Cool News
HERC's Seen BUFFY!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Buffy 6.17 FAQ
What’s it called?
“Normal Again.”
Who’s responsible?
Teleplay is credited to longtime Joss Whedon aide Diego Gutierrez.
Does Anya go all vengeance demon?
Anya is wholly absent this week. We are told that the Magic Box is closed and no one has seen her since the non-wedding. Xander, for his part, still seems to love her.
What does TV Guide say?
“A demon doses Buffy with a powerful chemical that causes her to hallucinate, convincing the slayer that her parents are alive and Dawn never existed.”
Uh, did Hank Summers meet an untimely demise at some point?
The TV Guide listing makes it sound that way, but as far as we know, Buffy’s daddy is living and breathing and taking up valuable space in the Buffyverse.
Does the demon invade Buffy?
In a sense. He injects the chemical by poking her. (If you know what I mean.)
What is TV Guide not telling us?
Buffy comes to believe that her real life is actually the delusion of an institutionalized and delusional non-slayer named Buffy Summers. When Buffy decides she likes the non-supernatural, Spike-free universe in which her mom still lives, she feverishly decides to kill those things that tether her to her “fantasy life” as a slayer: the other scoobies.
The big news?
Buffy didn’t get canned at Doublemeat when she went AWOL to help Nick and Nora Fury two episodes ago.
The less-big news?
“Normal Again” is another sub-par episode.
The Nerds of Doom sit it out again?
No. The nerds send the delusion-demon after Buffy when they discover her closing in on their new secret lair.
Any sign of Fantastico?
Nope.
Any Buffy-Spike sex?
Nope.
Anyone learn of the Buffy-Spike sex?
“You either tell your friends about us,” says Spike this week, “or I will.”
What’s the what with Will and Tara?
Status quo. Will freaks out when she spots Tara cheek-kissing a girlfriend, but things get better after Tara turns up to save the day.
Does Will go back on the pipe?
Nope.
What’s great?
The final shot suggests that Buffy’s life of the past six years may be the delusions of a mental patient after all.
What’s not so great?
The concept is way, way, way too similar to the “Deep Space Nine” episode in which Ben Sisko is a 20th century mental patient who imagines himself a starship captain on a space station. This would be perfectly forgivable, of course, if the episode supplied any of the series’ trademark pithy drama or witty dialogue. It really feels like Team Whedon is treading water until those big events – the ones we’ve been talking about since last summer – come to pass in the season’s final episodes.
Herc’s rating for “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” 6.17?
**1/2
The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:
To order boxer shorts adorned with the image of a green, handicapable “Buffy” fanatic, click here.
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I thought this would be a great concept. Guess it suffered from execution. AD out
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I thought the ep Herc references was with Sisko as a 20th century writer who wrote about DS9. And the interesting part was that it was in the 50's, and there were issues about having a black captain, etc. AD out
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I can understand the 2 stars... AD out
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need to get back together. I swear to God, Joss won't give us a single happy ending! They have a beautiful love! A mrakculuf love! What? A miraculous love! AD out
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These TBs are really screwed up! And I'm the only one posting! AD out
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I don't have anything to say, I'm just posting now to see how many I can get in before someone else does. Is everyone still reeling from the AOTC trailer? AD out
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Having not seen the episode I can't say for sure of course... but this sounds almost EXACTLY like a storyline in Legends of the Dark Night called 'Masks' as I remember. Bruce Wayne wakes up in a hospital suffering from a number of problems and the docs tell him he is actually an alcoholic bum who imagines he's Batman. He of course triumphs in the end only to find on the last page that Bruce the alky is lying dead on the hospital bed. Without going into particulars I'm just a bit disturbed by the similarity.
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And then she goes home and finds Patrick Duffy, alive and well showering in her bathroom. While Buffy's mom is also alive and married to Bob Newhart who claims she should wear more sweaters.
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Yeah, I was really hoping this would be one of those overused sci-fi concepts that gets a fresh treatment from Team Whedon, but I guess not. I'm really getting annoyed with Angel eps kicking Buffy's Ass week-in and week-out.
But what's really got me annoyed now is how the writers of Alias, which was great as "super-spy Chick" show, and Buffy-izing it with what appears to be a supernatural plot-line. Even going so far as having Professor Walsh herself show up as the the government pain in Sydney's Ass! -
I think this type of story is very common, particularly with exploring established heroes. I just recalled a ST:TNG ep where Riker was going through a similar scenario, but the kicker was a play within a play sort of thing. He was doing a play about a prisoner, but would suddenly find himself really in prison and being told he was delusional about his service with Starfleet. AD out
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Re: The big speculations about the doomed Scoobie. I'm going for Xander because I think a former (and maybe now real) vengence demon is even worse than a woman scorned. Anyanka's got the reasons and the power to take Xan to a place where only she can enjoy him. And I'm betting that place is beyond death. Besides Xan's been on the mealymouth path for a long time now. He's been gradually pushed toward the door. It's only a matter of the cane yanking him backstage now. I used to love him, but alas he's nothing now.
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Herc! When are you going to give us your take on the big news flying around? We need a spoiler update!
And on Normal Again...Buffy going around trying to kill the Scoobies...sounds like more action than we've seen in awhile. It should be interesting... -
The plot device of an extraordinary, greatly-burdened person finding himself by some miracle in a normal life while his heroic life fades to a dream is so old that it is almost mythic. Wasn't the "Last Temptation of Christ" based on this concept? In comics, the first issue of Moore's
"Miracleman" used this idea. Just recently, there was a "Smallville" where Clark lost his powers and discovered that life wasn't so bad as a normal person. In the original "Star Trek," how many times was Kirk given a glimpse of an ordinary life with only to have it somehow snatched away? "No beach to walk on..." I haven't seen the Buffy episode yet, but the standard, and proper, conclusion to this plot is that the hero has to deliberately choose the more difficult path, discarding the easy road, and grows because of it. -
from this Thin Man/ Marvel comics fan. "Nick and Nora Fury" heeheehee.
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...he just want funny.
He gave last nights Alias four stars. It sucked! Why do we put some much weight in Herc's opinion? -
I think Herc's got his fingers in his ears and is shouting "Na na na na na na" and doesn't want to talk about the breaking news about the BSD. I can see his point. I found out accidentally, and I wish to hell I hadn't. I'm wondering how long the news will stay out of this talkback, though (I think I saw it in an old one, but that was off the main page). Friendly advice to everyone, steer clear of this spoiler if you can help it!
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You would also have to say Ats is a figment of Buffys mind as well as the up coming Ripper show and of course the Fray comics Joss has done.
So the concept would have worked as a season finale before the advent of spin-offs. As such now its painfully predictable in what will happen ala Buffy will grow up and come to terms with all her life problems.#####
After reading the Wildfeed the episode does not seem that bad certainly not as bad as episodes like Wrecked/DMP or As You Were but it does seem painfully obvious that the quality if the scripts and the continuity between each episode is no longer as good as it once was. Which is understandable in a show thats gon on for 6 yrs but it is starting to to reach its sell by date especialy when you compare it to Angel which to be honest these past three years has kicked the crap out of BtVS.#####
s4 failed while S5 despite many problems barely passed and s6 while starting off quite well has flumped mainly after swapping the interesting dark Willow story for a lame drug anology which in tv terms is boring and insulting as hell to watch.And 3-geeks an actualy interesting concept for villians were originaly played for laughs then cause they did not want dark Willow made more deadly but still have not been given enough screen time.## The shows best villian is Angelus from S2. Faith came close and the Mayor was fun to watch but it still is Angel as the best villian on the show. Shame cause Dark Willow could have kicked ass.
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Wanda said in her Friday column that it was a SHE. Definitely a SHE sacrificing HERSELF to save the person SHE loves. So Xander is not toast. Nor Spike. Woohoo!
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...they will make this lame ep. look like "The Body." Bleagh. And ha very ha Juggernaut -- that was exactly my thought, that the stupidity and illogic of this season will be explained by a Dallas/Newhart-like finale (someone on another board mused that it could also end up being someone's autistic son's delusion, a la St. Elsewhere). Actually, I am also reminded of the end of "Men In Black" -- although it would be a cheesy cop-out (nothing new for this season), Whedon and Co. might go for the "oh -- the whole time it was a role-playing game in which the bored Scoobies were engaged." Sheesh. How many recycled plot devices CAN they cram into this pitiful season? Not enough, I guess.
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So, Buffy gets trapped in the Nexus, where she, Joyce and Poppa Summers are one big happy family. Obviously, she'll want to stay there, until the residual image of Faith (who went there while comatose), convinces her that she's got to go back and stop the Vamps from taking over. Of course she can't do it alone, so she'll drag special guest star Donald Sutherland out with her to help. Of course, he'll die again in the process of saving the day.
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Mar 11, 2002 1:12:53 PM CST
Why all this useless speculation about who dies on Buffy? Tara i
by imafreakingtroll
I don't even watch this show but even I know this. There you go. No more speculation about Xander or anyone else. Nothing to see here move along. Go to Variety or Zap2It for details. This news is at least 2 months old.
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This is the Styler here. This needs to be said. I am sick and tired of all the losers who bitch about BtVS here week in and week out. Do you really believe Whedon is not overseeing his baby? Buffy is in season 6 and yes, although this season is not very strong, credit the writers for at least thinking creatively and not recycling the same thing. Oh and Angel season 1 was weak apart from Lindsay and Faith episodes. Season 2 had a strong middle but overall I compare it as slightly weaker than Buffy season 5. This season Angel is stronger than Buffy not in characterisation (Die Fred and Gunn, Wes is the shit) but in action. I rest my rant. Enough with the random bitch, at least bitch within reason. Thank you.
The Styler has spoken. Let the people know. -
I think this ep is going to be my last shred of hope...If it turns out to be in the vein of The Wish, only moving the action forward. It sounds to me like Buffy will indeed be hitting her "Killer" stage, as foreshadowed by Drac, and Riley in Restless, and she'll probably kill Tara herself..mm... wouldn't it be ironic if Spike was the one to lead her back to the light? And if that comes to pass, it'll give a bit more credence to Dead Things. mm...well, that's if my one last shred of hope doesn't die. And as for the whole Restless Checklist thing, that will be postponed until I start seeing things worthy of being kept track of.
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This is the Styler here. Bloody hell. Shit me. OhmyGod. Go to Spoiler Slayer and check out some of these spoilers. It appears my friends that we are headed in the general direction of absolute chaos in the Buffyverse. Team Whedon took its time which is logical I suppose but all I want now is a pure Slayer and Dark Willow cliffhanger. F*ck me, if you thought that Buffy was gonna wrap up the season tamely as opposed to Angel: ass-kickings galore, then you best think twice.
The Styler has spoken. Make it so and let the people know. -
Isn't this ep (Normal Again) going to continue in next weeks one called Asylum?
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Okay, I'm not really referring to this week's episode, but to the other HUGE spoilers that are out as of two days ago via AngelX. Huh? What the fuck is THAT about? I thought that we'd agreed that this was NOT the direction the show was taking, and that this silly bullshit would not actually happen. I mean, I've long been Herc's only defender on a certain board that relates to MKF, but that doesn't mean I expected this stuff to be exactly right! Jesus FuckBalls! Where's 93curr, or Thalya? Aargh! Fuck! // e.
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....and I come back to insanity. Stuff filled with Noxon and Fury, signifying Something. Jesus!! // e.
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The problem, somtimes, more recently, is that the season does not get going till the last few episodes (ever since s4). I always wonder why. I think its apparent this year more than any other, as it sounds like it all happends in the last few episodes. We had to wait 16 episodes before Xander got anything to do. I'm one those who hopes X/a don't get back together, cause then it will go back to their usaull bickering uselesness in next years s7. Give him a story or evil to fight on his own I say. I kinda wish the stuff thats gonna happen in 19/ 20 happend like 4 episodes ago. It should of hit some sort of climax by now. Its still goog though.
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Where the hell have you been? Everyone wants to know, not just me. It's really hard trying to quell bitchfests when you're not around, dontcha know? I could really use your input with regard to the past few eps you declined to be with us. As for the spoilers, I've been spoiler-free mostly for awhile now. Care to send some hints in an email my way sometime? I'm glad to see you nonetheless. Very very happy. ;)
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Anyone who doubts that this ep isn't somehow the calm before the biggest storm in the show's history really should go and check out http://spoilerslayer.com
It's the biggest gamble Mutant Enemy have ever taken. If they pull it off then Buffy will be back on top. It fails and well, hey Angel seems to be getting better and better.
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... he's known the identity of the BSD since last summer.
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Despite an anticlimactic wedding episode and the Willow addiction cop-out, season six has had some great stuff. Buffy and Spike have awesome chemistry, and their sex/fighting scenes are hot. The Buffy/Spike pairing has given this season its best moments, and is a welcome change to Buffy's past lame-ass human boyfriends. OMWF, DMP, and Tabula Rasa were all fantastic. Normal Again sounds like a played concept, but we'll see. I'm also waiting to judge season six against all others until it is over. I didn't care for season five until Buffy died. I think the BSD will change everything.
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Scriptwriters backing themselves into a corner, they need a plan and quick ... " Hey Joss, remember Dallas?" "Yuhuh" "We should copy that, but make it post-modern and ironic." "Aw, what a great idea Jane". Sigh.
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thinks Buffy
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I dig the show. I'm sticking with it through the low times. And I can see both sides of the argument of "People should stop bitching" vs. "Fans have a right to voice opinions". My take on it is this: we watch the show for entertainment. The Slayer is supposed to be super-human. I take this to mean that we shouldn't have to watch her muck through crap that we all go through. The show has seemingly gotten away from them ("them" to me means largely Noxon) a bit this season, with rare inspired moments of Greatness Past. I hope that all us doom-and-gloomers are wrong, that Joss and Co. had this whole thing mapped out eons ago and pull some last minute pyrotechnics to dazzle, befuddle and shut the yap of all of us who say "Ni!" or "nay". That is my hope. But let's get Buffy back to exceeding the humdrum lives of those who watch the show anyway, huh? The show has been fairly optimistic about life in past seasons. It seems out of character for the series to have Life be the big bad. Very nihilistic. And oh yeah, eat more stin. Have fun, kids.
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Does anyone know how many times we've seen Jonathan change his appearance this season? He turned into a demon and Katrina, I think.
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A real tread water ep til we get to Willow going dark and pairing up Spike and Anya, the two actors with the widest range. (Had to happen.) Here's hoping Spike takes those yummy ta-tas for many a public milking after months of fruitless mouthings of Buffy's A-cups. Finally, we'll also get the stirrings of the Buffy/Xander pairing that had to be in the works for sentimental Joss. Now if Dawn would just run away to do live sex shows in Amsterdam in between insane world-class spliffs, the final season should be set up nicely. Clearly THAT should revolve around Dark Willow breaking Faith out of prison and pausing just long enuf to bend the Slayer over a stack of dead and dying guards to initiate her into her new life with a massive black strap-on. Elegant, no?
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Guess I'd better pull out my tapes. Well, the 'spoiler slayer' thing looked like we're finally going to have the plot go somewhere. I've enjoyed the season for what it is, but it has seemed to be a meandering lummox with no destination. I'm suprised though because I've heard 'cliffhanger' bantied about and Joss has stated that he hastes 'em. (Maybe he's a little farther out the door than we realized). In any case, I get the feeling that this season is going to be the Phantom Menace of Buffy. It's only purpose is to set things in place for season 7. Especially since it's almost guaranteed to be the last. (My only question is, will Angel continue after Buffy and if so, will we see crossovers again?)
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Um . . . Buffy isn't airing when it's supposed to air in Philadelphia, due to a hockey game. Does anyone know when it's gonna air here?
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This season seems very disturbing. I'm still curious to see how this whole season comes to a conclusion. In seasons past, we have always been given clues at to how things all come together. In season Five...we had that RETARDED episode with the Troll that was brought about from Anya and Willow's bickering. Forgive me for forgetting the name of that particular episode. At the time, it seemed pointless, another *Monster of the Week* episode. But, at the season's end, Buffy has to use the hammer to defeat Glory. With this being said, where do all the freeze-guns, invisible guns, etc come into play? Things are gonna get NUTS on this show. There is gonna be a balls-out battle that will leave our mouths dropped straight to the ground. I have faith in the Wheddon team. And am I the only fan that really liked season five? I thought it was great!! And I can distinctly remember being all bummed out over the summer because Buffy had died. Thayla, EricAlan...you guys always have GREAT insight into the show...what are your thoughts?
I'm outta here! Can't wait to see how this episode pans out. -
While reading the wildfeed summary for Normal Again (just had to), I had the feeling that I was rewatching, what was it, The Weight of the World in my head. I mean, catatonia...hallucinations...poor Buffy...poor Buffy...Joyce & Hank are there, Joyce & Hank are there...what
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Hey, does anyone have any idea what is going to happen in Angel? I've gone all over the place looking for Angel spoilers and all I ever get is the same old Buffy crap. I mean, I like Buffy alright, but Angel is soooooo much more interesting this season. Why doesn't anyone ever find Angel spoilers? I NEED Angel Spoilers!! I need them or I will explode! That happens to me sometimes.... Anyway, does anyone have any spoilers (Herc? Wanna get on this? Especially since we won't have new episodes till April?) or know any sites that have Angel spoilers?
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Anyone, innocent or no, from now on who misspells my name shall be smitten down by my wrath! BurninBullwinkle, Mithril, let's gear up and start with the Philadelphia UPN distributor for the gargantuan mistake of pre-empting until St. Patty's Day this upcoming ep, then we hit Whedon-central! As a result of this lamest of botchups, I shall not post again on this talkback. I am a goddess and Glory was a cream-puff!
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See Also: Mirror Universe Kira's knock-off - Vampy Willow. They ripped off every detail of Intendent Kira, right down to hitting on her dupe. Pathetic.
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I for one have waited for these glad tidings and can't believe you didn't mention what is now well publicized! What was once only rumor, tantalizing like a nice close-up shot of SMGs tanned cleavage, now comes closer into being! This season has been such a mindnumbing wasteland as far as Willow is concerned. If I want to see an addiction storyline, I will watch a government subsidized, make-work project for no-talent writers and filmmakers, afterschool propaganda hour. But getting rid of Tara, who has been an a crusty Boat Anchor of Dullness (+3 vs. male viewers) on Willow since her introduction couldn't be a better idea. It is probably too late to save this season from its overall relationship malaise, but it provides a semi-rational motivation for allowing Willow to open herself up to the dark side of the force. Certainly, if Willow continues as the Big Bad through the beginning of next season, people will stay psyched up in anticipation. A lot moreso than if people were waiting to see if she and Tara can work through their relationship while she battles the magic addiction. Watching my dog working a juicy turd through his ass is about as compelling. Hannigan did a great job with Evil Willow in Dopplegangland and The Wish and hopefully they give Willow the same mindset once she turns evil. Not a crazy evil, we had that in Glory. And definitely not a semi-remorseful and reluctant or confused evil. Just a nice, sultry, unrepentant, and fun evil, like Vampire Willow. Bring back the leather baby! It could also give Spike a romantic interest and something to do next season instead of just continuing to eunuchly pine after Buffy. Maybe he could get that chip out of his head along the way. Anyway, I'd like to end this post with a nice Fuck You! shoutout to the should-be-working-for-communist-China mods who banned my ass in responding, rather politely in fact, to the original spoiler-breaking news at the Kitten Board. May your memories of Tara be of her dismembered corpse! Bahahaha! The rest of you can resume your Dance of Joy.
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You give this ep LESS stars than Double Meat Palace which is going down in Buffy History as one of the WORST eps EVER(and yes I am including Puppet Show and Bad Beer)
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I remember Hercules posting a spoiler about an asylum episode during the summer, that was supposed to be one of the first ~8 eps. I was surprised when I saw no reference to that on the review (we all know how Herc likes to brag about the spoilers). Same thing with the 'bsd' spoiler.. what was all that 'may or may not be a real scoobie' crap about? Anyway, I'm still in denial about that. And the ending of this ep was _so_ cool.
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This would make total sense! Buffy has been dreaming since she dived into the rift. And it seems like they may have been hinting at it. The "it was a dream" scenario is by far the lamest of the jumpin' the shark cliches. And they have given us a number of these cliches in various eps. Hell, besides the actual motorcycle stunt, the only thing they haven't done is a guest appearance by a big name star (unless you count Hinton Battle as Sweet, which was a pretty big deal.) And they even had a shark in an ep. This is freakin me out. AD out
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Actually it was better then I thought, some crappy editing cuts though. Herc missed the big help that Buffy's mom does for her, she gives a little speech about believing in her at that seemed to get her out of her funk. Whether it gets her out of the funk she's been in since dying is another thing, I think it will, but Buffy has had how many turning points and then backtracks on that subject? I got a feeling that this episode will come back into play maybe not this season but possibly the next, as a way to make Buffy doubt herself and reality. The episode of DS9 is called "Far Beyond the Stars" and is great. It was also referenced later ineffectively by the Pa Wraiths to decieve Sisko. Much like I think will happen with Buffy.
I read all the spoliers and didn't like them. My way out guess is that Tara dies, Willow keeps her alive maybe by magic, or by getting her vamped and trying to "curse" her with a soul. Possibly even calling on Rack to pull off the stuff. All leading to of course---bad stuff. -
What my question is, is Why isnt Josh, who nomrally frequents the boards, even made a comment about the way the show has been going?
He has had to have seen it and I cant believe that he would approve of the crap thats been going on all season.
Does he just not care anymore?
Is his new show taking up that much of his time?
I want to think of something good to say about this season but other than the Musical, there have been no High Points. The characters have the Blahhh and so do I. This isnt entertainment and it sure aint the Buffy I love.
Teh Buffy/ Spike thing has fallen flat and just made a mess out of Buffys Character. The whole magic thing was Blown with Willow. Zander and Anyas only scenes all year have been about planning a Wedding. A Wedding that never even happend. Nothing has been done with Dawns character ( I believe anyone can write dialoge of someone whining) and Giles jumped show. Maybe Anthony Stewart Head was the smart one after sitting though this.
Yeah, maybe everything will happen in the last 5 or 6 episodes but should we have to wait that long? They may be good but can we really forget the lack of Quality from the rest of the season?
Maybe Joyce will really be alive after tonights episode. That would be a positive thing? -
I actually like this episode (see in on Monday's here in Atlantic Canada). Yes, it is a cliched sci-fi storyline, but it is done well.
Still, things are dragging a bit here and they need to pick up the pace a bit. -
...will be broadcast on Sunday night at 8, per UPN 57's website.
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... that this whole season was secretly going down a checklist of 'jump the shark' cliches? I, for one, would buy into that. I think it is something that Joss and the other writers would have a field day with. It could really explain why enough stuff has been off-center this season. They're trying to fit some sort of protocol that doesn't jive with the Buffyverse. I would love to see it come down to a dream sequence, then they wake up and they're either back at the end of 'restless' or back at the tower and Dawn jumps, not Buffy. I have my doubts about these spoilers anyhow... there was an awful long time with nothing, then BAM!, spoiler overload. They're leaked.
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Mar 11, 2002 9:45:23 PM CST
actually freedomofspeech if I want to settle for mediocrity I
by snuffape
heh, Season 6 leaving all the 'tards howling for formula Buffy.
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..Luke Perry as Pike, Buffy's imaginary boyfriend. That would be a four-star epic.
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WHOLE SEASON WAS A DREAM? Did everyone else forget about Buffy and Angel meeting. Sure it wasn't shown but both shows mentioned it. If anything was a dream it had to be, the second half of the season. For only three or four eps.
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Mar 11, 2002 11:06:02 PM CST
Normal Again, Merick, Pike and all those goofy assed Vamps with
by thecomedian
I'll look forward to seeing this episode. A great premise would be if Buffy Summers is just some girl who saw the movie when she was 12 and became huge a fan because she had the same first and last name as the lead character. When life got rough she escaped into her own delusional fantasy world based on a dumb assed Luke Perry vehicle. That would be hilarious. But seriously, I sat through Old School Buffy on VH-1 last night and I still say that Christie Swanson is a better Buffy in a shitty movie and SMG is an O.K. Buffy on a kick ass show. It's funny but if you look at Luke Perry in that movie during the last battle with the vamps at the dance and you dye his hair blond he looks alot like Spike. Alas, Poor Super-Hot, Big Titted Christie Swanson can't get any breaks. The last part she had was a walk on in "Dude Where's My Car?". Maybe SHE should have a delusional nervous breakdown thinking she's the slayer and stake her agent. Though I would love to see Joss and company just say fuck it and shoot a TV continuity version of the original film(a flashback episode showing Buffy's origin) SMG training with a recast Merrick, Pike & Lothos. I think he did that in a comicbook adaptation a few years back. Of Course SMG would have to put on 15 pounds to look like the cubby faced little fuck doll she was in season one. Oh well, one can dream. Still and all I like the theme of this season that "life" is the big bad but I agree with most of you that they should have just skipped the whole afterschool special crap with Willow and kept the Dark Willow plot running. It would be really great if they had the balls to make BUFFY the big bad. As for Tara, good ridance. Amber Benson's a fine actress and she has a lovely singing voice but Tara was always a fifth wheel. Back when they where in High School Amy, in her brief pre-rat period as the auxilary Scoob was way cooler. Plus as an unabashed chavaunist jackoff she's WAY hotter. Fuck The Nerds, Fuck Tara, Fuck Anya I don't care if I see any of them again. BRING BACK AMY FOR GOOD.
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...regarding the advent of Xaffy.
> That's it all right, mainly because the snarky, nebbishy Xander has always been Whedon's alter-ego -- of course he'll get the girl in the end, no matter how distasteful this pairing might be (does ME really think we'll buy the idea that Buffy could ever be satisfied by the totally squishy Xander after consorting with hardbody sex-machine Spike? What are they, nuts? Oh, wait...). And there are other spoilers for upcoming events that will ensure that B/S is completely in the toilet forever, while at the same time dragging the entire season into the commode as well. And to think I once thought this show was the TV equivalent of a novel by someone like, oh, Neil Gaiman, Phillip Pullman or Angela Carter. Instead, it's just turned out to be Melrose Place or Dawson's Creek with fangs. Pity. -
I agree with you, Supah Soljah. I don't know whether it's Joss or someone else, depending on who's running things, but it's obvious they haven't gotten over the Riley rejection. "As You Were" was proof of that. This was my favourite season up through Tabula Rasa, but the early promise has been unfulfilled. Now they're telling us Buffy isn't really a hero at all, but a nutball in a psychiatric institute. I really thought this season we would see Spike get the chip out, redeem himself for failing Dawn and gain Buffy's trust and love. I thought Dawn would mature this year, but she has regressed. I also thought Willow would maybe go dark and be an exciting villain, like VampWillow was, but that looks like it will just be part of some rushed finish in which Anya, Tara and any hope of B/S are destroyed(if you believe the spoilers). Like you, I think the writers have turned on the fans for liking Spike with Buffy instead of Riley. Spike's constant beat-downs really seem to be punishment for his fans for not accepting the normal, conventional Buffy love interest. And yeah, Groo is pretty much a Riley clone, and I can't stand him either.
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Don't wait till it's into the last three episodes like you did the last time around. Priorities man!
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First off, I'm defending those who are trashing the season out of love. When a love one is going into a spiral of something and they happy-happy sayings ain't working then you go into "grab them by throat then choke while yelling" mode. We saw some great storylines (Dark Willow forming, Buffy/Spike slowly building and Dawn getting dangerous) suddenly get flushed for the "Ok, what the hell" storylines that make you want to laugh. First the Willow line gets turned into an "she's addicted to magic" when a SANE person would have saw she was addicted to the power and not the magic. WAKE UP, magic ain't drugs..you are going to need her sometime! They should have helped Willow learn to moderate and control, not quit! Now when she uses it she goes all loopey [hmm storyline making sense!]. Ok, so that one works out fine. Now then, back to Buffy/Anya boinking..so what?? I mean really? Xander flushed Anya, Buffy flushed Spike and I'm suppose to feel sorry for Buffy and Xander because they have been on the show longer?? NO! Buffy and Xander get what they deserve and frankly I think there is MORE to that boinking story than meets the eye. Now then, I can honestly say I don't care which Scooby dies as long as its not Spike. Why? Because James hasn't written this season in like the rest, he's working his tail off and to kill the best actor and character off isn't dramatic it's a sad cry for help. Dawn has been neglected. Ok Buffy, you lost your mom...BOOWHO! Dawn found out she's fake, her mom died, her sis died and then her sis came back acting screwy after Dawn was nearly wed to a demon in less than ONE YEAR! I mean, the only shrink the kid saw trapped her in her house with a demon, a vamp and a bunch of people who in all reality hate her guts. I'm not like people who are upset with Dawn whining, the kid should be having some emotional probelms and should probably hit the bottle here soon. No wonder she has a death wish. The year COULD get good but when I discover the only GOOD things it has will perish at the end makes me mad. And what's with all the nice guys getting the shaft on Whedon's shows? Spike (William actually, I mean COME ON!) and Wes (this poor guy, he gets his throat slashed for trying to protect a child and his dad...plus he's got no chick!) So what's my point? How about the nice guys finish FIRST for a change?? I say, let Angel have Cordy...Fred have Gunn..Wes with Faith (WELL WHY NOT! Give him the hottest girl in the verse! British guys can't get love around here?)..Xander have Anya (so what, she boinked Spike, so did Buffy!)...Willow and someone else (love Tara but it wouldn't work, Will's too processive and she's a mag loon)... Dawn's too young for love, unless Tara's alive and available...and finally Spike and Buffy (come on, toss William his life back.) That's all I've got, screw this Xander/Buffy crap! Lets not dimish Xander into the "well, I've tried every other male on the show other than Giles...except for that one time" role. Ok, Rant over.
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I THINK there were two DS9 eps, the one you mentioned where Sisko dreams he's a writer in the 1930s that dreams up the whole DS9 plot, but I think they revisited it with him being thrown in an asylum because this 1930s alter-ego starts regaining memories of being Ben Sisko. I'm not sure if this part was due to the Pa Wraiths meddling that was mentioned elsewhere... but then, I forget what caused that original writer-dream in the first place. As for Buffy, I hope most of these spoilers turn out false. I want some surprises, not the predictable Tara-death & Dark Willow!!! Mix it up a bit, Joss!
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Mar 12, 2002 2:35:09 AM CST
Same thing happened in an issue of Spider Man a few years ago.
by magic ninja 2099
When I saw the preview last week, first thing I thought of was that Legends Of The Dark Knight issue somebody mentioned earlier on here, pretty sure I remember a similiar episode of the animated series doing something like that as well, but anyways, same gimmicks also been done already in a Spectacular Spider Man comic from a few years ago, when The Chameleon convinces Peter Parker that he's really a science fiction writer who believes he's Spider Man in order to discover his identity.
Wasn't that bad an issue if I remember correctly, anyways, I really hope they're going somewhere with this season, like I've heard they're going to, so far the season's just been a bunch of okay, with some good stand alone episodes, with a small bit of contintinuity and plot to keep things together sort of. -
Ok, Thalya, chill... (writing your name carefully so won't be smitten - hang on, the conjugation may cause some misunderstandings...) I'm all ready and geared up, hopefully BurninBullwinkle hasn't eaten his strategic Hot Pocket reserve. Those Philly UPN bastards won't know what's hit them... until we stand in front of their smoking bodies and say some ironic Buffy-esque slaying joke. Ha ha ha! Okay, devilish laugh over. **ArchDiver, gotta say I loved that TNG ep with Riker. And the shattering effect that happened occasionally was also f-ing cool! **2GOLD, gotta agree on Spike and Wes. Good guys really finish last on these shows. Heck, all characters finish last on these shows (sheesh, Joss et co., would it kill you to let just one character be happy... not everyone has to be all "happy happy, joy joy" all the time, but just ONE, for chrissakes!)... Oh, and no X/B, please. Xander deserves more than to be end up as the next conveyor belt slayer-layer on the show. And he already was that guy for Faith, so please. If X & B get together, ME will be resorting to the daytime soap lane of having every character sleep with every other character, since apparently there are no other people around in the whole city that could possibly be slept with... sheesh. **THECOMEDIAN: yes, next we find out that all the Sunnydale things have been an delusion of Kristy Swanson-Buffy, who was shut into an asylum after her destructive prom behaviour in the Buffy movie. Guest starring will also be Pike, who keeps coming to the asylum to pine over his girl. (cue the "very special guest star" jump-the-shark cliche) Heck, Buffy's locked-away-slayer delusions will explain why every other slayer in the Buffy-verse has either died (Kendra) or turned psycho-nutter (Faith). Actually, were the writers to ever use this type of out, I'd get monumentally pissed off. And here's hoping for a big bad Willow season finale to really make our asses hang off the proverbial cliff! **zer0cool2k2, ROTFLMAO!!! Nexus indeed! (Actually, to be logical, Picard never got out of the goddamn Nexus - which clears out the problem of not having two Picards at the final showdown - and all the stuff afterwards has been just a fantasy; I mean, sheesh, after Star Trek VII, Picard has suddenly had a romantic interest on every mission. He's gettin' some! Obviously he's still in the Nexus.) **And just to add my two cents to this whole "dream/delusion-revelations-in-series/movies" thing, will mention that final episode of Eerie, Indiana, where the hero is convinced that the whole series has been just a... well, series. It's all just a ploy, of course, by that proto-Spike (honestly, charismatic antihero bad boy with bleached hair - and often a leather jacket - who sometimes helps and sometimes fights the hero) guy. Actually, now that we're on that subject, anyone remember where that guy came from. He had woken up in Eerie and had no memory of his past life, but was apparently somehow important. They revealed his past in an ep, but I fuckin' missed it! **Oh, and Back to Reality rules! "I'm on the run from the fascist police with a murderer, a mass murderer, and a man in a bri-nylon shirt!"
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please stop torturing Spike just because you're angry for liking his character more than Riley. I will honestly say that I liked Riley, and so did some of my friends. We like Spike too, and just because Joss is angry that Riley wasn't universally accepted (you still have your Firefly captain and Groo) and Marti seems to harbour some serious grudges against the character, that's no reason to alienate the entire viewing audience and loose out on potentially excellent, dramatic and thought-provoking episodes about Spike's redemption. Okay, complaint over.
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Anyone know when Fray #6 is coming out. I mean, wasn't it supposed to be out in December for gods sake?
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It is the last scene of the last episode of the show, and we see Buffy tossing and turning in her sleep, then the scene does a morph to Buffy lying on her back in a mental ward bed and the camera moves in close on her face and eyes, staring unseeing at the ceiling, fade to black, bring up credits. Was it a nightmare, a dream????? YA WON'T EVER KNOW...Now go whine.
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the other B/Sers and Redemptionistas when you say, "Maybe he doesn't care for what the audience wants from his characters (like Spike being redeemed, Dawn going away, Willow being the Big Bad, and so on), so he's put them through so much abuse and neglect in retaliation for the audience's rejection of Riley." Not everyone wants this; I especially resent how Spike has been made to lose his edge and would, if redeemed, lose any bit of cool and "vampireness" that he every had. Do you or do you not like vampire characters? If so, redeeming them is not something one does with them, as it defeats the whole purpose of their existence.
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I've only posted here once or twice, due to the rampant spoilers and annoying complaining that tends to go on here, but I just had to say that Sub-par episode this is not. I obviously don't always agree with the majority of Buffy fans ( I loved 'Wrecked'... then again, I understood the writers perspective, whereas most only seem'd to have taken the episode at face value ), but this episode is definitely my third favorite of the season, with 'Bargaining Part One and Two', as well as 'Once More, With Feeling' ahead of it. Does it really matter if it's been done before? Original ideas don't make for great television... writing does, and 'Normal Again' had great writing in spades! It was largely disturbing ( especially the last thirty seconds... it should send chills down the spine of any 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' fan... I don't think it was meant to be taken too serious, but the idea of Buffy actually being a mental patient, having dreamed all of this up... well, it freaks me out as a fan of the series ), it was paced perfectly, it made you feel for Xander, it made you feel for Buffy, and it made you feel for Joyce. And to see Buffy go all psycho!!! It was just *sooo* painful and depressing to watch. The only flaw that I saw in this episode was that the realism Buffy felt when she was supposedly hallucinating ( the institution ) wasn't conveyed enough, and I doubt it could have been. It was a beautiful and chilling episode, and all the bitching about it before you even see the episode is ridiculous.
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I've only posted here once or twice, due to the rampant spoilers and annoying complaining that tends to go on here, but I just had to say that Sub-par episode this is not. I obviously don't always agree with the majority of Buffy fans ( I loved 'Wrecked'... then again, I understood the writers perspective, whereas most only seem'd to have taken the episode at face value ), but this episode is definitely my third favorite of the season, with 'Bargaining Part One and Two', as well as 'Once More, With Feeling' ahead of it. Does it really matter if it's been done before? Original ideas don't make for great television... writing does, and 'Normal Again' had great writing in spades! It was largely disturbing ( especially the last thirty seconds... it should send chills down the spine of any 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' fan... I don't think it was meant to be taken too serious, but the idea of Buffy actually being a mental patient, having dreamed all of this up... well, it freaks me out as a fan of the series ), it was paced perfectly, it made you feel for Xander, it made you feel for Buffy, and it made you feel for Joyce. And to see Buffy go all psycho!!! It was just *sooo* painful and depressing to watch. The only flaw that I saw in this episode was that the realism Buffy felt when she was supposedly hallucinating ( the institution ) wasn't conveyed enough, and I doubt it could have been. It was a beautiful and chilling episode, and all the bitching about it before you even see the episode is ridiculous.
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The Styler is here. Listen up freedomofspeech. Do me a few favours. Firstly you will have the good grace to address me by my name as I am doing to you. Secondly, you will paraphrase me correctly for I never said Buffy was the best thing on TV. 24 is. Thirdly, could you show something akin to some class but not dragging this into a personal argument. I maintain that this season is not the strongest episode ever but once again, let us see where the season takes us. I for one realise that Buffy is not the same show as of two years ago. She isn't in high school anymore. I am not praising this season as it is entertaining but not much more but all I am asking for is restraint. People saying they want to eviscerate Marti Noxon and the usual mindless ranting is not healthy, it's bloody irritating. PS. Buffy has always recycled other shows ideas but has given them a fresh spin.
The Styler has spoken and now the people know. -
Mar 12, 2002 9:06:50 AM CST
Riley, Groo and the captain of "Firefly" are gay ideal himbos.
by rick mccallum
Jesus Christ this show cost a SHITLOAD of money for UPN!
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Mar 12, 2002 9:10:47 AM CST
You know at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if Buffy were
by prof. pop-cult
I'm not joking. Things this season are so out-there that I'm expecting to see Buffy in the final scene burst out to Willow, "I don't know how -- but...I'm PREGNANT!" Executive Producers Joss Whedon Marti Noxon! This season has played out mostly as bad fan-fiction. Hell, the supposed spoilers from the future by FutureGuy sounded much better. Wish I lived in his timeline.
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I've only posted here once or twice, due to the rampant spoilers posting and the annoying complaining that tends to go on here, but I just had to say that Sub-par episode this is not. I obviously don't always agree with the majority of Buffy fans ( I loved 'Wrecked'... then again, I understood the writers perspective, whereas most only seem'd to have taken the episode at face value ), but this episode is definitely my third favorite of the season, with 'Bargaining Part One and Two', as well as 'Once More, With Feeling' ahead of it. Does it really matter if it's been done before? Original ideas don't make for great television... writing does, and 'Normal Again' had great writing in spades! It was largely disturbing ( especially the last thirty seconds... it should send chills down the spine of any 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' fan... I don't think it was meant to be taken too serious, but the idea of Buffy actually being a mental patient, having dreamed all of this up... well, it freaks me out as a fan of the series ), it was paced perfectly, it made you feel for Xander, it made you feel for Buffy, and it made you feel for Joyce. And to see Buffy go all psycho!!! It was just *sooo* painful and depressing to watch. The only flaw that I saw in this episode was that the realism Buffy felt when she was supposedly hallucinating ( the institution ) wasn't conveyed enough, and I doubt it could have been. It was a beautiful and chilling episode, and all the bitching about it before you even see the episode is ridiculous.
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It was actually a pretty cool episode, but I was hoping at one point they'd pull a Xena/Hercules moment where Buffy thinks she's a hollywood actress playing a roll and that she's dating a sub-B grade movie star, and... nah. It would never fly. To the poster that said this season was about jumping the shark in every episode. THAT"S GREAT!!!! Looking back upon season six has given me an enlightened sense of hope. The resurrection (sp?). A musical episode. An episode with amnesia. An after school special. A return of the old boyfriend episode. The wedding episode. I'm trying to remember more shows, but it has been a pretty forgetful season. They all sound like the most clich
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Where I live, we don't get UPN, and there's about 7 or 8 of us here that would like to see Buffy and Roswell. I was wondering if there is anyone out there who would be willing to send me copies of this season if I sent you some VHS tapes. I've tried downloading a few from the beginning of the season, but it takes forever and I can't find all of the eps!
Thanks! -
What, like you've got a monopoly on what makes interesting viewing? I'm a sycophant because I like the fact this show is still pushing the envelope, not going backwards ( a la Angel) and still creating huge debate? Heck, you'll be telling me I'm delusional about the merits of having a good fuck next. Critisism doesn't bother me. People rolling out the old 'apologist' routine and presuming to tell me my own opinion does. Jackass.
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See my post about the whole season being a dream. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Particularly with the odd feel they have been giving us with the lurid sets and quirky pacing. I thought it may have been just the tapes I've been getting, but there is a hint of fuzziness to the outer edges of the screen of each ep. ANyone else notice this? The only thing that doesn't jibe is the effect on the Angelverse. AD out
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You seem to make sense. Your theory would explain why this season has felt almost hungover, I do not want to believe that it is because they are running out of ideas.
There has been a strange almost surreal quality to most of this season. The motives of Warren et al are askew and not really convincing. Willow has gotten powerful too quickly (IMO) and Buffy is certainly distant. Both Buffy and Spike seem to be out of character, and Xander and Anya just seems off aswell.
Perhaps the writers are leading us round in circles, giving us the show we do not want Buffy to be, and then saying 'It was all a dream'.
It is feasible that they are just showing the existence of these characters post-Buffy's death, a pontification on a possible future. Plenty of shows offer alternative futures and time-lines.
Next season we get the reality, that being the death of Dawn at the hands of the rift.
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With regards to the problem of the 'dream' affecting Angel, could there be a sinister force at work creating this dream? I suppose they could get round it that way, but I am unsure as to who or what would go out of the way to create such a nightmare. Although, if there are demons that make people burst into song, anything is possible I suppose.
What are your thoughts on how they would skirt the Angel-issue? -
I love this Season. i agree it's not as good as it usually is, but it's been filled to the brim with brilliance throughout. One of my favorite theories of what might happen at the season is that we find out Buffy *HASN'T* been revived from the dead, and she is, in fact, in Hell, like many have speculated already. The entire Season has been a form of torture for her. Of course, as has been mentioned 'Angel' complicates things. So what if, during the time that the portal to Glory's Hell Dimension, 'pain', 'anger', 'hate', etc, seeped out from that dimension into Sunnydale? It would explain why things haven't really been going all that well for anyone. Or maybe Buffy never actually died, but the Hell Dimension from Glory's Dimension spilled over into Sunnydale alone, and this is their torture? This explains how Buffy could see Angel ( and notice that they met in between LA and Sunnydale? Probably just enough distance so Angel isn't affected by the Hell Dimension, and Buffy doesn't notice anything different about being out of Sunnydale ). Of course, this is just speculation,a dn I hope that the demon in 'Wrecked' plays a part of it, but the whole idea is intriguing, that's for sure. And I really wish people would mark their spoilers! I now know two major things that I wish I never knew!
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Here is my theory -
What if this whole season has been based around two things - 1) Buffy came back 'wrong' and 2) the idea that there is "always a price to pay" for using too much magic.
I don't think this season has been a dream. I think Buffy isn't always the same Buffy that we know. When they brought her back they opened the gates to other dimensions. What if those gates haven't been closed? What if our Buffy is linked to ALL of the Buffy's from all of the various dimensions and alternate realities? As the season has gone on we've been witnessing Buffy cycle thru various 'versions' of herself. They are all Buffy, but with slight differneces. One is darker, one is less mature, one is actually in love with Spike. This could be a great explanation to everything thats been going on. She's been really out of character for alot of the season. What if it is one version of Buffy sleeping with Spike, then another version of Buffy waking up in the morning? How shocked would you be if you were her?
Willow and her 'addiction' to magic might not be the 'price' that everyone is thinking must be paid. What if that is just the Scoobies ignorant assesment of the situation? There has to be something tied to that demon in 'After Life'. If Buffy was in heaven, how could a demon hitch a ride out? What's he doing in heaven? And what about all the things it said? "You've got blood on your hands", etc... the picture with all the scoobies dead... What if there is a bigger price to pay? What if it needs to be paid before the dimensional gates will be closed? I think it has been implied that its a life-for-a-life deal. Willow brought Buffy back, so she'll have to loose Tara.
I like this as a theory, but I don't know if I actually believe it. I think if the 'multiple Buffy's' thing was being played out they would have done a better job at it. But who knows... maybe they're going for subtly. -
Sorry to ask this question, but I obviously have missed an episode (or 2?): Who/what is "the Fantastico"?
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The problem is Sunnydale has never been normal, so to assume that Glory's Hell seeped into the reality that is Sunnydale, and that it would make a difference might not work. The fact that she met Angel half way though certainly has resonance.
Perhaps they have brought Buffy in all her guises back from Hell, I certainly think she has been resurrected, the timeline may have got confused post-resurrection (?)
They could maybe link the multiple personalities of Buffy into her being a mental patient if they wanted to end on a deluded and gasp-inducing high.
I think that as far as Buffy in her most frequent guise is concerned, the Scoobs and their ignorance of her ongoing struggle for her own humanity is Hell. So maybe Buffy does still feel that she is in Hell and that is why she seems so odd, being unable to adjust. I think the show needs to realign itself with being Buffy-centric, Willow is a weak character this season and I think that although she may lose Tara (a life-for-a-life), she is not as important as some make out. Buffy's perception of reality is what will count, will she turn on the Scoobs, believing them to be some vile incarnation of her past life? And if Buffy does lose her humanity, then will she suddenly switch to the other personality that would feel remorse and suffer for the death and destruction she had caused? This may be far-fetched but I do not want to see this whole Willow going dark arch materialise, it would distract from the compelling problems Buffy faces. -
People! Do you realize there are more comments on this board than others and the EP HASN'T EVEN AIRED YET! Stop bashing the episode until it at least airs for all to see. Then if it's bad feel free to rant and whine and complain. Right now you're all acting like little Dawns!
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ok so i can't freakin' spell sorry. Why is everyone dissing Buffy?? I personally think that, yea this season is kinda odd and lackluster, but there must be a reason for it. I have no idea what's going on, or why the storyline is messed, all i know is that there is a reason for everything, especially in Buffy. If a show as brilliant as Buffy can keep up a precedance of awesome episodes for 5 years it can keep it up for another 2. Has it changed just because Buffy went over to UPN? no.
would it have been the same if it was still at the WB. yes. Joss had this season planned out last year. in other words people wake up and realise:
If your a fan of Buffy than have faith because it has never sucked before and it will not continue to suck forever.
Disclaimer: I don't think that this season is bad, yes not as good as past season's, but still better than most shows. I am a hardcore Buffy/Spike shipper so this season is great for me. sure the storylines of willow and Dawn make me wanna scream but hey, if i didn't have something to bitch about than i wouldn't be interested.
HS -
It ALL MAKES SENSE!! The Scoobs must pay for messing with the after life. And not just the four that pulled off the Buffy come back. Everyone that's close to her must give up their pain and suffering to pay to ferryman for bringing her back! Because everyone wanted her back. It's not just some demon hitching a ride back. It's everything to everyone. Dawn's loneliness and cleptomania. Xander's cold feet at the altar. Anya and... well... Xander's cold feet at the altar. Willow's addiction. Giles leaving. Spike's love slavishness that gets shut down. (It's better to have loved and lost... yadda, yadda, yadda if a crock of shit.) Hell. The two characters with the most pain and suffering are in the thick of it at this very moment. Buffy. With her feelings of loss, abandon, confusion, remorse, helplessness. And ANGEL! Who (as we all know) was Buffy's greatest love. And look what's happened to him! The demons of pain and suffering, sitting in their red room are FEASTING off of Sunnydale and it's peripherals. Or. Maybe it's all about life and growing up and maturing. And how that struggle is the greatest challenge.
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Mar 12, 2002 1:20:44 PM CST
By the way, folks, this is the last original episode to air unti
by electric_monk
Bring on more repeats
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Make sure in future posts that you put in a guide to hobbit activity on Buffy. I TiVo the show every week because I'm out at my weekly D&D club meeting (something that I can't miss and we've been meeting at this time since before Buffy was even created) but I'll miss it if there's gonna be hobbits on Buffy. I mean, think about it: HOBBITS ON BUFFY!!! How AWESOME would that be? I mean, that would fulfill a dream of mine to see hobbits actually ON BUFFY(the character, not the show... know what I mean?). To see her cuddle their little hobbit asses. That would be the best thing ever.
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Sounds similar to the episode of CHARMED when Piper is institutionalized, too. Will Angel be insitutionalized next? Max on DARK ANGEL? They're not all WB or UPN shows. They're not even all from the same studio. Sounds like Hollywood needs a shot in the arm.
SOMEONE SEND THEM PRINCESS X! Savior of the known TV Universe. Wordsmith! Critic! Faster than a speeding e-mail. Able to review a bad script/pilot episode in one sitting. She is the golden child. The weaver of words that Hollywood yearns for during these dark and endless days of rehashed concepts, pitches, scripts, and characters! Go get them, Princess X!
A faithful fan -
Willow and Tara's cat[/familiar?].
Seen more often last season, hence the Fantastico Watch now, especially given Willow trying to get off the crack, er, magic, and Tara gone [who got custody?] -
I disagree with those who think that the show has been gradually going downhill since Season 3; however, as some people pointed out last week, there has been a rather abrupt decline in the quality of writing since midseason, right about the time Willow and Amy were playing "Bewitched" at the Bronze. In addition to the problems with the story arc, there as been a dearth of the clever witticisms that used to evoke moments of laughter in the darkest episodes,and make the more mediocre episodes still worth repeated viewing. Perhaps Joss used to serve as script doctor, punching up the dialogue, and no longer has time to do so. The suddenness of this change in quality is more indicative of a change in personnell than mere writer burnout.
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That never occured to me. Everything on Angel has been really vauge. Willow showing up, the meeting with Buffy at the half way point, the whole way they him-hauled around the issue in Angels season premire. I think you're on to something. Know what the half way point between Sunnydale and LA probably is? The desert where Buffy met the First Slayer! There is something coming up with that yet this year, I wonder if it will tie in to the meeting w/ Angel?
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oi..I'm breaking my word, essentially because I can't let this happen to a beloved TalkBack and for the past few days I've been bipolar on PMS, so sue me! I'm probably going to download this ep if I can, or just go through the wildfeed summary if not. Either way, I'm seeing alot of blathering idiots who are themselves dreaming whilst a small handful of sensible people are getting shut out. This whole "it's all a dream" thing while a cliche, isn't a jump-the-shark cliche guys. It's always been a series finale cliche, there's a big difference: why jump the shark on the last episode? Hence, it ain't going to happen. As I've said before, alot of you simply can't face the fact that there's a chance Buffy could cross-over to the Dark Side for an extended period, or that there's always a rhyme and reason behind what Whedon does. Some people area actually starting to grasp this idea, but dammit! I gave you more formulated ideas on the exact same stuff A MONTH AND A HALF AGO! Read it and weep: http://www.geocities.com/one_thalya/lovestrife.html And for another thing, most of you are behaving EXACTLY like the nerds did in Life Serial whilst Jonothan's spell was going on, discussing where else the concept of a time loop appeared, where else, on ST:NG and XF. Not to mention that in that ep, it was definitely not coincidental that the topic of discussion in Willow's class was social vs. individual CONSTRUCTION OF REALITY (NO ONE remembers that? And you call yourself fans?). The whole "it was just a dream" is such a copout and you all know it doesn't jive with the "Oh Grow Up" theme (which I think might be more directed at some of the members here who crave high-school style Buffy). The whole Buffy/Willow showdown has been begged since Bargaining as well. Of all people, Willow perpetrated the worst evil on her, her best friend. Buffy grows up the moment she realizes Willow hasn't made her life a hell, she has. Remember that!
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Although not the best season ever I definetly don't believe Buffy has jumped the shark, even when its bad its better then most of the crap out there. if i do have a complaint is that all the charachters haven't had equal screen time and willows addiction. i cant wait for tonights ep. and remember herc gave Dead Things 2 1/2 stars originally and that was a great dark, dramatic episode, he just likes the comedy ones the best. and i just read that the director of this episode is rick rosenthal, can anyone confirm if this is the same one that did halloween 2 and the upcoming halloween:reserection?
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Everybody is missing the big clue which explains why this season is so strange. UPN
showed the final 2 episodes of season 5 and would not let FX show them during their initial run on that channel. I think this seson is still tied to Glory. If you watch the final episode again you will notice that when Willow tries to take her down Glory comments something like "Boy that took alot out of me." (Sorry I don't remember the actual quote). What if a bit of
Glory (who ,after all, was a god who inhabited a person's body) was in Willow? It would explain Willow"s actions Re: magic (particularly if Glory had not fully taken over. It's just a theory 'though like every other one. -
besides, i thought last week's episode was bloody amazing, even if it was depressing as hell in the end.
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You should move to Atlanta. Thanks to Ted Turner(tbs,tnt) and Hotlanta channel 10 I never have to worry about Buffy being pre-empted for sports. Lastly welcome back to ericalan69.
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The best part about the movie is that I finally got to see Riley die.
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Hot Pockets now have more filling! I'm coping to my hot pocket bet from when Herc first broke the news about the BSD. As much speculation indicates that Tara will bite it soon, my entrails will soon suffer for my hubris. If Tara is the BSD, then I have to eat 2 regular hot pockets and 2 lean pockets. More filling equals a bigger ulcer. Fuck
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This episode is really freaking me out. I think the part that got to me the most is Buffy turning on her friends.
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Though I do think the season, so far, hasn't been up to past ones. Tonight's episode was pretty cool. Not every episodes needs to be chock full of wittys. I have no idea where they're going with this, or if they'll ever refer to it again, but right now, it seems pretty major.
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It's a really dirty trick to leave it with either scenario being an equally possible reality - the one with Joyce still alive is actually more possible, the way they left it. Still, it made for a good episode. And I really thinking the BSD is a rumor meant solely to mess with fan's heads.
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Flawless episode. Powerhouse acting from Sarah, and what a serious mindfuck. A lot of people are interpreting the ending as a "it was all a dream" twist, but I interpreted it as simply the end of her illusions and detachment, I think Buffy is finally back. I think Sunnydale is all reality.
Because just think about it, if BTVS is all a dream, then that means Angel is all a dream as well, and we all know that's not going to happen. -
Though I've been avoiding all spoilers whenever possible, I still caught rumors about an impending Scooby death without know who it is or when it will happen. Towards the last part of this episode, as Buffy started resisting her Sunnydale "fantasy", I really started thinking that this might be the episode--that she might actually kill one of her friends. The fight in the basement added even more suspense--I honestly thought somebody was gonna get it and was quite relieved when no did. So, while I agree that the "it's-all-just-a-dream" plot device is a much-abused cliche, I found in this case it presented an actual threat to the "real world", and as a result, real drama.
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... the alternate reality business makes much more sense than 'it was all a dream'. Tonights episode cemented it for me. I'm convinced that what we're seeing is multiple realities, multiple Buffy's or something. It was just about said so in tonights episode. The doctor and Spike were both talking about alternate realities. Notice that they didn't say how the demon juice worked... just that it messed up Buffy. Not that is messed with her mind. My guess is the demon was pushing Buffy into the alternate dimension. I've got to watch it again... so much to take in... this season is definitley headed for a major twist. Can't wait. Oh, and by the way, Herc... you really should get your head checked - 4 1/2 stars.
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Tonights episode was great and pretty damn creepy. herc, i know everyone can have their own opinion but even though Buffy can be a hilarious show, its always been a drama at its core, and tonights ep had that in spades! SMG gave a great performance and i really thought after tara fell down those stairs that she was dead meat. im glad shes not. the new writer and director team did a really good job, hope to see more of their work in the future. when does the next ep air? i cant frickin' wait!!
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"Sub-par"??? This episode was so filled with sadness and passion I could have killed myself! And for all you pissing and moaning smart alecks who think this season has sucked: Take a deep breath, step back, get over the sound of your own voices, and THINK about this season. THINK about how well Joss can lead you by the collective nose; and THINK about where this season might just possibly be going. . . Can you dig it? Can you? In a half-dozen or so more episodes, you'll find out.
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this was so good, herc, you're one messed up person.
This was way different than all those other "it was all a dream/mental institution" things. It was so well done. Instead of the whole episode just being Buffy in a mental hospital, and then waking up at the end, which was what i expected, it was slow and more psychological. Buffy consciously chose to accept the hallucination, and then consciously accepted to get rid of it. Huge steps. And i agree with whoever said the end was just a sort of symbolism that she wont be as detached anymore. Since the beginning of the season she's been searching for a way out, but now she got it and gave it up. And it was NOT slow at all. It was incredibly fast paced compared to eps like "As You Were" or "Doublemeat Palace". And stuff was always happening in this one, and it wasnt all expected. Very psychological and good. One of the top 4 of this season. -A -
First off-good episode(you're very picky,Herc-plus some of us have not watched DS9)-liked that last shot where Buffy's catatonic in the clinic with the doctor saying "We lost her.",nice head game to play with us! For anyone who has doubts about "Is it all a dream"Dallas/Newhart/St.Elsewhere vibe,I say this-the main reason Buffy was tempted to give in to the aslyum reality was to not deal with her relationship with Spike;when did she dump the antidote? After Spike told her if she doesn't 'fess up to her friends about the two of them he will/what did she say to Dawn about why Sunnydale must not be real? "I'm sleeping a vampire I hate!"-not all the reasons Xander gave before about demons & monsters and the sister a glowing ball of energy,nope,just a brief mention of being the Chosen One and then Spike! Plus,major symbolism with locking everyone down in the basement(repression) and the Legion of Goons keeping Jonathan down below.
I've seen the spoilers on the Buffy Cross & Stake(which I give cred to-dead on target last year plus that site rules)and for everyone complaining about not getting an Evil Willow-chill out,she's coming and starting off by going medieval magic-style on Warren is a good start(hate that creep)! I hate to see Tara go but she's the Jenny Calendar of the past couple of seasons(no listing in main opening credits, pratictioner of good magic,troubled love affair with a Scoobie(yes,Giles is a Scoobie!)and a secret keeper)so she's all set to be the trigger for Willow's fall from grace. I,for one,am looking forward to what's next for Buffy & The Slayerfriends(plus,hoping Wes is okay!). -
Mar 12, 2002 9:58:46 PM CST
Just remember, if BTVS is an illusion, then Angel is an illusion
by duh5
Which is why I don't believe the last scene was intended to prove Buffy was hallucinating. Like I said earlier, I think she closed the door on those illusions and accepted her place on Earth, and is finished with detachment, I think Buffy is back. The only reason she had that last vision was because she hadn't taken the antidote. It would be downright silly to believe that two seperate shows with dozens of characters are just in the imagine of Buffy.
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Is Diego Gutierrez a real person or is that maybe a Joss psuedonym? Whomever wrote the episode deserves a round of applause. It was much better than most recent episodes and actually makes me optimistic for the final 5 of the season. I think Tara is going to be the BSD, we're all aware that she is not signed for next season but all of the other regulars are. I also think the Anya becoming evil rumors have some relevance, even if it's not full blown until next season.
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You whiney beetches suck! This season has been a great change of pace and another example of a great series going against the cookie cutter hollywood crap that is churned out by the truckload. And you freakin' malcontents were hating this episode before you even saw it. I thought it was well done and a clever twist to an old idea, plus it advanced the plot while doing it. If you hate the show so much, why don't you move back to Russia. I just hope Whedon doesn't listen to you all and recognizes that the silent non-dork fanboy majority are very happy with the cool direction he's taking this season.
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ok episode, the biggest problem is that i have to wait for ages to see the next damn one, will someone please kill the assholes who think it necisary to spread the damn season out and make us wait like plums! What i did like about this was we got to see just how detached Buffy is and we saw that the nerds are still around (if only briefly and only to justify the episode). What I didn't like was the lack of focus on Xanders heartbreak, but Nick Brendon's not that good an actor anyway. Things seem to be hotting up, i'm waiting...
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Mar 12, 2002 10:04:46 PM CST
a question.. this episode and it's corellation in restless.
by notspock
well for once you lot sound happy about a new episode.. that is a good thing..Now I never saw the episode (uk resident so I have to wait 7 weeks or something) but from what I've read.And I'm only posting it here 'cause Thalya's not doing her restless checklist right now... if this was to have been forshadowed in "restless",do you think it it would probably have been symbolised as buffy' false awakening after battling the first slayer?<
do you still care?
btw welcome back ea69!!
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well(after buffy) that would be the south park- "city on the edge of forever"
'cause it totally violated continuity.. it was all in the head of the busdriver, except there was no way it could have been... also 'cause it flashed back to earlier in the same episode.. AND GOT THE FLASHBACK WRONG!!!>and then we all had ice cream... -
Mar 12, 2002 10:19:09 PM CST
BLESS YOU LEOFF! Whatever deity or grand entity that you believe
by thalya
Just from seeing everyone's reactions to this episode, my faith is renewed utterly and now I really can't wait for Sunday to see this thing! But, judging from the Wildfeed, the written version is quite good itself. I loved how big a plot mover this was inside of a so-called ripoff ep. Now, people, I realize I've been quite bitchy before, so given that I haven't seen the episode and am going purely off what I've read, feel free to slam me for my mistakes (and I'm dying to see it played out now..there goes my Spring Break..pining for Buffy til it's over), as I'd do no less (I'm a masochist, aren't I? Any sadists out there? ;) ). But anyway, the ep wasn't just about Buffy coming back from being detached or anything, this was one of those ultimate eps defined by the title in which Buffy finally makes the decision between being a normal girl with a normal life and The Slayer. Restless note: The 1st Slayer had no Watcher. Buffy doesn't either.. Does this jive within the bounds of the ep-which-I-have-not-seen-yet?
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for the record, I'm entirely non-illusionist. I don't think it will all be a dream in the end, I don't think alternate realities will play into the end either, though they're alot more feasible given last season than dreams are. I'm a straight-up, what is, is, sort of gal. It's also funny to note that alot of TBers pre-ep were feeling the same things that Buffy went through, they wanted an escape hatch from a supposedly dreadful season just like her. But then I think the quality of the ep convinced them otherwise. I know I at least thought this, though I forget if I brought it up, but the lack of old-standard quality of the past several eps could have been a way to get the audience to react in such a way as it did, to get it feeling precisely what Buffy was feeling. I sense Whedonian cleverness possibly at work..
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I liked this episode. It seemed Buffy's version of Itchy, Scratchy and Pootchie where the creators actually seemed to address fann complaints on screen. The lack of a big bad, the lack of focus, the drifting apart of the scoobies, Buffy's dank depression. All the stuff people have been complaining about were brought up by the doctor.
As someone else said, it seems Herc likes the funny episodes because this one was pretty good. I liked how Buffy actually prefered a delusion over reality if it meant someone would take care of her, I liked how Spike called her on it, I liked seeing Buffy lash out on her friends, I lied how Buffy's Mom's speech snapped her out of her funk but not the way Mrs. Summers expected, I liked the idea of a reality without dawn :-) and mostly, I liked how at the very end it may not have been a delusion after all. The more I think about it, this was a great episode. -
Any sign of Fantastico?
Nope.
who the fuck is fantastico??? -
This had to be Herc's Riley, in terms of rating...
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I thought it was clear that Buffy was in an alternate dimension, the same place she went after she died. The reason she couldn't define it beyond 'heaven' was that she didn't remember the details. ///I'm beginning to think that in additon to "grow up" and "who am I?" this season also seems to be about appearances and perceptions. Willow thinks Tara has a new friend in her life because of a light kiss. Buffy thought she was in heaven, but she wasn't. The Scoobs thought she was in hell, but she wasn't. The Geeks don't seem like a threat and then they kill Kristina. A singing, dancing demon doesn't seem like a threat until people start burning. Doublemeat Palace was all about misdirection, we thought people were in the hamburgers but they weren't AND the burgers weren't really burgers.///Every main character - except for Dawn and Tara - has two faces and has shown the ability to betray another Scoob this season// I think the scenario for the BSD may play out as said but it appearances could be deceiving. We've only seen one instance of Tara and Buffy being alone together, when Buffy confessed her love for Spike. Why would they be together again? I think its Jonathan in disguise, trying to warn Buffy about Warren, who gets killed. The disguise may be needed so he could get out of jail.
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this is nothing new as an idea (having been suggested by several other people) but I think this season has been very intentionally lacking in "direction", the acting has not in my opinion been bad or the writing particularly unfunny, it's been more low key and in my opinion naturalistic than ever before.The actions taken by the characters are far more realistic(in a real world sense) than anything I can remember seeing on tv before, if you haven't noticed yet, real people ARE inconsistent, screw themselves up via addictions to sex,bad relationships, comfort and they give in to fear all the time. This is going to sound crazy but we are meant to hate seeing people we love going through this stuff.It is not meant to be entertainment,it just has to be watchable enough so we can see ourselves there/feel the pain and then show us a beneficial way out way out. There is an ethos producing buffy and it's apparently this- face reality and deal with it. for 5 years we've seen this pretty much exteriorized as manifest demon and kill it and this year it's got a new part, be honest/face reality- deal with it.
Like GILES/Joss says in restless "Everyone Willow has ever
met is in that audience, including
ALL OF US."< Now I am well aware that everything I have just said may be totally "wrong" but I'm not going to know if I'm right until I meet Joss whedon. He knows for sure.
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I have to agree with the direction of Thalya's last posts. Both the "all a dream" and the "alternate realities/dimensions" hypotheses are unecessary complications of the usually consistent internal logic of the Buffyverse. The intersplicing of Buffy's perceptions between the asylum and her reality were the direct result of the substance injected into her by the demon. Its psychological effects (or magic effects depending on one's POV)are manifested only in Buffy's own psyche and do not need to belong to any alternate reality or even a dreamscape. The final scene, misread by Herc I think, as a suggestion of actual delusion on Buffy's part, can simply be seen as the last "gasp" of the demon-induced delusion before she takes the antidote. It could also be read as indicating that Buffy doesn't really need the antidote, having resolved for now (as Thayla has also suggested)her internal, ongoing struggle between slayerhood and normality. This is also consistent with the very funny META-commentary delivered by Buffy's Psychiatrist as he explains her condition to Joyce: He gives a thumbnail sketch of the entire run of the show AND includes current Fan complaints about the direction of Season 6 by comparing the legion of doom unfavorably to earlier, meatier Big Bads from seasons past. Nice, very Whedolicious touch of simultaneous self-deprecation and whining fan bitch-slapping.
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that's the first time I have seen that idea used in talkback for any show... now I am very happy.
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The writing style felt similar. And it would kind of make sense with this episode: "Diego" is the alternate reality version of Josh.
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Lord was this one good. Herc, with all due respect and fear of sharp objects, I think you missed the point, and Thalya and Wicked Willow nailed it. OK maybe the dream stuff will not happen, and my idea of a reset is not looking likely based on the spoilers coming out now that they have begun work on the final 5 of the season. But all the issues were there as several have said: lack of Big Bad, creating a sister, it all coming unraveled. All addressed, and done extremely well. Good work all around. 5 week wait huh, GRR AHRRG indeed.-----later-----m
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You know what I liked about tonight's episode? I really felt something. At the end. For a change. I felt sad for Anya last week, but this sadness was more profound. The very idea, the possibility, that this entire show was in a poor traumatized girl's schitzo head...that Giles, Xander, Willow, Spike--they didn't really exist, weren't real...how tear-inducing is that? It meant there was no magic in the world. But whether it was real or not...it didn't matter. She decided to go back. Even if she was now perfectly sane in that world how much more wonderful to be a place where you have a purpose. Sure there is pain, but there are also the best friends one could imagine, wonderful people, adventure, the truest love... if the show does end up that it was all a fantasy (remember the last ep of "Roseanne"?) they'll have to scoop me up off the floor. But I wouldn't mind. Because what we Buffy-lovers have to admit...our deepest geekiest desires...is that the show could be true. Intellectually we know it's not, of course. Never could be. But it's hard to take that something we love SO MUCH isn't real. We talk about these characters here as if they were. So if the show ends up being a fantasy...it's a fantasy anyway. Oh...and since when was Buffy in a real asylum. The whole vampire slayer thing seemed to have come as a surprise to Joyce at the end of Becoming Part 2.
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I had shivers running up my arms and neck all through this episode. I feel for the broken Buffy that is wallowing to find her way back home and to sanity. And when her eyes well up so big with tears I just lose it. I feel that the matter of her being mentally ill was well portrayed. Kind of surprised that she wasn't more physically demonstrative in the scenes in the institution. She was pretty subdued. Anyway, by far one of my favorite eps this season, if not my most fav.
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Mar 13, 2002 12:48:19 AM CST
Am I the only one loving this season? Even without the HOTPANTS
by not gellar's ass
I've seen the monster of the week episodes, I've seen them face a god, I've seen the tragic love story, I've seen the fall from grace. THIS is new. And I'm loving every minute of it. "Buffy" isn't going to go on forever, but I'd feel really ripped off if it did end without first having a season like this. Kudos all around. However, some HOTPANTS wouldn't hurt.
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Notspock - liked your post about how the episodes this season were made to make us "angry, bored, and/or frustrated..." to really get us *IN* the show and have us *connect* with the characters who are all also feeling these things (while at the same time making us notice how *disconnected* everything has been this season.) A show this great doesn't *suddenly* have a terrible season of bad writing and directing. (BTW, I liked season 4!) This was all a game by our friend Joss to get the show *itself* become part of the theme. (Okay, that last sentence didn't make a whole lotta sense, but I liked your point [and the points of those who said this before you.] We'll look back at the end, amazed at the brilliance!... I hope?) ThaLYa, only YOU could make such great points without yet seeing the ep! ;-P I'm looking forward to reading your Restless references from this one! EA69! Welcome back... we missed ya! // mkl
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Buffy's consciousness jumped from the reality we know to the one in the mental institution. This might have been brought on by possible physical and mental unease she's been going through since returning from the dead. Maybe the finale will involve Warren trying to control parallel dimenons, then Rack takes over and becomes the Big Bad. After Buffy defeats him, Buffy has momentary access to jump completely into the mental institution reality. If she does so, a version of herself from either that reality or another one will take her place. So what happens? The "real" Buffy we've known for 6 seasons switches places and is reunited with her Joyce and her dad. The new Buffy has all the memories and experiences of the old, but doesn't know anything about what happened. Another difference with this Buffy is that she isn't so sullen -- however, she'll be darker. Either this is the Buffy that Buffy #1 creates through all of this parallel reality stuff when she kills Rack, or Dark Buffy is the one who kills Rack after the two switch places. Am I right, FutureGuy? I am, aren't I??!
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Yes, it seems we've seen this story many times before, not the least of which being the great comic writer Alan Moore's classic For The Superman Who Has Everything, where Superman *rips* himself out of his delusion of living on Krypton. VERY similar to this episode. However, the ending to the story tonight was AMBIGUOUS: read it however you choose. The portrayal of the mental hospital in the end was portrayed as objective information and not from any character's subjective POV. Buffy The Vampire Slayer could very well simply be the psychosis of schizophrenic girl in a mental hospital in L.A. If you choose to believe this, then like Buffy, you'll just have to ignore this fact in order to keep enjoying the show.
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Sub-par!?!?!?!?
I don't know Herc... I think you've lost interest in the Buffy and Angel series. --I'm still loving it this year and you have been giving so-so reviews all season (especially for Angel...and I think it's the best season so far!)
- You seem to have missed that a lot of what the characters in the "buffy-verse" were saying seemed to support the fact that the "buffy-verse" might all actually be in her head. (ex: Xander's discription of Buffy's life & Spikes explanation that Buffy likes the dark...or being sad...or whatever it was. Even the "real world" doctor explains Buffy's "death" from last season as her "awakening" and her second awakening being because she's forced to face herself because there is no "big-bad" this season). --- I thought this episode was VERY well done and one of my favorites!!!
--- Herc...maybe it's time to retire and pass the job over to someone who still finds enjoyment in the show! -
All season you've trashed the good episodes and hawked the crappy ones. Trumpeting "Doublemeat Palace"? And dissing this ep? And whatever one you went back and changed your rating on? It makes me realize I spend too much time trolling a geek site that's run by friggin' geeks. My bad. At least I know once and for all to invert your ratings to get a sense of the episode. This one *worked* and I thought the premise was going to be tired. But they made me *believe* it. And second, Buffy's Mom, from beyond the grave, gave her the life wake-up call she needed. What's cooler than that?
Herc, you must be 14 yrs. old. -
I have to say, it was a lot better than Herc said but I dont agree with people that say that this whole season is suppose to lack direction and be like it has been....Boring. All this at the expense of the audience?
I dont think so.
The storytelling has sucked and the characters have sucked. You can portray a lack of direction and the characters "Going through the Motions" in a better way that it has been.
Anyway, interesting episode for a change except for the nerds. They suck and I dont enjoy them being there at all. Am still not liking Dawn either.
Has anyone been noticing that Tara has been saving the day a lot lately???
I especially did like how the episode ended. Instead of Buffy just coming back, they cut back to Joyce.
Great ending not lets have a good rest of the season and pick up the pieces of the mess. -
One good episode -- number 17 out of 22 may I remind you -- and you people are ready to forgive and forget all that has come before!?! One good episode does not a season make. And building an entire season around a big Whoop-Dee-Doo Season Finale is a rather cheap trick too. If it was the intention of the writers to punish the audience, it has certainly worked. We've been punished, tortured, and beaten down so much we're now ready to forgive and embrace our torturers just for letting up. Next thing I know, you all will be saying this is the greatest season of Buffy EVER. Thank you, Sir, may I have another?
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I too was stuck by the similarities to "For the Superman Who Has Everything." (Just as Giles killing Ben reminded all of Moore's Miracleman.) And, hey, you big giant babies, I didn't give it half a star; I gave it two and a half. And if I don't like dramatic episodes, why did I give "The Body" and "The Gift" five stars? I swear I'd eliminate the "Buffy" ratings if I wasn't so sure you'd all moan about that as well.
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The assumption that Buffy came back wrong -- partly demonic -- maybe be close to the reality, only 180 degrees skewed...
She was in heaven. Maybe she brought back something alien to the Scoobyverse --
an Angelic presence?
Maybe she's "All wrong" because she's partly a creature of the Heaven dimensions. -
Jack Parsons, your post just reminded me of something I was saving until things slowed a little.. Some old speculation that seems all but abandoned from earlier in the season about Buffy coming back more angelic or whatnot.. Anyone else besides me still think she came back more Slayer-like (not all this new junk about alternate dimensions and whatnot, that's still a giant copout which is inelegant at that)? I mean, Willow did summon back "the Warrior of the People". Her whole relationship with Spike seems based on what she now is, and as WickedWillow so described, her big hangup (set for resolution in T-minus 5 episodes) is Spike and admitting things like her feelings to herself. Buffy's whole relationship with Spike this season has risen to the trappings of a theme, look at Afterlife and then the progression from thenceforth. And Buffy giving up all trappings of a normal life either by the end of the season or sometime next year doesn't seem so unlikely, and where to live? Why not where there's a welcome bed? /// And about that Restless Checklist, I'm being more clearheaded now and given that all of us have 5 Buffy and Angel free weeks ahead of us, if you need something Buffy-related to pass the time, why not type up your thoughts on the meanings inherent in Restless (and how we've seen things being played out in the storylines since the beginning of S5) and click my name to e-mail me? I'll put everything together and get it up on a web page that will grow as the season(s) do. And if anyone feels like going the extra mile and tackling a detailed summary (and I do mean detailed, all the juicy key pieces of dialogue if possible) of one of the four dreams, I would be very much obliged. Credit where credit's due, of course. I really think this would be great to see what we as a group can come up with.. and one last thing, if you're quoting dialogue in your analysis, try to be as certain of its accuracy as you can be, because the implicational difference between "These will not protect you" and "These will not save you" could be lightyears.. I will do some light editorial stuff like typos and grammar checks, be assured, but I just want you to get wordings and such right so your predictions can also be as accurate and valid as possible. I may have to dis-include stuff otherwise, depending how meaningful it is to what's being said overall. That being said, thanks!
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Michio Kaku will be a guest on Art Bell's radio show THIS THURSDAY NIGHT March 14th. This is the guy Fred was quoting during the Pylea Arc last season on "Angel" and where Team Whedon gets the idea for multiple demon dimentions. Tune in. Need to know which station in your area carries the show, go to artbell.com.-----later-----m
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Let's face it, the "it was all a dream" line is the worst cop out, used often when the writers just can't think of any way to end the story (though sometimes it has been used inventively by good writers). If the writers on Buffy ever resorted to this, I might have to suffocate them with Hot Pockets. Just deal with the fact that the show has changed in attitude (more growing up issues than teenage problem solving) and is doing so for a point, not try to say "the last two seasons have all been a dream" because you wish things would stay the same. If you do that, you're suffering from the same problem as Buffy and co.: clinging on to the past, when you should just deal and get on with things. *Oh, and Thalya, just to respond to your Angel TB. I don't think BB or me will scoff at your epee/foil/... suggestion. Heck, I'm a chick too, so the "being a woman, these are the only ones I can properly wield" thing will not cause me to smirk. Hey, it's the skill, not the size that matters (hint, hint, boys...)! Hey, our attack force is using crossbows rather than longbows for that reason as well (and because it's the bow type used on Buffy)!
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Over the last week re-viewed most of S6, and the first 8 are top notch but for the Halloween one, and the next 8 solid, with some excellent moments and a few mis-fires, mostly on the willow addiction angle. And now Normal Again, wow, ---- first it was great seeing Joyce --- second, great that they ended ambiguously ---- 3, anya's gone ---- 4, see how Tara arrived right at the PERFECT time to save everyone, and how Buffy says Willow ALWAYS comes through - is Buffy's mind always presenting a way out? How often do you save yourself from "death" when you dream, even in the most distorted ways? ---- the "explanation" of Dawn, being a need of Buffy's for family --- Dawn knows about Spike, unless she was too scared to notice --- her death as an "awakening", a happy, joyful place back with Joyce and her Dad until sucked back into Hell by her friends - is that a martyr complex tearing her back? ---- weird stuff is going on, and is just great, and SO MUCH better than having BIG BAD #6. This show is still wildly creative. The whole "buffy was in heaven" arc doesn't seem over, and may be twisted in new ways...
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I know that my comments will probably get lost in a torrent of anti-Buffy sentiment, but I feel the need to say this:
I never watched Buffy til a friend of mine turned me on to the first season DVD. I'm a big fan of fantasy/sci-fi, etc. But the show always looked kind of goofy to me (admittedly, I came to this conclusion without bothering to watch it. My own biggest pet peeve.) I watched the DVD's and got hooked. Then I started watching this season. While I haven't enjoyed any of the new shows nearly as much, I have to say that last night's was one of the best I've seen (including reruns on FX). I haven't seen the DS9 ep. that Herc sites, so perhaps that helps. But I found myself really wound up over the storyline and the total confusion over what is "real" to Buffy. The fact that the episode isn't neatly resolved with a villian of the week (ala Smallville- another good show, and with serious potential)but left hanging was ballsy. In New York, they didn't bother running the trailer for next weeks show. I guess they wanted to get the craptastic new "reality show" they premiered on the screen ASAP before people switched over to Smallville.
I thought the episode was terrific. Okay. Insult me now. -
And we now have 5-weeks to mull over all that has happened in Season 6. The best thing in this ep? After Buffy kills "waxy demon",Xander assuring her that the scoobs are okay...despite knowing full well what Buffy has done. That was terrific. Seeing the bond between the scoobs, again. I think I watch this show mostly due to that bond and when I saw how it wasn't as strong in this season as was in the past, it was disturbing me. Even though this is what people go through in real life, yes? I didn't want to see that here. Oh and good seeing Xander still able to kick some arse. I don't believe the ending meant that the "superhero" Buffyverse is meant to be the figment of someone's mind. I likened the mental ward as Buffy's mind - displaying all the chaos and conflicts behind closed doors. And when the door closed on the "weak" Buffy, she was finally shutting out the Buffy that has always wanted to be a "normal" girl, a "normal" 16-year old, and so on. And the Buffy who believed it would be all better if mom was back. But, alas, that was not to be. It seems the Slayer has accepted her position in the world. This ep has put most of this season back on track. It was a compelling one-hour, more than could be said for alot of this season. And once again, James Marsters out-acts just about everyone else in the ep.
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I've only read halfway down, but I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet...
Did none of you catch the fact that by the end of the episode we still have no idea if there was an actual "spell" or not? It's never confirmed or denied, which is interesting. Also of note: The writers provided an explanation for the supposed "dullness" of the season right in the episode! The Doctor treating Buffy asks her (paraphrasing): Why do you think your life seems so disjointed now? It's because your make believe world is falling apart. When you came out of your hallucination this summer (when she supposedly died. at least, in one version of reality) it was your friends that pulled you back in to your delusions."
THEN the Doc goes on to tell her: "You've fought world conquering demons and stopped the apocalypse. Now, your enemies are three pathetic boys. Your fantasy world is breaking down".
Did ANYONE notice this stuff??? -
I totally disagree with Herc. This episode kept me pinned to the TV. I don't know the DS9 episode, so maybe that's why I liked this episode--DS9 didn't get in my way. The story was complex and riveting. The core members of the Scooby gang were the only ones really involved and it worked. SMG was fantastic and the plot was equally as compelling. It has been a while since I watched BtVS and not refused to miss a second. Bravo Team Whedon.
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To paraphrase Norm MacDonald...this episode once again proves my theory that Herc's spoilers make episodes seem worse than they actually are. I love the way you guys come on here and bitch about episodes that have not even aired yet (there's too many whiney pre-"2002-03-11 20:59:59 posts). Buffy's ALWAYS been about taking sci-fi cliches and turning them on their heads. And LeeScoresby made a really good point. This episode's going to haunt us for the rest of our Buffy-watching lives.
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This is the Styler here. OK, I am now hoping for an amazing endrun of final episodes after this barnstormer. Come to think of it, Season 6 is a lot like Season 5, weak first two-thirds of season with two/three outstanding episodes and then sustained quality from The Body onwards. There are three reasons why this season is more hated. Lack of a big bad, Willow's drug addiction and Spuffy sex. I must say that I felt very uncomfortable during the last scenes of Smashed. However I maintain that Whedon will not let us down. I must say that this season has been stronger than the last EXCEPT for the lame addiction storyline. The Styler has spoken. Let the people know.
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last year, the whole idea of Dawn was a mind job. At buffy's S5 birthday, having Dawn give B a picture of them at the beach when they were younger, it was whacked, with everyone realizing it wasn't "real". that was one twist, and now they've twisted Dawn's existence again. It wasn't the monks who made her, maybe buffy herself made dawn, out of need in a hallucination. Maybe the whole introduction of Dawn and the "warping of reality" was a prelude to this hallucination episode. Poor dawn, keeps getting twisted around - and she's the one who keeps saying B didn't want to come back and wants to leave (like when she tried turning herself into the cops...)
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I agree with...everyone, it seems. Better than **1/2, if you ask me, although if I hear Dawn whine one more time about no one wanting her around, I'll scream. She's pretty much the only character without a purpose these days.
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I think for you to think that this season is intentionally bad is optimistic on your part.
It is possible that they have simply ran out of ideas and witty, punchy dialogue for the main characters.
I think you regard Whedon too highly. When you compare what he does to the writers on shows like The Sopranos, he is a nobody.
I think he has things planned, but this season is just underwhelming, and is maybe the calm before the storm. Maybe Whedon will finally resume full control and give the fans something special. I hope so, because this show has a great legacy and it would be good if it could end on an equal footing to eps like 'Becoming'. -
I mean REALLY WHEDON!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been a very faithful watcher of Buffy. Damn even my boss knows I don't work late on Buffy night. I don't tape the show and watch it later, I tape the show while watching it. And I have all the episodes since season 1 (plus a recently released Buffy season 1 DVD). That is how faithful I am. So my question is, IS THIS HOW YOU REPAY YOU LOYAL FAN??????
Yesterday was the same as other Tuesday for me. Leave early from work so I can hit the gym first and be at home by 8pm to watch Buffy. And for what??? Last night's episode was BAD!!!!!!!
Hmmmm let's see, could it be because SMG is planning to leave the show when her contact is up that you loss interest with Buffy? True, SMG is Buffy and without her the show is as good as dead (Think X-files and Mulder). If ever, at least give us something to remember about Buffy (not that the last season was pitiful) if and should you decide to dis-continue the show. -
I always found it helpful to try and mentally connect the four dreams, like in Figgis's 'Timecode'. Keep track of what happens when. If all four are superimposed simultaneously, there may well be deeper meanings brought forth. What is Xander doing while Buffy's talking to her mother in the wall? What is Giles doing while Willow is back in class showing the softer side of Sears redux? Also, I'm a little unsure of what Joyce's speech to Buffy in 'Normal Again' meant. I mean, I know if I were to be given the choice between a reality where everything is screwed up and I was miserable, depressed and unfocused, and a reality where everything has an easy answer and there was a simple solution for problems, I know which one I would believe was real. Occam's razor my ass. Spike (as usual) was right on the money. I was thinking that it might have made more sense for Joyce to tell Buffy that she should try and stay here because here is where everyone loves you and you don't need to suffer anymore. And Buffy would look at her and say 'Screw that. I'm going back to the misery.' How did what Joyce said allow Buffy the opportunity to intentionally choose to return to the Sunnydale reality? And did anyone else notice the continuity gaffe with the cigarette carton in Spike's grocery bag? And it was rather nice that the symbolism (Buffy and Warren keeping their problems locked in the basement) wasn't sexual for once.
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One thing that strikes me as odd, about the concept of the Buffyverse being in a poor insane girl's head. They try to pass off Dawn as someone Buffy created to have family around. But if she came up with Dawn, then isn't it possible she could have come up with a solution to keep mom around? I mean, if insane Buffy needed a family anchor in her Slayerverse, why come up with a death for mom at all? I liken this question to a Tetris problem my friend Jeff once mentioned to me. After playing Tetris for a while, it's not unusual to have Tetris dreams while you sleep. But what's funny is that even in the dreams, you (who are creating the images in your head) send the WRONG blocks that you can't use. WHY? It's your dream! Why not send down an endless suply of long straight blocks? It's infuriating! k. rant over.
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Now when Herc doesn't give a Buffy a good review, I know I will like it. Something major is brewing if Joss' head. Something genius, but I could be wrong. If it is just a made up world of a delusional girl, where does Angel stand??? Or mayeb it is just an alternate reality, both are real. Maybe the big death is Buffy in an alternate reality? But I think the big death will be Anya. Who the heck knows!? I can give myself a headache thinking about it all!
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Oh and I can't stand Dawn! She was good last season, but I can't stand her selfish "Noody loves me" whining!!
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For the same reason she made her father go AWOL and repressed the memory of being taken to an institution by her parents earlier; her subconscious (superego?) needed to rid her delusional life of anything that connected to reality. Her delusion had to be self-contained. Probably also explains why she never mentions Pike anymore.
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There was a Dark Horse Comics mini-series that tried to reconcile the movie with the TV show. Basically it took the movie's script, made Buffy a high school freshman, replaced Donald Sutherland with Richard Riehle, gave the vampires a TV series look, and inserted the scene from "Becoming" where Buffy learns she's the Slayer. What burns my noodle is how this is the FIRST time anyone mentioned Buffy going to a clinic. I'd have thought that Buffy or Joyce would have mentioned it in "Becoming, Part 2" after Joyce found out vampires were real. "Buffy, we went through this before!" or "Mom, the last time I tried to tell you, you put me in a looney bin!" I'd say that Joyce was just too polite to mention it in front of Spike, except Spike wasn't there the whole time. Also, if Buffy wigged out after the first time she saw a vampire, this wasn't apparent in the "Becoming" flashbacks. Of course the REAL reason no one ever mentioned it before was because the writers never thought of it until now.
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i haven't watched last night's ep cause i was working and am about to pass out. however, i did rewatch restless for the first time in a long while yesterday. somehow tara is a link between buffy and willow. obviously at the beginning of w's dream, w is afraid to leave the safety of t because she knows the real her will be shown. (obviously a potential predictor of dpw being caused by tara's "departure")tara then proceeds to guide her thru her dream. as she does for buffy. i dread accepting any spoilers at all concerning the bsd, because truthfully it could be anyone! tara is the popular choice, dark phoenix willow instigator, blah blah. however, her death would have to have some impact on buffy's future as well, and not just as willow's friend/arch enemy, whatever. also, there is no evidence of willow in buffy's dream either. xander is at least walking away...significant? or am i simply REALLY tired?
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Kitten board's going apeshit and now I'm gonna be honkin' depressed for the next damn month! FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK(repeat as necessary) Good thing I'm such a masochist.
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Buffy IS a mentalist, after Merrick was Killed she was locked up in her home town and IMAGINED her and her mum moving to sunnydale, and therefore the entire first epidoe onwards is a dream, in reallity Giles is Joyces's new boyfreind so when they both visit buffy the mental home he becomes part of her dillusion as a watcher cos she cant accept her mum has moved on from her dad. a few years into their relationship giles and joyce have dawn so when dawn is brought in to visit buffy dawn also become part of buffy's delussions. each big bad is warden or porter buffy is afraid of. and the scoobs dont exist (Shame about the angelverse proving this all wrong:( ) -
If I take as a given that Season 6 is all about "growing up," then I think I have to see "Normal Again" as the pivotal episode for at least Buffy's maturation. The psychological choice she has to make between the normal world and the Buffyverse is exactly the choice to "put away childish things." (neatly symbolized by having her parents anchor the world of her childhood). The adult Buffy has to choose the buffyverse of ambiguity and grey area which she has been moving toward all along. Even the lack of a Big Bad this season is indicative of this. The clearly defined good and evil of childhood is giving way to the recognition that evil and good are diffused throughout everyone...as we see each character struggle with their own angelic/demonic natures. Cur93 is right on track in pointing out that Spike is the one, as usual, who sees this all too clearly. He always has (going back to "The Lesson" and all his subsequent observations about Buffy and the Scoobies) and its appropriate because he himself is the embodiment of the diffusing of good and evil within a single character. Buffy's sexual escapades with him are also crucial to her achievement of adulthood. Her sexuality also becomes truly grown up...with its ambiguity, guilt, messiness, agression...and it strips away the susurrus of Romanticism (always an intellectual return to the womb and childhood)that characterized her relationships with Angel and Riley.
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Sorry...I got your name flipped in my last post...I guess I was thinking of the band :]
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Wow, what a great ep. I feel like I'm drunk, drunk on Buffyverse-love. So cool how they skewered themselves and this season through the doctor's evals. I had just re-watched The Body last week and was once again floored by the amazing writing and acting that the show USED to have. I've been a hearty defender of the show but after comparing "then" to "now" I was really about to jump on the Buffy's-lost-it bandwagon. This ep wasn't perfect but it saved me from making the leap. The only thing I would complain about is what someone's already mentioned, that in previous seasons, Joyce didn't say anything about the institution when she found out about Buffy's slayerhood.//ea69: thank the G word you've returned! I was afraid we would have to search for another Urn of Osiris to bring you back!! All hail the Warrior of Herc's People!//Spoiler alert: I'm so sad that nerraw eht dren may die. I, probably alone, will miss him.
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Man, did you give that episode 2 1/2 stars and complain about it just so that I could go into it with low expectations and be blown away? If so, it worked. The concept, though it's been used on other shows, was executed flawlessly, and I was in more ACTUAL SUSPENSE from this ep than from any in a long time. SMG and the other actors did a grand job of sucking me in, despite some admittedly weak dialogue. I don't know if this will end up being a throwaway ep or something of more sinister importance, but I can just picture the new dissections of the entire show's run that are bound to pop up online now.. I was ready for a lame episode, and got one of the best Buffy-centric eps in the last few seasons - you're a genius. Unless, of course, you were serious, in which case.. you're just wrong..
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This has to be the worst Buffy ep since the xander/anya"wedding". This is the exact story line from Charmed(Piper beginning brainwashed from the source). And then to end the episode like that in such an artsy contrived piece of crap Exsistez ways makes me wish Buffy stayed died.
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I especially loved watching SMG going all psycho on the rest of the gang. I said it before and I'll say it again. THEY SOULD MAKE BUFFY HERSELF THE BIG BAD.
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Herc, I'm not sure if you were responding to my post, but I know that you've said you've known the identity of the BSD for a long time. I was only speculating on why you were purposely not addressing the spoiler after the news appears to have finally leaked out. Perhaps your deal with your source doesn't let you. Perhaps the conventional wisdom is wrong about the BSD. Either way, I'm eager to hear your take, once you're allowed to speak.
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damn this was good... they should've made this "it's all an illusion" idea the BIG BAD this season...
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MKL2112: I'm not sure on Restless ideas for this, maybe they'll come when I get to seeing it.. or...*idea express just stopped in* Maybe it's the part in Buffy's dream where she's facing the 1st Slayer and then the Cheese Man and then the line "Now give me back my friends.." I'm iffy on it still, though. //// Mithril: actually I more kinda meant that you'd be groaning from the whole bad "broad sword" pun (I've never in my life known a pun to be good..maybe they're vampires..) //// Silver Joo: if that's the way you think, that they're just pulling stuff out of a hat for things to come on this show, then how the F*** do you explain RESTLESS?! Sorry, but I get that way when confronted by short-sighted ignorance. //// 93curr: That's a really good idea, with the superimposing. I've wondered on it, but haven't really had the technology, time or energy for it.. Have you found anything with it? I'd do you up a nice page or section on the R Checklist if you felt like it. And on the note of the Checklist, I think I might as well just do up the detailed synopsis, just for continuity's sake between each, but please, everyone email me your interpretations and whatnot! I'm reminding everyone now because I won't be able to until 5 weeks from now (unless Herc actually posts spoilers..).
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"This has to be the worst Buffy ep since the xander/anya"wedding". "
Ha! That's pretty funny. Actually, it's the ONLY Buffy ep since the "wedding." So, even though I loved it, I have to agree it's the worst since then.
And maybe it was just like Charmed, but I've only watched Charmed a couple times, so that doesn't bother me.
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Maybe this season is supposed to be a little "off" after all, Buffy is a little off herself. Spike said she came back "wrong" or whatever...
No idea where this would lead in particular, but it seems to me that Spike has been the voice of reason (reality?) so far this season...
Dunno... -
I think Herc is just plain wrong about this one, as are those of you who are complaining about the "It's all a dream" clich
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It seems to me that very few people actually payed attention to this episode. If you had you would have realized that the writers know that this season appears to be weak, it is mentioned when the doctor is talking to Buffy during her hallucination. He tells her that her world is falling apart and is not what it once was and also that her friends are not as comforting as they used to be. He also mentions that usually she faces bigger than life evil monstors and hell gods but now she is just facing "three pathetic men that like to play with toys" that she used to go to school with. How could everybody have missed all that? Also, there was really no mention of where Buffy was when she died, it was just the hallucination feeding itself to make Buffy doubt herself and her reality. Everytime things were getting difficult in this episode, when her friends were fighting or confronting her, she retreated into the delusion. It was her moms words at the end that gave her the strength she needed to want to fight the poison, "your father and I will always be with you...you have a world of strength in your heart..." and the last shot of Buffy in the asylum is not suggesting that it was all a dream, it is proof that Buffy was fighting the poison and taking back control of her life. Thats how it all played out for me, I just find it odd that nobody else saw it.
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Like Thomas Covenant
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cos he's right
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I must apologize for my first post, I had only read half of the posts when I became nuts and posted myself. Then i went back and read the rest and realized that some of you actually did pay attention and I am not the only one who still has faith in this show. Thank you for proving that much to be wrong, but I do believe everything else I said. I also agree that Tara is way more important than we have been told so far. I just hope that they coninue with that and don't just kill her off, because then we will have to wait to hear the commentary on Restless to understand where Joss was originally going with all that. I mean Tara was originally supposed to be part Wood Sprite or something like that then they changed their minds, I still think there is more to her character than just Willows love interest.
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ANYA - "Buffy,wake up!" BUFFY - "I don't want to"...... Hookay, still digesting and disecting.
Cool ep. Maybe at the end of Season 7 Giles will be asked by the Council to contact a Slayer who's been institutionalised for the past 7 years whose name is Buffy Summers. Whatever, but I am getting a real sense of 'Wizard of Oz-ness' from the Buffyverse lately. I'm loving this stuff. Viva Mutant Enemy!!! -
I was re-watching Season 4 a while back and when Willow first meets Tara and asks her how long she's been doing magic, Tara says something like "oh, forever" then it's like she catches herself and ammends her reply to " well, since I was young". This could be innocently innocuous, or just a Wheedon device to at that time create some mystery around her character. But the ep "Family" wrapped it up all to conveniently for my liking without actually exploring Tara much further.( This is the one ep of BtvS I can't stand either for the cop out feel I get). But yeah, Tara still feels unresolved, why was she chosen as the voice of the 1st Slayer in Restless( and not maybe Angel or someone more relevant to Buffy)?. And WHY WHY WHY is she the ONLY character in the show who has NO FLAWS?? (all respect to Amber Benson, but this may be why I don't like Tara) hmmmm... I do hope there's something major revealed about Tara. She's so normal it's abnormal.
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Me and the voices in my head have some issues with last nights epi. Not with the overall, I did find it interesting overall and this gives me concrete evidence that Herc may not be as good at reviewing as we thought (sorry, you lose God status). First off, I've got issues with WILLOW! Ok, last night was a PERFECT example of a girl whose priporties are officially WACKED! Her friend, Xander, is about to die and Willow does...nothing, she lies on the floor like a fish. USE YOUR MAGIC YOU WASTE OF SPACE!! I mean, what good is Willow now? Really? At least Xander has a build to fight, what does Willow bring? Computer use? Either use the magic nerdgirl or GET OFF THE TRAIN! I feel for Dawn, the poor girl is having a VERY bad stretch of life. I feel for Dawn a helluva lot more than I feel for "poor Buffy". And last but not least, I'd just like to say that if they pull that 'it was all a dream' bs that I will go outside and KILL ONE PERSON FOR EVERY EPISODE WITH A PAINTBRUSH! I can't have the fact that I wasted almost a DAY of life to watch 23 episodes and then get told they never happened...we'll just be ignoring them. WHAT??? THEN GIVE ME MY LIFE BACK!!! Dream seasons are the signs that the writers work for Satan. Ok, that's all I've got for now.
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This season has been a great change of pace!!! You can't do monster-of -the week and big bads all the time..."Normal Again" was what I call an "A" episode...like "Once More..","Tabula Rasa" ,"Smashed","Gone","Dead Things" ,and "As you were"...and you know "Double Meat" palace was'nt brilliant, but it was entertaining....and that has always been my bottom line! Id rather have interesting conflict over predictable happiness ,anyday ...
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Called all friends who have watched every one of the episodes for years and they all liked it and thought it was trippy. We disagree with the rating by Ain't. Buffy has been catatonic before and this is in sync with it. Could Buffy be talking insane in the institution at night with others while tied up ? This would be similar to the tied up insanos in the mental hospital last year. Is she babbling to fellow patients that are piecing it the story together on the other side. Is there an Angel that has been pulled away from her there ?
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Ats is so much better than Btvs.(o.k.) IMHO the BSD will be B or X or W or A or T Or D or S. Maybe even the LOND. ME is really keepin' me guessin'. Maybe I should try to contact TPTB myself to get my answers. TTYL
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Didn't anybody else think it was odd that they went out of their way to stress that Spike had a huge bag of groceries? (Not just smokes.)He's a vampire! (OK I know he likes Weetabix or whatever sometimes,but this bag was huge.) This was right after they talked about Anya being gone - I think they were hinting that Anya is already staying at Spike's, and that his supposed ignorance of the outcome of the wedding - also odd since it was days ago - was feigned.
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...for bringing up the most sensible theory for the Willow magic arc I've heard all season. He (or she's) right--dramatically, a Dark Willow as Big Bad would bring the same problem that Glory brought to last season. If you have a villain that is exponentially stronger than the heroes, how can you maintain a season (or half season, even) of conflict without resorting to gimmicky reasons why the Big Bad just doesn't kill everyone, already. However, unlike Alferdog, I don't believe that Mutant Enemy decided to scrap the addiction arc because they realized it was lame. It was a necessary element to pace the Willow arc over 22 episodes. (And checks had to be placed in Will's power even if the addiction storyline didn't happen, anyway--she was becoming so powerful that Buffy wouldn't have been necessary.) I'm trying to avoid spoilers for the remainder of the season, but it's pretty obvious by now that Willow will fall off the wagon before season's end. If ME does go with the Dark Willow idea, though, I hope they do so knowing that a great number of fans (like myself) will be upset over the loss of the "old Willow". I dunno about anyone else, but it was EXTREMELY disturbing to see Willow be an asshole in "Wrecked". It's like what Joss said in the Season 1 DVD commentary--WILLOW is the character most fans have an unabiding affection for among all the regulars. Many of us feel very protective of the character. And while it's the cool comic-bookish thing to go Dark these days, it's going to be a hard thing to see little, sweet Willow go evil. I hope Whedon, Noxon et al. realize that if they go down this path, it's going to have to be done in a way that won't scream cop-out. It's going to have to be all or nothing. And it's going to disturb a lot of us when it goes down. About "Normal"--I don't expect the alternate dimension idea to play a role for the remainder of the season's storyline. So you haters ready to dump on the prospect of "it was all a dream" will just have to sit tight. "Normal" in terms of plot is a standalone, but it advances this season's *characterization* arc. Get it? And this episode--with the doctor's metatextual comments on the season's arc--should make it clear that the good folks over at Mutant Enemy KNOW that they are deliberately breaking the formula this season. Those who think they are responding to FAN COMPLAINTS should definitely get over themselves. Now, whether it's been a successful break from formula is subject to debate. Granted, things have been more soap opera-y than superhero-y this season, and hey, I can see how some people may see that as...off-canon. Personally, I'd value a flawed season that dared to shake things up a little over an uninspired Big Bad arc that hit all the marks we'd expect to see (Glory).
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and humbly apologize to you all. I didn't realize that it would be such a controversy, and enrage so many people (killing people w/ a paintbrush?!?) I've been reviewing different methods of shark jumping, and so much fit. I previously forgot to mention Ted McGinley, the patron saint of shark jumping (or the Fourth Horseman), if he shows up in an ep..whoooboy! I seriously feel that ME has been playing w/ these cliches and giving them their own spin. If you go down then list, not much is missing. Death (Buffy), puberty (Dawn), singing (OMWF), birth (I'm going with B's resurrection), impending nuptials (X/A), 'They finally did it!' (B/S), Special Guest Star (first Sweet or Riley or Joyce), a very special episode (Wrecked), change of hairstyle (B), someone leaves the show (Giles), different actor for the same character (technically, Mr Harris was portrayed by another actor in Restless... OK, I'm reaching), and the return of a familiar face (Amy, Riley and Joyce). A few are a stretch, but this ep is probably the dream ep from what everyone is describing (FedEx delivers it tomorrow). And yes, Thalya, the 'it was all a dream' eps are signs of sharks being jumped. AD out
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i actually really like this season. but i have to say this episode didn't work. it would have worked had the ending been that the demon world was real but it suggested teh other. That's fine too if this was the Series FINale. but now it's given too much away if in reality buffy was insane. Leaving it up in the air like that in the end i think lacks certain balls to make a decision as to what the reality is.
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One of the biggest problems with this season is the lack of a watcher, or in particular Giles. I don't think it can be underestimated the impact his character had, strong, smart, and guiding.
One of the main reasons these episodes seem to have the wheels falling of them, is because there is no axle to hold them on!
Giles is sorely missed, besides just bouncing ideas of the guy, he pointed out where they should be headed. Do you think Giles would have allowed Xander to run away from his wedding, or get nailed by Buffy and trapped in the basement with the rest of the gang?
For me since he walked away to do his own series (whenever that happens if ever) Buffy has been heading steadily over the cliff.
Can it be saved? Sure, but it will never be the same without a watcher. -
What the hell was I thinking??? Rewatched Normal Again last night and the Joyce conversation w/ Buffy makes perfect sense, particularly in contrast to what Spike said. No idea why I didn't get it the first time. In other news, got the Lost And Found one-shot from Dark Horse. Good Lord! This may be the single worst thing I have ever purchased in my entire life. Embarrassed to have it in the collection. I had pretty much ignored the Buffy and Angel comic books in the past, having assumed that they weren't much different from the paperbacks, but was getting impatient waiting for the new Cerebus and Acme Novelty Library, and Whedon started writing the Angels, and Espension started writing some Buffy's (not this one) so I weakened. But this!! A demon is feeding off the scoobies anguish at Buffy's death, so they defeat it by thinking of all the happy things that happened in her life, and it fades out screaming as the love they feel for her washes over them. I almost puked. Plus, Buffy's headstone is in the middle of a graveyard! And Willow and Tara have a painting of a unicorn -no, really, a bloody UNICORN!!- on their wall. Does anyone involved in this crap even watch the show?
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Episode 617 seems to polarizing the viewers more than ever. I for one loved it. For me the reality is that Buffy is in a mental institution. (The fact that the demon attacked her and she woke from her trance alive and leaning against a car, instead of dead, is just one of many reasons I believe this.) So, if you look at it in this light then the episode was in danger of being one of those "I woke up and it was all just a dream," stories. But it was saved by great acting and a clever script. Were the writers trying to remind us that it's just a TV show and this isn't real? Perhaps, but there was so much more. For Buffy, living in her make believe world of vampires, demons and less than ever comforting friends is her chosen reality. As long as she believes it's real then it is for her. I pitched this story to my wife last year as the episode of Buffy that I would write to finish off the series. However, I'm glad that those in control have introduced the whole concept well before the end of the series. It will make me look at the show in a whole new light and might prepare us for the day they wrap this whole fun trip up. This episode goes into my top five list at number one. Thanks to the people behind BtVS, you've really made some of us think.
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Well, it's not the first time we've seen Spike carting grocery bags around. Yeah, sure he's a vampire, but he can't bite people so he has to get his blood from a butcher, presumably. Also, ever notice how he always has booze in his crypt? He must be making stops at the liquor store. Between smokes, booze and blood, that's more than enough to explain the fullness of that bag without jumping to conclusions about Anya staying at his place. Besides, if Anya were staying in Spike's crypt,and he wanted to keep it a secret, would he have ASKED Buffy how the wedding went, just for the sake of throwing her off the trail (especially when she would have no reason to suspect such a thing)? And do you really think he would have suggested taking Buffy to said crypt when she started tweaking in the graveyard if An was hiding out there?
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I have no idea if this ripped off DS9 or not, I never watched that show and could care less. This episode was excellent. It showed Buffy finally cracking under the enormous pressure she has been under. Escaping into a fantasy world where her troubles dissapear because they are not real. The doctor summed up everything perfectly when he said "it's all falling apart, isn't it? I'ts no longer safe." I don't think she actually IS in an institution. That last shot, I think, was meant to convey that Buffy is going to finally try to pull herself together and stop feeling sorry for herself.
Still, it looks like the group is about to shatter. -
First time poster here. Longtime Buffy fanatic. For me part of the Buffy formula is her denial and acceptance of being the Slayer.
This goes all the way back to the first ep with her refusal of the call of the hero. Every now and then she needs another push. The episodes where she denies who she is are very uncomfortable for me to watch. I recall "Anne" - Hell, Buffy ran away from being the slayer, yet in the end, she accepted herself- order again restored to the universe and we have our hero again. "Normal Again" almost hurt to watch.
But it left our hero to be normal again. This ep was not about what's reality/what isn't. It was Buffy again having to look at who she really is and making the choice to live that life. If the psycho girl in a mental institution was living the true reality, why would this little girl make up this world in her head where she ran away from numerous times. They mentioned her coming back to that(nonslayer) reality when she was dead, and the fact that her present days no longer have the great villains as in the past.
By why would a sick girl make up a character that had so many growing pains and then have her single mother die when in (so called)reality her parents are together?
This was a one shot ep. A very well executed play on the denial/acceptance of the self.But we have our hero normal again.
More bad things are coming but I bet they won't be anything she causes. Maybe something she has already caused. I'm into it more than I was in season 5 and I trust Mutant Enemy not to let me down. -
If this all was a dream, which I do not believe, wouldn't that make the entire Angel spinoff a dream too? This was a good episode, bottom line, and I think it was an important episode in the season. But the consensus view about the impact that this ep will have on the rest of the show I feel maybe wrong.
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You know, the different versions of this story have been brought up: Deep Space Nine, Charmed, various comic books, and I'd like to add one more: The Twilight Zone episode with Dennis Weaver as the condemned man who realizes that he's in a dream, and is trying to convince everybody else the same thing (this was remade in The New Twilight Zone with Peter Coyote. But they all play on the notion of *solipsism*, the idea that nothing really exists past DeCartes "I think therefore I am." The only thing that you know for sure is that YOU exist, and EVERYTHING else is a product of your consciousness. ("This could actually be the true nature of reality," I think to myself as I type this. "None of you actually exist and everything is extention of me." Of course from your perspective, I don't really exist, I'm simply a facet of YOUR consciousness. Perhaps I'm just YOU telling YOU the true nature of your own existence. (Don't pop a gear, I'm only kidding.)) But on the other hand, the episode itself seems to suggest that one reality it true, but the identity as to the true one is beautifully and challengingly ambiguous. The poster who said that this will "haunt us for the rest of our Buffy watching career" was spot on. But rather than be outraged by this, I suggest that you all simply enjoy it as the writer's clever little trick.
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I take back my previous comment. Normal Again was *nothing* like The Weight of the World. This just goes to show that commenting on the wildfeed instead of waiting for the actual eppy
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I don't think that Normal Again is an apology as much as it is an explanation and ME saying "hang in their and have faith that we know what were doing and its all for a good reason. As for Giles being gone, I do believe that the watcher is missed but thats why I believe that Tara is so impotant now. Giles used to be the one to tell Willow she was using too much magic or that it was dangerous, etc... Now its Tara and she's become a center for Buffy, telling her that she is ok and that she did not come back wrong and its ok to feel how she feels. Thts why I feel Taras too important and if she does get killed I dont think she'll be "gone"
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I can't trust your opinion. You dissed "Double Meat Palace" which was full of wonderful metaphors and visual imagery and now you put down "Normal Again". I really enjoyed both episodes. Especially "Normal". It's audience participation - one does not want "Sunnydale" to be something dreamt up, but actually it is.
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Willow's doomed. The writers have put her in a place where the only way out is death or evil. I'm assuming this was a deliberate choice. There's nothing else they can do with her. By using the whole 12-Step analogy, they've made it impossible for her to use magic again without some brutal consequences. I'm not opposed to the idea of her being the Big Bad, but I think it would also be nice to see her take over for Giles as a sort of Watcher. It would put her in charge of Buffy and the group, which would be a new dynamic for them (this worked nicely when Wesley was put in charge of Angel). The absence of a Watcher-type has been the group's biggest problem this season. I also wouldn't rule out death. It's a logical thing to happen to her character and they could continue to employ Allyson Hannigan by bring Willow back in some other-wordly form next season, whether it be for good or evil. If any of the posted spoilers are true, then if Willow is evil and Tara dies, they're going to need to so something to give one of the Scoobies some additional powers. My vote is for Dawn. It's the only thing that would make her relevant to the show, and they've definitely been planting the seeds for it.
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I can
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Willow has a bit of Glory in her? Interesting notion, but I still Wil descending the path to the Dark Side on he own will be a more interesting story.**** I finally saw Normal Again with my friends the other day. We immediately rewound it and watched it again. It was an excellent ep! The two most significant moments both came from Joyce. "Listen to the Doctor, Buffy. What he's saying is important." was said to the audience as much as Buffy. And the discussion of her faith in Buffy and how strong she is, definitely is pointing to Buffy pulling her shit together. This ep was the 'it was all a dream' ep (if you hold to my shark theory). Very deftly done, suggesting her life as the slayer was a dream. To those questioning what is reality (for Buffy), the asylum was the illusion, without a doubt. Pain and anguish drove her deeper into the dream, love and compassion pulled her out of it.**** Just want to reiterate Dawn's significance for those who haven't heard it from me. She is still the Key. She doesn't open anything anymore, but I bet she can close it. Dawn will be the means by which Buffy seals our world from the demon dimensions in the franchise finale. I'll wager 2 hotpockets and a leanpocket on it! AD out
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Mar 16, 2002 4:21:23 PM CST
Damn...why does all the intelligent stuff have to come when TB i
by thalya
And I still have yet to see the episode.. AD, that's the best theory I've seen yet and it makes perfect sense. I don't think you'll need to buy Hotpockets, that's for sure. An addendum to that though, Dawn will do that, and it will directly involve the Hellmouth (can't forget about that!). Luluca, going by what you've said, not only is Spike showing signs of selflessness in NA, but in Hell's Bells too; it was sweet of him to be glad for Buffy's happiness. Plus, with that whole "Evil.." line, he's never going back to the dark side.. As for those late-breaking rumors surrounding him, 1) doesn't it half-sound like a Shaft movie? 2) Anyone think while he's there (of all places) he'll find/experience something related to the 1st Slayer? And such timing! He'd probably be back in time for ep 22, just when we're waiting for the big Buffy/Willow showdown. If we're wanting Pure Slayer...
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First time poster so be gentle with me. Lots of people have been discussing restless alot and i decided to reaquaint myself with the episode by looking at the dream descriptions on buffyguide. There are two bits in Xanders dream which have got me very confused. He is in his basement and someone knocks the door. He shouts up "I didnt order any vampires". Later in the dream Spike is on the swing in the daylight. The only thing that i can come up with is that Xander will have a key role in Spikes redemption (bringing him into the light as it were)eventhough he may not want to help Spike. The problem is my head hurts from thinking about this. I think I have fairly good explanations for the rest of the dreams except this little bit. Im off to have a stiff drink!
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Is it just me or would anyone else like to see more of team Xander and Spike. I've been catching some of the reruns of Buffy and I can't get enough of the love/hate relationship between these guy. The constant bickering and antic as as they rag on each other. Like when Spike was living in the basement. I was reminded of this when they were tracking the demon in Normal Again. I'd like to see these guys over come thier differences. Besides with no Riley, Giles, or Oz Xander needs some testosterone to hang out with. Plus would anyone else like to see Xander become less of a punching bag? Come on, you've got Buffy/Faith=Slayers, Willow/Tara=witches
Giles/Wesley=super smart know how to use magic
Cordielia=half demon oracle for the powers that be
Spke/Angel=vampires
Oz=werewolf
Dawn=magic key
Riley=geniticly enhanced super soldier
Fred=genius
Gunn=kicks more ass in one ep than Xander in a season
Anya=past/present? vengence demon
Come on Joss throw Xander a bone buddy. -
Every scenario (speculation or spoiler) I've seen for the season's end seems to deal with some kind of sacrifice, either from Anya, Spike or Jonathan, but I haven't heard anything about Buffy's actions. In (almost) every season finale so far, we've had some kind of sacrifice from B herself. In season one, the slayer dies and the master rises. Okay, no subtext there. 100% by-product-free text. Second season, she kills Angel AFTER he turns good (as per Whistler's point -'you think you have nothing left to lose?') and leaves Sunnydale. Season three, well this is where the theory falls a little flat. I could argue that she sacrificed something by trying to kill Faith. Or by admitting (post-class protector award) that everyone knew her little secret. Other than that I'm not sure. Fourth season: sacrificing her individuality. To kill a monster made up of various people, she had to become (channel?) a monster (?) made up of various people. Season five: back to the text. So why is no one coming up with any ideas as to what happens to Buffy five episodes hence (think Oz would give me bonus points for use of the word 'hence'?) Does she have anything left to sacrifice? Her pure unsullied love for William? (Ha!) Her sisterly concern for Dawn (Ha!x2) How about giving up her addiction to misery? Any thoughts? No, really, I'm not kidding. It's been a slow day and I'm really bored.
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Okay, so how's this for a possible season finale?: Eveything's gone to hell. Tara's dead, Willow's evil, Anya and Xander are broken up (and I can certainly imagine a scene where Xander misinterprets Spike getting the chip out and tries to dust him), Dawn's a vamp (maybe), Buffy DID come back wrong (after all, Tara was basing her explanation on the assumption that Willow was telling her the truth), and everything can be corrected by a magickal reset button but Buffy (going along with the theme this season of accepting responsibility and consequences) decides NOT to use it. ME tend to go with the simple rather than the complicated (at least when it comes to plot, rather than characterizations). There's not a cliffhanger, per se, but we do enter into season seven with things screwed up. This would allow for a certain interpretation of sacrifice on Buffy's part. Remember, in Forever (another episode written by M. Noxon) Buffy was willing to accept Joyce's resurrection as a zombie, and it was Dawn's decision to tear up the photo that 'saved the day', so to speak. Having Buffy accept her 'wrongness', and the 'wrongness' of everything that's happened since her resurrection (including an evil Willow and (maybe) Dawn would indicate a level of maturity she hasn't displayed yet. Questions? Comments?
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I am about to see Normal Again tonight (it hasn't aired here in Australia yet). Ah, Buffy's sacrifice - the mind boggles. If Buffy were to use the magikal reset button she would be sacrifing the knowledge of herself and others. Also with the knowledge that she might not be able to change the inevitable anyway. This in turn could be her reason not to use the reset button. (Why go through all that pain again?). Without retaining the knowledge of Series 6 no doubt everyone will be doomed to repeat the same mistakes - it's human nature. Another point is how far would a magical reset button extend to? Where does it stop? Does it affect everyone in the universe? I can see why ME would keep to the simplest outcome - that Buffy doesn't use the button - this would complicate Angel because it is linked with Buffy (even if it is a show in its own right). ***One thing I have noticed about the characters on Angel is that they are more grown up than the Buffy characters. Look at Cordelia - she is way ahead of Buffy in terms of growing up and sacrifice. Buffy & Co still have a lot of growing to do.
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Okay, just in case anyone is out there listening: topic of the day is: what, exactly, was Dawn made for? I've been waiting for an explanation of this since 'Spiral'. At some point, presumably, there was a schism between the monks and the knights. Both wanted to discover the key, but the knights wanted to destroy it. Why the hell did the monks want to save the key? All we're told (by a VERY unreliable general) is that they wanted it for 'the power of light'. An awfully odd phrase. So, if Dawn no longer opens anything ('Bargaining' -again, an extremely unreliable source) what is she for? Not that I'm asking why she's on the show. What was the monks intention in keeping the key rather than destroying it? Why were the monks right and the knight wrong? And could Willow use Dawn to resurrect Tara?
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So I had a lot of time to think about this on the train to work this morning. If a magickal reset is offered to Buffy, what if she would have to go further back than her resurrection to fix herself? Like, back to the beginning of season five. For the life of me I can't think of an episode post-Dracula where she wasn't out of sorts. I can remember when 'The Replacement' first aired and I spent most of the episode wondering why Xander was acting like such an immature idiot. Like everyone else, I had fallen into the same incorrect assumption that Xander had. Maybe the same thing had taken place with Buffy. When Spike first revealed that he could hit her, my first thought was that Willow had screwed up the invocation and only the slayer half had returned, not the human half. But what if Tara was right, and the resurrection was flawless. Buffy came back the same as she was when she died. The disconnect had happened earlier, probably when Dawn was formed out of her. When she was first fully introduced ('The Real Me') we had Buffy relaxed, calmly training with Giles. I can't remember the speech verbatim, but I'm sure that it had something to do with controlling her focus, balancing her energies, and then Dawn knocks over the crystals and Buffy loses her balance. For pretty much the rest of season five she had emotional problems, we were just too wrapped up in everything that was going on to notice: Glory trying to kill everyone, Riley leaving her, Spike's obsession, Tara getting brainsucked, Joyce dying. This season nothing's happened (to Buffy) beyond boffing Spike and flipping burgers, so our attention's diverted. She felt disconnected enough back in season five to seek out the first slayer and ask if she was capable of love, Riley sensed her aloofness early and often, and when she first brought her mother and sister to Spike's crypt for protection I'm sure there was something about her saying she didn't feel right then. We were (I was?) so distracted by the possibility that Dawn's appearance was making Joyce ill that we (I?) didn't stop to consider that it might be affecting Buffy adversely. Certainly Dawn's constant whining and bitching all season long (especially in 'All The Way') could be explained by her lacking the adult part of her personality. Would also explain why Buffy needs her so badly (Spike's comment about how losing Dawn would devastate her at the end of 'Intervention') but is so willing to pass her off on others and ignore her ('All The Way' and 'Older And Far Away' and damn near every other episode this season). If it's not just the blood, but their personalities that are split it would also get around that pesky question that apparently no one but me has been asking as to whether or not Dawn has a soul. She does, but it's Buffy's. Buffy could get a reset, but getting herself back to normal would mean losing Dawn. Not that any of this would explain why Spike can hit her. Or deal with any of that 'Social Construction Of Reality' stuff from 'Life Serial'. But hey, no theory's perfect.
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I suspect you might be right about Buffy not being right since the beginning of Series 5. I can't help feeling that since Primeval (the episode before Restless) when the Scooby Gang invoked the demon of the First Slayer that there have been subtle changes to the characters. Each Scooby made up the components - Buffy was the strength, Xander was the heart, Willow was the spirit, and Giles the mind. What if these characteristics have been affected since then? There have been a lot of changes emotionally for the Scoobs. What are your ideas on this?
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Good point; you may well be right. It would be just like ME to have the origin of all their emotional problems be something that the scoobs did themselves, rather than it being due to an outside force. Problem is, how do you distinguish between this and the emotional changes normally incurred post-adolescence? Especially when you're still hanging out with the same people you knew back in high school. And what of Dawn? Comparing her level of maturity to the scoobs (Cordy, even) back in season one doesn't exactly make me swell with admiration. If I can't blame that on a personality/soul-split, then what purpose does she serve on the show this year?
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Oops, sorry. Your scenario doesn't take into account the beach scene at the beginning of 'Buffy vs. Dracula', you know, right before 'he-who-takes-himself-too-seriously' shows up. That's the last moment I can think of where they're centered and balanced. We even had Willow's line about 'balanceing the elements' before ths storm started.
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Anyone have any idea whether or not Will's gonna have minions? I mean, if Harmony can have 'em why can't Willow? And where can I pick up an application form? And seeing as how Giles is likely going to show up for 121 and 122, any chance that he'll be making explicit comparisons between her newfound evilness and his own experiences with youthful indiscretions regarding the Eyeghon demon? Seems like most of Willow's magick addiction/spells-to-get-high plotline was laid out by him in the first place back in season two. And if they are planning to move from evil!Willow to Willow-as-watcher (no spoilers, just my fevered imagination), then what of the transition cut from Buffy : "I miss Giles' to walking directly to Spike in 'After Life'?
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hello my first post. I wont give any away but if you want to read some updated spoilers go to www.tktv.net go to shows and btvs. I go there quite often and they have always been accurate they have spoilers up to the season final and they are more detailed then i have read any were else.
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Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you - Easter long weekend and all. I did get to read your message quickly and have since watched Restless, Buffy v Dracula and Real Me. ***Beginning with Buffy v Dracula - The beach scene at the start of the ep - all seemed well but was this the calm before the storm? (literally!) Willow changed the balance of elements... ***Even then there were subtle changes to some of the Scoobs. Giles is already questioning his usefulness as a watcher for Buffy and tells Willow that he is going to leave to return to England. Giles still has the same feelings in Season 6 when he actually does leave. Willow seems the same. In way way Xander loses his balance when made a butt monkey for Drac. Riley seems the same. Buffy actually gets quite motivated by the end of the ep due to Drac's visit - this seems positive until Dawn enters the scene. In the Real Me Dawn touches the crystals making Buffy fall and lose her balance. I'm waffling a bit here - sometimes it helps to just list things down. ***After watching these three episodes I'm still not actually sure when it started or where a magikal reset button would help. What I do notice is how each of the main scoobs have stuffed up in some way this year. Buffy - her relationship with Spike. Willow - her betrayal of Tara and her magic addiction. Xander - letting his fears of failure overrun his desire to marry Anya, leaving her at the altar. And yes Giles as well for deserting the gang - what does he have to clean up or face when he comes back at the end of this season? In some way they have all had a hand in the trouble that's to come and having to deal with the consequences of it. The four parts of them have made a whole big mess!
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For some reason this was posted near the top of TB - so I've copied it here and hope that it prints at the bottom... *Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you - Easter long weekend and all. I did get to read your message quickly and have since watched Restless, Buffy v Dracula and Real Me. ***Beginning with Buffy v Dracula - The beach scene at the start of the ep - all seemed well but was this the calm before the storm? (literally!) Willow changed the balance of elements... ***Even then there were subtle changes to some of the Scoobs. Giles is already questioning his usefulness as a watcher for Buffy and tells Willow that he is going to leave to return to England. Giles still has the same feelings in Season 6 when he actually does leave. Willow seems the same. In way way Xander loses his balance when made a butt monkey for Drac. Riley seems the same. Buffy actually gets quite motivated by the end of the ep due to Drac's visit - this seems positive until Dawn enters the scene. In the Real Me Dawn touches the crystals making Buffy fall and lose her balance. I'm waffling a bit here - sometimes it helps to just list things down. ***After watching these three episodes I'm still not actually sure when it started or where a magikal reset button would help. What I do notice is how each of the main scoobs have stuffed up in some way this year. Buffy - her relationship with Spike. Willow - her betrayal of Tara and her magic addiction. Xander - letting his fears of failure overrun his desire to marry Anya, leaving her at the altar. And yes Giles as well for deserting the gang - what does he have to clean up or face when he comes back at the end of this season? In some way they have all had a hand in the trouble that's to come and having to deal with the consequences of it. The four parts of them have made a whole big mess!
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I'm not completely sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me in your last post. No question that the rest of the scoobies are acting badly (I assume because the writers want to get the audience's sympathy with the sub-scoobies -Tara, Anya, Spike and Dawn) but I don't see their emotional makeup changing quite as drastically as Buffy's. I'm reasonably sure that at some point Joss or Marti took Sarah Michelle aside and assigned her some reading on clinical depression as homework; I'm just not sure when this was. If the disconnect happened at the end of 'Primaevil' instead of at the end of 'B v Dracula' I would expect that all four 'elements' would have been equally screwed up. I separate Buffy from the rest due to the lack of motivation. The others have made bad decisions -betrayals, even. But Buffy's not reacting to events, she's creating events (presumably) because of her disassociative emotional state. I keep thinking that there must be more to Dawn than we've seen, but maybe that's just wishful thinking and Buffy has no one to blame for the Spuffy sex and sisterly neglect but herself. Still, with all this we have an awful lot to deal with with just five more episodes to go. By my count, there's the invisiblity ray gun (w/ multi-million dollar giant diamond), the skull photo creepshow from 'After Life', the timeline screwups from 'Life Serial', 'Wrecked' and 'Dead Things', Rack, Amy, Halfrek/Cicely, the nice lady from Social Services, and Anya's current status. Add to that Spike's future status post-chip and whatever the hell phase three in the nefarious plans of the geeks of doom might be and the writers have enough plot points to deal with that anything regarding emotional states may just have to wait until season seven (hell, maybe eight).
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that the episode after Buffy was brought back was called 'After Life' NOT 'After Death'. Not to mention the whole 'social construction of reality' discussion from 'Life Serial'. And did we ever get a clear answer when Buffy asked 'Is this Hell?' back in 'Bargaining'? BY my count, every character but Clem is miserable and depressed. Wasn't there a specific description of Hell back in 'Anne'? Not to mention that elevator ride Angel took back in an episode whose title I can't remember off the top of my head.
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