Hi, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab...
Yeah, that’s right. It’s HELLBOY week, and Mr. Beaks has got some awesome coverage to share with you. He kicks it off today with a great interview with the film’s producers, guys who have worked tirelessly to let Guillermo make his version of the movie. There’s some great stuff in here, including some talk about WATCHMEN, so dig in...
Larry Gordon got his first producer credit in 1973 on the highly underrated DILLINGER, which also served as the feature filmmaking debut of John Milius. Gordon’s next major credit would be HARD TIMES, which introduced audiences to the spare, hard-nosed aesthetic of Walter Hill, with whom Gordon would go on to make two legitimate tough-guy classics: THE WARRIORS and 48 HRS. Throughout the 1980’s, Gordon would solidify his reputation as an action film maven with classics like PREADATOR and DIE HARD, but he would also develop a taste for gentler fare along the lines of THE ROCKETEER and FIELD OF DREAMS. After four decades of slugging it out in Hollywood, Gordon has helped shepherd to the screen the closest thing he’ll probably ever get to a career summation with HELLBOY, which combines those antithetical elements of rowdiness and tenderness.
Gordon production partner, Lloyd Levin, started with him on THE WRONG GUYS, and has helped guide him to hipper properties, the most notable being HELLBOY and the long anticipated WATCHMEN. Theirs is an interesting pairing, but a highly lucrative one, as well. Most importantly, if HELLBOY opens, they may have the clout with the studios to finally bring Alan Moore’s masterful graphic novel to the screen.
But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. The following is taken from a roundtable interview conducted last week at the Four Seasons. Many of the interviews I’ll be posting in the next week came from the same table, which is cool since we had an unusually astute group of journalists. Hope you enjoy the coverage.
Many producers frown on the online press, and try to kick them out (of junkets).
Gordon: That’s a stupid producer.
(Laughs.)
Levin: In this case, in particular, to be able to sit here and… look to the support, and show people that it’s been very helpful.
Was this one of those projects where, with the filmmaker’s passion, you take a leap of faith and say, “You love this. I’m going to trust you to--”
Gordon: Yes. We had the project a couple of years before Guillermo got involved, and once he got involved, it was, like, Lloyd, of course, immediately went to Guillermo’s side. Both of these guys would beat the crap out of me to get this thing set up. Guillermo… and this is very unusual, I’ve been doing this a long time. He’s right there with Peter Jackson, Sam Raimi, and closing in on George and Steven. This kid’s got everything. I don’t know how the film will do at the box office, but this kid is the real deal. He’s a real *movie* director.
I think he’s a visionary.
Gordon: He is.
And I think it will take off at the box office *because* of the boldness he brings to the material. Honestly, I liked this film a lot, and I knew nothing about HELLBOY before this film came out. I knew nothing about the comic book. Did you have any fears starting out that maybe it’s too much of a cult comic book?
Levin: Our attraction, initially, was based on the material itself, which really excited us. Despite the fact that Mike Mignola’s work is, if you know it, really impressive. He’s created an unbelievable character that I don’t think has ever been seen before in a movie. His insight into humanity is fascinating, his sense of humor is great, and, at the end of the day, it’s big monsters fighting big monsters. That sounds like the recipe for a brilliant, fun commercial movie.
It’s a monster movie, but there’s complexity in the character. Was that attractive to you at the beginning?
Levin: Absolutely. I think the thing we all came on to it with was that we loved the Mignola books. So, how do we be faithful with them in bringing them to the screen?
What’s the attraction for you two to do fantasy? You’ve done quite a bit over the years; why is the genre attractive to you?
The genre is attractive because the story is attractive. The character is attractive. I don’t think in terms of genres. A lot of people do in this town; they sell that way. When comic books work, you sell comic books; when baseball movies work, you sell baseball movies. That’s the way it is. I have to say that Lloyd – and we have another producer, Mike Richards, who owns Dark Horse Comics – they saw this before I did, they got it before I did, and their enthusiasm propelled me off of my ass and into action. Once Guillermo came on board, I was really… you know, as a producer, you kind of take on – if you’re an entrepreneur producer – you take on the challenge of getting someone you like, that has a piece of material you don’t despise… you want to help them get their movie made. Lloyd and I have been together a long time. He’s come up with many ideas that we brought to the screen that I would not have necessarily gotten behind, but I trust him. I want him to be happy, and I want Guillermo to be happy, and make myself happy along with them. I think it’s just a question of it was just a project we wanted to get made. What was really difficult about it was that… Guillermo wanted to make it with Ron Perlman. And you know studios, they don’t want Ron Perlman; they want movie stars. They don’t give a shit who’s writing the thing, they want a movie star. So, we would go to studios, and they’d say, “Wait a minute, can’t you do it with ‘X’? Can’t you do this with ‘Y’? Did you try ‘so-and-so’?” The challenge was to get a financier to make the movie the way Guillermo wanted to make it.
So no Ben Affleck?
Gordon (Laughs): I don’t have a comment.
Who were the other Hellboy choices? I’m curious.
Gordon: Well, not choices. You guys are all movie guys, think about who could play Hellboy.
Levin: We heard every name.
Gordon: We heard *every* name.
Including Ben Affleck. (Laughter.)
Levin: The thing is, Guillermo wanted to be very faithful to Mignola’s work. So, obviously, the casting of Hellboy is a big part of it. But we heard everything. “Does Hellboy have to be red? Does he have to have a tail? Does he have to have the horns?”
They had problems with the tail?
Levin: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Wherever we went, there were comments. “Does he have to be under makeup?”
Gordon: In today’s world, they want to know does Ray Charles have to be black.
Or blind?
Gordon: Or blind. Blind’s okay. White or black is another thing. But we could not get anyone to make the movie the way we wanted to make it, the way we envisioned it, the way Guillermo saw it, with the actors he wanted, and so forth. Everyone passed on it more than once. And Joe Roth finally saw it, and—
How did you persuade him that this was a risk worth taking?
Gordon: Well, first of all, he and I have known each other for many years, and have worked together before. But, still, that wouldn’t have done it. BLADE II had just come out, and he loved Guillermo’s work on it. That got him interested, and then the debate went on, and then he finally said, “If you can make it for a certain price, I’ll do it. I’ll put up the money.” And we were able to make it for that price. (Beaks’s note: $60 million.)
This is a town that thrives on mediocrity. How do you make a film like this that rises above that, and is original within a genre that is going to be commercially successful?
Gordon: Do you think we rose above it?
I think you probably did.
Gordon: I *know* we did; I just want to make sure everyone else thinks we did.
(There is general assent from the table that they did indeed succeed.)
So how do you do that?
Gordon: It’s a team effort, but the main thing is the director. The source material, Mignola’s comic, and then Guillermo’s script and direction. I mean, I didn’t direct the movie. He’s an incredible filmmaker, and once you get to know this guy… you know that he’s the real deal. I’ve been doing this a long time, I’ve worked with a lot of filmmakers, and you can tell every now and then when you hit someone who’s just *all film*. That’s the way Steven (Spielberg) was when I first met him.
Comic books seem to be much more successful as film properties than, say, video games. Why do you think audiences are more willing to flock to movies based on comic books, than movies based on other franchises?
Levin: I think it’s premature to make that comparison. There’s ninety, seventy-five years of comic book history to pull from, and we’re talking about fifteen years of video games. It’s all about story and character. LORD OF THE RINGS is from a book. It could’ve been a comic book, but… a good fantasy story—
Gordon: There’s another way to say that: if the right video game is there, it will make a great movie, and make a gigantic blockbuster. It’s just a question of whether they find the right game. And, by the way, it’s always about the right people to make the movie. I don’t care what the comic book is. If you look at BATMAN, I don’t know which one you liked or didn’t like, but One is better than the other, Two is “this”, Three is bad, and Four is… it just depends on who makes these damn things.
I really like where this fits into your body of work. You’ve got the real tough Walter Hill movies, then you’ve got real gentle, heartfelt FIELD OF DREAMS, and then you’ve got this, which is really the combination of the two. It’s a bruising movie with a heart. Do you see that at all? Did you think about that?
Gordon: I didn’t think about that, but I see it, because…
Levin: You said you originally wanted Charlie Bronson to play HELLBOY. (Laughter.)
Gordon: If Charlie would’ve played him, we would still be in Prague fighting with him. We’d still be there. “Charlie, you’ve got to put on that thing. I’m sorry.” The thing is: I don’t have a particular kind of project. Also, when you have people like Lloyd who work with you, and you work with guys like Mike Richardson and so forth, they are constantly coming at you with things that are maybe not your thing. You’ve got to trust your people, and you like your people, and usually when they’re passionate about something—
Levin: I think what Jeremy is trying to say is that maybe it’s more your thing than you’re willing to admit.
Gordon: Well, wait, wait… I can answer that very, very easily. Ron Perlman as Hellboy is Arnold in PREDATOR; he’s John McClane. He’s an action hero, an action lead. Hellboy is an action lead. When he says, “Okay, let me go in and say ‘hi’.” (Makes sound of gun being cocked.) That’s Bruce Willis. Ron as Hellboy, or Ron as Ron, is an action lead. Now, whether or not he’ll be as big of a star, he’s Sly, Bruce, Arnold… he’s one of those guys. That’s what Hellboy is. Hellboy is a costume version of all the action movies we’ve ever made.
I see the John McClane definitely.
Gordon: But Arnold, too. “I’ll be back,” or “I lied” when he drops the guy in COMMANDO. I mean, it’s the same character. Action movies are action movies.
Are you committed to a sequel?
Gordon: We’re gonna make a sequel. We’d love to make a sequel, but the box office will determine whether or not we make a sequel. It will not be us. The box office always determines whether there’s a sequel.
But you’re quite prepared if the box office dictates?
Gordon: We will be thrilled to do another one if the box office dictates.
What else are you working on?
Gordon (to Lloyd): Why don’t you talk about your pet?
Levin: We’re pushing forward on WATCHMEN.
Really? With David Hayter?
Levin: Yes.
Who’s going to be directing it?
Gordon: We’re not sure.
Are you going to be working with Alan Moore on it?
Levin and Gordon: If Alan Moore wants to work with us.
How does it look so far?
Levin: We’re very dedicated to doing Alan Moore justice.
But he’s been screwed in the movies pretty much, right?
Levin: He has.
The David Hayter draft was receiving a bit of heat. I’ve talked to people who really liked it. Are you sticking with that draft?
Levin and Gordon: Yes.
Okay.
Levin: It’s a great draft. He really cracked it.
Gordon: We’re trying to, and still working on, getting David Hayter a directing shot. It’s very difficult for a first time director. Difficult material, difficult budget.
It’s a big, big story.
Gordon: Yeah. That’s always tough to get that set up with a first time director.
How expensive will it be?
Gordon: I don’t know. We haven’t budgeted it.
Levin: It’s a big movie, but HELLBOY was $60 million, and it looks like $120 million.
That’s a fair price, but $60 million seems like an awful lot of money.
Gordon: Oh, my god. I would say we’re a third of the size of any movie opening this summer with visual effects. I would say the next movie to us would be $100 million.
VAN HELSING is expensive.
Gordon: They have movies that are $200 million this summer. So, we have a film that didn’t cost (that much), and I think you’ll all agree it looks pretty good.
Are you a big comic book fan?
Gordon (Pointing to Levin): Oh, believe me, he is.
(To Gordon:) You don’t seem like a comic book fan.
Gordon: I grew up on BATMAN, SUPERMAN, BLACKHAWK, CAPTAIN MARVEL, GREEN LANTERN, etc., etc. PLASTIC MAN.
Levin: That’s all good stuff.
Gordon: But I’m saying—
Levin: --we’ll do those--
Gordon: -- that’s when I stopped.
Guillermo was saying that for a short period there Hellboy was going to be a CG character, that the studio almost wanted the Hulk instead of using an actor.
Levin: I think that was thought about for a second.
He said “briefly”.
Gordon: Very briefly.
Levin: But you guys know Guillermo, he’s a real visceral, physical filmmaker. I don’t think that sort of thing appeals to him.
What was your opinion of HULK, if you saw it?
Gordon: Great.
(Pause, then laughter from the room.)
Were you an actor in a previous life?
Gordon: I’m an actor in *this* life.
With WATCHMEN… has Alan Moore expressed an interest in being involved? How close is this to happening?
Levin: My understanding is that Alan has read the script, and liked the script. I also want to say that if we were able to do this with David, he would be a great director for this. But we’ll see.
Gordon: It’s really premature. We’re just starting now to see if we can get this thing set up.
Is Alan Moore going to be more hands-on than he was with the last unmentionable adapataion?
Levin: I can’t speak for him.
Is there going to be a video game for HELLBOY?
Levin: We would really like to open the movie huge, announce the sequel, and then try to find a publisher to make the video game. I think it would be a great game. We’ve turned down a few offers to do a game. What we’re intent on is not rushing out a game that coincides day-and-date with the release of the movie – just another piece of marketing. If we’re going to a game, we want it to be a really great game. Just so it supports the franchise. I think Revolution has done a pretty good job with merchandising. There’s nothing crappy out there. Everything is good quality. The “Art of…” book is really good, the action figures are terrific…
If you had your choice of any comic book character, is there one that you’re dying to see done well (as a movie)?
Gordon: Are you talking to me. That’s tough, because I stopped a long ago, but I always wanted to see PLASTIC MAN.
They’re talking about making MANDRAKE THE MAGICIAN with Nick Cage.
And they’re bringing the campier characters around, like GREEN HORNET.
Gordon: We had GREEN HORNET for a long time.
What happened with that?
Gordon (laughs): We don’t want to discuss that.
You were developing that with Michel Gondry, right?
Gordon: We had that set up with George Clooney.
Levin: Yes. I feel like that’s a great movie I’d still like to see. He had some amazing ideas. So contemplate that as you watch ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF THE SPOTLESS MIND. He had some amazing ideas, but that’s one of those that just…
(To Lloyd:) But what about you? What comic book would you most like to make?
Levin: I gotta say that I think the time is now for WATCHMEN. I really love WATCHMEN, and I think it’s a really important movie to make now. We are also involved with another character that I adore, which is CONCRETE.
(To Gordon:) Does HELLBOY kind of remind you of what you started off doing? You started making these exploitation movies, but directed by people who were visionaries. This is sort of the same thing: a genre done by someone with vision.
Gordon: I guess you could say that, but AIP was a different ball of wax. We usually started with a marketing campaign, and then made a movie. I peaked in the movie business with my first movie job. It was more fun than running 20th Century Fox, let me tell you.
What was that first job?
Gordon: I worked for a company called American International Pictures, and we worked with Arkoff, Nicholson, Corman… I worked with all of those guys. It was fantastic.
What did it teach you about today’s Hollywood?
Gordon: It’s shit.
(Laughter.)
You worked with Jack Nicholson and with Corman on all of those Poe movies?
Gordon: THE TRIP, PSYCH-OUT… I worked on all of those.
You worked on DILLINGER, as well?
Gordon: Yeah.
What was Warren Oates like?
Gordon: Great. He was great. Warren Oates *was* John Dillinger. You looked at a picture of John Dillinger, and it looked exactly like Warren Oates. Exactly.
Is there any movement on DIE HARD 4?
Gordon: I keep hearing there is. I hope so. I’ll get a big check.
You won’t produce that?
Gordon: No, I’m out of DIE HARD. I did the first two, and that’s it. (Pause.) How about staying with HELLBOY, guys? Help us! We need help! We’ve got to beat WALKING TALL.
Levin: Has anyone here seen it?
No, they’re not screening it for us, which is a bad sign.
Gordon: But you know what? It still hurts. It’s a PG-13 movie. MGM saw fit to move on our date, at a *late* date, which is really stupid.
I think the kids know it’s not Joe Don Baker. For them, it’s Joe Don or bust.
Gordon: I love Joe Don Baker. Did you ever see a film called HARD TIMES?
Oh, yeah!
Gordon: You know, we had that written for Joe Don Baker.
Really?
Gordon: Yeah. He was supposed to play the guy. And on a lark, I sent it to Charlie Bronson, who was the biggest movie star in the world. And he said, “Let’s have a meeting.” Walter and I met with him, and he said, “Why do you think I’m tough enough to play this part? I’m not even a big guy.” You look at this guy, and he looks like he could tear a steel bar apart. We said, “You can do it, Charles.” But Joe Don Baker was great.
(Gordon then proceeded to share some stories about working with Bronson on HARD TIMES; however, at the end of the interview, he asked if we not print these recollections since Bronson recently died. Though I don’t think he shared anything damaging at all, I’ll honor Mr. Gordon’s request. Being the good reporters that we are, though, we managed to tie in the Bronson talk with HELLBOY.)
I’m curious, with Ron Perlman, who makes films in Europe, he has sort of an international appeal. It actually made me think of Bronson in a way because Bronson appealed to a variety of ethnic groups.
Gordon: That’s a very good point. Ron, in the right kind of not-leading-man-looks kind of role… that’s what made Charlie work. I mean, Charlie was the antithesis of what a movie star looked like when he became a movie star.
But now you couldn’t get away with that as much in terms of leading men, could you?
Gordon: I will tell you one thing: after forty-two years in this business, there are no rules. Don’t even think about that. Yes, tomorrow there could be a guy who’s scarred from the top of his head to the bottom, and somehow women will find him attractive and he’ll be a movie star.
Kinda like HELLBOY? We’ll find out in a week. The tracking is stronger every day. I think Revolution’s got a nice-sized hit on their hands.
I’ll be back next week with more HELLBOY interviews than legal in the most lawless third world nation.
Faithfully submitted,
Mr. Beaks
Excellent, man. I like Lloyd Levin a lot, and to his credit, even when we haven’t liked a film he’s worked on, he’s remained exactly the same approachable, friendly guy. His passion for the comic material he’s brought to the screen is unquestionable, and think about what he’s managed to get made so far... a FLAMING CARROT adaptation of sorts, Mignola, and now the end-all be-all Alan Moore novel. You certainly can’t accuse this guy of chasing the easy buck.
We’ll have more tomorrow...
"Moriarty" out.
