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TWO TOWERS and RETURN OF THE KING Info!!! TTT footaged added on March 22nd!!!

Hey folks, Harry here... People ask why there is so much LORD OF THE RINGS stuff on this site... the reason is that so many of the readers of AICN send in reports about Lord of the Rings stuff when they get the chance to send a scoop. You see Star Wars, Matrix, Alamo... whatever stuff... Send it on this way... I'm everybit as excited about those flicks... Films like ADAPTATION and CONFESSIONS OF A DANGEROUS MIND and so on... But right now, the info that most seems to come in, is LORD OF THE RINGS... I wish there was more Star Wars and Spider-Man... or Hulk, but there is either a better job of keeping things quiet right now or a lack of interest by those to share what they've seen.... But for LOTR-fans... they're seeing and telling a lot!!! WAY TO GO!!!! March 22nd is when THE TWO TOWERS footage is tapped onto FELLOWSHIP OF THE RINGS!!!!! Yippeee!!!!!








Hello Harry!

Elanor here. You have been kind enough to post reports of mine in the past so I thought you might be interested in some great scoop from the Q & A with Peter and Fran et al at the Barnes & Noble Union Square NYC. He let loose with some cool information that LOTR fans will want to hear about. T2T and ROTK SPOILERS I just got back from the NYC Barnes & Noble where I had the distinct pleasure of meeting Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh. By sheer luck (and being a clever hobbit-lass) I was able to thank both of them personally for making their movie.

I got there late – at about 4:45 (I do work for a living!) and found the place jammed and buzzing. (This was exactly the same set up as for Sir Ian in November - it was packed then but this was ridiculous!). You couldn’t see the ample seating area for all the standees. I made an attempt to find a spot where I could see over the heads or between shoulders (I am short) but realized it was a lost cause. I wandered back behind the escalator and noticed a corridor being kept guarded and clear. Hmm. This is where Sir Ian entered last time. I decide to stay put. After 15 minutes the entire New Zealand/New Line entourage came forward from their hiding places behind tall bookcases.

A lady in front keeps the way clear. There is Peter Jackson himself. I smile at him and he sees me. I say "Mr. Jackson, thank you for your movie". He smiles more broadly and stops. I say "You know, I haven’t had a single bad day since it opened". He grins and laughs, and says "great" looking back at Fran kind of twinkley-eyed. The handler-lady gently urges him to keep moving and he does. Suddenly I am right next to Fran Walsh. I smile at her and she smiles at me and I say "Thank you, Ms. Walsh, you wrote a beautiful script". She beams and says "thank you". She seems much more shy than Peter but still she seems genuinely pleased. They move on through the corridor and I watch them, not realizing that Howard Shore just passed me.

By this time other fans have caught on that they are all coming out now and suddenly I am surrounded. Striding tall above the throng is Christopher Lee, looking thin but fit and quite friendly. The handlers step around to protect him from the gathering fans. Then the whole room erupts in applause as Peter is seen by those lucky folks in the seats. All the guests make their way to the front and sit at a long table. There is some strange jokey guy who serves as MC who I would have been happier without. I miss a lot of the beginning talk because the room is buzzing so much and I am too far away and I can’t see them at all. Eventually I move to where I can hear better but still never get to see them due to my being so short. HOWEVER – here are the high points of what was said.

Peter reiterated several details we already know about the DVD. August for the Theatrical version, November for the "special edition". This will have 30 minutes of extra footage and it will be integrated into the existing film and will include specifically the Galadriel gift-giving scene as well as others mentioned already. He mentioned "rope" as a gift and I believe he meant that Sam receives rope from Galadriel (as opposed to the soil and seeds box) – more on this in a minute. Peter explained that the gift scene was cut for momentum. That they looked at the movie and knew that they had to get it going again towards its climax. Howard Shore will compose NEW music to go with these scenes, which Peter said he thinks is the first time that will ever have been done –that usually when scenes are "put back in" the music is "lifted " from other sections of the existing score.

He said he found the hardest character to create visually (and that they are STILL working on it) to be Sauron. He said they’ve had many laughs about it and have envisioned many Monty Python-esque moments of a visor being lifted to reveal a giant flaming eyeball.

He talked of CHANGES TO T2T. He said there is more character development and stuff we won’t expect. He mentioned several newsworthy bits: Shelob is NOT in the second film but in the third. This of course means that T2T cannot end on the "cliffhanger" as in the book. Also that the bulk of T2T is focused on Frodo/Sam/Gollum; that the Slinker/Stinker scene is IN, that Faramir’s role is expanded in some way and that he will indeed cut between three story lines: Frodo’s, The Three Hunters and Hobbits/Ents. He says that’s very cinematic anyway and sort of a no-brainer. He said it may include a scene that Fran directed and shot with Andy Serkis showing how Smeagol became Gollum. Fran said Peter isn't finished editing T2T yet. lThere were several questions that I could not hear and a few times I could not hear the answer and twice these got laughs. I hope someone else will report on them. One of the questions involved Isengard.

ROTK - BIG SHOCKER – Peter was asked how he plans to deal with the ending of the story…since the SOTS is sort of a downbeat ending how do they plan to deal with that? PJ: "There won’t be a downbeat ending because it’s not there". A bit of stunned silence in the room. I find myself still in denial. Peter goes on to explain how he knows that the SOTS was important to Tolkien, that seeing the English countryside destroyed was a big theme but that they did not plan to end the film this way. He said that’s why they paid a sort of homage to it in the mirror of Galadriel scene. He also said he found it the most awkward chapter personally. But he stressed that in order to make a film like this of Frodo and The Ring and his journey to Mordor, you "just couldn’t do it". I called out "yes you can!" but was only heard by those near me.

I will have to ponder this awhile and, I suppose, get used to it as I got used to the several other changes. I don’t know HOW he plans to end the movie, but I see plenty of indication that he will not let us down.

Christopher Lee spoke a bit and let me tell you how fantastic it was to hear that VOICE! Lord you could just be so lulled by that voice. He has a wicked wit, too, and such delectable diction. I was in heaven. I love PJ’s voice too but it’s very different. His is more about the lovely Kiki accent where Lee’s is all about the timbre and melody. Anyway Lee praised the cast, New Line, Peter and Fran, Ian McKellen and the crew. He said the "rivalry" between SW and LOTR was ridiculous because the films are not comparable at all and he should know since he is in both! Then he went on to tease us by making wicked comparisons anyway, all in LOTR’s favor. Peter chimed in saying the rivalry was all made up – that he and GL have great respect for each other’s work, that the productions were supportive of each other and shared information frequently.

PJ explained the non-relationship with the Tolkien estate in a most gracious way (this has already appeared in print) and re-iterated that he does not know if Christopher Tolkien has seen the film or not. They were asked if they plan to publish their scripts and they said not at the moment as there seems to be a problem with legal rights to do so, but lawyers are working on it.

Peter said there will be a one minute teaser for the general public at some point before the release of T2T but MARCH 22nd is the day when the new final reels with the 3 ? minute PREVIEW will be shown in theatres worldwide. He said he convinced the studio to do it FOR THE FANS.

They were friendly and gracious throughout. Peter and Fran stayed a while to sign autographs and I snapped some pictures with a crappy flash camera. I am so glad I went. After all, we New Yorkers are entitled to some perks this year!

elanor






Hello Harry!

Here's o_ayalon....

Hi Harry,

I went to see the LotR panel this afternoon in the Union Square Barns & Noble in NYC. I got there about 3 hrs early to get a good seat but was surprised to find the place almost empty. By the time the panel started it was full "what a shock".

Peter, Frances, Howard and Christopher Lee "THE MAN" were very cool and talked about how they had done some of the effects, about how the "Two towers" had the most changes from the book (although have no fear Treebeard is in it!), and how Golum was the coolest. But other than that, and Lee's very funny comments about SW ep II (food wasn't as good as LotR), the most interesting bit was that the "Two Towers" preview will be 3.5 min long and will be attached to FotR on March 22.

Hope this will send people to see the movie again.

o_ayalon






And now for Dumbo's exhaustive report....

Hey Harry, long time reader, first time contributor.

Today I was lucky enough to snag a seat at the Lord of the Rings discussion on Union Square here in New York City. In attendance were Fran Walsh, Howard Shore (along with personal fan club...), and the Mr. Hobbit himself, Peter Jackson.

Overall they were very courteus and respectful of even the most rabid fans. They answered all the questions with great insight, and dropped a few interesting tidbits about Two Towers which I'll get into in a second. In fact the only thing wrong with the discussion was the hack comedian they got to modorate the thing. I don't know why B&N thought it would be a good idea to get a guy like this, he seemed a lot more interested in his ridiculous excuses for 'jokes' about than our questions. But enough of that, here's what we found out:

As we all know by now, Peter Jackson had made a cut of fotr with 30 minutes of extra footage, including Galardriel's gift giving scene (he mentioned that he really wanted to do this because the gifts will be used in the next movies and hopefully this will clear up some of impending confusion). He said the theatrical cut will be out on DVD in August, and the extended cut in November. However, as we all know such cuts aren't usually accompanied by original scoring, rather bits and pieces of scoring from other scenes will be included. Well Peter jackson will have none of that, and stated very proudly that Howard Shore would actually go back and write new music just for the added scenes!

Later on, our spunky moderator made his one real contribution to the conversation by asking him about the trailer for Two Towers (he clearly didn't know about the preview coming in March). Well this happened to give Jackson an opportunity to say that the preview was finished, and would be released in theaters March 22nd. He went on to say it would depict things we, "are not expecting so see." I assure you he meant that in a very good way...

When someone asked Jackson about Christopher Tolkien, he said that the Tolkien's, despite what some have read, had absolutley nothing to do with the movie's production, and he has not spoken to him about the movie. The reason being was that the Tolkien's were worried about being exploited, and the movie being portrayed as something they endorsed for advertising purposes. Since they had absolutely no say in what was happening with the production, they wanted no part in it, understandably, so there was no confusion.

Then someone asked Christopher Lee about the differences between working on Star Wars and LotR. Christopher Lee's responce was an emphatic, "Star Wars is in no way comparable to Lord of the Rings." He went on to explain how the settings were different and whatnot, always eager to point out how no comparison could be drawn between them. It was my impression that Christopher Lee was did not particularly enjoy working on Episode II, especially compared to LotR. Take that with a grain of salt of course, I could be wrong, but he was extremely emphatic about how "No comparison's could be drawn between Star Wars and Lord of the Rings."

Once Lee was through, Jackson took up the topic so he could dismiss rumours of any rivalry between his production and Lucas'. In fact, the Lucasfilm effects team came down to visit them in New Zealand in very early stages of production (Lucas was still working on Episode I) and invited Jackson's fx team to come up to Skywalker ranch where they received some "very valuable suggestions." Pretty cool.

Ok, then the conversation turned to the next movies, and some very specific questions were asked. Be forewarned, there are some light spoilers in the next section.

It started with a question about Gollum. Jackson went on and on about how motion capture was used extremely heavily in creating Gollum, and how wonderful Andy Smerkis was at bringing Gollum to life. This led him into saying that Two Towers would focus a lot on Gollum, Sam, and Frodo, and that they've 'fleshed out' their relationship which took them in some 'very interesting directions, and some very cool moments.' He went on to say that Faramir would also be playing a very big part in Two Towers and that the Sam, Frodo, Faramir relationship would be very 'fleshed out' as well. Jackson explained that Two Towers, as it stands alone, is not enough material to make a movie with. So apparently there will be a lot of this 'fleshing out' of plot lines going on. Also it would be cut very much like FotR was, switching back and forth between storylines and so on.

The big surprise for most of the people in the audience was the revelation that the Shelob would not be in Two Towers, but rather in Return of the King. There wasn't much explanation as to why he did this, but he wanted it to be known so there wouldn't be tons of disappointed fans come next december, and of course he assured as that Shelob would really be something to look forward to in 2003.

Jackson then, probably because she wasn't being asked very many questions, went on to say that Fran Walsh directed a scene in Two Towers depicting Shmeagol's descent into the creature Gollum. Sounds very cool, Jackson seemed very excited about it.

One last thing about the next movies: Someone asked if they were going to depict the Scouring of the Shire in Return of the King. Jackson answered with pretty much a flat out 'no.' As interesting as he thought that part of the book was, he had to admit that it sort of interrupted the flow of the story. Since flow seems to be a very big concern of Jackson's, he decided to just leave it out of the movie all together.He considers the scenes Frodo witnesses in Galadriel's pool as his homage to that part of the book.

The very last question of the night was whether not they would publish the full LotR script. Walsh fielded this one, saying it was very unlikely due to New Line's concerns about infringing on the Tolkie estate.

Well this turned out longer than I thought it would, and I left out some of the goofy antics the panel was pulling throughout the night, perhaps for another time. Personally I would have liked to have heard more from Howard Shore, but our moderator's insistance on calling on those people jumping up and down waving their hands left us with a lot of pretty lame questions. Oh well, what are you going to do?

If you decide to use this Harry, please call me Dumbo.






Here's yet another report from 'the unnamed one'

Thanks for posting the info. Otherwise I would have missed this great opportunity.

Here's some info, maybe new, maybe not.

--Exact date for Two Towers footage on FOTR: March 22.

--Shelob won't appear until ROTK.

--There will be two separate DVD releases of FOTR. First will be the theatrical version, I believe Jackson said August. Then there be the extended version, with about 30 minutes of extra footage, which will be released just before Two Towers hits theatres. He didn't mention whether #2 will include #1, or what features would motivate us to buy the first one (other than sheer impatience).

--Instead of using pieces of the musical score from the existing theatrical version, all new music will be composed and performed for the additional footage. They made quite a deal about this, since it apparently has never been done before.

--Jackson described how they do the CG for Gollum. The actor wears some sort of suit with sensors all over it, so that when he moves the computer generated Gollum mimics his motions exactly. This happens in real-time.

--And just for your amusement, there was a woman there who claimed to have seen the film 31 times. Jackson joked that he was concerned she was missing the 5:30 screening.






Now here's KCM who is also responsible for these wonderful photos you've been seeing throughout this page...

Hey there Harry,

Just got back from seeing Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, Howard Shore, and Christopher Lee at the Union Square Barnes & Noble here in NYC. All of them were as charming, witty, and personable as you might imagine. I expect you'll be getting many reports (the Enemy has many spies...), so I'll just cut to the quick with what I thought was the most important stuff:

* The Scouring IS NOT HAPPENING. There's been a bit of back and forth on this on the web, but PJ says it just didn't work for the film version. The scene in Galadriel's mirror in Fellowship is an homage to the Scouring, and that's all there'll be.

* Shelob WILL NOT BE in The Two Towers. Apparently, they've expanded the Frodo-Sam-Gollum-Faramir stuff quite a bit, and as such Shelob has been kicked to the beginning of ROTK. No word on how they'll end TTT. PJ wanted us to know so that "we wouldn't be disappointed." More Arwen too, they said.

* Fran Walsh wrote AND directed Gollum's backstory. So flashbacks of Smeagol and his birthday present will be in TTT.

* March 22 is the day the new last reel goes out to theaters. I assume that means you'll be able to see the 3.5 minutes of footage that night.

* DVD information was repeated (August and November.) Galadriel gift-giving and more Fellowship character development will be included. PJ doesn't like the term "director's cut" so it's an alternate version. It's got an extra half hour and it's been completed, except...

* Howard Shore is composing new music for the 30 minutes of Fellowship footage, which they said was a first.

* PJ and Chris Lee went to great pains to kill "the Internet stuff" about a rivalry between SW and LOTR. PJ said that the Lucasfilm folks were very helpful about suggesting animatics technology, etc., and Mr. Lee (who looked tired of the question) said there is NO comparison between the two films. (As he put it, LOTR happens on Earth and SW happens in Outer Space.)

* PJ was honored to be nominated for the Oscars, but doesn't think LOTR stands much of a shot for anything but the technical awards. But, as he noted, getting nominated is basically as good as winning and "Fellowship got 13 nominations and nobody can take that from us."

They said some other intriguing stuff, but not much in the new news dept. Some photos attached - hope you like 'em blurry. If you need a name, I'll be Ghost in the Machine (http://www.ghostinthemachine.net).

-KcM






Readers Talkback
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  • Feb. 22, 2002, 10:42 p.m. CST

    FIRST . BITCH

    by joeXschmoe

    ill be there on the 22nd. bitch.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 10:46 p.m. CST

    You kids get off my boat!

    by user id indeed!

    I'm excited about this, but only because I'm eating a mozzarella stick, and when I'm eating one of those you could get me excited about killing my dog.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 10:53 p.m. CST

    As I said in a previous post....

    by MartyScoresEasy

    I consider myself one of the luckiest guys alive today. Why, when I arrived late for this session and happened not to have my original 1965 copy of the Fellowship on hand? Because by an unbelievable stroke of good fortune, I went to stand by the table near the up escalators at this store (near the cordoned-off hallway), when I looked up and saw Mr. Lee himself stepping out from that hallway...when he suddenly stopped right next to me!!! I could have shaken his hand (or even spit on him, not that I'd do that!) with barely any movement. Of course, I didn't do this because I was hyper-ventilating to an astonishing degree at the time. Eventually he moved away because people were stampeding into us to get to him...and I regret not extending my arm. This is a sad story, friends, of a sad man, but it's true.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 10:58 p.m. CST

    Ending change, thank god.

    by cdaniels

    I loved the books, I really did...but the ending on screen would be a nightmare. Much props to Mr. Jackson.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:07 p.m. CST

    omg

    by FilmScreen

    oh my god.. looks great. good scoop

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:16 p.m. CST

    Moving Shelob is a very good idea

    by Nazzim O'Bazzim

    When reading the books I got a little worried about some of their filmability, and I was interested that PJ said that TTT had to be padded. He probably thought the same thing about the Frodo and Sam section of ROTK. It's pretty uneventful in the book, folks. They stuggle along and get to the mountain. It would take no time at all on film. The encounter with Shelob is just as they enter Mordor, so TTT is Frodo and Sam on the verge of Mordor, interacting with Gollum, ROTK is Frodo and Sam as they enter Mordor, which is where Shelob belongs. Shelob doesn't add much to TTT, but adds a lot to ROTK. Too bad about The Scouring of the Shire, --- I like it, I think it's disturbing with Saruman "Sharky" and Wormtongue and some actual dead hobbits. The adventuring Hobbits showed how much they'd grown (literally with Merry and Pippin, hope they keep that aspect)in handling this new hometurf adventure. And it felt very "Animal Farm", very political, Tolkein and George Orwell having been in the same mood --- but at least there's a nod to it in FOTR. (But when I saw that in Galadriel's Mirror, i thought it meant that the Scouring would be in. Oh Well) Can't wait for the DVD. I'll be waiting until November too.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:17 p.m. CST

    hmm

    by Darth Melkor

    Why change the Shelob part so thats it's in the third movie? I thought that was the highlight of Two Towers, which in my opinion is a weaker book than Fellowship. Now the movie is missing the great cliffhanger that made my jaw drop when reading the book. Oh well.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:17 p.m. CST

    that shit is going to be tiiiiight!

    by jackrabbit

    know what i'm sayin'?

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:18 p.m. CST

    This hurts me.

    by Vash_TS1

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:20 p.m. CST

    yowza

    by JoeStokowski

    is it just me, or is fran walsh a piece of ass? that's the first time i've seen her, and she's a fox.. is she married?

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:26 p.m. CST

    LORD OF CHANGES

    by punkdogmalcolm

    OK I understand not everything will traslate to film granted, but I personally think Leaving Shelob out is a bad call. I also am not too keen on the idea that they are going to Show Sauron. I may be mistaken but he never ever ever appeared in the books (in human form). If that happens I will be disappointed. we'll see

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:28 p.m. CST

    Elanor, I thought you were avoiding spoilers !? ;-)

    by wilko185

    Thanks to Elanor and the rest for reporting back. I already knew (pretty much) that the Scouring was out, but dropping Shelob from TTT is a bit of an eye-opener. So will it end as FOTR did for Frodo and Sam, with them slipping away towards the darkness of Mordor? TTT still has plenty of big moments though, and I still think it will be the best film of the three. (RoTK will be pretty packed, even without the Scouring, if the whole Cirith Ungol/Shelob sequence is in there.) So March 22nd eh, for my next viewing of FOTR. Or maybe March 25th would be more appropriate? :)

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:29 p.m. CST

    Shelob

    by Darth Melkor

    What aggravates me about them changing this is that it kills the build up. This may contain SPOILERS so be wary. The entire Frodo/Sam half of the story builds up to this very moment. If you've read the book you know why and you also know why it's such an incredible moment and the pinnacle of their relationship with Gollum.. Everything you've come to know and suspected gets thrown out the window and twisted around.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:32 p.m. CST

    This hurts me, part II

    by Vash_TS1

    *SPOILERS* Okay, fine, call me a geek, nerd, fanboy, whatever-the-hell you feel like. But those changes suck a$$. Shelob was one of the best moves that Tolkien could have made at the end of Two Towers, and damn if that entire scene just didn't reek of f*cking coolness. And IT BELONGS AT THE END OF TWO TOWERS!! I'd have thought that having Sam taking the Ring and Frodo "dying" at the end would have been friggin' PERFECT for the end of the movie! Almost written for the screen, even. I mean, come on! Tolkien knew what he was doing. The pacing and layout of the entire last two books is pitch perfect. And the Scouring of the Shire: it should have been streamlined and dropped in there with all the bells and whistles. That chapter is what defines Lord of the Rings as an adult story - it's about saving the world and the price that you pay to do it. Without the meloncholy ending, you've got a fairly well done fantasy tale - but without the greatness that LOTR just oozes from the confrontation between Gollum and Frodo in the Cracks of Doom straight through till Sam says, "Well, I'm back." Pure gold, straight through. PJ apparently has something in mind, and while I hope it's good, with all my heart, I honestly don't want to see Frodo just come home, waste away a little bit and then go to the Grey Havens. Yes, I'm lame. STFU and leave me alone. LOTR is great *literature*, and it is my deeply held opinion that great literature shouldn't be f**ked with. I can understand the editing they did in Fellowship, hell, I appreciate it. But God, I was hoping that this would still preserve every major moment of greatness that the books contain.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:33 p.m. CST

    no scouring... uh, good

    by theyak

    sorry to say this people... but as good as the books were, they could have used some gentle editing... fotr flows so much nicer in some areas... if jackson feels that the scouring can be done away with, so be it... life will go on, fanboys

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:35 p.m. CST

    Questions still remain

    by LenSp

    Interesting. I wonder if the movie will end with the Grey Havens still? The first movie set up the whole concept of loss and sacrifice by a few so that others would live in freedom. The leaving of Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo seems to be the natural resolution of that theme. Besides, we have to see Cirdan one more time to match his brief scene in the prologue. Hmm, since PJ dropped some of the Lotholorien material for time and pacinng, that does seem to lessen available material for TTT. The Gimli/Legolas friendly orc-killing rivalry, the Gimli/Eomer conflict and Sam's rope needs all are based on the missing events in the Golden Wood. Will we some of that stuff in brief flashback to help flesh out TTT? Though, there's plenty of material from Unfinished Tales about Rohan that PJ could use.

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:35 p.m. CST

    I'm having trouble with this whole Shelob thing........I tru

    by Brian 2000

    Shelob is what makes TTT! Agh! Not only that but it is essential to showing how quickly Gollum can give up Sam and Frodo. Adding it to RotK overloads that movie. Now there is Paths of the Dead, Shelob, Pellenor, Denethors Pyre, War of the Ring, Mount Doom, the Coronation and The Grey Havens?!? There is no climax for Frodo and Sam in TTT...I'd rather have a cliffhanger than just nothing. I mean I really could care so much more about Frodo and Sam's story than the others. Damn..I worry that PJ is spending too much time on humans and too little time on hobbitses. :(

  • Feb. 22, 2002, 11:49 p.m. CST

    LenSp

    by wilko185

    I believe the Grey Havens was filmed (which doesn't mean it will make the cut, of course). _______ There is some Gimli-Legolas conflict in FOTR to build on (at the council:"I'll be dead before I see the Ring in the hands of an elf"), but not much. I'm a bit concerned how Gimli's "special relationship" with Galadriel will be inserted into FOTR in the DVD too. eg Will it mean the Eomer-Gimli dispute will be in TTT (with no back-story, except an unlikely flashback) or just on the DVD version of TT or not at all? ______ I don't think PJ can use any material from Unfinished Tales, actually. Note, all the prologue material came from LOTR, which is all PJ has the rights to. _________ Oh, I forgot to say, excellent news on the Shore score! The more the better, and I can't wait for the TTT score either. Shore surpassed all my (admittedly not very high) expectations of him, and blew me away with the FOTR score.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:03 a.m. CST

    PJ is a class act!

    by eizzumdm

    Many of us were crestfallen when the Barnes and Noble people informed us that there would not be any autograph signings after. This made it so much sweeter when Peter Jackson announced at 6 PM that he and Fran would stay on stage to sign autographs. The B&N people freaked a bit as they hurriedly tried to figure out an orderly strategy for herding hundreds of rabid fans through the signing line, but that didn't matter to PJ. All he cared about was pleasing his fans. WTG Mr. Jackson! I will always treasure my red leather FOTR Soundtrack CD with the signatures of PJ, FW, and HS inside. I have a question, though, for any of those who were lucky enough to find Howard Shore in the back of the store as he was signing items with his rather unique signature. He draws five staff lines and then scribbles in what appears to be musical notation; he then signs his name underneath. Can anyone who reads music (and got his sig) decipher what that notation means? Thanks!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:06 a.m. CST

    Fellowship of the Rings?!??

    by Ticketman

    For a website that posts nothing but LOTR info all day, every day, you'd think Harry would get the fucking title of the movie right. Nothing chaps my ass more than seeing it referred to as Fellowship of the RINGS. Do your research, or at least proof read your shitty news.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:07 a.m. CST

    Shelob shmelob

    by Dumbo14

    I'm not saying Shelob isn't going to kickass, but i think you guys should have a little faith in our man Mr. Jackson. Do you really think he doesn't have a plan for ending the sam, frodo, gollum plot line in some sort of climactic moment? At the discussion Jackson really emphasized a focus on Faramir, so my money's on him and his gang of rangers to come in and end the movie right. As for the lack of Star Wars and Spiderman stuff it should be pretty obvious, we are in pre-oscar zone here and the nominies are going to get all the buzz. After oscar night i'm sure things will change.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:18 a.m. CST

    PJ shows some character??

    by wilko185

    PJ says there's an "intensification" of the Frodo-Sam-Gollum relationships, and the Faramir stuff. Has the action extravaganza of the Spider's Pass been pushed out for *character development*?? Well that might be good news. PJ's damned if does, damned if he don't, of course. People were complaining (wrong-headedly IMO) FOTR was a series of special FX with no character development..... now there may be the opposite criticism of TTT. Oh well. The reported focus on the Smeagol aspect of Gollum sounds good too, from a depth-of-character POV. The Frodo part of TTT will not just be Frodo, Sam and Gollum walking through some pretty and not-so-pretty scenery, seemingly. Should be interesting to see just how well the CGI Gollum interacts. ____ I hope the Minas Morgul scene is beefed up. That *could* make quite a good climax to the film, come to think of it. (The heroes slip through Morgul Vale just in time. The Great Siganal goes up and the Witch King leads out his armies... and seems to sense Frodo and the Ring. Will he find him ...? OK, not a great finish if it's just like that, but something could be done with it, I think.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:26 a.m. CST

    The Real Question Is...Will Shelop Have Mechanical Shooters Or S

    by GEEKBASHER v3.0

    It will be interesting to see where it ends. I can say that TTT bored the fuck out of me, especially the interaction with Gollum. But I can't honestly say where would be a good part to end TTT.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:51 a.m. CST

    Thanks Gaspode ("the Wonder Dog"?)

    by wilko185

    You cleared up my question about whether TTT would follow on from the film or DVD version is FOTR: the DVD version, which is what others implied in their reports, and is good news, I think (though potentially confusing for neophytes: where did Sam get that rope? Since when is Gimli defending an elf woman's honor? etc).______ Btw, if PJ is following the timeline of the books, and is intercutting between the two story strands (which I believe he is), then he may be justified in moving Shelob to RoTK. By the time we see Shelob, Aragorn is on the Paths of the Dead, well into RoTK. _______ Anyway, RoTK will *start* with a bang, even if TTT doesn't *end* with one. Frodo "dies" and Sam taking the Ring.... then Frodo's captured. Then Mordor.... the whole thing sounds quite harrowing for poor Frodo in film 3.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:53 a.m. CST

    re the sequence in the 'books'

    by Galadriel_tx

    Just so you all know, Tolkien originally wrote The Lord of the Rings as just that; one book, The Lord of the Rings. His publishers thought it was much too long and cumbersome to be just one book, so they determined where to make the splits to create 3 books instead. So, when you think about where the movies end (like Boromir's death being at the end of the 1st movie as opposed to the 2nd, and Shelob being moved into the 3rd) it really is quite arbitrary when you think about it. As a fan of the prose for the past 25 yrs, all I know is PJ is doing absolutely amazing things with putting Tolkien's vision on screen, and I am so grateful and giddy and ECSTATIC that I can hardly stand it! Cheers :)

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:55 a.m. CST

    NO SHELOB IN The Two Towers! Wow. What a bombshell. I conside

    by Ralph Cifaretto

    This news sucks! It sucks! It sucks! They're going to chop up the whole Sam/Frodo/Gollum/Shelob climax? Fellowship of the Ring was just about the best film this year, but this makes me sad.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:03 a.m. CST

    Shelob's in

    by exPFCWintergreen

    Just not in TTT but ROTK so settle down. This makes sense because if you think about it there are only like 3 chapters of Sam & Frodo in Mordor during ROTK. So adding Shelob to ROTK and cutting it from TTT makes sense._____I don't, however, like this adding Faramir to the Rohan/Ent/Saruman story lines. It seems kind of like adding just another character to a stary line that already has tons of them.____But it does sound like a lot of the changes aren't so much cuts as additions or "fleshing outs"

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:06 a.m. CST

    For God's sake...Shelob is the climax of TTT. Lame PJ.

    by Ralph Cifaretto

    ----SPOILERS---------------------- The betrayal from G., the death & return of 1 character & the heroic triumph of another is NOT an appropriate ending?

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:10 a.m. CST

    Grey Havens WILL be in

    by exPFCWintergreen

    I remember reading something about PJ saing how the Grey Havens was his favourite part of the book.________ Anyone notice how I spelt favOUrite. I'm Canadian bitches and our hockey team is going to beat the FUCK out of the American team on Sunday - oh yes we are.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:19 a.m. CST

    Ralph - Ending

    by exPFCWintergreen

    Don't worry so much. You saw what they did with FOTR - you like that ending, didn't you? I'm betting the TTT ends with Helm's Deep. And the Frodo/Sam/Gollum story ends with them seeing the army led by the Witchking coming from Minas Morgul. This will be kind of a foreboding ending, you know? They'll probably have a lot of Faramir talking about a eventual unavoidable attack on Minas Tirith and this will foreshadow that well.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:40 a.m. CST

    PJ, FW, and HS sigs

    by eizzumdm

    I realize that I'm being a total fanboy, but just in case you were curious what the signatures of Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, and Howard Shore look like, I threw up some quick scans onto an iTools gallery. Link: http://homepage.mac.com/muzzie/PhotoAlbum1.html

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:45 a.m. CST

    Cool eizzumdm. And re Howard Shore

    by wilko185

    someone asked him during the signing whether there would be a re-issued soundtrack with the additonal material on it. Apparently there won't be :(

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:59 a.m. CST

    GHOST IN THE MACHINE!!!

    by empyreal0

    I thought nobody had heard of that group. Sweet. Alright, now that I've got that out of my system...

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:01 a.m. CST

    Yes, but will Shelob have wings....?

    by lil' bastard

    All that crap about whether the Balrog will have wings or not was shite. Hey fanboys, here's your next curly one.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:11 a.m. CST

    Moving Shelob, Gollum scenes

    by X-Girls

    Moving Shelob seems good, ROTK is the most boring book, for me. Moving her will be difficult, she shows up in about, what, half of TTT? It will feel like something's missing, and it will be less cool, but it will even out the coolness in the trilogy, if they can only do this right. I always wanted more Gollum in the books, as he's my fave, but can they match up to Tolkien, and is less really more? I can't imagine how a human actor could possibly portray Gollum, I want to find out a hell of a lot more about that physical acting and his voice!! Mpeg or Mp3. I was wondering about Chris Tolkien seeing the film. I'd love to know.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:15 a.m. CST

    Hey Joe, I think Fran IS married...TO PETER JACKSON!!!!

    by Nazzim O'Bazzim

    TTT will probably end with Helm's Deep, they'll probably show the ents attacking Isengard before moving on tho Helm's Deep, better than the books "Oh, and this is what happened here, by the way".////////And so what if you have to wait another year to see Shelob? It's not like it was cut. Without Shelob, Frodo and Sam in Mordor before getting to the Mountain is just a bunch of scurrying in shadows and going "I'm Hot", "I'm thirsty", "Where's Gollum?" and "Oww, this Ring feels Heavy". Keeping the journey into Mordor all in one movie makes perfect sense, it keeps the trip together, it makes it look involving and long, and those who don't know the book might be thinking, "Jeez, that was a nasty monster, what else is out there?"//////// But I AM still saddened about the loss of Scouring.///// I just read a post on another site where someone was bizarrely complaining that there was no Radagast the Brown in FOTR, so I guess you can't please 'em all

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:16 a.m. CST

    Hey Joe, I think Fran IS married...TO PETER JACKSON!!!!

    by Nazzim O'Bazzim

    TTT will probably end with Helm's Deep, they'll probably show the ents attacking Isengard before moving on tho Helm's Deep, better than the books "Oh, and this is what happened here, by the way".////////And so what if you have to wait another year to see Shelob? It's not like it was cut. Without Shelob, Frodo and Sam in Mordor before getting to the Mountain is just a bunch of scurrying in shadows and going "I'm Hot", "I'm thirsty", "Where's Gollum?" and "Oww, this Ring feels Heavy". Keeping the journey into Mordor all in one movie makes perfect sense, it keeps the trip together, it makes it look involving and long, and those who don't know the book might be thinking, "Jeez, that was a nasty monster, what else is out there?"//////// But I AM still saddened about the loss of Scouring.///// I just read a post on another site where someone was bizarrely complaining that there was no Radagast the Brown in FOTR, so I guess you can't please 'em all

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:52 a.m. CST

    Scouring

    by Fields of Mars

    I may be alone in this, but I for one, never really liked the Scouring of the Shire. The chapter kinda ruined the narrative flow of the book, for me. SPOILERS****start: The hobbits destroy the ring, they go back to the shire and have to deal with the same crap again? ****End SPOILERS. Maybe it

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:10 a.m. CST

    LOTR DVDS, ETC.

    by Messyjoe

    I just can't understand this two DVD approach. Who's gonna buy the August one, when a better one is coming in a few more months? Is Jackson going to do this for all the movies?? How about doing a final CONTINUOUS DVD with all the extras thrown in? (I don't give a shit if it's 20 hrs long. It's a DVD, so you can stop watching and take a piss, right?) It does appear that we have to hold his fat little Kiwi ass to the fire about the endings, and complain loud if word leaks out about some dumass decision. Just maybe it will make him see that he has to follow the story. Personally I found too much Gollum boring. SHelob is a thrill but is still just an interlude like the Balrog. I want more elves, Nazguls and dwarves, if he wants to 'expand on some bits.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:17 a.m. CST

    No big concerns except one.

    by nazismasher

    I'm glad they decided to explain these changes ahead of time so the fans have time to digest the implications. First. I have to admit I don't agree with some of the changes. I too would have preferred to see Shelob at the end of TTT. No big disappointment though. I think the SOTS could have been worked in, but I understand the reasons why it was cut and it came as no big surprise to me. Again, no big disappointment. Second. I hope they don't sweat too much over Sauron. Anything that deviates from the books will upset the hard core fans. This cannot be helped. Third. My only real concern is Saruman's death in TTT which is almost certain to happen since the scouring is out. I loved Christopher Lee's Saruman and I wish someone could have asked about it.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:42 a.m. CST

    DAMMIT!! Someone send Harry some inside info on Spider-Man!!

    by spiderblood1969

    I mean it comes out on May 3rd.Just a little over two months from now for Christs sake!! There'll be plenty of time for LOTR so where is Spidey goodness?!?!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:43 a.m. CST

    First Chuck Jones dies and now this??!! I feel so depressed righ

    by forward_deploy

    The next time you look up in the clouds and see bugs' head or an Acme anvil you can whisper a solemn thank you to Chuck Jones...thanks Chuck, wherever you are.-------------------------Now, about this TTT business. Scouring of the Shire is out, fine. The Frodo/Sam/Gollum dynamic is 'fleshed' out, no problem. Elves popping up at Helms Deep and Eowyn/Arwen friction...ok, I'll let that one go. But WHY O WHY, PJ, MUST THOU FORSAKE SHELOB UNTIL ROTK!!!! How else will you end it? I can understand having the script flow parallel to the timeline in the books but since you're in the habit of exercising your 'artistic license', why not do a little hand-waiving, and some tactical editing and let Shelob be. It's a ready-made cliffhanger. The Hungry-Man dinner of movie endings if you will--just pop into the microwave and set for high and in 7-10 mintues, voila, a totally flabergasted and emotionally strewn out audience counting the days until ROTK, or the number of times they'll go and see it again, whichever's least. ****************** Cinematically it does'nt make sense. That's why I present to you my WETA Bit Off More Than They Can Chew (WETABOMTTCC) theory (if the acronym is to long you can call it the What Are They Thinking? (WATT?) theory). Now according to the WATT? theory, WETA has spread itself to thin. Think aboudit. You have Helms Deep, the Ents, Storming of Isengard, Dead Marshes, geography surrounding Mordor, oh, and did I mention CG Gollum? WETA, PJ & Co. need to 'fess up and admit that the FX work has them up the Anduin without a paddle. Next time you ask yourself "WATT were they thinking?" you'll automatically know the answer.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:27 a.m. CST

    it's all marketing

    by cifra2

    This is going too far... So, am I supposed to pay again in March 22nd for seeing a three minute advance? Do they think that I am stupid? For a trailer that will hit internet in a few months? And at least, they have told that a few months after the LotR DVD will come the Special Edition. So, I'll wait for the Special!!! This marketing fever is going too far.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 6:30 a.m. CST

    I don't know about this shit...

    by crazybastard

    dropping Shelob out of TTT is a major bombshell, and right now I think it's a terrible, terrible idea. It's such a good fucking climax for the movie!! What the fuck is PJ smoking?!?!!! FOTR was FANTASTIC so I still trust the man but this just sounds bad. I pray that he knows what he's doing...

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 7:02 a.m. CST

    Shelob is timeline-wise firmly in ROTK!

    by Ioreth

    if you remember some of the timline in appendix B that is :-) (p. 1130 in particular in my one-volume edition) ... it

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 7:54 a.m. CST

    The Scouring of Shelob

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    I agree with the posters that reckon the ending of TTT is a killer cliffhanger as it is and needs no fucking about with. Didn't the Bakshi version end at Helms Deep? Anyway, I suppose it would work in ROTK, but my question is, why should it? So TTT is thin and needs fleshing out? So where's she gone? Anyway, I did hear the Scouring was out ages ago, and I disagree, I think it's quite important to show it, but it's pointless arguing over it since it's been gone forever and everyone had this row last year. But Shelob. Damn. It's one of my favourite bits. I know it's in the next movie, but the build-up will be lost. Or so I reckon. Then again, what do I know. Well, we'll see, I guess. I loved the first one to bits so hopefully the second one will pan out too.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 9:36 a.m. CST

    SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

    by Atticus Finch

    This is the reason for the trailer of TTT to be attached to FOTR, and it is the reason for two DVD versions. Lucas is losing the title to PJ...for greediest bastard!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:03 a.m. CST

    the road never ends

    by Hrunting

    pj you cant do this after you have done so commendably. dont mess with the ending it gives substance to what sam and frodo did. many things left middle earth and much was lost and this has to be showed you cant have a happily ever after. please oh please *whining gollum like noises*. lord dont sugar coat this it cheapens the price that was paid what made the scacrifice so harsh and meaningful. Insanity is rampant in the film industry and not in a good way.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:17 a.m. CST

    "Yes it can!"

    by MPJedi2

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:19 a.m. CST

    What aboot the Ents?!?!?!?!?(Canadian Version)

    by Va Fan Cool!!!

    I'm surprised that nothing was mentioned. Forget about Shelob, how is WETA going to pull off walking trees that have a speech impediment AND make it look COOL?

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:23 a.m. CST

    "Yes it can!"

    by MPJedi2

    OK, we are the audience...we can take or leave what is given to us. Go to the movie, or not go. It's up to us, you see. What we do NOT have a right to do is try to tell an artist, be it Jackson, Lucas, Raimi or whoever, how to make a movie. Jackson and Raimi are adapting a work, with full legal rights to do so...YOU AND I HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL THEM HOW TO DO IT. In Lucas' case, well, it's his world, Jar Jar and all. Our rights as the audience begin and end at the box office, when we plunk down our money. I'm seeing all three, baby...they've all proved to me they can tell a story without me looking over their sholder.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:25 a.m. CST

    Making of LOTR doc. premiering eight months early in...

    by Sith Witch

    Norman, OK at the Univ. of Ok. film dept. on March 11th at 8:30 PM. This will be the premiere with the documentarian Casa Botes in attendance, who shot the whole thing concurrent with the production in New Zealand. I e-mailed Harry about this weeks ago, but he never posted it or even responded. Must not be that big a LOTR fan I guess. So there you all are...You can e-mail me for more information...

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:44 a.m. CST

    big chief chew

    by Hrunting

    lucas can muck up star wars as many was as he wants; it is his. fellowship was not originally Jackson and he has to show reverence for tolkiens story which he has done wonderfully so far. messing to much with the ending is more than artistic licenses it like drawing a mustache on the mona lisa

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 11:08 a.m. CST

    I've thought it over a lot...Peter It just doesnt work!

    by Brian 2000

    If it's flow he is worried about then it completely ruins the flow! I could care less about action, its just the icing on the cake for me. But this scene is not an action sequence it's the most important part of The Two Towers! And it is essential to Sam's growth. Having this in the second installment shows how far Sam has come already and while reading the scene years ago it just had PERFECT MOVIE ENDING slapped all over it! This just does not belong in RotK....you've got to change it!!!!! There is plenty of Frodo/Sam material in RotK as it is - please put it back in TTT. I would rather see Shelob in TTT then see the storming of Isengard by the ents.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 11:18 a.m. CST

    Shelob, TT, and ROTK

    by PoxyVonSinister

    At first I found it odd that PJ would say TT was a little short for a feature film and then would take a big chunk of it out. But as someone said earlier, the Frodo/Sam/Gollum sections of ROTK lack a lot of drama until they actually get to Mt. Doom. When you consider at the same time we'll be seeing the Battle of the Pelennor fields in all its glory (quivering in anticipation), Frodo and Sam dressed as orcs marching along simply isn't going to stand up. Moving Shelob/Cirith Ungol into the third film gives that part some balance. It fits chronologically is well -- if you look at the Tale of the Years at the end of the book, the encounter with Shelob occurs right as the siege of Minas Tirith is beginning. As for TT, you've got a perfectly acceptable climax in Helm's Deep and the confrontation with Saruman, which would actually be a more satisfying climax for those who were put off by the ending of FOTR.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Relax, take a deep breath and trust in Peter Jackson

    by IAmLegolas

    Will you? None of this cliffhanger here or cliffhanger there will matter in a few years when you are sitting down and watching all 3 movies together for 9 hours on a Sunday afternoon, will it? It's one big story and you can end each chapter however YOU want it then. Remember that Tolkien didn't want to chop his book into 3 parts, it's one book..... one movie.... one movie to rule them all, mothaphuckas!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 11:38 a.m. CST

    I disagree....RotK has enough interesting things that happen to

    by Brian 2000

    Hmm...lets see...cutting together Pelennor with Sam and Frodo marching as Orcs...yeah maybe a bit boring. Cutting Pelennor with the rescue of Frodo? Just right. Cutting together Pelennor with Shelob OVERLOAD. It will take the emotion out of the scene if its at all edited between another action sequence. This just does not work, it overloads RotK. I dont get it - there is to little to work with in TTT but he cuts out the greatest scene in the whole book? If he said there was too little for Frodo and Sam in RotK that would make a little more sense...but this doesnt. If you are worried about the events of Sam and Frodo in RotK then beef up Frodo's rescue...beef up the journey to Mount Doom...adding Shelob ruins the purpose of that scene. Sam running off to save Frodo then fading to black and rolling credits = EMOTIONAL HIGH POINT. Sam running of to save Frodo and then saving him 15 minutes later = NOTHING. There is no way for Peter to make TTT have as good an ending, absolutely no way. Oh by the way - to all of those defending Peter by saying "he wants to stick to the timeline!!" or whatever, I check the timeline - if PJ was sticking to the timeline then Frodo and Faramir would meet up in RotK because that happens about two days after Pippin looks into the Palantir. So no, PJ is not trying to stick to the timeline of events. Unless he sticks The paths of the dead and the muster of Rohan into TTT..which would also be a bad choice. Damn it!!! Why??? Having Shelob in the end is just how it has to be!! Say it aint so Peter, say it aint so!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 11:41 a.m. CST

    Nice excuse - but Tolkien DID cut the whole story into different

    by Brian 2000

    [BOOK I, BOOK II]=FotR, [BOOK III, BOOK IV]=TTT, [BOOK V, and BOOK VI]=RotK. And guess how Book IV ends!?!?! With SHELOB. So he did cut up his story into six very distinct parts, each with an ending of sorts. And Shelob definitely was not part of Book VI.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:30 p.m. CST

    And so it begins...

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    The Fear. Yes, the Fear that it may all get cocked up. And I'm kind of happy with that, since expecting the whole movie to be fabulous without a care in the world is not part of the experience - there's got to be a little anxiety there. Tension within the movie, and tension waiting for the movie. Yes. That's perfect. How will it all work out? Who knows. But at least we get to waste oodles of bandwidth second-guessing it all, which is also kind of cool in a scary way. Or maybe I'm just weird.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:35 p.m. CST

    MPJedi12, Film Edits, DVD

    by X-Girls

    Whether we see the movie or not, we can still criticize his decisions to edit the beloved Tolkien book. It doesn't mean we dislike the film or P. Jackson, but no one needs a record contract to judge/give input on a CD. Shelob being gone seems better to me all the time. I think they'll do a great job on TTT. I want more Gollum! The scouring is crucial, I think, Imagine LOTR ending on a happy note!! I think that they'll make one DVD in WIDESCREEN and another in STANDARD, if that's the case, I'll get both, and it will be more understandable.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:36 p.m. CST

    TTT ends with Tolkien's most emotional scenes, IMO. Spectac

    by Ralph Cifaretto

    ======SPOILER===== Brian2000 is right...Sam's triumph is the true climax of book 2. Saruman being humiliated and stripped of his power is fun, but it's not the same for me. Sam's big scene & the choices he makes make for a beautiful, unexpected & emotional ending.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:48 p.m. CST

    Brian2000, about the timeline

    by wilko185

    instead of saying Faramir should be in RoTK as it happens after Pippin looks in the Palantir it would make more sense to say TTT "ends" approximately on March 9th, when according to the Tale of Years "Gandalf reaches Minas Tirith. Faramir leaves Henneth Ann

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 12:48 p.m. CST

    Brian 2000 made a very good point...

    by Ralph Cifaretto

    "Sam running off to save Frodo then fading to black and rolling credits = EMOTIONAL HIGH POINT. Sam running of to save Frodo and then saving him 15 minutes later = NOTHING. There is no way for Peter to make TTT have as good an ending, absolutely no way." After writing TTT, Tolkien said to an friend that he had written his hero's into such a tight spot, he didn't know if he could get them out!" That's the note I wanted TTT to end on.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:10 p.m. CST

    New TTT Ending?Yeah baby!No scouring so what!

    by Orangeblossom

    I GOT YOUR BACK PJ! YOU ARE ODVIOUSLY EXTREMELY TALENTED AND I KNOW YOU WON'T FAIL US!! I AM GLAD THAT SHELOB IS IN ROTK BECAUSE I WOULD BE LEFT A BIT EMPTY HEARTED IF IT WAS in TTT BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT the SHELOB ENDING ALREADY. HOW ABOUT ADD SOME SUSPENSE EH! AS FOR THE SCOURING OF THE SHIRE..UM..GOOD. I AM GLAD THAT HE IS TAKING IT OUT. TO ME IT IS SORT OF A FILLER YA KNOW! AS FOR THOSE WHO OBJECT....QUIT WHIIINNNIINNNGGGGGG!!!! SHEESH EVERONE'S A CRITIC~_^

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:30 p.m. CST

    WHAT ABOUT LOTR BLOOPERS??????????????????????????????????

    by Orangeblossom

    All this is nice but did anyone at that session ask if PJ was gonna put the bloopers reel on the delux dvd set? PJ DID tell Quickbeam AND Tehanu from the One Ring.Net that he would. I hope so because the bloopers Harry described had me on the floor laughing and all the people at the University I go to are hoping so also. If not on this dvd, how about on the future ones. Come on PJ, We're dying to know!!!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 1:40 p.m. CST

    goods and bads

    by Dragonfire

    It's great to know that Howard Shore is composing music for the DVD 'alternate version'. Much appreciated, though I'm a bit pissed off about the special edition only coming out in November. I don't see any reason for that other than trying to take advantage of the fans. There's no way I'm going to buy the normal version in August if I know there's a special edition out in November, so that means I'm going to have to wait almost a year. Oh well, I suppose I should be grateful they warned us, rather than get us to buy the normal version and then spring the special edition version on us. As for the TTT and ROTK info, I'm glad to hear PJ's concentrating on the character development, especially the Gollum/Frodo/Sam scenes. I'm really glad they've filmed Gollum's whole background, with his finding of the ring and Deagol and all that. I was afraid they were going to leave out all the Gollum information when it wasn't in FOTR. Also good that they're fleshing out Faramir's character in TTT. He's probably going to have Faramir tell Frodo about his dream and the prophecy and all the stuff that Boromir told the council about in the book. I can understand him cutting out the scouring of the shire. It won't work in a movie, having it build up to the climax at Mount Doom and then having a whole side story after that. To be honest I saw it coming. I hope the Grey havens are still in though. They should be considering PJ said in an interview that the Grey Havens was one of his favourite parts in the book. Pity about Shelob being moved to ROTK though. I thought it would have made a good climax to TTT. I suppose PJ must have some plan.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:14 p.m. CST

    I want my SCOURING!

    by Roosterbooster

    The scouring is the necessary counter-part to the elegiac opening sequence of The Shire in all its verdant glory. It shows that evil can be found at home and is not the preserve of distant, sinister foreigners. It sounds as though this is a studio decision, they want a saccharine "happy" ending and they don't want to confuse the popcorn crowd. I have to say that I'm starting to have doubts about Peter Jackson, I hope I'm wrong. And what's this about thirty minutes of extra footage? I thought we were getting more like 90 minutes. Why two dvd releases? Branching could have been used to integrate the extra scenes so the viewer could choose which version to watch. As for the Two Towers footage gimmick it's just a cynical marketing ploy dressed up as a thank-you to the fans.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:34 p.m. CST

    Damn !!!

    by Evenstar*

    The whole "Shelob isn't in TTT"-thing really sucks! It would have been an exellent cliffhanger. That way, people who didn't read the books could suffer even harder than with the FOTR-ending. Damn! Damn!! Damn!!!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:34 p.m. CST

    by spideyman1218

    You ingrates! After whining and whining, Harry fixes the talkback and you cant even thank him for it?! Thanks Harry!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Stunned by changes. Please help.

    by Smakamoto

    I cannot believe what I am hearing about the this major change to the ending of The Two Towers. Now, I will be the first to admit that a book and a movie are two different things. There has to be changes in order for a book to work as a screenplay. The scouring of the shire would never work in the movie. In fact it didnt really work in the book for that matter. Of the three books I was most worried about Peter's adaption of Return of the King because of the early climax and the overlong falling action that follows and ends with the scouring. I am happy to hear it has been eliminated in order to correct the cinematic flow of the story and hopefully move the climax closer to the end. But it shouldn't have happened at the expense of the 2 towers ending. This part of the trilogy for me (I could be alone) was the most exciting and important part of the 3 books. It made the 2nd book the best of the trilogy. What a cliffhanger, what action, what excitement, what betrayal, what loyalty, what a huge fucking mistake to move it to the beginning of the ROTK. Now Im willing to give Pete the benefit of the doubt here. But at this point it looks like a huge mistake. What the hell are they going to use to end TTT. I understand if he is going to cut the later third of ROTK that he needs filler, but cmon. That book is huge. There is tons of material in ROTK to give us 3 hours without killing the greatest cliffhanger in any series. I would rather he kept the scouring of the shire if it meant we get the shelob cliffhangar in TTT. My excitement level for the movie has just dropped bigtime. The real ending for TTT could have been comparable in scope to the ending of Empire. I would really like to hear your opinion on this one Harry. To me its a no-brainer. Petes killing the most exciting part of the trilogy by moving it. I'm actually surprised you havent commented on this one. Oh and for those of you who havent read the book, you wouldnt understand at this point what Im talking about and unfortunately it looks as if you never will.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 2:51 p.m. CST

    I like melancholy endings.

    by MikeSal222

    What's wrong with a melancholy ending? Oh well. No Scouring doesn't bother me, but moving Shelob to ROTK does. No Bombadil, no Scouring. Those are two major elements of the book, but I guess I understand why they had to go. But fiddling around with Shelob, that's just wrong.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Is there any way to get Pete to change his mind.

    by Smakamoto

    I dont care if they have to push the movie back in order to correct the storyline and put Shelob and the choices of Samwise where they belong. They gotta fix this one. For those of you who think otherwise either you seriously havent read the books (maybe you cant read) or you just dont understand how plot devices, storlines, and scriptwriting work. Oh yeah and here is a couple of answers to some posts in here: 1. the trilogy may have been written as one book but you're out of your mind if you think you can devide that material anywhere you want and still expect it to work in a cinematic fashion. 2. Gandalf didnt know the 9 riders were out there when he left Frodo. Gandalf doesnt use his powers all of the time because he is a humble wizard and that is part of his character. And the rest of your questions were nickpicky details that would destroy the interesting details of the story if you changed them. You know who you are. stop wasting my time. 3. For those of you dont care about the changes because PJ is a god or whatever, I just want to remind you that George Lucas made Empire (one of the best movies of its kind) as well as Episode 1 (one of the worst movies of its kind) And i believe TTT will be good even without shelob, but it could be fucking great with her and more importantly the death of frodo and sam taking the ring. I wont apologize for spoilers because you people piss me off. 4. as for anyone in here who is talking about anything other then lord of the rings- you are in the wrong fucking area, nobody in here cares what you have to say. thanks for your time and dear god PJ please rethink the ending of TTT.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:26 p.m. CST

    Oh Ye of little faith

    by spideyman1218

    You know, you are all the same people who almost committed suicide when they heard Tom Bombadil and Glorfindel weren't gonna be in Fellowship! But everything turned out ok, right?! You're all praising Fellowship as one of the greatest movies of all time, and so am I! The little omissions are made up for with the awesome scope of the movies! Everyone just take a chill pill and trust PJ...he didnt let us down the first time around.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:28 p.m. CST

    by Westrum

    dammit all, i want the theatrical edition...but i want the special edition. but i don't want to buy both!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:34 p.m. CST

    RE: Gandalfs Humble Nature

    by spideyman1218

    I said the exact same thing when I first read the books, but a friend of mine suggested that any use of magic by Gandalf would attract even more evil things

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 3:55 p.m. CST

    re: bjark on gandalf

    by Smakamoto

    You ARE alone on this..... just kidding. Let me expand a bit on the nature of Gandalf and his character. Gandalf is quite a bit humbler then you may think. He does not throw his powers around or wield them without caution. He knows that Sarumon is a stronger wizard then he is and readily admits it when seeking advice from him. This goes towards his humbleness. I dont believe he uses his powers to that extent until he truly thinks it is the only way out as he did with the Balrog. As to why he desroyed the bridge in the middle, the balrog was right behind him, he was in the heat of the moment and he believed it was the right time to act. If he had destroyed the bridge at the other end the outcome would have been similiar anyway. Take a closer look at the scene or the book and you will see that it didnt matter where he was positioned in the placement of the spell on the bridge. Why did gandalf not run after he placed the spell? well gandalf may be humble but hes no pussey. He was standing up to the Balrog until it was defeated in order to save the others. He did not expect after the balrog went down that the whip would come back for him . But this justs makes great storytelling. Cmon now, am i right or am i right. The real question you should be asking is why did they not run up to gandalf and pull him up or why did gandalf let go for that matter. HMMMMMMMMMMMM, you think about that one for awhile and get back to me.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 4:07 p.m. CST

    RE: jabbathenut

    by Smakamoto

    You are right about giving PJ the benefit of the doubt. I realize that changes are necessary when translating the book to film as I have said before. Bombadil would never work in the movie and the same goes for the Scouring. But I still think changing the ending to TTT is a mistake here. I guess only time will tell. And i didnt mean to suggest that Lucas directed Empire, just that he was responsible for it.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 4:10 p.m. CST

    Humble yet Powerful

    by Smakamoto

    "Don't be to quick to deal out death and judgement"

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 4:21 p.m. CST

    The reason they went to the bridge

    by spideyman1218

    Simple enough. It was the only way out.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 4:27 p.m. CST

    If "There's not enough material in TTT for a film," then why

    by DufusyteII

    Fellowship was cramped because there was so much material they needed to cut tons of things out, and now PJ says, "There's not enough things in TTT to make a whole film, so they are adding stuff to flesh out etc." Hmmm, putting two and two together, you have to wonder why they didn't shift some of the action from the first film into the second film. For example, add the Barrow Wright back into Fellowship, and have Film 1 end at the climactic events at Moria, which would be a climactic end for the film, with Gandalf falling, etc. Then TTT starts with the whole Lothlorien thing, the fall of Boromir, etc. This way Film 1 would not have been so rushed, and TTT would have enough stuff that they would not have to go "making up new scenes to fill it up." Indeed, they seem to be removing all the action from TTT. They have already taken scenes from TTT and shifted them into Film 1 (Death of Boromir, etc), plus they are taking Shelob out of TTT and shifting her into film 3. No wonder "there is not enough stuff in TTT to make a film." What are they thinking? And then they claim that there is "no time in Rotk to add the scouring of the shire." Well folks, if you would keep Shelob in TTT, then maybe there *would* be an extra 10 minutes in rotk to present the scouring. (Apparently math is not their specialty). People fell in love with the Shire in Film 1, and I don't think the audience will walk out of rotk feeling satisfied unless they get to see that the Shire is in peace, especially after having seen the spooky business in Galadriel's Mirror. The Mirror scene does not eliminate the need for the Scouring, rather it makes the Scouring scene all the more necessary, since now everyone is all the more concerned about the fate of the Shire. *** The only reason I can imagine for them taking Shelob out of TTT is that Weta was not able to make the deadline. I am forced to conclude that Weta said, sorry, Shelob will not be done in time. Otherwise, these decisions about editing make no sense: shifting material out of TTT into films 1 and 3, and then claiming that TTT "does not have enough material for a film," meanwhile films 1 and 3 become so crowded that everything is rushed and key scenes are dropped. Makes no sense, I say.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 4:45 p.m. CST

    Re: Gandalf's humility

    by Gjakked77

    The answer to these questions about why Gandalf doesn't just blast his way through opposing forces is: he does not command that power. The Istari were granted a certain measure of strength by the Valar, and it was only to be used for certain purposes. Note that every time Gandalf performs an even moderate magical feat he feels drained. Even later on as the reincarnated White when he sends "a flash of white light" against the Nazgul on the Pelennor Fields, he returns appearing as if his "fire was spent". Besides, if all the Istari had this incredible power and could use it at their whim, why didn't Saruman do so for his evil intentions while he was the White? "Magic" is cast with the blessing and approval of the Valar.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 4:53 p.m. CST

    Or Maybe......

    by spideyman1218

    BECAUSE IT MADE A KICKASS CONFRONTATION THAT LEFT THE ENTIRE THEATER SPEECHLESS AND MY HEART POUNDING

  • you big idiot! Fellowship's pacing is waaaaay off from the book's! you've already disrupted the flow of the series, why give up now!

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:03 p.m. CST

    Humble Gandalf

    by Roosterbooster

    Why didn't Gandalf use magic against the orcs in Moria? Well, every use of magic tires him and there was as yet no need for it since he had some formidable foot-soldiers in Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli. Besides, he's pretty handy with Orcrist himself. Best to keep the magic as a last resort. This is more obvious in the book, in which the Balrog's counter-spell almost broke him. The bridge scene is fine by me, though more for dramatic reasons than anything else, holding a narrow place against a superior enemy is a mythopaeic action in western history and legend, evoking the Spartans at Thermopylae or Roland at Roncevaux. It's just so bloody cool.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:05 p.m. CST

    Action in TTT

    by wilko185

    If you want action, expect to see the ents destroying Isengard in great detail, and a huge showdown with Saruman. It was foreshadowed plenty enough in FOTR. Oh, and Helms Deep etc _________ Smakamoto said "They gotta fix this one. For those of you who think otherwise either you seriously havent read the books (maybe you cant read) or you just dont understand how plot devices, storlines, and scriptwriting work." ____ Anyone who has an opinion on this obviously *has* read the books, or they would neither know nor care what you're talking about. I suspect the people making the film understand plot devices and storylines perfectly well, so I suggest they are making changes because either (A) they think it will improve the story, cinematically speaking (B) time/money constraints (the sfx on Shelob aren't done) or (C) they are ruining LOTR for a laugh. If you think it's actually "(D) they don't know what they're doing", show me your script for LOTR, and when I've seen PJ's version, I'll let you know whose story was better. How's that? And if your script treatment is "see the book", then "you just dont understand how plot devices, storylines, and scriptwriting work". _______ For myself, I'm reserving judgement, but I can see some possible good reasons for why PJ's changing things round.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:05 p.m. CST

    Thank you RoosterBooster

    by spideyman1218

    Why did King Kong climb to the top of the Empire State Building? For a cool climax. Why did Gandalf face the Balrog? So we could A) have a GREAT emotional scene and B) see his power.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:15 p.m. CST

    I suggest once more - READ APPENDIX B!

    by Ioreth

    specifically the days March there ... (around p. 1130 in a one-volume-edition like mine) ... :) :) :)

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:21 p.m. CST

    RE: wilko185

    by Smakamoto

    How do you breath with your head so far up PJs ass. Actually i never said i was looking for action. What I am looking for is the incredible drama that comes after the shelob confrontation and would most undoubtably make for one hell of a killer cliffhanger as it did when I read the book. You on the other hand are looking for a fight. And "you got one coming...coming today." Ill see you at the OK corral. I never said I don't think PJ has the skills. I loved the first but I dont see how you could have read the book and honestly think this change will be good.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:26 p.m. CST

    foretelling

    by Gjakked77

    as far as all this hoo-ha about moving Shelob to the 3rd film, I have to go along with the majority and say that the cliffhangar as written has "masterful cinematography" plastered all over it. I'm very concerned about this: what an incredible ending for TTT to have Sam hurl himself against the doors, fall backward, and then the doors close, shutting out all light with a massive BOOM, and then the credits roll. Can't say I know what PJ has up his sleeve for this one. My intuition says he's a clever enough guy to know an awesome ending when he sees one. Consider that the ending for the FOTR was actually an improvement, cinematically speaking. Interestingly enough, I called that shot being made the day I heard the movie was being made, so let's see if I get lucky and am right about TTT ending as well. How about this: the army from Imlad Morgul marching down the valley and over the bridge to lay siege to Minas Tirith? Frodo looks on, hope wilting in his heart? This is my guess, but given the number of times FOTR surprised me, there's no telling what PJ's up to. (PS. I rather like this morGoth character; you obviously know yo' shit)

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:42 p.m. CST

    No one can refute the Humility of Gandalf!

    by Smakamoto

    Gandalf we love you and your humbleness. There's no need to show your powers. We trust you kind sir.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    Newsflash: (spoiler)

    by DufusyteII

    Newsflash: the destruction of the Ring in Mount Doom will not be in Rotk. They are, however, writing fresh new scenes not in the book to flesh out the relationship between the Oliphant Driver and his Oliphant, as well as creating an entirely new character who "hatches" from a coconut. "With all the new material - things you weren't expecting to see - we found that there really wasn't any room to include the Mt. Doom scenes. We also felt it would break the flow."

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:46 p.m. CST

    Wilko185, you should look to Gandalf for guidance.

    by Smakamoto

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Having Sam and Frodo watch the Witch-King lef army marching unde

    by Brian 2000

    The ending to the Fellowship is PERFECT - Sam and Frodo look over and see Mordor - there path is in front of them and now it is time to take it. There is no cheap shot of Gollum running behind them thrown in there to make the audience gasp, it is just perfect. Now lets see - some people are speculating the ending of TTT will show Frodo and Sam watching the Witch King led army passing by them as they themselves prepare to walk towards Cirith Ungol and into the last leg of their journey - their fate uncertain, but by gum they sure have hope! Well if that isnt the same ending as FotR then call me an idiot! The ending for Fellowship was no major cliffhanger it was just what it needed to be - it was true to the story. TTT needs to end with complete uncertainty and chaos. Frodo is dead and Sam takes the ring to finish the job - but wait Frodo is alive and taken by the enemy! How the hell will they get out of it? Will Frodo be tortured to death, and/or will Sam be caught? Audience reaction: Good God tell me! Show me THE FUCKING RETURN OF THE KING RIGHT NOW!!! GOD - FUCKING - DAMN - IT - YOU - HOLLYWOOD - PEICES - OF - SHIT! Aw hell, I'll read the book! Or how about this ending - Frodo and Sam look over and see the army passing - Frodo: I hope we can destroy the ring before the others need meet that army. Sam: We may yet Mr.Frodo, We may. Pan out. Sam and Frodo walk towards Shelob's Lair. Audience reaction: Intriguing, hmm...I wonder what happens, oh damn I've got to wait a year. Okay I can do that. There is no way for Peter to match the pure emotion involved in the ending of the book. Not to mention follow the story arc of Sam and Frodo correctly. It must be in Part II of the story that Sam makes this decision to take the ring over burying his masters seemingly dead body. It is absolutely essential. Now I am worried that PJ is more interested in developing the human story (which is why Faramir's increased role worries me) then the story of the hobbits. And guess what? If Frodo and Sam fail then anything the other group does is USELESS. The whole Gandalf/Aragorn/Gondor war at the end is one huuuuuuge balk. The hobbits are the story, and without Shelob (whether they are well developed or not) they get the shaft.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 5:51 p.m. CST

    Dustyfunnytail ,that is some funny shit.

    by Smakamoto

    The oliphaunt driver, I hope they get Bill Murray to play him. Good Luck.

  • <sigh> I&#39;m really not in a fighting mood. Why should I look to Gandalf for guidance? For humility? Or am I going on a journey to a dark land far away?? __________ I guessed you weren&#39;t looking for "action" (so to speak) in TT. Sorry if I confused you by including 2 comments in one post: a general comment, then a __________, then I addressed you. OK? I&#39;ll try and introduce another pseudo-paragraph break here: _____________ If you read my post, you&#39;ll see I&#39;m reserving judgement, and not condemning PJ a few hours after hearing one bare fact. If the reason for Shelob&#39;s postponement is due to the effects not being ready, rather than artisitic ones, than I won&#39;t be pleased. If, however, PJ and co. really think it will work better this way, then I&#39;ll respect their opinion, at least until I see the film (they earned that respect with the first film). As to what his reasons may be, I came up with one earlier, which I&#39;ll repeat: What PJ may be thinking is, it&#39;s better to keep all the Mordor and Pelennor Fields events in one film (RoTK). Which will be a very dark film if he includes the "darkness of Mordor", and which will be thematically different from the generally green and sunny Ithilien and Rohan sections of TTT (Helm&#39;s Deep and the Dead Marshes notwithstanding). So we will see the Morgul army leaving Minas Morgul at the start of RoTK, where it makes sense, for example, and the two films will be more slightly more "self-contained". I suspect Ithilien will be built up a lot from the book, and the taming of Smeagol, the battle with the Southrons, Faramir&#39;s handling of the temptation of the Ring will all be more "dramatic". Having seen what PJ did with Boromir&#39;s character in FOTR, I have no problem with more of the same (but different, of course) from Faramir. Could the climax of the Frodo strand of the story be Farmir&#39;s struggle with, and ultimate rejection of, the Ring? Other ideas may occur, or we just may have to wait and see.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 6:02 p.m. CST

    Don&#39;t spit into the wind

    by Messyjoe

    Yes it is normally futile to think that all this bitching will have any effect on the powers that be. DUFUSYTELL above is a wise hobbit. The flow is wrong with PJ&#39;s planned cutting. But if anybody is still reading this far down, think of it this way. If Shelob is in ROTHK at least we get to see her. For me the bitch is Gollum. I know he&#39;s needed for the ending but up to that point I don&#39;t want to see much of him. If Jackson end ROTHK with the expected melancholy Grey Havens exit, it will have probably produced a sufficiently dramatic finish to be a good ending, even if the Scouring is missing.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 6:02 p.m. CST

    Kubla21

    by Darth Melkor

    I agree completely. I&#39;m not going to pay to see this movie again when I can go see Blade II or ET Anniversary Edition, which also opens on the 22nd. Plus, I&#39;m sure this footage from TTT will be available for viewing to everyone shortly after it&#39;s theatrical release. They can&#39;t keep it away from us. Remember the DVD exclusive AOTC trailer that you had to have a DVD ROM to see? Well it was all over the net 10 minutes after it&#39;s release. Same thing here I&#39;m thinking.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 6:26 p.m. CST

    more verbal abuse for Wilko

    by Smakamoto

    Easy tiger, Im not trying to persuade you, I&#39;m merely stating my opinion. If you read what Ive written thusfar then you should know I&#39;m willing to give PJ the benefit of the doubt as well. Your arguments for shelob and the choices of samwise in ROTK are not strong enough in my mind to take away such a powerful ending in the two towers. And that my friend , my so called friend, is the whole point.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 6:59 p.m. CST

    My argument wasn&#39;t very convincing to me either, to be hones

    by wilko185

    just one possible advantage. But I haven&#39;t sat down and tried to fit the story to 3 3-hour film scripts. There may be other benefits to switching things round that I haven&#39;t yet realised. Give me a few days ;-). I&#39;m sure other people will have more insight than me, anyway.... and maybe see what reasons are given by PJ. I doubt he&#39;ll remain silent on an issue like this for 10 months. <shrug> If you take the long-term view, that PJ is making a 9 hour DVD special, none of this really matters.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Climax

    by Jack Ryder

    Dose anyone here remember that FOTR didn&#39;t really have a climax ending &#39;till PJ gave it one by using T2T stuff? I don&#39;t see how most of the people here love FOTR and still have no faith that T2T will be any good. I guess it&#39;s just to hard for the people on this board to be positive about any thing. and MAYBE the endings similar , but without Shelob so frodo can still be "dead" and sam can still have his moment.I was pretty much expecting losing the Scouring as it&#39;s slow and is really good in a book,but will ruin the climax of a movie.just picture it , Saurons gone,Frodo & Sam are saved and Aragorn is king! now hang on for another half hour or so so we can tell you this little fable. it would be like placing the Ewok adventure to the end of Jedi. and the preview footage being added to FOTR is great ! I was planning on seeing it one more time anyways .and they are planning on expanding it&#39;s release after the Oscars. and as far as Star Wars & Spider-Man news , I think short of seeing the movies , we&#39;ve seen probably too much already.especially Spidy , I feel like there&#39;s not much left to see when the movie comes out .

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Gotcha.....Premature Ejaculators Club

    by DrKodos

    could be just one big Gotcha; getting all the bees in the hive to start buzzing the way you people have....I seem to remember many a Red Herring coming our way regarding the Fellowship. How any of you can take any of this to the bank at this point reminds me of people spewing on her thigh before entry.....Methinks the idiot doth protest too much....

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Works for me

    by Drak_Tanner

    Consider the "cool creature factor". *** In FOTR, we see for the first time: Sauron (in two forms), nine Ringwraiths, the Watcher in the Water, the cave troll, the Balrog, armies of orcs, and a lot of Uruk-Hai. *** In TTT, we are introduced to: the nine Nazgul steeds, the race of Ents, and Gollum in the light of day, plus more of Sauron, and a ton more Uruk-Hai and orcs. TTT is sufficiently crowded already with creature effects. *** So that leaves some new stuff for ROTK: Shelob, the Eagles in all their glory, the Dead Men of the White Mountains, a butt-load of another breed of trolls, and perhaps a new form for Sauron (!), plus more orcs and Uruk-Hai, more of Gollum and the Eye of Sauron, and the Nine again. With Shelob in ROTK, the burden of creature distribution is a bit more evenly balanced. Plus there&#39;s the very good point that the confrontation with Shelob actually takes place while Aragorn, et al., are walking the Paths of the Dead, so PJ IS ACTUALLY KEEPING THE CHRONOLOGY INTACT BY MOVING SHELOB.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 8:42 p.m. CST

    I am a born again WHIINNER(oh and you said it Westrum!)

    by Orangeblossom

    I don&#39; t know how to solve that DVD problem myself. I guess I&#39;ll just give in and buy both. Either that or rent it to death. Hmmmmmmm Oh and about what I said earlier about the Shelob thing......I have officially become a whiiinnnner:I WANT MY SHELOB! I WANT MY SHELOBEE-CAKES! WAAAAHHHHHHHH!*ahem* sorry! However. Taking out the scouring of the shire is a good idea still! But I just realized also that it is too bad that Shelob won&#39;t be in TTT because those who haven&#39;t read the books won&#39;t suffer....OR....WILL THEY?*kakkles evily*(um did I spell that right? YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT OL&#39; PETE HAS UP HIS SLEEVE!^_^ RIGHT???? O_O?

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 9:48 p.m. CST

    me again

    by Gjakked77

    someone was commenting how weak my forecast ending for TTT was compared with the original. I ask you to please read a bit more carefully: you will note I labelled the original ending as "masterful", both cinematically, and as a novel. I am in thorough agreement that the written ending would be amazing and is quite possibly the best ending to part II that could ever be. I stated this in my posting. The reason I posted at all, however, was to not waste people&#39;s time and restate the obvious: YES, Tolkien&#39;s ending to TTT seems (to me certainly) to be the perfect ending for both book and movie. BUT SINCE WE KNOW THAT THE MOVIE ISN&#39;T ENDING THAT WAY, my point was to take a stab at what MIGHT be the ending, not what SHOULD be. I was just speculating that, since I precisely predicted the ending of FOTR, that maybe I could guess what was up with tossing aside the brilliant ending written into TTT. Please read more carefully in the future. I just consider it pointless to merely complain about something that&#39;s beyond our control anyway. I&#39;d rather step beyond the complaining and hit the thinking stage a bit. But if I wasn&#39;t clear before, how&#39;s this: I THINK TOLKIEN&#39;S ENDING WOULD BE INCREDIBLE AND IS QUITE PROBABLY FAR BETTER THAN WHATEVER&#39;S LINED UP NOW FOR THE MOVIE. Hopefully that&#39;s plain enough. But getting past that, what do you suppose this evidently gifted director has up his sleeve?? Does he have something in mind to try and one-up the Author himself??? Doubtful, but let&#39;s not forget the ingenious blending of the two chapters that ended the first movie. Here is a man who knows what he&#39;s doing. Let&#39;s just hope he&#39;s good enough to know when something simply CAN&#39;T be improved upon...

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:11 p.m. CST

    Translations

    by Darth Melkor

    I personally believe that Peter Jackson should have a responsibility to make this as accurate to the books as possible. Just cause he has a little piece of paper saying he can make a movie doesn&#39;t give him the right to alter Tolkien&#39;s work. It&#39;s Tolkien&#39;s not Jackson&#39;s. And sure a lot of book to movie translations are changed, Jurassic Park, The Shining and so on.... but this is LOTR. It&#39;s more than just a book and you don&#39;t mess with that. I do also think that anyone who calls themselves a fan is kidding themselves if they&#39;ve never read the book. It&#39;s a book, not a movie and will always be so to me. The book is the true story.. the movie is just a blurred retelling. Those who go by the movies and not the books have no clue who Tom Bombadil is or Farmer Maggot or the Barrow-wights or Glorifindel. They don&#39;t realize that the Ringwraiths use their sense of smell to search for the hobbits. How about Caradhras? They were forced of the mountain because the mountain itself refused to let them pass. Saruman did not cause lightning which struck the peak causing an avalanche. Now this Shelob revelation... it won&#39;t matter to people who&#39;ve never read the book, but will to the true fans and that&#39;s unfortunate. Seems that those who have been faithful before the movies are the ones who will suffer the most, while casual movie goers won&#39;t know any difference. I could go on and on but why bother. Goodbye.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:33 p.m. CST

    Shelob not in TTT?

    by hildebrand

    First, to Dorante, there is no binding contract to present the book as the book unfolds. Check out most film versions of Hamlet and you will see that changes and alterations happen when one translates a piece of literature to the screen. And, if that can be done to Shakespeare, it can be done to Tolkien. It is a wonderful work, but lighten up a bit. You are starting to sound like the fundamentalists and the like whenever a movie is based on Christianity. Gads, remember the ruckus over the Last Temtptation of Christ? Eeek. To bad, they missed a very good exploration of the two natures of Christ. Good stuff, and they missed it because they were pissing on and on about the fact that the movie rearranged the ideas. Open the mind a little bit and allow for another&#39;s interpretation of the text. That is the joy of literature (and religious faith). Second, about Shelob not being in TTT. That will be fine with me regardless of how it plays out becuase of the timing issues already mentioned in this Talkback. But I have a question: Simply because Mr. Jackson has said that Shelob is not in the second movie does not mean that she may not be there, eh? Remember in the book, she is not revealed right away. Perhaps we will get the hint of her whether we see her or not. Just a thought. Good discussion thus far, and a minimum of trolling, a nice change of pace.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 10:51 p.m. CST

    ..............idiots

    by Dumb-Fokker-**

    Ok, so TT ends with a perfect cliff-ending, but if PJ keeps it in TT, not only does he fuck up the time-cycle, but he also fucks up the opening of RotK. It doesnt make sense to have RotK open on Sam rescuing Frodo, because the audiences emotional attachment to the characters wont be as strong as it has to be, to make this scene emotionally powerful. So pretty much, for all the idoots out there who dont understand; Good TT ending (with Shelob) = shitty RotK opening.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 11:42 p.m. CST

    But...

    by MikeSal222

    Yeah, and bad TTT ending = good ROTK beginning. A strong ending is more important than a strong opening. But, I&#39;m not going to bash PJ just yet, since we have no idea how he plans to end TTT. I&#39;ll reserve all bashing until after I&#39;ve seen the movie. Hopefully the director&#39;s cut of FOTR in November will put me in a good mood for TTT.

  • Feb. 23, 2002, 11:53 p.m. CST

    2 DVD&#39;s and other issues

    by Billy Talent

    Well, there seems to be some bad mojo in the room, so I won&#39;t get into that. I didn&#39;t love &#39;FotR&#39;, I can wait for the next movie, but that&#39;s not the point. Coppola wants to take the original &#39;Apocalypse Now&#39; off the shelves and replace it permanently with the inferior &#39;Redux&#39;, Lucas has done the same with the original &#39;Star Wars&#39; trilogy, Scott keeps fucking with &#39;Blade Runner&#39;. I&#39;m not his biggest admirer but I&#39;d at least give Jackson credit for offering a choice, as I&#39;m sure many fans will much prefer the theatrical cut to the special edition. On another note, when is Moriarity going to review the &#39;Attack of the Clones&#39; script? Oh yeah, and I haven&#39;t read the books. Just out of curiosity, does the ring do anything besides render the wearer invisible? That&#39;s a neat trick to be certain but it hardly seems worthy of all the fuss. Also, why did the last twenty or so minutes of &#39;Fellowship&#39; look so much like &#39;Battlefield Earth&#39;?

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 12:30 a.m. CST

    what about Blade 2?

    by Joey Jojo

    ok, I didnt read through all the other talkbacks before this so I dont know if anyone mentioned it yet, but doesnt it seem like New Line is shooting themselves in the foot by putting the Two Towers trailer out on the same day that Blade 2 arrives? Why would you force people to choose that weekend - I hope they dont think most people (besides the die-hard fans) are going to go see both. I would think someone over there would be smart enough to realize that the fanbase for these movies are somewhat similar and you dont want to dilute your box office numbers on either one by putting them in direct competition that same weekend. To quote the greatest television show ever: "Boy I sure hope someone got fired for that blunder."

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 12:35 a.m. CST

    no buts

    by Dumb-Fokker-**

    There are a number of places PJ could end TT and still have a very effective ending. He could show a scene with Gollum by himself, saying something about "her" (Sheolb), and than show him leading the hobbits into her cave, while at the same time Pippin and Gandalf ride off to Minas Tirith. Have a whole "characters riding off to death and danger" type ending.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 12:36 a.m. CST

    DVD and ending

    by Quealis

    I can&#39;t figure out why some of you are upset about the releasing two versions of the DVD. If it was some kind of "evil" marketing plan then New Line would not have let us know that there is going to be two versions. Don&#39;t forget that Shore is creating new music for the cut part. This is not to mention that Jackson still needs to edit those parts back into the film. The actors may also be needed to do voice over work on the scenes as well. They will need the extra time for the full version as padding to finish the work. The earlier release will be for the rental market. As for people that are bitching about the possibility of Shelob being moved to Return of the King: The ending of The Two Towers was relatively arbitrary anyway (as is the ending for Fellowship of the Ring). As most of you probably know the three books where actually meant to be one, but the publisher didn&#39;t have the nuts to release it as such. I don&#39;t know why you complainers are worried anyway. Jackson and company have already proven that they can do right by Tolkien&#39;s work. In the end I feel that most people will watch all three movies as one anyway. I swear some of you people would bitch if you where going out with a model with a good personallity, and his/her hair color (or some lame detail like that) didn&#39;t quite match your preference.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 2:08 a.m. CST

    Shelob, Scourings and DVD&#39;s Oh My!

    by alpha

    Ok people seem to have a problem with the moving of Shelob but I agree with it for 2 reasons 1) timeline wise it fits better in ROTK 2) How many times does Frodo almost die? In FOTR he gets stabbed by the Rider, seems to die at the rivers edge and then there is the Troll. In the books it doesn&#39;t seem repetetive but in the film it did. Ending the 2nd film with his death followed by the standard, oh look he&#39;s miraculously alive at the beginning of 3 might feel a little like a cheat. In ROTK. wont come as close in the memory as the times in FOTR. As for the Scouring, as much as I like it its a bit like Tom Bombadil, Barrow Wights, Old Man Willow from FOTR ... not vital for the central narrative flow of the storyline and potentially distracting in a already long film. As for the DVD&#39;s, why are people complaining, for once they are letting everyone know early that there are multiple versions and that the 2 versions will in fact be different cuts of the film. For completists this means they get 2 different versions for people who just want one they can make a choice between a long or short version. It was good to see PJ supporting the SW franchise since we all know that without Star Wars he would never have got this project off the ground. Star Wars opened the door and gave New Line the ability to believe that a big epic Fantasy storyline could be worth such a massive investment. If only Lucas could understand that he is a great ideas man but a relatively poor scriptwriter and let his baby be written by someone with a better sense of character and pacing. I think even the hardest core SW fan agrees that the actual scripts are full of brilliant ideas that could of been done better if filtered through someone who could write better dialogue. Lets hope that the next SW will follow the trend of the first trilogy. Oh and Spiderman should be very cool.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 3:11 a.m. CST

    Elanor I wish I had your patience

    by wilko185

    Let the TB run for a day, read through it all, then in a calm and measured tone compose a huge post and kick collective ass :-). Oh, and I was kidding about the spoilers, of course. Even if you&#39;d taken some "total no-spoiler vow" I&#39;d expect you to break it for something like that (and I&#39;m not jealous, oh no ;-)) _________ I&#39;m probably deluding myself here, but the more I think about it, the more I don&#39;t really think moving Shelob will hurt the films too much. Maybe because I never saw it as "the end" of the book, as I always read straight through. Of course, it&#39;s only in Book VI we get back to Sam, but I can&#39;t remember really when it was a "cliffhanger" for me. Not breaking up the Cirith Ungol sequence between the films will unavoidably give a lower-key ending to TT (unless PJ&#39;s getting *really* inventive) but it will help the start of RoTK, as people have pointed out. Having Sam start the film in the thick of the action and Frodo captured seems like starting in the middle of a scene. I expect heavy foreshadowing of Gollum&#39;s treachery towards the end of TT though. Rather than have Slinker change to Stinker all in RoTK, Sam (and Faramir) should be suspicious of Gollum&#39;s motives. But I believe we already know from PJ and Andy Serkis this type of development is giong to happen. _______ Btw, do those pictures of Christopher Lee remind you of anyone? (Particularly the second-last one). Like this guy? http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/e/dejong/tolktweaked.jpg.html

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 4:35 a.m. CST

    I&#39;ve Figured Out How TTT Ends (I Think)

    by emvan

    SPOILERS, OF COURSE . . . Obviously they&#39;ve cooked up something sufficiently dramatic for an ending, something they feel is so good that Shelob can be kept in the right chronological place in the story and hence moved to ROTK. So what could that be? In the Western storyline, it&#39;s pretty obvious. I think Aragorn and Co. entering the Paths of the Dead will be enough of a cliff-hanger to give us momentum into ROTK; all P.J. has to do is play up the terror of the dead and Eowyn&#39;s certainty that they&#39;re doomed. They go into the hole, the dead start to follow and surround them, CUT to finish off the Frodo storyline. But what will that be? PJ talks about lots of Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, and lots of Faramir. And lots of surprising character development. O.K., the climax involving the four of them, which happens at the exact same time Aragorn enters the Paths, is the already reasonably dramatic bit about Faramir deciding whether Gollum lives or dies, where this depends on his relationship to Frodo. A lot of what PJ has done so successfully in FOTR is to externalize what&#39;s internal. So you can bet that there&#39;s a *very* dramatic bit at the end of the movie, where essentially Frodo *saves Gollum&#39;s life* from the hands of Faramir&#39;s men. It&#39;ll be true to the book, only it won&#39;t come about as part of just a *conversation* between the three or four of them, or idly observing Gollum catching fish, like in the book; there&#39;ll be some action, perhaps heart-stopping action. You could get some really, really interesting character stuff here, too: e.g., what if *Sam* is forced to act to save Gollum, out of loyalty to Frodo? And of course there could be a little bit of a cliff-hanger here, too, nature unknown. The whole storyline has potential that Tolkien never tapped, which I think is a credit to the original conceptions, and to PJ & Co.&#39;s willingness to read more into the story (as they did with the Aragorn / Boromir relationship). I&#39;m beginning to think that PJ is even more of a genius than we realize . . . FOTR was linear and almost all action; TTT will surprise folks with its intermeshed plots and its being *much* more character-driven; and then ROTK will meld both approaches in a real mind-blower. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, the pyre of Denethor, and the escape of Frodo and Sam from the tower of Cirith Ungol (sure to be more dramatic than in the book -- I doubt PJ will have all the orcs dead, that&#39;d be too easy!), all simultaneous and intercut -- I don&#39;t think people will be able to stand it! _____________BTW, the one other thing I think you&#39;ll see added to TTT is something dramatic at the Gates of Mordor that leads them to decide to head south. Simply looking at the Gates and deciding they can&#39;t get through doesn&#39;t cut it. I&#39;m going to guess a close call with the flying Nazgul (elaborating on the books, where there are several Nazgul flyovers). And of course we know that Arwen will show up along with / instead of the Dunedain, carrying both the flag of Gondor and Anduril reforged. And I expect scenes of her with Elrond and/or Galadriel. Man, it&#39;ll *really* break Eowyn&#39;s heart when, after Helm&#39;s Deep, Aragorn comes back with Arwen beside him -- that&#39;s going to make that storyline much morre powerful. Add that to the Emyn Muil, the taming of Smeagol, the Dead Marshes, the Ents, the healing of Theoden, the battle of Helm&#39;s Deep, the destruction of Isengard, and the satisfying death of Saruman . . . I think PJ was being just a *wee* bit disingenuous when he said there wasn&#39;t enough in TTT to fill a movie. It&#39;ll be a hell of a flick, and we&#39;re not going to miss Shelob at all!

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 5:17 a.m. CST

    Emvan, about the TT climax

    by wilko185

    I agree the Frodo strand will involve Faramir heavily, but I see the crux being the Ring, rather than Gollum, as it has been throughout the story so far. (That repeated motif of the Ring in Frodo&#39;s hand, it isn&#39;t redundant, it&#39;s making a point. The Ring is an ever present factor in everything that happens). With the contrast between Faramir and his brother&#39;s handling of the Ring situation (and the added factor of finding out about his brother&#39;s death, partly Frodo&#39;s fault, and also his suspicions of Gollum), it should be interesting, whichever way PJ plays it out. It&#39;s possible the climax of the other strand may be Saruman&#39;s death, with Aragorn setting out on the Paths of the Dead shortly thereafter, perhaps, though I agree it should be built up more, with Aragorn looking in the palantir and seeing why he has to take that road, and the whole Arwen/Eowyn thing, then setting off into the darkness. BTW, I like the idea of the "darkness of Mordor" marking the passage to RoTK. Frodo should set off into the gathering gloom at the end of his arc in TTT as well IMO.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 5:20 a.m. CST

    Now it&#39;s my turn to consider "WHY DOESN&#39;T GANDALF TAKE F

    by wilko185

    Maybe it&#39;s in the opposite direction to Isengard. The hobbits are just a couple of days from Bree, so Gandalf says "You set off, I&#39;ll be back from meeting my superiour soon and meet you in the Inn at Bree. We better get moving on this Frodo." What&#39;s that, you say? Look at the map, I&#39;m talking rubbish? Well the map in the movie whooshed past far too quickly to make out, and as pointed out, the movie is not the book, it stands on its own two feet by its own internal logic yadda yadda. Non-readers have advantage here, I think, an unfettered freedom to assume certain things and suspend disbelief, instead of picking holes with the book in one hand. "Why doesn&#39;t-" sorry, I mean, "WHY DOESN&#39;T GANDALF USE HIS MAGIC MORE?" Maybe he&#39;s saving himself. He suspects he&#39;ll run into some big bad monster in Moria, and he&#39;ll need every ounce of his strength. What? Gandalf didn&#39;t know the Balrog was there in the book? Well he seems to in the film, according to Saruman.... and so on. You get the idea. ____________ Re the DVD, what do want exactly, Ryalto? The extended version obviously isn&#39;t ready. People will want to see FOTR on DVD soon. I think the packaging of the first DVD won&#39;t lie about the contents, and when people see a stripped down release of a major film soon after it&#39;s been in theatres they should perhaps expect a souped-up version is coming later (even if there&#39;s no ad for the later version on the packaging). New Line are already telling people about the upcoming release of the better version. Hmmm, how about they start running adverts saying "Don&#39;t buy the FOTR DVD, we have a more expensive version coming out soon!", would that help? ________ Ryalto, you seem bent on seeing the negative here. For instance, this is rather a gloomy outlook: "I can&#39;t think of a single change PJ made that was better than what tolkien originally had to begin with" So you&#39;d have filmed the book as is? But, as you say, "I guess he had to do that [change] cause there&#39;s so much story to tell" So you admit Tolkien&#39;s story had to be changed to make a good film, as some things in the book wouldn&#39;t have worked on film. Because a book isn&#39;t a film (I have to say that quite a lot in these discussions). Was the prologue worse than sitting through the Shadow of the Past and the Council of Elrond would have been? Of course not, dramatization is a necessary change. Was the idea of replacing Glorfindel with Arwen an improvement? Yes, IMO. Reduce superfluous characters, introduce a necessary one in a role taken from the book. She stole Frodo&#39;s thunder at the Ford too much for my liking, but the idea was 100% sound, even if I quibble with the execution. Another thing better in film than book: the character of Boromir, fairly consistently throughout the story. But I&#39;m bored talking of FOTR, I&#39;ve been doing it for months now. Suffice to say, based on Film 1, Films 2 and 3 will be interesting, with a fair chance of delighting and disappointing me by turns. We&#39;ll see.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 5:53 a.m. CST

    Fleshing out the right flesh.

    by DufusyteII

    Elanor, now that you are famous will you still hang out with us? Sorry I didn&#39;t cook up a long post on the essense of Tolkien, but I&#39;ve said my peace on the scouring many times before. As for Jarwen, I believe that all the fan reaction and our little posts were actually quite a worthwhile thing, because ultimately Arwen was presented in a befittingly lady-like fashion. She is very good in Fellowship. Let&#39;s hope she doesn&#39;t go an a killing spree in TTT and Rotk. *** If they are creating new scenes for TTT, then how about creating lots of Arwen-Elrond and Arwen-Galadriel and Arwen-ElvenSuitor scenes. This would enhance the Chick-Flick element, add some nice drama/melodrama, flesh out the Arwen/Aragorn love relationship even when they are apart, and it would give the guys more opportunities to feast their eyes on Liv. If your gonna flesh something out, flesh out Liv, since she has the nicest flesh. Instead, PJ is fleshing out the "Sam, Frodo, Faramir relationship" and the "Gollum, Toadstool relationship (or something)." -->BORING<--. I dare say, PJ is a guy who makes films for guys. His main theme has been guy-guy friendship relationships. He should hire some chick flick writer person to create some mushy melodrama for Arwen while she pines away for her distant hero. I do not believe Walsh nor Boyens could write such a scene, because they seem to think that girls need to chop heads in order not to be a cipher (Boyens actually said this, in so many words). They would probably croak if Arwen actually pined for her far away hero. *** Tonight I talked with a girl who said she did not see Fellowship because she did not think it would have enough appeal to a girl like herself. I told her that PJ had expanded Arwen&#39;s role just for her, but she still was not convinced. See PJ: you need to create even more Arwen scenes to bring this girl into the theater. And she says she wants mushy scenes, not scenes of Arwen hacking some orc.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 6:15 a.m. CST

    Mush

    by wilko185

    "His main theme has been guy-guy friendship relationships." Really Dufusyte? But how, considering the chick-heavy source material, did he mange this testoterone-fest? Or did you mean PJ&#39;s work in general? Well Braindead was a romantic comedy about an overbearing mother trying to break up her son&#39;s relationship with his girlfriend, Heavenly Creatures was hardly full of guy-guy relationships.......

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 9:31 a.m. CST

    New scenes

    by Caine

    I hope that two scenes ar included in this extra footage. Specifically, Galadriel&#39;s gift to Gimli (A lock of her hair, because she was more beautiful and otherworldy than anything he had ever known existed, etc etc etc) and something that establishes the 17 year difference that took place between Bilbo&#39;s leaving the shire, and Gandlaf&#39;s return that sent Frodo and Samwise on their way. Just my little nit-picks, I know. The latter would give the film a much-needed sense of time (it all does look like it happens awfully fast), while the former would directly establish some of the emnity between Eomer and Gimli, as well as establishes the friendship between Gimli and Legolas, which does feature rather prominently in TTT. ***** But as with many of my psotst, that is just MY opinion...

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 12:17 p.m. CST

    Wilko, I Think We&#39;re Both Right

    by emvan

    ITA that the Ring should be central to the climax of the Faramir and Frodo story. But at the same time, to simply repeat the end of FOTR with a reversal of the outcome would be lame. So that was a second problem -- if I were PJ I would feel a need to do something that makes this situation *more complex* somehow than the Boromir temptation, if indeed I&#39;m going to be playing it up (I was originally guessing they&#39;d play it down, for the same reason). I mean, how many of these "good guy / gal is tempted by the Ring" scenes can we see before they get old? Yet such a scene *with a twist* would be a kick. So, that&#39;s where I think the storyline involving Gollum&#39;s life can play a big part. They somehow need to integrate that with Faramir&#39;s refusal of the Ring -- which in the book are completely separate. __________Here&#39;s what I&#39;ve come up with, and it ROCKS. They&#39;ve already cut the rhymed prophecy from FOTR without it being missed, so they&#39;re not going to reintroduce it now. So, as in the book, Faramir senses that Frodo and Boromir parted on very bad terms, but, unlike the book, he is clueless as to why; there&#39;s no "Isildur&#39;s Bane" for him to think about. And he absolutely plans to take Frodo back with him to Gondor. Frodo is in the completely horrible position of needing to tell Faramir about the Quest but being terrified that Faramir will respond exactly like his brother. Now, Gollum enters the scenario and Faramir has a second mystery: why Frodo insists on sparing the life of this mysterious and pitiful excuse for a living creature (in the book, of course, Faramir knows about the Ring before he has to deal with Gollum). This mystery may even strengthen Faramir&#39;s resolve to take Frodo back to Gondor. Now, in the book, Sam blurts out that "Isildur&#39;s Bane" was the Ring, but we&#39;ve cut that back story and of course it&#39;s not dramatic at all. In a book, characters talk about things, in a movie, whenever possible they should see them. So, at the height of the action involving the four of them (which may well involve at attempt by Frodo and a very reluctant Sam to stop, by force, Faramir&#39;s execution of Gollum), *Faramir sees the Ring* (and it has to be Gollum and / or Sam who&#39;s responsible for this happening). And *everything clicks* for Faramir. Suddenly he understands Boromir&#39;s death -- it was madness over this very thing that contributed to it. At one level, Faramir is as tempted by the ring as Boromir, but his outward reaction is an almost allergic antipathy to it -- man, my brother died of alcoholism, get that damn beer bottle out of here! So the focus unexpectedly shifts from how Faramir will react to how knowledge of the Ring will change his mind. First and most obvious, he lets Frodo go to continue the Quest, so that tension is resolved. And because he&#39;s Boromir&#39;s brother and can thus understand what the Ring did to his mind, he can quickly come to see what it has done to Gollum&#39;s mind and is doing to Frodo&#39;s. And so he spares Gollum instead of having him put to death -- showing a kingly level of insight and compassion. All in all, a great set of twists indeed on the by-now standard "see the ring and be tempted" motif. Boy, some of the later dialogue about the effect of the Ring could make its way into these scenes, and be very powerful. Faramir Getting It about the Ring - really understanding Frodo&#39;s pain (and Boromir&#39;s) - that will be a splendid counterpoint to the end of FOTR and a really satisfying close to TTT. __________ And it goes withouit saying that this expansion of Faramir&#39;s role (consistent with the expansion of Boromir&#39;s) will set up the romance with Eowyn, which will of course be played up (although it&#39;s going to take some great screenwriting to interpolate those scenes into the action without breaking the flow!) -- in fact, I think we&#39;re going to see a double wedding scene that will be the emotional high point of ROTK.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 12:25 p.m. CST

    One More Thing

    by emvan

    In my guess for the ending, we have Eowyn seeing Aragorn and co. off, and Faramir seeing Frodo and co. off. Holy foreshadow!

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 2:32 p.m. CST

    emvan, I like your ending ideas

    by wilko185

    sounds plausible, and good. We&#39;ll see. And a double wedding finale sounds likely too (poor Eomer will probably miss out, a triple wedding is taking it too far). _____ morG, these posters with the silly numbers and obscure monikers, what are they thinking eh? <shakes head> _____ "Westu xxx hal" is genuine Old English, as used by the Rohirrim. Eomer greets Theoden with "Westu Theoden Hal!". ["Waes thu, Hrothgar, hal!" appears in Beowulf. Btw, as you probably know, the arrival of Gandalf and the three hunters at Edoras is closely based on the Beowulf&#39;s arrival at Heorot (the appearance of the gold-thatched hall, the challenge by the doorwardens, the leaving of weapons at the door etc).]

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 3:35 p.m. CST

    sigh... It could work i supose....

    by NK

    Missing shelob in TTT will be a shame, a dreadful blow, a trajedy, I was really looking foreward to it(can&#39;t ya tell) besides the look on peoples faces who hadn&#39;t read the book would&#39;ve been priceless "WHAT THE #####! I PAID GOOD MONEY TO SEE THE LEAD CHARACTER KILLED !?!!" It could work, but only if they end theTT with Frodo, Sam, and gollum huddled in front of the black gate (wich of course is impassable...)and gollum saying in a menacing whisper "there is another way.." close up on gollums face. fade to the pass and possibly even shelobs cave.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 3:45 p.m. CST

    Eleanor

    by Billy Talent

    And I thought you were one of the good ones. I&#39;m not as enamored of &#39;Lord of the Rings&#39; as some. I didn&#39;t hate it, I&#39;m not making negative comparisons to &#39;Star Wars&#39;, I&#39;m not questioning its fans sexuality. As I said before, I admire Jackson for offering the choice between the theatrical cut and the special edition on DVD. To some people, it might seem like a no brainer, but I have a feeling not everyone&#39;s going to like the extended cut. Honestly, I&#39;m curious. Is the ring just a McGuffin, or does it do anything? Within this great, magical world Tolkien and Jackson have constructed, the ability to turn invisible doesn&#39;t seem like that big a deal. Sorry if that makes me an ass, but I&#39;m not on New Line&#39;s payroll, I don&#39;t have any vested interest in these movies&#39; success and I don&#39;t consider them beyond criticism. And yes, I thought portions of the film were shit ugly. Lurtz and the Uruk-Hai looked like &#39;Battlefield Earth&#39; characters. Flame away Eleanor. Now that you&#39;ve called me an ass, you might want to try some other popular favorites like &#39;Faggot&#39;, &#39;Bitch&#39;, &#39;Retard&#39; and &#39;Commie&#39;. I&#39;ll never call you anything but Eleanor.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 4:19 p.m. CST

    "So far down no-one will read this post..."

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    Well, I read it, if it&#39;s any comfort. I have been trying to decide who my second favourite is to win the Oscars - so far, after FOTR, it&#39;s Moulin Rouge. However, I did catch A Beautiful Mind today and I did enjoy it - but did anyone else notice the staggering number of shots where the sound boom is clearly visible at the top of the screen? I thought this was why CGI was invented. Do you know, I&#39;ve never noticed that in a major motion picture before, though I know it happens all the time. Very weird. It does get me thinking though - another first occurred to me a couple of days ago - Lost In Space was the first movie where I thought the screenplay was so bad that I stayed through to the credits to see who perpetrated it. And it was Akiva Goldman, who wrote ABM, which wasn&#39;t bad, except for the unrivalled cheese of the Big Speech At The End Scene. It would have been cooler to end it with the pens - low key but touching, IMHO. But to get back on topic, I remain anxious about the TTT timeline, however, one thing does give me cheer - Peter Jackson has already seen it. My understanding it that the rough cut is practically finished, and they&#39;re just touching stuff up and doing the effects. And presumably he must think it is cool. And since I thought the first movie was rather cool myself, we must have kind of similar tastes. So that cheers me, a little bit. (Though I did not think the Ford scene was cool, though I see why they did it.) So my guess is that it will be cool, but a nailbiting wait. I&#39;m also bummed about the Scouring since I was getting my hopes up again, only to have them dashed - curses, Elanor! But, like I say, this is old news. Bah. Now I need to buy a DVD player and a TV that can hook up to it. Time to start saving.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 4:32 p.m. CST

    Dr Floyd, if you spell elanor&#39;s name correctly, she might be

    by wilko185

    I guess she assumed (as did I) that the Battlefield Earth crack was just trolling. As to your question, it&#39;s alluded to in the film that a great deal of Sauron&#39;s power is invested in the Ring (hence his virtual annihilation when he loses it). The way the power of the Ring actually works isn&#39;t clearly explained in the book, but it appears to be a power of command and dominance over the wills of others. For example, Sauron used it to create the 9 Nazgul (Black Riders) who were originally lords of men (like Aragorn) but became corrupted by their 9 rings, which Sauron controlled through *his* Ring. The Ring&#39;s powers are given according to the innate power of its wearer. So Frodo is not powerful enought to do much with the Ring (yet - he may learn) beyond turn invisible. Gandalf, on the other hand, would gain a huge amount of power from the Ring, if he wore it. But he would inevitably become corrupted by it.... I thought it was emphasised quite strongly in the film how important the Ring was, and how crucial it was that it be destroyed or else Sauron would "rule the world". Maybe I was wrong, it&#39;s hard to percieve the story from the non-readers POV.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 4:39 p.m. CST

    Sorry, Elanor

    by Billy Talent

    I&#39;ll also try to spell your name correctly in the future.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 5:07 p.m. CST

    Elanor

    by Billy Talent

    Well, you see I&#39;m an elitist snob too, and I like to stay on their good sides. However, since the apology&#39;s not forthcoming... well, I&#39;m Canadian so modesty and good manners are kind of engrained. And we just kicked your fucking red white and blue asses 5 - 2!

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Excuses for script flaws...

    by Dragonfire

    This is my reasoning in regards to all the supposed script flaws, and I&#39;m basing it all on what I saw in the film. First of all, why Gandalf didn&#39;t send Bilbo to Rivendell with the ring? That question&#39;s been answered a few times by others. He saw the way Bilbo was acting with the ring and decided it was best for him to leave it behind. He then told Frodo to "keep it secret and safe" because he thought that it would be secret and safe in the shire. Why didn&#39;t he go with Frodo to Rivendell? He didn&#39;t think he was in any danger yet. When he finds out from Saruman that the nine are already heading for the shire he is shocked and immediately tries to leave to help Frodo but is stopped by Saruman. This is enough to show us that he didn&#39;t expect the enemy to act so quickly. How could Aragorn defeat the nazgul? Well, first of all, there were only four or five of them. Second of all, the took them by surprise, leaping out of nowhere and fighting like a madman as he was. He fought quickly and effectively and clearly caught the nazgul off their guard. Peter Jackson didn&#39;t give any hint that the Nazgul were supposed to be effective warriors or anything, because they aren&#39;t effective warriors. They can&#39;t even see very well (One of the nazgul on Weathertop is confused and looking around to see where the attack&#39;s coming from before Aragorn throws the torch at him) but they&#39;re powerful because everyone always cowers in fear when they&#39;re around, as they do in the film, but Aragorn didn&#39;t cower in fear, mantained his composure and drove them away before they could react. Why didn&#39;t Gandalf use magic against the orcs? Why should he? The goblins of Moria are weaklings, and could easily be fought off with weapons. Using magic would just attract more attention and drain Gandalf&#39;s energy (You can see from Ian Mckellen&#39;s acting how exhausted Gandalf is every time he uses magic). Also, it&#39;s a bit difficult to cast magic when there are goblins all over the place. The problem is that with a story of this depth and scope, you can&#39;t explain every single little story and character detail. You can&#39;t have Gandalf turn to the camera during the battle and say "by the way, the reason I&#39;m not using magic is because I&#39;m humble and it&#39;s not really necessary. Everyone got that?". The audience just has to work it out for themselves based on things other than dialogue, like the way the characters are acting. Everyting they need to know is there. They just have to concentrate.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 5:35 p.m. CST

    Drink! Celebrate! Touch sore scalp ruefully!

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    (Rubbing head) How did you know that? Spooky... got a palantir of your own there. Yay! Let everyone jump up and down and ring little bells and sing cheerfully! I hear it got best director, best picture, best fx, best hair and makeup, and the Orange prize.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 5:49 p.m. CST

    five BAFTA awards for FOTR!

    by Dragonfire

    including best film and best director. Pretty cool.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 6:12 p.m. CST

    god damn you logic...god damn you to hell

    by kojiro

    For those (mercifully few) of you who are distressed about having to buy both dvd&#39;s to get the theatrical and the longer versions of the movie, try this on for size. Wait a fuckin year and go down to Wal Mart where the bare bones version will be on sale for $14.44. If that&#39;s enough money to get you bitching about the price then we can safely assume that you&#39;re either horribly cheap (and a dick), or an employee of the aforementioned Wal Mart, in which case you have my pity.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 6:20 p.m. CST

    me

    by Darth Melkor

    Personally I won&#39;t be buying either. I can wait another 2 years for the inevitable box set of all three movies. I&#39;ll probably rent the DVD&#39;s and watch all the extras for now.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 6:57 p.m. CST

    The future&#39;s bright... the future&#39;s Orange.

    by AliceInWonderlnd

    The Orange award is basically a popularity contest, named for Orange mobile phones, I expect. A sort of people&#39;s choice thing. People vote for them, and it looks like they voted for LOTR. Hey hey! I hear it also won at the Empire awards. So far, so cool. It all calls for Black Russians and Lemon Cake.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 7:01 p.m. CST

    Great news about the baftas

    by Otto Parts

    This confirms that LOTR has been embraced by the British people; this is their blessing to Peter Jackson&#39;s vision of the book. The films were never going to match up to the experience of reading the books, but as some people have pointed out - there are also things you can do on film which are better than the books. All I can say about the film is that it was about as good as it could have been, and that&#39;s saying a lot [see the Scooby-Do talkback for how adaptations can go wrong] Now if it could win the Oscar for best picture, that would be really cool, although I hope Ben Kingsely wins his too...I&#39;ve said my piece.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 7:17 p.m. CST

    REAL purpose of ends in 3 movies & Gandalf not using magic

    by BilboFett

    Perhaps Jackson isn&#39;t planning on major cliffhangers divided into 2 equal parts (end of FOTR and the end of TTT) because he wants one seamless movie, to be 9-hours long, placed on one DVD? That you can watch and not feel like you&#39;re feeling a break at every 3 hour mark? Perhaps because Jackson is feeling the spirit of Tolkien, in that it was 3 books that told one story, and now its one story told in 3 movies? Oh.. and Gandalf not using his magic, that&#39;s pretty much been explained but I will add a tad more: His primary goal is to conserve magic and only use it as the last resort, why? Because he was sent to middle earth to guide and encourage it&#39;s inhabitants towards good and to fight Sauron.. not to take over and just do everything himself. It is essentially a mortal battle, that the mortals must fight. Gandalf just facilitates change and influences and inspires.. using his magic only if nothing else will do.. ie. Saruman and the Balrog. He wants the hobbits/humans to do most of the work.. for their sake. He also gets very tired whenever he uses it. He is a humble wizard and it&#39;s to be used sparingly. I like the idea also that he attracts more evil if he uses more magic.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 7:19 p.m. CST

    A MESSAGE TO ALL: JACKSON OWES US NOTHING!

    by BilboFett

    And HERE&#39;S SOMETHING FOR ALL OF YOU: JACKSON OWES US N-O-T-H-I-N-G. WE ARE BLESSED THAT HE IS MAKING THESE MOVIES AND I DON&#39;T THINK ANYONE COULD MAKE THEM BETTER, EVEN TOLKIEN! YES, I JUST SAID THAT.. BECAUSE TOLKIEN WAS A WRITER AND NOT A DIRECTOR, AND IS PRETTY MUCH AGAINST TECHNOLOGY. FUNNY HOW THE VERY THING THAT TOLKIEN WARNED ABOUT IS BEING USED FOR GOOD SO WE GET TO ENJOY THE LOTR EVEN MORE. SOUNDS LIKE THE OPPOSITE OF THE POTENTIAL OF THE RING: PEOPLE WARNED AGAINST TRYING TO USE THE EVIL RING FOR GOOD, AND NOW &#39;EVIL&#39; TECHNOLOGY (ITSELF) IS BEING USED FOR GOOD TO BRING US THE MOVIES. :) Woops.. left the caps lock on too long. Let me reiterate again: JACKSON OWES US NOTHING. These movies are a gift and a blessing and all it costs you is $7.00 to see it.. or $20 to own it. Think about it. Do you have $300 million and the connections, talent, creativity, and patience to make them yourself? Jackson owes us nothing, and anything we get past that we need to be thankful for. Stop being ingrateful and be glad you didn&#39;t die before 2001. -BilboFett on the #aintitcool.com chat

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 7:52 p.m. CST

    A Simple Solution to the Gandalf-Moria-Magic Q

    by emvan

    Gandalf can toss inanimate objects around with his mind (Gimli&#39;s axe in the TTT book) and he can do that to *other wizards.* Who says he can do it to other creatures with free will? In fact, it&#39;s consistent with the bg of the Istari that he would be forbidden and perhaps unable to do so. He was not permitted to persuade others with force (I don&#39;t know whether Tolkien addresses the Q of whether orcs have free will, but they did have it at least in origin). PJ has invented a perfectly reasonable subclause to this rule -- fellow wizards are exempt.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 9:50 p.m. CST

    A Midsummer Night&#39;s Dream

    by Billy Talent

    Yes Elanor, I certainly caught the reference. In fact, I once wrote a song called &#39;The Man With the Head of an Ass&#39;. Anyways, thanks for your kind words. Sorry if I came off as a troll. I suppose the action&#39;s probably moving over to the BAFTA talkbacks. One thing: I watched &#39;Pearl Harbor&#39; on pay per view the other night, and while it was one of the worst movies I&#39;ve ever seen, I must say that the special effects were pretty superb. &#39;LotR&#39; is undoubtedly a superior film overall, but if it wins an oscar for its effects (and I&#39;m sure it will), I&#39;ll think that that&#39;s just a little unfair.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 9:50 p.m. CST

    Will audiences have a problem with TTT NOT ending with an action

    by Ralph Cifaretto

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 9:54 p.m. CST

    Personally, I find the ending of TTT very dramatically satisfyin

    by Ralph Cifaretto

    Are audiences gonna have to wait a year to find out if Gollum is really a BAD GUY. I don&#39;t think that will make for a terribly satisfying ending.

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 9:57 p.m. CST

    Besides...after TTT was came out I was planning on spraypainting

    by Ralph Cifaretto

  • Feb. 24, 2002, 11:40 p.m. CST

    Pewburrito

    by MikeSal222

    So we aren&#39;t allowed to criticize anything about any movie, because these filmmakers don&#39;t owe us anything? We should just take what we are given and say "Please, sir, can I have some more?" Nonsense. True, Jackson owes us nothing. But we don&#39;t owe him anything, either, so there&#39;s nothing wrong with making critical comments if we don&#39;t like what we see. If I&#39;m paying $9 to see a movie, I sure as hell have the right to comment on the movie as I see fit. On the flip side, Jackson has the right to tell us to go f*** ourselves, and make the movies the way he wants to.

  • Feb. 25, 2002, 2:16 a.m. CST

    MikeSal222

    by BilboFett

    I agree. You read a little more into what I was saying than what was there: People are totally justified in critiquing any movie for any reason (although it does not make them right): however, with LOTR specifically, we can still criticize and wine, but we should remember how long and hard it&#39;s been to get these movies made and appreciate the fact that they even exist at all for us to criticize or praise. I just don&#39;t want people taking the movies for granted. It&#39;s fun to nitpick and wonder why Shelob is moved to #3 and if the Gray Havens will be in 3 and if TTT will have enough action.. but let us not forget that we might have not even had these movies at all. I know I&#39;ve waited 18 years to see them myself! I think it&#39;s a great time to be alive myself -BilboFett from #aintitcool.com chat

  • Feb. 25, 2002, 3:41 a.m. CST

    Ryalto

    by alpha

    1) DVD&#39;s: Virtually every major film comes out in a stripped down version and then later on in a deluxe version. The fact they are already telling people whats in both versions IS commendable rather than doing it on the sly by announcing the special edition some weeks or months after the stripped down version debuts (like 95% of other releases). They could of brought them out at the same time but I&#39;m not sure if all the music & post production work will be ready by August so that could be one reason as well as the obvious profit maximisation reasons. God help me I will never defend Lucas again. I praise him for being a great ideas man and the person who opened the door for LOTR (as well as fings like Indy) but I criticise his scriptwriting abilities and you jup on me. Well listen up ... anything that comes out of Jar Jar&#39;s mouth, the Ewoks, Jake Lloyds dialogue and anyone speaking to him, Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregors sadly wasted characterisations and the noises (and whole sequences) involving Ewoks are all examples of his faults as a scriptwriter. Listen to the dialogue and seriously compare it to anything in LOTR even the dwarf throwing joke and the slightly cringeworthy Fellowship of the ring scene. Overall the simple fact is Lucas is a techie at heart with great visual senses but he&#39;s a little lost when it comes to dialogue. Jackson on the other hand didn&#39;t have to worry so much about creating new dialogue but more in adapting or compressing dialogue that already existed. I think he did a good job. All I said about Lucas is tvhe simple truth, if he was willing to get a wordsmith in to sharpen his dialogue the SW films would reach their absolute potential (which is enormous) rather than being the great films or enjoyable films they are (the first 2 a re great the 2nd two enjoyable).

  • Feb. 25, 2002, 10:50 a.m. CST

    Peter Jackson has ruined my life

    by cody_jarrett

    Dear Peter, thanks a lot for ruining my life. I have just swallowed a load of tablets and am using my final moments to write my complaints to YOU! Why oh why did you not make the films I wanted? Why are you changing things to a 600 page unfilmable epic and not consulting me? What&#39;s the point of living if Shelob isn&#39;t the next film, (the next film which is now going to be crap, yes yes I know all about the Ents and Helm&#39;s deep, but it&#39;s going to be crap, you hear?)I WANTED TO SEE THE SPIDER. You fucked it up now good and proper, I can tell you, dearie me, when you get to the Pearly Gates, they are going to laugh at you and kick you down to hell for NOT DOING WHAT WE WANTED. Yes yes I know this time last week we were praising you as the new god of cinema, but we are the nerd and we are geeks and we are FUCKING FICKLE. Ooh, I can feel my life slipping away, just in time to write a letter to my dear mom stating that I couldn&#39;t go on knowing that there will be TWO DVD releases. I&#39;ll show you, Jackson, to give me a choice seven months in advance about whether to buy the cinema version or an extended version, you&#39;ll be sorry. HA! And I won&#39;t even be around to see the Two Towers (which will be the worst film in history) trailers added onto that piece of shit Fellowship film that I have seen eight times already. I bet you are sorry now aren&#39;t you, Jackson eh? Hah hah hah.........*cough*

  • Feb. 25, 2002, 11:32 a.m. CST

    i&#39;m back

    by Gjakked77

    yeah, i&#39;m just finishing my tenth reading of LOTR myself. But your comments portray a depth of knowledge that could only come from either reading deeply into the Appendices or digging into the Silmarillion. (which is like the rite of passage for any true Tolkien fan) Conversation is always more enjoyable when those involved are informed, scholarly chaps. (perhaps we&#39;ll finally be able to use the term &#39;scholarly&#39; if after this movie more so-called "important" folks start recognizing LOTR for the piece of literary genius it is; let&#39;s hope!) BTW, my name isn&#39;t anything too criptic: G is the first letter of my last name, I AM JAKKED ;) (Hoo-Rah Air Force!!!), and 7 happens to be my favorite number. That&#39;s all. But what say you? I think a measure of purism is always good, since we ARE talking about the #1 book of the last century, but don&#39;t you think that people need to remember that 1.) ya gotta think about the difference in medium and 2.) if the non-initiated couldn&#39;t grasp what was going on up on the big screen, then how is anyone gonna make any dough?? Sad that it always comes back to that, but so far I&#39;m more than satisfied with PJ&#39;s ability to do both. I&#39;m concerned about this whole moving of Shelob, as I said before, but I&#39;ve seen enough to know we&#39;ve got a fairly bright cookie in charge in the land down under. (and yeah, "Wes thu hal" is out of Rohan; your memory serves you well) Didn&#39;t Jackson say so himself, that inspiring people to read the book for themselves would prove the true victory of his film? I think I read that somewhere.

  • Feb. 25, 2002, 2:54 p.m. CST

    Cody_Jarrett, you are my new hero.

    by Balrog77

    Thanks for that, dude. I needed a good laugh. :D As for Shelob being in ROTK, chronologically, that&#39;s exactly how it happens, and Frodo and Sam will have NOTHING to do in the third movie if it&#39;s not moved back!

  • Feb. 25, 2002, 4:26 p.m. CST

    TB ORDER finally explained.

    by rickytpmsucksass

    So whats the deal Harry. You ban my LOTR butt fucker story again? Whats the matter with you? Why you protecting what is truth. Fine you ban me again. But you disrepect the gentleman who asked why is the TB order fucked up? Harry you sick man I&#39;m going to answer what you won&#39;t. Folks its Harry who is fucking up the TB order by sabotaging this own website. Figures you truly his loser bitches if you take the time to sort thru the mess of a website he runs. I&#39;m lying, I&#39;m full of shit? Well the facts are on my side here is lesson in MYSQL programming that proves Harry fucks up his own website. ......................................................Normally his code to bring down the TB is like this. SQL = "SELECT * FROM talkback WHERE ID = &#39;GETID&#39; ORDER BY DATE"; When Harry get mad at the thread he replaces the above code with this malicious code to piss his audience off. SQLRANDOM = "SELECT * FROM talkback WHERE ID = &#39;GETID&#39; ORDER BY RANDOM"; Notice the TB works fine until Harry inserts the random code. Then everything afterward is random. So there is the sad truth to TB order. You think I&#39;ll full of shit. How about some other feedback by programmers? You&#39;ll see I&#39;m right and its egg on Harrys face. Discovered by The_Elf_Killer. Note Harry won&#39;t address this to anyone. He&#39;ll just delete this post to cover his FAT ASS so I&#39;ll cross post under 12 different user accounts to keep Fat and Harry busy. copyright2002 elf_killer

  • Dude, that became pretty obvious some fuckin time ago. Be a pearl anf piss off would you hon.

  • Feb. 26, 2002, 3:02 a.m. CST

    RoosterBooster

    by LeoO

    You said in referring to the Scouring of the Shire: "It shows that evil can be found at home and is not the preserve of distant, sinister foreigners." But that is precisely what evil is the preserve of, from the Shire&#39;s perspective. Evil is only brought to the Shire by sinister foreigners who show up uninvited and wreck everything. The evil Men (with a significant helping of orc/goblin blood in them) muscle their way in to positions of power in the Shire, after they get a foot in the door thanks to the leaf trade. Bree got worse thanks to all this as well and had its little set-to (the REAL climax of LOTR). One of my favorite lines in LOTR is when Farmer Cotton says "This isn&#39;t your country, and you&#39;re not wanted." Precisely the right attitude to illegal immigration. And a strong refutation of your post.

  • Feb. 26, 2002, 4:31 a.m. CST

    LOTR B.Office in Japan

    by noodles001

    How well is LOTR currently doing in Japan? There&#39;s seems to be some confusion over when I think the release date is. Ian Mckellan yesterday on Brit TV said it&#39;s "gone through the roof" in Japan.

  • March 4, 2002, 7:12 a.m. CST

    Shelob, Faramir,...

    by Mithril

    First of all, to Brian 2000: I SO agree with a whole shitload of stuff you&#39;re saying! Although I do disagree with the concern over Faramir. Expanding Faramir is exactly the right thing to do (and not just because he&#39;s my favourite character - close to Fangorn, Gandalf and Legolas - in the books), but because it&#39;s part of the big idea behind the story: that the world is changing and that these events will lead to humans taking over, while the other races fade away, hide or leave. Think back to Gandalf and Elrond&#39;s "we will turn to the humans" speech in FOTR. *I have to add my concern about Shelob being moved. In previous posts I&#39;ve wondered about the time line being right, and I&#39;m glad it is (and the Sam/Frodo stuff needed padding in ROTK), but Shelob is in my mind the finest cliffhanger ever, and I&#39;ve been dreaming of seeing that cliffhanger on the screen (as have my friends and family) since the first time I saw FOTR. Not only is the ending shocking in the pure thrills way (like if ESB had ended with Luke falling into the abyss and everyone left going "is Vader Luke&#39;s dad? is Luke going to survive? WTF!!! I need see next film now!!!"), but with the emotional fact that the ending with Shelob is also the point where the entire Sam/Frodo/Gollum story that&#39;s been developing for the whole TTT comes together, and all the strands meet. Sam&#39;s decisions and the threat of Frodo being dead etc. will determine the rest of the story and will be much more emotional at the end of the film (since good guys can&#39;t die at the beginnings of films, but can at the ends - case in point: the moving of Boromir&#39;s death). I&#39;m not saying that PJ can&#39;t give us a great ending to TTT, or that Shelob will totally suck in ROTK, but I do say that for sheer emotional closure and dramatic thrills, I don&#39;t think you can possibly beat the book ending of TTT. *Alpha: I don&#39;t think having Frodo seemingly die at the end of TTT would be repetitive. It was repetitive in FOTR because it kept happening and then 10-15 minutes later, he&#39;s okay again. This is exactly what will happen if you move Shelob to ROTK: Frodo is seemingly dead, but oh wait he isn&#39;t, oh look, 15 minutes later Sam&#39;s rescued him... *Wilko185: as for Faramir&#39;s temptation, I just hope that it won&#39;t be a retread of Boromir&#39;s temptation. Faramir isn&#39;t all that tempted by the ring, after all. He&#39;s the perfect product of two royal lines: the kings of old (like Aragorn) and his father&#39;s line, which makes him - especially mentally - awfully strong. He is also a student of Gandalf&#39;s and an extremely learned reader of the ancient scripts (it&#39;s stated that he knows more about the ancient times than anyone - bar maybe Gandalf and Denethor), so he knows about the evil of the ring and knows enough from Gandalf&#39;s teachings to not be tempted or even want to look at the ring. His refusal should more mirror Gandalf&#39;s than Aragorn or Boromir&#39;s. I do agree that he should accidentally see the ring and put it all together, but rather than push it away because he knows he&#39;s weak to it because of his blood line (which is what Aragorn did, for chrissakes!), he should remember the stories of old, and Gandalf&#39;s teachings and his own ability to judge people and their actions, and decide not to even touch the bloody ring and let Frodo and company go on with their mission. *Smakamoto: nice little poser you present us with. In some ways Gandalf does let go. First of all: he&#39;s not all that sure the fall will kill the Balrog. Secondly, it&#39;s a bit like why Kenobi just did that little smile and let Vader cut him down. Istari judgement is a little above our minds, guys. And thirdly, Aragorn needs to grow into a leader. The future of the world doesn&#39;t just depend on Frodo, it depends on Aragorn making the decisions he does by trusting his own judgement (Paths of the Dead, anyone...), not being plagued by his own insecurities and worries about his family weaknesses, and maturing into a real leader and king. Gandalf knew this. If Gandalf had stuck around, Aragorn would have followed him and looked to him for advice. With Gandalf gone, he has to make the choices himself... In some ways Gandalf was willing to sacrifice himself if that meant saving the world. After all, the Istari were meant to affect things by inspiring others. This was the one way to nudge Aragorn into becoming the leader he could be. *** Would have a lot more to say, but this is getting exhausting. Maybe in another TB.

  • Oct. 7, 2002, 5:13 a.m. CST

    Philistine swine

    by Frodo Underhill

  • Oct. 7, 2002, 5:40 a.m. CST

    Get a clue

    by Frodo Underhill

    Those of you who keep criticizing PJ and Fran Walsh for some of their decisions obviously have never worked in the film industry. If you&#39;re going to criticize, have some credentials to back up your statements. Do any of you have any idea what it takes to get a project of this size made? New Line&#39;s investors have ONE goal in mind: Making $$$$. PERIOD. I think Peter, Fran, and the rest of the team are doing a miraculous job bringing Tolkien&#39;s vision to the screen, in spite of dealing with pressure from the studio (which is ALWAYS present, Hollywood film or not). Funding these films was a big risk for New Line, especially entrusting the story to a somewhat "independent" director. As a long - time Tolkien fan (PJ fan too - I LOVED "Heavenly Creatures"), I don&#39;t see anything wrong with the changes made - in a perfect world, we could have a word -for - word translation of the books, but that&#39;s not how the film industry works. Sure, I&#39;d love to see Shelob at the end of TTT, with Frodo (seemingly) dead, and Sam left to carry on the quest alone. As a long-term, 3 - movie investment, is that going to yield the best ticket sales return? I don&#39;t know, but I&#39;m sure these questions have been tossed around. And those that have the gold make the rules. As it stands, it seems New Line has given PJ a LOT of artistic freedom. As it stands, the spirit of Tolkien&#39;s vision remains alive and well in these films... - JP, film editor, Lantern Light Studios

  • April 20, 2003, 5:37 p.m. CST

    Lord of the Rings in Japan?

    by Luvoria

    Hm, yes, such things are true. Lord of the Rings is hitting it big in Japan, but release dates and whatnot aren't to my knowledge. I know they've most likely released Fellowship of the Ring, for I've seen a lot of stuff in Japan based on it, such as doujinshis and movie posters and other forms of merchandise. All I know besides that is they love it and can't get enough of it.