Oct. 21, 2001, 9:26 p.m. CST
Since Saving Private Ryan is one of my all-time favorite films, it pains me that I can't watch this on a regular basis. I will have to wait until it is all released on DVD, then shell out tons of money for it. Oh, well...
Oct. 21, 2001, 9:28 p.m. CST
And it's not like I can just order HBO because I live in a college dorm. Ah, the joys of film school... at least I got to see Three Kings, another brilliant war film, on campus last night in digital sound. It almost makes up for this.
Oct. 21, 2001, 10:19 p.m. CST
First thing is first: I thought Lipton was going to get a battlefield commision, not a discharge. I guess I have to watch the thing again but I thought he was being discharged from being an Enlisted Man and then getting his commision. I heard someone say, "Welcome back" ,as though they were making a joke about him being discharged and then commisioned. They may have been talking to Welsh though, who I am glad to see back. The guy who plays Welsh is great, I loved it in ep 3 with Blithe in the foxhole right before Spiers showed up. Maybe someone versed by Ambrose can clear this Lipton discharge thing up. Furthermore, I really hope next ep brings Nixon to the fore finally. I think throughout the series he's been relegated to Winter's sidekick. I love the guy playing him (gone a long way from Office Space) and especially considering the magnitude of the next episode, it would be great to have Nixon fleshed out in greater detail. Spoiler WARNING: Which Concentration camp do they liberate next week? Please e-mail me if you know. Zubalove OUT.
Oct. 21, 2001, 10:22 p.m. CST
Brilliant. I can't wait to have them on DVD. Personally though I Can't wait to see next weeks episode when they encounter the concentration camp. From the trailer at the end of tonight's episode next weeks episode looks like it could be one of the best. I remember when I was in Munich and I went to see the concentration camp there. It's over half a century since it's been occupied and you could still feel this overwhelming sense of disgust that the whole place seemed to radiate. I'm curious as to how they are going to portray the soldiers going into the death camp and seeing the horrors that lie within.
Oct. 21, 2001, 10:26 p.m. CST
Lipton got an battlefield commission. So first he gets discharged as an enlisted man and then he gets a commission as a second luitenant. Of all the episodes I felt this one was the weakest. Unlike the previous episode the voiceovers were too distracting this time.
Oct. 21, 2001, 10:46 p.m. CST
I read the book. First off the episode called 'The Last Patrol' was indeed called in the book, 'The Patrol'. I agree with Moriarty that the later is more appropriate. *SPOILER* Now mind you this is the book. I dont have any clue on how they are approaching this in the mini-series.They are supposed to enter a German town and realize the Germans are the ones that need saving. Some are relieved to see the Americans, though some are not, and Easy and the rest of the battalion are going to look for important people (ie spies soldiers, officers etc)most of whom want to surrender anyway,knowing full well the game is afoot. The work camp is part of the Dachau complex, before the real concentration camp is seen. *END SPOILER* Than the last episode should be the defining triumph of Easy. I started reading the book at episode 6 and now at episode 8 have finished it. The series is a fine companion to the book. Very closely followed and a beatiful tribute to Easy Company. READ THE BOOK. PLEASE. It is a more in depth view of this wonderful and inspiring company. Not a dull, too detailed moment in the book. A fine read. Bravo Tom Hanks, Stephen Spielberg and Stephen E. Ambrose and all the cast and crew involved.
Oct. 22, 2001, 1:03 a.m. CST
I thought they saw Aushweitz(spelling?) and not Dachau. The place I visited was Dachau and it was heartbreaking. I can only imagine what it was like to stumble on to a place like that. They have handled all the other material well so far so I can't imagine them dropping the ball on an episode as important as this. Here's hoping they do it justice.
Oct. 22, 2001, 1:43 a.m. CST
Ok, just saw The Last Patrol on HBO, they did retain the title. Well two things, Lipton was indeed given a promotion, he was discharged as an enlisted man and given a commission. The second thing the Sergeant's Name is Martin not Miller, he is Sgt. Johnny Martin. Trivia question there are two second generation actors in this episode one is the aforementioned Colin Hanks(Lt. Jones). Who is the other one?
Oct. 22, 2001, 1:51 a.m. CST
You got plot right, but were inaccurate on a couple of the details. Firstly, Easy Company is part of the 2nd Battalion of the 506th Airborne Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. Secondly, Lipton was discharged as an enlisted man and then immediately given a commission as a second lieutenant.
Oct. 22, 2001, 8:58 a.m. CST
All names are real including Dyke and Sobel. BTW, David Schwimmer even looks like Sobel. Lipton was discharged from his enlistment then commissioned as an officer. That is normal procedure.
Oct. 22, 2001, 9:18 a.m. CST
After THE LAST PATROL, I saw an ad for what I've been hoping for! On November 11th, HBO will air a documentary on they REAL Easy Company guys. It's like Episode 11! It showed bits of the survivors and the actors playing them side by side. The two Guarnere's look almost exactly alike! Good Casting! I got really choked up just watching this promo, so I know I'll be a sorry sack when I watch the whole thing. I read the book and it's been sad this whole time, especially knowing who makes it though the war, who doesn't, and certain guys who have very sad stories after the war.
Oct. 22, 2001, 1:25 p.m. CST
and turned in a false report that said the second patrol was a success and that's OK. They are not caught or punished. I get warm fuzzies. They even get promoted in the end. And the lesson for all of us is? Individual soldiers can decide which orders are important enough to follow and which ones aren't? That so long as the soldiers at the lower level can determine that the leadership has a less than honorable motive for ordering a patrol, they are free to ignore those orders?
Oct. 22, 2001, 2:33 p.m. CST
I'm glad that someone else pointed it out, but I just wanted to float an opinion. I would normally not dare to question the actions of those whose bravery far exceeds anything I ever have or ever will do. But to blatantly disregard orders is (I believe) an act of treason. Whether or not the second mission was pointless is not the decision of those who ended up making it. The military is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship, and rightfully so. You get your orders, and you do them. End of story. I understand the rationale behind what was done, but that doesn't make it right. If you can't follow orders, you shouldn't be in that position. There is a certain amount of discretion given to different officers about what to do, but this was not one of those cases. What they did was wrong, even if they did it for the right reasons.
Oct. 22, 2001, 4:59 p.m. CST
In the book its Dachau, in the mini-series for Spielberg's sake its probably Auchwitz (butchered the spelling, sorry about that).
Oct. 22, 2001, 5:44 p.m. CST
The ep. was showing how demoralized the unit was. It also showed the Col., a man they literally jumped out of perfectly good airplanes for (my dad is retired USAF-sue me), had by 1945 become more concerned about securing his star and getting a prestigious command after the war was over. That was why he ordered the second patrol. It also showed, IMHO, the seeds that led to the mistakes in Vietnam. Next weeks ep. is titled "Why We Fight" and going to the camp snaps the unit out of it's selfish mentality. And once again, Auch. is in Poland so that won't be the camp. Sometimes my fellow fanboys I wonder what you were doing in history and geography classes. But hey, I can't recite every line from the graphic novel "from hell".-----later-----m
Oct. 23, 2001, 2:19 p.m. CST
Are there actually some people out there judging these guys for refusing orders? "What they did was wrong". Put yourself in their position, being at the tip of the spear of the allied campaign in Europe since D-day, you're given the chance for a brief reprieve from hell, and you're saying you would have turned in Capt. Winters to the Colonel? You're some pretty self-righteous, eagerly brainwashed, ignorant fucks. Remember, Capt. Winters executed the de-armament manuever of those heavy guns after D-day which is still being taught at West Point today. You probably are in no position to judge.
Oct. 23, 2001, 4:16 p.m. CST
The point that you seem to be missing Twan-Deeth-Ree is that these guys were SOLDIERS. That means that they follow orders from the person above them in the chain of command. Until you understand that distinction, we will always seem like ignoratn, self-righteous fucks to you when, in reality, you are the clueless one. The entire military works on this principle, and there is no way that WWII or any other war would ever be won if the soldiers did not follow their orders. What I would have preferred to do in their position is beside the point. I suspect that soldiers often are not given all the facts by their higher ups about why they have to do the missions they are given, and so they just have no right to decide on their own wehat orders to follow and what not to follow. Those soldiers simply put their own personal welfare above their duty, and that is indefensible.
Oct. 23, 2001, 4:40 p.m. CST
You're right. These guys were slack lazy grunts and Winters deserved to get court-martialed. Forget that this was one of the most decorated Companies in US military history. What a pretentious asshole you are. Smug, so safe and secure from behind your keyboard. Was it a questionable call on WInter's part? Sure. Do I think less of him as a soldier, or a leader. No. And I doubt many other people do as well.
Oct. 23, 2001, 4:44 p.m. CST
by Bad Man
Just my two cents worth here. First off, I read the book a few years ago and fell in love with it, so I had very high expectations for the series. These were increased tenfold when I heard that Ambrose and the E company survivors were all going to be involved with the production of the series in one capacity or another. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the series was a.) reasonably accurate and b.) just plain old fashioned good TV. Has anyone noticed that large chunks of the series seems to take place in the spaces during the book that Ambrose doesn't cover every little detail? This gives the writers an opportunity to stretch their wings a little without directly contradicting anything that's been historically recorded. Smart, but I was hoping that this would be the series that would find a way to recreate history and keep it dramatically interesting and entertaining without significantly deviating from what actually happened. This only bothers me when they begin to place people in places and at times that they actually were not present. F'r example: Webster did not participate in the raid across the river in Hagenau. This bugs the shit out of me, although only because what he was actually doing during the raid was just as hardcore and heroic as what the patrol guys did. Let me know if you're curious as to what actually happened...
Oct. 23, 2001, 5:01 p.m. CST
You think you speak with some knowledge, but it's clear you never served since you believe subordinates are not able to modify or disregard what they believe is an illegal or ill informed order. In fact, it is in the Code of Conduct that enlisted men and officers are obligated to do so and can be held responsible for their actions in following orders that contradict common sense and rules of war. Please don't comment on how soldiers should behave if you have never been one yourself. Oh, and yes, I am a veteran.
Oct. 23, 2001, 5:34 p.m. CST
In fact, I'm a West Point grad, class of '83. I have served and so I know something of what I speak about. Your point is well taken, but slightly wrong. Subordinates can refuse an illegal or immoral order (i.e., shooting civilians), but not just any order that they think is, as you put it "ill-informed." If that were the case, then every private would think that the order he got was just ill-informed and ignore it. If you really are a veteran, you must know that. SBD
Oct. 23, 2001, 5:36 p.m. CST
1) The decision not to follow orders in 'The Last Patrol' is a nice juxtaposition to what happens in ep. 7 (Breaking Point)when they do follow the orders of an incompetent commander (Dike) and about 4-6 get killed needlessly by trying to flank the town of Foy. 2) Haven't I heard this 'Must follow orders at any cost' argument in a little WWII event called The Nuremberg Trials?? I didn't think it held water there either (for the reasons cited above)
Oct. 23, 2001, 11:57 p.m. CST
You're not in the service. You are just some fuck-up. No one in their right mind would be stupid enough to give you a uniform, much less one in the military. If you really did graduate from West Point, you would know that to send them back in would have gotten all of them killed for sure. No one could believe that they could pull that off again. The officers just though that "Hell, if this one worked, and we got praised by our commanders, MAKE 'EM GO BACK AGAIN! IT'LL BE TWICE AS GOOD" That whole "Follow orders no matter WHAT" theory is bullshit. If a commanding officer gives you an order you truly believe will harm civilians or the lives of the men needlessly, you are not obligated to follow them. You must make an official protest, and move from there. But had Winters done that, it would have been devastating to the morale of the men, and would have crippled the momentum of the fight. You are such a fuck-up, I hope that in the memory of all those REAL men who gave their lives over there, that you get put in a situation where your fuck-up theory is put to the test, and you lose someone close to you. If you were really in the military, you would not be so god-damned disrespectful...