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Harry has seen the new TWO TOWERS trailer

Hey folks, Harry here... I'm not going to go into great detail here simply because there really is nothing new here. Basically this is a re-edit of footage you've already seen in the extended trailer that was tagged onto the end of FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING. In all the trailer ran right around a minute twenty seconds. I wasn't looking at my watch, but it seemed to end before it was started. But isn't that always the case with any footage seen from LORD OF THE RINGS?

There is one shot that most of you have never seen, that has Legolas at the battle of Helm's Deep sliding down a set of stairs on the back of a shield firing arrows at oncoming hordes of Orc and Uruk Hai. If memory serves, this footage was in the Cannes Reel.

The trailer is made up only of characters that were introduced to us in the first film, shows the key scenes of Gollum crawling down towards Frodo and Sam, Aragorn and Legolas standing in the lightning at Helm's Deep with those establishing shots of the massive evil arm encamped outside their walls and the trailer ends with the introduction of Gandalf the White as he first appears before Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. No Treebeard, no Eomer, no Theoden, no Wormtongue, no Arwen or Eowyn, no Faramir. And strangely, neither of the Two Towers are actually shown in the teaser if memory serves... rather odd thing to leave out, I would think.

The trailer is narrated by Cate Blanchett's Galadriel, but I didn't have my notes with me when I saw the trailer. Where did I see it? Parts Unknown. Let's just say, I haven't been in Austin all the time. Muhahahahahahaaaaa, sneaky cheeky bastard that I am. I love my New Line spies in Bangkok!!!! Just kidding... or am I?

Ultimately I couldn't help but be disappointed by the lack of new imagery. Sure many people haven't seen the TWO TOWERS footage that was shown at Cannes last year, many didn't return to FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING to see the extended TWO TOWERS trailer, so for many this will most likely be their first chance to see footage from TWO TOWERS beyond the glimpses on ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT or other such programs. Frankly though, I feel with each new step, they should be bringing us mainly new imagery. Making us hunger for more and more. Personally I just want the movie out now. It's the film I wish to be seeing this Memorial Day.

Readers Talkback
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  • May 27, 2002, 7:20 p.m. CST

    Mother's Day was two weeks ago

    by Edward Rooney

    two towers will rock

  • May 27, 2002, 7:45 p.m. CST

    But aren't the Two Towers going to be digitally removed?

    by Ernst Blofeld

    I'm sorry, it's old but it still makes me chuckle. And can anyone tell me if TTT features real dragons? You know the ones that are intelligent and can talk...

  • May 27, 2002, 7:59 p.m. CST

    Can't wait for Gollum!

    by CrapHole

    Whoo! Gollum is gonna rock! I got chills (could have been the AC) when you could see his eyes in FOTR.

  • May 27, 2002, 8:12 p.m. CST

    HA-4, you know your going to get the theatrical version of the m

    by exPFCWintergreen

    Oh well. Too bad that there is no new footage, but at least they'll put this trailer on the net in fullscrean quicktime - fuck ya!

  • May 27, 2002, 8:15 p.m. CST

    Two Towers Trailer is online

    by Moony

    While I missed the seeing the trailer in the theater, has a copy in quicktime that you can download. It appears that someone recorded it in the theater with a video camera. I saw the link under their "top 10 downloads" list.

  • May 27, 2002, 9:05 p.m. CST

    Lord Of The Ring was the best movie since Harry Potter

    by Nom_Anor

    how do you spell overrated?

  • May 27, 2002, 10:07 p.m. CST

    great but has harry seen the new x-men casting news?

    by BEARison Ford

    you'd think that'd be worthy of a headline.

  • May 28, 2002, 12:09 a.m. CST

    I'll be back after I change my shorts.

    by Cash Bailey

    There... that's better. Holy mother of God! That shot of Legolas sound just TOO BAD-ASS!! Yes, I blither like a rabid fanboy without shame. FELLOWSHIP is my favourite movie of all time, and you just KNOW that PJ has all sorts of phenomenal goodies up his sleeve for the next two.

  • May 28, 2002, 12:09 a.m. CST


    by BG

    At last a real TTT story! I'm glad to see Harry has come "back into the fold." ;-) If Harry's seen the trailer it can't be long before it's in theatres. Legolas SURFING DOWN STAIRS!! WTF!!! Right that's it! I withdraw my support for these movies! Lucas raped my childhood, Bakshi molested my boyhood, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let PJ fondle my manhood!!! ;-)

  • May 28, 2002, 12:39 a.m. CST

    Theodens poem

    by eehrbar

    "where now the horse and the rider?" 3rd page of The King of the Golden Hall in TTT. Eric

  • May 28, 2002, 12:58 a.m. CST

    The 2-disc August DVD will have a 10-minute TTT preview (this is

    by Red Giant

    They should have kept the entire speech scene with Theoden reciting it as he is dressed for battle, intercut with the scenes of Helm's Deep. Hell, they should just show the whole thing. It takes at least 20 minutes to START THE FRIGGIN MOVIE nowadays anyhow. Just cut a couple commercials and its there.

  • May 28, 2002, 2:17 a.m. CST

    Excellent Smither's...

    by Conan_the_Humble

    That's all I have to say at the moment. Cheers.

  • May 28, 2002, 2:54 a.m. CST

    Jesus Harry

    by ZombiePresley

    Just because your privilaged ass has seen the extended trailer and now complains that the new, short trailer is such of the same footage doesn't mean the rest of us will... See most of us probably haven't even seen ANY footage from TTT (It was only shown on a few selected screens in my Country, and I have to work for a living, I don't have time to drive around the country watching films, or trailers) so any footage at all will make me very very happy... Can't wait to see it... Won't bother DL the crap quality version... This is gonna rock!

  • May 28, 2002, 5:05 a.m. CST

    Does anyone know if this is a joke?

    by critical_theory

    One of the many useless petitions online asks PJ to rename TTT to something less offensive here's how it reads: To:

  • May 28, 2002, 7:11 a.m. CST

    Poor Pud

    by Demo

    Awwww, poor little darling, it must so bad to have sit through a piece of excretement like AOTC and then tell everyone you love it, so as to give some validation to your sad, pathetic little life. Face it, once AOTC came out you lost the argument once and for all. lord of the rings is twice the movie AOTC is, hell even spiderman is twice the movie AOTC. I feel your pain little buddy!

  • May 28, 2002, 7:37 a.m. CST


    by Kingasaurus

    ...the petition in question is a joke. Not to mention the lame attempts to troll. If you're going to do it, at least show some skill in the attempt. Where are the Hall-of-Fame trollers when you need them? Sheesh!

  • May 28, 2002, 7:49 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    (As someone once said in another movie). I'm at home for Legolas going all badass with shields and stuff. It's the kind of thing that would have scared me last year but I can kind of relax about now. (Waves to other TailEnders). Yay! A TB to call our own! Nice recovery on the Prince front, Elanor.

  • May 28, 2002, 8:49 a.m. CST

    Willow:The Two Towers

    by MrLimey

    I see there's still no word on Kilmer returning to the franchise! Anyhoo, we all know this is going to be a huge anti-climax after AOTC.As least the Episode 2 dvd will be out around the same time as a nice antidote to Jacksons latest borefest.

  • May 28, 2002, 8:54 a.m. CST

    New Title

    by Calastir

    I'm afraid it's not a joke. How about this for a title; "Lord of the Rings; Terrorist Attack on the World Trade Centre!!!"

  • May 28, 2002, 8:57 a.m. CST

    I saw AOTC on Saturday..........

    by peejee

    ..... and I wanna thank George Lucas. I wanna thank him for making Peter Jackson look even better for creating his masterpiece The Fellowship of the Ring. To let u know where I'm coming from I'm a total Star Wars freak. I was obsessed with it from the age of 8-15 (i'm now 20). I collected a shitload of the original Kenner toys (now sat in my attic making money) I watched and watched and watched the films and bought every book available on the subject. But doesn't it tell you something when I was there on the opening day (shit,the opening afternoon) for The Fellowhip of the Ring, having spent the last two years as a pure Tolkein fanatic, yet I was'nt really bothered when I saw AOTC. I aint gonna go off on one of those "Lord of the Rings is better than Star Wars, Lucas raped my childhood" rants coz quite frankly I don't need to as I will always have my Star Wars memories. But I got back home from AOTC and I slipped my FOTR Screening Copy into my video. It was just a superior film in every way! AOTC was very enjoyable but it was not FOTR. If Lucas honestly thinks that making a film 90% bluscreen/greenscreen work is the way forward he's seriously losing it! The Yoda/Dooku fight was embarassing. Jango Fett reminded me of the Tinman in The Wizard of Oz. The sound effects were excellent though and the visuals were stunning, but it didn't hold a match to the originals. Anyway, back to LOTR. Does anyone else think PJ should stop ebing petty and put the 3min TTT trailer preview on the net? What else is he going to do with it? FOTR has gone, or is going, out of cinemas so whats the problem? Anyone else think the extended super dooper DVD is too far away? I mean c'mon, NOVEMBER!!? Anyone else seriously suffering waiting for TTT? I know I am! Anyone think there is only so many times you can read the book (5 and counting)? Anyone else wish they had an Alien style cryo sleep chamber so they could go to sleep and wake up on Dec 19? *TUT* PJ rocks, Lucas is misguided!

  • May 28, 2002, 8:58 a.m. CST

    New Title

    by Calastir

    I'm afraid it's not a joke. How about changing the title to; "LOTR; Terrorist Attack on the World Trade Centre!!!"

  • May 28, 2002, 9:07 a.m. CST

    Pro-Two Towers Title Online Petition

    by Calastir

    Sign the Pro-Two Towers Title Online Petition!

  • May 28, 2002, 9:13 a.m. CST

    rohan anglo-saxon?

    by Windowlicker74

    Rohan as it is being portayed in the the movie is definately Scandinavian....(just look at the ornaments and the rooftops and all)

  • May 28, 2002, 9:14 a.m. CST

    Petitions Coming Out Of Everyone's Ass!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    NO!!!!!!!!! Let's NOT sign anymore petitions (not that I signed any anyway). I am anti the whole damn pressure-creative-people-with-petitions crap anyway. And besides, I reckon the TTT namechange one is simply a brilliant practical joke. And if the guy who wrote it originally did mean it, then the joke's on him for being such a Darwinian reject. There's something relentlessly whiny-armchair-fucking-film-makery about a petition. Hell, I'm not sure that most talkbackers should be allowed to vote - even the ones that legally old enough.

  • May 28, 2002, 9:19 a.m. CST

    PJ's doing it right: show as LITTLE new footage as possible

    by minderbinder

    Do we really want trailers like Lucas does that spoil all the visuals in the film? (a Yoda fighting trailer already? you *can* smell the fear) I say show as little as necessary, just keeps people hungrier for the film, I can't wait.

  • May 28, 2002, 9:27 a.m. CST


    by Halloween68

    I wish they could just show the whole extended preview as a trailer. That thing sent chills up my spine. The most powerful bit was Theoden's little speach as he was getting ready to march. Very stirring. Without that, I'm not sure what we're left with. Hopefully they'll release the whole extended preview on the internet so's folks can get a clean download through Realplayer or Quicktime. And why cut out the eye of Treebeard. That's awesome. I do want to see the footage from Cannes as well as those brilliant scenes from Helms Deep again. Hmmm. I wonder what movie this is going to appear on first. Anybody know a release date for this trailer? I didn't think they were putting one out until August.

  • May 28, 2002, 10:45 a.m. CST


    by MinasTirith

    Yes!! Can't wait!!! Saw AOTC and Spiderman last week. Spidey was just cool! Very comic book like and never thought itself bigger then what it's supposed to be. AOTC was a wreck. A train wreck. A barge hitting a bridge wreck. Terrible. Boring. Pointless. Gosh, the Magic of SW is gone, long gone. I almost feel like TPM is a better movie. In 6 months all these lovers of AOTC will come back and say it sucks. Just like the TPM, good at first, but once you think about AOTC, well, it's a pity. Still plenty of time to sign my petition to get PJ to work on EPIII. Star Wars is dead folks. It's empty heartless and next to stupid. I hear you, SW is for kids!!! So was Toy Story, Toy Story II, Iron Giant, but all those cartoons and CG had way more emotion then anything Lucas will do. SW sucks now. What a shame.

  • May 28, 2002, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Speech of Eorl? as best transcribed by me

    by IAmLegolas

    "Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountains, like wind in the meadow. The days come down in the West, behind the hills... to shadow."------ also RE: the Legolas surfing scene... it sounds cool to me. You guys wouldn't be b*tching about it if an asian actor was doing it in a HK kung fu film. Legolas as per P.J.'s vision is supposed to be assassin-like and being an elf and all (super human-like), why not have him do some fancy fightin'!!! He can tread lightly on snow, so why not on a shield movin' down some stairs to take out some Uruk-Hai/Orcs?

  • May 28, 2002, 12:17 p.m. CST

    to whomever said PJ is doing it right....

    by deftone

    right on. i'm glad there's not much "new" footage out there, because quiet frankly, when a giant new trailer comes out (later this summer? early fall?) i will be so incredibly thrilled and peeing in my pants with excitement. serious. it makes summer (which is usually my favorite time of year) so HARD to get through, but yet....oh so much fun waiting. :)

  • May 28, 2002, 1:27 p.m. CST

    No, showing more footage would be dumb as we've seen half th

    by brokentusk

    The last thing I need to see is anymore shots from 'The Two Towers', otherwise I would have seen the whole film by the time it comes out. Just because we've seen the footage before doesn't make it any less amazing. Also: Gandalf the White should not be shown in ANY trailer(s), it's supposed to be a (whoa) surprise, just like it was in the book(s). Oh well...

  • May 28, 2002, 1:52 p.m. CST

    Sign MY petition...

    by prof_frink

    It makes more sense, and is more viable than these other petions! Oh yeah - before I forget LOTR blah blah blah blah... Good lord... When will being jaded cease to be the 'in' thing... how long can one call 'angst' a career...

  • May 28, 2002, 2:45 p.m. CST


    by Orc

    I would like to say to the people who think that Star Wars is a better than LOTR. Your thoughts are not wrong but simply not intelligent enough to realise that LOTR is one of the greats of cinema that

  • May 28, 2002, 2:52 p.m. CST

    Elfkiller..shut up and hand me a towel.

    by Sadako

    Any one who favours Lucas at this point loves the cock.

  • May 28, 2002, 2:54 p.m. CST

    Mr. Orc and his 20 sided die of wisdom!

    by prof_frink

    "Your thoughts are not wrong but simply not intelligent enough to realise that LOTR is one of the greats of cinema" AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... BAH! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Mr. Orc, Thank you for pointing out my lack of intelligence, the fact that it was so glaringly obvious that a movie featuring such amazing literary devices such as 'walking', 'running', 'talking', and having the hero almost die about 39 times, was so far above my head, that there are 'dragonmasters' such as yourself to point this out to me... wow... I'm not saying LOTR sucked - but what I am saying is that it is VASTLY overrated... And please - LOTR vs. Star Wars is a ridiculous argument... why can't you people enjoy more than 1 thing... God bless America - there always has to be a #1, no room to share love... idiots...

  • May 28, 2002, 3:02 p.m. CST

    I don't care if the effects are crap anyway....

    by Praetor

    LOTR has more heart than TPM or AOTC combined. The only way the new Star Wars trilogy will stay popular is if George Lucas updates the special effects every five years. Dull exposition will remain dull exposition no matter how many CGI creations scurry about in the background. The 'contest' is over.

  • May 28, 2002, 3:07 p.m. CST

    There is no contest

    by prof_frink

    The contest is only in the heads of you uber geeks... I'm sure that Lucas and Jackson have no competition going on between them. You may return to watching your Jenna Jameson videos now...

  • May 28, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Elfkiller14 gives great head!!!!

    by gojira

  • May 28, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Elfkiller14 gives great head!!!!

    by gojira

  • May 28, 2002, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Elfkiller14 gives great head!!!!

    by gojira

    Of course the fact that I look a lot like Hayden Christensen only served to make him work all the harder to please me. I also liked the way my beer bottle was able to sit perfectly on his flat head while he went down on me.

  • May 28, 2002, 3:56 p.m. CST


    by DufusyteII

    I'm surprised they show Gandalf in the TTT trailer and in the preview that was tacked onto the end of Fellowship. Sure, readers know that Gandalf comes back, but alot of people did not read the books, and for them the re-emergence of Gandalf the White should be a surprise. I don't know why New Line is determined to plaster this Spoiler in everyone's face. The characters are surprised when Gandalf returns; why not let some of the audience be surprised as well? ******* The theatrical trailer should show some of the new characters. Otherwise many viewers (especially people who did not read the book) will say, "TTT is just the same old thing." By showing some new characters, it will let everybody know that the plot develops. I mean, it will reassure the uninformed that TTT is definitely *not* just more of the same. Imagine if TTT actually was just three more hours of the same characters. It would be pretty limiting, don't you think? Why give the impression that this is the case? ******* So basically I'm surprised what the trailer does show (Gandalf the White), and what it doesn't show (Eowyn, Theoden, Faramir...). But having Cate narrate it is definitely a stroke of genius. Good going, guys.

  • May 28, 2002, 4:04 p.m. CST

    AOTC vs. LOTR.........again

    by PervyElfFancier

    Ok, don't hate me and your probably all tired of hearin' people bitch about either how Star Wars is better than Lord Of The Rings or vise versa but I'm one of those people and I'm not sorry....ok maybe just a little. Lord Of The Rings is one of the greatest films ever made, plain and simple. I've seen AOTC and you GOTTA be kidding if you think that it has any chance agaist LOTR! It is one of the most BORING films ever made and the special effects not to mention the acting were laughable! And how can you even dream of comparing the Count Dooku vs. Yoda scene to the Gandalf vs. Saruman scene? The Star Wars scene had everyone in the cinema in hysterics and the worrying thing is that I'm not even sure it was meant to be funny! The earlier Star Wars films were watchable but this time Lucas has let fame go to his head, don't criticise PJ for trying his best to translating a book that he didn't even write. You try it and see how you do! Star Wars is a HAS BEEN! But still you aging SW freaks still flock to the cinema, in hope to recapture those childhood memories......well get a GOD DAMN LIFE! LOTR has a moral and a point, cinema is more than who can spin around the fastest while holding a lightsaber. So you Star Wars geeks, get some friggin' taste before you start judging others! If there was no Tolkien there wouldn't be a Lucas.

  • May 28, 2002, 4:10 p.m. CST

    Just thought I'd check in for the doubters

    by RulingRing

    For all those who blanketly stated months back that "You all know you're going to see (ATOC) (ACTO) (COAT) {etc} when it comes out this May!" I thought I should let you know that I managed to not see said borefest. In fact, as the news of wooden acting, rehashed souless plot, and cgi worthy of cartoon network rolled in I realized that asides from a sense of deja vu, I felt perfectly uninterested. It can be done. Easily. Don't put another dollar in the pretender's pocket. Oh, one more thing. Go see TTT this December.

  • May 28, 2002, 4:17 p.m. CST

    To paraphrase a certain mild-mannered wallbuilder

    by Pallando Blue

    Hey, who are all these assholes and what are they doing in my shiny new talkback?

  • May 28, 2002, 4:24 p.m. CST


    by Halloween68

    I was thinking the same thing until recently about only purchasing the extended version in November... It seems New Line is doing the cornhole thing and releasing totally different material for the extras in both DVD releases. So, unless you'll be happy with only half the extras, you'll probably be swaying to buying them both like I am. Damn, those money grubbing bastards. I hate caving in. But, in the end, I suppose it is only 20 bucks. Of course that ain't nothing to cough at if you're like me and just starting a career, pinching pennies where you can. I too would've preferred to have gotten the whole kit and cabootle in the four disc box set. Although, I wish that one could've come out in August as well as the other.

  • May 28, 2002, 5:10 p.m. CST

    Ah, trolls.

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Elf_shiller, wow, I guess you survived the winter somehow. I see from the strident, squealing-like-a-little-piggy tone of your posts that the dark shadows of dissappointment in love continue to dog your life. I guess Harry must *still* be playing hard to get, huh? I recommend rohypnol - swallow about six boxes of it, along with a quart of bourbon, and romantic despondency will never bother you again. Neither will anything else, so that's a plus too.

  • May 28, 2002, 5:42 p.m. CST

    SW Fanboys what's your problem??

    by MinasTirith

    Just cause AOTC got a lot of bad reviews, is rotten at, doesn't mean you can't enjoy your little movie. Kids movie at that. What a wreck ATOC was. Great Box Office though, good for Lucas, not for you though. Thanks god there is only 1 more SW movie, minus the re-edits of the SW movies and the RE-edits of the EP 1 - III. Lucas just plain can't make a movie. It's simple as that. If you say you like AOTC then you are just a fanboy who lets Lucas get away with making crap. Lucas is so lucky he made the first 3 movies and they were actually good. But his big head can't make a decent movie. 2 atrocious movies in a row. Any other director would be out of the business, fired, gone. The production company would have lost all it's money. LUCAS maybe you will die before the next one, then PJ can take over and make a decent movie.

  • May 28, 2002, 5:56 p.m. CST

    Elfkiller - I got some news for you

    by Demo

    Elfkiller You exist only to make Pud look good. You are one sad, sad, sad little man. By the way, why don't you just come out and be done with it. Your obsession with cocks and arse puts any any open, healthy homosexual to shame. Oh it must suck to be you!

  • May 28, 2002, 6:43 p.m. CST

    The Return of the Wizard

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    How very true - and anyway, since Sir Ian will doubtless be getting the billing again when the theatre posters come out, there's not a lot of reasons to conceal this. I must say, I *was* surprised when they showed him, though. Hmm. And though it means admitting that I read Dufy's post, I thought a lot of the new characters *were* in the trailer, but conceivably I could have dreamt them (and Dufy's post).

  • May 28, 2002, 7:03 p.m. CST

    for Alice

    by DufusyteII

    "The trailer is made up only of characters that were introduced to us in the first film." -Harry

  • May 28, 2002, 7:06 p.m. CST

    This will be the best Lord of the Rings movie since the last Lor

    by St.Buggering

    I'm so excited I could just go on with my life.

  • May 28, 2002, 7:28 p.m. CST

    Legolas sliding down the stairs on a shield?

    by TheDrunkenJedi

    While firing arrows at the enemy? Does anyone else think this sounds a bit, erm, strange? Maybe its just me...

  • May 28, 2002, 7:40 p.m. CST

    Elfkiller14, I weep for the crack-whore who brought your miserab

    by Silent_Boba

    for she will shed a tear or two when you finally, and hopefully soon, bring your sorry existence to an end. One who is as deeply disturbed and depressed as you can't be too far from suicide- but that's provided that one of your middle-school mates doesn't tire of your shit before that and beat your sorry ass to death. Either way, the gene pool will be a little cleaner.

  • May 28, 2002, 7:43 p.m. CST

    Elf Killer

    by BG

    When you insult one Tailender (morGoth) you insult us all. Your impotent gutter repartee and total lack of originally say more about your intellect than any insult I could post. And before you start reaching for the dictionary, let me try and put it in terms you can understand: "You is a poo poo head."

  • May 28, 2002, 8:56 p.m. CST

    TTT Moment of Awe

    by ArPharazon

    Let's try to have a civil tail-end talkback here. I saw FOTR last weekend for the last time in the theaters. Wow. It gets better every time. After seeing it a few times, I've found a few moments of cinematic perfection that leave me with a sense of awe. One is the Moria scene where Gandalf lights up the Dwarf City. The other is the Argonath -- from both the front and back. Perfect cinema there. I'm speculating on what scenes will inspire the same sense of awe in TTT. I think the Crossroads scene, with the fallen statue with the wreath of flowers for a crown, will be one moment of awe. The other will be Theoden sounding Helm's Horn and riding forth with the dawn. What other moments do you think will make this movie?

  • May 28, 2002, 9:30 p.m. CST

    do people still read any of elf_licker's posts?

    by minderbinder

    At this point they come across as so desperate and impotent - after so many people saw fellowship and loved it, you're STILL trying to convince people that it's a bad movie? Might as well hit the streets and try and convince people that nobody likes chocolate. It's still kinda amusing, like watching someone pissing into a tornado...

  • May 28, 2002, 10:13 p.m. CST

    Sigh, I wish The beatles had made a 'Lord of the Rings'

    by Billy Talent

    ...or even the Bee Gees! Can you imagine? Gandalf, as played by George Burns, could sing about "fixing a hole". And there could have been a scene of Frodo (Peter Frampton) jerking off to a hologram of Bea Arthur! And in the end the Bee Gees could have used their magical instruments in a musical duel to save Hobbit World from the evil intergalactic force known as The Jefferson Starship! Final scene: SAM: There is still one thing we need to do as soon as possible. FRODO: What's that? SAM: Fuck.

  • May 28, 2002, 10:20 p.m. CST

    AOTC Stole from LOTR!!!???

    by zamfir

    Did anyone notice how similar Anakin's "ride" on those weird looking sheep things was to Legolas's "ride" on the cave troll? A little to similar for my taste.

  • May 28, 2002, 10:47 p.m. CST


    by X-Girls

  • May 29, 2002, 12:19 a.m. CST


    by rsrobin

    You've got some serious issues with your sexuality don't you? Why else would anyone talk so obsessively about homosexuality or accuse anyone and everyone else of being a fag? See a shrink. Come out of the closet. Get your confusion about your sexuality worked out...just do it somewhere else.

  • May 29, 2002, 3:09 a.m. CST

    LOTR:FOTR was shit, but TTT will rule!

    by Lord_Soth

    It was boring, no exciting action scenes at all, crap music, too much blahblah - it works in book but not on film. But TTT has a much more film-friendly attitude. The 4 minute trailer was light years better than the whole FOTR!!!

  • May 29, 2002, 5:03 a.m. CST

    Why doesn't Mercier_LOTR come back

    by kane3212321

    I used to really enjoy his antics and stories about Lucas being schooled and Duck Tales in Space Part 2.

  • May 29, 2002, 5:03 a.m. CST

    Why doesn't Mercier_LOTR come back

    by kane3212321

    I used to really enjoy his antics and stories about Lucas being schooled and Duck Tales in Space Part 2.

  • May 29, 2002, 5:38 a.m. CST

    Pud and Elf-killer

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Guys, (I assume, though boys is probably closer to the mark...) why does this flaming interest you so much? If you hate LOTR and it's (real) fans, why come here? I did not particularly enjoy AOTC and stated as much on the AOTC TB's. Using the one username I have. Guess what, I also use my real name for my email address. If that's makes me a 'ghey', Cocksucking, fag, in 'your' opinion, so be it. 'Your' opinion doesn't bother me. I won't mention 'your' atrocious level of English, if that's what you want to call the collection words written in your posts. Are either of you still with me, or am I being a bit to cerebral here? If so, I'll try and keep my words down to one syllable, (damn, does anyone know how to say syllable in only one syllable? so that you 2 can keep up. Elf whatever and Pud, why don't you try to be critical of LOTR instead of merely profane? Fuckwits.

  • May 29, 2002, 5:58 a.m. CST

    I cant believe you people think PJ and Raimi are so great

    by EvilStar

    What has Peter Jackson done? he adapted one of the most beloved Fantasy Stories of ALL TIME! what has Sam Raimi done? he adapted one of the greatest comic characters of all time and basically just retold his origin for the 10,000th time. Now what did George Lucas do? he CREATED one of the most beloved movie francises of all time! he didnt adapt it from someone elses work, he MADE it, he made the universe you people claim he is ruining! And while I liked FOTR, there were parts that were boring as shit, I fell asleep during the really slow part at the Elf village the first two times I watched it, the third however I managed to stay awake the whole time wooo!! anyway in closing, LOTR great! Spiderman great!! AOTC? Great!! TPM?? yes, great!, bite me.

  • May 29, 2002, 6:44 a.m. CST

    Off_kilter wrestles with the love that dare not speak its name

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Yay! Apparently they are rereleasing FOTR here for the Jubilee weekend! Wheee! I'm already in withdrawal and it only left the cinemas last week. Fact: people rail on Pud, but he's actually a damn good satirist. Fact: people rail on elf_swiller, (who weally weally wuvs us, since he can't leave us alone - except when he's trolling the SW boards (!?)) but I'm not sure he's not a comedian either. In fact, if he isn't doing this as a joke, he's even funnier. My little elven love muffin, every time you post, no matter what meretricious garbage you write, you only seem, subtextually, to be saying the same thing: "Whenever I think of "The Lord of the Rings", I get all hard and want to touch myself." You know, you can admit to these urges - I'd have a bit more respect for you if you did. I won't laugh and point at you. As for the thousands of other nameless eyes watching you on the Internet, well, I can't really speak for them of course...

  • May 29, 2002, 7:02 a.m. CST

    Sorry, distracted from my point by my troll-baiting...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Yeah, General Custer, I'm with you on the Gollum nearly repenting thing. Though I do wonder if that will be in TTT, since Shelob's gotten her wicked self bumped into the next movie. Other moments to check include the huorn forest (a creepy forest that eats you - that's got to be cool), and I wonder if Aragorn's parley with the uruk-hai will get in there. The crossroads is also a great moment, as is the Window on the West. For drama, though, I'm going to go with Sam accidentally revealing that Frodo's carrying the Ring. I always remember that as a real "Oh, shit," moment from the book. Anyway... them's my thoughts.

  • May 29, 2002, 7:04 a.m. CST

    Sorry, accidentally revealing to Prince Gondor that Frodo's

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I need to get back to bed.

  • May 29, 2002, 7:57 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Yeah, I must say, I have huge love for orc dialogue (especially the orc conversations Sam overhears in the tower or Cirith Ungol). I think it is doable - if you can get it together to say "find the halflings" it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to start threatening to cut a person to quivering threads. Well, I hope so, at any rate.

  • May 29, 2002, 8:18 a.m. CST

    Hi y'all!!

    by Vanyar

    So, this is where the party is. The old TB was very fun, but it was gettin a bit cumbersome to call up. OK, so what are we chattin about? Awww, crud, I see the idjit trollers are snuffling about. Same old boring, illiterate ill-informed tripe. OK, so what is the current hot topic? We needs to converse, Precioussss, or, to paraphrase the Nazi in ROTLA, "So, Fraulein Ravenwood, vut shall ve talk about, eh?"

  • May 29, 2002, 8:23 a.m. CST


    by Sinister

    Well Actually. LOTR involved extensive use of "little people". People of all shapes and sizes were used as scale doubles. And it also involved people of a great variety of races as extras. And it used them in REAL locations on REAL film. Not all in studios on DV. Which is why LOTR does NOT look like a computer game. Jackson directed three movies simultaneously. You do know that has never been attempted before don't you? The sheer enormity of the whole project is incredible. An interesting fact: Christopher Lee, who I believe was the best thing about AOTC(shame he even leant his name to it) claimed in an interview that LOTR was the greatest achievement of his career. He is listed in the Guiness book of records as the actor with the highest amount of film credits. He had waited 40 years to play a part in it. And this was after he had finished on AOTC. To summarise, LOTR is like the Olympic Games where AOTC is a dung slinging competition on Skywalker ranch.

  • May 29, 2002, 9:03 a.m. CST

    Actually LOTR DOES look like a computer game in particular scene

    by Burp Fartman

    e.g. Moria, the grand battle at the beginning, where they generated everything with computers except for the actors.... errr, do you feel deja vu? Yep. That's the same thing you've already experienced in the prequel Star Wars trilogy. The only difference is that ILM does state-of-the-art CGI and WETA is only trying to do...

  • May 29, 2002, 10:55 a.m. CST

    "Help me, Geek Nation, you're my only hope!"

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Utterly OT, but I would love a link to a .wav or something of the Spider-man song from the old cartoon. I realise, to my shame, that I've actually forgotten most of the words. Off to see Spidey the weekend after next, LOTR this weekend, hell, it's great to be me.

  • May 29, 2002, 11:26 a.m. CST

    Your Views of AOTC are clouded....

    by MinasTirith

    A lot of you TPM lovers and went into AOTC already proclaiming it was a good movie. Thus your mind was made up before you saw the terrible wreck that AOTC was. In 6 months time you will realize the idiocy you watched, the idiocy that AOTC was.

  • May 29, 2002, 12:28 p.m. CST

    In response to Sinister....

    by han_solo82

  • May 29, 2002, 12:36 p.m. CST

    In response to sinister...

    by han_solo82

    "To summarise, LOTR is like the Olympic Games where AOTC is a dung slinging competition on Skywalker ranch." What, you know what Lee said about SW : ____________________________ Lee, who turns 80 on March 27, is happy to have "Star Wars" on his resume. "For two reasons," he said, "one, to be a part of cinema history and two, I survived it." For clarification, Lee said he meant that his character survived in the story. He has played so many villains that he is accustomed to being killed off before the story is over. However, he said his lightsaber fight scene in "Star Wars" pushed the limits of his physicality. "My hands will move quickly," he said. "My legs won't. I found out the hard way what I can do and what I can't do." Some critics have registered stern disappointment with "Attack of the Clones," but Lee thinks they must be missing the point. "George Lucas said to me, 'Star Wars' has never had good reviews,'" Lee said. "But critics lose sight of the fact that this not Shakespeare. This is not the greatest actors in the world with the greatest dialogue in the world. This is entertainment." ____________________________ And this COMES from Lee, so any of you LOTR fans who says **** about AOTC, stop it this is ridiculous I mean anyone who says the special FX in AOTC was not impressive is either blind or hate SW. Don't get me wrong, I loved LOTR, I've seen it 4 times but come on SW was good, even though the acting wasn't excellent. It's for entertainment and man I was more entertain during AOTC than during Spider-man or LOTR. But my guess is that TTT and ROTK will be better than AOTC. So stop saying " Ah poor Christopher Lee, now is name is in the worst piece of **** ever made"

  • May 29, 2002, 12:38 p.m. CST

    EvilStar, Elf_Killer, and CGI issues

    by Halloween68

    EvilStar, just a quick comment. Sure Lucas created a universe while Jackson and Raimi adapted a film from a written novel. I fail to see your point in this. I don't have anything against anyone of them. I love SW, I love LOTR, and I love S-M. Lucas creation doesn't make him a better film maker than the others. He came up with SW and he came up with American Graffiti. Jackson and Raimi are both on their 6th film directorial project, respectively. And I'm not counting all the ones they've written or produced separately. Don't take shots at the directors. It doesn't hold water. All of these films require you to create separate universes. And their writing credits prove that they are all without a doubt master story tellers. What does it matter what current project was actually written by the director? And you're fooling yourself if you think Lucas wrote everything on all of the films except for the SW. *** Elf_Killer, tone it down, dude. You can get across your dislike for things in less insulting ways. Are you purposefully trying to offend and make people hate you? If you are, at least try to stop with the racism and the attack on other people's sexual preferences. I'm pretty open minded, and I can look passed most things, but you're starting to go too far. I'm suprised Harry hasn't banned you yet. Oh, and I can't resist. No one addressed it, and it's been said a million times before. (Actually I think I've heard it being said to you before.) Lord of the Rings was written 40 years before Star Wars or Willow was even a flicker in Lucas' mind. So it doesn't make since that LOTR would rip any one of these films off. If you're talking about film-making, styles you're dead wrong. Jackson directs more like Sam Raimi. Lucas doesn't really have a style. He's mostly concerned with CGI and getting all the details of his universe across. If ever had a style, you'd have to look at Graffiti, which reminded me of early Coppola (which makes sense, since they were good friends, and George had studied under him). *** Lastly, CGI effects in the first movie... I didn't really notice them (which is good; it means they were pretty seemless) except for two quick moments. The first was the bit with Legolas on the cave troll's back (I didn't notice it with the hobbits, Custer), and the second was when they come running out of Moria onto the sun bleached stones on the side of Lorien. That was it though. I mean, when you try hard you can figure out where they used a blue screen and where not (the piece where Saruman first appears on the steps of Isengard comes to mind), but none of it sticks out at you. I think overall the effects for the first film was awesome. Hopefully, there won't be any moments at all that I notice in the next two films. Oh, and my most anticipated moments from the next film are the rampaging Oliphant, the real face-off between Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard, Ent Moot, and Gimli and Legolas' budding friendship (orc kill counts).

  • May 29, 2002, 12:42 p.m. CST

    Lucas needs to use Models

    by MinasTirith

    PJ in LOTR used a lot of scale models to make things look more authentic. This worked in the SW Original Trilogy, remember those? Those were pretty decent movies, they even had an edge. Now that Lucas uses nothing but CGI the movies have failed. And boy lucas stole a lot. Blade Runner cities, somewhat Epic battle scenes aka LOTR, Braveheart, but alas Lucas failed in that area too. I am not sure where Lucas did good in AOTC. There is just nothing redeeming or even memorable in AOTC. Bad Bad Bad movie. The basics of movie making are totally over looked by lucas. No story, no script with decent dialogue, all the basics are ignored so we can all bask the glory of his eye candy, which really isn't all that great anyway. It's so flat.....thus the need to use models instead. And the sound, arghhh, sound in space can't be heard, but Lucas chose to use Semi-Trucks to create the sounds of ships in space flight. Laughable and pathetic. How sad. And the big scene, the Areana scene was straight out of LOTR and the Troll. Boy, that was bad too. Horrible pacing with that fight. And Yoda's fight was just way too short. Coolest part of the movie. And the Clone Aliens, terrible. They were like all 'stupid'. How can so many aliens in the SW universe be just plain stupid and of low intelligence? Is the answer cause it's a kids movie??? Lucas, please die, so someone good can do EPIII and make a decent movie.

  • May 29, 2002, 12:54 p.m. CST

    Lucas Calls it Entertainment...

    by MinasTirith

    Too bad lucas does not know much about Entertainment. He is so biased about his own work I don't think he could handle an ounce of crticism from his own people. How could lucas even watch this movie himself and not realize how bad it it? Is lucas just clueless? When he watched the movie before it's released what the hell could he possilby be thinkg?? "WOW I did it again! I made another Entertaining SW movie!! It will make a lot of money, not cause it's good, cause it's Entertaining!" But the thing is lucas, it's not entertaining, it's a strain on the membrane. It's nearly embarrasing to sit there and watch it. AOTC is a Movie?? No, it's a sales pitch, again. And there are so many suckers out there that fall for it everytime. SW is dead, there is not magic! TTT, will rule! Good luck on EP III Lucas, by your low standards it will be Entertainment. Not good entertainment mind you, just entertainment.

  • May 29, 2002, 1:54 p.m. CST

    MinasTirith, and I say this as one of the biggest PJ and LOTR fa

    by Pallando Blue

    ...will you PLEASE just shut the fuck up? At least about your anti-SW fetish, or take it to a SW talkback for fuck's sake? You and elf killer are different ONLY in franchise and delivery. I'm fucking sick of it. By the way, I had a HELL of a time with AOTC, thought it was fun as all get out and amazing to watch. Saw it twice in its first 12 hours of release and a third time last weekend. I'll be seeing it a fourth time, I'm positive, to see it in the local digital projection theater, at last. Its flaws were its own, just like PJ's FOTR (Tolkien's too, for that matter). I'm nobody's marketing tool or blind franchise whore, in fact I'm a pretty fucking smart person, happy, successful and well-liked in the Real World like the rest of the Regulars in these LOTR TBs. And frankly, MinasTirith, I don't want you associated with me, or them. That goes for crowing all things wonderful in re "LOTR" on SW boards, as well. So either change your fucking tune, or be prepared to eat the same shit elf killer gets fed in here. Maybe you'll develop his same amusing fetish for the abuse, who knows. But I'm done with being nice to ANY of the rabid ANTI-Fanboys. Largely because I'm pissed I let myself be goaded into wasting what little free surf-time I have these days with giving you the virtual finger. Elf killer, baby, don't ever change, dumplin'. But go up a few posts, and make damn sure I didn't just see you use "Jew" as a derogatory comment. Make damn sure. *** Back another day, mellon.

  • May 29, 2002, 1:57 p.m. CST

    Thanks, morG.

    by Pallando Blue

    In other words, folx, "what he said." ...Shoot, who'd a thought YOUR rant'd be the classy one, eh? ;~)

  • May 29, 2002, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Why CGI looks bad, and how to make it look good

    by DufusyteII

    It's all because of the way light looks on an object. CGI cannot perfectly duplicate the play of light on an object compared to a "real" scene. Therefore, if you have a real scene, and you paste in one cgi object, the cgi will look fake because your eye senses that the way light plays on the cgi object is slightly different than the way light is falling on the rest of the objects in the scene. ******* How to solve this problem: one way is to make the *entire* scene cgi. See, the problem is when you have a composite scene with real objects and cgi objects in the same shot, where your eye can compare the objects, and notice the subtle differences in lighting. But if the entire scene is cgi, such as some of the "Massive" shots of the armies in the Prologue of Fellowship, then your eye is not comparing cgi to real, since there is no "real" object in the shot to "spoil" it by providing a point of reference for comparison. ******* Similarly, in totally cg movies, such as Final Fantasy or Shrek, etc., the eye is not constantly jarred by the juxtaposition of cgi vs real objects since there are no real objects on screen to provoke the jarring comparison. Even though you can tell that the actors in Final Fantasy are not live humans, nevertheless they are not "jarring," since they are not pasted into a scene with real objects. That is to say, if the Set of Final Fantasy were real, and just the cg actors were pasted into a real set, the cg actors would look *worse*, since they would stand out, jarringly, as different than the real objects in the set. This is the kind of jarring juxtaposition that most films force upon themselves, namely pasting cg characters onto real sets, sometimes even right next to real actors. ******* How to solve again: if your movie requires having live actors and cg characters in the same shot, then the best thing you can do is to make half of the set cg. This way the cg character will not stand out as much, but he will seem to fit in with at least half of the set. For example, in a shot with Frodo and Gollum, if there are rocks around, you want to make half the rocks cg. This way, the light playing on Gollum's skin will play the same way on the cg rocks, and this will make him seem to fit in better. Otherwise, if all the rocks are real, then the light will play on all the real objects one way, and Gollum will stand out as the only thing in the shot with light playing on him differently than the rest of the shot. The cg rocks should be scattered about; they do not need to be the rocks closest to Gollum. ******* In conclusion: if you can do a shot that is *entirely* cg, like a big battle scene, it is best to make it entirely cg, and not "spoil" it by putting any real object in it. For example, do not put one live actor in the foreground. Do not put a couple live actors in the foreground. Rule 2: If you must have a composite shot with live and cg characters together, then make half of the Set cg also, so that the cg character will fit in better and not be the sole object that has lighting different than everything else in the shot.

  • May 29, 2002, 2:33 p.m. CST

    More Effects

    by MinasTirith

    It's quite clear in the SW movies that they are over ridden with effect, mostly as a mask to hide the bad acting, bad script and ridiculous chase scenes that are utterly unrealistic, aka Anakin in free fall and landing on the bounty hunters Sky-Car. Gosh is that terrible or what? Just not even close to anything that could be realistic. MODELS, it's the only way to go, minatures, what ever. Then clean up any masking problems with CGI. SW EP 4, was so much more realistic then what goof ball Lucas is doing now. SW cost like 4 million to make right? So with models Lucas may be able save some money so we don't have to hear him bitch about budgets. Gosh, let SW end now, Lucas just stop already. SIGH!

  • May 29, 2002, 3:24 p.m. CST

    MinasTirith, please shut the fuck up!

    by thatswguy

    I love LOTR, its probably my favorite movie of all time, tied with Spider Man. I also love SW even though it has a few problems. But you are an idiot! Take your crap to a SW TB, please don't ever come back to a LOTR TB again. You don't represent any of us fans. Your as bad as Elf_Whiner is dumb. The effects in Spidey, LOTR, and ATOC are awesome. You simply no next to shit about FX. Guess what troll, most of ATOC were models, ever read? Trying reading some trade mags on these movies and you'll find out that most of AOTC was models dumbass. The speeders were models, much of Coruscant's buildings were models, the bike speeder, gun ships, hangar ships, Geonosis buildings were all models, so was the arena. Your knowledge of SW and LOTR is shit like your brains.

  • May 29, 2002, 3:27 p.m. CST


    by MinasTirith

    Besides SW needing a good story, script, actors, a director as well, it could sure use some minatures. Not all this CG stuff.

  • May 29, 2002, 4:19 p.m. CST

    CGI for Clones

    by Halloween68

    I actually thought the CGI effects in the new Star Wars was brilliantly done. Just like with Rings, there was only one or two shots that kind've glaired out at me as being badly done. Overall though, it was mostly seemless. I agree with some of the talkbackers above in that I'm sure it's a lot easier to provide these effects in an all digital world. I still like some of the old school methods though. That was one really cool things about Fellowship... PJ really tested the boundaries of effects with his experimenting with different methods from shot to shot. The forced perspective, the colour treatment, the use of miniatures, cgi, even stop-motion. Jackson and the WETA crew did a kick butt job of keeping us guessing. I think the majority of the movie achieved the realism they were looking for.

  • May 29, 2002, 4:27 p.m. CST

    A real funny one...

    by Halloween68

    I'm embarrassed to say that my favorite part of Fellowship... It occured to me when someone above mentioned the use of the MASSIVE armies in the prologue. My favorite part of FOTR was, he, he, the prologue. We were talking about the strong parts of the first film before. I think the prologue kicked total ass. The fade ins and outs, Blanchette's soft but edgy voice, the beautifully pieced together narrative... I can't think of a better way that the film could've opened. Those shots of the Last Allience sent chills up my spine. I loved the rest of the film, but I think the prologue really raised the level of the movie before it really started. A small point, and one out of nowhere. But I figured I'd put it out there.

  • May 29, 2002, 4:31 p.m. CST

    LOTR fans should be above flaming and instigating trouble...

    by Butch_McTavish

    At least that's the way I see it. The LotR: FotR film is so beautiful and wonderful that it seems silly and unnecessary attempting any debate in it's defense. One has only to experience the film him/herself to know truth. No need to lower ourselves in responding to naysayers, especially those who rail against their own homosexual misgivings by exhibiting psuedo-homophobic behavior. ******* Quite simply, the LOTR films have set the new standard by which all others in the genre should aspire to. It really does not get any better than this folks, at least, not till TT and RotK.

  • May 29, 2002, 5:03 p.m. CST


    by Butch_McTavish

    You're so cute. ;)

  • May 29, 2002, 5:14 p.m. CST


    by Butch_McTavish

    You slay me.

  • May 29, 2002, 5:15 p.m. CST

    Dufy? You feeling all right?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    ...cos what you said about CGI actually was kind of sensible - don't know if it was accurate, but sensible. And also you appeared to have dropped your rather arch and patronising tone, left it on the bus maybe. Hmm. Either you're high or I am, and I'm pretty sure it's not me. Just tell me normal service will be resumed shortly. So nice to see the usual crew have escaped the quarantine of the old TB and infected the new. Actually I'm really enjoying the new digs at the moment, despite the trollery. It's true, Minas Tirith, you really should give it a rest. FOTR is in no danger from SW and vice versa, and neither is TTT. There is nothing to get worked up about. Move along, there's nothing to see...

  • May 29, 2002, 7:09 p.m. CST

    An embarrassment of riches.

    by BG

    Man this is a great time to be a film geek! Here we are 'discussing' the relative merits of a LOTR film verses a Star Wars film verses a Spider Man film!! Is this film geek paradise or what?! And the best thing is we have 1 SW and 2 LOTR films still to come! Woo Hoo! Now, on the speculation front, I think TTT will end with Saruman's death. That way each movie will end with a dramatic event (ie, Boromir's death, Saruman's death and Sauron's defeat). PJ has already indicated that the second film will deviate from the book more than the other two. What do you think?

  • May 29, 2002, 7:25 p.m. CST

    On the subject of trolls...

    by Billy Talent

    I take it many of you seldom visit 'Star Wars' talkbacks. Beware that General Custer fella.

  • May 29, 2002, 7:46 p.m. CST

    Speculating... BIG-TIME SPOILERS!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    How will TTT end? Hmm... Well, bearing in mind that there's about two story strands in the book, the question could also be, where will each strand end? (Gets out the book like a total geek). Right, in the book, the whole fighting-a-huge-war part ends with Gandalf riding to Minas Tirith with Pippin. And the sneaking-into-Mordor part ends rather famously with Sam slumped against the gates of Cirith Ungol, after Frodo is captured. In fact it goes like this, and I'm going to write it out cos I love it, like the total geek I am. So sue me.) "The great doors slammed to. Boom. The bars of iron fell into place inside. Clang. The gate was shut. Sam hurled himself against the bolted brazen plates and fell senseless to the ground. He was out in the darkness. Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy." I *still* think it should end there, but what do I know. We only know that it doesn't end that way in the movie, since Shelob doesn't appear till ROTK. In the movie, the Frodo/Sam thread may possibly end with Gollum's repentance moment, and their story ends with them being lead to betrayal. After all, I'm pretty sure that Faramir features heavily in this one, and after they leave him, there's just Minas Morgul (oh God, let that be in, with the huge army and the creepy ass flowers and the Lord of the Nazgul...) and the climb up Cirith Ungol really. If this is done well, the moviemakers could risk a big triumphal battle scene where the good guys win. They want a bit of a cliffhanger, after all, else why watch the final movie? And the good guys do kick Saruman's arse. Actually, watching a film where events move past the Bakshi version is just going to be plain out fucking *weird*, if you ask me. I keep thinking some weird jinxy thing will happen and the film will combust in the middle of TTT. And that'll be it for another 20 years...

  • May 29, 2002, 9:28 p.m. CST

    Austin powers

    by adam_61550

    I wonder if the new "big" trailer everybodys talking about will be in front of Austin Powers 3?? Its New Line ya know, I just have a feeling.....

  • May 29, 2002, 9:30 p.m. CST


    by Sinister

    HA HA HA.....I hope you're joking. If you call cartoons state of the art CGI...then for you yes thats true. I think you just resent the fact that a small effects company from a small country showed the world "This is how you use CGI effectively". I don't believe everything I read but I know what looks good to me. Read this.,1008,1207685a11,FF.html And to whoever it was...I'd just like to reinforce the fact that LOTR was first envisioned around the thirties, about 50 years before all these movies you claim it is ripping off. Braveheart??? HA HA HA ....I love Braveheart, but you are joking right? Epic battles are part of history. To claim that including epic battle sequences is ripping off some movie is laughable. You might as well claim Spider Man borrowed all its material from the comics. I sure hope you are just having a laugh.

  • May 30, 2002, 5:52 a.m. CST

    Postcard from Angband

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Where I'm currently on holiday - had to weigh in on the CG debate. I prefer model work on sci-fi because it gives a grittier, darker feel, ever since Alien, Star Wars, Outland and even TV like Blake's 7, Galactica and Space 1999. CGI always looks too clean to me, from Last Starfighter onwards. The whole new tech argument for TPM fails because surely the Empire aren't using 20 year old TIE fighters? CGI in fantasy films works differently. The most awesome dragon in cinema was probably Vermithrax in Dragonslayer, but stop motion has aged (although I didn't think Jurassic Park looked any better than 1 Million Years BC). I've yet to see Clones and I'll give CGI Yoda a chance, but his muppet charm is what made him so appealing in the first place. Last point - the animated acrobats in Blade II were bad, bad, bad.

  • May 30, 2002, 9 a.m. CST

    Ummm, no offense y'all.....

    by Vanyar

    ......but can we start talking about some LOTR topics on this LOTR TB? C'mon Tailenders! Let's not play the trollers game. Sure they need a dressing down occasionally, but let's not let'em drag us down into the gutter, eh? So, it's been ststed by PJ and Fran that the Faramir scenes will be extended. Any guesses as to how? Oh, and how do y'all feel about the Saruman dies in TTT versus ROTK reality? Namarie, mellyn.

  • May 30, 2002, 9:06 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Indeedily. Well, I like the notion of extending Faramir - he is cool. I'd like to extend Faramir (how's that for lowering the tone, kids?) Weird thing I read in the "Letters" yesterday - the notion that Tolkien identified most with Faramir (though he also does say that he's more hobbit than anything). Hmm. But anyhoo, Alice is all for Faramir being in it a lot as he is hot. He does, if I remember from the books, do a lot of things off-camera - such as holding the bridge and so forth - mebbe this is what they mean. However, I do remember reading that they extended the bits with Frodo and Sam and Faramir, and I have no idea how that would go. (Thinks for a minute) No, still no idea. I imagine they'll play up the idea of mutual betrayal between Frodo and Gollum. But that would involve adding stuff, which makes me anxious. I know "trust PJ", but I'm not a very trusting chick. Kind of like Gollum in that regard.

  • May 30, 2002, 10:38 a.m. CST

    Extending Faramir

    by Conan_the_Humble

    I agree Alice. I think they will show the scenes that Faramir is involved in, but that are glossed over in the book. PJ, for all his excellent work, has focussed more on the fight scenes from the story than other bits. I guess TTT and ROTK will be absolutely action packed in that case, as they each possess far more battles than FOTR. I believe TTT will end with Saruman's death and I've got a feeling it's gonna be on a big spiky wheel... Cheers.

  • May 30, 2002, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Okay, then. Much better now.

    by Pallando Blue

    Sorry for blowing my gasket, y'all--not you, subjects of my derision, but apologies everyone else. But thanks for gettin my back, elanor ;) Once again proving I want you on my side in a barfight, don't care HOW short you are! And yeah, Billy Talent, I've been to SW boards and know of what you speak. Ticks me off, too. But I'm well caffeinated this morning, with some genuine breathing room in my schedule, and I don't wanna throw it away on their inanities. At least, I'd rather the inanities be my own! *** NOW THEN! The topic is Faramir's Extension (there you go, Alice). A long way way's back (maybe even the 2 Original 20 Questions?) PJ was discussing changes in the script shifting from 2 films to 3. Expanding Faramir's Part (another one for you, Alice) was definitely a goal from the beginning. He said he wanted to explore the irony that the greatest threat to Frodo's mission in the second book/movie isn't from Sauron's forces, but from Man. So, I think Frodo's thread is going to be 1/4 Taming of Smeagol, 2/3 der hunky Farahslaxer catch-and-release program, 1/6 final trek to the cankered lip of Mordor (with Gollum's Big Oscar Scene). Um, someone check that math. Anyway, that's what I'm figgerin. I don't think there'll be as dramatic a Last Temptation Of Faramir scene as was film-written for Galadriel, or a gobbling Ring-induced freak-out like Boromir's. But certainly a measured wavering as to what to do with The Ring once Sam spills the cat out of the bean bag. He doesn't have the benefit of a Council, and his solo decision to let Frodo go is a, um, decisive moment in the entire story, no less than Aragorn's--in fact, I wonder how much PJ'll overtly draw parallels between those two decisions, and the character of the men who make them. Interesting! Also, I suspect the initial parley/interrogation will be positively fraught with tension... The more I think about that--from both Frodo's AND Faramir's point of view--the more I'm looking forward to that scene. *** On a side note, I remember Harry talk of watching Astin and Wood doing blue-screen work for their scenes with Faramir's men, being picked up and hustled along and such, and how complicated it all looked. Astin told him after that Nah, that was maybe a 6, 6.5 out of 10 on the complicated blue-screen work they've had to do. What was a 10? Rolling and wrestling with a virtual Gollum on a mountainside....

  • May 30, 2002, 1:01 p.m. CST

    A quick jump backward off-topic to an old topic, tangentially. (

    by Pallando Blue

    ...That I followed but didn't have time to join. A little bit ago there was a brief re-discussion about the film's actors and/or art design intruding, or not, on one's personal visuals while reading the book. Now then, I haven't read LOTR since last fall, so can't comment on that. And I don't think I HAVE a visual of Bingo Bolger-Baggins of HOME-VI:HOLOTR-I fame, yet. (Not sure J.R.R. ever did, either.) *** But I will say this: You want a real hard laugh? I mean, a solid, hold your gut laugh like you haven't since you first read "Bored Of The Rings"? Well, guess what I just finished zipping through last week? (Hint: Note "Farahslax" reference earlier.) Sure, some of us have probably picked it up and chuckled many, many times over the years, but, sadly, the humor has of course dwindled somewhat with familiarity. NOW, though, read it and picture PJ's cast as all their respective BOTR counterparts. OH MY GOD it's like reading it all over again. For crying out loud, Ian McKellen's Goodgulf had me in TEARS... Wood's Frito... Astin's Spamwise Gangrene... Dom and Billy, bloodying their noses as Moxie and Pepsi... The whole lot of em! Viggo's Arrowroot mooning over Miranda's ach-tung Eorache! Sean Bean's look of utter annoyance at being constantly referred to as "the man in the pointy shoes"! All of em riding their bleating war-merinos! ...I'm telling you, dust off your old copy of BOTR. Whether or not reading LOTR's changed for you at all, just try and read Bored without seeing these faces, hearing these voices. Or don't, rather, cause it's so fun when you do. The jokes'll feel fresh like they haven't been in years! *** Hopping from one tangent to another... I read PJ say in an interview that he'd only recently heard of BOTR and is purposefully avoiding it until these films are all done, for fear of getting some bad, baaad ideas. :~) Now then, say he gets a copy for Xmas 2004, after all his DVDs are done and out (except maybe the 5,000-hour Making-Of docs). Completely loses his shit over it, like all LOTR fans their first time. Decides to make Film History once again.... Begins making phone calls to his original cast members..... Overnights each a copy of BOTR, and to a one they write back enthusiastically..... Sigh, a dreamer will dream.

  • May 30, 2002, 1:06 p.m. CST

    Brilliant deduction, Alice

    by Halloween68

    Oh that would be splendid to see all those expanded scenes involving Faramir and his exploits aside from his intervention with Frodo and Sam. And on a note about what someone said about The Two Towers having more changes to the book than the other two... I'm thinking he's mostly talking about the shuffling of scenes. You've got stuff taken over from the first book (the story of smeagol and deagol for one), you've got stuff pushed back to the next movie, and I'm sure he'll be intermixing the sequences of the two halves of the fellowship. I'm thinking, and hoping, plot changes are at a minimum. I thought he did a great job with the first, and he's given us now an idea of how he's going to handle the material. From what I've gathered, Arwen will come to Lothlorien to gaze in the mirror and check up on Aragorn. I don't know of any other changes (or additions really). I've still got my fingers crossed that elves don't show up in Helm's Deep. Other than Legolas that is. As far as an ending... Sure the last one ending after a major event, but it didn't end on the major event. They began their separate journeys. For my money, I say the movie ends pretty much the same way as the book with the one side: Pippen's looked into the Palantir, they've split up, and are on there way to Minas Tirith. After this with Frodo and Sam, I'm betting the film ends with closing credits after they've witnessed the lord of Nazgul leave with his armies and they are facing the mouth of Shelob's cave. It's seems to me that this would be a logical choice in setting the fellowship up for their next, and final stage of events. It doesn't make sense that they would start the next movie off with Pippin sneaking a look at the Palantir. Unless, and here's a trick PJ might pull, maybe they'll have Pippen peer into the stone when he first picks it up off the steps of Isengard. It could combine the scenes and trim the time. Same with Frodo and Sam. It doesn't seem right that they would have the two wake up, find Gollum gone and then cut to credits. I say you put 'em right at the gates of hell. No turning back, setting everything up for whats to come.

  • May 30, 2002, 1:40 p.m. CST

    Now back to our regular scheduled topic already in progress

    by Pallando Blue

    [Although one thing I forgot to mention: The fact that everyone in Bored OT Rings rides sheep, and that the movies were all made in New Zealand, is just SUCH a wonderful piece of synchronicity it boggles the mind!] As for the end of T2T, and the death of Saruman, Miami Mofo just said everything I think. It's with wistful resignation, and wary hopefulness, that I go into T2T fully expecting Saruman to bite it hard on the Spiky Wheel of Isengard. Although, I will say, in my baker's-dozen viewings of FOTR I took careful watch of just how close any of those wheels come to the base of Orthanc, and my conclusion is None. None in wizard-throwin' distance, anyway, not even in very-small-rock-throwin' distance. Same for the picture of the bigature in Cinefex (if I remember right--someone have that handy?). Sure that doesn't mean much, but...... *** Now, I think Helm's Deep is going to be the big centerpiece, as in more toward the center than most folx are predicting. I think it'll be the big action climax of the 2nd Act (War-thread), and the 3rd will be the parley at Orthanc, ending with Saruman doing a Don Martin-esque SHTOINK! and Pippin and Gandy tearing ass to Minas Tirith, like the book. But the FILM will end on Frodo and Sam's thread again. I think Gollum will have already had his near-repentance, and their last scene will be him coaxing them up the stairs, by Minas Morgul, when the Gates Open and the Army Ushers Forth. [A quick question on book geography--anyone care to describe the physical layout of that scene in the book? One element in the movie I've never heard made mention--when the Nine burst out of Morgul at the beginning, anyone else notice that little door at the base of the tower, to the left facing the gates? It seems, to me, so conspicuous and not fitting the rest of the "architectural design"... Think it's their route to the Stair, or does that make no sense at all? One of those things where once I noticed it, I couldn't STOP noticing it.] If PJ and Fran aren't ending with the post-Shelob cliffhanger, this would be my second-place choice. It has elements of every thread in the story, all at once: Visually evokes the masses at the incredible HD battle, which will suddenly look like a skirmish in light of this horizon-spanning army. It's the War on its march, and we know where it's headed and who's in its way; it's every horror our other thread's heroes are going to have to deal with. But there's Frodo and Sam in the foreground, with the Real Quest, weary, fearing for their lives (and now more than ever for the rest of M-E, seeing the scale of things up close), and being led into the final, most dangerous stage of their journey by a traitor. Unifies the two storylines before the fade-out, with PLENTY of cliffhanger elements. Honestly, I can't even THINK of a third place to possibly end it. Any other ideas out there?

  • May 30, 2002, 1:49 p.m. CST

    regarding Saruman's end

    by DufusyteII

    If PJ wants to finish TTT with the dramatic end of a big baddie like Saruman, that is fine: let him fall off of Orthanc and get spiked, and let everybody clap and assume that is the end of him and leave the theater celebrating, *however!* just like Gandalf showed up again after falling into the abyss with the Balrog, I want Saruman to show up again at the end of rotk at the Shire, and Sam can say, "Aren't we through with you yet?" and Saruman can reply, "It is not easy to kill a wizard." And then I want the Scouring of the Shire to play out, and Saruman to get dispatched a second time. ******* This would not be unusual at all, since the audience is already aware that even though Sauron was slain in the prologue, he took shape again subsequently. Also, as mentioned, Gandalf comes back. So, if the audience sees Saruman turn up again in rotk, it will not strike them as unusual, since these wizards, or whatever a better word for them is, evidently have nine lives. ******* And I think it is very important to show the scouring of the Shire, insofar as the story begins at the Shire (Bilbo's idyllic Party), and it really has to end there in order to come full circle. The vision in the Mirror, with the Shire aflame and the hobbits enslaved, makes the audience fear the worst for the Shire, and we really need closure in that regard. I mean, if you want to do it really quick and cheap, then you can just show Sam trudging back to the Hobbiton with the sun smiling on the green fields (without getting into the whole Scouring bit), but we at least need to see one idyllic shot of the Shire to reassure us that peace has been restored there. It's what the whole story is about, really: saving/preserving the Shire. The trip to Mt. Doom is all for the Shire's sake, from the hobbits' perspective, and from Tolkien's as well (since he is a hobbit at heart).

  • May 30, 2002, 1:55 p.m. CST

    This Istari's off his game, but I'll take a crack at it

    by Pallando Blue

    ...That is, bjarki, until Vanyar politely explains just why I'm completely wrong. :~) I haven't checked out the TORN Green Books response you mentioned, so maybe this is all redundant to you. But I think you're forgetting Elrond's brother Elros. Just recalling off the top of my head, but I believe that the two half-Elven brothers WERE given the choice when they reached a certain age of consent; Elrond chose his Elven heritage and immortality, while Elros chose the world of Man, albeit with a ridiculously extended life-span. So, to continue glossing over the whole story, he was the first King of Numenor, the blood of Elves were in his lineage, but they were mortals and the life-spans steadily decreased over the Ages, til you get to Aragorn II who managed only something like 140 (a wild stab, how close did I get?). You know, I'm not sure I answered your wuestion at all--I'm not even sure I remember it correctly. (And I said I was caffeinated today, HA! Perhaps too much so...) But maybe I deflected the issue satisfactorily? Vanyar! Help!

  • May 30, 2002, 2:18 p.m. CST

    You know, Dufer

    by Pallando Blue

    Ignoring your predictably horrid dialogue ;) I like the cut of your jib, there. The opportunity's definitely there for PJ to pull a switcheroo on everyone. Still, a dicey maneuver to be sure, with lotsa backlash potential. BUT, even if that's not the case, there have been some confirmations as to what we can expect at the end of ROTK, so let me put yer mind at ease on one or two fronts. Holm has said he's filmed Grey Havens scenes, so CHECK. (Plus, it was even in the 2-film script, so, natch.) GH is in, no doubts. Also, it's been widely reported that Astin's own daughter has been cast as Elanor, and, furthermore, there have been leaked photos/frames of her in hobbit costume jumping into Daddy's arms. So, it looks pretty definite that it WILL all end in the Shire, with enough time having passed for Sam to knock at least one puppy out of Rose, let alone some Shire-healing. So rejoice! *** My one DEMAND out of the entire film trilogy, and I've said this many a time, is that the last spoken dialogue before fade-out is Sam, to Rose, "Well, I'm back." No confirmation there, yet, and probably not until 2:55 a.m. December 1x, 2003.

  • May 30, 2002, 2:54 p.m. CST

    How one ends The Two Towers

    by hildebrand

    I imagine that Mr. Jackson will mirror the end of FOTR, with two groups once again on the move after weighty decisions have been made. Gandalf and Pippin (sorry if it is the other, it has been quite a while since I have read the story) head for Gondor at top speed, and Frodo, Sam and Gollum head for the hidden paths. In this instance I imagine that the battle at Helm's Deep will serve as the big action moment, not unlike the Mines of Moria in FOTR. Which leaves some time for the brief shining moment to get slammed back into the dark once again. Which of course leaves the opening of the film to detail how everyone got to the big scenes. ****The ending will stop right at the moment when everything seems to be working against the fellowship, when all choices look bleak, and when all hope, while not gone, is definitely in doubt. Frankly, the moment that I am looking forward to (in ROTK), only because it never fails to be fully disheartening (even though I know what the mouth does not), is when the Mouth of Sauron produces Frodo's sword and mailshirt. Hopefully that will be in the final film, and I hope that the scene is as bone-chilling as possible. It is one of Tolkien's best scenes in a book blessed with many.*******Nonetheless, I look foward to how Mr. Jackson plans to work with the most difficult of the three books.

  • May 30, 2002, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Of Earendil's Offspring & Aragorn's Age

    by Vanyar

    PB: Hey, mellon, you are batting .500, and that is FANTASTIC for any baseball fan. Uhhh, Vanyar, who said anything about baseball? Umm, I guess I did. I, ummm, never mind...these long work days are gettin to me. Anyway, you are spot on re: Elros and Elrond. They were given the choice as to which race they would belong. Elrond was referred to as Half-elven simply because of his heritage, not because of his actually still being partially human. As for Aragorn II (aka Strider, Elessar, Estel, Elfst....well, you know) I'm afraid you were off by about 70 years. If memory serves, he was just shy of 90 during the War of the Ring, and he ruled for 120 years ( or was it 110 ?). Oh bother. Let me calculate. I know he was born in TA 2931, and he was crowned in 3019, so he was, ummm, 88 at his coronation. Lessee, the TA ended in 3021 (making him 90), and Elessar died in 3141 (I think) by the old reckoning, which would be a 120-year reign. So, that should add up to 210, as he laid down his life on his birthday, March 1st. Did that make sense? Hope it was helpful. Namarie, mellon.

  • May 30, 2002, 3:21 p.m. CST

    Pallando and the other guy (?)

    by Halloween68

    While I do not have the references or memory of you Pallando, I kinda' had that idea in mind, while never so rich in detail. I always figured it was a right of passage thing available only to half-elves... I guess I just assumed it was some unspoken ritual passed down from the Valar. 'Guess I wasn't too far off the mark. I had forgotten about Elrond's brother. I await to here from the Istari's thoughts as well.

  • May 30, 2002, 3:31 p.m. CST

    But here's the REAL Half-Elf stumper...

    by Pallando Blue

    ...Did Elros have pointy ears? ;)

  • May 30, 2002, 4 p.m. CST

    TTT Ending

    by ArPharazon

    If I had to guess when PJ will end TTT for Frodo and Sam, I'd guess it will be right after the part where Frodo, Sam and Gollum watch Sauron's army leave Minas Morgul. The Lord of the Nazgul stops on the bridge, looks around, Frodo feels the overwhelming urge to put on the Ring, grasps the Phial of Galadriel and regains control, the army departs toward Gondor, and Frodo, Sam and Gollum start towards the stair. Such a scene (complimented by Gandalf and Pippin racing off to Gondor) will set everything in motion for the final movie.

  • May 30, 2002, 4:03 p.m. CST

    Another stumper

    by ArPharazon

    If Elwe Singollo was one of the original elves that awoke at Cuivienen, how could Olwe be his brother? How could he have a brother?

  • May 30, 2002, 5:01 p.m. CST

    I'm coming "Out" so you better get those Homos started!!!

    by general_custer_

    Yes, I confess I'm a Homo. I'm also a SW troll. I only trash it on their boards because I love it so much. I also have a tiny weiner, its really small, its pathetic. It fits in a thimble. I guess the joke is up. I never did like LOTR. I just fooled all you fools. So maybe the SW people will take me back butt I doubt it. They don't like Homos. But you LOTR people love Homos so I guess I can stay here! Yippiee! I'm sorry for lying to you all you can butt plug me anytime.

  • May 30, 2002, 5:49 p.m. CST

    Faramir, fully extended... is that joke getting old yet? I hope

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Hmm - I did always think it was pretty rich in the movie when Elrond says, "Men are weak." in that contemptible way, considering he's the Half-Elven. But where was I? Yeah, I remember. I don't know if the fighting-the-humongous-war thread will end with Gandalf and Pippin. It's kind of low-key. Mind you the last one kind of did. Might make more sense to use it at the beginning of ROTK, to get everyone up to speed with the story. Ultimately, the ride to Minas Tirith is an exposition scene, setting up for the next book. Might make more sense to have it in the next movie. And I also think the pitching-the-One-into-the-fire thread will a) be the last shown before the credits and b) on the stairs at Cirith Ungol, after Gollum's Oscar moment, or conceivably when the dark army marches out (thus imperilling all of the characters in the movie). Part of me leans towards the former, I guess, since I seem to remember PJ talking about intensifying "the psychological games" Gollum and Frodo play with one another (or I might have dreamt it). These games revolve around trust and treachery, I think, and Gollum's repentence moment might be thrown away by holding it off to the next film. But I don't know. Just something to think about.

  • May 30, 2002, 6:18 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    They're not the same people. They have different usernames - elf_shiller tagged an underscore on to General Custer's. Don't understand why he isn't banned. It wouldn't be rocket science to figure out his ISP, and I do know that Harry monitors this stuff cos he said so at the booksigning in London.

  • May 30, 2002, 6:34 p.m. CST

    Wizard on a spit!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    It's quite funny, actually, because I remember someone doing something similar to Mercier when he was in his balls-out SW troll phase. Of course, whoever attempted it actually tried to sound like Mercier, which helped the illusion somewhat. But I must concur with Dufy, no reason at all Saruman couldn't show up alive after his kebabbing in terms of the *movie* - unfortunately all the Tolkien crack whores (who I'm sure will correct me if I'm wrong) would go psycho apeshit. Gandalf only got to come back because *his task was not yet finished*. Somehow I don't see the Valar providing Saruman with a return visa.

  • May 30, 2002, 8:42 p.m. CST

    Stay on topic...

    by SmilingCat

    I don't even want to pretend that I understand the mentality of most people posting on public talk-back forums, but I was under the impression that this particular discussion was about Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. Instead, I find a bunch of whiny posts dealing with muh-fuh-king George Lucas and his stupid Star Wars tripe. Look people, there are many places to post your penny-ante bull-shyte views on Attack of the Clones. This is NOT one of them. When a person searches for Star Wars reviews, they want to find your opinion. I did not search for Star Wars. I searched for LOTR:TTT. You obsessive Lucasites need to stop cluttering up the internet with your relentless bantering about a series of films that is rapidly going down the tubes. As for the rest of you, if you know how I can get my hands on either of the TTT trailers, please email me. Peace.

  • May 31, 2002, 6:27 a.m. CST

    I dunno

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    anal beads made out of 21-sided dice? I thought that was quite humorous. Anyway back to Faramir, I always thought he was a drip. Sorry. More screen time for Ugluk and Grishnakh! Bring on the Woses! And somebody get that ranger a bottle of shampoo! PS Gandalf obviously got a taste for breaking in FOTR, and returns in white cos he's now a keen Capoeirista. Paran

  • May 31, 2002, 6:46 a.m. CST


    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I just hosed the order. Must be my karma.

  • May 31, 2002, 7 a.m. CST're impressing no one

    by Dragonfire

    So you appear to be homophoebic, anti-semetic and an asshole all at tonce. In case you hadn't noticed, most of the talkbackers are ignoring you now. I guess thats what happens when you post the same pointless shite over and over again.

  • May 31, 2002, 8:42 a.m. CST

    Re: Half-Elven Choice & Olwe/Elwe Fraternity

    by Vanyar

    ***bjarki56: I think you are spot on regarding the more tempered, sympathetic nature of Elrond being based in his dual heritage. He is fully Elf now of course, but has a different perspective from his Eldarin kin. He (and his children) are, in essence, a sort of bridge between the two races. As for why Elros

  • May 31, 2002, 9:40 a.m. CST

    But the EARS, Vanyar, what about Elros' ears?!?

    by Pallando Blue

    Hee hee, okay then, this suggests another take on an old classic: Did the first Elves, who awoke at Cuivenen, have belly buttons....? ;) (I'll stump that Vanyar yet, I swear....)

  • May 31, 2002, 9:58 a.m. CST

    Various Responses

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Pallando - I agree, "Well, I'm back." is definitely a keeper. Personally, I've always reckoned that it's one of the top last lines for any novel ever written by anybody. And Hildebrand, I think the scene with Frodo's mailshirt (though I think it's actually *Sam's* sword - didn't Sam take Sting when he thought Frodo was dead? Makes you wonder why he didn't take the mailshirt - though it's a bloody good thing he didn't, under the circumstances.) and sword *have* to be in there. It's like, "What's the worst thing that can happen? Oh, yeah. This." morGoth - I hope they *don't* capture Gollum at the same time as the hobbits - it's kind of necessary for Frodo to effectively *betray* Gollum to the Men in order for all of the rest of it to work. And anyway, that scene of them coming on him fishing in the pool in the middle of the night is so damn cinematic. And I want to see Sam with his hands on his hips, telling Faramir off. That would make my life complete. SmilingCat - there were two vids of the TTT trailer in the cinema, one of full thing bu dreadful quality and clearly photographed by someone's crappy camcorder, and another one from Asian movie program but which didn't have the full footage. It appears to have been taken down from most of the places that had it, but try looking at, I seem to remember that they had some links up from private sites and maybe they still have it (being unofficial).

  • May 31, 2002, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Another take on the Dufu Solution, some slight Other News, and a

    by Pallando Blue

    That&#39;s a good point, Alice, in that Saruman would be denied a second chance, so certainly a no return policy on that Maia. Definitely a poser. But instead of being Saruman&#39;s "death," what say the rotisserie&#39;s his "imprisonment"? If Mr. &#39;syte doesn&#39;t mind my take on his dialogue stylings, I&#39;m now trying to picture Saruman being SHTOINKed on the spike by some Gandy Telekinesis, with a hearty "Now STAY there!" Later, Treebeard tries to explain his act of mercy ("You let him WHAT??"), "He just looked so room-a-brum-booma-room damn uncomfortable, honestly. And if I had to listen to one more minute of that whining..." Then it&#39;s only up to PJ to explain why a rotating crucifixion on a 2-foot-long iron spike through the breadbasket is nowhere near as life-threatening to a Maiar as a 2-ducat stilletto across the jugular. No problem! The Scouring is IN! ...Okay, so reducto ad absurdum isn&#39;t working for us in this case. Damn. **** Now then, I guess I should do the horrid &#39;fess up first. I guess the best way is just to spit it out. Rip the bandage right off. I think I spooked Costa Botes off, dammit, maybe for good. SHIT! I didn&#39;t MEAN to do it, I thought it was just part of the casual back-and-forth we&#39;d been having. Maybe he just got sick of talking LOTR, having lots of other projects and interests in his life (unlike poor PJ, as he pointedly pointed out). I thought I&#39;d let LOTR stay just a marginal part of it, but perhaps I pushed my luck a little. Maybe not, maybe he&#39;s just been too busy as hell to get back. But it&#39;s been a few weeks since I heard back from the guy. Don&#39;t think I&#39;m gonna get another reply at this point. (sniff, girls, sniff, if you&#39;ve been through this before, sniffle, tell me, snorf, why don&#39;t men CALL??) Sigh. I may have been finally brushed off as Just Another Rabid Fan, which is just SO humiliating (tho, from his point of view I s&#39;pose, understandable). [WHOA--inspiration! Anyone remember &#39;80s Roy Scheider action flick, Blue Thunder? Daniel Stern&#39;s character? We should get ourselves a bunch of "JARF" caps....] *** Now, in my defense, I didn&#39;t go all apeshit on the guy asking for spoilers, at least I didn&#39;t think so. I&#39;ll let y&#39;all be the judge. Basically I was just asking about the current reshoots, which he mentioned way back in his U-OK visit as being 60 days worth. I tried to make the point that I didn&#39;t want story spoilers and the like, just was curious about the production side of such a massive reshoot, as in are these newly written sequences or just touch-ups and tweaks. 60 days being enough to make an entire other film. A "what" question, but really and truthfully looking for only the vaguest of answers. Yeah, I know, sounds a bit duplicitous to me, too. SIGH. (I blew it. I know it. Scared him off, too much too soon. What do I do, ladies? Curl up on the couch with ice cream, candles, and Al Jarreau music? Or a long bath, candles, and alcohol? SHIT) Anyway, now that this TB&#39;s off the front page, thought I&#39;d share his final bit of dish-light. After explaining in very blunt terms that he&#39;s "a signatury to a confidentiality agreement, which is legally binding, so...obviously cannot be terribly forthcoming," (ugh--that stung) he does mention one or two things, although nothing, really, that we probably couldn&#39;t assume ourselves: "However, I can inform you that the pick up shoot is NOT 60 days. It&#39;s more like half that. The purpose, as you surmise, is manifold. The making of LOTR has been a fairly organic process, with rewriting a constant theme. Thus, a degree of change was always expected, planned for, and budgeted for accordingly. No huge new sequences are planned. It&#39;s all small stuff - fixes, redos, tweaks." *** So, there you go. Not really all that much of a scoop, considering the cost. I lost the Tailender&#39;s best inside source we coulda ever hoped for. Of course, he hasn&#39;t changed his e-mail... but I&#39;d need a reason! Should I go crawling back? Do you... do you think he&#39;s seeing other fans? Maybe he just needs his space. How long should I wait? >30-second inhale< ...siiiiiiighhh... See you all Monday, mellyn. Til then I&#39;ll be curled up in the tub with my alcohol-covered ice cream, lotsa candles, and Al Jarreau loud enough to get me evicted. Or maybe the Ramones.

  • May 31, 2002, 11:53 a.m. CST

    Why they don&#39;t call...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Pallando, don&#39;t worry about it. Sometimes you get too busy to reply to stuff, and then never get around to it. I think he told you a shitload of interesting stuff, to be honest, and was extremely forthcoming. I mean, the fact that they&#39;ve not drastically changed anything, which obviously means they feel comfortable with the way it&#39;s gone (and there&#39;s no particular reason of course that they shouldn&#39;t, really, the way things have gone down). And it could be that they&#39;ve been asked not to talk about TTT particularly. I mean, let&#39;s be straight, there is like ZERO news coming through on it right now, same as FOTR, and for that to be the case, things have to be tight. One tip though - the best way to make sure a guy never calls you is let him overhear you telling people that you&#39;re bothered that he didn&#39;t call. I got burned that way once, never again. I don&#39;t care if they&#39;re the Pope, Darth Vader, or Faramir, if they don&#39;t call, then I just move on with my life. Another girly observation is that they can not call even if you&#39;ve had the most fabulous time on your date. Sometimes it&#39;s BECAUSE you had a fabulous time - they get nervous and have cold feet and so forth - so maybe Costa doesn&#39;t feel ready for a lifetime commitment to you. Don&#39;t worry! Plenty more fish in the sea! Most of them covered with poisonous spines of coure, but hey! Sorry. I&#39;m being cynical now, aren&#39;t I? Personally, I think it suits me...

  • May 31, 2002, 1:16 p.m. CST

    Whine of the devil...

    by Pallando Blue

    ...and the director appears, or something. Here&#39;s a damn good article BY Botes, TORN linked to just within the hour: *** Alice, dammit, you are a font of comfort and wisdom indeed. :) First and most importantly, you are damn straight he was a hell of a lot more forthcoming than I could&#39;ve expected--it&#39;s just that a month&#39;s gone by since I said roughly "Whoa, thanks so much! so, how&#39;s the non-LOTR NZ Film Industry doing? LOTR ripple effect yet?" with no reply. I always tried to make it clear to him that the kind of thing that&#39;d BE a breach of the confidentiality agreement, I don&#39;t WANNA know. First time I directly asked him anything LOTR-related (non-doco), actually. Never, never wanted to pump him for spoiler news. Admittedly, kinda hoped things might just turn up in conversation, but mainly it was just unutterably cool to be back-and-forthing (once a week or so) with an actual professional film writer/director/producer, whose work I admire. [really sorry for all this blathering name-dropping, I swear, but it&#39;s my first and probably only EVER name to possibly drop--YOU try holding back! :) ] *** And that "One tip, though" Alice... jesus, believe me, as soon as I hit Post I thought, "Oh, crap--how pathetic if CB actually read that silliness. SURELY he&#39;d get that the whole stupid &#39;dumped&#39; metaphor was just a humorous metaphor... right? I&#39;m not some sorta obsessive gay stalker?" (that one&#39;s for you, e_k ;) Not to mention worried if sharing it with y&#39;all&#39;d be some sort of breach of unspoken trust, despite the non-specific non-earth-shattering content. (Which, let me re-emphasize, was absolutely fantastic for him to pass along! Ya hear that, CB? Yes, I lick boots.) So, here&#39;s hoping he doesn&#39;t bother looking. Or anyone down there, or at least any of em mind so much if they did. *** Besides, Costa&#39;s obviously just been too busy writing that great article! Which I can now casually compliment him on! You know, after waiting a few days, of course. Like, three. Or four. Hey, I know how it&#39;s done, I saw "Swingers." ;~)

  • May 31, 2002, 5:27 p.m. CST

    Of pointy ears, belly buttons and that Half-elven thang

    by Vanyar

    ***PB: Well, I guess I could fire up the old "Do Elves Have Pointed Ears" debate.....but I won&#39;t. Since we don&#39;t know fer sure that Elves had pointed ears to begin with (I believe they do, based on some linguistical analysis involving hobbit ears and their comparison to elven ears, there&#39;s no way of really knowing if Elros had pointed ears. Who knows, maybe Eru knew from the git go who would make what choice, and gave Elrond pointies, and Elros non-pointies. Or maybe his ears de-volved afterward (doubt it) or maybe .... well you get the idea. ***ArPharazon: Ummm, I guess I figure if Eru can make two elves and make&#39;em brothers, he can give&#39;em navels. I bet ol&#39; Adam had a navel. ***bjarki56: The JRRT letter I was referring to is # 153 (did a look up during lunch). Well gotta run, mellyn.

  • May 31, 2002, 7:41 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    The limericks nearly scared *me* away. But, anyhoo, regarding this that and the other, I think any relationship advice you get from "Swingers" is good, that I just saw FOTR again in the weirdest ass cinema - it was the size of a postage stamp, and I had these two guys sat behind me trying to pick me up in the theatre, the seats were really uncomfortable, the print looked faded and grainy, and the sound really blew... I&#39;m officially looking forward to the DVD extended version now, and what else? I think Elros was probably allowed to keep the ears. After all, ears can hardly decide your lifespan, since hobbits have cute pointy ears and they&#39;re not immortal.

  • June 1, 2002, 12:55 p.m. CST

    It sounds crap, but...

    by minty

    Calm down. We are all talking about movies here. If someone goes to see a certain movie, you shouldn&#39;t feel "sorry" for them. Diffrent people like different things. Alot of people here are violating the thread policy. Why not just accept the fact that people like something you don&#39;t, and continue with your life? LIFE, remember? Geese. This reminds me of a clip i saw on the telly once. A crowd of Star Trek fans and a crowd of Star Wars fans, having a semi riot. The Star Trek fans had purchased a small Yoda toy, and were holding it on a stick, shouting "Where is your Yoda now?!". LOTR was exellent, FOR ME. AOTC was exellent, FOR ME. You have your life, i have mine, they have theirs. *SPAM AWAY! SHOUT ABUSE AT ME FOR BEING HIPPY LIKE, I DON&#39;T CARE*

  • June 1, 2002, 5:22 p.m. CST

    Criticisms of PJ&#39;s LOTR in hindsite

    by pseudoplotinus

    Hi, everyone. On a fluke I went and saw LOTR this week again, just because. It&#39;s been awhile since I last saw it and I think I&#39;m objective enough now to see the points that were problematic, minor though they were. They re-emphasized to me something about why Tolkein&#39;s novel is so difficult to adapt. Firstly, while PJ succeeded terrifically with giving the landscape of Middle Earth a prominent role in the story he did not (I suspect deliberately) give similar emphasis to the people of Middle Earth. I think PJ, by deciding to focus his attention on building the core characters of the Fellowship and secondary characters like Elrond and Galadriel, ended up having to neglect the kind of introductions Tolkein made to the common people populating the societies from which these characters came. It represents, I think, the biggest difference between the film and the movie. Tolkein spends a terrific amount of time up to the flight to the Ford gently introducing the reader to the common Hobbits of Hobbiton, the Elves of the wood and the folk of Bree. He introduced colloquial figures of speech like &#39;Strange as news from Bree&#39; etc, to help ground each of these societies in their own figurative language etc. I believe this is why, for me, the weakest part of the film was up to the meeting with Strider where, in the book, Tolkein spent most of his time building these kinds of introductions. But this sort of difficulty is innate to the cinematic form since a movie has less time to introduce an audience to a vast universe. The other problem I had with the movie, however, wasn&#39;t because of this limitation but because of what I believe was a fundemental misunderstanding of the novel. Most of the posters here will disagree with this. Aragorn&#39;s speech to Gimli and Legolas at the splitting of the Fellowship, though it attempted to give an inspiring note to the events, came off as an encounter group platitude or something one would expect to hear from a motivational speaker. Gimli: &#39;Well then we&#39;re lost. The Fellowship has failed!&#39; Aragorn (placing his hands on the shoulder of both Gimli and Legolas in a manner reminiscent of a school counselor counseling little boys): Not if we hold true to eachother!&#39; Okay that&#39;s not just bad dialogue. That&#39;s a complete misunderstanding of what compels this story. Contrast this to perhaps the best moment in the film. Gandalf&#39;s counsel to Frodo in Moria when Frodo wishes out loud that the events of the ring never happen. &#39;Many who find themselves in such times felt the same way. But that is not for us to decide. What we must do is what we can with the time that is given to us.&#39; This is followed by Gandalf&#39;s declaration that the events of the ring were forordained. And that it was meant to be in the possession of Frodo for a (presumably virtuous)purpose. Not coincidentally, this was a direct quote from the book while Aragorns words were an improvisation of the writers. What this suggests about the attitudes of the script writers and how they contrast with Tolkeins is worth remarking on. PJ and co. have repeated over and over again that they felt the most prominent theme about the story of the ring was friendship. Aragorns improvised speech was a reflection of this conviction. Tolkein on the other hand spent years constructing a metaphysics to his world such that when Gandalf makes his declaration in Moria that Frodo was meant to have the ring the reader knows what Gandalf refers to. The difference is important because friendships occur among the virtuous and the unvirtuous. Aragorns words could just have easily been proclaimed by a Nazi seargent to his men in a moment of defeat and those words could have been just as true. Gandalf&#39;s words though refer to something teleological, external to the relative kinships that exist among the fellowship. What Gandalf is saying is that Frodo&#39;s sacrificial act to take the ring to its destruction is an act that coincides with the ultimate moral purposes guiding the events of Middle Earth. Frodo is acting in the interest of the good. The meaning of the fellowship, therefore, is virtuous not because it is made up of a group of friends, but because it was contrived in order to fulfill this cosmis purpose. Personally I beleive this theme in the novel was one of the things that made it so appealing to modern readers. In a time when the idea of an ultimate purpose to the universe has long since faded away Tolkein gives us a world where it is precisely this feature that subtextually directs all of the moral attitudes of the protagonists. In an existential universe there is nothing more appealing and, infact familiar, than a world that still has an ultimate sense of purpose left intact. What the writers of Aragorns words reveal is that they have a tenuous grasp of this. They knew enough to feature Gandalf&#39;s declaration in the center of the film, but not enough to be able to give Aragorn, in his moment of speechifying, a similarly cosmic sense of events. While it&#39;s a weakness in the movie, it is a fleeting one in its impact. Mostly because the writers re-emphasized Gandalf&#39;s words in that wonderful scene before Frodo crosses the river, and I think therein lied the heart of this film to its, and the writers, credit.

  • June 1, 2002, 6:37 p.m. CST

    Pseudoplotinus and Peevishness

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Interesting point, but not one that interfered with my enjoyment of the film (it is, as you say, fleeting in its impact) particularly, especially since the notion of an outside force driving events is picked up twice elsewhere. The thing that annoys me most about the movie (and this is not a bash, I love it to death, I&#39;ve seen it an embarrassing and almost creepy number of times) is the toning down of Frodo&#39;s physical bravery and prowess, presumably to make his moral bravery more poignant. A good example is the scene on Weathertop. Now, in the movie, Frodo loses it - falling over, Ringwraiths towering over him - he has a spiritual tussle with the wraith (he pulls the Ring away from it) - but ends up getting stabbed. All well and good, but in the book, it all went a bit differently. Frodo gets stabbed while taking a swipe at said wraith&#39;s feet. The other hobbits are lying on the ground with their hands over their heads, if memory serves. Frodo is the toughest, which is only right considering that he&#39;s the eldest, he&#39;s the one that&#39;s been raised by an adventurer, and also that he&#39;s the hero. But that&#39;s not my pet peeve, though it does ache vaguely. My pet peeve is Arwen usurping Frodo&#39;s defiant moment at the Ford, which is not going to be news to any of the Tailenders. The one in the book is simply awesome. Our Hero, nearly overcome by his Morgul wounding, crosses the Ford and at last turns and faces all nine of these wraiths. And he shouts at them. And he waggles his little sword at them. And it&#39;s not going to do ANY good whatsoever, but still he does it. And to me, this scene is awesome, effectively the best one in the first book. All of the moments where Frodo (and later Sam) realise that the best way past a danger is through it are all rivetting to read and I would have thought that they&#39;d be very cinematic (think of Frodo advancing on Shelob with the star-glass, or Sam mounting the stairs in the tower of Cirith Ungol). I think that the reason why I find these moments so cool is that I do identify most with the hobbits, naturally, and Frodo particularly, in his Cary-Grant&#39;s-character-in-"North-by-Northwest" kind of a way, and when I see them do brave things in the face of insuperable odds, even though I know that their tiny arses are going to be kicked into the middle of next week, it makes me think, vicariously, that I could do incredibly brave things in the face of insuperable odds. I probably wouldn&#39;t, but that&#39;s another discussion. So I hate these moments getting altered for two reasons - it robs me of my vicarious glee in seeing Frodo sass the Ringwraiths at the Ford, or charge the troll in Moria, but also, and perhaps more seriously, he&#39;s being altered from the Frodo in the books, the guy I fell in love with. A guy that didn&#39;t kick a whole lot of evil ass, but not for want of trying. Now, in the main, PJ and Co. have done remarkable things with the characters, some of them actually besting the source material - Boromir springs to mind, and Gimli and Legolas. This kind of ties into Pseudo&#39;s post, but I do believe it was the right decision to spend time building the core characters at the expense of some of the verismultitude - I thought the verismultitude came through fine anyway, considering the constraints of cinema. And my worries may be needless - Frodo may get a little more hardcore as things go on. But considering that in the books he actually gets more *helpless* as time goes on and the Ring wears him down, I&#39;m not holding my breath here. Anyway, not my movie, but that&#39;s my biggest, baddest peeve. Happily though I saw in the TTT footage that he does hold Sting and is poking it in someone&#39;s general direction in a somewhat annoyed fashion, so if he at least holds it *once* like he knows what he&#39;s doing with the bloody thing, that would be cool. And that&#39;s all I&#39;m saying. Other than that, I&#39;m even okay with Atomic Galadriel

  • June 1, 2002, 9:11 p.m. CST

    The meaning of Frodo.

    by pseudoplotinus

    Hey Alice. This is from Tom Shippey&#39;s "Author of the Century". Thought it seemed relevant. Certainly provacative. "The question is, what sort of name is Frodo - the one name out of all the prominent hobbit characters in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings which Tolkein does not mention or discuss? Possibly the reason is that Frodo is in a one-member catagory of his own... Froda was the father of the hero Ingeld whose legend the monks of Lindisfarne were censured for listening to; Beowulf refers to Ingeld, once, as &#39;the fortunate son of Froda&#39;, and that is all we ever hear about him in Old English. In Old Norse, though, the exact equivalent of Froda would be Frodi, or Frothi, and this name appears frequently and confusingly ... One thing that is certain, though, is that both Froda and Frothi mean &#39;the wise one&#39; in Old English and Old Norese; and the most prominent of all the Norse Frothis is indeed famous for his wisdom, above all in turning away from war. According to both Saxo Grammaticus and Snorri Sturlson, this Frothi was an exact cotemporary of Christ. During his reign there were no murders, wars, thefts or robbers, and this Golden Age was known as &#39;the peace of Frothi&#39;... One point that may have struck Tolkien is the total contrast between Froda and Ingeld, father and son. The former is a man of peace, the latter the defining image, in the Northern heroic world, of the man who would not give up the obligations of vengeance no matter what this cost him. There is something sad, ironic, and true about the fact that Ingjaldr remained a popular Norse name for generations, and even the monks of Lindisfarne wanted to hear about him, while the story of his peaceful father was rapidly turned into a parable of futility... This composite Froda/Frothi, then, could have been to Tolkien a defining image of the &#39;virtuous pagan&#39;, a glimpse of the sad truth behind heroic illusions, a brief and soon-quenched light shining in the darkness of heathen ages. All this seems strongly relevant to Tolkien&#39;s Frodo. At the start he is, one may say without impoliteness, a &#39;good average&#39; hobbit, no more aggressive than the rest of them - there has never been a murder in the Shire - but capable of self defence. He strikes at the wight in the barrow, tries to stab the Nazgul on Weathertop, stabs the troll in the foot in Moria. He thinks it a pity that Bilbo did not kill Gollum when he had the chance. After Lothlorien, though Frodo&#39;s actions are increasingly ones of restraint. He threatens to stab Gollum at in IV/1, but does not do so, and later on saves him from the archers at &#39;The Forbidden Pool&#39;, against Sam&#39;s strong inclination to say nothing and let him die. He gives Sting away in VI/2, keeping an orc-blade but saying &#39;I do not think it will be my part to strike any blow again&#39;. A few pages later he throws even that weapon away, declaring &#39;I&#39;ll bear no weapon, fair or foul&#39;. By this time Frodo has become almost pacifist. In &#39;The Scouring of the Shire&#39; he speaks up defiantly several times - till the moment when Pippen draws his sword to avenge the squint-eyed ruffian&#39;s insult. Then, though Merry and Sam also draw and go forward in support, &#39;Frodo did not move&#39;. After that he speaks up in defence even of Lotho, reminds the others that &#39;there is to be no slaying of hobbits .. No hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the Shire&#39;, but then in effect withdraws, saying nothing at all in reply to Merry&#39;s &#39;I knew we should have to fight&#39;. At the Battle of Bywater he does not draw sword, and his main concern is to prevent angry hobbits from killing their prisoners. Even in this there is a touch of passivity. Talking to Merry (who disagrees and tells him he cannot save the Shire just by being &#39;shocked and sad&#39;), Frodo is capable of giving an order, &#39;Keep your tempers and hold your hands&#39;. But as the Battle of Bywater approaches, and Merry blows his horn and the bystanders cheer, Frodo seems increasingly sidelined ... All this has its effect on the way he is perceived in the Shire. As said above, Sam is &#39;pained&#39; by the way in which Frodo is supplanted by the large and &#39;lordly&#39; hobbits, Pippin and Merry, and by seeing &#39;how little honour he had in his own country ... One wonders what the minstrel said in the lay of &#39;Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom&#39;, but whatever it was, it was forgotten. The end of Frodo&#39;s quest, in the memory of Middle-earth, is nothing. Bilbo dwindles into &#39;mad Baggins&#39;, a figure of folklore, the elves and dwarves percolate through to our world in legends of shape-shifters and swordmakers ... But of Frodo there remains not a trace: except faint hints of an unlucky, well-meaning, ill-fated king, his reputation eclisped on the one hand by the fame of his vengeful and conventionally heroic son, on the other by the Coming of the true hero Christ, who made &#39;The Peace of Frothi&#39; literally marginal. What has Ingeld to do with Christ, asked (the monk) Alcuin, and the answer is, obviously, &#39;nothing&#39;. But Froda has to do with both, father of one, analogue of the other. He is a hinge, a mediation: and so is Tolkien&#39;s Frodo, the middle-most character in all of Middle-earth."

  • June 2, 2002, 3:42 a.m. CST

    Speaking of pointy ears

    by Conan_the_Humble

    I&#39;ve just finished reading JRRT&#39;s &#39;letters&#39; (again) and I saw in one of them that he describes his view of Hobbits as having," ears only slightly pointed." (p35, Letter 27.) I have never actually noticed this before. I do not know and cannot recall anyone else mentioning this before, but it once and for all clears up the arguments I have seen about Hobbit&#39;s pointy ears, at least in my mind. Now if only I can find that bit about the Balrogs (supposed/actual, take your choice) wings... Cheers.

  • June 2, 2002, 4:45 a.m. CST

    PJ on friendship

    by pseudoplotinus

    From AICN&#39;s 20 questions for PJ ( Question:

  • June 2, 2002, 10:19 a.m. CST

    Ford scene and cinema...

    by Xyzan

    The biggest problem, (and i think reason why it was altered) with the ford scene is that in the books it has a different lead up. The books take at least a chapter to get to the ford scene after Frodo is stabbed, and about 14 days in which to do it. Because of this, there is much more sympathy and determination shown in Frodo&#39;s character. He does not immediately succumb to the knife wound, and is able to continue for a few days, riding bill and climbing on foot when necessary. So the defiance at the ford, as well as his hesitation when the wraiths first appear are more poingnant because he has lasted for so long, and is still fighting against the wound, no matter how futile it is. This can&#39;t work in cinema, because the pace of the movie has to make the scene quick, and they can&#39;t spend days on end climbing up and down hills, because people who weren&#39;t fans already thought some parts were slow. The impression that&#39;s given on screen is that the chase couldn&#39;t have lasted for more than a day, probably because they were riding an elvan horse. (Not entirely sure about that.) Arwen&#39;s scene at the ford fills the gap that would have been left, and makes sure that more people can access the reasons behind the general definace of the wraiths (I&#39;m not sure how much sense i&#39;m making.) Anyway, i think the scene works well in expanding Arwen&#39;s role, because she didn&#39;t come off brillantly in the books, although that&#39;s not a critiscm. On the role of frienshp, i think loyalty is more dominant as a theme, with the idea that the other hobbits are following Frodo out of loyalty and not just friendship. This is shown better with merry + pippin in the books. (i absolutly love the conspiricy unmasked chapter!)

  • June 2, 2002, 4:26 p.m. CST

    Hail Hail the Gang&#39;s all here!...

    by Skyway Moaters

    ...Drop John the foller man ben hard on my track as useral. Don&#39;t have much time to post these days but I just thought I&#39;d drop by to see what was afoot an lo and behold a big smelly crowd of tailenders and other assorted flotsam and jetsam who are all, from what I can see from the quick skim I had before I decided to post, having seen who all had posted... (SM, king of the run-on sentence...), having a grand ol&#39; time bashing AOTC and drooling in anticipation of T2T this December. Haven&#39;t seen AOTC yet. What I&#39;ve seen of T2T looks like a stronger film than FOTR in almost every way. So I guess in the case of this tail end TB, all is pretty much as it should be at this point in the movie release year. All is right with the universe so to speak. Bwa ha ha all you naysayers! Anyway what does it really matter in "real" (read: MONEY) terms (not my personal criteria mind you) if ATOC sucks ? It&#39;s already made something like three hundred (or am I thinking of Spiderman? (which I did see and slept through)) million or some such so far so it&#39;s not like the Star Wars universe or franchise is going to implode or anything. We&#39;ll get another shite film that&#39;s a feast for the eyes and ears in a couple of years to complete the "first trilogy". Is it a trilogy? Hmmm... let&#39;s just examine this here... no no, don&#39;t go there....AARRGG! hmpf... er, where was I? Oh yeah, Anyway a big Huzzah to all the once and future Tolkienoids out there having intelligent conversations and not succumbing to trollish tactics, and the rest-o-yea, shame on you. There&#39;s enough crap in the world without bringing pugilism in here, for the sake of me Aunt Petunia&#39;s knickers! *** I&#39;m going to try a roll call of the AICNLOTRTETB Crowd what I seen here. There&#39;s some Fents Poals betwean these folks. Please forgive me if I forgot any one: morGoth, Vanyar, Elanor Alice in Wonderland, Miami MoFo, Pollando Blue, DufusyteII, Minas Tirith , BG, Conan the Humble(?), even Pseudoplotinus! Er, well anyway my memory isn

  • June 3, 2002, 2:37 a.m. CST

    Hello, there!

    by MirkwoodMaiden

    Hi everyone! I&#39;m new to this site and after reading some of the great LotR reviews, thought I&#39;d start posting on the TB here! I have some comments I wanna make about the books but right now I&#39;m down-out tired, so I&#39;ll get back on here later. For the moment though, I thought I&#39;d give everyone this address, I found this online and love it. It&#39;s the full FotR script, word for word, including all the elvish phrases. When you enter the site, click on &#39;The Fellowship of the Ring&#39; and then the first choice on the next page is, &#39;The complete script&#39;. Enjoy! Namarri! ~You will find adventure,or adventure will find you.

  • June 3, 2002, 3:08 p.m. CST

    Pardon the interruption: "The Art Of The Fellowship Of The Ring"

    by Pallando Blue

    No time to read, no time to write, but just gotta jump in and say, it&#39;s on shelves now so GET A COPY! Too amazing for a quick "Oh, COOL!" Too many great things in there! Phenomenal! Sorry, please to continue whatever I may have interrupted. Continue, AFTER you get yourself a copy of THE ART OF THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING! [PB&#39;s bookjacket blurb: "&#39;The Art of the Fellowship of the Ring&#39; makes &#39;The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring Official Movie Guide&#39; look like the &#39;The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring Visual Companion&#39;!"]

  • June 3, 2002, 7:58 p.m. CST

    Obligations to friends versus duty

    by pseudoplotinus

    Elanor thanks for your thoughtful post. I think the following thoughts might help put a finer point on the concerns I mentioned earlier. I might suggest that infact Tolkien didn&#39;t leave out the fate of the ring in Aragorn&#39;s deliberation, rather he includes it when Aragorn declares "My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left." Aragorn reveals that his deliberations of what to do were primarily cocerned with whether his obligation to help the quest of the ring required him to hunt down Frodo. His statement suggests that he took Frodo&#39;s flight from the fellowship as a verdict of Fate and that the fellowship had therefore played its part and that he, Gimli and Legolas were now free to save Merry and Pippin. Note how this contrasts with PJ&#39;s version. In the movie Aragorn LETS Frodo go, thus the flight of the Ring Bearer from the Fellowship was not something that had occurred despite Aragorn&#39;s efforts but rather by his personal assent. In this context Aragorn could not interpret the loss of Frodo as the operations of destiny beyond his control. And so he could not declare with the same metaphysical conviction that "The company has played its part" only that he had decided so by letting Frodo go. Ergo, when Gimli declares the Fellowship has failed, Aragorn responds &#39;not if we stay true to eachother&#39; what he really means (or atleast what his words imply) is that HE has decided the obligations of the fellowship have ended, and that they&#39;re efforts are better directed in saving Merry and Pippin. Only then does his statement &#39;not if we stay true to eachother&#39; make sense, since, if the purpose of the fellowship was infact to see Frodo all the way to Mt Doom, then infact the Fellowship DID fail. The Fellowship had a single purpose - to assist Frodo in his quest to Mount Doom and the destruction of The One Ring. While staying true to one another is important for the existence of the fellowship or any fellowship for that matter, this quality is secondary to the &#39;Prime Directive&#39; for which the fellowship was originally built. Aragorn&#39;s words then come off as a kind of self justification for a decision HE had unilaterally made rather than a choice made in light of the solemn obligation for which he was to oversee and for which only a dictate greater than that of the council could overturn. Thus a decision that in Tolkien was made in light of the direction of greater forces than were in Aragorn&#39;s control, in the movie becomes a decision by personal fiat. While we might agree with Aragorn&#39;s decision in the movie, I don&#39;t think the fact that the nature of the decision had been seriously altered can be denied. And I would suggest the nature of that alteration makes Aragorn&#39;s decision in the movie appear fairly arbitrary by comparison to the one in the novel or the decision Frodo makes before crossing the river. The difference being that the latter two were decided in light of a higher obligation to which they were called, the former by a flip flop on where the ultimate purposes of the fellowship rested.

  • June 4, 2002, 1:42 a.m. CST

    Hello, once again,......

    by MirkwoodMaiden

    I&#39;m glad you&#39;ve enjoyed the site! I myself continously read over the script. I saw the movie so many times I can picture every scene in my head.**MorGoth-I think it was you who posted about the elvish sounding band at nickelcreek. After you mentioned that you put down the LotR soundtrack to listen to this band, I had to go see. I only heard a bit, but thought it was wonderful. Also, the picture with Aragron and the archers-I hope that they are Rohirrim, because it would dissapoint me greatly if PJ has elves (beside Legolas) fighting at Helm&#39;s Deep. (though I don&#39;t think he would) I&#39;ve seen some elvish phrases on this TB that I couldn&#39;t quite depict, so I was wondering if someone may have found a site (book, or anything) that teaches elvish, or has a list of words. I&#39;ve heard it&#39;s possible to learn the speech, and would really love to myself. Must be off now, Namarri! ~ You will find adventure, or adventure will find you.

  • June 4, 2002, 12:20 p.m. CST

    I vote we stay here, oh and Welcome, MirkwoodMaiden

    by Vanyar

    I think we should go on Tailending right where we are. Now, who&#39;s with me? Har-har, matey, sounds like dialogue from a cheesy old swashbuckler. *** MirkwoodMaiden, Thrice welcome!!! Elen sila lumenn omentielvo!! As long as you can ignore the occasional trolling fanorc, I think you will find this corner of Harry&#39;s drivespace a very hospitable place, full of good plain hobbit-sense. *** All, I think some very good points have been made on both (several?) sides of the Aragorn&#39;s-decison-to-rescue-the-Hobbits-the-orcs issue, why he made it in the movie and the book, and the morale impetus behind the various versions. I believe that it probably is just a matter of PJ trying to reach the unread masses in a very clear manner. It is unfortunate that some of the more subtle (yet pervasive) aspects of JRRT&#39;s moral unpinnings in LOTR had to be submerged in the process, but I think the film still carries an awful lot of solid moral gravitas. Say, I was emailing my bud morGoth and the question came up regarding the Special Extended Version of the DVD (NO, NO!! No more cracks about "extended" I beg you!!) [X^P I have read four or so previews/reviews of the SEV DVD and none of them have mentioned anything about an additions to the Last Alliance prologue scene. I hope that doesn&#39;t mean it ISN&#39;T going to be expanded, because that would be a true shame IMHO. What say y&#39;all? Anybody heard any confirmation one way or the other? Namarie, mellyn.

  • June 4, 2002, 1:40 p.m. CST

    So, are we staying here, or what?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    "Well, I&#39;m back." - I&#39;ve been off getting wrecked in honour of a woman celebrating her mere existence, Gawd bless &#39;er. Sorry, I am creature of distinctly republican tendencies. My Dad always says the French had the right idea on royalty. Pseudo! Cheers, interesting article - I should get around to reading Shippey one day. I always interpreted Frodo&#39;s withdrawal and marginalisation at the end of the book as a sign that he was a creature of the third age, and hence, like the Elves and Istari, his time was essentially over. Elanor - "Had he been shown as strong enough to defy The Nine at that moment, there would be little need for a Council or a Fellowship. Frodo could simply kick butt all the way to Mordor" - well, no, I don&#39;t think he could have kicked butt all the way to Mordor, but he could indeed have defied the Nine, albeit very unsuccessfully. The fact that he tries is the cool bit. But I do agree with you on how they emphasize his bravery in other ways. Xyzan - I suppose you&#39;re right, but that doesn&#39;t mean I have to like it!

  • June 4, 2002, 11:05 p.m. CST

    Hello, MirkwoodMaiden.

    by BG

    There are many sites on the net that can teach you Elvish. Here is a good starting point

  • June 4, 2002, 11:26 p.m. CST

    Since everybody else...

    by BG

    ...has given their (long-winded) take on Aragorn, here&#39;s mine: He&#39;s just an ordinary bloke trying to make his way in the Universe ;-)

  • June 5, 2002, 5:19 a.m. CST

    I side with Vanyar, let us stay here

    by Sir Mordred

    And keep tailending as we always have. Nice to see that Vanyar is back... nothing like a film to be released to get rid of trolls. Honestly, I haven&#39;t read any of these things... I&#39;m just procrastinating, and thought I&#39;d come back here. It&#39;s just that irc is easier than this... and has much faster results. Now, don&#39;t lynch me yet, but I have problems with PJ&#39;s LotR. I frankly just didn&#39;t like it. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s a good film. Of course I&#39;m going to be forced to elaborate on this... but well... I don&#39;t want to at this moment. I will, however, probably buy that exorbant DVD set- I want those bookends.

  • June 5, 2002, 5:23 a.m. CST

    Elves at HD- clarification

    by Sir Mordred

    From various spy reports- some from a certain female with a corn on the cob up her arse- we&#39;ve known for quite a while that elves are at Helm&#39;s Deep. Not sure why... but it&#39;s what they decided, I guess it can show more love between Arwen and Aragorn- because I think she&#39;s there too. And as for the Elvish armor- I&#39;m going to pull a Michael Martinez and say that it&#39;s all wrong. However, let me say that these and further qualms I have with the adaptation are not the reasons I dislike FotR, I simply don&#39;t think it&#39;s a good film, taken in its own.

  • June 5, 2002, 7:07 a.m. CST

    Why thank &#39;ee kindly, morGoth

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    and there I was feeling rejected for not being a "proper tailender", and I get a fine compliment like "irrepresible". Yer a gent, and no mistake. *** Elven phrases: here&#39;s a site I found useful: language/phrase.htm take out the space. *** Hmm, do Elves play folk music? Why not, but they probably listen to Jimi Hendrix when the camera is pointed away. I missed my chance to pick up a copy of Donald Swann&#39;s collaboration with Tolkien, but I&#39;ve got the Bo Hannson 70&#39;s concept album, a Moog masterpiece that almost makes Yes sound like the Pistols. Personally I suspect the Lothlorien house band sounds like Dead Can Dance. *** Aragorn: aside from agreeing with BG, I&#39;m really glad they added the self-doubt angle - hopefully it&#39;ll save him from turning into the pompous twat that he becomes by the end of ROTK.

  • June 5, 2002, 8:11 a.m. CST


    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I&#39;ll qualify that - Aragorn and Boromir fit the profile of the famous "spilled coffee" experiment in interpersonal attraction (Aronson, Willerman, & Floyd, 1966). Everyone likes the smart, cool guy, nobody likes the loser, because everyone wants to identify with the smart, cool guy. PJ just gives Aragorn the chance to spill some coffe, making him less perfect and therefore more likable. I always preferred Boromir in the book, because he already turns up coffee-stained. WARNING: CONTENTIOUS VIEWPOINT (TROLLING): Aronson states that people with low self-esteem invariably prefer the flawless example, as a stereotypical "hero" to look up to and admire, rather than identify with. Does this fuel the basement dwelling virgin stereotype? On an aside, how does Tolkien&#39;s treatment of courtly love compare with Chaucer&#39;s destruction of the archetype in various Tales? If Joseph Campbell is on the money, where is Aragorn&#39;s otherworld? Lorien, or the paths of the dead? * Doesn&#39;t matter really. From now on, Sam is the hero of this story.

  • June 5, 2002, 8:17 a.m. CST

    And to prove that point and conclude this trilogy, I offer you a

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    In western lands * Beneath the sun * The flowers may rise in Spring, * The trees may bud, * The waters run, * The merry finches sing. * Or there may be tis cloudless night * And swaying beeches bear * The Elven stars as jewels white * Amid their branching hair. * Though here at journey&#39;s end I lie * In darkness buried deep, * Beyond all towers strong and high, * Beyond all mountains steep, * Above all shadows rides the Sun * And Stars for ever dwell. * I will not say the Day is done, * Nor bid the Stars farewell. *

  • June 5, 2002, 10:05 a.m. CST

    Nice, SpacePerv...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    ...but I bet it doesn&#39;t make it to the movie. (Sigh)

  • June 5, 2002, 10:14 a.m. CST


    by Pallando Blue

    In my heart I am mostly naked painted red white & blue running through the streets hooting with a flag tied around my neck. I mean HOLY SHIT ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ...In the real world, however, I&#39;m far too tired. This is the other reason I haven&#39;t been posting much lately, or reading/contributing to the ongoing conversations (sorry)--I&#39;m either swamped at work, or stealing 2-hour non-REM naps, or watching live World Cup matches bleary-eyed and over-caffeinated during the Eastern Standard Time vampire hours. WE JUST FUCKING BEAT PORTUGAL 3-2! Do ANY of my fellow Americans realize just how HUGE that is??? 8~D *** Now then, back on topic, Welcome back Sir M but MAN are you about to take a drubbing for not liking PJ&#39;s li&#39;l movie! I&#39;ll let the others have a go atcha foist ;) *** Bits and pieces of other posts (whose I dunno): I think perhaps people ARE overthinking the movie, and even the book. As for Aragorn&#39;s decision being on the personal rather than universal scale, I think unfairly fetters the notion of how Higher Powers at Work operate. As he ascends to his proper station over the course of three movies I think his actions in FOTR will be better informed, and Aragorn himself will be revealed as more than just an action hero, but as much a "choice" by the Other Forces At Work as Frodo&#39;s inheriting the Ring. And that is a very comforting thought. *** That Shippey quote on the name "Frodo" is interesting, but, in the light of currently reading HOME:HOLOTR, sorta odd. In LOTR&#39;s drafts, Frodo&#39;s role was originally "Bingo Bolger-Baggins" and he was accompanied [until the Old Forest, when "Marmaduke" (to be Meriadoc) joined] by his friends Odo and Frodo Took. At this point, being a mere children&#39;s hobbit-tale sequel, there hadn&#39;t been much linguistical effort toward character names ("Bingo" was the name of a bear family in the Tolkien kids&#39; storybooks). It seems at that point the Prof was choosing fun-sounding hobbit first names, last names being more inimical to his sense of their culture, as far as CT&#39;s presenting it thus far. Who knows, maybe when the Tale finally turns the corner into Epic and the star-hobbit&#39;s name becomes Frodo, it&#39;s with those etymological roots Shippey details in JRRT&#39;s mind. But at the moment, it surely looks to me, he just eventually decided that the story was to be taken far more seriously than a hero named "Bingo" would allow. *** Oh, and by the way, THE UNITED STATES JUST BEAT PORTUGAL 3 TO 2 IN FIRST ROUND WORLD CUP PLAY ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! So please forgive my sketchy responses above, I may not be any clearer in my thoughts for a few more weeks yet %~D

  • June 5, 2002, 10:23 a.m. CST

    I don&#39;t know what word I meant, really

    by Pallando Blue

    But it surely wasn&#39;t "inimical" up there. Man sleep-deprivation does weird things to my head. Someone feel free to replace it with the correct-sounding vocab. Maybe "amenable"? but now 20 sec. later I forget the context. I&#39;m too busy refilling my mug and surfing the international (english-speaking) websites for reactions to the INCREDIBLE UPSET THE U.S. JUST DID TO PORTUGAL wheeee! And fake work for 7 more hours then sleeeeeeeeeeeeep

  • June 5, 2002, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Offside post

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I too am pleased at your victory, Pallando, since I drew USA in our office sweepstake and earned scorn and derision. Ah Ha-har!

  • June 5, 2002, 1:48 p.m. CST

    Tolkien contra courtly love.

    by pseudoplotinus

    Spaceperv, for what it&#39;s worth, Tolkien apparently hated the French and their influence on English lit I suspect including courtly love, a French contrivance. I actually read Aragorn and Arwen as a kind of anti courtly statement. The role of passion in their relationship is sublimated (to put it lightly) and the social obstacle to their love, Elrond&#39;s demand that Aragorn be a king, instead of being defied by Aragorn in the name of his passion for Arwen, which was the typical expression of passion in courtly love best demonstrated in the founding courtly myth Tristan and Isolde, was rather accepted by Aragorn and accomplished. In LOTR Tolkien affirms duty and obligation along with love, he doesn&#39;t oppose duty TO love, a la Tristan, Lancelot etc. Secondly, and I have to get this off my chest, Joseph Campell was the worste kind of pretender to mythological insight. He was the Oprah Winfrey of Myth. Please don&#39;t diminish Tolkien by suggesting Campell has anything to offer in understanding him. There, that should get the Tailend moving!

  • June 5, 2002, 3:31 p.m. CST

    Courtly lu-u-u-rve

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Hey Pseudo, always an interesting post... I agree completely - my (very) dim memories of "The Silmarillion" also seem to support the statement. In a sense, love is not love unless it also takes honour into account. Without it, it becomes merely passion or lust. And bingo too on Joseph Campbell - his "Hero of a Thousand Faces" was one of those books I&#39;d been told to read for years, and when I got around to it, boy was I underwhelmed. None of the observations seemed anything more than too general to be useful in any way or so anecdotal that you couldn&#39;t really assess them. I couldn&#39;t believe people rated it so well.

  • June 5, 2002, 4:31 p.m. CST

    Oh Morrrrrrdreeeeeeeed, ju got some splainin to do!!!

    by Vanyar

    Sir M, I will rant and rave about your dislike of PJs FOTR as I have no idea what it is you don;t like about it. So please, kind sirrah, Illucidate. Explain, in at least a little bit of detail, what it is about the film that you find objectionable. Sounds like it is more how it was realised than the liberties taken with the origianl that has you miffed. I&#39;m really interested to know your viewpoint. What is it about the way the film was put together that has your sensibilities rankled. Illuminate the page, Sir Knight. Namarie, mellon.

  • June 5, 2002, 4:33 p.m. CST

    Oh crud, Sir M!

    by Vanyar

    What I meant was, " I will NOT rant and rave..." Sheesh, Vanyar, proofread for goodness sake! And me a professional editor. Scary it is, precioussss.

  • General C: Not to take away from your comments about the flaws in FOTR (and yes, there are many), but thought I should clarify something about the Uruk-hai. *** Comment 1. UBER ORCS....well, sorta. They are not some elite fighting force (e.g., "Special Forces"). They are simply orcs bred with men to produce larger, stronger orcs who can stand daylight. They are not particularly awesome in combat. Orcs in general do indeed die like flies when facing skilled warriors (Gondorians, Rohirrim, Elves). I think Denethor even makes a comment when Gandalf is talking to him about Boromir&#39;s stand against the orcs that he [Denethor] is surprised his son was defeated with "only orcs to withstand him." Also keep in mind that the band Merry & Pippin is amongst on its way to Isengard is comprised of three groups (Mordor orcs, Saruman&#39;s Uruks, and Goblin orcs from the Misty Mountains. ***Comment 2. DEAD ORCS...well, almost. As for "dead" orcs in the film stirring, looking about and lying back down, they aren&#39;t dead, but "dying." I think PJ was just being a bit more realistic than some movies. Death not always instant in edged-weapon combat. Bleeding to death is fairly common. OK, enough of my blathering. Hope that didn&#39;t come across as stuffy and pedantic. Namarie, mellon.

  • June 5, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    A few thoughts,........

    by MirkwoodMaiden

    Hullo, and thank&#39;ee kindly! ***BG, SpacePerve, & others-Many thanks for the sites! I am completely entranced by the elves & everything JRRT has made them to be. Thanks for the translation MorGoth! ***Helm&#39;s Deep-Aiya, elves as Helm&#39;s Deep. I&#39;m not horribly dissapointed, just curious, is all. Though I would never be in objection to seeing an elf, I do wonder why PJ thought it was necessary to place them in the battle. Probably for the sake of movie-goers whose thoughts of the Arwen and Aragorn romance might dwendle if Arwen and some elven companions do not appear much in TTT. Hmmm,...who knows? Maybe the effect of elves at Helm&#39;s Deep will not be as great as I am percieving. Let us hope! ***Aragorn at the Great River - Just my slight thought on the on-going subject, I belive all of the statements (as many sided as they are) have been very well thought. I think I go with the basic standing opinion that Aragorn is shown pushing away such a great temptation so as the movie-goers & non-readers who do not get the oppurtunity to see the depth and courage throughout the books (which is gone into more thoroughly), can understand and relate more-so to Aragorn and the strength in his character. If in the books Aragorn had been faced with the DIRECT descion to let Frodo go, he would have done the same as he did in the movie. That is obvious to those who have read the books and gathered his depth and personality. But maybe, without the direct showing of him &#39;letting&#39; Frodo go, it is a less obvious action to those who have not read the books. (who have not already related with his character so strongly) I think PJ was correct in his portrayl of the scene (for the sake of the deprived non-readers). But yes, Sam is now the hero of the trilogy. ***Aiya, ayes! If anyone wants it, here is the 4 minute trailor that was shown at the end of FotR for a couple weeks. I am sure most of you have found this already, but here it lies if you have not! The graphics are pretty bad, for it was sneakily recorded in the theatre, yet, it is what&#39;s avalible to us for the time. Alas, my fellow Tolkienoids, amin must be off! Namarri! ~ You will find adventure, or adventure will find you.

  • June 5, 2002, 8:51 p.m. CST

    Um... Bjarki... which story at TORN?

    by BG

    Can you please post a URL.

  • June 5, 2002, 10:11 p.m. CST

    Thanks Bjarki.

    by BG

    ***Spoilers*** That post certainly explains all the rumours and reports that have come out about TTT. It fits in so well with what we already know that I&#39;d say its credibility was pretty high. It explains why there are elves at HD and also why Arwen isn&#39;t. It also explains Saruman&#39;s death. I remember a couple of people speculating that Grima may push Saruman from his balcony when the Wizard on a spike pic first appeared. I don&#39;t have any strong objections to any of the changes, but I can&#39;t think of any good reason why PJ needed to have elves at HD. Originally I thought the reason was to allow Arwen to appear at HD, but if she&#39;s not there, why do you need any elves there?

  • June 5, 2002, 11:51 p.m. CST

    Why there are elves at Helms Deep - a theory.

    by pseudoplotinus

    BG, if you recall from the site Bjiarki referred us to, Haldir is the leader of the elves to Rohan (the elf with the wicked nose who dissed Gimli at Lorien). And it&#39;s Haldir who ends up getting killed in battle thus requiring (drum roll please) Aragorn to lead the elves against the Uruk Hai, and so progresses the character of Aragorn as PJ conceived him - a man of great capacity but even greater self doubt being lead (by circumstances or by FATE?) to his roll of leader and eventually King. It&#39;s clear that in PJ&#39;s conception LOTR will be as much about Aragorn growing into his roll as it is for Frodo into his roll as Ring Bearer. I think the events at HD have been changed in order to demonstrate this progress in Aragorns character in a more vivid manner.

  • June 5, 2002, 11:55 p.m. CST

    Major TTT spoilers.

    by BG

    ***Spoilers!!!*** 3. How do the Uruks/Orcs at the begining work? Do a group of Mordor orcs led by Grishnakh meet up with them? Grishnakh is there, though there is no mention of him being from Mordor. He and Ugluk argue for a bit, then Ugluk cuts his head off (what is it with these Uruks?). Ugluk remains in charge until he is killed by Eowyn at Helms Deep. Eowyn is not left in charge of Edoras as she is in the book, the reason being there is no Dunharrow, and the Paths of the Dead are awfully close to Helms Deep. Aragorn never returns to Edoras. Thus, Eowyn goes with them when the Rohirrim ride to Helms Deep. She stays with Theoden, mostly, and only kills Ugluk when he breaches the inner walls. For huge amounts of spoilers go here and check out the posts by Nilson_the_White.

  • June 6, 2002, 12:35 a.m. CST


    by BG

    I don&#39;t see why that requires elves. Why can&#39;t one of the Rohirrim commanders get killed forcing Aragorn to take command of the Rohirrim?

  • June 6, 2002, 1:51 a.m. CST


    by pseudoplotinus

    Because presumably the whole hierarchy of Edoras was present ergo if a captain of Rohan dies there is still his superior who can lead, and if he dies then the next one all the way up to king Theoden himself. I suspect the Elven army will have no one of appropriate stature to replace Haldir ergo Aragorn is in a situation where he is forced to lead. This is all speculative of course, but as a theory it could explain the presence of the elves.

  • June 6, 2002, 5:58 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    This link to the spoilers... someone who&#39;s read it - tell me honestly if I should look at it. Because it all sounds rather terrifying...

  • June 6, 2002, 6:40 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I can&#39;t get either of those links now... someone must have copied this stuff... gah! The minute I sod off from a TB it gets interesting! Bah!

  • June 6, 2002, 6:41 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    ...this TB must have smelled my fear.

  • June 6, 2002, 9:10 a.m. CST

    Order Hosery

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Wow. I can&#39;t get either of those links up. Shit. Ooh. I feel all funny.

  • June 6, 2002, 9:13 a.m. CST

    Having a MENTAL day today

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    We don&#39; need no steenking screen breaks. Don&#39;t need no steenking spoilers, either, so I&#39;ll pass on all this. It&#39;s great that the film will have a few surprises for me, and I never expected or even wanted 100% faithful. *** Pseudoplotinus, Alice, I&#39;m going to briefly defend Campbell. He provides a useful tool for studying an archetype, which must not be mistakenly used as a cookie cutter. Despite claims to the contrary, Tolkien created literature not myth, so you can equally find themes explored in The Golden Bough and also The White Goddess, but not as an overriding feature. Then again, I think these are many stories, not one. I&#39;m suggesting Campbell has something to offer in understanding Aragorn, particularly the one in the film. Going back to courtly love, I&#39;m afraid I&#39;m scratching my head over your post. Courtly love aims to be chaste, and distinct from sexual love. It&#39;s the one about wearing your ladies favour and doing the great deed thing, hence courtly love is specifically about duty and obligation, not passion. Sounds like Aragorn to me. That&#39;s the one that became popular after the Norman conquest, and was spectacularly deconstructed by Henryson in "The Testament of Cresseid" and also by Chaucer in his portrayal of Gawain as a rapist in the Wife of Bath&#39;s tale. CS Lewis&#39;s later definition of courtly love as adulterous refers to the real, rather than the ideal (much like Victorian notions of morality). Fair enough, Andreas Capellanus is ambiguous because he bangs on about chastity and having an affair in the same sentence. Taking this back to Aragorn, he fits the profile perfectly: chaste, discreet, honourable, driven, and damn me if he doesn&#39;t go onto Pelennor field with his Lady&#39;s favour. IMHO.

  • June 6, 2002, 11:50 a.m. CST

    Don&#39;t expect sense right now

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I&#39;ve spent the whole day getting my brain fried by cretins. Afternoon bjarki, and I don&#39;t think I&#39;ll be crossing swords with you on anything to do with Lewis. Take that as a compliment to your scholarship. However I still maintain that courtly love purports to be chaste and virtuous, even if only on the surface; although I suspect CL is as fictitious as the golden age of chivalry (just look at how the early Plantagenets behaved). Anyway, the sedge might not have withered from the lake yadda yadda but Aragorn does pine as much as his stiff spine will let him - there&#39;s that scene among the Mallorns. Chaucer, I always felt, championed sexual love over courtly love (read also "robust peasant love"). His ultimate expression of the courtly lover is Absolon! Anyway, you&#39;ve highlighted an interesting literary connection to me. The Wife of Bath&#39;s Tale is a variant on the sovereignty stories (Grome Somer Joure, Knight of Summer&#39;s Day), much later addressed by Tolkien in Gawain and the Green Knight, an old skool romance if ever there was. Tolkien must have read something else before diving into the Elder Edda.

  • June 6, 2002, 5:29 p.m. CST


    by BG

    ...I&#39;ve compiled all of Nilson&#39;s spoilers into a single document if anybody wants me to send it to them (don&#39;t bother sending an email to the address under my handle, it became obsolete years ago). Second, isn&#39;t it nice to be agonising over movie spoilers again? Well... for nostalgia value at least :-) Now... morGy ***spoilers*** I can think of a reason for giving Sam&#39;s line to Faramir, albeit a pretty flimsy one. That line would mean more and have a greater impact coming from a human warrior who, presumably, has just killed the very man he is talking about. I think most audience members would already know what Sam&#39;s (or any of the Hobbits) views about war and men killing men would be. That line would say a lot about Faramir&#39;s character. OK... I know it&#39;s a pretty flimsy excuse for a story change, but at least I can think of an excuse, I&#39;m still buggered if I can think of any reason to have elves at HD (sorry pseudo, I&#39;m still not convinced. In the book didn&#39;t Aragorn practically take charge of the Rohirrim anyway? I remember him issuing orders. )

  • June 6, 2002, 6:21 p.m. CST


    by DufusyteII

    Since it has been a while since I have read the books, I probably wouldn&#39;t even recognize a change if I saw one, which is precisely why I have not read the books in a while, so that the changes will not drive me crazy like they drive you folk crazy. ******* The important thing is to keep any additional material within the bounds of what we already know about characters and events in the book. For example, if you add scenes with a character, the character should behave in a way that is consonant with their personality in the book. The best kind of changes/additions is where you add material that was not mentioned in the book, and also was not Contradicted in the book, such that it fills in a gap where the book was silent. A perfect example of this is Aragorn, Boromir, and Arwen at the shards of Narsil: the scene was not described in the book, but also it is not contradicted, such that one may very well imagine that it actually occured in the book events, but simply was passed over in silence by Tolkien. ******* As for Saruman attacking Rivendell, it is fairly consonant with the aggressive development of the war in general, I mean, the forces of darkness do tend to attack things. In the book they attacked Lorien, so it is reasonably imaginable that they would attack Rivendell as well, perhaps because it was an easier target. Mind you, Saruman in the movie is a full-fledged ally of Sauron, which is already a considerable departure from the book, where Saruman was an independent war-lord type maverick. I think this in itself is the greater change worth howling about. As for what cities Saruman attacks, it is relatively insignificant, compared to the fact that Saruman&#39;s whole political place in MiddleEarth has been changed to that of an Ally of Sauron in Fellowship. If you wanted to howl, you should have howled last year. As for the Rivendell biz, it is peanuts compared to the Sauron-Saruman alliance bit. ******* Tolkien&#39;s world is subtle, and Tolkien&#39;s geopolitics are subtly nuanced, and that is what makes his world real. All the bad guys in the book are not allies of each other. All the good guys also are often at odds with each other (elves vs dwarves, Rohan vs Gondor, etc). Indeed, the fact that the Good Guys manage to come together at the Battle of Pellenor Fields is itself a major accomplishment, namely, that they were able to leave their differences behind and strive for a common cause. By making Saruman a full fledged ally of Sauron, it flattens Tolkien&#39;s world considerably, and steamrollers the nuances of the Baddies. Instead of having a multi-faceted power struggle among the forces of darkness, we get merely a Black Hat vs White Hat shoot em up. It&#39;s Cowboys vs Indians, and all the Indians are on one side, and all the Cowboys are on the other. I understand that the scriptwriters simplify the nuances in order to not confuse the audience with too many subtleties, but I think that everybody could have handled an Independent power-monger Saruman. It&#39;s not such a hard concept for people to grasp. ******* One reason for adding Rivendell stuff into TTT may be to build upon the Characters and Places that are already familiar to the audience from Fellowship. Since Rivendell has been introduced and established in the audience&#39;s mind, it would be a wasteful pity to simply never show Rivendell again. Same with Agent Elrond: he was one of the more striking characters in Fellowship, and it would be a pity for him not to get anymore screentime in TTT. Plus, he makes it feel like all this is taking place in the Matrix, which adds another level of mystery to the film. Will Frodo be unplugged at the end of rotk and realize he is sitting in a pod of hatcheries, and all MiddleEarth is a dream - an elaborate virtual world designed to oppress the masses? We won&#39;t know how PJ plays it until the final installment. I am keeping a close eye on Agent Elrond in the meantime. I believe I saw some green lighting on him... ******* So, in conclusion, I am not phazed by the sack of Rivendell, but I think the greater crime is the flattening of Saruman&#39;s political position as a standard ally of Sauron. If there is one major theme in Tolkien, it is not Friendship, rather it is Folk Must Leave Behind Differences to Unite for Common Action. MiddleEarth is a nuanced world where everybody has a niche and everybody is vaguely antagonistic to their neighbors, whether it is the Shire vis a vis Bree, or the Ents vis a vis Bipeds, Rohan vis a vis Gondor, or Saruman vs Sauron. Even the Blackriders seem on the verge of revolt if they could throw off their lord. The novel is about all these diverse groups dropping their differences and fighting for a common cause, and it brings a tear to the eye to see each occasion where the divergent groups unite in common action. The forces of good manage to ally themselves. The forces of evil never do: Saruman and Sauron never become allies in the book. This is a lesson in itself, because Evil tends to be more divergent than Good is. Tolkien draws from catholic theology, where the angels are united in a common bond, but the demons fight among themselves viciously, just as much as they fight against God. Hell is not United, but it is a place of internecine factions, and factious in-fighting. The most vicious spells are Witch vs Witch. The various camps of evil fight among themselves, and Tolkien certainly echoed that in MiddleEarth. It is a pity, and very un-Tolkienesque, to have the forces of evil united (Sauron and Saruman), indeed, in the film the Baddies are more united than the Goodies, since the friction between Elves-Dwarves-Men is all too apparent. Alas, the theological resonance of Tolkien has gone unrecognized by the filmmakers, and has been unwittingly stripped away. I think the good professor would be highly miffed about this Unity of Evil, much moreso than he would care about a campaign against Rivendell.

  • June 6, 2002, 6:51 p.m. CST

    The Phantom Edit

    by DufusyteII

    To preserve Saruman as an Independent Warlord, Dufusyte gets out his editing scissors and makes just a few snips. Snip #1: The two second scene where Sauron says to Saruman through the Palantir, "Build me an army worthy of Mordor" gets cut out. Instead, you just have the orcs hobble into Saruman&#39;s office and he says, "We have work to do." This makes the building of the army Saruman&#39;s own initiative, rather than taking orders from Sauron. A nice clean cut. Snip #2: During Saruman&#39;s conversation with Gandalf, snip out the line where Saruman says, "We must join forces with Sauron," etc. Ok, this would get messy, since there is alot of references to Sauron in the Saruman-Gandalf scenes, also on top of Orthanc. Then again, these scenes, together with the break dancing, were "not the highlight of the film," or to put it another way, "were some of the weakest footage in the film," so we can feel free to make vigorous use of the scissors. Keep in mind that in the book, these scenes are not played out in realtime, but only recounted secondhand by Gandalf. Perhaps there is virtue in that. I say, leave most of the Saruman-Gandalf dialog on the cutting room floor. Just have Gandalf visit, let them chat amiably, let Saruman say a couple evil lines without mentioning Sauron, let him close the doors on Gandalf and send him up into the rafters. People will get the impression that Saruman has become something of a madman, which is pretty true to the book. Then Saruman builds his army, he visits Gandalf on the rooftop, once again we edit out the dialog mentioning Sauron, and just let the madman hang Gandalf over the edge as though he is going to dispatch him, and then the eagle swoops to the rescue. If the audience thinks that Saruman&#39;s actions are not very rational, and not well thought out, and that he is something of a chaotic madman, then they get the same impression that the book presents. He is Saruman of Many Colors, the psychedelic wildcard. Just a few snips would restore his character. ******* As for TTT, that would probably require massive snips, since there is much more Saruman-Sauron material there. Ah well. The Phantom Editing Scissors are sharpening up.

  • June 6, 2002, 6:54 p.m. CST


    by BG;s obvious you haven&#39;t read the book in a while, because you&#39;re wrong. Saruman and Sauron are indeed allied in the book. They both fully intended to betray each other, but while it suited their purposes they were allied. Why do you think they communicated with each other via their palantirs? The attack on the fellowship at Amon Hen was a coordinated attack, with orcs from Sauron and Saruman. When Pippin looked in the palantir and saw Sauron, Sauron was pleased and said he would send a Nazgul to collect the prisoner. Odd behaviour if Sauron and Saruman weren&#39;t working together, don&#39;t you think?

  • June 6, 2002, 7:39 p.m. CST

    quit spoiling all the fun

    by DufusyteII

    Another benefit of not reading the books is that I can remember them however I want to suit my purposes. Please stop interrupting me with reality.

  • June 6, 2002, 7:59 p.m. CST

    Argh! I&#39;m going MAD!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I&#39;m much too psyched out to expose myself to Dufy&#39;s post(s) - I need to know what was in those spoilers or I&#39;m going to chew my own leg off. Both of those links were down, last time I checked. Can somebody help me out? (Makes big hobbit eyes) Pretty please?

  • June 6, 2002, 8:40 p.m. CST

    Alice, check your email.

    by BG

    Dufy, I suggest you read LOTR. It&#39;s a bloody good book. (I now challenge all other tailenders to try and string more than 3 words together that each contain a double o ;-)

  • June 6, 2002, 10:36 p.m. CST


    by BG

    I&#39;m embarrassed to admit it, but I&#39;ve never been trout fishing. Doh! So I can&#39;t help you, sorry. *** MEGA SPOILERS *** Since Bjarki posted the spoilers from TORN, here are the rest of the spoilers from the same source (Nilson_the_White) that I found over at Tolkienonline. 1. Do all the elves follow Aragorn into the Paths of the dead? Or do most of them return to Lorien? Since at the end of TTT Aragorn is entering the Paths of the Dead and only Legolas is with him, it doesn&#39;t look as if any of the Elves join him. However, there was no mention of them returning to Lorien. 2. Do we see or hear anything of Gandalf&#39;s fight/Gwaihir taking him to Lorien/talk with Galadriel? In the script there appears to be a place for a montage of such scenes when Gandalf the White appears and says: GANDALF: Gandalf... yes, that was the name... But it isn&#39;t described in great detail. 3. Is the Ent marching song included? Or any other poetry/songs besides Theoden&#39;s song in the TT preview? The only other poetry was the Words of the Seer, though in a slightly modified form. 4. Do the Nazgul make any major appearances? They terrorize Frodo and Sam on their Winged Steeds and make a brief appearence in Rohan while speeding towards Orthanc. 5. Why do Eowyn and Aragorn end up "fighting" with swords? Eowyn essentially challenges Aragorn to a spar. He refuses, but she continues to insist. Aragorn does not have his sword handy, so he uses the long knife Galadriel gave to him. He&#39;s holding his own very well just until the maneuver you see in the preview. 1. How are we introduced to Eomer? Is his role expanded a lot? We are introduced to Eomer much the same way we are in the book. There is a group of Rohirrim riding towards the Three Hunters from a long distance away. For some reason the way this scene is described reminds me of the famous "mirage" scene of Lawrence of Arabia. Anyway, this is the first thing we here Eomer say: EOMER: Who are you? What are you doing in Rohan? ARAGORN: I am Aragorn, I come from the north hunting Orcs. 2. Do Sam and Frodo see the Oliphaunt? Is Sam&#39;s curiosity present? They see hints of one as they watch the Haradrim pour into Mordor. It seems the full revelation of the Oliphaunts will wait for Pelennor when there is rumored to be two dozen on the field at once. 3. How do the Uruks/Orcs at the begining work? Do a group of Mordor orcs led by Grishnakh meet up with them? Grishnakh is there, though there is no mention of him being from Mordor. He and Ugluk argue for a bit, then Ugluk cuts his head off (what is it with these Uruks?). Ugluk remains in charge until he is killed by Eowyn at Helms Deep. Eowyn is not left in charge of Edoras as she is in the book, the reason being there is no Dunharrow, and the Paths of the Dead are awfully close to Helms Deep. Aragorn never returns to Edoras. Thus, Eowyn goes with them when the Rohirrim ride to Helms Deep. She stays with Theoden, mostly, and only kills Ugluk when he breaches the inner walls. 4. Will we see the "white figure", whom everyone beleives to be Saruman before Gandalf reveals himself? No. The Three Hunters get a feeling they&#39;re being followed in Fangorn. Aragorn and Legolas looks behind, see nothing, and Gimli urges that they press on. Then, as they are walking, the tall white figure seen in the preview steps up the embankment, they sense it, turn around going, "Aaaargh!" etc. 5. What Gollum flashbacks will we see? We know of The Smeagol/Deagol fishing scene... anything else? No, that&#39;s the only one. There are a few scenes in the script in which Gollum simply stares, motionless, with a "sad expression on his face" at the sleeping Hobbits. This flashback occurs during one of these episodes: SMEAGOL: Give us that, Deagol. DEAGOL: Why? SMEAGOL: Because it&#39;s my birthday, and I wants it! 6. What do the Elves do with Bilbo? They take him to Lorien with them. He actually has a few scenes with Elrond and Arwen. 1. How is Shadowfax introduced? Is he named? During their encounter at Fangorn, Gandalf the White whistles three times, and Shadowfax arrives. GANDALF: This is Shadowfax, lord of horses. He has come for me, the White Rider. 2. Do we see any more of Barad-dur? There are shots of Mordor preparing for war. The Haradrim, Easterlings, orcs, and orcs within the mountains and gathered around Barad-dur. 3. Do Gimli and Legolas make the deal to visit Fangorn and The Glittering Caves together? No. 4. How far does Frodo&#39;s "corruption" get? I&#39;m not sure I know exactly what you mean. The Ring grows heavier as they get closer to Mordor, and Frodo is described as looking at it a great deal. Also, he&#39;s described as getting more tired and bent as the travel along, but there are no real verbal cues. 5. Is Gimli and Legolas&#39; "bet" included? The counting of the orcs they have killed. Yes, to some degree. It isn&#39;t a running count, but at the end of the battle: GIMLI: Forty-two, Master Elf! How is it with you? LEGOLAS: Forty-one, you have beaten me, and yet I am happy to see you on your feet. I have been asked a lot of times if I am sure "this source of mine" is "legit"... and the answer is NO. For all I know, I could be getting fed lies and made up stuff. So take it with a grain of salt, or a full shaker... it&#39;s up to you.

  • June 7, 2002, 5:35 a.m. CST

    Re: everyone i guess

    by Sir Mordred

    SpacePerv- I&#39;m supremely overconfident and I love both characters in the book... but they aren&#39;t likeable in the film... well aragorn is... but boromir is an arrogant, and pompous ass in the film... until he dies. *** UM... I woulda read the others if there weren&#39;t so damn many... Here&#39;s something... how can you trust in PJ after seeing FotR? This is specifically for those who want Tolkien&#39;s LotR... PJ changed FotR just enough to know that it would never be Tolkien&#39;s. *** As for why I think it&#39;s a bad film.. not adaptation... but a film... well, I&#39;ll be brief becasue I have a paper to write right now. The score... badly used... hobbiton scene.. the score changes the tone for us rather than allowing Ian Holm to chagne the tone and teh music follow. In a good film the score should support an emotion- not point to it. The ring close-ups... is this a horror film or an epic? The CGI used badly ... Gandalf dwarfs Bilbo... could&#39;ve been done just fine with acting... same for the evil Bilbo and the green galadriel... he gets great actors and then refuses to use them... wtf? The Nazgul.... they aren&#39;t even scary at all... The Balrog... big and ugly, and stupid.. and where were those udders? Morgy- did you see them? Maybe Elsie did. The staircase scene in Moria... was there a reason for that at all???????? I mean, it looks ok, and nearly ruins the entire scene... Why does Gimli have to be the biggest smallest moron on the planet? It&#39;s like PJ took his main focuses... Aragorn, the Ring, and Sam... and everything esle was left byt he wayside... Sure the rest can be noble... but they are given no depth and no motivation... It&#39;s nice scene when Pippin runs up to the group and says &#39;Where are we goin?&#39; but why? It seems like he just feels left out, not like he&#39;s going to help his friend. And near the end... we get a great scene of Merry becoming noble and great... but aside from that he does nothing... except steal from Maggot... There seems to be no rhyme or reason for anything the film is about... In order to understand that Frodo is Bilbo&#39;s nephew.. you need to have some prior knowledge of it... otherwise you don&#39;t know. I said I&#39;d be brief... and well, i wasn&#39;t... sorry for bashing your favorite movie ever.. but I was asked to. *** On a side note, I thought TTT might&#39;ve been a redemption for PJ, after breezing through these spoilers- I see that I was dead wrong... Thank you for informing me. Let the Mordred bashing begin... And go Senegal and US! Senegal cause it&#39;s just cool that they beat France... US cause it&#39;s hometown loyalty.

  • June 7, 2002, 7:07 a.m. CST

    bjarki: Absolon and the chocolate starfish

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    okay fair point. The Knight&#39;s tale never did much for me, so I guess I wasn&#39;t paying attention. But I do recall that Arcite and Palamon themselves seemed to be a parody, since they both fall for a woman they&#39;ve only glimpsed, and claim to be her truest lover without any regard or interest for the lady&#39;s own feelings. "Maugree hir heed", one might almost say, since there&#39;s no virtue in their love, just selfishness. My reading is that this is deliberately implied, but its an arguable point based on Chaucer&#39;s pragmatic morality. Having said all that, I&#39;m going to try and find the time to revisit Troilus and Criseyde this weekend. Philip Pullman is starting to dr-a-a-a-g. Anyway this essay on dialect is so well known that I&#39;ve never read it. Got a link? Love the anecdote, by the way. Hmmm. Aragorn. You&#39;re probably right. At least he&#39;s nothing like Absolon (thankfully).

  • June 7, 2002, 8:31 a.m. CST

    bjarki: Absolon and the chocolate starfish

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    (2nd attempt to get somewhere in sequence) okay fair point. The Knight&#39;s tale never did much for me, so I guess I wasn&#39;t paying attention. But I do recall that Arcite and Palamon themselves seemed to be a parody, since they both fall for a woman they&#39;ve only glimpsed, and claim to be her truest lover without any regard or interest for the lady&#39;s own feelings. "Maugree hir heed", one might almost say, since there&#39;s no virtue in their love, just selfishness. My reading is that this is deliberately implied, but its an arguable point based on Chaucer&#39;s pragmatic morality. Having said all that, I&#39;m going to try and find the time to revisit Troilus and Criseyde this weekend. Philip Pullman is starting to dr-a-a-a-g. Anyway this essay on dialect is so well known that I&#39;ve never read it. Got a link? Love the anecdote, by the way. Hmmm. Aragorn. You&#39;re probably right. At least he&#39;s nothing like Absolon (thankfully).

  • June 7, 2002, 8:55 a.m. CST

    Alice briefly pops head over parapet...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Guys! I&#39;m overwhelmed! Thank you! I haven&#39;t *read* the spoilerific messages and emails yet, cos I&#39;m at work and busy and simply don&#39;t dare get into it, but I&#39;ll be reading them shortly. But thanks for supplying them, and I shall peruse them shortly (cue sinister music)...

  • June 7, 2002, 9:33 a.m. CST


    by Buck Teeth Soh

  • June 7, 2002, 10:58 a.m. CST

    Vote: Real or Spiel?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Well, what a lot of fuss about nothing - even if it is true, which I kind of have my doubts about. I could be wrong, but it does sound like a confabulation of fan rumours and what little evidence does exist (stills and so forth) put together. And if that shot of Arwen and Aragorn is from the Mirror, how come it isn&#39;t tinted green like Frodo&#39;s visions in the Mirror? Are his prophetic visions bilious or something? 2) Why isn&#39;t Gimli with Aragorn on the paths of the dead? Did I read that right? 3)Why is RIVENDELL (featuring a handy dandy wraith-eating river) but not much military might less safe than LORIEN? Surely to Eru actually *travelling* to Lorien with the likes of Bilbo and other non-com- batants is much more dangerous than sitting tight and trusting to the power of Vilya? I don&#39;t, and I know the purists will string me up, have a massive problem with some Elves at Helm&#39;s Deep (winces as expecting blow). I mean, I believe Aragorn wishes for help and it comes, in the form of Rangers and Elrond&#39;s sons and banner and sword. To expand on the size and components of this party is not that big a deal, nor is moving that meeting around that big a deal. But a wholesale upping of stakes sounds a little too much like gilding the lily. So, I&#39;m gonna vote that this is bollocks, or at least Chinese whispers, until I learn a little more.

  • June 7, 2002, 11:26 a.m. CST

    I too am dubious

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    after having read the details. Seems a bit wolly. Is this an early draft? *** Hey bjarki, I posted a response but it ended up near the top, about 8 down. Look for the chocolate starfish.

  • June 7, 2002, 1:42 p.m. CST

    Deja vu all over again!

    by Pallando Blue

    Okay I read em (after roughly 22 seconds of willpower and soul-searching) and, well, sure, if true there&#39;s choices in there I certainly wouldn&#39;t have made. And at the moment they do seem to be unnecessary deviations from the events in the book, from my current perspective. And I won&#39;t pretend not to fret a little over those decisions. More important, though, I&#39;m reminding myself that even if every one of these is true, it doesn&#39;t mean, at all, that we&#39;re going to get a bad movie. DO I HAVE TO DRAG BACK OUT MY 5-STEP PROGRAM FOR EVERYONE, all six or seven steps of it? (Not sure my old cheerleading outfit even FITS anymore.) The first film wasn&#39;t Tolkien either, at all; none of these films were ever GOING to be. Because, to boil it all down and with the bluntest words possible, J.R.R. Tolkien died over 20 years before production began. (Good thing he published the book over 20 years before that, huh?) Sorry to be insultingly obvious and repeat years-old finger-wagging, but I have a feeling this&#39;ll all happen again NEXT year during this seasonal lull between cinema, DVD, cinema. For now, try these quick stretches: When you find your trust in PJ wavering, remember to trust Fran and Philippa, too. Especially the latter, IMO, if you&#39;re worried about Tolkien being lost. Not to mention Christopher Lee, a.k.a. Possibly The World&#39;s Most-Qualified-To-Bitch Fanboy. Definitely, let&#39;s not start taking Fellowship for granted so terribly soon. Maybe that&#39;ll become easier once the DVD&#39;s out, and daily reminders become possible. :~) Many, many deviations in there, but PJ delivered one hell of a movie. One HELL of a MOVIE. Not a rewrite of the novel, nor a novelization of the movie. But he made HIS movie, which we all (the inexplicable Sir M notwithstanding) loved to death. I think PJ&#39;s more than proven himself as a filmmaker at all levels of the art & craft of filmmaking. *** So I say with all sincerity, START RECONCILING YOURSELF TO THESE AND SIMILAR STORY CHANGES NOW, because they may very well be the absolute truth, and what we&#39;ll be seeing in December. Will you let these huge story changes ruin the movie for you as you discover them in the theater? Did you last year? *** Now then, for an exercise, I say let&#39;s go over every "unnecessary deviation from the text" of FOTR that was agonized over in the months, years before December 2001. Especially the rumors that turned out to be TRUE! (Of course even in these there are things that still stick in some craws, but did they RUIN THE MOVIE for you?) This part is important: try to method-act/sense-memory yourself into the mental state you were in BEFORE having seen FOTR, when we were all groping in the dark in hope and fear. Re-experience that, then think about the finished product of FOTR, and you&#39;ll find yourself far more willing to accept any T2T alterations. In no particular order other than as I think of them (I know, some of these only came to light last fall), and mostly random levels of nitpickitude. Also, nowhere near complete (see Ancalagon the Black for that) but the ones I can immediately recall causing uproars and/or worries. Ahem. *** ORC PODS! wtf? * Expanded Arwen! (ew, in light of recent Faramir jokes) * Let&#39;s face it, ARWEN ARWEN Everywhere! * Not to mention LIV damn TYLER, famous merely for being famous, and obviously cast for mass-market-appeal not talent, of which everyone knows she has none. Right? * No 17 years between party and Frodo&#39;s departure. * NO BOMBADIL (to which I always shrug, but I know he has his proponents). * Where&#39;s Merry&#39;s sword? You know, THAT sword? * ...Cate&#39;s glam disco-boots! * Elijah Wood, and so then Frodo, too young. * What the hell is Boromir doing holding the Ring?!? On a mountainside? * The moth, the goddamn moth--why? * Drunken disheveled Gandalf! * Gimli chops at the Ring at the Council? * Aragorn doesn&#39;t leave Rivendell WITH Anduril? * The Moria Door, you can see the joints and seams (note: NOT fixed in post-prod as rumored!). * "Even the smallest person can change the course of the future." * Hold on one goddamn minute--not only does (1) Arwen take Glorfindel&#39;s place, and (2) Arwen single-handedly take the almost-comatose Frodo over the Ford, but (3) ARWEN causes the flood with an "ELVISH SPELL"?? * ...all-CGI Gollum in a recently post-Jar-Jar world... >shudder< * "You will adventure, or adventure will find you." * Aragorn not only KNOWS Frodo leaves by himself, he SENDS him off? * "Run, Frodo, run!" "GO!" "JUMP Mister Frodo!" * And let&#39;s not forget... LURTZ. A completely invented villain character... named LURTZ. &#39;nuff said. *** I encourage everyone to take a moment and add to the above list! Really, it&#39;ll make you feel much better. *** So, yes, there&#39;s a thousand and one reasons to dislike the possible T2T spoilers by "Nilson" (name?), but there were at least as many reasons to dread FOTR knowing what we knew going into it, when all we had were visuals from stills and trailers, and various spy leaks. Now, though, we have the evidence of Fellowship itself to bolster our resolve. One-third of the entire film is the best reason of all to Trust PJ. And at all times, keep in mind PJ&#39;s own words way back when in 1998 (!), after he described in those first 20 Q&#39;s his vision of Helm&#39;s Deep on screen: "Sure, it&#39;s not really THE LORD OF THE RINGS ... but it could still be a pretty damn cool movie." AMEN!

  • June 7, 2002, 2:19 p.m. CST


    by Pallando Blue

    Helluva match, watched the whole thing! Me sis married a Brit, so y&#39;all&#39;re my 2nd-place pick. ;) Well DONE! *** By the way, was just looking over those 20 Qs of over 3 years ago (jay-zus!), they&#39;re a fascinating read today comparing pre-prod, pre-casting, incomplete-script mindsets v. final (so far) product. Here they is, to save any seekers the hunt: and

  • All, it could very well be that (1) this TT script is a pure fabrication, or (2) it is an earlier version [two-movie script or whatever]. However, it is also possible that it may be the real deal. As a small, sort-of piece of evidence, go to and look through the site&#39;s voluminous section of photos. Can&#39;t remember exactly where amongst all of those pics that it is, but there is a photo that made me shake my head and go "HUH?" It is a pic of Celeborn in Lorien and he appears to be talking to (TA-DA!) Elrond (seen from the back, but sure looks like him). I saw this image the DAY BEFORE the news about the TT script broke. So, the next day I see this script thing, I read it and BOING! the part about Elrond taking everyone from Imladris to Lorien jumps off the page and slaps me! Is it in the film or not? Who knows. But that image sure as Eru is there, raising questions. Go to the site and check it out. *** Sir M: Well, I did ask for your explanation of why you don&#39;t like the movie. To each his own. I will not debate the various aspects of the film where we diverge. You have your opinon. I have mine. I just find it interesting that so many JRRT fans from so many different backgrounds, ages, etc., just love the film. I myself am nearly 45. Shoot, I&#39;ve been a die-hard Tolkienian since I was 13 (back in 1970...YIKES! Time flies!) Anywho, you don&#39;t like PJ&#39;s FOTR and I&#39;m not going to try and change yer mind. I&#39;m just sorry you didn&#39;t feel the magic. Please don&#39;t pass judgment on TT just yet. We have 6 months to go. After all, it was never designed to be a faithful adaptation (and believe me I can be a purist with the best of them). It is simply PJ&#39;s version of the story. I am amazed that some much DID make it in, especially the central themes, the moral gravitas, the overall feel of that age, the familiarity and yer otherwordliness. I could go on, but I won&#39;t. Pax, bruddah. *** Dufy: I see that BG and morGy have taken you to task about the Sauron-Saruman alliance (mutual betrayal society, as I see it), so I won&#39;t beat onya about it. However, just as an added note. Not only was PJ&#39;s "alliance" part fairly accurate to source (OK, so Saruman actually had his own designs, but got snared by Saruon when he was using his palantir, and, therefore is now actually betraying his "master"), but PJ&#39;s scene where Saruman tells Gandalf that they should join Sauron&#39;s team is also straight out of the book. In the book, Saurman tells Gandy that the "old alliances and policies won&#39;t avail them. There is a new Power rising, and they may join it...," or words to that effect. But since you haven&#39;t read the book recently (and seemingly don&#39;t want to, to avoid holding on to the details of the book) I understand your mis-info regarding some of PJ&#39;s supposed changes.(well, sorta). [:^D *** Well gotta run mellyn. Namarie.

  • June 7, 2002, 11:10 p.m. CST


    by MirkwoodMaiden

    I don&#39;t check the TB for a day or two and come back to all of this! Those spoilers are pretty eye-opening! I don&#39;t think I&#39;ll freak out just yet, though I am quite amazed. Who actually knows what the movie will portray everything as? I suppose my slight inquiry upon the elves at Helm&#39;s Deep has proved to be quite large. Elrond leaving Rivendell! Who would have guessed? I don&#39;t know how well I&#39;m going to swallow that one. The way I&#39;ve grown to percieve Elrond, I wouldn&#39;t expect him to abandon his home. He seems the type that would hold his ground until the roof caved in. And in the book Aragorn and the Rohirrim did just fine without elves coming to the rescue. (Not that every situation could do without a good elf. But we have Legolas!) Aiya, hopefully some of these more outrageous spoilers will fall into the pile of BS to collect with the ones from before FotR. **MorGoth - Back a ways up you asked if I had any relations in Doriath. If you are speaking of the Doriath in Tolkien&#39;s World (where I believe it is Elrond who has some relations) my memory may fail to go back that far in my family tree, but it is very possible that I have a cousin or two that still resides there! Amin must be off now! Namarri! ~You will find adventure, or adventure will find you.

  • June 8, 2002, 3:24 a.m. CST

    Tolkien contra Courtly Love II

    by pseudoplotinus

    Bjiarki, thanks for that extensive treatment on CL. Spaceperv, I would like to suggest another authority on the matter that I think clarifies the content of CL and it&#39;s likely origins. The Swiss philosopher Denis De Rougemont wrote a definitive treatment of courtly love and Western Romanticism in 1940 called &#39;Love in the Western World&#39; wearein he identifies Courtly Love as a cultural outgrowth of a European heretical sect known as Catharism whose existence coincided both historically and geographically with the first appearance of the Troubadours. Catharism, worshippers of &#39;the Church of Love&#39;, had a theology grounded in love as the highest reality and consisted of a two caste structure of superiors who adhered to a strict lifestyle of chastisty and inferiors who would proliferate the faith though not required to adhere to the same strictures as the superiors. Consequently among the common caste developed a highly eroticized conception of spirituality that prospered particularly among the aristocratic houses, the same homes that patronized the Troubadours. Rougemont sites many of the items included in your list above and finds distinct parallels in the Cathar faith. At the heart of Catharism, and by influence Courtly Love, was the apotheosis of passion. By adherence to a strict set of laws or rituals restricting physical eros and thus denying desire, the effects of desire were cultivated to a heightened state of passion and eventually mystical ecstasy. The literature of courtly love was essentially a school that rheotiricized this notion, idealizing the figure of the beloved as a quasi deity like figure and rendering the relationship of lover and beloved as essentially one of communicant and divinity. Thus at it&#39;s heart CL is an eroticised mysticism with a highly ritualized ethos intended to achieve ever greater states of passion among it&#39;s followers. De Rougemont does an excellent job connecting CL and Catharism with the pre-existing though sublimated culture of the pre-Christian Celt, the influence of which was forced underground due to the proliferation of Christianity and which had surfaced in time in the forms of Catharism and CL. It&#39;s worth noting that the Troubadours surface in the 12th century and Tolkien professed a dislike of most literature after 1088 AD according to a quote Bjiarki sited I believe. And he certainly was an outspoken critic of French influences in English lit in general. I would argue that Tolkien, though he borrows some of the rhetoric of CL in his Appendicized scenes of Aragorn and Arwen, is infact creating not a courtly relationship between the two but rather a relationship descended from more classical ideals. I suggest this largely from the fact that Aragorn and Arwen&#39;s relationship is subordinated to Aragorn&#39;s overriding duty concerning the ring and his descent from Isildur thus the common opposition in CL of sovereignty to King/Kingdom versus Lady is absent, in it&#39;s stead a more classical conception of obligation originating from socially defined roles prevails and secondly that the relationship of Aragorn and Arwen is consummated in matrimony, thus placing their relatioship within the sanction of society and in strict contradiction to the rules of CL.

  • June 9, 2002, 5:44 a.m. CST

    I believe it&#39;s my turn next...

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Bjarki, I believe it was my turn next followed by BG. Sorry about my location in the world but there&#39;s not mucj I can do about it. I&#39;ll send you an email with my particulars. Cheers

  • June 9, 2002, 4:10 p.m. CST

    To: Echo Pollando, Agree with SpacePerv, And a rather long blu

    by Skyway Moaters

    The first time I read the book my reaction to "The Field of Cormallen" when Gandalf comes to take him to "The King", (and there&#39;s old Strider sitting on a throne and all, (to paraphrase good Master Samwise), was the same as Sam

  • June 10, 2002, 6:22 a.m. CST


    by Sir Mordred

    Vanyar, part of me is sorry I can&#39;t feel the magic either. But the other part of me is pointing out the flaws and repairing them in my mind, "to be saved for a later date." ** I honestly don&#39;t have much else to add to that...

  • June 10, 2002, 10:01 a.m. CST

    Okay, real quick, morGoth, I gotta say, dagnabbit

    by Pallando Blue

    ...That you better quit this tendency you&#39;ve developed of late, to say effectively in 50 words exactly what I belabor over 500, right when I&#39;m doing it and beating me to the post! Gawd, ye makin me feel silly some days! ;-) *** U.S. secures a point by drawing S. Korea under very hostile conditions! In control of our own destiny needing only a draw with weakend, flailing Poland to move on to the second round! A WIN will probably win us the group! Not to jump the gun, but I smell quarterfinals....

  • June 10, 2002, 12:25 p.m. CST

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Well, I was perusing Dark Horizons and saw review up for Scooby Doo, and followed it... and guess where I ended up? Anybody remember Malexandria, Peter Jenkins, and the Bow Guy?Wow. The professional standards of reporting are still there, and I particularly enjoyed the semi-retarded debate below the review: "this movie is inpropriate for kids" "i liked this movie it was fun" and then they get in a little squabble over language. It&#39;s like a talkback only inhabited by somewhat prissier versions of elf_tickler. (Shakes head) Anyhoo, just checking in.

  • June 10, 2002, 6:24 p.m. CST

    Here are the latest spoilers from Nilson_The_White

    by BG

    ***SPOILERS*** 1. From Jersey: Does Aragorn have his "horse whisperer" moment? No, Aragorn doesn&#39;t talk to any horses in my script. 2. Do the ents flood Isengard? They sure do. 3. Is the Entmoot present? Yes, but you don&#39;t see it, you hear it. Merry and Pippin are waiting and they can hear the slow, long speech of the ents. Sources tell me this scene will also play a part in an upcoming Snickers commercial: Merry and Pippin will be sitting around listening to the Ent speech, "Not going anywhere for a while? Grab a Snickers!" 4. Is Quickbeam included in the film? No, none of the other Ents have names. 5. How does Elrond convince Arwen to remain in Lorien? It isn&#39;t really a long argument or anything. Arwen is preparing to go, when Elrond comes to her and convinces her she would be more use in Lorien. (This is spoken in Elvish (Sindarin)) ELROND: You are the Evenstar of your people, they need you now, here. ARWEN: I will not let him suffer alone. ELROND: He is not alone, ARWEN: He will be, in the end. ELROND: The Enemy grows near, war marches on our borders, Arwen. The Elves have their path, and Aragorn his own. Let him follow it.

  • June 10, 2002, 6:52 p.m. CST


    by BG is what Nilson_The_White posted about the paths of the dead spoiler: "LadyStefania, what was meant by "only Legolas is with him" is that Lego is the only ELF with Aragorn." I hope this eases your pain :-)

  • June 11, 2002, 6 a.m. CST

    egads! no one has missed me!

    by Mithril

    Oh well, so who cares? ***Now that the oh so very boring trolls have departed (at least for a second), I&#39;ll type a few words on the above discussions. ***More Faramir? Welcomed with open arms, buddies. My favourite character in LOTR gets more screen time? Thanks PJ, the check&#39;s in the post. (Well, actually it isn&#39;t since all my money&#39;s tied up buying the DVDs.) Oh, and I concur that if Sam&#39;s words about the Haradhrim have been moved to Faramir, it does give you further insight into Faramir&#39;s personality without having people blather on exposition (unlike AOTC, unfortunately). ***As for the talk about Aragorn at the end of FOTR and specifically about actively letting Frodo go, I think it nicely shows his character and strength of spirit. It also shows him confronting his fears: the Ring is right there on the palm of Frodo&#39;s hand, who&#39;s semi-offering it to Aragorn, and he doesn&#39;t take it. His fears about falling into the same trap and succumbing to the same weakness as Isildur are allayed. Also, the scene will probably combine nicely with Faramir&#39;s decision-scene in TTT, thus bringing home the same implicit connections between Aragorn and Faramir as the two great men, the two remains of the kings of old, that are left. Both of them making a similar good choice is part of this connection. ***If Elrond does leave Rivendell, my first reaction would be why? You&#39;re protected by Manwe and Varda there, the water surrounding you hates the presence of dark forces, the place is located in a hard-to-access location in the middle of the mountains with only a few narrow ways in, and you decide to head for open country? You&#39;d think the way Celebrian died would&#39;ve played in Elrond&#39;s mind. But then I think, hell, Elrond says in FOTR that his people can&#39;t take on both Sauron and Saruman&#39;s forces alone. From that, it&#39;s easy to understand why he&#39;d go to Lorien. ***As for Elros&#39; ears, well he of course had the points of his ears folded back and ceremoniously stapled up to hide them (using beautifully hand-carved Elvenwork staples, of course) after making his decision.

  • June 11, 2002, 6:37 a.m. CST

    Not bad for a throwaway remark

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I was contemplating a treatment of the mythical components of the Mabinogion prior to the White Book of Rhydderch (deffo written under the influence of French literature), but rather than raising the intellectual ante forever I think I&#39;ll admit that there is no truth, only interpretation, although you seem to be contradicting your original point. Anyway I agree with your conclusions on Aragorn and Arwen being derived from a classical source. Regardless, if as we all know Strider was originally intended to be a hobbit, did he have a flat head for Arwen to rest her pint on?

  • June 11, 2002, 8:26 a.m. CST

    Really Quite Silly

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Hey, thanks for the heads up guys. Mithril, it is hard to say who&#39;s missing and who&#39;s been hosed in this TB. But while we have a moment&#39;s peace, I bid you fair welcome. As for the "spoilers"... Nah, I still don&#39;t get why you&#39;d leave Rivendell. I thought the whole LOTR thing is that TRAVEL is DANGEROUS. Bad things happen to people who do bold things like go somewhere a bit different for a while. You undergo a spiritual and physical transformation so violent that you can never successfully re-integrate with society ever again. Or something like that. I still don&#39;t get how going to Lothlorien, and being *nearer* Saruman and Sauron would be even remotely helpful. If anything, you&#39;d think it would be the Lorien people that would be upping stakes and flitting. Sigh. No. This is all very silly.

  • June 11, 2002, 9:22 a.m. CST

    bjarki56: The Path to that Celeborn/Elrond pic

    by Vanyar

    Here&#39;s what you need to do: (1) Go to, (2) Enter the site, (3) Click on "Fellowship of the Ring", (4) Click on "Screen Captures", (5) Click on "Fantasy Planet film gallery", (6) Click on Page #40 (Yes, I said 40! Believe it or not, this site has 63 PAGES of pics. Everything from film and trailer captures, to documentary photos, to video game captures, to official portraits of the characters. This gallery is loaded!) Anyway, last step, (7) The pic is the first one (far left) in row 6. It is titled "Celeborn" and shows him and what certainly looks like Elrond (his back is to us) conversing. Hope that it is worth your effort. Namarie, Mellon.

  • June 11, 2002, 10:07 a.m. CST

    Cheers, Vanyar...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I did indeed see "the Smoking Gun" evidence. Hmm. I had previously kind of assumed that while Arwen and Elrond might take a trip out, that this is not necessarily synonymous with emptying Rivendell. Anyhoo, I can kind of see why an Elven military presence might be necessary at Helm&#39;s Deep - elsewise, all the non Tolkien crackwhores (those poor deluded fools) are going to be asking, "And what the fuck are the Elves doing to help out while all this is going down? Sitting at home, braiding their hair?". It makes sense to show them a little willing to pitch in beyond offering gnomic non-counsel and a bed for the night. So, we hit the six month mark in a week&#39;s time, don&#39;t we? After then, TTT will be nearer than FOTR is. Isn&#39;t that a mad thought, my masters? It makes me go all prickly. Hope they start bringout a bit more news.

  • June 11, 2002, 3:08 p.m. CST

    No, not a catfight...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Um... actually the opposite. That&#39;s a composite that&#39;s been drawn up - the caption underneath it is "My lady, my lover". I&#39;m betting that&#39;s a fanart thing for someone&#39;s... um... slash site. But nice catch, anyway. I cannot think of a single way for either of these chickadees to meet in the next movie. Nor should they. Part of the deal of Eowyn&#39;s grief is that she had no idea that Aragorn was engaged. She just interpreted it as rejection. Oh, and there&#39;s a cool picture on page 63 (where I went first of all, after misreading the above instructions) of cute little hobbitses looking down on a marching dark army, which is interesting in light of our discussions on where it will all end. However, I&#39;m thinking it might be fanart too, as both of these hobbits appear to be dark-haired, though these are meant to be "screen captures". Hmm. What a cool site though. The pics are sweet.

  • June 11, 2002, 5:14 p.m. CST

    I&#39;ve been...

    by BG

    ...wandering around the TolkienOnline message boards trying to sniff out any spoilers or inside info, as is my wont. At the moment there is a rumour doing the rounds that Aragorn will face Sauron in a one-on-one battle at the end of ROTK. This rumour has gained so much momentum over there that many people are beginning to regard it as fact. Just as I was rolling up me sleeves to do some serious flaming in defence of PJ&#39;s honour, I noticed the following two posts from Democritus: "Well I have some news people... I have done something I have only done very rarely since running into a few Weta folk in my time here in Wellington. I have asked a specific, as opposed to general question about the movies. I am very careful not to spoil things for myself like I did with FOTR (to a certain extent) so I am hesitant to ask specific questions, but after reading this thread I had to know if our worst fears were going to be realised. And the answer is a categorical NO! Aragorn will NOT be having any kind of one-on-one with Sauron, PJ ruled that out pretty early on apparently (Thank God) HOWEVER, the end of Sauron is not to happen like it did in the book, PJ does have something else in mind, something slightly more &#39;cinematic&#39; (read &#39;upping the ante&#39; )than the book. My contacts reassure me that what does happen is not a betrayal of the major themes of the book (I have to see that for myself I think). Rest assured I told them that not under any circumstances do I actually want to know what happens before I see the movie, I just had to know it wasn&#39;t to be some kind of travesty like Aragorn vs Sauron. A Revisionist I might be, but that change would be totally unacceptable, I would have personally considered it a betrayal! Further confirmation that Aragorn will not be fighting Sauron. I was talking to one of my girlfriends in-laws this weekend, who is a set designer for three-foot-six. Once again I was careful not to find out to much, and the in-law (a very pleasant Irishman) was careful not to give that much away However I put the A vs S question to him as a "need to know" question, and he confirmed once again that he has seen or heard nothing like that at all. The poor b*****d is working from 8am to 12am (16 hours work) all next work as the "pick-ups" hit full swing. He also let slip that the New Zealand axe champion has been employed to do some work on "Fangorn". My Irish friend is working on Osgoliath. P.S: My girlfriend has all the contacts, her uncle was a gondorian citizen, an elven archer an a rohan refugee. Her sisters boyfriend played a "dead elf" and a friend of his was a lothlorian elf who is a friend of "Figwit". And then there is her in-law of course. I have my own Weta contacts, so I&#39;m well supplied with information if I want it (which is a mixed blessing let me tell you) Honestly, if you live in Wellington for any length of time, I don&#39;t know how you COULDN&#39;T develop contacts from the movies"

  • June 11, 2002, 5:30 p.m. CST

    SPOILERS! NO BRAINER SPOILERS! Aragorn vs. Sauron - only on Pay

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I would be very surprised if Sauron died off-camera (rather like he does in the book). That said, doesn&#39;t something cool happen when he snuffs it - something about a great shadow like a grasping hand reaching out and then fading away... anyhoo, glad to see that Aragorn won&#39;t be squaring off against Sauron, as he would get his ass kicked. It&#39;s not like the big guy has a Ring that can be handily cut off.

  • June 11, 2002, 6:37 p.m. CST

    Actually Alice...

    by BG

    ...if Aragorn did face off against Sauron he could attempt to cut off all of Sauron&#39;s remaining fingers, then he wouldn&#39;t have anywhere to wear the ring... er... or would he? Um... probably best not to think about it ;-)

  • June 11, 2002, 7:18 p.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Well, speaking for myself, that sounded pretty fucking cinematic to me, dude. It&#39;s Movie Heaven! Stuff, like, totally explodes! Admittedly Prof. T doesn&#39;t say it happens in slow motion, but he probably meant to...

  • June 11, 2002, 7:31 p.m. CST

    Luring In That Elusive Teen Demographic

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I kind of liked your first version, Miami, where the Dark Lord is doing coke with Eminem.

  • June 12, 2002, 2:59 a.m. CST

    Tolkien contra Joseph Campbell

    by pseudoplotinus

    Hey Bjarki, I think I saw that last act of defiance gesture used in Road Warrior. Not sure if it would be apt in ROTK, but it would be a great ending if ever Bored of the Rings comes to the big screen. Thanks for your comments regarding Rougemont etc. I came to him after reading Girard&#39;s Deceit, Desire and the Novel. My actual reading in Courtly Literature is limited to Don Quixote which is probably the closest I&#39;ll ever get to enjoying it personally. I guess I&#39;m just a hopeless anti-romantic. Spaceperv, I would be interested in reading your argument. No need to worry about upping the intellectual anti among tailenders, it&#39;s a better class of discussion here (in my humble opinion). Regarding Campbell, (and I&#39;ll try to be delicate) I don&#39;t have a lot of patience with the &#39;archetypal&#39; approach to myth. I realize Frazier and Jung built their careers on it, and no doubt made some significant and influential contributions in the process, but Campbell ends up fetishizing the archetypal system by subordinating the particularity of the mythical source material to his totalizing system the way Hegel wanted to subordinate particularity to his grand historical dialectic. In the end meta systems collapse under the weight of their own hubris. I can understand why one might want to group Tolkien in with the archetypalists. I believe both he and CS Lewis were impressed by Fraziers magesterial Golden Bough. But where Archetypalists like Frazier and Jung wanted to find a grand universal system underwhich all particular myths could be reconciled by emphasizing the points of similarity. Tolkien saw myth as a kind of echo of the one true myth of Christianity. But by virtue of myths origins in men, they were also clouded and corrupted by their human vessels. Where the archetypalists saw the diversity of myths as equal parts of a larger whole, Tolkien and Lewis viewed myths as insightful and meaningful but none the less derivative and secondary to a purer mystical account, that of Christianity. I don&#39;t personally think that Tolkien&#39;s Catholicism necessarily made him a better mythologist, rather his willingness to appreciate particular myths within the context of their own linguistic, geographic and ethnological contexts did. Unlike Campbell, Tolkiens views on myth were not haunted by a need to impose his own meta-scheme over them. And this allowed him to enjoy them in their own particularity.

  • June 13, 2002, 12:30 a.m. CST

    More semi-SPOILERS from the TolkienOnline Message boards.

    by BG

    Here is apost from Nar: "-One fave &#39;&#39;Towers&#39;&#39; creation is Gollum, former owner and current coveter of the One Ring, who is forced to march Frodo (Elijah Wood) and Sam (Sean Astin) to Mount Doom. But Gollum&#39;s anti-Hobbit plotting makes him a menace

  • June 13, 2002, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Semi-spoilerific Goodness

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Cheers, dude, not much I hadn&#39;t seen before but nice to see it all again. I am ultra-psyched for the Dead Marshes, gotta say.

  • June 13, 2002, 11:04 a.m. CST


    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I&#39;m going to have to be a lightweight and pass on your invitation - I&#39;m posting from work and don&#39;t have the time to check dates, sources or even correct spellings. The point I&#39;d make is that the strands of pre-Christian celtic mythology predate the literary golden age of chivalry, but were codified and collated by writers influenced as you say by French literature. This seems to happen a lot with stories - interestingly, a number of Scandinavian fairy tales carry on in fine pagan style until suddenly Jesus comes walking over the hill, which seems to point to some cloistered scholar scribbling away. Onto Campbell. As I stated above, he provides a useful but blunt tool (see my cookie-cutter remark above) which works quite well on personal journeys, which are the usual nature of myths. Frodo quite clearly undergoes the call to adventure and the refusal - he may not verbalise his refusal, but he clearly indicates doubt and regret before accepting his destiny. However, Frodo isn&#39;t the only character on a quest, I don&#39;t even think he&#39;s the most important. The monomyth is fine for dealing with components of a myth cycle, but not the whole tapestry - Beren and Luthien, for example, fit the mould but to apply the monomyth to the whole Silmarillion is admittedly ludicrous (the universe is the practical joke of the general at the expense of the particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo). Anyway, Campbell, Hegel and even Freud are great examples of thinkers who tried to expand a good idea into a universal truth. The problem with thesis and antithesis is that nobody questions themselves, or designs a null hypothesis - there&#39;s no profit in it. * Frazer is a whole lot more complicated - he&#39;s more comparitive mythologist than archetypalist, especially since his work digresses heavily into sympathetic magic, returning occasionally to the sacrifice of the divine king - a closer parallel to the myth of Christianity. If anything, he supports an evolution of thought while archetypalists populate your unconscious with the same iconic gods and monsters that you carried in your uncivilised brain thousands of years ago. Time to come clean - I am an archetypalist, and I carry my gods in the dark and terrifying abyss of my dreams. Taking this back to Tolkien, there is a more mundane mechanic than the collective unconscious at work: he didn&#39;t create his stories in a vaccuum, they were inspired by earlier fables from Beowulf to the Nibelungenlied, which are transcriptions of earlier stories about gods and monsters born in uncivilised brains thousands of years ago. And if those aren&#39;t archetypes, what is? Related point: Clearly, the ruling ring combines Alberich&#39;s ring with the powers of the Tarnhelm, but nobody has ever accused Tolkien of plagiarism (have they?). Meanwhile on another talkback, JK Rowling is being roundly accused of ripping off Neil Gaiman over a speccy wizard kid. Why does a difference of several hundred years excuse perceived theft of intellectual property?

  • June 13, 2002, 7:36 p.m. CST


    by BG go here: showthread.php?s=ad4d67245e2f35eb522f7c6ddc1f454a&threadid= 9428&perpage=30&pagenumber=143 (Remove spaces) you will see some spy pics from Amber. If you go back one page (142) you will see some other interesting pics.

  • June 14, 2002, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Interesting Little Nugget...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    On the messageboards (cheers for the link, dude!). "They&#39;re behind schedule". Ooh. I feel all funny again...

  • June 17, 2002, 7 a.m. CST

    Hello everyone

    by Runelord


  • June 17, 2002, 7:04 a.m. CST

    That&#39;s a nice image, elanor

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Sadly the view from my window today looks more like Isengard post-industrial revolution, and my workplace is occupied by orcs and one particularly large and ugly troll (oh wait that&#39;s me). Must be Monday. *** USA through to the quarter finals! Come on you Yankees, I&#39;ve got 30 quid riding on you!

  • June 17, 2002, 7:15 a.m. CST

    Well good morning Runelord,

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    And welcome to a hosed talkback. Just one thing - your opinions are what make you interesting, so don&#39;t worry about offering them anytime.

  • June 17, 2002, 7:26 a.m. CST

    Elanor Went To Lothlorien On Holiday And All I Got Was This Lous

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Whoa! Nice, Elanor, very nice. Welcome, lurkerer-type person. You join us in our quiet moment before the storm. When the new TB comes and we decamp to that, we all rev up to warrior-mode. It has been been pretty quiet around here lately, and then boom, 4 posts. Or maybe the order was hosed. Well, I have nothing of note to contribute, just checking in. Is it me, but are the TBs on the main page getting more and more asinine, or am I just getting older? Bah. I&#39;m off to put ointment on my joints.

  • *** elanor: Loved reading that bit about the Valley of Singing Gold that you witnessed. I only experienced that once and that was long ago in Japan (1979 I believe....EEP!) when I was climbing in the Japan Alps and witnessed a sunrise between two majestic peaks with a vale of bamboo and camphor wood trees in between.....absolutely mesmerizing. One of the first times I remember being truly "rooted" to a spot and suddenly finding tears running down my cheeks unabated and unabashed. **siggghh** Thanks for bringing that fond memory to the surface. Anyway, I wrote that to write this: For Father&#39;s Day my wife, daughter, my inlaws and I all went to Galveston this past weekend. One of the neat things we did was to go to Moody Gardens. It is an absolutely gorgeous place with these three glass pyramids set amidst meandering walkways lined with oleanders and other flora galore. The pyramids house such things as an amazing rainforest (Asian, American and African zones) as well as an animal discovery pyramid, etc. But I digress. As we were leaving we happened to be parked by a car that wasn&#39;t there when we arrived. And what to my wondering eyes was plastered on that car&#39;s rear window but a gold and black sticker that read "Not all those who wander are lost.....JRR Tolkien." A small thing perhaps, but it was a beautiful little capper to my splendid day. "Aragorn&#39;s Prophecy Poem" as I call it, is one of my absolute favorites and speaks volumes to me. I just looked at it, pointed it out to my family, and whispered "Thank you Lord" and moved on. OK, I know I&#39;m gettin all misty about something pretty insignificant, but it really got to me. OK, enough heart-squeezing in public view. *** Runelord, thrice welcome! Visit often, and we&#39;ll all endeavor to inculcate you with the richness and speldor of the good professor&#39;s wonderful realm of Middle-earth. Well, gotta, so I&#39;ll just say, Namarie, mellyn.

  • *** elanor: Loved reading that bit about the Valley of Singing Gold that you witnessed. I only experienced that once and that was long ago in Japan (1979 I believe....EEP!) when I was climbing in the Japan Alps and witnessed a sunrise between two majestic peaks with a vale of bamboo and camphor wood trees in between.....absolutely mesmerizing. One of the first times I remember being truly "rooted" to a spot and suddenly finding tears running down my cheeks unabated and unabashed. **siggghh** Thanks for bringing that fond memory to the surface. Anyway, I wrote that to write this: For Father&#39;s Day my wife, daughter, my inlaws and I all went to Galveston this past weekend. One of the neat things we did was to go to Moody Gardens. It is an absolutely gorgeous place with these three glass pyramids set amidst meandering walkways lined with oleanders and other flora galore. The pyramids house such things as an amazing rainforest (Asian, American and African zones) as well as an animal discovery pyramid, etc. But I digress. As we were leaving we happened to be parked by a car that wasn&#39;t there when we arrived. And what to my wondering eyes was plastered on that car&#39;s rear window but a gold and black sticker that read "Not all those who wander are lost.....JRR Tolkien." A small thing perhaps, but it was a beautiful little capper to my splendid day. "Aragorn&#39;s Prophecy Poem" as I call it, is one of my absolute favorites and speaks volumes to me. I just looked at it, pointed it out to my family, and whispered "Thank you Lord" and moved on. OK, I know I&#39;m gettin all misty about something pretty insignificant, but it really got to me. OK, enough heart-squeezing in public view. *** Runelord, thrice welcome! Visit often, and we&#39;ll all endeavor to inculcate you with the richness and speldor of the good professor&#39;s wonderful realm of Middle-earth. Well, gotta, so I&#39;ll just say, Namarie, mellyn.

  • *** elanor: Loved reading that bit about the Valley of Singing Gold that you witnessed. I only experienced that once and that was long ago in Japan (1979 I believe....EEP!) when I was climbing in the Japan Alps and witnessed a sunrise between two majestic peaks with a vale of bamboo and camphor wood trees in between.....absolutely mesmerizing. One of the first times I remember being truly "rooted" to a spot and suddenly finding tears running down my cheeks unabated and unabashed. **siggghh** Thanks for bringing that fond memory to the surface. Anyway, I wrote that to write this: For Father&#39;s Day my wife, daughter, my inlaws and I all went to Galveston this past weekend. One of the neat things we did was to go to Moody Gardens. It is an absolutely gorgeous place with these three glass pyramids set amidst meandering walkways lined with oleanders and other flora galore. The pyramids house such things as an amazing rainforest (Asian, American and African zones) as well as an animal discovery pyramid, etc. But I digress. As we were leaving we happened to be parked by a car that wasn&#39;t there when we arrived. And what to my wondering eyes was plastered on that car&#39;s rear window but a gold and black sticker that read "Not all those who wander are lost.....JRR Tolkien." A small thing perhaps, but it was a beautiful little capper to my splendid day. "Aragorn&#39;s Prophecy Poem" as I call it, is one of my absolute favorites and speaks volumes to me. I just looked at it, pointed it out to my family, and whispered "Thank you Lord" and moved on. OK, I know I&#39;m gettin all misty about something pretty insignificant, but it really got to me. OK, enough heart-squeezing in public view. *** Runelord, thrice welcome! Visit often, and we&#39;ll all endeavor to inculcate you with the richness and speldor of the good professor&#39;s wonderful realm of Middle-earth. Well, gotta, so I&#39;ll just say, Namarie, mellyn.

  • June 17, 2002, 11:44 a.m. CST

    elanor: Re: That Tolkien Thingy; Runelord: Welcome!

    by Vanyar

    *** elanor: Loved reading that bit about the Valley of Singing Gold that you witnessed. I only experienced that once and that was long ago in Japan (1979 I believe....EEP!) when I was climbing in the Japan Alps and witnessed a sunrise between two majestic peaks with a vale of bamboo and camphor wood trees in between.....absolutely mesmerizing. One of the first times I remember being truly "rooted" to a spot and suddenly finding tears running down my cheeks unabated and unabashed. **siggghh** Thanks for bringing that fond memory to the surface. Anyway, I wrote that to write this: For Father&#39;s Day my wife, daughter, my in-laws and I all went to Galveston this past weekend. One of the neat things we did was to go to Moody Gardens. It is an absolutely gorgeous place with these three glass pyramids set amidst meandering walkways lined with oleanders and other flora galore. The pyramids house such things as an amazing rainforest (Asian, American and African zones) as well as an animal discovery pyramid, etc. But I digress. As we were leaving we happened to be parked by a car that wasn&#39;t there when we arrived. And what to my wondering eyes was plastered on that car&#39;s rear window but a gold and black sticker that read "Not all those who wander are lost.....JRR Tolkien." A small thing perhaps, but it was a beautiful little capper to my splendid day. "Aragorn&#39;s Prophecy Poem" as I call it, is one of my absolute favorites and speaks volumes to me. I just looked at it, pointed it out to my family, and whispered "Thank you Lord" and moved on. OK, I know I&#39;m gettin all misty about something pretty insignificant, but it really got to me. OK, enough heart-squeezing in public view. *** Runelord, thrice welcome! Visit often, and we&#39;ll all endeavor to inculcate you with the richness and splendor of the good professor&#39;s wonderful realm of Middle-earth. Well, gotta go, so I&#39;ll just say, Namarie, mellyn.

  • June 17, 2002, 12:54 p.m. CST

    There and back again.....

    by MirkwoodMaiden

    I myself have been consumed by nature the past week. I was staying out in the quieter parts of Tennessee, a cabin in the country, and had some wonderful experiences. I would be awaken at hours long before the rest of the world to do some physical training, and get the most exhilirating view of the sunrise each morning. The way the field I was in would spill over with sunlight, slashing onto the sides of the trees and causing everything to be briefly stained with a golden-orange tint. As the sun passed fully over the trees you could then see, for a short while, the bluest, clearest sky imaginable. Gorgeous, it&#39;s the only way to describe it all. It&#39;s what would keep me to waking up during those hours, the veiw was so incredibly Tolkien I believe only he could describe it properly. I must be off, Namaarie. ~ You will find adventure, or adventure will find you.

  • June 17, 2002, 1:27 p.m. CST

    A few Hullos and little News... where o where will this post end

    by Pallando Blue

    Firstly, >ahem< ...... UNITED STATES 2 MEXICO 0 !!!!! We go on to the quarterfinals! Takin on Germany Friday! OH this is just freaking amazing! *** And also generally why I&#39;ve been absent much. Work, naps, World Cup, my sleep has been coming in 2-3 hour shots for well over a week now, and I&#39;m a li&#39;l dizzier than normal. (Whaddaya mean what&#39;s the difference?) *** Now then, with a little further digging about, I discovered the source of these Two Towers rumors--none other than good ol&#39; "Leo" "Leonides" himself, back at it. [For those who don&#39;t know, this Leo fellow had(has) some deep inside connection who irregularly feeds him serious LOTR dirt--he was right on the money, with supporting accurate script excerpts, on just about every major (and many minor) scene(s) in FOTR over the year leading up to release. He&#39;s the real deal as far as spies go, so, so are the T2T spoilers up there.] Apparently he&#39;d been asked to leave "The White Council" message board where he&#39;d orginally posted all his "Ask Leo" threads, and banned (?) from the TORC message board, where Nilson posted them above spoilers. (I think I got his soap-opera story straight, but it&#39;s out there to correct me.) Turns out he and Nilson are mates, and N was being L&#39;s mouthpiece there. Now &#39;en, looks like Leo&#39;s gone solo flight with his I-can&#39;t-believe-he-ain&#39;t-busted-yet spoiler connections! He showed up one last time at TWC to let em know about THIS: ....Leo&#39;s own message board. Frankly it looks like Spoiler Central (we&#39;re all caught up here, though--the stuff above is the latest). The folx who stay on the bleeding edge of such things all seem to be congregating (e.g., that Ancalagon feller). The Spoiler page there is "Riddles In The Dark..." Haven&#39;t even glanced at the others. Looks like he&#39;s cash-strapped, so who knows how long the site&#39;ll stay up... Anyhoo, I think that seals it, All the above are (99% probable) TRUE. And hey, now you can go Ask Leo for more yourselves! At least you know where to check for future massive spoiler updates... *** Hullo Runelord, welcome aboard! Don&#39;t fret this crowd thinking your eegn&#39;ant in matters Tolkien, I&#39;ve been faking it here for years and they STILL haven&#39;t figured it out. (Right, mellon?)elanor, absolutely beautiful. You truly inspire me to get outside and rediscover the great outdoors for myself again. On a weekend. After the Cup finals. :)

  • June 17, 2002, 11:08 p.m. CST

    Welcome to the Tailenders, Runelord.

    by BG

    Everybody who joins the Tailenders needs to learn and uphold the proud traditions and history of our illustrious group, but any newbie who manages to &#39;school&#39; Dufy in their very first post obviously has the &#39;Right Stuff&#39;. Oh, and you&#39;ll also have to go through the Club Angband initiation ceremony, of course. (Um.. better make sure your medical insurance is up to date.. just in case ;-)

  • June 18, 2002, 6:11 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Pwetty please...

  • June 18, 2002, 11:47 a.m. CST

    Non-Stop Frenetic Dancing!!!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Well, it&#39;s halfway - wow. Tomorrow, TTT is nearer than FOTR. Heady thoughts. I will now perform the Ecstatic Dance of LOTR Movie Anticipation. Keep a hand on your beer glasses and your fingers off the table...

  • June 18, 2002, 5:54 p.m. CST


    by Pallando Blue

    Bum bum buuuuhhh! Thought this a bit of a coincidence, too much so perhaps. Decide for youselves! Well, soon after I had that silly, squealy little hissy fit as a tailender scorned a couple weeks back, the World Cup began and coupled with my recent workload I lost much contact with the outside world. One of the things to fall by the wayside was this hotmail account. Flush with the States&#39; victory over Mexico (and finally some unstolen wiggle-room in the schedule) (and at long last nearly 8 consecutive hours sleep) I thought to check it out. Lo and behold CB had replied! Then I noticed... he replied roughly THE DAY AFTER I COMPLAINED HERE! HA! Bum bum buuuuuhhhh! Or rather, theremin music and wavery question marks... Hiya Costa, or whoever&#39;s over there, no hard feelins mate! I hope! ;) *** Okay, straight from the source, here&#39;s some of the changes from book to movie in The Two Towers! **MASSIVE SPOILERS TO FOLLOW!!** And I QUOTE: "One radical departure is the romantic liasion which develops between Theoden and Legolas, creating rather a lot of tension between the King of Rohan and Gandalf. Also, it seems that PJ&#39;s handling of the erotic scenes between Aragorn and Arwen have been deemed less than sizzling by New Line, who have brought in the dream team directing combo of Adrian (9 1/2 Weeks) Lyne and Zalman (2 Moon Junction) King to oversee reshoots." So, yes, he did seem to enjoy yanking the fan-chain. ;~D *** To be fair, that was in reponse to my own silliness, explaining that it was story spoilers/book-departures that I DIDN&#39;T want to know about, as in "NOT cool to know: Arwen has an affair with Faramir, sending Strider into a spiral of depressed drinking and an abusive one-night stand with the lovestruck Eowyn, which, after the next morning&#39;s inevitable surly, hungover rejection, drives her to suicide from the Hornburg at the peak of the Helm&#39;s Deep battle, and the beautiful tragedy of her long slow-motion freefall onto the battlements melts even the hearts of the just-misunderstood, have-never-known-love Uruk-hai whom, after a 10-minute tearful monologue from Theoden (who turns out to be Gandalf&#39;s long-lost brother), drop their weapons and begin the long toil of rebuilding the lives of those whom they&#39;ve tormented, right after tossing Saruman onto some spiked wheel in Isengard." Hee hee. *** But you want to talk mental cruelty, his first response to the above was the terribly oblique teaser "But Saruman doesn&#39;t die at Isengard ... haven&#39;t you read the books??" OOH! That man! Maddening! Right up there with some of McKellen&#39;s grand non-spoiling riddling e-post "spoilers" pre-FOTR. Gnnaaar! *** In other news, Fellowship&#39;s JUST started up at MY local second-run-movie Cinema n Drafthouse (not Austin)! I can hardly believe it, three hours of Fellowship and drinking, BEFORE the DVD is out! Time to start refining the drinking games... (Every close up of the Ring is a social...) Speaking of which, elanor, I believe the two-tape VHS SEE version isn&#39;t coming out until November, either. Sorry. :( *** SIX MONTHS TO GO!?! good crikey that&#39;s right! [hop] [thump] I&#39;m one table over, Alice, don&#39;t mind me! [whips off blue robe revealing white leisure suit and starts getting all Tony Manero for a good 40 seconds before stepping directly on Miami&#39;s stone (a keepsake he&#39;d been asked repeatedly to put away, eyuh) which sends PB flying straight up heels over head and the stone whizzing toward Alice....]

  • June 18, 2002, 10:23 p.m. CST

    Thanks to all for the warm welcomes

    by Runelord

    BG, its very nice of you to say such kind things

  • June 19, 2002, 8:39 a.m. CST

    Why do chicks dig rings?

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Do you know, I&#39;ve not the faintest idea? I know why *I* dig it, so I guess that&#39;s a place to start, of sorts. I like the depth and complexity of the imagined world - I love the sense of huge stories lurking behind the huge story being told. I dig the characters and their motivations - to me quibbling about "What&#39;s Merry and Pippin&#39;s motivation for going on this Quest?" is a useless question. They go because their friend is in trouble. To me, much as Elves are beautiful and distant and Men are brave and honourable, Hobbits OWN LOTR. It presents a world where people become aware of their obligations to one another, and the Hobbits typify this. I also love the relationships - some are better drawn than others - but whether they&#39;re friends, or stewards and kings, or whatever, they are all rich, complex, and consistent. In fact, it&#39;s the relationships, the all-encompassing and nasty nature of the evil they are up against, and the Hobbits (whose smallness is a physical manifestation of their parochialness and how lost they are amongst the great and the good, but still they manage to hold their own). The movie is somewhat hindered by a slightly different assessment of Frodo&#39;s character than it was in the books, but not too different, but very, very greatly helped by the all the Hot Guy Quotient going on. And also, it gets across the verismultitude of the books and the depth and complexity of ME. Those probably aren&#39;t my final thoughts, but will do for a first draft. Anyhoo, PB, he called! See, all&#39;s not lost. Hope you haven&#39;t packed on too many pounds from all that Haagendasz you ate while listening to torch songs. You need to be trim for your next date. Eeurgh! Kidney stone! Nassty! I have been publically stoned for dancing before, so I guess I should have expected it. Anyway, I have a question - who&#39;s your favourite character? (Okay, it&#39;s not one that will stump the Valar, but worth a go.) Some days it&#39;s Frodo, more often it&#39;s Sam, but Aragorn and Gandalf are also pretty cool. As are Merry and Pippin - though I prefer Merry. And Faramir pretty much rules as non-Fellowship fodder, though when I was a tweenager, my fave was Gollum. I guess my attitudes to the book evolve as I age. But anyway, that&#39;s my tuppence worth. On a related note, most of the Tolkien crackwhores I grew up with were girls. There&#39;s something as well in a thousand pages of brawny guys getting all testosterone-heavy, kicking ass, and you get all the character stuff as well. Hmm. Then I get quite geeky when it comes to swords. Freud, make of that what you will.

  • June 19, 2002, 2:25 p.m. CST

    Just a quick word.

    by Xyzan

    I never understood why girls weren&#39;t meant to like sword and sorcery. i&#39;m going to go slightly off topic now and say, i can&#39;t wait for several movies! I&#39;m going to use reing of fire to get me though august and maybe september, then i only have a few months left until ttt! Whoohhooo! As to why i like LotR (and i only read the books in november, a month before watching the film) it&#39;s partly the fantasy side of it (I am obsessed in an unhealthy way with dragons) but also the characters. (still feel a little cheated by the battles though, but that&#39;s just me.)

  • June 20, 2002, 1:23 a.m. CST


    by Conan_the_Humble

    I received Harry&#39;s book today. Thanks for that. I&#39;m getting my way through it and will pass it on to BG by early next week. I agree about your comparison between LOTR and other works of fantasy. I (obviously) enjoy fantasy including the Conan Chronicles et cetera, but I&#39;ve never read another story that comes close to equalling what the good Professor achieved. I am a rather voracious reader and I&#39;ve always been rather contemptous of the &#39;blurbs&#39; on the back of Fantasy novels, ie,"this puts <name your author here> firmly on the throne next to Tolkein and has a chance of keeping him there." This is such a load of rubbish. I have never read work by another author that even compares to TOLKEIN. Saying that however, that doesn&#39;t mean I don&#39;t LIKE other works, it just means in my opinion, that TOLKEIN is the greateast Author I&#39;ve ever come across. Harry, when are you gonna start releasing TTT news? Surely your kowtowing to the SW people has finished by now? Cheers.

  • June 20, 2002, 6:19 a.m. CST

    Girly fantasy versus blokey fantasy

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    Yup, agree with both of you - Tolkien, much imitated, never equalled. Sword and sworcery was, I think, coined for Fritz Leiber although it refers generally to Howard, Moorcock, Vance etc all which my girlfiend refuses to read. Its the derivative post-LOTR rash of trilogies, penatolgies, dodecalogies that always have the obligatory Roger Zelazny "this is just as good as Tolkien" quote. Notice nobody ever says "This is just as good as Stephen Donaldson", "Mover over David Eddings", "Sits on the shelf next to Julian May". In defence of S & S those formerly-mentioned authors do frequently aspire to literature and you will find several of your themes, bjarki, just in a different context. Although I fink Tolkien comes across as more fairy tale than fantasy, and sits more comfortably alongside Dunsany, William Morris etc. As for girls liking fantasy, I&#39;ve met more female than male fantasy fans, and most of them identified with Eowyn cos she&#39;s less of a drip (in the books) *** Favourite characters? Easy. Boromir in the first third, Sam for the rest. Non-Fellowship characters it has to be Ugluk and Grishnakh. What a pair, they should get their own show! (sort of like itchy and scratchy, only with better dialogue). Gimli has his moments too, but Legolas is not quite the wit that his father was.

  • June 20, 2002, 7:07 a.m. CST

    Ugluk and Grishnakh&#39;s Medieval Torture Hour!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I am so there.

  • June 20, 2002, 4:49 p.m. CST

    Fight Fight Fight! Fight Fight Fight! The Ugluuuk and Griiishnaa

    by Pallando Blue

    "This week, Ugluk and Grishnakh in: Gored In The Ring!" God that&#39;s brilliant, SpacePerve. I&#39;d tape every episode. *** Fave LOTR folx, hmmm... Well, they shift as the book progresses, plus, different kinda "faves" I guess. There&#39;s the one&#39;s I feel the most affection for and worry after, and there&#39;s the one&#39;s whose parts I enjoy reading the most--you know, the scene-stealers. Duplicitous of me? As in, FOTR: Frodo, the former (Gandalf #2 with a bullet); Gandalf and Strider tied for the latter--best dialogue, best action. T2T: All four hobbits in their respective predicaments really come into their own as characters (Sam with the solid edge at the end there); but of course Gollum finally takes center stage during this set, and every scene with him is perfection on the page. ROTK: my favor goes 2 parts Frodo to 7 parts Sam (makes 9); but the best reading (beside the entire Mt. Doom chap.) is any scene with Denethor. Man I hope PJ can capture the depths and twists of that character like he is on the page. ...So, I wishy-washy my way out of any real answers. I gotta face it, it&#39;s just too damn hard to choose! *** Okay, a change of topic here, and let me say right off it may be best if the non-North-American Tailenders stop reading, as the probable inaccessibility of my news may be deemed a bit cruel. I&#39;d been sitting on it since, well, early December, but I figure now that we&#39;ve turned the corner and it&#39;s closer to 2T time... and only Tailenders are watching (right?)... Now then. ***** How would you, in all likelihood, like to SEE The Two Towers a good 1-2 weeks before anyone else in the WORLD! Then make your way to Butt-Numb-A-Thon 4! ***** Let me squelch right away any hint that we got to see Fellowship at BNAT-3. Everything Harry said at the time was true: New Line and PJ would have liked to and wanted to, PJ especially, but the 9-11 benefit premier was later in the week and there was no tasteful way for us to see it before anyone else for $10 at a birthday party. A little beyond mere "tacky" that. It was a major letdown, of course, but nobody, thankfully, has ever acted like a dick about it, even as tired as we were at that point--no crybabies = a good thing. Now then. I will say, teasingly, no one&#39;s really dished out entirely what we DID see, and hell if I&#39;m going to break that trust here. [My entire livelong life I will share this only with another BNATer--if I see you at the #4 you&#39;ll get the dish! ;)] But man o man we saw some very very veeerrrry cool stuff thanks to PJ and Richard Taylor. This is how cool THEY were: they made a reel--an actual reel of film--of themselves, backstage at Weta, to us and for us and only us BNATers (and their bud Harry). Hilarious, with audience interaction, just way cool, really pumped up the party at the end of the long haul. So, sorry you completist fans, there&#39;s a PJ short you&#39;ll never get your hands on! (Maybe if you butter up Knowles, he may have been allowed to keep it...) There was some BNATer-in-joking and sly misdirection about what we got to see, and there were some guesses by the non-attendees, back in those TBs right after, but as far as I know "noone" that&#39;s not in the know&#39;s ever sussed it out quite right. And as far as I know, "noone"s spilled the beans... (Nope, wasn&#39;t "The Cannes Reel" neither, heh heh! LOTR bloopers? Nope! Yer gettin colder! hee hee heeeee) *** Anyway, it was an amazing cap to an all-around VERY fun experience--woulda been worth the trip if we&#39;d just gotten "Ali" (like was rumored at one point). Seriously, the entire BNAT was such a blast, despite the whole numb-butt thing, coffee-acid-stomach, eye-twitches etc. I&#39;d even recommend it sans PJ stuff--the crowd wasn&#39;t nearly as frightening as I feared; good movie company! And a cool town, Austin (the little time I had to see of it). Still amazed at getting some of those world premiers. In retrospect that&#39;s the only way I could&#39;ve got through uber-nutrasweet The Majestic without going into diabetic shock was the shock of gettin to SEE it (makes for a very forgiving audience); and that its print (and Vanilla Sky&#39;s-- at 3:30 a.m. wow) were so new it was like a wall-sized DVD image. Like it was 3-D. (And KING KONG! WB&#39;s MASTER PRINT! so sharp, detailed OH my god...) *** Anyhoo--The New Line people who were there were very, very cool and friendly, and obviously pleased with their audience (no movie stars for us, tho, alas). And finally my big point is this: Harry made a point of telling us all, with the NL heads grinning and nodding, that we should DEFINITELY please please be cool and hush hush about what we got to see that morning, if we want to get The Two Towers at BNAT next year! [crowd goes insane] NL people applauding along with our uproar. SO. No, there have been no PROMISES. But YES, there were definitely some warm ASSURANCES. Anyone who watched the PJ&RT reel could never mistake Harry and PJ&#39;s relationship as mere fanboy-canny exploiter. They are genuine BUDS. (The hassle it musta been for PJ, and New Line, to film that greeting, develop etc. and get it to Austin?) So while again I cannot and do not promise this, I have every, EVERY confidence based on my own eye-witness evidence and experience from BNAT-3, that if Harry puts on BNAT-4, and in the same first week of December, all attendees will (finally) get to see a PJ LOTR movie weeks before the rest of the WORLD. And believe me, I&#39;m already planning on going for tickets! I urge y&#39;all who can to go for the same! C&#39;mon, Tailenders! Can&#39;t think of a better event to put faces to handles at last, eh? (Assuming we get in...) And I&#39;m thinking, the Tailender(s) who make it in, can present that signed book to Harry in person, to add to the rest of his b-day presents. Kinda funny, that, giving him his own book for his birthday, autographed by his readers. :~) So, seriously, start thinking about some December travel! Because the more I&#39;m getting worked up about being on T2T time, the more I keep thinking about BNAT... They may very well be one and the same. [Again, all apologies to Tailenders not of this continent. Unless you can afford it.]

  • June 20, 2002, 9:15 p.m. CST

    S & S, young readers and BNAT

    by Runelord

    Bjarki, good point! I

  • June 21, 2002, 6:07 a.m. CST

    Contentious point

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    I&#39;m going to come right out and say that I don&#39;t believe anyone who says that they or their kid actually read, and didn&#39;t just skim through LOTR at 6 or 7. The Hobbit certainly, but anything else is exaggeration or myth. Hell, I read The Naked Lunch and Brave New World when I was 9, but LOTR waited another year.

  • June 21, 2002, 7:58 a.m. CST

    I&#39;m with Spaceperv...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I&#39;m no slouch in the reading department (I could read before I went to school) but no fucking way could I have done LOTR at seven - I was still Enid Blytoning and CS Lewising at that age. I might have been able to have had it read to me by someone else, but there&#39;s no chance. I think I was... God, 1978... I was... eleven. And my mate Lisa went nuts at me (she&#39;d got me to read it) because I did my usual bad habit of peeking at the last page of the book whenever things became too intense and the welfare of the characters was in doubt. ("Shut the book now, Dad, I don&#39;t want to read anymore.") So I knew Sam survived. ("Well, I&#39;m back.") However, I still didn&#39;t know Frodo&#39;s fate, so she didn&#39;t kick the crap out of me.

  • June 21, 2002, 5:20 p.m. CST

    heartbroken, shaken to the roots, grieving yet bursting with pri

    by Pallando Blue

    USA knocked out of World Cup this morning, but I cannot feel anything but amazed pride at what they did to Germany for that stunning 90+ minutes. And yet Germany converted the lone goal. As Michael Davies put it in his WC Diary: "And how does the U.S. know it&#39;s arrived at the top table? They just got their hearts broken by Germany after outplaying them. Welcome to the glorious world of international football, America." A phenomenal, historic match. At least now, as Davies also says, I can just relax and watch some great football. And sleep the sleep of ages... *** Runelord (to wrench this barely back on topic) go ahead and pop "BNAT" "butt" "numb" and/or "thon" in the search bar here at AICN, click a couple More On This Topic arrows while you&#39;re at it, and all will be disturbingly, confusingly revealed, if you keep an eye on which BNAT that article&#39;s talkin about. Or just bookmark this page to refer back to when it all eventually starts ramping up into Capital-H Hype Mode again, around October! *** Namarie, mellon. Can&#39;t believe I have to root for Germany to win it all now... >sniffle< *siiigh*

  • June 22, 2002, 3:05 a.m. CST


    by Runelord

    Hmm, Pallando, you weren

  • June 23, 2002, 2:53 a.m. CST

    a Bree-load of stuff again

    by Mithril

    Damn, with my computer out of commission I&#39;m reduced to summary messages... Well, the thought of a mint-condition FOTR DVD landing on my doorstep in a few weeks time is calming. ***Honestly, this "chicks don&#39;t read S&S" idea is about as old hat as saying "chicks don&#39;t watch action movies". Hey, I went to see The Matrix 3 times in the cinema, but I wouldn&#39;t pay a dime to go watch Sandra Bullock dancing around a dining room table in some so-called "chick flick"... Glad to see our group isn&#39;t infested with this thinking. Interesting though, I&#39;m a female fantasy fan who&#39;s never read "The Mists of Avalon". I must be perverted in some way. ***As for my fave LOTR characters, let&#39;s see: Faramir, Legolas, Fangorn, Gandalf, Gollum and Frodo. These would be closely followed by Aragorn, Pippin, Eowyn and Galadriel, with Elrond keeping the rear of the faves list. (Eomer, Gimli and a host of others are vying to get in, but Elrond&#39;s powers are still keeping them at bay.) My dad and brother&#39;s fave is Sam, while my mother favours Aragorn (with a bit of Fangorn and Gandalf on the side). Have to say, I&#39;m so glad there&#39;s so much of Legolas and Gimli in PJ&#39;s version, since in pretty much every adaptation, people seem to begin cutting the story by first removing all scenes with those two! (Heck, even Tolkien occasionally goes on at long length about what Aragorn and Gandalf are doing and then adds once sentence about Legolas and Gimli following them...) We had this 5 hour stage adaptation which was then turned into a 4.5 hour mini series. Even in the stage adaptation Legolas and Gimli pretty much spend their time standing around in the background, but at least they had something to say and kicked ass during the fights. In the mini series, though, they were relegated to just being in the background. Legolas actually has two lines during the entire 4.5 hours! And one of them we never even get to hear because he whispers it into Frodo&#39;s ear! WTF! Meanwhile, about 3 hours out of the 4.5 are spent watching the fellowship walk around in front of a bluescreen as songs (sung by Frodo) play in the background. Now I love Tolkien&#39;s poetry, but spending 2/3 of a series doing nothing but listening to music when there&#39;s so much story to get through is ridiculous, and considering the annoying voice of the guy playing Frodo and the boring melodies they&#39;d written for the songs, it was pretty much unbearable (and they managed to cut Gimli and especially Legolas out of most of the slow-motion walking scenes too. Heck, most of the viewers were probably left with the impression that the fellowship had 8 members, the way the director managed to cunningly cut away before the elf got in the shot.) And to think that the actor who played Pippin in this version had the gall to say that he thought their version was better than PJ&#39;s film when he was interviewed after the premiere! Holy Eldar on a stick! Okay, rant over now... Hey, I got nothing better to do until a cinema TTT trailer or the DVDs show up! ***Glad to hear those Aragorn vs. Saruman "opening a can of ME whup-ass" rumours have been debunked. As if we believed them anyway! Have to say though that the discussion on the fingers of Sauron&#39;s shadowy hand has got me thinking. To my mind, as PJ shoots it, it appears that Sauron loses more than one finger. It would seem to be 2 or 3. More than one digit goes flying through the air in slow motion, guys! ***And as Elanor and Vanyar have already begun the poetic stories about beautiful sights, let me share this (though not as poetically as the other two). We just came back from a holiday on the Greek island of Samos. We visited a glen between the most verdant hills I&#39;ve ever seen. The glen is the home of thousands of nightingales that sing constantly. As the birdsong echoed through the woods and the sun shone through the lush foliage as almost liquid rays of light, a small brook bubbled and frothed on our left. On our right, a house was built supported on one side by the hill, on the other by trees covered with ivy plants that crept up and on most trees covered the bark so completely that the trees looked like gigantic chia pets (hey, it&#39;s not that poetic, but that&#39;s what they looked like). The bushes concealed giant orchids, and the lush green of the plants above and around us were counterpointed by the ground, which was covered in curled yellow leaves. The following day we visited the falls of Potami, where, after passing an ancient church and a fortress built on an overhanging cliff, we walked about 2 miles on a path of the finest, most powder-like sand through the forest, occasionally crossing over the river and the smaller falls on low log bridges. All around us were flowering bushes, verdant foliage and ancient trees, many gnarled into fantastic shapes. One was like an outreaching hand stretching towards the unseen sky, while another&#39;s base had formed the shape of a wild boar. Many of the trees were hollow, with plants living within them, or containing hollows full of thick cobwebs. At the end of the trail there was an old narrow wooden staircase leading almost straight up to the hills above on the left, old wood and stone steps leading up on the right, and in the middle a clear pool of ice cold water full of hundreds of tadpoles. The pool&#39;s far end had an opening, where the water came from between the rocks. We waded in up to our knees, then our hips, then our waists, then nearly our shoulders, as we went through the opening to look for the source of the water. The smooth rocks rose up on both sides, and the occasional tadpole would swim our way and pass us. In the end, we were up to our hips in water with a big waterfall of cold water in front of us. As I waded into the basin-like area under the falls, I put my hands level to the water and felt the frothing water pass over them. I made my hands into a scoop and when I raised my arms, little balls of water played on my hands and then rolled off or broke into ordinary droplets. ***Okay, that&#39;s it for the "these places do really exist" hour, gotta go. ***And that BNAT/TTT talk has intrigued me. Damn, if only I could afford to fly over! Well, we&#39;ll see.

  • June 23, 2002, 3 a.m. CST

    oh, and I mean...

    by Mithril

    Aragorn vs. Sauron, not "Aragorn vs. Saruman". Sheesh! Obviously not getting enough sleep (you know how it is, these parties at Angband)... though those two names do get mixed up a lot.

  • June 24, 2002, 12:39 a.m. CST

    Oi vai! MorGoth, what in Udun have you done?

    by JD1866

    My beautiful Club is in shambles and UDDER disarray! The staff is down to three??? And those three are the slobbering Gollum (who, when I left, was assigned to sanitation sub-level 26-C), the senile and doddering Gaffer, and that drunken slug Gothmog? As for that Envinyatar fellow, his application was NOT approved my moi and therefore any salary due shall be withheld until further notice (besides, he smelled of greenleaf to me - perhaps Thranduil had thrown him out again?). The bar is dry and the casino is empty! Iffen this is how you manage what had been a highly profitable and lucrative venture, then I&#39;m not at all surprised that the Valar booted your sooty OLD butt out into the Void. And while we&#39;re on the topic of money, where are those ledger books? I wanna know just how much money you&#39;ve cheated me out of. *** Miami - Mazel tov on the birth of KSIII. You&#39;ll have a complimentary drink on the house just as soon I can STOCK the bar again. *** To all the newcomers - welcome and please stop by the Club Angband soon. Pay no attention to Ingold, he&#39;s still bitter that his rendition of "The Balrog Blitz" did not go platinum. *** Take care and good night! Looks like I&#39;ve got my work cut out for me to repair all the damage that you-know-who&#39;s MISMANAGEMENT has caused.

  • June 24, 2002, 9:19 a.m. CST


    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Here&#39;s a snippet of news from CA details/lordoftherings2.html (watch for the space before details). And thanks for the compliment (I think). You know, if Club Angband is hiring I&#39;m definitely in the market for a new profession. My skills include procrastination, messageboard abuse, drinking, and geekery. Got anything that might suit?

  • June 24, 2002, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Harry&#39;s Book

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Ladies and Gents, I&#39;ve finished Harry&#39;s book (I&#39;m positive you all wanted to know...) and I&#39;ve emailed BG in order to continue the book&#39;s journey. I have to admit I&#39;m a bit jealous, that books gonna be rather well travelled by the time it ends up in Austin Texas, certainly more travelled than I am. I didn&#39;t mind the book, though it doesn&#39;t cover topics I find particularly interesting. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ll be signing up to buy it any time soon. MorGy how&#39;s about a job? I&#39;m not much of a drinks waiter and I know nothing about gambling, (as I display every time I end up in a Casino, usually in a rather addled state, I might add...) but I&#39;m pretty good at maintaining order, nothing like 6 foot of razor sharp steel to keep people in line eh? Cheers.

  • June 24, 2002, 10:38 a.m. CST

    You should try this instead

    by Conan_the_Humble

    Alice, I tried your link it didn&#39;t work. This one does though, I guess I&#39;m going to see MIB2 then huh? Cheers.

  • June 24, 2002, 11:13 a.m. CST

    Finally, a peak at the reshoots (Lee is there!)

    by Pallando Blue

    Not a very detailed one,but some telling bits nonetheless. Posted at TORN here newsview/8/1024854522 [note the space in there] translated from Swedish. I can&#39;t remember, is one of our number Scandinavian? (bjarki?) Svedish? How&#39;d their translation do? Anyway, like I said in the header, Chris Lee is there for reshoots! And it&#39;s lovely to ear him say aloud, "It&#39;s a shame that The Fellowship of the Ring didn&#39;t win the best movie and director." Now then, these are the snippets that perked my ears up high enough to knock the pointy hat askew. See what y&#39;all think: "[After FOTR premiered] Peter Jackson sat down to cut and edit the second movie, while Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens continued writing new scenes for it." Oh, really? Do you mean...? "[PJ sez,] &#39;"It&#39;s no re-shoots of stuff we had already filmed 18 months ago that we are shooting here today, only new shoots.&#39; How much time in the new movie is it that you&#39;re filming now? &#39;I would guess about 25 minutes, but nothing is finished yet." Wow, 25 minutes of NEW T2T material that wasn&#39;t scripted for the original 18-month shoot? How much of the final movie&#39;s THAT gonna be? "&#39;I haven&#39;t even edited the movie yet, and I dont know for sure how long the movie will be. It will probably end up at 3 hours -- as long as the first one.&#39;" .....Veeeeelllly intelllestink..... Also, sounds like this 7-week 5-unit pick-up work is strictly T2T material, when PJ sez "We did the same thing with The Fellowship of the Ring and we will be doing this for the third movie as well." So, next year around this time, if the schedule is similar, they oughta be filming the Scouring! ;)

  • June 24, 2002, 11:29 a.m. CST

    ...and me last BNAT post

    by Pallando Blue

    Hullo Ingold! Hullo JD! What, it takes a Tailend to hit the 1 month mark before y&#39;all come slipping back outta the shadows? *** Ing, the BNAT occurs around the first weekend of December; actually, glancing at a calendar, lemme correct that and predict it to be on the 2nd weekend this year, Sat-Sun Dec. the 7-8th. I think the 8th is HK&#39;s b-day. *** For others still wondering what the hell I&#39;ve been talking about, here&#39;s probably the most revelatory TB regarding the whole BNAT phenom, display.cgi?id=10524 [with a space in there] Of course, the article itself&#39;s out of order! (frequently updated) So, start near the bottom, after the first BNAT poster. Describes the fest best there. As you read further up, describes the odd manner of gettin hold of tix. A helluva challenge! And a lotta luck. Seemed to work well enough last time though, so I don&#39;t expect them to change it. As for cost... well, it&#39;s pretty much just your own travel cost, and gettin the time free. Tix themselves are only $10! And of course, you&#39;re gonna be more&#39;n 24 hours in the theater, so that&#39;s one less night of accommodations (last year I only booked for Friday, and checked out Sat a.m. on the way to BNAT--then straight from BNAT Sun. afternoon back to the airport!). So wangle your way deepinnahearta Texas on the cheap somehow--road trip, Greyhound, lotsa ways! ...Shoot, can&#39;t do nothing about Final Exams timing, though. Anyway, the hype probably won&#39;t be generated around here until October, so I shan&#39;t bring it up again til then. Just wanted to plant the seeds early, with y&#39;all Tailenders, and without the hoi polloi overhearing too much of what I wanted to share about last year&#39;s experience, and what may be reasonably expected at this year&#39;s... *** Club A positions open? Hmmm... I&#39;d be happy to organize and run the Open Mic Poetry and Karaoke Lounge, that is if as an employee I&#39;d still be allowed to sit at the high-limit Hold-em tables and continue cleaning out the occasional high-rolling Elf-lord tourist. I like a little supplemental income to keep myself in the lifestyle to which I&#39;ve become accustomed--this wizard racket don&#39;t pay what it used to!

  • June 24, 2002, 4:42 p.m. CST


    by BG

    ...I sent you an email with my address a week ago. The email address my handle points to became obsolete over a year ago. To get in contact with me you can use

  • June 24, 2002, 5:05 p.m. CST


    by BG

  • June 24, 2002, 8:07 p.m. CST


    by BG

  • June 24, 2002, 8:38 p.m. CST

    You&#39;ve got to let me know...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Should we stay or should we go? There&#39;s a new TB. That poster is completely fucking awesome, incidentally. It makes me very happy.

  • June 24, 2002, 9:12 p.m. CST

    Well, I could use the cash

    by Runelord

    Hello, JD and Miami. Ha ha, bet you and morGoth are glad that they

  • June 25, 2002, 5:11 a.m. CST

    Uh-uh Pallando

    by Buck Teeth Soh

    You lounge lizard you - you sing, and I&#39;ll play piano. I can borrow a diamante tuxedo that would look fab on you. We could do old Dean Martin and Nick Cave numbers. Bad luck on going out, but congrats on doing better than you have since 1930. That&#39;s it, USA are contenduhs now.