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ANOTHER DAY IN SEPTEMBER: A Discussion With Hollywood About Life In The Shadow Of 9-11, Part One
Three weeks.
Has it already been three weeks?
In some ways, it’s felt like the whole world has been holding its breath in the 20 days since the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Much has been written about September 11th and the aftermath of it by every major and minor outlet in the past few weeks. Part of that is an attempt by the writers to sort out feelings about these events on a personal level. Another part of it is figuring out the role of the media at a time like this. Are we here just to entertain? Are we also allowed to vent our feelings? As difficult as it is for us to sort out our own role, that’s nothing compared to the dilemma Hollywood faces in the days, weeks, and even months ahead.
As ol’ Charles Halloway said, and as some guy named Shakespeare said before him, "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes."
Everyone felt a bit like that at first, as folks rushed out to consult Nostradamus via fake quatrains and the Book of Revelations, looking for proof that this was the beginning of the end. Numerologists had a field day, and people sent out all sorts of mass e-mails, like we were all looking to somehow justify the hysteria we felt on the verge of giving into. People went back to church in droves. Others sought out the wisdom of CNN, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, or the Fox News Channel.
Over and over, we saw two amazing accomplishments of human engineering topple, cascading ripples of smoke blanketing the great man-made canyons of New York City. As the Pentagon burned and a conspiracy was laid out for us, we all felt a range of emotions.
Here at AICN, we (Moriarty and Harry) have watched as the tragedy has begun to affect our cultural landscape. We started to talk about what we were reading in our e-mail, about what we were hearing on the phone as we spoke with our friends, and about what was starting to happen in town. And we started talking about art and imagery and responsibility. We’ve seen trailers pulled, movies pulled, films desperately scheduling reshooting ($22 million worth for SPIDER-MAN alone), and digital cleanup crews have been hired to erase our collective scar. It’s been a profound example of plastic surgery of the mind, something Hollywood seems proficient at.
At first, this annoyed us.
Why would the industry change by covering its eyes and pretending that the WTC had never existed? Why would the industry just bury its head in the sand? Art and entertainment are our mirrors. People use art for any of a thousand reasons, to elicit every possible reaction there is. People watch movies because they’re happy or because they’re sad or because they’re in love or because they’re pissed off, and they look for different emotional release each time. That’s why so many genres exist, and why it’s impossible to predict hits. People see a film, and they react, and that interaction is what makes this medium so special, so worthwhile.
Films Being Pulled: Shows being pulled or delayed is one thing, but now certain pro-censorship advocate groups are sensing the frenzy and pushing their own agendas past the point of good reason. Requests are apparently being sent in to video stores to pull films like "Die Hard", "Deep Impact", "Independence Day", "Armageddon" and the "Earthquake in New York" mini-series from their shelves and getting cable/regular TV networks to never show them again. There's also two films still out in theatres with a continuity flaw - both "Final Fantasy" and "AI" features scenes and shots with the towers in them - as both films are set in the future this seems out of context. Thanks to 'SWERJ'
That item appeared on Garth Franklin’s exemplary site Dark Horizons On Monday, Sept. 17. Almost immediately, we began to get a barrage of letters asking if it was true, asking how to stop it, asking who was behind it. Whoever scooped Garth sent him the fuel to start a fire but no focus for the flames. None of these alleged “certain pro-censorship groups” are identified, and the fact that they’re supposedly sending requests to video stores hardly equals the same thing as stores responding to those requests.
Besides, the idea that DIE HARD or ARMAGEDDON or any of a hundred other titles that suddenly became “sensitive” will vanish from shelves and never appear on TV again is, to put it bluntly, stupid. Not showing them at the moment or in the immediate future might be considered sensitive to the feelings of a bruised and healing citizenship, but not showing them ever again would be unthinkable. Or at least, it would be unthinkable to anyone who believes in the curative powers of art.
We tried to wait, tried to be patient, and we have done our best to sit this one out. We waited to hear from the mainstream, the “professionals.” First,Elvis Mitchell weighed in with an editorial in THE NEW YORK TIMES, while Patrick Goldstein did the same for THE LOS ANGELES TIMES. They both discussed the idea of the end of the action movie, of a shift away from anything violent, of an industrywide change that had to be coming, a shift to the innocent, a hope for the musical and light adventure. The editor of VANITY FAIR declared “the death of Irony.”
And this just plain left us confused.
We watched and waited for an editorial that would ring the bell of reason, but none came. Our first impulse? We decided to write our own. Moriarty at his Labs, Harry at Geek Headquarters. We were going to scream at it all. We had seen so many lives lost pointlessly, and we couldn’t stand to see our arts compromised by the same horrific action. Our paranoid minds started playing with the horror of filling out paperwork to rent “high risk films.”
TUTTLE
The paperwork... couldn't stand the
paperwork. Listen, this old
system
of yours could be on fire and I
couldn't even turn on the
kitchen
tap without filling out a 27B/6...
bloody paperwork.
SAM
(mildly)
Well, I suppose one has to expect a
certain amount...
TUTTLE
Why? I came into this game for the
action, the excitement. Go
anywhere, travel light, get in, get
out, wherever there¹s trouble, a
man alone. Now they've got the
whole country sectioned off and you
can't make a move without a form.
-- BRAZIL, Terry Gilliam, Charles McKeowan, and Tom Stoppard
(1985)
As we imagined a world like Terry Gilliam’s bureaucratic nightmare come to life, we remembered that the film deals with invisible terrorists, and we asked each other, “Would BRAZIL be appropriate today?”
And as our heads swam, we set aside our keyboards, realizing that we had to write a special piece, something unlike what we had done before. We decided to get serious and contact everyone on the trusty e-mail Rolodex.
We wanted to see what Hollywood thought of all this. Instead of us spouting off about what should or shouldn’t be, we wanted to open up the conversation to the creative community at large. What motivated you to change your poster art, Mr. Lurie? How does it feel to have ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK pulled from video stores, Mr. Carpenter? We envisioned a decent top story for a Monday morning.
But... it grew.
From an initial selection of 10 to 15 professionals, it has swelled now to over a hundred. We didn’t know what to expect in terms of feedback, but for many it has turned into a cathartic experience. An unobtrusive e-mail staring at them, asking them the same questions they were asking themselves. No cameras, no eyes to stare as they wrote. They sat alone in a room with a keyboard with no publicists or handlers around them.
And they answered.
We sent each person roughly the same letter, with personal questions included for each artist. Some of the people took the time to answer each question. Others answered in one long discourse. Today, we’ve got a sampling of answers to give you an idea what to expect as the series progresses.
What you’ll read in this series of articles is a direct dialogue between the people who work in this business and you, the people who watch their films and read their books and tune in for their TV shows. This is a way for us to facilitate a discussion instead of pretending we have all the answers.
The thing that has impressed us the most when reading these responses is the way people set aside that polished Hollywood exterior and simply reacted as people. There is anger in these responses and there is eloquence. There is pain and hurt and also signs of light and healing. Reading and editing these responses has helped us with our own grief and confusion.
We hope it helps you as well.
First off, in light of the events that took place in New York, what do you feel your primary duty is as a writer serving an audience in a Post-WTC America?
Primary duty = Not to write in fear. Not to coddle or massage the hypocritical concept of a bogus "sensitivity" in media that time-out from the horrific WTC news images to sell easy armchair patriotism and SUVs called the "Liberty." Less than a week after the terrorist attack, news coverage focused primarily on how brave TV anchorpeople were "suffering;" these glory hogs being spelled only by an endless parade of religious nitwits braying on about their god’s plan. From my non-partisan religious viewpoint, it looks to me like Allah kicked "God"s ass, this time out. Gun-shy sheep are always quick to make the entertainment industry take it on the chin any time extremists do public damage. Americans have for decades denied the reality of terrorist acts on US soil, always qualifying each new outrage with a convenient disclaimer: "It was a lone nut." "It wasn’t really terrorism." But Hollywood has been warning audiences about
terrorism in our own backyard for just as many decades. It’s time people stopped averting their eyes; maybe they¹ll learn something, or at least put their anger and fear in a more deserving receptacle than movies or books or TV like, for instance, culling all their do-nothing politicians. (DJS/David J. Schow, screenwriter of THE CROW and TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE 3)
The exact same duty I had in pre-WTC America. Examine my body of work, and you'll see a keen desire to uplift an audience with a positive message rather than bludgeon them with ugliness and nihilism. If there's a theme running through my films, it's that we as individuals can rise above our baser selves and be better than we are. I've always felt, even pre-WTC, that too many films dwell on how horrible we can be to one another instead of how good. Does that mean films shouldn't touch upon tough subjects and the dark side of human nature? Not at all. You can't seek the light unless you contrast it with the dark. "Schindler's List" is a shining example, showing human decency flowering even in the midst of the ugliest possible human behavior. So, for that matter, since you asked about it, is "Saving Private Ryan." (FD/Frank Darabont, screenwriter/director of SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION, THE GREEN MILE, THE MAJESTIC)
First, I feel my duty is to keep on doing what I'm doing. I feel my films have dealt in an entertaining way on how ordinary people can deal with evil people if they have no choice but to deal with them. That seems to be a very relevant issue and theme. (WC/Wes Craven, screenwriter/director of A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET, SCREAM, LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT)
A personal opinion -- I believe that when there has been a great national tragedy such as last week, which has forever changed or ripped apart thousands of lives, artists should take it upon themselves to gauge the appropriateness of their works. Yes it's easy for a writer or artist (or comedian, for that matter) to use current tragic events as source material, but other than initial shock value, is the artist saying anything worth reading or watching? If he's doing it for sensation's sake, he may make a couple of quick bucks, but he's ultimately going to alienate more customers than he attracts. The artist should listen to his or her own conscience first before making a callous statement about someone else's pain. They need to try and remember a time when they felt helpless and scared, and judge how they would have felt if someone was commenting without sensitivity on that. If it doesn't matter to them, then they are more than free to proceed and take whatever consequences come their way. (PD/Paul Dini, screenwriter, co-creator of BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES)If you were asked to alter past material to somehow reflect the current tragedy, would you feel that was appropriate?
In a film like ours, I would say that it would be appropriate to make changes that were upsetting to the audience. The jokes in question were not meant as social commentary. They were sideward glancing jokes, trying to make fun of the Taliban when they weren't seen as quite so evil. (JCh/Jay Chadrasekhar, actor/writer/director of SUPER TROOPERS, PUDDLE CRUISER)
A: Absolutely not, interim or otherwise. It is a horrifying and dangerous notion. If we start censoring things, the people who have attacked us will have won a great victory. They will have succeeded in tearing down not only our buildings, but the very concepts of freedom that make us Americans. I repeat: if we do this, the bad guys have won. This we cannot allow.
Movies, books, music, or TV are not the enemy. The enemy are extremists who feel empowered by God to fly hijacked airliners into buildings and thereby slaughter thousands of innocent people. Let's not confuse the two.
Do we want to continue to be Americans, to live and let live, or become like the Taliban itself? You will find no greater example of close-minded, dogmatic thought than in that particular group. These are the very people who, in the rush to censor any thought or philosophy that conflicts with their own, recently dynamited to rubble ancient statues of Buddha, the largest such statues in the world. They destroyed these priceless and irreplaceable antiquities out of sheer, dumb arrogance. My stomach churns
in anguish at the thought.
Me, I figure whatever my neighbor wants to do is fine by me, just so long as nobody's censoring anything or flying planes into buildings. "Live and let live" is what makes us American.
Aside from that, the question posed seems to beg another unspoken question, which is whether we should have horror in art at all. Of course we should. The world is not Disneyland, as much as censorious souls like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Donald Wildmon would like to make it so, which means art should and must be allowed the latitude to evoke all aspects of our human dreams and experiences. There is as much need for the image of Linda Blair's head spinning around on her shoulders as there is for Julie Andrews spinning around on the mountaintop singing "The Sound of Music." Horror films and literature can be extremely cathartic for people (not to mention profoundly insightful into the human mind and heart), which is why we love them. Yes, a lot of really crappy, artless horror films have been made (the entire "Friday the 13th" series springs to mind, but, thankfully, I have the right as an American not to watch the damn things if I find them brainless and offensive), but many of our most brilliant works of art and literature reside in the genre. Simply put, the first idiot that tries to banish Mr. Poe, Ms. Shelley, Mr. King, or Mr. Shakespeare will have to do so over my dead red-white-and-blue body. (The revered American fantasist Ray Bradbury, a deeply humanitarian man and no stranger to horror himself, has written many brilliant works addressing society's sick desire for censorship, including "Fahrenheit 451," "Pillar of Fire," and "Usher II"...all highly recommended reading for those in doubt.)
And, oh, by the way, we've had plenty of crappy, artless films rendered in ALL genres -- so once we start, where do we stop? Do we start doing away with westerns, or romantic comedies, or musicals, or religious epics? And by whose standards do we judge? For every book or movie I love that Donald Wildmon finds offensive, I assure you I can do away with one of his for the same reason. It would be an exceptionally pointless exercise. (FD)Or do you stand behind the work you've created, even if someone finds unfortunate echoes in it?
NBK was a film that mocked how the media fed us certain images. The criticism still applies. My little sister is an NYPD cop – she has been working twenty hour days at Ground Zero. The media continues to feed us this INDEPENDENCE DAY imagery which is clean and spectacular. NBK sought to question. Questioning is always good. (DM/Don Murphy, producer of FROM HELL, NATURAL BORN KILLERS)
That will, and should, be up to the artist. I do hope, however, that film and television-show makers will be sensitive to the victims and their families, and aware that they might be watching. That is my personal view. (BS/Bryan Singer, director of X-MEN, THE USUAL SUSPECTS)
[A]ny picture that helps an audience deal emotionally with violence of this sort is incredibly valuable. This is, ultimately, how we as civilians deal with horrible realities. What will have to change, perhaps, is the idea of simple solutions by single heroes. We'll have to show more of the complexity of issues. We need to know more about both our friends and our enemies that live elsewhere and think and believe very differently from us. Cartoon images just won't cut it anymore. Perhaps for the near future anything that's at all upsetting will have to be, simply for commercial reasons if for no other, avoided. But there will be a need, eventually, to confront everything we've experienced in some sort of cinematic rumination. Censorship right now is not being spoken of. The reality has, ironically, so far outstripped anything a movie might have suggested that for the time being, it seems, those who were trying to pin everything on the film business seem occupied elsewhere. (WC)There are currently censorship groups forming around the country to try and get rid of 'inappropriate films' with 'insensitive content' from not only video stores, but cable and network outlets as well. As a writer, how do you feel films with similar content to tragic circumstances should be viewed... and how do you think they benefit or harm society?
I’d like to maintain the gentle fantasy that most people are not sponges passive absorbers of whatever is broadcast or published. I’d like to believe that people can exercise choice according to their own tastes, and have the common respect not to foist their choices on others, particularly in a militant way. Zealots are fanatics, whether they¹re crazed enough to destroy buildings or crazed enough to mandate what everyone else should be looking at or reading. Thomas Jefferson was outraged by this very idea. He said, "Are we to have a censor whose imprimatur shall say what books shall be sold and what we may buy?" If we do, this isn’t America anymore. The censorship groups you cite have always been lying in wait, and should be ashamed of using the WTC tragedy to grandstand their narrow and picayune agendas.
What’s even more ominous is that CNN is currently running a poll on their website, which asks, "Would you accept more government involvement in your life if it meant more security against terrorism?" That’s really an are-you-still-beating-your-wife kind of pseudo-question, since whether you answer YES or NO doesn¹t matter it stinks either way. It is, in its own way, a kind of terrorist question. (Everybody stop now and go look up "terrorism" in the dictionary. Don’t accept what media tools say; just go look it up for yourself. We’ll wait.) What it doesn’t address is the bald reality that "security from terrorism" is impossible, due to the nature of terrorist acts. "Security from terrorism" is practically an oxymoron. Security is a comforting illusion, not an absolute. But if you answer NO to the CNN question, the perception is that one "supports terrorism." The Spanish Inquisition couldn’t have twisted language any better. (DJS)
Censorship and (even worse, I think) self-censorship is the enemy of all creative thought. Right now video stores are pulling movies off of shelves that contain themes of terrorism. Radio stations are being asked to take certain songs off of their playlists (including "Leaving on a Jet Plane" by Peter, Paul, and Mary). Will "Catcher in the Rye" be taken out of your public library the next time there is a school shooting? This is not to say that there isn't an abuse of our Freedom of Speech. Quite the contrary. But it's more likely to be happening on your PC, not your local multiplex. It's insane that anyone can learn how to make a pipe bomb by pulling it up off the internet. My neighbor, a 15 year-old boy, was recently carded and refused entrance into "American Pie 2" but he can go home and download hard-core pornography for free. People need to know what's going on in their own home, first and foremost. (MSJ/Mark Steven Johnson, screenwriter/director of GRUMPY OLD MEN, SIMON BIRCH, DAREDEVIL)
Look, there are people in the USA today in 2001 who still want HUCKLEBERRY FINN out of libraries. Addressing the lunatic, repressive fringe only gives them legitimacy. If you don’t like a film, don’t give it two hours of your life. Period. Then shut up. (DM)Hollywood has been reacting to this event in a number of ways. First they began digitally removing the World Trade Center from films, how do you feel about that? Second, they began pulling films with 'relevant' content from release, your reaction? Third, they have canceled and begun reshooting films as a result... again, what do you think?
It breaks my heart to see them removing these shots. I suppose, in time, I will understand the logic. I guess, as a New Yorker, I am still in denial on some level. I can see the logic in eliminating the WTC from films in production, like MIB2 or Spider Man, but why in films that have already been released and are being transferred to DVD? I read on your site this is happening to AI. Is it true? (JF/Jon Favreau, actor/writer/director of SWINGERS, MADE, VERY BAD THINGS)EDITOR’S NOTE: No, Jon, that was just a suggestion by a reader, although given Spielberg's emminent digital removal of all guns from E.T., it wouldn't be surprising. But as of yet, there are no known changes commencing.
Over-reaction. I could care less. Most movies that deal with terrorism pretty much stink. They are easy villains for jaded studio execs to dust off and trot out every few years. God forbid the suits try and think up anything new. Now they're too scared to even use terrorists. Could piss off the kids and hurt the opening weekend gross. Soon there will be only one bad guy "acceptable" for use in any movie -- Elmer Fudd. He's white, he's stupid, he's non-threatening, he's perfect. 20,000,000.00 a picture for Elmer, soon to be the workin'est man in show-biz. Let's get the ball rolling now. (PD)
It is nothing new. Current events have always affected people's personal and financial decisions regarding the materials they produce and release. (BS)
I think COLLATERAL DAMAGE is just that. I don't need to see that film. I think they should edit out the WT Center in those films. These are escapist films and the audience does not need to be reminded of our loss for those two hours at least. I do think there might be some pleasure in seeing Schwarzenegger kill terrorists. But this current situation is so politically complicated, I'm not sure the movie version is going to do us much good. (JCh)
No opinion – if that is what will affect the film, it must not be a strong film. (DM)Is there catharsis in images of Americans triumphing over crisis right now, or in horror films where good wins over evil, or are these images too much in light of recent reality?
I think it's wise to juggle the release schedules and the upcoming slate of films to be shot. There is a time and a place for everything. I don't think now is the time or the place for related subject matter. I can guarantee, however, that we will see a hell of an epic about these current events in our lifetime. It has terror and courage and the triumph of the human spirit and, I pray to God, a happy ending. My son will no doubt munch popcorn and cheer at the screen. I'll see you all in the lobby with all the other parents who don't want to fall apart in front of the little ones.
As for now, I couldn't be happier that LOTR is on its way. It is as timely now as when it was written. America today is not unlike war-torn England in Tolkien's time and the cultural context of the myth should ring just as true. This is the entertainment I desire. I want to see Hobbits and Orcs not spies and terrorists. Show me Good and Evil in a way I can stomach. My subconscious will sort out the rest. I'll figure out what the ring represents, and who Sauron is. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that, right now, I feel like a confused Hobbit about to enter Mordor. (JF)Where do you draw the line with this sort of thing? Should absolute freedom be protected? Should there be times of temporary censorship, or do people need access to all types of art at all times?
Film should be whatever it should be. There are no rules - except one. A film must make a profit. That's the only objective rule behind the making of films. Very few films have ever been made with express intention of losing money. The need for profit is what will decide the content of films in the coming years. Now, profit can be sourced from many audiences - intellectuals, punks, farmers, gays, Christians, kids, skateboarders, zealots, geeks, families etc. etc. - and every audience constitutes "the people". So films can serve the people, the nation, and the world, by doing just what they are already doing - telling all manner of stories, at all budget levels, just so long as they do not sink into overt, cynical exploitation. To limit the content of films in an effort to "motivate" the nation is to indulge in ideological duplicity, to benefit one's belief system at the expense of others. (SN/Stephen Norrington, director (BLADE)
I probably will not be writing anything about Ra's Al Ghul anytime soon, if that's what you mean. He's too close to the mark at the moment. Besides, I doubt DC would let me kill him off, which is what a nasty part of me sort of feels like doing this week. Oh wait, I killed him off in the cartoon. Never mind. The main problem is that superheroes can't save the day in the real world. I don't think there's a person in America who wouldn't have given their eye-teeth to see Superman rescuing people and kicking ass in the middle east last week. But it didn't happen, kids. The superhero can still inspire by example or offer escapism from an all too grim world, and maybe in the long run, that's where they're most effective. (PD)
There is no such thing as ABSOLUTE FREEDOM - You are always limited by Artistic Ability of Finances. I could never direct as well as Roman Polanski, so I am not free to do so. Polanski doesn't have the ability to get financing for Chinatown type films anymore in France, so he is not free to make them. There also is no such thing as temporary censorship. Censors are like Nazis - First they come for the pornographers, then they come for Oliver Stone and Quentin Tarantino, then they come for Disney. They Cannot Be Tolerated At All! (DM)
Censorship should not be allowed, but showing a little sensitivity couldn't hurt. The other day I came across a car ad in a magazine that showed the World Trade Center in the background. I was surprised by the pain I felt upon seeing this innocuous image, knowing those beautiful buildings were no longer there, and being reminded all over again of how many people died. Maybe I'm a sap, but I think taking the World Trade Center out of the "Spider Man" poster is a gracious thing to do. As for rescheduling certain films, fine. I'm guessing the public wants to see things that'll cheer them up right about now rather than remind them, don't you? Reality has dealt us a crushing blow, and I doubt many people want to run out and see a movie about cartoon terrorists blowing things up. Besides, I think our country needs to proceed advisedly and cautiously from here (pray God that we do), and not get caught up in reactionary Rambo-type jingoism. (FD)No one seems ready to stand up as a media voice to advocate for the curative powers of art.
I don¹t know about "curative;" I don¹t feel the need for a cure; perhaps I¹m not infected with anything. What I do need is creative freedom and access to all varieties of art, unencumbered by the self-serving agendas of politicians or the stormtrooper tactics of those who would police morals. Movies and books are MY religion, and we all know what happens when you mess with people¹s religion... (DJS)
Look, these is an extraordinary moment in American and even world history. The last membrane between the two worlds that have predominated for centuries - have and have not, democratic or autocratic, peaceful or warlike - that membrane has been penetrated and shattered forever. We have, in fact, been thoroughly infiltrated by a ruthless, highly trained and lethal enemy bent on our destruction. We're either going to figure out a way to root them out and/or stop them from what we're doing, or the whole idea of movies, entertainment or even existence will be history.
So let's not sweat the small stuff. Art will prevail as the voice of the people. But before we can enjoy our movies again, we have to deal with the fact that the theater's on fire. (WC)Before we close for today, there are some letters we got that were hard to break down into individual responses. Peter Hyams wrote us a response that we found moving, that humanized him in a way that 20 years worth of junket events never has. We’re going to close with his thoughts, and with the promise of more of this to come. AICN is dedicated to being a place where discussion occurs, where people can debate these things in an effort to gain some sense of perspective. We’ll be back with our next article on Wednesday morning.
Until then, here’s Peter.
Harry:
I was a ten-year-old child when my stepfather was arrested. He was hauled in front of the House Un-American Activities Committee. He was a symphonic conductor of no renown and even less financial success. He was, at that time, conducting a Russian ballet company...so it made good press. I come from a theatrical family. I am third generation. I grew up in a rent-controlled apartment on the west side of Manhattan. My parents were Socialists...like most artists and intellectuals of their generation. I went to art schools from the time I could spit. All of my friends were the children of the blacklist. This was the 1950's...during A-bomb drills in
Junior High School... fallout shelters...John Foster Dulles...and the aforementioned Black List. I saw far too many lives destroyed, including my stepfather's...by the hysteria and ugliness of that time. It was a nightmare.
This is a long-winded preamble. However...it lets you know who I am...and what forged my beliefs. There are two overriding emotions that I feel more passionately than any others:
One, is anger. I want revenge. I want us to do something about these people. I know that things are going to get worse. I also know that things will never get better until and unless we address the problem of terrorism and the truly evil people who are behind it. I want us to kick some ass.
Two, is fear. Besides the obvious fear of other catastrophes. It is the fear of losing the Bill Of Rights, because it is such an inconvenient document. What separates us from the Ben Ladens, the Talibans, and all the other psychopaths, is the Bill Of Rights. You have to read about the time of the Black List to understand how pervasive and how wrong it was...and what a profound effect it had on American culture. When I read your questions about people swooping down video store aisles and confiscating "inappropriate" films...I get the chills. I don't see the difference between these people and the Arab Fundamentalist book burners.
The proper reactions to what occurred are horror, sorrow, anger, and resolve...not hysteria. If you are serious when you say that "Capricorn One", or any film that suggested government conspiracy, is in danger of being removed from shelves, then we are in more danger from within our society
than from outside it. Films are reflections of their time. Live everything else...film evidences good taste, bad taste, great talent, and a profound lack of it. It simply depends on the film.
If people's sensibilities are altered by the wrenching events of last week, then films will probably evidence that. My guess is that audience tastes will somewhat mirror audiences during World War II. I would bet that you
will see a lot of films where the bad guys are Arabs. I think there will be a bunch of patriotic movies. And...as always ...escapist movies will be what people want. We should not forget that before last week...the economy was spiraling downwards....less than half of the population felt that the President was presidential. The environment was in decline. Most, if not all newspaper reports described a general pessimism.
Obviously, when you have Spiderman cavorting around the World Trade Center towers, it is like salt on a wound. Everyone is now, and shall remain very sore and tender for a long while. If events worsen...then our sensibilities will reflect that. However... just like during the early 1940's...audiences wanted to see bad guys get their asses kicked...beautiful girls get kissed...and jokes told.
If I have made a film that is guilty of being tasteless...racist...vulgar...or anything else that is horrible...then I should be ashamed of myself. It does not matter if it was made during the 1980's or the 1990's... there is no excuse for horrible work. However ...if anyone thinks that the antidote for that is a group of people that will decide for the rest of us, what is allowable, then they should drop what they are doing, and read their high school history books.
I hope this answers your questions for you. If not... please tell me... and I will try to further clarify for you. I also hope that you are feeling better.
Peter Hyams.Contact Harry or Moriarty if you have any questions or comments about this piece.
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Well, that's just the thing needed right now: reflection. Congratulations, great piece of work, Harry and Moriarty.
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Oct 01, 2001 5:27:15 AM CDT
Not American. It's Humanity that will get us through this
by fat lot of good
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Primal Scream used to play a song from their last album - called Bomb The Pentagon. I can't see them ever playing it again, not after the events of Sept 11th. Does that mean they actually wanted to bomb the Pentagon? No - it's just a song title that sounded, in a purely rock n roll sense, cool. I wonder how much things could change in the next few months. Hopefully they won't. Hopefully they'll stay the same as they were on Sept 10th. Thanks for printing smart, eloquent responses.
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A worthy response to the sad events of the past few weeks and troubling times ahead. This, for me, is what elevates the internet above the traditional press and shows that AICN and the artists and subscribers can discuss contemporary issues. I only hope that posters can rise to the challenge. Freedom of speech and expression is something that we take lightly yet forget how hard won it is. Shortly after the attack on the WTC certain religious pundits (whos name I cant remeber) were pointing the finger at gays and lesbians for what happened. Something to do with gods displeasure. It seems like any chance moralists get to tighten the screws they will take it. In the UK our supposedly left of centre (ha!) government is poised to rush through identity cards for everyone, to help stop terrorism. How exactly this will stop anyone with the desire and motivation to do terrible acts is beyond me. Funnily enough our Labour party has always traditionally been more restrictive of free expression and secretive then the right in the UK. We live in one of the most secretive and censorus countrys in the west. I think for me all I see is bigots, racists, religious freaks and vested interests on both sides. What people should look at is who profits from all this. Arms manufacturers, commodities speculators and, probably at the moment, special effects companies. The people who suffer are pretty obvious. One more thing. Theres something strange about a society that is prepared to remove all trace of unfortunate events from its history. Its like never letting a child play in the dirt or fall over and scruff their knee. There was that girl who was stung by a wasp and died couse she had never built up any immunity to insect bites. Im probably not voicing this correctly but I think its important to remember that you have real emotions and not disney emotions. Closing your eyes to reality dosent make it dissapear but makes for a big surprise when it bites you on the ass.
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Great idea, great read...
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... that the ideas of censorship and people guessing what others will or won't want to see will go away in time. i can live with a temporary sensitivity to content given the extraordinary events, but this is once again an example of how people's priorities are out of whack. After the events of Sept. 11, I find it odd that there are people out there worried that someone can (GASP!) rent Die Hard, or (OH MY GOD!) see a movie that has the WTC in it. There are MUCH more important things to worry about now that what movies we will watch and what will be in them. It's encouraging to know there are plenty of filmmakers out there willing to stick to their visions and make what they want to make.
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Oct 01, 2001 6:22:15 AM CDT
I think Capricorn One was taken off the shelves because OJs a mu
by sundown
or they wanted to make room for the teletubbies. I agree with Norrington wholeheartedly. It's about the money, that's what its always about. And that isn't a bad thing regardless of what we've been trained to bark for.
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I just hope that all the morons that usually call Harry & Moriarty for biased idiots, fat-asses, morons, sell-outs, etc., etc., could just shut the fuck up for once and actually get something useful out of these articles...NUXX OUT.
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Oct 01, 2001 6:44:43 AM CDT
Am I the only one who wants the WTC to show up in "escapist" fil
by trollprincess
On September 11, I was unfortunate enough to be unemployed and therefore fixated on my TV all day long. The WTC is gone, and it collapsed in an ignorant, mindless way. Meanwhile, I go to the movies this weekend to escape all the terrorism news and the real world for a few hours, and, while watching a sneak preview of "Serendipity," am throroughly distracted by the lack of a World Trade Center on the New York skyline. Maybe I *like* seeing the WTC in movies. Maybe I'd *like* to be reminded that they exist, or give myself a few hours to pretend they still stand. Maybe I'd *like* to have a few hours to pretend that all those cruel yahoos who decided to base their opinion of Americans on the few of them they don't like are far, far away. Of course, like I said, maybe it's just me.
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Ok so the US foreign policy hasn't always been the right choice. But you're beginning to sound like left-wing writers in the UK's Guardian and New Statesman publications, who are trying to brainwash the general public into thinking that it's all America's fault, and that bond traders leaping from the World greed Centre, as it's now called, had it coming.
How can a country be held responsible for events over 10 years ago in relation to events which could not possibly be predicted ? The US was helping the Afgan rebels to stop the Soviet Union, which was a greater threat than a then non-existant Al-Queda ?
Bin Laden and Co's gripes stem from the US presence on Holy sites in Kuwait during the gulf war, especially secnes of female soldiers stripped to the waist wandering around these holy sites.
Not clever, but no-one could imagine that such scenes could create such hatred.
These terrorists also envy the US, because it is the largest and most powerful country ever.
The Roman empire was despised, as was the British. But the US is not an 'empire'. More often than not, it uses it's power as a force for good.
As for the decline of the west, the remarkable coalition of states that Bush has created, shows that the current world order is not about to collapse.
In fact, intruiging alliances have been formed. In history good things have come from bad. Europe wouldn't be so prosperous today if weren't for America's help with Marshall Plan.
The world shouldn't hate America, they should be grateful for it's positive presence and rally round it.
As for censorship, in it's extreme it is political correctness gone mad, which in itself is a form of facism, which is one of the evils we are fighting against.
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As I have been enjoying my bourbon (probably to a greater degree than usual) I have been reminded of an old curse I heard somewhere down the line, which goes something like "May you live in interesting times". Welcome to those times. (sip, sip, GULP!) And for the record, I want to be reminded of the WTC. Don't remove it from a damn thing, Hollywood!! What an insult it would be to those killed and maimed in the attack than to remove them from our collective conciousness. By burying the images of the WTC in the sand is like saying these people (and buildings) never exsisted and are inconsequential and therefore wiped from memory. Is that what we want? Not me, mister. And another thing, I want to see those towers rebuilt. Someone somewhere said they'd like to see them add an additional floor (112) and make that a memorial (in both towers). Someone even suggested that they rebuild the towers (outer shell and support structure only) and have that as a monument. I'm not too sure I like the sound of that idea, but the principle remains the same. They must be rebuilt, and on a grander scale. There needs to be a memorial, that's for sure. But not like in Oklahoma City. Diffrent circumstances. What they did in OKC is great and moving, but inappropriate for NYC. By rebuilding the towers we'll be sending a big FUCK YOU to all who would think that they can make us cower (and very inconsequentially not ruin the skyline in, say, A.I. ). So here's to living in now very interesting times, hopefully not the end of time and for the uninterrupted flow of bourbon to this great nation of ours (marijuana, too. Didja read that article in Roling Stone about pot growing in Eastern Kentucky? It's quite true.) And peace to you and yours. Now go suck down a shot of your favorite distilled beverage (Ezra Brooks 90 proof over ice is the writers choice, but if you have the dough try some Woodford Reserve...yummy!) or burn one (again, the writer suggests the strain William's Wonder, IF you can get a hold of any) and if you were personally touched by the attack remeber your loved one(s) and tell a favorite story or goof on them or whatever. Try to laugh a little. Remember them for who they were (and will always be) and try not to dwell on circumstance, at least as much as possible. With warmest regards from the great Commonwealth of Kentucky, Brian E. Smith...YOUR Kentucky Colonel.-----now for my two cents on where I live and what I fear... for those of you who don't know, my hometown of Louisville sits about 20 miles from Fort Knox (it's like a suburb of Louisville), 100 miles from the Paducah Gasseous Diffusion Plant (read-where all of the nation's plutonium is refined for nuclear bombs) and about 80-90 miles from the Bluegrass Army Depot, where great quantities of nerve gas and other lethal chemical agents are stored for "eventual destruction" (they keep telling us). Any of these sites would make a tremendous bull's-eye target for some lunatic (as a teenager I was sure the Russians would lay waste to any/all of the above, esp. the Paducah facility. If it were to be "hit" more land would become a radiological wasteland than could be imagined, on the order of hundreds of thousands of square miles.) So just because I'm here in the easternmost part of the midwest dosen't mean I don't feel like I'm not sitting under the gun. Quite the opposite. There is so much here that could be easily blasted (because as in OKC, we're "nobodys" or "hicks-in-the-sticks") that it has kept me awake some nights with the Fear. What is potentially more dreadful is the Fear & Loathing of armed guards on every corner, random roadblocks, national ID cards, armbands with your religion for all to see, camps for "Americans with suspicious ancestory" and, well, you get the picture. Turning this country into a military camp is no way to protect freedom. If that's the case then the terrorists have already won. They would have robbed us of our freedom. I support a greater sense of caution and the implementation of certian precautions (like putting a battery of Stinger missles or whatever at every nuclear facility in the country, that springs to mind) but let's not turn ourselves into what we abhor-a country run by fear. Fuck that! And finally I need to say what someone needs to say, and that is that the new "Enterprise" is a pretty good except for the insipid opening music. There, I said it and have no regrets (sip-sip-GULP!). Peace to you and where you live, again from the Commonwealth of Kentucky, Brian E.
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Rolling Stone, not Roling Stone, has a great piece on the marijuana growers in eastern Kentucky, "Enterprise" is a pretty good SHOW, and many thanks to Harry and those involved for terrific forums such as this. Nice piece guys. Keep 'em coming! And does anyone know where Irwin Allen is these days? I'd love to hear his take on current events...or is he a member of the Screenwriter's Guild-Heaven's branch?
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and who'd have thought that the screenwriter of Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3 would be so eloquent?
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This is possibly the most interesting and socially relevant project that Harry and his cohorts have ever tackled. When the entire entertainment industry is under attack and change is in the air, we need to know what the artists we love and respect think about the events of the last three weeks. How does this affect film as art (or even as escapist entertainment) in the past, present and future? This project may even warrant a book, and Harry has proven once and for all that he can write eloquently when he pauses from geek enthusiasm and takes the time to collect his thoughts. As a freelance journalist, I only wish I could be a part of this, because I'm fascinated with the responses so far. Thank you.
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Congratulations are in order for Harry, Moriarty, and the whole AICN family. This is the kind of stuff I've been wanting to hear from Hollywood since this happened. Real heart-and-soul stuff and not prepared statements or performances of their most pertinent song. This rings touchingly true and is quite possibly the best thing AICN has ever done. I'll diligently look forward to and wait for the rest.
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took the time to fill out the questionaire Harry and friends sent to you. As filmmakers it is important we give the audience what they want. But we must never forget that film and television is a medium that challenges, that prevokes, that demands to be watched and to be spoken of. It is after all a mirror reflection of who we are as human beings.
I feel terrible about what happened and I too want revenge. But censorship is not what we need. Die Hard made us beleive that a lone cop from Chicago could destroy terrorists. WE NEED THOSE BELIEFES NOW MORE THAN EVE. Do not take that away.
Email me if you agree or disagree.
alexpappas@yahoo.com
-dash101. -
Why remove the WTC from all these movies when it's constantly on every TV channel 24 hours a day? I think I would feel more hurt seeing it explode with innocents jumping to their deaths rather than seeing oul Spidey swinging about its walls... Really the media are all over this and analysing every single inch of this terror. I think the WTC should be left in the current movies it's being removed from. If I was a filmmaker I would NOT edit out a single shot just to appease the media hype. Fuck the media, they are sensationalising this event for their own means. Read Time.com today to understand why this event happened. ALL FILMMAKERS PLEASE HOLD BACK FROM GIVING INTO THE MASS HYPE BEING CREATED BY THE MEDIA...
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thought I'd open this up with a joke...ban censorship...hahhaa....er...ahem......ok...pullling movie trailers with the WTC, re-editing movies with the WTC and pulling movies out of the local Blockbuster is ridiculous....despite all your valiant efforts with the scissors, you can't unmake the fact that the building did exist....why re-edit spiderman?...for chrissakes...it was standing during filming, let it stay in the movie....pulling movies...well I don't know if they're really doing that or not...so far it seems like it's a rumor...hopefully it'll remain just that...but why the hell would anyone want to do that?...does anyone here remember the list of blacklisted songs?..i think it was from around the time of the vietnam war....songs like Puff-the magic dragon were deemed innapropriate....when i saw the list a few years ago, i just laughed at how outdated an idea it seemed to ban such harmless songs....but I can't laugh now....i guess when it comes down to it, the folks that control what we see and hear have alot more influence than we'd like to admit....let's face it...we live in a lowest common denominator/ design by test market age....and if the powers that be decide that we shouldn't see images of the WTC (except blowing up on good ol' bloody CNN)..then we won't....peace out to all you folks................for any who are interested, the best articles on the whole incident of 911, are at www.zeldman.com.......a designer in New York that's living through all of this right now....beautiful and haunting words....go read them now....(under "My glamorous life"
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This has the makings of a very important series of essays. If this is the quality that we can expect in the coming days then if there are any journalists or publishers who want to place them in a media that will not be considered 'geeky' (Sorry, but the 'net is still seen as a haven for the friendless). Get these views in print so that the moral minority, who don't read the net because its full of filth and not serious points of views of course, might get to see them and see that their arguements do not hold water in any way.
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Oct 01, 2001 9:36:17 AM CDT
This is the most thought provoking thing I have ever read on AIC
by xocxoc
I wrote one of the first widely circulated "Irony vs. Sincerity" essays. It got published in Jeffrey Wells' Hollywood Confidential column http://www.reel.com/reel.asp?node=movienews/confidential&pageid=18491 The truth is that in today's mutimedia culture, there is plenty of both irony and sincerity to go around. Frank Darabont's comments "uplift an audience with a positive message rather than bludgeon them with ugliness and nihilism" gave me a sudden urge to watch "Three Kings", one of the most ironic movies about US attitudes toward Islam in recent years. Its ultimate message was that Muslims are people too. But, it is also a movie that could be misunderstood in many different ways in today's post-WTC climate. Should "Three Kings" be censored? Studios are in it to make money, they are not going to release a movie or an image that will turn off audiences, so they will self-censor themselves. If the people that MAKE the movies want to change their movies, fine. But, it is not the job of people that WATCH the movies to censor movies for other WATCHERS. These are just some of the thoughts that came to mind reading this article, and I believe this is the most thought provoking thing I have ever read on AICN. Looking forward to part 2.
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I'm glad someone has had the nerve to stand up to the NY based news media's idea of 'what we should be feeling'. These people are parasites, & only cover what tittilates people, even if that's death. This new wave of ultra-pc that I see washing over Hollywood, wherer you're either a 'good American', or some kind of traitor, must be stopped in its tracks. We'll decide when we're over it, & what we want to see. I also really hope you sent the questions to Mr. Lucas, as I'm dying to know if he's going to let this event affect his vision for AOTC, a film that will be around 100 years from now. Thank you.
DTF -
I've been surfing this site since almost the beginning, but never really had much to say in the Talkback sections. I guess this amounts to my first "two cents". I was in the Pentagon on 9-11 about 50 yards above and to the left of the impact site. It has taken me about three weeks to get my life back in order to come and be interested in the latest scoop on movies and such. It just hasn't seemed all that important lately. But this piece from Harry and Moriarty was very well thought-out. One particular comment really hit home for me. Due to the imminent release of LOTR, I had started re-reading the trilogy and was half way through ROTK while riding the Metro to the Pentagon everyday. When we were quickly evacuating the building on 9-11, I left ROTK in my briefcase, presumably never to be seen again. We were finally let into our old offices this weekend were I was able to retrieve my briefcase and the book. I think that Jon Favreau nailed my feelings the last few weeks when he said "I feel like a confused Hobbit about to enter Mordor."
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Oct 01, 2001 9:41:11 AM CDT
I've posted this here before, and I'll probably post it again, b
by pallando blue
William Faulkner, Nobel Prize Speech, Stockholm, December 10, 1950: "I feel that this award was not made to me as a man, but to my work
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What now? Well, I've heard that the War itself is going to begin today or tomorrow... if that turns to be true, it is possible that terrorists may attack again before Sunday (it sounds logichal)... so everything could turn even worse. My two cents? US Government should ONLY support Afghan resistance against Thaliban... that wouldn't be taken as anti-islamism by muslim people. Ben Laden? I want justice, not an eye for an eye. Justice is to catch him ALIVE. To kill him is plainfully stupid... it is what he wants, to get killed by the USA. And Mr. Bush? He was doing a just fine job after the WTC attacks, but now... And by the way... don't you think that right now some people ARE WRITTING the WTC movie for a 2.004 release?
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First of all, great work Harry. This is one of the most thoughtful and worthwhile endeavors I've seen from this site in some time. This is a relevant discussion right now, and it's encouraging to see so many voices from the industry sharing their thoughts. ### I recently got around to starting my own site that deals with horror on DVD. It's been on the drawing board since February, but it was only this month that I actually started gathering content and putting it together. I debated launching it in the aftermath of September 11. Do we need horror movies right now? Should people like me be writing about them in that detached, critical voice, dissecting the general qualities of gore scenes and the success or failure of jokes involving severed heads? ###
My own personal answer is yes, in part because it's more important than ever for us to stand up for films, music, and literature that some find offensive, and in part because it represents who I am. I don't consider it part of a patriotic duty to "get back to normal" or a way of standing up to terrorists. It is simply self-expression, something that the artists who have contributed to this dialoge have dedicated their lives to. It is part of a choice that each of us must make individually: either to live in this new world in fear, keeping our opinions to ourselves and cowering in our homes with gas masks at the ready, or to carry on with our lives, perhaps a little more vigilantly and sensitively than before. ### I'll admit that I don't need Michael Myers to scare me anymore. I get scared every time I turn on CNN, and I've had nightmares far worse than anything Freddy could deliver in the last two weeks. That hasn't stopped me from spinning the horror DVDs, though. Indeed, there's something cathartic about sitting through a Fulci or Argento film. That horror is confined to the screen. It can be turned off with a click of the remote. That small bit of empowerment makes dealing with the larger horror a little easier. It's not for everyone, but it works for me. ### As I watch these movies, I'm compelled by a thought that I'm sure almost all of us share: the way we approach entertainment has changed. There's a new reaction provoked by certain songs and certain movies. While watching the Terminator the other night, I found myself thinking of Columbine and Edgewater Technology while I watched Arnold methodically kill a precinct's worth of police. Picasso's Guernica is a little more relevant now, and Blue Oyster Cult's "Don't Fear the Reaper" is a little more disturbing. ### Whether we like it or not, our vulnerabilites have been exposed and our mindset has been changed. We can't tune this one out or hope to avoid it by indulging in escapism. Like a terminal disease, it will be waiting for us when we reconnect with the outside world. That doesn't mean that we abandon entertainment or art, but it does mean that each of us must reevaluate what we consider to be entertaining. In the same way that some of us outgrow Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers, some of us will outgrow certain music and movies. Tastes change and evolve, but great works of art, be they paintings, films, songs, or sculpture, endure. Art has survived war, terrorism, and cultural upheaval in the past. It will do so again as long as there are artists willing to express themselves and an audience willing to listen. -
"my family were socialists...like most intellectuals".
Yeah right, tell that to the millions who died in Sibera.
I can see why Joe went after them, course now they can't stand the fact that they've been put on the backshelf for real heoroes and stars, firemen and policmen.
Somehow in the big picture, hollywood just doesn't matter. -
"These terrorists also envy the US, because it is the largest and most powerful country ever."" More often than not, it uses it's power as a force for good.""The world shouldn't hate America, they should be grateful for it's positive presence and rally round it.": YOU'RE REALLY IGNORANT, AREN'T YOU? People like you is dangerous. Get your head out of the hole and see the real world!
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In the begining God created the heavens and the earth.
And said, "This is good".
And then God made humans and they were made like God
in that they could also create and appreciate the beauty in existance
because they could connect with it and understand it and take pleasure in it.
And God said, "This is very good".
This is from the Bible.
The first thing that leads to extremism is ignorance.
I cannot speak for other religions, but as for Christian Extremists,
I can confidently conclude that they are ignorant of their own
religion.
According to the Bible God created the universe for the purpose of pleasure.
Then he makes humans, a creation that like God can themselves create and
appreciate and take pleasure in the beauty of existance.
Makes sense, all animals need and provide shelter for themselves, how many
want their shelters to look nice.
How many read books for pleasure.
How many make movies for pleasure.
How many sing songs, build statues, play with legos, dance with style, feel something
when they look at the sunset, give up anything to preserve these things.
We value beauty in it's spectrum of forms.
We get ideas in our heads to create things and do things and go places that we don't need
to survive... or maybe we do. Maybe like a fish out of water will drown, a human without
connection and creativity and beauty and meaning will... has... even killed itself.
Humans don't do good alone without connection and expression.
And God says that too... says... "it is not good for man to be alone".
Alone means what?.. nothing at all around?.. or no other people around...
And what is good about other people?... You can share with them. You can create and show
what you made. You can buy a cool pair of sunglasses and show them to someone who under
stands how you feel about them and shares the appreciation. You can tell someone how much
you love them, and they can tell you how much that means to them, and how much you do too.
I am not writing this to convert anybody to Christianity. I am writing this to say
that impeding creativity and expression and denying beauty and dismissing the value
of connecting to life is NOT what Christianity is about. It is about the opposite.
Life to the fullest, NOT NOT NOT religious practices to the extreme. I wish that
these extremists would read their BIBLE. But, then they wouldn't be ignorant extremists
then would they. And that would be a shame if they stopped fighting so they could live.
But, you know, God made the universe cause he hates life and beauty, it is just some
weird coincedence that it all came out so breathtakingly beautiful and even more of a
coincedence that I notice that it is.
Can't we all just... try to pay attention and think. Stop letting anyone else do it for us.
And as for the Religious Extremist leaders out there... where would we be without your
persistant laziness and inability to get a real job or just get it over with and become a
proffessional actor. No offense to actors intended, but at least you know you are being
entertained. If you all could just channel yourselves in ways that don't perpetuate people
living as lifeless as possible.
Anyway, sorry, had to get on a soap box. It makes me mad and sad to see oppression in any
form. I am a Christian. I don't go to church. I did go to seminary. But then I went and
had to start caring for people for real and realize that loving people didn't include
charging them for it and didn't include controlling them and didn't include being or
converting living dead.
Great job on this website! It kicks ass!! Can't wait for The Lord of the Rings!!!
Anton
One last thought... does anyone out there know how to automate Adobe Photoshop or any resources
on how to. I assume that some industry people will read these Talk Backs and maybe you know of
someone who knows. I am a computer programmer, I can automate it, but I know that there are
more efficient ways to do it but I just can't seem to locate resources with any practical detail.
Email me at: antonphd@yahoo.com if you know. I know it's a weird request, but I got into
programming because of watching the Discovery channel's movie magic show so I know you guys might
know something or someone. I've got nothing to offer in exchange, but appreciation. -
The rise of the military class? That is pretty offensive to me. What were you trying to imply? That all us military types are evil fascists bent on destruction? Please get a grip. Some of the finest people you will ever meet are in, or veterans of, the military. My personal favorites are Jimmy Carter and Jimmy Hendrix. But what do I know? Oh yeah, I've just been in for over ten years so I might know something. I would strongly caution you from basing your views about your military from bad science fiction and ignorant media outlets. I'm not saying we're perfect, but damn, we're not jack booted thugs either. I don't care what Chuck Heston says.
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Oct 01, 2001 11:03:11 AM CDT
I can't believe there are still people saying that viewers want
by isamudyson
And I think the industry should open its eyes, already. What movies have been renting the most these past 3 weeks? Die Hard, The Siege, Air Force One, Nostradamus...it says a lot about what people want to see, doesn't it? And what about this weekend's box-office? You have 2 films that came out this weekend, Zoolander and Don't Say A Word. Zoolander is a very, very light comedy, with loveable characters and fun jokes. Don't Say A Word is a very dark thriller, with tormented characters whose lives are torn apart. Zoolander was every analyst's favourite to garner the top spot. But look what happened! DSAW was number one at the b-o, easily surpassing Zoolander! How much more proof do we need? People don't want esacpism, they want to recognize themselves on the screen. And another thing, with all of these talks about removing the Twin Towers from films, Zoolander's shots of the towers were digitally removed, and DSAW's were not. What conclusions can you draw from that? I mean really! I think it's time to release Collateral Damage, I would bet you that everybody would run to the cinemas to see Schwarzie crack the neck of some jerk-ass terrorist. And I think that someone should start writing a good intelligent screenplay about what happened three weeks ago, before it's made into a cheap tv movie starring Bronson Pinchot in the role of that guy who charged the hijackers of his plane before it crashed in Pennsylvania (I forget his name, sorry).
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Oct 01, 2001 11:31:53 AM CDT
US is always caught in no win situations notes for Cifra and fla
by sundown
Lets put a couple of myths to bed. FIRST OFF I actually will provide proof for a change in these talkbacks. Below is an article that expresses the strength of the Islamic Fundamentalist in their people. This is nothing like when the Russians went in there. We aren't wiping out their religon and the people there know that no matter what the taliban says. They will join us eventually because we are their only hope. Now for Flapjack- your buddies the socialist were going in there with the sole purpose of wiping out their religon and every muslim will fight that as well they should, as well we should have supported it because communism was an evil stupid experiment that failed and stalin was a worse killer than hitler so you can take your 'overestimation of communisms evil" and move to China. Your ascertion that the muslims were right wing is misleading, the right wingers actually are trying to create ties to the west and their politics can't be boiled down like that and you know it. I won't even dwell on the anti semetic nature of your statement about the jews but it shows what type of stalinist you are. Especially by how much you hawk communism. Its downright frightening. THEY WILL NEVER GET PALESTINE THEY WILL HAVE TO KILL EVERY AMERICAN NOW BECAUSE THIS IS NOT HOW YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT. Fact is the Muslims were gonna be slaughtered and we backed whatever horse we could to stop it. But I suppose the Soviets are good guys for bombing Afghanistan to hell and we're the bad guys for helping them. You and Cifra suppose we must not repeat the mistakes of the past and let them govern themselves...well we did after 1991 and they ended up with a bunch of warlords. Did the possibility ever occur to your little socialist mind (flapjack) that there are no good guys? That if we let them govern themselves the result will be a theocracy or just mass violence because all of their leaders are evil to a degree? That we are the closest thing to good guys and their only hope? That maybe, just maybe you aren't smarter than the President the CIA the UN and the rest of the world and this situation is a little more complicated than you make it flapjack? So what would you have us do Cifra? we back out after this is over and let them govern themselves it can go to hell just like before with warlords and monster roaming the countryside? If we back the Northern Alliance and back other rebels as you say they can turn out to be as bad as the Taliban. People are evil lieing bastards so how do we know who is a good guy? And for once, just once, can we blame the people who are responsible for this mess? These people live like animals because a small faction has run the country into the ground lets blame them and the communist assholes that turned the place into hell by bombing it, not us for trying to help the people who live there. I leave with a small part of this article...
As he surveyed his new home yesterday, he looked harried. Some refugees have been in the camp for a year. Muhammad Nazar, an 80-year-old neighbour in the camp with a hoarse voice and receding gums, came as close as an Afghan does to pleading. "When are you going to bomb the Taliban? We are waiting and waiting."
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/01/wafg101.xml
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Oct 01, 2001 11:37:55 AM CDT
I wached the my Brazil DVD a week after the attack and it sent c
by tallscott
It has been my all time favrote movie now I dont think I can see it the same way agian. After reading your nice peice looks like im not the only one.
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Others in Hollywood may be urging tolerance in the wake of the terrorist
attacks, but gung-ho director John Milius is ready to see America kick some
butt.
Milius is the guy who fed Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry some of his immortal
lines ("You've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do
ya, punk?"). He also wrote "Apocalypse Now," and went on to direct such
testosteronefueled films as "Conan the Barbarian," "Farewell to the King" and
"Red Dawn."
When we reached him in Dutchess County, Milius was ready for questions about
how America should approach Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban.
"Historically, the last person to handle this region well was Genghis Khan,"
said Milius. "When they showed him the cities of what is now Afghanistan, he
said, 'I see nothing but pastures for my horses.' He was relentless."
Milius grants that Bin Laden is "a wily and dangerous opponent." He knows
that Afghan fighters are famed for their toughness. "But could the Afghanis
have taken Iwo Jima?" he says. "I don't think so."
Told that Richard Gere is working on an "anti-hate campaign," Milius growled,
"I hope he doesn't embarrass himself. That stuff is a load of crap. It
doesn't fly anymore.
"All this self-indulgent 'me' stuff from the '90s — the situational
ethics — have gone right out the window. People are going to have to
measure up."
Milius, 57, was rejected by the Army in his youth because of chronic asthma.
But during Operation Desert Storm, he flew to the Persian Gulf hoping to film
the conflict — "like John Huston in World War II." To his frustration,
that war ended shortly after he arrived.
"I want to offer my services again," he said.
He has no appetite for turning the Sept. 11 attacks into a feature film.
"What's bizarre is that [the attacks] resemble what we've seen in the
movies," said Milius, who has adapted to the screen two Tom Clancy
novels ("The Hunt for Red October" and "Clear and Present Danger").
"I don't want to be responsible for putting any more scenarios out there." -
This could be an excellent forum for those in the business to respond to this aspect of these tragedies openly and honestly, like this first group so obviously has. Without managing editors chopping thoughts into bites to fit page space; without publicists and handlers filtering any material that may be deemed unmarketable. Also, I'm impressed with the questions posed--to the point, unflinching and well-delivered. It'll be interesting to see not just the range of opinions, but the arguments and emotions behind them. Thanks fellas, you've put your site and current clout toward an excellent purpose. And thanks to all those who've offered their response.
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Why some people tend to think everybody is against them? Why some americans tend to think that if you are not american and you don't support the USA in EVERYTHING they do, then you are communist? Why, in the name of God? Look, SUNDOWN, I was born in a city which is 50% muslim, 40% christian, 9% jew and 1% hindu, so I know well how is muslim people (I had an Algerian room mate last year, for example). Did you read my post? What did I talk about? Sentences like "We're the most powerful" (the fact is that China is right now almost as dangerous as the USA: it doesn't need to be as powerful as you) and "The world should be thankful for us" (I suppose that you don't include, for example, the families of the disappeared people in latin-america (killed by dictatorships) or the palestinian refugees), show how stupid and/or ignorant is the people that say it. What is more, they make antiamericanism grow... it is not envy... it is FEAR. The rest of the world has its own tradition and culture and many countries FEAR losing them under "american way of life"... that's what happened in Persia in the late 70's and grew later in ALL the muslim world. And then, Ronald Reagan and George Bush even FED monsters like Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden... and later, those monsters bit the hands that fed them... so, why is still Saddam Hussein alive? A dangerous question, I suppose... it leads to another interesting questions... do you really think Mr. Bush wants to bring Ben Laden to a Justice Court?(He knows SO MUCH about the CIA... don't be surprised if Ben Laden is killed very, very soon), why so many people at the UN KNEW that something huge was going to happen in NY on September, 11th (one hour after the attacks, news in Spanish TV was that UN adviced that morning its employees in NY to avoid malls and crowded places)? Why didn't the FBI pay attention to advices from France, Israel and Germany, preventing from "some terrorists attacks in big cities"? Why two similar attacks where aborted in Madrid (Spain) in 1991 (Middle East peace conference) and Genova (Italy) this year (G-8 meeting)? This last one has an easy answer: both Spain and Italy has good relationships with arabic countries... All these statements have been published by important resources... I don't know if it is has been published in the USA, but check it out. And remember... it is easy to kill the messenger, instead of thinking twice about it.
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Oct 01, 2001 1:01:52 PM CDT
The Completely Inappropriate Film Festival: A Celebration of Art
by xocxoc
Last week we started hearing from the pacifist/isolationist crowd who believe that we should not go to war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Their arguments were that if we would just change our attitudes about Israel and Palestine, if we did not rely so much on Arabian oil, if we stopped our involvement in affairs of the Middle East, that the Terrorists would not have targeted us. This kind of talk is foolish. These Islamic Terrorists do not care about our policies toward Israel and the Middle East, THEY HATE US BECAUSE WE ARE NOT MUSLIM! The only way to appease these terrorists is to convert to Islam, to give up our freedoms. Anyone who says we can rationalize with these guys and avoid a war is demonstrating their own ignorance.
That was my attitude last week. This week, I keep hearing an ugly word "censorship" creeping into mainstream attitudes again. Websites are being hacked, videos which might seem insensitive are being taken off video store shelves. To do such things is giving into the wishes of these terrorists. So my attitude has changed. If the pacifist/isolationist crowd wants to say foolish things, I say let them. The day these "conscientious objectors" feel too scared to speak out is the day that terrorism has won.
I propose a way to head off some of this censorship talk before it actually takes hold: A Completely Inappropriate Film Festival. It would be filled with movies that are threatened to be pulled off shelves or changed due to content suddenly deemed insensitive. A few suggestions: Brazil, Three Kings, Fight Club, Godspell, Armageddon, Executive Decision, no doubt there are dozens of others. Such a film festival would be protested, and in fact that should be encouraged as well; the right to protest is also a basic freedom (Heck if I were in charge of such a festival, I would secretly organize the protests myself)
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We sent money to Afghanistan so it MUST have gone to the Taliban ERRRR Wrong Answer. It was humanitarian aid mostly FOOD for the starving. You know the ones the evil Americans didn't care abotu when we supported the crazies against the Russians never mind the FACT that they couldn't have wont hat war without everyone on their side because those people love their religon and most were fighting not just the fundamentalists but it sounds better the other way. Fact is all we did was aid the Taliban diplomatically until they failed to capture Kabel in 1996 and began turning crazy and then invited Bin Laden in. He gave them three million to finance a war and bought a country. To say we gave them the aid to fight a war on heroin is a gross misreprentation and simplification of facts where you jump to idiotic conclusions. Bin Laden made his money off of drugs. And I have many many many Jewish friends and they will never give up Israel and to say we should stop giving them aid is anti semetic and will lead to the death of Israel. That will never happen. Oh and from your anti capitalist statements your either a socialist a anarchist or just plain confused.
17 May 2001
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/sasia/afghan/text/17may01.html
Text: Powell Reveals $43 Million in New Aid to Afghans
(Says country on verge of famine)
Calling on the international community to "mobilize and respond generously to avert a looming humanitarian catastrophe" in Afghanistan as a result of drought and years of internecine warfare, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell announced May 17 that the U.S. is contributing an additional $43 million in new humanitarian assistance relief to Afghans.
The secretary spoke at a State Department press conference May 17 on the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan, saying that the new contribution brings total U.S. aid to Afghans so far this year to $124 million. Last year the U.S. contributed about $114 million in aid, making it the largest provider of humanitarian assistance to Afghans.
Powell emphasized that the aid is distributed through the UN and non-government organizations, and not to the Taliban or other warring Afghan factions. "It bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people and much to exacerbate it," he said.
Powell also emphasized that sanctions imposed on the Taliban for their support of terrorism do not have an impact on the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. "U.N. terrorism sanctions against the Taliban are 'smart' sanctions and do not hurt the Afghan people. Nor do these sanctions affect the flow of humanitarian assistance for Afghans," he said.
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You got some points, fella. The islamic terrorists hate even most of the muslims. You have to be as fanatic as they if you want them not to hate you. But, the palestinian issue is adding fuel to the fire, and Mr. Sharon is also to blame. As INFINITE FLAPJACK said, this is Bad Guy vs. Bad Guy. And everyone else is in the middle of the fight.
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Oct 01, 2001 2:09:02 PM CDT
I suppose all this means that CRUSADE now has even less of a cha
by cash bailey
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You can't simply agree or disagree with alterations to films based on events such as these. Its all about context. In Spiderman, a scene that was supposed to inspire awe now serves as a reminder of tragedy, war, etc. Because of what has happened, the audience's attention isn't focused in the right place. A filmmaker cannot run around waving the First Amendment and ignoring his responsibility to the audience. On the other hand, if someone were to erase the towers from background shots of a film, it would seem like an overreation. Its all about context. What does this scene do for the film? How will it make the audience feel?
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Who knew?
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Uh, FlapJack. How can you say that you never said we (the United States) deserved it. What exactly does (here comes a quote) "we now have to reap what we -
'We armed them so it's our fault', 'Communists were a bigger theat'. Blah, blah fucking blah. And once again many people are missing the point!!!! It doesnt matter what religion the Afgans are! It doesn't matter if Christian values are better or worst than Muslim ones. If there was no such thing as religion THIS WILL STILL HAVE HAPPENED! Why because if 9-11 proved one thing, it was how man could inflict pain to his fellow man. And lets not have this 'We are above them. We will be better than they are' bullshit! Thats crap. Remember those words when CNN start showing the pictures of starving Afgan children when we start bombing them!! And I speak now as an Englishman when I say that American attitudes to forgien policy are no better or no worst than ours have been in the past. We as a nation have killed thousands if not millions for the simple reason that we wanted THEIR land. Why? Because we could thats why! Why did Bin Laden do it? Because he could. No other reason. Oh, you argue as much as you want about how we may have forced them to this, but at the end of the day, they didn't have to do it. But they did. Here is the whole point of my beef with some of the more extremist views. All these views prove is that we as a race are no better than Bin Laden because he is no worst than us. If it served our purpose would we, in the west, kill thousands? 'Cos we would. We've done it before and we will do it again. We just delude ourselves with lofty ideals of why we do it. "Desert Storm was in responce to the invasion of Kuwait." Now, who here is going to defend that statement? No one will because its now blindingly obvious that Desert Storm was in responce to the price of our crude oil going up by $20 a barrel! Now how do I know that my arguement is a valid one. Dead easy. Because I want Bin Laden dead. I know its unethical. I know its wrong. Despite all that I believe about being good to my fellow man, I wish a man dead. And more than that I want to be the one that puts the bullet in his head. There will never be a greater evil in this world than what man will do against his fellow man. 9-11 was powerfull evidence of that. But we wont take any notice of this evidence or the evidence of what will come. Its simply human nature. But we also saw the flip side to that on 9-11. We saw the very best and the greatest in human nature. The firemen, policeman, doctors and nurses. People giving blood, shelter to those that had none. All what I saw and more that I know I cant have gave me the hope that maybe, just maybe this will be a turning point in humanitys history. That we will become better for this. "It is a dream I have...."
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realize that Iron Monkey ad is the most irritating thing on the web?
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What the fuck is wrong with you?
You can't undestand why the industry "buried it's head" and decided NOT to show images of the WTC?
Try being one of the few millions of people who LIVE in New York and who EXPERIENCED this tragedy. You obviously have no fucking idea what happened. I just so happened to be there. I just so happened to watch people get torn apart by falling glass. I watched people fall out of the towers and hit the ground. I watched those two buidlings crumble to the fucking ground killing everyone inside.
I agree that censorship is getting out of hand. I agree with the rest of your article. There is no reason to pull specific movies for violent content. But you must have some bit of idea why images of the WTC are not appropriate.
I happened to see the Spiderman trailer the day after Sep. 11th. I can't describe the images it brought back. It isn't that people want to pretend the buildings aren't there...people go to movies for the most part to escape...not to return to something so shocking and tragic. I have several friends who died in those buildings. I can only imagine what their fate was like, but I don't need Spiderman to remind me. I want to see Spiderman to see Spiderman.
If you can't understand that you're a helpless cause for a human being. -
Hello Colonel, I hope the bourbons sippin sweetly tonite. If you ever grace our shores you'll find a warm welcome on the ranch in Hackney. May you live in interesting times was one of three (chinese?) proverbs. The other one was 'may you come to the attention of the authorities'. I cant remember the other one. Probably may you listen to Max Bygreaves forever. A few points. bluelou_boyle has got it wrong about the guardian and the new statesman. I can only speack for the guardian as Ive never read the statesman. I dont think the Guardian is left wing, That would be the Socialist Worker. The Guardian is more center, liberal/common sense. It generally has a lot of writers wittering on about food and wine and clothes and bringing up babies and making sure you chose a good school for them. It does have some good writers and does wheel out John Pilger every now and again to keep its cred going (along with Nic Cohn). I'd sum it up as just about readable and eminently common sense if a little pedantic. What it is not though is brain washing. What is though is the Sun - run by Rupert Murdoch who has teams of people ensuring he pays the smallest amount of tax anywhere to anyone. An Australian who took USA nationality for what purpose? And who censors his east asian tv companies to butter up the repressive regime in China so he cen get his feet under the table there (next to Disney and Lucas). Then there is the Times (prop R Murdoch) a once mighty organ gone flaccid. A lap dog and along with the sun, a mothpiece for ruperts Sky channel). The rest of them (owned by among others canadian and irish proprietors and pornographers) are a pretty tired bunch. So yes the Guardian does show a leftish view (just). But as it is in a minority compared to the rest of the UK press im surprised i can put a sentance together without spouting right wing properganda! Covering religion... can I just ask what Jesus' position on money lenders? And what was the bit about camels and eyes of needles? As for America being envied? Wow man have you got a sharp haircut. Ever read Brought to Light? You have to be proud of the CIA bringing peace and crack to the streets of compton for the chance to squash a few democracies. Thats the funny thing really how the USA has interfeared and destabalised honest democracies all over the world for fifty years (including among others an Australian prime minister in the early 70's.)
Keep it up everyone. I liked the Faulkner quote. Zeorcorpse. welsh cheyenne. Cool mix. Im irish/yorkshire/yemeni. We are the good looking ones who will take over the world mate! The mulattos and half castes. Oh yeah Rodzilla. Get off your fukkin high horse. Who are you? Weegee? 'I only wish i could be part of this'. Sheesh!
Ps: whoever writes the book of this list for posterierty please check spelling and make sure it makes sense Im too tired at the mo Yahwn!. xxk pax -
This used to be my favorite site on the Internet. Now I can barely stand to log on each day because of all the fucking pop up ads!
I've put up with it until now but that pain in the ass Iron Monkey ad is intolerable.
I know you have to make a buck. Hell, I'm even in the advertising industry! But take it from me, there's a limit to the amount of shit people are willing to put up with. And a pissed off target audience is not a receptive target audience.
Enough is enough!!!!!
--
Sean -
I wouldn't mind the ad so much if it DIDN'T STAY ON MY SCREEN AND BLOCK MY FUCKING VIEW ONCE IT WAS OVER.
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I hate to disappoint everyone, but the suggestion that Elmer Fudd is the only suitable villain left is not workable. Fudd possesses a speech impediment, which makes him Policitally Incorrect. By the way, that Iron Monkey thing IS annoying.
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That pretty much sums up all this reflection on 9-11, in my opinion. Aside from a couple of good questions, Harry and Moriarity are too fixated on the so-called "censorship" issue surrounding the terrorist attacks. Events like this always bring about extreme, knee-jerk reactions, but in the end they are seen for what they are: the temporary victory of fear over reason. We simply have to understand that as being normal. We also have to understand that it won't last. Harry and Moriarity--let it go. Let the emotions play out. In time, the films will be released. The videos will be back on the shelves. People will regain their senses. Don't empower the forces of censorship by treating them as a legitimate threat in the wake of this tragedy, or worse, don't enlarge them by treating all moves of caution as censorship. As Frank Darabont said, a little sensitivity can't hurt. So I would advise you to stop the "nobody is standing up as an advocate" routine, which is the biggest load of bunk I've heard in a long time. We don't need an advocate, we need time. Unfortunately, during that time, some decisions will be made which will, in retrospect, be seen as extreme and unnecessary. So be it. Those decisions will be revoked and forgotten, because in the end they weren't true censorship. True censorship is far more insidious, far more evil than the knee-jerk reactions from Hollywood in the wake of 9-11. Save your ammunition for that.
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Oct 01, 2001 4:48:41 PM CDT
Congratulations Harry, Drew, the crew of AICN, you just raised t
by el duderino
I once considered AICN to be nothing more than amateur film gossip. The article you've posted today was more mature and thought out than anything I have seen from this site, and the media, thus far throughout these last two weeks. You didn't give us any bullshit claptrap claiming to know all the right answers and you didn't give us more of the same uninspired, patriotic brouhaha that the rest of the media has been recycling. I really respect you guys as a serious source of information now. Again, superb job, you've proven that you have more compassion and reason than most of the journalists out there.
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Firstly, congratulations to both Harry and Moriarty for dedicating themselves to opening this debate, and for giving us access to the thoughts of those who craft the art that we love/hate. I have only one point to make: whilst I can understand the motivation for removing the WTC from movies that are complete but have yet to be released (e.g. Spiderman), I do not agree with it at all. These stories were set in a time before this terrible tragedy occurred. The Spiderman story would be undoubtedly different if it took place in today's world. My point is, removing the WTC from films set in pre-9-11 days is akin to pretending they never existed. The WTC should stand proudly in the New York skyline. I'm not about to remove it from the poster above my desk, or from my collection of Spidey comics. The fact the sight of it carries such a strongly resonant feeling of sorrow is the reason it should be remembered, not wiped away and forgotten.
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There's no way to come out of this without looking like you were on the 'wrong side' at some point in the future.
Anyone with the 'right answer' should get bent. -
Just put a little 'in memory' of the thousands killed in the attack. All this removing of buildings and reshoots is just plain bullshit! It's done! It happened. It's now apart of our human history.
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The thing that seems to be forgotten is that film and the film making medium is not purely the domain of the US. While the events have been devestating and all hearts in the sympathetic world go out to the people of New York and Washington, censoring films that are and have been shown over the world is imposing imperial will over what the rest of the world see's, repressing the spirit of a medium which is multicultural and not just American. To censor a film set before the terrible events rediculous and the only film, if any, that should be removed, is the Seige, for its offensive look at nationalities of 'un-american' origin.
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sorry for the posting but ...
http://pilger.carlton.com/print/80081 -
thanks for being a human and at least acknowledging that other opinions may be valid and informed if different. Fact is I've been reading up on this bastard and this situation since the Cole. When I heard his plan to fly remote control planes with explosives into the G8 summit to kill all the worlds leaders I thought this guy must be like Dr. No. When you factor in his Opium and slave labor empire from the Sudan and the Marijuana fields his genius becomes evident. He uses drugs to kill us and then uses the money he makes off of it to kill us all over again. Flapjack you assume everyone has less knowledge than you just because you've arrived at an 'enlightened' conclusion which is of course paints us as the villain contrary to popular opinion which therefore must be right. That is a bad, bad assumption. The support you suppose we gave the Taliban is immaterial. The 43 million you say we gave them I have provided proof dated months before that we haven't. Where is your proof. Where are your statements backed up? You say the USSR and Russia gave the Afganis aid but thats bullcrap. We are the #1 provider of aid and I doubt they gave anything. Back up your opinions just once and acknowledge that you are wrong about that 43 million. Do they have stingers YES but not since 1991 have we given them to them and then it was a necessity to defeat the Soviets which were pretty much the second greatest evil to face this earth. I live in NY and have many Russian friends. DO you want horror stories about how they had there homes taken fromt hem and were sent to Siberia for next to nothing after battling the Germans. Face it life isn't so clear cut and we did what we had to do. I also recommend you read a little more on this from alternate views...maybe an Israeli book?
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___Well, the inevitable ugly discussion of censorship takes to the front once more, in light of the recent attacks. I had cruised through most of these opinions with little offense (I like how J.Schrow puts "God" in quotes, but not Allah...hmmm...that's weird.) and a snicker or two, having a personal bet that I wouldn't make it out of the article without reading the word "jingoism" (and hey what a shock that this mischaracterized word was not abscent among this lot). All in all however, it was worth it to read Paul Dini's post about artists being sensitive as to what's appropriate. In these chaotic times, when artists leap upon their high horses, for at least one in their number to be so level headed is enough to give me hope._________________________________Incidently, I'm not one to advocate the systematic transformation of this democracy into a police state. My sentiments are shared by such polarizing figures as Bob Barr and Maxine Waters (these two agreeing on ANYTHING is a sure sign these are indeed extraordinary times). However, I would stress that our worries are greater than offending public sensibilities or longer lines at the airport, of which neither makes a police state. We need to have a sense of perspective as to what's important to us. Artists rely on expression for their livelyhood so I can understand their concern, but they need remember that the reaction to the content of what you express is as important, regardless of whatever restrictions they may encounter.
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"Fan"tastic.____What I want to know, from all those who continue to shove the fact that we trained bin Laden down our throats (oh, please tell us again, we haven't heeeeaaaard it in the last ten minutes), is when the CIA or the American government read "This man will turn against you and kill thousands of your innocent people" in the magic 8 Ball and decided to go ahead and try it? We did what we could against the enemy as we knew it at the time. It has come to bite us on the collective ass. Does this mean we should say, "Oops, my bad" and forget about it? I don't much give a shit (vernacular intended) about why, unless it is to prevent future tragedies. We did it. We fucked up. We did the best we could at the time. Fuck Osama bin Laden and fuck the people who support him. He fucked up the worst of all.____Does anyone besides me think that (PB) has a tb'er name? I swear I've heard comments that could be attributed to him. Go, Elmer, Go.____Bee
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here is the jist for those too lazy-Nothing justified the murder of innocent people in America, and nothing justifies the murder of innocent people anywhere else. That is the unassailable truth in this surreal time. Those who contribute to the current propaganda that says there is no other way but war might reflect that they, too, are likely to end up with blood on their hands- oooohhh wow blah blah friggen blah THIS IS NOT NEW its this crap that got us here. I wonder what these people would have said during WWII. War isn't the way, lets make peace with Hitler. This person likes Milton quotes but I prefer British Prime Ministers "Peace in our Time" can any film geek name the importance of that quote?
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that I'm amazed at the seriousness of the Talkbacks these past few weeks. A lot of the posts I still can't agree with, but at least we're not beating ourselves silly over some movie rumor...further kudos to Harry and Moriarty over this project. Like it or not, Hollywood is part of the pulse of culture in the country, and its good to check on it directly right now.
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Oct 02, 2001 8:06:32 AM CDT
that article was written by a salon.com idiot and was shabbily r
by sundown
Fact http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175986-3,00.html "Stalled at the gates of Kabul, the Taliban found an enthusiastic new benefactor. Osama bin Laden, who had spent some of his family fortune to finance the anti-Soviet mujahedin, needed a new home after Sudan succumbed to U.S. blandishments to kick him out. In exchange for a haven in Afghanistan's switchback valleys and rugged passes, bin Laden offered the Taliban money and fighters. Afghan and Western sources say he gave $3 million that helped push the Taliban into control of the capital and the country in September 1996. " from a crappy Time magazine article that was poorly done and kissed Taliban ass because they were so happy to get an interview (READ BEHIND THE LINES!!!) now the Salon.com reject says- provided more than $3 billion to seven Afghans, helping create a hard-line Islamic Frankenstein from which the U.S. would later recoil. - MASSIVELY INACCURATE he didn't have that type of money until AFTER he got into the Opium trade. This is lazy reporting at its worst. They go on to say -Despite the fact that they shelter bin Laden, just four months ago the Taliban received $43 million from the United States to reward it for condemning opium growing as anti-Islamic. - which is COMPLETELY wrong. Read my article above. In may we KNEW they were not only NOT burning fields but Bin Laden was running the trade. That money went through the UN. The fact the totals are identical shows this idiot saw we sent 43 million in aid and made a stupid assumption. When you make an assumption you make an ass out of U and umption. All of this guys resources are poor and culled from articles I HAVE READ myself on the net that he manipulates to build his lame case. I can't believe you buy Bin Ladens line of shit. Did you read that ABC interview? The guy grovels like a dog he's so happy to have an interview. He compares Bin Laden to the roughriders! Bin Laden is an animal. Do you really subscribe to his belief that this is a zionist state? Have you read the insane stuff he said? I can't say I read that book but I notice you left this part out of your argument from your own article and misrepresented other info as well as took stuff at face value that was opinion that you made 'fact' like "The "Frontline" source denies that bin Laden received any aid or training from the CIA. But in any case, the so-called "Afghan Arabs," battle-hardened, often virulently anti-Western and fundamentalist mujahadeen, were to become a far bigger problem for the West than the futile imperialist graspings of the declining Soviet empire. Some "Afghan Arabs" went on to fight in Chechnya and Bosnia; others remained in Afghanistan; others dispersed throughout the world. " Lets analyze that point. WE NEVER AIDED HIM!!! ACCORDING TO THEIR SOURCE!!! But just because "Gary Kamiya is executive editor of Salon." says it, its true? The Soviet Union is a less threat than the terrorists? This guy is a fool!!! And he didn't do his homework which is worse. You aren't informed you are misinformed and whats worse is your belief that you are superior and everyone else is ignorant. We disagree NOT because you know more but because we have different beliefs. And once more for the 'realists' out there THEY WILL NEVER GET ISRAEL THEY WILL HAVE TO KILL US ALL NOW! And in fact there was evidence we were gonna support your buddies the Palestinians BEFORE this happened and now they are screwed. GOOD thats what happens when you resort to terror tactics.
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Unfortunately, the current crisis is degenerating into a "lets blame Israel"-fest, when in fact Osama bin Laden's main gripe was our presence in the Middle East during the Gulf War (which in itself was partially at the behest of Saudi Arabia). Although I have deep misgivings about Israel's backing of settlements and their over-the-top reactions (they should have used tear gas, not bullets, to calm down the Palestinians in the 80s), the Palestinians are no less responisble for their status in the world....indeed, as Sundown mentioned, the Bush administration was considering backing the creation of a Palestinian state before the Sept 11th attacks (see the NY Times); what the plan is now remains to be seen, although it has no doubt changed for the worse for the West Bank.
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Oct 02, 2001 8:48:43 AM CDT
thats right Zim if you look closely Bin Ladens goals aren't for
by sundown
he craves strife and a holky war so the various governments can be destableized and he can put in his regimes. That was all he ever wanted but if Palestine is appeased he loses a big rallying point that he has been using to get other Muslims on his side. In truth he didn't even care about US troops being near his holy places. His goal as he repeatedly stated is to do what was done to the Shah in Iran and oust various friendly goverments and install hardlines. Now the Saudis are friendly and he has stated he wants the same fate for them as foe the Shah and it is his HOME LAND so there is nothing more important to him then ripping down that government above all others and installing his own. Also isn't it curious how every government he takes over has massive money making potential? Afghanistan has Opium Sudan had weed and slaves...Saudi Arabia is one of the biggest suppliers of oil in the world with around 8% of the supply...he is a smart bastard!
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THE YOUNG AND THE GUTLESS
By ROD DREHER
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October 2, 2001 -- OUR enemies know what they believe.
They're willing to kill for it.
And, more importantly, they're willing to die for it.
Are the young men and women who may be called on to defend our civilization willing to make the same sacrifice?
Anecdotal information cannot conclusively answer that question - thank heavens.
If liberty had to depend on most of the young people I spoke to in Washington Square Park the other day, we'd all be answering to Osama by Christmas.
"I'm not big on war," says Patrick Mulryan, 21, an aspiring actor. "I'm gay, so I'm not big on the military."
Well, the Islamic extremists our military are preparing to attack are not big on gays.
In Afghanistan, Osama's Taliban supporters execute gays by crushing them under demolished walls.
Recent college graduate Philip Rosenbloom, 21, is also unwilling to put his life on the line to defend his country, which he says "to some extent, has been something of a bully."
NYU student Jonathan Chen, 20, thinks that war is wrong, wrong, wrong.
But as for terrorists, Chen insists that "we have to take care of them."
"We," but not "he"?
Does Chen mean that other men have to be willing to die to protect his freedom?
Yes. Some people are born for that purpose, he says.
"There are people who are more willing to fight, who have the mindset of killing people," Chen says. "Not everybody is meant to fight."
Chen has "hopes and dreams" of becoming a filmmaker, and he doesn't want to "endanger" them, he says.
Presumably, those brave firefighters who went to their deaths in those burning towers to save the lives of strangers had no hopes and dreams worthy of concern.
Perhaps, men and women who are willing to die to defend Chen's right to pursue his hopes and dreams have none themselves.
NYU student Justin Tables, 19, saw one of the towers collapse in front of his eyes.
Still, he is unwilling to risk his life to fight the terrorists because "this is all [America's] fault anyway."
Jason Toledo, 19, is the only draft-age man I can find who would be willing to die for his country in the coming war. He says he's not enthusiastic about fighting, but he would go if America called.
Toledo, an NYU student from Atlanta, says he's wondered a lot if Americans have the backbone to fight such a dedicated enemy. The terrorist-themed Bruce Willis film "The Siege" has been on his mind.
"There's a saying in that movie that the most committed wins. That's scary, because we're not about causes here. We're about individualism," he says.
Toledo cautions me not to take the young men in Washington Square as representative of the whole country.
"Man, we're in the Village. I don't know anyone who would go, even if there were a draft," he says.
Still, you have to figure that you could have gone into Washington Square Park in December 1941 and found plenty of liberal young men who were willing to go fight Tojo and Hitler, neither of whom had done what Osama bin Laden did: mount a sneak attack that murdered more than 6,000 in New York, live on TV.
That was then. This is now. Maybe the Muslim fanatics are right, and we in the free world have become decadent beyond all saving.
God help us. We may soon see.
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woopy doo one of a million and its littered with inconsistencies that I pointed out. Bin Laden gave 3 MILLION not Billion. The guy is a Salon.com reject and a poor, poor writer. Who checked the 'facts' in this article? No one, its crap news!!! Now go find some facts.
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Oct 02, 2001 10:25:43 AM CDT
keep quoting your one book and your one erroneous article but I
by sundown
"we could damage control this situation and bring the terrorists to justice without escalation" Umm How do you propose this? What magical way can we get these men quickly without escalating the situation? By asking 'pretty please with sugar on top'? How come you won't address the fact the ONE ARTICLE you quote has massive errors in it? Why won't you admit that and try and defend it? You just keep saying these are facts like a mindless robot over and over. You propose we give in and said we should stop aiding Israel. Do you think the result would be anything but the death of every Jew in the country regardless of cause? Finally I must return to the first question. You keep saying its our fault over and over like a robot. Is no blame to fall on the people who actually are crazy enough to fly planes into buildings? At some point isn't the criminal responsible regardless of the society that created him? I grew up in what I'm sure was a rougher neighborhood than any you've ever even been in and have friends in jail for murder yet I'm not a drug dealer or murderer. You say we will bomb Afghanistan accusing us of something we haven't even done! All the evidence points to us setting a coalition between the Shah and Northern Alliance and then overthrowing the Taliban and then using Special Forces to get Bin Laden. Where are the kudos for us not bombing already? At the least we are trying to check our targets. How come you don't talk about any of this or provide a solution beyond "we could damage control this situation and bring the terrorists to justice without escalation" which is simplistic and naive and offers no real depth into HOW we can do this.
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Oct 02, 2001 10:33:34 AM CDT
also a note on Edward Said and the truth about American Palestin
by sundown
I wonder why he hates the Jews and how his book is colored based on this part of his bio????--- In 1948, Said and his family were dispossessed from Palestine and settled in Cairo. He came to the United States to attend college and has lived in New York for many years. Because of his advocacy for Palestinian self-determination and his membership in the Palestine National Council, Said was not allowed to visit Palestine until several years ago. --- Now for a little truth about American Palestinian organizations like this---Extremist Islam's American Lobby
By Daniel Pipes
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 19, 2001
THE ASSAULT on New York and Washington last week could not have taken place
without a sophisticated infrastructure of agents operating inside the United
States who gathered information, planned, and then executed the four
hijackings. That infrastructure, in turn, could operate thanks in large part
to the protection provided by America's militant Islamic lobby.
The militant Islamic lobby impeded law enforcement's ability to devote
special attention to Middle Eastern passengers, a procedure that surely
would have caught the four suicide teams. The lobby also forestalled the
closing down of websites and the expulsion of foreigners associated with
terrorist organizations like Osama bin Ladin's.
Which raises a question: How could a lobby protecting violent extremists
acquire such influence? It has very carefully covered its tracks - saying
one thing in private and another in public. To see how this duality works,
consider the case of "American Muslims for Jerusalem."
This certainly appears to be a moderate organization. Founded in May 1999
and located near Capitol Hill, AMJ portrays itself as an innocent
"association dedicated to providing a Muslim perspective on the issue of
Jerusalem" and it movingly appeals for "a Jerusalem that symbolizes
religious tolerance and dialogue." AMJ notes "the profound attachment
Muslims have to Jerusalem" and reasonably calls for free access by all to
the city's religious sites. Only somewhat more assertively does it repeat
standard Palestinian rhetoric about the inadmissibility of land gained
through force, the imperative to stop the building of Jewish housing, and
the right of return for Palestinian refugees.
So tame is AMJ's public stance that it does not repeat the usual Palestinian
claim to Jerusalem being the capital of Palestine, much less does it deny
Jewish ties to Jerusalem.
Unfortunately, this public moderation hides a totally different private
discourse. At its closed events, AMJ reveals its true colors, purveying
precisely the kind of hate that might inspire a suicide hijacker.
The pattern was set at AMJ's first major event, a fundraising dinner in
November 1999, which one participant has described as "crudely anti-Jewish."
Speakers like Nihad Awad and Abdurahman Alamoudi vied with one another in
verbally assaulting the State of Israel and American Jews. In particular,
they spun an elaborate conspiracy theory about Jewish control of the United
States and Zionist brainwashing of American Christians.
Those Christians, AMJ speakers insisted, are now ready to rebel against this
alleged Jewish domination - except that they fear going public out of fright
of their Jewish "masters." Here Muslims have a crucial role in encouraging
Christians to rise up to end their subjugation. Only a united
Muslim-Christian front, led by Muslims, can break the supposed Zionist lock
on America.
The dinner's keynote speaker, Issa Nakhleh of the Arab Supreme Council for
Palestine (himself a Christian), proposed a specific scheme for achieving
this goal. By his (fanciful) calculations, the Israel lobby spends $20
million a year to buy members of Congress and have them impose the "Jewish"
message on Christians. Arabs and Muslims can easily do better, Nakhleh
suggested, by sending fundraising delegations to Saudi Arabia and the
emirates. "I am sure you will get $10 million from these two, and Iran will
give you $10 million," thereby surpassing the supposed pro-Israel funding.
(Never mind that it is illegal to lobby Congress with money that comes from
abroad).
The evening's excess of inaccuracy, misunderstanding, conspiracism,
fanaticism, and illegality is all the more noteworthy because American
Muslims for Jerusalem is no fringe outfit but a joint effort sponsored by
six of the most powerful American Islamic institutions (including those most
often invited to the White House and cited by the media). AMJ itself has won
signal victories lobbying such American corporations as Burger King and
Disney.
The covert radicalism of American Muslim organizations has two implications.
First, AMJ and its six sponsoring organizations must all be systematically
excluded and marginalized. Government and corporate policymakers should not
meet with them. The media should not quote them as authorities. Immigration
officials should study closely who they invite from abroad. Tax authorities
should scour their books for illegal transactions. Religious leaders should
exclude them from ecumenical events.
Second, moderate Muslim Americans need to organize themselves and repudiate
organizations like AMJ and its ilk. This task will likely become even more
urgent as those organizations' role in easing the way for last week's
terrorism is fully revealed.
Daniel Pipes, director of the Philadelphia-based Middle East Forum, can be
reached via www.DanielPipes.org
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Oct 02, 2001 12:04:41 PM CDT
The scariest part is 911 might have been a relatively cheap less
by smurfette
First off, it was awful. It was an atrocity. The human toll was staggering. That being said, we got off relatively easy. In the not too distant future, it will be a suitcase nuke and cities will be gone, not buildings. The death toll will be in the millions, not thousands. Perhaps now we can avert such atrocities. I agree with sundown. It is not a Desert Storm holdover, nor a Afgani-Russo war holdover, nor even a Zionist holdover. It is a Crusades holdover. There has been a resentment of the West since the power has shifted from East to West. Israel is hated primarily because it is a satellite of the West. The Gulf War had nothing to do with Israel (except for the scuds that were lobbed at her as a fuck you to America), it had to do with Iraq invading the West-friendly Kuwait. The bottom line is the East resents us for a myriad of reasons. They don't have the power to confront us directly, so they take cheap shots. These cheap shots will continue and get worse with technology. Our lesson is to be vigilant and ally in the face of underhanded terror with the rest of the civilized West-friendly nations of the world and confront those that are not. World War is not a bad thing if it brings about a greater good. The people of the nations we trounce will be happier for it in the long run. Look at Germany and Japan. I know, even in the short term, the women of Afganistan will rejoice at their returned freedom. You can't fight progress. The West will prevail.
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What better Patriotic Film about america and it's ideals? Warner Bros, don't drop the ball on this one.
Donate the proceeds to the Red Cross or the 911 funds.
Do the right thing. -
Thanks for doing this, Harry and Moriarty.
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First thing, this is what we needed here, letting the non-'celebrity' hollywood voices speak their minds. Glad to see it. On a semi-related note am I the only one who finds it odd that 'they' are claiming that seeing the WTC complete and undestroyed, is now seen as so offensive and traumatic, and no we can't be showing that to the public when they are trying to heal, etc, etc, but every freakin magazine has had the EXPLODING WTC on their covers?!? Even TV-f*cking GUIDE has a nice crisp cover photo of an exploding, burning WTC. Why oh why oh WHY is this not considered offensive, insensitive, traumatic, etc? Nobody complains unless we're talking about intact buildings... strange species are we...
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Let me first congratulate Harry and the professor. This is very stimulating and interesting. Thank you. Now, I must say, I agree with InfiniteFlapjack, totally. Those terrible attacks are not coming from nowhere. The hate towards the United States is not coming from nowhere...
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Take a look at RAMBO III and THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS. In these films, both Rambo and James Bond are shown fighting in Afghanistan alongside the mujahedin (Afghan rebels againsts the Soviets), who wound up being the Taliban government. In the mid-80s, they were the good guys because they were fighting the commies. Now they are the bad guys. Amazing how much can change in only 15 years.
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Originally Published October 11, 2000 by WorldNetDaily
Posted November 1, 2000
By Joseph Farah
If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right? Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing.
Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland? "Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem."
That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.
The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.
Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.
There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.
What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem.
Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct. I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites." Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.
So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.
The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?
So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.
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just a correction.someone said something about hizbolla belonging to bin laden.
That can NOT be true.i'd expect hell to freeze first.hizbollz are shea muslims.bin laden actually wants to kill all shea muslims and calls them infidels and says anyone who kills them goes to heaven and all that bullshit.
oh,and i don't recall hizbolla ever killing civilians.they are not terrorists and are resistence for the isreali occupaion.they just happen to be the toughest one because most are iranians and not arabs.they dont even have palastenians with them.(obviously for their cowardness,i'm from kuwait and i know those animals(palestinans) really well.they betrades when iraq invaded us after all that we did for them) -
I'm TOTALLY baffled why studios are removing the towers from films. I get a warm glow when I see those towers. That's the way they WERE -- that's the good stuff. That's when it existed, a city unto itself, a shining beacon into the sky. This is a good thing. It's good to be reminded of it, as it was.
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How about, instead of spending 22 million dollars to reshoot scenes from SpiderMan, they give the damn money to the victims and their families. At the beginning of the movie, they could put a disclaimer or something, saying that the money that would have gone to removing the towers, has instead gone to helping the families of victims.
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Oct 02, 2001 10:08:58 PM CDT
Stop the whining,The stupid towers will probably be in the DVD
by justice41
You people really are a whiny bunch aintcha?i think the studios are being real foolish by releasing all this news to a buncha clingy,emotional, amoral, cripples. You babies are not ready to handle this kind of news.Harry and the rest of these scoop sites heve done allya a diservice by spreading this news.They should have just done whatever they were gonna do and keep quiet about it.You guys really should be more worried about some nut detonating a bomb inside a theatre your at. I guess the Gravity of the situation hasn't sunk in yet. What will you all do when(and we know it's when not if) the next terrorist act is initiated? Hmmmm ,what are you gonna use to try and deny reality then? An israeli Soldier friend of mine told me last year about this, and I laughed at him and told him to shut up about killing people ,which he did as as a soldier in hiafa (sp) while we were in public. Now i think about what he said and I hope the second act he spoke about doesn't come true.
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To quote Morgoth ==== Other than the Allies stated objective of carpet and fire bombing Axis cities in WWII (a TOTAL war), the US and their Allies have never targeted civilians on purpose, as a matter of policy. ===== so all that Napalm never happened then! __________ May I also direct Cabron to http://www.truthbeknown.com/biblemyth.htm. To quote the first para: Deconstructing the walls of Jericho. Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it ======== I think its plain to see that all information is liable to be coloured by the cultural differences and experiences of the reader with an axe to grind. What worries me are all those who cant read or have access to a computer to argue the ins and outs of this. who are more concerned with where their next meal is coming from. Even as we speak refugees are pouring from Afghanistan in fear of what may happen. I dont quite see people people like Bin Liner Laden in my head. All I see are malnourished children who wont make it to 6 and definately wont be seeing the next star wars film. Yes someone took out the WTC. America needs to see beyond the kneejerk and ask why. Also the Israelis and palestinians need to sit down and talk. It is not going to go away.
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and felt that I was
at war against them." From Bin Laden himself. So what does this mean about Afghanistan and our involvement there? NOTHING AT ALL. Whether Bin Laden was in there or another country like Sudan he would be doing the same thing. What we did there is pretty irrelevant with regard to his feeling and he is the one that did it not the average Afghani as you LOVE to point out! And Bin Laden ISN'T like Cobra!?!?! Damn right, he is far worse! Even Cobra Commander
wasn't as evil or mindless in his destruction. Go here and learn about something other than the plight of the Palestinians http://www.mapinc.org/ccnews/v99/n359/a01.html?347 learn about the illegal drug fields and thousands of sex slaves that Bin Laden has made of African girls and BOYS!?!?! COBRA INDEED!!!! They were never so evil!!!! You like to focus on parts of my argument that don't expose yours for all its faults maintaining you are some soothsayer with facts we refuse to understand. Thats why I made that comment you are the typical snotty rich brat. We know everything you are selling but WE AIN'T BUYING. Bin Laden hated us LOOONG before Afghanistan. And as for the 'criminal occupation' I've had enough of that you neo nazi facist. I think you should take up with the Palestinians who are bravely trying to liberate "their" land by murdering innocents then wondering WHY the Israelis kill them wholesale. Maybe you should read the other article above that someone else posted about the origins of the Palestinians for a viewpoint from someone other than a Palestinian. Its one thing to believe propaganda in a democracy where it is contested but its another to believe the crap that Bin Ladens pedaling! The guy is a master criminal and is evil evil evil. Your so focused on the 'cause' and placing blame you fail to realize the reality of the situations. ONE Israel WILL NEVER FALL TO THE ARABS. TWO The bad guys are in Afghanistan and WE HAVE TO GET THEM NO MATTER WHAT GETS IN OUR WAY. End of story. And you can end your diatribes with God bless all you want but it still doesn't make you sound any less condescending.
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Oct 03, 2001 9:10:18 AM CDT
you still didn't answer the question "we could damage control th
by sundown
magic? And while you enjoy making fun of my point reagrding my school, you dance around the issue...why can't people rise above their envirorment? Why is every great Muslim leader who is normal killed by his own and replaced with a despot? Why are we to blame because they never stepped up? Why do you dance around these questions? You shouldn't be FLapjack but Artful Dodger.
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Oct 03, 2001 9:52:39 AM CDT
take a sedative? I can just go back and read some of your past '
by sundown
Not upset in the least. More amused than anything. Everytime you are slammed by reality you revert to the rhetoric you love so much to acuse the american press of using. Bin Ladens 'not evil' they aren't 'like cobra' and flipity flop like a jack - 'Bin Ladens a maniac' blah blah blah pick a viewpoint and keep it. You ARE saying its our fault but all the while not really saying anything or offering and real solution other than kill all the Jews and give them Palestine and it won't stop there anyway. I don't care how many Jews you have as 'friends' the theories and comments you are making echo those of madmen that wish for nothing more than the extermination of the Jews. The 'illegal occupation' as you love to call it is as legal as any government in the world. What is your solution to the end of the 'illegal occupation'? Is it as magical as how we get Bin Laden with ease? Those people will die with what you propose. You offer no solutions but spout off like and intellectual with 'controversial' views that you think make you original. You are not a unique snowflake. Afghanistan has been pissed on and out of the parties responsible we bare the LEAST blame...blame USSR for bombing the shit out of them (where is proof of that aid they gave? Yet another unanswered question) blame the leaders of Afghanistan for being lunatics...thats ALL of them and you blame us for leaving...when we weren't wanted after the war was over and where if we stayed YOU would have accused us of setting up a puppet government. You're big on placing blame but none of that matters since 5000 of OUR people are dead. And our governments MAIN responsibility is to them over everyone else in the world. Thats the point of having a government. So what grandiose delusion do you have to combat that fact? What are your trying to say? Its our fault? OK so what now? You've read a book on Afghanistan so that qualifies you more than anyone in power to lead. What do we do? What do your points have to do with reality?
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So your goal is to simply have a press conference where Bush whines and cries about how we made Bin Laden (which we didn't he hated us from birth and had money and troops and got most of his best training from Egytpian terrorists but who cares about facts...I'm not sane ooooh) and thats your big solution? Thats your goal? What will that accomplish other than making YOU feel better. That and ripping down Israel and doing God knows what with the people that live there now. Thats your plan? Through all of this other than 'admitting we made Bin Laden' you have had NO POINT to make. You offer no solution let alone a different course of action from what is happening. But maybe in your world logic isn't sane. Perhaps I shouldn't have questioned your background but in my experience its the best way to judge the rhetoric from the author as is the case with the Palestinian book you love so much. Perhaps you should read one from an Israeli author. I have also read your 'article' but more than that have read the sources he pulls from. It is inaccurate and lazy. Have you read the sources? Go read the ABC interview with Bin Laden to understand exactly what the anti semites like Bin Laden are saying and how similiar you sound to him.
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Crush your enemies! see them driven before you, and the lamentation of da women!
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NEO-NAZI AMERICANS
HAIL THE BUTCHERS
By BRAD HUNTER
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October 3, 2001 -- American neo-Nazis are praising Osama bin Laden in the wake of the horrific attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.
On Web sites and in interviews with The Post, some fringe groups are expressing sympathy - and even support - for the terrorists who snuffed out the lives of some 6,000 Americans.
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," said August Kreis, a spokesman for Sheriff's Posse Comitatus and Aryan Nations, from his compound in rural Pennsylvania.
Kreis, who spoke of "an ideological oneness" with the terrorists, has a Web site that attacks the federal government, Israel and Jews, and praises the "Islamic freedom fighters."
Billy Roper, of the National Alliance, echoes Kreis' rhetoric. In an e-mail to NA members, which he said was pirated by the anti-racist Southern Poverty Law Center, Roper wrote: "The enemy of our enemy is, for now at least, our friend.
"We may not want them marrying our daughter, just as they would not want us marrying theirs. We may not want them in our societies, just as they would not want us in theirs. But anyone willing to drive a plane into a building to kill Jews is all right by me. I wish our members had half as much testicular fortitude."
Roper said his e-mail was "stripped of context," noting "most of the people killed in the attack were whites, the very people the National Alliance are trying to reach out to."
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go here http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html#russia people die in every war even ones of 'good' vs 'evil' it is the nature of war. The 'good guy' Russians raped and slaughtered their way across a continent. We did evil things too. The Germans did evil and the Japanese commited atrocities that would make the Germans flinch to the Chinese. Innocent people die in war. Thats what happens when you give men weapons...yet there is no other way to stop an insane zelot bent on your destruction.
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Well, this is weird. Interesting, but weird. Whose side am I, finally? Sundown or Infinite Flapjack? Well, sorry, Sundown, but Infinity Flapjack is absolutely right. I know from a very good source: MY OWN EXPERIENCE. Back in 1998, I was working in Angola (for the Spanish Government, IN HUMANITARIAN AID), where a war was (is) going on, and I saw MARINES in the country, I even talked with one. It is an usual fact that military aid is disguised as "Humanitarian Aid" (remember, I worked in Humanitarian Aid affairs, so I KNOW VERY WELL WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT). That's what everybody in Europe knows that the USA did (and still does) with many countries and rebel armies (Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Afganistan resistance in the eighties, for example). I assume that is something that it is not published in the USA, for obvious reasons, but outside America it is something easy to check out. Infinite Flapjack backed correctly most of his points, some others didn't, and you - Sundown - backed with your information that - I regret to tell you - is not accurate. I encourage you to check out other sources, foreign sources in special, avoiding US or UK sources, which usually serve for the same porpouses. French, German, Italian or Spanish resources are usually more reliable at this moment, because they avoid any kind of censorship. And remember, we're all allies, but none of us is a saint... for example... Spain is a faithful ally, but the USA never seemed to care about the basque terrorism which has killed more than 800 people since 1967. Neither did the USA about the Irish IRA activities in american soil. Why haven't the USA aided two of its more faithful allies more often? What is more, the feeling of many, many people outside America is that something like this had to happen sooner or later... the surprise was that they made the attacks so huge. Even the US government today had admitted that they had that feeling, too. Infinite Flapjack is right in saying that American policies had comitted crimes (or aided to the dictators) in countries like Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, Panama, Iraq... You can check out two marvelous movies: "Salvador" and "Missing"... USSR was evil, certainly, but the USA are no saint, either. Which side am I? I'm an ally, don't doubt it... but I'm not dumb or blind. I agree in that we have to fight terrorism, but the bad fact is that the USA didn't care so much until 9-11 hit'em. Terrorism spread before in Spain, UK, France, Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Turkey... and the USA didn't react. Now this reminds me of how the USA entered WWII in 1941, after Pearl Harbor, and not in 1939 like the other allies (with the exception of the USSR) did... the monster was too big, then. Like now. I don't want to bother anyone, just to put some ugly facts in front of those who innocently thought that WE are the "good"... we're not good (we are feeding of the third world blood, aren't we?, wearing t-shirts made by children in Pakistan, for example)... we're only BETTER than Ben Laden. It is all like in that movie... "The Matrix"... living in the western world is living in a dream... the real world is the Third World, where 3/4 of the population of the Earth try everyday to survive (I repeat: I know it because I've lived in BOTH SIDES).
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Alot of this crap comes from the mouths of profoundly UNamerican idiots. These assholes regularly ship their productions to far away lands so their personal take is higher. As an american in the film biz (grip, electrician, IATSE member) I am wholeheartedly insulted by these "artists". They chant'USA!!USA! land of freedom and opportunity', yet they ship the opportunity to earn an honest living to Canada, Australia or any number of 'cheaper' locals. I and many of my peers in the biz love what we do, yet many of us may have to start considering other lines of work because the directors and producers regularly ship the money I would put into the US economy, to other countries. Why make a film like 'Chicago' in Canada and Australia? Why not film it in Chicago? GREED GREED These people need to support the country and the people in the country as much as they support the 'idea' of the great country which they live.
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It is clear that some of the talkbackers won't believe even the articles we can bring to you (I'm not going to translate or surf the web to bring those articles, do it for yourselves, if you want). And it is a sad fact that for every article I can bring, anyone one can bring another, so this could go on forever... I've better things to do than discuss forever. I've exposed my point of view, given some advices and backed with my own personal experience... I think there's nothing more I should do. You don't want to hear what's really all about? You prefer being puppets in the hands of the politicians? That's your choice, not mine. Now, live happily your dream, until another 9-11 wakes you again. This was Cifra2, really tired of this talkbalk.
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Some really good thinking by all your corespondents. This is superb stuff, and proves once and for all that AICN is far more than 'just' a film site. *** Infinite Flapjack: Western decline is far advanced, not 'just beginning' as you claim. However, so is the rest of the world. No young, strong and vigorous nations now exist to take over the reigns of the old order. The rise of Order in a Chaotic world is NOT the same as the rise of Fascism - or Communism for that matter. A single strong ruler can be benign as well as malevolent. The Divine Right of Democracy is just as big a fallacy as the Divine Right of kings. As for America having dirty hands - so does every other country in the world. Even my own England is not without stain or cause for shame. American misdeeds are no better or worse than anyone else's. Every country, tribe, or city-state has done whatever it felt it needed to do in order to survive since the dawn of time. Rightly or wrongly, they do all these dirty, horrible things so that people like you and I can live our lives in relative peace. That doesn't make them right, but tribal survival has always taken precedence over everything else. In tribes that HAVE survived anyway... *** Kentucky Colonel: I agree that the WTC should be rebuilt. That way the whole NY skyline is almost literally sticking two fingers up to terrorists everywhere. *** bluelou_boyle: I agree with much of what you wrote, but must take issue with two things. First, political correctness is a form of Fascism even in its mildest form. It is not mad, just evil. Secondly, America most certainly IS an empire. Any land mass of suitable size captured and held by force of arms is by definition an empire. *** ZeroCorpse: good post and well reasoned. Oh, and don't worry, you're not racist. Political correctness encourages its adherents to see 'isms' as a 'reason' before engaging rational thought, is all. If she hadn't accused you of racism it would have been sexism instead. You are so right about learning from history. But then, how many politicians in any country know ANY? Explains a lot, doesn't it... *** Cifra: Hussein is still alive because a weak Iraq would allow the growth of a much stronger Iran. Both are enemies of the West, but they hate each other more. As long as that is so, they produce a balance of power in the Middle East that works to the advantage of the West. *** Xocxoc: ask any decent Muslim and they will tell you that the Koran utterly condemns the murder of innocent people, and that no true Muslim would ever contemplate it. These terrorists are as much Muslims as the IRA are Catholics. *** MorGoth: unfortunately, there is no more a solution to the problems in the Middle East than there is in the Balkans. We are talking about centuries of unreasoning hatred backed up by atrocities on both sides. No kind of 'peace process' will convince either side that they should not kill each other. Very, very, sad - but true. As for Kosovo, the Allies deliberately bombed a television station, not only targetting civilians deliberately but also in direct contravention of the Geneva Convention which expressly forbids the deliberate targetting of the media. *** DrX: The Guardian is MOST DEFINITELY Left Wing. Always has been. Pretty fair analysis of the rest of the English papers though. *** Orson: I don't think most people are blaming religion, they are blaming lunatics who try to use religion as an excuse to do whatever they feel like. There is a big difference. *** Sundown: Your 'peace in our time' quote was spoken by British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, after what he thought was a peace treaty with Hitler that would prevent any war between Germany and Britain & her allies. Chamberlain was a good and honourable man who believed everyone else was too. In 1939 he learned otherwise, and, realising he could not properly lead his country in war, handed the reins to Churchill, who most definitely could. Your point, I suppose, is that some conflicts are unavoidable. *** InfiniteFlapjack (again): there can be no lasting pece in the Middle East as the people have hated each other since well before America was a gleam in Colombus' eye. Neither side are reasonable people forced into a conflict they do not want. Hamas and other Palestinian groups will not be satisfied until every Jew in the world is dead, and plenty of Jews feel the same way about the Palestinians. If the West would allow it, they would have started a war of mutual extermination long before now. *** Mascan: in WW2 the Serbs were on our side, the Croats fighting for the Nazis. Germany (or Prussia, anyway) was always Britain's strongest ally until WW1... History is replete with shifting alliances. *** Cabron: excellent post. Thanks for clarifying the whole Arab/Israeli thing. *** Everybody: the battle against terrorism is NOT a war. We are not fighting countries, we are fighting fanatical individuals. Indiscriminate killing of civilians will lead to MORE terrorist activity, not less.
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Oct 04, 2001 6:41:43 PM CDT
Hey GRIPMAN, check out MADE before you make such sweeping statem
by smurfette
Favreau put a big old American flag at the end of MADE with a caption reading "shot entirely in the USA." They scrounged and made that movie in America for $5 million (and in turn did not get paid themselves). All this before the flag became a cool trend. Do your homework. There are some good stars out there.
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Hey,
If you want a close view on the Talibans and what it's like for regular folks in Afghanistan, you might want to check out american author/journalist William T. Vollmanns account of his experiences there, which started in the early 80's when he hung out with the Mujahedins fighting the Soviets in the mountains.
Heres a piece on the Talibans he wrote for the New Yorker last year, titled "What do the afghan people think of the Taliban?":
http://home1.gte.net/csweet/taliban.htm
And here's a recent interview with Vollmann.
http://www.salon.com/books/int/2001/09/27/vollman/index.html
I think you'll find these interesting regardless of whose side you are on in this talkback. -
I have just watched a video filmed secretly in Afghanistan and just want to say that the Taliban should be wiped out as soon as possible. Its one of the saddest things ive ever seen. I cant belive the levels of poverty and desperation endured by the people of Afghanistan. The taliban are intent on wiping out all other forms of culture in their country. I suggest you go to the website mentioned in the header to see for yourself. The people who risked their life to smuggle out footage of public executions staged in the kabul soccer stadium are fantasticly brave. To quote the begining. +++++++ Saira Shah's journey into the heart of Afghanistan reveals a country of desperate poverty, much of it brought about by the deliberate policies of its fundamentalist Islamic government, the Taliban. Women are deprived not only of education, medicine and freedom, but often of the very means of survival.++++++ I still hold with what I said earlier. Something is only being done now that the shits hit the fan on your own doorstep. America, Europe and the UN should be held up as being complicit in allowing this to go on. Why they can turn their backs to it i'll never know. Unfortunately It looks like its going to be used as an excuse to restrict peoples freedoms and for the arms industry to rake it in again. meanwhile people starve and die.
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