Coaxial

HERC's Seen Tuesday's BUFFY!!

Published at: Jan. 7, 2002, 5:20 a.m. CST by staff

Buffy 6.11 FAQ

What’s it called?

”Gone.”

Who’s responsible?

Written and directed by David Fury (author of “Bargaining, Part II,” co-author of “Life Serial”).

What does TV Guide say?

“Buffy's efforts to help Willow's recovery are disrupted by a run-in with an intrusive social worker and a spat with Spike. Then, she's mistakenly zapped by an invisibility ray wielded by Jonathan, Warren and Andrew. At least she gets a new hairdo.”

The big news?

MAJOR, EPISODE-RUINING SPOILERS AHEAD: Buffy comes to realize she fears dying again. Anya is inviting her ex-boss D’Hoffryn to the wedding. And Warren deliberately tries to kill Buffy!

Do the two other Nerds of Doom witness Warren doing this?

They do.

Are they on board with it?

They are not. But Warren will probably pretend it was an accident.

Does Buffy get the haircut before or after she becomes invisible?

Immediately before.

Why does she cut it?

She begins hacking away following a bad meeting with Doris the social services woman.

Isn’t invisibility a good thing?

Buffy has fun with it, but we soon learn if one stays invisible too long one turns to pudding.

Does Spike try to avoid Buffy this episode?

In no way.

Does Buffy get through the episode without some vampire lovin’?

Nope.

Is the relationship still in the closet?

Thanks in part to the invisibility, the Scoobs remains blissfully ignorant.

Is the magic-pushing warlock Rack back?

Rack is wholly absent. As is Amy.

Is Willow back on the pipe?

She absently levitates a book a little, but catches herself before it’s airborne. She’s tempted again, however, at another point late in the episode.

Does Buffy become aware that the Nerds of Doom are behind the mayhem?

Not until the very end. They prove themselves the world’s worst evil masterminds when Warren announces, “We’re your arch-nemesis-es-sis."

Does Xander confront Willow?

They have a chat. Constructo-boy naturally assumes Will might be behind the slayer’s lack of visibility. His momentary suspicion does leave Will a tad peeved.

Is Dawnie healed up from “Wrecked”?

She’s in a sling. And still harbors bad feelings of blame for both Willow and Buffy.

Is Tara about?

Also wholly absent this week.

What’s good?

Buffy’s witty revenge on Doris the social worker. The off-handed reference to “Out of Mind, Out of Sight.” The ineptitude of the Nerds of Doom, particularly Jonathan's panicky attempts to disguise his identity. The sorting out of who Andrew is. The camerawork for the mostly-sound-effects climactic battle.

What’s not so good?

The “came back wrong” thing is passingly referenced, but the episode offers no new clues as to how.

Herc’s rating for “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” 6.11?

***

The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

  • ***** better than we deserve
  • **** better than most motion pictures
  • *** actually worth your valuable time
  • ** as horrible as most stuff on TV
  • * makes you quietly pray for bulletins

I am – Hercules!!





To order boxer shorts adorned with the image of a green, handicapable “Buffy” fanatic, click here.

Readers Talkback

comments powered by Disqus
    + Expand All
  • Jan. 7, 2002, 5:25 a.m. CST

    I thought someone was goign to die?

    by THE WALLACE

    Well? wans't this the ep?

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 5:48 a.m. CST

    Timothy Dalton should get an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over th

    by cozmicmonkeychow

    The "Big Scooby Death" doesn't happen for at least the next few episodes. Look in some of the older Buffy articles, there have been several that described the events in the next few episodes. Long live the Troika!

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 6:17 a.m. CST

    Why Warren tried to kill buffy

    by WilliamKnights

    Since i havent seen this episode yet, this is mostly a cool idea. I remember once the the Mayor of Sunnydale said that he once had a wife. Is so then it stands to reason that he might have had kids. What if Warren was somehow related to the Mayor. The vengence thing always works in these shows. And it would explain why hes so magically inclined. That would be a cool plot twist. Who knows!!!

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 6:44 a.m. CST

    Sigh looks like the writers are going to stick to

    by spike fan

    Willow as a drug addict story line instead of the more interesting Willow as a control freak who loves power. THAT WAS FAR MORE INTERESTING AND LESS PREDICTABLE. Overall looks just like a fun filler.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 7:06 a.m. CST

    Is it me or have all

    by spike fan

    The Vampire charachters except Spike moved over to the Angel show . This show needs more Vampires. ANYONE ELSE AGREE#### I say Vamp a scooby possibly Willow cause she is incredibly powerful and would make a cool Vampire leader who would also affect Buffy EMTIONALY. ## And Hannigan has shown she can play evil really well.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 7:11 a.m. CST

    Warren's motive

    by MGTHEDJ

    He blame's Buffy for losing his girlfriends. He had the robot then a real woman, and he lost both in 5 minutes. Yes it's juvenile but it plays into this season's theme of immaturity.-----later-----m

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 7:58 a.m. CST

    Spike

    by dooMoth

    Spike mocking Angel in season one episode 'In The Dark'. "...you see, I was once a bad ass Vampire, but love and a pesky curse defanged me, and now I'm just a big fluffy pupy with bad teeth...". Shortly after he returns to Sunnydale, gets chipped, and becomes a big fluffy puppy in love with the slayer. Quality!

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 9:09 a.m. CST

    Blckmgk You are right that S7 will probaly be the last

    by spike fan

    The fact is while a lot of other charachters have a lot of potential to explore BTVS is about Buffy and Buffy only. And after 7 years there really will be nothing left to write about HER thats new## Besides which Gellers contract runs out then and I doubt she will want to sign on again for longer she seems to be getting bored with her role after so long and the only fact she probaly has not left earlier is cause he movie career has been a flop. But she is also producing a cartoon with the WB and I am sure she will get other projects besides she is marrying FPJ soon and will probaly want to start making little FPJ's ### And then there is Joss Whedon himself. What with Firefly and the Giles spin-off he seems to be getting bored with writing Buffy and seems to want to concentrate on Movies and other things. He has only written and Directed once this season!####### But its been made clear though by Joss and the other writers that when Geller walks cause Dushku will probaly not come back that MT/Dawn is being grommed as a replacement Slayer spin-off when Geller walks.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 9:34 a.m. CST

    WilliamKnights, re: Warren...

    by dp4m

    ... ummm, I think Warren is TECHNOLOGICALLY inclined, and Jonathan was the magically-inclined one, no? But you are correct that the plot twist you suggested would be mad-cool. =)

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 10:05 a.m. CST

    Dawns mistrust of B? and the nerds of doom

    by sundown

    damn they need to do something or catch an asswhipin and fade the hell away. And its funny Dawn is pissed at BOTH Buffy and Willow. Someone needs to wake the two up to the selfish crap they been up to and maybe she can do it. It won't be Xander thats for sure. He seems to be milling around all pointless like. Speaking of which willthey ever address what he did in "Once More with Feeling"?

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 10:09 a.m. CST

    why I think season 7 won't be the last

    by sundown

    why would UPN pay all that money for two seasons of a show? Plus its getting better ratings than last year. You never cancel a show if the ratings go up...you write it into the ground. Virtually no show (save DS9) went off the air at the top of its game. Thats how shows end up with the guy who played Jefferson on Married with Children. Hell look at Xfiles. Fox will make Joss drag it out as long as he can even if he has to do it without Buffy! Hey who thought there would be Xfiles with no Mulder?

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 11 a.m. CST

    Buffy Gone Spoilage

    by WhosDaMan

    -----Warning, here come some major spoilage ----- 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1... First comes this wildfeed (beats Herc's, eh?) Thanks to Leoff, www.leoffonline.com Buffy the Vampire Slayer

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 11:06 a.m. CST

    BUFFY 6.11 GONE

    by 93curr

    Am I the only one confused by the timeline in 6.10 Wrecked? When, exactly, do W/A first visit Rack's? It appears to be on the night following B/S, yet on the next night B/S refer to last night'. So W has three days in ths episode but B only has two? Is this extreme carelesness on Marti Noxon's part or part of a time dilation plot line (the troika did play with B's timeline twice in Life Serial but it doesn't explain S).

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 11:09 a.m. CST

    BUFFY 6.11 GONE

    by 93curr

    Slightly off topic, but does anyone think it significant that Willow was wearing a cross or possibly a crucifix in Flooded? No more Jewish or just poor attention to detail on the wardrobe department (and Miss Hannigan)'s part? And what ever happened to Amni/Miss Kitty Fantastico?

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 11:32 a.m. CST

    nerds?

    by 93curr

    Wouldn't the nerds of doom, of all people, realize that if you're invisible you're also blind? If light just passes through your corneas the image can't reach your brain.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 11:53 a.m. CST

    Okay, I'm excited! A new ep!

    by Smugbug

    I get this way after reading Herc's synopsis - THEN I watch the show and afterwards just seems all rather anticlimatic. At least this season. It's still the BEST show on TV, and I am rather miffed that even the AFI didn't award it Best Dramatic Series. This ep however sounds like a comedic *filler* and maybe a way to introduce Sarah's new "do".

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 12:14 p.m. CST

    Riley married?

    by VarietyWriter

    That's the new rumor going around and it appears reliable. So the question is, does Riley return as a happily married man TO A VAMPIRE?

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 12:17 p.m. CST

    RE: nerds?

    by iloveryan

    It should be kept in mind that this invisibility-making do-hickey is magic, not science. Or so I tend to assume. I hope this season gets back on track soon. It's been a real snooze-fest so far, IMHO.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 1 p.m. CST

    just checking

    by Naia

    the talkback to see if this message will post on the bottom. Mine haven't been. I haven't read the spoilers due to a rare moment of self-restraint, so I don't have much to say.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 1:46 p.m. CST

    more random thoughts -does Dawn have a soul?

    by 93curr

    As long as I'm randomly spewing out things that are making me tired for the other shoe to drop...is anyone else curious why no one on the show's questioned whether or not Dawn has a soul? And if she does, from whence does it come? It doesn't seem likely that the monks have that kind of power, and seeing as how everyone seems so obsessed with how Spike can love without one, and whether or not only the Slayer half of Buffy came back...

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 1:54 p.m. CST

    I'd say Dawn has a soul and UPN

    by sundown

    not because the Monks gave her one but because as they have said over and over she is now a totally mortal creature and all mortal humans can choose good or evil thus soul. Only undead vamps are robbed of that. Also to say UPN bought a franchise so they can have only two seasons likeits fact is a bit off logic. Fact is they have shown other parts of the B library they own and the show is a top rated one on their network so they would be hard pressed to let it go. We AICNers may bitch about this season but we are not the key B demo. The show is doing better ratings then ever before so someone out their likes these new characters which is more than enough reason in UPNS eyes to have Dawn the Slayer...if Joss lets them that is...

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 2:35 p.m. CST

    fresh buffy....

    by thewoodpecker

    Yum! Still, this sounds like a filler/funny episode more then a plot mover. I will be glued to the TV, though.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 3:06 p.m. CST

    93curr re: 6.10 timeline

    by pedant

    Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if Marti fucked up the timeline. She completely fucked up Willow's motivations, why stop there? Wrecked was not only the worst Buffy I've ever seen, it's one of the worst episodes of ANY TV show I've ever seen. A huge disappointment.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 3:59 p.m. CST

    sundown: OMFW/Xander

    by 93curr

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that Dawn actually did do the invocation and then, scared, lied about it and Xander took the blame at the last minute -he sure didn't act like he had any responsibility during the course of the episode. If I'm right then they're probably waiting until all the Dawn stuff builds up that Buffy's not dealing with. And here I was worried that with Giles having left Willow and/or Tara would pick up the slack and deal with Dawn, thereby leaving Buffy to continue lying down when she should be standing tall. Either way, though, you're right. Someone should have been held accountable by now for the death(s).

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 4:09 p.m. CST

    Wrecked Timeline

    by Wicker Man

    Hey, I pointed out the continuity problem in the Wrecked talkback a long time ago! I'm hoping it turns out to be a planned mistake with some interesting explanation. As for Willow's cross, I'd be wearing a cross in Sunnydale whatever my religion.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 4:15 p.m. CST

    Jewish Willow's Cross

    by Spoons

    Willow's use of the cross to ward off vampires was addressed long ago, in whatever season Angel went evil and killed Willow's fish. Two, I think? Anyway, they made some sort of offhand remark about how Willow's father would react. Something about "Sam [?] Rosenberg's daughter putting up crucifixes." I don't remember exactly, but I'm sure someone here does.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 4:25 p.m. CST

    IRA Rosenburg

    by Spoons

    Ain't the internet grand? I found the previous reference to the Jewish-Willow-Crucifix issue. It's from the second season episode "Passion." The dialog is as follows: Willow: "I'm gonna' have a hard time explaining this to my dad." Buffy: "You really think it'll bother him?" Willow: "Ira Rosenberg's only daughter nailing crucifixes to her bedroom wall? I have to go over to Xander's house just to watch A Charlie Brown Christmas every year." Buffy: "I see your point." Willow: "Although it is worthwhile to see him do the Snoopy dance."

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 4:38 p.m. CST

    Wrecked timeline redux

    by 93curr

    I, also, would be quite willing to write the whole thing off to M. Noxon's lack of quality control if it weren't for just how specific the dialogue between Dawn and Willow is (me speak grammar good). When W asks how D's meeting with T was, D asks which day she means (which was the exact question I was asking seeing as how it now seemed to be two days later) and no answer was given. We see Willow and Amy at Rack's during the night (unless there was an eclipse that we don't know about) and then Willow, upon hitting the floor gets moved in space and wakes up on the floor of what appears to be her bedroom. The wall clock shows just after 11.30 (AM? PM? it sure appears to be sunlight coming in from the window) and , after a shower and cuddling w/ Tara's clothes, falls asleep again (I assume) to come down to the kitchen and talk w/Dawn. Now, my question is -why does the script call for such specific time-based dialogue between Buffy and Spike but is so intentionally vague between Dawn and Willow? It's almost as if they want us to notice this (along with the extremely telling point that Spike isn't big bad enough to locate Rack's) and I can't help but wonder if Willow's timeline is getting screwed up on purpose. We never see her walk back from Rack's (the first time) and if she moved in space, perhaps she was moved in time also. Maybe she comes down to the kitchen the night before she woke up -remember, we got the timeline Buffy experienced when the troika were playing with her in Life Serial- If they're going to come up with a big bad to outdo the god they went up against last season, maybe Rack (via Willow) might screw up spacetime entirely. Just a casual thought.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 4:48 p.m. CST

    good point 93curr

    by sundown

    it was completely out of character for Xander and dismissed so mater-of-factly that I figure you might be right. Though you'd think Buffy or Willow would bring it up to him at some point especially with him blaming Willow for stuff she didn't do. It's way more his personality to lie to take blame for a friend then to do the actual deed. So I wonder if this is a matter of Buffy having her head so far upher butt Dawn will get into serious trouble.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 4:59 p.m. CST

    Who's da man has no life

    by mattw

    Man, I didn't even read that thing. Can you imagine anyone having that much to write about Buffy The Fucking Vampire Slayer. Jeez, get out of your house once in a while man. Try to get laid or something. My god!

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 5:24 p.m. CST

    The ULTIMATE double-date: Riley/

    by Smugbug

  • kinda popped into my head the other day. Would make for a very interesting ep.......and *damn* that return key.....

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 5:54 p.m. CST

    It's just about the middle of the season

    by thecomedian

    And there has yet to be a real big bad. Please don't tell me the Nerds of Doom (with Warren in particular)are the actual Villains this season. Because that would really suck.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 7:54 p.m. CST

    Buffy in Phoenix and the latest theory on "What's Wrong"

    by Xocxoc

    Normally I avoid spoilerage this close to the airing of an episode, but a damn basketball game here in Phoenix has postponed Buffy till Saturday Night. *** Meanwhile, I have been pushing a theory that many say has merit as to what is really wrong with Buffy: Buffy is now "pure" slayer. - It has been said that Vampires are part human and part demon. If a slayer is equal and opposite, then to be a Slayer is a human/demon mix as well. What are the two common personality quirks of all slayers? They are instinctually drawn to vampires, and they have a secret death wish (see "Fool For Love" and "Intervention") Since Buffy has come back, these two instincts have become all encompassing obsessions, hence the animal attraction to Spike and the desire to return to "heaven". Another clue? Go back and see what Willow said when she was trying to raise Buffy from the dead, she was calling to "bring back the warrior of the people". It is possible that this spell was designed not for raising humans, but for raising slayers. Hence, Buffy's human half is still dead! *** And about that "Wrecked" flaw, I got to thinking that maybe the reason Spike never got a chance to sense Rack's place, is because, if the above theory is correct, Buffy would sense Rack's location as well!

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 8:48 p.m. CST

    talk backs...

    by lynnbracken

    Ok. I think they're may be something wrong...surely someone has posted something since Naia's this afternoon. This is a test...and I would like to say..the long post describing tomorrow's episode blow by blow...what's up with that? Geez...it's just 24 hours away. I'd kinda rather see it.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 9:07 p.m. CST

    xocxox

    by rubberjonny

    I think your theory is hilariously OTT and quite absurd beside's being patently rediculous!! - not really, just jesting - I think you might have somehing there, quite persceptive too. Which makes me wonder if come seaon finale there will be some kind of return to Buffy's heaven to straighten things out ( and contact her non - slayer half?). What with JW saying that Joyce could show up in some way ( a memory or whatever) this season, and very recent rumours about Angel turning up because it's VITAL to the storyline, I can't help feeling we might get to see our other beloved Buffy still havin' it large in Heavensville , but this time she gets ripped out by her Slayer half ( in order to fight the Big Bad for which she needs non-Slayer Buffy?) - Oh God - time to watch Restless for the gazillionth time.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 9:33 p.m. CST

    Well the show's not what it once was, but

    by Drath

    it still is entertaining. The epic feel of the first three seasons was lost right about the time Buffy went to college and all the storylines of the last three seasons were dropped whether they were thoroughly explored or not. And instead of introducing new big players into the show to replace the Angel, Faith, Spike & Dru, or the Mayor--who had been hanging over the show even in the second season--the seasons turned even more stand alone. The Initiative was a one-year deal from the beginning, as was Glory. Nothing they did had let much of a mark, even Buffy's dying felt attached rather than a natural conclusion to Glory's arch. The villains became unorganized, almost incidental with no real bite. And the heroes lost a lot of their innocence, which was a bit unavoidable but it unfortunately happened when the best supporting players disappeared and left us alone. At the moment I think we all can agree that this rerun down time sucks because the first half of the season is developing as slowly as season four did(BAAAAAD OMEN) and we ended on a bit a real down point. Willow hits rock bottom? I'm sorry, but I still think Willow is not Willow any more. The crucifix thing might even be proof. I think our Willow was replaced sometime last season. I liked her increased powers, that wasn't off the mark, but her personality has just been wayward. I want to see if Willow's remarks at the end of "wrecked" where she explains that she didn't want to be the ordinary Willow because super-witch was more fun/interesting is the beginning of our Willow coming back. I'd like her witchcraft to have consequences though, and I think the Buffy "came back wrong" stuff is the beginning of that. Buffy as the villain, that'd be new. Evil as I'm sure Warren would like to be, he's really too innept. But back to Willow: this is really a time when Oz needs to come back and be a semi-regular like Amy(Seth Green won't do it though). Remember, Willow didn't embrace the super dark arts(and got offered the vengeance demon gig) until that break-up!

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 10:32 p.m. CST

    WhosDaMan...

    by Bowie_lover

    ...as I am UPN-less due to living in hell, you are now my personal god. I can now sleep peacefully knowing all is right with the world.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 10:54 p.m. CST

    I think Xocxoc's onto something here...

    by thatLISE

    Does everyone remember the season 6 teasers about how they were bringing buffy back but that she wasn't the "same buffy" and that the buffy that's ripped from the grave is much more in touch with her "slayer side"... i like this prospect almost as much as the whole "buffy not having a soul" idea. her returning either not human/all slayer or souless would account for her whole "i touch the fire and it freezes me, i look in to it and it's black, why can't i feel, my skin should crack and peel, i want the fire back" stuff... maybe she can't feel because she's so completely slayer now... anyways. i'm blathering now.

  • Jan. 7, 2002, 11:59 p.m. CST

    Buffy, Triple H Returns, and Fear Factor

    by NotchJohnson

    As that fat guy in 'Moulin Rouge' would say "EVERYTHING'S GOING SO WELL!" Buffy is on track, Triple H returns to WWF tonight on a special episode of RAW, and another 'Fear Factor.' Just when you think life sucks, a few simple pleasures keep your head up.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 12:34 a.m. CST

    Once More With Feeling

    by TheHorn

    Does anyone know if the musical is going to be rerun again this year? If so, when?

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 12:49 a.m. CST

    The Timeline May Not Be Screwed Up On 'Buffy'....

    by EricAlan69

    ....but it sure as hell is in this TB! I *hate* it when that happens on this site. // Grrr. Arrgh. // e.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 2:53 a.m. CST

    b/a

    by kenzo

    will they ever be back together? I do hope so, even if it's only in the last episode of one of the shows ever. As a very final... I read in an article that Joss and David both didn't know where b/a would end up... I so hope they'll end up together... Anyone who knows more???

  • How far can Buffy go as a Slayer? I think this season is all about her coping with what she has become, coming back from the grave as a "pure Slayer" as others have just said. Think of the order things have gone in: Season 1) her accepting her role as a Slayer in the first place (especially as played out in Prophecy Girl); 2) learning her duty to slay vamps in spite of the grayness involved with Angel (and other examples, Lie to Me, for one); 3) fighting big-ass pure demons and humans, as well as vamps, and beginning to discover the dark side of Slayers with Faith; 4) not well-illustrated, but confidence issues with being on her own away from her true love and beginning larger responsibilities, not to mention a combination of man, demon and machine in Adam which provokes the 1st Slayer revelation and cements the Prime Trio (X, W, G) to her destiny; 5) further explores Dark Slayer areas as well as the love involved in the Slayer's mission, not to mention fighting a God of all things. The way she's fought the big bads, in order, are 1) simple Slayer strength and will, confidence being the big thing, 2) ditto plus alliances and an intense adherence to her duty, 3) ingenuity, teamwork, and a lotta fertilizer, 4) magic and the combination of the main 4 (relation to the 4 elements), 5) a Troll hammer, stronger and more specialized alliances, and pure selflessness and love. I'm wondering, everyone is wondering about Spike's ability to love, but with the talk of Buffy possibly being soulless, wouldn't that negate her ability to love? Like she lost it all when she dove into the portal? (Back in Intervention, the 1st Slayer addressed Buffy by "you", no reference to humanity or Slayerness. That could be very well different now) Anyway, it almost seems like as Spike is progressively moving towards the Light, Buffy is getting darker, going toe to toe with him. Could this be a balancing of the Force? When there is no difference between Slayers and vampires and they cease to exist? These are all ponderings. Please, debate me on this and tell me where corrections need be made. LtDR!

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 9:25 a.m. CST

    Where S6 Is Going?

    by RogerOThornhill

    A number of people posted the "Buffy's all Slayer" theory back in the fall, and it is not necessarily incompatible with the "Buffy has no soul" theory. (It could also pay off on those "Restless" and "BvD" hints about Buffy's nature.) Two implications seem looming for the rest of the season. First, if for some reason Buffy's soul needs to be restored, someone will have to do it. Are we going to let Willow back doing magic? Is Tara even going to be alive? Can we trust Amy? Interesting implications. And why might Buffy's soul need to be restored? That's my second speculation. If Buffy is now soulless, or in some other way susceptible to chipped Spike, she might also be susceptible to the Troika, who (as people have mentioned) have science, magic, and demons at their disposal. As the spoilers on "Dead Things" suggest, Warren has no problems turning a woman into a sexual plaything and then discarding her. When they said at the beginning of the season that they should hypnotize Buffy and make her their sex slave, it sounded like a joke. Ha ha. It isn't. Warren is a sick bastard, and if he (and possibly his associates)somehow manage to make a feral Slayer their thrall, they become a pretty formidable Big Bad. And the Scoobs would have to spend the back six episodes neutralizing a feral, thralled Buffy. Pretty damn grim.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 10:39 a.m. CST

    by Psynapse

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 10:54 a.m. CST

    DARK EYES: Willow's magic....FROM THE BEGINNING

    by Psynapse

    Quite a few people seem to think Oz leaving started Willow down a dark path with magic....WRONG, VERY WRONG. Point 1) Amy's mom (a VERY nasty dark witch) exhibited that spooky "Dark-eyes" effect herself when using her magic. Point 2) In "Becoming" Giles tries to dissuade Willow from attempting the spell as he warns her "You may find you've opened a door you can't close" Point 3) The "Soul return" was Willow's first major spell AND resulted in the "dark eyes" effect for her. Point 4) EVERY major spell that Willow has invoked has "Dark eyed" her EVERY time. Final point: Joss has known from Season 1 that Willow would go the route she has and he has something NONE of us suspects planned for her.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 11:14 a.m. CST

    just hot pocketed my ass

    by theshlong

    whats wrong with Buffy, its said to be the worst possible news for her and the best possible news for Spike. My bet is that Buffy is now imortal/ eternal/ live forever sort of thing.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 12:04 p.m. CST

    Psynapse where do you get the info from on willow

    by sundown

    about Joss plans for her? Good one Shlong once again I complement you. Buffy immortal would be interesting.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 4:32 p.m. CST

    Sundown.....

    by Psynapse

    I must confess to presuming based on every interview I've seen or read on the man. With the added bonus of being able to burn through an entire season in less than a month thanks to FX re-runs, I can now claim to have seen EVERY EPISODE at least twice, if not 3 times. Joss writes the plot overviews for each season and has shown us quite a few times that the hints are all there if you know where to look. I just think "Addict-Willow" and "Evil-Willow" are too obvious. I don't claim to know what the third option is, just that I'm sure there is one.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 5:26 p.m. CST

    hhmmmmaaagggrrrhhh!!!!!!

    by Bloke A

    Two days till the new series of BTVS starts here in Blighty and i can't contain my excitement. It days like this when I wish I could sleep for 48 eight hours.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 8:27 p.m. CST

    damn

    by punto

    that episode was sooooooooo boring.. no tara.. it was like season 2 or something. Anyway, my "what's wrong with buffy?" theory is very similar to the "she has no soul" theory. I say she is still dead, and some other demon took her body and memories when they did that spell. Just like when a person turns into a vampire, only this demon can walk into the sunlight. So that would put her into the whole argument about spike/angel's ability to love.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 8:45 p.m. CST

    what's with all the water?

    by Spidey_88

    Why is Willow drinking her way through this episode???

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 10:18 p.m. CST

    What the #*&@?!!!!!?

    by screamsteve72

    Am I the only buffy fan that missed tonights episode for some basketball game. I figured they would just air it right after-- but no they show an episode of the frickin' Hugleys. This blows. UPN can kiss my ass. I mean I've waited like a month for a new episode then they screw me over. anyone else feel my hatred.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 10:44 p.m. CST

    No longer Going Thru The Motions

    by Wicked Willow

    Buffy whistling that certain tune as she left Doris the social worker in shambles(that lady was a little too easy to push over the edge)was not just an in-joke,IMHO-it was a subtle hint of Buffy's getting back into the business of living. Maybe now,she'll start taking of Dawn(poor girl's been thru alot)and figuring out what's what. She should also deal with the Spike situation(loved the whole "see-no-evil" sexcapades-Best line:"Hey,that's cheating."). Sure,he enjoyed himself but he refused to let Buffy get away with having her cake and eating it too(stop right there with the smarmy jokes,people-I know how that sounds). Who's not surpised that Warren tried to kill Buffy(and will probaly kill Katrina if the spoilers are correct)? I hated that bastard since he appeared on IWMTLY and hope he gets what's coming to him and it's not hugs and puppies!!! Oh,and is it just me or does Buffy seem to have her happiest moments when she's under a spell or otherwise affected? Right from Season 1 in "The Witch",Buffy was giddy from Amy's mother's spell,Season 4,"Something Blue",she was all sweetsmiley in love with Spike,this year,"Tabula Rasa",she enjoyed being Joan and tonight's episode,Buffy went to town and partied on,invisiable style. Hmmm, does this mean anything or just some TB ramble?

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 10:03 p.m. CST

    Re: Why Is Willow Drinking Water Throughout This Episode?

    by EricAlan69

    Well, to continue the addiction metaphor, alcohol withdrawl (remember all the shakes she was talking about) also leaves one insanely dehydrated, so I felt that was just another portrayal of that aspect of her 'recovery'. // e.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 11:30 p.m. CST

    the only reason this

    by thewoodpecker

    is less painful then watching the decline of Moonlighting is that we occasionally get new episodes. This episode was boring and unfunny when it seemed to try ot be the reverse. One other thing: PLEASE GIVE XANDER AND ANYA SOMETHING TO DO BESIDES PLAN THEIR FUCKING WEDDING!! The jokes are old and stale. My two favorite people in the show almost exclusively stuck inside the store for how many episodes, their chemistry wasted. This sucks. I'm actually to the point of wanting to watch the re-runs on FX then the new shit. I'm going to cry now.......

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 11:05 p.m. CST

    Herc Reasons That Buffy Chops Her Hair In Reference To Susan Rut

    by EricAlan69

    ....(well, he more or less *implies* it above), but I thought that was more of a reaction to Spike's complimenting her on her hair/playing with it, etc..... // e.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 11:10 p.m. CST

    And Another Thing....Regarding That Rumoured Upcoming Sex-Scene

    by EricAlan69

    ....it actually almost sounds plausible now, after I've seen Spike doing, ahem, 'push-ups' for Xander's (and Buffy's) benefit....Hmmmmm. Kinky Invisible Sexual Penetration With Voyeurism On UPN Tonight! WooHoo! // e.

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 11:10 p.m. CST

    Its Magic Weed!!

    by screamsteve72

    luckily they ended up playing the episode at 10. im glad it was because it was a really cool episode. im glad that the buffster has finally found out who's behind all the weird occurences. glad that willows didnt do any magic but still kinda hoping she'll be the big bad (which now looks like it definely wont be happening). and buffy does look damn adorable with her new hair. God I wish I was Spike!!!!

  • Jan. 8, 2002, 11:28 p.m. CST

    Is it my imagination....

    by iloveryan

    ....or is Xander losing weight? (<SIGH!> Sure wish I could!)

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 12:03 a.m. CST

    The show is getting old.

    by cooper2000

    I think Joss would be stupid to let Buffy go on for more than 7 seasons. The show is showing its age already. Hopefully hes learned a lesson from seeing Trek dragged into the ground and X-files gone on way past its welcome. Tonights episode was lackluster, contrived and jevenile. Thats not what I expect from Buffy. I am losing my respect for Buffy and Spike as he continues to treat him badly and the almighty Spike taking it. Joss, the show neads work. Instead of deveoping comic books and spinoffs, tend to your baby.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 12:22 a.m. CST

    *Rediscovering* old friends....

    by Smugbug

    I liked the ending of tonight&#39;s ep. As for the discussion over Buffy&#39;s aparrent loss of soul - it certainly looked like to me she still has it. Her and Willow&#39;s talk after the "no show" Buffy thang was nice. It showed that these two are still close friends. And Buffy stating how the idea of &#39;disolving" seemed devastating was a hint that Buffy is indeed Buffy. Yeah, it was kinda slow and the nerds seemed more like a annoying presence than welcome comic foibles. But the script needed someone to turn on that invisible ray. I have to say again I liked seeing Buffy and Willow confiding to each other again and also nice to see Willow and Xander doing some "scooby" work together (will just a bit of it) again. Maybe I&#39;m just sentimental schmuck at heart. Gosh. darnit. Anywhoos. I&#39;m still wary of the whole Buffy/Spike pairing. Allthough I do believe Spike to love Buffy. I still don&#39;t trust the bloke.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 12:32 a.m. CST

    Great episode w/ Spike the Tanning Vampire [nhph]

    by It's A Duck

    I swear, they&#39;re not even trying anymore. He might as well be sunning himself on a beach. I guess I can buy the theory that some vamps have specialized powers of resistance. Maybe there&#39;s a vamp that thinks a cross is just a t, so he&#39;s unaffected. **** Helluva funny episode all around. Gotta love Buffy&#39;s yelp of surprise as Spike resumes his exercises.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 12:44 a.m. CST

    Did Warren call Johnathan "Frodo"?

    by MGTHEDJ

    And did anyone see a commercial for Mobile Suit Gundam models? Now, I must quibble with Dawn&#39;s freak-out scene. What was that? It played severly forced, especially after a 5 week lay-off. In other news, it was reported Buffy would only have 3 eps. in February sweeps. This decision by UPN may be influenced by the Olympics. They will air in Feb. Also by airing 6.10 early this would leave one ep short for Feb. In closing, Nice ep. 3 stars-----later-----m

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 12:58 a.m. CST

    cooper 2000

    by buggeration

    naked invisible sex matey boy. where else can you get to see (tee hee) that kind of business and have people talk about drugs too on American tv. Joss Whedon is still pushing the envelope and having a damn good laugh at the same time. oh why don&#39;t you go and watch Sex in the City or something and stop your crying. Buffy is still great even if she has gone all Felicity with her hair.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 12:58 a.m. CST

    my god! could that episode have sucked anymore??????????

    by inkymae

    the worst buffy episode ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 1:21 a.m. CST

    Reason For "Gone"

    by R_Nathan

    It seemed that the purpose of "Gone" probably was to give Gellar some time off. Does anyone know if she had to do some re-shoots on "Scooby Doo"?

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 1:32 a.m. CST

    it wasn&#39;t that bad

    by js2260

    It wasn&#39;t that bad, someone i don&#39;t think buffy would have done all that stuff while invisible, but oh well. Also, what&#39;s with the off camera playing with other peoples privates. Like in the begining of the episode, when spike&#39;s hand moves &#39;south&#39; on buffy and she makes her little noise. Not that i&#39;m complaining, but they have been doing that a lot, i guess i&#39;ve just never seen it in a tv show before

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 1:52 a.m. CST

    Where&#39;s the Watcher&#39;s Council?

    by WilliamKnights

    Is it me, or does it seem mighty strange that the Wathcer&#39;s Council has been non-existent for a while now. You would think that with all the things that have happened to Buffy, The Council would at least be curious as to what to do with this obviously rogue slayer. Also what if all this dying and coming back to life is affecting the universe or something. Maybe some divine intervention has to do with Buffy "coming back wrong". All i know is that this season is awfully slow. But i have faith in Joss; i think he will turn it around.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 2:08 a.m. CST

    "Going through the Motions"

    by dickfitz

    Am I the only one who&#39;s going to point out that Buffy was whistling "GTTM" from "OM,WF" when she walked away from the socialist services agent?

  • I think they&#39;re running out of creative ideas, unless this ep was designed solely to demonstrate the super-increased Id in Buffy. It seems like such a sharp contrast from the duty-and-responsibility Buffy from just last season. Furthermore, for all the B/S-ship talk out there, I think this was proof that Spike&#39;s a bit better than some opinions put him at. Also, for everyone noticing the minimal X & A, their wedding ep is going to put them front and center with everyone else in the background, shit&#39;s gonna fly and put them in new roles which will garner them some meatier storylines, and I&#39;m guessing some seriously meaty ones if they allowed half the season to pass before something happened. Is it just me, or is a theme developing where immaturity=Evil? A few other random things: could Dawn be Buffy&#39;s only link to her humanity if in fact it is gone (being made from her and all)?, and, could Buffy and the rest have lost a part of their minds since Giles is gone (he was the Sophus, or mind part of that spell in Primevil), and somehow he could prevent something wrong from happening with X&A (Restless reading)? Eh well. So-so, ep, even for Buffy. LtDR.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 4:34 a.m. CST

    Hey Time Tripper

    by Duke Lacrosse

    News for you -- Your adulthood seems to be just as nerdy. I can&#39;t see sex with an invisible Buffy as anything but a turn on, and that whole thing about Spike watching his penis disappear? When you have sex with someone in real life, the same thing happens. It&#39;s the craziest thing -- check it out sometime.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 8:41 a.m. CST

    The Slide

    by MelloGold

    Buffy is still the best hour on tv. What concearns me is the steady decline in quality and the loss of focus. Watching the reruns on FX It becomes obvious to me that this show has seen better days. Despite some strong episodes I think the show has been incosistent in quality since the Scoobies graduated. "Gone" seemed like lackluster filler. Please please please make the graphic B/S sex scenes a bit less well...graphic. Watching Spike clench his asscheeks beneath the sheets while he screws invisaBuffy was uncomfortable and let&#39;s face it....kinda gross. A few good things about "Gone" were seeing a hint of the old Willow. It was fun to see the group work together. These people hardly seem to be friends anymore. I always loved the Buffy/Willow friendship dynamic. Instead of gimmicks and hokey sex scenes this show needs a return to the great writing and real emotions that made it so awesome. I say kill Anya and Dawn ( Jesus, Did Dawn overact in that scene in the kitchen or what???). Dawn is an awful charachther who should never have been introduced. BTW, I love the new haircut.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 9:48 a.m. CST

    Why Buffy chopped her hair.

    by RobRed1

    Why did Buffy chop her hair? Becausse Buffy didn&#39;t want to be Buffy anymore. It&#39;s a classic reaction women have when their completely fed-up, disgusted, emotionally overwhelmed by life, etc. to go and get a make-over including a totaly different haircut. Next time, try asking your girlf...oh...right... ;-)

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 11:05 a.m. CST

    Yes, Warren called Jonathan "Fordo"......

    by Smugbug

    and I got a chuckle out of that. Hey, anyone notice the Hotpocket commercials BEFRE Buffy? And the Gundam commercial was pretty cool. Geez. Remember the days when, while watching Buffy, you never noticed the commercials? Hmmmm...what could this mean?

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 11:05 a.m. CST

    ooops, I meant "Frodo"

    by Smugbug

    damn....it&#39;s time for me to get more coffee......

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 12:35 p.m. CST

    How much of James Marsters can be shown

    by Chocky

    on regular TV??? Ye gods, even I felt a little bit ashamed. A little too porno. At this point I&#39;d rather see some affectionate cuddling. Shots of him that reveal he&#39;s been waxing his treasure trail should be saved for magazine fold-outs (wish I&#39;d had a poster of Spike when I was a teenager! Simon Le Bon with his tire hanging out over his leather pants would&#39;ve been trashed in a minute).

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 1:26 p.m. CST

    I give it a C+

    by 93curr

    It&#39;s just a shame that we&#39;re getting such a light-hearted season one-type episode in the middle of a batch of reruns. Coming directly after Smashed and Wrecked and going into a batch of more depressing fare later in the season (presumably) it kind of works as a bridge episode (Buffy finally fighting for her life, kind of) but not so much siting by its lonesome. You have to build up some kind of hope before you send her crashing to Earth again. The cynical part of me did spend an awful lot of time during the show thinking that D Fury had written himself the easiest episode imaginable to debut his directorial skills. A fight scene between four invisible people? And why would someone enjoying being invisible keep talking to helself out loud? Doesn&#39;t it defeat the purpose? Reminded me a little too much of the Sabrina The Teenage Witch inmpersonations at the Bronze in Smashed. (Surely the &#39;pudding effect&#39; couldn&#39;t be too much of a danger or the troika wouldn&#39;t have been planning to use it on themselves?) If nothing else, at least we got to see what Buffy looks like naked and invisible. If we&#39;d gotten a shot of Willow naked and invisible I might have upgraded to a B, but I takes what I&#39;m given. I&#39;m warning the powers that be, though, we&#39;d better be getting back to the misery, depression and frustration damn soon. I expect at least one more shot of Willow huddled in a fetal position, crying her eyes out before this season&#39;s over.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 1:32 p.m. CST

    Has it occurred to anyone...

    by ms.pointy

    Did anyone notice(those who actually got to SEE Tuesday&#39;s ep) that Xander seemed a little suspicious of Spike&#39;s "exercises", and just may have put 2 and 2 together and come up with invisible naked Buffy in bed with Spike? If he did, he might have had the presence of mind(I know, it&#39;s rare with Xander, but it happens)not to embarrass her then and there, or was too freaked to confront her coherently. It seemed to me that Buffy&#39;s wild behavior was due to the start of her deterioration. Higher brain functions are usually the first to go.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 1:43 p.m. CST

    Funny workplace carnage

    by wilbur gray

    I guess since terrorism plots are now taboo,it&#39;s now okay to make light of people going apeshit and slaughtering their co-workers.Invisible Buffy&#39;s "kill them all" taunts to the well-meaning social worker were another indication of this show&#39;s losing direction.Would the Buffy of "Earshot" have risked putting someone over the edge? What made this series special was the way it&#39;s supernatural theme was grounded in a reality viewers could relate to,not a dream world where nerds could turn invisible or freeze people.Also,did I miss the episode where Willow and Buffy dropped out of college?

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 2:20 p.m. CST

    Wilbur Gray -Willow not in college?

    by 93curr

    What? She specifically mentioned while making the omelet (tte? -are eggs male or female?) that she wasn&#39;t going to class today. Why else would Buffy let them (now, just her) live at the house rent-free (presumably). Pay attention, dammit. We have standards to uphold.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 2:54 p.m. CST

    Spike&#39;s Exercises

    by Lisel

    I&#39;m sorry to go off the intelligent commentary track here but could James Marsters have any better of a body?? GOOD GRIEF!! I say more naked Spike please... Okay, now that I got that off my chest - I loved the scene with Xander and Spike. "What does it look like I&#39;m doing, you nit?" Funny! I also think it shows that Xander actually feels comfortable with Spike, and I believe he trusts him now. That says a lot about Spike&#39;s change because Xander was his toughest critic. To win Xander over is a hard thing to do... I&#39;m not saying he likes the guy but they have a definite rapport (or call it what you will). Plus, how he handled the whole thing with Buffy - telling her to leave... Joss definetely has plans for Spike, and I don&#39;t think it includes resorting back to evil. Spike always calls Buffy on the choices she makes and doesn&#39;t make it so easy for her. I&#39;ve said it before and I&#39;ll say it again - he treats her better than she treats him. And you mentioned communication before, Sundown - I notice that Spike is always trying to communicate with her. She normally just pushes him away - i.e. when he tried to talk to her after the social worker left. He is also a good listener - always has been. I like the way his clothing is changing to reflect his change - he no longer wears the black fingernail polish and he is actually wearing other colors now than black. He actually was dressed nice on last night&#39;s episode - button down shirt and jeans. I&#39;m willing to bet my crackpipe that he becomes something more than most of you expect. Watch the dream episode again...

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 3:01 p.m. CST

    freedomofspeech -assignment of blame

    by 93curr

    I hardly think that Marti Noxon or anyone at Mutant Enemy is to blame for this one -I&#39;m aiming my hate-filled evil-eye stare at UPN alone. Remember, Wrecked was moved up to the end of the last batch of new episodes, and now we&#39;re hearing that they&#39;re moving some episode space in Feb sweeps to allow for the olympic coverage. I seriously doubt that ME knew the exact broadcast dates when the episodes were scripted. I agree that the episode seems a little lightweight by itself, but then I thought that about some of the ones in season four until the whole thing was over and I sat down and watched all 22 hours in one sitting. Since the show moved from being a Kolchak/Night Stalker &#39;monster-of-the-week&#39; thing to a continuing &#39;Dark Shadows&#39; storyline thing it&#39;s like reading a novel in ten-page installments. Both &#39;Gone&#39; and &#39;Doublemeat Palace&#39; will make more sense (unless I&#39;m completely deluding myself) in the context of giving us a breather before the last half. Personally, I&#39;ll be happy when Buffy and Angel move to HBO and we can see the whole season&#39;s offerings without reruns once a week, like The Sopranos or Oz. On a whole other topic, I&#39;m not particularly concerned about Xander&#39;s opinion re: Buffy/Spike. The man dated Cordelia, for God&#39;s sake. I&#39;m far more looking forward to when Angel finds out.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 4:02 p.m. CST

    Lisel regarding Spike also a note to freedom of speech

    by sundown

    A little hesitant to post since the orderis wrecked. But last things first. I&#39;ve seen Alias 24 and Six Feet Under and don&#39;t think the quality is far above most WB shows let alone Buffy. Sopranos on the other hand has the same pyschotic attention to detail. I&#39;d be hard pressed to say anything is better than that show. NYPD Blue is another show that has kicked ass for years despite tons of people leaving. In fact Sipowitz and Buffy have a lot in common. As for Spike I&#39;ll say that he seems more at ease but these are comedy episodes. Xander was the one to feel sorry for the Spike when he lost the Buffybot and was tortured. At the same time he liked Riley and hated Angel because he does like nice guys which is why he hasn&#39;t been in love with Spike. To have characterization that shows him as not being an insane lunatic means virtually nothing in a "Buffy light" episode. In the end the theme he is working with and the turning point episodes are what count. The rest are just herrings of a red nature. So you girls might be mesmerized by Spikes stomach but those that pay attention still notice that Buffys relationship with him is very unhealthy (she seems to get off on doing Spike in front of Xander because she knows he wouldn&#39;t approve...thats just demented!!!) and it is messing her up bad. With Willow being wonky (but making a comeback) and Xanders head up his ass I think Dawn is the moral compass of the show. B does need a kick in the ass for all the stupid stuff she is doing. Hell a redeemed Faith would rock right about now as well. But her self destruction complex and seemingly oblivious take on her situation needs to change quick and if Dawn getting hurt didn&#39;t do it something really big will need to happen. And as for Joss plans for Spike as much as you might like it this show isn&#39;t called Spike the Vampire but Buffy the Vampire Slayer so whatever needs to be done to get Buffy where she needs to be will be done. This isn&#39;t about Spikes arc but hers. So we&#39;ll pass the pipe around and see where we are in about six or seven episodes. It does seem to keep people guessing and I wonder if the bashers who find the show predictable would wager their stomach against what will happen next...with a hot pocket?? Ham and cheese? hmmm....

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 6:39 p.m. CST

    Where was the lighter? etc.

    by Miriam

    1)Didn&#39;t Buffy throw that lighter into a box? So how did it get in her pants? 2) How long has it been since Spike sat on her couch? Last time I remember was when Joyce was alive. 3) I thought the episode was badly written and badly filmed. It dragged, Buffy&#39;s voice never seemed to originate from the right place, the invisible chair seemed to enlarge, as did Jonathan, when re-visibled, etc. And I like Dave Fury. 4) I want to keep liking this show, but I can&#39;t . There is little or no kindness, romance, empathy or real communication. There used to be. Compare season 1 Buffy with Dawn, now about the same age. Buffy was loving, Dawn is a narcississtic brat. Spike is the most empathic person, by far, but that is when he is not hitting Buffy. Sheesh.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 7:05 p.m. CST

    I agree with you Sundown and.....

    by Smugbug

    First of all: To a question that was asked regarding Spike&#39;s lighter: Obviously, Buffy took it out of the box and put it into her pocket. In other words, she didn&#39;t throw it away. I didn&#39;t find this ep to be "badly written". I think we&#39;re all missing the boat here. This season is about maturing. And during the time when I was "maturing" I made mistakes, dealt with the consequences, and learned by them (hopefully). Buffy is going to have to deal with the consequences of her dalliances with Spike. And yes it is a unhealthy pairing. Buffy knows this - and I have a feeling Spike knows this, too. Why does he get all pouty-upset when Buffy has to go back to help the Scoobs? He should be accepting of Buffy&#39;s friends and her loyalty to them. But he ain&#39;t. I still question his loyalty. Some of you think that since he "listens" to Buffy, it shows his love and devotion to her. I say - <<<<<sound of buzzer<<<<<nice try - but let&#39;s look at this. Angel LOVED Buffy so much, he was willing to walk away to let her live her life - he knew that a immortal vampire and a vampire slayer wouldn&#39;t have a good chance at a long lasting relationship. He has some sense and cared for Buffy. And those close to her. I say this: I question the validity of Spike&#39;s feelings.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 7:08 p.m. CST

    Spike The Vampire, What???

    by Lisel

    Sundown, I know that the show is called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" - I wasn&#39;t trying to say otherwise. Although while the show has always centered around Buffy (and still does) it has always been very much an ensemble show. That&#39;s what makes it stand out from other shows - it has a very strong cast of characters who support Buffy. Some of these characters are gone and I just think out of the ones who are left, Spike is one of the most interesting and complex. Not to mention, now that Giles is gone Buffy really needs somone to be her moral compass and I can tell you it sure as hell isn&#39;t Dawn. I think that Dawn is a brat and highly annoying. She has been from the start... Her character at this point has nothing to do other than get rescued every other day. Now will the writers change that? Sure, I hope so... And the fact that Buffy was getting off on being there with Spike without Xander knowing was part of the reason Spike threw her out - he didn&#39;t like it either. I just feel that Buffy&#39;s character arc and growth are going to have a lot to do with Spike - and hopefully Xander, Dawn, and Willow as well. I do think these friends need to re-bond and it seems last night was a good start. I guess we&#39;ll toke up and see...

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 8:19 p.m. CST

    Beggerton

    by cooper2000

    buggeration, I am a huge fan of Buffy and was not happy with the episode so my punishment is to go watch Sex and the City? Ha? I think we deserve more than the Nerds of Doom and the forced humor there. We deserve more than Buffy ditzing Spike every episode and then going and fucking him. Spike was a great character until he lost his backbone. Theres not structure recently, just a scene here and a scene there, Its as if these people had never written dialogue before. The whole Social Worker seemed like it was from a old Eight is Enough episode and all the invisibility shenanigans with Buffy did seem out of character. Could it be Josh used to go over the scripts before they made it to the air and now hes not because hes to busy with all the other stuff? Dont get me wrong, I still enjoy the show but it is not the show I remember. Even Alias has kicked Buffys butt in quality this season. Time to pick up the pieces and get back to good storytelling.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 9:40 p.m. CST

    Finally someone agrees with me about Spike

    by TheHorn

    Thanks SmugBug, I just want to ask if anyone else thought it was strange that Willow was so tempted to use her power to avoid waiting for a computer search and so she wouldn&#39;t have to get up to get a book but when she was in trouble she didn&#39;t seem to even think about it. Didn&#39;t make sense to me.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 10:20 p.m. CST

    what buffy is becoming

    by dwam0

    The fact that this has become Buffy - No Vampire Slayer, can&#39;t be a mistake. I think it has less to do with bad writing or her immaturity as it has to do with something others have brought up - the redemption of vampires. How can she keep killing them all if she knows that some can change? I think there will come a time where she will give the vampires a "live right or die" kind of choice, with those who choose to help her also becoming Vampire fighters. Maybe in her confusion about her new role she has taken to loving Spike in the wrong way. And let&#39;s talk about the Vampier situation in Sunnyvale. I thought the Halloween episode, with the high school vampires, showed that Vampirism had run amock with Buffy gone. I actually felt bad for the kids that got killed because they have have been unwilling victims of vampire attacks. Buffy may not be doing her job because that&#39;s not the way she&#39;s supposed to do the job anymore.

  • Jan. 9, 2002, 10:41 p.m. CST

    Marster&#39;s Template for Spike

    by Mr. Smegma

    I swear, go back and watch the beginning of the old Outer Limits ep The Sixth Finger with David McCallum as the snotty, young Welsh coal miner Gwyllm Griffiths about to fast-forward thru evolution. The accent isn&#39;t quite the same but the mannerisms are dead-on. (no pun......)

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 12:53 a.m. CST

    BUFFY FAN CLUB OF HOUSTON

    by ruyen

    Email us if interested in being on the mailing list with other Houston fans of Buffy. It is a way for people to meet other Buffy fans to talk and hang out with. Regular (small) newsletters are planned as well. ------------------------------------- The Buffy Fan Club of Houston buffyfch@hotmail.com -ruyen Email me at my personal address for any questions: allhollow@hotmail.com PS: The first newsletter (email) will be coming out soon.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 2:51 a.m. CST

    Just you wait

    by Ryvver2

    I love how everyone becomes an instant expert critic when an episode doesn&#39;t follow what she/he thinks in his/her head SHOULD be the next step. You can choose to view this episode as "stupid", "silly", "light-hearted", and "filler" as much as you want, but I&#39;ve learned to trust Joss and his team and am willing to bet that there&#39;s more "dark" and "heavy" to this episode than you guys realize. It hasn&#39;t been thrown in for no good reason...in fact, this episode got me rather excited and even a little scared about what&#39;s to come. I know there have been rumors that Willow will end up being the Big Bad of this season...but more than once our little Willow has been nicknamed "Red" (by Faith, by Spike, etc.) and I&#39;m thinking she&#39;s as red as red can be...a big fat red herring, that is. Last night&#39;s "comedy" episode actually scared me a little with how Buffy&#39;s morality seems to be slipping...taunting innocent people (a little cruelly, in fact), boning Spike (who is still evil, in spite of being neutered), sluffing off her responsibilities (research, her nemeses, etc.), buckling under pressure (can&#39;t even keep her resolve about Spike)...she only gets worried when she learns she might die. I&#39;m thinking something is in the works here. A transformation (haircut being a physical manifestation), if you will. Willow seems to be getting better, admirably resisting weakness...rising to the occasion...while Buffy may just be sinking before our eyes. After all, we don&#39;t even know what Buffy IS anymore...couldn&#39;t she end up being evil? Stick that in your spaghetti and twirl it. Is Buffy going to be the Big Bad? I don&#39;t know about you, but I&#39;m anxious to see. This episode made me excited...

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 4:33 a.m. CST

    What if Buffy isn&#39;t evil or not human?

    by theBigBAd

    Think about what Giles said before Buffy went to pick up the weapon that she defeated Glory with at the end of Season 5. He said before she went to pick up the War Hammer that it was a weapon that could only be picked up and used by a god or goddess. So what if Buffy isn&#39;t evil or human but is a god. It would explain where she was when she died and why Spike could hgit her without feeling any sharp pains from the Chip. Also anther hypathetical situation. There is a rumor going that Riley might be coming back married. What if he came back married to Drusilla and they were the True Big Bad. It would setup a few interesting things. Just a thought.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 8:39 a.m. CST

    Anyone Uploaded the Buffy Episoide.

    by Nirces

    Has anyone recorded and uploaded the buffy epsoide, I can&#39;t get UPN and would like to see it.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 10:36 a.m. CST

    Alternate Possibility

    by mflem920

    I&#39;ve read a bunch of posts on this thread about how Buffy doesn&#39;t seem to kill vampires anymore. And I agree that onscreen we don&#39;t see her taking out that many vamps nowadays. But she does go on patrol just about every night and on average we aren&#39;t privy to her actions for 6/7 nights of the week. Is it possible she&#39;s doing her slayerly duties off camera and they simply choose not to show them because the hundreds of random vampire slayings she still does do not serve to advance the plot? Think about it.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Episode 6.13

    by JT Styler

    The problem with no big bad this season so far is that there is no obvious direction. I for one live in England but I follow the episodes over the net. While I think season 6 is merely a setup for season 7 which has to be the last season (I don&#39;t want this show going all x-files), hopefully it will get better. And I read a spoiler about what Spike and Buffy get up to in the Bronze and it petrifies me. I don&#39;t think I can watch Buffy or even Spike demeaned like that. It is a very nasty scene and I for one, think that there is already too much needless and pointless sex on Buffy anyway. What the fuck is up with the writers? This scene best not make it to air cos I will switch off at that point. The Styler has spoken. Let the people know.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 12:06 p.m. CST

    NYPD blues is kicking 24s ass

    by sundown

    because it is a far better show and 24 was way over rated. 24 almost shouldn&#39;t even be allowed to finish the whole season but for once Fox bent over for logic. What a pathetic plot. He has to stop an assasination? Never seen that before. I&#39;ll take Gossier over Keifer any day. NYPD blue still manages to be fresh after all these years and all the changes have been great. I love the new LT. Bad Boys was a fav of mine (the original with Clancy and his badass blondefro) and its great to see him get work. Sipowitz is great as always and Franz can act. The stories are pretty compelling and always well done. The one where Andy shot someone and it looked like he was in the wrong last year was excellent. They took the old cliche where you know he&#39;s innocent but for once I really thought he screwed up the way the first half of the show went. Especially with the shows willingness to rip apart characters. To say it doesn&#39;t &#39;deserve&#39; to be on TV with crap like flavor of the second Alias makes me glad you aren&#39;t deciding programming. I wonder wha6t criteris is used to see what deserves to be on TV with shit like the Mole and Survivor and Weakest Link out there? You may not like it just like you may not like Buffy at the moment or whatever, I can&#39;t really get your point but its the mass of fans watching not the internet that decides success...for better or worse.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 1:18 p.m. CST

    Styler, Maybe You Need A New Show

    by Lisel

    You read a spoiler about Buffy and Spike having what? Sex in the Bronze? If a little sex petrifies you then maybe you should go watch a more teen friendly show - say like "Dawson&#39;s Creek"? Oh, wait - that show has a lot of sex too... Hmmm - what about "Felicity"? Oh, right - more sex on that one. Well, Styler I guess you&#39;ll just have to watch "7th Heaven" or "Touched By An Angel". Sex is a part of adult&#39;s lives so get over it already. And if it bothers you that much then I think you should take your own advice and just switch it off. No one&#39;s forcing you to watch.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 1:31 p.m. CST

    Well, sexuality is part of maturing...

    by Smugbug

    or rather exploring your sexual nature. At least for some people. I at least understand why Buffy fell for Riley so quickly (I found it to be rather quick) - maybe to move on from Angel. Now this season is about growing up and the pains associated with it. And I do think that Buffy is exploring some dark areas. And I think coming back from being "flat on her back dead" has something to do with it. We heard her explanation the other night - she wants to feel free. I believe free of pain, free of responsibilities, etc. And granted, she&#39;s going about it rather immaturely. But remember, Buffy is suppose to be what, 20 now? Moving into 21? At least she hasn&#39;t had her 21st b-day celebration to my knowledge. So she should be rather immature right now. She&#39;s been dealing with huge responsibilities since she was 16, having died twice and losing her mom and now being soul gardian of her 15-year old sister. I say some schluffing off of some responsibilities is fine - but then she&#39;s going to have to deal with the consequences. That&#39;s where the maturity part helps. To help learn from the mistakes, and grow. Yeah, the season has been slow and rather disoriented. But growing up is a very disjointed time. We&#39;ve been seeing Buffy for so long as almost "superhero" type of character, that it probably seems odd to have her brought down to earth and deal with some real issues that are not supernatural. Well, even if one of those issues is a vampire.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 6:10 p.m. CST

    Fanboys should NOT watch Buffy...

    by Sabrina

    ...mainly because, to paraphrase Jack Nicholson&#39;s line in "A Few Good Men," you guys can&#39;t HANDLE a grown woman experimenting with her sexuality. Yeah, Angel loved Buffy SO MUCH that he went off and boffed Darla (resulting in little baby Conor), even thought he knew he might turn into Angelus, and thus might kill everyone within a 50-mile radius. Xander still LOVES Buffy so much that he&#39;s been porking an unrepentant ex-vengeance demon for the last two or three years (the first year without actually caring a whit about her). But let Buffy initiate (yeah, SHE initiated it) sex with someone who loves her AND who makes her eyes roll back in her head, then it&#39;s "unhealthy," "wrong," and she&#39;s just a ho. Boys! Please don&#39;t discuss anything about which you have no first-hand information -- it isn&#39;t becoming. Buffy may be guilty about her relationship with Spike, but it&#39;s mostly because she&#39;s full of fear and uncertainty about her life. Once her head clears, she might actually have a chance for a mature, loving relationship with someone who actually sticks by her, instead of pining over the two total wimps (Angel and that lox Riley) who pranced off into the sunset without so much as a by-your-leave.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 6:10 p.m. CST

    Psynapse 123, RE Willow&#39;s DARK EYES

    by Drath

    You might not have been referring to me, but since we both mention Willow and OZ in relation to Willow&#39;s descent, I thought I&#39;d respond. First of all, I&#39;ve been watching from the beginning, I KNOW this show, and the black eyes have been appearing every time someone uses really powerful magic. It doesn&#39;t necessarily mean evil, though it has certainly had bad implications(Willow WAS cursing Angel after all). But regardless, I think you might have misunderstood me--if you were reacting to my post. The point is that Willow advanced with her magic considerably in "Something Blue" because Oz left her. She began using the "super" dark arts versus the more pedestrian variety she&#39;d dabbled in up until then. She embraced the serious magic post-Oz, and I think Tara&#39;s appearance actually staved off the addiction she&#39;s been dealing with recently(notice she really started abusing her magic only after Tara&#39;s accident with Glory). Also notice that Willow&#39;s powers weren&#39;t acknowledged by more powerful demons like the Anya&#39;s boss until she started experimenting in "Something Blue," a trend that&#39;s continued all the way to Sweet in "Once More with Feeling." Now the groundwork for her magical talent was laid long before Oz left, I didn&#39;t mean to suggest otherwise, but you&#39;re wrong if you don&#39;t think Oz&#39;s leaving was a major catalyst in her witchcraft problem. There were other catalysts certianly(like the afore mentioned Glory/Tara scene), and Oz&#39;s coming back wouldn&#39;t change much after everything that&#39;s happened, but do not underestimate that moment in the evolution of Willow&#39;s charcter.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 6:53 p.m. CST

    Gotta love the Evil Nerd Trio

    by Drath

    Those guys just make me laugh. I love how the writers made Warren a sublte shade or two darker than the other nerds. I mean, Jonathan could never be "evil," just irresponsible. And Andrew being a silly watered down version of Tucker works perfectly. Rediculous as it was to train Hell Hounds to attack the Prom, flying monkeys to attack a school play is sublime to rediculous. But Warren is decidedly leading up to something more serious. The rumor that he&#39;ll kill his girlfriend and blame Buffy makes sense since he and the Nerds are all about brushing off responsibility for their actions. The others don&#39;t want to take it as far as Warren though, and maybe there&#39;s still hope for them. Interesting that Willow now knows where to find the Nerds&#39; headquarters. The plot, she is picking up. And they set up Anya&#39;s returning to her vengeance demon ways with the blurb about her boss being invited to the wedding. I no longer think that will be a major big bad development though. They&#39;ve done so little with her this season on a dramatic level that I&#39;d expect her going vengeance demon again will be played mostly just for laughs. Anything too dark might feel wrong with Anya. But I could be wrong.

  • exploring your sexual nature is part of the maturing process. At least for some people. I at least understand why Buffy fell for Riley so quickly (I found it to be rather quick) - maybe to move on from Angel. Now this season is about growing up and the pains associated with it. And I do think that Buffy is exploring some dark areas. And I think coming back from being "flat on her back dead" has something to do with it. We heard her explanation the other night - she wants to feel free. I believe free of pain, free of responsibilities, etc. And granted, she&#39;s going about it rather immaturely. But remember, Buffy is suppose to be what, 20 now? Moving into 21? At least she hasn&#39;t had her 21st b-day celebration to my knowledge. So she should be rather immature right now. She&#39;s been dealing with huge responsibilities since she was 16, having died twice and losing her mom and now being soul gardian of her 15-year old sister. I say some schluffing off of some responsibilities is fine - but then she&#39;s going to have to deal with the consequences. That&#39;s where the maturity part helps. To help learn from the mistakes, and grow. Yeah, the season has been slow and rather disoriented. But growing up is a very disjointed time. We&#39;ve been seeing Buffy for so long as almost "superhero" type of character, that it probably seems odd to have her brought down to earth and deal with some real issues that are not supernatural. Well, even if one of those issues is a vampire.

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 10:54 p.m. CST

    Buffy immortal, and the choice

    by Naia

    Not a god, just immortal. Someone said this already and I think it would be very cool. What would rock though is if somewhere on down the line she got to choose, mortal or immortal. It&#39;s certainly possible in the Buffyverse. She gets to choose and she chooses mortality so that she doesn&#39;t have to watch her friends grow old and die etc. All the Scoobies know and when they find out her choice Spike would be heartbroken. It&#39;d be like she died a third time. He might cry. That would be awful. Oh well, whatever, nevermind. ~Naia

  • Jan. 10, 2002, 11:16 p.m. CST

    Sabrina, You&#39;re My Hero

    by Lisel

    You rule!! I couldn&#39;t have said it better myself... I&#39;m sick of all these guys saying what Buffy is doing is "all wrong" and "unhealthy", as you said. Her sex with Spike has been the best sex of her life and I agree that Spike is the first guy to really stick by her. Although most people think he is selfish for not doing the brave thing, the RIGHT thing, and let her go like Angel did. Oh yeah, and lunkhead Riley left too... Note: That last comment was meant to be sarcastic. I think Spike stays because he loves her... He would have to to put up with all the crap she has given him. And as for SmugBug&#39;s latest post - I agree with you wholeheartedly for once! I think Buffy is a great person - she has always been a great person. But she is growing up and maturing - going through what&#39;s commonly called "growing pains". I think she is trying to figure out what her place is in this world and how to make a life for herself. If all of us could be half the person Buffy is we should call ourselves very lucky. She is a hero but is also a human being - she will not always make the right choices. But she tries to be a good person, a good friend, and maybe someday she&#39;ll even be a good girlfriend to Spike.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 12:21 a.m. CST

    Buffy as Big Bad

    by MKL2112

    I think Ryvver2 posted below (or above depending on where this posts) something about Buffy becoming the Big Bad this season.... By now Willow as Big Bad probably wouldn&#39;t work (Too "obvious," or anyway, Buffy has already had to fight someone she loves who became BB, ie Angel), Big Bad MUST be someone we&#39;ve seen already this season (although Rack hasn&#39;t been on enough to be BB, the Nerds are too comical... [or are supposed to be], and someone like Tara... well, maybe???? Would that be a big deal?...). Plus, every season the BB has been more and more powerful (physically or emotionally against Buffy)... so what&#39;s left after a God? Herself??? Has there been enough forshadowing of Buffy to be the BB (come back wrong, not quite "herself" this season, wanting to be "free," etc.) There has been A LOT of talk about Spike&#39;s character (which can be argued forever... as it has been) but I haven&#39;t seen too much about Buffy possibly being the next Big Bad.... any comments?

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 2:45 a.m. CST

    Buffy being immortal

    by theBigBAd

    If she was a immortal and not a god then she would not have been able to pick up the Warhammer, which takes godlike strength, and be ble to defeat a goddess with it. Plus watch this week&#39;s "Becoming" and you will hear Giles say two things. The First thing is just what I said about the Warhammer and then he tells Ben as he snuffs him out that"she is not like us. She&#39;s different." before anyone else even noticed she was different. He even said it if you remember before she killed herself to save. That said makes me believe that her transformation begun even before her death. Plus if she was immortal then she would not have died at the end of season 5. Just my thoughts. The Big Bad

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 3:22 a.m. CST

    RE: Buffy as Big Bad

    by Thalya

    Just sifting through some of these posts, anyone else think this season could somehow mirror Season 2? Only the problem person with/without a soul could be Buffy herself? If there&#39;s going to be a Supreme Big Bad next season, alot of issues are going to have to be worked out this season, especially those about identity. Another thing about Restless that just came to me too: I&#39;m a big elemental watcher, and the assignations in Primeval might just have to do with how storylines go, and they could all simultaneously go downhill: we&#39;ve already got an absent mind (Sophus) in Giles, Xander could metaphorically get his heart (Animus) ripped out by Anya wedding-wise, and Willow could have her soul (Spiritus) degraded with her black magic addiction. As for Buffy and her hands (Manus), which she says she&#39;ll "never have to use those", her continued downward spiral is bringing her right into her Dark Slayer roots, her rock bottom; she&#39;ll learn of those hands by the end of the season at the very least, if she doesn&#39;t learn to use them (funny how near the end of Restless when B fights the 1st Slayer, they struggle and SPIRAL DOWN a large hill..). Anyone want to speculate on when there&#39;ll be another 1st Slayer sighting?

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 3:36 a.m. CST

    P.S. Way to go Sabrina!

    by Thalya

    Well said, not to mention that if it&#39;s supposedly an "unhealthy" relationship, it&#39;s primarily so because of BUFFY&#39;s behavior, not Spike&#39;s. You guys are just pissed because Spike&#39;s toned down a bit from the psychokiller you utterly adored (not to mention because of the way the show reverses gender roles, she&#39;s acting more like some of the unsavory members of your gender, all interested in unemotional sex!). And you say we girls have unhealthy misconceptions...

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 9:33 a.m. CST

    Why Buffy can&#39;t be immortal:

    by Smugbug

    Because Joss Whedon is writing the comic book, "Fray". And Fray is about a Slayer in the future. The story is that for a long while, there has been no vampires and no reason to call upon a slayer. In Fray&#39;s world, people don&#39;t even know what a vampire is. "Fray" is like another offshoot of Buffy, only in a comic book. Great story and very good art, indeed. I personally don&#39;t believe Buffy is immortal. I believe her "issues" are a little more earth-based. But this last ep we are seeing the "level-headed" Willow of old making a comeback. Oh and regarding women and their sexuality? Remember when Madonna released her "SEX" book? There were some towns, counties that either banned the book and made it so that it was "conveniently" not available in bookstores. This book was done by a woman who chose the content (herself) right down to who would shoot that content. And these states, counties, cities had a problem with that, but not with strip clubs. Hmmm. We do have a problem, still, in this country with women who are in full control of their sexuality. I do admit that.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 10:09 a.m. CST

    hate to rain on your parade but it is unhealthy

    by sundown

    and so was Angels fling with Darla!!!! Were we watching the same show. That was Angel sinking into utter depression and self revulsion with Darla. He nearly raped her! That was not a good thing and he knew it and it was reflected in the immediate storyline! No one romanticized it like you doe eyed chicks (call us fanboys and you shall reap the vengeance)it was evil. And the cleansing of his soul too place as an exact opposite to what would happen if he had sex with someone like Buffy which would be a good thing. See what he did was so vile he actually strengthened his soul. Thats right VILE. Just like Buffy and Spike. One thing you are right about it isn&#39;t at all Spike whos &#39;wrong&#39; in the relationship its BOTH of them cause it takes two to tango. And no I don&#39;t have a problem with a chicks who likes sex but look what Buffy has done since Angel- abused by college scumbag, uses the one guy who was good, falls for a scummy evil God who would sell out a little girl to live and lastly Spike an unrepentent murderer. Great taste there! Thats a girl for all the little ones to idolize who is real in touch with herself. It was so mature the way she let Spike manhandle her in her kitchen. Now enoughs enough! This debate has gone on way too long lets just see how it plays out. PS Sabrina your cat looks fake. Someone had to tell you.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 11:04 a.m. CST

    Good Point dwam0

    by Corbeau

    Eventually I think Buffy will give Vampires a "If you don&#39;t live right I will kill you" message. Like Laurell Hamilton&#39;s vampires. In Laurell Hamilton&#39;s Anita Blake books - Anita Blake fell in love with a vampire and now she can&#39;t simply kill them as she once did. She has to make a choice as to whether they are living ok, or whether they are a threat to humankind. Maybe they&#39;ll "borrow" that from Ms. Hamilton.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 11:11 a.m. CST

    Good sex does not equate to a healthy relationship

    by Smugbug

    Right now, Buffy cannot look at herself in the mirror. Even she knows (and I have said this before) what&#39;s going on between her and Spike is not healthy and not good. Yeah, it&#39;s great sex - but it would be better to leave the bed happy rather than miserable. And she leaves miserable. Spike is manipulating her into thinking she needs him and that he is there ALWAYS there for her. I don&#39;t buy it. He told her "if I can&#39;t have ALL of you, then...." remember? That ain&#39;t a healthy statement, boys and girls. That statement makes me worry as to the true content of Spike&#39;s unbeating heart. Sundown, again - whoa, is this a record? I agree - and I have not been swayed in my belief that the Buffy/Spike pairing is not a healthy one. But as I had stated in my previous posts this is Buffy exploring some untouched areas of her psyche and the outcome of this learning experience is yet to be seen. I wonder how she uses what she learns here? Anyways, it&#39;s her right as a growing, maturing woman to choose whom she sleeps with - but I&#39;m hoping she keeps that distance guard up with Spike.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 11:15 a.m. CST

    Buffy&#39;s Bitch

    by MelloGold

    First of all I do agree with Sabrina. The old double standard sucks ass. We expect Buffy to be beyond human flaws but superwoman or no, she is still a woman and a young woman at that. She is entitled to make mistakes. As a poster noted she is only 20 years old! I like that she isnt a holier than thou persona because her flaws humanize her... and lets face it perfection is pretty fucking boring. My only other comments are Spike is becoming a spineless bitch and UPN I can&#39;t believe you have the balls to reshow last season episodes after 1 new episode. That rips. You people are pissing me off.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 11:46 a.m. CST

    I have the first season DVD!!!

    by hair1212

    I ordered it 4 months ago, and it is here before it&#39;s even released!!! OK, I&#39;ve been lurking here for a while now and have decided to come out of the closet. When BTVS first started I had no access, and being a person who doesn&#39;t like to start things in the middle, I didn&#39;t watch it at all. Then an amazing thing happened. I was at work (major retail chain) and a one tv on the wall o&#39; tv&#39;s was on WB. My first BTVS was Spike declaring his love for Buffy! I watched the rest of season 5 off and on and when BTVS moved to UPN I could watch all the time! Woohoo!!! I&#39;ve been learning a lot through synopsis, talkbacks and the new Buffy magazine, but nothing prepared me for how truly awesome this show really is. I sat and watched the first 8 episodes all in a row last night, am about to watch all the special features when I finish here, and tonight I will be watching 9-12. I am sooooo happy!

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 2 p.m. CST

    Sundown And Smugbug, This Is My Final Answer

    by Lisel

    Smugbug - first off I&#39;m going to have to hit the "bullshit buzzer" on you. Spike saying "If I can&#39;t have all of you..." was NOT unhealthy - it was actually just the opposite. If Spike were truly a scum who just wanted to bang a slayer he wouldn&#39;t have cared if she was invisible or whatever else. He threw her out because that wasn&#39;t what he wanted - "The only reason you&#39;re here is because you&#39;re NOT here...". He wants her to be with him because she wants to, because she has feelings for him and isn&#39;t ashamed to be seen with him. Sorry, but I think that&#39;s pretty damn healthy of him. And as for Sundown&#39;s comments on Buffy - I will repeat what I said in an earlier post. Buffy is a wonderful human being - a true hero. She is a good friend, sister, and daughter (to her mom and Giles). She is also a good girlfriend - she was really good to Angel, it was his choice to leave remember? And she was also a good girlfriend to Riley - she just wasn&#39;t in love with him. That doesn&#39;t make her a bad person. She has dedicated her life to saving and protecting others from harm - since she was 15 years old! That is a huge responsibility so give the girl a break if she isn&#39;t perfect. She might be the slayer but she is also a human being who is becoming a woman. And I can&#39;t believe you would bring up that total jerk who used Buffy, and every other girl, just to get laid. HE was the scumbag - not Buffy. She thought he was kind and caring so if you want to fault her then fault her for being too trusting, for believing in people just a little too much. Same thing with Ben... As far as Buffy knew he was a kind, caring doctor who took care of her mother and was good to her sister. She doesn&#39;t always make the right choices but I admire the person she is, and the person she is becoming.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 3:44 p.m. CST

    once again Lisel you missed and proved my point

    by sundown

    I brought up that guy for two reasons 1)to show Buffy bad taste or the fact she can be tricked easy in a relationship and doesn&#39;t learn 2) To show that she is damamaged goods as she jumped right to Riley and never &#39;healed&#39;. Also while I agree with you about the Spike line on the surface (they are trying to red herring us into thinking he is noble) once again it has an odd note to it. He didn&#39;t say I only want you when you can admit to being with me which is her problem but rather I want all of you which can be creepy in connotation but on the surface seems noble. Think about it for a while and what it COULD mean if the story goes awry. Once again Spike doesn&#39;t care if Buffy is good or bad or brought back &#39;wrong&#39; as long as he has ALL of her and the &#39;power&#39; or &#39;control&#39; which he DIDN&#39;T have in that scene where she was invisible and manipulated him (he was more pissed at her control and jovial attitude than that she hid it from Xander or was messing around in front of him) which he did have at the house. Or are you going to tell me his manhandling her was romantic and a sign of how strong she is too????

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 3:46 p.m. CST

    Setting the record straight

    by mflem920

    Buffy is not a god/godess. Apart from the fact that SMG has some serious godesslike attributes to her, Buffy herself is not a deity. First of all Giles said that it would take "God-Like" strength to wield Olaf&#39;s Hammer, not that one had to be a god in order to use it at all. Next, she was able to defeat Glory, not because she was a god herself, but because the special time where Glory and Ben were one was fast approaching and that was sapping Glory&#39;s strength even more than normal. Third, when Giles killed Ben saying, "She&#39;s different than us" he meant it in the sense that Buffy cannot rationalize killing innocent people no matter what the circumstances...both Giles and Ben were willing to whack an innocent (Ben/Dawn, Giles/Ben) when the situation suited them, Buffy couldn&#39;t bring herself to do it even with incredibly good reason. My guess for what Buffy is: she&#39;s not Buffy. She&#39;s a buffy clone, created by Willow that night using ex-Buffy parts. Willow never got the spell quite right and ended up leaving part of Buffy, the majority of her soul if you will, back in heaven while bringing a small portion of it back to earth, just enough so that whatever this thing is, it remembers Buffy and thinks it is she. The real Buffy is nice and happy and very much still dead in heaven. This Buffy on earth doesn&#39;t have a complete soul (hence her inability to appreciate some of the things a soul clues you in to), which is why Spike can hit her. I&#39;m not sure what that means for the earth-Buffy, probably that she doesn&#39;t get an afterlife for herself, she just gets rejoined to the other Buffy.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 4 p.m. CST

    Buffy/Spike Romance

    by mflem920

    Not to get into this whole debate on the healthiness of Buffy&#39;s relationships, because if any of us were authorities on the subject, would we really be posting on this obscure little board? But to put in bluntly, I don&#39;t think Spike/Buffy makes for the most functional couple. Most say that Spike is being cute and loyal through his exhibited actions, I say they are simply signs of a larger recurring problem with Spike. He tends to run a bit obsessive, expecially when it comes to being rejected by women. He was turned into a vampire because he was distraught over a woman he had feelings for who obviously didn&#39;t return those sentiments. He spent a lot of time pining over Drusilla after she dumped him, leading to possibly my favorite Buffy line of all time, "I may be love&#39;s bitch, but at least I&#39;m man enough to admit it." Buffy is just one more woman who rejects him that he has latched onto as part of his obsessive personality. He may be devoted to the death, but its still not coming from the right place. I&#39;m not advocating a double standard here either, I think Xander/Anya are making a huge mistake too. She&#39;s marrying the first guy...you never marry the first guy, or at least not until you&#39;ve dated around a bit. One day she&#39;s going to wake up and realize she missed a whole universe of alternate possibilities.

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 4:21 p.m. CST

    I GOT A MINDF&^*!! FOR YOU FLEM!!!

    by sundown

    What if this Buffy is like you said and goes bad and does become the BIG BAD! And the real Buffy has to come back to stop her! HA! I would laugh my ass off if we were watching the big bad all along and Willow was a red herring! If Joss did this and really made her get evil the ultimate redemption would be Faith coming back and dieing thus resurrecting the real Buffy. Now thats a crackpipe hypothesis!

  • what he said to Buffy and Angel when he was distraught over Dru leaving him for a demon. That they could never be JUST friends - it would never happen. That scene has pretty much stayed with me along with other Spike&#39;s comments. These comments, if gathered and processed together as a whole can really explain the makeup of Spike and his issues with relationships as a whole. He ain&#39;t a poster child of mental health. I think I&#39;m done with this topic, too. Not unless you find it safisfying to be with a person who only regards you, not as a person with seperate interests and activities (i.e. well-rounded human being), but as a possession that he/she is the sole possesor of. Y&#39;know, woo, I&#39;m done with this - thanks y&#39;all for the nice diversion from work....

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Lets post this again to see where it goes: Oh, lets just rememb

    by Smugbug

    what he said to Buffy and Angel when he was distraught over Dru leaving him for a demon. That they could never be JUST friends - it would never happen. That scene has pretty much stayed with me along with other Spike&#39;s comments. These comments, if gathered and processed together as a whole can really explain the makeup of Spike and his issues with relationships as a whole. He ain&#39;t a poster child of mental health. I think I&#39;m done with this topic, too. Not unless you find it safisfying to be with a person who only regards you, not as a person with seperate interests and activities (i.e. well-rounded human being), but as a possession that he/she is the sole possesor of. Y&#39;know, woo, I&#39;m done with this - thanks y&#39;all for the nice diversion from work....

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 4:55 p.m. CST

    Good luvin&#39; from evil boyz

    by Chocky

    I hate to say it but talent counts for something. And generally speaking I have found that nice, dependable, monogamous guys are not as talented as their sleazy counterparts (is that explained solely by the number of partners, or is there more involved?) Anyway, when you&#39;re young, it&#39;s hard not to fall into the perils of pleasure. I speak from experience. If Spike is the best lover she&#39;s had, you know it would be very hard for her to give up the sex. How can you expect her to do the right thing at 20? (It&#39;s somewhat analagous to expect a college kid to drink only milk if beer&#39;s available - what do they usually choose even to the detriment of their health and academic performance?) It takes a long time to figure out that an emotionally healthy relationship is preferable to one consisting solely of good sex. <><><><><> Spike wanting "all of her" I think refers to two things: having her love him back, and being able to date her openly so the other Scoobs know about it. A legitimate relationship, in other words. What&#39;s unhealthy about that?

  • I could not disagree more!! Spike went over and poured a drink, Buffy said "Color me confused - I thoght this was what you wanted?", and Spike said, "What I want..." He just let it trail off because he can&#39;t bring himself to say what he was actually feeling. Which is he wants Buffy to love him and to stop being ashamed to be seen with him. He also talked about the invisibilty enabling her to go anywhere she wanted, do anything... He was trying to talk to her about being responsible for her actions. "Free from life? Got another word for that: dead." I thought Spike was pretty damn wise and responsible in that scene. I was glad he made her leave because Buffy thinks that Spike is at her beck and call - it was great to hear her saying things like, "He threw ME out? Have I walked into a backward dimension here?" I think it was good for her to see that she can&#39;t just treat Spike anyway she wants and expect him to just be there. And as for what happened in her kitchen... You guys obviously don&#39;t know what it&#39;s like when you see the person you care about for the first time since you had sex for the first time. It&#39;s sexual tension galore, and all you want to do is have sex again! Besides, you&#39;re just assuming his hand was on her crotch when the camera did not show anything. She could have been just as aroused at his hand being on her thigh or stomach - I know I find those places highly erotic. I mean Spike put his hand in her pocket to grab his lighter and she moaned! He just turns her on - period. So, crackpipe&#39;s in your corner...

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 10:32 p.m. CST

    mflem920, something that&#39;s always bugged me since the end o

    by rubberjonny

    re: Giles&#39; " Buffy&#39;s different to us" - I know he IS obviously refering to Buffy&#39;s inability to kill a human (in this case Ben), but this has never squared up with Buffy&#39;s all out intent to kill Faith at the end of Season 3. I know Faith is kinda human/kinda not (being a slayer an&#39; all), but Ben was borderline human too. Why could Buffy kill Faith (or aim too) but not finish Ben, even when the world and her sister were at risk?

  • Jan. 11, 2002, 10:36 p.m. CST

    gosh darn it

    by rubberjonny

    inability is too strong a word, sorry I meant &#39;reluctance to kill a human.&#39;

  • Jan. 12, 2002, 10:49 p.m. CST

    spikes goodness or badness

    by stupidid

    i think spike is developing more of a conscience, or at least selfless and positive feelings for buffy, i mean, in the musical, she basically tells him to go to hell, and a purely evil and selfish vampire would vote to "be free if that bitch dies" to paraphrase, but not only goes to help her out, but saves her freaking life, which is more then her friends did. what more proof do you want?