my favorite Irishman who fixed stuff. Sisko is my favorite captain who barked orders. Kira is my...favorite Bajoran redhead (I just love her tight new uniform in the later episodes). Garak was a deceitful and insidious (yet innocent) instigator. Quark was an innocent criminal. There were many wars that created a lot of conflict. The Klingon/Cardi war. The Dominion War. The Federation/Klingon skirmish. The reconciliations that came after these dreadful yet deep story lines were satisfying. The series finale was very well done, and it really gave me a hunger for a continuation. Right now I am enjoying reruns at midnight. All I can say is that I like watching DS9 for it's stories, characters, and the meanings that come from them. _____---KNEEL---_____
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I've been a Star Trek fan for almost my whole life. I've seen every Trek film at least three times, and bought almost every single one of them on Widescreen VHS before DVD's were available. Preference wise, I believe all Star Trek movies have their advantages and disadvatages. TMP was a good sci-fi movie, although not really a Star Trek movie. TWOK, TSFS, and TVH are the Holy Trilogy of Trek, each one being a great film. I don't buy into the idea that all the odd number films suck, because I love Star Trek 3. ST5 never happened. ST6 was just a 2 hour commericial for TNG. ST: Generations was a waste of potential, full of plot holes and silly moments (I'll never forget a Trek convention I went to where Michael Dorn catalogued all the plot hole in the movie for us...he was quite funny) although a blast to watch in the theater. ST: First Contact was a good action movie, that hit all the right places and was fun to watch. ST: Insurrection was an enjoyable movie, but had no real depth or point to it. The best in order are: 2, 4, 3, FC, TMP (I really like the new director's cut), 6, Insurrection, Generations, and lastly 5.
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I came up with a perfect send-off for every facet of the current TNG/DS9/Voyager mythos on the FIRST post regarding this movie over a year ago. I just don't have the energy to go find it or rehash it. But then, I bet half this site could have come up with better films than Generations or Insurrection. That's not sarcasm either.
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Jun 21, 2002 4:53:26 AM CDT
Harry... DS9 was better than the old series. nuff said!!
by theginger twit
Enterprise... now that sucks, but i say that without seeing more than 5 episodes. As for trek 10. I read the script. I still think Berman is fucking the franchise on purpose.
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Jun 21, 2002 7:03:44 AM CDT
"I agree with the poster who said that the recent Star Wars tril
by eiff
Really, like no shit. Star Wars has always been for kids. When did you first enjoy Star Wars? When you were a kid. They just hit the right note for adults too. PORGY, you ignorant twat. TPM is nothing like Star Trek. Star Trek is the cheapest, most geek ridden thing I've seen. I'm not obsessive about Star Wars. I like LOTR, Spider-Man and many other franchises. But Star Trek is just not much fun. I give it a chance, but it sucks every time. My cousin likes Star Trek, infact he is a fanatic, but he spends most of his time in his bedroom and his parents have caught him jerking off multiple times. Doesn't that say something for Trekkies.
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DS9 is better than the other series because it was more realistic in its portrayal of humanity. It broke the moronic rules that Roddenberry set for trek, that humans would somehow turn into this super race of perfectly moral beings in the span of 200 years. There was actual character developmenment and conflict between characters because everyone wasn't the PC pussies of TNG. I liked TNG but it got pretty damned preachy at times. That's why DS9 was better, not because of the war storyline. Although at made it better because there was an actual story arc. One episode flowed into and affected the other. Each episode mattered. That's why it won't do as well on TNN, because people will actually have to follow it and think. As for Star Wars, AOTC had more plot intricacies than all the Trek films put together. Just because they could afford aliens that were more than regular humans with nose ridges and sets that were more than hotel rooms with weird sculptures doesn't mean it was any less deeper than Trek.
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I've been reading this column since I my first "stop DS9 dissin" post earlier this week. And the arguement that keeps coming back to me is DS9 had no stand alone episodes that compare to "The Inner Light" or any of the other TNG episodes. Again let me restate I am a Star Trek FAN. I have a soft spot in my heart for every incarnation of the series because it IS Star Trek. Anyone who says that "I HATE _____(fill in the blank DS9, TNG, Voyager, ENT) should turn in their rubber ears at the door on the way out. And don't let it hit ya where the good lord split ya.
But back to the point there are several DS9 episodes that stand out as GOOD STAR TREK and even more importanly GOOD SCIENCE FICTION. I say this again, with feeling, If you did not watch DS9 you are missing some GREAT Star Trek. If you got disconnected after the admittedly slow first 2 seasons and then tried to dive back in, you probably had a hard time getting plugged back in and just didn't GET IT. Allow me to guide you to some of the best that DS9 has to offer. Look for these episodes.
The Jem'hadar, Prophet Motive, The Die is cast, Starship Down, Little Green Men, Son's of Mogh, Looking for par'Mach in all the wrong places, Trials and Tribble-ations, In purgatorys shadow, Call to arms (look at the FLEET for gods sake!) Sacrifice of Angels and Way of the Warrior. I can't wait for DS9 to join the lineup on TNN, and for the moron who said that RATINGS would affect DS9's run on TNN since when has Ratings had SHIT to do with a Star Trek Series?
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...or maybe it doesn't. I've watched these Talk Back's for a long time without posting anything, but since DS9 has come up so frequently here, I might as well say something. Warped, I am with you 100% - I like all Trek simply because it's Trek. Just like numerous SW fans like aLL the films just because they are SW films. In fact, I loved all the SW movies, and I can't wait for Ep3.
I don't get why these discussions always deteriorate into chest thumping, name calling playground scuffles. I've seen plenty of intelligent debates about similar topics elsewhere. I find it hard to believe there are so few people that visit this site who actually have something intelligent to contribute. Lots of people talk and talk, but they don't say anything.
I'm cautiously optimistic about Nemesis - this is coming from die-hard Trek fan who revels in his status as a geek. I've got way too many episodes of Trek on tape (70 tapes was my last count; six hours each) and I own the box set of TNG season 1 (and the others as they are released). Yes - this is no doubt pathetic by many estimations. I don't care, though. I enjoy the show. And I enjoy Star Wars. Is it heresy to love them both? Since John Logan penned the script and also the script of my all time favorite movie (Gladiator) I am hopeful. Bringing two fresh faces into the franchise may "save it" in the public eye, though in the eyes of its fans it doesn't need saving. I admit - we need some better quality Trek. This film might just be it. I pay no heed to the early draft of the script. I await the finished product before I'll make a call.
As for TV...DS9 was the most intelligent, thoughtful, 'real' series and remains my favorite. Warped, there is one episode in my mind that stands out as a contender for The Inner Light...The Visitor. Wouldn't you agree? DS9 was not for everyone, but for most people willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt, it paid off. You don't "have" to be on a starship exploring space to have good Trek. DS9 proved this to be true, much like Voyager proved that even a ship exploring space can equal not-so-good Trek.
In the end, none of this is definitive, it's just about your choice. Frankly, I don't care who does and doesn't agree with me. If the opinion of my wife (who strongly dislikes Trek) doesn't rattle me, what makes you think a post from some twit filled with obsene rantings and theories about the Clone Army taking over the Star Trek universe would? The people that need to get real are the people who think their juvenile rants are the absolute by which the rest of the world should judge Trek. I certainly don't think that - I've got my prefs and I'm not out to change your mind with them. Like it or leave it, it's your call. Just quit presuming you can make that call for others. -
I am heartened to see the DS9 fans speak up. AWESOME! Of course we'll all get flamed by the SO-called TREK fans for our love and admiration for DS9 even though we've time and time praised TNG and the Original Series for their obvious merits.
Some other thoughts. Being a Trekker has NEVER been COOL. By the definition of the muscle building, car tinkering, drug addled NASCAR/WWF(E)/ loving American standard of cool. Trust me I've been razzed for being a Trekker for some 30 odd years. But I do know one thing I AM more intelligent, more willing to be independent, more willing to see beyond the mundane than the average guy who thinks that Star Trek is just big rubber ears and green painted women.
Second, Star Wars and Star Trek have nothing in common other than the fact they share the same first word. Star Trek is an Epic ever unfolding universe targeted for an adult mentality. Star Wars is a melodramatic serial Fantasy / Space Opera. NOW before you FLAME the hell out of me. I love them both. I enjoy Star Trek for making me THINK and Star Wars for making me FEEL. One is intellectual and the other is visceral. I enjoy them on the merits of what they are. I don't compare Captains or Story. I don't obsess over whether the Enterprise could take on a Super-Star Destroyer. They are two different universes and I enjoy being lured back into each of them. If you must HATE something, hate the TALIBAN. or Terrorism or the kidnapping of 13 year old girls. But don't hate TREK or WARS or try to make them compete. It's the worst example of fanboy envy to do so. -
Yep, one of those sad losers that have to trash anything they feel threatens the integrity of the lame fantasy shit known as Star Wars. Trek talkbacks are usually smaller because folks in them usually have more civilized conversations, unlike the "AOTC RULLZZZZ LOTR AND SPIDERSMIN SUCKS MY ASSS THEY NO HAVE LIGHTSABVERS IN THEM CGI YODA ROX!" shit flinging that takes place in anything Star Wars related.
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I can't argue with you on that one. Most Star Wars talkbacks are filled with Star Wars haters and protectors, but thats because it so good. I love LOTR and Spider-Man. I don't care that Spider-Man is well ahead at the box office. I don't slag Star Trek. Its just my opinion that Star Trek sucks. If you like it, what does my opinion matter. This is talkback, where we share opinions, and you flame people. Also, Star Trek will never be competition for Star Wars, only two Trek films have penetrated the $100m barrier. No Star Wars film has failed to break the $300m barrier domestic, so there really is NO COMPETITION. I don't care if you all like a show I don't. Its good. And you never know, Nemesis MIGHT change my mind. I'm always willing to give it a chance. On video unless I get a press screening in November.
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This is not 1969 anymore. If a particular Trek show had to survive strictly in a syndication market that'd be one thing (though I'll tell you, when DS9 was in reruns here it had the primo 5 pm slot for a while and was quickly replaced by more stimulating fare such as 7th Heaven then banished to a deserving death at 2 am). When only one network in the country has the right to air a program and the ratings end up taking a nosedive, you'd better believe it's not going to be on long. And no, DS9 is not going to fail on TNN because "it makes people think", it's going to fail because the audience has to stay awake to bother watching it in the first place. "Great writing and characters"? Please. Married With Children had at least 50 times better writing and outdoes that crapfest for characters by at least a parsec. Bottom line: the ratings will suck because the show sucks. It is Star Trek in name only and, notwithstanding the constant din from the ongoing DS9 cheerleading squad, it just ain't got enough without the Trek brand name to make it. Face reality, people.
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Jun 21, 2002 6:00:36 PM CDT
IF IT DON'T HAVE KIRK,SPOCK OR PICARD IT AIN'T STAR TREK
by darth voodoo
Who the hell would want to sit through a film that does not have Kirk,Spock or Picard in it? How lame is that idea of getting characters that only the real geeks know about and making a film with them in it? Who the fuck is going pay to go see a film with Janeway and Harry Kim in it. If Paramont makes a film like that it would being the final nail in the coffin of this once great series.
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Jun 21, 2002 6:06:02 PM CDT
Voy,Ds9,Ent along with Berman,Braga and the death of Kirk Killed
by darth voodoo
Does anybody really give a shit about Voy,Ds9 or Ent? Could the average person on the street even name 2 characters from any of these series? To the vast majority of people Kirk,Spock and Picard are ST not these BORING PC SHOWS like ds9,voy etc. BRING BACK KIRK GET RID OF BERMAN AND BRAGA AND THEIR BORING PC SHOWS THAT NOBODY WATCHES.
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Who the hell cares what series of Star Trek you like. We're talking movies right now anyway.
I love a good movie whether it be a Star Trek film or the new Clancy flick "Sum of all Fears" (loved it).
Star Wars fans trying to raise a storm here, listen: Attack of the Clones is an okay movie - but it is not brilliant. It has eye candy that sci-fi fans can go ga-ga over but otherwise, it just stands as better than Phantom Menace (carboard cut-out characters talking politics).
The Star Trek movies have always stood alone, you can watch any of them without seeing the previous ones to catch on to the character and the plot (even Search For Spock and Voyage Home work).
And no matter how much Shatner claims the lack of budget was what killed "Final Frontier" the dialogue and plot was cheesy and should have just been a TV episode... and a watch once one at that.
"Insurrection" was a TV episode.
I can't call it a movie... it doesn't feel like one.
But anyway, the point:
I said it about Phantom Menace and I will say it again:
"I would much rather watch a low budget film with good characterization and plot than a high budget fluff piece with cardboard cut-outs."
Nemesis is not in theaters yet, the final cut isn't done yet, so who knows if it will truly suck or not. I wish they could have given a better climax on "Generations" and kept the scene of Kirk getting shot by Sauron, but hey, I can't control those beefheads in production... yet.
I like the poster, it sounds intriguing, and I will watch the movie and review it accordingly. I will know if it is good or not when I watch the closing credits scroll up the screen.
Long live good movies whether they be Sci-Fi or Drama....
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Jun 21, 2002 7:55:13 PM CDT
Glad to see all of the recognition "Enterprise" is getting...
by swlotrst
When the newest ST series, Enterprise came out, I was almost afraid that the network producers would let it slide until they stopped showing it. But then I got a hold of myself and realized, this is ST they won't be canceling it anytime soon. But I am glad its getting all thisfan recognition. After 4 series, various movies, and other Star Trek paraphonallia, I'm happy they're stil making good quality Star Trek stuff. And, finally, there are two movies I cannot wait to see that are coming out soon. Nemesis and TTT******
~~~~~Beem me up Scotty~~~~~~~
-SwLotrSt
P.S> In reply to "This is my first AICN entry so it may be awkward" -no really.... -
Kirk, Spock, and McCoy made Star Trek great. Starbuck and Apollo made Battlestar Galactica great. Luke Skywalker and Han Solo made Star Wars great. CHARACTERS. It's all about heroes. Bob and Vincent from Black Hole. It's the total setup for a boy and his brother to play out in the playground. CHARACTERS. May Hollywood remember what made classics and do it again. FACE, MURDOCK, HANNIBAL, AND MR.T from A-Team. I could go on, but I think you get the idea (yeah, stuck in the 80's again), we love heroes (Sam Malone from Cheers, Hawkeye Pierce from MASH, etc...).
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Coming from two 'people' calling themselves ds9_sucks and DARTH VOODOO, credibility as human beings cannot be given. You guys must have grown up in the Jerry Springer generation. "If Kirk, Spock, or Picard aint in it, it isn't Trek." What the fuck does that mean? Do you like putting yourself in your own imaginary talkshows? You are stupid, plain and simple. Do you diss other Trek just because you enjoy making an ass of yourself here in the talkbacks? Married with Children has better writing than DS9? What KIND OF CRACK ARE YOU SMOKING? You must be a 11 year old who is watching Mw/C reruns living in a trailer park somewhere in southern Alabama. By the way, DS9 is the best Trek, hands down. Otherwise, you may ____---KNEEL---____ before Z0D and kiss my ass.
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Darth Voodoo - frankly, I hope the average person can't name any two characters of any Star Trek show. Enjoying Star Trek as more than a flashy sci-fi, reading the subtext, taking something away from the episodes besides an adrenaline rush from the battle scenes, is what makes the hard-core Trek fans stand apart. If random people off the street could name them, we loose a little bit of what sets us apart. I think what you and the oh-so-cleverly-named DS9_sucks are trying to say is that because YOU don't like DS9 (or any of the other post-Kirk series) then NO ONE does. That, of course, is a farce. While there are many who share your views, there are many who don't and that difference does not in any way make you (or us) superior. It's called a difference of opinion, something most cultured folk can understand and accept without getting personally offended. If anyone honestly believes they have the absolute standard by which Star Trek should be judged, he should be fed to Worf's pet Targh because he's full of shit. Darth Batty - can't argue with you. Even Phantom Menace did great at the B.O. - mainly due to the ridiculous amount of hype that it received, which, even if it WERE a better film, it could never have lived up to. However, I don't allow how much money a film has made dictate what movies I see. I doubt you do, either. And if you want to look at the broader scope of things, in marketing and merchandising, in sheer HOURS of entertainment value, I would be willing to bet the numbers are MUCH closer between Star Trek and Star Wars. Star Trek has so many hours of entertainment out there, it would be hard for SW to keep up. The Star Wars franchise is primarily in the films. Trek, on the other hand, has had 5 television shows plus soon to be ten films. But, I digress. Bubcus, you are quite right, this should be about the film and the review, not the series. Though, to all the other Niners who have posted here, thank you! It's nice to see everyone still supporting this wonderful series. As for Nemesis - I have very high hopes, but I am cautious. Unlike many people, Generations is my favorite Trek film (yikes, I am gonna get nailed for this...ha! Oh well! I'll try really hard to care. Really.) and Wrath of Khan is closely tied with Generations. I've been waiting for a Trek movie to come and replace them as my favs, but no luck. I hope Logan's revised script, coupled with a fresh director (I like Frakes, but let's face it, FC and Insurrection weren't his best directorial efforts) will make for a great Trek film. As for all this talk about it being the last TNG film (much less the last Trek film), I don't know where that came from. Paramount has admitted if it makes money, there will be more (TNG) movies. I'd like it to be the last TNG movies because it looks like it's ending with a bit of a bang. The script I read brings back the "people" on the Enterprise and blends it nicely with the action sequences (but WHY oh WHY so many bad jokes?). I suspect that Voyager will never make it on film (save for a cameo by Janeway in Nem, if it makes it in) and sadly, DS9, though ripe for a gripping motion picture, probably won't happen either. I've yet to see a Trek film without the Enterprise or her crew, so I would really expect Jon Archer's crew to be the next big screen venture. And when you think of all the crazy shit that goes on in his era, it might make for a decent movie - if the right people pen the script and they find a good director. Star Trek: Romulan Wars. Oh, I hope they find a better title....
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Jun 22, 2002 7:00:42 AM CDT
TO: akbose01 - DS9 Had the BEST standalone episodes in ALL OF TR
by zimzimma
Your post reeks of someone who has not watched 7 seasons of DS9. If you think the only thing that happened in DS9 was the Dominion War, then you obviously weren't paying attention.
" Do any DS9 episodes come anywhere close to "Best of Both Worlds", "Yesterday's Enterprise", or even "The Inner Light"? DS9 couldn't tell a stand alone story for shit "
Many of the DS9 episodes do in fact reach those heights. Here are some examples:
Far Beyond the Stars (probably the best standalone episode in all of trek), Crossover, Little Green Men, Trials and Tribble-ations, One Little Ship, The Sound of her Voice, Take me out to the Holosuite, and on and on.
There are so many more, and what makes them great is that they work standalone, and if you follow the series, they fit in with those as well.
I'm not gonna get into an arguement as to which trek is the best, but DS9 is very good at what it does, and deserves to be held up there with TOS and TNG. I think its safe to say that ENT and VOY are crap though :-)
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That's all DS9 ever was, and way deep down I think all you "DS9 = Best Trek Ever" twits know it, otherwise why would you be expending so much time and effort trying to convert us like a bunch of stupid religious fanatics. Go hang out in an airport and hand out flyers already, ya wankers. Oh, and even if I was 100% completely lacking in humanity I'd still have tons more of it than the droning cardboard cutouts that you consider characters on that lameass cure for insomnia ever did. Have a good one.
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ds9_sucks - your comments are as uninspired as your handle. Thanks for posting such deeply intellectual thoughts. I'm not trying to convert you - I don't think you've got the class to appreciate DS9, and it's funny that you think you are worth my time to try and get you to "see the light." You're obviously offended at our difference of opinion, which is a sign of your no doubt advanced maturity. It's cool though. I question why you call US fanatics when you are the one who has dedicated your handle and all of your posts in this talkback to discriminating against DS9. Which of us is the fanatic, friend? Thanks for the laugh - that's about all your posts are good for, at least for intelligent people.
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IBLIS--thanks. As for greywinds, soon as I don't have to hear that goddamn "DS9 = Best Trek Ever" mantra chanted over and over ad nauseum anymore, consider the logon ditched. It's in your hands.
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That's what "discriminating" people do. It's about actually having some standards in what one watches, listens to or reads, but it's obvious that I'm wasting my time with you in explaining it. Later man.
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It's HYPOCRISY, brain clot, not "hypocracy". It is RENOWNED FOR, not "renown for". It is LOOK AT, not "lock at", and man could I ever go on from here. I appreciate it and all if you're from overseas and don't know that "program" is the proper term in US English for a television show, but last time I checked they spoke English over in England and in many other places too. (Wanker. And no, I'm not at all averse to falling back on namecalling when it comes to a bunch of cretins like the ones I keep hearing from about this either, so you needn't bother bringing that up.) "In this context [my statement of "This is not 1969 anymore] should not be used." According to WHAT, and I'm not even going to bother getting into your subsequent confusion over "should" and "should not" either. I'm glad you appreciate that this is not the place for classroom English though, because some of us actually managed to pass that class (did really well actually, if I say so myself) and I tend to observe very little of it in venues such as this. In summation, try picking up and actually reading a book that isn't a crappy novelization or brain-dead D&D fantasy of some sort, because from where I'm sitting it's little wonder why some folks think the "writing" on that crummy show was so great, it's because they simply have no comprehension of what writing _is_ any more. Tired of this crap now, so kindly shut your overcrammed snack hole and go hail a taxi to the airport already.
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But it occurs to me that with the current climate, religious fanatics like you would be more perfect politicians than anyone else. Have a good one (napalm enema, that is).
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I just hate that mantra so damned much, and they never ever have anything viable with which to back it up either.
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Jun 22, 2002 3:04:19 PM CDT
I have seen the Truth and come into the Light - DS9 really IS th
by ds9_sucks
Yeah right. I said everything I meant and I meant everything I said. Not one damn thing to back it up with. (Yes, I know that was an incomplete sentence with a dangling participle. "To boldly go" is also a split infinitive--see you in court, chuckleheads.) Here's a good one from somebody who alleges to "respect" my opinion: "You are just not intelligent enough to appreciate DS9". Boy. There's reasoning of the non-specious variety if ever I heard it. For those of you sitting on the fence about this (or those who just don't give a crap but could use a good laugh) check this one out for a kick: go back and reread all the above posts from fans, only try substituting "God," "Yahweh" or whatever for "DS9" and one bible verse or another for episode titles. They really do end up coming off like the people who come over to your house and won't leave. "'DS9 sucks' is just a theory". Yup, got it...
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The whole "substituting God" bit _would_ kind of throw that damnable mantra out of whack some, would it not? "God is the Best Star Trek Show Ever"?? Hmmm..."Star Trek: God". I think I might actually bother watching Trek again if they came up with something as blatantly cornball as that. Even the agonizing title song for Enterprise doesn't come close (okay, I admit I was channel surfing one night and happened to stop on UPN just long enough to endure it. Oh the pain.)
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Isn't there a rule of some sort that as soon as one side of a debate compares the other side to the Nazis, the argument's over? Thanks for that goldie, my fingers were starting to twitch like a mother.
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Nothing about this lets me think he actually saw this. He's not going to be "lent" any copy of a movie that's not in its final cut. This guy's not even smart enough to say his friend arranged a screening for him or some such story. There aren't just random copies of this movie floating around and if his friend had one he's not gonna let it out of his sight. And this guy really shouldn't be taken seriously anyway if he's going to rank Deep Space Nine as a better series than the original or especially the Next Generation. I could name dozens of great and classic episodes of TNG but am struggling to recall a DS9 that I liked alot...
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It's pretty hot and miserable in my part of the country right now. But these posts have cheered me up. Thanks, DS9_Sucks. I actually don't recall ever trying to convert you to anything. In actuality, it seems that you are the one trying to cram your opinion down our throats. If you want to say you don't like the show, that's terrific. And if someone responds, take it like a man, not a five-year old. Believe me friend, I couldn't possibly care less if you (or any of the other naysayers) ever come to like the show, or Star Trek, or God, or whatever else. I've far more constructive things to do with my time than waste it trying to "convert" you or anyone else. I've got my opinions, but if you think I care what you think about them, or the show, or even what your handle is, you are giving yourself far too much credit. Naturally, I don't expect you to give two shits about my opinions either. But you spend so much time to persuade everyone the show is bad, one must wonder. Anyway, thanks for the laughs. ~~ On an unrelated topic (unrelated to our boisterously wordy friend, but related to the actual TOPIC of this post), I'm curious folks. I've been watching these boards for a year or so. It seems to me that everytime someone posts a favorable review of a movie that either Harry, Moriarty, or the general populous want to see tank, everyone screams that it's a studio plant. Not even looking at Nemesis, there's a lot of movies I've seen reviewed here that get that sort of outcry. What is it that prompts these outcries? If it's just because the review is favorable, it seems silly to assume it's a plant. But I admit, there are those who post here that are in the industry and far more capable of seeing a plant. Just curious, I guess. This has certainly been entertaining. Do all the Talk Back's get as funny as this?
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Jun 23, 2002 5:57:37 AM CDT
Good, no time travel. The forces of darkness didn't get aho
by douglasah
If Trek 10 involved time-travel, I was going to take a trip to HG Wells' grave and relieve myself all over his tombstone.
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The ones you mentioned are great movies, but I wouldn't put them above Shawshank Redemption, Tombstone, 12 Angry Men (Original), Great Escape, A Few Good Men, The Crow, Usual Suspects, Ronin... the only one I would probably put above all these is Lord of the Rings : Fellowship
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Ok I've been reading the posts over the weekend and held off on adding my comments to the mix. So here we go.
Since when is 5 pm a primo time slot for Star Trek programming? If your local station put DS9 on at that time no WONDER it wasn't watched. 5 pm can be a premium slot only If you are A) An unemployed college Student B)Generally Unemployed C)A kid. Star Trek should be watched at night preferably around 10pm when the kids are in bed. Fewer distractions
Ah, the freedom of Unemployment. But to some other matters.
As I have said before and I say it again to DS9 Sucks and I Technomage. You never watched the show. You decided somewhere after TNG went offline that you were'nt going to watch DS9, you decided NOT to give it it's due and lend an eye and ear. Once again, with feeling, ANYTHING that advances the legend of Star Trek is a good thing for those of us who are FANS. How did DS9 advance the story? Well I will put this in the form of a DS9 story challenge. I will ask some questions and see if you can come up with the answers. If you can't then it shows me that you are missing some very integral pieces of the Star Trek universe.
1)Who is Martok and how did his imprisonment affect the Klingon Empire?
2) Who betrayed the Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion and what were the consequences?
3) Who has conquered more of the Alpha Quadrant-The Dominion or the Borg?
4) What is the Mission of Section 31?
5) Who killed Gowron and what ramifacations did that hold for the Klingon Empire?
6) What is the driving force behind the Ferengi Culture?
7) What happened to The Sword of Kahless?
8) What was the final fate of the Klingon warriors KOR and KANG?
9)What was the Defiant Class starship created for?
Star Trek is a tapestry. If you even give it a chance, if you don't give it a look (and I will admit I even give Enterprise a look now and then to see If the quality is improving-I like what they are doing with the Andorians) then the picture is incomplete. I don't say you're wrong not to like DS9. I just say don't try to FORCE your opinion down the public consciousness throat by being uninformed and childish. -
Contrary to the attempts of some on here who are (incompetently) attempting to paint me as some sort of a bin Pol Pot Hitler because I insist on blowing a large hole straight through their sacred cow, I do make an effort to respect the opinions of others. I simply prefer the company of people whose opinions have some grasp on actual reality, and unlike Technomage I just can't even imagine a reality in which that godawful show could ever be good. Yes, I did occasionally give in to the urges of others to "give DS9 a chance", even some of the supposedly "good" bible verses that they're always on about, and every single time I did I came away feeling like a character from Pink Flamingos. (A movie which, incidentally, also has way better characters, writing and acting than DS9 ever did.) I respect an honest difference of opinion fine, I'm just sick of the plague of Deep Space Scientologists that materialize out of the woodwork every single damn time Star Trek gets mentioned. To blatantly steal a phrase famous to all who have ever watched Star Trek, get a life you people.....
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I may only be 16, but I have come to appreciate STTNG at the premiere Star Trek series. No, I didn't begin watching the show in syndication. Well, not TNN at least. My local FOX affiliate ran the program back in the old days "1990s." One of my friends told me about the show, and it didn't take long for me to tune in each night for a new adventure. New for me because I was 2 when the show launched in 1987. I don't have anything against STDS9 or STVOY. They both are appealing in their own way. I do not believe that I will now ever like STDS9 more that STTNG because I have been set in my ways for a decade. I do concede that my Fox channel became independent from its corporate self and launched a new channel which now hosts the WB. What does this mean? It means that STDS9 was not available in my area during the fourth and fifth seasons, and by wacky coincidence UPN stopped showing STVOY through some of it's seasons. I enjoyed "Trials and Tribulations." Who wouldn't? In televisions viewing I am a sucker for any show with guests from it's own past. Critics may say it's badly written and a ploy to bring in audiences during sweeps, but I like it. "Flashback" was an excellent episode of STVOY. This was not because of the minor development of Tuvok, but the return of Sulu. I also believe The Undiscovered Country was the best of the classic films, and "Flashback" punctuated it nicely. I did, however, find that Janeway's closing lines while they may not have been meant as an allusion to her flagrant violations of the prime directive, whenever it suited her, did seem rather hypocritical in the later seasons. BTW the closing lines as best I can remember from '96 are "The universe must have seemed a lot bigger back then, but if they were to act that way now they would be booted right out from Star Fleet." Help me out anyone. Anyway back to my original thoughts. STDS9 is preachy "At least the Borg tells you when they assimilate you." STTNG is preachy "No money, lust, or greed." STVOY is preachy "We must save this planet from its greedy rulers!" -Ferengi episode, a reference to STTNG. Though when I watch the show I don't see the preachiness. I see the acting and the plots. I decide how best I would view the situation. To me Star Trek is a weekly action adventure with a good moral ending. Not a soapbox for political, environmental, and sociological reform. Please reply with your thought on what I have said. Thanks for reading.
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