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Michael Moore's BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE and a blatant plug!!!

Hey folks, Harry here... the book selling fiend that I am... I have signed my name more in the past two weeks than I did in the previous 30 years cumulative. Very weird. Seems that Michael Moore isn't above schilling for AINT IT COOL! Hehehehe... I fully endorse the idea of getting celebrities and COOL types to hold this book and take a picture that gets sent to me. That'd be a cool collection! As for his film, Lloyd Kaufman and I were talking about BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE on a near standing room only panel during SXSW and folks... Kaufman is all for Michael Moore! So without further ado, here's the report!!!!







Hey Harry,

Michael Moore's book signing tour brought him here to Ann Arbor today for the 40th Annual Ann Arbor Film Festival, and during the book signing I happened to snap this picture of him with this book I have been reading. As soon as he saw it his face lit up and he said "Oh man, this guy's great!" He really had a lot of nice things to say about you. When I told him I was planning on sending you the picture, he said to be sure to tell you that he says "Hi"

Anyway... As a treat for the festival he premiered "Bowling for Columbine" in it's entirety. It was a rough cut but it was complete. I read on AICN that he played clips from it recently, but not the whole film. What I saw was just about an hour and a half long, he explained that it was a rough cut, taken from the avid machine, and that the stock footage still had "watermarks" on them, because he hadn't actually paid for them yet. And that the sound was a little rough in spots. It was really interesting to see a work print like this, all of the news clips had the source printed on them with white letters along the bottom, and the whole thing had the avid counter along the bottom.

That said, I have to say I was really, really impressed, quite possibly his best film to date. I have heard it described as a "anti-gun" movie, and I think labeling it as such really does an injustice to the film, Moore mentions several times that he is a member of the NRA, and showed pictures of himself as a youth, gun in one hand, NRA Marksman award in the other. No, I don't think the goal of this film is gun control, but attitude control. If we as a nation are going to have all these guns and all this ammo lying around, then maybe we all need to mellow out just a tad... And not be so quick to empty our holsters.

The main theme here seems to be violence in America, and what separates us from other countries. Why is the violent death rate so astronomically higher in America then it is anywhere else on the planet. What is it that makes us so different? What is that elusive quality that makes us so special?

That is the question at the heart of the film.

And Moore's quest eventually does give a possible reason, one that I personally feel is dead on, but, I won't spoil it for you here. But it involves two white guys walking around in South Centeral L.A. eventually making it to the intersection where Reginold Denny was dragged out of his truck, signaling the start of the LA riots, and do you know what happens to the two white guys? Well contrary to what you might expect, what you've been told... nothing happens, nothing at all...

The film was at times hilarious, and at times incredibly brutal and violent, with some of the most horrific real life "caught on tape" violence I have ever seen. Including a section of film captured by the Columbine security cameras, played to the sounds of the 911 calls from the day. And although you thankfully never see actual murder, you do see the terror and watch as shots are fired, over and over... It was really pretty hard to watch, seemed to go on forever... but, it was handled respectfully.

The film also features appearances by James Nichols, brother of Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nicholas, who was a suspect himself but was released for lack of evidence. Maryiln Manson, Charelton Heston, And indentured servant baron Dick Clark.

What? Indentured servant Baron Dick Clark? What does that mean? Come on America's Golden boy Dick Clark can't be involved with anything shady... Can he? Well it appears that here in Michigan, we have this wonderful program, referred to as the "Work for Welfare" program and what we do, is we take people on welfare and we make them pay off their debt to us, the tax payers, by busing them up to exclusively rich areas like Auburn Hills and putting them to work in Dick Clark's Resturants. Makes all the sense in the world doesn't it? It truly is a win win situation, except that for one single mother it meant a bus ride of over 80 miles a day, for a welfare check that couldn't even pay rent... And kept her away from her son for days on end. How could she know that her 6 year old son had found a gun at her brother's house, when he was asleep before she got home from "work", how could she know that he decided to take it to school, when she was on the bus to "work" before he was even awake? And what was it like for her when word made it's way from Flint to Auburn Hills that her son had just entered the Guinness book of world records as the youngest school shooter? I wonder if Dick Clark gave her a leave of absence or if he called the governor and just got a replacement welfare worker?

Okay, that was more of a rant than a film review, but it is that sort of topic that has always made Moore's work, work. For some reason this sequence brought to mind the man from "Roger and Me" whose job it was to evict people, Moore handles it with dignity as his camera shines light on the insanity of a system gone very very wrong.

The quest for the answer to why America is #1 in the violent death department takes Moore to Canada, where the American and Canadian cultures are compared side by side... We learn that Canada has plenty of guns, plenty of poverty, plenty of different races, plenty of violent movies... And yet not a whole lot of violent crime. How can this be? Canada has all of the things the media and politicians blame our "culture of violence" on, but yet they can go to sleep without locking (or triple locking) their doors at night. It is a thing of beauty to watch Moore tear down the myths of pop cultures influence on violence in America. At one point he says "Heck! Most of the violent video games are created in Japan, a country which suffered 17 gun related deaths last year"

Moore also travels to Windsor, the Canadian city directly across the water from Detroit (They are seriously a stones throw away from each other) where we learn that last year they had one gun related homicide, and that was committed by someone from Detroit who came across the bridge! One of the film's highlights has two of the survivors of the Columbine shooting going to K-Mart corporate headquarters here in Michigan, to "return" the K-Mart bullets that are still stuck inside their bodies from the shooting. The students beg the representative to stop selling hand gun ammunition, but there is the usual, "I'm sorry Mr. So and So is out of town for the week" blow off that we have all seen Moore suffer in the past, but the next day they return, and this time with an army of news crews, and this time are very quickly meet by a Marketing Vice President who informs them that they K-Mart will stop selling handgun ammunition within 90 days... Of course Moore then points out that K-Mart went bankrupt almost immediately following this decision.

There was a lot more to this film, including a fantastic "stick it to 'em" ending surprise... but I'll save it for you to see. In short, the documentary is definitely worth watching, it's heartfelt, witty and thought provoking.

ScOttRa

Here's another look at Michael's new documentary!!!

Hi there AICN,

Michael Moore, the director of the acclaimed "Roger and Me" and not so acclaimed "Canadian Bacon," author of "Downsize This," star of "TV Nation", and persistent advocate of the American blue collar worker and generally liberal social agenda, was in Ann Arbor, Michigan today purportedly to give a brief talk and promote his new book "Stupid White Men" which is currently selling like hotcakes according to the various publishing charts. Instead of simply giving what must by now be his well practiced critique of the hierarchical hypocrisies of American life, however, (and he was really preaching to the choir in Ann Arbor, e.g., people cheered when the suggestion of an anarchy club came up,) he surprised us all by showing us a rough cut of his next documentary which he said should be coming out sometime in the next year. Moore said that screening one of his films for an Ann Arbor audience was a sort of coming full circle for him, as growing up in Flint he used to come down to film festivals thrown in the city and had some of his earliest and most positive film experiences in the theaters surrounding the university. Moore had the stage presence of a natural born performer, combining humor, humility, articulateness, and a passion for his views in what amounted to an outstanding presentation. His only faux pas of the evening was wearing a bright green Michigan State ball cap which elicited a handful of boos and hisses from the audience.

But onto the documentary. Currently entitled "Bowling for Columbine," the roughly two hour film features Moore essentially asking the question "Why is there such an inordinately high level of gun violence in the United States?" Sequences include interviews with members of the Michigan militia, community members of Littleton, Colorado (site of the Columbine shootings,) and Terry Nicols' (convicted for his participation in the Oklahoma City bombing) brother just to name a few. Moore explores all facets of the question and intelligently avoids easy answers; is it movies and music that are causing the high level of casualties? In asking this question Moore interviews Marilyn Manson (a frequent scapegoat for rogue teenager activity) and deftly points out that the same movies, video games, and music is seen and heard in places like Germany, Japan, and Canada, all countries with significantly lower rates of gun violence. Is it simply access to guns that make violence more prevalent? While Moore clearly shows an implied sympathy to this argument, he acquiesces that guns aren't too hard to get in Canada either so there has to be more to the problem than simply easy access to guns. Again, Moore deserves applause for refusing to put forward an oversimplified answer to a truly complex question.

"Bowling for Columbine" exudes an informed sense of humor that is prevalent in Moore's earlier documentaries. The film appreciates the ironies of the situations it presents, and allows the audience in on the joke without slamming it in our face with an obnoxious punch line. Instead, Moore tends to allow his subjects to dig their own graves, so to speak. By this I mean that he has an real talent for asking innocent and open ended questions to his interviewees who in turn give bizarre and incriminating replies that tend to make the filmmaker's point for him. The film follows an arc similar to that of "Roger and Me," including a climatic confrontation between Moore and exactly who you'd hope to see in a movie dealing with issues of gun control and gun violence.

Although the version we saw was not the final one, it was close enough to completion to make it clear that Moore has another outstanding feature on his hands. After all of the drivel turned out by most of the studios these days, I'm hoping this will get a wide enough release to make it possible for fans of smart, curious, and well executed movies to get to see it.

Call me Wolvesq.

Readers Talkback
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  • March 13, 2002, 4:08 a.m. CST

    What is this website now, MAD Magazine?

    by Lenny Nero

    All kidding aside, this is something I definitely want to see.

  • March 13, 2002, 4:48 a.m. CST

    Dear Lossinnombre

    by Almost Sexy

    Could you please expound on your previous statement? I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly?

  • March 13, 2002, 5:24 a.m. CST

    Michael Moore...

    by FD Resurrected

    ...still kicks ass. I'd still lend him my undying support him even if he joined American Communist Party.

  • March 13, 2002, 5:25 a.m. CST

    Michael Moore is the man

    by CrapHole

    Wh00t!!!

  • March 13, 2002, 5:27 a.m. CST

    Oh, so CNN is to blame?

    by Kieran

    Well Zombiehunter, at least your analysis is novel. I'll give it that. Just to fill you in, big news stories make their way around the world mighty quick these days. You can be sure that disaffected youth in Canada, Japan, the UK, Australia, France and any other western country you care to name, all were subjected to endless coverage of the Columbine massacre. All of these kids were at least as fucked up as American kids, so why didn't they join in the killing spree? You said it yourself, they didn't have access to the guns. Are you suggested that if the media would only ignore stories of violence, then we could safely hand out handguns at the school gates? Well damn, if that's the answer, if CNN is really to blame, then let's burn down Atlanta. And do it right this time, make sure CNN can never corrupt our youth again.

  • March 13, 2002, 6:04 a.m. CST

    Michael Moore

    by DonnaDarko

    I bumped into Michael Moore outside of an "alternative" bookstore in Santa Monica last year. Not only was he friendly and approachable, he spent the time to discuss his feelings on 9/11 and the Bush administration. The man is intelligent and has the ability to defend his convictions. Sell out? I don't think so. Plenty of L.A. types will just turn your back on you when they know they are recognized. Moore smiled and said "hello". I was a fan of his work before meeting him - after meeting him, I'm a bigger fan. We need folks like him to be a pain in the ass to the establishment.

  • March 13, 2002, 6:27 a.m. CST

    I figured it all out...

    by CHEET

    So I take Moore's position, and combine it with the guy who says that there is overwhelming evidence that violent media leads to real life violence... And what do I get? America is the only place in the world where people are stupid enough to copy what they see on TV! So even following your logic I'm still left with despite the rapid availability of news around the world (I saw Columbine live in IRELAND for god's teeth) the fact that these crimes happen more frequently in the US. Explain please.

  • March 13, 2002, 7:11 a.m. CST

    Mr. zombie hunter

    by Westrum

    Normally i agree with what you say, admittedly, which is why i never respond to anything you have to say. you're a bit too aggressive for my tastes, but that's just par for the territory. However, in this one something stinks...you have a novel theory, but it doesn't seem to work very well. As said by Kieran, other countries saw this too. I have several Australian friends who said all the tv stations in the country were saturated with columbine stuff, and there were no school shootings there. Honestly though, i'd be more likely to blame CNN than i would the local multiplex...mostly because CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, et al play reality...or a version of it at the very least. movies are a construct, and as long as you're aware it's fictional there's no problem...but you're forgetting that these people are likely a bit screwloose to begin with. so how do we have so many budding sociopaths and no one else does? That seems to be the more central question. To a sane mind, these things aren't going to effect your behavior; the question is why do we have so many non-sane minds?

  • March 13, 2002, 7:50 a.m. CST

    Zombie Hunter.....

    by The Tao of Joe

    Have the school shootings stopped, or have you no longer been able to find out about them? Something to think about eh? Believe me, they still happen, and kids are bringing more guns to school.

  • March 13, 2002, 8:11 a.m. CST

    guns

    by Frank Black

    I grew up in Nortern Michigan to a father who had handguns and semi-automatic weapons hidded in ever corner of the house - loaded. Him and all of his friends would spend all of their time making ammo, planning hunting trips and going to shooting ranges. For a while he even got a license to sell guns and had even more guns in the house. When he would get angry, he would walk outside and shoot the side of a dirt pile or kill the nearest bird or animal that passed him. It was for sport and release. I didn't know too many men who were not like him. Growing up, I can't count the number of times a child of one of my dad's friends` was killed by a sibling or friend playing with their dad's guns. I didn't care for hunting, but my dad always made me, and he would make me hold the legs of the deer as he gut it. Often he would shoot an animal and make me finish it off. Throughout High School, I entertained the thought of killing off bullies and had more than a fair share of guns. I could have killed every single person in the school before a cop was even notified, but I didn't and it wasn't because I didn't have the balls it was because I didn't want to kill people. Columbine never surprised me. When it happened people pointed their fingers at each other, but the problem and the responsibility belongs to all of us. America has more serial killers, more rape, more school shootings, more alcoholism and more homeless and drug problems. I am not saying America sucks, but we need to take every oppurtunity we can to explore why we have these problems. It isn't that violent movies and video games, satanic music, or porn is warping our children and it isn't that guns are evil, its that parents aren't any smarter than their children and they allow their kids access to this stuff without guidance. Nothing makes me more uncomfortable than seeing a small child with their parents at a really violent movie. When I managed a video store in NYC, parents would inisist their kids were old enough at 11 to see "Showgirls" and "Henry:Portrait of a Serial Killer," and other adult movies. There are no easy answers, and religion and family values won't save our nation's youth because they grow up seeing all of their role models lie and commit heinous acts and get away with it. Michael Moore is doing us all a service because it gets people talking, like it did in the last talkback. We all need to take a step back and find a middle ground because kids who kill don't have enough incentive not to. If their parents aren't rich and they can't go to college, they know they'll be working for the upper class kids all of their lives and to someone who listens to metal and hates conformity, that isn't an option. There needs to be a balance between classes in this country. We need to truly respect equality and tolerate differences. How can we fight terrorism if our country is so at odds? I want all the little tennis playing yuppies and the metalheads to have the same oppurtunities and live full, happy lives. I want the pro-choice and the pro-lifers to have tea. I want the pornographers to be invited to the White House for a screening of the new Andrew Blake vid. I want the klan to move to Afghanistan and live in a cave with the Taliban. We have to stop trying to control each other in this country and start trying to help each other. I love you guys.

  • March 13, 2002, 8:25 a.m. CST

    I missed that part

    by Darth Brooks

    Could you go over the part about how the availability of guns caused the Oklahoma City thing? Did McVeigh use a pistol?

  • March 13, 2002, 8:42 a.m. CST

    Just a few thoughts

    by ItsOver

    I think the American media does glorify and reward violence. An example off the top of my head, although not near the league of Columbine, is those kids in Kentucky who hit their friend with their car in order to be on Jackass. Did MTV run the tape? Nope, but tons of news anchors shook their heads and said to America's youth "Engaging in this sort of behavior will not get you on television. Roll clip." How about that guy who called the TV station and asked if they wanted to film him committing suicide while he set himself on fire? They fucking did it. Other news stations shook their heads and uh, rolled tape. Not to mention the way serial killers are treated like celebrities and don't even get me started on the coverage of "road rage." Freaks and assholes are generally rewarded rather than condemned on shit like Jerry Springer or Ricki Lake. ***** One of my heroes Bill Hicks once said that he estimated that on average America was on the emotional level of 7th graders. He might have been too kind. It seems like a lot of the public has the narcissistic world view of a two year old and acts like forth graders after watching pro-wrestling. It's too early in the morning for this nonsense, I can make more sense later, I swear.

  • March 13, 2002, 8:46 a.m. CST

    MICHAEL MOORE IS A BIGOT

    by stbintampa

    Michael Moore is one who sees evil in any corporation or someone slightly right of Ted Kennedy. He stereotypes conservatives in ways that would make liberals convulse were they applied to any of their protected groups. Unions are great --- except when they are working his shoots and he has to pay the freight. There is no such thing as personal responsibility. Actually have to deal with the consequences of your choices? Work for welfare? How barbaric. In the liberal world, the tryannical government will take care of you from cradle to grave and it will decide how much you are paid, where you will live, how you will love. The problem of violence in this culture is the result of our freedoms. You put a gun in my hand now and I would throw it away and never think of using it. The same with a knife or any other weapon. In other countries (where Moore would not be free to make such a film) much crime is not reported, there is an active black market/organized crime, and many governments treat even minor criminals with brutal measures.

  • March 13, 2002, 8:49 a.m. CST

    ItsOver

    by Frank Black

    You make perfect sense. America is not the most sophisticated nation in the world, but we could be with all of the potential that exsists here. Jim Carrey gets paid $20 million to teach our kids hot to talk out his ass, but our nation's teachers can't pay the bills. Maybe the rich celebrities should become teachers or donate some of their salaries to a fund to pay teachers better. After that first twenty million, do you really need more?

  • March 13, 2002, 9:16 a.m. CST

    More on Moore

    by Pageiv

    I met Moore in 2000 in a sporting goods store outside of Flint. He was filming scenes for the movie. So for anyone who has seen it are there any scenes from Gander Mountain in there???? He was nice and singed my NRA card. I think Moore uses sarcasm like Rush Limbaugh does, I think he is funny but wrong. God forbid if someone has to work for her welfare. Anyway he will be at the Univerity of Michigan-Flint today showing Roger and Me. I just might skip class to go and see if he shows the gun movie.

  • March 13, 2002, 9:19 a.m. CST

    stop treating him like an investigative reporter

    by kartaron

    NRA is not to blame but lets blame Kmart for selling the bullets? Where does that logic come from? Also, Japan has an average age of 75 so of course they dont have a crime rate anywhere near ours. Germany as well. Russia has an incredible crime rate... and they dont investigate or proscecute organized crime... I enjoy his wit, I just think its misguided. If nothing else I blame him for being the inspiration of those hideous TRUTH commercials.

  • March 13, 2002, 9:54 a.m. CST

    Mike and Rush

    by ItsOver

    Yeah, Mike and Rush are the flip side of the same coin...well except that Mike is clever, oh and he doesn't make facts up and his fan base is capable of critical thinking. **** Work for Welfare is the biggest scam. If these places need work done, offer jobs. Talk about sucking on the governments teat. And yes, we definitely need personal responsibility but not for corporations of course. If they fuck up its un-American not to jam cash up their asses while they intend to lay off their employees regardless of the size of the bail out. Mike's got a great bit about "Welfare Queens" in his first book "Downsize This." I can't remember if it was included in his list or not, but anyone hear about McDonalds getting like 500,000 to market chicken mcnuggets to South East Asia? I'm sick of this nonsense about "welfare mothers driving Cadillacs" I'm pissed about my tax money paying for Savings and Loan's greed and the Great Republican Penis Hunt. **** And no, I'm not a Marxist. I believe in reasonably free markets and conservative fiscal budgets but I also believe that personal responsibility doesn't stop at the penthouse.**** By the way, today is Fred "Re-Run" Berry's birthday. I'm thinking I should of taken off work on account of religious observation.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:10 a.m. CST

    There's just something very weird about America...

    by El-Topo

    ...as a country, that's all. I mean, coming from Europe, just the fact that no-one in the US can talk about schools without mentionning bullies is weird. It's like it's normal to have people beating you up every day while you grow up, some sort of Darwinian process... no wonder some people become fucked up. Oh, and if you want less violent deaths, how about tighter gun control? OF COURSE it's gonna reduce violent crimes. Carrying on letting poor kids and just about everyone in the country have access to firearms AND still vaguely hope that violent crimes are gonna decrease is the biggest fairy tale since Shrek.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:17 a.m. CST

    welfare queens driving caddies

    by kartaron

    actually I know a few of those... reminds me of the time the infamous rapper ODB (known to his friends as Baby Jesus) took an MTV camera crew to the welfare office to get his welfare check (it may have been food stamps)

  • March 13, 2002, 10:18 a.m. CST

    stdtampa you are a such a fool it hurts

    by 3x3Eye

    that you would completely miss the fact that moore thinks that welfare program is barbaric too, by using a completely disgusting result of that program. ahhhhh. moore rules. anyone see him on the daily show? he was talking about how the Taliban was in cahoots with Eron this summer at the White House for thier energy meetings. something about oil pipelines through afganistan. i love america.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:20 a.m. CST

    dick clark

    by rev_skarekroe

    Maybe I just don't understand the concept, but instead of making those people work for welfare, why didn't Dick Clark just, y'know, HIRE them? sk

  • March 13, 2002, 10:25 a.m. CST

    to the person who called moore a bigot

    by X2

    sod off, you fucking wanker. you of all people should know that he is only trying to protect the american public from heinous individuals that try to screw others that live in this country. all he is doing is saving the public from killing themselves off from these companies that are bringing them one step closer to the grave or in financial trouble. so before you start making snappy judgements about mr. moore check out his films, his TV programs and you may just change your narrowminded ways. booyah! shotgun blast thru' ya!

  • March 13, 2002, 10:30 a.m. CST

    The dangers of high school

    by Pageiv

    More kids die playing football every year than are killed with guns at school. Between 1997-2000 there were 56 football deaths and 38 gun deaths. Here is how you eliminat crime, follow Guiliani and lock the criminals up for good. The year before he became mayor of NYC it had 2200 murders, last year it was 600. Moore has pointed out that this is because of the strong gun control in the city but the gun control has been there since the 1970s. What caused the drop off in murder was finally there was someone in office who saw criminals as the bad guys and treated them as suck. Take that Sarah Brady!!!!

  • March 13, 2002, 10:32 a.m. CST

    DevilCat is correct

    by SutureSelf

    According to the International Crime Victims Survey, England and Wales had Europe's highest violent crime rates in 1999, the survey's most recent year. The Electronic Telegraph reported that the percentage of the population suffering "contact crime" in those countries was 3.6, compared to 1.9% in the United States. England and Wales also had among the highest burglary rates recorded. Those countries were surpassed in both categories only by Australia. In terms of overall crime, Australia, England, Wales, Holland, Sweden and Canada all surpassed the United States, which ranked among the middle of the countries ranked. Jack Straw, Britain's Home Secretary, was quoted as saying "that levels of victimisation are higher than in most comparatble countries for most categories of crime" and that "no one should be under any illusions about the challenges ahead.".............As for the "easy accessibility" of guns in the U.S., prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968, one could buy a gun from a catalog any time, without an age check, background check or any other check and have it shipped to your door from any state to any state. Anyone could buy a gun without a waiting period. Kids in the rural U.S. would routinely bring their rifles to school, so they could bag a rabbit for the family dinner on the way home. Even in New York City, it was not uncommon to see high schoolers with their rifles on the subway, on their way to a junior ROTC or other marksmanship event. Since the GCA, gun manufacturers must have a special federal license. They ship to firearms distributers, who must have their own type of federal license. They sell to dealers, who also must have a federal license. Every gun has its serial number checked at every stage of the manufacturing and sales process. There is extensive paperwork accompanying the purchase of every gun. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms checks the records of every federal licensee several times a year. The individual states have their regulations and waiting periods as well, not to mention more local county and municipal legal obstacles. One must buy a gun only in the state of one's residence. One must be eighteen to buy a long gun, twenty-one to buy a handgun. Guns are not more accessible than ever. They are less so.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:38 a.m. CST

    Australian gun laws and their effect on crime

    by Spab

    Between July 1996 and August 1998 Australia's state and federal governments agreed to enact wide-ranging new gun control laws to curb firearm-related death and injury. The result? "There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998." -- Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, Oct 1999 The overall rate of homicide in Australia also dropped to its lowest point since 1989 (National Homicide Monitoring Program, 1997-98 data). It remains one-fourth the homicide rate in the USA.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Moore is a Communist

    by SCOTT1458

    actually he's a hypocrite since he makes money off it...but what the hell. What? Moore is critical of the Bush Admin? Really??????????

  • March 13, 2002, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Guns dont kill people--people WITH guns do

    by Someguywithaname

    I am all for guns! Lets make trillions. But let's make sure that every species other than human is allowed near them. Humans cannot handle them. And Michael Moore is wrong about Canada. We DO have gun related homocides. We had them after Columbine and before. So many in fact that we issued a gun registration policy and have a fierce debate about it(the stupid minority hunting lobby is always bitching--as they are prone to). Our gun homocide rate is alot higher than in Europe--and our population is alot smaller. Why? They dont have guns. It is simplicity itself. A projectile weapon can cause more damage than a knife or club. A man with a revolver is more dangerous than a man with a rock. A man with a machine gun is alot more dangerous than a man with a revolver. Curbing human aggression can only go so far--but if history teaches us anything, humans will always find new ways to kill. Limit the access to the means to kill is a simple and yet effective means of reducing violence in society. Assuming that is what humans really want. Its hard to say. When we follow the example of coutries like Scotland which recently banned hare and fox hunting--then we can say there is hope. On the light side--here is a gun everyone could use: http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20020312/310851.html

  • March 13, 2002, 10:47 a.m. CST

    MORE ON MOORE

    by stbintampa

    I agree with Moore on corporate welfare. I don't believe in corporate welfare either. We flush billions down the toilet on welfare programs, corporate and social. Social programs were created to enslave people and create a voting block for the Democrats. It creates a victim culture that is ever-expanding. People like Moore want us to keep funnelling money to people because, in his condescending and left-leaning view, the government and the white man will save the poor and the minorities because they are incapable of saving themselves. That is the worst kind of bigotry and hatred. Our country is founded on great minds and self-reliance and the greatness that even lurks on these message boards. Many people have succeeded in spite of being poor and a "victim" not because of any governmment social program. Even liberal icons FDR and JFK didn't believe in a welfare state. They believed that social welfare was against all that made our country great. And I don't blame guns or violent movies for violence. Millions of us watch movies and have access to violent weapons yet we don't murder or commit violence. Many people are teased in school and don't go out and murder our classmates. We get angry or frustrated but we don't come to wrk and wipe out our co-workers or kill our children. And you can talk about people who can't think for themselves (i.e. Rush Limbaugh fans), but people on the left spew on and on about compassion, tolerance and diversity. Yet, these are the same people that raid campus newspaper offices and steal issues of papers that print things they don't agree with. These are the same people that shout down conservative speakers. These are the same people that create movies and TV shows with stereotypes and caricatures of conservatives and religious people because they cannot show three-dimensional/real conservative and/or religious characters These are the liberals that pontificate and label people who merely disagree with them racists, bigots, homophobes, etc. Yet, it seems sanctimonious, left-leaning Hollywood can't seem to hire minorities and produce enough ethnically-diverse product.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:04 a.m. CST

    Anthrax doesn't kill people. People kill people.

    by Spab

    I demand my constitutional right to bear weapons grade biological contaminants. And box-cutters.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:09 a.m. CST

    stbtampa, no those aren't liberals, those are assholes

    by ItsOver

    And what were you talking about stereotyping of conservatives? **** There are assholes on the left, there are assholes on the right. You're presumably an American conservative, do you want me to automatically lump you in with jackoffs like Ollie North, Ann Coulter, Fred Phelps, Dick Army, Bob Barr, Rush, or David Duke? What was it that George Carlin said? Those who know the least know it the loudest. **** The welfare state shtick is old. The majority of families living on government assistance are only on for a short period and are also white. **** To that other guy, ODB is dumb as a box of hammers. Was he the one who did the "first of the month" song? Anyway, I'm not naive enough to say there isn't abuse of social welfare, but name me an institution that doesn't house abuse. Awhikle back, I read about a multi-million dollar program instituted in CT to catch welfare cheats. They netted about six. If you're going to scam, there are easier and more lucrative places to do it.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:12 a.m. CST

    Some Comments

    by LeeScoresby

    We ALL glorify violence. Not just the media. Even here in the talkbacks you can see it: "Spike was much cooler when he wasn't a whipped boytoy for Buffy. Real vampires are dark and scary and cooler." or..."The new Star Wars doesn't look dark enough. I want to see the purging of the Jedi!" Those are two recent paraphrased examples. Human beings are drawn to violence like moths to light. It fascinates and excites us. Look at literature. Read Achilles (either the trad. text or the new Elizabeth Cook interpretation) and see how the "Heroes" of that earlier age were usually self-involved madmen/women with murderous impulses and scary oedipal complexes. Look at our news. On a local level we recieve very little in the way of informative coverage. instead, we get witness reactions to Church shootings and live reports from the scenes of violent accidents. The problem with this country isn't the media. It isn't the availability of guns (though I would argue that both of these things are contributing factors; either positively or negatively)It's the people. Unlike the rest of the world, we here in America (and yes, I love this country and have no desire to leave. You can still be a patriot and question authority. It is, after all, what this country was founded on.) live in a constant culture of permissiveness (sp?) that is unequalled anywhere else. We grow up believing we are the strongest and the best. We learn that if we do something wrong, there is always someone else to blame. There is no personal responsibility for almost any action these days. Everything is the fault of a manufacturer or a neglectful parent or a bad school or whatever. I mean no disrespect to those who HAVE suffered injustice, but too many others use these excuses and others to commit actions that would be unthinkable in countries where personal accountability is still a viable belief. Compound all of this with the considerable gap between the rich and the poor, which continues to widen with each passing year largely eliminating the middle class, and you have Americans who have grown up with the idea that "anyone can be anything in the land of America" finding that treasured creed to be a baldfaced lie.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:17 a.m. CST

    Why would people think I'm paranoid? I'm the one with th

    by Capt FUBAR

    http://www.a-human-right.com ********************************** Anyway, Michael Moore saying he is pro-gun is like saying coke is anti-cola. ***************************** ALL wellfare is bullshit. Corporate or Personal. The protectionism of corporations that are failing is anathema to free markets, and people down on their luck should look towards private charities for help (America is the most giving country in the planet when it comes to charity), not the government laviethan. ********************************* Don't forget kids, school shootings are popular because it is illegal to bring firearms into school! If you were a potential murderer, would you pick to try your luck at a gun show, or a federaly-disarmed school where you won't get shot? Hmmmm.********************* I'm appalled but not surprised at all at the people who feel moraly superior when a woman is raped and strangled with her own pantyhose instead of "allowing" her access to the best possible defense, a handgun with a normal capacity magazine load of 15 +P cartridges.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:18 a.m. CST

    The funniest thing...

    by RikWriter

    It seems all the local books store's copies of Stupid White Liberal...errr, sorry, Stupid White Men were somehow ruined when someone took them into the men's room and urinated on them. Can't imagine why anyone would want to do that...

  • March 13, 2002, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Crap Statistics

    by Anton_Sirius

    Those 'England has more violent crime than the US' statistics are total shite. You do realize that, right? Take a look and how they actually define 'contact crime' and such, and take a look at some of the secondary statistics (like emergency room visits as a consequence of those crimes) before you go spouting off. Not to mention wild anecdotal stories like British muggers offering change because they couldn't divide a five pound note equally among the three of them.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:29 a.m. CST

    Talkbackers showing some intelligence?

    by PattyOGreen

    Wow... a debate rages on that has nothing to do with Star Wars or LOTR or The Matrix? I think a miracle has happened. Anywho, I'm ready for this one. His best one yet? It'll have to surpass ROGER AND ME for me to get that excited, though I think Moore has it in him. Plus, I'm more on his side of this debate anyway. Gun control is not the way to stop this shit. America's trying to heal the symptoms but ignoring the true cause of it all, which is not one thing, but just an amalgamation of many many bad decisions.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:33 a.m. CST

    RikWriter

    by ItsOver

    Jeez... they used to just burn books. I guess instead of 451 Fahrenheit, we can get "98: the degree men pee...."

  • March 13, 2002, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Well, at least Moore has some taste (regarding AICN)

    by WarDog

    even if he doesn't have much for brains. Being the iconoclast he is, he continually acts like a hammer. You know, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Maybe that's where the expression "dumb as a bag of hammers" comes from?

  • March 13, 2002, 11:37 a.m. CST

    Are you gonna believe the leftists or your lying eyes?

    by RightMan

    If one needs further proof of the complete inadequacy of America's public education system or the effectiveness of the Ministry of Propaganda (AKA CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC) one needs only read these talk backs. Either that or Harry's readership is made up largely of mental defectives, which I doubt, I always thought fanboys were almost by definition intelligent. Sure, everyone wants fewer gun deaths. Sure, everyone wants poor people to be less poor. The question is, how do you go about this? This reminds me of the debate regarding welfare reform in the '90's. Consider the dire warnings regarding welfare reform in 1996: "They're coming for the children. They're coming for the poor. They're coming for the sick, the elderly, the disabled." said Rep. John Lewis (D. GA). while the Washington Post screeched that if Bill Clinton allowed welfare reform, "in moral and policy terms it will be the low point of his presidency." The picture that was painted was that republicans don't care about the poor, but only the fat cats and the wealthy. Frankly, the republicans would rather you just died of starvation, it might save them a few pennies. Yet, look at the actual results. Republican welfare reforms have nearly halved the welfare rolls. Gov. Tommy Thompson in Wisconsin has seen an 80% drop in welfare caseloads. And this hasn't been a case of merely letting people starve, in fact child poverty has declined every year since 1994 when republican governors began experimenting with welfare reform. The drop in black child poverty in 1997 was the largest in history. So, when president Clinton vetoed the Welfare Reform bill twice before he was forced into signing it, ahem, what was he accomplishing? The answer is keeping black children in poverty. The reality is that republicans were right on the issue and fought for it for the good of everyone on welfare. Yet, the perception is still that the evil republicans did not and do not care about the poor! The same is true on the issue of gun control. Every single fact says that more guns mean more safety and FEWER gun deaths. On corporations, before capitalism where were all the wonderous inventions? Where were all the wonder drugs? Where was the huge middle class with every convenience and the "poor" with cars, tv's, air conditioners and so much food many are fat? Corporations are the salvation of the poor not the enemy. Yet lefties refuse to open their eyes to reality and prefer their empty visions of utopia regardless of the facts. What a sad world we live in. Let us hope the leftists are defeated and discredited as the former USSR, that workers utopia, was.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:37 a.m. CST

    Funny Moore Anecdote

    by Corporate Mofo

    Greetings, AICNers, &#39;tis I, <a href="http://www.corporatemofo.com">Corporate Mofo</a> of <a href="http://www.fark.com">Fark</a> fame. My "day job" (when I&#39;m not <a href="http://www.corporatemofo.com/mission_statement.htm">agitating</a>, is editing social studies textbooks. Last summer, a couple of friends dragged me to WebZine 2001, a sort of get-together at CBGB&#39;s Gallery for all us pretentious New Media types. Anyway, Moore was speaking, and he had a Q&A period with the audience. Most people, as you probably know from your own experiences, tend to "ask" really stupid, self-congratulatory questions at these things. I tried a different tack: "Mr. Moore, I work for a Fortune 500 corporation, doing textbooks for our nation&#39;s schoolkids, and I was just wondering... what sort of subversive messages should I work into these things?" So, anyway, after the audeince stopped laughing, Moore said, "Unions. Make sure they know about unions, and that grass-roots movements can make a difference." Reasonable advice, I think, and one that&#39;s very true. AICN is an example of how the Web can unify many different voices into one movement. As Harry points out, when so many people speak up, the big brains in the boardroomse--be they in Hollywood or Detroit--HAVE to listen. Face it, Talkbackers: Like it or not, you&#39;re all a bunch of subversives. Keep the faith.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:40 a.m. CST

    Cruds...

    by Corporate Mofo

    The AICN forums don&#39;t take HTML. How was I to know? Could a mod please edit my last post?

  • March 13, 2002, 11:49 a.m. CST

    YEAH! Let&#39;s outlaw guns!!!

    by GimliMcGimpy

    That way, only the bad guys and the worthless Police departments would have them! Alright! Let&#39;s all get run over by the fucking drug cartel! Fuck it! Screw the states that are sorry enough to be bordering a major trafficing(sp) country! Sorry California! Sorry Texas! New Mexico! Arizona! Florida! Whoops!

  • March 13, 2002, 11:49 a.m. CST

    And now for the REST of the Australian gun control story.

    by RightMan

    Spab, yeah guy you sure are right. Gun homicides did indeed go down after the gun ban. But you forgot to mention the unforseen consequences. Did you purposely try to misinform or did you get you &#39;facts&#39; from a government school textbook? Here is the rest of the story: The bans were not limited to so-called "assault" weapons or military-type firearms, but also to .22 rifles and shotguns. The effort cost the Australian government about $500 million, said association representative Keith Tidswell. Though lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation&#39;s crime statistics tell a different story: Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent; Assaults are up 8.6 percent; Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent; In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent; In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily; There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly. Moreover, a black market allegedly has developed in the country. The report said about 1 million Chinese-made semi-automatics, "one type of gun specifically targeted by the new law," have been imported and sold throughout the country. Yeah, that gun ban sure did make things better didn&#39;t it?

  • March 13, 2002, 11:57 a.m. CST

    "We&#39;re the Hooligans! *pop!*"

    by AuntieMeat

    Wow... reading through this talkback sure has put me in a mood to listen to some good ol&#39; Bill Hicks, Relentless. "I watch the news and I see, &#39;War! Famine! Death! War! Famine! Death!&#39; Then I look outside my window- &#39;*chirp, chirp*, *chirp, chirp*, *chirp, chirp*&#39;...."

  • March 13, 2002, 12:31 p.m. CST

    -- ALERT -- One Film You Cannot Afford to Ignore!

    by Jar Jar Boinks

    --ALERT-- ALEX JONES&#39; MOST SHOCKING AND POWERFUL DOCUMENTARY EVER IS NOW AVAILABLE!! 911 THE ROAD TO TYRANNY THE GOVERNMENT NEEDED A CRISIS TO CONVINCE THE PEOPLE TO WILLINGLY GIVE UP THEIR LIBERTY IN EXCHANGE FOR SAFETY. NOW THE PAINFUL FACTS ARE IN. THE DARK FORCES OF GLOBAL GOVERNMENT ARE FUNDING, TRAINING AND PROTECTING TERRORIST NETWORKS WORLDWIDE. 911 THE ROAD TO TYRANNY DOCUMENTS THE RUTHLESS HISTORY OF GOVERNMENTS ORCHESTRATING TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST THEIR OWN PEOPLE TO SCARE THEM INTO TOTAL SUBMISSION. IN THIS BRUTAL EXPOSE YOU WILL WITNESS THE BIRTH OF A GLOBAL POLICE STATE THAT SURPASSES ORWELL&#39;S NIGHTMARISH VISION. IT&#39;S ALL HERE: THE HISTORY OF GOVERNMENT-SPONSORED TERRORISM, THE MODERN IMPLEMENTATION OF FEAR-BASED CONTROL AND, MOST FRIGHTENING OF ALL, THE NEW WORLD ORDER&#39;S FUTURE PLANS. THIS IS ONE FILM YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO IGNORE. THE FUTURE OF FREE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE IS AT STAKE. GO TO: http://www.infowars.com/911_the_road.htm

  • March 13, 2002, 12:31 p.m. CST

    TV as family member; moderation ignored

    by Hjermsted

    I&#39;m sure we all have a lengthy essay within us re: "What the *@#&! is wrong with America?!". ****** Here&#39;s my first theory: Kids aren&#39;t taught in any meaningful fashion that TV isn&#39;t real (or specifically WHY TV isn&#39;t real and HOW/WHY it manipulates us). Deconstruction of this often assaulting form of mass communication should begin in Kindergarten for crying out loud! No one should receive a graduation diploma until they can thoughtfully answer "Why isn&#39;t TV real?" in an extended essay form. Until then the more moronic of our youth will imitate what they see on the tube or succumb to its subtle manipulations. Most will simply conform by becoming obese, developing alcoholism or smoking cigarettes. The extreme minority of our youth will smoke each other. All of us will grow up mostly unaware of how our views/lives are constantly manipulated by our loudest family member: the TV. I&#39;ve traveled to many foreign countries and have concluded (unscientifically) that the U.S. has a serious TV addiction epidemic. ****** My second theory: Kids aren&#39;t taught about moderation as a life concept. In fact we&#39;re taught the opposite... "consume, consume, consume! Be number one! It&#39;s good for the economy! We can ALL be millionaires! The things you do and decisions you make have ZERO effect on anything outside of your limited sphere of existence." Environment, society, contentment be damned! As a result of this, we grow up with numerous addictions. The obvious ones such as cigarettes, alcohol and drugs plague us and are well documented. Yet there are also damaging addictions we hardly acknowledge at all (sugar, caffeine, automobiles and, again, TV). I realize it&#39;s un-capitalistic, but American society truly needs an infussion of moderation... and soon! ***** --Mattro

  • March 13, 2002, 12:44 p.m. CST

    To ItsOver

    by RikWriter

    Hey, as far as I know, the books are still readable...it&#39;s just that now they smell as bad literally as they do figuratively.

  • March 13, 2002, 12:52 p.m. CST

    Over hear morons.

    by twan_deeth_ree

    Hey everybody with your closed minds and your preconceived notions!!!! Why don&#39;t you pull your blind little heads out of your ignorant big asses and wait to hear what Mr. Moore has to say in his movie before you start to tear apart what you imagine to be his point. The MAN just loves it when you jump to conclusions based on some feeling of devotion to a "politcal party". Don&#39;t make the MAN happy. ____________________________ Oh, and one more thing, I like those Michael Moore inspired TRUTH commercials. One of the main reasons kids smoke is because they&#39;re parents don&#39;t want them to. Those commercials do a good job of making kids feel like they are rebelling by sticking it to the MAN and not smoking (which is a lot closer to the TRUTH).

  • March 13, 2002, 1:01 p.m. CST

    Isn&#39;t "anarchy club" an oxymoron?

    by Pallando Blue

    Would there be dues, a charter, club officers, etc.? (Burgeoning sketch writers, get on it!) Maybe it was used ironically so, in context, but was the cheering?

  • March 13, 2002, 1:16 p.m. CST

    I Happen To Use A Gun In My Line Of Work! Take It Away...

    by Buzz Maverik

    ...and I&#39;d look really stupid pulling an armed robbery with a knife! Somebody would hit me with a bat! And if I tried to use a bat, somebody else would pull a gun on me! So, I&#39;m sorry but until everybody else gives up their guns and bats, I&#39;m keeping my gun!

  • March 13, 2002, 1:17 p.m. CST

    Why Americans shoot each other

    by dunsurfin

    My perspective on why there might be more (serious/deadly) gun crimes in the US than other westernized countries with similarly lax gun laws is because of the death penalty. Many people here believe that others should die for certain crimes, U.S. states/the government do it every day. Not a big deal. Concern over the strength of the convictions is muted. Couple that with the national identity that the individual is superior to society. The result

  • March 13, 2002, 1:19 p.m. CST

    Huh?

    by Hyde01

    More guns equals fewer gun deaths? That&#39;s like saying more people on the road in cars equals fewer driving accidents. Or, more cocaine available means fewer overdoses. And as far as corporations being the friends of the poor- jeez, study the labor history of this country, or ANY country for that matter. Look, I love capitalism and all its materialistic wonders and our high standard of living as much as the next guy. But every "altruistic" thing corporations have done other than providing jobs (which they do because labor is a necessity... although they screw people over every time they upgrade, modernize or merge) they do because they&#39;ve been forced to, either by the government or by grassroots movements, i.e., like them or not, unions. We&#39;ve got Cancer Alley in Louisiana, oil spills in Alaska, and even the whole idea of a "minimum wage" had to be mandated by law... and even that pissed off businesses. A whole generation rendered indentured servants to credit companies thanks to "low rate" credit cards and the like. "Well, it&#39;s all their own faults! They should&#39;ve been more careful." Yeah, like that&#39;s going to happen. Capitalism is good, but it&#39;s got to have a conscience because people are in it for profit... money, money, money. Not society&#39;s best interest, and certainly not the individual&#39;s. Unless that individual is a major stockholder. So rock on, Michael Moore. I may not agree with everything you say, but we need you now more than ever.

  • March 13, 2002, 1:20 p.m. CST

    to say that gun control doesn&#39;t work cos England has higher

    by Jesus Q Einstein

    ....England has a FRACTION of the GUN-RELATED crime that the USA does (Not denying that there are still some problems). Does any one who opposes tighter firearm controls have an alternative PRACTICAL solution to cut down on the number of gun-related deaths in USA (as i said in the last report about this film- 30000+ in 1998 alone)? would like to hear your ideas. (This doco sounds interesting...)

  • March 13, 2002, 1:33 p.m. CST

    Japan and School Violence in the US

    by DarkZero

    I&#39;d just like to make two quick corrections, one of something in the article and one of something in the talkback. Firstly, Japan&#39;s culture may have more violence in video games, TV, movies, and videos, but guns are illegal in Japan. Not only are they illegal, but the laws and the culture are so strict that even the Yakuza, the Japanese mafia, is known not to carry guns, despite the fact that they&#39;re probably the most violent people in the country on a daily basis. Japan also has a small amount of school violence and violence overall, but you won&#39;t find it in gun violence statistics. Most acts of violence and school violence in Japan is done through mass stabbings (some times featuring eight or more people, because some people Japan is almost as martial arts savvy as you would stereotypically think) and people being held up with crossbows. ---- And my second correction is that if you think that schools and the US in general is getting more violence every day, please check your facts. Statistics have shown that the crime rate in the US has been decreasing every year since the very early &#39;90s, and that school violence has been dropping, too. When the media makes a big deal out of something, that means that it&#39;s a RARE thing, not that it&#39;s a common thing that happens every day and that we&#39;re just not hearing about it. Some of these people really need to take a media literacy class or something, because they have no idea how the media works.

  • March 13, 2002, 1:41 p.m. CST

    Actually, I Wouldn&#39;t Mind If THEY Took My Gun...

    by Buzz Maverik

    ...I have a back up Sig in each ankle holster, plus a little Beretta in a ballistic nylon pants-pack. And what with all the shotguns, my Uzis, my Skorpions and the Vietnam era mini-gun my wife gave me for our anniversary, I&#39;d never miss it. If I missed it too much, I could go out and dig up the crates of weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition that I have buried just in case...

  • March 13, 2002, 1:43 p.m. CST

    The Worst Thing That Would Happen If They Outlawed Guns, Though.

    by Buzz Maverik

    ...is that if I became a Hollywood player, I&#39;d have to think of a new perk to get from a producer when I write a screenplay or direct a movie. As it is, I have a standing demand that a British Purdy shotgun be purchased for me and given to me under the table so I don&#39;t have to pay taxes...

  • March 13, 2002, 1:53 p.m. CST

    To All Non-U.S. Talkbackers Who Are Wondering About Bullies In U

    by Buzz Maverik

    ...is that you have to really beat the living shit out of them. Then, they&#39;ll be your followers. That&#39;s what I always did when I got sent to a new reform school. I&#39;d find the biggest guy and I&#39;d beat the shit out of him, then everybody would give me money and Hostess snack cakes or marijuana.

  • March 13, 2002, 2:03 p.m. CST

    All this talk about America and its problems makes me feel prett

    by Milktoast

    ...being American and all.

  • March 13, 2002, 2:26 p.m. CST

    "Why is the violent death rate so astronomically higher in Ameri

    by MOMERATH

    Been to the Middle East lately?

  • March 13, 2002, 2:37 p.m. CST

    ROGER AND ME sucked! LOTR was so much better!

    by MOMERATH

    Sorry....couldn&#39;t resist.

  • March 13, 2002, 2:50 p.m. CST

    AICN talkbackers are complete fools

    by SCOTT1458

    they whine about firearms held by the citizens, yet they&#39;re the first to bitch and moan when Battle Royale isn&#39;t released here. LOL!

  • March 13, 2002, 3 p.m. CST

    no no you got it wrong

    by eruve

    roger and me ruled and so does lotr : ) and to be COMPLETELY OT, this a good discussion for a change. i&#39;m glad that harry brought up moore. moore is wonderful. did anyone see his commentary on the US elections? his party ran a FICUS in new jersey. its just hilarious and so real.

  • March 13, 2002, 3:32 p.m. CST

    I like to kill people...

    by PattyOGreen

    ...at least, on fun games like GTA3. In real life? Fuck. That would just be stupid. I just enjoy insulting passerbys instead of taking their lives away. But killing cops for fun on games is good. Mmm. Stealing cars too.

  • March 13, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Media Violence

    by TheHallMonitor

    I&#39;m a filmmaker whose first indie film has been picked up by Mr. Lloyd Kauffman over at Troma. It was made BEFORE Columbine yet has a plot, and makes social commentary, that eerily miror those events. I now have a movie, which Troma should be releasing soon on DVD, that, taken out of context from when it was made, may look like we are making fun of school shootings -- as the film is a comedy about a Dirty Harryesque Hall Monitor who will shoot you if you&#39;re caught without a hall pass. There is a point to the film, one that presents numerous views on violence in the media and how it affects the youth culture. Still, I&#39;d hate for someone who has suffered from the lunacy of these events to see the movie and be ill affected by it. That&#39;s not why it was made when it was made. It was a ridiculous premise at the time we wrote it, as violence of a Columbine-scale in schools had yet to be occuring, or at least, widely reported. A trailer is available at www.thehallmonitor.com, for those who may be interested in the subject. All that being said, I am very interested in seeing Moore&#39;s latest doc.

  • March 13, 2002, 4:15 p.m. CST

    RightMan

    by Spab

    From my original post: "The overall rate of homicide in Australia also dropped to its lowest point since 1989" (National Homicide Monitoring Program, 1997-98 data) Why quote figures if you won&#39;t quote sources?

  • March 13, 2002, 4:23 p.m. CST

    HallMonitor

    by SCOTT1458

    You and people like you are the problems. We should ban all guns, AND we should ban all references to them in movies and tv. Only then can we crush violence. You&#39;re as guilty as the NRA. They plant the supply, you plant the demand.

  • March 13, 2002, 4:26 p.m. CST

    Frank Black

    by ingram224

    I&#39;m sorry you were subjected to a childhood in which you were tought that it was acceptable to just kill any animal as it passed by if you were angry. And your dad&#39;s a sick fuck for making you hold a deer&#39;s legs as he gut it.

  • March 13, 2002, 4:42 p.m. CST

    Scott1458

    by TheHallMonitor

    Interesting point, though I believe violence was around long before guns were ever invented, let alone film and television.

  • March 13, 2002, 5:25 p.m. CST

    HALLMONITOR

    by SCOTT1458

    You made my point! My earlier post was in sarcasm...I hope you are sucsessful in your film-making career.

  • March 13, 2002, 5:59 p.m. CST

    The Liberal Guy Speaks

    by kdoc13

    First, as will become painfully obvious in the next few moments I am very liberal. I am not afraid to admit that conservatives have some valid points, but for the most part, I am right, you are wrong, deal with it. I cannot completely disagree with people more than when they say that Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore are two sides of the same coin. Has michael Moore sold out? Hell yes. More power to him though for making a buck while holding on to the values that got him there. Rush Limbaugh, is he a sellout too? Of course. Does he hold onto his values that got him there as well? Yes. But the big difference is that Rush Limbaugh caters to his audience fears and agenda. While they fit in with his view, there is a heck of a lot more to any story that Rush brings up on his shows that he ever lets his listeners hear. With that said, I love listening to Rush, it is like a propagandized version of Jerry Springer for the mindless masses. Anyone who really believes in workfare should go to their local college and request to read a copy of "Great Decisions" This text covers both sides of the issue pretty fairly. There are a lot of perils to workfare, not just the one moore mentions. Lets look at the facts. For anyone who complains about welfare, please check out the itemized version of the 2002 US Federal Budget. Less than 6 cents of every tax dollar goes to welfare programs or social services (including school lunches and medicaid.) Contrast this to 22 cents which goes to defense and less than 1 cent for education. To compare this another way. Cincinnati, the great communist....er right wing capital of the midwest raised more tax money for building two new stadiums per taxpayer than they paid to social programs. It is not rocket science to compare numbers and see which one is the largest. I dare anyone to go to the Hamilton county offices and get the numbers and compare it. The stadium tax comes out to about 8 cents per person in Hamilton County. Of course who needs job training programs that let the people being trained have time with their family. It doesn&#39;t matter what you train people in, anyone can pull themselves out of the gutter at age 38 with three kids and a job a White Castle. There is a little thing called Humanity, yes, I would love to see what I am paying in taxes go down. And yes, there are people who abuse the system. But 6 cents of every dollar? I was in the 33rd percentile tax bracket this year. They took a hell of a chunk of change off me for taxes. I would rather pay a little to give people a hand up than bail out these corporate bastards like K-mart, or the Airlines, or Enron. And trust me, we are. We are paying a lot more to them. Show me any bennefit over the last 6 months that you have recieved for the bailing out of the major airlines? Anyone? Now, lets look at people who have gotten out of the poverty cycle. They patronize your businesses, they contribute back into the system, and they provide better family environments. But of course Rush Limbaugh would rather make someone ride a bus for three hours a day each way to work than have a family. Oops, wait I forgot, a family environment is only for rich white people. Finally, the NRA. I am an odd liberal. I support having guns. They are essential for ranchers, home defense and hunter sportsmen types. Those are the responsible ones. Even they though can become overcome by emotion at some point and maybe want to use them for violence against humanity. To those who say guns don&#39;t kill people, people kill people. You are just so stupid you will never be able to see how wrong you are. A gun has no other purpose but to kill. You don&#39;t get the gun out to spread Peanut butter on the bread. You don&#39;t shoot something in hopes of giving it a really great brush burn. You shoot something to put a hole in it. And it you do that to a human, you are going to cause blood loss, and eventually death. So next arguement please. There are many reasons why we are a violent society. Don&#39;t let anyone kid you by saying the japanese aren&#39;t violent too. The history of our nation has always been violence. The history of theirs has also been voilent. But for the average person living in Tokyo, (me formerly being one of them) the practice of restraint and sacrificing some of your freedom for the better good of everyone is practiced. We are a nation that yells when a McDonalds screws up our order. The idea of restraint for the concept of harmony will never work here. And that is a shame. Tis the dawn of the decline of a republic. Good luck to you Mr Moore, and to your movie as well. If it changes even one person, then it has done its job. Kdoc13 for President 2012

  • March 13, 2002, 6:18 p.m. CST

    Right man&#39;s comments.

    by kdoc13

    One more really quick thing. Righman, I really can&#39;t begin to tell you how biased your opinions are. Over the past 8 years (since 1994) all welfare roles have been halved even in states that don&#39;t have workfare. That is one of the benefits of a good ecconomy. A lesson that seems to have been lost on right wing nutjobs like yourself. Wisconson took the workfare route, other states did not. Again, check out the "Great decisions" books at your local college. As for the guns in Australia topic. I would also request that you check out the National Homicide Monitoring Program, 1997-98 data. You may find that it shoots a few holes in the NRA propaganda you have been quoting. Yes, I too have seen their infomercial. People who want to have a real opinion on issue try to get all of the facts, not just those that are handed to them by people with the same ideologies. Nothing would make me happier than to rid the world of guns. Unfortunately, I do see some need for them even outside of military use. Find me other liberals who admit to that. I can reccomend a lot of really great books and periodicals if you would like to try to get a real view. These are not just liberal left books. Some are written by outsiders, and some are even written by conservatives. All you have to do is turn off the NRA propaganda, and the Limbaugh&#39;s, Hannity&#39;s and and Savages of the world. As much as I hate Bill O&#39;reily, he is fairly accurate, but even he can be somewhat biased. He is about the only right wing talking head I would listen to. Then, pick up "Great Decisions" and a copy of the American Sociological Review. to quote from the book of Connery, "So endith the lesson!"

  • March 13, 2002, 6:32 p.m. CST

    God Bless Buzz Maverick...

    by Barron34

    ...the Hunter S. Thompson of AICN...when all the Talkbackers divide into two hostile camps of rightists versus lefties, we can count on Buzz for a little levity...by the way, I consider myself an American Centrist, and don&#39;t pretend to have all the solutions to our problems...can&#39;t we just all get along?

  • March 13, 2002, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Moore, stop picking yourself!

    by BurnMother

    Again I have no problem with Moore&#39;s politics... But he seems to have this creepy habit of picking at himself when nervous... On a recent appearance on "Politically Incorrect" Moore was more intent on peeling off his cuticles than debating. Ick! Also, he should put the glasses back on. Both Moore and Michael Medved look grotesque without their glasses.

  • March 13, 2002, 7:05 p.m. CST

    Ingram224

    by Frank Black

    Yup, Dad is very disturbed and there are many people like him in this country. His disregard for life, human or animal, made me appreciate and value it that much more. Thanks for your kind words and sympathy.

  • March 13, 2002, 7:06 p.m. CST

    Oh, Yeah, Another Thing...

    by Barron34

    ...First, a simple guide to discerning between conservatives, liberals, and radicals: conservatives want unregulated capitalism, liberals want regulated capitalism, and radicals want no capitalism whatsoever. By the way, I consider myself a Centrist, since my views are a self-developed hybrid of conservative and liberal views, but one thing that annoys me is when conservastives immediately assume that anyone with any liberal sentiments is somehow a communist, or is sympathetic with Marxists. Listen, I have read and studied Marx (as well as Adam Smith), and I can assure you that I am extremely anti-Marxist. I am very much in favor of our free enterprise system. Yet, I still hold some political views that some would consider liberal. That does not make me in any way, shape, or form sympathetic to Marxism or Communists. It infuriates me when liberals are smeared with the pejorative "red", when they are not red at all. Guys like Harry Truman were die-hard Democrats and were the liberals of their day, but they were also Hawks, God-Damn it!! Truman and his ilk were also certainly pro-capitalist and anti-Marxist AT THE SAME TIME...for God&#39;s sake, Harry Truman dropped the bomb not once but twice!! Yet, he was no Republican, but was an honset to goodness Democrat and what I would call a "Cold War Liberal", ie, a liberal of his day that was for improving the welfare and opportunities of the common people without hampering the American economic system that allows prosperity to occur. Lastly, for those who are liberals or leftists and who are foggy thinkers: please do not call yourself a liberal if you are sympathetic to Marxism: please call yourself either a leftist, a radical, a communist, or a Marxist. Real American liberals believe in the enterprise system and understand that Marxism is a defective and anti0democratic system. If you are pro-Marxism, please do not be ambivalent about it and hide behind the name &#39;liberal&#39;. If you are sympathetic to Marxism, please call yourself a Marxist, because that is what you are. Furthermore, please do NOT call yourself a liberal, because true liberals, by definition, believe in a well-regulated capitalistic system as well as democracy and the rights of the individual. If you are foggy on whether you are a liberal or a leftist, please make up your mind and choose one or the other, because you really can&#39;t be both: either you or in favor a capitalistic system (like liberals and conservatives) or you are against the capitalistic system (ie, a leftist, a radical, a communist, etc). Please have the courage of your convictions. Also, by clarifying this, you can unburden liberals with the label of &#39;red&#39;, and free liberals of all that weight so that they (liberals) can be free to struggle with the conservatives over how much and in what ways capitalism should (or should not) be regulated. End of technical political diatribe. Barron out.

  • March 13, 2002, 8:15 p.m. CST

    Parenting

    by DoogieHowitzer

    It&#39;s verrrrry simple folks. Aside from folks with mental illnesses which may cloud judgement, most of these incidents, teens or adults, can be at least partially traced to bad parenting. Children who grow up with a strong sense of personal responsibility and respect for other humans&#39; right to live do not do these sorts of things. These parents failed long before their kids were teenagers (although not noticing bomb-making equipment and gun-collecting sure didn&#39;t help matters) American culture (I am American as well) fosters a remarkable lack of personal responsibility and respect for others. Car wrecks are always the other guy&#39;s fault, "It&#39;s the grocery store&#39;s fault I slipped on the clearly marked wet floor" "I had to beat the shit out of that guy-he looked at my girlfreind&#39;s ass" Men raised to love and respect women don&#39;t beat their wives and stalk and kill them. I could go on forever listing examples but that would be inconsiderate to my fellow TBers who I respect (except the dumb-asses) and you all know what I&#39;m talking about (again, except the dumb-asses)

  • March 13, 2002, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Guns

    by DoogieHowitzer

    Oh, and by the way, since Texas (yes I am a Texan) passed the concealed handgun law, violent crime has dropped steadily and dramatically. Road ragers and criminals thave to think twice if there is good chance their target might be packin..... Kind of like Deer Avenger for humans

  • March 13, 2002, 8:46 p.m. CST

    Those pro gun control are pro crime and death. Get the facts!

    by RightMan

    Re: Spab and those who think these stats are NRA propaganda. The use of firearms in the commission of armed robbery has declined. At the same time there has been a dramatic increase in the use of

  • March 13, 2002, 8:52 p.m. CST

    Per ZombieHunter&#39;s comments

    by Flim

    True, most of what you&#39;ve said, but actually, I live in Canada just north of Toronto and I could get a gun pretty darn easily. I don&#39;t think gun control is the issue, I think the issue is the mentality and attitude of the person in control of the gun. Whenever I handle a gun, I don&#39;t take chances. I never, ever point it at my face, at another person, and I never ever load it indoors. Always follow the guidelines and you should have a safe and fun experience. Just make sure it&#39;s locked the hell up and keep it away from your damn kids! Holy hell kids are smart. They&#39;ll find a way to get at it if they can. Statistics in the US say that 92% of the time that firearms are used in the owner&#39;s home, it is used to shoot a family member or used by an intruder on the owner. The other 8% of the time they get the bad guy. This would be why I don&#39;t have loaded weapons in or around my home.... What? Movie talkback? Oh yeah, can&#39;t wait for Blade II.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:17 p.m. CST

    "My Diner With Charleton"

    by thecomedian

    Taking a page from my old pal Buzz Maverik I recently decided to start hanging out with celebrities in comically irreverent situations. In the past few weeks I covered a lot of ground. I&#39;ve gone ice fishing in Alaska with Gene Simmons. "Comedian, The Kiss Army has a great fondness for Eskimo Shoes." I went snorkeling in the Caribbean with Don Knots.{He actually has Aquaman/Namor like powers and can communicate with manta rays}. I&#39;ve even done Coke & Tequila shots with Martha Stewart in this divey little bordello about 15 miles outside of Mexico City.{By the way Buzz, she wants her copy of "The Master and Margarita" back.} But by far my most memorable encounter would have to be My Diner with Chuck Heston. We met up at a Chi-Chi&#39;s in Silver Springs, Maryland. He was pissed because the pimply fifteen-year-old waiter forgot to put the little umbrella in his Bahama Mama. "Thanks for nothing you cheating Bastard", he griped. But once his order of Jalapeno poppers arrived he was once again in good spirits. "Chuck, I gotta ask, what&#39;s with all the guns?" His face tensed, his teeth clenched and he looked at me as if he was going to rip my arms out of their sockets. "You..miserable..BASTARD! Don&#39;t any of you realize that without our constitutional right to bear arms we&#39;d be defenseless!! Talking Apes, whacked out Hippie Albinos in Hooded Black Bathrobes and Evil Corporations looking to turn us into a dehydrated, vegetable flavored jerky treats would have free rein! And that would infringe on our other basic rights as Americans, like the right to ride motorcycles with jive talking Afro chicks or the right to cry while viewing Wildlife stock footage with Edward G Robinson. God, I miss that cubby little runt." Then there was an awkward silence and he began to do the kids puzzle on the paper placemat. "What the hell?!?! Follow the maze to the bright colored Donkey!?!?...YOU MANIACS!!!" I signaled the waiter for another Daiquiri.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:33 p.m. CST

    Kdoc13 and welfare reform

    by RightMan

    You call me a nutjob? Okay, we&#39;ve had a booming economy, except for a few short breaks, for almost 20 years now. And you think the correlation between the drop in black poverty and welfare reform, to the year, is just a coincidence? What are you nuts? Are you so devoted to leftist ideology that facts are now incapable of entering your head? Apparently it seems that since Rush and others have deigned to notice reality means it isn&#39;t so. That&#39;s where you spent all your time arguing. Ad hominum attacks completely unrelated to facts. And I&#39;m the nutjob? Democrats owe poor people an apology for enslaving them and taking their fathers away through their insane welfare program. Thats the real facts. Undisputable except to morons like you who care more about ideology than actually helping people. Who cares about results, huh? It matters more to show how much you care for the people, even if you are screwing them and their children over.

  • March 13, 2002, 10:56 p.m. CST

    by HeeHeeHee

    I&#39;d like to state, for the record, that I am Pro-Death. Oh, and Pro-Crime. I&#39;m rooting for Evil in the next election, too. That being said... I think what America needs are more health kits. If a few stim packs had been around when the shooters were rampaging around Columbine, the students would have survived. Its not like the shooters had plasma rifles. We need more available health packs, better body armor, and, if possible, extra lives for our children. Then, and only then, can our children be safe. (God, I&#39;m bored).

  • March 13, 2002, 10:58 p.m. CST

    by HeeHeeHee

    I&#39;d like to apologize for the typos in my previous post. Thank you.

  • March 13, 2002, 11:55 p.m. CST

    Rightman, do you have a clue?

    by kdoc13

    You are right, we have had a booming economy. With the lowest unemployment since the depression in the 1980&#39;s. All this since W. was inagurated. The last decent economy came about with a middle of the road democrat. The middle of the road democrat also paid down the national debt that was run up by 12 years of republuican mismanagement. Including the poster child for "workfare" Ronald R. who incidently had the largest tax increase in the modern ear of government in 1982. I will humor you and talk about black poverty and welfare reform. Since I am a black male I feel I am in a pretty good place to talk about this. The drop in black poverty is a very recent thing. Most of the real reform change occuring within the past two Presidential terms. (pay attention to this. A Dem. who was economically minded. It is an important trend.) under Clinton, like him or hate him, under Clinton theunemployment rate was the lowest it had been since WWII. When this happens, job opportunities open up for those who normally can&#39;t get those jobs. In my industry, the chance of a black male becoming the head of a major Networking Technology Company office is slim to none. And when the boom was over, these were the people who got let go. Thanks to the booming economy, companies had money to train balck and white males and females for these positions. I am sure in your comfortable little homoginized suburbia where I am sure there were very few black males, I would be willing to bet there were a lot of chances for all the rich white kids to get computer training. My neighborhood, we didn&#39;t have that. Luckily, my father had a decent job and I could afford to get the training I needed to get into these jobs. Where I come from, I am the exception. Right now, there are more black millionares in America than at any other point in history. This too is a relatively new development. The majority of them coming....you guessed it under the last two Presidential terms. So, you tell me. How has welfare reform helped the African American. It hasn&#39;t, job training and educational opportunities do. Making jobs available to people does. Real jobs, not just those where you flip burgers for Dick Clark or fold boxes for minumim wage. I am not in favor of Quotas or Affirmative Action. But at some point, people need a chance to improve their lives. There is nothing in the Bush agenda for us. School funding issues prevent poor children (mostly black and hispanic) from competing equally with the kids from the suburbs (mostly white.) You want to end welfare? Then give people training for jobs that do not involve flipping burgers for money that keeps them at or below the poverty level. Provide educational opportunities for all people not just the whites who have money. And that is where Rush and people like you (Nutjobs, yes I am calling you that again) are so wrong. And if you would like to talk to me about slavery, lets talk about it. Lets look at people like Jessie Helms (Republican) and Strom Thurmund (Also Republican) People who voted against reforms that would make it easy for Black men and women to vote. One of whom actually ran a campaign for President based on this racism. I am sure you probably agree with that too. Would you just like me to fetch you a Mint Julip and call you "Massa" Right now. How dare you talk to me about enslaving a Black man by keeping them in welfare. You are a very racist man. If you want to emancipate the black man, you get out there and talk to you party about equal education for all. Not this half ass stuff that Bush is talking about with "Standardized testing," but real reform that helps all children. But then again, that will probably take more of your tax dollars away from you. Finaly, fathers leave white people too, you racist. How much can you sterotype people in one article. There are plenty of white folks who&#39;s fathers have left too when times got hard. Some people are just weak. Color does not matter. So take your Hitler Youth comments back to the nazi compound you run in Idaho with your whacked out skinhead friends. If you want results, you have to look no further than the Clinton economy. Black people had more opportunities then than with the Presidents before. There are your results. If you really care about families and children you won&#39;t support a President that wants people to marry just anyone so they can pay the bills together, rather than make an actual family unit. So take the racist rhetoric and go home. You aren&#39;t fooling anyone. And please by all means, let me know if you want me to smack you down any more.

  • March 14, 2002, 12:13 a.m. CST

    both dumb ideas

    by Croooow

    You won&#39;t lower violence by blindly banning things, guns or entertainment. They&#39;re such intellectually lazy solutions.

  • March 14, 2002, 12:48 a.m. CST

    FYI

    by Croooow

    http://www.salon.com/june97/media/media970606.html

  • March 14, 2002, 12:56 a.m. CST

    Both Democrats and Republicans are socialists who want you dead,

    by Capt FUBAR

    Hey, what can I say. I&#39;m an anarchocapitalist. The only true law is that no one has the right to initiate force on anyone else. _________ Again, for THOUGHT, not emotion, on firearms, I suggest http://www.a-human-right.com . And by the way, my "assault rifles" ( I don&#39;t own any real ones. Assault rifles are submachine guns, not semi-auto firearms like the ilk of Chuck Schumer like to call them) are for defense of life, just like the police&#39;s. ____________ Firearms DO have one purpose, to defend life. If you think they are just to kill, then you are projecting your hostility. _________Again, Kitty Genovese sure could have used a Lady Smith, but instead, people like Sarah Brady would rather that she was raped and killed while people looked on. ______Oh yeah, and now that Rosie O&#39;Donnel has come out of the closet, she can rest assured that her anti-firearm retoric will allow another asshole to beat someone who is gay to death because because the person couldn&#39;t get a license to defend themselves. http://www.pinkpistols.org____________It is the right of every man, woman, and responsible child to buy and carry any pistol, rifle, machine gun, whatever weapon they see fit to defend themselves with, and go about their business unmolested. Period.

  • March 14, 2002, 1:05 a.m. CST

    kdoc13&#39;s rant

    by Croooow

    Funny how one name is missing from kdoc13&#39;s rant... the only former KKK member in the Senate, the man who publicly used the word n----- just last year: Robert Byrd. But because this particular bigot is a Democrat, I guess he doesn&#39;t make the cut.

  • March 14, 2002, 1:59 a.m. CST

    Talked to Moore today

    by Pageiv

    I saw Michael Moore at UofM Flint and asked him if he believed that the war in Afghanistan was about a pipline and he said, "I said that?" I said yea, it was on your website for crying out loud. Then he started talking about how bin-Laden was probably dead anyhow. Later he compared Jesus Christ to Karl Marx, in how one person changed the world. Christ would be spinning in his grave, if he hadnt left it that is. Im convinced: the Left is Loonier than Daffy Duck.

  • March 14, 2002, 4:25 a.m. CST

    So how do you pro-gun guys think we can lower the number of fire

    by Jesus Q Einstein

    or do you think that it is at an acceptable level?

  • March 14, 2002, 6:02 a.m. CST

    Kdoc13 is clearly insane, par for the leftist course

    by RightMan

    And now I&#39;m a racist. You are a little ridiculous man. Not because of your race, but because of your ideas. Last point, on education blacks are being held down not by republicans but by democrats, the NAACP and the NEA. Try reading some conservative black authors like Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams, they&#39;ll tell it to you straight. Of course, you&#39;ll probably just call them "Uncle Tom&#39;s" who are tools of the white man. Is your next rant going to be how pool is racist with the white cue ball being whites and the green felt table representing the earth and the game is only won when the black eight ball gets knocked off the table? Or are you going to go off into Farrakhan land (now theres a racist!) and start talking about mystical math and the importance of the number 19? That you can&#39;t even give Ronald Reagan, under whom tremendous gains were made by blacks into the middle class and who cut the highest marginal tax rate from an obscene 70% to 29% thus enabling the economic boom we&#39;ve had since then, shows you are not even worth talking to because you do not live in reality. You know what you believe and no facts are going to get in your way. I feel sorry for black people who feel (notice I didn&#39;t say think) like you do. It is too bad people like Shannon Reeves (former head of the Oakland, CA NAACP before he was run out on a rail for supporting Bush), Ken Hamblin, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell and all the wonderful black conservatives are not leaders in the black community instead of Jesse "Shakedown" Jackson, Al "start a race riot and get people killed" Sharpton, Louis "I hates me some hooked nose bagel eating Jews" Farrakhan not to mention the "Lets stand against vouchers even though it will help poor black kids" NAACP. This is my last post on the topic. If I were to come back to this thread again no doubt I&#39;d find you accusing me of being a baby raper or something even more insane.

  • March 14, 2002, 6:20 a.m. CST

    Why No One Reads Talkbacks for Insightful Political Debate

    by RoMan

    Such charming naivete on either side. Anyone yapping about the "astronomical" rate of violent death by firearms in America has serious problems. As well, most of the posters here don&#39;t seem to notice there&#39;s a big world out there beyond North America and Europe.<br> Anyway, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm for those of you who are petrified to go out at night.

  • March 14, 2002, 7:59 a.m. CST

    Jesus Q Einsten

    by RightMan

    Last post I promise. You asked the question, so how do we reduce gun violence? The answer is terrifically complex just as the problem is. The first thing you have to realize is there is no such thing as utopia. Bad things happen. Always have, always will. Aiming for 100% end of evil only leads to totalitarianism and the end of freedom which is evil magnified to the nth degree. The best remedy is freedom combined with consequences for evil behavior. While not exhaustive (though to anyone who actually reads this it will seem so) here is my package solution based on facts, reason, and previously proved results: Legalize drugs, enforce existing laws, marginalize race-hustlers like Jesse Jackson, death penalty for premeditated murder quickly and surely, economic reforms. On legalization, pot should be sold in liquor stores and hard drugs should be legalized in the following fashion which would nearly end their use within a generation. Over a decade ago there was a study in Britain (no I don&#39;t have the source, it was more than 10 years ago when I read the study) where heroin users were given free heroin if they came in for an hour long group therapy session with other heroin users. The results were: there is a 10% quit rate of users each year as people mature and grow out of it. This doubled to 20%. Crime went down since people didn&#39;t have to rob, burgle, or hook to afford their habit. Employment went up. Most street level dealers deal to get their own supply. With no street level dealers with an incentive to hook more people, usually kids looking for pot, there would be few converts. This would seriously work, and if our society survives will be our eventual answer. The curbs on gang violence as well, over turf, should be obvious. Guns must be relegalized everywhere and concealed carry permits should be the norm in every state. This is proven to reduce crime and it is obvious why. Crooks want money not instant death. Read John Lott. One county in Florida passed a law where every home was REQUIRED to have a gun (not unlike the Swiss where crime is almost nonexistent) and crime and murder dropped through the floor. There should be instant background checks, and here is the key, existing laws should be enforced. If a felon tries to buy a gun, that is a felony. They should be arrested and charged. This is also proven, in the few areas it is done, to be effective. One large problem in the black community with so many black on black murders, after gangs which I have addressed, is hopelessness. Rather than focusing on the opportunities for black people, I&#39;ve met so many Africans who come to America with nothing who can&#39;t understand American blacks, race hustlers like Sharpton and Jesse try to stir up racial animosity for their own rewards. This leads to hopelessness for black kids, "The entirety of the country is out to get you!" How could they be expected to be willing to exert themselves in the hopes of success if they believe that crap? While non homogenous societies by definition have more friction and problems than homogenous societies the cause of minorities is not served by focusing on something that happened 130 years ago to the exclusion of the wonderful opportunities of the day. Over time as the migration of blacks in the middle class CONTINUES we will see a virtual end to even the racism of the evil KKK&#39;rs and the despondancy of black youth evident in education being regarded as "acting white". Though there will always be small people who blame others for their own failings at least now there will be no (intellectual) ammunition. Similarly we must end affirmative action which send the message that blacks aren&#39;t good enough to succeed without lower standards. King&#39;s dream was a country where people were judged by the content of their character not the color of their skins. We must honor his dream. We must end the NEA&#39;s state sponsored monopoly on government schools. Competition will assure much better schools for our youth. In fact, places that have limited voucher systems even have better PUBLIC schools as they are forced to compete for students. Shocking, I know, capitalism and competition does work after all. Economically we must end corporate taxes, which are merely a means of hiding taxes as corporations only have money they get from consumers. We must also pass a flat tax and end this insane tax code which requires businesses to pay $400 billion anually to accountants and such just to comply (Enron in part was enabled in part by our idiotic tax code). This is wasted money that saps our nations economic strength. As our nation experiences tremendous economic gains (Russia, of all places passed a 14% flat tax and experienced immediate amazing growth) more people can/will be employed at higher wages (nothing better than a sellers market for laborers) which will help end welfare and the anomie it engenders in poor populations. Again, corporations and freedom are the salvation of the poor not their enemy. Freedom is always the answer. A final step I would push for is privatization of Social Security as the racket we currently have is a disgrace. Bottom line, rather than retiring a millionaire (due to the wonders of compound interest under a private system) able to pay for your own health care with money to pass on to your children under our current system (assuming it is still around) you are dependent on the government and would get $1100 a month. What a freakin scam. Thanks to Roosevelt and the lefties blacks are poor, uneducated, and without hope rather than rich, educated and enthusiastically enjoying the greatness of America. I firmly believe that these steps, in conjuction would have an amazing impact on our society (they have everywhere they&#39;ve been tried) and seriously curb crime, violence, racism, anomie, despondency and increase freedom, self reliance, and help further release the genius of America to produce wonder drugs, amazing inventions and continue to raise the living standard of the rest of the socialist world. It is a shame that the left has so successfully pulled America from the roots that made her great. The left and liberals are not consciously evil, and have contributed much in the past. I admit they seek the greatest good. I only wish that they would listen to facts and reason rather than be blinded by ideology and slavishly devoted to proven discredited ideas which only produce unintended consequence which hurt people rather than help. Good intentions are nice, but aren&#39;t results better? It is difficult to read/edit what one writes under this system. I hope it is comprehensible to you Jesus. Feel free to read conservative writers to further your education.

  • March 14, 2002, 10:14 a.m. CST

    to the guy who talked to moore

    by X2

    the comment you made about Christ spinning in His grave wasn&#39;t blasphemous but misguided. check out the good book you may be surprised or better yet check out King of Kings, The Greatest Story Ever Told, The Robe, Jesus of Nazareth and you will find out that He actually rose from the grave on the third day, no body in the tomb. in your face, chump!

  • March 14, 2002, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Rightman....

    by Jesus Q Einstein

    Thanks for posting a response to my question. I can&#39;t say i agree with all of what you suggest, or that you have changed my mind regarding firearms- Personally I still believe in tighter controls on the availability of guns. I&#39;m not saying that this would combat any wider social problems or tackle the causes of crime, but it would surely reduce the number of people killed by firearms. Still...thanks again for reply......apologies for brevity of my response!

  • March 14, 2002, 12:44 p.m. CST

    Rightman, I agree, but.....

    by twan_deeth_ree

    The same could be said about a vast majority of the political right: "I only wish that they would listen to facts and reason rather than be blinded by ideology and slavishly devoted to proven discredited ideas which only produce unintended consequence which hurt people rather than help. Good intentions are nice, but aren&#39;t results better?" Regarding drugs and abortion in particular, and legislating morality in general. I realize that the Republican party&#39;s association with the religious right is a relatively new development, but the infection is thourough and (seemingly) permanent. But, at this point, there&#39;s very little real difference between the Republican and the Democratic party, so it&#39;s applicable to both. It&#39;s the fundamental flaw of democracy - the politicians ignore any "controversial" ideas for fear of alienating a portion of their constituency and losing their jobs. The uneducated masses prefer the "safe, tried and true" solutions when they don&#39;t realize that just because it&#39;s the status quo, doesn&#39;t mean it works. After saying all that, I agree with pretty much all of your proposed solutions, but, alas, the chance of such ideas being implemented in our lifetimes is next to impossible. The powers that be seem pretty happy with the current situation (the War on Some Drugs, the Welfare State, the gulf between the social classes) and it&#39;s only getting easier and easier for them to fool the american public into thinking it&#39;s in their best interest to keep it that way. You only have to see an Army commercial to realize that the government has become just as media savvy as the big corporations and has started to utilize all the marketing tools (i.e. evil by-products of psychology research) at their disposal. Done with rant.

  • March 14, 2002, 1:49 p.m. CST

    responses

    by Croooow

    "Although, banning guns would be a step in the right direction." How does disarming and punishing law abiding citizens (the only people who would follow a ban - prohibition ring a bell?) solve the firearm violence problem? Then all you have are crooks with guns. I don&#39;t see how anyone opposing the drug war can call for prohibition of guns. I oppose both. As for how to stop firearm violence, here&#39;s an idea: enforce the law. The unsung problem in this country is that the laws just aren&#39;t being enforced, predators are being let out of jail early every day, etc.

  • March 14, 2002, 1:54 p.m. CST

    To Rightman

    by Croooow

    Also pay a visit to Kennesaw Georgia sometime, where the gun laws are nearly nonexistent, as is violent crime.

  • March 14, 2002, 2:11 p.m. CST

    X2, you are a chump

    by Pageiv

    Are you dumb or what? I said he left his grave, or tomb, or cave or whatever you want to call it. I just dont think Christ would have liked to be compared with the grand father of the brutal regemes in history.

  • March 14, 2002, 2:13 p.m. CST

    A Great Talkback...

    by thecomedian

    I&#39;d like to thank Kdoc13, Rightman, Zombiehunter, Jesus Q. Einstein and the rest of you for on the most thought provoking talkbacks in months. I could go into all of my own Political and sociological perpsectives regarding the issues addressed but the truth of the matter is that I&#39;ve become so disolutioned with the American political amd socio-econmic system that I just think it&#39;s a waste of time and talkback space. So, earlier I decided I&#39;d rather waste talkback space with satire. Still, I would probably agree most with Kdoc13 on most of the issues because as a fellow educated Black male in America I share most of his common experiences. ***As for you Rightman, though I don&#39;t agree with a good deal of what you&#39;ve posted and despite your obvious zealotry I do find you to be a very engaging debater and crytical thinker. The problem with some of your views and ideas regarding some crucial issues (race)is that you lack an insider&#39;s perspective. I&#39;ve been on too many interviews and worked on too many jobs where despite my education, credentials and experience I was still condescended to and ultimately dehumanized because I was Black. Racism does still exist. Not so much in the overt KKK sense but in a far more dangerous covert underlying racism that is in the hearts and minds of many. Regarding the issue at hand ei. Gun Violence in America. There are no easy answers or solutions. I couldn&#39;t even truly address that issue because truthfully because I lack perspective in it. I&#39;ve never carried a gun or felt the need to purchase one and I was born and raised in NYC of all places. To each his own I guess. But I&#39;d like once again thank all mentioned for making this an engaging talkback that didn&#39;t involve the usual "LOTR VS. STAR WARS VS. MATRIX VS. KUBRICK VS. PTA VS. JIM HENSON VS. SID & MARTI KROFT HAS A BEER AND CHEATS ON HIS WIFE" drivel that has infected this site of late. You guys would make a great AICN McGoughlin Group. Of Course Me & Buzz would probably be more suited for The Daily Show. Thanks again.

  • March 14, 2002, 2:16 p.m. CST

    Heston Speaks For All Of Us, I Think, Comedian...

    by Buzz Maverik

    Just when you think you know all the good points about guns, Chuck reminds us of more reasons (i.e. the damned dirty apes and the albino zombie hippies) why we need to pack heat!

  • March 14, 2002, 2:37 p.m. CST

    pageiv, whatever

    by X2

    I did see what you said, but the fact that you would even consider or mentioning of him spinning in his grave is downright disrespectful of the one who died for all humanity. sorry i had to say that to you, but I had to put you into your place. suckah!

  • March 14, 2002, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Kennesaw, Georgia.

    by Westrum

    Of course there&#39;s no violent crime there. They&#39;re all too busy humpin&#39; they kin-folk! But seriously...Kdoc13 is my new hero. See ya all later.

  • March 14, 2002, 3:49 p.m. CST

    One last shot at rightman.

    by kdoc13

    Again, I hate to smack you down. But I am going to. First, I would like to thank all of the cowards out there who read this page who have taken the time to send me the links to white power web pages and who have spammed me with nonsensical blatherings which they were to cowardly to post, knowing that they would only get themselves trounced by those who are not afraid to stick up for their ideas. Second, to the person who criticized me for going off on Rightman the way that I do. I will concede that I have no problems with him sticking up for his beliefs. What I have a problem with is the racist manner in which he did it. And in his latest posting continues to do. While I am making concessions, I will also admit that Robert Byrd is a racist, sorry he wasn&#39;t on my list. But if you had paid attention to it, he had never run for President on a racist platform, and also he never voted against voting rights for Blacks. I defy those people out there to prove me wrong, simply check out the congressional record. As long as we are talking racists, I could have thrown in David Duke, who I did not, and a few Texans who also served. But I will let that arguement go. Furthermore, I will concede that Louis Farrakahn and Al Sharpton are crazy and should have been locked away years ago. And I will concede that I would not trust Jessie Jackson with my money. Just as I will not trust Charles Keating and several other key Republicans. I will concede all that willingly. However, I will not say that Jessie Jackson is a "Race Hustler." that mere comment shows how insensitive Rightman is towards people who are not like him. I am sure he has never spent a day in his life being held back because of racisim. Jessie Jackson has taken a different route than a MArtin Luther King Jr. or even someone more radical like Malcom X. However the message is unity and equality. Appearantly that scares Rightman. In an equal society, Rightman would actually have to compete for jobs against people who have skills that he has or better, without being given preference because he is white. Many hiring managers will not hire a black man for any position because they worry he will not pass a drug test, or he will not have adaquate transportation, or even because they just fear having someone different in the workplace. It is 2002 and this still happens. And Rightman, rob and burgle mean the same thing, so lay off the pot, ok? I worry about you. As for the nonsense about one community in Florida requiring ever person to own a gun, it is unconstitutional. Sorry, it is. You can&#39;t ban guns and you can&#39;t force them upon people either. Sorry, but you are lying out your ass. And Switzerland there is crime, most of it involving knives or blunt objects. For those who said I was anti-gun. Please go back and read my postings. I don&#39;t agree with people running around with concealed guns or with assault rifles. But if you chose to have one for defense of your home, hunting or if it is for a business purpose like ranching, go for. Enjoy your gun, I am not standing in your way. Now,to get back to pointing out that Rightman is a racist. Please tell me my great white hope, please tell me about my own people. Please tell me from your own personal experience about hoplessness, and how there is always a way out. Because I am sure you get a great view of the projects from that little place of yours in the suburbs. To finally get back to the point I was making, which sems to go in one ear and out the other for you. Simply saying there is a way out does nothing. It is the economy stupid! People need to have access to jobs and educational opportunities. All of which come from decent economy. How are schools funded? Property taxes. So, if you are living in a school district with $100,000 homes or above, your schools are going to be much better funded than those of the kids living in the projects. Gangs are not a problem of hopelessness, gangs are a problem of lack of opportunities available. If you are in a gang, you have more opportunities than you do by being a law abiding citizen in some of these areas. Some of the people who join gangs do so for survival. It is easy to say that we hang our problems on something that happened 130 years ago. But what you don&#39;t see is how true that statement is. The supreme court ruled in Brown v Board of Education of Topeka that the problem of separate but equal doesn&#39;t work. Black Americans were still getting treated inferiorly. And they still are today. The big push now is for Vouchers for education. Great, send your kid off to a private school. What is not being said is that private schools don&#39;t have to take your kids, even if they are part of the voucher program. They can charge fees or place requirements for students to have things that maybe a poorer family couldn&#39;t afford. And then there is the question of religion. If I am a poor muslum, do I want to send my child to a christian school? The money may be going there, and it may have the best educational program, but do I want people to tell my child that everything I have taught him to believe as a parent is wrong? Cleveland city schools have vouchers, the public schools suffer because they loose the voucher money that they would have gotten anyway to the private schools. Private schools are a privlige, public schools are a right. A right that is required by law. If you want a kid to go to a private school, great, pay for it. But the kids who have no option but to go to public school deserve a fighting chance too. I will agree that the NEA is a problem. the whole educational system is a problem. The problem with the arguement on capitalism is that you are forgetting the supply and demand curve. Private schools can limit classroom size, the cost for those seats will go up as demand rises. Vouchers in Cleveland provide $5000 for students. This does not take into account uniforms, lunches, transportation (yes because some private schools don&#39;t provide it.) I pay taxes, I paid a lot of taxes. It does not matter if I like them or not, it is a duty I have to do. And the services they support are neccessary. I don&#39;t like people taking advantage of the system. No one does. If you make more money than the guy flipping burgers, it is your responsibility as a member of the human race to see to it that these poorer people are not trampled upon. The programs that your taxes pay for do just that. A 14% flat tax benefits the rich and cuts into the social programs that help the poor. But if you would like to try a 14% flat tax, the first budget cuts I would reccomend are the highways, airports, parks, universities and business subsidies. Take away government funding from those things that the people with money get to use and watch how quickly the playing field will get leveled. Social service programs account for less than 6 cents of every tax dollar. LESS THAN 6 CENTS? Jesus, the save the children chick wants you to spend more than that to help kids who aren&#39;t in your own country. The federal government doesn&#39;t put even 3% of of your tax dollars to use in schools. If you take away corporate taxes then you can kiss city services goodbye completely. Inner City Schools get most of their funding through corporate taxes. And they get benefits from it. the more people that are educated and get higher paying jobs, the more people who can partake of their services. Once again, its the economy stupid! So again, take the hate speach you spew and crawl back to your all white world.

  • March 14, 2002, 5:09 p.m. CST

    How Do We Pro-Gun Guys Propose To Lower The Number Of Handgun De

    by Buzz Maverik

    "Lowering the number of gun deaths in America is a simple matter of imagination. For instance, I have this wrist-rocket and this ball-bearing. Now, if I were to shoot somebody between the eyes with it, that&#39;d be one less gun related death, now wouldn&#39;t it? Or, like the other night in the park, this guy pissed me off and I took a bottle of Zima away from this girl who didn&#39;t know any better and hit the guy over the head with it. Now, I don&#39;t know if he died from that, but he wasn&#39;t moving when I weighted his body down with cinderblocks and dropped him in the fountain, so there&#39;s another non-gun related death for our gun control friends..."

  • March 14, 2002, 6:06 p.m. CST

    KDoc13

    by Barron34

    Robbery and Burglary are two different things: if you are walking outside and someone sticks you up with a gun, you have been Robbed. If someone breaks into your home and steals your TV and stereo, you have become the victim of a Burglary. Robbery is theft from a person and Burglary is theft from a home. In any case, I am staying out of most of these arguments about politics because a Talkback really isn&#39;t the best place to clarify these complicted issues. A better place would perhaps be at a University, where these things can be studied by researchers who are attempting to be objective. Try and chill out, everyone. We are all Americans even if we disagree on many issues. Barron out.

  • March 14, 2002, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Hey X2

    by Pageiv

    What place is that, Bitch?